Today in The Journal News
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- June
- 11
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Chien-Ming Wang had another rough night as the Yankees again fell to the Red Sox.
CC Sabathia will face the Red Sox for the first time as a Yankee tonight. This notebook also has updates on the draft, Brian Bruney, Xavier Nady, A-Rod and a rescheduling.
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on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 9:02 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
I think everyone is too hung up on this 0-7 against the Red Sox. Sure, we’d like to win the games to increase a lead in the AL East and we’d like to have faith in our starters against their lineup. However, the Red Sox are 1 game up on us after winning SEVEN against us. If we were even in terms of talent, they should be AT LEAST 5 games up by now. Pick apart the schedules all you want but all in all we’ve played better throughout the season than they have
Jorge was very ticked off last night
I was at the game and after he made the last out he kicked the screen in front of the dugout
Joge wasn’t along, most Yankees fans were discouraged by the loss.
I am not worried.
That being said, we NEED to win tonight, tie the lead and then get the hell out of Dodge…
We dont see the Sox until August and a win tonight will give them back atleast a little of the mental edge Boston has.
The Yanks seemed as frustrated last night as we were. When Girardi was asked about Wang starting again he said something like how do I know 7 minutes after the game. A lot different than the way he protected Burnett after Tuesday’s game.
I don’t Wang as coming back, sorry. His arm is shot. Either a very long rehab or you got to cut him loose. Something happened and it’s not working out.
I wrote a while back that Wang should get at least three starts, but after seeing the regression in start number two I’m not so sure. He looks pretty hopeless out there.
Did anyone else think Rick Sutcliffe broke the world secord for inane comments last night?
I sure hope this year’s draft turns out better than last year… how could it not? Maybe next year the Yankees will use their # 1 pick on someone healthy who wants to play pro ball just for the hell of it.
Heathcott isn’t unhealthy 86, he seems to not have lost much as a result of the ACL injury and came back from it really quickly–plus he has all the tools and is a high-schooler that the Yankees will be able to sign and hold on to for years, and who knows maybe he actually develops into something. The questions around him are more make-up/off the field stuff.
86w183
ha-ha even Shelley Duncan said he had the game on mute, couldn’t stand to listen to him.
“Texiera is awesome. Unbelievable how fast he turned April around. Watched the game w the mute button on. Sutcliffe can be too much sometimes”
from twitter
i think wang should get another start but understand if he doesn’t get it.
my reasoning is if we can get lucky & straighten him out we are 6 deep in the rotation instead of 5.
the question is what to do with wang?
he has to accept a minor league assignment i believe & he said i won’t blame the yankees for putting me back in the pen leads me to believe that he won’t.
also his velocity is up so it will be harder to fake an injury.
that aside i think hughes is turning into a good pitcher at 22 years old.
i would of loved to see the outcome of last nights game with hughes starting.
Give Wang a couple more starts. Posada’s right, he’s earned that much. If Wang tanks again and again, then maybe it’s time to think ‘bullpen for the season’ and/or ‘trade’.
Wang has little value if he’s performing like he has so far, but it’s not going to stay like this. He will be a good pitcher again. But Posada’s also right in that the Yanks need to see it soon. Unfortunately it might not happen until later this year or even next year. He’d have more trade value then.
Is there a Wang-centered package (him, plus one or two of our OF’s, and/or one or two prospects) that could be part of a deal worked out with the Nats for acquiring Strasburg a year later? Yanks would take a hit on this year’s deal, acquiring primarily average and less accomplished players, but have an ‘unoffical agreement’ to get Strasburg in another trade next year, with some other player involved then too.
It would probably have to be pending how Wang does in 2010, and with the understanding that Strasburg will be under use limitations determined by the Yanks for that year. Let’s say Wang does well, maybe he goes 17-6 with a 3.55 for Washington, then part two of the deal it would kick in. Yanks would then agree to pay whatever deal (after their approval of course) the Nats and Strasburg come to terms on. Or something like that.
OK let’s say for the Nats sake that Wang tanks all year in ‘10. There could be a threshold where there’s no Strasburg deal the next year. For our sake, let’s say he does well and Strasburg comes up lame in ‘10, the deal’s off and Wang gets ‘traded’ back for a bag of peanuts. Or something like that.
Wang’s still relatively cheap, which is a plus for the Nats. They only have to pay him more if he bounces back and earns sommands a better deal. But the amount of this next contract could be less than just the signing bonus Boras will be asking for Strasburg. How about the cost to Yanks? OK, how much was spent on Igawa?
This is all assuming StrasBoras reject whatever the Nats offer them first.
If the Yankees weren’t ticked about losing (to anyone) then there’s a problem.
Seems like Shelley is towing the company line on hating ESPN and specifically Rick Sutcliffe. One random thing I loved out of Joe Torre post-2000 was how much he hated ESPN and never really tried to hide it.
Bru – Wang’s out of options, so the Yanks can’t even offer him a minor league assignment. They have to decide to keep him or trade him.
It’s looking bad for the Yankees right now and a lot of people are depressed so here’s a dose of optimism.
Wang looked better last night. No matter how down you are on the guy, look at his pure stuff. His sinker had a ton of downward movement all night and his velocity is the best we’ve ever seen it. The control wasn’t there but at the very least he was missing down.
I’m not sure if Wang needs to go back on the DL and work in the minors but going back to the bullpen is simply not an option. The stuff is there, if he can keep throwing I *guarantee* we will see the Wang of old this season.
Unfortunately the long innings really did him in and without better command he will never have quick innings. I think if he could have limited those long innings to 15-20 pitches rather than 25-40 he could have gotten his pitchcount up to 85.
Another positive – the bullpen is looking a lot better recently. Coke, Aceves and Robertson are all at once becoming very useful pitchers. I think they can stick long-term and really help the team.
0-7 hurts but put it in perspective, can the Yankees really expect to take 2 or 3 in Fenway? That is just not reasonable. I said before the series that 1 out of 3 should be the minimum goal and with Sabathia going tonight that’s still obtainable.
I hope and am pretty sure we win tonight (unless our bullpen has an epic meltdown, which is possible. Happened to the Rays last year.) But even if we did win the final game this series sucked. Winning tonight is almost like a consolation prize, like, “And for putting forth a valiant effort, you get 1 win!”.
What sucks most is that we put a dent in that vaunted Red Sox pen but it didn’t matter.
Interestingly, there was never a point in that game I thought we’d win. Even after all the comebacks. You had the sense all night, even after us mounting the comeback, that the Red Sox had an Ace in the hole, like everything was going their way.
I’m sure we’ll win tonight. Just wait until they try and win on OUR turf. Then we’ll show em.
As of right now, it’s almost impossible toargue that we’re better than the Red Sox.
Also, Bru, I Agree Hughes is turning into a good pitcher. He’s not quite there yet but he will be by sometime next year.
There is nothing wrong with Heathscott’s makeup. That’s people trying to pin his mother and father’s issues on him.
He’s the kind of kid teams like the Yankees never see at that spot in the draft. Athletic, potential 5 tool kind of kid.
If you are the Yankees, you have to take a shot at that kind of kid if he is available when you pick in the first round.
You sign him, let him develop, and forget about him for 3 years so he can learn his craft.
He has the potential to be a very, very good player.
Wang? One of the strangest situations I’ve ever seen in baseball. If he didn’t have the history he has, they would probably have to think about DFA’ing him. That’s how bad he has been.
No question the Yankees messed up his rehab. They have admitted it themselves.
That said, how much longer can you put up with 2 inning starts? He kills your bullpen and team morale.
Very, very tough situation. What to do about it? An even thougher issue.
At this point, I think I would take him out of the rotation. There just isn’t enough improvement shown to keep running him out there.
I know Mark Feinsand believes otherwise but, this isn’t a merit system. The Yankees have some significant issues and Wang is at the top of the list.
At some point, you can’t wait any longer for him to find it. You have assume he’s not and go in a different direction.
I think its going to be real, real difficult to put him on the DL with another BS excuse. I’d bet the Commissioners Office is going to be watching that very closely.
Its a very tough business and its a rotten, rotten break for Wang but, at some point, you just have to move on without him.
We cannot keep putting Wang back oout there. Each week it’s he did good EXCEPT. The excepts are killing us. Right now winning is more important than Wang’s career, Hughes did very well last night and he belongs in the rotation and Wang in the pen, not the other way around.
On the plus side, the pen did very well, 2 runs over 6 and 2/3 innings is good.
I love Phil Hughes. Love him. I think he bounced back great after giving up the homerun. But why are people just disregarding that 2-run homerun? It was the difference in the game. It didn’t cost the game in the sense that too many other things happened, and the Yankees had opportunities to score more runs. But it did ultimately make a difference in the game. If it was Coke or Veras or Aceves or any other guy, I’m sure he gets hammered for coming in and giving up the HR.
I know it was one mistake. And I know in the overall picture of Phil Hughes’ career with the Yankees, his outing was a positive one. But let’s not pretend he was perfect last night. His one mistake was costly.
Just like the night before. Those tack on runs – the “wow, our relief pitchers did pretty good, they only gave up one run each” runs – put the game out of reach. Yes, Beckett was unhittable, yes their bullpen is the best there has ever been (hyperbole), but it’s big difference coming back from 4-0 than 7-0.
People try to assign blame to pitching or offense or particular players. But looking at both games, the entire team takes responsibility. They have not pitched well, have not hit well, and have been pretty sloppy in the field. It’s pretty hard to win when all three of those things get in the way.
That being said, I believe in this team. I think they’re going to be fine.
Wang getting another DL stint would be helpful. An injury to his non-pitching arm would sure be convenient. Can we get Jeff Gilooly involved?
I’m not worried about the Yanks either, they have the pieces to keep winning series and make it to the playoffs. But it’s frustrating as hell to watch these games against the Sox. I think I’ll take a breather tonight and just relax doing something else.
Q: Has Wang had even one semi-effective start? A: No. So no one should be surprised that he doesn’t get the same treatment from Girardi as Burnett who has won four games and has at least been competitive seven or eight times in 12 starts.
Doreen – Hughes bouncing back after the HR was a good sign. It appears he’s addressing that part of his game, which he has been called out on.
Wang should complain of shoulder discomfort. Looking closely or not, what’s Selig going to do?
Pete please do me a favor ask Cashman if we can trade Wang for Mike Stanton from Florida Marlins, great hitter and very young outfielder. Straight up
Hughes was also throwing very hard last night and had the curve going.
His strikeout numbers are way up this year.
For whatever reason when someone squares up one of his pitches it goes very far in the other direction.
Doreen, the reason you say the bullpen did good despite the 2 run HR is this: pretend the bulpen was one big starting pitcher. You’d sign up for 2 runs over 6 and a/3 right.
My two cents is that RISP avg. can be overrated sometimes and that if you score at least five runs in a game it’s never the offense’s fault, it’s the pitching. This loss was of course a team loss but I blame Wang more than anybody else.
You wait until they face us at Yankee Stadium. Unlike here, at Fenway, where everything is slanted toward the Sox, the Yankees are NEVER out of a game at Yankee Stadium.
I’m disregarding the first two losses that was a different team. I’m disregarding the first six losses. That was a different team. As far as I’m concerned, we win today we’re 1 and 2 vs. the Sox.
We’ll certainly make the playoffs. Win the division? Doubtful, but we’ll see.
Doreen-I don’t think anyone is saying Hughes was perfect last night. He wasn’t, but he wasn’t horrible either.
He did make a costly mistake and those 2 runs he gave up hurt us last night, but then again, a lot of things hurt us last night.
I guess on the complaint totem pole regarding last night’s game, Phil is kinda far down on it?
I’m thinking two more starts for Wang to show signs of turning it around. An 8 inning scoreless outing would be nice to see, but that much isn’t necessary to show he’s on track. Throw 6 or 7 innings, allow 3 runs or less, show some consistency in arm slots as Eiland talked about, and don’t cave in if the other team scores. That’d go a long way.
ANSKY -
I agree about that. No question about it, he’s really making a ton of progress. I just don’t think it’s good that the bullpen (no matter who it was ) allowed the 2 tack-on runs that ended up making the difference in the game.
I also realize I’m being pretty stubborn on this point.
I guess I’d have to admit that even for me, a normally positive, big-picture person, being 0-7 against the Red Sox just doesn’t feel good. Big picture, I’ll get over it. Right now, well. They’ve done all they could to lose these games. The Red Sox have not been better. The Yankees have beaten themselves.
You also need to remember who he gave those HR’s up to. Kevin Youkilis is a beast, and I hate to admit it.
Doreen,
Wang, not Hughes, put the team in a big hole. Just as AJ did the night before.
I thought Hughes did a solid job in a very tough situation.
Games take on a different complexion when you are down 4 early in them. Pitchers pitch differently with leads like that than they do in a closer game. Hitters also press more, believing they have to do more to get back in a game.
As advanced as baseball has become in the areas of technology, statistical analysis, etc, it still comes down to one basic tenet…..starting pitching.
When its good, the Yankees are a very good team. When its not, they aren’t a very good team.
What has killed them in the 7 games with the Sox has been, by and large, the starting pitching has been awful. That has to change.
When it does, they will more head to head games with the Sox.
Long term, the Yankees are fine. Its a very good team. Short term, the starters have to step it up.
AJ has been awful for the most part since he blew that game in Boston in April. Wang has been a non-factor so far this year. Pettitte, despite his record, has not pitched all that well.
Simply put, guys in the rotation have to do much better than they have been doing. It makes it a lot easier, as we saw when the team was firing on all cylinders, when the starters can go deep and be effective in games.
Tonight is an important game, as far June games go, in the sense that if CC can restore some order, and they get a win, they leave Fenway tied for first and feeling better about themselves. If you are the Yankees, this is the game you feel you need to win.
I’d give Wang one more start and then if he’s still a problem, I’d either put him in the bullpen or just shut him down for the season. People think that he doesn’t have any trade value. I disagree. I bet that there are teams out there that think that they can fix him. Now, I don’t think that they are sending us their best player in a deal, but they can’t send a scrub either. That being said, I wouldn’t trade him. I’d try to fix him.
what do you mean the bullpen is not an option.
cash & girardi are considering pulling wang from the rotation & one more bad start will cement that decision.
we can’t trade him & we can’t put him in the minore so i think the bullpen is the only option unless we dl him or release him.
either way he goes to the pen.
If we win this game as far as I’m concerned we’re 1 and 2 vs. the Sox. First six losses don’t count for me.
Don’t worry. I have complete faith in CC.
there was much debate on the blog when wang was stuck in the bullpen losing his starter length.
finally the yankees realizing wang will lose his conditioning as a starter if he stays there any longer decide to move him to the rotation.
who at that time thought the yankees would win every game wang pitched ?
wang has started two games.
they won one and lost one.
they loss was by a run.
who wouldn’t have taken winning half his games to get him back in starting shape and being the wang we knew?
so why the panic because of one loss in his second game?
the answer is the second loss was the 7th loss in a row to boston.
if the yankees didn’t have the stomach to stay the course with wang and overreact to a loss to boston they shouldn’t have started him against boston.
the yankees have to stop over reacting with wang and jerking him around.
make a plan and stay the course.
his velocity and sink on his fastball was the best it’s been this year.
of course cashman, girardi, and eiland can continue making rash decisions with wang and get nothing out of him for the next year and one half and then when someone else gets him and he returns back to winning 19 games a year and be known as buffoons for the way they messed him up.
Interesting column from Bob Ryan, who tries to temper the excitement of Sox fans.
http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....they_last/
Meanwhile, Im’ still waiting to see a column about the hypocrisy of chanting “steroids” to A Rod.
Wow, I just realized I had a ton of typos in my post. Oh well.
“Games take on a different complexion when you are down 4 early in them. Pitchers pitch differently with leads like that than they do in a closer game. Hitters also press more, believing they have to do more to get back in a game.”
I said this about AJ’s game. He never gave us a chance to win. Yesterday’s game was different though because the Yankees were getting guys on base; they just weren’t getting them in. But the had their chances so in that respect, Wang’s start was better than AJ’s.
I’m sorry, four runs over 2 and 1/3 is not an improvement. It’s a disaster.
“We’ll certainly make the playoffs. Win the division? Doubtful, but we’ll see.”
Why is that doubtful? I think we have a very, very good chance of taking the division. Eventually we will take a game against the Sox.
But in all honesty, we can take the Division and lose every game to the Sox. Theoretically that is.
Do I suggest it? Do I want it to happen? Hell no.
But is it a possibility? Sure, why not?
June 11, folks. June 11.
In 2007, the Yankees dominated the Indians in the regular season. They not only won all the games, they owned them in the games.
Didn’t matter much in the playoffs.
In 2004, they had the upper hand all year against the Red Sox in the regular season. Again, it didn’t matter much in the post-season.
I don’t even consider the first 5 games in the analysis between the two teams. The Yankees were an injured trainwreck in April and MLB always overschedules Yankee-Red Sox games in April.
Mainly because they know the Red Sox are a fast starting team and the Yankees are a slow starting team.
I begin to take notice of the series now because its June and the Yankees are in better form healthwise.
What we have seen the last two days has been horrible starting pitching by the Yankees, and much better starting pitching (a dominant Beckett, and a functional Wakefield) and that’s been the story of the first two games.
Now, the Yankees have their ace going. If CC puts together a big performance tonight and they win, they feel better about themselves heading to the Mets series.
SA -
I’m not saying Phil was horrible – he wasn’t.
I know I’m supposed to be looking at the silver lining, and right now, I’m not in the mood, I guess.
To sum it up, yes, it’s good that the bullpen only allowed 2 runs over the course of the rest of the game. However, those two runs were the difference in the game, regardless of who gave them up or how they scored. Yes, the Yankees were in the game, and with a few more timely hits could have won the game in spite of those 2 runs.
I mostly think that Swisher’s brain freeze on the basepaths ruined the tempo of that inning and changed the feel of the game. His poor play in the outfield was inexcusable and compounded the running mistake. Wang was not great, by any means, but Swisher makes that play, or Alex (or Jeter) makes some kind of stop on that slow-hit ball in the infield. that’s fewer pitches for Wang and fewer runs allowed.
It was a bad game all around.
I will agree that Phil Hughes is making great strides.
Like I said, I think occasionally RISP avg. is overrated. I always looked at it as if the offense scores five runs, it’s not their fault. It’s the pitching. And the blame last game for bad pitching falls mostly on the shoulders of Wang.
SJ44, I agree. As far as I’m concerned we win today we’re 1 and 2 vs. the Sox.
Good news is our last series of the year vs. them is at home for once.
What idiot made this schedule, they don’t play each other the entire month of July?
If Nady can’t play the field, the Yankees are going to have to make a deal for an outfielder. I like Swisher for his attitude, but the guy is not a good fielder. He makes mistakes out there every other game. We can’t keep running him out there everyday.
Only possible problem w/tonight is that CC has faced the Sox in the playoffs and has been OWNED.
Ansky,
Why get all machiavellian with trading for Strasburg – when they can simply trade for the major league version of strasburg in a few months – aka Roy Halladay…i mean if you are suggesting the yankees give up 2/3 of their OF and pieces of the farm and turn this trade into a made for TV mini series why not just give up the farm, the OF’s (and wang) for someone who can help the yankees now…isn’t that a simpler, and possibly better, plan?
Yeah, Swishy made a huge mistake the other day. He more or less made up for it w/a spectacular catch, but too little too late. I hope Nady can play the field.
SJ44 -
I know it all begins with the starters and neither AJ nor Wang was helpful, to say the least.
But last night’s loss was a conglomeration of failures, exacerbated by the insecurity surrounding Wang. Overall, the bullpen did not do a terrible job. It just needed to be a little better. And the offense needed to be just a little better.
And now, I’m off for the afternoon.
bru,
Wang to the bullpen isn’t an option because he can’t warm up quickly. He is next to useless in the bullpen and frankly he would be a wasted spot on the roster.
We saw the stuff last night that made him a 19 game winner. Turbo sinker, nasty slider, ground balls, etc. The only problem was he had terrible control, walked too many batters and tired out quickly because of it.
randy puts it in perspective quite well. Wang has thrown two games, one loss, one win. His stuff is improving every time out. Give him another shot, it’s not the end of the world.
The two best starters are going the next couple of games here. Just another reason why Joba shouldn’t be in the pen, he’s been their second best starter.
Randy,
At some point, Wang also has to take control of his own situation. Its not always Girardi, Cashman, and Eiland’s fault when Wang pitches horribly. It just isn’t.
He’s not getting any better. Yes, he threw harder but, he has no idea where the ball is going.
He continues to not take what he has in the bullpen to his starts. At some point, that has to be on him.
I could see them saying, “Let’s give him one more start against the Nationals and see if there is improvement”.
If that happens, and there is no improvement, then he has to be taken out of the rotation. At some point, it stops becoming spring training. By Late June, you have to begin to have the pieces in place to make a push.
I’d love to see Wang be a part of it. However, if he continues to pitch like this, there is no way they continue to keep him in the rotation.
“Wow I want to beat them
June 11th, 2009 at 9:49 am
If we win this game as far as I’m concerned we’re 1 and 2 vs. the Sox. First six losses don’t count for me.”
But, unfortunately, they do count in the standings. We could be at least 3 up on the Sox at this point. Very strange the vagaries of baseball – we beat the teams the Sox don’t and the Sox kick our arses.
Hmmm….
SJ I think you made a good point earlier with Wang and team Morale. In the post game interviews asmuch as Posada said he thought wang deserved another start – later in the interview when he asked what went wrong he just had no words and looked sort of shell shocked (I thought) He really could not even begin to say the issues.
When they asked Tex about Wang he said I am not a pitcher dont ask me what the issues were however I have seem many interviews when he pitchers have pitched great he talks about he had this going or that going.
Not sure quite what it means but I found both of these interesting and almost sad in a way.
Wang’s one loss one win games were both very bad. Iaw no visible improvement last night. Congrats, your stuff is better. Big deal.
It’s fascinating how I would guess maybe seven times out of ten if you watch the first pitch the pitcher throws and it’s a ball, he’ll have bad control.
Never realized it worked like that so often.
The reason we lost last night was Wang not being able to find the zone early on…and Swishers 2 early gaffs.
Patrick
i agree 100 % but what will the yankees do if he gets bombed?
minors
release
bullpen
i don’t see how he doesn’t end up in the pen unless we release him.
if hughes goes back in the rotation & is doing well do they try this experiment all over again??
i agree with another start but i don’t see how he avoids the bullpen even if it is temporary.
Wang is not a bullpen option. They already have one guy who can’t throw the ball over the plate, gives up 3-5 baserunners an inning, and can’t be trusted in close games. His name is Jose Veras.
If you add Wang out there, that’s two guys you can’t use in high leverage situations. You aren’t making the playoffs with two guys like that in your bullpen.
That’s why this is such a difficult situation. There aren’t any landing spots for Wang if he continues to pitch this poorly.
Out of options. Neither good enough, nor can warm up fast enough, to pitch effectively out of the pen. Been the worst starter in baseball so far this year.
Not a good situation for the Yankees or Wang.
If he had a more powerful agent, perhaps they can begin negotiating a release or a trade.
As it stands right now though, its big dilemma both for the Yankees and Wang.
No easy solutions in this one.
The difference between Wang and Veras is that WAng has done well in the pen.
i’m not very knowledgable about the antiquated MLB rules – but is it possible to keep wang on the major league roster AND send him down to the minors to pitch – so in essence the yankees would be playing with one less player but still wouldn’t have to deal with wang’s growing pains in real games? They are pretty much playing with 3 less players on the roster as it is (veras, wang, berroa)
Also is it time to drop cano from the 5th spot in the lineup and is it time to give gardner a little more playing time as it seems melky is regressing a bit (just want to keeo those competitive fires stoked in melky)
Right now I’m *trying* to think along the lines of it doesn’t matter what happens in the regular season — it’s the post season where it all counts. There tends to be the reversal of fortune in October, right?
Wang didn’t pitch that poorly last night, but alas, the little runs he gave up were just enough of a cushion — certainly not helpful with the old RISP failure of the team. It was nice to see the Yankees chipping away, but the momentum kept on getting killed when it was needed the most.
he has to get another start because the yankees are in a mess if wang does not get fixed.
what in the world do you do with him if he gets bombed in his next start?
can he even accept a minor league assignment or does he have to stay in the majors?
WE scored five runs. The offense had nothing, or at least very little, to do w/ the loss, it was on the pitchers.
WE did fine with Hughes starting, we’re not in that big a mess if he doesn’t get fixed.
SJ, welcome to what I have been trying to tell this bnlog for sometime and I bet I just bet the organization is not happy w/ him or his agent. There is loyalty but then there is loyalty to a fault, I was ripped when I told this blog I don’t want to deal Wang if he can help us, but I’d leave him in the BP and let Hughes continue starting, b/c HE WAS THE BETTER SP ! and then ppl took 2 innings out of the BP to insert Wang into this rotation and disrupt it. You set back a kid in Hughes who IMO has more potential than Wang in the longterm, I’m sorry but that’s a fact, you set him back and didn’t make Wang earn his spot back, but the 19 wins ? yeh those 19 wins are coming in handy now.
Let’s be honest, SJ.
Sure, we can blame Wang.
But RISP is still an issue with this team.
And the baserunning and fielding gaffes by Swisher cost them as well.
What was your take on bunting Melky in the 8th?
Make both e’s in We lowercase.
It’s a completely different game last night if Swish makes that catch on Pedroia’s ball in the 2nd. And now that I think about,
@ him going head first into the crowd last night.
Once Nady is activated he will join Damon, Matsui and Swisher as guys whose best position is DH. Swish made a great play last night, but should have gotten an error on that whiff with the glove off Pedroia… double my arse
Heathcott is obviously very talented, but he tore his acl in November and has trouble with his left shoulder. That’s a lot of injury history for a high schooler. I hope he does extremely well considering how poor the organization is in terms of OF prospects.
No way the Yanks can claim Wang has a make believe injury and get away with it… again
Again Boston the Yankees starters’ ERA is 7.47 in the seven games with only one starter (Pettite) going six innings.
If Wang gets taken out of the rotation the Yankees are making a statement that we are going on performance right now alone, not who your name is. If that is the case doesn’t Alfredo Aceves deserve to be the one getting the ball against the Nats? I definitely see a future for Phil Hughes on this team and next year I definitely want him in the starting rotation, but so far this year he has been OK overall, and I think he will continue to be OK as he continues to adjust to pitching on the big stage. Aceves on the other hand has been VERY good this season. Just strange to me that this has not been mentioned…
What upsets me about Wang is that there seems to be an enormous amount of attention being paid to the psychological aspect of how Wang feels about being sent down or being put in the bullpen. You know if it were David Cone he wouldn’t be whining to reporters about how he thinks he should be allowed to work out his problems on the big team – he’d be saying things like “if they need to put me in A ball or the bullpen to get be back to normal and helping the team let’s do that”. I’m starting to thing that Wang is a primadonna and he needs to start acting like a team player. This could just be me reading into this but I just get the sense that Wang’s psyche is considered delicate, am I wrong?
RISP looked bad but in theend we scored five runs.
The loss was far more on Wang, Swishy’s gaffes, and that absolutely moronic decision to bunt in the eighth, classic case of overmanagement that very well could have lost them the game.
Gayle,
That’s why this is such a difficult situation. Sometimes, you don’t have answers for what’s happening to a player.
We are talking about a guy who has been one of the five best starting pitchers in the AL for the last 3 years. He now is the worst starting pitcher in baseball.
On top of it, he’s an extremely popular player in the clubhouse. That makes it even tougher on everybody because these guys are human beings. Its a heartbreaking situation.
Two emotions are at play with the players. On the one hand, they want to win and they know they can’t win with him pitching he has so far this year.
On the other hand, its heartbreaking to see the kid struggle like this. It really is. For a catcher? Its devastating because you always feel like you should be doing more to help your pitcher. I can really sympathize with the emotions Posada must be feeling at this time.
Its kind of an Asian version of Steve Blass Disease. You just don’t have solutions. Especially when the guy’s bullpen and side sessions go so well.
To me, its more sad than anything else. I could see this thing ending very badly for Wang. By “very badly”, I mean they may be forced to release him because he can’t be on a major league pitching staff being this ineffective.
Its really, really sad to see. That’s why I continue to hope he somehow finds a way out of this mess.
All this shows you just how cruel the game can be at times and why players have to maximize their value whenever they can.
You just never know when you lose the skill to play the game. Whether its via an injury, ineffectiveness or anything else in between.
They’ve been horrendous with RISP against the RS. Batting somewhere in the neighborhood of .130.
“i agree 100 % but what will the yankees do if he gets
bombed?”
DL
WOW –
Re: not playing the SOW in July.
With Interleague taking up a large chunk of June, and MLB wanting to kick things off with a bang, and end just the same, there’s no room in the middle for a Sox-Yanks series.
BR, somebody debated that the other day. The prevailing logic is that his stuff doesn’t translate to sucessful starter.
wang will probably get one more start & then get traded or released.
Remember Chuck Knoblauch? Sometimes you just totally lose it.
~At some point it has to stop becoming spring training~
Does Arod,and Cano,know this too?
The Yanks are not going to release Wang, stop being so dramatic SJ
Let him start vs the Nats, if he still has no command/stamina then DL him. Simple as that.
“Heathcott is obviously very talented, but he tore his acl in November and has trouble with his left shoulder. That’s a lot of injury history for a high schooler. I hope he does extremely well considering how poor the organization is in terms of OF prospects.”
Heh ? even after ACL which is the case for base burners he ran a 4.6 to 1B.. the kid is 18 yrs. old and if you’ve seen his body I doubt injuries will knock him out, this type of guy never lands on the Yankees.
I remember Wang being pretty solid in the pen his last go around.
He showed flashes in the early innings against Texas.
Bru – trade Wang? What do you think they could get for him?Honestly?
something will be done with wang.
the yankees will figure it out.
it sucks because it takes some of our pitching debth away.
thank god hughes is doing ok.
DL Wang with what? You’re not really allowed to make up injuries.
If he keeps pitching this bad, he WILL be released.
Frotis – Runner on 1st, no outs, down by 1 in the 8th. Hell yes you move that runner over. Especially with the top (supposedly) of your lineup coming up.
does anyone know if Jeter made his 10pm reservation at the fancy restaurant? he must have swung at every first pitch last night – that or he’s taking batting tips from cano and melky…
Shout it out,a little louder please, I love how you don’t mention Jeter. 0 for 5 yesterday. If you’re saying A-Rod isn’t clutch at least be consistent and say the same about Jeter.
“Does Arod,and Cano,know this too?”
Arod has a .390 OBP % , he’s made Teixeira a beast eversince he returned, Cano has won us games too, What has Wang done out of the rotation ?
They have hit over .300 with RISP since May 1. That’s not the problem.
Last night, they hit some shots with RISP, just didn’t find holes.
Posada just missed winning the game with a 2 run HR off Papelbon in the 9th.
Bunting? I think they sometimes bunt too much. Last night? I’d probably look to have Gardner run because, if he steals second, and you then have Melky bunt him to third, you have the tying run on third with one out. JMO but, that would be a better situation.
You look at game logs and you won’t find many teams that win when their starters only pitch 2+ innings. Back to back 2+ inning starts from starters? The odds aren’t good teams win those games.
Have to pitch better to beat good teams. When you do, clutch hitting seems to take place more often.
SJ, not sure if it was you but I know there were many who slammed me in the off season when I suggested that the Yanks could trade Wang after this season or at some point before next seasons trade deadline. I was suggesting that we had a lot of young arms and that he would net us a stud young prospect or two going to a team that needed a reliable starter. I knew that they wouldn’t pay him top dollar when he is FA eligible.
Now we have no chance of getting anything for him and will end up letting him walk after next year.
As for this season, they need to stick him in the pen and see if they can get anything out of him. A sinker ball pitcher inducing a dbl play may be his only value at this point.
If a starter gets hurt then bring ACE in out of the pen but not Wang.
“DL Wang with what? You’re not really allowed to make up injuries.”
Yeah you are.
Dontrelle Willis went to the DL with social anxiety disorder that apparently was diagnosed with a blood test. Oh yeah and Willis says he doesn’t have anxiety. That is the epitome of a made up “injury”.
Every year pitchers go on the DL for “tired arm”. DLing players with made up injuries happens ALL THE TIME
i don’t know what the yankees will do but i do know they will do one of these.
dl
release
bullpen
trade
if they dl him he will be in the minors so add that to the list.
pick your poison.
gayle
I took Tex’s comment to be a show of support for a teammate.
He knew enough people were going to critiquing Wang and didn’t need to include his take to the long list.
Patrick, I know but if you’re caught you can get in big trouble.
patrick.
what happens if they dl him,have him pitch a few minor league rehabs,bring him back & he gets bombed??
“Have to pitch better to beat good teams. When you do, clutch hitting seems to take place more often.”
Yeap
If you think about it the Yankees have been winning recently because of offense, not pitching. That’s a bit shocking considering all the predictions before the season started.
Sabathia has been good but not as good as he was last year. Burnett has been a train wreck for the most part. Wang has been awful, Pettitte has been mediocre, Hughes the same. Joba has pitched okay.
Really we’ve had 2 starters pitching well – Joba and Sabathia. Even those guys haven’t pitched as well as we think they can.
If the pitching staff can ever get their stuff together this team will be truly unstoppable.
Brandon,
Wang’s agent has hurt him more than Wang has hurt the Yankees.
A more powerful agent would have been better prepared for his arbitration hearing. That cost Wang millions of dollars.
A more connected agent with a better understanding of baseball would have NEVER let the Yankees bring back Wang after Joba got hit with that line drive. He should have realized the guy wasn’t yet ready to pitch in the majors.
The agent got too consumed with getting his client back to the majors at all costs and that has hurt Wang bigtime.
Sometimes, you have to go to war with the team to do what’s in the best interests of your client. Sometimes, its best for your client to be in the minors working out his issues.
I have seen two pretty big instances where Wang’s agent has hurt him and that’s 2 more than a guy of Wang’s standing in the game should allow from his agent.
The Yankees have made their share of mistakes with Wang. His agent also hasn’t done right by him.
That’s why I feel so badly for the guy. He’s getting it from both ends.
I don’t understand why there is such an issue with putting Wang in the bullpen. I think this is exactly what he needs right now. He could be a Ramiro Mendoza-like middle reliever with that sinker which would be a real change of pace after seeing fireballers like Joba, CC and Burnett.
Wang is going to be fine, stop with this “sky is falling” nonesense. The guy was throwing 95 mph last night with insane movement. So what that he didn’t have control? He has barely pitched in a year! What do you expect him to do when the Yankees REFUSE to let him build up his stamina by continually panicking every time he pitches?
His stuff was out of this world good last night. You people are insane, you only care about tonight’s game and you don’t think big picture. His STUFF is there. So why would you assume he’s DONE? That makes absolutely no sense. He had a bad start, jeez. What about the days that Hughes went out there with horrible control and got bombed for 7 runs in less than 2 innings? Why aren’t you bashing him for that the way you KILL Wang?
It just seems like EVERY SINGLE BREAK goes the Sox way. Line drives w/runners in scoring position turn into double plays. Bloop doubles. Fantastic plays by the opposition. It feels like a curse and will continue to do so until we win tonight.
I know Aceves does not have electric stuff, but I feel like if you take Wang out of the rotation and give the nod to Hughes you are just taking the easy way out. In my opinion the guys who are performing the best should be getting the ball every 5th day. Hughes has a big name in this organization and that will be the reason he would get the next start, because there is no denying Aceves has been much better than Hughes if you look at the numbers alone and not stuff.
“Patrick, I know but if you’re caught you can get in big trouble.”
Huh? When has this ever happened? Examples please.
“what happens if they dl him,have him pitch a few minor league rehabs,bring him back & he gets bombed??”
Well first of all, if they do DL him and let him pitch some minor league starts they probably won’t screw up like last time. Wait for him to truly be ready then bring him back. If he still bombs, just do it again. Wang is too good to simply release him. Cut the dramatics people, he isn’t going anywhere.
Matt, it’s not just a bad start, it’s for awful starts in a row where h has a starter ERA of something like 20 or 25.
Patrick, I say that because I think someone mentioned it earlier I’ll try and find the post if I could.
it is easy to say we should have traded wang now.
try doing it when he won 46 games in less than 2 1/2 years.
not that simple.
BR you’re right, but as I mentioned the prevailing wisdom is that it works only once around a lineup.
ok i’ll buy that.
just do it.
Thank you Matt, I agree 100%
“It just seems like EVERY SINGLE BREAK goes the Sox way. Line drives w/runners in scoring position turn into double plays”
That had nothing to do with luck or catching a break. That was all about Swisher’s stupidity. It was a softly hit lazy liner. Though Green did a great job getting rid of the ball quickly, it was inexcusable of Swisher to get caught off 1st like that with the play in front of him.
Patrick,
Usually, that’s the case. However, the Yankees have already had the “make up” DL injury to Wang.
Will the Commissioners Office look the other way again? Perhaps. But, when it comes to the Yankees, Bud never looks the other way twice.
No question, I’d DL him before I’d think about releasing or trading him.
But, if that option is not on the table, the Yankees don’t have many good options remaining on what to do with him.
Tough, tough situation all around.
Melky bunting in 8th? If a slower runner is on first, OK. Maybe even a hit & run because you have to get that run in scoring position. But BG was on first. No way you bunt. BG is on the team for his speed. Steal!! Then bunt him to 3rd, so it’s man on 3rd 1 out. Doesn’t make sense. Pena steals in 9th but BG who is a very good base stealer doesn’t steal in the 8th.
i’m a big proponent of trash talking if you can back it up – but did anyone read the comments that beckett made the other night? They were talking about winning 6 in a row against the yankees (after becketts win i guess) and then a reporter must have said “yes but that was without Arod in the lineup” and becketts reply was “So i guess we’ll start counting from today”
Is that acceptable or is it beckett being the absolute jackass (want to use a different word but i would get censored if i did) that he is known to be?
“Usually, that’s the case. However, the Yankees have already had the “make up” DL injury to Wang. ”
That was an actual injury though, his hip was never rehabbed properly. The vast difference in velocity before his DL trip and after is enough proof for me.
If Wang says one day “my arm is tired/hurting” MLB has nothing they can do. It’s pretty simple, I see it happen every year.
If this team can waste a roster spot with Berroa hanging around then they certainly can relegate Wang to the bullpen to get his issues worked out. Bruney should be next to come off the DL. DFA Berroa now, why wait until Nady comes back. When Nady returns, DFA Veras and rid the roster of question marks or non contributors.
It only amounts to restructuring the roster for Cashman / Girardi.
This may be off the pressing topic, but in hindsight it is looking like a good decision to haggle over arbitration with Wang and never sign him to a long-term deal to cut out his arbitration hearings. I remember some blustering about how it’s weird that the Yankees would treat a guy who was a back-to-back 19 game winner with such disrespect and how it was weird they weren’t signing him to secure him longer term.
Seems like a prescient move now, but then again hindsight is 20/20. At least you know the commitment to Wang financially isn’t keeping him in the rotation or something like that.
Matt,
What game were you watching last night? His stuff was horrible. He couldn’t find the plate and when he did, he didn’t miss bats.
Even most of the outs he had the balls were hit hard.
You don’t use the radar gun to determine “stuff”.
His stuff wasn’t good at all last night. In fact, it was back to April levels except for velocity. When he’s right, he doesn’t walk people and doesn’t go deep into counts.
Neither was the case last night. That’s why his stuff wasn’t even close to being good.
Well you can’t possibly be serious if you consider Wang’s first 3 starts in the same light as his last 2. You really cannot talk about “his last five starts” because his STUFF was not there in his first 3 starts.
His stuff IS HERE right now. He is erratic because he hasn’t been used regularly and is now being expected to be able to go deep in games? That’s just completely ridiculous.
He got to about 75 pitches starting in rehab games in AAA. They used him for 2 40-50 pitch stints over a span of 2 weeks. How do you expect him to be sharp with that kind of use or go deep into games?
Wang has his STUFF right now. He DIDN’T earlier in the year. That is the difference, and that is why you can’t work yourself up so much about these starts yet. Until he builds up his stamina, which the Yankees have not let him do, the jury is completely out on him. As long as he is throwing 94-95 and not 91, there is still a TON of hope for him to get it going again.
Why would you give up on him when you know his stuff is coming back? Most pitchers tend to have bad control when they are first returning from a severe injury. The stuff comes first, the control at the end. As long as the first one is there, the 2nd will come eventually, but not if they PANIC AGAIN and do something crazy with him.
They already screwed him over once with a panic move, not letting him build up his pitch count and throwing him in the pen, and to take him out of the rotation now would be just as damaging a move.
“Doesn’t make sense. Pena steals in 9th but BG who is a very good base stealer doesn’t steal in the 8th.”
Probably can be written off to Papelbon being far easier to run on than Okajima. Papelbon is really long to the plate. Okajima seems like a pretty tough read and he’s left handed.
Steve B, exactly. Another break going there way. A soft lazy hit liner, and our runner is caught off the bag! What are the odds of someone being that stupid?
becket is right.
when we start beating the rs we will be able to say such things.
my question is if the yankees wan’t to can they send wang to the minors if he agrees? or is it out of the question?
Once again, Wang in the bullpen solves nothing. He takes too long to warm up and would be pretty useless in the pen. It also doesn’t give him an opportunity to improve as a starter. Going to the bullpen is a step backwards and would hurt the team short-term and long-term.
The two options are to stick with him in the rotation or put him on the DL.
It’s the except thing. Wang has done wel EXCEPT. The excepts are killing us and we have no idea when the excepts are going to end, I’m sorry but I don’t trust Wang at all to give us a chance to win games, and by a chance I mean a quality start.
June 11th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Melky bunting in 8th? If a slower runner is on first, OK. Maybe even a hit & run because you have to get that run in scoring position. But BG was on first. No way you bunt. BG is on the team for his speed. Steal!! Then bunt him to 3rd, so it’s man on 3rd 1 out. Doesn’t make sense. Pena steals in 9th but BG who is a very good base stealer doesn’t steal in the 8th.
—–
Tougher to steal against the lefty in the 8th. In the 9th they were in desperation mode and had to steal.
Wang has come out of the pen a couple of times and done well.
Bill, that is one of an increasing list of very perplexing moves Giradi has made this season. I am really starting to see how a team can fire the guy after winning manager of the year, because even if the Yankees make the playoffs this year I do not think Joe should be a lock to be back. IMO a manager does not really win games but great managers do not lose games and I think Joe has already lost a few this year.
FWIW, I though Wang actually threw the ball pretty well against the Rangers before tiring a little. One of the more disappointing aspects of last night’s effort was that it seemed to be a step backwards for him.
Sj44 you are wrong, his stuff was nasty last night. His command on the other hand was awful.
I don’t see how you don’t see this. His sinker had a ton of downward movement and when he threw balls they were generally down. His slider was also pretty nice.
He didn’t miss bats? Sure he did, what are you talking about? He had plenty of swings and misses and for the most part he got a lot of weak grounders. That is, until he wore himself out.
Bru – Wang cannot be sent down unless he’s DL’d
“Sj44 you are wrong, his stuff was nasty last night. His command on the other hand was awful.”
This is the way I saw it as well. Velocity and movement were there, but the command was in the toilet. I’ll wait on Randy’s arm slot analysis, but Eiland did mention is was all over the place again.
Yeah going to disagree with SJ on this one, the first 2 innings Wang’s problem was his complete lack of control/command, not his “stuff”. Granted, you probably can’t separate the two in order to try and find a bright spot out of a terrible outing, but still, if you want to evaluate his potential to improve going forward you have to keep it in mind.
His velocity was up and his sinker’s downward movement was definitely vintage Wang, but he could not get strike 1 with the sinker and did not throw any of his secondary pitches really outside of a few get-me-over four-seamers. CB and randy l. were talking about this on one of last night’s threads, his stuff was definitely major league but it was a mess because of a combination of no command and the fact that the balls that were hit early in the game found holes. Then his wheels fell off again around 50-55 pitches and he started leaving pitches up and lost velocity, which got him out of the game quickly.
What does that mean as a final verdict? That the guy is still a total mess and the Yankees are firmly caught between a rock and a hard place.
Velocity was there. The sinker had downward movement but, he had no control of it. That’s not good stuff.
He couldn’t throw his slider or his two seamer, especially from the stretch, for strikes at all. Again, not good stuff.
We agree that his stamina is not there. But, let’s be serious, he can’t throw a strike when he needs to. That’s not only “not good stuff”, that’s not good at all.
That’s the dilemma. Its almost as if he is in Mid-March form and we are in Mid-June.
He doesn’t seem “close” to me be being back to the Wang of old.
The problem is, how do you get him there and I’m not sure keeping him in the rotation is the way to do it.
“Why aren’t you bashing him for that the way you KILL Wang?”
Is this a serious question? I seriously, seriously hope not.
Right SJ… if you are going to ignore the radar gun readings then you have to look at WHY he was walking guys. He was walking them because he had TOO MUCH MOVEMENT. His pitches were starting at the knees and dropping into the dirt.
That is NOTHING like April. He wasn’t walking guys in April because his stuff was AWFUL. Instead of sinking out of the zone when it started low, it would stay right over the plate. His velocity AND movement were outstanding last night.
You have to realize that you have to look past the box score and look at what was actually going on. He was throwing pitches with a LOT of movement and velocity, but they were missing because of that movement taking them out of the zone. Credit the Red Sox for being really patient, but he was being squeezed as well.
Walks do not been a guy doesn’t have great stuff. You will twist any stat any way you want to prove your points, but you have to realize that just because he didn’t have the outcome you want, it doesn’t mean you can immediately use that to say there is no hope and that his stuff was bad.
When Joba goes out there and walks a bunch of guys throwing 96 mph with sharp sliders that are being taken rather than swung at, do you say his STUFF is bad? Of course not, that’d be ludicrous. Do you say CC’s STUFF is bad when he misses his locations and walks a bunch of guys on 95 mph fastballs? No way. Then why would you say it for Wang?
It’s a double standard you guys have. If anyone but Wang had the performance of last night you’d give them another chance, but because it’s Wang, you want him released, traded, sent down? How do you expect him to EVER get it going if you NEVER give him a chance to build up his stamina?
It’s pretty obvious that Swisher may have the talent to be an everyday player but he doesn’t have the mental toughness to stay in the game for every pitch – although I’m not sure Nady has that either. Baseball is the kind of game where one mental slip up can change an entire game.
everybody i heard said wang’s stuff looked good.
i don’t know because i didn’t see the game but i heard his stuff was moving & he was throwing hard.
the command & control from what i hear was off & he got squeezed.
one more start & then put let him go out on paternity leave.
I don’t think it was Swishy’s mental toughness so much as his baseball IQ.
He can’t throw a strike when he needs to?
He was 3-0 on Kotsay with the bases loaded and came back and got him to ground out weakly on 3-2.
As long as his stuff is good, there is still plenty of hope that he can turn it around. Control is always the last thing to come, and if you never give him a chance, you’re going to miss your chance to recover a guy who still has tremendous stuff and the ability to be a #2-#3 type pitcher in this league.
“If he keeps pitching this bad, he WILL be released.”
And if he latches on with a division rival and regains 19 win form, heads would roll in New York.
Cashman isn’t releasing him, it’s a no-gain situation.
He didn’t get squeezed, everybody said the strike zone was bad. I didn’t see it. I think us fans were grasping at straws.
I wouldn’t say he got squeezed by the ump, he was too all over the place to make that argument–it’s not like he was just missing with pitches, everything was missing badly. The one ray of sunshine out of his missing badly, though, is that he was mostly missing badly down in the zone. I wonder if it’s part a mental thing with him now in terms of his command, as he’s become obsessed with making sure that his sinker is down and now he’s over-compensating and the sinker is just heading straight to the dirt instead of occasionally hitting the lower corners of the strike zone.
So many questions about Wang, and until he takes the mound again there are just zero answers to be had right this second.
Matt, he did that, came back from 3-0 and still gave up four runs. Those aren’t strikes when he needs them.
Matt,
He’s been the worst starting pitcher in baseball so far this year. That’s a FACT.
He can’t throw a strike when he needs to from the stretch. He can’t throw consistent strikes with any of his pitches.
If you think that’s great “stuff” we will agree to disagree.
You think he “great” last night and then tell me to look “beyond the box score”? That’s pretty funny.
I watched the game last night. I saw a guy who couldn’t throw the ball over the plate and who was worn out by the third inning.
Sorry, that’s not “great stuff”. That’s a big, big problem.
He’s so far behind being “back”, that its getting tough to wait on him in season. That’s the dilemma the Yankees face.
You can’t keep running him out there and fail and think that’s the way he’s going to find his way.
the problem with wang is when do you pull him & say enough is enough?
i,2,3 more starts?
with hughes pitching well wang has to get it together over his next start or two.
i agree & have always said 3 starts.
let him go against the nationals but after that if he gets killed i would dl him.
Ok SJ we are arguing different things here.
Wang was not a major league quality pitcher last night. His CONTROL was awful and as you say he couldn’t throw strikes.
However, if you separate the two components – command and stuff, his stuff was there. Movement and velocity, both were good (on his slider and sinker). Obviously that means nothing if you can’t control the pitch but we are trying to draw some glimmer of optimism from his outing.
About his lack of stamina. I think it was caused mostly due to his lack of control. He threw a ridiculous amount of pitches in the first two innings and that took a lot out of him. Get out of those two innings and I bet you he goes 85 pitches.
Swisher’s mental toughness? RU Joking?
He’s playing RF in Fenway, chasing a ball laterally and takes his eye off it for one of the following reasons: 1) lost it in the lights, 2) wasn’t sure where the wall was.
No lack of mental toughness there. Not prepared, didn’t know the park, wasn’t concentrating etc. – Yes.
What I don’t get about the play on Melky’s liner was what in the heck was Green doing playing so deep? That ball was over his head and in the grass. I think Swisher saw it’s trajectory and figured it would drop. Turns out it probably wasn’t hit as hard as he thought. No lack of mental toughness there. Wasn’t concentrating etc. – Yes.
sj, i’m gonna have to STRONGLY disagree with you on Wang’s sliders. He struck out both Bay and Youkilis in the top of the second on sliders. He wasn’t getting called strikes with it, but he did use it go get those guys out.
and if i may add, wang was throwing out the stretch for both of those strikeouts.
Matt,
Funny how you conveinently left out the 10 straight balls, and 14 out of 18, he threw that lead to the Sox scoring their early runs.
I mean, seriously, are you really arguing that he looked good last night?
Sometimes, you have to take off the pinstripe glasses.
He was awful last night. We are all grasping at straws to find something positive about a bad, bad performance.
I, like everybody else, hope he finds it.
However, to tout last nights performance as “improvement” is living in fairytale land.
i think wang might be close & needs another start.
it would be a tradgedy to pull him right now.
if he gets bombed one more time then dl him & forget about him until you know for sure he is ok.
we need wang.
SJ, I unfortunately agree.
Hha, it’sso funny how here and on the next thread there are two different groups of people havingtwo totally different conversations. Don’t know why, but I find that funny.
I agree with most what everyone is saying- Sutcliffe is a complete boob who doesn’t have any clue what he is talking about.
86, I too thought Wang deserved 3-4 starts, now, like you, I am ready for Hughes to start again.
But as vb03 says- they aren’t going to release him. You never know, Wang may just not be sure of himself b/c of his foot and may need a complete off-season to regain his confidence. He also could be thinking of his wife about to go into labor. I don’t know, but I do know last night was ugly.
As for the strike zone, I watched the game from start to finish and the ump’s strike zone was inconsistent on outside pitches. Some innings he would give the pitcher 3 inches off the plate to get the strike, the next inning pitches over the outside edge of the plate were balls, but should have been strikes. Lefthanders (batters)were screwed the most b/c they had to cover the plate plus up to 4 inches outside of the plate. But many of Wang’s pitches were low and inside, not outside. His command was terrible, but he had velocity and definate downward movement. Maybe he deserves one more turn, especially against the Nats, they suck. Perhaps his baby will be born then and a cloud will lift and he will discover himself.
Or he will get run out of the 3rd inning again and Hughes starts permanently.
Matt, I agree with what you are saying. It reminded me that in years past, when he was good, when Wang had too much rest either from being pushed back, or coming out early in a previous start, his stuff was too “heavy” maybe he needs regular work. I kind of thought Girardi should have left him in to get that last out in the 3rd, he just struck the previous batter and his velocity was still 94. Oh well.
Wang may need to follow fellow 19-game winning sinker baller Carmona down to A ball and just start all over. No fake DL trip, just agree to a minor league reassignment and start from scratch in terms of stamina, control, a feel for pitching, the works.
I would say the Yankees have to really try to go down that road after one more terrible start. If he is going to not be cooperative, then it is crazy to say it, but you have to think about cutting ties with him somehow.
You guys nit pick at everything but you have to realize what’s going on.
2 of those runs were the result of HORRIBLE defensive plays. Swisher missed the fly ball by Pedroia that scored the 3rd run and A-Rod didn’t even go for a DP grounder that scored the first run.
Wang has the stuff to go out there and dominate a team on any given night still. The problem is that his confidence and control aren’t quite back yet. But how do you expect him to ever get those back pitching in 2 inning stints out of the bullpen?
If you want to win this year even, you have to let Wang regain his form. This team is way better if he is back to his old self, and you have to let him find it. As long as he is throwing 95 with the good movement you can still give him a chance. If he came back throwing 91 with no sink then I’d agree, you’d have to convine him to go back to the minors or something. But while he still has it, he needs to be given a chance to figure it out.
You will only look at the stats and not the actual performance. 2 of the runs were from bad defense and the 4th on the HR came when he was tiring, because he has NO STAMINA because of the horrible way the Yankees have used him and not allowed him to build it up.
So you can really say he only gave up 1 run on his good stuff, on Kottoras’ double. The first inning he pitched in was much better than any line score would indicate- he was squeezed, Bay’s ball should have been a DP, and he battled back tremendously on Kotsay.
It’s not like he went out there with his walks and started walking in runners. He stranded pretty much all the guys he walked!
You guys want Hughes in the rotation, we get it. But Hughes and Joba are both on innings limits. You can’t have those guys in the rotation all year long, and you NEED Wang to find it again and provide innings, especially with Pettitte and his balky back/age.
Wang is an important piece of this team’s future, and as long as he has STUFF, you have to let him get it going.
Giving up on Wang now would be an incredibly foolish move. What are you going to do? Putting him into the bullpen makes it WORSE, sending him down destroys his confidence, what are you going to do? As long as he has good stuff he will find his control in the next few starts as he BUILDS UP STAMINA and gets WORK.
REGULAR WORK, that’s the ONLY way he will find his control again. The way the Yankees have used him, he has had none of that, so what do you expect?
If he gets 3 or 4 starts on regular rest he will definitely get his control back along with his stamina. That is why you can’t do anything about it right now. You have to let it play its course and hope he finds it again, as you need him to be good.
If in 5 or 6 starts he’s still going 4 IP 5 ER then you have a problem. I doubt though that if they actually let him pitch a bit more that it would be that kind of outcome though. He’s throwing 95, and he’s making mistakes because of his CONTROL. When he makes good pitches guys still can’t hit him.
So you say he got hit hard blah blah blah. Well that’s a result of his bad control as well and missing spots, so once he finds his control he’ll be fine again. It’s not like earlier in the year where he makes his pitches on the corners and they hit them into the seats. Give him a chance. If you guys were managers you’d bench anyone any time they slumped and you would never let them turn it around!
MATT,please have your eyes checked,Wang was clocking a high number on the gun,but the ball wasn’t locating.
~I think the stress of back to back lousy pitching (AJ, WANG) has everyone upset.
~ Hopefully CC,will have a good outing,and he get some help offense wise too.
Part of the Yankees frustration last night after the game (both Posada and Girardi) was that Wang had taken a step back. He was awful and how many more nights can the Yanks have a starter go 2 innings? If Hughes is going to have to relieve Wang in the 2nd or 3rd inning anyway, he might as well just start the game. I have to admit that I have a lot more confidence in Hughes now (and I didn’t before) than in Wang.
You know what, Here’s whhat I think: I give a hearfelt thank you from the bottom of my heart to how Wang has helped us in the past years, but I’m sorry, he is not necessary to our success.
Hughes has proven that, unlike Wang, this year he has the potential to pitch well and win. The Yankees have proven we can win w/o Wang. So far all putting Wang out there has done is jeapordize games. We have Hughes, put him in the rotation and figure out something to do with Wang because he is pitching horribly.
What do you guys not get?
Stuff and Control. They are independent things.
I’m not saying his control was good. I’m saying his STUFF was good, which it was.
If he has the stuff and no control, he has hope of finding the control as he gets more regular work. If he has control but no stuff, then he has no hope because he will never get better. I’d rather have the first problem than the second, because the second was what he had in April and you saw what happened then.
He can have good stuff and bad control. Joba would go out there throwing 95 and walking 4 guys, but that doesn’t mean his stuff was bad, it means his control was bad. Completely different aspects of pitching.
You have to give Wang at least 2 more starts to show improvement.
However, after that, if he’s still giving you 2.2 IP, then you’ve got a very, very difficult decision to make if you’re the Yankees. You can’t have the bullpen bail him out every time.
Bottom line is that the Yankees messed him up by bringing him up in that panic move. Without that, they could have left him in AAA to regain his control and stamina post-injury.
There is no doubt that Cashman and co. have mishandled this whole situation as bad as humanly possible. It’s disgraceful.
“You know what, Here’s whhat I think: I give a hearfelt thank you from the bottom of my heart to how Wang has helped us in the past years, but I’m sorry, he is not necessary to our success.”
You won’t be singing the same tune when Hughes and Joba hit their innings limits in early September in the middle of a pennant race.
There’s 2/3 of a season left and obviously the Yankees are not in a deperation mode but Wang can’t continuously be afforded any more opportunities to get it right.
He should agree to work with Nardi Contreras and get his mechanics in order at a lower level.
Dave Eiland can’t quick fix him at the major league level. He’s got enough on his hands with Burnett and the bullpen.
vb03 – Free Wang!!!, Hughes and Joba have both had their innings limits handled very well. I think they’ll last at least until the playoffs.
“At some point, Wang also has to take control of his own situation. Its not always Girardi, Cashman, and Eiland’s fault when Wang pitches horribly. It just isn’t.”
getting into starting shape when recovering from an injury is a process.
cashman told him not to do anything to strengthen the foot and lower half over the winter and then did no testing to see if he had enough strength for spring training.
wang didn’t.
whose fault is this wang’s or cashman’s?
wang finally after rehabbing is starting games and getting up to seven innings when cashman overreacts to a line drive off of joba and knee jerks wang up to sit in the bullpen and lose his starter conditioning.
whose fault is that wang’s or cashman?
wang is reinserted into the rotation . it is with everyone’s understanding that it’s a process of 4-5 starts to bring him back to where a starter would be coming out of spring training. the yankees make the decision to have less of a chance to win those games with wang in there instead of hughes, but make the decision to lose some games to win more later.
they are 1-1 with wang starting. they show panic and hint of removing him at this point after a one run red sox loss. nothing has happened that wasn’t part of the process they set in motion.they panic. they waver in their plan .
whose fault is this wang’s or the yankees?
game three of a five game plan is coming up next.
if the yankees change the plan again because of nothing unusual happening, whose fault is that wang’s or cashman’s, girardi’s, or eiland’s?
i think the answer is pretty clear that there is no plan that is stuck with and thought through with wang so far.
that’s on the yankees.
wang will be good again. the question is will it be with the yankees or someone else.
i watched the game twice last night. wang had no trouble commanding his four seam fastball. the first inning rbi could have been a double play ball.
swisher whiffed on a catchable flyball for another run. there was a groundbal hit up the middle and a chopper in no man’s land over the mound.
he actually had some good moments. bay and striking out yuokillis for example.
i suggest anyone thinking he was the same as he was in past outings to watch the game again. he was much better last night.
if the yankees don’t start wang in his next start, they are buffoons as i said earlier.
the only thing that i think would be better is figuring a way to get him starting at scranton. short of that happening he needs to make his next start against the nationals.
Especially Hughes, who has been working out of the bullpen for a bit now.
“vb03 – Free Wang!!!, Hughes and Joba have both had their innings limits handled very well. I think they’ll last at least until the playoffs.”
Hughes is clocked at around 100 IP. He has 39 now.
Joba at about 150. He’s at 59.1 now.
Assume you start them every 5 days from this point on:
Around 3 starts in June + 6 in July, August and September = 21 total
Let’s be a bit optimistic and say they go 6 IP per start.
21*6 = 86
Hughes: 86 + 39 = 125 IP
Joba: 59.1 + 86 = 145.1 IP
Joba would be fine. Hughes would be well over his innings limit, and you’d be short one starter.
“The Yankees were an injured trainwreck in April and MLB always overschedules Yankee-Red Sox games in April.
Mainly because they know the Red Sox are a fast starting team and the Yankees are a slow starting team.”
SJ44, I’ve always wondered why there are so many Yankees-Red Sox games bunched up together at the beginning of the season. It seems strange that they don’t try to spread them out a little more evenly over the year, maybe a three-game series every month for a total of 18 in all. Maybe there are other reasons involved as you suggest above. Amazing if that’s the case.
Seems like the schedule makers usually loos to get two “big” Yankees/Red Sox home-and-home series relatively quickly in April, then three random games in one city in June, then a big break until August and September.
It’s almost like they want to rope fans & viewers in during April when the other major sports are still going and people aren’t as tuned-in to baseball yet, then again in the late summer when football is getting ramped up again.
loos should be looks*
vb03 – Free Wang!!!, Let’s say only five innings a strt for Hughes-far more likely. Then Hughes would be at 105 innings pitched. Very few over.
“Let’s say only five innings a strt for Hughes-far more likely. Then Hughes would be at 105 innings pitched. Very few over.”
You’d kill the bullpen instead. You’d have two 5-6 IP starters in the rotation.
This is why Wang needs to be fixed. His length is the cure to a weak bullpen.
Wow, hard to believe that there is an argument here about Wang’s outing last night. He was awful. His velocity was up; take that as a good sign. But don’t try to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear here. He did not get squeezed, he did not have great “stuff,” he threw like he had no idea where the ball was going.
vb03 – Free Wang!!!, We’ve been winning with Hughes. He is not the problem. Wang has been a problem.
If you really want to burn out the bull pen,keep putting AJ AND WANG out there in back to back outings.You’ll kill their arms.
~I really feel for Wang,and the way the Yankees shut him down,in post season from working on his arm strength and not DETECTING it in spring training.
~Cashman needs to go. If he didn’t have the deep budget of the Yankees,and was with a smaller payroll,he would be fired,because of some of his picks.I would like to see what he would do without the fail safe protection of all the Yankees money.
~Smaller markets GM’s have to be accurate,one bad over the top contract for a bad player and they can’t compete. Cashman benefits from the Yankees deep pockets,because they can cover his bonehead moves.
Well many of the Yankees “bonehead” moves were made over Cashman’s objections — re-signing Alex, giving Jorge four years just two examples. The big decisions around here are organizational decisions, not Cashman decisions.
Was he a bonehead for keeping on the Steinbrothers about making an offer to Teixiera?
I believe the Yanks can and should keep Wang on the 25-man roster and send him to Tampa for some extended spring training work. As long as he doesn’t face outside competition I think that’s legal. They are basically a 22-man roster gith now (Wang, Berroa, Veras) so replacing Veras with Bruney and sending Wang out for work would still be a net gain.
I find the “stuff” versus “command” argument amusing. It appears many of you think velocity and movement equal “stuff”. Velocity and movement without command and control is in a word, Farnswurst.
At least Pavano got the crap beat out of him, right!??!
Noticing something about A-Rod defensively, which showed up again last night.
I have a sneaking suspicion that his hip is bothering him more than he lets on. He seems never to attempt the diving snare to his left (in the hole). I think his hip has slowed his reaction time on groundballs in the hole, and he won’t dive for them because he might aggravate the injury.
I’m not saying he shouldn’t be playing. I am saying that there is likely more going on with that hip injury than meets the eye. A-Rod is definitely slower in the field on certain plays than he used to be.
I think Alex is tentative with it, which is why he let the first one go when he could have made a play. Later he made a nice stop and got a foce out at second.
SJ kills me. Posada just missed hitting a homer of Papelbon last night. RIIIIGHT. 295 foot pop ups are now moral victories.
What a windbag this SJ guy is. Sorry dude I’m not fooled by your “insights”.