Cano steps out of the shadows
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jun 17, 2009 
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It’s easy to lose track of Robinson Cano sometimes.
The Yankees have so many star players populating their roster that Cano can go overlooked. Then there nights like last night when you remember that this guy had the ability to be just as good as those star players. Maybe better.
Cano went 4 for 4 and drove in two runs including the game-winner. He also made three or four plays in the field that were outstanding, including one in the eighth inning.
Cano ranged far to his left to track down a ball off the bat of Ryan Zimmerman, turned his body and made a strong throw from an awkward angle to Mark Teixeira.
“That maybe saved us,” said Brian Bruney, who was pitching. “If he doesn’t make that play, they have two guys on and maybe something happens.”
At the plate, Cano smoked a double to center to give the Yankees the lead in the seventh inning. After A-Rod struck out with Teixeira on second, Cano belted a 2-2 pitch over the head of center fielder Elijah Dukes.
That was a long at-bat for him. Cano had first-pitch singles his first three times up. Cano’s annoys a lot of fans because he lacks patience. He seems to hack at whatever pitch is in the same zip code. But it works for him.
He’s hitting .467 when he puts the first pitch in play and .231 on three-ball counts. For him, patience is not a virtue.
“I just want something in the middle,” Cano said.
Middle inside? Middle away? Middle high?
“Just middle,” he said. “Something I can hit.”
Cano leads the Yankees with a .309 batting average. He’s second in doubles (16) and RBI (41). But a low on-base percentage (.339 thanks to 13 walks in 277 plate appearances) holds down his overall effectiveness. His greatest skill is the ability to put the bat on the ball. It’s also his greatest detriment.
Yogi Berra was the same way. He walked only 44 times in 594 plate appearances in his 1951 MVP season.
Cano is 26 and this would seem to be the time he starts to figure it out and becomes the consistent force the Yankees believe he can be. Every night is not going to be 4 for 4. But if you watched that game last night, you remembered just how good he can be.
Don’t cha know?
It’s amazing how many people wanted Cano gone last year and said he was lazy (aka what Dominican players get labeled) and he wasn’t a championship player.
Now those same posters are either quiet as a mouse or singing his praises.
raymagnetic, agree entirely. Where are all the people who wanted Kemp for Cano?
He hasn’t had as many lapses in the field this year as he has had in years past, either. I think that’s a big improvement out of his game so far in 2009, and one of the reasons why the team’s defense in general has improved since last year (despite the 10 games out of 12 with errors streak).
Cano is awesome.
I have always been a big Cano fan but in the offseason I did think the Yanks should consider a Kemp for Cano trade. I stand by that too, if the Yanks could have gotten Kemp for Cano it would have been a great trade.
I’m happy with who we have though, Robbie is a great player.
Nice job,Pete!
Screw all the teeball players who post!
Cano currently has the 4th highest OPS of any second baseman in baseball and the 2nd highest of any 2nd baseman in the AL. Now that’s somewhat misleading because Utley of course is #1 and he’s in his own stratosphere.
But Cano has am 843 OPS with a .504 Slg %. He doesn’t get on base that often – that’s the limitation to his game. But he’s hitting for average and for power. A .500 slg % from a second baseman is terrific and it gives you a large advantage over the second baseman the opposition is putting out there.
For comparison, Dustin Pedroia has an OPS of .775. His OBP is .387 but his Slg % has plummetted this year to .389. Cano is hitting .309 and Pedroia .296.
In the past Cano has always waited until June/ July to heat up. This year he got off to that scorching start but then cooled off a lot in May/ early June.
Let’s hope the Met’s series and the game last night signal Cano picking up his hitting in June once more and for the rest of this season.
Given his start, if he repeats the patter of summer performance he’s shown in the past he’s going to wind up having a tremendous year.
And I know his UZR fielding stats aren’t great right now – but neighter are Tex’s. That’s either an issue of small samples or UZR just not doing a good job evaluating the right side of the yankees infield.
Cano and Tex have been outstanding defensively and if fielding bible stats were available at this time I’d expect them to reflect that.
And it was a good sign to see Robby continue playing well defensively even as he slumped.
Yeah honestly I’m starting to doubt UZR. It’s a good tool but it’s not the ultimate fielding stat. How is Gardner’s UZR so high? He doesn’t seem to cover much ground. Jeter’s looks abnormally high, Cano’s is too low, Tex is too low. As you said, Cano and Tex have been awesome defensively but their UZR doesn’t reflect that.
Cano has been having a great year and will hopefully be one of the great Yankee 2nd basemen. As he gets older I hope that his pitch selection gets better and that he continues to drive the balls to the gaps in left center. I’ve noticed that he’s been trying to pull the ball more and he pulls his head away. His strength is driving those balls opposite field. Now if he can only hit with the bases loaded…
Trying to understand defense seems to be difficult. As an example, look at the Nationals. Their infield strikes me as pretty tight (Nick Johnson, for example), yet they have an incredible number of errors and their team is rankes as having lousy defense.
I don’t understand how Tex can have a poor zone rating. I’ve seen most of the games, and he looks outstanding.
CB,
Their low UZR ratings is why I have no faith in that particular defensive metric system.
If you watch the games, Cano and Tex have played Gold Glove second and first base respectively.
They have been frighteningly good defensively all season.
For a defensive measuring system to not pick that up makes me unwilling to believe in such a system.
“Where are all the people who wanted Kemp for Cano?”
Before you ask that you should take a look at the season Kemp is having.
There’s a reason why the dodgers have done so well and Kemp is in the middle of that.
He’s having a wonderful year – better than Cano’s – at a more difficult defensive position (CF).
Kemp’s also played very well defensively for the dodgers. And he’s still learning how to play the game. He’s only 24. Cano is 26.
Kemp is younger than Brett Gardner.
I think getting benched last September was the best thing that could have happened to Robbie. He needed to learn the hard way that if you don’t play the game the way its supposed to be played- you won’t play
What does UZR stand for?
UZR (ultimate zone rating): The number of runs above or below average a fielder is in both range runs and error runs combined.
The only thing I don’t like about Kemp is his strikeouts. He gets on base more than Cano, steals more bases and has the potential for more power but those K’s bother me.
Cano will be in the hunt for the batting crown come September….
Pete,
Your post summed up Cano perectly – the good and the bad.
While I will always believe that Cano’s utter lack of plate discipline will hold him back from being an elite player, he’s worthy of going to the All-Star game this year.
He’s the most vexing of players. When he is on a hot streak, there is no more torrid hitter.
When he goes cold, there is no more of an automatic out.
If he could walk 70 to 80 times a year, he could be the best second baseman not named Chase Utley.
Patrick, Kemp has cut down on his strikeouts considerably this year, or at least has tried to. His power is a bonus considering all else he brings to the table out in CF. The Dodgers having (eventually) Manny, Kemp and Ethier left to right is quite the outfield.
“For a defensive measuring system to not pick that up makes me unwilling to believe in such a system.”
I hear you. UZR is on the whole is valuable and provides important insight.
But there really are player’s whose game it just doesn’t assess well.
Tex is at the forefront of that. I don’t know why but if you look at the UZR stats for Tex throughout his career they aren’t that good.
And UZR is supposed to account for range. How many 1b have more range than Tex? Pujols perhaps? Youkilis is not a better defensive player than Tex.
Same thing goes for Cano. He’s been phenomenal defensively this season and UZR has him rated below average. No way. Ian Kinsler is suddenly a better 2b than Cano?
Cano has tremendous range. And he has such a great arm that he’s able to convert balls up the middle into outs that other second baseman just couldn’t.
One thing I’ve wondered is whether the way the zones are set up Cano and Tex are sort of taking chances away from each other. For example, if Tex fields a ball in what is ordinarily the 2b zone then I believe Cano gets dinged for that. Just a guess.
That all said, fielding stats are very sensitive to sample size. That’s probably driving the underlying stats for Cano and Tex this year. They really aren’t all that great to look at in June.
I fully expect when the Fielding Bible stats to come out at the end of the year for Tex and Cano to be way at the top.
Cano may be in the “hunt” for the batting title, but he and every other hitter will finish far behind the hitting machine known as Joe Mauer.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....t-ima.html
Jonathan Sanchez’s stock has completely dropped, pounce Cashman pounce !
<<< Wanted Kemp for Cano. Then sign Hudson.
That would have been monstrous. Cano is fine now, but that would have been monstrous.
Cano made a throw last night going to his right that sort of defied physics.
I used to play a lot of middle infield and always took pride in my ability to throw off balance. It’s a nuance of the game that I enjoy.
Cano made a rarely seen throw last night going to his right that sort of defied physics.
He snapped his arm across his body while falling to the right but never left his feet. Ball arrived at 1st with plenty of time and dead solid perfect to Tex’s happy spot.
Cano could have been a quarterback.
pffft
Kemp is hitting .315 with a .381 OBP and 8 homers. That’s nothing to sneeze at. At a PREMIUM position.
I think you have to go back to the days of Randolph and Chambliss to find a second and first base combo as good defensively as Yankees as Cano and Tex.
Donnie baseball didn’t really have anybody at second in Cano’s or Randolph’s class defensively. Pat Kelly came the closest and he wasn’t as good as Cano or Randolph.
Tino had nobody in either guys class.
That’s how long its been since the Yankees have been that solid defensively from both positions at the same time.
The scary part is, Cano is only 26 and Tex 29. Its going to be that way for a long time. Very exciting.
“Don’t cha know?”
I just bought the MLB iphone app and have been listening to a lot of Yankees games. I never realized how bad Sterling and Waldman are. I think there’s times where Suzyn is sleeping and Sterling’s HR calls are so lame.
I’m not sure which my favorite is but it’s either a Tex message from Teixeira or homer by Cano, dont cha know.
“Roger Clemens is in George’s box!”
Brandon,
Jonathan Sanchez isn’t that good of a pitcher. He’s had a 5+ plus ERA in the worst division in baseball for the past three years. His peripherals stink as well.
Stuff aside, his performance is just not there. What makes you think he would succeed in the toughest division in basball?
Brandon,
Why add an arm that can’t throw strikes? Don’t they have enough guys like that now?
I think its safe to say from what we have seen is its awfully tough to fix guys who lack command.
I’ll take Huston Street for my bullpen before I’d even think of touching Sanchez. Heck, I’d give Michael Dunn a shot before I would trade for Sanchez.
stuff
Great link from February 11, Brandon!
We need Sanchez badly…
Oh no it’s just if the price was right seeing if we fix him we add a weapon.
“Patrick, Kemp has cut down on his strikeouts considerably this year, or at least has tried to. ”
Maybe he’s tried but he’s failed. Last year he struck out 153 times in 155 games. So far this year he’s struck out 59 times in 64 games. I guess he’s reduced his K’s slightly but not much. He still K’s A LOT.
I’m not trying to take anything away from him, he’s still a great player
I also believe Tex’s arrival has made Robbie a better defensive player. Tex has so much range that Robbie can play closer to the middle of the infield and he’s saved a lot of hits by going to his right as well as he has this year.
Another benefit to having a guy who can play first as well defensively as Tex can.
CB, I didn’t see tour post on Matt Kemp….He was a diamond in the rough 2 years ago, and he’s still is a project but what an amazing talent….He’s taken off since Torre and his coaching staff arrived in Los Angeles…..He’s the real deal, and has the best arm in the game…..
Maybe Sanchez would work well with Cervelli?
Plenty of guys have stuff. Tim Redding has stuff. Kyle Farnsworth has stuff.
Oliver Perez too. You can’t throw it over the plate consistently, it doesn’t matter.
I have yet to see a “high tech” defensive stat that convinced me of anything. The input is subjective so how can anyone treat it as objective data. I just trust my eyes and experience. Tex and Cano are having superb years. Jeter remains a good, never great SS and Alex is obviously unsure of his physical abilities, thus some good plays and some balls he doesn’t even make a move on.
I was a Cano for Kemp advocate in the off-season and saw it as a good deal for both teams and still do. Many here acused those of us in favor of such a swap as “trying to get rid of Cano” when it was more a case of trying to fill an overwhelming organizational need for young OF talent.
Jose Veras has stuff. He just has no idea where its going. Like Sanchez in that regard
I’d rather have guys who throw strikes.
The minor leagues, and a lot of ML rosters, are filled with guys who have “stuff”. Mainly because if a scout signs a guy that throws 92-95 and he busts out, he doesn’t lose his job. Folks just say, “he has no command”.
Sign a guy with great command that throws 87-89, and he doesn’t work out, scouts get canned because the guy lacks “stuff”.
You end up spending all your coaching and development time on these guys and its too often a waste of time.
Oh Nick
Huston Street will be overpriced and he’s somewhat overrated. I don’t want the Yankees to trade for him, they will likely be ripped off.
“I think you have to go back to the days of Randolph and Chambliss to find a second and first base combo as good defensively as Yankees as Cano and Tex.”
Last year the yankees were one of the 2-3 worst defensive teams by every defensive measurement system.
This year they’ve come into the season very handicapped at 3b because Alex simply isn’t 100% and has very limited range (his defensive stats so far this year are ugly).
Despite that the yankees as a team are now at least average to slightly above average as a whole.
That’s a phenomenal difference from a year ago. To go from bottom 2 to middle of the pack is a huge upgrade.
At the forefront of that have been Tex and Cano. The right side of the diamond gets to everything.
And we have to give a ton of credit to Jeter. He’s been fine defensively this year and overall he’s clearly been the best two way SS in the AL and the second best SS in the game after Hanley (Tejada is an awful defensive SS though he’s having a huge year at the plate).
It’s clear now that Jeter’s terrible defense two years ago was highly influenced by his knee injury. His loss of power last year was due to probably breaking his hand after he got hit by Daniel Cabrera.
Swisher has been bad in RF and Damon mediocre.
It’s really 1b, 2b, SS and CF that are driving the improvements in the yankees overall team defense.
Oh, it’s only if the price was right.
We should get Lincecum and Cain too — if the price is right.
Sanchez is a LH Jose Veras. Off the charts talent with no command, no control and no reason to be trusted.
Also not sure that the Yankees are in a position to sign someone just so they can fix him. If you are the Yankees and unless you are Wang you dont try and fix people in New York ML level.
Patrick, didn’t realize the early numbers of Kemp’s K’s were so close to his totals from last year. I definitely read that his big focus coming in to this season was to limit them, so it’s surprising to see he hasn’t actually improved that much while still getting off to a good start at the plate. Would kill for the Yankees to develop that kind of outfielder: patience, speed, defense, the ability to hit for average and power. Jackson will never walk as much and probably not develop the amount of power that Kemp has, but he at least has a shot to come close (fingers crossed).
Everybody is still yammering about Cano’s “pathetic” 2008 season. From May 7th until the end of the year he hit over .300 with 12 homers and 63 RBI. given his normal Aprils, that puts him at nearly the same numbers as 2007. Let’s not forget his double play partner’s start in 2004 when he was hitting .171 on May 20th. Nobody whined about his “pathetic” season.
Cano was around .285 to .290 in April before last year. Also, don’t forget the August hand injury from 2 August until the start of September.
SJ when do you see Dunn hitting AAA ?
“Tex has so much range that Robbie can play closer to the middle of the infield and he’s saved a lot of hits by going to his right as well as he has this year.”
I’ve noticed this also. Cano really is position close to up the middle a lot this year.
UZR doesn’t adjust for player positioning. So if Tex is fielding some balls in the 2b zone because his range is allowing the yanks to position cano closer to the bag that will ding cano.
I believe David Pinto’s probabilistic model of range does not ding players if another player fields a ball in his zone so it would be interesting to see if there is a discrepancy for Cano and Tex between PMR and UZR (both use the same source of data but have different models).
Hanley Ramirez is not a good defensive SS at all. Many believe he’ll be in LF in a year or two.
Jimmy Rollins is having a terrible season (.221), but he’s still the best all around SS in my opinion.
I don’t see Street as overrated at all. Not a lot of 26-27 year old guys have put up his numbers in a closers role with bad teams.
He doesn’t walk guys, he attacks hitters, and would be a perfect setup guy to Mo.
Price? We’ll see what it is as you get closer to the trade deadline. Everybody has a “high price” in June. It always comes down as you get closer to the deadline.
“It’s really 1b, 2b, SS and CF that are driving the improvements in the yankees overall team defense.”
Say what you want about Swisher (and I think some very visible poor plays have made him seem to be worse defensively than he actually is), he’s a huge upgrade defensively over Abreu. That is driving the upgrade in the team defense much more than Jeter (09) over Jeter (08).
IMO, the difference between Giambi/Abreu and Teixeira/Swisher is the biggest defensive difference maker between Yanks 08 and Yanks 09.
isn’t Daniel Cabrera like that too? Throws really hard. Just couldn’t control where the ball was going at all. So many pitching coaches thought they could fix him
“I just bought the MLB iphone app and have been listening to a lot of Yankees games. I never realized how bad Sterling and Waldman are. I think there’s times where Suzyn is sleeping and Sterling’s HR calls are so lame. ”
It’s an awesome App. I was listening to the Nats broadcast last night. What a difference.
Not a lot of storytelling which I kind of like but the play by play was just outstanding.
I think the bell tolls for Sterling.
“< << Wanted Kemp for Cano. Then sign Hudson.
That would have been monstrous. Cano is fine now, but that would have been monstrous.
”
I was always on this bandwagon. Not as a knock on Cano, but rather because of Kemp’s tremendous upside. I’m sure the deal had no real legs, but we certainly debated it for most of 2008. BTW, Hudson has been great for LA too.
No Diet Coke the Nats will score off Wang tonight.
Brandon,
I don’t know if he will get called up to AAA this year. He could go from AA to the majors. AA is the better league (more real prospects in it) and his role (lefty specialist) doesn’t require AAA seasoning.
Its probably dependent on whether or not they get Marte back and/or get a guy at the deadline.
Absent either situation, if he continues to pitch well, its possible we see him in the Bronx sometime during the second half of the year.
There’s nothing more painful than listening to a really good radio broadcast and then switching over to that self promoting buffoon and Georgie Girl.
Cano was all world last night – really put the team on his back especially from a defensive standpoint.
I’m also not seeing where Kemp is having a better offensive year than Cano, unless you count a few points in average and 12 more steals as better. He’s still on pace for more than 160 strikeouts. Cano leads him in just about everything else.
“Say what you want about Swisher (and I think some very visible poor plays have made him seem to be worse defensively than he actually is), he’s a huge upgrade defensively over Abreu. ”
I think you’re on to something here. Abreu was awful in RF from what I saw. Didn’t get to a lot of balls in front of him, or down the line, and we all know about his wall-a-phobia.
Saying Jimmy Rollins gas been terrible is being kind. He looks done.
No shortstop with a .257 OBP can lay claim to being the best all-around shortstop. He’s beyond dreadful right now.
Some of us never forgot how good a player Cano can be, Peter.
Swisher’s arm is much worse than Abreu’s and, other than that nice catch Sunday to open the game, has made very few better than average fielding plays to counteract his gaffes.
Not an upgrade, let alone a huge one.
The bar is set pretty low if we are comparing Swisher defensively to Abreu. lol That’s not a big hurdle to overcome.
Nick is pretty brutal in RF. Has been all year. Abreu has a much better arm than Swisher. Both guys are adventures tracking flyballs.
I’m surprised Swisher is as bad defensively as he is given his reputation prior to coming to NY. Just goes to show you, until you see a guy play everyday, its tough to judge how good or bad he is.
so true pete. great post!
“But a low on-base percentage holds down his overall effectiveness. His greatest skill is the ability to put the bat on the ball. It’s also his greatest detriment.”
Well said, Pete. I particularly agree with the above-quoted statement. You wonder what Cano’s definition of “middle” is, too. Cano has so much potential and I hope he excels at his game in years to come. You can live with no patience at the plate if he continues to get hits and hits for a high average, like he did a few years ago. But he’s so streaky and impatient, when he’s slumping it doesn’t feel like he’s contributing at all, and he usually isn’t, not at the plate, that is. Hopefully, the highs and lows will even out, or at least the lows won’t be so bad.
Defensively? I don’t know anything about how to look at fielding stats, but as an observer he’s always looked so smooth out there.
For me, Cano is never in the shadows of anybody else, he’s an important part of this team and sort of a silent killer because he is perhaps overlooked. Sure, he might make an out on the the first pitch of an AB, but he also might, just as easily, place that well-pitched ball into an outfield gap. I watch and follow him and am more curious at his ABs than probably anybody else on the team. And part of the reason is just to see him swing the bat. He’s always had a sweet swing and makes hitting look effortless.
Middle, what middle is that????
If Street is as good as everyone seems to believe he is (and that’s not an attack on people who think he is that good), despite the rumors why would the Rockies trade him? They control him for another year, and if he is that good he is worth the $$ he is paid or more. The Rockies could probably wait until next year, see how competitive they are and trade him then if they need to and still get as much back as they would if they traded him today.
It was always my contention that the wall phobia was the exact reason why so many balls got in front of Bobby. he was so scared going b ack against the wall that he played too deeply and never could get in quick enough
“He was a diamond in the rough 2 years ago, and he’s still is a project but what an amazing talent….He’s taken off since Torre and his coaching staff arrived in Los Angeles…..He’s the real deal, and has the best arm in the game…..
Pat M,
You and I discussed Kemp quite a lot here last year. We both didn’t want to trade Cano but acknowledged Kemp was a very, very special talent.
He’s putting it together this year. You can feel it – he’s right on the cusp of exploding. It may be another year or even two – but what the heck – he’s only 24!
If it weren’t for the spectacular brilliance of Justin Upton pouring out onto the field this year Kemp would be one of the big breakout stories in the NL (and in the game as a whole – though Upton and Adam Jones are front and center there).
Power is the last thing that comes often and that’s going to be the case with Kemp. He’s doing fine in the HR department now – but he’s only going to get better.
It’s funny to think of how so many people in NY were dead certain that Joe Torre couldn’t manage or develop young players. The dodgers are filled with them (Logan White is terrific..). How has kemp done under Torre? Look at the season Broxton is having (scary).
Kemp and Upton – what a duo in that division. I gotta say the year Justin Upton is having is one of the most undertold stories in baseball this season.
By the end of the year Upton could be well on his way to being one of the top 10 players in the game. What a talent – at the plate and in the field.
Robbie Cano and Yogi Berra in the same sentence? Blasphemy!
Brandon ! “B/c the Yankees don’t believe in young and athletic in the OF”
June 17th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
SJ when do you see Dunn hitting AAA ?
————————————————————
Adam Dunn would never make it through waivers to be sent to AAA. Besides, Washington needs his power.
Cano was horrible last year and at times one of the worst hitters statistically at his position last year.
He also played bad defense last year unless we’re whiting out some of the plays and the effort given to them. That game they lost in Anaheim to name one.
He also was so bad effort wise he was benched last year. What other Yankee great can you name that required a benching by their manager to straighten them out?
The people, like myself, who wanted him traded wanted to trade him for young top talent. Not scrubs.
Matt Kemp is not a scrub and I think even CB might agree that subbing in Orlando Hudson and Kemp for Cano & Melky is a statistical advantage.
That said, Cano has played incredible defense this year.
He did not field his position this well last year. If he did, people would have let some of his hitting woes go.
As for hitting, he still doesn’t get on base enough and he apparently has issues when they put him in a higher pressure spot in the order, but all that said, he came out of the gate hitting this year and didn’t take the first 2 months of the season off as he prone to do.
I’ll live with the low on base if he hits and fields the way he currently is.
But to sit here and be arrogant and say the criticism last year wasn’t deserved is just stupid.
He had a bad year last year. He was benched by his manager. Those are facts.
SJ44-
Swisher is not nearly as poor defensively as Abreu, IMO. He gets to a lot of balls Abreu would not. Last night was an example. Abreu’s arm in no way compensates for the difference.
Swisher has made some very visible poor plays this year, which causes people to be overly pessimistic about him. But if you don’t think there’s a big difference between the two defensively, you aren’t paying attention.
SJ44,
That being said about Swisher, don’t you think the Yankees wouldn’t be as well positioned in the standings without Swisher’s bat?
He’s been one of the better hitters in the league and he leads the league in walks. I think he’s filled the gap left by Abreu offensively, by giving the team a much-needed patient hitter that will see a lot of pitches.
You take the strikeouts with the walks, much as you did with Abreu.
Wave,
That’s just it regarding Street. That 11 game win streak propelled them into the mix for the WC. If they linger there into the deadline, then my guess is they trade him next year.
“Adam Dunn would never make it through waivers to be sent to AAA. Besides, Washington needs his power.”
Abreu wasn’t very good but Girardi would at least leave him there to finish games. Swisher gets pulled for defense.
The Rockies want to clear payroll because they have money issue. That’s why Brad Hawpe is on the market and he may be their best player right now.
They also don’t want to go into arbitration with Street. That could be a hefty price tag if he puts up good numbers over the full year.
If they decide to go into full “sell” mode, Street will hit the market. If they decide they have a chance at the WC, they may hold onto both guys. Its a fluid situation right now.
I don’t think Street is available right now with the surge the Rockies have been enjoying.
Dunn has been coming on strong at Trenton. In his last five games he’s pitched 12 innings allowing one run and striking out 15. Like SJ wrote it may not be crucial that he gets Triple-A “seasoning”, but he may be close to getting a sniff. 11.7 K per nine innings is pretty darn good.
It’s crazy that Upton bounced back so quickly from hitting below .200 for a long stretch at the beginning of the year, to now looking like he’s reaching his potential and becoming a perennial All Star-caliber RF.
Wave,
He’s better than Abreu but, that’s not saying much.
He hasn’t played well in RF this year. Yes, he made a couple of good plays last night. He also misjudged a couple of routine flyballs that he eventually tracked. He also made some awful plays last week. That’s who he is….an up and down player.
Better than Abreu defensively? Absolutely. A good defensive RF? Not buying it, at least from what I’ve seen of him so far this year.
“becoming a perennial All Star-caliber RF.”
CF, get your info straighten. wait, which Upton you talking about?
Farnsworth injured his left, non-pitching hand when one of his pet American bulldogs bit him as he tried to break up a fight between the two canines. He suffered cuts to his index finger and the bites went deep enough to reach, but not cut, a tendon.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/bl.....mlb,170834
HAHAHAHA!
Cano can still be maddeningly willing to swing at the first pitch and get to 0-2 and then have to protect instead of being able to work the count. He can brain cramp in the field – last night’s relay to Jeter to start a double play in the 4th was weak and almost got Jetes hammered in addition to blowing the double play.
But, Robbie seems to be making progress on patience – at least a little earlier in the season – and defensively, he seems to have raised his game – thanks perhaps to Teix at 1st. He has All-World potential, but, to echo A-Rod’s illconsidered remarks about Jeter years ago, do opposing teams come into NY and say “Don’t let Cano beat you”? I’m not sure. On the other hand, does Cano have to be that guy on this team? No. But he could be. And that’s the thing about Robbie.
“Say what you want about Swisher (and I think some very visible poor plays have made him seem to be worse defensively than he actually is), he’s a huge upgrade defensively over Abreu. That is driving the upgrade in the team defense much more than Jeter (09) over Jeter (08).
IMO, the difference between Giambi/Abreu and Teixeira/Swisher is the biggest defensive difference maker between Yanks 08 and Yanks 09.”
True. Swisher is on pace to be well below average in RF defensively but will still be much better than Abreu 2008. Much better.
Swisher is still on pace to be around 7 runs worse than an average RF. That is not good. So I don’t know how much credit we can give him for not being Abreu. That’s more credit to the team for not pursuing Abreu and not offerring him arb.
It’s ironic because many of the sabermetric arguments that said it was “stupid” to have Nady play over Swisher centered their argument on projections of Swisher’s defense. Maybe he’ll turn it around – it’s a small sample so far.
But Swisher being better than Abreu has definitely been a large improvement the same exact thing would have happened (and perhaps more ) if Nady was playing RF (or nearly anyone given how bad Abreu was).
And as big a factor in the improved defense as getting rid of Abrue and Giambi has been Cano’s return to form defensively. He was awful with the glove the second half of last year.
The Royals catch a break with Farnsworth being out.
My biggest complaint about Cano isn’t that he doesn’t walk (although that’s a complaint) it’s that he doesn’t make the pitcher work. He had a great game last night and in his first three at bats the pitcher threw three pitches. That is a significant limit on how much he can help the team. If he doesn’t get a hit in his first three at bats that can be an extra inning that the starter throws instead of a weaker 6th or 7th inning guy.
What separates Yogi (beyond the HOF, 3 mvp’s and his ten rings) was how rare it was for him to strike out, the year before his first MVP, which pete referred to (his lowest walk total in a season that he played 140 games or more) he struck out just 12 times in 656 at bats, 12 times!
“Better than Abreu defensively? Absolutely. A good defensive RF? Not buying it, at least from what I’ve seen of him so far this year.”
I’m not claiming “good”. I do think he’s close to average. I think he’s being overly penalized for two or three bad throws and a mystifying failure to catch one ball the other night.
I think he does look awkward, but I think Swisher has a lot more range than Abreu had. Not just going to the wall, but laterally and coming in on the ball, too. You can really see it when you are at the games.
But don’t overinterpret my claims for Swisher. He’s no ball hawk, just significantly better defensively than the 2008 version of Abreu.
I don’t agree that Swisher is “much” better defensively than Abreu. He’s much better coming in on balls, but he doesn’t track them all that well. If Abreu was a “4″ then maybe Swisher is a “6″, but Abreu is a much better thrower which minimizes the gap even more.
They are comparable offensive players in that they walk a lot. Abreu will hit for a higher average, Swisher will hit more HR…. especially in Launchee Stadium.
It’s pretty much a wash except for a little more flexibility and the fact Swisher is much younger.
“Matt Kemp is not a scrub and I think even CB might agree that subbing in Orlando Hudson and Kemp for Cano & Melky is a statistical advantage.”
Kemp and Hudson are considerably more valuable than Cano and Melky, primarily because Kemp is so much better than Melky.
That said I don’t think it’s a good comparison because there was absolutely no way on earth the dodgers were ever going to trade kemp – never mind for cano. That was just a pipe dream of some yankee fans. Never going to happen. Not a chance.
Dunn has been coming on strong at Trenton. In his last five games he’s pitched 12 innings allowing one run and striking out 15. Like SJ wrote it may not be crucial that he gets Triple-A “seasoning”, but he may be close to getting a sniff. 11.7 K per nine innings is pretty darn good.
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Dunn has been golden all season.
He had a ridiculous April and had a hiccup in May mainly due to weather and not pitching consistently, causing people who have seldom or never actually seen him to declare that he has trouble throwing strikes.
I have seen this kid often – he never has much trouble throwing strikes, I can tell you.
The Yankees have said from the get-go that Dunn was going to move fast, so he’s nobody’s well-kept secret.
With 3 plus pitches – fb/slider/change, ability to throw strikes and throw inside, and able to crank it up to 97 when he feels like it, it’s no wonder.
The guy is also very in touch w/his own body/mechanics and makes adjustments on his own.
His one obstacle is Marte – whom he’s better than right now.
I know the Yanks bullpen has at times sucked this year, but I think they have pieces in the organization to make it a decent one without giving up prospects for Street. Mo, Bruney, Aceves, Robertson have been good. I think Melancon could contribute this year at some point and perhaps the same is true with Dunn.
Swisher’s made some ugly plays out there, but I think he is more aggressive than Abreu playing right field. Abreu could afford to field balls on a hop, I guess, because of his arm. I don’t think Abreu tries to dive into the stands to make a catch (though I didn’t think that particular play was a good attempt or even advisable or even had a chance of being made). So, I don’t know. Swisher is an enigma, for sure, out there.
I thought I’d miss Abreu, but I find I don’t. I never thought I’d miss Giambi – and I was right (though I got used to him, I never thought they should have gotten him in the first place). Getting Teixeira was like getting a long-awaited, long-yearned for gift. And I frankly can’t imagine where the Yankees would be today if Swisher was playing 1B, God love him.
CB-
I’d still play Swisher over Nady. Swisher’s bat overcomes any marginal difference between Swisher’s and Nady’s defense (and I think Swisher’s underlying defensive ability is not as bad as his current defensive stats show).
“It’s pretty much a wash except for a little more flexibility and the fact Swisher is much younger.”
Swisher is a below average defensive RF and he is still much, much better than Abreu. Much better.
The offense you can say is really close to a wash this year. But Swisher is better defensively.
And at the same time Nady would have been much better than Abreu.
What you have to hope for with Swisher is that his nose dive in May was due to being hit in the elbow. If that was the case and he’s over that then he looks poised to have a very good offensive year.
On a different note, does anyone think the subtraction of Abreu has something to do with the reemergence of Cano and Melky? The three of them seemed very close and Abreu is not well known for his strong work ethic. Is it possible that the two were misguidedly modeling their work habits after his and stunting their development in the process?
I have no problem with Cano not making the pitcher work every time up. I do have a problem if he swings at a bad ball early, or takes a bad swing on the first pitch, as I do with any player. If you are going to swing 1st pitch, or 2-0, 3-1, it has to be at your pitch, not the pitcher’s pitch.
Swisher works every count, but he isn’t half the hitter Robi is. I felt Giambi spent some of his time in NY preferring to walk or work the count to actually hitting. After all, you are up there to hit, you take the walk if the pitcher doesn’t give you something to hit well.
“I’d still play Swisher over Nady. Swisher’s bat overcomes any marginal difference between Swisher’s and Nady’s defense (and I think Swisher’s underlying defensive ability is not as bad as his current defensive stats show)”
That’s reasonable. I think it really depends on what the cause of Swisher’s May plummet was. Is he just inherently very streaky at this point in his career (see last year) or was that a temporary thing (e.g. his elbow)?
I don’t know the answer to that question yet.
Similarly I don’t know if his current defensive performance reflects his true skill – he might just be getting used to playing RF again.
But sure if he’s going to continue to put up a .900 OPS with a .390 wOBA for the whole season then he’s a huge plus over both Nady and Abreu at the plate.
Doreen,
I agree with you 100% re: Abreu, Giambi, and Teix.
“What you have to hope for with Swisher is that his nose dive in May was due to being hit in the elbow. If that was the case and he’s over that then he looks poised to have a very good offensive year.”
Even with the horrible May, Nick is 17th in the AL in OPS, 17th in OBP and 22nd in SLG. How good were you expecting him to be?
“My biggest complaint about Cano isn’t that he doesn’t walk (although that’s a complaint) it’s that he doesn’t make the pitcher work.”
I totally agree. He might go 4-4 but see only 6 pitches the entire game. That’s good, but if he’s 0-4 on 6 pitches then it’s infuriating. If a hitter can see 15-20 pitches a game, you are contributing even if you go 0-4.
When Cano is not getting hits and not being patient, he’s the easiest out for a pitcher.
Maybe Wang pitches better now that hes a daddy?
The Ghost -
I don’t know about that. Cano and Melky did work out with ARod, who has a great work ethic, though I don’t know if that tailed off last season. I know I witnessed the three of them doing a workout before Friday night’s game, so it would seem they’re getting back to business if they did tail off last year.
As for hitting, he still doesn’t get on base enough and he apparently has issues when they put him in a higher pressure spot in the order, but all that said, he came out of the gate hitting this year and didn’t take the first 2 months of the season off as he prone to do.
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In his 5 years in the majors, he’s had 4 Aprils, since he wasn’t promoted until May of 2005. His Aprils are .316, .270, .151, and .366. His Mays are .253, .275, .260, .295, and .272.
Which years has he taken the first two months off? He’s had one bad month out of those 10 months.
Nobody said a thing about him screwing up late last summer. He did, but, like a lot of players have before him, he has a tendency to take his at bats into the field and his fielding into the at bats. Look at his fielding career. His errors come in bunches. Last year, 7 of those errors came in an 8 game span (3 in one game)and then went almost 40 games without an error.
He’s never going to be Ted Williams patient at the plate, but, he’s not likely to strike out more than 70 times a year, either.
Swisher has made some boneheaded plays in RF but overall I think he can be an average to slightly above average OF. He plays with more energy in the field than Abreu or Nady (diving for balls, running his butt off, scaling the walls, etc).
It’s pretty frustrating to watch Abreu, Nady and even Damon to some extent jog after a fly ball and watch it drop 5 feet in front of them. You’ll never see that from Swisher.
“Even with the horrible May, Nick is 17th in the AL in OPS, 17th in OBP and 22nd in SLG. How good were you expecting him to be?”
Sure – at this point in time. If we’d done the same exercise 2-3 weeks ago his numbers wouldn’t have looked nearly as good.
What will his numbers look like a month from now?
I personally don’t know and feel that it’s hard to be confident in predicting future performance for a player who was so bad last year and has been so streaky this year.
His aggregate stats at this point in the season are misleading, IMO, because he’s been so wildly streaky. Moving forward I ‘m not certain what his level of performance will be.
Patrick
June 17th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Yeah honestly I’m starting to doubt UZR. It’s a good tool but it’s not the ultimate fielding stat. How is Gardner’s UZR so high? He doesn’t seem to cover much ground. Jeter’s looks abnormally high, Cano’s is too low, Tex is too low. As you said, Cano and Tex have been awesome defensively but their UZR doesn’t reflect that.
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Gardner has a lot of range with his speed he covers a lot of ground. Jeter been playing very good defense this year, he seems to be postioning himself very well this year. Ryan Church hit a ball up the middle and Jeter was standing there it was perfect postioning.
“I do have a problem if he swings at a bad ball early, or takes a bad swing on the first pitch, as I do with any player. If you are going to swing 1st pitch, or 2-0, 3-1, it has to be at your pitch, not the pitcher’s pitch.”
On Friday, I cursed Cano for fouling off ball-four in his first AB. The next pitch he hit into the seats for a homer. You never know…
Correction: Which years has he taken the first two months off? He’s had one bad month out of those ***9 months***
Maybe Sanchez would work well with Cervelli?
================================
With eyes like Cervelli, how could you not throw strikes? It’s like a tractor beam.
http://janeheller.mlblogs.com/cervelli.mask.jpg
The difference between Swish and Abreu is that Swish will leave his feet and he’ll make more catches that Bobby would let drop. He also makes some plays close to the wall that Bobby would back off on.
But Swish has made some gaffes that a good fielder just doesn’t make. There are several exapmles but the play in Fenway last week is a glaring example. A giveaway run in a 1-run game.
A Yogi/Robbie comp., IMO, is not apt. Berra averaged 54 walks per 162 games, Cano’s never walked more than 39 in a given season. Berra also rarely struck out, 32 per 162 games. Even with Cano’s penchant for not striking out, Cano still averages 40 more whiffs per 162 than Yogi.
Is Texiera has the possibility to be the Yankees best free agent signing since Jimmy Key.
“It’s pretty frustrating to watch Abreu, Nady and even Damon to some extent jog after a fly ball and watch it drop 5 feet in front of them. You’ll never see that from Swisher.”
No, he’s running full speed as the ball goes bounding past him!
I also loved how he hustled right into those boneheaded double plays last week.
CB-
Sure. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Swisher’s final offensive numbers are worse than where they stand now.
I thought he was a good acquisition, and I was (and am) in the camp that thinks he should start in RF over Nady, but I wasn’t expecting him to be anywhere near as good as he as been offensively (overall). He has room to be worse and still be very productive.
one day I’m going to spell Teixiera’s name correctly. What nationality is that anyway?
“Gardner has a lot of range with his speed he covers a lot of ground.”
Gardner has a lot of speed but he doesn’t cover much ground. His range is pretty weak
“No, he’s running full speed as the ball goes bounding past him!
I also loved how he hustled right into those boneheaded double plays last week.”
You’d never see Abreu touch a wall and you’d never see him make that diving catch from last week.
“Is Texiera has the possibility to be the Yankees best free agent signing since Jimmy Key.”
Mike Mussina might beg to differ.
“He has room to be worse and still be very productive.”
Very true. I wasn’t expecting him to be as good as his aggregate stats are now.
Hopefully it was his elbow and he’s able to put up an .850 OPS season in RF.
Saying Swisher isn’t half the hitter Cano is, at best a little stong, and at worst – just wrong.
Despite the gap in their batting averages – .309 for Cano to .244 for Swisher – Swisher hasn an .OPS of .902 vs. .843 for Cano.
And .OPS is a much better measure of offensive performance.
Cano is more valuable to the team than Swisher, because Cano hits well and plays stellar defense at a more valubale position.
portugeuse
Ghost: I’d say the Mike Mussina signing was the best of recent memory, Damon’s up there as well as he’s been pretty productive for the majority of his deal.
“Saying Swisher isn’t half the hitter Cano is, at best a little stong, and at worst – just wrong.”
This might be semantics but if you look at hitting as a skill than yes cano is a much better hitter than Swisher.
He isn’t a much better offensive player however. He’s a better offensive player but not as much as the difference in their respective hitting ability suggests due to the divergence in their ability to draw walks/ not make outs.
I do think those issues are different – how good of a hitter one is vs. how good of an offensive player one is.
Doreen, I do remember hearing that they worked out with Arod, maybe last year they split time between both hopefully it’s having a positive affect. It’s interesting to me how much Cano seems to be affected by external stimuli. A lot of reporters blamed not having Bowa around for his decline last year, I’m curious, I remember reading something about Girardi making sure to stay on Cano’s case this year via fielding. Has he been doing that or is it someone else because his fielding this year has been noticeably better.
One thing is certain, when Cano is hitting – and he’s a streaky hitter – the Yankees are almost impossible to beat.
Mark Teixeira might not be the best free agent signing for the yankees this year.
I love Tex. How could you not.
But let’s see how CC finishes the season now that he’s over his early season slow start.
5-1 with a 2.92 ERA over the past 8 starts while throwing 62 innings over those 8 innings is pretty good.
Matt,
Agreed on the Damon acquisition. It was definitely strong – would’ve been better if he could play CF though.
Texeria is the best signing since Reggie Jackson, slightly ahead of Dave Winfield…..Then again he’s only been playing in NY for 2 1/2 months…..I still say he has 2 MVP’s in store for him as a Yankee, and will be a 500 hr switch hitting HOF when it’s all said and done….
Cano has the same idea of a strike zone as Roberto Clemente. “If it isn’t thrown over the backstop, I can hit it.” Clemente and Cano are quite similar in their approach to hitting. The only difference in them is Clemente’s speed. as a matter of fact, Cano’s career start is better than Clemente’s. It’s up to him to improve it even more. Clemente didn’t become Clemente until 1960. Until that time, he only had 1 .300 season and no double figure homers. Oh, yeah. He had 621 walks in 18 years.
To me, the most crucial aspect of Cano’s game that needs to be improved now is his hittng with runners on base. He is hitting well above .300 with bases empty. But I believe his RISP is below .250. He is hitting fifth now, which is the second or third most important rbi position in the lineup. He needs to hit with runners on, protect Arod and get those rbi’s. If he can drive in 100+ runs, I do not care how much he walks or makes the pitcher work.
Gardner has a lot of range with his speed he covers a lot of ground. Jeter been playing very good defense this year, he seems to be postioning himself very well this year. Ryan Church hit a ball up the middle and Jeter was standing there it was perfect postioning.
=====================================
Gardner’s speed has not been able to out-run his poor reads often enough. He has a serious learning curve to undergo before anyone is going to declare him a plus CF. His great range serves him horizontally, but he has gotten some awful reads on balls hit behind him.
Outfield defense is more than speed.
I’d rather have a guy with instincts and that all-important first burst than the guy with blazing speed who gives away time and space trying to figure out where the ball is going.
About Mussina – he was a very productive pitcher for the Yankees but he didn’t transform the franchise the way Jimmy Key did. The jury is still out on Teixiera on whether he’ll be a very productive player like Moose or a “straw that stirs the drink” type of player. The most encouraging thing about Tex to me so far is his leadership – I really did not expect it and it’s a pleasant surprise after so many big free agents have come here and crumbled under the pressure or Jeter’s immense shadow.
The Rockies want to clear payroll because they have money issue. That’s why Brad Hawpe is on the market and he may be their best player right now.
They also don’t want to go into arbitration with Street. That could be a hefty price tag if he puts up good numbers over the full year.
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The Yankees should offer Chin Ming Wang, Austin Jackson, Mark Melancon and a lesser prospect for Huston Street and Brad Hawpe. They can even offer to pre pay all of Wang’s salary for the remainder of this year.
If the Rockies manage to straighten out Wang they will definately get the better end of the deal. If not, they can trade him and someone else may want to try to straighten him out.
Best Yankee free agent signing….Dave Winfield. easily.
“If he can drive in 100+ runs, I do not care how much he walks or makes the pitcher work.”
He is on pace to both score and drive in over 100 runs. (Cano)
David Cone was acquired via trade, not free agency. So my question is, have the Yankees traded for anyone better since getting David Cone?
Billy Martin had some Portuguese in him as well.
White dudes with Hispanic heritage. Always makes me chuckle.
I always laughed at Bernie and Tino.
A black hispanic with a gringo name and a seemingly gringo with a hispanic name.
I’m pretty sure Tino was of Cuban ancestry. His family made cigars.
CB -
How nice is it that two of the 3 FA signings are showing such positive signs? The third, well, jury will remain out on that one for a bit more, I guess.
Ghost -
I watched Kim Jones “Innerview” with Cano earlier this season. I think (no – it was clear) he was seriously embarrassed by what happened to him last season (the benching and the whispers that he was a lazy player). He said he had a long talk with his dad about it, as well. So, good for him, that this year’s going better all around, so far.
GB,
I realize that Cano had some months where he hit .260-.270 in the early parts of the season but with his inability to walk, hitting to an average like that was not enough to make much of an offensive impact.
Especially when everyone in the world knew the guy was capable of hitting 60 points higher than that.
Hitting .270 with a sub .300 OBP isn’t exactly great. Is it?
In Torre’s last season, 2 years ago, there was plenty of scuttlebutt by Torre, Bowa, Mattingly and the press about how the team collectively wasn’t hitting in the first 2 months. How they were a 2nd half team, which they were. Cano was part of that problem. So was Abreu, Giambi, etc.
For Cano to contribute offensively he has to hit above .300 with the low OBP and have a high avg w/RISP.
Right now he is doing the job with the bat and in the field so I have nothing to complain about.
Even when he was slumping recently the only thing I wanted changed was his place in the order since I feel the guy seems to hit better from 6 down in the lineup. I’d rather put him in the spot where he’s going to rake.
His being able to go out and have a 4 for 4 night last night put a lid on a lot of the people ready to crush him for his mini-slump.
To me, the parts of his game that need work outside of walking more, is hitting w/RISP and hitting effectively higher in the lineup.
I see the potential for him to hit 30HR’s and hit .300 (something that will be rare as the years go on) and the Yankees at some point are going to need him to take his ability up to the 2,3,4,5 hole and be able to consistently produce there.
bodhisattva – OPPC member – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
June 17th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Gardner has a lot of range with his speed he covers a lot of ground. Jeter been playing very good defense this year, he seems to be postioning himself very well this year. Ryan Church hit a ball up the middle and Jeter was standing there it was perfect postioning.
=================================
Gardner’s speed has not been able to out-run his poor reads often enough. He has a serious learning curve to undergo before anyone is going to declare him a plus CF. His great range serves him horizontally, but he has gotten some awful reads on balls hit behind him.
Outfield defense is more than speed.
I’d rather have a guy with instincts and that all-important first burst than the guy with blazing speed who gives away time and space trying to figure out where the ball is going.
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He also made some difficult catches look a lot easier. Gardner misplayed a couple of balls but overall he has played a good centerfield.
Cano is an elite talent – great hands for hitting and fielding, and the most talented hitter the Yanks have produced since Mattingly.
GB7 -
I didn’t realize the huge impact Winfield had out-of-the box until I watched his Yankeeography recently. I was a more casual fan back then, and of course, the tabloid-esque nature of his relationship with George garnered most of my attention. (Also was more of a Mets fan back then). I always knew he was a great player, just never realized how much.
GB, I would agree with you, it’s just that in Reggie’s tenure the Yanks played in 3 WS, winning 2…Then of course there’s the 1977 Game 6…..Legendary 5 years…Winfield was the more complete ballplayer, and the teams in the 80′s were outstanding but with no wild card, they just never had the pitching…They traded away a wealth of young pitchers…I still cannot understand or accept the loss to KC in 1980….They had the best team in baseball that season, cost Howser ( unfairly ) his job…
except Donnie knew how to work a pitcher and bait them.
Don LaGreca clearly has an unhealthy man crush on David Wright…
“About Mussina – he was a very productive pitcher for the Yankees but he didn’t transform the franchise the way Jimmy Key did. ”
Jimmy Key was a terrific and important signing but he hardly transformed the franchise.
That’s just mixing up an association for a cause.
The development of Jeter, Bernie, and Mo are what transformed the franchise at that time along with the development of Andy and Posada.
Key was an important part early but he was far from transformative. He had 2 good seasons for the team and that was it. In neither of those seasons did they make the playoffs.
By the time the team turned into a good one Key was largely done.
Cone and O’Neil were also much more tranformative.
Cano has been like the little girl in the nursery rhyme (or Alice in Wonderland? I don’t know, I remember it from somewhere)- “when he is good he is very, very good, and when he is bad is is horrid”.
He’s been the very, very good version this year so far, but I am afraid he still has the horrid lurking in him somewhere.
Nick in SF
June 17th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
David Cone was acquired via trade, not free agency. So my question is, have the Yankees traded for anyone better since getting David Cone?
****
Alex Rodriguez was obtained via trade when Boone broke his knee. You could spend days debating the effect of A-Rod on Yankee history, but you cannot deny his impact is massive
David Cone was acquired via trade, not free agency. So my question is, have the Yankees traded for anyone better since getting David Cone?
Clemens? Although his performance was enhanced.
Maybe decades from now kids will ask about old players being on drugs or not as casually as we ask if somebody was a lefty or righty.
He also made some difficult catches look a lot easier. Gardner misplayed a couple of balls but overall he has played a good centerfield.
===============
It’s interesting, but I have seen the opposite: I see a guy looking over the wrong shoulder and uncomfortably twisting his way to balls that a smooth, swift outfielder just glides to and gloves.
He has improved of late – playing less shallow – but I don’t see a plus CF; I see a guy with speed who has repeated trouble making a line to balls hit over his head.
It’s a useless discussion, however, because at the end of the day, you can’t explain or measure what can’t be seen for oneself when it comes to “getting a jump.”
It’s always been my belief that the death of Thurman Munson cost the team at least one title, probably more.
Still waiting: have the Yankees gotten a better player than David Cone via trade since they got him?
“The Yankees should offer Chin Ming Wang, Austin Jackson, Mark Melancon and a lesser prospect for Huston Street and Brad Hawpe. They can even offer to pre pay all of Wang’s salary for the remainder of this year.
If the Rockies manage to straighten out Wang they will definately get the better end of the deal. If not, they can trade him and someone else may want to try to straighten him out.”
no thanks
O’Neill for Roberto Kelly was one of the great Yankee trades. A lot of trades have gone wrong, but that one sure worked out.
“So my question is, have the Yankees traded for anyone better since getting David Cone?”
Clemens.
Dare I say it – ARod.
Though if you want to consider letting Tom Gordon sign with the phillies and the yanks using the picks to draft Joba and Ian Kennedy a “trade” that one looks pretty good also.
Comparing A-Rod and David Cone is like apples and oranges and gives me a headache. But A-Rod was just as much of an important trade. I stand by that answer Mr. Nick in SF
“Maybe Wang pitches better now that hes a daddy?”
Maybe Wang pitches better because he will be facing a pathetic Double-A team tonight.
Heh, I forgot about Arod.
Clemens, interesting, but I will say that Cone impacted the team’s success at the time more than Clemens did. Clemens had a much better career overall, yes, but I think Cone was more important to the team at the time of the trade and in the next few years.
Don Lagreca just said he would trade David Wright for Alex Rodriguez. (Hes a Mets fan)
Doreen
June 17th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
GB7 –
I didn’t realize the huge impact Winfield had out-of-the box until I watched his Yankeeography recently. I was a more casual fan back then, and of course, the tabloid-esque nature of his relationship with George garnered most of my attention. (Also was more of a Mets fan back then). I always knew he was a great player, just never realized how much.
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The problem with George Steinbrenner was that he took things to personally. If the player wasn’t hitting or pitching well, he felt they were doing it to get back at him. He tried running the Yankees like he did when he was an assistant football coach. He also didn’t have a clue about baseball. He was the New York version of Ted Turner.
Murcer used to talk about the first spring training with George. He had a pad and pen and he was taking notes. al Rosen asked him what he was writing. “I’m taking down numbers of those that need haircuts.” Not names…numbers. He didn’t know any players names. He yelled to Murcer (the biggest star on his team), “Hey, Number 1. Get your haircut by the time you come back, tomorrow.” Winfield insulted him by hitting .022 in the ’81 WS.
“So my question is, have the Yankees traded for anyone better since getting David Cone?”
Alex and Clemens. I’d also throw Tino and Nelson in there too.
I know Cano is never going to draw 100 walks in a season. But if his average is .309, his OBP should be like at least .359 or .360. I realize he is a free swinger, and if he gets a pitch down the middle first pitch, he should swing. But he still needs to be a little more patient. His walks still need to go up a little. I promise that if he walked a little more, his power numbers would that much more impressive.
My memory may be bad, but they gave up Soriano for A-Rod right? I can’t believe I am saying this, but I would make that trade again.
I just would not resign him when he opts out in 2007. Thanks Hankenstein
Cano the most talented hitter since Mattingly? Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.
Here are two words – Bernie Williams. Here are two more – Derek Jeter.
Oh, and two more- Jorge Posada.
I understand you’re using “talented” as a measure, but Jeter, Williams and Posada are markedly better hitters than Cano. That’s not up for debate.
Each has shown more power and a better ability to get on base than Cano.
Look Cano is having a very good year, and yes, he is talented. But let’s not overdo it.
“Maybe Wang pitches better because he will be facing a pathetic Double-A team tonight.”
What team would that be?
The nationals have the 5th best team OPS in the NL. They have a decent offensive club.
They have historically bad pitching.
But this is in no way a cake walk for Wang
Cano will never reach that projected ceiling until and unless he learns better plate discipline.
Sorry, Erica, I posted the ‘still waiting’ before I saw your reply. The Arod answer will most likely turn out to be correct *hopefully* after he has won multiple titles with the Yankees.
Right now, it’s kind of feels like saying that Winfield was a better free agent signing than Reggie — that may be the case, but Reggie won the titles and Winfield didn’t.
But yes, Arod is it.
Clemens, I don’t think so.
bodhisattva – OPPC member – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
June 17th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
He also made some difficult catches look a lot easier. Gardner misplayed a couple of balls but overall he has played a good centerfield.
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It’s interesting, but I have seen the opposite: I see a guy looking over the wrong shoulder and uncomfortably twisting his way to balls that a smooth, swift outfielder just glides to and gloves.
He has improved of late – playing less shallow – but I don’t see a plus CF; I see a guy with speed who has repeated trouble making a line to balls hit over his head.
It’s a useless discussion, however, because at the end of the day, you can’t explain or measure what can’t be seen for oneself when it comes to “getting a jump.”
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I agree that he isn’t smooth and does not glide like a great outfielder does. But for the most part he will outrun any of his bad reads and make the catch. I’m not saying he’s a great gold glove outfielder he is not. But I think he’s been doing a good job playing center and will catch mostly everything.
why are people making such a big deal its the nationals for goodness sake. Ill get more excited if he did this against the red sox.
I worry a little bit about ARod. He’s had 35 games now.
Thats okay Nick. Unfortunately, the Yankees won most of those titles while I was away in Albany at school. I still have never been to a ticker tape parade. But every year I save a vacation day for that glorious day.
Hopefully A-Rod can help us win some titles
CB I think you have misunderstood my meaning of “transform”. Jimmy Key, by all accounts, was a leader on that Yankees team that instilled the young players with the belief that they could be champions. It’s just not enough for a player to come in and do an above average job – great players bring with them and indomitable will to win that infects the rest of the team. That’s part of the reason I feel more comfortable buying and trading for players with rings on their fingers because you can be sure they don’t carry around that “maybe I’m snakebit” mental baggage from never getting to the top of the mountain.
“My memory may be bad, but they gave up Soriano for A-Rod right? I can’t believe I am saying this, but I would make that trade again.”
That trade was a steal. Soriano has proven to be a limited player, has moved off 2nd and is now vastly overpaid.
They were going to have to trade Soriano because signing him long term for 100M+ was crazy.
Getting Alex back for a guy you would have to move was a big win.
Erica, I’m sorry you had to spend all that time in Albany, but at least you were close to Lake George!
Whats up with Francesa he keeps saying Girardi and Posada hate each other. Is this true? Everytime I see Posada when he has a day off he is standing next to Girardi talking to him.
Pat M.
June 17th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
GB, I would agree with you, it’s just that in Reggie’s tenure the Yanks played in 3 WS, winning 2…Then of course there’s the 1977 Game 6…..Legendary 5 years…Winfield was the more complete ballplayer, and the teams in the 80’s were outstanding but with no wild card, they just never had the pitching…They traded away a wealth of young pitchers…I still cannot understand or accept the loss to KC in 1980….They had the best team in baseball that season, cost Howser ( unfairly ) his job…
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Winfield was on some decent teams and some bad teams and like Rodriguez has been, unfairly blamed because the Yanks blew a 2-0 series lead in ’81 and Winfield didn’t hit. He walso wasn’t striking out. He was hitting riockets to everyone (or, everyones gloves). Two things….nobody was hitting in that series and and George Frazier was 0-3 with an ERA of 18.
Nick in SF….Munson’s death still saddens me to this day…..
Richie
June 17th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Cano will never reach that projected ceiling until and unless he learns better plate discipline.
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Roberto Clemente sends a heavenly “HI!!”.
Munson’s death definitely cost the Yankees the ’79 title and 80 and 81 in my opinion.
Oh snap, a caller is taking shots at McLouth and Fatcessa doesn’t know about the MLB Clutch Player Of The Month award
It’s true Melky AVG wise is better than Minny Oneill
Bronx Jeers
June 17th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
I worry a little bit about ARod. He’s had 35 games now.
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He’s still a little better than Teixeira’s first 35 games.
I reiterate my opinion that I would gladly trade for A-Rod again. The resigning after the opt-out.. whole other story.
Nick-
I actually LOVED Albany. I still miss the city a lot. I actually never went to Lake George. I drove through it a bunch of times on my way fake camping, but never stopped. I went to Saratoga a few times though.
I did not realize the Yankees drafted Hughes with the pick the Astros gave them for signing Pettitte.
“Jimmy Key, by all accounts, was a leader on that Yankees team that instilled the young players with the belief that they could be champions.”
Jimmy Key was outstanding in 1993 and 1994 and that was it.
The only young player he overlapped with then was Bernie. I don’t think Key had some large influence on a young CF and have never heard of them having a relationship of significance.
In 1995 Key was hurt and threw 30 innings. I have a feeling Cone had a much bigger impact on Rivera and Pettite their rookie years than Key. Jeter got a cup of coffee in 1995. Don’t think Key had any impact on him whatsoever.
Key was on the 1996 team but by then already in decline. He only threw 160 innings.
I don’t see how Key had any meaningful impact on any of the core players from that dynasty team. I don’t see how he would even have had the opportunity to do so given his injuries in 1995 and the time frame they came up in.
So I don’t see how Key was transformative by your own definition.
I think I remember seeing Winfield hit a home run so hard that it hit the 2nd deck facade in left while it was still in its ascent. Probably the most underrated Yankee in team history. Always played the game hard, always busted it down the line. If he had just one ring he’d be mentioned a lot more along with the Yankee greats but unfortunately if your an old Yankee and you don’t have a ring you are quickly forgotten – unless your name is Mattingly.
“I did not realize the Yankees drafted Hughes with the pick the Astros gave them for signing Pettitte.”
The yanks got Hughes for Pettite and Joba and Kennedy as picks for Tom Gordon.
Amazing how all of that worked out.
“Whats up with Francesa he keeps saying Girardi and Posada hate each other. Is this true?”
Francesa is known to have more insider information than some players and low-level employees on the Yankees and, unlike most sports talk radio hosts, he is fairly knowledgeable about a game he’s never played past his 13th birthday. So sadly, it’s probably true.
Cone > Key
There wasn’t one player who was transformative durring the Yankees run in the 90s. The organization went out and made smart free agent moves- Key, Boggs, Girardi; Good trades- O’Neil, Tino, Cone, Wetland; and, developed their own players-Bernie, Pettitte, Jeter, Mo, Posada.
Stultus Magnus
June 17th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Francesa is known to have more insider information than some players and low-level employees on the Yankees and, unlike most sports talk radio hosts, he is fairly knowledgeable about a game he’s never played past his 13th birthday. So sadly, it’s probably true.
***
Am I being gullible again or detecting sarcasm?
Erica,
It’s sarcasm but it’s ok to ask. I mean, it doesn’t make you gullible. People make comments akin to that frequently, so you never know.
The Ghost
June 17th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
I think I remember seeing Winfield hit a home run so hard that it hit the 2nd deck facade in left while it was still in its ascent. Probably the most underrated Yankee in team history. Always played the game hard, always busted it down the line. If he had just one ring he’d be mentioned a lot more along with the Yankee greats but unfortunately if your an old Yankee and you don’t have a ring you are quickly forgotten – unless your name is Mattingly.
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Winfield hit some of the most ungodly screaming liners, consistantly that I can ever remenber from a player. They just never got that high. He hit a couple in the upper left field deck and three that I remember into the right field upper deck. The one that I remember most was a high line drive that hit the ambulance parked behind the bullpen. That was before Juan Encanarcion of the Tigers did it.
That’s what people will love sabout Jesus Montero. Rocket line drives, high line drives and light tower rockets.
SUNY Albany Great Danes in the house…
Tom in N.J
June 17th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
There wasn’t one player who was transformative durring the Yankees run in the 90s. The organization went out and made smart free agent moves- Key, Boggs, Girardi; Good trades- O’Neil, Tino, Cone, Wetland; and, developed their own players-Bernie, Pettitte, Jeter, Mo, Posada.
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One player from that era/group who had as much to do with winning attitude and how to play hard, was a player that wasn’t even a full timer….Daryl Strawberry. Tim Raines had a huge affect on the players, too.
rconn23
June 17th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Cano the most talented hitter since Mattingly? Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.
Here are two words – Bernie Williams. Here are two more – Derek Jeter.
Oh, and two more- Jorge Posada.
I understand you’re using “talented” as a measure, but Jeter, Williams and Posada are markedly better hitters than Cano. That’s not up for debate.
Each has shown more power and a better ability to get on base than Cano.
Look Cano is having a very good year, and yes, he is talented. But let’s not overdo it.
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Robi has more pure hitting ability than either Jeter or Bernie, or Jorge.
I don’t think you can overdo it when it comes to his ability. He has slug yet he’s not a classic power guy, can get to anything yet isn’t a typical “contact” hitter – he pretty much defies type and perhaps that’s why his greatness is harder for people to read.
But he has in his bat what many very good players don’t – greatness.
CB I do remember the talk around the Yankees in ’96 was that Key was a big leader in the clubhouse. I could be wrong but that’s what I remember people saying. Anyway as far as him being done he did go 16-10 in ’97 for the Orioles and was probably one of the reasons the Yankees didn’t repeat that year (that and the choke artist Mariano Rivera
He was known as a big game pitcher before he came to the Yankees and proved it by closing out the Braves in Game 6 of the Series.