The Wang plan, or lack thereof
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jun 03, 2009 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Chien-Ming Wang has pitched eight innings over the last 12 days, nearly all in low-leverage situations.
Eventually, if not already, the arm strength he built up while rehabbing is going to start to fade. Wang can’t really throw an extended bullpen session in case he is needed in relief that night. Meanwhile the Yankees don’t have a day off until June 15, so there is no window to get him the work he needs.
I asked Wang the other day how many pitches he could throw if he was named as a starter. He estimated about 80. Then in a second start, he said, he could get to 100.
Throwing 30 or 40 pitches in two innings of relief doesn’t do him much good. For him, that’s just getting into a game.
Eventually, the Yankees are going to need Wang to start. Then, because they have miscast him as a reliever, he won’t be able to give them much. Or maybe his control will be off due to a lack of use. As each day passes, the situation gets worse for him.
There is no obvious answer to this. The knee-jerk move the Yankees made when they activated Wang is slowly undoing all the progress he made. Phil Hughes has pitched well enough to stay in the rotation. But Wang is an established front-end starter. A six-man rotation isn’t the solution as you want to get all you can out of CC Sabathia, A.J.Burnett and Andy Pettitte. You don’t mess up the routines of three players to accommodate one.
But at some point soon, the Yankees need to figure something out. Leaving Wang in the bullpen is accomplishing nothing more than putting him back in the same hole he was in the first place.
It’s disgraceful how Wang has been treated, even when he seems to have regained old form.
He was out of whack thanks to a mistake by the FO in not letting him work on his lower body, which they admitted.
The pitcher should not be paying the price.
Give him a start in place of Hughes, and if he does well, keep him in the rotation.
Phil can get his work in AAA and be called up when needed, which will happen at some point.
I honestly would like to see a 6 man rotation.
CC and AJ on regular rest, no matter what.
Wang and Pettitte on regular rest as often as possible.
Joba and Hughes pushed back or skipped as necessary to accomodate CC/AJ/Wang/Pettitte.
All this talk of Wangs and Hooters is making me blush….
Cashman, as usual, has butchered this situation.
Wang is going to be needed when Phil and Joba hit their innings limits.
If he is still out of whack thanks to not having regular work and the Yankees put pressure on him to perform in a starting role later in the season, it’s setting him up for failure.
Give the man a start, and soon. He’s more than earned it.
Why not just have a 6 man rotation temporarily? Inevitably someone will get hurt. In the mean time it will keep them all fresh, and limit Joba’s innings a bit.
“Cashman, as usual, has butchered this situation.”
“As usual” is a little harsh, but he clearly did not manage this particular situation well at all.
Things have a way of working themselves out, I’m not worried. If Wang has to sit in the pen for a few more weeks, so be it. Such is life.
Also for those even thinking of trading Wang, remember Andy won’t be around as soon as next year and it’s always smart for a team to have six major league ready starters.
Next year, if Pettitte hangs em up, you have CC, AJ, Joba, Hughes, and yes, Wang.
He’s an integral part of the team’s future success.
“If Wang has to sit in the pen for a few more weeks, so be it.”
Wang will go flaccid in the bullpen. He won’t gain length just sitting around twiddling a ball.
A six man rotation is absurd. The top three veterans would never tolerate it. Also over 90 games you are taking three starts from CC Sabathia and giving them to your sixth best starter. What kind of sense does that make.
This is not an easy situation and the front office certainly deserves most of the blame, but the bottom line is what makes the most sense for this team?
If they aren’t going to make a trade, then Hughes should go down and give Wang a chance to settle in. Only one of those two has won 19 games twice. I can’t see Hughes in the pen as a legit option.
What is with you guys talking about a 6 man rotation, why would the Yankees want Sabathia, Burnet or Pettite, throwing 1 game less through the rotation while all the other teams in the majors have their top pitchers going, it would be foolhardy to do such a thing.
Can’t they make up an injury and put him on the DL again? Then he can get his work in AAA.
Hey guys….I was hoping you could help me decide if I should drive down from Saratoga Springs for the game tonight or not. The weather forecast looks pretty bad. If it gets cancelled would they reschedule it for tomorrow?
Don’t hang it all on Cashman. The medical staff and trainers set the physical limitations, not Cashman. The early callup was a panic move, though and completely on the GM.
“Also for those even thinking of trading Wang, remember Andy won’t be around as soon as next year”
Also worth noting that his trade value has likely plummeted as a result of what’s transpired the past several months. He doesn’t get you much right now because nobody, and that might include the Yankees, knows where he’s at.
my prediction is that this will be hughes last start and Wang would slide into the rotation on Monday…I don’t think they want to start him in Boston….With Aceves as Joe’s favor of the week the pen will need a long man and as much as i hate to say this Hughes will get the job…I think until Burney is back Aceves is the 8th inning guy
Give Wang a couple of starts.
He performs, thrust him back into the rotation. Send Phil to AAA to keep him ready in case if injury.
If he continues to flounder, you still have Phil as a backup option. No harm in giving the man a chance to get his old job back.
Very strange situation – yet NYY keeps on winning. I suppose if it ain’t broke, you don’t fix it?
I like the 6-man with CC and AJ on regular rest. Keeps innings lower on Joba and Hughes.
“A six man rotation is absurd. The top three veterans would never tolerate it. Also over 90 games you are taking three starts from CC Sabathia and giving them to your sixth best starter. What kind of sense does that make.”
“What is with you guys talking about a 6 man rotation, why would the Yankees want Sabathia, Burnet or Pettite, throwing 1 game less through the rotation while all the other teams in the majors have their top pitchers going, it would be foolhardy to do such a thing.”
Do you people even read posts before responding?
In the end it will be Hughes that will be returned to SWB and the rotation of
Sabathia
Burnett
Pettitte
Wang
Chamberlain
will be utilized.
Let’s not forget it is Chien-Ming Wang’s own performance of the most utterly disastrous levels that created this situation. If he was even half decent in the start of the season, the Yankees wouldn’t have been leery about him and where he stands. He created the very situation through his own performance.
carrying over from the last thread:
This is a two-man operation which makes it seemingly difficult. But if he could find people to help him out, I wouldn’t be surprised.
Look at the whistle he used to tell Tex the ball was coming in on that homerun (the one where Tex’s eyes widen in disbelief). Then ever-so-subtle Alex is in the dugout using the “it worked to perfection” hand gesture.
Re: Sterling’s call. My mom grew up in postwar Japan, so I’ve always hated the call. Why does Sterling get a pass for it in this PC world we live in? I guess the Japanese sponsors don’t listen to the WCBS broadcast. Even they wouldn’t be able to put up with Sterling’s warning track homerun calls!
I’m glad Sterling screwed up last night. Maybe he’ll come up with something, you know, new and original. Because Alex is going to be around for a long time. On second thought, Sterling won’t be in the booth that long, will he?
_____________________________________________________
As for Wang, this is a topic that we could literally talk about all day.
The Yankees screwed up. And continue to compound the mistake. Didn’t Wang look close to his old form? Isn’t that what they wanted? Then stretch him out and begin the transition.
Now if Phil had another 8 inning shutout his last start, I could see where they’re going. But he didn’t. So they’re going to continue to let Wang wallow and atrophy in the pen? Another head-scratcher. But at least they’re keeping him on the five days schedule.
Pete, has Wang been doing any extended side sessions?
My favorite Francesa reaction to Joba’s great start in Cleveland was the classic, “Let’s see him do that, pitch eight strong innings, for each of his next seven starts. THEN I’ll admit that they shouldn’t touch him.” Hell, why not eight perfect games in a row?
Ground control to Major Tom
Your circuit’s dead, there’s something wrong
“Also for those even thinking of trading Wang, remember Andy won’t be around as soon as next year”
Exactly, like it has always been stated these things have a way of working themselves out, as the saying goes.
Look at the Dodgers with Manny and Juan Pierre, the Angels with Vladmir Guerrero and Gary Mathews Jr.
There is no reason for the Yankees to trade Wang or panic about OMG, what do we do, yikes the world is coming to an end. It is good to see Wang is looking sharper, now when he gets the opportunity back in the rotation once again, we will see if he steps up and does what we all thought he would do this season. In the worst case scenario if he doesn’t Hughes is around to be called upon.
No single player is more important than the team.
The team is doing well right now and there is no need to upset the apple cart.
If that requires Wang to be in the bullpen longer so be it. He will get his chance any way when the innings limits are reached for Joba and/or Hughes.
If Wang did not stink up the joint so badly in all the chances he got in the beginnign of the season, we won’t be talking about it.
Enough with this. Team success is more important than a single indivdual. He will get his chance and he has to wait for it.
“my prediction is that this will be hughes last start and Wang would slide into the rotation on Monday…I don’t think they want to start him in Boston….With Aceves as Joe’s favor of the week the pen will need a long man and as much as i hate to say this Hughes will get the job…I think until Burney is back Aceves is the 8th inning guy”
I get that feeling as well, what would throw a wrench in that is if Hughes pitches a sharp game in Boston, but we shall see what happenss.
“Let’s not forget it is Chien-Ming Wang’s own performance of the most utterly disastrous levels that created this situation.”
Sure, but let’s also not forget that Dr. Cashman instructed Wang not to do running and other work on his lower half. He’s already admitted to as much and acknowledges the error. Wang pitched badly, in large part, because he was not physically ready.
An established “front-end” starter? Hahaha…
Someone Else —- Yes I read your post and frankly the three categories of starts was so preposterous I decided to not focus on that. It is impossible to have a rotation where each pitcher or tandem has its own “rest” pattern.
Additionally both Pettite and Wang are rhythm pitchers who depend on routine. Sinkerballers/ground ball pitchers do not benefit from extra rest.
There’s a reason no team in the history of earth has tried your pitching plan.
I have been puzzled by this situation since Kevin mentioned it last night.
The Yanks have Hughes scheduled against Price for Fri night. Maybe if he puts up another poor start he goes back to Scranton?
Maybe they’re waiting for more Marte or Bruney to return?
Another wonderful reason to move JOBA TO THE PEN! We are really hurting Wang at this point and the move would allow Wang to get back on track and fix our biggest weakness. Joba pitched great the other night against a AAA lineup. Hughes dominated the Rangers in Arlington and needs to stay in the majors.
Joba to the pen solves all issues. Screw player development for now. Let’s win a world series!
“Do you people even read posts before responding?”
Thank goodness you don’t run the Yankees, so lets see you want to skip starters in the rotation, but keep CC and AJ on regular days. While moving around the rest of the guys to accommodate that mess of a concept of a 6 man rotation but CC and AJ pitching every 5 days. What logic is that, reading it didn’t change much guy.
Um, Chen:
He was second in the Cy Young voting, he won 19 games two years in a row and he started the first game of two playoff series. Over a two year span, something like three other starters in the game were more effective than he was.
Yeah, he’s a front-end starter.
m
Now if Phil had another 8 inning shutout his last start, I could see where they’re going. But he didn’t.
__
Why should one start be determinative one way or the other?
Hughes is probably the Yankees’ 3rd best starter. He needs to remain in the rotation.
I still don’t think there is any plan to have Wang replace Hughes anytime soon. But who knows. As far as those mocking Pete’s “front-end starter” comment, give me a break. Two years in a row of winning 19 games and well on his way to winning another 19 before getting injured, that’s what Wang is. Front-end. Hughes and Chamberlain are nowhere near the consistent pitcher that Wang is. He had his bumps but leaving Wang out in the bullpen is ridiculous. Send Hughes down, bring him up when somebody else gets hurt. Or skip Joba now and then so he doesn’t reach his innings cap by August.
Honestly what has Hughes done to get demoted? He has certainly pitched well enough to stay with the Yankees in my opinion. It is not like he has really hurt the team with his starts. Also, if the Yankees were to demote him how would that affect his confidence??
“Hughes is probably the Yankees’ 3rd best starter. He needs to remain in the rotation.”
I’m not sure I’d say that. If I had to rank them based on their performances this year (and no one asked me to):
CC
Joba
Andy
AJ/Hughes (I see a lot of similarities here)
–
long way down
–
CMW (but hopefully not for long)
I wouldn’t dismiss six starters out of hand.
Casey Stengel frequently used six starters, back in the four man rotation era. It wasn’t a strict 6 man rotation, it was more spotting pitchers in the right situations (a Steven Goldman column put this idea in my head), but it resulted in taking starts away from guys like Whitey Ford.
If Casey did it, and he was willing to lose starts from a pitcher of Whitey Ford quality, then you can’t say the idea has no merit. I know today’s baseball is more hidebound in some ways than in Casey’s day, but the point is to win games.
We have six pretty good starters. Maybe we could win more games if we used all of them.
Just tell Hughes that he’s done what we needed you to do and you will get another chance soon. Wang needs to get back in the rotation.
Well, somethin’s gotta give.
They have to give CMW a start, soon, to really be able to evaluate where he’s at. I think it makes sense that this start not be against the Red Sox, because the Red Sox have done well versus Wang. Perhaps right after that.
I don’t want Hughes in SWB, however, if Wang has returned to form, you’re not losing anything by replacing Hughes with Wang in the rotation. Hughes goes to SWB to continue to get regular work, every 5 days, in a rotation, working on specific things, refining his performance even more. There will be another time during the season when Hughes will be needed on the ML team.
No one is going to be 100% happy with what they do. But CMW does deserve a start to show where he’s really at. No one really knows right now. Yes, he’s done well out of the pen the last couple of times. But those are not long enough outings for any purpose.
Hughes demotion isnt really a demotion. He came up because Wang was hurt. Hughes will get his starts, raise his innings, and then the next time someone else needs to be replaced he will be ready. He was the 6th starter out of Spring Training. You can’t continue to use Wang the way you are using him. The longer this goes on, the more useless he becomes.
Richie,
IMO shutout performances are the reason why you should even think about squeezing out a pitcher with Wang’s career record. We’re not talking about an aging vet, or a retread from the rubbish heap. We’re talking about a guy who won 19 games in each of his last two healthy seasons. If he’s back to form, there’s no excuse for keeping him out of the rotation. No matter how well Hughes is pitching.
Yes, the goal is to win games (still possible if Hughes goes to Scranton). Yes, the goal is for Hughes to build innings (again, he can do that in Scranton). But we also need to get Wang back on track. Sooner than later would be ideal because if they’re any setbacks or issues, we can deal with them at a less critical juncture.
Hughes is no where near there 3rd best starter, and I love Hughes.
Leaving Wang in the bullpen is accomplishing nothing more than putting him back in the same hole he was in the first place.
agreed completely. cashman and co butchered this situation about as badly as possible. they’ve put themselves and wang in a virtually no-win situation.
however, the hole wang was in, he dug that for himself by coming out and looking like the worst pitcher in the game for three straight starts, and then insisting there was nothing wrong. that’s all on wang.
they yankees have certainly botched this but good, but wang did himself no favors.
There is no right answer here. Every team would love to have 6 starters that can produce. it should be the worst problem we have all year.
Unfortunately, it isnt our worst problem. Answer: 7th and 8th inning. I’m not suggesting Joba should be there forever. I am suggesting that he will reach an innings limit this year. He will have to sit at some point. He will most probably be in the bullpen in the postseason (because Andy, CC, AJ, and perhaps even Wang will get the 4 starts). Why not move him there for this year?
It gives us a great rotation, a dominant bullpen, and our best shot at winning a title.
Boy what a great problem to have. 6 major league starting pitchers on the team, healthy, and ready to take the ball.
Wang will get his chance to start in the next 2-3 weeks. For now he’s in the Pen. It is what it is…
Wang is likely going to pitch tonight. Andy’s back is not 100%; no way he goes more than 6. Then you line in up to backup Phil in his next start…
As long as he gets on the mound twice a week, he’ll be ready to start when either someone gets hurt or Phil falters…
If they move Wang in Phils spot after the next go around, I say they keep Phil with the Club to pitch out of the Pen in a controled way, just like Wang is now…
Wang is a veteran, Hughes has had some good starts, some bad starts, and some average starts. I think you need to give preference to Wang, give him 2 or 3 starts, and if he’s back to his old self, you go with him. Hughes will probably replace Andy next year, and now has good ML experience and confidence that he can do the job. If someone gets hurt, Hughes comes right back up. But Wang will just deteriorate in the pen, especially considering he doesn’t get regular work. Remember, when Wang was right the last few years, he’d go 8 innings without batting an eyelash, Hughes can’t give us that length on a consistent basis.
It was reported weeks ago that Hughes offered to go to the pen. But he doesn’t get the proper work there, just as Wang doesn’t get the proper work there. Unless either one was guaranteed spot starts, it’s a waste of their talents top put either of them in the bullpen for the season.
If they do go that route, Hughes, by virtue of being the younger, less experienced pitcher would be the one to send to the bullpen.
(But, again, I don’t think either one helps the Yankees or themselves very much out the bullpen.)
Just in case we forgot how bad Wang was
3.2 IP, 9 H, 7 ER
1 IP, 6 H, 8 ER
1.1 IP, 8 H, 8 ER
All I know is when Wang is inserted back into this rotation and he will be, he had better step up and keep the team in games, because his performances as those numbers showed were pathetic. That wasn’t just poor starts, they were dreadful.
I actually look forward to him starting again because he can’t possibly pitch that bad his next go round.
I think what this comes down to is who gives you a better chance to win with a good start. For the Yankees brain trust, the answer is still Phil Hughes.
I just don’t agree with it, Wang looked sharp in his last two appearances. But, I don’t run the Yankees.
We can all second guess it if Hughes is meh and they wait too long with Wang so that when he comes in its same ol crackers.
Evan I agree with that, but unfortuantely the organization does not and quite frankly I don’t think they know how to solve the mess they put themselves in by calling up Wang a bit early.
And for all those “development” guys out there – answer this question.
Would you rather have:
A) Joba and Wang in the rotation, Hughes in the minors, and an assortment of crap in middle relief?
or
B) Hughes and Wang in the rotation with Joba in the pen.
We all know eventually Hughes will hit a bumpy stretch (all young pitchers do) and they will send him down.
The difference between Hughes and Joba in the rotation is minimal. The difference between Joba and the middle relief now is tremendous. So go back and answer the question.
Pete – can we please get a poll up with my question above? If fans would prefer to have Hughes/Joba + Wang in pen, Joba/Wang + Hughes in minors, or Wang/Hughes + Joba in pen.
Thanks.
Yes, Wang is partially responsible. In that he couldn’t overcome weaknesses in his body.
But he’s done nothing but do what the Yankees asked. He rehabbed intensely. He’s showed that he can pitch without his best stuff. And he’s shown that his stuff is back.
What happened in April is no justification for any punitive moves now.
If Wang is ready, he should go back into the rotation. I can respect they want to protect him from Boston, but I’ll be disappointed if they don’t make the move soon after that.
Just shut up and pitch from the BP
As Cashman said…. Wang’s contract says baseball player, not starting pitcher.
“He will most probably be in the bullpen in the postseason (because Andy, CC, AJ, and perhaps even Wang will get the 4 starts). Why not move him there for this year?”
For someone who says “screw player development”, it’s no wonder you don’t understand why Joba needs to be starting THIS year to prepare him for a starter’s workload in the near future.
Thankfully people with your line of thinking don’t run the Yankees.
I just think it’s insane that this is even being discussed. Wang was the Yanks best pitcher and most consistent pitcher over the last three years. Cashman and the Yanks screwed up his recovery somehow by telling him not to exercise this legs and, according to Randy I, changing his release point. Now he’s making progress and they need to make room for him as a starter. Hughes can go. If Hughes won 19 games twice, in back-to-back seasons, would you be advocating for him to be a reliever after a few bad starts? I guarantee you that would not happen. For some reason, Wang is getting the shaft. I’m not saying I know more than team managers/coaches, but they should at least, at least, give Wang a plan on how they want to ease him back into a starting role instead of leaving him clueless in the bullpen.
“If Wang is ready, he should go back into the rotation. I can respect they want to protect him from Boston, but I’ll be disappointed if they don’t make the move soon after that.”
I also get the feeling that Wang will be returning to the rotation after that Boston series, just get the feeling the Yankees don’t want him pitching up there at this point in time. Even on Wang’s good days he seems to lag in Boston.
It’s pretty absurd that Wang is in the bullpen. If Santana (or any other ace) gets hurt, rehabs and comes back would he be relegated to the bullpen? No.
Wang needs to be starting ASAP. I’m a huge Hughes fan and I love watching him pitch but he’s simply not as good as Wang (yet). Hughes needs to go back to AAA so he can continue pitching on a regular schedule.
Here is a youtube video I took that shows off Montero’s power: 419 foot fly out :p missed a HR by 2 feet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxcmomQsMew
Joba has pitched 55 some odd innings this year, he won’t blow by his innings limit at this pace, if he goes to the pen, he won’t get near his limit and we’ll be in this situation next year.
I’m curious why no one on here is entertaining the possibility that maybe the Yankees aren’t telling us the whole story. All Girardi said was that “nothing’s changing right now”; that doesn’t mean anything.
“A) Joba and Wang in the rotation, Hughes in the minors, and an assortment of crap in middle relief?
or
B) Hughes and Wang in the rotation with Joba in the pen.”
You forgot option C. You know, the future, a time frame you might not be familiar with.
C) Joba and Phil reach their innings limit this year and is ready for full time duty next year. Pettitte retires. Rotation becomes CC, AJ, Wang, Joba, Hughes.
It’s not a one year plan. GM’s don’t think in one-year tones like some fans do.
Anyone see the forecast? No way tonight’s game gets played. 70% chance of T-storms from 4 PM through the night.
Antonio Bastardo = english nickname (Tony The Basterd)
What a badass
Hughes’ June scheduled starts are:
vs. Tampa Bay
@ Boston
vs. Washington
@ Florida
@ NY Mets
The logical thing would be to have Wang start tomorrow, and if he does well, send Hughes back to AAA for more seasoning. You could even keep Hughes around for another turn in the rotation, in case someone gets injured or Wang flails again. Despite all the criticism and the obvious fact that his first three starts this year were atrocious, Wang is a proven big league pitcher. Of course, the people who point to his failures against Cleveland in 07 are conveniently forgetting he was the only Yankee pitcher to win a game against Detroit in the 06 playoffs.
Sterling’s blunder from last night:
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.....id=4844189
he is OUT THERE. I’d chalk it up to hard living, but what the hell do I know?
Wang to the rotation
Joba becomes the closer
Rivera becomes the CF
Cabrera moves to RF
Swisher becomes setup man
Fixes all of our problems!
No, no and no to Joba in the pen. Just forget that he ever did that job. He’s more valuable as a starter, yes, even with the bullpen being a little “shaky” right now. You must exhaust all other options, and even then, I believe the ONLY thing that would necessitate that move is a situation where Mariano is not able to close.
If Wang is Wang, the most sensible move is to move Hughes back to SWB. It’s not a demotion – he’s the 6th starter, on call, just as he was. But it’s only fair to let Wang have the opportunity to show what he can do now.
Yankees really have no plan at all at this moment.
Maybe they can get away with it now, but how about post season? It’s much more intensive competition, who is going to be the 7/8th inning setup man?
The whole situation is just weird.
Im with Rob Neyer on this, put Hughes in the pen. It worked for Santana, Halliday when they came up.
“Antonio Bastardo = english nickname (Tony The Basterd)”
That’s what the Padres are calling him after last night.
Burnett has only pitched 13 innings in his last two starts and still gave up 3 runs. Pull him from the rotation. Totally unreliable.
“Maybe they can get away with it now, but how about post season? It’s much more intensive competition, who is going to be the 7/8th inning setup man?”
Joba, since he’ll have hit his innings limit by then.
He’ll be in the pen by the playoffs.
Easiest thing to do is to trade Wang for a stud OF prospect and reliever.
You put your best 5 pitchers who can get through a lineup more than once in your rotation.
Evan, Joba is their 4th best pitcher right now this season. You can not refute that.
The question is, who is their 5th best. Hughes or Wang? Based on past performance its Wang, based on this year its Hughes. At some point track record will catch up and it will be Wang. I don’t like waiting for Hughes to fall on his face to do that
All of the starting 5 have been pitching well over the last 20+ games.
If Phil Hughes pitches another quality game of 6+ innings in his next start, how can you take him out of the rotation? This team is on a roll and you don’t make changes now.
If Hughes next start doesn’t go so great then maybe Wang gets the next start.
Hughes stays with the team until they know Wang is OK and everyone is known to be healthy.
I don’t see Phil Hughes in AAA anytime soon…
Hughes to the bullpen is a bad idea. He’s missed tons of time with injury the past two seasons. He really needs to stay on a consistent schedule of starting games. Don’t forget, he has a similar innings limit as Joba. If he doesn’t reach that limit it will take that much longer for him to throw 200 innings in a year.
a 6th man rotation is crazy.
like someone pointed out.it means less starts for the better pitchers & the last thing you wan’t to do is getting our pitchers an extra day of rest only to take it away in the future.
to risky & it makes things more complex.
i’d like baseball to go to a 4 man rotation.
Wang in the BP
Hughes #4
Joba #5
“his contract saids baseball player, not starting pitcher.” – B.Cashman
Hughes is not as good as a healthy Wang, who’s done well in relief. Hughes out, Wang in.
is it possible that they don’t have confidence in wang yet?
b/c I sure as hell don’t. the last thing we need is another 1 inning start.
I agree he needs to be used more but I think he needs to show a little more at this level before getting a start. he got lucky in texas but looked good in cleveland. a few more 2-3 inning outings won’t hurt. hughes seems to be learning more and more each start. it would be tough to send him down.
“Evan, Joba is their 4th best pitcher right now this season. You can not refute that.”
He’s actually been the 2nd best pitcher so far this year.
Just in case we forgot how bad Wang was
3.2 IP, 9 H, 7 ER
1 IP, 6 H, 8 ER
1.1 IP, 8 H, 8 ER
thank you. i’d like those numbers included in every post about poor chien-ming wang. the yankees gave him three chances to prove he had any reason to face major league hitters and he got his a– handed to him every time out.
he then came out of the bullpen and gave up two runs in three innings.
he followed that with three scoreless innings last week.
the guy has been awful this year, but for the exception of THREE INNINGS. and the yankees are getting killed for being skeptical about his ability to regain his spot in the rotation. really?
i’m in complete agreement that bringing him up was an idiotic panic move by cashman, but being reticent to let him start a game is not. the guy was awful. just awful.
As for twice hitting Teixeira, Padilla said there was no intent behind either pitch. Each instance loaded the bases, and Padilla said he wouldn’t intentionally make things more difficult on himself.
The second time raised Teixeira’s ire. He told reporters that he has been hit by Padilla before, and because of Padilla as pitchers retaliated against Teixeira for batters Padilla plunked when the two were Rangers teammates.
“I think that is unfair,” Padilla said. “That’s stupid if he thinks that was an intentional pitch.”
Said Teixeira: “Unfortunately, that guy has been doing it his whole career. Every time I’ve faced him since [they were teammates], there seems to be balls near my head, near my body, and today I got hit twice. There’s really no reason for it.”
The Yankees added three more runs in the sixth against Warner Madrigal and have outscored the Rangers 35-13 in four games this season.
“They put their foot on our necks and didn’t let us breathe,” outfielder Marlon Byrd said. “We need to take a lesson from them. They put a beating on us. We have to come out tomorrow with a better game plan and execute for the whole game.”
http://www.star-telegram.com/2.....10981.html
Voodoo Chile June 3rd, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Sterling’s blunder from last night:
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.....id=4844189
he is OUT THERE. I’d chalk it up to hard living, but what the hell do I know?
===================================
Good lord Sterling. If I was in my car driving and heard that, I might have caused an accident
Regardless of what Andy says, he has some sort of issue with his back. We’ll find out if he can make it through his start tonight.
Isn’t there a possibility that they are waiting to see how Andy performs tonight? I think they will have a clearer role for Wang after tonight.
“If Hughes next start doesn’t go so great then maybe Wang gets the next start.
Hughes stays with the team until they know Wang is OK and everyone is known to be healthy.”
GI Joe said it’s going to take more than 1 bad start for Hughes to lose that spot.
“Easiest thing to do is to trade Wang for a stud OF prospect and reliever.”
He doesn’t have nearly that kind of value right now, so “easiest” is quite a stretch.
You know what? I don’t even see the problem with giving CC some extra rest. He was ridden hard for the last two seasons, and he collapsed in the playoffs. Maybe some extra rest will keep him going in the playoffs?
If you want Joba available in the playoffs (I do, if he keeps doing what he did vs. Cleveland), he’s going to have to be pushed backed and/or skipped from time to time.
And let’s face it, AJ’s been, what, the 4th best pitcher so far this year? He needs to get his curveball command back.
Wang was not healthy. Now he’s come to the bullpen and proved himself by doing quite well. Hughes has turned heads with some great starts, but he’ll get his chance next year with Pettite gone. If Wang is healthy, our best staff includes him.
where are people getting that cashman quote from?
Patirck, you can make a case for that for sure. But, based on the amount of innings pitched I’d put AJ and Andy ahead of him. All 3 have 5 quality starts in 10 starts. AJ now has 6.
Wouldn’t be surprising if Wang and the Yankees parted ways in 2010, seeing as how this whole thing has gone down.
“It’s not a one year plan.”
In what world has the NYY philosophy NOT been a “win this year” philosophy?
Jesus….Enough with the John sterling call. He screwed up. Let it go. People are so damned over sensitive and worried about political correctness.
“Mommy….He called me a name.”
hughes or joba will have to go.it is as simple as that.
send hughes down but tell him he will be back up in the pen soon & then in the rotation when joba has to go to the pen.
this will allow hughes to get his innings in & develope according to plan.
Yankees GM Brian Cashman told me that Chien Ming Wang is in the bullpen unless Joe Girardi decides to make a change. Cashman says that Wang shouldn’t have a problem because “his contract says baseball player,” not starter and he “is sporting a 20-something ERA,” adding “We didn’t put him in this situation.”
http://stations.espn.go.com/st.....st=4212846
Truer words have never been spoken
GreenBeret7, what was the Sterling call?
“Jonathan Papelbon, in this point in his career, is close to Mariano Rivera”.
::vomits::
“Joba and Phil reach their innings limit this year and is ready for full time duty next year. Pettitte retires. Rotation becomes CC, AJ, Wang, Joba, Hughes.”
Since when do the Yankees not care about THIS year? The Yankees want to win every year.
“Joba is their 4th best pitcher right now this season. You can not refute that.
The question is, who is their 5th best. Hughes or Wang?”
I am not refuting that. My point is there is a much greater gap between Joba and the bullpen guys than Joba to Wang/Hughes. Joba has potential to be a great pitcher. This season he is not a great pitcher. He has been good. He had one great start and a lot of mediocre ones where he couldnt get past the 5th or 6th inning.
Kasey: This quote?
http://stations.espn.go.com/st.....st=4212846
Yankees GM Brian Cashman told me that Chien Ming Wang is in the bullpen unless Joe Girardi decides to make a change. *Cashman says that Wang shouldn’t have a problem because “his contract says baseball player,” not starter* and he “is sporting a 20-something ERA,” adding “We didn’t put him in this situation.”
Alan Chang, Wang’s agent, told me, “[Wang's] not comfortable with it, but he’s a team player.”
bru , you have a good point about Joba. Hughe will get his chance later this year when Joba reaches his innings limit, which Hughes won’t reach since he (should) be in the minors.
however, the hole wang was in, he dug that for himself by coming out and looking like the worst pitcher in the game for three straight starts, and then insisting there was nothing wrong. that’s all on wang.”
kasey-
cashman instructed wang to do nothing all winter on his foot and lower body strength and then did nothing to measure wang’s physical strength in these body parts until he implode in his three starts.
i have little to add to what peter says. he pretty much says it all.
it appears the yankees are waiting for an injury to someone else in the rotation to make the decision for them rather than being decisive themselves.
i just find that very odd when wang has been one of the better pitchers in baseball.
i’m beginning to wonder if cashman thinks as long as hughes is holding his own it’s a way to lower wang’s bargaining position for a long term contract. that’s almost seems absurd because the yankees spend so much, but not pitching him will have the effect of lowering what wang can get next year in arbitration and in what he would get as a free agent after 2010.
of course it also lowers his trade value if cashman were going that route. nothing quite makes sense with wang when trying to figure what the yankees are thinking.
they don’t really have 6 good starters right now because we don’t know if wang is a good starter until he actually starts. i’d start him for two to three games to see what he has and have hughes be there in long relief in case he has to be taken out early or doesn’t throw many innings.
if wang is fine after two or three starts, i’d then send hughes to scranton until someone needs to be replaced for whatever reason. hughes would have his innings reduced for a few times through the rotation , but he needs that done at some point anyway.
the yankees need to find out where wang is at. starting him for two or three starts would certainly do that.
Jon Ringland, let’s see him keep it up for 14 years and then we’ll talk.
This is a great debate and as many have stated already a great problem to have.
Cash is not at fault here because if Wang had been ready from the start and pitched well we would not be having this argument.
If Hughes wasn’t ready and not pitching well we would not be having this argument. Cash is admonished IMO of any wrong doing.
Hughes and Jobas next few starts will dictate where this goes. Wang needs to sit in the pen for another 2 weeks until Hughes and Joba dictate the next move. If they both pitch well then you have 2 options.
1- Go 6 man rotation with CC,AJ and Pettitte pitching on regular rest and the other 3 filling in as the schedule dictates.
2- Move Joba back to pen sooner than later so we will have the best possible relief scenario as we will later in the year anyway.
We need to look to the future. Trade Andy to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp.
Don’t get me wrong, Joba deserves and should be in the rotation, imho. But, to be objective look at the stats. He has about 20 innings less pitched than AJ and Andy which taxes the bullpen more. He is STILL their 4th best starter by a landslide. You don’t put your 4th best pitcher in the BP, even by today’s standards.
that is ice cold from cashman. when did he turn into this dude? last year must have really taken its toll on him.
it’s gotta be killing wang that kei igawa and carl pavano evidently deserved more respect from cashman.
yikes. on the one hand, that’s true and an entertaining quote. on the other, really cash? after randy johnson, kei igawa and carl pavano, this is what wang deserves?
pretty lame. easy to see this one from either side. the yankees botched this, but wang put everyone in this position to begin with.
Dream trades, wouldn’t happen but …
Chein Meng Wang + Zac McCallister + Juan Miranda for Justin Upton + Tony Sanchez
Chien Meng Wang for Matt Kemp
Chien Meng Wang for Ryan Sweeney + Andrew Bailey
Hughes hasn’t exactly been great. Isn’t his ERA like 5?
didn’t Nick in SF settle the Yankees Wang issues last year? I’ll quote him here since he hasn’t posted yet: “Wang is not an ace!!”
Now that we’ve gotten that squared away, what’s going on over in the middle east?
“Unless either one was guaranteed spot starts, it’s a waste of their talents top put either of them in the bullpen for the season. ”
Actually, since they are so talented it makes more sense to have both in the majors than the minors, right? And if you can’t fit them both in the rotation, then one goes to the pen. Given their styles of pitching (and track record), a healthy CMW needs to start, and Hughes should be in the pen.
At first I dismissed the notion of putting a guy like Phil in the BP, but David Cone convinced me during an in-studio report. Phil wants to stay in the bigs; has the ability to get Ks; throwing a fastball, curve, occasional change would be suitable out of the pen, can go multiple innings and make the occassional spot start (ala Ramiro Mendoza). In fact, if used properly, he can still get to 150 innings or so this season in this role.
I don’t think it’s disgraceful how Wang has been treated. Wang started the season as one of the worst starting pitchers of all time and clearly wasn’t honest with the team in the spring and caused an early set back for the team and the pen which was taxed early and often.
He made his bed and the Yankees have every right to deploy him any way they want to.
If they think Phil is the better bet right now then go with Phil and let Wang continue to prove he’s not going to go out on the mound and spontaneously combust.
I’m with the Yankees on this one.
I fear sending Phil down or to the pen and handing Wang the spot and watching him revert to his early season issues and break all the good karma this team currently has, not to mention you risk messing with Hughes who has been good lately.
Someone will get injured or need an extra day and Wang will get his chance. Until then it’s not a tragedy that he’s in the pen.
DB – (officially panicked 5/13/09), he was taken out in the first of one start.
He’s doing better than A.J. IMHO.
“I think what this comes down to is who gives you a better chance to win with a good start. For the Yankees brain trust, the answer is still Phil Hughes.”
I think it’s obvious that this is what they think. Look at how the Yankees have handled Wang’s contract situation. They refused to give him a long-term deal after winning 19 games in 2007. Wang said, “They told me it’s not the time because for pitchers it’s hard to stay healthy.” (Maybe going 0-2 with a 19.06 ERA in the ALDS against the Indians had something to do with it). Then they go out and give CC and AJ long contracts…So much for injury concerns
Meanwhile, Phil Hughes has been absolutely dealing the past 3 starts and it’s clear the Yankees philosophically is to use these “power” type pitchers (see CC, AJ, Joba). It is especially more valuable playing in what is perceived as a bandbox, to limit contact.
Therefore I believe they would rather develop Hughes at the major league level right now, than to satisfy Wang, who they never really viewed as a long-term answer anyway in the grand scheme of things.
Pete, stop pretending to know more than the Yankee coaching staff, you are embarrassing yourself with your sensationalist nonsense.
It’s not like Hughes has locked it down, he’s been okay but nothing special. To me Wang should have his spot back already. He’s an ace, got injured but now he’s healthy. Why is he not in the rotation it makes no sense?
How well Hughes pitches is irrelevant. If he pitches a perfect game the next time around I’d still send him down.
How is a guy in the 8th inning more valuable than a starting pitcher?? I don’t understand how this concept is so difficult.
Lately, Wang in the bullpen has outpitched Hughes the starter.
If you’re waiting for a time for Wang to join the rotation, the time is now. Hughes out, Wang in. A HEALTHY WAng is better than Hughes, at least this year. Hughes will get his chance when Joba reaches his innings cap and when Pettite leaves.
I think this will work itself out. Maybe Andy’s back will act up tonight and Wang will be needed for multiple innings. Maybe a rainout tonight will result in a double-header that necessitates a 6th starter. Any of our pitchers could have a bad outing snd not last more than 4 or 5 innings. Wang will get opportunities to pitch longer stretches.
“Jon Ringland, let’s see him keep it up for 14 years and then we’ll talk.”
Exactly. Lets see him close out 3 more WS titles and post a sub 1 postseason ERA in the next 14 years. Freakin a$$clown.
David-Hopefully.
the yankees just don’t have faith in wang.
he is a contact pitcher.
hughes at least strikes guys out.
wang’s time will come.
will it be because of injuries,bad performance by hughes or joba reaching his innings limit?
hughes pitching well is making it hard.
girardi told hughes to make the decision hard & hughes is abiding.
“where are people getting that cashman quote from?”
Hmm, I forgot where I saw it. It is referenced here:
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....egs-12358/
Randy, I agree with you about Wang, you don’t know where he really is. The problem is that the Yanks don’t have the luxury of finding out. They are going with what is working. They are hoping that something happens that will force their hand on it, let’s just hope they aren’t holding their breath.
Worse case scenario: Hughes and Joba (for arguments sake)pitches well until his innings limit and there are no injuries to the starting 5. Wang regresses with not enough innings, comes into the rotation and can’t get length.
Doesn’t sound that bad when you put it out there..am I missing a worse case scenario?
Lot’s of closers start their careers lights out. Only one has kept it up, and it’s not Papelbum.
I’m having a hard time understanding the venom some have for Wang here.
Let’s look at this entire situation.
Wang suffered a VERY serious injury. He isn’t a doctor. He was cleared to leave ST with the team when it was CLEAR he wasn’t right. That’s his fault?
He gets smoked. He goes down to Tampa and it was AROD’s doctor, seperate from the team, who noticed that Wang could have weakness in his hip area, which was affecting his delivery.
That’s how they found out what the problem was.
Suppose Arod wasn’t rehabbing at the same time? ‘Ya think they would have found the problem? I don’t.
The guy rehabs, comes back, and has pitched well.
He is a starting pitcher. The second best starter on this staff.
When healthy, he makes the Yankees a better team.
If he is in the rotation, he brings enough quality innings to the table to give a poor bullpen less exposure. That’s a bad thing?
Instead of focusing your dislike to Wang, take a deep breath and ask yourself if the Yankees aren’t a better team with a guy of his calibur in the rotation.
“Lately, Wang in the bullpen has outpitched Hughes the starter.
If you’re waiting for a time for Wang to join the rotation, the time is now. Hughes out, Wang in.”
LOL no he hasn’t, he’s going against dead bats at that point. Hughes freaking nearly shut down 3 top hitting teams in Balt,Cle and Tex. It is what it is.
I really don’t care about leaving Wang in the bully as long as we keep winning games at an 80% clip like we have been doing for the last 20 games. Don’t mess with a proven recipe for success. Eventually, one of the starters will get banged up, and Wang will get his chance. Saying there is a lack of planning is just trying to incite controversy where there isn’t one. Wanger just needs to be ready when he gets his chance start, because eventually he will, and probably sooner than later.
What would happen if Wang comes back and doesn’t get the job done? They can’t just send him down? What do we do then?
“Pete, stop pretending to know more than the Yankee coaching staff, you are embarrassing yourself with your sensationalist nonsense.”
It’s a good point, nobody knows what they know. BUT those coaches should at least let Wang know what they are thinking and give him a plan to make it back into the rotation. From the way Wang has spoke about it, it seems like he has no clue. And that is not fair given Wang’s track record.
bru, since when has a five ERA been considered good?
Lately Wang has outpitched Hughes. Hughes gets his chance when Joba reaches the innings cap and next year when Pettite leaves.
“He is STILL their 4th best starter by a landslide. You don’t put your 4th best pitcher in the BP, even by today’s standards.”
You could make that argument based on innings pitched, but I get the feeling (and you’ll probably agree) that Joba will clearly be the teams 2nd best starter by the end of the year.
If he stays healthy, Joba won’t even sniff the BP this year. They’ll want an arm like his going in either game 2 or 3 of any playoff series.
Cash does not believe Wang can return to his old form so Yankees won’t need him. Pitching him in BP for 2-3 good inns will increase his trade value so Cash can trade him before Wang becomes FA in two years. The way Cash treated a former good pitcher (I did not say ACE< right) like Wang is a signal of “we don’t need you, so be yourself”; take it or leave it. Pathetic; I guess Cash and Yankees is betting on Wang’s loyalty.
You don’t give the guy at least one start, you’ll never know if he’s ready. Wang is miles better than Hughes, and even A.J. when he’s right.
What’s the logic behind using a possible #2 starter in the pen while leaving your #6 starter in the rotation?
“What would happen if Wang comes back and doesn’t get the job done? They can’t just send him down? What do we do then?”
Back in the pen or DL
I agree with most of what Randy l wrote above.
Except – I would think that Cashman got advice that the best course for Wang over the off-season would be to not put stress on his injury. I don’t think he was being willy-nilly in his instructions to Wang.
HOWEVER, after he had a not-so-good spring, Wang should have been evaluated and perhaps those 3 horrible outings don’t happen. Perhaps he’s put on the DL to begin the season and rehab/work things out in SWB or Tampa or wherever.
But, then, Hughes starts the season with the big club. And what happens if Hughes got off to a great start? You’d still be in this situation, I think.
Part of the problem right now is that I don’t think there is a team/player/manager/coach in baseball who likes to make big changes by choice when everything is clicking. Right now, for the Yankees, everything is clicking (for the most part). They are hot. It would be very easy to make the switch, Wang for Hughes, if they were ambling along at a .500 or so pace. While it’s not fair to Wang, it is how baseball has ALWAYS been. You play the hot hand and you don’t mess with winning ways. You’re talking about guys who will wear the same underwear for weeks if they’re winning/hitting/pitching well.
It’s really no one’s fault at this point. It just is.
Wang will get back in there. It will all get worked out. What can’t happen is for this entire situation to get personalized. Because it’s all logistics.
And the only thing I really blame the Yankees for in these circumstances is not letting Wang continue his rehab, and pulling him off the DL too soon as an overreaction.
SJ- People here just like to complain. It is the same guys who complain about Wang now that will be begging for the Yankees to put him back in the rotation once Phil Hughes has a poor outing.
Brandon Antonio Bastardo..don’t even think about it, against a bad hitting team (or at least not great) he went five and gave up four. Not good. Wang shut them down. Sorry, but the ERA since WAng joined the bullpen vs. Phil’s ERA is not comparable. I’m not sure of Wang’s bullpen ERA, but I’m sure it’s below five.
I don’t understand why the Yankees wouldn’t even put Wang in for 1 start. As of now Hughes supports an era of 5.45, and apart from 2 starts (4/28 @ Det and 5/25 @ Tex) he’s line is average at best and has only pitches past 6 innings once in all his starts. When Wang is healthy, he’s surely better than that.
vin, when he reaches his innings cap, you’ll see Hughes again (assuming Wang soon takes his spot).
“Wang is miles better than Hughes, and even A.J. when he’s right. ”
While Hughes is 22 he’s not miles better than him. When AJ is right Wang can’t sniff his jock strap.
G. Love :
nailed it imo.
the last thing the yankees wan’t to do is mess up the feeling of the team & screw with hughes.
the decision will be made just like pete said a few days ago,something along those lines.
why do we have to do anything?
let it play out.
wang will be fine.
he might have to be stretched out a bit but i would leave it alone.
i would get him more innings but girardi just does not trust him enough.
Don’t worry guys. You forget, A.J. is gonna get hurt anyway, there’s your solution.
If you take away Phil’s clunker against Baltimore (8 ER, 1.2 IP), then he’s had a 3.54 ERA in 6 starts. Not bad considering he’s pitched against some good hitting teams (Det, Bos, Tex, Bal)
If Wang stays patient, I might give him one start against the Marlins in Florida
If not, then the next date we’re looking at it after the All-Star break against Oakland
“Don’t worry guys. You forget, A.J. is gonna get hurt anyway, there’s your solution.”
Damn, I forgot about that!
“Easiest thing to do is to trade Wang for a stud OF prospect and reliever.”
You don’t get anywhere near that til he proves both healthy and effective. That means he in and starting games every 5 days. Not sure you get a stud OF prospect even if he’s healthy, but you’d get something of value.
Oh, and I also thing the Yankees bear responsibility for not being more proactive in the spring with Wang.
vin , unforunately he did have the clunker. That’s like saying if you take away his starts vs. Texas or Detroit.
On Sep. 25, 2010, Yankees v.s. Red Sox.
The last one game which decides if Yankees could win the wild card to play-off in AL.
Michael: Yes, on the mound is Chen-Ming Wang, who has achieved 19 wins for consecutive seasons for Yankess in previous year, and actually the pitcher in pinstripes with most wins for the past five years. He even ranked the second place among CY Award ballots in 06-07. After the season of 2009, Yankees traded him to Red Sox through a triangle deal. They offered him USD70 million for a seven-year contract?
John: Comparing with USD82.5 million five year fro AJ Burnett, Wang is really a good deal for Red Sox.
Michael: Sure it is. Yankees pays AJ 16 millions per year to get 14 wins each year, but Red sox only pays Wang 10 millions each year to get almost 20 wins. Even my 6 years old son can do the math and know this is really cheap.
John: He has already earned 19 wins this year, and we will find out if he can make it 20 wins tonight.
YES TV camera to Girardi’s face…
Girardi, holding in his arms with head and lying on the bench helplessly, and his painful expression is evident. With his eyes wide open, he witnessed the renowed Bronx Bombers are at a loss what to do, under CMW’s bowling heavy sinking fastball, with three up and down one inning after another.
Cheers and shouting are overwhelmed in Fenway Park.
Wang! Wang! Wang!
No one can hit it when you are on!!
Wang! Wang! Wang!
You are making them looked so deadly wrong!!
Interviews after the game
Wang: It’s just a game, and I just pitch.
Terry Francona: You can be rest assured when Wang is on. I don’t need to think much when Wang is pitching. However, the grass here might need some work because it got shelled everywhere.
Girardi almost crying..: When those sinkers are as heavy as rocks?for god’s sake, there are really not much you can do. Honestly, Hughes was not that bad. he only allowed 4 runs in 5 innings. Unfortunately, he was facing Wang.
A-Rod shamed with anger: I got 0 for 5 tonight, but I will hit it better next year.
Damon with frustration all over the face: How do I feel? I used to work with this sinker guy for more than 3 years. I have told you so many times this Wanger is good!
Hughes fatigued with quite sorry: I think Wang is still a little bit angry about me for what happened last year….
Cashman in bloodless poker face: Yes, I know I need to find a new job.
If they DO use WAng in the bullpen, at least give him big innings. Why not? Our bullpen is awful anyway.
I suspect the Wang issue may resolve itself if tonight’s game is rained out and we have a day-night doubleheader tomorrow. We then will need an additional pitcher next week and happen to have one on board.
Doreen,
No question, no manager wants to rock the boat when things are going well.
The problem in this instance is, Wang in the bullpen in essence ties up a bullpen spot because he can’t be used as a traditional reliever.
Its the Yankees, and not Wang’s fault, they put themselves in this quandry.
Personally, I would slot Wang in to start Monday against Tampa and move everybody back a day. If he doesn’t pitch well, no harm, no foul. It just gives the other guys a break for a day.
If he pitches well, then you have the “good” problem Girardi wants to have. It would mean that Wang is ready to assume his spot back in the rotation again and you decide who leaves the rotation.
Just keeping him in limbo does nothing for the team or Wang. In fact, it weakens the team because they are playing shorthanded in the pen.
This team, and no other team for that matter, is going to continue to play .800 baseball the rest of the way.
Its getting close to the time where they have to give him a start and see where he is at. Monday is as good a day as any.
SJ,
I agree with you to a point but decision makers in Yankee land don’t trust Wang to give him his spot back yet. I think they don’t want to upset the current groove they are in, plus he’s a better arm in the pen than anything they can bring up for Hughes.
I think all it will take is one Hughes bad start to get Wang back in and I think the organization likes making Phil pitch for his supper. I think adding the pressure to his starts is making him a bit tougher than he was.
That said, I don’t love Wang. I would have traded him for Johan. I was vocal about that.
His meltdowns in the playoffs against Cleveland and the way he started this season have left a bitter taste in my mouth as a fan. I don’t hate him, but I definitely don’t trust him.
I may or may not be new here
wang can pitch shutout ball for months & still not have a 5 era.
i don’t know how well wang will pitch if he starts but i think he will be fine.
take out hughes balt start & he has pitched very well.
it is a difficult situation.
it will fix itself.
i would be very apprehensive about putting wang back.
you can make a case for both.
it wouldn’t kill us if we sent hughes down but girardi is not ready to make a move yet & there is a reason for that.
no difinitives here.
“When AJ is right Wang can’t sniff his jock strap.”
Yeah, well AJ is so rarely “right” that Wang won’t have to worry about jock strap sniffin’.
Steve, I’m with you.
Too many inning…
Not enough innings…
This year…
Next year…
Wang should be in the rotation?
Fine, put him in the rotation after the Boston series.
Hughes Stays on the Big League Club!
He has nothing to prove at AAA and needs to gain experience at the major league level. Pitch him out of the Pen for 2-3 inning streches with 2-3 days off in between.
The BullPen has stunk without Bruney and they can use the help.
Someone will likely get hurt and he’ll be back in there anyway.
Ace is a starter and he’s in the Pen. What’s the difference?
The Sox use Masterson out of the Pen and as a spot starter.
If everyone stays healthy and Phil doesn’t get his 150innings then let him pitch in the Fall league like last year.
Stultus Magnus, I also agree.
And that’s not rue. Wang’s come close to no hitters himself.
“Just in case we forgot how bad Wang was
3.2 IP, 9 H, 7 ER
1 IP, 6 H, 8 ER
1.1 IP, 8 H, 8 ER”
Lets also not forget 19 wins in 2006, 19 wins in 2007, 8-2 in 2008. Wang should be starting over Hughes.
I REALLY don’t like the decsion Cashman and Joe were made, It’s so ridiculous! it’s a big mistake when they reactive Wang from DL too soon, you cost 5m to sign a pitcher only for bullpen? even he was the two-time 19 game winner during 06 and 07 season..I think Hughes is not pitched well to stay in the rotation, at least, I dont think he is a MLB ready player, ERA 5 above, only 5 inning stamia, less control when player on base, I would like to tell Joe, please give the job back to the Wang, he is the only one has the right to stay in the rotation….
SJ44 -
Yes, it is most definitely the Yankees’ own doing that this current situation exists.
I think having Wang start Monday would be a great idea. I hope they do it. I have said, the only way to know exactly what Wang can give them as a starter is to let him start.
Then better decisions, or at least more thoughtful ones, can be made.
Well. Assuming Wang pitch well but stayed in BP this whole year and will have a 18-20 wins season next year. If you were Wang, will you test yourself in the market? Cash might have issue convincing Wang to accept Yankees offer unless Want totally forgets about he Cash treated him since the arbitration. don’t you think GM should look at long-term for the club? I don’t get it why they don’t want to start Wang at least once for 5 inns and evaluate his progress.
IMO:
Give Hughes his next start then sit him down for a couple starts and return Wang to his place in the rotation.
Give Hughes scheduled side work or extended bullpens in the meantime. Do not not use him as a reliever unless it coincides with a proper starter’s work schedule.
Send Hughes back to Scranton to continue working as a starter. He’ll be ready if someone in the rotation gets hurt or hits a rough stretch.
Hughes will be ready to take Pettitte’s place in the rotation next year after Pettitte’s current contract is up. In the meantime he’ll be back in Da Bronx by September at the latest, when the rosters expand.
Better to move Hughes back & forth between Scranton & Da Bronx (as a starter) than to move either Hughes or Wang back & forth between the bullpen & the rotation. Can’t move either guy back & forth between pitching of any sort and the bench, because they both need to get their work in. And you can’t move Wang to Scranton because he has no options left.
Giving Wang a couple starts to get his groove back then sending Hughes down is really the only logical option.
SJ-
The Phillies have a couple of good outfield prospects (Dominic Brown in High A & Michael Taylor in AA). Wang IMO would be a perfect fit for the Phillies.
They could use another pitcher and he’s a ground ball pitcher in that park.
Think they’re willing to give up one of those outfield prospects for Wang?
Did Drew Bledsoe get his job back when he was injured in 2001 and Brady came in?
Exactly. You give your team the best chance to win, period.
“And that’s not rue. Wang’s come close to no hitters himself.”
That’s all luck, but yes it’s true. If it weren’t for A-Rod and Abreu, Wang had a shot at a perfect game at Fenway last year. The season before that, he was pitching into the 8th with a no-hitter at Yankee Stadium.
I just don’t get the crowd that wants Wang gone. It’s senseless.
Comparing Wang’s bullpen stats to Hughes’ stats as a starter is pointless.
“While Hughes is 22 he’s not miles better than him. When AJ is right Wang can’t sniff his jock strap.”
This is hilarious.
I love Hughes but he has a miniscule track record compared to a 2 time 19 game winner.
Also, you might want to check Burnett and Wang’s career stats and see whose jock strap needs sniffing.
I may or may not be new here,
I mean to say, you’re right, he’s good.
“I think the organization likes making Phil pitch for his supper. I think adding the pressure to his starts is making him a bit tougher than he was.”
They do and it is, for some reason he went from wuss to a sniper in training, he just doesn’t look like right now he’s giving that spot up. And GI Joe already said it’s going to take more than 1 or 2 bad starts. Kay said it yesterday, the Yankees have no worry right now. None, who’s in first ? who’s been hot, why would they feel pressured to do something now ?
“Did Drew Bledsoe get his job back when he was injured in 2001 and Brady came in?
Exactly. You give your team the best chance to win, period.”
Did Tom Brady sport a 5+ ERA?
Evan
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:11 pm
“Joba and Phil reach their innings limit this year and is ready for full time duty next year. Pettitte retires. Rotation becomes CC, AJ, Wang, Joba, Hughes.”
Since when do the Yankees not care about THIS year? The Yankees want to win every year.
“Joba is their 4th best pitcher right now this season. You can not refute that.
The question is, who is their 5th best. Hughes or Wang?”
I am not refuting that. My point is there is a much greater gap between Joba and the bullpen guys than Joba to Wang/Hughes. Joba has potential to be a great pitcher. This season he is not a great pitcher. He has been good. He had one great start and a lot of mediocre ones where he couldnt get past the 5th or 6th inning.
______ ____________
You missed the point entirely, look at Joba’s numbers compared to Hughes and Wang and tell me that you would rather have them over Joba in the 5th starter spot. I’m not saying he is their 2nd starter, but these stats by no means are mediocre.
DATE GAME W L ERA IP H R ER HR BB SO NP-S
APR 12 @KC 0 0 1.50 6.0 4 3 1 1 1 5 88-56
APR 17 CLE 0 0 5.06 4.2 6 5 5 1 5 4 93-46
APR 24 @BOS 0 0 3.94 5.1 9 2 1 0 4 2 91-49
APR 29 @DET 1 0 3.13 7.0 3 1 1 0 3 6 88-50
MAY 05 BOS 0 1 3.77 5.2 6 4 4 1 2 12 108-65
MAY 10 @BAL 1 0 3.89 6.0 9 3 3 1 2 5 104-64
MAY 16 MIN 0 0 3.76 6.0 3 2 2 1 4 6 108-66
MAY 21 BAL 0 0 3.70 0.2 2 0 0 0 0 1 14-8
MAY 26 @TEX 0 0 3.97 4.0 4 3 3 1 4 5 84-46
JUN 01 @CLE 1 0 3.71 8.0 4 2 2 1 2 5 106-66
Thats 5 Quality Starts, a bit more than 1 as you suggest. And just as many as Pettitte and AJ (up until yesterday)
He ranks 19th in the league in ERA(2nd on the Yanks) and 16th in the league in K’s. (3rd on the Yanks)
And to re-iterate again, You put your 5 best pitchers who can get through a lineup more than once in your starting rotation. That should be a mantra drilled into all the Joba to the bullpen guys.
“Burnett and Wang’s career stats and see whose jock strap needs sniffing.”
Exactly, Burnett, over 11 seasons, has won 91 games. Wang won 54 from ’05 to ’08. Burnett was hovering around the .500 mark before last year’s dominance.
And not to discredit what you said…that same gap from Joba to the BP to Joba to Wang/Hughes could be drawn with Wang/Hughes to the BP. Which is why the worst one out of the three is in the BP at this moment.
It seems to me that the best thing to do is let Girardi decide when Wang has the best matchup and give Wang a start that day.
Push everybody else back a day. No different than a rain out.
If Wang does well, then go from there. If he doesn’t, well you learned something from that too.
When and if Wang is back to being Wang, then there’s no doubt he one of the Yank’s five best starters. At that point you figure out what to do with Hughes, be it in the Yanks’ pen or down in AAA starting.
Kay’s a fool if he think’s we’re in the clear 1 game ahead of the Sox.
No worries? How about fixing that cesspool we call a bullpen? How about doing the right thing by fixing the Wang situation sooner than later?
Its funny how everybody blames the trainers and strength coaches yet Wang himself said he was 100% fine after each of his craptastic starts. Maybe if he admitted something was wrong we would have a few more wins?
“Did Drew Bledsoe get his job back when he was injured in 2001 and Brady came in?”
Hughes ain’t exactly been Tom Brady.
I may or may not be new here :
you might be right but you do not know for sure.nobody does.
wang pitched a few innings wich is a different ballgame than starting.can’t compare the two.
we are rooting for the same team.
but one thing i do not do is trade wang for an outfielder.
gardner is doing fine right now.
right now our outfield is not a problem.
our bullpen might be fixed with wang in it.we don’t know yet.
you are saying he is lights out out of the pen.
what is that saying?did we fix the bullpen?
if wang in the pen gets us # 27 are you willing to do that???
If you keep Hughes very close to his current 5-day schedule (maybe w/similated games?) while Wang takes the rotation slot Hughes has now, then Hughes is ready to come in for long relief (I mean 4+ innings) when Wang is pitching.
It’s just convenient if Wang’s getting hammered again. Only use Hughes in a game if that’s what happens, otherwise have him throw a simulated game the next day. Give it a few times through the rotation and see whether Wang’s going in the right direction or not, and send Hughes down if it’s looking like Wang’s going to be OK.
“vin , unforunately he did have the clunker. That’s like saying if you take away his starts vs. Texas or Detroit.”
Definitely true, but that’s the trouble with focusing too much on the numbers when dealing with young pitchers. In his last start, he was looking great until the wheels fell off in the 3rd, he then corrected himself in the 4th and 5th innings.
The biggest things for a young pitcher is to learn how to maintain his mechanics throughout a game, and to be able to turn a lineup over. I give a young guy more of a pass when he hits a rocky inning than I do an AJ or CMW. It’s just part of the learning process.
Why would Wang know there was weakness in his hip? No pain, no limp.
“Did Tom Brady sport a 5+ ERA?”
Really? Stop it.
If it weren’t for one bad start in Baltimore, Hughes would have a 3.54 ERA.
If they’re committed to making Wang a bullpen guy, give him big outs. At least he has a good pitching track record. Better than some of the clowns in our pen.
Brandon,
I do think a lot of this is the Yankees doing the final developing of Phil Hughes. He’s pitching with pressure he can lose his spot at any minute.
He’s pitching with pressure of a 1st place vet team that he has to answer to if he chokes on the mound.
This is the kind of education he could never get at AAA.
I don’t know why we need to trade Wang though.
Our best Yankee teams in the past had 6 or more starters. I like the depth.
That kind of depth gets you to October.
I feel bad for Wang but I’m not cutting myself over it. He’ll get his chance again.
The Yankees can’t trade him now because his value is at an all time low, so keep him on the roster and use him.
First off, forget about trading Wang. He has no trade value at the present time. None.
For those of you who want to trade him, you should want him in the rotation and pitching well. THEN, he has trade value.
GLove,
Its hard to rip Wang on his playoff outings. CC has had some clunkers in the post-season. Especially in a pennant deciding game with the Red Sox. It happens.
Andy Pettitte got shelled in Game 6 of the ’01 WS, when he was tipping pitches, and didn’t give the Yankees a chance to win that night. It happens to everybody at some point in their careers.
I just don’t get the venom some have for him.
Do you think he WANTED to pitch like he did to upset some of your lives? He was hurt AND misdiagnosed by the Yankees.
Hell, they even messed up his rehab!
I’ll tell you this much, if he had Aces or Scott Boras as his agents, agents with much more pull in the game, this situation would have reached a boiling point much sooner.
The Yankees screwed him up a helluva lot more than Wang screwed himself up here.
I don’t get the treatment of him. I really don’t.
Phil Hughes is not a better pitcher than Chien Ming Wang. Nor is AJ Burnett. Nor is Andy Pettitte at this stage of his career.
The guy is not a slug. They gave freaking Sidney Ponson starts last year. What’s the big deal over giving Wang a start, say Monday, and seeing where he’s at?
I just don’t understand the thinking of the club on this one.
vin, exactly, but if you’re looking for the best chance to win, I’ll risk Wang.
I think the best way to get Wang back in the rotation is to pair him with Hughes for the 3 or 4 starts. For example:
Start1- Hughes 5 innings, Wang 4 innings, or 3 plus Mo.
Start 2- Same
Start 3-Wang starts, 5 innings, Hughes 3-4 innings
Start 4-Wang for as long as he can, Hughes cleans up until Mo.
If all is going well, then Hughes goes back to AAA until Joba gets to his limit.
I have a theory as to why Wang doesn’t get the respect he deserves – not no respect, but diminished respect.
The players on the Yankees who garner the same attitude are those players whom the fans really haven’t gotten to know because they don’t do many interviews because of their limited abilities with English.
Hideki Matsui, Robinson Cano, Melky Cabrera and Chien-Ming Wang are players with whom television interviews are rare or non-existent. Matsui continues to use a translator. Cano has worked hard at his English and does more interview than the others. But even when CMW pitches a great game, he’s not the guy in front of the camera. These are players that I’ve been surprised by the ambivalence or disregard shown to them by some fans.
I think the fans become more invested in players that they feel they know. And the way we come to know players (or think we do) is through the television camera pre- and post-games. Brett Gardner, did a couple of really cool things last year when he was called up and was immediately on camera post-game. People could put a personality on him, he connected through the tv screen. It’s important.
I am not suggesting there is discrimination here. I am suggesting that when one isn’t as invested in a player, one has a more cavalier attitude toward where he fits in with the team and whether or not he stays with the team.
This is not true for all fans, but I think it is something to think about.
someone else mentioned this before but this is sterling calling matsui’s homerun and A-Bomb lmao
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....id=4844253
Let’s simplify.
Hughes’ 2009 role: Sixth starter.
Role of sixth starter: To start when one of the other 5 starters can’t.
Let Hughes start against Boston at Fenway next week. It’s hostile territory, and if Wang has a bad game that’s the worst situation for him to have a bad game.
Meanwhile, continue to find Wang work when you can and build his confidence over the next week.
After Hughes’ start at Boston, thank him for doing a tremendous job, tell him to continue his great work, and we’ll see you next time we need a sixth starter, which, again, is the role he is playing this year.
“Why would Wang know there was weakness in his hip? No pain, no limp.”
You just know. I played baseball among other sports in HS and college and you know if you are not feeling 100% come competition time.
Wang deserves another shot, especially with Hughes not giving quality starts more often than not.
Can we get more Wang Fan Fiction where he demolishes us some how? I liked that
Also Boston giving him a 7 year deal.
“Really? Stop it.
If it weren’t for one bad start in Baltimore, Hughes would have a 3.54 ERA.”
While we’re cherry picking which facts to leave out, if the Yankees hadn’t messed up Wang’s rehab OR told him not to work out his lower body, we wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place.
There is no way I would start Hughes over a healthy Wang this year. None.
“I love Hughes but he has a miniscule track record compared to a 2 time 19 game winner.”
Your comparing Hughes at 22, 22 yrs. old
How is Wang miles away better, 19 games and a career ERA of 4.06 w/ a heck of an offense. Wang at Hughes age was in A ball.
“Also, you might want to check Burnett and Wang’s career stats and see whose jock strap needs sniffing.”
Wang career ERA 4.06
Burnett career ERA 3.86
Wang WHIP 1.33
Burnett WHIP 1.29
Wins lets see what did Toronto and FLA have offensively to get him wins ? Lets not even go into K/BB.
Peter,
Weren’t you the one who, just the other day, was critical of fans for acting as if they know more about how to run this first-place team than Joe Girardi does?
I guess when it comes to Wang, however, you DO know more than Joe… :-/
“They gave freaking Sidney Ponson starts last year. What’s the big deal over giving Wang a start, say Monday, and seeing where he’s at?”
Agreed, with all the lousy pitchers to take the mound in the last few years, why not? There is no big deal. Girardi and the Yanks should give him a shot unless they know something we don’t. In THAT case, they should let Wang in on their plans and those plans should include a path back to the rotation or AT LEAST a start. But Wang has no idea, why would they tell Wang?
He deserves better treatment from the Yanks.
“People could put a personality on him, he connected through the tv screen. It’s important.”
Only to some fans.
Doesn’t much matter whether Wang has the repsect of fans or why. What matters is he doesn’t seem to have the respect of the Yankees.
“Let Hughes start against Boston at Fenway next week. It’s hostile territory, and if Wang has a bad game that’s the worst situation for him to have a bad game.
Meanwhile, continue to find Wang work when you can and build his confidence over the next week.
After Hughes’ start at Boston, thank him for doing a tremendous job, tell him to continue his great work, and we’ll see you next time we need a sixth starter, which, again, is the role he is playing this year.”
Exactly. People forget Hughes was the SIXTH starter this season.
This is for a very good reason. We have five starters on the team currently better than he is.
It isn’t a knock on Phil at all. He’ll get his shot as soon as next year.
Gotta disagree with you there Doreen. I LOVE Matsui and have since he got here.
My issues with Cano in the past were based on his performance, not his dialect.
My issues with Wang are performance again. He was horrible this season in those 3 starts. The pen got burnt early because of him.
We could be in first by a few more games if he pitched well and the pen was rested early on.
I don’t care if he speaks Klingon. Just pitch well.
While I understand the Yankees should have realized he wasn’t himself coming out of the spring, a lot of it is on Wang.
He told everyone he was healthy and ready to go when he clearly wasn’t. I don’t think that was a language barrier.
The season is 1/3 over. Having each starter skip a start would likely do them some good. It’s a long season and most starters miss at least a start or 2 over the course of the season for some reason.
Have Wang go back in to the rotation.
Have Hughes replace the starters in sequence. He would pitch on 6 days rest (normal 5 plus 1 to get from 1-2, 2-3, etc.).
This will take 30 games. You can reassess at that point. Maybe you put Hughes in the pen at that point for a month and then do it again. Or maybe he replaces Joba in the rotation for a month (if Joba is pushing up against his innings cap, not because I think that Joba should be a reliever).
The Yanks can make good use out of having a 6th starter if they think out of the box.
mymanlivingston,
read my last post. They SHOULD let Wang know. He deserves that. That’s the point. Wang has no clue and he has earned better treatment.
Doreen,
You have hit the nail on the head. The language barrier is why so many fans are quick to turn on Wang.
If he had Nick Swisher’s personality or Jorge Posada’s fire, or Joba’s fist pump, fans would eat it up.
Because he is quiet and doesn’t speak English during his interviews, its easy for fans to turn on him.
The guy is a helluva pitcher. He also gives them a unique look. When that power sinker is on, and you slot him between CC and AJ, it gives the Yankees three guys in a row with completely different looks to hitters. That’s a positive.
Hopefully, this situation gets resolved soon, he pitches well, and is back in the rotation. It makes the Yankees a better team if it works out that way.
Lots of rain in the forecast, anyone think this game will be played?
“I don’t know why we need to trade Wang though”
GL, I don’t want to trade him but if the deal is right I’m listening.
“vin, exactly, but if you’re looking for the best chance to win, I’ll risk Wang.”
I think we’re in agreement then. I’d like to see a healthy CMW in the rotation, Phil in the BP/spot starter role this year (only if used correctly, though), Joba as starter.
I don’t care if he speaks Klingon. Just pitch well.
==============================
You just reminded me, I still need to find some time to go see that Star Trek movie
I said it before, I’ll say it now: With all this Joba in the pen talk, Wang in the pen isn’t the worst idea. We have an awful pen and Wang is a proven starter. Why not?
Brandon,
Here you go, ADJUSTED
Wang career ERA (’05-08) 3.79
Burnett career ERA 3.86
Wang WHIP (’05- 08)1.29
Burnett WHIP 1.29
“Your comparing Hughes at 22, 22 yrs. old
How is Wang miles away better, 19 games and a career ERA of 4.06 w/ a heck of an offense. Wang at Hughes age was in A ball.”
He’s better right NOW. Especially when healthy. People seem to have the misconception that Hughes has been pitching like Satchel Paige lately.
“Wang career ERA 4.06
Burnett career ERA 3.86
Wang WHIP 1.33
Burnett WHIP 1.29
Wins lets see what did Toronto and FLA have offensively to get him wins ? Lets not even go into K/BB.”
Where did Burnett pitch half his career? The NL, where pitchers like Kyle Lohse miraculously resurrect.
Wang has spent all of his career in the toughest division in baseball for pitchers.
Is tonights game gonna happen???
“The language barrier is why so many fans are quick to turn on Wang.”
I totally agree with that.
Hughes will get his chance when Joba reaches his innings cap this year and next year when Pettite retires.
the trainers,cashman,girardi have to know that by wang not strengthening his lower body was going to cause problems.
how can you not know that?
it is common sense imo.
give wang a start,send hughes down.
if wang struggles put him in the pen & forget about him.
wang & his agent are worried about his next contract as they should be.
Steve B -
I did say it wasn’t true of all fans.
You are right, though, that the respect that matters or, rather, the lack of respect, is from the Yankees. If perception is reality, then it certainly looks like they are being a little too cavalier with him. Which stinks.
Hey guys, Jim Kaat’s engaged to be married!
http://web.yesnetwork.com/news.....8&oid=
Now that’s nice.
what a wonderfull problem to have.
last year was a mess.
who would of ever thought that in less than one year we would have pitching debth & a killer rotation??
i love it.
bru, you’re right about that.
didn’t Kaat’s wife just die…
The Yanks have been winning without Wang. He picked a really bad year to suck in April.
“The language barrier is why so many fans are quick to turn on Wang.”
Well if that is the case, then I would argue that the bigger reason that fans turn on CMW is more due to their own idiocy than the language barrier. The guy has been a horse for this team, and their best/most consistent starter for his first 3 years in the league.
G.Love -
The language barrier does come into play with Wang’s health, though. He is not fluent in English. He probably speaks baseball perfectly fine. But the nuances of describing the particular way your body feels and answering particular questions is different. Even with an interpreter present.
Heck, it’s like if I go to a mechanic and tell him I have a thingy that’s going clickety-clickety in my car. And he starts talking about (well, I’m not fluent in mechanic speak, so forgive me for this simple example) gaskets and catalytic converters. I know what my clickety-clickety is – he doesn’t. He knows what a catalytic converter is – I don’t.
No way tonight’s game gets played
The only question is if there is DH tomorrow or a DH when Texas comes back to the stadium in August.
Wang has not had good representation.
He didn’t meet the guy who argued his arbitration case until the day of the hearing. Highly unusual. The guy did a poor job on the case and he lost. Not a good job by his agents, who don’t do arbitration cases. They farm them out.
You can farm them out. No problem with that. However, for a guy of Wang’s ability, you have to do a better job of preparing a case.
Now, this entire episode.
Most fans only care about wins and losses. Their love and hate toward players varies depending on that days box score.
However, a player has an agent for a reason. To protect his interests.
With Wang, he’s had bad representation and its hurt him as much as that foot injury has hurt him.
If he’s smart, he’d fire his agent and get someone with more power in the game. It would help him a great deal, IMO.
we are in first place & closing in on the best record in baseball.
what is up with the mets?
what a mess.
not playing well & the swine flue.
if that isn’t bad karma i don’t know what is.
santanna can’t be happy.
I’m hoping the guy gets a start soon, this is getting to be out of hand.
It’s like three starts have undone his three years of stellar service.
It’s a disgrace.
Z Man-Darn. Can you give a link to the forecast.
Why in the world does this stadium not have a dome?
Burnett is better than Wang in every area except wins, but wins are a byproduct of team success.
Randy Johnson won 17 games with a 5.01 ERA in 2006
“what a wonderfull problem to have.”
You’re right Bru. Is it a good “problem” to have. However, the Yankees have not taken full advantage of it, IMO. Wang to this point has been fairly useless this year both as a pitcher and trade bait.
Because it doesnt rain often enough in New York to necessitate it?
I may,
http://www.weather.com/weather.....rom=search
“Hughes will get his chance when Joba reaches his innings cap this year and next year when Pettite retires.”
I’m not so sure the Yanks will let Joba reach his innings limit before the end of the season. I believe it was said they’ll disregard the cap if they’re in the playoffs.
I think they’ll skip him a few times in the summer to prevent this. It obviously depends on a few factors though: the starters’ health, and the division/WC race.
Jerkface, In the Eastern states it rains ALL THE TINE, not to mention a lot of strong winds.
It’s not like Hughes has been dominant. He has a 3.54 ERA in non-Baltimore starts and has struggled to go 6
Wang, will go 7 every night.
Wang, an effective Wang gives us the best chance to win, period. The Yankees are depriving themselves of the opportunity to be as good as they can be.
Starting Wang on Monday pushes Andy to the Boston series and I’m not so sure we want two lefties going up there.
Wang needs to get in a game or two before then anyway so let’s see how he does.
I think we’ll see Wang tonight and we’ll see how Andy’s back is too.
vin, then when Pettite leaves.
Z Man, you’re right, I’d be totally shocked if they played.
TINE is TIME.
Doreen
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:00 pm
G.Love –
The language barrier does come into play with Wang’s health, though. He is not fluent in English. He probably speaks baseball perfectly fine. But the nuances of describing the particular way your body feels and answering particular questions is different. Even with an interpreter present.
Heck, it’s like if I go to a mechanic and tell him I have a thingy that’s going clickety-clickety in my car. And he starts talking about (well, I’m not fluent in mechanic speak, so forgive me for this simple example) gaskets and catalytic converters. I know what my clickety-clickety is – he doesn’t. He knows what a catalytic converter is – I don’t.
————————————————————
Maybe that’s what’s wrong with my car. The thingy under the hood is going clickeyu-clickety and the mechanic doesn’t understand mechanis speak.
Doreen,
Very good point, and I think you’re completely correct.
It also sounds like Wang needs a new agent, based on what SJ44 has said about the arbitration and the current situation.
Wang only won 19 games in 2 straight seasons. The next season he was only 8-2 when his foot blew up. He consistently had an ERA in the 3.6 – 3.7 range for 2 straight seasons. He was only one of the winningest pitchers in the game during that stretch.
It’s very clear why there’s venom for him. He didn’t lead the league (sorry – the major leagues) in every major stat category each of those years, he didn’t win the Cy Young, he didn’t win 3 games per playoff series, and he didn’t single-handedly carry the heavily-flawed teams of those 3 years to the world series title.
Never mind how many other players on his team didn’t contribute as well as the should have. Never mind that the team would have been FAR worse without him, as was proven last year after he went down. It seems this guy needs to win games he’s not even pitching in to get the respect he deserves.
That’s what he needs to do. Win games he’s not even in. If he can’t, then the only way he can get respect is to match Gooden’s best season, follow it up with a duplicate of Clemens’ best season, then beat Pedro’s best season and then he has to get better from there.
It’s like A-Rod has to hit 50+HR a season (all of them would still somehow be deemed meaningless by some people’s standards) knock in 150 runs, hit .350+, have a 1.000 slugging pct, a 2.000 OPS, hit 3-run HRs when nobody’s on base, go 3-for-5 every day and stop 100% of the balls hit less than 15 feet off the ground between 2nd base and the 3rd baseline.
Yep .. A-Rod ain’t the next Gehrig. He sucks, we’re better off without him. We should have gotten Manny and converted him to a 3B. And Wang utterly blows too. Clearly he should be traded for an average OF, a much less experienced (and less proven) pitching prospect, or a few bullpen arms that have a 2-3 year lifespan.
Steve B (Wouldn’t it be cool if AJ’s ERA was 3.14)
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:03 pm
“what a wonderfull problem to have.”
You’re right Bru. Is it a good “problem” to have. However, the Yankees have not taken full advantage of it, IMO. Wang to this point has been fairly useless this year both as a pitcher and trade bait.
———————————————————–
i don’t think by the way they handled wang cost them one single game & i would not trade him.
we have debth for the first time in years.
it will work itself out.
ther is to much pressure on the team to start him but i do have to say that girardi is holding firm.
the yankees are in a tough position.
they love the experience that hughes is getting wich will help us immensely going forward hopefully not at the expense of hurting wang.
“Wang, an effective Wang gives us the best chance to win, period. The Yankees are depriving themselves of the opportunity to be as good as they can be.”
It’s inexplicable how they have put themselves into this situation. Sign CC and AJ, but lowball your most proven starter in arbitration then exile him to the bullpen after three bad starts, which may have been partly the brass’ fault in the first place.
***clickety-clickety*** and the mechanic doesn’t understand ***mechanic*** speak.
I’m obviously missing something. Hughes did not have a rotation spot out of ST. Therefore, he started the season in Scranton. He got called up as an injury replacement. Now, hopefully, Wang is no longer injured. Why is it a problem to send Hughes back to Scranton?
I understand he’s pitched well. Isn’t that why he was called up? Did people expect him to stink up the joint?
Unless there is something more wrong with Wang – which there certainly could be, given the Yankees don’t have to tell us anything – isn’t it the normal thing to give the starter back his slot in the rotation and send the AAA replacement (even if he’s really good) back down? Why would Hughes expect anything else?
“Never mind how many other players on his team didn’t contribute as well as the should have. Never mind that the team would have been FAR worse without him, as was proven last year after he went down. It seems this guy needs to win games he’s not even pitching in to get the respect he deserves.”
Brilliant.
Why? Pettitte has pitched in Fenway, and pitched well, for years there. Its not a big deal.
Its about doing what’s best for the long term chances of the team and that’s seeing if Wang is ready to return to the rotation. Only way to do that is by giving him a start.
AJ Burnett is not a better pitcher than Wang. Don’t get caught up in K’s. Wang has been the better pitcher since he came into the league in 2005.
That’s not a knock to AJ. Its more about how successful Wang has been since he has entered the league.
All this, “wins don’t matter” is BS. Wins matter. If they didn’t, everybody wouldn’t be trying to use them as a way to get into the HOF.
Wins get you in the HOF. WHIP alone does not.
Its one thing to be stats oriented. Its another to completely ignore reality. Such as, “wins don’t matter”.
Its not the only way to measure a pitchers effectiveness. However, its still an important measure of a pitchers success.
As Bob Uecker once said, “if the games don’t matter, why do they keep score”?
I think Wang should be pitching every 5 days regardless of the game situation. Have him pitch on either Hughes’ or Joba’s starts and then go to the pen to simulate the rest of a game. Getting him ready for the rotation should be more important that keeping him available in the bullpen. If they really need another arm in the pen, send down Berroa for one.
if wang gets a start soon & gets bombed everyone will be killing girardi for taking hughes out.
it is a very difficult situation.
wang is regressing but hughes is maturing & advancing exponentially .
Wang still may still have some sort of clickety-clack in his boney-bone-bone.
I couldn’t resist.
“i don’t think by the way they handled wang cost them one single game & i would not trade him.”
Might have cost ‘em three games in April. Part of their mismanagement was their ill-advised plan for his rehab leading up to the season. It showed up in his pitching in starts against the O’s, Rays and Tribe.
not sure exponentially is the right word but it sounded great.
SJ44:
Most players and sportswriters use wins for HOF campaigns because they aren’t that bright and people like ‘big numbers’.
A pitcher with a 6 ERA who gets 8 runs each night could win 300 games. Would that guy really belong in the hall of fame? You don’t get in on longevity.
Two stills, one still. How about three stills?
Send Phil Hughes and his insatiable appetite back down to Scranton. At least Wang won’t be distracted by the all-you-can-eat section in Cleveland.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06.....ref=sports
Excellent read.
Steve B (Wouldn’t it be cool if AJ’s ERA was 3.14)
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:15 pm
“i don’t think by the way they handled wang cost them one single game & i would not trade him.”
Might have cost ‘em three games in April. Part of their mismanagement was their ill-advised plan for his rehab leading up to the season. It showed up in his pitching in starts against the O’s, Rays and Tribe.
————————————————————
i meant after he came back.
i agree though on his rehab.
Beulah June 3rd, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Send Phil Hughes and his insatiable appetite back down to Scranton. At least Wang won’t be distracted by the all-you-can-eat section in Cleveland.
======================================
“Why is it a problem to send Hughes back to Scranton? ”
Because the team is on a roll right now. If they were still at .500, then CMW would’ve gotten at least 1 start by now. You don’t mess with a streak.
Clare,
I also love the cherrypicking of stats when it comes to Hughes and Wang in this instance.
“If you take out the Baltimore start”….when it comes to Hughes.
What does that mean?
If you take out the 3 horrific starts from Wang this year, you know what you have? One of the 5 best starting pitchers in the AL the last THREE years.
Phil Hughes is not at that level yet. Wang is.
The Yankees aren’t so good that they can keep a guy like Wang in drydock much longer.
They have to see if he is ready to get back in the rotation. If he is, they are a better team.
That gives them FOUR guys capable of going 7 most nights.
You want to hide a bad bullpen? Roll out 4 guys who can give them innings like, CC, Wang, AJ and Pettitte.
ellen,
I don’t think Phil is the one with expectations. It’s the fans. Some haven’t gotten over the fact that he had 3 very poor starts. They’re not willing to give him a mulligan. Some have admitted bias against him (credit due there). Others have agendas. But most of us appreciate Wang for what he brings and if he’s ready to bring it, there’s no question that Phil’s the odd man out.
But he’s done his job, which was to make the decision difficult for Girardi. But it’s really a no-brainer, no matter what Cashman smokescreen quotes people want to throw around.
It’s not just about the here and now – yeah, it’s silly to complain about 6 healthy, effective starters and the team on a roll right now, but keeping Wang in the bullpen means that he’s not getting his regular work in and he’s losing arm strength by the day. When he’s finally inserted back into the starting rotation, he’ll have the same problems he did in April.
Not smart.
People think that a player like Kaat, John and Blyleven shouldn’t get into the HOF based in part on career longevity, but, they have no problem disregarding those whose careers were shortened by injuries.
Mark in Tampa
“I think the best way to get Wang back in the rotation is to pair him with Hughes for the 3 or 4 starts. For example:
Start1- Hughes 5 innings, Wang 4 innings, or 3 plus Mo.
Start 2- Same
Start 3-Wang starts, 5 innings, Hughes 3-4 innings
Start 4-Wang for as long as he can, Hughes cleans up until Mo.
If all is going well, then Hughes goes back to AAA until Joba gets to his limit.”
No a bad idea but this isn’t spring training. What if Huges has a shutout going or it’s a 1 run game. You take Hughes out and Wang gets bombed.
I think I like your idea about having and Hughes on schedual though. Having one back up the other may be better than pushing everyone back to get the 6th guy a start.
“You want to hide a bad bullpen? Roll out 4 guys who can give them innings like, CC, Wang, AJ and Pettitte.”
Exactly, the team is simply that much better with a healthy Wang taking the ball every five days.
The only way to find out if he really IS healthy, is to give him at least one start.
dl,
Exactly. If and when they throw him out there, he’ll likely struggle without regular work. And then everyone will throw their hands up and say, “See! Told you so!”
This is like a shuttle landing here. The window of opportunity for a safe landing is very small.
It is ridiculous how Wang is being treated by the fans and the management. The man is a PROVEN #2 starter. Yes, he had a couple of bad starts in the playoffs, but the year before I remember him having a great start in the playoffs.
So the guy doesn’t have a raging personality. He throws a 96mph sinker when he is right that knocks bats out of batters hands.
My plan would be to sub Wang for Hughes in the rotation, move Phil to the bullpen and use him and Aceves as your two dominant bullpen relievers. Rather than go for 1 inning relief stints, I let those two guys throw multiple innings per game to minimize the damage our other relievers are causing. Mendoza style.
Phil doesn’t have anything left to learn in the minors. He needs to get ML hitters out and he can do that out of the pen (worked for santana). When we need a spot start, he’s the man. When Joba gets near the innings limit, I swap the two and return joba to the pen.
Problem solved. Team=improved.
“Burnett is better than Wang in every area except wins, but wins are a byproduct of team success.
Randy Johnson won 17 games with a 5.01 ERA in 2006″
OK, forget about wins. What about ERA, innings pitched, and walks per inning? Or are strikeouts and WHIP the only categories you’re looking at?
Burnett has also had more injury problems than Wang.
Put Wang back in the rotation or trade him freeing him to shine somewhere else for the sake of the sport. Afterall, who messed up his re-hab plans after his on-the-job injury? The Yankees screwed up his re-hab that caused Wang’s three poor starts in April. Ya, the 3 starts sucked but Wang should not carry the total screwed-up responsibility on his shoulder. Yankees management failed Wang big time.
Focus, people, focus. The issue is Wang. Not Hughes. Not AJ. Wang.
ellen
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:09 pm
I’m obviously missing something. Hughes did not have a rotation spot out of ST. Therefore, he started the season in Scranton. He got called up as an injury replacement. Now, hopefully, Wang is no longer injured. Why is it a problem to send Hughes back to Scranton?
I understand he’s pitched well. Isn’t that why he was called up? Did people expect him to stink up the joint?
Unless there is something more wrong with Wang – which there certainly could be, given the Yankees don’t have to tell us anything – isn’t it the normal thing to give the starter back his slot in the rotation and send the AAA replacement (even if he’s really good) back down? Why would Hughes expect anything else?
——
Because Hughes himself lost the spot he was handed last spring due to injury and then ineffectiveness. If the Yanks are all in on Hughes him then they want him to develop quickly so they can tout the homegrown product card not to mention that he may be as good or better than Wang or any other starter.
If Hughes is MLB ready now then no need to send him back down.
Francesca waxing poetic about an “impressive” Red Sox win…..right. The Yankees win 16 out of 20 and he concedes they are playing “good” ball. I shut him off right away. He’s really stupid today, actually. First he comes on and says that (his new boy toy) Zach Duke would come to the AL East and be John Tudor, easily winning 20 games. Duke may be talented, but better pitchers than he have come to the AL East (or, even, just the AL) and failed miserably. Then he goes on to say that the “war” between the Rangers and Yankees isn’t over. Is he kidding? Padilla started the whole thing – Burnett was just protecting his team and Tex was just giving good old fashioned “pay back” by his hard slide. The Rangers KNOW it was Padilla’s fault – I’d be absolutely shocked if they started anything tonight.
One more thing – Joe and Evan this morning actually said that Tex should have ended this thing by starting a brawl, by showing Padilla that you can’t mess around with him. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. Tex starting a fight would have been (a) selfish and (b) stupid, considering that (a) his teammates could have gotten hurt and (b) he’d have absolutely been suspended. Sure, that would have helped the Yankees.
LOL I’ve missed earlier talk, but please – are we talking about AJ being removed from the rotation? Ridiculous.
m – exactly. It’s just so odd to read people posting who apparently believe that a starting pitcher needs to earn his spot back after being on the DL, because the guy who was holding down the fort did well. I’ve never seen that suggested before. I’m very glad that Hughes rose to the occasion; it makes me hopeful for the future of this team.
Nobody is talking about taking AJ out of the rotation.
The conversation is about who is a better pitcher, or has been, in the last 4 years.
well, considering that Wang’s looked better in each of his appearance, it seems the Yankees are handling this well. kind of early to press the panic button on the strategy!
You’d think with all Wang has done for New York the past four years, he’d be given more of a chance by both management and fans.
Guess not.
i agree that wang needs to start like yesterday.
send hughes down & bring him up when joba goes to the pen.
it just would suck if hughes can help the club more in the majors than in AAA.
Oh, Betsy. Did you read the thread last night? Someone said AJ should be off any postseason roster, and I went off.
I feel silly about it, but people are so narrow-minded when it comes to AJ. Game logs. Read them. Appreciate them.
The best type of pitcher for the new Stadium is one who either causes swingers to miss or one who initiates ground balls.
Fly ball pitchers do well in San Diego but not here.
Wang is a GB type and therefore extremely valuable. And, he’s proved it.
This will all play out.
Ellen,
That’s the way I feel about Hughes. Its not like he’s been lights out. He’s done a nice job. Even Orel Hersheiser, who knows a thing or two about pitching, commented on Hughes’ problems being “between his ears” and how he is doing a “very nice job of overcoming” those issues.
Its a tribute to his growth as a pitcher.
That said, he’s not pitched so well that you tell Chein Ming Wang, “You are our long man for the rest of the year”.
That’s where folks get carried away, IMO.
Doubleheader tomorrow?
“If the Yanks are all in on Hughes him then they want him to develop quickly so they can tout the homegrown product card”
Perhaps. However, isn’t Wang “homegrown” too?
“Put Wang back in the rotation or trade him freeing him to shine somewhere else for the sake of the sport.”
Oh trust me how I would deal him if I could get something for him for the future COF, a Jay Bruce, a Justin Upton, a Matt Kemp, a Andrew Bailey/Ryan Sweeney… but you see here unfortunately we can’t net that for him, so he’s gonna have to just sit and wait his turn, it’s not like he’s sitting in the back of the bus, Wang put himself in this position. It’s not our fault Phil Hughes is starting to wake up.
“Focus, people, focus. The issue is Wang. Not Hughes. Not AJ. Wang.”
lol… I think we’re all in agreement that a healthy CMW needs to start getting starts very soon. The hang-up appears to be what to do with Hughes – SWB (probable), bullpen (50-50), 6-man rotation (unlikely).
Betsy – I don’t think thinking people should get caught up in what talk show hosts say on-air. Their job is to get people to listen, over and over again. A great way to do that is to say controversial things. Whether it’s sports, politics, or anything else, controversy sells. Think of the saying attibuted to TV news shows – “If it bleeds, it leads.” Same thing on radio, without the pictures.
These guys can’t be that dumb. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be able to breathe and pump blood simultaneously. I really believe that, whatever they may really think (assuming they do have original thought), they try to be as “out there” as possible to generate an audience.
Good morning fellas. Am i the only one who sees a 1996-2000 type of swagger on this team? I mentioned it last night, i think teams are finally once again intimidated in having to face us. There were games 10 years ago that were won before the Yanks took the field. Barring injury, i cant see anyone that can match up both offensively and defensively.
Never thought that Texiera had that much fire in him but this team seems to have more fight in them than iv seen in quit sometime. From Pitchers protecting our hitters. To Girardi going out there and defending our players. Something i never really saw with Torre.
In no way has Burnett been better than Wang the last 3 years
Wang was one of the top pitchers in the AL, won 19 game season twice and was 8-2 last year. Burnett wishes he could do that.
The best pitcher is the one who gets the most outs.
No excuses.
I guess I got hit by the imposter bug again in the game threads last night.
I wasn’t around during the game.
Gotta love the game threads! lol From the posting of the lineup, which brings the usual bunch of whackos deciding “Girardi is throwing away another game”, to a whole different set of whackos once the Yankees trail or GASP, lose a game.
Good times had by all!
ellen
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:27 pm
m – exactly. It’s just so odd to read people posting who apparently believe that a starting pitcher needs to earn his spot back after being on the DL, because the guy who was holding down the fort did well. I’ve never seen that suggested before. I’m very glad that Hughes rose to the occasion; it makes me hopeful for the future of this team.
—–
How’d that work out for Wally Pipp?
“Doubleheader tomorrow?”
They might get it in tonight.
Why would Wang know there was weakness in his hip? No pain, no limp.
———————————————————–
I do remember that Wang expressed his concern about losing speed of his pitches several times during ST. Even no pain, the team should see something different
The same people who complain about Francessa and claim they “shut him off”, somehow are able to recite their every word here throughout the day and are obsessed with him and his every word.
And people wonder why his ratings are so high. It is a never ending cycle.
vin,
If I were Brian Cashman, -I’d spend more time under the sun in Hawaii- , I’d send Phil back to Scranton and tell him be prepared in case we need a starter. Let him build up his innings and if and when there’s a decision to make about a postseason roster, Phil’s on it as a long/swing guy.
There is no need to solve the Wang/Hughes issues at one bite.
Just give Wang a start. Pick a spot where he has a good chance to succeed.
If he pitches well, go from there. If he doesn’t, you go from there, too.
“In no way has Burnett been better than Wang the last 3 years
Wang was one of the top pitchers in the AL, won 19 game season twice and was 8-2 last year. Burnett wishes he could do that.”
Please he didn’t even have offense in Toronto, we really going by how many games Wang won w/ this offense, someone drag out a run support stat breakdown w/ AJ and CMW.
Brandon,
Enough of the fantasy trades. You aren’t getting the players you want for Wang. You want to trade Hughes and Montero? Then you start teams talking.
There is a recession and nobody is trading for an arbitration eligible starting pitcher coming off a serious foot injury.
If they did trade for him, and he pitched well, they are looking at a 10 million dollar contract next year. Very, very few teams want to take that on.
Definitely not the Arizona’s, Cincinnati’s, etc of the world.
Ray – I’d have to say that Wally is the exception that proves the rule.
Now, given the talent that replaced him, his story will certainly live forever.
“Good morning fellas. Am i the only one who sees a 1996-2000 type of swagger on this team? I mentioned it last night, i think teams are finally once again intimidated in having to face us. There were games 10 years ago that were won before the Yanks took the field. Barring injury, i cant see anyone that can match up both offensively and defensively. ”
BINGO, I feel the exact same way. It seemed like for years other, lesser teams would “get up” and play like they had nothing to lose against NYY. Now, we’re seeing teams making mental mistakes, errors, walking guys, etc. against our boys. I think the swagger is very much back.
This is just my hunch/opinion. Pettite had to leave the last game with a stiff back, he’s a warrior and will always say he’s fine and go out for his start. My hunch, is that Girardi and Cashman talked yesterday, and they both know they can’t leave Wang to rot in the bullpen, but they also don’t know what they have as far as Pettite and his back situation goes. My hunch, the discussion was, we’ll see what Pettite can bring tomorrow, leave Wang in the bullpen in case Pettite has to come out early and Wang can long relieve. If Pettite looks fine, then they make the decision to send Hughes down, and replace him with Wang in the rotation an call up another reliever/leave Hughes to long relief Wang who would only be able to throw 80 pitches. Watch closely this week how/if they use Wang at all. My guess is, if Pettite goes 6, and looks fine, Wang won’t be used at all, and won’t be used tomorrow or Friday either.
Why not just giving Wang a start?
I bet Wang will get tougher after going through all of this.
He is a quiet guy but he’s determined.
It’s not like Hughes has even been that good.
He has been up and down. Certainly not good enough to warrant our 19 game winner to sit in the bullpen with no plan.
You guys are acting like Hughes has pitched like Porcello.
What if CC gets hurt tomorrow, goes on the DL for a month then returns healthy and ready to go. Would he go into the bullpen for another month waiting for an opportunity or does he go back into the rotation? I would bet everything I own that he goes right back into the rotation.
It’s the same situation with Wang yet instead of getting his job back he’s being forced to throw out of the bullpen. It’s really pretty absurd and has nothing to do with Hughes IMO. It doesn’t matter how well Phil pitches, Wang is an ace and the better pitcher. Hughes is the sixth starter, it’s time he goes back to AAA.
I have no sympathy for Wang. He got hurt, pitched like crap, and now has to deal with the consequences, 2x 19-game winner, or not. It makes no sense to take Hughes or Joba out of the rotation when both are pitching very well.
Pete: you argue that people who think Joba should be in the pen are “stupid”, while you are outraged that Wang is in the pen. If a 6 man rotation isn’t the answer, what’s your solution then? Hughes to AAA? It’s not enough to just say the “Yankees need to figure something out.”
Joe, THAT I agree with.
kph, Hughes ISN’T pitching very well.
SJ44 I said if I could trade him for that I would and that’s the only way I’d trade him, other than that I’m not kicking him out of the team b/c some posters are crying about him being jerked around. Right now he’s in the BP (NOW) he’s in the BP until futher notice. End of story.
Wang finished in the Top 5 of the CY Young voting (#2 to Santana in 06) in 2 consecutive years. Burnett hasn’t even received a CY Young vote in his career.
Don’t worry guys, A.J. will get injured since he always does. Problem solved.
Joe,
Actually, Porcello hasn’t even pitched like Porcello. He’s got his own problems. Finding out the hard way that the AL East is NOT the Central. NYY and Boston both got to the kid.
Hughes will be good. Better than good.
I still think that to learn how to beat Boston we’ll need a bullpen.
“If I were Brian Cashman, I’d spend more time under the sun in Hawaii , I’d send Phil back to Scranton and tell him be prepared in case we need a starter. Let him build up his innings and if and when there’s a decision to make about a postseason roster, Phil’s on it as a long/swing guy.”
Nothing wrong with that thinking. Personally, I’d like to see them get creative and put him in the BP, but I’m not really hung up on it – he can still benefit from pitching in AAA.
As far as Cashman goes, *I* could use some time under the Hawaiian sun. Never saw you mention it, but what island are you on? I’ve been to Kauai and Maui, with a quick layover in Oahu. I think my next trip would be to the big island.
Patrick – no doubt. CC, AJ or Pettitte coming off the DL would go right back into the rotation with no drama.
Wang’s ERA from 06-08 – 3.80
Burnett’s ERA from 06-08 – 3.95
Don’t worry guys, A.J. will get injured since he always does. Problem solved.
====================================
Oh that’s right. I forgot
Are we taking bets on when this “injury” happens?
it’s time to give Wang a shot.
S.A.–Let’s get ready to rumble!,I’m calling his last start in June. I think that’s the over/under.
SJ44, Hershiser loves Phil – thinks he’ll be a star (I agree), but as you said, he doesn’t think Phil is a finished product. I adore the kid, but there is no decision to make. Wang, when ready, gets inserted back into the rotation and Phil goes down. He’s a smart, hard-working kid. He will pitch , pitch and pitch some more – that by itself will help him. Eventually, he’ll be recalled again. This has been a really good year for Phil – at 22, he’s regained a lot of his lost luster. He’s going to be exceptional, I think.
Also, SJ – I thought that was you last night because sometimes you pop in – but the suggestion to remove AJ sounded too ludicrous to come from you. What did you think of his performance and also his “payback” to Cruz?
SJ44,
Im not sure if youv answered this already. Have you been posting on game threads during the game? Half of us think its a fraud and the other half dont.
vin,
Oahu. Definitely make the trip to the Big Island. Volcano’s going off. The northwest side of the island is beautiful. Gorgeous. Swaths of ranch land with emerald green grass. Snowcapped mountains in the winter. It’s like a mini-continent with its different biospheres.
Put Wang in the rotation or else trade him freeing him to shine somewhere else for the sake of baseball. Afterall who messed up Wang’s rehab from his on-the-job injury last year causing him the 3 poor starts in April? Wang has performed professionally and business like, while Yankees management screwed up and failed Wang. The way he is being treated, his career is ruined by the Yanks.
“CC, AJ or Pettitte coming off the DL would go right back into the rotation with no drama.”
Like SJ said, Wang needs better representation. It’s an angle I hadn’t thought about. There might not be this drama if the Yanks were given a push or if the agent started making noise.
tonyb
My plan would be to sub Wang for Hughes in the rotation, move Phil to the bullpen and use him and Aceves as your two dominant bullpen relievers. Rather than go for 1 inning relief stints, I let those two guys throw multiple innings per game to minimize the damage our other relievers are causing. Mendoza style.
Phil doesn’t have anything left to learn in the minors. He needs to get ML hitters out and he can do that out of the pen (worked for santana). When we need a spot start, he’s the man. When Joba gets near the innings limit, I swap the two and return joba to the pen.
Problem solved. Team=improved.
Tony has it right IMHO…
Finally someone else calling for Hughes to stay with the big league club!
Did not Joe G. say that the next time they brought up Hughes it would be for good?
m,
Porcello is 6-4 with a 3.70 ERA a 1.25 WHIP as a 20 yr old in the AL, without pitching a game above A-Ball.
Hughes has a 5.45 ERA and a 1.50 WHIP.
And if we want to take out starts to skew ERA, we can do the same with Porcello.
Bottom line, Hughes has not been lighting it up. He has shown flashes, but that is it. In no way is he better right now than an effective Wang. The way people are talking about him, you would think he was.
Also, I am not ready just yet to put Wang back into the rotation
Hey SJ44 – thanks for your thoughtful and balanced posts on the CMW situation. I really feel like I’m learning something about baseball when I read your comments. Keep it up!
The only problem with Hughes in the bullpen, is that we’ll end up with the same problem for next season. IP count issues. The goal being that he’ll eventually replace Andy’s 200 IP.
Otherwise, it’d be a fine idea.
“It’s like a mini-continent with its different biospheres.”
That sounds so cool. It’ll probably be in 2011 – we’re planning to go Europe next year (fingers crossed).
Hughes should go to the minors now, be called up when Joba reaches the innings cap, then replace Pettite next year.
Sports is not about being “fair”. You don’t have to treat CC and Wang the same.
Presumably the Yanks are not perverse. Presumably they want to pitch their five best starters. I can’t imagine, if they thought Wang was one of those five, that they would keep him out of the rotation just because (hypothetically) they don’t like him.
The Yanks must think that, right now, Hughes in the rotation gives them a better chance to win. I don’t want to go all Trisha-like about this, but I am willing to give the Yanks the benefit of the doubt on this.
I do say, give him a start and see how he does, though.
When AJ goes on the DL, you can always re-call Hughes. It’s not like the kid is going to be banished forever. He’s still going to get more starts later even if he gets sent down
I really do feel bad for Wang. Yes, I realize he was horrific in his 3 starts and deserves some blame, but it is mind boggling how the the situation is right now. I still can’t believe Wang is in the bullpen right now.
Lonz June 3rd, 2009 at 1:53 pm
When AJ goes on the DL
==============================
When is this happening again?
Joe,
Fair enough. Personally, I don’t bother myself with phenoms the Yankees can’t place their hands on. That includes Porcello, Lincecum, Price (he’s had trouble adjusting, too), and Strausberg.
If Wang weren’t ready, I’d love to keep Hughes in for the season so that he has a fair chance to learn how to be consistent. Fate had other plans for Phil, and he’s still holding his head high.
But if Wang’s ready, that’s the correct baseball decision. If this were September, maybe you don’t want to upset the apple cart. But we’re at the 1/3 “poll”. Plenty of time to tinker and adjust.
“homegrown”
Now there’s a Sox Nation term.
Sox Nation takes pride in the “homegrown” vs “bought” gripe with NY. They loved Manny, Papi, Pedro, Schilling, Damon, Beckett as their own despite being “aquisitions”. They’re generally not fooling themselves but some may not even realize that they WERE aquisitions. However they dismiss guys on the Yanks as “bought” of they were traded to the Yanks when they were draft picks or prospects, or if they were given bonuses as draft picks by the Yanks. They accept guys like Laptop or the Pedroiaphile as “homegrown” if a Yank draft pick was given a higher bonus when they were signed. Never mind that they were drafted.
Further, Posada, Mo, Williams, Pettitte, Wang, Joba, Hughes … all these guys are questionable when compared to SN’s loveable Sox mercenaries because they signed (or eventually will sign) a big buck contact with the team they grew up on and well-intended, low-buck blue collar teams like the Pirates, the Royals, the Marlins, the Nats and the Red Sox just don’t do that.
SN make it sound like a guy would have had to be conceived in a petri dish by Yanks scientists in order to be a “homegrown” Yankee. Even then …
Sorry for the Anti-Sox rant … couldn’t control it.
As you were, everybody.
Wave, I’m not suggesting that the Yankees have to be fair. I’m just pointing out that the perception of Wang is very different than the perception of other pitchers. Wang is a freaking ace and the Yankees don’t have him in the rotation!
It just doesn’t make sense to me. Wang, when healthy, will help this team a lot more than Phil Hughes.
“I don’t want to go all Trisha-like about this…”
Oh snap!
“…but I am willing to give the Yanks the benefit of the doubt on this.”
To some extent I agree, Wave. I just think they should make their plans known to Wang. But Wang has no idea and deserves better than that. Given that he has done so well over the years, those plans should include some clear path back to the rotation.
The most disturbing part is that it doesn’t even appear that the Yankees have a plan.
If Hughes gets shelled against Tampa, does he go down?
If Hughes pitches well, does he get another start?
What if he pitches OK, and Wang comes in and throws a couple scoreless?
where do they go from here? What do they need to see exactly? He’s throwing 93, getting groundballs.
I don’t see the big issue here with Wang. While the Yankees have gotten very good starting pitching for the past few weeks, prior to that time it was very inconsistent. The Yankees have starters who have had injury issues in the past (Andy and AJ) and the young pitchers (Hughes and Joba) have not gone deep into games with the exception of their recent starts.
All this points to the strong likelihood that a starting slot will open up due to an injury or skipped start for Andy or AJ, or the Yankees will need someone to go 4 or more innings in relief of Hughes or Joba one of these days.
All of these contingencies point to failure on some level, so the Yankees can’t just come out and state that they are planning on it, but in a way they are and that is why Wang is staying in the pen for now.
to Brandon.. Hughes took your spot WANG !
AJ DIDN’T have the offense in Toronto but he did have a very good defense behind him last year in Blue Jays.
besides the more I think Wang’s situation the more I feel that Cashman didn’t like what Wang gave him the past three years,two bad starts in playoffs and three horrible starts early this season have ruined all he has done the past three years for the yanks .No manager would say something like
this ( “His contract says baseball player, not starting pitcher.” from http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....egs-12358/)to disrespect a player who have won 19 games two year in a row and was called the ace by his GM .
“The most disturbing part is that it doesn’t even appear that the Yankees have a plan.”
EXACTLY
“Pettitte (5-1) has given up eight homers this year, with seven coming at home.”
Someone teach that old dog some new tricks!
Wang in Limbo,
It’s not like Cashman has exactly shown he is the most compassionate person in the world. He is a straight shooter. He is often times pessimistic as well. That’s his nature.
Not that it has anything to do with CMW, but what exactly does “Wang Chung” mean? Is it a sexual reference, since everyone is supposed to Wang Chung tonight?
kph -
Wang didn’t get hurt on purpose. It’s not like he played basketball in the off-season and got himself hurt. He got hurt running the bases in a game he was pitching and winning for this team.
I have nothing BUT sympathy for Wang. He did not ask for these circumstances. He did not come into camp out of shape because he didn’t file like doing the off-seasons work. He was following the teams’s advice as to what he should/should not do over the off-season.
He seems to be dealing with it as best he can. Not sure I’d be as reticent.
Patrick-
If and when Wang is back to his former level of effectiveness, he must of course be back in the rotation. At his best, he’s one of the best pitchers in the AL, let alone the Yankees.
The perception of Wang, right now, has to have been affected by his first three starts. Maybe he’s past that, but it’s possible he’s not. Two straight successful relief outings doesn’t necessarily mean Wang has regained his former level.
I don’t think the Yanks have a “pecking order”. I don’t think they think that Hughes has to lose the spot before Wang has a chance for it. I have no way of knowing, of course, but the simplest explanation is that the Yanks’ aren’t sufficiently confident that Wang is back.
* because he didn’t “feel” like doing the work, not file.
Joe G and Brian Cashman will greet fans in the Great Hall today at 4pm.
girardi and cashman GRETEING FANS at 4pm in the great hall tonight….
HAAA HAAA HAHAA, guess they know rain is coming and want 3 hours of liquor/steak sales???? hmmmm
Francessa reporting that Brian Cashman and Joe Girardi will be greeting fans today at the game who enter through the great hall.
GREETING
I did not the Hudson was at Yankee Stadium last night, can she be here for the Mets/Red Sox series.
Damn are they a quiet couple.:?
1st post FAIL !
I did not know the Hudson was at Yankee Stadium last night, can she be here for the Mets/Red Sox series.
Damn are they a quiet couple.
Kevlar,
Excellent post. There is no rhyme or reason to what they are doing. Wang is getting inconsistent work and isin’t getting anything accomplished. He can’t throw bullpen sessions normally because you don’t know when you might need him.
He is a “long man”, but only in blowouts or if a starter goes out before 4 innings. When Joba went out after 4, they went to Aceves. He has no role.
You have to wonder if they are even interested in him returning healthy. There doesn’t seem to be a place for him right now.
Leave it to the Yankees to mess up even the simplest of PR opportunities. Why announce this at 2PM on the day they are doing this?
SO if someone wanted to actually be meeted and greeted by these two but didn’t hear about it until now it could be too late to change their plans in terms of getting there at 4PM.
I would think especially for those with kids it could be a good opportunity but if you dont listen to WFAN today you might not even hear about it.
Fans need to go down with their *Free Wang* shirts and tell the duo to meet them under the O’neill banner.
If AJ had been ejected yesterday in the 5th, he wouldn’t have qualified for the win lol
“it’s gotta be killing wang that kei igawa and carl pavano evidently deserved more respect from cashman.”
************************************************
Thats a good point, Kasey.
That quote might be true, but its rather staggering coming from a man who has gone out of his way to tip toe around potentially saying anything to hurt Carl Pavano’s fragile feelings. Even going so far as to defend him at times.
They’ve certainly done the old military SNAFU affect on this particular issue. Ugh.
Hope someone asks Cashman what the heck he is doing with Wang
And that’s coming from someone who has generally been fairly supportive of Brian Cashman.
This Wang situation handling has been a bit of a cluster…
Long term the best solution is to send Hughes down and give Wang some starts to see if he is truly back. Wang re-establishes himself and Hughes keeps accumulating innnings to further his development.
Short term the best solution is Joba to the bullpen and Hughes and Wang in the rotation. Sort term solutions that undermine long term planning are always a bad idea.
Seems pretty simple to me, Mr. Hughes, your flight to Scranotn leave as noon Saturday… seeya soon.
“Fans need to go down with their Free Wang shirts and tell the duo to meet them under the O’neill banner”
Cash was called Crash in HS and GI Joe looks like he could kick a few so meet them under the O’neill banner AYOR
I’m wondering if the Yankees have at least an outline of what they’d like to happen with Wang. I can’t believe they have no idea at all. I do believe they don’t want to share anything with anyone as far as what they are thinking. This is standard Yankee OP.
What isn’t so good is that it seems like they’re not sharing any info with Wang. Or if they are, it’s not making any sense to him or not alleviating any of his concerns. Or it doesn’t matter – if he’s not pitching, he’s not happy (and I don’t necessarily blame him for that).
I’m on board with wang. FREE WANG!!!!
The more I think of this the more I feel we should be lucky that this is the biggest driving subject at hand with the Yankees, should Wang get back his spot over Hughes, etc.
If that is all we have to talk about then I know things are going well hence the best record in the AL.
Oh what an issue to have. Like I said Wang will get his turn in the rotation and after that it is up to him to produce like a front line starter and not cost his team the game in the first inning, he will not stay out of the rotation forever. Something tells me after that Boston Series Wang will be back in the rotation, the rest will be up to him.
Remember his performances hurt this team big time early in the season, the bullpen was being used all in his starts to cove 6,7,8 innings and drained for the next day. Forgive the Yankees if they are weary of if he is truly strong and ready to step out there and pitch regularly. Remember Joe has consistently said when he goes back in we want him pitching every 5th day. No more OMG what is wrong with Wang scenario all over again, like the start of the season. When he goes in he stays in is the way the Yankees want Wang’s return to the rotation to be.
Roy Hallady is incredible.. 133 pitches
m June 3rd, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Fans need to go down with their Free Wang shirts and tell the duo to meet them under the O’neill banner.
=========================
Word
Here’s another pitcher’s first four starts to a season.
5.1 ip, 5 er
5.1 ip, 4 er (L)
3.1 ip, 9 er (L)
4.0 ip, 9 er (L)
A lot of people probably thought that pitcher was done– or that he probably didn’t deserve a starting rotation spot.
However, we were talking about a pitcher with a proven track record. In fact, he didn’t even miss a start and finished the season with a 2.70 ERA.
That pitcher was CC Sabathia LAST YEAR.
We can’t forget that, however terrible, we are talking about 3 starts. Baseball has a way of normalizing over large sample sizes. The main reasons, when it doesn’t, are usually injuries or managerial/g.m. decisions that don’t allow these larger sample sizes from being carried out. If Wang is healthy, he needs a chance in the rotation, and he needs it soon.
I touched on this yesterday. Wouldnt we be better putting Hughes in the pen as a long man and seeing what we might be able to get for Aceves? His stock is high right now and we need 7th/8th inning guys. Maybe an outfielder for next year. Can we get anything for Aceves and some prospects?
Plus Hughes doesnt seem to be confortable with all his pitches. It looks like he is trying to survive with 2 pitches in his reportaire per game. What happened to that nasty curve?
—–> new post
Cashman and Girardi aren’t “True Yankees”! “Real Yankee Fans” know it!
SJ
I personally believe the Yankees have a plan. The plan is to decide on Wang after the Boston series. I suspect they are concerned with Andy’s back and want Wang for that spot if necessary. Also, I believe the Yankee brass want to see what Hughes does in Boston. If he sets them down, it will be a big pyschological boost for the Yankees and a Sox Nation fan feeding frenzy of being behind the Yankee pitching depth. BTW, I really like Wang as a Yankee starter between CC & AJ too. Wang will get a start soon and maybe a long-relief appearance soon as well.
The Yankees are playing well now. I believe Veras needs a 15 Day DL stint to get his arm back.
SOS,
Wasn’t me in the game thread last night.
Betsy,
One thing AJ has established himself to be is a good teammate.
That’s one thing this team has going for itself this year. They all have each other’s backs. That does make a difference as the season goes on.
Personally, I think AJ can pitch better than he has so far this year. I would like to see him use his changeup more.
Listening to his post-game interview, I see where the problem lies when catching AJ. He said he felt “so strong tonight, I figured it was good to throw more heaters”.
That’s one problem he needs to correct. Just because he feels strong, it doesn’t mean you throw all fastballs. Especially to a fastball hitting team.
Greg Maddux used to say when he is struggling in an inning, he throws SLOWER because hitters aren’t expecting it.
When AJ struggles, he tries throwing HARDER and that leads to problems. That’s what hurt him last night and it almost cost him more than just 3 runs.
That’s a part of his game I hope he corrects. He has a good enough changeup to mix it in more, especially when he’s struggling, in games.
Just a matter of having the confidence to throw it more often.
”
kasey
…
he then came out of the bullpen and gave up two runs in three innings.
he followed that with three scoreless innings last week.
the guy has been awful this year, but for the exception of THREE INNINGS. ”
kasey,
You missed two scoreless innings before the 3 scoreless innings!!
So the real situation is: Wang had terrible 6 innings at the beginning of the season due the the injury. Then after he came back from rehab, he had two so-so innnings and 6 shutout innings!
Considering his track record, don’t you think that the 6 bad innings were the true EXCEPTIONS!
NOT the good 6 shutout innings Wang throw lately!
“Phil Hughes has pitched well enough to stay in the rotation. ”
I don’t agree with that at all.. He’s had 2 good games out his 7 starts. Wang is far more valuable healthy and starting than Hughes. Send Hughes back down and stop playing games.. They could bring him back up for the pen later in the year.
Did I miss something when the Yankees said they consider Wang a Starter. Cmon folks the team is playing well and we are here saying the Yankees have no plan for Wang, he is going to be rusty, Phil Hughes should be moved to the pen, sent to the minors, 6 man rotation.
Do we honestly believe the Yankees don’t have some idea of what they will do with Wang. Time and time again they have said he is a starter and have to wait for his chance to get back in the rotation.
Maybe the Yankees don’t want Wang returning to face Tampa Bay who tattooed him earlier in the season for 8 runs in 1 inning or Boston who usually seem to be very comfortable against him, those would be the next two starts he would make, nothing prevents him from coming into the game when Hughes starts those games and maybe only goes 5 innings. I think folks need to look at the schedule and see when it is opportune for Wang to be slotted back in, Tampa and Boston are not the teams the Yankees would return him against, he likely starts after that.
———————————————–
Maybe the Yankees don’t want Wang returning to face Tampa Bay who tattooed him earlier in the season for 8 runs in 1 inning or Boston who usually seem to be very comfortable against him—————————————————–
Well, Indian beat Wang for 8 scores in one inning early this season and Wang returned in his relief with 3 scoreless innings.
And, CUYanks, good posting about CC’s last year’s first 4 starts, it’s indeed better than Wang’s 3 starts this year. hahaha, and Yankeeys still bought CC to NY with $MMMMMM of dollors. I believe many GMs are interested in Wang if Cash trash Wang to the trade market.
“So the real situation is: Wang had terrible 6 innings at the beginning of the season due the the injury. Then after he came back from rehab, he had two so-so innnings and 6 shutout innings!
Considering his track record, don’t you think that the 6 bad innings were the true EXCEPTIONS!
NOT the good 6 shutout innings Wang throw lately!”
Ah, you make it sound like he is a reliever, 6 terrible innings. It’s actually 3 terrible starts which is far more damaging because he starts the game and then the team has to use up the bullpen to cover 7,8 more innings of the game all in a losing effort. His starts wasn’t isolated to him, it affected the way the pen was used as well.
Like you I look forward to seeing him return to the rotation but I don’t see why the Yankees need to rush it, the team is playing well and when he is called upon he will have to step up and pitch like a frontline starter and not what we saw at the start of the season. His time will come and I hope he seizes it and keeps this team in games with a chance to win, that is what Hughes has done in most of his starts which is why he is still getting starts.
Maybe the Yankees don’t want Wang returning to face Tampa Bay who tattooed him earlier in the season for 8 runs in 1 inning or Boston who usually seem to be very comfortable against him——————————————————————————-
“Well, Indian beat Wang for 8 scores in one inning early this season and Wang returned in his relief with 3 scoreless innings.”
Exactly, which is why I said nothing prevents him from coming into those games against Tampa and/or Boston should Phil Hughes only pitch 4 or 5 innings. I just don’t think the Yankees are ready to throw Wang out there against two solid offensive teams at this time.
For example the June 16 game at home is against the Washington Nationals, I could see the Yankees bringing him back at that point, perfect time.
i think most people who don’t value wang as one of the best pitchers in baseball simply are making a decision based on limited facts. there is a lot going on behind the scenes much more than the average fan would imagine.
for instance, i was told by someone close to wang that he was so angry over the arbritration hearing in 2008 that he was going to walk when his free agency came up. that of course can change once the heat of the moment passes.
but how does it pass when the yankees ate ticking him off again. at some point this isn’t going to be the yankees choice. wang will walk if they push him far enough and the scenario may not be so far fetched about him pitching for the red sox or rays against the yankees.
there is another behind the scenes factor in this. as everyone knows cashman has his stat people in his attempt to catch up to the red sox in this regard. i ‘ve heard from reliable source that these stat people two years ago did not believe that wang could keep winning while having such a low strike out rate.
the theory being they encouraged cashman to encourage his pitching coaches to turn wang into more of a strike out pitcher and wanted his secondary pitches pushed. this may be a back story to the tension between the yankees and wang.
wang the sinker baller appears not to be loved by cashman’s stat people. cashman’s position on this appears to be with his stat people in wanting to change wang. the problem is it isn’t working.
wang this year is likely going deeper into the doghouse with cashman’s stat people and they didn’t appreciate him in the first place.
i like wang the person and the player. if the yankees are going to mess with him, i’d just as soon they release him and let him get on with his career.
he doesn’t need the BS from cashman’s stat guys and from cashman if that indeed is what is happening .
oh, i don’t disagree put Wang in BP, but Girardi needs to give him some more innings to work his arm strength back. Or, give him one start to evaluate his progress. THIS SHOULD BE THE WANG PLAN that Yankees should mention/discuss with Wang instead of “you are a starter but you have to be patient to wait for your chance”, which is BS and disrespectful. Noting to do with PH, but the plan should be there and clear.
My two cents. Long relief is to test Wang’s velocity and ball movement/sink, and one start is to see if he can throw more than 80 pitches. We have 2/3 of the season to go, why not prepare ourselves now? Decision could be made after these tests.
Keeping six good starting pitchers in a team’s system is good, but not keeping them in a major league rotation.
Now Wang can’t give Yanks enough counts when Yanks needs him to be a starting pitcher immediately. If anyone in the rotation gets injury, the Yanks will not have a qualified starting pitcher to give them enough innings; that might give more pressures to the weak bullpen now Yanks has.
Yanks needs a backup starting pitcher in farm for calling up when anyone in rotation gets injury, especially Joba, Andy and A.J. are not strong enough in their past pitching histories. Obviously, Wang is not the first chocie because there is no option to send him down to AAA.
I just want to refute some ridiculous view on this thread.
(1) Hughes is doing well and he deserves to be in the rotation.
Wrong. I agree Hughes is doing well, but I think that was quite independent to whether Wang should return. Even Jirardi said that once, but obviously he lied. Cervelli can be doing well, but once Jorge is ready, he has to step back.
(2) The team is doing well now and the team gets more priority than individual.
True. But treating Wang like this will definitely backfire at some point. Just imagine if you were Wang are you going to stay with this team when you become a free agent? Do you want to see Wang pitching for Yankees in 2012? Yeah, of course, people here would say no, especially those Wang traders. Yankees is damaging relationship with its home-grown pitcher and the price has to be paid. I would say if they dare do the same thing to C.C once, C.C would simply opt-out 3 years later. That’s of course a happy ending.
When Hiroki Kuroda of the Dodgers came back from injury, they inserted him into the rotation right away. This is the team leading the NL in wins right now.
Joe Torre inserted Kuroda RIGHT AWAY. This pitcher was the opening day pitcher, dubbed the team’s interim ‘ace’.
Wang, who was the former ace and is now dubbed #2, comes back from injury and demonstrates he’s fine. And yet, he has to ‘earn’ his spot back… from a rookie.
What an insult.
When Alex came back, he didn’t have to ‘earn’ his spot back, they thrust him in there right away.
“For example the June 16 game at home is against the Washington Nationals, I could see the Yankees bringing him back at that point, perfect time.”
To Cal:
Then make the announcement. Clear all doubt from the media and the fans. That is what we called “RESPECT”. Waiting to see how Hughes doing in the next two starts to decide whether that’s the case is disrespectful.
With the exception being that Wang was not injured in the true sense of being HURT, if you get my drift, Kuroda, Arod, Posada were all physically hurt.
Wang on the other hand had a made up injury after coming back from an entire offseason, because his performance was dreadful. I don’t argue he shouldn’t be returned to the rotation, the only question I have is what is the rush, if he pitches today, next week or the week after that, he will pitch.
“Then make the announcement. Clear all doubt from the media and the fans. That is what we called “RESPECT”. Waiting to see how Hughes doing in the next two starts to decide whether that’s the case is disrespectful.”
The Yankees aren’t going to announce that if anything Wang will be notified and prepare for that but they aren’t going to put it in stone for the media, at that point Hughes will likely either move to the pen or be optioned down depending on how he fares in the next two outings.
Like often stated these things have a way of taking care of themselves because other issues come up that aren’t expected. Baseball is a grinding marathon. Wang is still in line to make 15+ starts.
To Cal:
They did make some announcement on A-rod’s return.
Sure, things could change. Maybe somebody hurts himself this week and Wang got the ball immediately. But that doesn’t change the fact they can make SOME announcement.
I actually think working him back in as a reliever isn’t a bad way to go about this … you get a chance to see how he does over a few innings, instead of the pressure of an entire game.
I truly don’t get this at all. Wang has proven he can pitch and pitch well at this level. Hughes on the other hand has been inconsistent and erratic. This is an easy decision. If he is healthy, then he is in the rotation. Hughes still has options and can pitch every fifth day in the minors. From there they could decide what the long term plan is, but right now they are hurting Wang by not letting him pitch. They can’t seem to make the right decisions when it comes to roster moves. If they want to keep two backup infielders, then surely there is someone out there better than Berroa.
Those who said putting Wang in pen is okay or sending Hughes or Joba to pen does not hurt do not understand this game. Reliever is one of the most attrition role. You don’t know when you are going to pitch next. Just tell me, is Wang going to pitch today or tomorrow? If you were Wang, how are you going to be prepared? Same applies to those 6-man rotation supporters. There is a thing called rhythm in pitching which you don’t want to mess up. Now Wang not only loses its regular outing schedule, he also loses his bullpen session he normally does when he is in the rotation. Same would happen to Hughes or Joba if you send any one of them to pen. People will never understand the importance because, guess what, most guys here are not pitchers.
It is the Yanks’ medical “talents” plus Cash’s FO messed up Wang’s rehab in the winter that caused the 3 poor starts. Wang made a big mistake to follow Yanks’ recipe of recovering from the injury inflicted on him while performing his duty. But then again, what if he did not follow the instructions? Wang did not drunk-driving his sport car smacking the walls. So don’t tell me Wang is TOTALLY responsible personally for the mess because of the 3 poor starts in April.
The FO owes the fans an explanation of what the immediate remedies are for mopping up the mess they created.
It is so obvious. Cash messed it up, Cash cleans it up, Period. If Cash coldly finds CMW no longer serves Yanks’ business plan and his ego of popping up Hughes at the expenses of others, frees him so Wang can PITCH, PITCH, PITCH…somewhere else. As simple as that.
And I agree CMW needs a mean yet professional/business-like agent to represent his best interest countering Cash’s cold-blooded and Yanks’own-best-interest-driven attitude of wheelings and dealings. I get the feeling that CMW is done with the Yanks no matter what happens next.
“I actually think working him back in as a reliever isn’t a bad way to go about this … you get a chance to see how he does over a few innings, instead of the pressure of an entire game.”
Which has been one of my sentiment and why I stated they may bring him back for the Nationals series at home. They aren’t just going to throw him into the rotation, when they can start Hughes and if Hughes doesn’t go deep into the games against Tampa or Boston they can then bring in Wang out of the pen to pitch multiple innings against tough hitters.
I just don’t think they are ready to put him out there from inning 1 against Tampa and Boston, with all the issues Wang has had they may just be playing it safe and wait for a much more subuded matchup to start him, hence Washington.
Without question Phil Hughes should be sent to the bullpen for the rest of this season so Wang, who only had the best winning percentage in all of baseball since he became a starter before this season, can return to the starting rotation where he belongs. Don’t resign Pettitte again next season and slide Hughes back in the rotation in his place. The Yanks need bullpen help this year anyhow, Hughes would help address that. I don’t know what they’re waiting for. This is seriously a huge slap in the fact to Wang, I would be insulted if I were this guy. I would seriously want out, although he’s stuck. Girardi is handling this horribly.
Wang should start. Hughes should be a long reliever. I cannot understand why this is not already happening. There is nothing else left to say about it.
I feel that Wang pitches with more fire and intensity now. He was good before, but he pitches like he wants to eat the batters. Swing-and-miss sinkers. I think the disrespect from Yankees drives him.
I also feel that “not rocking the boat when things go well” is a laughable reason not to put Wang back to rotation. By the same logic, Yankees had a record of 10-5 when Cervelli played. Posada should “earn his way” back to starter. Yankees can’t afford Posada to “mess up” the chemistry. If you find this statement ridiculous, while Posada is a everyday player (though he is not now), how bad can Wang mess up the chemistry while he is an every-5-day pitcher?
BTW, to me fearing Wang facing Tempa or RedSox is just a joke. Who are you going to use when the game is tie at 6th inning and the starting pitcher has to be replaced? Veras, yes.
There are only two status, Wang is right and Wang is not right. I do think figuring out the answer is one of the top priority Yankees has right now. You can disagree and the organization certainly disagrees. Sure, winning the game is important, but that’s short-sighted. We are still at the first third of the season. Would you rather try to find the answer in September? What Yankess’s management does right now is putting their head in the sand and hope they can delay the decision as long as possible.
Facing which team does not change the fact. So you’d rather Yankees claims Wang is ready when he cruises against Washington but later gets bombed by RedSox in the second half of the season?
My main concerns are (1) Wang won’t get enough pitching as they still prepare him as a starter but let him work as a relief. His arm strength will fade away soon. He will never start this season. He will not be prepared to throw 80-100 pitches a game. Then, he is doomed to fail again as a starter later this season. If this happen late in the season, it will cost Yankee’s another WS trophy.
(2) If they do not decide whom to stay in rotation soon, it will create a hazardous competition environment. All other starters will not admit injury/hurt/discomfort of any sort because they are afraid of losing its starter spot. Hughes won’t say anything because he will lose his chance. Pettite will not say anything because he will lose his incentive. Joba will not say anything because he is in the same situation as Hughes. They will try so hard until one day the injury really catch up. And believe me, it will be really serious one. If this may cost their carrier, it is Yankee management’s fault. This is a player’s life, not just Yankee could win 10, 20 games streek.
This is what I really worry about.