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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


In defense of Jorge Posada

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jun 15, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

After reading my e-mails for the last few days and looking at some comments on the blog, I was surprised to learn that Jorge Posada apparently doesn’t know how to catch.

Unlike the very wise Jose Molina and the very energetic Francisco Cervelli, all Posada apparently does is swipe at pitches and argue with the pitcher.

Enough of this nonsense. The Yankees won three World Series championships with Jorge Posada as their regular catcher and made the playoffs every year with him catching. Then what happened last season? Posada barely played and the Yankees went home in October.

Was that why? I can’t prove that. No more so than anybody can prove that Posada is the reason A.J. Burnett can’t throw strikes.

The catcher calls the pitch. Or as Posada likes to say, “I suggest a pitch.” It’s up to the pitcher to execute that pitch or throw the pitch he wants. The catcher at that point is there to make sure it doesn’t roll to the backstop.

The idea that a catcher can regularly steal strikes by framing a pitch is largely a myth according to Molina. “Maybe once or twice a game,” he said. “Depends on the umpire.”

According to Molina, the umpires are judging where the ball crosses the plate, not where the catcher’s glove is.

Posada is a strong-willed guy and his relationship with the pitchers is not always a tea party. He got into a fight with El Duque Hernandez one day and certain guys (Mike Mussina, for instance) didn’t want to throw to him.

But Roger Clemens always wanted to. He and Andy Pettitte have had a lot of success together. And Mariano Rivera will tell anybody who asks what he thinks of Posada and his ability to focus a pitcher.

Joba Chamberlain laughed the other day when we asked him about his bickering with Posada during his last start. “I probably should stop thinking so much,” he said. “That’s when I get in trouble.”

I will say this: When Molina comes off the DL, the Yankees should seriously consider keeping Cervelli around as a third catcher. That would enable Posada to DH more often. Cervelli is also fast enough to be used a pinch runner on occasion. I can’t imagine how Cervelli would not be more useful than Angel Berroa.

But Posada is the catcher. When he is catching, his offense gives them a huge advantage at that position. When he is the DH, that advantage is lessened. Their best lineup is when Posada is catching.

There have been some rocky moments this season. But let’s not forget that the Yankees won a lot of of games over a lot of years with Posada catching. He didn’t forget how.

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548 Responses to “In defense of Jorge Posada”

  1. chrisA June 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Amen Brother!

  2. Stultus Magnus June 15th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    Well said, Pete.

  3. S.A.--Let's get ready to rumble! June 15th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    serenity now

    Good stuff Pete

  4. Thomas Stenholm, DEnm June 15th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Nuff said Pete!

  5. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    Thank you, Pete. Maybe this will quiet some of this, uh, how to put this delicately… ridiculousness…

  6. ditmars1929 June 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Good post, Pete, and while some will disagree, I personally found this post unnecessary. Who can possibly say that Posada isn’t a great catcher and back that up? He’ll probably be a border line HOFer by the time he’s done, or at the very least be in line for having his number retired.

  7. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Georgy is ok calling games, Molina and Cisco are better.

  8. Betsy June 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Thanks, Pete. I feel for Jorge…..so what if he’s fiery? I thought that’s what fans loved about him and missed when he was out last season? No way is Jorge responsible for a pitcher’s performance, be it AJ or anyone else. They have the ball in their hands, it’s up to them to execute. If they don’t like what Jorge is calling, then don’t throw it…It might behoove the new guys to just have a chat with Jorge about their philosophy of pitching and what they like to do in certain situations- they simply just need to get on the same page. Point is – enough with blaming Posada – it’s pathetic.

  9. Betsy June 15th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    GF, from a prior thread, I know you weren’t criticizing me – you’re right that I tend to read too much into things. I did listen to AJ’s post-game and it did make something of a difference. I thought he was clearly trying to compliment Cervelli as opposed to denigrating Jorge…just thought he may have gone a tad overboard with the gushing given that Jorge has all of a sudden come under fire (and unfairly, I think).

    I’ve been hard on AJ recently, but I will say that I’ve really never heard him make any excuses for his poor performances. He’s usually quite disgusted with himself and his feelings are written all over his face.

  10. Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    “Georgy is ok calling games, Molina and Cisco are better.”

    I’ll take the guy who can hit.

  11. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    Not to nitpick Pete, but Posada shared about 1/3 of the time with Girardi behind the plate for the ’98 and 99 championships, only in 2000 (once Girardi left) could Posada be considered the “regular” every day catcher. Posada was a big part of the ’98 and ’99 club but as far as I’m concerned he’s only fully responsible for the 2000 pitching staff – a staff dominated by a roided up Roger Clemens.

  12. Mat June 15th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    Pete, i know you can’t say it but i will… alot of your readers are idiots. Ive never posted anything on your blog but i am a daily reader and am amazed by some of the comments people leave.

    Posada may not be the best defensive catcher but he puts up runs with his bat. That is how Jorge helps his pitcher and thats fine by me

  13. Mat June 15th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    if the readers want to go after anyone they should be going after Eisland, not jorge.

  14. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    “I’ll take the guy who can hit.”

    I also like guys that can keep a game a reasonable score, but I’d like both.

  15. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    If the NYY’s were smart, they’d make arrangements with a winter league team to get Cervelli instruction and playing time at third, 1st and corner outfield spots. Make him an extremely useful player. He’s got the hands, speed and reflexes to do it. If he’s to have a future with NYY, that’s where his value will be.

    They have a lot of catching coming through the system and being the backup catcher and super utility would be a way to maximize his talents. He doesn’t need to be a GG at all positions, but, as long as he’s decent, he has value.

    That’s where NYY and Shelley Duncan screwed up, not learning to catch. He had a home grown catching instructor growing up. His dad, Dave was a pretty good defensive catcher in his day.

  16. hokiehill June 15th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    I agree that this post SHOULD be unnecessary but based on the comments so far today it certainly was necessary and I’m glad it Pete wrote it.

    I think the reason people are getting up in arms about Posada lately is because Cervelli has been playing very well and much like it has been with Gardner/Melky and earlier in the season with Nady/Swisher, for some reason a lot of folks on this blog make those situations seem like it’s one or the other when in actuality all of those players are important to the success of the team and can be successful together.

    So far I have liked what I’ve seen from Cervelli and enjoy seeing him in the game. he looks like a promising option for the future, but as pete said, the lineup is just better with Posada in as the catcher and I’m not going to question his defensive skills all of a sudden because I like Cervelli. And you’d be crazy not to agree that keeping Cervelli around is a much better option than having Berroa sit around being the team mascot.

  17. CB June 15th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    People keep citing ERAs associated with different catchers to suggest that Posada is a bad catcher.

    That’s an inadequate way of looking at the issue because it doesn’t control for the opponents offense, ball park played in, day game after a night game, wind conditions, etc, etc. There are numerous factors that have to be taken into consideration before you can isolate that it’s the factor who is the issue.

    And this issue of the catcher’s influence on a pitcher’s performance has been extensively studied years ago. What’s been found is that who the catcher is who catches a pitcher makes no difference at all in pitching performance.

    See reference below if you’re interested:

    http://www.baseballprospectus......icleid=432

  18. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    Posada needs to become more of a team mentor than a selfish individual at this point in his career. Is the team better with his bat in the lineup? Absolutely. Can his 4 at bats make as much of a difference if Cervelli or Molina have a better rapport with that day’s pitcher? No. Does Jorge need to take a page from Torre/Girardi’s book and realize that certain pitchers feel more comfortable with certain catchers and if that’s what is best for the team then so be it? Yes. Posada began his career as Andy Pettitte’s personal caddy so he more than anyone should understand that a 1st string catcher sometimes needs to hide away his ego in order to win a championship.

  19. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    “And you’d be crazy not to agree that keeping Cervelli around is a much better option than having Berroa sit around being the team mascot.”

    But then… who would they have to show the minor leaguers that they still can make it one day.

  20. Someone Else June 15th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    “That’s where NYY and Shelley Duncan screwed up, not learning to catch. He had a home grown catching instructor growing up. His dad, Dave was a pretty good defensive catcher in his day.”

    Duncan’s too big to be a catcher.

  21. Mac Daddy June 15th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    I’ve said it numerous times…the yanks played their best ball with Molina behind the plate last season and then it all fell apart when they got Pudge…If Posada was behind the plate yesterday, Burnett falls apart in that 3rd inning of yesterdays game…Posada was an ok catcher in the late 90′s and early 2000′s…he no longer is…If he couldnt hit, he wouldnt be in the league…

  22. Wow. June 15th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    A voice of reason. Thank you, Pete.

  23. Someone Else June 15th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    CB -

    I do think the CERA thing is overblown, however, I HAVE seen situations where Jorge’s gamecalling was less than top-notch (the low and outside fastball, fouled off, low and outside fastball, fouled off, low and outside fastball, fouled off, low and outside fastball, fouled off, low and outside fastball, hit for a double to left field type ABs).

    I’d have to study it with actual pitch by pitch data, though, and obviously, some pitchers are more likely to shake off (Joba) than others.

  24. westchester dave June 15th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    Pete: Disagree with you about keeping Cervelli on the roster after Molina’s return. I think it would be better for his long-term development to spend July and August playing everyday in Scranton and return when the rosters expand in September.

  25. Joey's Poodle June 15th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    This blog is full of lightweights who fall in and out of love with a new face with stunning regularity. The kind of folks who thought Swisher was a first baseman, then that he was an outfielder, when what he was (and is) was the class clown with an occasional hitting streak.

    Once in a while Pete has to do a ‘back to basics’ post on whatever nonsense has them frothing at the keyboard.

    Thanks Pete.

  26. Carl June 15th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    Missing 30 starts from Wang/Joba last year was the reason we didn’t make the playoffs.

  27. Uncle Ellsworth (Expert texpert choking smokers don't you think the joker laughs at you?) June 15th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    Jorge caught 2 good starts by AJ.
    Texas and Angels I think.
    He also caught the game against Boston where AJ gave up the 6 run lead. And the Boston game last week where he “had too much rest”. In the first instance the general consensus is that AJ imploded, in the second case Girardi took the blame for futzing with the rotation. This would account for the AJ’s inflated era when Jorge is catching AJ.

    GB as discusssed before, if Cervelli could be adequate at other positions he would be invaluable to some teams especially NL teams.

  28. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    Who says, Duncan’s too big to be catcher, a #3 catcher at that. Too big like Mauer, Weiters, Montero and Fisk?

  29. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    Yeah, I think someone somewhere (probably Boston) wrote a book on how to predict Jorge Posada’s pitches and it’s been circulating around the league. Either that or he’s been around so long and has become predictable.

  30. Doris from Rego Park June 15th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    I have been away the past few days and was curious if the posters in here have called for the head of Dave Eisland yet? How can he POSSIBLY not be on the hot seat? The yanks are in the bottom 5 in team ERA for all of MLB.

  31. Danny June 15th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    Berroa’s spot is going to Nady when he is ready

  32. Tommy H June 15th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    Agree Pete- best team has Jorge behind the plate, and I also think that this team should carry 3 catchers to let Jorge DH sometimes while allowing the team to pinch hit for the other catcher late in games-

  33. Sandman June 15th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    Thanks Pete. This “problem” with Posada was always nonsense. Torre — a catcher, and Girardi — a catcher, would have been the first to spot any problem with Posada. They haven’t, for that reason alone there isn’t a problem.

    The large number of Yankee wins for the past 8 years with Posada’s name on them, kind of point to Posada’s success too.

    If there was a real problem, someone would have leaked it by now. No-one has.

    Q.E.D. Posada is a good catcher.

  34. Level 7 June 15th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    Doris,

    If you read the game post yesterday, Eliand said that fear of the ballpark is the reason why the pitchers are not throwing strikes.

  35. Joe Monte June 15th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    Fair points Peter, but Posada is now 8 years older so I think defensively he’s a different catcher from the dynasty years. Calling a game, that’s the same as it ever was.

    The Yanks should move Posada to DH next season and dump Damon & Matsui.

  36. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    “Berroa’s spot is going to Nady when he is ready”

    Does Nady’s elbow know this ?

  37. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Danny, Nady is not coming back. He’s just trying to do everything he can to get back because he’s in a contract year – if he had signed a 3 year deal last year I guarantee you he wouldn’t even be attempting a return.

  38. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Well I might as well open myself to the abuse that this will bring, but I am going for it. There are enough of us who have questioned whether there is a problem with Posada that I think we deserve better answers than we’ve been getting from the posters here who are outraged that we even question their son, er, brother, er cousin – oh, favorite Yankee player. Whatever.

    Pete I will say that it makes me feel a tad better that you do not notice any problem whatsoever here because I actually think that except for Arod, you do have a lot of objectivity when it comes to Yankee players.

    I had just written a response to someone who seemed to have the same take as some of us who have questioned Jorge’s skills, and I’ll repost it here.

    I also appreciate the posters who are honest enough to note that Jorge’s offense is critical to the team – something I certainly acknowledge – and that posters such as Randy have acknowledged Posada to be an average defensive catcher, a position that I heartily endorse.

    I also found it offputting to read that Posada goes with his gut rather than looking at scouting reports. IF that’s true, it should send chills through everyone since it is obvious that Posada hasn’t been getting great results behind the plate lately.

    Anyway, here is how it’s at least felt lately to be on the side questioning Posada:

    Side 1 – Pitchers don’t seem to do so well with Posada.

    Side 2 – They’re stupid.

    Side 1 – Some pitchers actually have asked not to have Posada.

    Side 2 – They’re stupid.

    Side 1 – We’ve tried to look at stats but you reject those. We’ve tried to look at game results but you reject that. We’ve tried to quote pitchers preferences but you reject that. We feel we’re watching the problem with our own eyes, but you reject that too? What do you think the problem is?

    Side 2 – You’re stupid.

    Side 1 – We see pitchers shaking Posada off and him not handling it well. What do you think of that?

    Side 2 – They’re stupid.

    Side 1 – So are you saying that there is not any part of this that has to do with Posada’s game calling and it is all on the pitchers who prefer other catchers, the pitchers who shake him off, and the pitchers who don’t have success with him but have obvious success with other catchers?

    Side 2 – Everyone’s stupid but Jorge.

    *******************************

    While it is true that Jorge has been the catcher behind many great seasons, is it possible that his skills have slipped at all or that perhaps he has gotten too comfortable with his game-calling skills and with so many new players coming into the game he would be better off checking scouting reports than trusting his instincts?

    I know, I’m stupid.

  39. E-gawa June 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    A third catcher and two DH’s? That’s not going to work. Matsui will end up riding the bench the rest of the season taking the place of Berroa.

  40. CountryClub June 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Good job, Pete. Sadly, I can already see that it has had very little impact on a few of the Posada bashers.

  41. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    Ellie, as both of us know, NYY had a couple of those types before….Ellie Howard and Johnny Blanchard. all Howard did was become the 1963 AL MVP and Blanchard set pinching hitting and WS records as a pinch hitter.

  42. Wow. June 15th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    Trish, you are not stupid. But you are wrong. There is a difference.

  43. Wow. June 15th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    ^ (Trisha not Trish, I just don’t know you that well, lol)

  44. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    Peter is 100% right.

  45. Doreen - Been to the New Stadium June 15th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    I’d like to think this will put a bookend on the subject, but I know it will not. The only thing that will do that is for the Yankees to win.

  46. E-gawa June 15th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    “Missing 30 starts from Wang/Joba last year was the reason we didn’t make the playoffs.”

    You mean Hughes/Kennedy/Wang. Joba should have been in the pen, where he belongs.

  47. Scorpio June 15th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    “Their best lineup is when Posada is catching.”

    It’ll be interesting to see who pairs up with AJ next outing. Doesn’t matter what fans think, it’s in Girardi’s hands to stop this.

  48. CB June 15th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    “I HAVE seen situations where Jorge’s gamecalling was less than top-notch (the low and outside fastball, fouled off, low and outside fastball, fouled off, low and outside fastball, fouled off, low and outside fastball, fouled off, low and outside fastball, hit for a double to left field type ABs).”

    I don’t disagree. Posada is far from perfect. But no player is.

    Every catcher has situations where his gamecalling is inadequate.

    With that bat, you more than live with it.

    For a comparison – Alex Rodriguez isn’t a particularly good third baseman defensively. He’s ok. About average. I’d say Posada is as at least as good behind the plate as Alex is at 3b. On the whole his pluses outweigh the minuses by enormous amounts.

    Joe Mauer is in a class by himself behind the plate. Mauer is starting to marshal an argument for being the one of the top 5 catchers of all time.

    After Mauer I’d say Posada is the best catcher in the game. Perhaps Victor Martinez – but Martinez’s defense really isn’t very good and he’s almost more a DH.

    Posada is a great player. He’s a hall of fame talent – question is whether he’ll be able to play long enough to make up for the fact that Torre didn’t give him enough playing time until he was 26.

  49. Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    I’ve never thought of Posada as a great catcher. Never thought of him as anything more than average. However, his bat has been so strong, so far above average for the position, that I as a Yankees fans, have no problem with the team sacrifiing a little defense to have him there. Using a high end defensive catcher, who can’t hit (say for example, Molina and Cervelli) in favor of a guy who’s not great back there, but also doesn’t really hurt you all that much either, makes no sense. The Yankees best lineup is one with Posada at catcher.

  50. room for opinion June 15th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Posada is an asset by all means,heart and soul of the Yankees. He did break the error less streak when he returned,and the pitchers have had horrendous outings.It could be just his intensity that’s not being received well.

    Molina calls a good game too,but don’t all Molina’s,it’s in their blood?

  51. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Ha ha I find it kind of funny that people ignore the Joba to the pen comments.

  52. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Red Sox are about to land Jack Wilson to improve thier defense, wonderwhen the Yankees will do that for the OF :?

  53. Carl June 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    E-gawa

    Hughes/Kennedy gave us 0 wins last year.

  54. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    The arguement with “there are pitchers that asked not to have Posada catch” is nonsense. If they can pitch, it won’t make any difference who the catcher is. The fact that the pitchers can’t hold runners is their fault, not Posada’s….same with walks and hanging beach balls. How smart are most pitchers…..some were so smart that they didn’t want Yogi Berra to catch them. If they insisted, they got their way….with other teams.

  55. Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    fans = fan

  56. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    Hold on-ARod is a great third baseman. He has a great arm and can make some tremendous plays. Jorge is not the worst defensive catcher in the world, but he’s not even in the ame league as A-Rod defensively.

  57. RhapsodyInBlue June 15th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    I prefer Posada at DH. Both Cervelli and of course Molina are better at stopping/balls into the dirt.

    Defense from the catcher postion is important too.

  58. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    ame=same

  59. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Wow, Trish is fine also. :)

    I guess you have to realize that I am not convinced I am wrong since there are so many questions swirling around and Jorge’s legend hard-headeness continues to give me pause.

    But I am more than willing to fall on my sword and actually pray that I get the opportunity on this one since I realize that Jorge is going to be the catcher for the majority of the games.

    When I know I’ve gotten it wrong, I acknowledge it. I’ve done almost daily mea culpas here for thinking Tex was an unnecessary acquisition! I did mea culpas for thinking Andy shouldn’t be brought back (though these days i have been questioning my mea culpas… :) ) That said, I still have serious concerns about Posada behind the dish (certainly no questions about him at bat.)

  60. Frank from Chatham June 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Agreed!!

    Posada is one of the real leaders on this team and it is sometimes difficult for those who must follow to get into line.

    He brings a lot including grit and determination for the entire 9 innings.

  61. RhapsodyInBlue June 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    *stopping/catching

  62. Stultus Magnus June 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    “I know, I’m stupid.”

    You are not stupid, Trish. Just hypnotized by those eyes. There’s a difference. ;)

    If it comes down to calling a game, especially between Joba and Posada, I take the guy who’s been there for over a decade and has been successful during that decade. I’ve heard of a declining power and declining effectiveness at keeping runners honest, but I’ve never heard of declining game-calling skills. But if I’m missing something there, then let me know. [that was not condescending sarcasm, I'm serious]

  63. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Thanks for posting this, Pete. Conspiracy theories can sometimes have a quirky charm when they’re whispered from the shadows, but they get annoying when they’re bellowed from a loudspeaker day after day after day.

  64. Mark in Tampa June 15th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    “Martinez’s defense really isn’t very good and he’s almost more a DH.”

    VMart’s future is likely at first base, and at many years younger than Posada, too.

    Wonder if there is any blame being put on Varitek today for Beckett’s awful outing yesterday?

  65. CountryClub June 15th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    Right now Arod is not a great defensive third baseman. Right now he’s a statue – I assume because of the injury/surgery. Still has the great arm though.

  66. you gotta have faith (i love cisco!) June 15th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    AMEN brotha!

  67. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    CountryClub, RIGHT NOW, becasue of the hip, he’s not great, although statue is a little too far. Over his career though, at first base AND shortstop, he has been far superior defensively to Jorge. And Jorge has not been awful.

  68. Mac Daddy June 15th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    Cervelli showed in one inning, the 3rd, how important a good catcher behind the plate is…Posada catches yesterday, different ballgame

  69. E-gawa June 15th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    “E-gawa

    Hughes/Kennedy gave us 0 wins last year.”

    And that’s what cost us the playoffs. 17 games wasted right there.

  70. Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    “Wonder if there is any blame being put on Varitek today for Beckett’s awful outing yesterday?”

    Probably not. He was watching the game from the bench.

  71. Carl June 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    “Wonder if there is any blame being put on Varitek today for Beckett’s awful outing yesterday?”

    Probably not. He was watching the game from the bench.

    lol

  72. Wow. June 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    All good points, Trisha – but try to skip the part about being wrong and go right to the mea culpa! The baseball people on this blog know of what they speak.

  73. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    “Defense from the catcher postion is important too.”

    apparently not, it’s always 20 HRs 120 RBIs or bust here. :?

  74. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    If Posada caught yesterday, it could have been 17-0…Cevelli drove in the run with that first single, how do we know he wouldn’t have hit a HR? Also, doesn’t the fact that A.J. was in that bases loaded no outs jam in the first place say something? I was amazed reading the posts yesterday, you’d think Cervelli pitched…is it possible that A.J. just wasn’t executing and that after the first three men got on he started making the right pitches? Doesn’t necessarily mean Cervelli.

  75. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Varitek doesn’t watch from the bench, he big-C Captains from the bench.

  76. room for opinion June 15th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    The only person to book end this is Posada.When the Pitchers start winning,with him calling the games,it will be a moot point.Posada can right this ship for sure.

    *I don’t think a single Yankees fan doesn’t love and respect his work ethic,and dedication to the team.He’s never been in a scandal and wears the stripe like the True blue Yankee ,he’ll always be

  77. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Brandon, 20 HR’s and 120 RBI’s is more important than great defense…Posada is not awful out there, just average. This whole thing is being blown way out of proportion.

  78. Ron June 15th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    Cervelli has really exceeded expectations. With Montero and Romine on the way in the next 2 – 3 years, the Yankess should be in very good shape at this critical position for years to come.

    Carrying 3 catchers is a luxury these days. The Yankees need the most help in the Pen, so carrying as many as 12 pitchers is almost mandatory, especially if their starters can’t start giving them more innings.

    Unless Cervelli regresses, he should be the # 2 catcher next season, and Molina will be gone. When Molina has recovered physicallly, send Cervelli down and let him catch every day in AAA, since he’llbe catching a lot of games for the Yanks next year with Posada a year older.

    Posada has been the Yanks regular catcher for 5 World Series teams. He may have been a bit out of synch with certain pitchers during his career, but thats not unusual for most catchers. He’s still one of the best offensive catchers around, and the Yanks need his bat, especially if AROD doesn’t start hitting.

  79. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    Not healthy either “Wait till”

  80. Scorpio June 15th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    “Cervelli showed in one inning, the 3rd, how important a good catcher behind the plate is…Posada catches yesterday, different ballgame”

    Sadly I agree, I like Posada but I don’t think AJ would’ve escaped that inning unscathed had Posada been there. It happened in Boston, result was a Varitek grand slam.

    It’s obvious, it must have been the mesmerizing dreamy eyes that captivated the umps! lol.

  81. 86w183 June 15th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    I think Jorge used a great word. Catchers “suggest” pitches. It’s the guy on the mound who agrees with or disagrees with the advice. Ideally they are of the same mindset on working hitters but not always. I’ve seen guys shake off a catcher and give up a HR and I’ve seen them strike the guy out and everything in between.

    The idea of three catchers only works if Nady does not return. Otherwise there’s no realistic way to make it work, is there?

    Does Hughes go out tonight/tomorrow when Bruney is activated? Robertson? Adios to Veras or Tomko? I have no idea what to expect the next time Wang goes out there.

  82. Jon Ringland June 15th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    I definitely agree with this post. Plus, if you keep ‘Sisco up and let Posada mentor him, you could potentially have yourself one hell of a catcher for the next 10 years.

  83. Patrick June 15th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    Missing Posada last year was the #1 reason the Yankees missed the playoffs. He is average behind the plate but his bat more than makes up for it. Similar to Jeter who is less than average in the field but has an excellent bat for a shortstop.

    I’m not too sure what people hope to accomplish by saying Posada sucks behind the plate. Do you want him off the team and Cervelli starting? You all can’t possibly be that stupid can you? Do you want Posada at DH? Matsui/Posada vs Posada/Cervelli. Still a silly proposition, you’d lose many more runs at the plate than you would gain in defense.

    Some people just don’t think and always need something to complain about.

  84. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    Yeah Brandon, but offensively he’s worth far more to this team (and he’s doing well right now) with avg. defense than Cervelli is w/great D.

  85. Joey's Poodle June 15th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    Eiland is very creative — about excuses.

  86. Bitt June 15th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Can we get Shelley Duncan up and send back Berroa? Does this make any sense why Berroa is on this team at all with Pena also there? Duncan is a big righty bat who can play verse tough lefties and give Matsui some nights off.

  87. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Scorpio, you seriously think Posada called a meatball down the middle in Boston? A.J. just didn’t execute in Boston. Yesterday he executed.

  88. RhapsodyInBlue June 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    Defense wins ballgames too. I can recall a few passballs that have contributed to runs being scored in critical games.

  89. Mark in Tampa June 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    “Probably not. He was watching the game from the bench”

    Oops, I didn’t watch anything but the score from that game, but the point remains the same. Varitek, the great leader, the impeccable game caller, Mr. Intangible(only because there are so few tangibles), has been the catcher during some awful RS pitching performances. He doesn’t get any blame because his reputation is that he a great game caller. When Jorge is behind the plate, the blame goes on him because many fans and some media members have gotten it in their heads that he is a suspect game caller.

    The funny part is that nobody outside of the pitcher, catcher, and maybe a few coaches know whether the catcher called a bad game or the pitcher just sucked that night.

  90. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    Brandon: Georgy is ok calling games, Molina and Cisco are better.

    And you know this based on….. what?

    To quote The Dude: That’s just, like, your opinion, man…

    and we all know what opinions are like.

  91. Patrick from CT June 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    Posada is good enough behind the plate and his bat is a must in the lineup. I’d have him catching 3 out of every 5 days and never 3 in a row to keep him fresh. He should DH once or twice a week.
    Molina is by far the best option behind the plate but his bat is not vary good. He will not likely be back in 2010.
    Cervelli has done vary well and may have played is way onto the 2010 team as the backup. Cervelli will go down when/if Molina is healthy, but he’ll be back in September.
    They won’t go with 3 catchers Berroa is the mascot…

  92. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    “I don’t disagree. Posada is far from perfect. But no player is.

    Every catcher has situations where his gamecalling is inadequate.

    With that bat, you more than live with it.”

    I respect this answer more than just about any other that I have seen. I would still like to see more accountability from Posada for getting in touch with scouting reports (if it is true that he doesn’t bother) but thank you for what you just said.

    It shows a lot more thought and intelligence than the “that’s nonsense” nonanswer that continues to be thrown out here. We are all aware that Mussina said he preferred Molina and that he got his first 20-game season with Molina catching the majority of his games. And we all know that there have been pitchers who have had “personal catchers” if you will, and some are on their way to the Hall of Fame. If it was so simple as GB portrays it, no pitcher would ever have preference for a personal catcher. And Greg Maddux never would have refused to have Javy Lopez as his catcher.

    Anyway, CB, thanks for the acknowledgment.

  93. IRememberCelerinoSanchez June 15th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    I know I’m in late, but to correct something Ghost said earlier, Posada was the main catcher in 1998 and 1999:

    1998 Posada 111 games, Girardi 78 games
    1999 Posada 112 games, Girardi 65 games

  94. Stultus Magnus June 15th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    “It’s obvious, it must have been the mesmerizing dreamy eyes that captivated the umps! lol.”

    No, no, no, no. It wasn’t the umps…it was Burnett who became mesmerized by Cervelli’s big dreamy eyes.

    Thow it here, throw it for a strike, right here…

  95. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    A limited sample size this year does not wipe away several years of calling some great pitcching staffs and champonship teams.

  96. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    I was stunned when Posada called for that Varitek grand slam.

  97. you gotta have faith (i love cisco!) June 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    how about a more concerning and interesting question than posada.

    Does anyone think that Arod’s hip is bothering him more than he would like others to believe and thats why hes still not hitting?

  98. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    trisha, I highly doubt that it’s true that Posada doesn’t look at scouting reports.

    Of course I don’t know but I’m not going to trash the guy for a rumor that may not be true.

  99. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    “Yeah Brandon, but offensively he’s worth far more to this team (and he’s doing well right now) with avg. defense than Cervelli is w/great D.”

    Until he gets hurt, even having him everday as a C is risky to his health. I know about the bat in ideal world Georgy is the DH, same could go for Damon.

  100. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    I will say one thing about this that’s contrary to my general position, and that some pitchers do get it in their heads that they work better with a particular catcher, sometimes for good reason.

    There is no good reason why AJ Burnett can’t be just as successful with Posada as he can be with Cervelli or Molina. In fact, we’ve seen it happen with out own eyes.

    But as Yogi said, “”Baseball is 90% mental — the other half is physical.” If a knucklehead like AJ does better throwing to another catcher and they can match it up with Jorge’s off days, no problem for now. But down the road, AJ will have to throw to Posada.

  101. Dr. Cox June 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    BS!

  102. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    you gotta have faith, probably. I’m still glad he’s not on the DL. There have been five players that have been involved in almost all our comebacks. They have been Melky, Jeter, Damon, Tex, and yes, A-Rod. He has been extremely clutch this year.

  103. room for opinion June 15th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    A shaky pitcher,a rookie catcher,bases loaded,and NO RUNS SCORED.

    Same rookie catcher,catches for the bull pen,AND NO RUNS SCORED,on bull pen,in fact no runs scored the entire game.What’s the difference……?

    Who actually thought AJ,would trounce the great SANTANNA,who?

  104. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    “Brandon: Georgy is ok calling games, Molina and Cisco are better.

    And you know this based on….. what?”

    What we see.

  105. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    “Brandon: Georgy is ok calling games, Molina and Cisco are better.

    And you know this based on….. what?

    To quote The Dude: That’s just, like, your opinion, man…

    and we all know what opinions are like.”

    DutchHugo, you have just set up the classic Catch22! When people point to stats, those are roundly rejected. When people say they observe it in the way Posada calls for certain pitches, that is rejected.

    Is it possible that Brandon is right on the money and your opinion to the contrary is just that – and we all know what opinions are like!

    Just pointing out that if you set up a Catch22, then you have put someone in checkmate before the match even begins. If that’s your intent, well then I guess that’s fine.

  106. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    I agree with your last comment Nick.

  107. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    If NYY makes it to the post season, they’d better be able to pitch to Posada, because unless he’s injured, he’ll be catching.

  108. Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    “I was stunned when Posada called for that Varitek grand slam.”

    Yeah, that was strange given the situation. So many catchers would have just called for outs in that spot.

  109. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    Another point people are ignoring about Cervelli – and I think it’s the most important point – is that Cervelli adds a much different dynamic to the offense than Posada and Molina. With Posada or Molina on the bases the Yankees are playing station to station whereby it will most of the time take 3 singles to get either of them home from first base. That fact, combined with the willingness and ability for Cervelli to move runners over (he’s shown himself to be a very fundamentally sound bunter) gives this Yankee team a dynamic that is critical in my opinion because the Yankees didn’t really get going this year until they started playing small ball – that, combined with their power made them the most dangerous team in baseball.

  110. CB June 15th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    It’s often said that the yankee’s dynasty of the late 1990′s was built on pitching – and that’s true.

    But what’s less often discussed is that nearly as important was the fact that those teams had three up the middle players playing positions that typically provide almost no offensive value – Catcher, SS, and CF – who were great hitters for their positions.

    If you look at say Bernie’s numbers and compare them to the average player of that era they look good but not great. Go back and compare them to what the average CF was doing – they become remarkable.

    And Posada was front and center in that. Bernie, Jeter and Posada generated enormous marginal advantages for those Yankee teams compared to the opposition. The reason why they could win with Scott Brosius being a below average 3b wasn’t due to Brosuis’s grit – it was because the yanks were getting unexpected production from C,SS and CF.

    And Posada has only gotten better as a hitter since that time while the average offensive stats for a catcher may have gotten worse with the end of the steroid era.

    He’s a remarkable talent.

  111. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    Brandon, then you’re just not going to count like 12 years of catching for Posada?

  112. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    It’s incorrect to say that the ‘stats’ in this case have just been rejected out of hand. CB (among others) has explained very well why the particular stat that keeps getting tossed out isn’t useful.

  113. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    Does anyone think that Arod’s hip is bothering him more than he would like others to believe and thats why hes still not hitting?

    ==================

    I don’t think Arod would be stealing bases if his hip was hurting

  114. SJ44 June 15th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    Trisha,

    Here is where the issue fails re: Posada.

    Catchers, pitchers, the pitching coach and the manager go over a game plan prior to each start. Together, they devise a game plan to attack the hitters in the lineups.

    That plan alters from hitter to hitter, situation to situation, game to game, series to series. Scouting reports have gotten so sophisticated these days, teams know what hitters like to swing at when the count is 2-1, 3-0, etc. That said, you have to modify them according to what’s happening with your opponent at the time you play them.

    Conversely, teams also follow pitching patterns, ie: What pitchers like to throw in different situations, counts, etc.

    The game starts. For example, the scouting report may say that Dustin Pedroia has been having trouble with breaking balls away lately. Problem is, your starter for the day is having trouble throwing breaking pitches. What do you do?

    That’s what seperates the men from the boys back there. The guy that can navigate his pitcher through a lineup, working on the stuff he has for that start. Sometimes, the pitchers strength on a given day plays right into a hitters strength. That’s where experience comes in as far as how to handle a given situation.

    From a fan perspective, they don’t have any idea what the game plan calls for each game. They see a guy struggling, gives up hits and/or walks, and someone has to be the “bad guy”. Often, fans pick the wrong guy.

    Joba’s start the other night was a classic example of such an occurance. It was Jorge’s fault Joba couldn’t throw strikes, according to the fans. Or Dave Eiland’s fault.

    “Look, he’s shaking off Posada all the time”! “Jorge doesn’t know what he’s doing”, folks crowed.

    They were 100% wrong. It was JOBA, not Jorge, who messed up that night.

    He shakes off ALL the catchers too much and that gets him into trouble.

    Jorge’s gamecalling skills aren’t an issue. Is he the smoothest guy back there? No. Is he a “problem” with the team? Absolutely not.

    If he was healthy last year, they make the playoffs. That’s how important he is to this team.

    Posada’s gamecalling skills are one of those internet urban legends that happen and folks take useless stats, like catchers ERA, to try and bolster the argument.

    Joba’s best start of the year came in Cleveland. Who was the catcher? Jorge. How many times did he shake off Jorge in that game? Three. One resulted in a hit, one was a ball away, and one was a strike.

    When Joba keeps the shaking off stuff to a minimum, he’s a better pitcher.

    That said, there are instances where some guys just don’t click between pitcher and catcher. When that happens, you work with it. It happens with every team.

    Greg Maddox for example, hated throwing to Javy Lopez. He preferred Eddie Perez. Eddie probably got 4 more years of service time in the game than he deserved because of his relationship with Maddox.

    You adjust for a HOF pitcher. For a kid starting out like Joba, or a guy who has had trouble throwing strikes his entire career (AJ), you know what? THEY, and not the catcher or team, make the adjustments.

    There isn’t a teamwide problem with Jorge and the pitchers. Any one who says otherwise has never spoken to a Yankee pitcher nor truly understand the relationship between pitcher and catcher. There are days its going to be combustible. Its the nature of the game.

  115. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    We all know that in Boston when A.J had his first start Cervelli would have called for a pitch that just would have whispered across the outside corner and been unhittable-not like silly Posada, who called for a meatball down the middle. I’m with GB7 on that one.

  116. Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    “is that Cervelli adds a much different dynamic to the offense than Posada”

    making outs?

  117. randy l. June 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    “They won’t go with 3 catchers Berroa is the mascot…”

    couldn’t they just pay berroa a lot to be the bat boy and not take up a roster spot?

  118. dave June 15th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Name another quality catcher who, throughout his career, has had problems with a dozen or so pitchers.

    You can’t do it, because that guy doesn’t exist outside of Posada. Most great catchers will have 1, maybe 2, guys they really don’t mix with in their career. Posada has a closet full of them.

    For those who need numbers added to any argument, this is easy to quantify.

    Pitchers ERA with Posada

    vs

    Pitchers ERA without Posada

    This year:

    Posada 6.31
    Cervelli 4.37

  119. you gotta have faith (i love cisco!) June 15th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    “I don’t think Arod would be stealing bases if his hip was hurting”

    true. but arod also tends to do things that he shouldn’t. lol

  120. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    “Brandon, then you’re just not going to count like 12 years of catching for Posada?”

    When did I say that ? all I want is for him to split time, 60 % of him catching not 75 – 80 %, he’s going to wear out and the pitcher’s need to get in a groove.

  121. AZBob June 15th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    I agree with you Pete, Jorge is a fierce competitor and a true Yankee.

  122. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    “All good points, Trisha – but try to skip the part about being wrong and go right to the mea culpa! The baseball people on this blog know of what they speak.”

    :lol:

    I don’t mean to laugh but at least one of the experts called for Robby Cano to be traded last season and another insisted we get rid of Melky and go for a “real” CF. I will say that the particular expert who called for a “real” CF did come out and say he was wrong.

    No, I think I will continue on my way and hold off on the mea culpa until it appears it is called for. I have more fear of people who are immutable in their stances, Wow, than I do of those who are willing to continue to explore and be proved wrong.

    :)

  123. Scorpio June 15th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    I was stunned when Posada called for that Varitek grand slam.

    Yeah, I was SO surprised too, Posada should have known better being the veteran he is. AJ was cruising along with a 6-0 lead and then lost it, kinda like yesterday but wait…somehow a kid guided him through his jam by calling for breaking stuff instead of a fastball down the middle.
    (sarcasm implied)

    Results are what counts, when AJ continues to win with Posada this will all go away. I have nothing against Posada. So save some of the snark.

  124. Patrick June 15th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    “If he was healthy last year, they make the playoffs. That’s how important he is to this team.”

    Everyone hating on Posada should read this 3 times because it’s the truth. Argument over.

  125. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    dave, two problems there.

    A.) Name the dozen pitchers, and prove he had problems with them.

    B.) I don’t know of other catchers’ relationships with other pitchers becasue I’m Yankee fan, so they could have an issue with every pitcher who ever pitched for all I know.

  126. dave June 15th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    “If he was healthy last year, they make the playoffs. That’s how important he is to this team.”

    Not because of anything he does behind the plate… which is what most people are angsting over right now.

  127. Andrew June 15th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    I won’t understand the logic if Robertson gets sent down when Bruney is activated and Berroa and Tomko both get to retain their roster spots. He has done nothing to really adversely hurt his cause as a major league reliever yet the guy can not get a fair shake out of the bullpen. The thought that just because he has options remaining, he will get sent down, is stupid because how does he not have more value than Tomko, Berroa and Veras even (although I know he isn’t going anywhere due to pitching slightly better lately)?

  128. JoeT 28 in 10!! OPPC Click Here!! June 15th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Well said as always SJ.

    I know that pitchers have a “feel” for a certain pitch at a certain time, it may be against the scouting report/whatever the catcher called for but they have a feel for it and want to throw it. That happens and even as a catcher, I’m fine with it. However, there is no reason that Joba shakes off the catcher a few times an inning and sometimes 10+ times per game. At this stage in his career, I think we would be better served not thinking and just pitching

  129. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    CB, any reason why you ignored Knoblauch? He had some great years in the 4 years on the team and won 3 titles as part of that up the middle quartet. I think a lot of people have selective memory when it comes to Knoblauch’s contribution to those championships because all they remember was that play at first and the yips. When he wasn’t nailing Olberman’s mom in the head or complaining to the umps he was the most valuable 2nd basemen the Yankees had since Bobby Richardson.

  130. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    “couldn’t they just pay berroa a lot to be the bat boy and not take up a roster spot?”

    bat boy? How about showing a little respect for your elders, randy?

  131. Doreen - Been to the New Stadium June 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    Name the closet full of pitchers who said they can’t work with Posada. Go ahead. All of them, the at least one dozen, that you have seen in writing in a reputable place.

    Besides Brown and Johnson and Mussina.

  132. bizarrojamie June 15th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    Isn’t Cervelli a converted 3rd baseman? I’m sure he could remember how to do some fielding if necessary.

  133. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    Scorpio, sorry, but when you miss with your pitches it’ll make every catcher look bad.

  134. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    Fatcessa hating on Robi, calling him a tack on hitter w/o saying it.

  135. dave June 15th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    “A.) Name the dozen pitchers, and prove he had problems with them.”

    I admit it, I tossed out ‘dozen’ without being sure of the number. My opinion is that the actual number is larger than that… but just to get you started, read through these comments, at least 6 examples are given. 3 right in the original post.

    “B.) I don’t know of other catchers’ relationships with other pitchers becasue I’m Yankee fan, so they could have an issue with every pitcher who ever pitched for all I know.”

    I live in Boston, gossip and stupid drama capital of the world… and have never heard of a single spat between V-tek and a pitcher. Not once. Let alone a handful.

  136. Doreen - Been to the New Stadium June 15th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    And for the record, I don’t remember Mussina saying he couldn’t work with Posada, but he did have a preference for Molina (and Flaherty, I believe).

  137. Stultus Magnus June 15th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    “I have more fear of people who are immutable in their stances”

    It’s not good to fear yourself.

  138. Trevor June 15th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    :lol: Francesa “I could use one of those against the RS” talking about Cano not doing anything in a big spot.

  139. dave June 15th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    “Besides Brown and Johnson and Mussina.”

    Thanks for Brown – I forgot about him.

  140. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    Doreen, I think you got it right when you said the only thing that will convince people (who need convincing) is for the Yankees to win.

    I would like to add that what I would like to see happen is not that Posada not catch games but that more time is given to other catchers, more of a split than 80-20. I don’t think it will happen.

    Not in My House – I have no idea where the information came from that Posada does not read scoupting reports but goes more on instinct. I can only say that I hope it isn’t the case.

    ***************************

    While I have never been afraid to stand on my own on any particular issue, as we all know here, it appears I am far from on my own on this issue. I will continue to respect the opinions on both sides of the issue since I know that people can differ in their perceptions and perspectives. And last but not least, my father always taught is that there are (at least) three sides to every story: mine, yours, and the truth. I believe that the reality to this story lies somewhere in the middle.

  141. randy l. June 15th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    “How about showing a little respect for your elders, randy?”

    i used to play with jackie elder.

    he was a pain in the butt.

  142. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    Knoblauch didn’t have great years in NY. He had some good ones. He left his great seasons in Minnesota.

  143. sab June 15th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    so if i’m understanding this correctly – cervelli just calls what the pitcher wants to throw and everyone says he’s the better gamecaller….so if posada just calls what the pitcher wants to throw would that end this neverending argument?

    the yankees missed the playoffs last year because their pitching was horrific – the only way they would have made the playoffs last year with posada playing is if posada had hit 327 homeruns and had 1259 rbis…

  144. Mark in Tampa June 15th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    If you are going to quote a catcher’s ERA for Posada at 6.31, and use that to make a point, then you must be blaming Jorge for Wang’s terrible start. He caught all of Wang’s first three, incuding the 14 run Wang/Claggett second inning against Cleve.

    If you assume, like everybody else, that Wang is pitching bad on his own w/o any help from the catchers, then you have to back out those three starts. All of a sudden, Posada and Cervelli are real close in their catcher’s ERA.

  145. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Who’s Casiyo ?

  146. The Other Phil June 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Typical. Yankees club the Mets silly so the bridge-jumpers need something to talk about so they pick on Posada’s game-calling ability. Need something to get through the off-day, eh?

    In regards to the ‘other quality catcher w/ problems with pitchers’, I’d think that there quite a few pitchers that would say they had a problem with Pudge Rodriguez… And how many catchers actually last 12 years? I think longevity (and continued production) say something about Posada’s ability to catch…

  147. Wow. June 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Trisha – the person who has to prove you wrong deserves better than that. For whatever reason, I feel bad that a solid catcher, borderline HOFer and truly great Yankee has such detractors. It’s not right.

    And that Pitcher ERA stat has to go.

  148. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    You know, we have no proof that A.J. dislikes throwing to Posada.

    And dave, if you read the whole post, you’d figure out that Pete alsmo mentioned several pitchers who love pitching to Posada.

  149. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    And for the record, this entire non-issue has been hashed out ad nauseum, so of course it’s become a running joke on this blog. To get all huffy and complain about people having fun with this topic would be the height of folly.

  150. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    “Francesa “I could use one of those against the RS” talking about Cano not doing anything in a big spot.”

    They are going to turn him into 05-06 Arod

  151. S.A.--Let's get ready to rumble! June 15th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    Who’s Casiyo ?

    =====================

    :lol:

  152. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    “It’s not good to fear yourself.”

    Stultus, people who are questioning and looking for answers but are willing to fall on their swords are not immutable in their stances. But from someone who advocated storming the moat after the newspaper reported that it was NYU that wanted to leave the Legends seats empty since a student had streaked at the last commencement, it somehow doesn’t surprise me that this would come from you.

    :)

  153. SJ44 June 15th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    That’s just not true. Do you think its a coincidence he has had the career he has had? Do you really think he has done “nothing” behind the plate? Seriously, you can’t be that ignorant can you?

    Hall of Fame pitchers loved throwing to him. Andy Pettitte has won more games with Posada catching him than most pitcher-catcher tandems in baseball history. Do you think Posada has nothing to do with that? Andy is legendary for not wanting to call his own games.

    You want me to name catchers who have had trouble with pitchers over the years? Ok, here’s a short list….

    Thurman Munson.
    Rick Dempsey.
    Mike Piazza.
    Jason Varitek.
    Carlton Fisk.
    Johnny Bench.

    I could go on but, you get the point.

    ALL catcher and pitchers have tussles from time to time.

    Bob Gibson’s two best friends in baseball are Joe Torre and Tim McCarver. He actually got into fistfights with BOTH guys after particularly two bad starts, one with each behind the plate. It happens.

    To suggest that Posada “hurts” this team behind the plate is laughable. It really is.

    Its just blind scapegoating and nothing more.

  154. S.A.--Let's get ready to rumble! June 15th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    No talk from diet coke on Andy struggling? :?

  155. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    wow, alsmo is also.

  156. for yankees fans June 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    pete, u r the one who preached that the yankees would win this year with ”run PREVENTION.”

    Simple question; are the yanks as good a defensive team when posada catches as they r when molina or cervelli does?

    u’d have to be biased to answer yes.

    those three world series were 8 1/2 years and a very serious arm inury and surgery ago. posada is now a green light for opposing running games.

    and to bring up last year? the yanks lost about 30 starts between wang and joba, and giese and rasner were rotation reg’s, and they STILL won 89 games w/o posada.

    take away cc and aj, and replace them with rasner and giese and see how far posada takes the yankees this year.

  157. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    “No talk from diet coke on Andy struggling? ”

    He never saw it is my guess. :?

  158. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    I’m thinking that Pete chose his topic because this is an off day for the Yankees and Arod is no longer a lightning rod.

    Good job Pete!

    ;)

  159. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    In what world was Chuck Knoblauch the most valuable Yankee 2nd baseman since Bobby Richardson? I sort of preferred Willie Randolph. You must be a ’98er.

  160. rconn23 June 15th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    As I’ve said before, the beauty of the “Great Posada Debate”

    is there is no debate. It’s obvious to anyone who watches and studies the game that Posada is the better all around catcher.

    So Jorge Posada is the only greact catcher who has ever been hard headed and argued with pitchers. Uh, Thurman Munson anybody?

    Roger Clemens, even with the steroids cloud, is one of the greatest pitchers of all time. He lauded Posada’s game calling skills.

    And Posada was the primary singal caller on two World Series teams.

    And the only year the Yankees didn’t make the playoffs was 2008 – when Posada was out for the majority of the season.

    Posada is a borderline Hall of Fame catcher. Period.

    Take a poll around baseball and see who is more respected, A.J. Burnett or Jorge Posada. Should be pretty easy answer. It’s Posada.

    A.J. Burnett can’t consistently locate his pitches, It’s been a huge problem his entire career, along with his inability to stay healthy.

    Does Jorge Posada set up his mitt six inches out of the strike zone so A.J. can throw it there? Of course not, that’s just silly.

    I know some people on this blog have a love affair with Burnett, because they are under the crazy assumption that he is an ace. He is not, nor has he ever been. The stats bear that out.

    And his wildness just didn’t just start when Posada started catching him.

    If Burnett has some sort of issue throwing to Posada, that’s Burnett’s problem. He only throws two pitches – fastball and curve – how hard can that be to get on the same page with your catcher?

    It’s a dumb argument against Posada, it really is.

    As CB pointed out earlier, basing ERA with with a a certain catcher is a faulty premise, not taking into account a host of other factors.

    Posada is the starting catcher, and barring injury, he will continue to be. Get over it. Because there is nothing you can do about it.

  161. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    Thank you SJ for providing sanity.

  162. dave June 15th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    “If you assume, like everybody else, that Wang is pitching bad on his own w/o any help from the catchers, then you have to back out those three starts. All of a sudden, Posada and Cervelli are real close in their catcher’s ERA.”

    Cervelli’s numbers are also skewed by Wang – he caught him twice I believe, including his “best” (or, I suppose, least atrocious) start of the season.

  163. Doreen - Been to the New Stadium June 15th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    Trisha,

    I think if they didn’t have Matsui, it is possible Posada would see a little bit more time as DH.

    But basically, you want your best offense on the field as much as possible and Matsui still figures into that, though it seems (and I stress SEEMS) less so this year. SEEMS more streaky than usual, so far.

    But I have to say, this topic is getting played out for me. People seem to dig in (not all people, to be sure). I just think it’s fantastic that when Jorge gets a day off, the Yankees do not suffer at all defensively and not as much as they have in the past (Sal Fasano) offensively.

  164. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    I know I’m in late, but to correct something Ghost said earlier, Posada was the main catcher in 1998 and 1999:

    1998 Posada 111 games, Girardi 78 games
    1999 Posada 112 games, Girardi 65 games

    ======================

    I said he shared 1/3 of the catching time with Girardi those two seasons. I also qualified my comment by saying it was nitpicking but a “regular” catcher in my mind is one who catching 130+ games per year. Anything less he’s sharing duty.

  165. Joekuh - Wang Pitches. Fastball. Strike 1. 0-1 count. June 15th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    SJ, sports blogs are BUILT on blind scapegoating. Look @ the number of posters you see come here ONLY after a yankees loss, to scapegoat whatever reason is cliche that particular day.

  166. The Other Phil June 15th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    One of the few reasons I am glad I moved from NY is that I don’t have to hear the nonsense coming from Francesa’s ridiculous mouth. The team clubbed the Mets silly, AJ had a good start, Bruney is coming back so what does he do? Find someone to bag on because he has no ability to carry a show with intelligent, thoughtful baseball discussion.

  167. Joe I June 15th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    “No talk from diet coke on Andy struggling?”

    Andy and Bernie Williams could kill somebody in CF at Yankee Stadium during a nationally televised game, and diet coke won’t say anything. But god forbid Joba starts that game and pumps his fist. It’s a years worth of shows.

  168. Trevor June 15th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    There will be no Andy Pettitte talk. He’s going to get on Joba probably after the break.
    He said Joba was an “embarrassment” Friday.

  169. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    Listening to Francessa, which is bound to be entertaining today, he’s right about Bruney…can’t wait until the Mets fans start calling in.

  170. randy l. June 15th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    “And last but not least, my father always taught is that there are (at least) three sides to every story: mine, yours, and the truth. I believe that the reality to this story lies somewhere in the middle.”

    doreen-

    i think some theories are so off the charts wrong that they are not worth the time it takes to read and respond to them.

    taking an extreme position that posada has suddenly gone bad because of some skewed small sample stats is silly when you look at his whole body of work.

  171. room for opinion June 15th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    I hope AJ got his mojo back,pretty much like jerk face Penny must have felt beating CC.

    When you knock out an ace early in a game,you da man,baby!!

  172. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    There might actually be a larger number of pitchers who don’t want to throw to Jorge than there are with most catchers. That’s because most catchers aren’t nearly as good as Jorge and don’t last nearly as long as he has.

    Quick, name the pitchers who didn’t like throwing to Don Slaught?

  173. pat June 15th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    Personal catchers are dangerous in season but even scarier postseason.

    Posada is going to be catching any games played in October so the pitchers and him are best to get on the same page now.

  174. dave June 15th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    “To suggest that Posada “hurts” this team behind the plate is laughable. It really is.

    Its just blind scapegoating and nothing more.”

    Blind scapegoating, actually looking at the data…. tomato, tomatoe in your world I guess.

    Posada is not a HOF’er because of anything he has done behind the plate. He is a HOF’er because of his hitting from that position and because of the teams he played on. He is largely considered, and has always been considered, an average (at best) defense catcher. This is nothing knew, stop re-writing history.

    And if “Roger Clemens liked to throw to him” is your benchmark for how good of a receiver he is then I am afraid we have different standards.

  175. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    “As for Joba I’ll get to him” – Fatcessa

    Again nothing about Andy.

  176. Joe I June 15th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    “In what world was Chuck Knoblauch the most valuable Yankee 2nd baseman since Bobby Richardson? I sort of preferred Willie Randolph. You must be a ‘98er.”

    GB, you’re selling Wayne Tolleson short.

  177. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    GB7 – Randolph played in 2 WS and won 1 WS, Knoblauch played in 4 and won 3. Ergo, Knoblauch more valuable in my opinion. Oh, before you say Randolph had 2 may I remind you of’78 WS MVP Brian Doyle.

  178. pat June 15th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    “Quick, name the pitchers who didn’t like throwing to Don Slaught?”

    Clemens, Pettitte and Rivera? :wink:

  179. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    Actually Knoblauch as 4 rings but I’m only talking about rings as a Yankee player

  180. Stultus Magnus...doesn't want to storm the moat when they are comping tix to charities. June 15th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    I admit I am wrong left and right, almost to a fault. See, I just admitted I was wrong by saying I admit being wrong too much. Man, I always do that.

    But I don’t mean to upset, it was just a joke. You seem fairly set in your ways too. I just think that comment was gonna fall on deaf ears here and then I made a joke.

  181. The Other Phil June 15th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    Honestly, why does anyone listen to Francesa? For any of you complaining about him, you’re also giving him ratings and making him relevant. He’s a moron that doesn’t understand baseball and just likes to spew negative carp, just for callers and ratings. Don’t listen, his ratings fall, he goes away. That’s how it works.

  182. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    dave, you’re right-”Brown and Burnett” don’t like to throw to him proves he can’t call games, but HOF’ers Clemens, Rivera, and borderliner Pettite do like throwing to him but that’s not good enough for you.

  183. Doreen - Been to the New Stadium June 15th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    randy l -

    I’m not responsible for the quote you posted. I haven’t taken any real position in the Posada debate (I have a personal opinion but have mostly refrained from posting it here) because it would serve no purpose and change no one’s mind.

    :)

  184. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    Phil, are you kidding? You don’t get more entertaining than Francessa, especially after a weekend like we just had!

  185. rconn23 June 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    “And if “Roger Clemens liked to throw to him” is your benchmark for how good of a receiver he is then I am afraid we have different standards”

    Roger Clemens is one of the greatest pitchers of all time. Seems like a pretty great benchmark to me.

  186. Joe I June 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    “Randolph played in 2 WS and won 1 WS, Knoblauch played in 4 and won 3. Ergo, Knoblauch more valuable in my opinion. Oh, before you say Randolph had 2 may I remind you of’78 WS MVP Brian Doyle.”

    Knoblauch didn’t play 1 game at 2b in the 2000 World Series. Vizcaino and Sojo played at 2b. He was the DH and PH in that series.

  187. S.A.--Let's get ready to rumble! June 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Honestly, why does anyone listen to Francesa? For any of you complaining about him, you’re also giving him ratings and making him relevant. He’s a moron that doesn’t understand baseball and just likes to spew negative carp, just for callers and ratings. Don’t listen, his ratings fall, he goes away. That’s how it works.

    ========================================

    I listen to laugh at him. He is so ridiculous, you just have to giggle.
    Also to find what out what simple words he can’t pronounce properly. :D

  188. Tommy H June 15th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    also, andy pettitte did not want to throw to posada in 98-99…he threw almost exclusively to girardi

  189. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    Trisha: DutchHugo, you have just set up the classic Catch22! “When people point to stats, those are roundly rejected. When people say they observe it in the way Posada calls for certain pitches, that is rejected. Is it possible that Brandon is right on the money and your opinion to the contrary is just that – and we all know what opinions are like! Just pointing out that if you set up a Catch22, then you have put someone in checkmate before the match even begins. If that’s your intent, well then I guess that’s fine.”

    Trisha — all of our opinions are just that. I include myself. There are some things that are provable by stats, or by observation by fans on a board. Say, for instance, if someone is loafing. We can see that and judge it for ourselves. What I have a problem with is people getting on here and stating, as if it’s fact, stuff that they have no idea about. You said it yourself: “when people observe it in the way Posada calls certain pitches”…. Everyone observes things differently. We all bring in our own points of view and beliefs into the way we observe something. But none of US know for sure if it’s the pitches being called, or the location or execution of the pitches that’s to blame. Don’t you think that Girardi, Pettitte, Mariano Rivera, Roger Clemens, David Wells, etc., etc., etc., know a little bit more about Posada’s skills and game-calling ability than, say, a bunch of people on this board? And I include myself. We. Don’t. Know.
    They. Do.

  190. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    For those who don’t like the new stadium I think that if it wasn’t such a HR haven then we would have lost a few more games then we have now…one comes to mind, the A-Rod game tier vs. Philly…

  191. Clay Buchholz Loves Laptops - Latest blog entry: An interview with Bill Gallo June 15th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Is anyone familiar with the Atlanta area? I’m going to Atlanta for the Yankees vs. Braves series and I need a restaurant recommendation.

    Thanks.

  192. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Point taken Joe, you can take on ring away from Knobbie if you’d like but that was well into his yips episodes by then. I know there is a lot of hate in Yankeeland for Knoblauch and i know my favoring him over Randolph is controversial (for the record I’m 41 years old and started watching the Yanks in ’74) but I really loved all the little unsung things he would do to win a game. I loved Randolph too but just not as much as Knoblauch. He was my favorite player ever since that awesome deek of Lonnie Smith that saved the game in the ’91 WS.

  193. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    Tommy H, Andy says himself that he likes throwing to Jorge.

  194. nettles June 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    In what world was Chuck Knoblauch the most valuable Yankee 2nd baseman since Bobby Richardson? I sort of preferred Willie Randolph. You must be a ‘98er.

    That’s what I was thinking too. Chuck was good, until he melted down. But Willie is the best Yankee 2nd baseman of my lifetime. Cano, though, will likely take over that mantle by the time his career is done.

  195. Bronx Jeers June 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    A few points.

    1. Some of the pitchers that preferred other catchers were pretty stubborn themselves I.E. Moose, Unit.

    2. Teams are definitely running on Jorge. Close to 2 attempts a game. Most likely that is tops in the Majors.

    3. Jorge is throwing them out a decent rate. .320% or close to it. His career avg. is below .290%

    I think teams will slow down a bit as legs begin to wear down.

    Jorge’s OPS+ is 144 this season.

    You want to see a catcher who is toast? Go look up Captain Steubing’s numbers.

  196. jpb1973 June 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    “That’s where NYY and Shelley Duncan screwed up, not learning to catch. He had a home grown catching instructor growing up. His dad, Dave was a pretty good defensive catcher in his day.”

    Duncan’s too big to be a catcher.

    —————————————————–

    Why do you say that? Carlton Fisk is in the Hall of Fame and he was bigger than Duncan.

  197. rconn23 June 15th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    Dave,

    You are cherrypicking “stats” of not even a half season and ignoring 12 years of a great career. Again, Jorge Posada caught staffs on two World Series teams.

    He didn’t suddenly forget how to catch.

    And that stat you’re using is faulty. You can’t use pitcher ERA with a catcher as a reliable statistic.

    It doesn’t take into account ballpark, lineups and a host of other factors.

    It’s such a ridiculous argument. It really is.

  198. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    for yankees fans
    June 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
    pete, u r the one who preached that the yankees would win this year with ‘’run PREVENTION.’’

    Simple question; are the yanks as good a defensive team when posada catches as they r when molina or cervelli does?

    u’d have to be biased to answer yes.

    those three world series were 8 1/2 years and a very serious arm inury and surgery ago. ***posada is now a green light for opposing running games***

    and to bring up last year? the yanks lost about 30 starts between wang and joba, and giese and rasner were rotation reg’s, and they STILL won 89 games w/o posada.

    take away cc and aj, and replace them with rasner and giese and see how far posada takes the yankees this year.

    ————————————————————

    A green light to run? Put the blame where it belongs….on pitchers that can’t hold runners. Posada is throwing out 31%. Varitek is throwing out 19% this year.

  199. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    Brandon: Georgy is ok calling games, Molina and Cisco are better.

    Me: And you know this based on….. what?”

    Brandon: What we see.

    So you are saying that somehow YOU see stuff that Girardi, Pettitte, Mariano, etc., etc., etc. don’t. That your knowledge and judgment of the situation is better than theirs. And we should just trust you because, after all, you DO know how to post stuff on a fan board.

  200. Joe I June 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    “A green light to run? Put the blame where it belongs….on pitchers that can’t hold runners. Posada is throwing out 31%. Varitek is throwing out 19% this year.”

    GB, well, there goes your chance to ever work at ESPN.
    1. You used facts.
    2. You pointed out something where Posada is better than Varitek
    3. Most importantly, you’re a Yankees fan.

  201. GET REAL June 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    There comes a time when a catcher simply isn’t what he used to be and that time is now for Posada. The only place he is better is at the plate. Molina and Cervelli are both better catchers. They call a game, catch and throw runners out. I’ll take all three of those over a guy who can hit an occasional homerun.

    Posada has always dropped balls that hit him right in the glove and now he isn’t even close to throwing runners out. Maybe he should catch three of the five starting pitchers from now on.

  202. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    Clay Bucholtz: Atlanta has a million restaurants, it’s a big city. If you want good BBQ for a good price, I recommend Daddy Dz. Not within close walking distance of the ballbark, but not all that far either.

  203. Level 7 June 15th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    Andy has registered 1 quality start in his last 8 games.

    But yeah… let’s pile on Joba for one bad game. Nevermind he has been our 2nd most consistent pitcher this year behind CC (more of an indictment on the rest of the rotation, but still)

  204. islesfan June 15th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    Nobody questions what Posada has meant to this team in the past. But isn’t it possible that with getting older and suffering a major injury to his throwing arm, Posada just might be calling games to give him a better chance to keep guys from running even more on him? It’s obvious to all of us that Posada hasn’t been very good throwing runners out since he got back from injury. He wouldn’t be the first aging catcher to start calling for more fastballs and fewer low breaking pitches that he’d be forced to use his mobility to block.

    Ivan Rodriguez was one of the top 3 defensive catchers of all time but towards the end of his career, you heard how pitchers on his team weren’t happy to have him catching them because of his declining ability and dependence on their throwing fastballs to help throw out potential base stealers. This isn’t as much a knock on Posada as it is a nod to inevitable decline.

    Because of that, the Yankees would be very wise to keep Cervelli as a third catcher and let their pitchers throw to who they want to, especially when there’s evidence to prove that they have more success throwing to a certain catcher. If Burnett or Wang are going to be more consistent and successful with Cervelli or Molina, why wouldn’t you want them working with them?

  205. Tommy H June 15th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    Wait til they come to our house- what do you expect him to say, that he doesn’t like throwing to Jorge? The last year there was a real backup catcher who was worthy of serious playing time was 1999, right? Check out the numbers for 1998 and 1999 below. Also, I am for Jorge playing, the offense is needed from the catcher spot- just trying to be objective here and I think there are some issues with Jorge behind the plate-

    http://www.members.tripod.com/.....scatch.htm

  206. Don June 15th, 2009 at 1:37 pm

    Dunn has 20 walks in 39 innings

    Has to cut that down. His 52 Ks and 1 HR allowed are nice though.

  207. Mo June 15th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Although I love your blog Pete…you’re dead wrong about Posada being the everyday catcher for 3 championships.

    Go back and look it up Pete. Only in 2000 did Posada start more than half the game behind the plate in the playoffs.

    In 1998 and 99 he caught the majority of the games during the season, but when it counted, Torre had enough sense to sit him.

    All you have to do is go look at Posada’s CERA [catcher ERA] and you’ll see…he’s terrible. He doesn’t frame pitches. He loses strikes. He’s got a great bat, and should be the primary DH and second catcher, but a starting catcher for the Yankees? No way.

    Game calling is a joke. It is impossible to determine because the catcher has nearly no impact on how well the pitcher actually releases the pitch. However, he lacks the ability to frame pitches. This is his biggest flaw defensively. The difference between a 2-1 count and a 1-2 count is huge. When it’s done 10 times a game, it’s the difference between a win and a loss.

    The pitchers get knocked out early, the bullpen gets tired…the effective is cumulative. Pitchers live on the corners today, and Posada doesn’t get those calls. His defensive liability overshadows his offensive contributions. Anyone who doesn’t see this just doesn’t understand the game.

  208. GC June 15th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    get with the program Pete.

    Posada is a terrible catcher… notice his return brought stupid play back to NY after a long error-less streak.

    Brutal with the pitchers, defense, predictable, etc.

    Unfortunately we grossly overpaid him to DH when we have 3 other DHs on the team (Matsui, Damon, Swisher), so he is our “catcher”.

  209. randy l. June 15th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    doreen -
    sorry about that. i saw your name and mistakenly thought it was you.

    there’s been a few times when i ‘ve had a strong opinion about something when cb and sj44 both have been in opposition to my position.

    when that happened i know i took a long look at my position because of the respect i have for their baseball IQ.

    i’d suggest for the folks who find themselves on the other side of this issue from them to take a long look at their position.

  210. The Monarch June 15th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    It’s funny to me how anyone can comment on Posada’s gamecalling. How does anyone know why a particular pitch is thrown in a particular situation? Maybe the pitcher doesn’t have his “A” game. Maybe they’re trying to break up patterns.

    As for pitchers not wanting to throw to Posada, let’s not forget that Pettitte preferred pitching to Leyritz in ’96. Is anyone going to seriously argue that Leyritz was a better game caller than Girardi?

    I like both Molina and Cervelli defensively. But Posada is, and should be for the foreseeable future, the starting catcher for the New York Yankees.

  211. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    Imagine the 85 Yankees if you put Jorge Posada on that team instead of Butch Wynegar or Ron Hassey. :(

    Bronx Jeers, good comment and good to see you here.

  212. pat June 15th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    AJ’s appeal postponed until June 30th.

  213. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    I think that Matty Nokes was the best catcher in Yankee history since Jake Gibbs.

  214. josh June 15th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    the numbers don’t lie

  215. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    Jorge is up there w/best catcher in Yankee history not named Yogi Berra or Bill Dickey.

    He’s pretty close to Thurman in my mind.

  216. m June 15th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    lol. I sleep in and we’re talking my favorite topic. ;)

    Jorge has a good bat. Jorge’s a great leader. No one can replace Jorge. That we all can agree on.

    I’m not calling for Jorge to be replaced. Just asking that people acknowledge that what a catcher does behind the plate is important, too. And what may seem insignificant to the casual fan, may be very important to the pitchers.

    And I’m with Carl. Jorge’s absence was huge, but the main reason we missed the playoffs because Wang & Joba missed significant time with injuries.

  217. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Wouldn’t it be great if when Jeet and Jorge rtired Jorge became manager and Jeter bench/hitting coach? Or even vice versa?

  218. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Followed closely by John Ellis, Jerry Narron, Joel Skinner, Brad Gulden and Bob Geren. The Yanks just never gave them a chance.

  219. Doreen - Been to the New Stadium June 15th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    Randy l -

    That’s okay. I just don’t want to be considered an extremist. :lol:

    I usually enjoy a lot of the debates here. This one, though, just feels different to me.

    As I said before, the Yankees are lucky to have two backup catchers that do a good job.

  220. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    Ron Hassey is responsible for my favorite memory of the 80′s Yankees. Anyone remember that mammoth upper deck home run against Toronto to pull the Yanks within 1 GB in ’85. Man, they had a great team that year, if there was a wildcard back then the Yanks (and Mattingly :() would have definitely won the WS.

  221. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    m: everyone has acknowledged that what a catcher does behind the plate is important. Nobody has argued otherwise.

  222. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    josh
    June 15th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
    the numbers don’t lie

    ————————————————————

    Numbers are like kids. They’ll lie if you let them.

  223. Tommy H June 15th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    The argument for me isn’t that Posada shouldn’t play- I think he should play and over a long season his offense will certainly help a team more than his D hurts.

    However, in a short playoff series, is our best lineup Matsui at DH and Posada Catching or is it Molina/Cervelli catching and Posada DHing? Is Cervelli/Molina’s defensive upgrade bigger than the offensive upgrade from Molina/Cervelli to Matsui is the real question, and I think it’s fair to discuss-

  224. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    GC: “get with the program Pete.
    Posada is a terrible catcher… notice his return brought stupid play back to NY after a long error-less streak.”

    Yeah, Pete, get with the program! Or do you somehow think that the manager (who used to be a catcher), the pitchers, the coaching staff know more than a bunch of posters on a fan board?

    Posada is to blame for the fact that the Yankees won’t go the entire season without committing an error!
    Posada is to blame for Nick Swisher commmitting stupid baserunning blunders and misplaying fly balls!
    Posada is to blame when a pitcher makes a bad pitch!
    Posada is to blame for a lack of clutch hitting!
    Posada is to blame for the ballpark being a bandbox!
    Posada, Posada, Posada! Come on Pete, get with the program!

  225. m June 15th, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    Nick,

    Fine. But people continue to get nasty when Jorge is criticized or other catchers are lauded for their…gasp!…catching skills.

  226. josh June 15th, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    and by numbers don’t lie I am looking at this

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....ualified=0

    jorge is dead last in all of baseball

  227. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    “No one can replace Jorge. That we all can agree on.”

    That is also wrong. Jorge has been labelled a “huge problem” in this debate and some people do want him replaced. Wake up and smell the coffee!

  228. Doreen - Been to the New Stadium June 15th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    Numbers are neutral. It’s people who can manipulate numbers to support whichever position they want to. :)

    Also, bare numbers, without context, don’t really say much of anything, to me.

  229. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Hah, Josh! Jorge is SECOND last!

    Proves you wrong!

  230. Joe I June 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    “Ron Hassey is responsible for my favorite memory of the 80’s Yankees. Anyone remember that mammoth upper deck home run against Toronto to pull the Yanks within 1 GB in ‘85. Man, they had a great team that year, if there was a wildcard back then the Yanks (and Mattingly :() would have definitely won the WS.”

    One could make the argument that year would’ve been a subway series if the wild card existed. Both NY teams finished in 2nd place with over 95 wins. It was an amazing year because it was essentially the first time that both the Yankees and Mets were really good at the same time. Everyone would’ve loved to have seen Doc Gooden in 85 pitch to Mattingly and that Yankees lineup with Rickey, Donnie Baseball, Winfield, and Baylor.

  231. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    “GET REAL There comes a time when a catcher simply isn’t what he used to be and that time is now for Posada. The only place he is better is at the plate. Molina and Cervelli are both better catchers. They call a game, catch and throw runners out. I’ll take all three of those over a guy who can hit an occasional homerun. Posada has always dropped balls that hit him right in the glove and now he isn’t even close to throwing runners out.”

    Posada has a .319 caught stealing rate, which would place him 6th among starting catchers in MLB if he had enough games. Yes, Cervelli’s is better at .375, but in a much smaller sample size. Point is, you are pulling stuff out of your a** and trying to pass it off as pure fact to try and prove your point. Maybe it’s time for GET REAL to GET HIS FACTS STRAIGHT.

  232. BBFan June 15th, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    I do not know if Posada’s game calling is good or adequate or bad.

    But I do believe in one thing. Where there is smoke there is fire. If pitchers are questioning him and they do not like to pitch to him, he has a problem. He needs to find a way to correct it. It really does not matter what any one here thinks, including Pete. If the pitchers do not trust him, Po has a problem. It is a pity that some of these pithcers would like to pitch to a near noice like Cervalli and not very experienced Posada.

  233. m June 15th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    Doreen,

    Exactly. That’s why I said yesterday. Stats don’t tell the whole story. Watch with your eyes ;) and listen to what is being said by those in and around the club.

  234. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    “But people continue to get nasty when Jorge is criticized or other catchers are lauded for their…gasp!…catching skills.”

    Sorry, m, I don’t buy that. Can you cite any examples of regular commenters on here being nasty because someone else lauded one of the backups for their catching skills? Has this occured absent the context of the Posada-is-the-problem debate?

  235. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    “Stultus Magnus…doesn’t want to storm the moat when they are comping tix to charities.”

    :lol:

    Stultus, my bad. I hadn’t read all of your posts when I read the one to which I referred. Had I seen the earlier one I would have known you were joking.

    Anyway, we both know everything here being posted by the “experts” is nothing but drivel. It’s all about the eyes.

    ;)

    “Don’t you think that Girardi, Pettitte, Mariano Rivera, Roger Clemens, David Wells, etc., etc., etc., know a little bit more about Posada’s skills and game-calling ability than, say, a bunch of people on this board? And I include myself. We. Don’t. Know.
    They. Do.”

    Dutch, you are now singing my song. I will always defer to the Yankee organization over what I hear here, and I have always said so. Yesterday David Cone mentioned that AJ throws better with Cervelli as his catcher.

    Wait Til they Come – I wish you’d stop with one thing since you keep repeating it and posters here who heard the YES pregame reported on this (and I will see if I can track it down on the YES site.) YES reported yesterday that the reason Burnett was being paired with Cervelli was that he felt more comfortable with Cervelli catching. So stop saying that we have no proof. You might not think it should matter, you might not think a pitcher should have a preference, etc. But it doesn’t mean that Burnett has not stated a preference.

    Dutch, here’s another thing. This has caused a barnstorm of controversy here but I am with you about trusting the experts. There are people here who are saying that Joba is still a pup and should not be shaking off Posdada. Well during that game Al Leiter said unequivocally that he believes that a pitcher should throw the pitch he is 100% comfortable with even if it ends up being the wrong pitch rather than going with a pitch he is only 50% comfortable with. That happened when he kept shaking off Posada. I trust Leiter much more than I trust the posters here.

    Anyway, it’s all good. As long as the Yankees win I don’t care if they put lucky the squirrel behind the plate!

  236. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    To be fair to Francessa ripping Sterling, he was obviously stunned by the turn of events and wasn’t thinking about the word choice.

  237. josh June 15th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    Wait till they come to OUR house…the guy in last caught ONE INNING!!!

  238. Stultus Magnus...doesn't want to storm the moat when they are comping tix to charities. June 15th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    “jorge is dead last in all of baseball”

    then we should have kept Cash?

  239. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    *BRONX JEEERS – WHERE YOU BEEN?????*

    Welcome back! I was hating not seeing you around, especially when you are the one who christened “mesmerizing” to describe Cervelli’s eyes! I thought that was one of the funniest things I ever heard.

    :)

  240. AROD fan June 15th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    possibly post of the year!

    this jorge bad on defense thing obviously has nothing to do with performance and value but some psychological issue some fans have with what they perceive to be the proper role and character of the catcher and the drama of baseball. too many fans want to see people who look like they are silently busting their ass with no apparent reward. if they see something else they flip out and have to call francessa.

  241. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    All right trisha. I was not aware there was proof that A.J. liked pitching to Cervelli. But more of an indictment (if I’m using the word correctly) on A.J. than a knock on Posada.

  242. m June 15th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    Nick,

    You exhaust me. I give up, you win this round.

    See you guys later.

    Unfortunately, I have to help the girls go through a mountain of clothes.

  243. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    josh, either way. Either way.

    I was obviously joking anyway.

  244. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    m: it’s the merits, not the tenacity. Enjoy.

  245. Erica June 15th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    Wait till they come to OUR house
    June 15th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
    To be fair to Francessa ripping Sterling, he was obviously stunned by the turn of events and wasn’t thinking about the word choice.

    ****
    What was Sterling’s call???

  246. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    That this ridiculous discussion about Posada is still going on has left me shocked. SHOCKED!!!!

  247. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    ERica, he said in the dropped pop up that the Yankees had “overcome” and 8-7 defecit. Bad word choice, admittedly. But obviously he was shocked by what happened and wasn’t thinking about word choice.

  248. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Lowercase r in Erica.

  249. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    and is an.

  250. josh June 15th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    i heard some guy on wfan say that you can just stand in the lower deck and watch. I guess this is true. buy bleacher seats and stand in the concourse behind the last row of seats in the first deck. I may just do that for one of the nationals games

  251. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    “But I do believe in one thing. Where there is smoke there is fire. If pitchers are questioning him and they do not like to pitch to him, he has a problem. He needs to find a way to correct it. It really does not matter what any one here thinks, including Pete. If the pitchers do not trust him, Po has a problem.”

    BBFan, I absolutely agree.

    The ideal thing, of course, is for someone in the Yankee organization to figure it out and resolve it. Then we can all go whistling on our way.

  252. Bob(The Original) June 15th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    This whole Posada nonsense boggles my mind.

    I really think fans have been spoiled by him and don’t realize what a tremendous advantage he is to the team.

    You all act like he’s is the worst defensive catcher in baseball, which he is not.

    Getting that kind of offensive protection from the catcher spot leaves most teams in baseball drooling.

    The name of the game is scoring more runs than you give up. The stats prove that Molina, who I swear some of you must be related to, doesn’t even come close to saving anywhere near the number of runs he gives up with his bat.

    It is such a silly, and quite frankly, an ignorant argument.

  253. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    Yeah josh, I had a friend tell me that he just walked to right behind home plate and watched. Pretty cool.

  254. Erica June 15th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    Yes- the Yankees did not overcome anything in that game. In my opinion, that game wasn’t so much a Yankee win, but a giant Mets loss. Fortunately, the Yankees were on the opposite end.

  255. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    Burnett never said he preferred pitching to Cervelli over Posada. He complimented and praised him….like every almost every pitcher not named Mussina, Johnson or Brown, has done after they pitch a good game.

  256. charleston2 June 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    Maybe I’m just being naive, but someone above suggested that Posada is a “borderline HOFer” when he retires.

    I don’t know why, but I’ve always considered Posada a sure-fire HOFer, without doubt. His numbers as a catcher offensively are some of the best of all time and he’s won 3 world championships and has amassed some impressive statistics with a single team. He’s been the vocal leader of a dynasty.

    But more importantly, his statistics speak of consistency, especially on offense into the latter parts of a catching career. Considering how awful most catchers were during his career, he’s got to be in the HoF.

  257. Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules) June 15th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    All this Posada catching argument has much to do about nothing, the only thing i care about is if pitchers like to throw to Posada. There has been to many pitchers throughout Postdates career that have been rumored not to like to throw to him for it to be a fluke. Posada needs to change his relationship with the pitchers and make them want to throw to him.

  258. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    like every almost every pitcher not named Mussina, Johnson or Brown, has done ***with their catcher*** after they pitch a good game.

  259. GET REAL June 15th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    Dutch, you are clueless.. He doesn’t out hit Cervelli enough to make him a better catcher. If Cervelli batted .260 I’d take him over Posada. It’s not just about throwing runners out. How many times do you see him drop a ball that hits his glove?

  260. charleston2 June 15th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    4. sorry, 4 world championships

  261. Mark in Tampa June 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    This discussion with ardent defenders of Jorge and those who want to blame him for everything that has gone wrong leads me to one undeniable conclusion:

    Jorge was a good catcher, but the arrival of Arod in ’04 turned him into the worst defensive catcher in baseball. As with everything Yankee, if you can’t find the real answer, it is of course Arod’s fault. :D

  262. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    Erica, you’re right. Asolutely. But that was my favorite non WS Subway series game ever.

    charleston2, that was me who called him a borderlline HOOF’er. I hope he gets in, but I think that he’ll lose out a bit because he lost some playing time early in his career to Girardi.

  263. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    “Burnett never said he preferred pitching to Cervelli over Posada. He complimented and praised him….like every almost every pitcher not named Mussina, Johnson or Brown, has done after they pitch a good game.”

    Unless you are saying that the posters who said it was reported on the YES pregame that the reason they were being paired yesterday was that Burnett preferred pitching with Cervelli catching are mistaken or got it wrong, then you are wrong.

  264. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    GET REAL, I never say this but that comment was ridiculously stupid, even comical.

  265. Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules) June 15th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    Does Francesca watch yankee games!

  266. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    trisha – OPPC lifetime member
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
    “Burnett never said he preferred pitching to Cervelli over Posada. He complimented and praised him….like every almost every pitcher not named Mussina, Johnson or Brown, has done after they pitch a good game.”

    Unless you are saying that the posters who said it was reported on the YES pregame that the reason they were being paired yesterday was that Burnett preferred pitching with Cervelli catching are mistaken or got it wrong, then you are wrong.

    ————————————————————

    Like usual, that was another Jones try at “developing a story”. She’s become a female Francessa, and, that’s no compliment.

  267. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    Original Bob, you’re right, it is a mind-boggling debate.

    Ultimately, I think it can be best explained by reading Richard Hofstadter’s landmark essay “The Paranoid Style in LoHud Commenting”.

  268. Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules) June 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    trisha – OPPC lifetime member
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
    “Burnett never said he preferred pitching to Cervelli over Posada. He complimented and praised him….like every almost every pitcher not named Mussina, Johnson or Brown, has done after they pitch a good game.”

    Unless you are saying that the posters who said it was reported on the YES pregame that the reason they were being paired yesterday was that Burnett preferred pitching with Cervelli catching are mistaken or got it wrong, then you are wrong.
    ——————————————————————————————
    Like usual, that was another Jones try at “developing a story”. She’s become a female Francessa, and, that’s no compliment.
    _______

    Posada has had a lot of pitchers that did not want to throw to him. THAT’S NOT A FLUKE

  269. Patrick June 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    “Is Cervelli/Molina’s defensive upgrade bigger than the offensive upgrade from Molina/Cervelli to Matsui?”

    Nope

  270. vin June 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    Interesting Bryce Harper news:

    http://www.lasvegassun.com/new.....two-years/

  271. Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules) June 15th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    Fat boy giving Tex no credit for running, if it was the elf that ran hard he would of been saying “what a player”

  272. stuart June 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    as Ros Perot would say the Yanks have a high class problem.

    A veteran catcher who is a great hitter, a very good defensive backup who is hurt and in the last year of his deal and a 23 year old kid who so far looks pretty good.

    Molina will not be back next year, he will be a year older, and coming off a injury again. Cervelli so far so good, but the sample size is very very small and besides cervellis they have 2 stud youn cathcer prospects who are about 2 years away named romine and montero.. will they or cervelli turn into the real deal? who knows but they have 3 legit prospects.

    on the pitcher front and dealing with jorge. pitchers are wierd dudes and the yankee staff is so wild it is disturbing and has killed the team so far thsi year. the staff is 27th in ERA in baseball. no one except CC has pitched in the neighborhood of what they should be pitching. I have some real sophisticated advice for the likes of burnett, joba, veras, wang, and others.. throw strikes………..

    talk all you want about the lineup and there inability to hit for avg. with RISP which is a legit problem but not catastrophic but at the end of the day there pitching ineffectivness is the issue that is hindering this team from becoming an elite elite team..

    DFA tomko tuesday add bruney and that will help but again they need to thrwo strikes, the yanks are very high in K’ but the walks and HR’s have killed them. In this park walking runners with the propensity for HR’s will kill this team.. If they could reduce there walk rate 25% then everything changes immediately……..
    j

  273. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    The best call on the popup is in my opinion Michael Kay’s.

  274. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    I did not hear the pregame myself so I cannot comment on it. I just remember posters saying that YES reported that the reason Cervelli was catching was the Burnett preferred to pitch with Cervelli catching. I think Jones can be extremely vacuous with her questions but I have never found her to make things up – seriously. In any event, it behooves the Yankee organization to get it figured out if there is a problem and resolve it, or in the alternative to allow certain pitchers to have other than Posada as their catcher. Whatever wins games is what I am down with.

  275. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    “The best call on the popup is in my opinion Michael Kay’s.”

    Me too!

  276. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules)
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
    trisha – OPPC lifetime member
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
    “Burnett never said he preferred pitching to Cervelli over Posada. He complimented and praised him….like every almost every pitcher not named Mussina, Johnson or Brown, has done after they pitch a good game.”

    Unless you are saying that the posters who said it was reported on the YES pregame that the reason they were being paired yesterday was that Burnett preferred pitching with Cervelli catching are mistaken or got it wrong, then you are wrong.
    ——————————————————————————————
    Like usual, that was another Jones try at “developing a story”. She’s become a female Francessa, and, that’s no compliment.
    _

    Posada has had a lot of pitchers that did not want to throw to him. THAT’S NOT A FLUKE

    ————————————————————

    Posada’s job is to try babysitting pitchers through rough spots. If being nice to them doesn’t work, his job is to kick ‘em in the azs. That’s what they don’t like. Too bad….do your job.

  277. Bronx Jeers June 15th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Thanks for recognizing my absence Nick & Trisha.

    I was on vacation and my computer got stolen and I’ve been busy etc. etc. yada-yada-yada.

    Now that I think of it, the street that I stayed on was called Posadas street. Odd?

  278. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    trisha – OPPC lifetime member
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
    I did not hear the pregame myself so I cannot comment on it. I just remember posters saying that YES reported that the reason Cervelli was catching was the Burnett preferred to pitch with Cervelli catching. I think Jones can be extremely vacuous with her questions but I have never found her to make things up – seriously. In any event, it behooves the Yankee organization to get it figured out if there is a problem and resolve it, or in the alternative to allow certain pitchers to have other than Posada as their catcher. Whatever wins games is what I am down with.

    ————————————————————

    Posters are like those playing “Pass The Message”. What was said is never the same as what’s posted.

  279. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    Can’t believe Francessa hasn’t played Kay’s call yet.

    That was beautiful. I was flipping between that and the Philly game when I flipped in time to see A-Rod pop up. I paced out of the room muttering to myself about the stupid Yankees when I heard Kay yelling. I ran into the room and yelled, despite no one being around to hear me, “He dropped the ball! He dropped the ball” and jumped several times into the air. Classic.

  280. Bob(The Original) June 15th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    A good pitcher can and should pitch well no matter who is behind the plate.

    They may like certain guys better for any number of reasons, but it is not something that should hinder their ability to pitch.

    My God, this is stupid.

    Please Pete, an A-Rod thread would be better than this misguided nonsense people are spewing about Posada..

  281. Pat M. June 15th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    I cannot believe that this subject is still in today’s LoHud comic section….Man, some people just don’t get it……Hey,if you know the game, and you watch the game, then you will understand what’s going on during the game……Unreal…..

  282. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    Meanwhile on TV right now is a commercial for tonight’s Yankkes classic where Posada of all people got a walk off hit.

  283. rmel June 15th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    “Can’t believe Francessa hasn’t played Kay’s call yet.

    That was beautiful. I was flipping between that and the Philly game when I flipped in time to see A-Rod pop up. I paced out of the room muttering to myself about the stupid Yankees when I heard Kay yelling. I ran into the room and yelled, despite no one being around to hear me, “He dropped the ball! He dropped the ball” and jumped several times into the air. Classic.”

    Mike hates Kay with a passion no way he plays it

  284. Stultus Magnus...doesn't want to storm the moat when they are comping tix to charities. June 15th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    “I really think fans have been spoiled by him and don’t realize what a tremendous advantage he is to the team.”

    AGREED. When he’s gone and dreamy eyes is hitting .225/.248/.329, we are coming back for all the naysayers.

  285. Richie June 15th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    Molina is not as good as Cervelli. Send him packing or make him the 3rd catcher.

  286. Patrick June 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Seriously, enough is enough. Posada is the 2nd or 3rd best catcher in the MLB (offense + defense).

  287. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    “I cannot believe that this subject is still in today’s LoHud comic section….Man, some people just don’t get it……Hey,if you know the game, and you watch the game, then you will understand what’s going on during the game……Unreal…..”

    Pat M, will all due respect to Pete, take a look at the picture and the lead in. What else is there to generate discussion on a Yankee off day? Arod and Kate Hudson?

    And there you have it!

    ;)

  288. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Be thankful we’re not discussing Joba to the pen.

  289. Subway Squawkers June 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Of course Posada is the better hitter. Of course the lineup is better with him as catcher, and Matsui as DH, as opposed to Posada as DH, and Matsui out of the game.

    That being said, an awful lot of pitchers on this team seem to be disagreeing with Posada as of late. Joba and Jorge argued Friday, Alfredo Aceves shook him off three times on Saturday, CC Sabathia has only had him catch him one of three times since Posada got off the DL, and Burnett prefers other catchers to Posada:

    http://subwaysquawkers.blogspo.....favor.html

  290. Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    “AGREED. When he’s gone and dreamy eyes is hitting .225/.248/.329, we are coming back for all the naysayers.”

    Yup.

  291. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    Pat M.
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
    I cannot believe that this subject is still in today’s LoHud comic section….Man, some people just don’t get it……Hey,if you know the game, and you watch the game, then you will understand what’s going on during the game……Unreal…..

    ————————————————————

    It’s really sad, and, I’m ashamed of myself for being part of it.

    Just for the sake of curiosity, how many pitchers didn’t want to pitch to you because you weren’t willing to soothe their hurt feelings when you kicked ‘em in the behind for not focusing on their job?

  292. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Hey Subway Squawkers, you have a nice blog, I got to remember to check out the article on the dropped ball!

  293. Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules) June 15th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules)
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
    trisha – OPPC lifetime member
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
    “Burnett never said he preferred pitching to Cervelli over Posada. He complimented and praised him….like every almost every pitcher not named Mussina, Johnson or Brown, has done after they pitch a good game.”

    Unless you are saying that the posters who said it was reported on the YES pregame that the reason they were being paired yesterday was that Burnett preferred pitching with Cervelli catching are mistaken or got it wrong, then you are wrong.
    ——————————————————————————————
    Like usual, that was another Jones try at “developing a story”. She’s become a female Francessa, and, that’s no compliment.
    _

    Posada has had a lot of pitchers that did not want to throw to him. THAT’S NOT A FLUKE
    ——————————————————————————————
    Posada’s job is to try babysitting pitchers through rough spots. If being nice to them doesn’t work, his job is to kick ‘em in the azs. That’s what they don’t like. Too bad….do your job.
    ___________

    So you’re telling me me Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina some of the great pitchers in our era did not like Posada because he was mean to them give me a break, they didn’t like him because they didn’t like the ways he called games. I’m not bashing Posada his bat out ways whatever he gives defensively but when so many pitchers, so many good pitchers have had problems throwing to you there is a problem. How come all I hear is how Tek is a great game caller and how his pitchers love throwing to him and all I hear about Posada is how his starting pitchers have trouble throwing to him.THERE IS A REASON. Posada should be catching but he needs to have better relationship with the pitchers.

    Oh and the Pitchers and Dave I. Need to take some responsibly for our starting pitching not living up to expectation

  294. Stultus Magnus...doesn't want to storm the moat when they are comping tix to charities. June 15th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    “Molina is not as good as Cervelli. Send him packing or make him the 3rd catcher.”

    According to the almighty CERA stat, Molina is better.

    Then again, according to CERA, Cash is better than Molina.

    We are surely doomed.

  295. Patrick June 15th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    So now it’s Posada’s fault the pitching staff has stunk thus far. Last week it was Eiland’s fault. When are the pitchers responsible for their own failures?

  296. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    “AGREED. When he’s gone and dreamy eyes is hitting .225/.248/.329, we are coming back for all the naysayers.”

    Hey hey hey! Don’t paint with such a broad brush. Not everyone questioning Posada’s game calling are calling for his head and for Cervelli to be the king! Not now, anyway. There are a group of us who would be happy seeing Posada getting say 3 of 5 and not 4 of 5 games. I don’t see that as terribly unreasonable. (It would be great if the remaining 2 were Joba and Burnett. Just saying.)

    ;)

  297. Subway Squawkers June 15th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    Wait till, thanks very much for the compliment. My Met fan writing partner is still in a tizzy over that game! We had a very uncomfortable subway ride back after watching that game in person together.

  298. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    Patrick, you’re right.

  299. Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    “That being said, an awful lot of pitchers on this team seem to be disagreeing with Posada as of late. Joba and Jorge argued Friday, Alfredo Aceves shook him off three times on Saturday”

    I’m leaning towards trusting Posada’s knowledge of the hitters as a C who has been around for awhile over a couple rookies who haven’t been around the block.

  300. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    Yeah (would you be Lisa? I’m on the Posada article now), I can imagine. I found your blog as a link from Jane Heller’s.

  301. pat June 15th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    Sorry if this is too gossipy for some but….

    NY Post had pictures of Steve Swindal watching yesterdays game at Yankee Stadium with ex-wife Jennifer Steinbrenner and sources quoted as saying the 2 could be trying to reconcile.

    The fact that he was the heir apparent to George prior to the divorce will make it interesting to see if this was co-parents being cordial or if he might return to the Yankee management fold in some way.

  302. charleston2 June 15th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    Posada should be catching 3/5 and DHing 1/5, with Matsui DHing 4/5.

    Eventually, though, Matsui is going to need to play some Left Field so that our team can be better offensively. Put him there when a strikeout pitcher like CC, Joba, AJ is pitching and it won’t be as big of a deal.

    Either way, Damon will need to rest at some point and Swisher is probably going to be replaced by Nady.

  303. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    Ha ha, Francessa saying Joba’s start was “we-yod”.

  304. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    I like those ratios charleston2.

  305. Erica June 15th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    Wait till they come to OUR house
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
    Yeah (would you be Lisa? I’m on the Posada article now), I can imagine. I found your blog as a link from Jane Heller’s.

    ****
    Jane Heller has a blog???? I love her!!!! I have her She-Fan book at home. I could have written that book

  306. Stultus Magnus...doesn't want to storm the moat when they are comping tix to charities. June 15th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    “AGREED. When he’s gone and dreamy eyes is hitting .225/.248/.329, we are coming back for all the naysayers.”

    And after that, we’ll be coming after dreamy eyes.

    Hmmm, I quoted myself. I am not an egomaniac.

  307. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    MARK CAN’T TOUCH THIS — Since when did Clemens not prefer pitching to Posada? Clemens to this day sings Posada’s praises as a catcher.

  308. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    Yeah Erica. I love her blog, too funny. I think the blog came before the book, actually. Here’s a link: http://janeheller.mlblogs.com/

  309. Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules) June 15th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    MARK CAN’T TOUCH THIS—Since when did Clemens not prefer pitching to Posada? Clemens to this day sings Posada’s praises as a catcher.
    ________

    Its been widely rumored that Clemens did not like to throw to Posada

  310. CB June 15th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    “”I’m sick of it, man. It’s depressing around here. A 3–0 ballgame, I give up one run and leave guys on base, it’s like they expect us to mess up. And when we do, they chew us out. There is no positive, nothing around here for anybody.”

    That’s what AJ Burnett said about the Marlins in 2005. He was upset with how the team performed during his start and called out the entire organization for it afterwards.

    Burnett’s teammates and the organization were so unhappy with him that he was told to go home. He literally was literally booted off the team and this was in the middle of the Marlins still being in the pennant race.

    That’s how great a guy AJ Burnett has been in his career. That’s how generous a teammate and how unselfish he’s been.

    Burnett has up to now been the poster child of wasted talent for his generation. He’s driven his managers and pitching coaches crazy. He’s disgusted teammates.

    It’s been remarkable how he’s accomplished so little with so much god given talent. The best you can say for him is that he’s been wildly inconsistent. Even last year when he supposedly learned so much from Halladay he was awful in the first half of the season.

    He didn’t have a good season last year – he had a good second half. He was terrible the first half. But I suppose that was the Blue Jays catcher’s fault as well.

    It’s remarkable that people are trying to draw inferences about Posada based on how Burnett performs or what he says. Just amazing.

  311. Laura - All we are saying is give Wang a chance! June 15th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    I don’t buy this stuff that Francessa is saying about the old guard having more issues with Girardi. I think he’s making this stuff up. Those guys don’t look like they have a problem with him.

  312. Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules) June 15th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    I don’t buy this stuff that Francessa is saying about the old guard having more issues with Girardi. I think he’s making this stuff up. Those guys don’t look like they have a problem with him.
    ___________-

    Looks can be deceiving.

  313. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    Laura, I agree.

  314. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    Laura, I agree.

  315. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules)
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Posada’s job is to try babysitting pitchers through rough spots. If being nice to them doesn’t work, his job is to kick ‘em in the azs. That’s what they don’t like. Too bad….do your job.
    _

    So you’re telling me me Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina some of the great pitchers in our era did not like Posada because he was mean to them give me a break, they didn’t like him because they didn’t like the ways he called games. I’m not bashing Posada his bat out ways whatever he gives defensively but when so many pitchers, so many good pitchers have had problems throwing to you there is a problem. How come all I hear is how Tek is a great game caller and how his pitchers love throwing to him and all I hear about Posada is how his starting pitchers have trouble throwing to him.THERE IS A REASON. Posada should be catching but he needs to have better relationship with the pitchers.

    Oh and the Pitchers and Dave I. Need to take some responsibly for our starting pitching not living up to expectation

    ————————————————————

    Johnson, Brown and Mussina didn’t like anybody and the only thing they ever took responsibility for was good games….never taking the blame for screwing up.

    Posada and Clemens and Hernandez would get in screaming mayches, but, they always wanted him catching when they pitched. They loved having him giving them a kick and Posada wasn’t bashful about how he did it or where. They get mad with Posada until after the win.

  316. Stultus Magnus...doesn't want to storm the moat when they are comping tix to charities. June 15th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    “There are a group of us who would be happy seeing Posada getting say 3 of 5 and not 4 of 5 games.”

    Two things, 1) I’d like Cano never to see the 5th spot again, but I’m not getting what I want, and 2) since all the pitchers hate Posada, is 3 out of 5 games even reasonable to the team???? I’d hate being in Girardi’s shoes trying to placate the angry mob of pitchers.

    Maybe they can pick straws…shortest two get McDreamy McCatcherson.

    The rest gotta deal with it…

  317. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules)
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Posada’s job is to try babysitting pitchers through rough spots. If being nice to them doesn’t work, his job is to kick ‘em in the azs. That’s what they don’t like. Too bad….do your job.
    _

    So you’re telling me me Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina some of the great pitchers in our era did not like Posada because he was mean to them give me a break, they didn’t like him because they didn’t like the ways he called games. I’m not bashing Posada his bat out ways whatever he gives defensively but when so many pitchers, so many good pitchers have had problems throwing to you there is a problem. How come all I hear is how Tek is a great game caller and how his pitchers love throwing to him and all I hear about Posada is how his starting pitchers have trouble throwing to him.THERE IS A REASON. Posada should be catching but he needs to have better relationship with the pitchers.

    Oh and the Pitchers and Dave I. Need to take some responsibly for our starting pitching not living up to expectation

    ————————————————————

    Johnson, Brown and Mussina didn’t like anybody and the only thing they ever took responsibility for was good games….never taking the blame for screwing up.

    Posada and Clemens and Hernandez would get in screaming mayches, but, they always wanted him catching when they pitched. They loved having him giving them a kick and Posada wasn’t bashful about how he did it or where. They get mad with Posada until after the win.

  318. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    Laura, I agree.

  319. Pat M. June 15th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    How many times to you think Jorge Posada has squatted his rump behind the plate when David Ortiz up ??? Don’t you think he has a pretty good feel for how to get this guy out ??? So when a 23 year old kid starts shaking him off it’s a problem….Pitchers trust their catchers..You’ always have a few exceptions to that, however more the most part they go with him…..As a middle infielder I always got my cues from the catcher, that’s what their paid for and they’re back there to do most of the thinking on the field…..Some pitchers with a higher percieved intelligance, Maddox, Mussina like to be in charge, so there’s some conflict…….Jorge’s been around the block more than once, certainly more than Cervelli……

  320. Erica June 15th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    Wait till they come to OUR house -

    Thank you!! I definitely need to check it out later. I have been reading her books since I was in high school. I have read pretty much all of them. When she came out with She-Fan this year I was thrilled. I felt like I had so much in common with her and I couldn’t believe an author I liked that much was also a ginormous Yankee fan. I have so many of her books at home.

  321. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    “GET REAL: Dutch, you are clueless.. He doesn’t out hit Cervelli enough to make him a better catcher. If Cervelli batted .260 I’d take him over Posada. It’s not just about throwing runners out. How many times do you see him drop a ball that hits his glove?”

    So THAT’s what this is about for you? T?hat Posada sometimes drops a ball that’s in his glove?
    “He doesn’t outhit Cervelli enough to make him a better catcher”??? Really?

    Just a snippet from Posada’s hitting ability:

    “A .270 career hitter entering the 2007 season, Posada finished at .338, with 20 home runs, 90 RBIs, and career highs in hits (171) and doubles (42). He joined Iván Rodríguez as the only two catchers in MLB history to record at least 40 doubles in two separate seasons. He was 3rd in the AL in on-base percentage (.426), 4th in batting average, 6th in OPS (.970), and 8th in doubles and slugging percentage (.543). Posada batted .395 in September, and became the first Yankee catcher since Thurman Munson, in 1978, to finish among the top 10 AL batting leaders. His longest hitless streak was only 11 at-bats. Posada is the first catcher to hit .330 or better with a slugging percentage of at least .540 and an on-base percentage of at least .420 since Mike Piazza in 1996-97.” —

    this year he’s at .288-9-28, which projects out to 34 homers and 105 ribbies over the season, despite missing significant games with injury?

    Cervelli’s done well, but he has 62 at-bats IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER!

    And I’m clueless???

    Good God, if you’re an example of what it means to have a clue, then I’m happy to be clueless.

  322. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    Subway Squawkers – they are going to berate you! Then they will throttle you! And after that, they are going to kill you!!! The almighty of the forum do not like to be questioned. They will call you stupid, ridiculous, they will deride your post as being part of nonsense and a conspiracy, they will call you a moron.

    :D

    But some of us agree that there’s a problem and I am so happy to see you weigh in. God lord almighty, thanks for the column. At least those who will continue to deride the lesser of us who just don’t get it will now have to acknowledge the questions aren’t just being asked or noted here!

    Anyway, I will now go and read what you had to write.

    Thanks again.

  323. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    I’m with Laura on that one.

  324. pat June 15th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    Laura

    I’m not buying it either.

    Think the “old guard” would be happy with Girardi if he negated Jorge’s catching time?

  325. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    Oh yeah just don’t get it should have in quotes, obviously denoting that we do indeed get it, despite being spanked mightily for questioning.

    :)

  326. Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    “I don’t buy this stuff that Francessa is saying about the old guard having more issues with Girardi. I think he’s making this stuff up. Those guys don’t look like they have a problem with him.”

    What would it look like?

    Not saying whether it’s true or not true. I have no idea. I do know that none of the old guard has talked glowingly about him. Of the guys that have, you have Swisher, who’s last manager was Ozzie, and you have Teixeira, who would want the fanbase hear him say that the sky in New York is a better color blue than anyplace he’s ever been.

    That said, I don’t recall anyone saying anything bad about him either though, so who knows?

  327. Joe I June 15th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    “I’m with Laura on that one.”

    I never would have guessed that you were.

  328. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    Careful, CB, if you post something like that you run the risk of being accused of ‘hating’ Burnett; you were accused of “hating” Cervelli yesterday.

  329. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    pat
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
    Sorry if this is too gossipy for some but….

    NY Post had pictures of Steve Swindal watching yesterdays game at Yankee Stadium with ex-wife Jennifer Steinbrenner and sources quoted as saying the 2 could be trying to reconcile.

    The fact that he was the heir apparent to George prior to the divorce will make it interesting to see if this was co-parents being cordial or if he might return to the Yankee management fold in some way.

    ————————————————————

    LMAO. This is too Rona Barrettish for me.

  330. RayVT June 15th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    Posada is a great catcher. His arm is above average, but not great. He worked with Tony Pena a few years ago to help quicken his release and it helped immensely. His hitting is great for a catcher.

    What I find comical is this board inflating and deflating numbers and words to describe a Hall of Fame to be catcher. The quotes from pitchers who by and large are premadonas and so superstitous that they won’t step on a foul line, will eat the same meal before they pitch, repitiously touch themselves in a predetermined manner before each pitch are somehow credible sources. I haven’t found many pitchers who BTW were great all their lives until the pros perhaps would believe they were ever at fault for anything. A bad game and they will grumble. Either the dirt wasn’t right on the mound, or the Ump squeezed them, or the catcher didn’t give them the right target or pitch, or the sky was too blue. LOL! They always complain! Always! It is probably why MLB has a bullpen to put them in during games because the rest of the team didn’t want to hear their whinning!! I digress!

    If a pitcher has success by any measure, they want to repeat the condition. Any failure and they want change! Posada didn’t start as a catcher. He does a great job. Mussina who was about as approachable as a greased pig during gameday wanted a catcher he could dominate and control that would only work with him. Posada was not very controllable and didn’t placate to the pitchers egos. In fact he’d kick their behinds when needed. There aren’t many catcher that were great that you couldn’t at least mention Posada name in the conversation. None of the Molina’s will make it in that conversation. Neither will Cervelli. Hopefully, the Yanks will have Posada for a few more good productive years still. His hitting edge at C gives the Yanks a real edge on its competition.

    One more thing, there is no such thing as being too tall to be a catcher. LOL! In fact several years ago it was thought if you weren’t at least 6’2″ tall or more you were too small to be a great catcher.

  331. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    I don’t get what you mean by that Joe I.

    Wait, now I do. I posted twice the same message. Computer trouble.

  332. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    Srsly can he sub for Berroa ?

    http://web.minorleaguebaseball.....pid=501835

  333. Bob(The Original) June 15th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    Laura – All we are saying is give Wang a chance!
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
    I don’t buy this stuff that Francessa is saying about the old guard having more issues with Girardi. I think he’s making this stuff up. Those guys don’t look like they have a problem with him.

    ———————————-

    Again I’ll ask, why do you people listen to that fool?

    When do you think the last time he was in the Yanks clubhouse was?

    When do you think the last time he had a conversation with any of the players on the team was?

    The guy is an oaf. All he cares about is stirring up controversy so the dolts will keep listening to his show, driving his ratings, and making him money.

    Tthe team is 2 games out of first, in prime position for a playoff spot, and yet all you hear is negativity. Do some of you even actually enjoy the game of baseball, or do you just like the mind numbingly stupid media driven drama?

  334. CB June 15th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    “Francessa is saying about the old guard having more issues with Girardi.”

    Kind of like people here are arguing pitchers have an issue with Posada based on their own anecdotal observations?

    If you told Francessa that in fact the old guard isn’t having more issues with Girardi he’s just say you’re wrong because he’s “seen” it with it “his own eyes” that the old guard doesn’t respond to Girardi like they did to Torre.

  335. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    And, pat, please don’t tell anyone if they’re seen canoodling around town. I just had dinner.

  336. M&M June 15th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Look, if this was ’61, half of y’all would be dissin’ Maris, and ya know it’s true!

  337. rover June 15th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    Simply applying WAG’s theorem leads me to believe a great deal of the visits to the mound are more intended to prvent the catcher from being crossed up than anything else.

  338. Stultus Magnus...doesn't want to storm the moat when they are comping tix to charities. June 15th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    And Francessa would say that Maris and Mantle hate each other.

  339. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    I mean forget Mark DeRosa who the hell bats .579 w/ RISP 8O

  340. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    I sometimes wonder what this blog would’ve been like in 78′.

  341. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    Stultus – follow de bouncing ball.

    My point was only that not everyone criticizing Posada is calling for him to be dumped by the wayside, the way you indicated when you talked about the naysayers. Just so you know. And did I think that it would happen that Posada would get 3 out of 5 and not 4 out of 5? N. Again, just an illustration that you didn’t have it entirely correct when you referred to the naysayers as wanting Cervelli catching all the games.

    But you already knew that didn’t you, you little trouble maker!

    :)

  342. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    Trisha — yes, and if AJ feels more comfortable throwing to Cervelli, by all means, let him! And I agree that Joba should shake off if he feels he has to, sometimes. I also think that young pitchers should recognize that a catcher with 15 years (or whatever it is) of experience that Posada has, his world series-winning experience, etc., means he probably knows a little more about winning baseball than they do at this point in their careers. Hey, whatever works. On this issue, I trust Girardi’s judgment, and the judgment of the pitchers, catchers and coaching staff.

  343. pat June 15th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    Steve B

    The opinion can also be held that the team cares less about what the old guard thinks than they might have a few years ago.

    New blood, new dynamic, players who are going to be here long term are who management has more concern with.

  344. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    I just bought a magazine from August 61′ that had an article about the odds of either Maris or Mantle hitting 60…lol they gave Mantle the better chance.

  345. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    Of course Mantle DID get injured.

  346. Stultus Magnus...doesn't want to storm the moat when they are comping tix to charities. June 15th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    The old guard and new guard should meet under the O’Neill banner and settle this once and for all.

  347. Wave Your Hat June 15th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    For those of you who believe Posada’s allegedly poor game-calling skills argue for starting Cervelli or Molina or some other allegedly good game-calling catcher over Posada, I suggest reading “Is Mike Matheny a Catching Genius” in a book called “Baseball Between the Numbers.

    The chapter examines the potential contribution of a purportedly “good” game-calling catcher compared to a purportedly “bad” game-calling catcher.

    It reviews the analytical studies which have been made of the issue, including one from Baseball Prospectus 1999 (and follow-ups to it) which examined every plate appearance for every pitcher-catcher battery (which had over a requisite number of innings) over a seventeen year period and compared how the pitcher did with a given catcher as opposed to all other catchers on the team.

    It conducted its own analytical study in which it identified 3,361 instances where a pitcher worked with two different catchers for at least 100 plate appearances on the same team in the same season.

    Their conclusion:

    “There is no objective evidence that the catchers considered to be best at their craft actually improve pitcher efficiency, increase strike rates, induce more misses and fouls, or do anything else to reduce batter’s offensive output. If…the best game-callers are having some effect that statistics can’t measure, we still have to ask how much offensive production a team could responsibly give up to obtain such an undetectable improvement.”

    OK, for those of you who say the game-calling doubters have no argument other than “that’s nonsense”, I believe the burden of proof is back on you.

  348. Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    “The opinion can also be held that the team cares less about what the old guard thinks than they might have a few years ago”

    Could be. Probably doesn’t matter. 24 players, a manager, and assorted coaches together for 8 months? There’s always going to be some friction along the way no matter who’s managing.

  349. G. Love June 15th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    I just want to go on record saying this as I’ve seen it alluded to in a few places.

    If Cashman sends down Robertson for Bruney and keeps Veras or Berroa on this roster he deserves to be fired and he doesn’t care about winning.

    Keeping Veras/Berroa over Robertson hurts an already limping bullpen.

    I’m hoping it’s just a rumor that has no legs. I can’t imagine a GM who wants to win and frankly needs to win would risk his struggling pen further just for the sake of not seeing Veras pitch well in another city….not to mention why Berroa is on this roster is just stupid.

  350. pat June 15th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    GB

    I did supply the Rona disclaimer before I started. :smile:

    That being said, it is curious to me that persona no grata is now sitting front and center by the dugout and nary a Stein has been heard from in months.

  351. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    Dutch – I agree. Let the people who really know what they’re doing (hint, they are currently getting paid by the New York Yankees) figure it out.

    Again, I will go with a chimp behind the dish if we win games!!!

  352. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    BBFan: “Where there is smoke there is fire. If pitchers are questioning him and they do not like to pitch to him, he has a problem. He needs to find a way to correct it. It really does not matter what any one here thinks, including Pete. If the pitchers do not trust him, Po has a problem. It is a pity that some of these pithcers would like to pitch to a near noice like Cervalli and not very experienced Posada.”

    What pitchers are questioning him? And don’t cite rumor, or the fact that Joba shook him off a few times in a game. Give some specifics to back up your point. Pitchers shake catchers off, it happens all the time. That is not a reason to dump a borderline Hall of Fame catcher, a switch-hitter with power who is on pace for another superb season. If AJ prefers working with Cervelli, and it makes him more comfortable and he pitches better, then fine. That is not unusual for a pitcher to feel more comfortable working with a specific catcher. Does that mean that Posada’s doing something wrong that “needs to be corrected”?
    Let me put it this way: How many world series has AJ won? What has he ever done, compared to Posada? It’s a two-way street people, and I’m not slamming AJ. I don’t know what the situation is between them, and frankly, I don’t care. I want them both to succeed and have great years. We need AJ at his best, and if that means working with Cervelli, fine. But to take that and jump to the conclusion that Posada is somehow “doing something wrong” and that all the pitchers are complaining about him is just flat out wrong. Until you hear it from them and not from some poster on a fanboard spreading rumor, it’s just wrong.

  353. randy l. June 15th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    “I usually enjoy a lot of the debates here. This one, though, just feels different to me.”

    doreen-

    i agree this one is a little different – different is the operative word :)

    i’ve caught all star pitchers. i physically know how to do all this stuff. i’ve been taught by major league catchers that go back as far as paul casanova . i can see pretty quickly how good a catcher is defensively.

    posada is not the best defensive catcher in the world , but he isn’t the worst and is pretty average at this point in his career.

    add his offense and he’s a huge plus to the team .

  354. Bob(The Original) June 15th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Thank you Wave Your Hat!

    It will fall on deaf ears around here though.

    The fact that someone thought they might have heard Kim Jones say that Burnett likes throwing to Cervelli is much more concrete evidence as to why Posada is horrible.

  355. CB June 15th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    “Burnett; you were accused of “hating” Cervelli yesterday.”

    Was I? I don’t think I saw those comments.

    I like Cervelli. I’ve followed his career since he was in A ball.

    Ultimately he’s not that good a two way catcher. He’s hitting .298 but he draws less walks than Cano does and he hits for no power whatsoever. All singles. His OPS is an .660 or so with an awful .279 OPS.

    He’s a good backup catcher but playing him more than is absolutely necessary will expose him and hurt the team in the long term.

  356. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    Smart post Wave Your Hat.

  357. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    Trisha — you mean Yogi? :)

  358. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    CB what are the Yankees going to do w/ Kevin Russo ?

  359. pat June 15th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    Unfortunately, I think Berroa survives until Ransom is back. The Yanks need to know they have an mlb ready option in the unlikely event that more than 1 infielder needs more than a breather.

  360. Subway Squawkers June 15th, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    Trish, thanks for the nice note!

    It’s easy to say that Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina, A.J. Burnett, etc., were prickly pains, so it’s not Posada’s fault if they didn’t get along with him. But CC Sabathia, who has had Cervelli catch two of his last three starts – including in Boston – is about the nicest and most mellow pitcher in baseball. If he continues to have Cervelli (or Molina when he comes back) catch him, that will be very telling about what he thinks of Jorge. – Lisa

  361. DB June 15th, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    Trisha, I see AJ worked out for you this weekend ;)

  362. Jordan June 15th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    Manny Ramirez dropped to 6th in the NL All-Star voting.

    This is a travesty.

    The All-Star balloting is as real as the Iranian Presidential election this past week!

    Peter Gammons = Ayatollah Khameini!

  363. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    pat
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
    GB

    I did supply the Rona disclaimer before I started.

    That being said, it is curious to me that persona no grata is now sitting front and center by the dugout and nary a Stein has been heard from in months.

    ————————————————————

    I can’t remember if there was a disclaimer on your post, because I was so giddy over the news. I how decided that I must be kept updated on any future “canoodling” between the two darlings.

  364. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    Jorge caught CC’s first good start vs. the Royals, a shutout.

  365. Pat M. June 15th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    RayVT,,,You just summized what many here have been trying to convey for almost 2 days……Catcher’s are by nature a take charge personality….So they have little tolerance for pitchers who basically are there to follow instructions….The whole concept of qualifing a cather’s worth by his c era is nuts and this is what has been dominating the board for the past 2 days…..It all started when a few of us wondered out load about Joba’s shaking off Jorge Friday night…..Joba’s done this before and it’s cost him the game……Jorge is a very good hitting catcher who has always been graded as an average to slightly above average catcher…..However he’s been around along time, it would be prudent to respect that knowledge……

  366. Bronx Jeers June 15th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    Don’t mess with the Old Guard !!

    http://tinyurl.com/ntx2xs

  367. Andrew June 15th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    “The Yanks need to know they have an mlb ready option in the unlikely event that more than 1 infielder needs more than a breather.”

    Why does the roster need to carry two of the same player? Pena is a lot better at doing what Angel Berroa purports to do. I don’t see the need to bring back Cody Ransom or keep Angel Berroa around this year at all. Pena is capable of filling in for A-Rod, Jeter or Cano. Swisher can back up Teixeira if needed. I don’t buy a scenario where you need to sit down A-Rod and Jeter at the same time, and if that were necessary for more than just 1 game I would imagine someone besides Angel Berroa would be playing in either of their places.

    So with that said, G.Love is absolutely right that Berroa or Veras should go when Bruney gets back (although I am convinced Veras is safe, so I believe it should 100% be Berroa). Then when they have to travel to the NL parks and need another non-pitcher for the bench I think Tomko should get DFA’d and they should add a position player to the 40 man.

  368. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    Very good post, Wave Your Hat.

  369. Jerkface June 15th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    You know what I like about the Old Guard? They are old, so we can get rid of them.

    And I can’t say I’ll miss more than Mariano Rivera out of the lot of them. Jeter, despite his renewal this season, is wearing thin. Posada will be a great DH, but as a DH he isn’t providing fantasmic production at his position like he does at catcher. Pettitte should be off the team yesterday.

  370. RayVT June 15th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    Wait till they come to OUR house
    June 15th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
    I just bought a magazine from August 61’ that had an article about the odds of either Maris or Mantle hitting 60…lol they gave Mantle the better chance.

    LOL! The funny part is that after the month of April Maris only had one (1) HR and people were calling for Maris to be moved from the 3rd spot in the order and Mantle put there. LOL!

  371. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    Don’t mess with the Old Guard!

    http://tinyurl.com/nyq3xt

  372. Pat M. June 15th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    Excellent research and post Hat-Man……

  373. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    Lisa, I am in total agreement. I believe part of the problem is that Jorge’s reputation precedes him. He is known for being feisty and hard-headed. That likely makes it harder for pitchers coming into the system to feel good about shaking him off, calling their own games, etc. It is well known that there are pitchers who like to have games called for them (Pettitte) and then there are pitchers who like to be in control of their own games. My take is that when a pitcher who wants to call his own game (Moose)- or wants certain pitches called that play into his strengths -comes across a catcher who wants it his own way, sparks are the inevitable result.

    It will indeed be an interesting watch no matter what.

  374. J-Boogie June 15th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    How ironic that I wrote a post today called, “Jorge Posada: Is it time to pass the torch?” I was thinking about it during yesterday’s game and i think the stats do show that Posada isn’t necessarily the Yankees best choice for a catcher. Sorry, if these stats have been dropped already. I didn’t have time to read the 300+ comments on my 15 minutes break from work.

    Cervelli’s cERA = 4.18
    Posada’s cERA = 6.44 (5.70 without Wang)

    The Yanks average 6 runs per game when Cervelli starts and only 5.58 when Jorge starts. Some much for all that added offense??

    Yanks winning % when Cervelli starts = .647 (.714 as catcher of record)
    Yanks winning % when Posads starts = .577 (.552 as catcher of record)

    Yankee starters W/L when Cervelli starts = 7-1
    Yankee starters W/L when Posada starts = 9-10

    Cervelli also has Posada a better fielding %, range factor, and zone rating. He’s also throwing out a higher % of base stealers, 37.5% to 31.91%.

    I know there’s no chance that Posada loses the starting job to Cervelli, but it’s worth a look. The numbers bear it out. Perhaps they should try to unload Matsui on someone and work Jorge into more of a DH role.

  375. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    Maris went on one of the greatest hot streaks of all time in May…similar to Tex actually, although magnified.

  376. Stultus Magnus...doesn't want to storm the moat when they are comping tix to charities. June 15th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    Yes, Hat-Man, good post.

    I wish Haiku-Man could put this all in perspective, poetically of course.

  377. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    “Trisha—you mean Yogi?”

    :D

    You said it!

  378. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    I really don’t understand why there should be any controversy. Girardi – like he watched Torre do during the championship years – needs to be the team on the field that he feels gives the Yankees the best chance to win. Cervelli has shown that he can be a positive factor for the Yankees as has Posada. The only reason this has become some kind of controversy is because we are all worried about Jorge Posada’s ego since it’s obvious that Girardi doesn’t want to hurt his feelings. I think a lot of us aren’t happy with Posada because of his attitude since his body has been breaking down – that he wants to play catcher and doesn’t want to dh or play 1B. That’s not the kind of attitude that the players on the championship teams had. If Cecil Fielder was a better call at 1B that night, Tino would sit on the bench cheering on his team ready to be used in any way his manager thought he would help. Same went for O’Neill, Knoblauch, Boggs etc. I really hope this isn’t about Jorge’s feelings because this is starting to smell a little too much like the Wang situation and that’s just not something I expect from Jorge.

  379. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    J-Boogie, we’ve made the arguements against that, you just need to skim through the comments.

  380. raymagnetic June 15th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    “We are all aware that Mussina said he preferred Molina and that he got his first 20-game season with Molina catching the majority of his games. ”

    I’ve seen this sentiment numerous times on the board and it is NONSENSE.

    Mussina won over 100 games with Posada as his catcher. I guess Mussina somehow found a way to win 100 games throwing to a guy who doesn’t know how to call pitches.

    Sounds mean but a lot of you are STUPID when it comes to this topic.

  381. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    Hey, let me be the first on the the “other side” to do the inevitable – GOOD POST J BOOGIE!

  382. DB June 15th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    Subway Squakers, Cervelli catching CC doesn’t mean bubkus other than Posada needs a day off and CC is comfortable with him. Cervelli caight CC when he gave up the 5 runs to TB also. All pretty much hard hit balls. Where was Cervelli’s genius then?

  383. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    The Ghost, Posada’s ego has ZERO to do with it, at least for me. I think Posada gives a far better chance to win.

  384. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    J-Boogie,

    sample size, sample size, sample size.
    You are basing this all on Cervelli’s, what, 14 games?

  385. rover June 15th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Moose being the smart old washed up guy he was, probably realized that yes Molina had a bit better arm and Moose knowing this is able in his mind to believe his odds of winning could actually be better if 43% of base runners were picked off rather than something near league average. I dunno I don’t Know the Moose, something tells me he figured that out. Hence his preference.

  386. Wave Your Hat June 15th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    Still waiting, Trisha, for you to shift the burden of proof back…

  387. Bronx Jeers June 15th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    Now I feel at home.

    Thanks Nick!

  388. CB June 15th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    “what are the Yankees going to do w/ Kevin Russo ?”

    Brandon,

    I was dissappointed that he got hurt and that it took him so long to recover. He took a nice step forward last year and was so good in the AFL that you really got the sense that he was coming on and could be a valuable piece.

    I like him quite a bit. He’s not going to be a superstar in any way. His value won’t even be as a starting player.

    But he’ll be a very good multi-position bench player. Very good. He’s exactly the kind of guy the yankees haven’t been able to produce for years and years thus necessitating miguel cairo, womack, betemit, berroa etc, etc.

    If he hadn’t gotten injured I think he’d be in the in the majors right now.

    I do also think that if he continues to progress that he has a shot to be a decent starting second baseman for a major league club – not necessarily the yankes but I could see another team being interested.

  389. Nick in SF in Larkspur June 15th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Good luck with that wait, Wave Your Hat. See you all later. ;)

  390. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Yankees sign Mack in 13th round.

    Check out this HR! http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ent-433082

  391. murphydog June 15th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    Last year it was Jeter’s turn to get buried, he’s the worst SS, his zone rating, blah, blah, blah. The Fielding Bible, blah blah blah. … Jeter can’t hit for power anymore.. Jeter can’t go to his left, Jeter’s arm is shot…

    Oddly enough, Derek is playing better D and hitting better this year. So no more “bury Jeter” this season; it’s time for the angry mob to call for Posada’s head instead. This year because some kid with an unknown future, and an even less promising past, has done better than expected, Posada is no longer worth keeping on the team, and all the arm-chair GMs can spot all his “flaws.” IMO, the only thing worse than ignorance is aggressive ignorance. What a perfect case of missing the forest for the trees.

    This is what it’s like to play in NY. This kind of flock mentality is why some people won’t play in NY for all the money in the world. Can’t say I blame those who dislike spoiled Yankee fans after reading the dreck from the kill Posada types. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

  392. SJ44 June 15th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    Trisha,

    You keep saying there is a “problem” with Jorge. There is no problem with Jorge. There is a FAN PERCEPTION of a “problem”. That’s a big difference.

    As far as “hard headed-ness”, I don’t buy that theory.

    The guy has caught over 1,000 games in the majors. Frankly, he forgot more than Joba Chamberlain knows about pitching at this level.

    Instead of saying Jorge is “hard headed”, perhaps he’s sick of a 23 year old kid constantly shaking him off and making his time on the mound more troublesome.

    In that case, its not hardheaded-ness, he’s right.

    As far as AJ, look at the body of his entire career. He’s always been an up and down pitcher.

    Cervelli didn’t save him yesterday. Three things saved him yesterday:

    1. A horrible strike 3 call on Cora’s checked swing.
    2. A line drive by Beltran hit right to Jeter.
    3. 9 runs in the bottom of the 4th.

    Those three instances did more to save him yesterday than Cervelli’s work behind home plate.

  393. rover June 15th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    Yeah it is odd that a 35 yearold shortstop who was washed up last year unable to hit or field would be leading the all star voting. yeah iknow popularity contest rule.

  394. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    “There is no objective evidence that the catchers considered to be best at their craft actually improve pitcher efficiency, *increase strike rates*, induce more misses and fouls, or do anything else to reduce batter’s offensive output. If…the best game-callers are having some effect that statistics can’t measure, we still have to ask how much offensive production a team could responsibly give up to obtain such an undetectable improvement.”

    Wave Your Hat – I guess there needs to be an update. I bet the BP people recognized the “new wave” since 1999. It’s called framing pitches??? That was like taking candy from a baby. Hell Leiter, Cone, and Singleton talk about framing pitches all the time, as do Orsillo and Eckersley when I am forced to watch NESN. And some catchers are much better at it than others.

    Anyway, while I am at least interested in the discourse presented by CB and SJ because they really took time today to point out a lot of things in an objective sense, I don’t find your article by Baseball Prospectus to be compelling enough to change my thinking, especially since they missed something so damned obvious.

  395. Stultus Magnus...doesn't want to storm the moat when they are comping tix to charities. June 15th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    I wish we could just go back to discussing Emmanuelle Chriqui.

    Oh well.

  396. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    trisha, did you read Pete’s post?

    “The idea that a catcher can regularly steal strikes by framing a pitch is largely a myth according to Molina. “Maybe once or twice a game,” he said. “Depends on the umpire.”

    According to Molina, the umpires are judging where the ball crosses the plate, not where the catcher’s glove is.”

  397. SJ44 June 15th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    DeAngelo Mack played with my nephew in the Cape last year. They have been texting back and forth the past few days.

    He had a real good year at South Carolina. Great speed, real solid defender, gap power. Real nice kid.

    Very happy to have him in the Yankees system. He will be fun to watch develop.

  398. pat June 15th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    The Ghost

    There is always ego involved with professional athletes. Some guys egos just handle it better than others.

  399. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    sample size, sample size, sample size.
    You are basing this all on Cervelli’s, what, 14 games?

    ================

    Actually I think a lot of us have had our eyes opened when Molina joined the team because he’s the first superior pitch caller the Yankees have had since Girardi. Face it, the Yankees haven’t been the Yankees since 2000 mostly because the pitching hasn’t been able to win the big games. Jorge has been the Yankees big game catcher throughout their decline. All we are saying is that a different path should actually be considered sane since Jorge has been the premier catcher on a team that has had the talent to win it all for every year of this decade – but couldn’t get it done.

  400. CB June 15th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    As others have said – both Wave your Hat and RayVT’s posts on this subject above are spot on.

    There is no valid statistic of “cERA.” It doesn’t exist. No one who does statistics in baseball uses that stat or takes it seriously. It’s an artifact of stats being available by cross tabs on sites like ESPN.

    Fangraphs is one of the most sabermetrically oriented sources of baseball analysis. They do not use any statistics to assess the defensive value of a catcher because they don’t feel that any stat accurately captures catching defense/handling of pitchers.

    None – not statistics at all.

    Do you seriously think they don’t know how to run a simple cross tab in excel to produce a “cERA?”

    “cERA” has no validity. Range factor, zone rating and UZR are all meaningless for a catcher. People who developed these stats don’t take them seriously for catchers because they don’t measure what they’re supposed to for a catcher.

    So if the people who take baseball stats the most seriously don’t use “cERA” to assess catchers why does it make any sense for others to do so?

    Could that perhaps be the incorrect way of using statistics?

  401. RussW210 June 15th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    Posada didn’t forget how to pitch… he just refuses to adapt, like an old grandpa who insists his b+w tv is better than our hdtv color.

    :)

  402. DB June 15th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    Trish, do you think framing pitches is a new art?

  403. RayVT June 15th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    I once caught a game when the pitcher shook off 6 signs. I was dumbfounded and called time and walked out to the mound to ask him what he wanted to throw. The batter played SS for the Cardinals later (backup to Ozzie) and the Pitcher later pitched for the Yankees. When I got to the mound Kenny was laughing and said he wanted the batter to think he had more pitches to think about. I said ok! What do you want to throw. he said Fastball! I said where, he said inside & low. I said good, becaue the last time you threw him that pitch he hit it out of the stadium over the 385 foot mark. He then said well what should I throw. I said that pitch because he got lucky then and won’t be expecting it again with 2 strikes. I went back to catching and he struck him out on a low inside fastball.

    Who cares what goes on in a pitchers mind. Most of them have more empty space than the catcher calling the pitches. The catcher is the QB on the baseball field. Usually the catcher is less emotional and more in tune with the hitter. Moose was an exception. I wonder what the team average of the NYY Pitchers would be on the Wonderlich scoring.

  404. SJ44 June 15th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Trisha,

    At the major league level, framing pitches doesn’t do much. It really helps at the college level because the umpires aren’t that good.

    The big thing you want from a big league catcher is soft hands. If a catcher can catch hard stuff softly (not seeing the glove move too much), that’s what you are looking for.

    That’s one of Posada’s strengths because he used to be a middle infielder. In fact, his soft hands are one of the reasons he was moved to catcher.

    When you watch a catcher, what you don’t want is for him to jerk or stab at the ball. When the glove moves too much, it messes up the umpire.

  405. D.B. June 15th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Trisha, do you think framing pitches is a new art?

  406. m June 15th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Are people still trying to convince us that Jorge’s a better defensive catcher than the other 3 we’ve seen this year?

    Just throwing something out there, but does Boston hit us well because they’ve seen Jorge calling games for a decade? Is he too predictable? Do they know what he’s going to call before he even calls it?

    I don’t say this with conviction, just asking if it’s a possibility.

  407. D.B. June 15th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    Trisha, do you think framing pitches are a new art?

  408. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    Absolutely no way Jorge is the reason Boston is beating us. Zero. None. No chance.

    At least in my opinion.

  409. SJ44 June 15th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    CB,

    I can tell you this much…..As far as evaluating catchers at the college level, and projecting them to the pros, there wasn’t a single conversation I had with a scout or any personnel person in baseball that cited catching ERA.

    Its a bogus stat for reasons already outlined by you and others in this thread.

  410. Bob(The Original) June 15th, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    J-Boogie
    June 15th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    The Yanks average 6 runs per game when Cervelli starts and only 5.58 when Jorge starts. Some much for all that added offense??

    ————————————-

    Wow. What a stupid argument. If you honestly think the offense is better with Cervelli than Posada, I have no clue what to say to you.

    Do you even stop to think about how many games Posada caught this year with no A-Rod in the lineup and Teixeira htting below the Mendoza line for a month?

    You think maybe, just maybe, that has a little something to do with the runs scored?

    Statisitics in the hands of people who have no clue how to use them are a dangerous thing.

  411. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Hey SJ I just gave you props. If it is just fan perception then perhaps the Yankee organization can find a way to cure it. You yourself said during one game that it was painfully obvious that CC and Posada were definitely not on the same page and needed to find a way to get there. CC isn’t exactly a kid pitcher. It seems that many times people aren’t on the same page with Jorge. (Fan perception? Reality perhaps?)

    Jorge is a highly emotional player. He doesn’t bury that when he catches. I just can’t buy the problem is Joba,
    CC, and AJ, and Jorge has no culpability whatever. Read Lisa’s (Subway Squawker) column. I think Posada needs to learn a better way to interact with his pitchers and if that’s all that it takes, well great then. But it’s not all on the pitchers. I don’t buy that.

  412. Patrick June 15th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    I’m not a big fan of ripping Joba/A.J. just to prove a point about Posada.

    Everyone go read Wave Your Hat’s 2:57 post, it should end this silly argument once and for all.

  413. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    SJ Christopher Smith or DeAngelo Mack who makes it to Charleston first ?

    And what the hell are the Yankees planning to do w/ Kevin Russo ?

  414. Wave Your Hat June 15th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    “I don’t find your article by Baseball Prospectus to be compelling enough to change my thinking, especially since they missed something so damned obvious.”

    Trisha, they looked at that. From the same chapter, which I encouraged you to read, remember:

    “There are some other places we can look for a catcher’s defensive ability. A catcher who frames pitches well should get more borderline calls. A higher percentage of pitches that are taken should be called strikes by a good framing catcher.

    Once again, nothing indicating a “framing ability” shows up.”

    Still waiting…

  415. SJ44 June 15th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    M,

    No, because scouting reports and how you attack hitters don’t change from catcher to catcher.

    Regardless of who is catching, you attack hitters according to the scouting reports and who the pitcher is on a given day.

    Boston hits Yankee pitching well because Yankee pitchers have pitched poorly against the Red Sox. Posada has nothing to do with it.

  416. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    “Trisha, do you think framing pitches are a new art?”

    Of course not! But apparently BBP does!

  417. Pat M. June 15th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    It’s a shame that we don’t have any pitchers her at The LoHud, although we are fortunate enough to have a former catcher with a wealth of expierence to help fill that void….Although Randy I, is percieved as some prickly beast, his career speaks volumns…..Pitchers are very one demensional ballplayers for the most part….Half the time they cannot function off the rubber…You hold your breath when a ball is hit back to them and they have to make a to 2nd…They can hit a fly 60 feet away, but take away that slab and it’s a potential nightmare…..The pitcher with the Gold Gloves are the same guys who want to be in complete contol of the game…Maddox, Mussina, Katt etc. all were of the higher intellect breed of pitchers….The rest are much like kickers in football, they do one thing..Just follow instructions via the guy with the gear on…Nothing more nothing less, and don’t think too much….

  418. J-boogie June 15th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    Our house- I’ll get to that at some point today. Like I said, I’m reading this for first time today and my free time didn’t afford me the chance to look at all comments.

    Trisha- thanks. I don’t think it’s something that can be 100% overlooked.

    Dutch Hugo- I mentioned that in my actual blog post. I know it’s not a huge sample size. But I know what I see an what I see is someone (Posada) who is not as good as he once was. The stats were to try and validate that.

    I personally would rather see him DH more. Pitching and D win championships. The pitching and d are better when Jorge isn’t behind the dish.

  419. YankFanDave June 15th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    Jorge does know how to catch, but that might be the very problem. He has be overly ambitious in his calling this year. When he came up, he was young and caught veterans and learned from them; now he is the veteran compared to much of the staff and calls too complicated a pitch selection. The staff can’t get a groove going and instead of keeping it simple he gets verbal. An example, last week in one sequence he had AJ go two seam, off speed, curve and then four seam – mind boggling combination. Also, he was known as quiet behind the plate up until a few years ago (not verbally quiet, but less glove and body movement). Now he is a very loud guy back there, body shifting, gloving moving and mouth going. Cervelli, on the other hand, is very quiet. Yesterday at one point AJ could not find the strike zone, Cervelli seemed to notice that AJ was throwing to his body not the glove in the strike zone so next pitch he rose his body as well as the glove into the strike zone – strike! – thing of beauty to watch. Jorge needs a little humility that’s all because you are right, it ain’t about him.

  420. Papa Smurf June 15th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    The just look at the ERA when the pitchers are throwing to Cash/Molina/Cervelli compared to the ERA when they are throwing to Posada, there is a huge difference. Thats all you need to know. Good for Joba shaking off Posada.

    Also what Jorge did in 98 doesn’t really matter anymore. These are new pitchers and Jorge cant adjust to them. Even Sabathia said about Cervelli “I never really shook him off it was like playing catch.”

  421. randy l. June 15th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    “.Catcher’s are by nature a take charge personality….So they have little tolerance for pitchers who basically are there to follow instructions”

    pat m-

    my worst moment losing it with a pitcher:

    i’m catching a college kid in a semi pro league on cape cod comparable to the cape league and the manager tells me i’m the manager of a game he couldn’t make it too.

    the kid is in love with his curve ball but it is pathetically bad. i tell him before the game that he he going to locate his fast ball and throw the breaking ball in the dirt or out of the zone.

    the first pitch of the game, i signal fast ball and he shakes me off. i call time and go out to the mound and tell him that if he shakes me off again he’s out of the game.

    i go back and give him the fastball sign,and he nods yes and throws his curveball which gets hammered.

    i call time , walk out to the mound and signal for a new pitcher. the pitcher won’t give me the ball, so i snap and grab him by the ear and drag him by his ear off the mound and all the way into the dugout where i deposit him on the bench.

    that was the last time i was shook off that day :)

  422. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    SJ, my question please :x

  423. Wow. June 15th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    I truly hope that Pete, SJ44, CB, Murphydog, et al. keep fighting the fight on this before it becomes conventional wisdom. You do it far more eloquently and intelligently than I can.

    Posada doubters run the gamut from perky contrarians to misguided haters to those who just want to stir it up. This is the Jeter debate all over again. Doesn’t make sense to me and it says more about the doubters than it does about Posada.

  424. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    Me: Since when did Clemens not prefer pitching to Posada? Clemens to this day sings Posada’s praises as a catcher.__
    MARK CAN’T TOUCH THIS: Its been widely rumored that Clemens did not like to throw to Posada

    More rumor, and you don’t even get the rumor right. Clemens himself has, whenever asked, sung Jorge’s praises. Did they disagree sometimes in the heat of battle? Yes. Read GreenBeret7′s posts about this. You are slamming Posada and basing your argument on rumor.

  425. Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    “Just throwing something out there, but does Boston hit us well because they’ve seen Jorge calling games for a decade? Is he too predictable? Do they know what he’s going to call before he even calls it?”

    Mel:

    I’d suggest that it’s more familiarity with the pitchers they see so often than it is familiarity with the catcher.

  426. Steve B June 15th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    “Just throwing something out there, but does Boston hit us well because they’ve seen Jorge calling games for a decade? Is he too predictable? Do they know what he’s going to call before he even calls it?”

    Mel:

    I’d suggest that it’s more familiarity with the pitchers they see so often than it is familiarity with the catcher.

  427. CB June 15th, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    “Its a bogus stat for reasons already outlined by you and others in this thread.”

    No one take it seriously. No one. This whole non-issue is a product of the internet and making stats available more easily.

  428. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    Wave Your Hat

    I have listened to Cone, Leiter, Singleton, Remy, Eckersley, and others who have played the game. Sorry I take their word over what might appear in Baseball Prospectus.

    To each her or his own.

  429. SJ44 June 15th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    Trisha,

    It isn’t up to the Yankees to cure any fan perception of Posada. It really isn’t.

    Jorge is a fiery guy. Given his success in the game, its pretty tough for me to believe he has to “change” now.

    Why should he change?

    I’ll tell you this much, if Joba shook off Thurman Munson as much as he shook off Jorge the other night, Thurm would have kicked his butt on the mound! lol

    Somebody posting on a blog suggesting Posada has to change to make his fan perception more palatable isn’t an argument for replacing him behind the dish.

    Brandon,

    DeAngelo is a much better player than Chris Smith. Chris is a LONG work in progress. DeAngelo is a more experienced and more polished player.

  430. Wait till they come to OUR house June 15th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    New thread (finally!).

  431. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    j-Boogie, forgive me if I choose to take the judgment of people like Girardi, Pettitte, Mariano Rivera, and even randy l. on this board who has actually been a pro catcher, over you, who is a fan posting on a fanboard who thinks he knows more than all the rest of these people.

  432. Brandon ! "B/c the Yankees don't believe in young and athletic in the OF" June 15th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    Thank you :)

    Now the Russo question

  433. Doreen - Been to the New Stadium June 15th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    So, now Posada is the reason the Yankees did not advance in the playoffs since 2000? They got the WS in 2001. Playoffs through 2007, in most instances having the best record in the league. So, let me understand, pitchers were able to do well enough during the regular season with Jorge behind the plate, well enough to win their division and get to the playoffs, but once the post-season started, Posada’s catching skills disappeared?

    I am just flabbergasted. This debate is reaching into the depths.

  434. Wave Your Hat June 15th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    Fine, Trisha, you are free to believe what you like, but no more posting that the opposition has no arguments other than “that’s nonsense”, OK?

  435. J-boogie June 15th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    Original Bob- I’m not saying Jorge’s bat should be removed from the lineup. I prefer his bat to Matsui’s and I think there’s more to gain with a better defensive catcher behind the dish and Posada DH’ing more.

    So what’s better: Matsui/Posada or Cervelli/Posada?

  436. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    Randy, exactly what is your vaunted career that Pat M keeps referring to? I remember you saying you were called on to prepare minor league catchers in the bullpen at times – something like that – but seriously I don’t really know what you did before. Can you please outline it for us.

  437. randy l. June 15th, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    “Posada didn’t forget how to pitch… he just refuses to adapt, like an old grandpa who insists his b+w tv is better than our hdtv color.”

    the problem with this analogy is that baseball players aren’t technological machines. they play with a wood bat and and a leather baseball and glove and with the same biological dna that existed in 1888.

    some young people don’t get it that young and stupid really isn’t any better than old and stupid.
    stupid is stupid.

  438. pat June 15th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    “that was the last time i was shook off that day”

    Only that day? I would think that would have set a few pitchers straight for longer than a day. :wink:

  439. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    YanFanDave wrote:

    Cervelli, on the other hand, is very quiet. Yesterday at one point AJ could not find the strike zone, Cervelli seemed to notice that AJ was throwing to his body not the glove in the strike zone so next pitch he rose his body as well as the glove into the strike zone – strike! – thing of beauty to watch. Jorge needs a little humility that’s all because you are right, it ain’t about him.

    =======================

    This is an excellent observation. I noticed that too but didn’t quite understand why he was doing it. These are the little things that I see a lot from Cervelli that I don’t really see from any other Yankees outside of Texiera and Mo. There is so much beauty in the game of baseball when you have the privilege of watching guys who master the minor details.

  440. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    “Fine, Trisha, you are free to believe what you like, but no more posting that the opposition has no arguments other than “that’s nonsense”, OK?”

    Wave – I NEVER said that. You need to read a lot better than that. I have been very pleased with certain posters on the other side of the issue (CB and SJ specifically) who have outlined their reasons for feeling the way they do, and I have said that. On the other hand, I am nauseated by the high-and-mighty mouths here who resort to depracating one-liners and just brush off (what we on the other side obviously feel are legitimate concerns) with calling it nonsense, stupidity, silliness, a conspiracy, ridiculous – and the like – without adding anything more substantive to it than that.

    At least you just did that. Thank you for that.

    We don’t have to agree but can respect that both sides feel they have legitimate issues.

  441. D.B. June 15th, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    Great story randy l., that’s some funny stuff

  442. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    Doreen don’t put words in my mouth. If you read my post I said that the Yankees have had the talent to win it all every year of this decade and have yet to climb back on top of the mountain and the reason why has been their pitching (IMO). They have changed pitchers every year, they even changed the manager and still the problem persists – there’s only one piece of that puzzle they have yet to change…

  443. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    “Somebody posting on a blog suggesting Posada has to change to make his fan perception more palatable isn’t an argument for replacing him behind the dish.”

    SJ, I was just going with your take that it is fan perception and trying to keep a civil discussion civil by then suggesting the organization needs to do something to change fan perception. The reality is that I and others feel it is a lot more than fan perception.

    So we might as well leave it at that, hey.

  444. D.B. June 15th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    Trisha, I see AJ worked out for you. I’m sure you would have started him with out me telling you though. I think he is starting to turn the corner. Weird guy that AJ. The whole buddha thing in the locker, tatoos, screaming at people on his cell in Borders.. It’s almost as if he needs to be pissed off to pitch well, hell so does Joba for that matter.

  445. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    THE GHOST: “Actually I think a lot of us have had our eyes opened when Molina joined the team because he’s the first superior pitch caller the Yankees have had since Girardi. Face it, the Yankees haven’t been the Yankees since 2000 mostly because the pitching hasn’t been able to win the big games. Jorge has been the Yankees big game catcher throughout their decline. All we are saying is that a different path should actually be considered sane since Jorge has been the premier catcher on a team that has had the talent to win it all for every year of this decade – but couldn’t get it done.”

    ——————————–

    And so what, Posada has forgotten how to call a game? Because according to this logic, he should be lauded as the single reason our pitching was good enough to win it all in 98, 99, 2000, win the pennant in ’01 and ’03…

    Let’s take 2005 for instance. We made the playoffs despite a rotation that included the likes of Aaron Small, Shawn Chacon, to name 2.
    I understand if someone wants to say that Posada’s physical tools are diminishing due to age (though I don’t think there’s any evidence to support that). But whatever truth there is to the “game-calling” argument — what is the argument? That he’s forgotten how???

  446. RayVT June 15th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    This is hilarious! Posada can’t catch (June 2009). Team is better off if ARod is replaced by Pena. (April/May 2009) Tex is worthless. (April 2009) Jeter is washed up! (July 2008 – April 2009) Melky can’t play CF and can’t hit! (July 2008 – April 2009) Cano should be traded as he sucks! (May 2008 – April 2009) Nady sucks! (April 2009) Nady must come back soon please! June (2009) Swisher is God! (April/May 2009) Swisher sucks and should be benched. (June 2009) Swisher is great again! (June 2009) Mo is washed up. (April 2008) Mo is greatest ever! (May 2008-May 2009) Mo is overrated. (June 2009)

    I am so glad that the GM wanabes are here to enlighten us and dazzle us with their brilliance. I believe Pete we need a separate tally sheet of posters and their predicitons or dumps as a matter of record. Sort of a litmus test to their supreme intelligence or lack thereof. I bet most of these so called informed GM wanabe’s are battling for last place in their Fantasy Baseball leagues! LOL!

  447. Subway Squawkers June 15th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    J-Boogie, thanks for those stats. Here’s another important stat: Posada is going to be 38 this year. Johnny Bench was already retired at that age, and he had started transitioning from behind the plate when he was 32. Yogi Berra was in his final season at 38, and was no longer a full-time catcher. Joe Girardi, who started grooming Posada for his job when he was 32, was in his last season.

    To me, having Cervelli catch a little more, and Posada a little less, is a win-win. It gets a potential catcher of the future some valuable experience, and gets a veteran who has been on the DL twice in the past two years some much-needed rest.

  448. J-boogie June 15th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    Dutch – not saying I know more than anybody. But there are quite a few guys out there that have played the game who aren’t fans of throwing to Posada. People are foolish to think that he’s the same catcher from the early 90s. And of course Mo and Andy are going to prefer Posada. They’ve been teammates for 10+ years. There’s an established relationship between them. Of course they’ll prefer Jorge, speaking highly of them.

    If Posada’s bat was more like Varitek’s, would he still be catching? Absolutely not. Would anyone still want him catching? I wouldn’t.

  449. D.B. June 15th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    BTW, if anyone wants to read them, Pel put a link to the three articles wave referred to a couple of threads back. They are very in depth and honestly I only read the conclusions. Great stuff though and really puts to bed the whole catcher influencing the game discussion.

  450. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    D.B. thanks. And another thing that worked well – I put Lee in last night’s game!

    I am thinking of dropping Ludwick and picking up Cody Ross (even though I just dropped him.) What do you think of that move? Last night I spent a lot of time looking at all of the teams’ relievers. It doesn’t seem that there are a lot of closers out there left, but there are some set-up guys who seem to be doing well. I picked up Bruney to try to get some Ks in there.

  451. Fan Interference June 15th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    Jorge is a DH.

  452. randy l. June 15th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    “Randy, exactly what is your vaunted career that Pat M keeps referring to?”

    trisha-
    nothing “vaunted” about it. but i put in a lot of bullpen hours catching mlb pitchers. here’s the answer i gave to someone who asked a few weeks ago the same question you’re asking.

    “i’ve caught pitchers who have won over 2000 mlb games. i’ve been roomates with rick petersen, neil allen, ross grimsley. i caught the guy all winter who started the national league all star game in 1991. i’ve been in spring training with frank robinson’s orioles. i worked under 15 year yankee pitching coach, tony cloninger for two years as his bullpen catcher.
    click on my username if you want to see what i did. that’s me in cloninger’s bullpen next to ron leflore and gene clines.

  453. Wave Your Hat June 15th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    “Wave – I NEVER said that. You need to read a lot better than that. ”

    Trisha – see your 12:28 pm post. Not much difference between “its stupid” and “that’s nonsense”, is there?

  454. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Brandon ! “B/c the Yankees don’t believe in young and athletic in the OF”
    June 15th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
    Thank you

    Now the Russo question

    ————————————————————

    Russo hitting for a good average, but, he has zero power, decent speed (Cabrera type?) and doesn’t walk, but he has almost no experience at short, brutal at 3rd and 7 pro games in the outfield. 2nd base is his best defensive spot. Where would he be playing? On offense, he’s Gardner without the breakaway speed and on defense, he’s closer to Berroa than Pena.

  455. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Dutch, again, don’t put words in my mouth. You are making up a straw man argument. I haven’t said that Posada can’t call a game, that’s someone else you have a beef with. What I have said is that Molina/Cervelli call a better game and that Posada has proven himself fallible especially throughout the last 5 years where the Yankees have had far superior teams yet have not been able to get back to the series. Not saying that he is the problem, just saying that maybe making him a little less entrenched as the “no-brainer” big game catcher might be the slight change this team needs to get back to the ALCS.

  456. SJ44 June 15th, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    You can’t compare Posada’s age with the ages of the other catchers you cite.

    Bench, Yogi and Girardi all caught longer than Jorge at a young age at the ML level.

    Jorge didn’t become a fulltime ML catcher until he was 27. Bench was in the majors at 19, Girardi at 24, and Yogi in his early 20′s. Big difference on the wear and tear on the body.

    Trisha,

    My point was the fan perception stuff is not something that the Yankees should have any opinion about. Their job is winning games. If the team wins, fans (at least most of them) are happy.

    If they lose, they look for scapegoats.

    This isn’t a problem within the Yankees. It really isn’t.

    Its similar to the Joba in the bullpen talk. Fans may think the Yankees talk about it all the time but, they don’t.

    Same thing with this situation.

  457. D.B. June 15th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    Yeah J-boogie, the RS were bending over backwards to keep Varitek in the organization. The only reason he got a chance is because there were no other viable options.

  458. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    J-Boogie: I don’t care what you would want. It doesn’t matter. What matters are what the manager and coaches and pitchers and players on the team want and think. And his bat isn’t more like Varitek’s, so what’s the point of that comparison? Varitek also is the WORST catcher in all of baseball at throwing out runners, for those who keep saying Posada has a “weak arm”…

    You are a fan posting opinions on a blog. Your opinions carry no weight with me. Certainly far less than the players, pitchers, coaches and manager.

  459. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    Wave – good try at bait and switch.

    See ya.

  460. Cash is King June 15th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    I can’t agree more with SJ. Joba needs to listen to his catcher and stop trying to call his own game on every pitch. Joba has become much too predictable and if he can’t throw that slider for strikes, he gets in trouble because the hitters will just layoff of that slider in the dirt.

  461. Papa Smurf June 15th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    Girardi said in an interview with Francesa a while back that he didn’t mind Joba shaking off the catcher because he needs to throw his pitches with 100 percent conviction.

  462. Doreen - Been to the New Stadium June 15th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    Ghost -

    How did I misinterpret what you wrote? You’re saying they should try changing the catcher because they’ve changed everything else and it hasn’t gotten them a WS. To me, that is saying that you believe Jorge Posada’s performance as a catcher should be considered a reason that they didn’t advance.

  463. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    THE GHOST: Dutch, again, don’t put words in my mouth. You are making up a straw man argument. I haven’t said that Posada can’t call a game, that’s someone else you have a beef with.

    Ghost, this is what you said:
    “Actually I think a lot of us have had our eyes opened when Molina joined the team because he’s the first superior pitch caller the Yankees have had since Girardi.”

    Sure sounds like you’re slamming Posada’s game-calling ability to me.

  464. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    Varitek also is the WORST catcher in all of baseball at throwing out runners, for those who keep saying Posada has a “weak arm”…

    ================

    Yes, but his pitch calling is the stuff of legend, no?

  465. Wave Your Hat June 15th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    “Wave – good try at bait and switch.”

    What bait and switch? I don’t get it. Did I misinterpret your 12:28 pm post?

  466. D.B. June 15th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    Trish, Bruney was a good pickup. An inning of no runs and a K is better than nothing and I think Bruney can give that to you. I know you got Madson already, round it out with a couple other good set-up guys and take your chances. It’s better than not getting any stats in there. Besides, closers go down all the time. Someone has got to close the game when they are out.

  467. KO June 15th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    I’m sorry but it’s pretty obvious that Cervelli is, at least with this set of pitchers, more adept at calling games than Posada. Clearly this season our pitching has been better with Cervelli behind the plate. I don’t feel like looking up the numbers but I’m almost certain they would back me up.

  468. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    Yeah, it sounds like I’m slamming Posada if that’s what you want to hear but I’m not. I’m saying that their particular talent – what got them to the majors – was their superior ability to handle pitchers. I don’t think anyone would argue the fact that Posada got to, and stayed in the majors because of his superior offensive ability. He has made himself into an average to above average defensive catcher but working hard at it but no one who knows the game would consider him a superior defensive catcher.

  469. KO June 15th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    And actually nah PA, you’re wrong bro, the lineup would be best with Cervelli as the everyday catcher and Posada or Matsui as the DH every game. It’s not all about offense genius. The pitching is better with Cervelli. He has a better rapport with the pitchers too, already, this season anyhow. The team would be better with Cervelli in there everyday.

  470. D.B. June 15th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    It just never ends, people need to know what they are talking about before making a statement. It isn’t obvious that Cervelli is more adept. What is obvious is the multitude of facts that support a catchers game calling has no discernable effect on the outcome of a ballgame.

  471. no.27 June 15th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    Trisha,

    Go back and look at the post I wrote that compared Posada’s CERA year by year to the team ERA. It clearly shows that Posada hasn’t negatively affected the team with his pitch calling through his career. I guess you’d rather talk about people calling you stupid than talk about an argument that proves your idea wrong.

  472. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    So, Ghost, you want to see Molina starting? Seriously?

    I will take the “average to above average” defensive catcher with what might be hall of fame offensive stats, who is on a pace this year to hit 34 homers and drive in 105 runs, over a guy who can’t hit, or a guy who is completely unproven, whether those guys have better “game-calling” skills, which is completely debatable anyway.

  473. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    Trisha, you did say that. I made the comment that the pitch calling deversity was “nonsense” and this was the second time you responded. I’m sure you’ve marked what I said in answering you. I’m not in the mood to look for it, but, there was more than “it’s nonsense”.

    ============================================================

    trisha – OPPC lifetime member
    June 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
    “I don’t disagree. Posada is far from perfect. But no player is.

    Every catcher has situations where his gamecalling is inadequate.

    With that bat, you more than live with it.”

    I respect this answer more than just about any other that I have seen. I would still like to see more accountability from Posada for getting in touch with scouting reports (if it is true that he doesn’t bother) but thank you for what you just said.

    ***It shows a lot more thought and intelligence than the “that’s nonsense” nonanswer that continues to be thrown out here*** . We are all aware that Mussina said he preferred Molina and that he got his first 20-game season with Molina catching the majority of his games. And we all know that there have been pitchers who have had “personal catchers” if you will, and some are on their way to the Hall of Fame. If it was so simple as GB portrays it, no pitcher would ever have preference for a personal catcher. And Greg Maddux never would have refused to have Javy Lopez as his catcher.

    Anyway, CB, thanks for the acknowledgment.

  474. GreenBeret7 June 15th, 2009 at 4:18 pm

    I will save Trisha the problem of looking it up. This is what I said.

    ————————————————————

    GreenBeret7
    June 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
    The arguement with “there are pitchers that asked not to have Posada catch” is nonsense. If they can pitch, it won’t make any difference who the catcher is. The fact that the pitchers can’t hold runners is their fault, not Posada’s….same with walks and hanging beach balls. How smart are most pitchers…..some were so smart that they didn’t want Yogi Berra to catch them. If they insisted, they got their way….with other teams.

  475. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    Doreen wrote:

    Ghost –
    How did I misinterpret what you wrote? You’re saying they should try changing the catcher because they’ve changed everything else and it hasn’t gotten them a WS. To me, that is saying that you believe Jorge Posada’s performance as a catcher should be considered a reason that they didn’t advance.

    ==============

    No, I’m saying that in years past it would seem like a slight to not have Jorge behind the plate in a big playoff game. I would like Girardi to work on making that less of a controversy as this year progresses. Posada is a great player but he’s old, he’s injury prone and he’s predictable. At his age he needs to be sharing duty with a young player. Now the Yankees didn’t have a can’t miss prospect waiting in the wings but Cervelli has surprised everyone by making the most of his opportunity and has also shown that a young energetic catcher can add another dimension to this team. This season was going down the tubes before Cervelli’s emergence. I believe he has earned the right to turn into a pumpkin before the Yankees send him back down. No one on this team seemed like they cared if they won or lost before he showed up. Maybe it’s a coincidence but I’m been around too many teams where one person was all they needed to wake everyone out of their funk.
    _______________________________
    Hugo – no I don’t want Molina as an everyday catcher because he slows down the game on offense. Even if he gets on base it could take 3 hits to get him in – same goes for Posada. Cervelli has shown that he knows how to make a contribution on offense even when he’s not hitting. I don’t like this Yankee team when they sit around waiting for the 3 run HR and that’s what the do with Posada in the lineup. It makes the team too streaky. With Cervelli and other players like him the Yankees have been scoring runs without getting hits. Those are the kinds of teams that do well in the playoffs against superior pitching.

  476. trisha - OPPC lifetime member June 15th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    This is what WAVE said:

    “but no more posting that the opposition has no arguments other than “that’s nonsense”, OK?”

    Since I never said that the opposition had no arguments other than “that’s nonsense” and you showed in the same post that I acknowledged CB, obviously your display is nonresponsive.

  477. G June 15th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    “Then what happened last season? Posada barely played and the Yankees went home in October.”

    The Yankees lost because of an inconsistent offense, NOT because Posada wasnt catching. The bullpen was brilliant last year, for the first time in how many years? The yankees were able to win 89 games with Rasner and Ponson starting. Thats crazy!! They cant win with Wang or Burnett this year. Their pitching was actually not bad last year, but u cant trust

  478. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    Ghost, I’ve been impressed with Cervelli’s ability to put the bat on the ball. He’s gotten some cheap hits because of this. I’ve often said you never know what can happen if you simply put the ball in play. However, he has about 50 at-bats in his entire career. Zero homers. And it’s pretty doubtful that he’d continue to hit near .300 if he were playing every day. Pitchers would find his weaknesses, and he’d have to adjust. Maybe he would. More likely, it would take him a while. But even if he did, he does not provide even close to what Posada does offensively. Not even close.

    Two years ago, when Posada had his best season, he was probably our best clutch hitter. You now seem to be blaming Posada for the “sit around and wait for the 3-run HR” mentality.

    I think you should just stop digging. Every time you post you dig yourself deeper by making comments that — whether you mean to or not — seem to denigrate Posada’s “game-calling” ability, blame him singly for a homer-happy mentality, etc.

  479. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    Hey G, how about 2005, when we had Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon as 2/5 of our rotation, with Posada catching, and made the playoffs? So Posada gets slammed for pitchers not living up to their resumes or hype so far this year, but no credit for when they do, or exceed it?

  480. rover June 15th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

    The yankees are best served with Po doing what he’s been doing for his career. You sit him or dh hime when someone else takes his job in it entirety not some perceived notion that game calling makes any difference. Posada each and every day at this time in history gives the yankees the best opp to win. End of story.

  481. Sandy June 15th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    Re: the Posada-Molina-Cervelli Cunundrum

    I agree with Pete that Cervelli would be useful to be kept up even if Posada and Molina are both healthy. Cervelli is not only a fine defensive and game-calling catcher but he adds spirit to the team. He can bunt and run and make clutch hits. He has a rare instinct for the game. Did you see him slide into first base on Sunday for an infield hit? When is the last time you saw someone slide into first base! Did you see him pick up A-Rod’s bat after he scored on Friday night so that Damon coming in behind him wouldn’t have to worry about it being in the way if he needed to slide?

    And Cervelli is YOUNG. He has a FUTURE. Posada is 37 for crying out loud. That is even older for a catcher than it is for any other position player.

  482. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    Hugo stop making our discussion into a black and white issue. I’m not anti-Posada, I’m just being a realist. When Posada went down last year so did the Yankees season. Do you want to have that happen again? If not then they need to develop an alternative in case he goes down again this year and that is Cervelli. I don’t blame Posada for the 3 run HR mentality. I blame Torre and Giambi. With that one signing Torre had forgotten exactly how the Yankees won those 4 championships and the mistake has been repeated ever since. Posada used to be a great hit and run guy, he used to get to third on a base hit. He doesn’t do that anymore so with him in the lineup or on base Girardi has to play for the big hit, that’s just a fact. Cervelli is not going to give him the 3 run home run so he uses him to advance the runners. So instead of Posada hitting into a demoralizing DP (which happens a lot more than the 3 run hr) Cervelli bunts the runners into scoring position for the next guy who just needs to think about making contact instead of getting a hit to score a run. These are the subtle differences between good teams and great teams. Great teams always score when given 1st and 2nd with no outs. This in turn takes pressure off the pitching staff.

  483. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    Ghost, again, here’s what YOU said: “I don’t like this Yankee team when they sit around waiting for the 3 run HR and that’s what the do with Posada in the lineup.”

    So, again, you are the one who said that it’s what the Yankees do with Posada in the lineup.
    If you didn’t mean him specifically, OK, but you said it.

    I never said they should send Cervelli down, or not develop him. That is not what this is about.

    Posada has hit 9 homers so far this year. I really, really doubt he’s grounded into even half as many DPs. Now, I know you said 3-run homer, but I’ll take a well-timed solo HR too.
    Look, I hate when the Yanks can’t advance runners too, and i’ve commented on it many times. This is a thread about Posada, with a lot of people saying he has forgotten how to call games or has never been good at calling games. So when you bring this stuff up, it sure sounds like you are blaming all this stuff on him. The way you worded it makes it sound that way.

  484. G June 15th, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    http://boogiedownbaseball.blog.....torch.html

  485. yankee in virginia June 15th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    It takes all kinds of fans and opinions to make a blog or sustain interest in a team or sport. Despoite all the analytic work done over the past 20 years it is still very difficult to rate defensive play — and it has taken that long to focus on productive at bats vs BA, so it will be another 20 before we have sufficient statistical value to separate the chaff from the wheat – not preachin, just sayin –

    but in that regard Posada despite being held back 2 years by Girardi has near HOF stats – if he can stay healthy and be productive he might just make it.

    It is stupid to have him out of the line-up on a day like yesterday – day game, no game today; night game tomorrow. Maybe Girardi is a genious and he was getting Joirge maximum rest befdore going NL with no DH.

    If not that reason then I know the rest is probably useful but it is not s situation where the Yankees are 10 games in front, riding a 10 game winning streak. Posada needs to hit esp with ARod and Matsui questionable at the plate.

    Cervelli had a terrific game — he hasn’t displayed power and he might revert to his minor league trends, but for nowthe Yankeeshave caught lightening — he needs to stay and play – Molina needs to sit – he is a huge hole in the lineup.

    while I am at it wang needs to learn to pitch in the pen — we argued for Burnett because we feared the consequences of the foot injury on the mechanics – robbing the power sinker which was the only thing keeping CMW on the mound. even as he was a success we wonderered at how long he could sustain the heavy sinker – and we saw what happens in 2005-6-7-8 when he didn’t have it; and hen patient teams stayed off it.

    Hughes has the tools to be a #1 or #2 — wang does not — he could develop them — do it is the pen — don’t write him off but do it in the pen

  486. D.B. June 15th, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    trish, how about scott podsednick instead? He’s being tearing it up lately

  487. The Ghost June 15th, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    Hugo Posada has only grounded into 3 DPs this year but he had 18 in 2007 and led the league in 2002 and 2004. I blame that mostly on Torre’s reluctance to hit and run as much as Girardi does – who still doesn’t do it 1/4 as much as he should. But my point was not specific to Posada but the more “big” bats in the lineup the less leeway Girardi has to hit and run or bunt runners over. I really am not a fan of having an all-star at every position. When everyone has the potential to jack one out then that’s all a manager can do is wait for the big hit or else he’ll be second guessed into oblivion “Why paid Jeter 15 million to bunt!…”

    For the record I never said that Posada has forgotten how to call games I’ve just said that’s never been his strong suit. He’s always been an excellent OFFENSIVE catcher. The only thing I can say he is the best in the game at is catching short hops and applying the tag. He may be the best I’ve ever seen at that but then he’s probably near the bottom at blocking the plate – which brings us back to Cervelli – who hit everyone’s radar by sacrificing his body in a meaningless spring training game a year ago. This guy has shown me nothing but moxie in every game I’ve seen him play, I really think he’s something special and since the Yankees have no one else who is close they need to develop him now if for nothing else but insurance for Posada. Posada should understand that – or be made to understand that.

  488. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 6:37 pm

    We are agreed on Cervelli’s moxy. And on the need to manufacture runs and move runners.

    Have not seen or read anything that suggests Posada has voiced anything against “developing” Cervelli. In fact, I’m sure he’s helping in that development.

    I do not think that means playing Cervelli more than what he’s getting now. When you have a catcher with Posada’s switch-hitting power and ability at the plate, it gives you a big advantage over other teams. Unless and until Posada is deemed by the team to be a defensive detriment that outweighs what he brings offensively, he should be behind the plate, imo.

    And I don’t care if he hit into 18 dps in 2007. He had an amazing offensive season that year. I included his ’07 stats in a post above somewhere.

  489. Maria June 15th, 2009 at 7:13 pm

    Sandy, people don’t slide into first base because they get there faster if they don’t. On that particular play, it didn’t even look like Cervelli was completely committed to the slide. Not that i don’t like the kid, I just don’t think that has been his best moment to mention so far from this season.

  490. Subway Squawkers June 15th, 2009 at 7:54 pm

    SJ44, I’d agree with you on Posada’s ability to catch longer if he hadn’t been breaking down in the last two years. And Father Time marches on for all of the players, no matter when they started in the majors, or how long they’ve been a catcher.

    Is Posada going to be an effective full-time catcher in two years? Doubtful. Just as Girardi groomed Posada for the catching role, it might be time for Posada to start grooming Cervelli.

  491. Jay June 15th, 2009 at 8:57 pm

    So let’s see:

    The statistics that show that Yankee pitchers have given up far more runs per 9 innings with Posada behind the plate are irrelevant — despite covering nearly 40% of the season and being adjusted for Wang’s terrible early season starts (to which Posada may or may not have contributed).

    The issues that CC, AJ, and Joba have with Posada are all the fault of CC, AJ, and Joba, not “The Great Posada”.

    And the fact that nobody on this board seems able to name a single team in the history of major league baseball that’s won the World Series with a catcher who is 37 years old or older is irrelevant. (My apologies in advance iif somebody listed one/several and I missed it.)

    Like Trisha says, the primary counter argument is is that everybody who thinks Posada is a liability behind the plate — no matter what facts, pitchers, or statistics may suggest — is stupid.

    And one poster even criticizes somebody for the suggestion by saying that he wouldn’t have the guts to go into the Yankee locker room and say it in front of the players. Based on that standard, every player would play until they were eligible for Social Security. But, of course, there’s no statistical evidence that a team of 50-something year old players with a 65-year old Posada would be at a disadvantage. If they didn’t win, and they had a much higher ERA when 65-year old Posada was behind the plate — even if it was the case for 10 years running — it wouldn’t be statistically significant or relevant.

    Got it. Nothing to see here. Move along. We’re all just stupid.

  492. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 9:32 pm

    no, not all of you.

    What issues with CC and Joba? Joba was asked about it today and laughed it off, saying “I probably shouldn’t think so much.”

    So you say CC and Joba have issues with Posada. Where did you get that? Out of your ***? What has CC said? Joba? Where was it published? And for that matter, what has AJ said about having issues with Posada? And if AJ prefers to throw to a rookie, why is that automatically Posada’s fault? AJ doesn’t have the most stellar reputation of being a team guy. But you throw around the term ‘facts’ a lot. What “facts” do you have that tell us the team is better off without Posada catching? 15-20 games this year when Posada was hurt? The conjecture that no one has won the world series (you think) with a catcher his age? Other than the incredibly large sample size of about 15-20 games, do you have ANYTHING? Or are we just supposed to fall down and say, “Oh yeah, this poster on this fanboard knows more than Girardi, Pettitte, Rivera, Clemens, Wells…” etc., etc., etc.

    No, I don’t think all of you are stupid. Just the ones who make stuff up and think they know better than the manager, the players, and the team.

  493. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 9:45 pm

    I love it. Now Posada “may or may not have contributed” to Wang’s troubles. So Posada is responsible for badly pitched games (of course, any games he caught in which the pitchers pitched well were some aberration or they did it despite him), the fact that the Yankees play for the homerun and can’t move runners, the fact that the yankees haven’t gotten to the world series since ’03, the fact that Wang lost the release point on his sinker after his injury, global warming, World War 2, the Lindbergh baby kidnapping and Milli Vanilli. Did I miss anything?

  494. Subway Squawkers June 15th, 2009 at 9:51 pm

    Dutch Hugo:

    Joba, A.J. and CC aren’t going to hold a press conference saying that they would prefer throwing to somebody else than Posada. That’s not how it works. But it is curious that A.J. went with somebody who has never caught him this Sunday, in a critical game for his career, rather than Posada.

    It’s also curious that CC had Cervelli catch him on Thursday – another critical game for the Yanks. CC has only had Jorge catch him one out of three times since Posada got off the DL. And both CC’s and A.J.’s numbers are much better with other catchers than Posada. At any rate, the logical time to have given Posada off was either Friday or Saturday (day game after a night game.) Yet he was off Thursday and Sunday. Why was that?

  495. Sarah June 15th, 2009 at 9:53 pm

    The statement that Posada has become predictable has been pooh- poohed by posters. Well, if pitchers are told that they have to pitch what Posada calls for won’t this scenario lead to predicting by the batter of the next pitch. In Joba’s last game one of the announcers said : Joba’ last pitch was a slider so he should pitch a fastball and the batter has to just wait for it. He was right on.

    Joba usually isn’t hit very hard in his games. The balls are easily fielded and/or caught. Plus he is a good fielder himself.

    I recognize that there are some here who have played ball at various levels and do know the ins & outs of the game. But again, if the numbers are positive for one player than another, shouldn’t that be a viable consideration?

    Cervelli’s demeanor behind the plate is confident and supportive. Posada’s manner is herky jerky and rush, rush which is not conducive to a young pitcher or a pitcher with a slower delivery. Yes, he has a storied history with the Yankees and should be admired for that. But he is also aging and so are his skills. His bat is still OK.

    If the team is more relaxed, the pitcher is pitching well and it looks like a win and Posada is N0T behind the plate and it happens more than once. I think it speaks volumes.

    With credit to Ed H.:

    Ed H. June 13th, 2009 at 12:23 am
    Posada could be right about every pitch he calls for Joba. And it wouldn’t matter. If Joba has no confidence in Jorge – after working with him for parts of three seasons now – pitching to Jorge is not going to get Joba to where the Yanks need him to be. He should pitch to Molina.

  496. Sarah June 15th, 2009 at 10:02 pm

    Hugo – Joba and Jorge do have issues. Do you think Joba would bad mouth a team mate in an interview? And all you pro Posada fans please stop calling other fans on this board stupid. It us a poor choice of words.

  497. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    Squawkers: Why are you asking me why posada was given that day off? You’re the one in the camp that seems to know everything. You state that CC ‘had’ Cervelli catch him on Thursday. Do you know that it was CC’s decision? Really? Because that’s the first i’ve heard of it. I always thought the manager made those decisions.

    And again, you cite that their “numbers are much better” with someone else catching…. you are using a couple of starts to base your argument on. A really small sample size.

    Look, if those guys truly prefer Cervelli or whoever to Jorge, then we will find that out. That’s something that the manager, coaches, and pitchers and Posada will all decide and have to deal with. But we don’t know any of that yet. AJ may prefer someone else. Again, why is that Posada’s fault automatically? Like many others have pointed out, AJ’s rep. has some kinks in it. But the notion that Posada is to blame for everything, that Posada has forgotten how to call games, is ludicrous. And I have to think that Girardi, whose job is on the line, is going to make the decision to catch the guy he thinks gives us the best chance to win. Those are the people who know the truth. The people on this board? Not so much.

  498. Minnesota Yankee Fan June 15th, 2009 at 10:08 pm

    Jorge is my favorite player and brings alot to the game when he is in the lineup. Great post Pete. I know why you get paid the big bucks! Go Yanks!

  499. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 10:11 pm

    Sarah: “Hugo – Joba and Jorge do have issues. Do you think Joba would bad mouth a team mate in an interview? And all you pro Posada fans please stop calling other fans on this board stupid. It us a poor choice of words.”

    OK, so now we can’t even believe what Joba himself says. We have to trust Sarah — or whoever on this board — because they can — what — read Joba’s mind?

    Joba was asked about this issue, and he laughed it off. I understand he’s not going to badmouth Posada in the press. But according to you, and a lot of other people on this board, virtually every starter we have other than Pettitte hates pitching to Posada! So, why are they still pitching to him?

    And let’s say that Joba had some issues with Posada during the game. So what? Why does that automatically mean that Posada’s the one in the wrong, and needs to lose his job? Maybe it’s a headstrong 23-year-old starter who thinks he knows everything. You want to learn something about catchers and pitchers? Read Randy l’s posts earlier in this thread.

    People who know what the situation actually is, like Girardi, the pitchers, the coaches, will make the decision. And all I hear from many posters on this board are rumors, made-up stuff (like Posada has a weak arm and can’t throw anyone out anymore, which you, Sarah, tried to use in a post yesterday), and conjecture based on a few games. Let the professionals decide this and we’ll see who’s right and who’s wrong.

  500. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 10:16 pm

    Here’s a prime example of what I mean. Sarah says:

    “Cervelli’s demeanor behind the plate is confident and supportive. Posada’s manner is herky jerky and rush, rush which is not conducive to a young pitcher or a pitcher with a slower delivery. Yes, he has a storied history with the Yankees and should be admired for that. But he is also aging and so are his skills.”

    First, OK, we shouldn’t trust the manager of the team, a former catcher, or his judgment on who the catcher should be. We should trust a fan on a fanboard, who doesn’t like posada because his “manner is herky jerky and rush, rush”… ????

    And posada is “aging and so are his skills.”

    What skills show signs of aging? I mean, of course he is getting older (aren’t we all?), and the injuries are something that have been an issue for him the last couple of years. But his arm seems fine (.319 caught stealing percentage), his bat has been fine (on pace to hit .288 with 34 homers and 105 ribbies – a great year by anyone’s estimation). What skills have diminished? Some have questioned his “game calling,” but even if you buy that, how does that diminish with age???

  501. Subway Squawkers June 15th, 2009 at 10:31 pm

    Dutch Hugo:

    “Why are you asking me why posada was given that day off? You’re the one in the camp that seems to know everything.”

    Why so combative? I have been nothing but polite to you and everybody else in this thread.

    “You state that CC ‘had’ Cervelli catch him on Thursday. Do you know that it was CC’s decision? Really? Because that’s the first i’ve heard of it. I always thought the manager made those decisions.”

    Aside from the fact that big names frequently get to choose who catches them (Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, etc.), why do you think if, as you say, that it was Girardi’s decision, that he gave perhaps the most critical start of the year – Thursday’s Sabathia game – to Cervelli? Posada had only caught three days in a row, so it wasn’t because he needed an off day. I would like to hear an answer from somebody on it. And then, after two days of catching, he got another day off on Sunday, when Monday was already an off day.

    “But the notion that Posada is to blame for everything, that Posada has forgotten how to call games, is ludicrous.”

    Nobody has said anything of the sort. We all acknowledge that he’s a great hitter, and has been a great catcher. But he hasn’t had a good rapport with numerous pitchers. And at some point, it can’t all be their fault. Like you said, we’ll see soon enough who Cervelli or Molina continues to catch for.

  502. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 10:34 pm

    I’m not assuming anything. You’re the one who stated that CC “had” Posada catch him. I have continued to say that WE don’t know. I notice you didn’t answer the question of where you heard that. You just assumed?

  503. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 10:36 pm

    And Squawkers, go back and read the thread if you think nobody has claimed that Posada calls bad games, or that he’s responsible for all these things. Go back and read some of the posts. Then tell me that “nobody has said anything of the sort.”

  504. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 10:40 pm

    By the way, Girardi has been ultra cautious with Posada, so resting him after catching three days in a row is not something out of the ordinary for him. After Posada’s surgery, and dl-stint, he has been resting him a lot. And he has been mixing and matching with Matsui and others using pitching matchups to see who gets a day off when. So to jump to the conclusion that CC “had” Cervelli catch him is, I think, wrong.

  505. Subway Squawkers June 15th, 2009 at 10:41 pm

    “I’m not assuming anything. You’re the one who stated that CC “had” Posada catch him. I have continued to say that WE don’t know. I notice you didn’t answer the question of where you heard that. You just assumed?”

    Again, CC isn’t going to hold a press conference saying that he prefers Cervelli. But why did Cervelli, not Posada, catch Thursday? Wouldn’t the Yankees want Posada’s catching – and bat – in the lineup for that game, so that they didn’t get swept by Boston? What is the explanation for that?

    And CC is the highest-paid pitcher in history. Do you really think he has no say on who catches for him? C’mon now.

  506. Subway Squawkers June 15th, 2009 at 10:44 pm

    “By the way, Girardi has been ultra cautious with Posada, so resting him after catching three days in a row is not something out of the ordinary for him. After Posada’s surgery, and dl-stint, he has been resting him a lot. And he has been mixing and matching with Matsui and others using pitching matchups to see who gets a day off when. So to jump to the conclusion that CC “had” Cervelli catch him is, I think, wrong.”

    Thank for writing an explanation.

  507. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 10:46 pm

    Squawkers, again, I’m not the one pretending to know everything around here. That’s the managers decision. I would think that if Girardi thinks Posada is not the best option behind the plate for, as you put it, such an important game, then we will be seeing less of Posada behind the plate. Maybe Girardi didn’t think it was the end of the world, and that Posada’s body needed a day off after three games in a row. As I said, that wouldn’t be odd given how often he’s been rested this year.

    As to whether CC has a say in who catches him, again, you are guessing, or PRETENDING like you know something that you don’t. If you know something, let’s hear it. CC requested that Cervelli catch him? Because that’s what you’re implying.

  508. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 10:47 pm

    When does CC pitch next? People here are suggesting that CC, AJ, Joba all don’t like pitching to Posada and would prefer pitching to Cervelli. So, we shall see what happens the next time those guys pitch, eh?

  509. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 10:50 pm

    “Thank for writing an explanation.”

    It’s not an explanation. I don’t know. I’m guessing on what the reasons might be. Just as you are. The difference is, I’m not pretending like I know something about the situation.

  510. Subway Squawkers June 15th, 2009 at 10:53 pm

    “It’s not an explanation. I don’t know. I’m guessing on what the reasons might be. Just as you are. The difference is, I’m not pretending like I know something about the situation.”

    Actually, you kind of have. But really, this argument is played out for today. Let’s agree to disagree.

  511. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 10:56 pm

    How have I?

  512. Dutch Hugo June 15th, 2009 at 10:59 pm

    At any rate, I’m really just saying that we don’t know, and we should let the people who do know make the decisions.

    Peace.

  513. Jones June 15th, 2009 at 11:15 pm

    Amen to that! Thats all I got to say.

  514. Payton June 15th, 2009 at 11:26 pm

    I would think Posada would get much more respect than that. Its like people just want to kick him to the curb, because now they don’t have to worry, they got Cervelli. Hes was injured for a while n& when he was gone everyone was complaining about how we need to get him back. He’s a born leader & someone who should be called Captain. He’s great on the field just as he is off the field. I’ll take his bat any day over the other catchers. I like that he protects his pitchers with his at bats, which is what a good catcher does. Thats not a knock on Cervelli or Molina. They both have done outstanding.

  515. Payton June 15th, 2009 at 11:32 pm

    Also Pete, I see what your saying about carrying 3 catchers but wouldn’t it also be bad for Cervelli, in a way, because he wouldn’t get to play often. Wouldn’t it be better if he got playing time in Scranton? So he’s not just sitting on the bench? Unless they PH him a lot.

  516. RenataD June 15th, 2009 at 11:48 pm

    “I’m not too sure what people hope to accomplish by saying Posada sucks behind the plate. Do you want him off the team and Cervelli starting? You all can’t possibly be that stupid can you?”

    Oh its possible. Posada is a leader with much success over the years. I can’t beleive people want to close the door on him. Its like his leadership, success, honors, don’t matter. They needed Posada badly last year. Like someone posted before, how can you compare him with Cervelli? He’s been the catcher since the 90s, thats like an insult for him.

  517. brent June 16th, 2009 at 12:15 am

    http://www.nytimes.com 6-15-09 has this very article under sports,about Pasada.

  518. lil' m June 16th, 2009 at 12:47 am

    Pete: Thanks for this post refuting the ongoing nonsense about Posada. A few anti-Posada arguments attempt to present some kind of fact-based information in support, albeit unconvincing, of the position. However, for the most part, the anti-Posada case consists of emotionally-driven and baseless speculation presented as insight and virtual fact. It relies heavily on unwarranted assumptions about the mindset and motivations of Posada and various pitchers in order to conclude wrongly that he is somehow a detriment behind the plate. Essentially, it’s an argument based on gossip and fueled by petulance, and your post does a great job of exposing if for the silliness that it is. Thanks again.

  519. another opinion June 16th, 2009 at 1:08 am

    The Devil is in the details,always!

  520. Maximillian June 16th, 2009 at 1:26 am

    I love the comments that talk about having “proof”, or “facts”. Its comical when people can be that idiotic. I must admit I’m even more idiotic for posting and feeding the anti-posada’s so they can bring more of their beloved “facts” out.

    As far people usuing Moose as their argument for the “catcher battle”. Moose didn’t like anybody or anything. Its like one of those people that hates everything and lives in the dark.

    In the words of Michael Kay “see ya!”

  521. new york yat June 16th, 2009 at 2:08 am

    No one has effectively countered the Baseball Prospectus findings. No one. So, Jay, you cite stats that purport to prove your point, yet one of the game’s most respected statistical resources says no stats exist that can reliably prove your point.

    . As for those who wish to rely on the observations of ballplayers-turned-broadcasters over reliable statisitcal analysis, for the love of Bill James, it has consistently been shown that broadcasters and sportswriters reach some pretty screwed-up conclusions by relying on gutty, gritty observations instead of what can be reliably measured…

  522. Jay June 16th, 2009 at 6:26 am

    new york yat,

    I NEVER say the stats I quote prove my point. It’s completely impossible to prove anything with stats. If the Yankees’ pitchers had an ERA north of 20 for five straight years with Posada behind the plate and an ERA below 1 with everyone else for that same five year period, that STILL wouldn’t prove my point. I would find it very persuasive. But it wouldn’t be proof.

    Like the old Mark Twain quote, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. We’re all free to interpret them as we see fit.

    But I’m still waiting to hear one team in the history of Major League Baseball that’s won the World Series with a catcher who was 37 years old or older.

    In the absence of anyone answering my question, I’ll assume that the answer is that there has never been one.

    Have any of you who pooh pooh every statistic about the Yankees giving up far more runs with Posada behind the plate, every indication that CC and AJ and Joba are more comfortable with someone else behind the plate, and the lack of success of teams with catchers who are that old THAT THERE MIGHT BE A REASON WHY?

    As for Baseball Prospectus, neither I nor anyone else can prove that their article is the BS that I think it is any more than any of you can prove that the Yankees’ pitchers’ penchant for giving up WAY more runs this year with Posada behind the plate and the apparent preference of at least two or three Yankees’ starters not to have Posada behind the plate is the BS that YOU think it is.

    But I think it’s worth noting that the Red Sox pitchers reportedly LOVE pitching to Varitek and believe that he ENHANCES their performance — in stark contrast to Posada. But maybe the guy at Baseball Prospectus is more knowledgeable than the Red Sox, CC, and AJ and everybody else who thinks that a catcher — who, after all, calls and handles every pitch — is one of the key cornerstone defensive positions (along with shortstop and center fielder) that greatly influences a team’s success or failure.

    At least Pete is consistent. Early on in the negotiations with Pettitte, he said: “The big lefty said Friday night he wants a one-year deal and he doesn’t want to go anywhere else. So give him a little pay cut (say to $12 or $13 million) and get it over with.” And if you check the blog, you’ll see that he thought the Marte deal made sense. I suspect he thought paying A-Rod $30 million per year for 10 years (through age 42!), extending a 36-year old Posada at $13 million per year for four years, and extending a 38 year old Mariano Rivera for three years at the highest annual rate ever paid a reliever was a good idea, too.

    If I’m correct, he and the Yankees have shown far less respect for Father Time than the Red Sox and I. And so far, it looks to me like the Red Sox have a lot more to show for their strategy than the Yankees. By allowing themselves to be outbid for Pedro, they avoided that land mine. By factoring in Varitek’s age (and his subpar 2008) they paid a fraction of what the Yankees paid for Posada. And at best, Posada’s time on the DL last year and A-Rod’s this year should make it clear that a history of not being injured doesn’t protect a player from the ravages of Father Time. Even Rivera, who has performed FAR better than I thought was likely last year, is beginning to show signs of being human as he approaches the 40-year mark.

    Pointing to our players’ past achievements and successes as an indication that they’re above scrutiny for their performance this year is a fool’s game. While it’s not one the Red Sox play themselves, I’m sure they love seeing us play it. I’m sure they hope that the Yankees revel in those glories until Posada and Jeter and Damon are well into their 40s and they win a few more World Series trophies while ours are out playing on the field.

    Again, can anyone name a team that’s ever won a World Series with their primary catcher being one who was 37 years old or older? If not, doesn’t that tell you something? Oh wait, it’s not statistically significant. It’s not proof. Right. And it won’t be proof either — or even the only cause — when the Red Sox continue to beat us like a cheap mule with a payroll far less than ours in the years to come.

  523. Jay June 16th, 2009 at 7:23 am

    By the way, if it hasn’t been done before, I wouldn’t be shocked if Varitek becomes the first catcher aged 37 years old or older to be the primary catcher on a World Series champion team — although I believe the odds are stacked against him (despite everything I believe he brings to the table as a catcher). For whatever it might be worth, Baseball Prospectus shows him only getting BETTER with age so far.

    Incidentally, iIt shows Posada as having deteriorated from contributing a LOT behind the plate to contributing relatively little — at least with his glove — although, needless to say, it still shows him contributing mightily with his bat.

    Contradicting my position further, Baseball Prospectus believes that Carlton Fisk was an excellent defensive catcher at age 37 — unlike Johny Bench, who they suggest was nothing special behind the plate by age 33, and Yogi Berra, who they apparently suggest began a rapid decline at age 37.

  524. shawn the shrink June 16th, 2009 at 7:47 am

    “Pete: Thanks for this post refuting the ongoing nonsense about Posada. A few anti-Posada arguments attempt to present some kind of fact-based information in support, albeit unconvincing, of the position. However, for the most part, the anti-Posada case consists of emotionally-driven and baseless speculation presented as insight and virtual fact. It relies heavily on unwarranted assumptions about the mindset and motivations of Posada and various pitchers in order to conclude wrongly that he is somehow a detriment behind the plate. Essentially, it’s an argument based on gossip and fueled by petulance, and your post does a great job of exposing if for the silliness that it is. Thanks again.”

    Wow lil’ m.

    So here is what someone greatly respected by Pete, Tyler Kepner, has to say about Posada:

    “One unsettling fact for the Yankees is the difference when Jorge Posada catches. With Posada behind the plate, the Yankees’ pitchers have a 6.31 E.R.A. The combined E.R.A. with Francisco Cervelli, Jose Molina and Kevin Cash is 3.81.”

    And quoting Girardi: “Cervelli and Molina are more one-sided, to the defensive side. I can’t really say why there’s a difference. It could be sample size. It could be that the other guys are just better defensive players.”

    Unless of course you think Tyler Kepner is just perpetuating an argument “based on gossip and fueled on petulance”?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06.....ref=sports

    And here’s something that posted on last night’s forum, citing a 6-time award winning fantasy baseball writer, as part of his evaluation of some of the older players in the game:

    *Jorge Posada, C, Yankees: Age 37. I’m a little skeptical that Posada will make it through the season without another DL stint, and he’s a well-below-average defensive catcher and game caller at this point, but he can still hit. He’s drilled four homers in 11 games since coming back from injury May 29 and seems sufficiently recovered from the shoulder problems that saw his OPS drop nearly 200 points last season. He’s still available in nearly 5 percent of ESPN.com leagues, and that shouldn’t be so.*

    http://sports.espn.go.com/fant.....wski090612

    And so it appears that those of us who continued to say we had questions and concerns were right on the money to have those concerns. Or at least there are minds greater than those posting on the lohud blog who have brought out the same concerns. It’s a real pity that some on the other side felt the need to be so nasty and demeaning in their responses to what we were posting. It looks like those people specifically have ended up with some egg on their faces.

  525. FranktheTank June 16th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    Jay give it a rest please.

  526. Easy (E)ddie June 16th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    Blaming Posada seems to be the “trend” going around. I personally feel that its absolutely ludicrous that people think Posada is the problem. Dare I say it, its beyond stupidity. Give the guy some respect. Statistics shamistics, that doesn’t prove a thing. I’d rather have the guy behind the plate that has years and years of experience and with that superior bat. He didn’t just forget how to catch. Give me a break. Don’t use that tired “the pitchers don’t want him to catch” defense. Thats another thing that boggles my mind. This whole thing is completely outrageous.

    Like someone else before, this is a guy that should be called Captain. Sorry Pete, but your defense of Posada has very little affect on the Posada truthers.

  527. Dutch Hugo June 16th, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    shawn the shrink, keppner’s piece had nothing to say or add, other than repeating the same statistics everyone else is throwing around, which are all based on very small sample size.

    And, you really want to base your argument on what a FANTASY baseball writer has to say? Who bleeping cares what some fantasy geek has to say? This is real baseball we’re talking about here, not a bunch of …. people…. playing some silly game in their office or basement.

    If you want to believe what some “award-winning fantasy baseball writer” has to say over the manager of the team, former catcher Joe Girardi, the coaches, pitchers like Andy Pettitte, Mariano Rivera, Roger Clemens, etc., be my guest. Just don’t try and foist it off as some authoritative voice on real baseball.

    Oh, and CC’s pitching today. The catcher: Posada. So much for CC wanting to use a personal catcher other than Posada.

  528. Dutch Hugo June 16th, 2009 at 6:46 pm

    Jay: “every indication that CC and AJ and Joba are more comfortable with someone else behind the plate”

    Again: Where did you get these “indications”???? Out of your a**???? I mean, I read what AJ said. Maybe he’s more comfortable throwing to someone else. Big deal. It happens. But CC? Joba? Joba shaking Posada off a few times? Again, that’s baseball. And when asked about it, Joba laughed it off and offered a mea culpa. As far as CC, I’ve heard nothing, and Jorge’s catching him tonight. So what “indications”? Other than exist in your own mind?

    This is the problem we have with your arguments. YOU think you can read CC’s mind, Joba’s mind, etc. YOU claim there are these “indications” yet you cite NO source other than your own imagination.

    We have what Joba has said himself. Yet you think you know something he’s not saying. How do you know this insider information? Do you hang out with Joba? Are you hiding under the desk at his shrink’s? What?

    So the challenge is out there. What “indications”? Beyond just what some fan on a fanboard “suspects”. EVIDENCE.

  529. Dutch Hugo June 16th, 2009 at 6:54 pm

    And for Jay and all the other people throwing around the 37-year old catcher never won the world series argument, how many 37-year-old catchers have there been, ever, to start for a team?

    What are the odds that any team will win the world series in a given year?

    Factor that in with how few 37-year-old catchers have ever even caught for pennant-contending teams, and you might have a more accurate statistic to look at.

    That said, is there some rule that says a 37-year-old catcher can’t win the world series? Just because it’s never been done before, should that mean that every team with a catcher that age should just dump him automatically? What happens to a catcher after the age of 36 that precludes him from winning a world series? You are aware that these catchers are not robots, but human beings, and everyone is different. Some started catching at a very early age, so they have more wear and tear. Others, like Posada, started catching very late.

    This argument has very little validity, imo. Every year, in some sport, someone is doing something that has never been done before. You can draw up arbitrary numbers and claim that “this has never been done before” and try to use it to advance your point. What you are saying is that Posada is too old to catch. Yet, what part of his game is breaking down? His bat still has batspeed. He’s on pace to hit .288 with 34 homers and 105 rbis. His arm still works pretty well, he has a .319 caught stealing percentage, 6th in all of MLB if he qualified in games played. What part of his game has broken down?

    Game calling? That’s what a lot of you are claiming. How does that relate to his age? Has he gone senile and forgotten how to call a game?
    What?

  530. Dutch Hugo June 16th, 2009 at 6:59 pm

    Finally, Jay, don’t you think that maybe Joe Girardi, who was a catcher, would maybe have just a little better idea than you do whether Posada is too old to catch?

    I do. In fact, I think he has a LOT better idea than you do.

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