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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


What to do about Wang

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jun 11, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Those 94-mph fastballs and the nasty sliders Chien-Ming Wang used to strike out Kevin Youkilis and Jason Bay in the second inning last night should tell you that he is not washed up as a starting pitcher.

The idea that Wang forgot out to pitch and needs to be traded, released or demoted is ludicrous. He’s 29, not 39.

But the Yankeed need to figure out something and that’s on pitching coach Dave Eiland.

For whatever reason, Wang and Eiland do not seem to have a good rapport. Eiland’s standard response when asked about Wang is to say that the pitcher looks great in the bullpen but doesn’t take it out to the game. “I can’t stand behind him,” Eiland said last night, making the obvious implication that Wang lacks mental toughness.

No, Eiland can’t stand behind him on the field. But he can coach him. Ron Guidry was not respected as a pitching coach within the organization. He was seen as little more than Joe Torre’s pal, a man far away from the cutting edge of game preparation and other modern techniques. But for whatever reason, Guidry connected with Wang. The right-hander had his two best seasons with Guidry patting him on the back from time to time and offering a few tips in his thick Cajun accent.

Guidry consented to be a guest instructor in spring training even after the Yankees fired him as a coach. Why not fly the Gator in and have him sit down with Wang and watch a few bullpen sessions? How could that possibly hurt? I mentioned this idea on the blog last night and it would seem to make sense.

Professional egos being what they are, don’t expect it.

Obviously, Wang bears the burden of this mess. He’s a professional athlete and its responsibility to perform. But coaches are in place for times like these.

Eiland has plenty to do. The pitching staff is second in the AL in walks and first in home runs allowed. Only two teams — hapless Baltimore and Cleveland — are allowing a higher OPS.

A.J. Burnett has been a disappointment. Andy Pettitte is walking more batters per nine innings (3.9) than he has since 1999. Edwar Ramirez has vanished to the minors. Jose Veras is an unreliable mop-up man and Joba Chamberlain has gone more than six innings twice in 11 starts.

Even Mariano Rivera has had his issues. Apparently Eiland can’t stand behind those guys, either.

If pitching is the foundation of a championship, the Yankees have cracks in the cement that go beyond Chien-Ming Wang. But fixing him would be a good place to start. Let Guidry take his shot.

————

Shameless plug: I’ll be on ESPN’s SportsCenter shortly after noon to preview tonight’s game.

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146 Responses to “What to do about Wang”

  1. Jamal G. June 11th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    Pete, the Yankees were second in FIP in the AL (4th in MLB) in 2008. So did Davie Eiland have the magic touch last year and become incompetent this year? No, it’s more of that too much is made of the effect a coach has on the results of a player. Relax.

  2. Baseball Fab June 11th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    Fire them all!
    :)

  3. Bob(The Original) June 11th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    It’s everyone’s fault but Wangs.

    Maybe, just maybe, Wang is one of any number of pitchers who have played MLB, that are great for a year or two and then just lose it and fade away.

  4. talltenor June 11th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    It seems like it’s not a bad idea, and Tyler said as much too, in his “Bats” blog. But I’d expect it to happen about as much as I expect it not to rain here in England…

  5. Erica June 11th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    Wow Pete-

    I actually think that is the best idea i have read about Wang yet. Why don’t the Yankees do that???? It can’t possibly hurt. Maybe they should just hire Pete as a special advisor :-)

  6. Wow I want to beat them June 11th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    Good post Pete.

  7. Frank June 11th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    Pete, I know Cash likes Eiland and he’s Girardi’s guy. But how can the Yanks not take a look at Leo Mazzone?

  8. Wang IS Taiwan June 11th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Eiland sounds like a jerk. I hate the way he talks about Wang to the media.

  9. raymagnetic June 11th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    “A.J. Burnett has been a disappointment. Andy Pettitte is walking more batters per nine innings (3.9) than he has since 1999. Edwar Ramirez has vanished to the minors. Jose Veras is an unreliable mop-up man and Joba Chamberlain has gone more than six innings twice in 11 starts.”

    Not sure if you can place all the blame on Eiland for the above.

    Burnett is what he is and has always been, a guy with a great arm who doesn’t know how to use his talent to the best of his ability.

    Pettitte will be 37, Mariano will be 40. They aren’t going to pitch great forever. Both have pitched pretty well however.

    Edwar Ramirez and Jose Veras, really?

    This is Joba’s first full season as a starter he’ll get better, he’s too good not too.

    I agree that something needs to be done about Wang, but I don’t think you can really place the above issues squarely on the shoulders of Eiland.

    As Randy L. has said in a previous post Wang pitched better last night than he had previously.

    If Swisher doesn’t get doubled off and then misplay a flyball last night game likely turns out completely different. Those two plays were the turning points of the game IMO.

  10. Jamal G. June 11th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Also, Mo’s 2008 was probably his best non-1996 season as a Major League reliever. Edwar Ramirez and Jose Vera also had what could be called their best seasons as Major Leaguers as well. Joba Chamberlain was basically dominant as a starter once he got strecthed out; Chien-Ming Wang started out hot before enduring a quick slump that he was breaking out of when he was injured, and he was striking out guys an a career-best pace last season. Oh, and Mike Mussina was really, really good after reinventing himself after his horrible 2007 season, which, coincidentally or not, occurred when Ron Guridry was in charge.

    Lastly, Darrell Rasner and Sidney Ponson were amongst the top-four pitchers on the Yankees’ 2008 staff in terms of games started and they still were second in the AL in Fielding Independent Pitching (4th in MLB) to the Blue Jays’ vaunted staff.

    I know you’re just throwing a line of thought out here, but come on, guy, Eiland watched over a lot of success last year and quite a bit of failure this year, you can’t praise him or fault him all that much.

  11. Steve June 11th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    “Those 94-mph fastballs and the nasty sliders Chien-Ming Wang used to strike out Kevin Youkilis and Jason Bay in the second inning last night should tell you that he is not washed up as a starting pitcher.

    The idea that Wang forgot out to pitch and needs to be traded, released or demoted is ludicrous. He’s 29, not 39.”

    Thank you Pete, for some level-headedness about Wang.

    On a serious note, what are the odds of Guidry actually coming?

  12. S.A.--Youuuuse is the new Jobber? June 11th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    I would be all for Gator to come back and provide some help regarding Wang. They need to do something, this is just sad to watch. Though, sadly I don’t see the yankees doing this. We will see.

  13. Patrick June 11th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    Kind of silly to blame the bad pitching on Dave Eiland. When are the players accountable for their own performance?

  14. Boogie Down Bob June 11th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    A-Rod needs to step up tonight and have a Tex like performance.

    The one bright spot from last nights game was Mark Teixeira. He’s playing like an MVP.

  15. Bob(The Original) June 11th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    Wasn’t Guidry the pitching coach when Wang went out there and laid two big fat eggs in the 2007 playoffs?

  16. DB June 11th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    I don’t know, but from the outside I would take the advice of a proven 20 game winner who had great success in the majors to a flash in the pan who didn’t amount to much. Wang looks like a very proud man and I’m sure this is killing him. But, let’s not just see the trees for the forest here.

    The reason Wang is inconsistent is because he lacks repetitions. Is Eiland really that dumb that he doesn’t realize that 10 to 20 pitches in a bullpen doesn’t equate to the ups and downs in a game and 50 to 100 pitches?

    Wang doesn’t need Guidry to rag on him (which is what he did) He needs INNINGS!!!

    He supposed to get them in AAA.

  17. John June 11th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    Pete,

    I agree completely. This staff, under Eiland, walks WAY too many guys, and the walks are being issued, as you pointed out, by guys who didn’t seem to have a problem attacking the zone before (even Hughes and Joba, who showed terrific command when they first came up, have become walk machines). I am not impressed with Eiland at all as I have not seen any of these pitchers really improve dramatically.
    The Wang situation, to me, is as much on this staff and the Yankees as anything else. They sent him down to the minors after his rough beginning, which is fine. He had a 30 ERA. But then, after leaving him down there, they foolishly brought him up to protect against Joba not being able to go, then, when it was clear Joba would be able to pitch, they still left him in the pen, let him languish there a few weeks with no real direction, then threw him back into the rotation, and are now being mysterious about whether or not he will make his next start. Am I the only one who realizes how important this guy is to the season?
    With Wang pitching well, you have, at the very least, three guys you expect to give you innings each time out. It also ensure that the Yankees can take their time with Joba and can deal with any age-related inconsistencies or injuries Andy Pettitte might suffer. Without Wang? Hughes, with pitch count and innings limits, would be thrust into the season as a full time starter, where he could either flourish or fail; Joba would have to be stretched because he would no longer be viewed as simply your fifth guy; Pettitte couldn’t afford to give in at all to father time; and AJ Burnett would have to make good on this “impressive” streak he keeps talking about everytime some other team serves him up on the mound.
    Knocking this guy around like a ping pong is unacceptable and I personally believe that both Eiland and Girardi don’t seem to like Wang personally, and they seem more than willing to just leave him hanging here.
    I believe Wang can be fixed. Isn’t helping a guy GET FIXED the reason you have a coaching staff?

  18. swingsandmisses June 11th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Maybe the hard sinker is just a difficult pitch to stay consistent with. Fausto Carmona is an ex-19 game winner too. He had some injury problems, came back and got hit hard, and now he’s down in rookie ball trying to rebuild his mechanics. The Indians were lucky that they had a minor league option on him left, which unfortunately is not the case with CMW.

  19. raymagnetic June 11th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    “Kind of silly to blame the bad pitching on Dave Eiland. When are the players accountable for their own performance?”

    Actually kind of works both ways. Eiland can’t get all the credit or take all the blame either.

  20. vb03 - Free Wang!!! June 11th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    “I personally believe that both Eiland and Girardi don’t seem to like Wang personally, and they seem more than willing to just leave him hanging here.
    I believe Wang can be fixed. Isn’t helping a guy GET FIXED the reason you have a coaching staff?”

    QFT.

    The Yankees as an organization could not have handled CMW any worse than they did.

    Like some have said here, if Scott Boras was his agent, this would have already turned very ugly for Cashman.

  21. raymagnetic June 11th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    “(even Hughes and Joba, who showed terrific command when they first came up, have become walk machines). ”

    They have virtually no major league experience either. They’re both still learning how to pitch. Once they learn their craft the walks will come down I imagine.

  22. SL95 June 11th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    It’s time to move on….

    Much as I’ve been a strong Wang advocate these last few weeks, after last night’s dismal performance I just can’t bear to see him on the mound again in the pinstripes. He clearly hasn’t forgotten to pitch – not after striking out Youkilis – but he’s missing the temperament to pitch at the highest level in the game. It’s sad to watch someone who is clearly so talented struggle so much. But, baseball is a business. And Hughes is waiting in the wings. Forget about bringing in Guidry. We need to move on

  23. Bob(The Original) June 11th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Are some of you people really that big a herd of sheep?

    None of us know really how good or bad Eiland is a as a pitching coach. We don’t know what goes on and really how much effect he has one way or the other on these guys.

    Yet one post from Pete(Wang’s personal PR rep.) and you all are ready to blame him for everything.

    Pathetic.

  24. Shame Spencer June 11th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    In all fairness to Pete I dont think he’s trying to say Eiland should be fired. I think the overall point here is that the organization hasnt done a lot to help Wang in this entire process. Whether it was last year when they made it seem as if he could pitch, or more recently when they rushed him back to the majors and left him hanging in the bullpen, something has been wrong. I dont think its exactly Eiland’s fault either, as Wang is a grown man who has been a pitcher for years. He certainly should be capable of fixing this… but it shouldnt go unnoticed that the organization as a whole hasnt done much to help that process.

    I think Wang should get his next start and see how he fairs against a terrible NL team. The only part that worries me is him picking up a bat….

  25. Wave Your Hat June 11th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Wang got some bad breaks last night that made his numbers look worse than they should have been. Plus, he did look good striking out Youkilis and Bay to end the second.

    However, the problem is inconsistency, and you can’t be a reliable starter if you are inconsistent.

    Wang was very inconsistent in the first and the third. He walked the bases loaded in the first and IMO was lucky to get out of the first allowing only one run. He was throwing so many pitches that even had he not given up the hits in the third he was not long for the game.

    Right now, Wang is putting the team in some bad holes. To me, even if there might, and I emphasize “might”, be a payoff down the road, it doesn’t make sense to keep taking the risk of starting out 4 runs down.

    Especially when Hughes is pitching like he is.

    Let Wang work long relief in spots similar to where Hughes pitched last night. He’ll have opportunities there, and the Yanks won’t be taking risks with him.

    For those concerned with whether the Yanks have dropped the ball on Wang’s rehab, it doesn’t really matter whose fault it is. The problem is where to go from here.

    Now, if Girardi and Eiland are willing to give Wang another start, I’d defer to their judgment. But failing that, I can’t see another start for Wang until he has done more to show he is ready for it.

    If there were no Hughes to take Wang’s starts, I might view things differently. But Hughes is there, and pitching well.

  26. The Skipper June 11th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    trisha – OPPC lifetime member
    June 10th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
    “I have to say Trish is very annoying. She can’t see the writing on the wall. 0-7 against the Sox.”

    Idiot

    Trisha, Looks like you are the IDIOT ! LOL :-) :-)
    :-) :-)

  27. DB June 11th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Boogie down, I could car less if ARod gets a golden sombrero tonight as long as they win the game. This losing streak against Boston is ridiculous and embarrassing. The team needs a rightful thumping of them. A nice 10-0 win to get their confidence back. Truth be told, I’ll take any old win about now though.

  28. The Skipper June 11th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Oh Trisha, Where are you? Eating Bon Bons on the couch!!!

  29. Doctor in the house June 11th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Wang needs some Zoloft for his anxiety disorder. It’s worked wonders for Grienke in KC.

    Put Hughes in the rotation, he’s the guy that really needs innings at the MLB level right now.

  30. Matt June 11th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    You guys are giving Wang 2 starts and giving up on him? Even when he has been jerked around and hasn’t been given a chance to even build up his stamina? Are you guys serious?

    When Hughes first came up this year threw 5.2 IP and gave up 12 runs in his 2nd and 3rd starts of the season, but you didn’t say he was “done” and should be “released.”

    Wang needs to be given at least 3-4 starts before ANYONE judges him. How can you seriously judge him when he has had no chance to build up his stamina or pitch regularly yet? You need to let him pitch consistently and build up his control before you say he can or can’t do it anymore. When he pitches once every 7 days for 30-40 pitches and hasn’t even been built up to 100 pitches before that, it’s hard to expect him to be lights out right away.

    If you are so willing to give up on a guy who is so talented and has his STUFF right now even, then thank god you are not the general manager of this team. What about when Wang started the season in 2006 with a 4 inning clunker against Oakland and got pounded by KC early in the season? Was he done then?

  31. AD June 11th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    “Eiland sounds like a jerk. I hate the way he talks about Wang to the media.”

    You need to stop being so blindly Loyal and look at the numbers.

    CM. Wang is the reason the yanks bullpen got so much work and got gassed early on. It has been very good since He might be done, Im not saying with any definity, but it happens some players pitch very well for 3 or 4 years then lose it (See Orlando Hernandez, Denny Neagle, Steve Avery, Jose Lima)

  32. dennis-costanza June 11th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Wave-

    I was at the game last night and I enjoyed watching Hughes as this is the first time I had seen him pitch at Fenway. The regulars in our section were chatting at how poised he looked and how the ball was coming out of his hand. He looked very polished. He made a couple of mistakes but other than that he had a live fastball 94-95 on the Fenway gun and a a great curveball going.

    -dennis

  33. Doctor in the house June 11th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    “You guys are giving Wang 2 starts and giving up on him? Even when he has been jerked around and hasn’t been given a chance to even build up his stamina? Are you guys serious?”

    He has the worst ERA in MLB HISTORY.

    He’s won 19 games, but let’s face it, he can’t pitch in big games.

  34. Stultus Magnus June 11th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    I remember thinking that Guidry’s exit might affect Wang, I even asked Pete about it. In the end, they are pros and a coach’s departure shouldn’t destroy a player. But, like Wang IS Taiwan mentioned, I don’t like the way Eiland is not openly supportive.

    For those who think Wang’s a fluke, it wasn’t one 19 win year, it was two in a row AND he was on his way to a third one before getting injured. If Eiland can’t help Wang get back to pitching the way he did, then Eiland has failed.

  35. 86w183 June 11th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    I see nothing wrong with giving Guidry a chance to straighten the guy out. It doesn’t undermine Eiland to get an extra set of eyes looking at is arguably the key guy to the second half of the season.

    Pitching coach/player relationships are always a challenging thing. Leo Mazzone was a genius with Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux, but I doubt Steve Avery would annoint him for sainthood. Mazzone soon became an idiot when dealing with the Orioles pitching staff.

    Everypitching coach emphasizes throwing strikes and every major league pitcher is capable of doing so. It’s hard for me to blame Eiland for guys shying away from the strike zone.

  36. DB June 11th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Wave, I hear you bro. It’s hard to give him the ball when you got Hughes waiting there. But, I still think Wang needs innings and he isn’t going to get them in the pen. The Yanks can afford to throw him out there a couple more times to get some reps under his belt. He should have gotten them in AAA and now they are stuck with the hand they dealt themselves. Suck it up and let him pitch is what I think. He will get straightened out.

  37. RayVT June 11th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Attitude and Aptitude are often misunderstood. What works for one person doesn’t necessarily work for another. Eiland has had his share of success stories he could claim Mussina, Bruney, etc, but which ones are really attributable to him and which ones aren’t. I seriously doubt Mussina was an Eiland convert. Mike had his own program and is very much like a machine in his preparations. Bruney I don’t know about so chalk him to Eiland.

    Eiland seems more like a controller than a teacher. So if you are young you follow blindly his instructions and perhaps they work for you. Wang who has a language barrier probably percieves feeling more so than the words even translated. It is apparent that Eiland is frustrated and that is clearly seen by Wang. Because Wang wants to do the right thing I believe he is trying too hard to do every step of instruction for each pitch or at least most pitches. It isn’t natural and it isn’t fluid, it is like a child learning to ride a bike, everything must be done in a sequence until it is completely ascertained. Gator’s good ole boy attitude of praise and emphasis on tweaks probably was easier for Wang to accept w/o thinking he was in a total collapse.

    If you are going to be a great Manager, Coach or teacher, you have to have a teachers heart not a controllers heart. Every student/player needs instruction that the student relates too, not just how the teacher wants to deliver it. Eiland and Girardi both are weak in this area IMO.

  38. CountryClub June 11th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Never mind The Gator, the Yanks should find the guy that actually taught Wang the sinker – Neil Allen. I dont know if he’s working for someone else right now, but if he’s not they need to get his rear end to the bronx for some one on one time with the Wanger.

  39. mymanlivingston June 11th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    Pete… I’m a litte confused here…

    Last night you say, Wang is awful and the Yankees can’t keep running him out there.

    Today you say, talk of demotion is “ludicrous”…

    Exactly which side of the fence do you want?

  40. CountryClub June 11th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    haha, the last sentence of my previous post could be taken way out of context…sorry about that.

  41. vb03 - Free Wang!!! June 11th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    I hope Wang regains his form and makes the Yankees pay extra when he hits FA, for how he has been treated this season.

    I almost never take one player’s side over the team, but everyone from the FO to the coaching staff dropped the ball badly on this one.

  42. Vince June 11th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    A pitching coach can watch video to make comparisons, correct some mechanics and make adjustments but they can’t get into a pitcher’s head.
    A pitcher has to feel good about himself and obviously Wang doesn’t. The same may apply to Burnett.

  43. Uncle Ellsworth (Expert texpert choking smokers don't you think the joker laughs at you?) June 11th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    The Skipper
    June 11th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
    trisha – OPPC lifetime member
    June 10th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
    “I have to say Trish is very annoying. She can’t see the writing on the wall. 0-7 against the Sox.”

    Idiot

    Trisha, Looks like you are the IDIOT ! LOL

    No skipper you are still the Idiot.

  44. Shout it out,a little louder please June 11th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    PETE I agree about Wang under Ron.
    LOOK Dave Duncan(Shelly’s dad,)Pitching coach ST LOUIS CARDS.

    ~He was on TV the other day,(while I was in St Louis,)and was asked if there was a pitcher that he regretted leaving the Cards.

    ~Duncan said KIP WELLS,not because he wasn’t a great talent or had the makings of a great pitcher.It was because he couldn’t reach him.

    ~KIP couldn’t comprehend what Duncan was asking him to do.

    ~SO yes it’s quite possible the coach could be the problem,for this pitcher.

    ~The Yankees should call in Ron let him work with Wang and him let come back and see if he’s back,it’s the least they could do.

    ~ *How do you keep Pavano for yrs and turn your back on* *Wang* ?

  45. murphydog June 11th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    Players are accountable for their performance. They are accountable at contract time and at arbitration time, and to a lesser degree, when they are part of a trade. In between those milestone events, during the season, they need help from coaches. That’s why every team has coaches in addition to a manager. A player needs objective advice on diagnosing problems and how to correct them.

    The team is paying a heavy price for Wang’s ineffectiveness. Thus, this is much more than a “Wang” problem. If, as is the case now, Neil Allen is not available to help, then try Gator. It cannot hurt Wang, IMO, and if it gets him winning again, what a great payoff for the team – and the fans.

  46. raymagnetic June 11th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    “Never mind The Gator, the Yanks should find the guy that actually taught Wang the sinker – Neil Allen.”

    As Randy l will tell you Allen is in the Tampa organization.

  47. Amos FrOtis June 11th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Good for you, Bob.

    Too many sheep on this blog, following Pete the Shepherd.

    “great post, Pete” “couldn’t agree with you more, Pete”

    Oh yeah? If that’s so, why didn’t YOU offer that suggestion?
    B
    ecause you, and Pete, don’t know squat about what goes on behind the curtain. To suggest that Dave Eiland, the guy who has helped to nurture Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, Melancon, etc. is to fault for the 2009 pitching woes is pathetic.

    Pettitte is serviceable at this age. What do you expect?
    Mo is older.
    Joba is young.
    Wang clearly can’t take it with him to the mound.

    Eiland is part of the answer, not part of the problem.

  48. Bobby June 11th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    The Joe Torre school of thought: Take the praise when things go well, place blame when they go bad. Eiland didn’t forget hot to coach just like Wang didn’t forget how to pitch.

    My guess? It’s June 11th. I wouldn’t get too high or too low on anything quite yet. That’s how it works.

    As for Wang, I have no problem running him out there but at this point you need to anticipate this can continue. Being in win-now mode every year means you need to make decisions quickly. Can’t have it both ways.

  49. vb03 - Free Wang!!! June 11th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    “How do you keep Pavano for yrs and turn your back on Wang?”

    Cashman, for years, has had Pavano’s back in both the media and the fanbase, when the bum has done absolutely nothing to help the team in his tenure.

    Haven’t heard a peep from him about the team’s ace for the past 3 years, now that he is struggling. No support, only successive screw-ups every step of the way.

  50. Stultus Magnus June 11th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    “Eiland is part of the answer, not part of the problem.”

    Then he should answer the question of why Wang is not doing well and FIX IT. Not stand there and say he can’t baby Wang.

  51. CountryClub June 11th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    Allen is still with the Yanks? Man, get those two together. That’s a no brainer in my opinion.

  52. AD June 11th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    Wow Pete. Dead on. Excellent analysis. Eiland isn’t doing his job with this pitching staff, and someone needs to be held responsible.

  53. tom in dc June 11th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    whatever let wang go. strasburg will be a yank soon enough

  54. CG June 11th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    How Steinbrenner-esque of you Pete.

  55. DB June 11th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    vb03, that would be interesting. Although, he has pitched so badly now that even if he went 10 – 0 with a 2.00 ERA his numbers wouldn’t translate into a big arb number.

    Unless, of course, he won the World Series MVP award….that would help ;)

  56. Stultus Magnus June 11th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    If you guys remember, Eiland was actually called up to help coach the 3 kids for a bit when Guidry was still here. If somebody poses the question to Eiland about getting Guidry to take a look at Wang, he should be a man and let it happen.

  57. Bill K June 11th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    Great job on ESPN Pete! They should’ve given you more airtime, you’re more knowledgeable than most of the people they have on there.

  58. Boogie Down Bob June 11th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Anyone think that if we lose tonight we’ll see the first rumbling of the 2009 season from our old friend Hank??

  59. Joekuh - All hail Manny, Fertility God(DESS!!!!!) June 11th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Amos, right now, Eiland doesn’t have the answers to Wang’s problem. Allen isnt available. Bring in Guidry, if he wants to come in. If it helps, then so be it.

  60. Stultus Magnus June 11th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Pete,

    When you appear on those shows, do they give you a link you could use to post on here? Wouldn’t mind seeing those appearances.

  61. GC June 11th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Pete are you auditioning to be Wang’s AGENT?

    You are out of hand defending this cry-baby head-case. Sorta like how silly Francessa was pining for Bernie. ROTFLMAO.

    Send him on Maternity leave then a trip to AAA until further notice.

  62. Fran (the original) and OPPC member June 11th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    Eiland can’t seem to help so why not try Guidry. When Guidry was the pitching coach 2 years ago didn’t the Yankees bring Eiland up from AAA with Hughes and Kennedy to support them (and coach them)when they were called up? The Yanks felt that Eiland was best for those two. I don’t think it’s anything against Eiland to now bring Guidry in to work with Wang.

  63. William Buckner June 11th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    I wouldn’t be shocked to see the Yankees look at the AAA pitching coach Scott Alred. He’s well respected and I’m pretty sure Eiland is on thin ice.

  64. The Skipper June 11th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    Maybe so Uncle Fester, But a correct one at that! :-)

  65. murphydog June 11th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    “If you guys remember, Eiland was actually called up to help coach the 3 kids for a bit when Guidry was still here. If somebody poses the question to Eiland about getting Guidry to take a look at Wang, he should be a man and let it happen.”

    S.Magnus is right. “What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.” (Been waiting to use that one for a long time).

  66. DB June 11th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    The only thing I know about Wang is what Kay said…he has the fate of a nation in his hands when he pitches. He actually drew a correlation to the Tiawanese stock market to Wang’s wins and losses. To say he is a cry baby? What makes you say that?

  67. Shout it out,a little louder please June 11th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    Clearly Wang has some problems,but he didn’t just stop knowing how to pitch.Because of the money invested,why not go thee extra step and get the help he needs.

    ~OR

    ~The Yankees will face him on another team REPAIRED and recording outs,kicking the Yankees butt, *like Pavano almost* *did* !!

  68. murphydog June 11th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    “You are out of hand defending this cry-baby head-case.”

    Cry-baby head-case? Seriously?

  69. GC June 11th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    PS:

    I DIDN’T FORGET HOW TO PITCH – boo hoo.

    NO OPTIONS – you can give him the “option” to go to mop-up role ( & blow any chance of a large contract renewal) or agree to Minors or Injury Rehab/DL until Aug/Sept.

    GATOR – how did he help Wang in his playoff meltdowns. Or when Clueless started him on the ROAD with a 5.5+ road ERA. ROTFLMAO at the wang homers.

  70. Amos FrOtis June 11th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    I’m confused.

    Eiland has been working with Wang since the start of 2008 ST. Wang was 8-2 before he hurt his foot.

    Since then, his troubles should be attributed to Dave not being able to “fix him”?

    29 year-old with that track record needs to fix himself. Take the advice of his coach, which he seems to be doing in the pen, and take it on the field. Which he’s not.

    I think Girardi is to blame for sending Wang to score from second in Minute Maid park when up 6-0 in the 6th inning.

  71. JP June 11th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    Eiland’s comments are definitely what passes for “strong” as far as public statements from a coach go. In my experience, this is usually code for “he’s not working as hard as I think he should be.”

    Could that be the issue? Or is Eiland simply a crappy pitching coach? He was a fairly crappy pitcher, so…

    That said, I really don’t think the pitching (or hitting) coaches really make all that much of a difference on any team.

  72. Joekuh - Will stand behind Eiland under the O’Neill Banner June 11th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Skipper –
    You’re proud to say that you called the team you cheered for to go 0-7 against their archrival? Wow. What a fan you are.

    Country Club –
    Neil Patrick Allen is currently the pitching coach for the Montgomery Biscuits, Double-A affiliate of the Tampa Bay Rays.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Allen

  73. Andrew June 11th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Blaming coaches is like red meat for disheartened Yankees fans. I remember the bogus hitting coach carousel that the Yankees rode (Chambliss, Denbo, Rick Down, Mattingly and so on) in the late 90s and early 2000s, as if changing the guys working with the hitters would make that much of a difference on how the offense performed, not changing the players themselves.

    Granted, pitching is a much finer art and there is definitely more to the coaching of pitchers, but the idea that it’s on Dave Eiland to fix Wang’s performances during games is just misplacing things. Wang needs to be able to adjust out on the mound, he needs to be able to fight through jams and figure out how to combine his 94-mile an hour sinker with good control and economic pitching–Dave Eiland can pretty much just talk about his arm slot and his mechanics, but Wang actually has to do it.

  74. Amos FrOtis June 11th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    JP –

    Tough love is going around that team right now. Some guys I think are frustrated with Wang – the tone of the responses tells it all.

    Damon wanted Hughes to be tougher.

    I think Eiland knows that Wang can perform, as his sessions are proof of. But the tone of his responses can be considered “tough love” – motivate Chien to do what he knows deep down he can.

  75. Patrick from CT June 11th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Pete, I think you’re right. Send Eiland back to AAA.
    As the saying goes 3 strikes and you’re out. Wang should get one more chance. I’m not so sure that should be next week though.
    Next Monday is an off day so the Yankees don’t need a fifth starter. Phil Hughes has pitch well in the Pen and could well be needed until Bruney is back.
    Stick Wang in the Pen and hope for a blowout game next week that you can get him into. If he does well, give him the start when a 5th starter is need again. If not Hughes slots in…

  76. Old Fezziwig June 11th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    There’s a brilliant idea. Bring in a guy who was a complete disaster as pitching coach, a total vanity hire, and have him undermine your entire coaching staff giving a head case pitcher useless advice. What’s Guidry going to do? Spit seeds and tell Wang to work on his slider? That’s all he ever seemed to do when he was here. Here’s a suggestion that isn’t inane: stick Wang in the back end of the bullpen and let Hughes pitch every fifth day.

  77. bodhisattva - OPPC member - Destiny Wears Pinstripes June 11th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    Matt
    June 11th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
    You guys are giving Wang 2 starts and giving up on him? Even when he has been jerked around and hasn’t been given a chance to even build up his stamina? Are you guys serious?
    When Hughes first came up this year threw 5.2 IP and gave up 12 runs in his 2nd and 3rd starts of the season, but you didn’t say he was “done” and should be “released.”
    Wang needs to be given at least 3-4 starts before ANYONE judges him. How can you seriously judge him when he has had no chance to build up his stamina or pitch regularly yet? You need to let him pitch consistently and build up his control before you say he can or can’t do it anymore. When he pitches once every 7 days for 30-40 pitches and hasn’t even been built up to 100 pitches before that, it’s hard to expect him to be lights out right away.
    If you are so willing to give up on a guy who is so talented and has his STUFF right now even, then thank god you are not the general manager of this team. What about when Wang started the season in 2006 with a 4 inning clunker against Oakland and got pounded by KC early in the season? Was he done then?
    ==========================

    Well said. Agree. Can’t believe people on here already have him shipped out.

    Gimme a break.

  78. Jon Ringland June 11th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    Well said, Pete. Great points througout, for once we’re in complete agreement!

  79. Joekuh - Will stand behind Eiland under the O’Neill Banner June 11th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    Amos, tough love is all good, but its not going to come overnight. Wang needs workto figure out his release point. The velocity is back. it’s the release point that needs work now. The only way to figure that out is to keep throwing. He’s not gonna be able to do that out of the pen.

  80. Scorpio June 11th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    What kind of talk is that to come out of a coach’s mouth?

    Eiland who said Kennedy was the best of Generation Trey, yeah, ok. Maybe that can still happen but so far…Not.

    Eiland who said AJ Burnett is close to domination…ugh, unless you call Tuesday doozy a precursor to domination…Wrong.

    And now he throws Wang under the bus? “Can’t stand behind him” – what load of dung is that to say even if you think it….Eiland should be fired!

  81. number 2 for prez June 11th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    tom in dc
    June 11th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
    whatever let wang go. strasburg will be a yank soon enough

    One of the dumbest comments I have ever read on this blog!

  82. Amos FrOtis June 11th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    We’re losing to a Red Sox team right now that should be stronger later this summer. That’s what worries me.

    We couldn’t beat a bad Beckett
    We couldn’t beat a spotty Wakefield
    We can’t beat a done Papi
    We can’t beat guys like Ellsbury, Green or Kottaras.
    We can’t get Varitek out

    What happens when that team fortifies itself with trades, which they are better positioned to than any AL team?

    Yanks need to plow through Interleague and win games they should.

    Because against Boston later this summer, it shouldn’t get any easier.

  83. Shout it out,a little louder please June 11th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    If Eiland is as hawkish as he seems on Tv it could be a personality conflict.

    ~Think of your favorite teacher and why they were the favorite.

    ~then think of your worst,what was the difference, could be their approach.

    ~The injury Wang had normally is found in football players,it was a freak accident,hes till has value he was told not to workout,it’s the Cashman’s fault too,he’s not ready.

  84. Amos FrOtis June 11th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    Scorpio:

    “And now he throws Wang under the bus? “Can’t stand behind him” – what load of dung is that to say even if you think it….Eiland should be fired!”

    Haven’t we coddled this guy enough? What he said says it all – it’s up to Wang now. He’s a 29 year old man – what more can his pitching coach do for him?

  85. Dan June 11th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Word – the talent is there – it’s all on the pitchers AND the pitching coach full stop – no trades needed – farm system will be ready…Eiland – this is NYC – get it together NOW

  86. rconn23 June 11th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    And what exactly is Dave Eiland supposed to tell Mariano Rivera? Throw the cutter? He’s 39 and coming off of shoulder surgery. Considering that, Mo has been fine.

    A.J. Burnett? Anyone who has followed his career knows this is who he is. A back of the rotation starter, who walks a ton of guys, and has a reputation for being a flake.

    Burnett throws two pitches. Curve, fastball. He refuses to throw his changeup. When he can’t locate one of his two pitches, he’s a disaster. I’m pretty sure Eiland has suggested that he try mixing in his changeup.
    I’m not sure what people expect Eiland can do with a 32-year old pitcher who has never been consistent, except for one half season the year before his next contract.

    Burnett is better suited for the pen, but because the team has so much money tied up in him, that will never happen.

    Edwar Ramirez and Jose Veras are a couple of organizational arms. Ramirez has one out pitch and a terrible fastball.

    Hitters lay off the changeup and cream his fastball. Unless Eiland can teach him another pitch, not sure how he can help him.

    This shouldn’t be breaking news, but Veras is really a bad pitcher. He pitched 30 decent innings last year, when most of the league hadn’t seen him yet, and he has an “established track record”? Apparently people forgot how terrible he was near the end of last season. Again, how should Eiland fix him. Tell him to through strikes?

    Pettitte is No. 5 starter at this point. He’s a veteran who throws a 88 mph fastball. That’s a recipe for a lot of baserunners. Unless Eiland can increase his velocity a couple of ticks, there’s not a lot that can be done.

    And as for Wang? If his arm slot is indeed fine in the bullpen and all over the place during the game, then Eiland’s “can’t stand behind him” comment is spot on.

  87. murphydog June 11th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Pitching coaches are not exactly fixtures on most teams, with some very notable exceptions (Duncan, Leo Mazzone to name two). They tend to come and go whether they are rightly or wrongly blamed for results. Teams have less money invested in them than the players, so it’s easire to justify moving them.

    You can be stubborn about how well your pitching coach is doing and conclude that it’s the player’s failure or you can try something else to see if it gets the player going again. If you’re sure it’s not the coach and it’s the player’s fault, exactly how do you test that theory? And why wouldn’t you try something else to help the player just to see whether a diferent voice makes a difference in results? If the second attempt with a different coach doesn’t work, what did you lose? If it works, however, the gain is significant.

    Everything is not solved with tough love. The players are human, not robots. Wang has never shown any indicia of being spoiled or weakminded or selfish and has performed at a high level. If he hasn’t earned the team going the extra mile, who has?

  88. ANSKY June 11th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    The stat on the number of HRs the pitching staff has given up has a lot to do with the stadium they play half their games in.

    Same as when the Stadium’s being criticized for how many HRs the Yanks have hit, it works the same for both sides when both sides are playing ball in the same place. We hit more, they hit more. That HR stat is a result of it, but it’s equal for both teams so it’s fair.

    Of course I’d like to see the Yanks hit more HRs and all their opponents hit fewer HRs, but I don’t think they can get away with moving the fences in & out (or up & down) between innings.

    The number of walks is a different subject.

  89. BG90027 June 11th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    If you believe that Wang is throwing well in the bullpen but not taking it into games what good would it do to have Guidry watch his bullpens? The implication behind “I Can’t Stand Behind him” to me is not that he’s saying that Wang lacks mental toughness but that there’s no obvious answer to what the coaching staff can do to fix him during the game and that he’s annoyed by hearing the same question over and over.

    I think Wang just needs more work. Hopefully a start against the Nationals will allow him to go more innings, work on his arm slot and re-build confidence. Some times it seems that the press is even more impatient than the fans which is quite an achievement.

  90. Joekuh - Will stand behind Eiland under the O’Neill Banner June 11th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    My new motto for CMW: lose a battle now, win the war later.

  91. Shout it out,a little louder please June 11th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    And why your at it ,bring in a new batting coach!!

    I have a challenge for all.

    ~Tonight watch Jeter,Damon,first 3 at bats, usually guaranteed outs, *unless it’s an bad team* . It’s frustrating,normally they hit for avg,and a lot of dbl plays.

  92. Mike June 11th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    Gator can teach Wang all he wants. But its up to Wang to put that education to use on the mound ! . .Gator can’t stand behind Wang !

    Maybe he comes across as an A– but Eiland is right.

    A sinker ball pitcher to me . .just doesn’t work well against a team like the Sox . There a veteran . patient team that will sit there and let Wangs sinkers sink out of the strike zone. then have them in a 2-2 or 3-2 count and then smash his fast ball ! .

    Look at Wangs outings against the Sox . . they get to him all the time.

    He does have a slider . .but hes way to inconsistent with it.

  93. NYSuperBlog June 11th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    Nice article Pete…just blame Dave Eiland for the fact that Wang gets lit up everytime he pitches these days. No one wants to see him back to his old self more than me, but blaming Eiland for Wang’s issues is insane and so is your post.

  94. rover June 11th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    wang! while to much is made out of a coaches inability to transfer performance to the field much like a manager. It is duly noted that coaching a player performing on the field as expected is basically not permitted where it isn’t needed. Wang didn’t forget how to win 19 games. Something due to his injury is the culprit. As he showed velocity and actually several devastating pitches last night I don’t believe now is the time to give up/but time to double up. Judging from last night. It may well be merely strength issues. While it may not be eilands fault, his seeming lack of responsibility is troubling. Regardless of the problem it is his job to fix it. Add in the fact there are 1 2 3 4 pitchers not exactly performing as advertised in and of itself is troubling.wang will get fixed. Don’t believe eiland is the man for the job.

  95. Matt June 11th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    60% chance of rain tonight in Boston, i will flip out if they dont play this game and i have to wait till august for a win against the sox

  96. Scorpio June 11th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    Wang hasn’t been coddled, just the recipient of brainless, knee-jerk reactions from a coaching staff (misjudging the severity of Wang’s injury, then calling him back from AAA when he wasn’t ready) that now wants to throw him under to cover their own arses.

    When Kennedy becomes Cy Young caliber & AJ is dominating then I’ll trust Eiland’s opinion until then he has zero credibility in MY book.

    Wang is his own man, and has to step up – no argument there. I’m not a fairweather fan that will forget what he has done for this team in the past 2.5 years.

    For those that like to quote Wang’s sad post-season performances, take alook at CC’s post season numbers…ain’t excatly ace-like, Andy P was also a so-so postseason pitcher, sometimes great other times awful.

  97. JT June 11th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    Two things:

    1) Releasing him or trading him IS ludicrous. The idea of demoting him and letting him work it out in the minors is not. Obviously he wouldnt clear waivers so thats not happening. But that is EXACTLY what the best thing to do would be.

    2) “I can’t stand behind him” means “thats what I do in the bullpens and give him feedback after every pitch” I dont think he took a dig at his mental toughness. Just that he cant feedback as much during a game. He’s not on the mound with him for every pitch.

  98. Fred Flintstone June 11th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    The reality is this — regardless of whether a boss, coach, etc … tells you how to do something in a manner that is readily or easily understandable, you, as an employee, player, etc … are responsible for doing your job properly. wang right now, regardless of whether eiland is doing a good job coaching him, is not doing a good job. to deflect blame to eiland is ridiculous and is an attempt to transfer all responsibility from wang.

  99. Sam June 11th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    So all the HRs and walks are Eiland’s fault? As it has been well documented, the new Stadium is giving up a lot of HRs, and I am sure there are some guys on the team adjusting their pitching because of that as well, which might lead to more walks. I agree with the posts that have complimented Eiland for last year’s success of many pitchers. Wang needs to get his innings in somewhere else – bullpen or AAA.

  100. Fran (the original) and OPPC member June 11th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    Matt – I also hope they get the game in tonight. The match-up definitely favors the Yankees.

  101. Patrick June 11th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    For what feels like the 50th time, Wang to the bullpen is not the answer.

    Let’s say Wang does go to the bullpen and Hughes takes his spot in the rotation. What happens if Pettitte gets hurt and can’t pitch for a few weeks? Who is the sixth starter? Kei Igawa?

    Hughes fills a valuable role on this team, he’s the sixth starter. Behind him there isn’t much quality.

    Even if you ignore this argument, Wang is not a bullpen pitcher, he takes too long to get ready. Basically he’d be a wasted roster spot reserved for games when our starter only goes 2-3 innings. Other than that he would be largely unused.

    Give Wang another start or two, if he still fails then DL him and let him throw some minor league rehab starts. That’s the only reasonable course of action.

  102. Jon Ringland June 11th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    “Wang needs to get his innings in somewhere else – bullpen or AAA.”

    Wang has zero AAA options…only way to send him down is to put him on waivers, which he’d never clear. Stuck with trying to figure out what the hells going on in the big leagues :-/

  103. Dassit June 11th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    There’s only so much a coach can do, if a player can’t execute (anymore), who’s to blame?

  104. Jon Ringland June 11th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    “There’s only so much a coach can do, if a player can’t execute (anymore), who’s to blame?”

    A-Rod.

  105. Andrew June 11th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    They don’t have to go through waivers if Wang agrees to a minor league assignment, I believe. But that would be a tough sell, considering the guy’s track record and what not. Although one more bad start, especially against the Gnats…

  106. Mike June 11th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    Give Wang one more start In Washington. He cant handle it . . BANG . Welcome to the Bullpen ! . . Enough

    IF he does well. . Then he gets another start . and we play it game by game !

    if he’s inconsistent then he goes back to the bullpen

  107. Matt June 11th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Love how people answer me on this blog….

    will they get the game in or no?

  108. Mark in Tampa June 11th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    “Tonight watch Jeter,Damon,first 3 at bats, usually guaranteed outs”

    Didn’t Jeter just come off of a 16 game or so 1st inning hit streak? Not against bad teams either, Yanks were playing first place Texas and the Rays, among others.

  109. Mike June 11th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    Im sure they’ll get this game in . . Im in Rhode Island and its the same as yesterday

  110. Matt June 11th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    Yeah the forecast for last night was 20% chance of rain..tonight it is 60…so lets hope they get this in

  111. Jordan - It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business. June 11th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    This Wang debate is going to be long and heated because of what he’s done for the Yankees in the past. Let me just throw out there that I am one of Wang’s biggest supporters. I flat out love the way he pitches and always said the people who argued he didn’t strike out enough batters were just searching for something to hate on when the guy won 38 games in 2 years.

    But the problem is this, how long is too long? If we let him start another game, so be it. What if he has a similar performance? Do we debate this again? When is it truly time to say this isn’t working, he can’t start for our team, which has aspirations of winning a World Series while playing in by far the toughest division in baseball?

    The bottom line to me is this, management has to put their team in the best position to win at all times. Chien-Ming Wang starting for the Yankees right now is not putting the Yankees in the best position to win. They made a huge mistake bringing him back up, but that’s over and done with.

    Phil Hughes is pitching better than Wang right now, there really is no argument to that. In sports fans tend to look at a player’s past, but that time is over and done with. Until Wang can prove himself to be consistently effective in the bullpen time after time, he can’t be trusted to put our beloved team in a consistent position to win games.

    Are we Chien-Ming Wang fans truly able to say give the guy chance after chance in hopes he reverts back to the 19 game winning guy we enjoyed watching even if it might cost us many more games? Our team is in a division with the Red Sox, not the White Sox. As tough as it can be, it’s about winning championships, folks, not about saying thanks for those two years in the past.

  112. Mark in Tampa June 11th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    The rain that is coming looks like a fairly thin line of showers, so they probably get it in with maybe a short delay.

  113. swingsandmisses June 11th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    “So all the HRs and walks are Eiland’s fault? As it has been well documented, the new Stadium is giving up a lot of HRs, and I am sure there are some guys on the team adjusting their pitching because of that as well, which might lead to more walks.”

    Bingo. Cone pointed out that Andy Pettitte is getting more outs on strikeouts at the Stadium now to reduce the number of balls in play that could fly out, and AP himself said he nibbles on the corners more because of the HR issue. Extrapolate to rest of staff. Hence, walk problem.

    As for Guidry’s work as pitching coach, would this be the same guy who so helpfully pretended Mike Mussina didn’t exist when he went through his tough stretch in ’07? I seriously doubt he has the solutions to the Wang problem.

  114. Shout it out,a little louder please June 11th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Jeter came off a hitting streak,but *it wasn’t 1st inning* ,he hit mostly in the later innings.

    ~Watch tonight,Brad isn’t that great,he may hit early,since he went0-5 yesterday.

  115. Jordan - It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business. June 11th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    Patrick,

    I disagree. You cannot field a team that isn’t your best option. Phil shouldn’t be sitting in the minors starting because we might have an injury at some point in the future. What if we don’t? It’s possible, the Rays did it last year. And even if we do, if it’s a run of the mill 15-day DL stint, what do we do then? Send Phil back down for the next injury while he performs better than a starter still on our team?

    I like the organizational depth and it’s a good thing we have over 5 potential starters, but we cannot worry that if someone gets hurt we have a spot starter from AAA come up. If it’s a much more significant injury, management deals with it accordingly by bringing someone up or making a trade.

  116. nathan June 11th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    I dont know if 0-7 should weigh on our mind as much as just being 1 GB… the 7 losses are gone… i will take a split of the reminder of the games right now…

  117. Wang in limbo June 11th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    When Eiland was hired last year, it’s because his strong connection with young pitchers like Hughes and IPK, but he failed to rescue them last year.

    Chien ming wang had a better k rate last year it’s because he gradually develops his slider and a much improved change-up which Gator has urged him to developed since 2007.

    Last year WANG had a hot start then fell into a big slump in May,they finally fixed in the last two starts before the stupid foot injury.Eiland said the trick was to speed up his leg kick as well as the arm speed.But it took five or six games for him and Wang to figure out ,in 2007 Wang also had similar problem late in the season,it only took Gator two games to fix Wang,I think in terms of finding problem of Wang,Gator had the edge ,yeah~ I know the pitching coach is not
    there only for Wang,but for now Wang is their major problem, it take a good coach
    to get him go through this,mentally or technically, Eiland maybe is good for developing
    a young pitcher but he is not good as to fixing a young pitcher’s struggle, see last year’s hughes and IPK, it’s very obvious he is not good at that.

  118. nathan June 11th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    Wang was never reliable… we all knew the ground balls can find the gap as much as the IF and for a guy who doesnt strike out that was not a good recipe… i am so glad they didnt extend him and compound the issue..

  119. Ed June 11th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    Go going Pete,
    Finally someone calls out Eiland.

  120. randy l. June 11th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    the yankees made a plan to start wang for 4-5 starts.

    he was better last night stuff wise in his second start last night.

    if you don’t believe it then watch the game again as i did.

    it’s easy to see.

    girardi’s and eiland’s mistake last night was talking before they looked at the video.

    i think you’ll hear a different story out of them after they do watch the video of the game.

    as far as command, he didn’t have it with the sinker. he had it with his four seam fastball.

    if i’m catching him and seeing the sinker is moving so much that it’s going below the strike zone, i’m calling for some four seam fastballs to get some strikes and make hitters be behind in the count and swing at some of those low sinkers.

    posada is not helping back there by not adjusting to the situation.

    that said, it was the freakin second start and his stuff was the best it;s been.

    show some toughness and stay the course.

    that’s what eiland and girardi need to do.

    girardi and eiland came close to choking last night losing their composure discussing wang like that.

    if they don’t regroup and start him the next game saying he actually had good stuff, i’ll be very surprised because i don’t think either one of them is a quitter.

  121. The Other Phil June 11th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    Fickle “fans” are fickle. Most of the same “fans” that want to throw Wang out with the trash are more concerned about 0-7 v. Red Sox than being 1 game back. A win tonight and the Yanks (not “WE” since I’m not on the team and neither are you!) are tied for 1st. That seems a little more important, no?

  122. Joekuh - Mr. Sutcliffe, surrender the yogurt. June 11th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    “There’s only so much a coach can do, if a player can’t execute (anymore), who’s to blame?”

    “A-Rod.”

    Considering A-Rod’s doc was the one that found Wang’s “hip” problem, yeah that sounds about right :D

  123. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 11th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    “I dont know if 0-7 should weigh on our mind as much as just being 1 GB… the 7 losses are gone… i will take a split of the reminder of the games right now…”

    I definitely agree with that perspective. The past is the past and you can’t change it. Time only goes forward and people who dwell on the past are allowing the past to rent space in their minds – and to what purpose! Move the flip on, I say.

    :)

    The really good thing about ball players is that they have the mentality that you need to look at the game in front of you and forget the rest. They obviously have to live that way or they’d be totally ineffective.

    What matters is that the Yankees end up on top at the end. Apparently losses to Boston haven’t hampered them severely.

    Here’s the good news though. If things follow their usual pattern, Boston will go into an immediate swoon after the Yankees leave and the Yankees will go on a tear! Perhaps worth it after all.

    By the way, I don’t think that the Yankees will end up 0-18 against Boston this season. But I’d be lying if I said that it is occupying my mind in any fashion because it just isn’t. In fact, I don’t particulary care what happens with Boston because I don’t believe Boston will be there in the end. And this is coming from someone who typically would rather see Boston lose than the sun come up!

    As always, I respect anyone’s right to disagree.

  124. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 11th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    “Fickle “fans” are fickle. Most of the same “fans” that want to throw Wang out with the trash are more concerned about 0-7 v. Red Sox than being 1 game back. A win tonight and the Yanks (not “WE” since I’m not on the team and neither are you!) are tied for 1st. That seems a little more important, no?”

    YOU BETCHA!

    Maybe there IS a pattern to what you are saying because I have no desire to throw Wang out with the trash.

  125. Pat M. June 11th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    What really hurt Wang last night was him falling behind the counts as the Boston hitters just waited for strike 1…..Randy I makes a good point about getting ahaead with his 4 seamer….Wang had his best movement of any of his outtings so far this season…..Give at least 2 more starts and watch for a continued improvement…..The club needs him in order to reach it’s full potential, a deep run come October….

  126. randy l. June 11th, 2009 at 1:37 pm

    eiland has his plate full and wang is a special case.

    his sinker is just as much a freak pitch as a knuckleball.

    eiland has had no history of teaching this pitch with wang.

    he’s got a dozen other pitchers he’s trying to keep right.

    why not as pete says delegate wang to guidry ?

    guidry also knows how to call up neil allen so know one knows about it.

    i personally think that was how he did so well with wang.

    i think he let allen still coach wang.

    i don’t now that, but it makes sense as allen and guidry are good friends.

    bottom line. what does it hurt having ron guidry around?
    he’s a great yankee. he had success with wang.
    if present egos can’t take having a great yankee around maybe they need to get a little tougher .

    that said eiland had brought him to the point of having good stuff . now all he has to do is get the command on the sinker down.

    the only crisis is eiland and girard throwing wang under the bus.

    they need to man up and stay the course.

    if they can’t guidry is one tough dude who can.

  127. randy l. June 11th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    pat m-

    i went back and watched looking for the four seamer and wang threw strikes at will with it.

  128. Yankee fans June 11th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    The duty for the head coach is to put the best team and win the game, that is for sure. but if you don’t give chances to a player. how can you expect them to win the game for you. Everyone know wang has 38 wins in the past two season. Do anyone know he has 13 lost also. Everyone believe Roy Halladay is one of best picture in the league but if anyone knows he get 10.63 era and 4(w)-7(l) in his third career year.
    you may say Wang is not Roy. we cannt compare those two guys, but as I mention if you dont let him try , how can you expect he can fly. I truly believe the responsibility of coach is not only put the best team together but also 100% truly your player and believe the capability of your players.

    now thinking about wang’s past records, like posada said”Wang desire the next starting to proof himself”

  129. KM June 11th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    You know, I’m normally all for Pete’s “everybody calm down” posts, but I think this one is a bit misplaced.

    First off, like several commenters have pointed out, Eiland can hardly be blamed for the list of pitching problems Pete gives, especially Pettitte and Mo. Those guys are getting older, and to see them be less than their previous selves is to be expected.

    But more importantly, the negative reactions to Wang at this point are not ludicrous. Yes, Yankee fans overreact to a lot of things, but this is not one of them. This is a situation where it is ok to question whether Wang’s earned another shot.

    Yes, before last year, Wang won a lot of games. And sure, ok, that earns him a bit of leeway.

    But he’s not in a little funk. This isn’t a slump or a minor setback. I’m going to resist the temptation to put this in Caps Lock, but this season, he’s given up 34 earned runs in only 21 innings. Opponents are averaging .446 against him. He’s being given the opportunity to turn it around, and he hasn’t. He’s certainly improved from the beginning of the season, but that’s a ludicrously low bar for comparison. The fact that he’s no longer godawful is hardly a convincing argument in his favor.

    Yes, clearly the coaching staff needs to step up, but this is absolutely an ok time to think about whether Wang should remain a starter for this team. You simply can’t expect to compete in the AL East this year if one of your starters, the guy who should be your #2, has an ERA over 14 in June.

    He either has to improve significantly in the very near future, or they need to find someone to replace him with, because right now, he is just not pitching well enough to start a game for an AL East division contender.

  130. Whatever June 11th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    Dave Eiland, I feel your pain. You have no doubt spent hours upon hours working with CMW only to watch two different pitchers; the one who responds to your coaching in the side sessions and the sad shell of a pitcher who melts before your eyes on the mound. And, for this, you get treated to calls for your head.

    Beer anyone?

  131. randy l. June 11th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    “Give Wang another start or two, if he still fails then DL him and let him throw some minor league rehab starts. That’s the only reasonable course of action.”

    patrick-
    not a bad plan , but i’d make it three starts with hughes coming in behind him on every one of them.

    get wang up to 100 pitches and i think the problems will be solved.

    with hughes coming in behind him, there’s a chance they can still win some games .
    they won the first game and lost by a run last night.

    what we had last night was a whole lot of over reaction because it was the red sox.

  132. MaineYankee June 11th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    randy

    Is this an imposter? You are making sense today. :lol:

  133. Anthony June 11th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    Two words: Rick Peterson. Dump Eiland, what has the guy done to merit this kind of loyalty?

  134. Patrick June 11th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    “not a bad plan , but i’d make it three starts with hughes coming in behind him on every one of them. ”

    Fair enough. I too think that if Wang keeps pitching he will work himself out. It’s pretty clear that he’s extremely rusty with his mechanics. He just needs innings to get back in a groove as well as improve his arm/leg strength.

  135. randy l. June 11th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    “Is this an imposter? You are making sense today”

    maine yankee-
    i always make sense.
    you’re probably just smarter somedays than others :)

  136. chambliss June 11th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Wang should not be figuring things out or attempting to regain his confidence at the major league level, and particularly not at Fenway Park. He needs to go on the DL with another abdominal strain or other phantom injury, and stay in the minors until he dominates the competition.

    If he has issues with his arm slot or release point he has to figure out those issues in games that have to meaning to the Yankees.

    Year in and year out, the race for the division and the wildcard comes down to just a few games. The Yankees cannot afford to give away games in such an environment. Starting a young pitcher with mechanical and confidence issues is giving away games in my book.

    I can think of two guys off the top of my head who would probably keep the Yankees in games and who are available: Byrd and Pedro. Both are far from perfect solutions, but they are seasoned vets who know how to pitch.

    As for Eiland, the strategy for facing the Red Sox is all wrong to me. The Yankees try to be way to fine with them. You have to pound the strike zone. Walks turn into runs at Fenway. It is a given. The first inning last night is a perfect case in point. Drew and Youk walk and then Bay hits a grounder through the hole to score the first run.

  137. Paul June 11th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Relax people. As Sutcliffe pointed out last night, Wang was able to make pitches in necessary situations last night (i.e., bases loaded and 3-0 count in first, strike outs of Youkilis and Bay with runner on in the second). His problem was that he was not consistently repeating his delivery, which was causing his sinker to flatten and his velocity to drop. Wang missed 3/4 of a year of physical activity, as he could not run over the winter. Given time and patience (and strength in his right foot), he will recover his delivery and be fine.

    As for the ridiculous “Fire Eiland” meme that is making its way across the internet, please stop treating every game against the Red Sox like its the 7th game of the WS. It is true that we have lost 7 straight to the Red Sox. It is also true that despite being 0-7 against the Red Sox, we are 1 game back, which means we have been SIX games better than them against every one else. Burnett will straighten himself out, Joba will learn to conserve pitches and go deeper into games as he matures, the bullpen has already begun to stabilize, and Wang will eventually figure out how to maintain his stuff over the course of the game (either in the rotation or bullpen). This is a very good and very likable team that is well built to play into October. Settle down and try enjoying the team instead of complaining and panicking for once.

  138. Tim Sherman June 11th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Wang just needs to pitch. He is healthy now. His velocity is back. He’s just inconsistent right now due to lack of work. Let him pitch his way out of it. The Yankees are 1 game out of first. If Wang loses a couple of games right now it is no big deal. The fact of the matter is that they screwed up when they put him back in the rotation. The result was Burnett pitching on 7 days rest and Wang not pitching well against Boston. Dumb decision by management. They should have waited until after the Boston series if they were going to tinker with the rotation. They also screwed up when they activated him. He could have been building stamina and arm strength in the minors until he is ready to go six or seven innings consistently. Not sure who makes these two decisions, but they were bad ones in my opinion. Now they need to have his back and just let him pitch his way out of it.

  139. Robert S. June 11th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    So Dave Eilland is teaching the Yankee pitchers to be as effective as … Dave Eilland was in his brief, glorious Yankees career?

  140. dl June 11th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    It’s difficult to evaluate how much of Wang’s problems are Eiland’s “fault” but the truth is he bears some (not all) responsibility in making sure the pitchers are where they need to be.

  141. Cookiekaikai June 11th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    >vb03 – Free Wang!!! June 11th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    >I hope Wang regains his form and makes the Yankees pay >extra when he hits FA, for how he has been treated this >season.
    ——————————————————-
    Agreed. I hope Wang get fixed, win 21 games next year then leave for another team that knows how to treat your former ace (who struggles like crap) properly.

  142. seanm24 June 11th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    wow – typical pete abe CMW can do no wrong post. this beautifully written 444 word post now brings to light that his struggles are eiland’s fault. the only way this could have been more predictable would be if you mentioned that arod’s positioning at 3B are the root of his hanging sinker or joe girardi’s crewcut is the cause for his seemingly fraile psyche.
    mo is a god…but he’s getting older and coming off of surgery – for eiland to take a hit on that would be about as disingenuous as eiland taking credit for his CG against the orioles.
    pete i love the blog – but your transparent shots at arod, girardi and mon-love of all things CMW, hughes, shelley duncan are getting very very old

  143. JeterHughesJoba June 11th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    The best thing to do is keep Wang in the rotation. The main reason is that I believe the Yankees will need Wang to be himself (a solid #2 pitcher) to have a shot at winning it all this year. This is based on a few main factors:

    1. Hughes and Joba both have innings limits that will come up around late August or early September.

    2. AJ Burnett is not exactly mr. consistency.

    3. That leaves CC and Pettitte.

    This team needs Wang to turn it around. Focusing on the big picture they need to give Wang the necessary starts in June to have a good rotation for the stretch run and playoffs.

  144. mmx June 11th, 2009 at 5:40 pm

    I used to be a Wang believer, but really have lost confidence on him.

    If Wang can’t turn around fast, Yankees might have to trade him away.

  145. GiantsCauseway June 12th, 2009 at 8:52 am

    Wang is lousy, he should go to the bullpen. Sandy Kofax lost it, Walter Johnson lost it, Cy Young lost it. All have lost it due to age or injury. Time to quit hoping Wang comes back, he is done for now, stop letting him kill the team.

  146. beagle June 12th, 2009 at 9:26 am

    Eventually, I think Wang will be fine, either here in NY or somewhere else. He still has good stuffs like 95MPH sinker and others. Even Pavano, who is 33, can have a decent comeback and Wang is only 29. Maybe he, like many previous Yankees, can consider LA Dodgers as a choice.

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