Bruney to Trenton tomorrow
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jun 12, 2009 
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Two quick injury updates for you:
Brian Bruney will pitch in the first game of Trenton’s doubleheader tomorrow. The Yankees did consider activating him but decided against is. With the bullpen in the shape it’s in, they could make another move tomorrow to bolster it.
Damaso Marte is going to see Dr. James Andrews on Monday. That can’t be good.
Mark Teixeira is the first to claim the new belt. Let that be a lesson to you young ballplayers, always run hard.
lol
who gets cut or sent down and who gets brought up
Tex even beats out the birthday boy
rmel,
Probably Robertson. Girardi and Cashman are in love with Veras and Tomko
Summers starting right now
Fire Cashman!
Look at Boston’s bullpen and then look at the Yanks bullpen. Theo owns Cashman.
“Probably Robertson. Girardi and Cashman are in love with Veras and Tomko”
If thats the case its a disgrace….The AAA is in GA wonder if it would be someone on the AA roster
“Mark Teixeira is the first to claim the new belt. Let that be a lesson to you young ballplayers, always run hard. ”
Glad to see that the team gave the belt to the deserving player.
Please don’t let the call up be Albaladejo or Edwar. And Robertson has pitched well makes zero sense sending him down.
I uploaded the YES post-game reactions in the last thread, if anybody missed them.
On another subject, only because a couple of idiots were yammering about Cano’s “error”. That’s a perfect example and a reason for a “team error”. The ball is on target (or a tad off line) but right at the catcher and the throw hits the runner sliding in. The real error was on Swisher’s blown catch on Beltran.
Chamberlain’s talking about having it easy the first two innings is BS. He might have gotten the outs, but in the first two innings, he was 18 strikes and 19 balls He was lucky to get them swinging on the full counts.
Thanks, Pel…so awesome.
They could have been real cruel and brought the belt over to the Mets clubhouse and given it to Castillo.
Bullpen is in shambles for tomorrow
Rivera threw 30 pitches
Robertson threw 30 pitches
Coke has gone 3 days in a row
Hughes probably still unavailable
Tomko 37 pitches (and he sucks)
All we have is Aceves and Veras. Andy better go deep.
Any pictures with tex and the belt? Yes only showed him at the table for press conference.
I do not understand all this crap about Posada’s style behind the plate, and how he calls a game……Look at the wealth of great pitchers he has caught……Hell most of the people here along with Chamberlain had these pitcher’s baseball cards……Man I just don’t find this crap funny anymore…..Most have been here at The LoHud for awhile, you should have learned something about baseball by now…….
from last thread…
“I think Joba and Posada need to talk more in between innings so Posada can get a feel for which pitches Joba is “feeling” that night.”
Maybe yes and maybe no. The question is whether or not Joba is doing a good job of calling his own game?
I can’t say that he is.
Given that is it a good thing that he’s constantly shaking off the catcher?
Would it be better if posada just gave in to what Joba wanted.
Tons of people said that joba was nibbling. Posada may feel that way and is trying to force joba out of this bad habit.
Joba had a lot of trouble after he got 2 strikes on guys. Why? Part of the reason is that he’s becomes mind boggling repetative with 2 strikes. As a hitter why would you not sit on a slider. He throws it over and over and over.
And too often he throws his slider as a waste pitch that hitters might have swung at when he first came up but don’t swing at anymore way too often.
Joba needs to focus on establishing his fastball early in games and needs to use his terrific change up and curve more often.
His change up is sick and he doesn’t use it enough.
So if Posada is trying to get him out of these bad habits then good for him.
“Giving kids the advice about “always run hatd” is a good point, but, I think Jimmy Dugan had better advice to kids when signing autographs.
always run ***hard***
Would they call up a long-man, or are we talking about a guy like Mark Melancon?
You know, this is going to lead to the inevitable Tables, Ladders, and Chairs match of Tex vs. John Henry.
E-C-DUB! E-C-DUB! E-C-DUB!
In the Yankee lockerroom post game was Peter Abraham, Tyler Kepner, Sweeney Murti, and “Mean” Gene Okerlund.
Tex and John Henry should meet under the O’Neill banner.
On the Posada Chamberlain front how quickly some of you forget POsada was behind the plate when JOba went 8 and whom did he credit on calling a great game and them being totally on the same page in his post game but Jorge.
Just seeing the Bradley play he and Larry Walker andhow great was Pinella’s post game coments on it
My God… that’s… that’s… THAT’S TINO MARTINEZ’ MUSIC! NO! NOOOOOOOOO!!!
A-Rod got the win by yelling HA again!
“I do not understand all this crap about Posada’s style behind the plate, and how he calls a game……Look at the wealth of great pitchers he has caught……Hell most of the people here along with Chamberlain had these pitcher’s baseball cards……Man I just don’t find this crap funny anymore…..Most have been here at The LoHud for awhile, you should have learned something about baseball by now…….”
Some would prefer Cervelli behind the plate. Now I like Cervelli. He has been nothing short of lights out, but I can’t understand where people get off suggesting that hes better than Posada when he’s only been up here a short time. To me you can’t even compare the two. Thats like an insult to Posada
“I do not understand all this crap about Posada’s style behind the plate, and how he calls a game…..”
CC Sabbathia is one of the most intelligent pitcher I’ve personally seen work for this team. He works like Mussina in his prime – only CC has better stuff.
For everyone going crazy about posada here’s a question -
Have you ever seen CC shake off Posada like Joba did today? Even close?
Did you ever seen Mussina do this in the past?
Andy?
Wells?
Cone?
No. I’ve never seen any pitcher shake off posada and few catchers as a whole like joba did tonight.
So what’s the variable? What’s changing.
Posada doesn’t have nearly these issues with CC or Burnett or Andy or Hughes or Wang.
So it’s not him folks.
It’s Joba. He’s the issue.
And i’ve supported joba as much as anyone on this board.
He’s the issue here not posada.
Steve Berthume, the host of Baseball Tonight on ESPN, refers to Yankee Stadium as “The whiffle ball ballpark in the Bronx”
In the Yankees’ locker room for post game was Tyler Kepner, Sweeney Murti, Filip Bondy, and “Mean” Gene Okerlund.
“Who else other than Posada has Chamberlain ever shaken off like that? I’d wager NOBODY! And there’s a reason why. It’s because Posada is absolutely AWFUL when it comes to calling a game — in addition to being awful at most of the fundamentals of being a catcher.”
jay-
i’ve caught guys who have started mlb all star games and i’ve been taught how to catch from some very good mlb catchers.my opinion is that posada isn’t the best at calling pitches i’ve ever seem , but he isn’t bad.
joba on the other hand doesn’t have a clue on how to call a major league game.
no clue at all. he’s using up all kinds of energy thinking instead of executing.
he’s screwing up the routine of every fielder out there by delaying the pitch.
the pitcher is not in charge of the game. the manager is. girardi can tell either the catcher or the pitcher who’s in charge.
if i were girardi, i’d make it clear to joba that posada is in charge.
i’d be surprised after tonight if there isn’t a three way meeting, and i don’t think it’s joba who’s going to be doing the talking.
Interesting thing Yankees sold Todd Linden to Japan, opening up a roster spot in AAA for an OF. Unfortunately tonight Colin Curtis turned his ankle on the bag at 1B, the guess was he was getting the promotion, either him or Vasquez or Edwar Gonzalez.
Wow, I can’t believe the Yankees actually made the right decision with Bruney
Pete, you said the same thing about Bruney – I hope we get good news tomorrow. I don’t get how tendonitis can turn into something else – did the Yankees misdiagnosis Marte?
Thanks, CB. You are correct.
No. I’ve never seen any pitcher shake off posada and few catchers as a whole like joba did tonight.
**************************************************
Me either. Maybe El Duque? And I’m not even sure about that really. But very few.
Robertson has been great. I hope they don’t send him down. that’d be a shame
Both Ramirez and Albaladejo pitch 3 innings thursday night and are in GA…Maybe mike dunn….He is on the 40 man and he only 1hr away…he world just be needed until after sunday’s game
“On the Posada Chamberlain front how quickly some of you forget POsada was behind the plate when JOba went 8 and whom did he credit on calling a great game and them being totally on the same page in his post game but Jorge.”
So true.
All of a sudden Posada’s game calling skills have deteriorated.
Joba’s pitch selection is a problem.
If Posada is trying to break him of those poor habits than good for posada.
Today was the day for miscues. Milton Bradley threw a ball into the stands thinking there were 3 outs when in fact there were only 2.
You’re right, gayle.
Funny thing. Maybe the issue was that Joba’s fastball wasn’t quite there, and he was falling into the old slider habit, which he didn’t control. Like the old saying, it’s easy when all your stuff is working, the trick is winning when your stuff isn’t there. And Joba and Jorge had different ideas of direction there. Anyway, there needs to be one head calling pitches, and until young Joba gets to the Halliday/Santana level, I’d suggest Posada. I would think old catcher Girardi would agree.
Read this thread for lots o’ laughs.
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/.....38;page=49
And people thought Yankee fans overreacted…
“did the Yankees misdiagnosis Marte?”
Wouldn’t be the first time if they did.
Gardner is second in steals only to Derek Jeter and Gardner is a part time player so he does steal.
And Mark Teixeira has become a legend in the bronx!
Yes, but as has been an issue with pitchers in the past, some don’t like Jorge catching them, some do. One thing is for sure though, he isn’t working well with a couple of these guys or has gotten accustomed to them yet. Whether it’s the injury or catching in spring training or what. He also seems unable to calm them down, Burnett and Joba. It’s not Jorge’s fault, but these guys are not getting into a groove like CC is with Cervelli. And I love Jorge, but it is clearly the weaker part of his game. Teams are also running on him at will now with no fear of getting thrown out which isn’t good. But as much as Jorge has to learn the pitchers they need to adapt to him as well and execute pitches no matter what.
I don’t have a problem with a kid shaking off a veteran catcher – Phil did that in his debut and I thought it showed confidence. However, I wouldn’t want to see him do that on a consistent basis because it’s a reasonable assumption that the vet knows a lot more about the hitters than a rookie. If there is a problem and a pitcher/catcher are not on the same page, then they need to sit down together and find some way to get there.
“i’d be surprised after tonight if there isn’t a three way meeting, and i don’t think it’s joba who’s going to be doing the talking.”
I hope so. But quite honestly, this has gone on for a while and I’m not sure why.
It’s a bad sign because either girardi hasn’t made this point already or he’s made the point and joba is ignoring him.
Either way it’s not good.
Joba and Burnett need personal catchers a hell of a lot more than CC does.
CC is a stud, he should be able to throw to anyone. We can’t waste Cisco with him.
One last thing before I sign off – I hope Robertson stays, and Veras and/or Tomko are the ones to go if there’s a change. Bruney and Mitre? I’d love Melancon, but it seems he still needs to fix something, results haven’t been quite as good.
We’ll see tomorrow. Good night.
This was fun. Let’s win again.
From the last post…
“This isn’t the first or second start he and Joba aren’t in sync, no offense but it should be addressed, his horrible performances are linked usually when Georgy is catching, it’s not ignoreable.”
Joba’s two longest and best starts of the year (and his career) were caught by Jorge. So I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
Well Cashman flushed another 12 Mil down the toilet with Marte. Let’s see if we can get something out of Nady before he’s gone.
The BP moves should be Tomko & Veras DFA. Melancon & Albaladejo up.
Can’t get excited about this win
As someone on the other thread said… the “Crisp” brand of baseball we played during our win streak has completely vanished. Now we’re playing sloppy baseball. Its dating back to the Texas series at home.
“Shoot that ****er in the god damn mother ****ing face. ”
The joker, I found that post to be VERY entertaining
A three-time Gold Glove winner, Castillo called it a “routine fly ball.”
“I feel bad. I feel so bad,” he said following his fifth error of the season. “The ball was moving a little bit.”
I’m with randy, I hope there’s a little chat and Joba gets an earful. A young kid like him needs to have a litle faith in a guy who’s caught a perfect game and numerous WS games.
Girardi needs to clear the air there. I also would be sitting Swish for a game if Damon can play tomorrow. I do love Swish, but he needs to get back to the fundamentals and less about the flash. He has never been known as a great defensive player so I don’t so much fault him there. But the errors, the baserunning, he needs a game to sit and think. I can’t understand why Berroa is still here. Wasted bench spots. A Nady decision must eventually come soon. If Nady is really done in the field, the Yankees either need to try Duncan as a backup or look at landing one of the extra Colorado guys for the bench, Hawpe, SpillBoroughs or someone else. With Garcia hurt again, Humberto Sanchez done, Kennedy out for the year, it’s not looking promising as far as the Yankees ability to make trades this year.
Can someone please tell me how Joba going 4 innings every start, laboring with no command and killing our bullpen every start is more valuable than having him lock down the 8th inning?
The bullpen lost yesterday’s game and almost lost today’s.
Joba locking down the 7th and 8th > Joba pitching 4 innings
I’ve gotta laugh at the idiots still whining about Rodriguez’s slow start, but, had no issue with writting off Teixeira’s slow start as just that. Check the numbers….Rodriguez’ numbers as of tonight blow Teixeira’s first 120 at bats out of the water.
Even as a Red Sox fan, I have a lot of respect and admiration for Jorge Posada. I watched the game at a bar and I understand pitchers are going to shake off their catcher, but shaking off your catcher that much and crossing him up on that one pitch is disrespectful. Jorge Knows what he’s doing and has caught some of the best games of his career yet people attack his style of play? If people want to believe that some 22-23 year old punk can call a game better than a guy whos been around for years and years is disappointing. Going back to the Red Sox blog. Ciao
The Joker, I love the Mets thread on PSD, they have so much humor there.
After getting put on waivers after that disaster at Yankee Stadium…. Vicente Padilla has won his next 2 starts, against the Red Sox and Dodgers.
Jeter clearly felt for Castillo saying several times anyone that has played the game has dropped a fly ball.
Posada does a horrible job calling the games. Look at Sabathia ERA when Cervelli is catching him and when Posada is catching it is almost a two run different. Also look at Burnett’s ERA when Molina/Cash are catching him compared to Posada.
You know the scary thing Veras is the most fresh arm in our bullpen right now so if someone goes down tomorrow I would be shocked if it was Veras as he has some bullets in his arm. EVen though those bullets may be blank he has not pitched a lot recently whereas some of the others have.
As a former ballplayer, we all gor our cues from the guy behind the plate….There’s a reason why more than 1/2 the mgrs. in baseball are former backstops……Joba needs to go back to working off his fastball…..He just overthinks on the mound….Half the teams he hasn’t faced their full lineups yet…..Posada is about 2-3 good years away from being considered a Hall Of Fame candidate……Granted he’s been gun shy at the plate since Texeria drilled 4 years ago, but he knows the game…….Joba is learning on the job….As great as Doc Gooden was, he never said no to Gary Carter…
Joba’s a tad too cocky for my taste. When he’s had a couple of 20-win seasons, maybe then he can keep shaking off his All-Star catcher.
Post of the night.
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/.....tcount=722
If we end up winning the division or wildcard by one game, someone should mail Luis Castillo a gift.
Maybe Alby will be called up tomorrow?
Forgot to add that Joba becomes VERY predictable with his slider when it’s 3-2. Posada knows that. He’s trying to mix it up more for Joba so that the batters are thrown off more.
“Maybe Alby will be called up tomorrow?”
Please god no. I’d rather see Melancon as much as he is struggling.
Randy l.,
You have far more experience than me. I have none. But let’s assume you’re right — as you probably are. In that case, isn’t it Girardi’s place to tell Joba that? — in which case it gets right back to more stupidity on the part of this team that we both want to see win.
I wouldnt rush Melancon. But, looking at their roster I cant find anyone Id want them to call up.
ok I can;t believe what i saw tonight…first the drop pop up and within two/seconds we are jumping around in the garage and my friend trips and knocks he 2 front teeth out…what are the odds of that?
Thank you, Bronx Bum,
Facts are what it’s about. Thank you for pointing out how two Yankee pitchers have much higher ERAs with Posada behind the plate. That’s what my eyes were telling me, but your producing the data is what it’s about. Great job. And thank you.
“Posada does a horrible job calling the games. Look at Sabathia ERA when Cervelli is catching him and when Posada is catching it is almost a two run different. Also look at Burnett’s ERA when Molina/Cash are catching him compared to Posada”
Stunod
Again, what’s most important is that Posada’s deficiencies seem to be apparent to all of the Yankee pitchers not named Pettitte. And again, they may be apparent to him, but be getting overruled by loyalty to a longtime friend.
“Thank you for pointing out how two Yankee pitchers have much higher ERAs with Posada behind the plate. That’s what my eyes were telling me, but your producing the data is what it’s about. Great job. And thank you.”
This doesn’t prove anything. It’s a very poor way to use statistics in baseball.
Unadjusted bivariate statistics are not adequate in any way to draw strong conclusions from.
“Did the Yankees misdiagnose Marte?”
Yes, when we pavanoed him with a 3-year bonanza when every other free agent had his hat in his hand. If he was on a one-year make good deal he’d be pitching now.
I agree with those who want to bury Posada. It’s one thing to handle journeyman like Clemens, Cone, Wells, Pettitte, El Duque, and Rivera. But real thoroughbreds like Burnett and Joba require someone special behind the plate.
Brandon, my favorite part is the post of the SNY site saying the Mets “took round one”. I lol’d.
Will George Kontos ever get a shot in the pen this year you think? Seen only a little of him so don’t know if he could be effective out there but willing to try anything. Funny watching Tomko today, he was talking at one point of wanting to be the 8th inning guy. He’s delusional.
“Maybe Alby will be called up tomorrow?”
He pitched 3 innings on Thursday…i would doubt it
Unadjusted bivariate statistics may not be proof, but when they confirm what is obvious to my eyes and, once again, the eyes of every Yankee starter not named Pettitte, to ignore them in my opinion is beyond folly and a path to almost guarantee that the Yankees will continue to be beaten by Boston again and again like a cheap mule. That’s not what I want to see and I assume it’s not what you want either.
Between Jay and Bronx bum I’m sure who is more ignorant. Burnetts been having problems even before Posada came back from the DL. Jorge caught some great games from Joba and Pettitte before.
TJ, I know
“It’s a bad sign because either girardi hasn’t made this point already or he’s made the point and joba is ignoring him.”
cb-
i agree, but tonight was so bad i think it’ll bring things to a head.
on a separate note since when does a young pitcher make up his own game plan?
as you say about the predictable sliders, eiland surely doesn’t say to do that.
maybe it’s a question of who is running the asylum.
there is a problem sometimes when a player like joba knows that his coach has never approached his level. you can be sure every young player looks up the mlb record of their coaches.
when a coach wasn’t a star they have to establish the authority in other ways. you’re right that joba may simply not be doing what he’s been told to do. that’s why i said before to sit his ass on the bench if necessary.
that’s extreme, but that was the kind of battle the twins had going with garza. i was in the triple a manager’s office once when i saw garza show some attitude when he was taken out of a game early . the tough stance from the manager made garza a better pitcher. to his credit he finally gave in to his manager as the season went on and made a lot of progress.
joba is a great kid, but he’s not in charge. i think they’ll take care of this in house and we won’t hear much about what is talked about. and that’s the right way to do it.
i don’t think we’ll see him shaking posada off much next game.
“It’s so hard to slow the game down when you’re out there…”
That’s what Joba said in his post game interview.
And what was he referring to?
Joba himself said that he lost his aggressiveness out on the mound and that that was a mistake. He himself said that he did a bad job of maintaing his aggressiveness.
So maybe Posada was trying to correct this mistake he was watching.
But Joba himself not only couldn’t fix it and compounded the problem by refusing to let posada help him through it.
What is posada supposed to do? Watch Joba lose his aggressiveness and just say hey that’s ok go ahead and keep making that mistake because you’re a 23 year old pitcher?
Steve Summers ran to his booth after the ball left Al’s bat, he went to gloat to his production staff in the WFAN studio and 1/2 the room was jumping the other wasn’t and he looked at the screen the Yankees were jumping up & down and all he could think was…WTH happened
It’s really not that hard to figure out the Jorge doesn’t mesh well with every pitcher. It’s simply a fact. It goes back to the whole Torre and personal catchers for certain pitchers. Burnett and Joba are firey guys, when they aren’t on the same page Jorge doesn’t seem to have the ability to get them focused or back on the same page, they collapse. Maybe that’s Girardi’s job to work that out. But you see in the dugout Molina talking to him, not Jorge. That needs to get ironed out. And from that standpoint, it’s the coaches responsiblilty to get it right. Not that Girardi’s to blame for it, I think all parties involved are at fault, but someone needs to step in.
You want facts, Jones?
How about these facts?
The team’s ERA with each of our catchers behind the plate this year:
Kevin Cash 3.49
Jose Molina 3.66
F. Cervelli 4.44
Jorge Posada 6.40
Do you think the Yankee pitchers who don’t want Posada behind the plate may realize something you don’t?
Andrew
June 13th, 2009 at 12:13 am
Can someone please tell me how Joba going 4 innings every start, laboring with no command and killing our bullpen every start is more valuable than having him lock down the 8th inning?
The bullpen lost yesterday’s game and almost lost today’s.
Joba locking down the 7th and 8th > Joba pitching 4 innings
——————————————————
I’ll give it a shot. He went 6 innings last start and 8 innings the start before that. He’s a young pitcher that’s still learning how to pitch and will have ugly starts like today.
It’s not as if Wang and Burnett are making him expendable to the rotation.
Joba can be an ace if he’s given time to develop. If he’s not given a chance, we’ll never find out if we have another CC or another Mike Stanton.
If you can’t understand that, then you are impatient or stubborn or both.
CB,
To be fair, have we seen CC work with Posada enough to draw any conclusions about them. CC seems to be working exclusively with Cervelli now.
But overall, I agree with your point.
“Unadjusted bivariate statistics may not be proof, but when they confirm what is obvious to my eyes and, once again, ”
You’ve completely missed the point of statistics. And you were the one who was touting these bivariate statistics as proof. Not me.
But conveniently now you’re saying forget my shoddy use of statistics – my eyes tell the story.
My eyes told me today that I was watching an obstinate 23 year old pitcher who has a world of talent keep making mistakes and refusing to be helped.
That’s what my eyes told me. And that was pretty obvious to me.
And the statistics you tried to tout as objective evidence don’t pan out at all.
And I know the teams ERA with Posada behind the plate were better in earlier years. But after all, he’s now ancient for a catcher.
rmel, who then? Melancon?
Even if you think he’s been a decent catcher, can’t you agree that he’s now ancient for a catcher and that the Yankee pitchers who don’t want him behind the plate when they pitch despite his great bat don’t want him there for a reason? Who has more to gain or lose from making the right decision there than they do? Answer: Nobody.
Randy
Whats your take on the job Eiland has done this year?
Melancon is the only option I see. And please DFA Veras !
Jay those facts don’t say crap. And name to me what pitcher doesn’t want Posada behind the plate? & don’t say CC. Show me the exact quote of who said they don’t want Posada catching them. Maybe then I’ll come to terms with you.
CB,
We can agree that Joba was wrong to shake off Posada again and again, that Girardi should have told him so, and that father time has caught up with Posada even if we don’t agree about whether or not he was every very good behind the plate, can’t we?
Call up Casey Fossum
We could use another lefty in the pen and he could be a nice option in the 7th
“In that case, isn’t it Girardi’s place to tell Joba that? — in which case it gets right back to more stupidity on the part of this team that we both want to see win.”
jay-
i honestly don’t know why girardi let it go that far tonight.
i think it would be a great question for pete to ask girardi.
we won’t get much of an answer though because it’s the behind closed doors kind of discussion where authority is laid down by the manager.
for better or worse, i think eiland’s year is tied to wang’s.
Jones,
Do you honestly expect the Yankee pitchers to say that publicly?
That’s even less likely than Girardi or the team speaking honestly about getting their asses kicked in Boston and losing the first eight games to their hated archrival.
“But you see in the dugout Molina talking to him, not Jorge.”
Posada was batting.
pat he wasn’t batting. He was on the other end.
“CC seems to be working exclusively with Cervelli now.”
Statistically speaking CC is by far the best pitcher the yankees have.
So whenever CC starts the game you know the probability of the opposition is at its minimum each time through the rotation.
Given that a catcher cannot catch every game – especially a 37 year old catcher how is comming off a pulled hammy – you know the back up has to play.
But the problem is that the backup catcher is a poor offensive player. He has an OBP less than .300. In other words he is an out making machine who also hits for no power.
Given that it is completely logical to try to play that poor offensive player during games in which you know that your starting pitcher will give up the fewest runs.
In that way you maximize your chances of winning games consistently over the course of a season.
That’s why I think cervelli tends to catch CC.
And I’ve heard nothing at all – no evidence at all – that CC does not like throwing to Posada. None.
Is anyone here dumber than Jay?
Joba needs to stop shaking Posada off and just throw his fastball. He falls in love with his slider and wants to throw it all the time. Most of the time it isn’t even a strike and most good hitters aren’t going to swing in the dirt at it. Schneider is an awful hitter batting 200 and Joba kept on shaking off the fastball and threw him 3 sliders and then he walked him. That is ridiculous. He needs to learn to pitch better and off his fastball. I would think Posada knows more then he does…
It’s ridiculous the heat that Jorge takes. Can’t anyone blame the pitchers? Why do they escape responsibility? Jorge has 4 rings – he’s caught some great and not-so-great pitchers. This idea that pitchers hate pitching to him is an urban legend that perpetuates itself based on nothing but wishful thinking from fans and the media. They also assume Joe and Jorge don’t get along and that’s the furthest thing from the truth.
Randy l.
I completely agree with you randy l. that we’re not going to get an honest answer in public. But I think we can also both agree that Girardi not stepping in before it got as out of hand as it did was a huge blunder on his part, can’t we?
“Do you honestly expect the Yankee pitchers to say that publicly?”
Because you would know that right?
“rmel, who then? Melancon?”
Melancon threw 3 pitches tonight and is rested…So maybe him…i don’t know that they would bring him up just to send him down after Sundays game…Mike Dunn is at Trenton and is on the 40 man roster….Melancon is in GA with the AAA team…He could fly in and maybe make it for game time… i would Cut Tomko and bring up Melancon for Tomorrow and for tuesday cut Veras for Bruney…But that just me
“Joba can be an ace if he’s given time to develop. If he’s not given a chance, we’ll never find out if we have another CC or another Mike Stanton. ”
IDK why people expect him to all the sudden be an ace this yr. He’s 23 and on the same path Johan and Doc were. He’s prbly 2-3 yrs. away from being the staff ace, and the Yankees know this, that’s why they decided to stick w/ his struggles this yr. as a #5 SP and wait for it to develope.
Lincecum is struggling last time I checked, Hansons will go through his struggles, Grienke took 5-7 yrs. to develope. The organization has chosen his path already and it’s as the future ace.
Very profound insight, Someone Else. Very persuasive use of logic.
I’ll take your use of insults as evidence that you have no grasp of the facts and no ability to use logic to engage in constructive discussion. Very impressive.
I see the media is still complaining about the “jet stream” to right field, and to make the point, they’re seriously using Jeter’s home runs as the yardstick. Better check his career…at Yankee Stadium, over half of his homers are to right and right center, same as most parks he plays in. He hits left center to right field. Doesn’t say much for investigative reporting, does it? Here’s a clue….check the ball and check the pitchers….they’re bad.
From my take, it look like Joba was being a bit stubborn and refusing to listen to advice or help that came his way.
“We can agree that Joba was wrong to shake off Posada again and again, that Girardi should have told him so, and that father time has caught up with Posada even if we don’t agree about whether or not he was every very good behind the plate, can’t we?”
Father time is definitely catching up to posada. But what does that have to do with his game calling abilities?
Catcher get better with age calling games because it’s a function of experience.
The issue isn’t passed balls or physical issues.
We’ve been discussing game calling.
And that has little to do with age.
No other yankee pitcher during posada’s career that i can remember shook him off like joba did tonight.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a 23 year old pitcher shake off a catcher like that.
I don’t see how father time is an issue – other than father time needing to smack some sense into Joba.
If i were catching Joba I wouldn’t call a 3-2 slider either. I just wouldn’t. Not when he has a 60-70 curve and a 50-60 change up.
Every hitter knows what’s coming when Joba gets two strikes on him.
Young pitchers have to stop doing things like that. Not do them more.
Frank
June 13th, 2009 at 12:37 am
Call up Casey Fossum
We could use another lefty in the pen and he could be a nice option in the 7th
————————————————————
As best I remember about Casey Possum, he was only a nice option for oppossing hitters.
“Very profound insight, Someone Else. Very persuasive use of logic.
I’ll take your use of insults as evidence that you have no grasp of the facts and no ability to use logic to engage in constructive discussion. Very impressive.”
Okay you got “insight”. I’m sure you know it all buddy.
Let’s not start with the four rings stuff, PLEASE!
For goodness sake, if the fact that somebody had four rings made them great, we’d have won at least one postseason series in the last however many years. It’s not about how many rings you’ve won. It’s about making intelligent decisions. Just ask our archrivals about how they won two World Series in the last five years while we haven’t won a single postseason SERIES!
Jay –
You make excellent points, well thought out, well stated, and there is little I would disagree with, but there are a number of posters on this site who simply cannot countenance criticism of the Yankees. It’s some kind of psychological thing. Most of them are probably 20 – somethings who have little or no appreciation of Yankee history. They actually think mediocrity in this franchise is ok.
I don’t, and you don’t, let the children believe in their fairy tales, most of them are harmless.
Don’t get me wrong a win is a win is a win but this team is still pathetic in many areas.
Mo still an issue getting hit hard again.
Our bullpen is till horrid
Starting pitching consist of CC and ummm CC everyone else is lets close our eyes and hope they pitch well.
___________
Big big concerns you don’t beat good teams with come from behind wins and walk of hits you don’t beat good teams with solo HRs, you don’t beat good teams playing like the yankees have played all year.
You beat good teams by having lets see Beckett go 7 innings of 1 run ball then handing the ball to delcarmen, Ramirez, Oko jima, Saito, Bard (pick one), then papel.
You beat good teams by moving runners over making good defensive plays, driving in a runner from 3rd with less then 2 outs. You beat a good team with base running, singles, doubles, sacrifice fly.
I’m sorry to say but our yankees are not looking good right now. If our bullpen, our inconsistent hitting with runners on don’t change say hello to another first round exit.
Jones,
I’ve never once said my opinion is worth any more than anyone else’s. I’ve just responded to insults by pointing out that they’re beneath the posters making them and that this forum should be about the respectful exchange of opinions. I believe we can disagree without being disagreeable to each other.
“can’t you agree that he’s now ancient for a catcher and that the Yankee pitchers who don’t want him behind the plate when they pitch despite his great bat don’t want him there for a reason?”
So his age is affecting his ability to call a game? Maybe he has Alzheimers. I think I saw him give Joba the sign for a knuckleball just before he hit Church.
Someone Else
June 13th, 2009 at 12:40 am
Is anyone here dumber than Jay?
…………………
I’d gladly nominate you.
“Is anyone here dumber than Jay?”
Its a tie between him and pepitone
The four rings argument is old and a cop out.
How many rings does A-Rod have? Tex?
No, they must suck, they have no rings.
Thank you, Pepitone. I think you’re right.
And I agree with you completely, Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules). I’m not satisfied by ugly wins like last night’s because we won’t get very far in the postseason that way. And I don’t want other fans satisfied with it either — because if they are, I belive that the mediocrity and the continued losing to Boston will continue.
CB-
No other yankee pitcher during posada’s career that i can remember shook him off like joba did tonight.
……………………
I’d nominate Kevin Brown.
“Whats your take on the job Eiland has done this year?”
tarheelyank-
i didn’t like him at all last year or the beginning of this year, but i was starting to warm up to him as i heard him talk more as this season progressed.
now i’m not sure what i think. the staff as a whole doesn’t seem strong . their command and fastballs seem off. it’s kind of odd.
eiland really hasn’t ever coached veterans before last year. it was always kids in the minors. i don’t see him teaching the pitchers to command the strike zone with fastballs.
there’s a lot of monkeying around with secondary pitches.
he seems hard working. he’s trying. i honestly don’t know what to think. i don’t think it would hurt anything if he was replaced by someone else.
i guess i think he’s a generic pitching coach. not great but not bad either.
Jorge and Joba under Munsun banner!
Posada is like Pudge… he only calls fastballs.
Atleast Pudge does it to show off his arm, Posada does it because he doesn’t know any better. It’s like how Girardi rests lefties against lefties.
Jones
June 13th, 2009 at 12:50 am
“Is anyone here dumber than Jay?”
Its a tie between him and pepitone
…………………………
Don’t be so modest, take what’s rightfully yours.
CB, Your explanation on the use of Cervelli hits the mark…..
Jones,
If all you can contribute to this board is insulting me and other posters, it only reflects poorly on you, your education, and your upbringing.
Give it a rest. Nobody’s “satisfied” with an ugly win, but it beats the Hell out of an ugly loss.
The only thing people should be happy about tonight is that we didn’t lose ground to Boston or Tampa, both who are red hot by the way.
This was one of the worst games we have played ever. And it isin’t even one game, it dates back to the home Texas series. Boston exploited us with our sloppy play. We can get away with it against 2nd tier teams.
Bottom line, we continue to play like this, we aint going nowhere. I like to think us fans can have hgiher goals than edging Tampa out for the wild card and getting bounced in the 1st roumd
Carl
The conversation with Molina and Joba was in the bottom of the 4th when he came out of the game and Posada led of that inning.
jay -
for what it’s worth, i think your questions are legitimate and obviously you ,as we all are, are frustrated by the erratic play of the team.
Are there any standards on this board about posters treating each other with minimal respect or does it just sink to the level of lowest common denominator — like Jones and Someone Else?
Thank you, randy l. And I think your posts are thoughtful, too.
Can this team score in any other way aside from cheep HRs to right field? We are almost becoming like Boston with their RH hitters who can only hit at home because of the monster.
You think Beckett or Lester are going to give up HRs in October? They better had find a way to score in other ways
Thanks Randy
Ultimately it’s Joe’s responsibility to talk to Joba.
But this has been building up for quite a while. Why hasn’t Eiland stepped in. If fans like us can see it, why hasn’t he had a talk with him.
I just don’t think Eiland is a strong enough coach that Joe needs.
If the boss was around he would be gone.
As for Posada I have no problems with Posada’s game calling, but the little shake thing that he does with the glove ( to emphasize location) right before the pitch annoys the hell out of me. Just frame it.
I saw Fossom pitch in Syracuse.He looked pretty decent…
GreenBeret7
June 13th, 2009 at 12:53 am
Give it a rest. Nobody’s “satisfied” with an ugly win, but it beats the Hell out of an ugly loss.
……………………..
Ha Ha Ha, best comment of the night. I love it, GB7, and it is absolutely true. The Yanks have lots of issues, but it is a long season, and the Red Sox (see Halladay going down tonight) could see some crippling injuries, so we’ve got lots of time to get this straightened out.
That’s the beauty of baseball, there’s lots of games left to play.
Mark, I agree……
And I am frustrated about the erratic play of this team and what I thought I saw leading up to it for more than a few years now. I’m just delighted that more people see it now — because the resolution of any problem begins with its recognition.
is anyone else sickened by espn’s praise of clay buchholz as the next big thing? last i checked he was demoted with an era over 6 last season.
“I’d nominate Kevin Brown.”
Pepitone,
Kevin Brown was largely a one pitch pitcher. His arsenal was built on that power sinker. And I don’t remember him shaking off posada that often nor do I remember him shaking off the back up catcher either.
And on a related note – do you really want to use Brown as a model for how Joba should relate to his catcher and his other teamates?
Really? One of the biggest SOBs in the game and one of the worst teammates one could manner.
That’s your guy?
And what inference could you draw from Brown anyway regarding Posada’s catching skills. He was awful for the yankees and burned out shell of himself. And miserable.
But I don’t remember him shaking posada off that much.
um
I may be missing something, but what is Jay saying wrong exactly?
We have played bad baseball for weeks now. Errors, lack of clutch hits, bad bullpen, one reliable starter, boneheaded moves from the manager etc.
If it continues, we are going to slide in the standings. And if we do get to the playoffs, it will be a short stay. The team needs to clean up its act and start playing fundamental baseball.
If ever there was such a thing as a natural born Yankee,Tex would get my vote,he is a 5 tool!
Amen, MD Dan,
We’re not going to win in the postseason by scoring all of our runs with home runs. And we’re not going to win with shoddy defense and lousy decisions by our coach either.
randy l.
June 13th, 2009 at 12:51 am
“Whats your take on the job Eiland has done this year?”
tarheelyank-
i didn’t like him at all last year or the beginning of this year, but i was starting to warm up to him as i heard him talk more as this season progressed.
now i’m not sure what i think. the staff as a whole doesn’t seem strong . their command and fastballs seem off. it’s kind of odd.
eiland really hasn’t ever coached veterans before last year. it was always kids in the minors. i don’t see him teaching the pitchers to command the strike zone with fastballs.
there’s a lot of monkeying around with secondary pitches.
he seems hard working. he’s trying. i honestly don’t know what to think. i don’t think it would hurt anything if he was replaced by someone else.
i guess i think he’s a generic pitching coach. not great but not bad either.
————————————————————
Not sure where or when the idea of pitching off of the plate to get hitters to chase, especially on the first or second pitches, but, that’s something that needs to stop.
Slowly but surely, Hughes is getting away from that idea and is challenging hitters. Coke is now doing it and
Chamberlain has decided that he’s now a crafty vet. He’s got too good of stuff to pitch like the 2002 version of David Cone. Burnett just can’t locate much of anything right now.
In my opinion, obviously….
Can this team score in any other way aside from cheep HRs to right field? We are almost becoming like Boston with their RH hitters who can only hit at home because of the monster.
————–
Oh save it, jackass. They stole one. Be happy about it.
For the record, none of those homeruns hit tonight were cheapies. All of them would have gone out of the Old Stadium as well.
Ouch Jay you’ve really brought those tears to my eyes. I’m fine with some of your views and opinions, I just strongly disagree on your lame “facts” about Posada.
Thank you, Camo. That’s EXACTLY what I’m saying (among other things).
Pepitone, You’re a well respected baseball guy here, and you’ve certainly have been around the block more than once…..What’s your take on this ??? Joba shaling off every other pitch and then the whole Posada signal calling concerns…..I mean Molina has been a backup all his career, and I have great respect for him, and then we have the rook Cervelli who looks nice behind the dish, however he’s pretty wet behind the ears……You watched Yogi, Howard, Munson, did they get shaken off like this ????
CB,
My point wasn’t that CC doesn’t like Posada. Perhaps you misunderstood. My point was that it’s hard to draw conclusions about how CC and Posada work together when Posada doesn’t catch him. You said CC doesn’t shake him off, but we don’t really know cause they have only worked together a few times.
And agreed on why Cervelli plays with CC. Plus they have a good rapport.
I’m a big fan of having the back-up catcher work with struggling pitchers. I think they have more time to focus on the one pitcher as the starter has to worry about the whole staff.
What are your thoughts about trying Cervelli with Wang and hoping he can snap him out of this?
” Nobody’s “satisfied” with an ugly win, but it beats the Hell out of an ugly loss.”
gb7-
i was once playing golf ( i know how you love those golf stories) with a retired airline pilot when he hit the ugliest worm killer drive you’ve ever seen , but it hit a rock and rolled and rolled and rolled right down the middle of the fairway about 280 yards out.
in his calm southern airline pilot voice he said” she ain’t pretty but she’s got big —–”
Who cars if the pitching and bullpen are awful?
Burnett bakes great pies and Swisher plays loud music. That will push us above the Sox, just watch.
Give it a rest. Nobody’s “satisfied” with an ugly win, but it beats the Hell out of an ugly loss.
__________
Well it maybe a win but I’m not happy about it, yes we all know its a win but some wins feel as bad as a lost. The Yankees are not playing good baseball right now, not even close. Walk of wins are great, come from behind wins are great but give me a 4-2 win every time where the starting pitching and bullpen do well. Ill take two sacrifice flies over a 2 run home run anyday. It may feel good now but wait until post-season comes and were trailing 3-1 in the bottom of the 7th and we have left 9 men on base because this offense thinks the only thing you can hit in the first 7innings are solo HRs. ANd we don’t comeback because were not facing mediocre pitching. Or CC goes 7 strong and were leading 3-1 and we lose 4-3. Ill take the Jays 3-2 wins over our 9-8 walk off wins. If things don’t change number 27 wont come this year.
Jones,
It’s fine if you disagree. But if you say why instead of hurling insults, you would contribute to the board and reflect much better on yourself and your parents.
Jorge Posada 6.40
*************************************************
Did Posada catch all of Wang’s first starts though? I need to look, I guess.
Cause that would skew his stats substantially.
Jay June 13th, 2009 at 1:00 am
Amen, MD Dan,
We’re not going to win in the postseason by scoring all of our runs with home runs. And we’re not going to win with shoddy defense and lousy decisions by our coach either.
————————-
It’s June 12th – not October 1st.
Quit you’re whining and be happy they stole one tonight.
This team was never going to play .800 ball for three months of the season. They had to come back down to Earth a little bit.
This won’t be the same team in September and October.
Tony P. is gonna be pissed, I can already tell.
Again, just my opinion of course, Jones. And I welcome yours. Again, let’s see if we can’t disagree without being disagreeable.
“You said CC doesn’t shake him off, but we don’t really know cause they have only worked together a few times.”
Ok. I’ll be more precise. In none of the games that Posada caught CC did we see him shake off posada the way joba did tonight.
randy l.
June 13th, 2009 at 1:02 am
” Nobody’s “satisfied” with an ugly win, but it beats the Hell out of an ugly loss.”
gb7-
i was once playing golf ( i know how you love those golf stories) with a retired airline pilot when he hit the ugliest worm killer drive you’ve ever seen , but it hit a rock and rolled and rolled and rolled right down the middle of the fairway about 280 yards out.
in his calm southern airline pilot voice he said” she ain’t pretty but she’s got big——-”
————————————————————
I didn’t know that you were an airline pilot.
I can’t top that golf story. I’ve already used the only one I was ever involved in.
Jay
June 13th, 2009 at 12:55 am
Are there any standards on this board about posters treating each other with minimal respect or does it just sink to the level of lowest common denominator — like Jones and Someone Else?
……………………..
Are you new to this board, Jay? I ask this because you seem surprised at the vitriol you see here. Pete lets it go, he has little supervision on this site.
Like I said, there are some frat boys on here who get their kicks out of finding new ways to insult other posters. Of course the extent of their vocabulary generally reaches no farther than “stupid,” “moron,” “retard,” “idiot,” and other noteworthy words that express the limits of their IQ’s.
But, like your average junior Higher, you have to ignore their squirreliness, or you’ll let them get under your skin.
Gb
Good points, but is it because of, or in spite of, Eiland that Hughes has turned it around?
“You want facts, Jones?
How about these facts?
The team’s ERA with each of our catchers behind the plate this year:
Kevin Cash 3.49
Jose Molina 3.66
F. Cervelli 4.44
Jorge Posada 6.40
Do you think the Yankee pitchers who don’t want Posada behind the plate may realize something you don’t?”
Now what’s Posada’s era when you don’t include Wangs 27 Runs in 7.2 innings?
How about those “facts”?
Again, just my opinion of course, Jones. And I welcome yours. Again, let’s see if we can’t disagree without being disagreeable — to each other, I mean. Of course, places like this are a great place for us frustrated fans to vent about incredibly talented players who do things we could never begin to do not doing them better.
Mark, I agree 100%
They have not played crisp baseball in weeks. Now granted, they don’t have the bullpen to win the close games now, but can they win a nice clean game where they get an early lead and protect it?
They tried to against the Sox and blew it.
E-gawa,
Did Posada catch all of Wang’s horrendous starts?
I’m just asking. I don’t know the answer.
Anyone have the video of the Mets announcers calling the dropped pop-up? Can’t find it.
Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules)
June 13th, 2009 at 1:02 am
Give it a rest. Nobody’s “satisfied” with an ugly win, but it beats the Hell out of an ugly loss.
Well it maybe a win but I’m not happy about it, yes we all know its a win but some wins feel as bad as a lost. The Yankees are not playing good baseball right now, not even close. Walk of wins are great, come from behind wins are great but give me a 4-2 win every time where the starting pitching and bullpen do well. Ill take two sacrifice flies over a 2 run home run anyday. It may feel good now but wait until post-season comes and were trailing 3-1 in the bottom of the 7th and we have left 9 men on base because this offense thinks the only thing you can hit in the first 7innings are solo HRs. ANd we don’t comeback because were not facing mediocre pitching. Or CC goes 7 strong and were leading 3-1 and we lose 4-3. Ill take the Jays 3-2 wins over our 9-8 walk off wins. If things don’t change number 27 wont come this year.
————————————————————
It makes up for one of the games the Yanks lost like that.
I’d love to know the Wang-adjusted ERAs for all of our catchers.
Mets radio guy >>> Sterling….
That was a wonderful baseball call.
BTW Tony Paige is so pissed right now
Quit you’re whining and be happy they stole one tonight.
This team was never going to play .800 ball for three months of the season. They had to come back down to Earth a little bit.
This won’t be the same team in September and October.
_________
No I won’t stop whining until this team plays some baseball that will give them a chance to win number 27 that is all I care about I don’t care about them getting some stupid little game that the Mets gave away. The Yankees, $200 million dollar payroll are better than that. I want good, fundamental baseball not crazy walk off wins while facing bad bullpens.
“Did Posada catch all of Wang’s first starts though? I need to look, I guess.
Cause that would skew his stats substantially.”
This is exactly why using “split” statistics/ bivariate statistics is so misleading.
Posada caught Wang’s first three starts – the three starts that were historically awful.
Posada caught Wang’s last horrible start.
There is almost always some other external cause that could be driving the observed differences.
You can’t draw causality from split statistics with any confidence. You just can’t. That’s why statisticians developed multivariate analysis to begin with. And even that isn’t perfect.
Think Posada catching those three games may impact that ERA by catcher split some?
Cervelli never caught one of Wang’s starts. What a surprise his ERA figure is lower.
new post
E-gawa,
Did Posada catch all of Wang’s horrendous starts?
I’m just asking. I don’t know the answer.
**********************************************************
He did catch all of them. I just checked. Wang’s Baltimore, TB and Cleveland starts.
Jay,
Posada caught 7.2 innings over 5 starts in which Wang gave up 27 runs.
How many games has Jorge caught this season, it can’t be that many….Hell the club was just on a great roll for about 4 weeks, amd the era’s dropped like a rock during that stretch….Well then you do have the bullpen issues, and Cervelli & co. are pinched hit by the time the relievers come in…
Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules)
June 13th, 2009 at 1:02 am
Give it a rest. Nobody’s “satisfied” with an ugly win, but it beats the Hell out of an ugly loss.
Well it maybe a win but I’m not happy about it, yes we all know its a win but some wins feel as bad as a lost. The Yankees are not playing good baseball right now, not even close. Walk of wins are great, come from behind wins are great but give me a 4-2 win every time where the starting pitching and bullpen do well. Ill take two sacrifice flies over a 2 run home run anyday. It may feel good now but wait until post-season comes and were trailing 3-1 in the bottom of the 7th and we have left 9 men on base because this offense thinks the only thing you can hit in the first 7innings are solo HRs. ANd we don’t comeback because were not facing mediocre pitching. Or CC goes 7 strong and were leading 3-1 and we lose 4-3. Ill take the Jays 3-2 wins over our 9-8 walk off wins. If things don’t change number 27 wont come this year.
——————————————————————————————
It makes up for one of the games the Yanks lost like that.
______–
I don’t care good clean baseball is what I want, but I have faith the bullpen will improve with the help of our kids, and I still have major faith in out SP. Lets just hope the offense realizes that a baseball game begins before the 7th inning.
“And I welcome yours. Again, let’s see if we can’t disagree without being disagreeable — to each other, I mean.”
Deal. Sometimes certain things set you off. I apologize for the insults. Normally I always try to be respectful of others views, but its hard on tough days. Are we good?
Tarheelyank
June 13th, 2009 at 1:06 am
Gb
Good points, but is it because of, or in spite of, Eiland that Hughes has turned it around?
————————————————————
I can’t answer a question like that….maybe both. Hughes just looks more mature and sure of himself this year. Chamberlain seems to have fallen in love with his press clippings and himself.
He needs to grow up….a lot. The worst thing that could have happened to him was to blow onto the scence and the groupies falling in love with him. In what appears to be his frame of mind/attitude, I’m not sure that he could handle the 7th or 8th innings if they moved him there.
The worst thing that could have happened to him was to blow onto the ***scene***
Giradi has to be one of the most puzzling managers I have ever seen. First off while the fans make a big deal about Yankee-Met games they really are less important than any game against an AL team in terms of the standings. That said, against an NL team it is suddenly ok tonight for Mo to throw 30+ pitches in a tie game, a situation he has been really bad in recent years, yet yesterday in a huge game against a rival that actually matters huge in the standings he can’t come on in the 8th and throw 30 pitches? If you bring Mo in for the 1+ innings it is not about outs, it is about the amount of pitches he throws.
Another example… The other night against the Sox with Gardner on first he bunts him over yet one inning later with a slower runner in Pena he sends Pena.
His decisions just constantly contradict and he always seems to push the wrong button at the wrong time.
“Cervelli never caught one of Wang’s starts. What a surprise his ERA figure is lower.”
He actually caught the June 4th game against Texas where Wang lasted 4.2 and gave up 5.
CB,
Your logic is impeccable, CB. What I’d love to see is an ERA for each catcher with each pitcher behind the plate and vice versa. It still wouldn’t be perfect — because some catchers would catch a pitcher more when he was pitching great and some would catch them when they were pitching horribly. But I think it would still be very interesting.
Are those stats available anywhere?
BR,
I agree with you about Girardi. And doing so is a confession that I was wrong about him — because I was one of the folks who thought he would be great. But again, I couldn’t agree with you more.
Really? One of the biggest SOBs in the game and one of the worst teammates one could manner.
That’s your guy?
…………………….
Hey, calm down, CB, you’re the one who asked if any of us remember Posada being shook off by any other pitcher in his term. And I said, Kevin Brown, because I remember seeing him shake off Posada like the arrogant punk that he is. So, don’t get your self in a tit.
I saw it in a game during the regular season in 2004, you asked, and I told you. I also saw El Duque shake him quite a bit too, of course that was when Posada was a rookie, but you asked, not me.
Hi, Pat M, thanks for the compliment, but you’ve probably forgotten more of this game than I know. I have just been around a long time, and have seen a lot of Yankee baseball – good and horrible.
But, to answer your question directly, no, I honestly do not remember a young pitcher shaking off Howard, Munson, or Cerrone (I never got to see Yogi) like that. As a matter of fact, if he did that to Munson, he’d kick his ass! Ole Thurm would never take that crap from a pitcher, not even Catfish.
Also a second puzzling thing, why does Gardner seem scared to run lately? When he hit that single off Livian in the middle of the game I can not believe he did not steal 2nd early in the count with Jeter up.
“What I’d love to see is an ERA for each catcher with each pitcher behind the plate and vice versa. ”
Still not adequate Jay. What about the ball parks they happened to play in.
That has a huge effect on ERA. What if one catcher caught more games at the new stadium? Or caught more games at Texas or whatever other stadium which has been associated with more runs being scored.
And then there dozens of other factors.
“Split statistics” always miss these other factors. It’s no an issue of doing them a different way – it’s an issue of the method.
Even if you adjusted for 10 different variables at the same time it still might not be adequate.
But splits are of really limited use in drawing a conclusion.
Wang – first 3 starts – not even taking into account his later starts, that Posada caught.
3.2 9 7 7 17.18
1.0 6 8 8 28.93
1.1 8 8 8 34.50
Makes perfect sense that Posada’s is higher.
“I saw it in a game during the regular season in 2004, you asked, and I told you. I also saw El Duque shake him quite a bit too, of course that was when Posada was a rookie, but you asked, not me. ”
Posada and El due though were more on the same page then than him and Joba are on now. I read Jorge even started with El Duque just to get him fired up. I didn’t ever get the feeling that he didn’t want Posada catching him back then. I actually thought they were good together
BR,
Again, I agree with you. I thought Gardner would vastly outperform all expectations — and I still think he will statistically. But my eyes tell me that he has very little in the way of judgement/baseball instincts — in contrast (I can’t tell you how much I hate to say this) Jacob Ellsbury. But statistically, I think they’ll prove to be quite similar. Still, because of his lack of judgement/baseball instincts, unless that can be learned/taught (and I don’t know whether it can or not) in my opinion, he’ll never be a very good player — no matter how good his statistics may be.
“Hey, calm down, CB, you’re the one who asked if any of us remember Posada being shook off by any other pitcher in his term. ”
Didn’t mean for my post to come off as abrasive. Just responding to your point. Apologies if it did.
I was really asking a question. I don’t remember Brown doing that but he very well may have and I could be misremebering.
I enjoy your posts and wasn’t trying to be argumentative.
Absolutely, CB. You’re absolutely right. But I’d love to see some analysis that adjusts for all of those things as possible — like pitcher, park, expected runs to be scored by the team he pitched/caught against all things considered versus actual runs scored, etc.
(Edited:)
Absolutely, CB. You’re absolutely right. But I’d love to see some analysis that adjusts for as many of those things as possible — like pitcher, park, expected runs to be scored by the team he pitched/caught against all things considered versus actual runs scored, etc.
Jay, I thought he was gonna be great too and I though Mattingly would have been a disaster. While I am not saying Donny would have been any better but this year especially I am just amazed at how bad Giradi’s in game managing has been. He has literally lost at least 3-4 games already with decisions that just make no sense and while I hated that Torre rarely ever bunted Giradi is just taking these sac bunts to new extremes. How many times has he put on a sac bunt with a guy on first before we have even hit the 6th inning in a game yet?
We’re good, Jones. (Sorry I didn’t see your post earlier.)
Thanks. I definitely know what you mean about it being hard to stay constructive on some days. Boy do I! But again, I appreciate your comments. And again, we’re good.
And I do appreciate your post very much.
PEL — thanks for posting all those audio files. I live overseas and only get snippets of the interviews. MUCHO thanks!
Going into tonights game Gardner’s OBP was over 350 which is what we all were hoping for going into this season. That said, he is just not stealing enough bases to justify his 270 average and no power. Does he know how fast he is? I think 9 times out of 10 he is gonna be safe at second unless he falls down on his way there. He does not need a good jump. With a good jump its just a guarentee he will be safe.
Exactly, BR. Exactly.
Which is why it drives me crazy when he so often waits so long to steal — or more often, I think, he doesn’t even try to steal at all — in critical situations.
“Again, I agree with you. I thought Gardner would vastly outperform all expectations — and I still think he will statistically. But my eyes tell me that he has very little in the way of judgement/baseball instincts — in contrast (I can’t tell you how much I hate to say this) Jacob Ellsbury. But statistically, I think they’ll prove to be quite similar. Still, because of his lack of judgement/baseball instincts, unless that can be learned/taught (and I don’t know whether it can or not) in my opinion, he’ll never be a very good player — no matter how good his statistics may be.”
Jay I have to agree with you. You make some very good points here.
Thanks, again, Jones.
Here’s to more Yankee wins to come — with solid play against good teams — and equally intelligent moves by the Yankee ownership/management.
Good night, all.
Tex’s hard running is not only a lesson for young boys and girls, it should be a lesson for big leaguers too. How many of them don’t run balls out?
Its time to put Damaso Marte on the 60 day disabled list so they can open up a spot on the 40 man roster for another pitcher or Austin Jackson.
The team’s ERA with each of our catchers behind the plate this year:
Kevin Cash 3.49
Jose Molina 3.66
F. Cervelli 4.44
Jorge Posada 6.40
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Thanks for posting these stats. All I can say is…Wow!!! I wonder what the statistics would be for passed balls and wild pitches.