A closer look at Sabathia’s sore arm
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CC Sabathia had a sore arm on Sunday and left the game in the second inning. After investing $161 million in the big lefty, that was the last thing the Yankees wanted to see.
George King of the Post talked to Sabathia yesterday and asked him what he thought caused the pain. Was it throwing 253 innings in the 2008 regular season and making his last four starts on three days’ rest?
“No, that’s not it,” Sabathia said. “It could be the 120 pitches this year.”
Has CC been abused this season? Let’s check it out.
Sabathia has thrown 119+ pitches three times this season: April 16 (122), May 2 (119) and June 11 (123). In his 14 starts before the injury, he pitched into the eighth inning eight times.
When Sabathia was with the Indians and Brewers last season, he did not get to 119 pitches until June 5 and his first time over 120 was on July 2. He pitched into the eighth inning four times in his first 14 starts.
So Yankees manager Joe Girardi has pushed Sabathia more than he was last season, but not by an unreasonable amount. Throwing 122 pitches in mid April is eye-opening. But it’s hard to say that caused a sore arm two months later.
CC is also a 28-year-old man with a long-term contract. If he thinks he has had enough, he can voice that opinion and presumably the manager would listen to him.
But these situations bear watching. Clearly Girardi made an error by playing Alex Rodriguez every day, something that even he admitted. And now Sabathia is raising questions about his use.
Girardi knows if the Yankees fail to make the playoffs, he’s out of a job. At the age of 44, he would have already been fired twice. Finding a third chance would be difficult. Were I in his spot, I’d want CC Sabathia on the mound, too.
Now that the Yankees seem to have crafted a reasonably effective bullpen, perhaps Sabathia won’t have to get pushed quite so much.
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on Tuesday, June 23rd, 2009 at 1:17 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Hopefully CC can go to about 110 pitches a game on avg. and 120 when we need him to.
Guys who drive in runs are pros at it. Take Matsui, he’ll hit it to the right side when a man on third and less then two outs to drive the run in or at the very least drive one to the outfield. (At least in his hayday, he is a shell of himself now)
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Matsui will hit the ball to the right side in almost any at bat you watch because he is cooked
Yes jerkface now, but there was no denying his rbi awesomeness a few years ago.
Matsui isn’t cooked. People say that every time he slumps, and then he goes on a hot streak and people calm down.
I think this is Godzilla’s last year. But he could be a very useful player.
He is cooked because even when he was a streaky hitter last year and the seasons before he maintained a high average.
His average and OBP are depressingly low now and his hot streaks don’t last as long and aren’t as good.
Matsui is one of my favorite hitters of the past 6 years, and when he was ‘hot’ he’d hit a lot of line drive doubles and smash some HRs, but now he is just isn’t very good.
Age and injury have hit him like a ton of bricks.
I heard (forgot the source, twitter maybe?) that CC was unable to get treatment yesterday in Atlanta since the Braves had a game and the training room was off-limits. There isn’t any PT clinics in Atlanta? Are you kidding me?
Must be a slow day. Now they media’s reading into comments by Sabathia. “It could have been the 120 pitches this year.”, could also mean, “It could have been any pitch.”. Just blame it on Rodriguez.
I’m with the Nolan Ryan school of thought: toss the pitch count.
Matsui and Damon are gone. The DH will use Posada, Swisher, Jeter and ARod next season. We don’t necessarily have to sign Bay or Holliday for the OF, just get a reliable bat with above average defense.
I hope Matsui goes back to Japan so he can retire a hero instead of a pinch hitter/DH/platoon hitter in MLB
We were led to believe that CC was a horse, and he is resistant to leave games so I presume that he’s okay with it.
So now that CC has his big contract, his agent’s not calling to protect him?
So CC said it might be the 120 pitches. Didn’t he say earlier that he had the issue in the past?
And if CC thinks the load was too much, too early, they should sit him. But of course, CC is telling everyone with a recorder that he’s starting against the Mets.
So, it’s either a big deal or not.
we can let sabathia go 7 strong as long as hes under 115 pitches.
No need to push him into the 8th anymore unless he’s completing the game.
And when Girardi took him out after he sat for along inning, when his pitch count was low, CC and everyone else complained and said he should have been left in because he’s a workhorse who can throw 120 pitches.
I have no respect for CC saying that throwing 120 pitches earlier in the season is why he has a sore arm today. He’s the guy who has to say, Joe, I’m done. So, for instance, the Boston game where he fell part after pitching terrific for 7 innings – where was his complaint about having hit his limit? Maybe he should have said, after walking Pedroia, hey, Joe, I’m done.
Puh-lease.
Does no one talk to one another on this baseball team?
Not only that, CC, the other day, suggested it was the heat, I think, and in any event he said he wasn’t worried and he was making his next start, while Girardi was saying he wasn’t so sure.
I know I sound like I’m all over the place on this, but when do the players get to be accountable? They sure take their paychecks. They make sure the right music is played in the right order when they come to bat or take the mound.
Did CC volunteer this new information, or did a reporter ask, could it have been the 120 pitches and CC said, maybe, could be?
So, now this workhorse that the Yankees paid $160 million for is saying he really isn’t a workhorse until June? But he could pitch on 2, 3 whatever days rest last season going 8 or more innings each time and that wouldn’t bother him at all??? Not at all????
I feel like screaming!
Such is the scrutiny of playing in NY. WIN NOW!!! but dont over use your players… Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. There is only one cure however. WIN NOW! such a paradox
I love this site:
http://www.flipflopflyin.com/f.....index.html
Check out the ticket prices graph.
DB -
I don’t know how accurate that report about CC not getting treatment is, because in today’s paper (special to the Star Ledger) Mark Feinsand said CC DID get treatment yesterday. So which was it?? Did he or didn’t he?
Girardi is managing for his job. He is not managing for CC’s future if it means losing his job this year. CC’s future affects Girardi’s future ONLY if he can hold onto this job. And he can’t do that by losing series.
Same deal with Al.
If the team makes the playoffs this year, he can make it up to them next year.
If not, he’s gone anyway, so what’s an arm (or a hip) gone to him? No more than those rookie pitchers he blew up in Florida are to him today.
I brought all of this up in April/May and was brushed off by most here including you, Pete.
“He’s a different kind of pitcher”, I think was the quote.
As long as he feels good after his throw day (today?), I assume he will be good to go on Friday, and I hope that Joe is scared straight and avoids running him out there past the 110 pitch point. I say all pitch limitations come off in August and September if CC hasn’t had any recurrence of the tendonitis and the team is in must-win mode (which they probably will be judging by how this year is going).
Ooh, Doreen. You felt the same way I did. Thank goodness. I thought my sensitivity chip was broken.
Unfortunately, the bullpen was bullcrap in the early games and that may have clouded Girardi’s decisions.
But to the person who posted last night that no other team had abused CC like the Yankee have, that’s total BS. If anything happens to CC, it’s on the Brewers, not the Yankees.
I think GB7’s earlier post needs to be reposted before people have a cow:
“Must be a slow day. Now the media’s reading into comments by Sabathia. “It could have been the 120 pitches this year.”, could also mean, “It could have been any pitch.”. Just blame it on Rodriguez.”
Jerkface
June 23rd, 2009 at 1:27 pm
I hope Matsui goes back to Japan so he can retire a hero instead of a pinch hitter/DH/platoon hitter in MLB
— —- —
That would be good to see. I always thought he got squeezed on a lot of close calls over the years beacuse umps knew he would never argue. The man is a true professional and I only wish the best for him.
And, to be fair, no more than Tanyon Sturze is to Torre today.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN,
Amazing that the Rays have a $270 seat, the Marlins have a $325 seat, and the World Champion Phillies charge just $60 for their most expensive ticket.
m -
I would add that it’s also on CC. When he says “I want the ball,” he’s taking the responsibility. Also, with ARod – when he’s saying – I’m okay to play – he’s overriding the advice of his doctors. Yes, there should have been a plan, but it’s occurring to me that these are grown-ups (maybe) who need to take responsibility for their career choices.
I don’t think CC was blaming the way he’s been used this year.
close games are fine to have him in there.. push him a little but those games that Girardi left him in with 5+ run lead and him over 100 pitches.. that’s a little ridiculous.
That would have to be my biggest complaint with Girardi and CC.
:yawn:
Beat writer needs a controversy, I guess.
“Sabathia has thrown 119+ pitches three times this season: April 16 (122), May 2 (119) and June 11 (123).”
Oddly, the Yankees lost all three of these games. One game he just didn’t have it, but in the other 2 he went into his final innning having 1) allowed only one run and 2) already having thrown his 100th pitch.
Something for Joe G to think about.
I don’t get why the Yankees are not making CC take an MRI – but then, I shouldn’t be surprised at this point
Doreen, Here you go straight from the source LOHUD and Pete!
Notes: Lefty CC Sabathia, who left Sunday’s game in the second inning with a sore biceps, did not receive treatment yesterday. With the Cubs and Braves playing a makeup game at Turner Field, the trainer’s room was not available. According to general manager Brian Cashman, the Yankees have yet to order tests for Sabathia, who expects to start Friday against the Mets. … Outfielder Xavier Nady was 2 for 3 in a scrimmage at the team facility in Tampa, Fla. The outfielder, who is recovering from an elbow injury, will start a rehabilitation assignment with Triple-A Scranton tomorrow. … The Yankees filed an official protest with the commissioner’s office after Sunday’s disputed loss to the Marlins. A decision is expected this week.
It was in the notes from the Journal News
I’m not buying that the fans and media have enough mental stability to hear anything other than “I can play” from an athlete. Almost anything other than that and they are a malingerer.
Am I the only one who is sick to death of injury clouds always hanging over this team?
Can we ever get a team of guys who can just go out and play everyday?
Not meant as an indictment of anyone, just a generalized tiredness of this stuff.
E=Gawa -
But one of the reasons they signed CC was his ability to take on innings.
And nothing happens in a vacuum. If Wang is Wang, the bullpen doesn’t get abused, yada, yada, yada.
Doreen,
Great post, I agree 100%. Clearly, the communication on the team seems to be lacking.
Wow, CC threw Joe under the bus……..
I think GB7’s earlier post needs to be reposted (again) before people have a cow:
“Must be a slow day. Now the media’s reading into comments by Sabathia. “It could have been the 120 pitches this year.”, could also mean, “It could have been any pitch.”. Just blame it on Rodriguez.”
//I hope Matsui goes back to Japan so he can retire a hero instead of a pinch hitter/DH/platoon hitter in MLB//
Dice-K can go with him. The WBC has rendered him toast and you will not see him for the rest of the year. Although I have to say: Wakefield, Beckett, Penny, Lester and Smoltz isn’t too shabby. The soon-to-be-most-wins leader, 2 Yankee killers, the best lefty in the game and a future hall-of-famer! ….not too shabby!
Sox set to pull away from the run-of-the-mill pack with SS Nick Green leading the team!!
Why can’t the Yankees get players like that?
DB -
I read that. I’m not saying YOU were being inaccurate. I’m saying Feinsand reported the exact opposite in his column. Feinsand said CC DID have treatment yesterday. Pete said he didn’t. I just don’t know whose report to believe.
Ah yes now it’s time to make a mountain out of the fact that CC acknowledged that throwing 120 pitches 3 times might make tendonitis in his biceps occur–let’s start analyzing his quote to death and complaining about how this reflects on the team’s mental makeup and relationship with the manager and all that psychobabble.
The reason CC got his contract was because of his rubber arm.
If he can only pitch 6-7 innings and takes himself out after 100 pitches, we might as well should have gotten Santana.
If CC has a problem with 120 pitches, he needs to speak up. I never even knew this could be an issue considering how much of a workhorse CC was known to be.
I wouldn’t count on Smoltz being that savior they’re expecting.
Here’s the thing about his pitch counts last year….he wasn’t effective till almost mid may…so not throwing that a lot pitches was a result of his ineffectiveness…
You can repost it as many times as you want, but IMO CC didn’t need to say that and there is only one way I can reasonably interpret this comment. He came out and said that his soreness could be due to the 120 pitches this year – nothing to misinterpret, it’s very straightforward. Hmm, like CC didn’t throw a million pitches in the last month of the season on 3 days rest? That couldn’t have anything to do with it?
I think the losing is making everyone in Yankeeland cranky, not just the fans.
Oh Nick Green, the great (9-10 errors, something like that) defensive shortstop whose bat is going to come back to Earth soon and make all Sawks fans lust for the illustrious Jed Lowrie or Julio Lugo again? Yawn.
betsy-Or it could have meant, “It could have been any of the 120 pitches I have thrown”.
These are humans, not machines. They are not going to say something that sounds totally controversy free every time, so the best we could do is not jump to conclusions about what they mean.
There have been several games this season where even a casual observer could tell that CC was starting to look tired, was losing his best stuff and was being left in for a little too long.
So if it is obvious to a casual observer, why not obvious to the managers of this 200 million per year major league baseball team?
Admittedly, for much of the year the bullpen has not been reliable and therefore the temptation was to leave him in. But he is a much more valuable pitcher pitching seven great innings and then out rather than leaving him in too long and he gets slammed in the eighth.
I was just reading the previous thread and it looks like some people took offense to me commenting that Swisher clogs the bases.
If you follow baseball you would know it is a term used for a player who is slow and has no base running skills, a la Jason Giambi. Another high OBP guy who couldn’t get out of his own way on the base paths. RAB did an articel awhile back on the detriment that Giambi had when he was on base. For a simple look, just check out their runs scored.
He is a question to all you self proclaimed baseball geniuses. Why odes Swisher not have the second most runs scored if he has the second highest OBP?
Plus, CC also said that he’s had this achiness before and it was never a problem. At least I read that he said that. So, now not only is it a problem but the cause is the 120 pitches THIS season. Sigh.
How can anyone blame Girardi? His job is hanging in the balance. He knows if he fails to make the playoffs this year and gets fired again, his managing career is probably over.
Any of us were in his place, we would do the same thing. Do whatever necessary to win every game. Easy to criticize his panic moves from our desk chairs, but if we were in the manager’s seat ourselves, we would do the same thing.
betsy
June 23rd, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Wow, CC threw Joe under the bus……..
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Which 120 pitch game would it have been?
Sorry, but, although I don’t know what he meant to say, I’d assume that he meant that it could have been any game, any pitch. It wouldn’t be the first time a player was talking and had the words, meanings or inflection twisted to fit a “breaking story”. It certainly wouldn’t be a first for a NY paper.
>Wow, CC threw Joe under the bus
It’s a thankless job. None of the credit, all of the blame.
Andrew, I disagree – CC should not have said that. It does make his manager look bad…..and it completely absolves the Brewers of any blame. If he can’t pitch, then it’s up to him to tell Joe….and I feel that way about any pitcher. I think Joe overused him as well, especially early, but you can’t give the guy credit for being a horse and then not criticize him at all when he blames the pitch count.
“But to the person who posted last night that no other team had abused CC like the Yankee have, that’s total BS. If anything happens to CC, it’s on the Brewers, not the Yankees.”
The Brewers had him for 17 games. He threw more pitches for the Yankees in MAY than he did with the Brewers in SEPTEMBER.
It’s one thing to push a guy late in the season when you’re in the run for a playoff spot and it’s another thing to push a guy in the beginning of the season.
Does anyone on this team know how to communicate properly without sticking their foot in their mouth?
Everybody from the GM, to the manager, to the players, to the pitching coach.
Wait, I don’t agree……IMO, there’s no gray area here. Not everything is open to interpretation…..and this isn’t, IMO.
Maybe if his GM gave Joe a bullpen that didn’t require him to throw out Jose Veras and Phil Coke in big spots, CC wouldn’t have to throw 120 pitches.
FACT: Nick Green has never ground into a double play after the 3rd inning.
I don’t see a problem with him saying, “I threw lots of pitches and throwing one of them the wrong way could have hurt me.”
No one knows what CC meant which is why I think its reasonable to refrain from basically calling him a team cancer.
I don’t understand the need to have such a definitive and harsh criticism of his words when no one knows for sure what he meant.
Joel Sherman would criticize my last comment for infringing on First Amendment rights.
Doreen
June 23rd, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Plus, CC also said that he’s had this achiness before and it was never a problem. At least I read that he said that. So, now not only is it a problem but the cause is the 120 pitches THIS season. Sigh.
————————————————————
Sabathia’s a big ol’ hoss, but, it was smoking hot and humid. Perhaps it was more of a heat cramp that happens fast and especially to someone as big as Sabathia is. Maybe it was just a twing. I have no way of knowing, but, I know that heat injuries can be interpreted as other injuries.
Saying that, I’ll just wait and see.
I want to hear the entire quote not just the snipped part to fit the argument.
Then CC should have told Girardi
“I’m only a horse in the 2nd half of the season. Take me out after 100 pitches in every start before then.”
betsy, it’s not an opinion thing…if people are interpreting it differently, it’s open to interpretation.
It’s an opinion how you interpret it. But not an opinion that there are different ways it can be interpreted.
I’m not going to go trash CC for something that is more than likely a NY media creation.
Imagine if Burnett made those comments?
The insults would be off the charts.
E-Gawa -
But the Yankees are in a pennant race from DAY freakin’ ONE!
It’s not even July, the Yankees are in 2nd place in their division, and Girardi’s job is already been talked about as being on thin ice. Yankee fans wear it as a badge that the goal for the season is WS Champs or bust. Every game is of paramount importance. No room for error, no place for wimps who can’t or won’t play hurt.
If you tell a guy that is the goal, the way he manages a team is to win every single game.
It’s a nutty work environment.
This teams problem isn’t that they stick their feet in their mouths. Its that they aren’t running away with the AL East. If they were, everything wouldn’t be analyzed because people would be too busy planning WS trips.
How is he definitively blaming the pitch count? It’s pretty soft language that is now being accepted and passed off as “CC is blaming Girardi”. What is CC supposed to do, definitively say “No way could it be that I threw 120 pitches 3 times this year”? He handled the way the Brewers used him and I don’t think it’s time to assume that he can’t handle the way the Yankees want to use him, and nor do I think Girardi is absolved from the responsibility of not pulling Sabathia out of games even when he says he feels fine. I thought we established that all athletes are idiots and will say they feel fine when their leg is broken if it means they get to keep playing?
Doreen,
I understand he was brought here for innings but he’s not superman.
If anything happens to his arm because of going the distance on games in april/may. That’s it. Seasons over.
Andrew-I could attest to that. As being part of sports teams in the far yonder past, I know that we look at people who don’t play through injuries that the other players think they could play through w/less respect. I myself have hidden injuries in order to keep playing.
“I was just reading the previous thread and it looks like some people took offense to me commenting that Swisher clogs the bases.
If you follow baseball you would know it is a term used for a player who is slow and has no base running skills, a la Jason Giambi. Another high OBP guy who couldn’t get out of his own way on the base paths. RAB did an articel awhile back on the detriment that Giambi had when he was on base. For a simple look, just check out their runs scored.
He is a question to all you self proclaimed baseball geniuses. Why odes Swisher not have the second most runs scored if he has the second highest OBP?”
Wow, Dusty Baker, is that you?
Maybe, just maybe, it’s hard to score runs when your RBI guys are Ramiro Pena, Cody Ransom, Brett Gardner, etc.? If he bats 2nd, I guarantee his runs scored increases.
The d00d ain’t fleet of foot, but come on, he ain’t a Molina.
I’m not sayin’ CC is a cancer. Far from it. But this remark seems out of character. And it’s inconsistent with other things he said just this week and in the past. And if he’s not reallly the workhorse he was advertised to be, that changes the way Girardi manages CC. He really needs to be upfront with what he is and is not capable of doing. Has he heard his manager say CC and AJ are different, they’re pitch counts can be higher? If he is saying that isn’t necessarily so, then maybe he needs to tell his manager that or pitching coach.
CC stands for Contrived Controversy?
In the humble opinion of this Yankee fan, CC is the least of our worries in the rotation. If evidence emerges in the future that this is not the case, I will reconsider my opinion.
CC’s ability to throw a high number of quality innings was one of the reasons why many of us wanted him signed in the first place. But part of the pro-CC thinking was that he wouldn’t HAVE to throw as many innings in pinstripes (because of the other innings-eaters in the rotation and because of our nifty bullpen arms) and would have more left in the tank come October. Ah, the best laid plans…
I’m looking forward to CC’s next start but right now I’m just thinking about tonight.
“It’s a nutty work environment.”
You can say that again.
Yankees fans = entitled, spoiled, lunatics.
Nick in SF-We agree.
Have you guys heard of the fake umps?
http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/0.....ht-of-fan/
They sound like a bunch of idiots to me, more annoying distractions from the game. But the worst part of it, the Yanks gave them front row Legends seats for a July series against the Blue Jays. Yankee fans can’t afford those seats, but a couple of idiots who are going to be rooting for the opponent get them free? Ridiculous!
i really don’t see the difference in throwing 110 pitches or 120 pitches – will 10 extra pitches really make that much of a difference – if they do then we should stop calling these people athletes..also if you throw to first base in a pickoff attempt isn’t that the same as throwing a pitch? why don’t they count? and finally if cc is having issues with throwing 120 pitches maybe he should stop giving up homeruns to the 7th , 8th and 9th place hitters that are struggling to reach the mendoza line in average…..and not walking batters when he has a 0-2 count on them….
Wasn’t Torre fired a bunch of times? Why would Girardi have a hard time finding a job? I think that someone coming from the Yankees might have a pretty easy time since everyone understands that the rules are tougher for a Yankee manager. It’s not like you’re saying Girardi has a losing record!
Most athletes aren’t the smartest or most honest people in the world when it comes to injuries or pain. You have your Mickey Rivers, Jim Palmer,Ricky Hendersons, Gary Sheffields and players like that who will fake injuries or the severity to “make their point” or do an “I’ll show them”.
Then you have guys like a Mickey Mantle, Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson, who was hit in the leg by a batted ball and stayed in the game to get the final out with a broken leg, actually chasing down the bouncer to throw the runner out. They do stupid things because they think it’s their job. Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Rodriguez and Sabathia fit this category.
Doreen,
Girardi has a cake walk and a great team. His job environment is nothing in comparison to what Torre had to put up with.
This is not the George Steinbrenner Yankees anymore. There’s pressure sure, but not that kind of pressure.
By the way, I’d rather Wang struck out w/ the bases loaded ever at bat rather than get a hit after the disaster last year that ruined our season.
7.2- 108
8 – 99
9 – 112
8 – 111
7 – 105
8 – 110
7.2- 109
These are half of Sabathia’s starts this year and a pretty fair indication of what he can do when he’s going well. Would seem that where many pitchers struggle at or around 100 pitches, Sabathia’s threshold may be closer to 110.
In his 2 120+ pitch games, one versus Boston and another against the Angels, he pitched very well (7 IP, 1 ER and 6 IP 1 ER) before getting roughed up a little after pitch #110.
Cashman and Eliand have ruined Wang!
Wake up and smell the coffee
I like to see CC’s comments in their full context.
Cloudy Context?
Andrew
June 23rd, 2009 at 1:53 pm
How is he definitively blaming the pitch count? It’s pretty soft language that is now being accepted and passed off as “CC is blaming Girardi”. What is CC supposed to do, definitively say “No way could it be that I threw 120 pitches 3 times this year”? He handled the way the Brewers used him and I don’t think it’s time to assume that he can’t handle the way the Yankees want to use him, and nor do I think Girardi is absolved from the responsibility of not pulling Sabathia out of games even when he says he feels fine. I thought we established that all athletes are idiots and will say they feel fine when their leg is broken if it means they get to keep playing?
======
And reporters wonder why players aren’t honest with them. The guy was just giving an honest speculation and already there’s a leap to an assumptive – and negative, of course – subtext.
mark,
Girardi would have a tougher time getting another managing job if he were fired since he didn’t particularly excel at anything as the Yankee manager.
The bullpen was good last year. Now this year it stinks. Players that were good in the pen last year for him are released or in the minors.
His lying to the media about injuries and getting surly over it will stain him for awhile.
Then not qualifying for the post season w/this pitching rotation, Mo as closer and some of the bats they have in the lineup is not going to help him.
Potential employers will ask him why didn’t the players excel under his watch and if he dares cite salary, he won’t get the job because most owners outside of FLA know at some point they have to pay their talent.
If he can’t manage players with high salaries then he can’t manage in the bigs.
He’s in a bad position and a great position at the same time. He has the horses to win here but if he can’t get them across the finish line he’s done in NY.
I’d also like to tie Wang into all of this. The fact that they saw nothing wrong with this guy in Spring Training and what his problem turned out to be should also be considered with their handling of ALL of the pitchers. CC, AJ, Joba (especially with his 89mph fastball to start games).
PC Dan
June 23rd, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Cashman and Eliand have ruined Wang!
Wake up and smell the coffee
————————————————————
Give it a rest and drown yourself in your WB Mason coffee cup.
We’re talking about George King here. Something tells me that CC said more than what was quoted in that article which would place his comment in a more proper context than what was quoted in that article.
I am yet to push the panic button.
Let’s see what shakes out before we get all uppity.
Fortunately, we have a lot more depth at starting pitching than ever before, so if the guy has to miss a start or two, we can get through it.
Why don’t you guys who hate on Cashman tip your caps to the guy for once. CC is our Ace, yes, but we have depth.
E-Gawa,
I think this regime has proven they have no idea how to handle pitchers. Our projected “vaunted” staff to start the year has been turned into mediocrity. Joba and his 89 MPH fastball in the rotation, Andy starting games with a bad back, Wang’s issues, CC being overtaxed and now not getting an MRI etc.
oh and lets stop worrying about girardi finding work if/when he gets fired..
he has millions of dollars in the bank – i don’t think he’ll be hurting if he gets fired and never manages again in his life – plus ESPN or MLB network will eventually hire him as another analyst on their shows – hell if steve phillips and john kruk can keep their jobs i don’t think girardi will have a hard time finding a gig like that..
By the way, this is why Jeter acts and speaks the way he does to the media because any little comment you thought was innocent can be turned around to look quite different than what you intended it to be.
Andy just had a brilliant start vs. the Marlins.
Girardi will manage beyond 2009 for someone, Yanks or not. He’s way too young to write off and his experiences in Florida and NYC have shown him both ends of the financial and player development extremes.
That said, I want him to succeed because I want more post-season baseball. It’s not his fault about Alex’s hip or Matsui’s incredible decline. Add in all the absences among injured pitchers, Nady, Molina et al they’ve done a good job of hanging in there.
CC was probably just wondering out loud why he came up a bit sore… we’re all wondering the same thing. I criticized the 122 pitches in April as too many for that early in the season. The Yanks led 7-5 after 6 innings and he was near 100 and was sent out there anyway and gave up two more runs.
FIRE DAVE EILAND!
Cash is King June 23rd, 2009 at 2:09 pm
We’re talking about George King here. Something tells me that CC said more than what was quoted in that article which would place his comment in a more proper context than what was quoted in that article.
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Ding ding ding ding! We have a winner!
My guess would be that CC said that in a kind of unsure, simply trying to guess type of manner.
Who pays attention to anything George King writes? HE is the definition of a hack if there ever was one.
Somebody explain to me how a 120 pitches in April comes up with a sore bicep in late June?
Personally I think it was a crap move by CC to mention that it may have been the 120 pitches that caused or contributed to his arm soreness. Girardi is already being beaten up enough for ARod and how the team has handled other injuries this year and in the off-season. Every time this year that Girardi has visited the mound with CC on it he’s demanded to stay in the game, sometimes being left in and other times being taken out. if he really thought the 120 pitches were the issue, he should have said so, but to Girardi and not the press. Maybe he didn’t realize the issues saying that could cause, but he seems smarter than that to me.
For all the talk about how AJ gives up key runs late in games…. CC has done the same thing in numerous starts this year. Infact, he has recorded most of his losses/NDs because he blew a late lead himself.
But when CC blows leads, it is because he is tired and Girardi’s fault
When AJ blows leads, it is because he has no guts and was a terrible signing
What is wrong with this picture?
CC threw 109 last start.
Honestly with Bruney there, I didnt’t see the need for him to pitch the 8th. He got 2 outs and the walked Nick. 12 pitches.
I guess he has a different standard but it wasn’t like Bruney was overworked.
Danny-What is wrong is that CC has so totally outpitched A.J. that they can’t even be mentioned in the same breath.
I think it’s a crap move that fans are assuming which 120 pitches, CC is talking about. Perhaps, he was saying that he doesn’t know how he came up with a sore bicep that it could’ve happen on any of those pitches during his last start.
“Somebody explain to me how a 120 pitches in April comes up with a sore bicep in late June?”
Probably doesn’t. The 123 pitches on June 11th may well have been his reference point. Sadly, what he was talking about is not clear in Pete’s post, though he did rather clearly dismiss his use in Milwaukee as a reason for whatever ailed him.
Girardi has made over $30 million dollars between playing and managing.
He’ll also latch on to MLBN or FOX if he gets fired
He’ll be fine.
“Every time this year that Girardi has visited the mound with CC on it he’s demanded to stay in the game, sometimes being left in and other times being taken out. if he really thought the 120 pitches were the issue, he should have said so, but to Girardi and not the press.”
So why is this CC’s fault exactly? It is Joe Girardi’s job as manager to make the right decisions about his players’ limits and when to take them out of games and leave them in games. Girardi should be able to tell when 120 pitches are an issue for CC’s effectiveness, and he should be able to adjust his use of CC after something like the scare in Florida occurs. If he can’t, then that is on him, not on CC for not begging out of the game when he found out he had thrown 110 pitches. Or for basically speculating that his tendonitis could, key word COULD, have been a result of throwing 120 pitches a few times this year. I am already over this Contrived Controversy and hope we get back to just talking about Carsten Charles’ performance on Friday at Citi Cfield.
What’s wrong with that picture is that you’re ignoring the central truth of the 2009 season: when AJ flops, it’s due to our Contaminated Catcher.
The fact that CC added the “it could be the 120 pitches this year” in response to refuting the claim that he was abused to Milwaukee shows that his comments are not being taken out of context.
It doesn’t look like King asked a follow up question about if it was the 120 pitches and CC responded with a “maybe”.
So he wasn’t provoked on by King, he added those comments himself.
“While I don’t recall attacking you personally, the point was missed on your part.
Swisher clogs the bases because he doesn’t know what to do when he gets on base besides brain fart. ”
I did not attack you DB, I was simply making a joke about your name because Dusty Baker once said that OBP is useless since extra baserunners clog up the bases… Which is completely absurd.
So by your logic you’d rather see Swisher strike out instead of take a walk?
Someone Else, thank you for completely missing the point. Swisher isn’t fleet of foot. Nor does he know how to read a play directly in front of him. No one in baseball makes that mistake. The guy is a nut bag. He belongs in the bottom of the order.
No, I would obviously like for him to get on base. My only contention is that he doesn’t belong in the top of the order.
“Probably doesn’t. The 123 pitches on June 11th may well have been his reference point. Sadly, what he was talking about is not clear in Pete’s post, though he did rather clearly dismiss his use in Milwaukee as a reason for whatever ailed him.”
Which is more to my point, the media which Pete is a part of along with that hack George King are speculating as to what caused CC’s injury. He appears to not know himself so we have a CC quote that may or may not be in it’s full context that can be interpreted in more than one way.
I did say I wanted to see the context of what CC said. Was it a direct statement, a response to a direct question, or a partial quote?
But it is a bit disconcerting, I think, if CC can’t throw as many pitches as we thought he could.
His work load has a lot to do with everything else going on with the team. The domino effect of other pitchers not pitching well, of the bullpen imploding early in the season, of not wanting to fall out of anything early, all of that.
And I beg to differ that Girardi’s job is a cakewalk. Torre had good teams too, and some may argue he had better teams. Torre’s job didn’t get on the line, seriously, until after 2004. The 4 WS bought him a lot of good will. And almost got him 2008, if he accepted their offer. But that’s neither here nor there. Every Yankees manager has the same directive: Win the World Series.
We’re all on edge I think.
And there’s information overload, too. Too many stories to fill too many papers and other news outlets and too many stats to twist whichever way we want to.
Too many incomplete quotes to interpret.
Too much handwringing.
And too much thinking that just because it’s the Yankees they’re immune to bad luck, bad circumstances, bad decisions, bad at-bats and bad pitches.
And too little celebrating when good things happen. Even if they’re small in nature. You can’t celebrate the single win because only a WS is worth celebrating. So you miss all the good stuff in between. (And by “you” I don’t mean a particular person.)
Anyway, a win sure would be nice. It might go a long way toward easing the tension a bit.
“I wouldn’t count on Smoltz being that savior they’re expecting.”
See, the Red Sox aren’t expecting him to be a “savior” because they don’t need one. They got Smoltz on the cheap and if it turns out that he’s cooked they still have Buchholz waiting in AAA.
They can definitely afford the risk.
Here give this a read to get you thinking a little bit more on the subject..
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ency-9607/
Me, can they? It is very, very possible that neither he nor Bucholz perform up to expectations.
Why does A-Rod call him “Mark Texshera”?
Fire Girardi before he destroys this team.
“Which is more to my point, the media which Pete is a part of along with that hack George King are speculating as to what caused CC’s injury”
Given the ambiguity of the quote, they don’t seem to have much choice. Maybe George King will learn about follow up questions in Journalism 102.
Doreen, I couldn’t agree more with you about information overload.
We know so much, but at the same time we really don’t know anything about what goes on behind the scenes.
If he is starting against the Mets, I suspect it isn’t that serious. The only concern I have is that Girardi is losing the team. The fact that the ARod decision was made/communicated on a call with Cashman and the Steinbrenners indicates a fault line in the chain of command. Sabbathia’s subtle, but clear, admonishment through the media is out of charachter and a bit alarming.
From my perspective, Girardi’s problem is that he is naturally dishonest, resulting in his self-created problems with the media. When asked a question he instinctively lies (actually he blinks 8 times during the question and then lies). As a result, he puts his players in awkward positions. A small, but telling example occurred after Sabbathia’s Boson outing. Girardi went to the mound before Drew’s 8th inning at bat. According to Girardi, he told CC Drew was his last batter; according to CC he said no such thing (watching the rewind it is clear that he did not say it). It’s a trivial, instinctive lie. It is meaningless except that it surely undermines the manager’s credibility (especially taken in the context of numerous similar examples).
“It is very, very possible that neither he nor Bucholz perform up to expectations.”
Judging by the awe in which some of the posters on this board hold the Red Sox, this has to be impossible. Surely Penny, Smoltz and Buccholz will ALL dominate and Boston will not lose another game this year!
April 16 is way too soon to throw 122 pitches. Beckett threw 105 on April 18.Pitchers should start slowly and then increase. I checked Beckett’s starts and the highest he threw was 120 on May 16.
Has it been 60 days already? Yikes.
Adios Berroa…..I hope.
“Cody Ransom’s stint on the 60-day disabled list will end Wednesday.
At that time, the Yankees will either have to add him to the major league roster or designate him for assignment and risk losing him. “
“Given the ambiguity of the quote, they don’t seem to have much choice. Maybe George King will learn about follow up questions in Journalism 102.”
How do you know if there wasn’t a follow up comment or question? I don’t trust George King based on his past history.
My point is not that it’s CC’s fault he was left in the game. Every pitcher should want to stay in and I’m all about that…the real point I was trying to make was that if 120 is the problem, CC should say so to Girardi in his office privately, not to a reporter
Judging by the awe in which some of the posters on this board hold the Red Sox, this has to be impossible. Surely Penny, Smoltz and Buccholz will ALL dominate and Boston will not lose another game this year!…to the yankees
Another thing about CC’s outing in Boston. When Girardi went on the mount he said to CC lets go get him. He never asked him if he is okay to continue. Girardi lied about CC want to stay and face him.
It’s not the number of pitches by CC or the number of games played by ARod that is concerning (to me). I am concerned that these guys may not have sufficient trust in Girardi to have open conversations about it.
Doreen,
I guess we remember the Steinbrenner years different.
But it’s already been made a bigger deal than it is…CC more than likely was just thinking out loud about possible causes for the soreness.
Either that or he had to come up with some answer quickly to avoid the truth…as the great Meat Loaf said in Something About Mary…”he was masterb*ting!!”
18-0 doesn’t work out so well for those New England teams.
Christina,
Correct. He clearly lied and it put CC in the awkward position of unwittingly contradicting the manager.
But the fact that it was a pointless, gratuitous lie, must bring pause to an intelligent guy like Sabbathia; I would think it brings into question not only the manager’s integrity but his judgment as well.
Finally CC has shown he’s been used for too many innings.
I’ve not had as of yet,the warn and fuzzy feeling toward him.
Last year,when traded to the Brewers,he was lethal in the NL central,just nasty,with his stuff,Feared.
I was let down by CC on opening day,against the Orioles.I wanted him to establish himself in the AL East.His previous stats showed he owned the Orioles and yet,Yankees lost.That’s when I stopped relying on hype.
He’s a good pitcher,but but I’m not impressed,YET!!
I’d love to see an episode of “Lie to Me” where Tim Roth goes through a Girardi post game interview.
That’d be priceless!
I remember Sabathia start on Sunday against Tampa Bay. Where he only pitched 101 pitches and everybody was yelling that Girardi took him out too early.
Girardi hasn’t abused Sabathia this year. I believe that the Brewers abused Sabathia last year. He pitched a lot on 3 days rest. Usually its the next season is when you feel the affects of that.
As I said I suspect he lies instictively. I think the beat writers strongly suspect he lies habitually. I think the players know it. That can’t be good.
E=Gawa -
I know Torre and George “spoke.” But Torre was able to assuage George. And he had the rings. So, while George may have grumbled (and I don’t dispute that), I’m not certain Torre’s job was truly in question until after 2004.
Prior to Torre, though, no manager was secure.
The Committee
June 23rd, 2009 at 3:16 pm
As I said I suspect he lies instictively. I think the beat writers strongly suspect he lies habitually. I think the players know it. That can’t be good.
—————————————————-
All managers lie to the media Joe Torre wasn’t always honest with the media either.
Tee Jay,
There is a difference between failing to be completely forthcoming (particularly when it is to strategic advantage) and compulsively lying. Much in the way that failing to put a quarter in the parking meter differs from hosting a dog fighting tournament. Both are mistakes, but one indicates a profound charachter flaw while the other does not.
for those experts on this blog that say “its only june its too early to worry”..and crucify the “ledge jumpers and debbie downers”
Michael Kay just got on his show and said thats its NOT too early…he said that its been enough time to see the patterns….he said 3 of the 9 regulars are playing up to their capabilities (Tex, Cano and Melky) – he said jeter and posada are OK but nothing great and that damon is horrible (in the field), matsui is done and if this is the Arod thats going to show up the yankees are in trouble…
not that i listen to anyone on this blog who thinks they know what they are talking about – but if i’m going to listen to anybody i think michael kay may be somewhere near the top of that list – he sees what going on on the field and in the clubhouse, he knows the other teams and what they are capable of doing and he says its just about the time to put up or shut up…not wait until september, not june games mean nothing and especially thats its Ok to lose 2 out of 3 to the nats and marlins….
if you have a beef take it up with Kay – i happen to think he’s right…
not that i listen to anyone on this blog who thinks they know what they are talking about – but if i’m going to listen to anybody i think michael kay may be somewhere near the top of that list
=====
ok
CC Says its Joe G 120+ Pitch Counts
I must admidt I was livid on April 16th when CC was pitching in the cold wet weather 122 pitches in a 9-0 or something like that game. It was incredibly stupid! In April no less.
Now the CC should say something crap! No his job is to pitch. He most likely isn’t counting his pitches and it isn’t his job. Also, in the heat of the moment they all want to stay out there. It isn’t CC’s job to get him out of there. It is Joe G’s job and quite frankly he sucks at it. Joe G did the same thing in FL and he killed their SP’s arms and he was hated for it. Because the Marlins owner was a jerk, the press went Pro Joe G. He did a terrible job IMO.
Now the lines of communication are broken, because Joe G lives in that world of it is as I say it is. He is a control freak, and by definition there is no real communication. There is talk and orders. Joe G’s days are numbered. I thought with the earlier winning streak he would last the season, but now (no disrespect here SJ) I believe there is better than a 50% chance he is fired at AS break and deservedly so IMO.
sab
RUN FOR COVER,the pitbulls are sure to come!! This blog loves fairy tale land.To admit Arod is STICK A FORK IN IT DONE,would be too much to digest.
If the Yankees get the wild card,they still have to beat the sux’s.That’s when THE it’s only June those games didn’t matter ,will hit home.
And I am not suggesting that Girardi is a bad guy either. I am sure we all have friend who exaggerate and occasionally fabricate stories. Not bad people. Not leaders, either. In order to lead, whether as a coach, captain, teacher, or superior officer, you need to be believable and believed. I am not feeling that with Joe. My sense is that when things go badly, as they must over 162 games, it will always get weird.
“18-0 doesn’t work out so well for those New England teams”
Best comment of the day
Not that I want the yankees to lose all 18 regular games to the sox, but if we did and somehow beat them in the ALCS, it would be hysterical.
CC makes the mgr look bad,bwaaaah!!!
Joe looks bad all by himself,CC,just spoke the truth.
Who in their right mind,will take up for Joe as the mgr(not the player) he can’t handle this team,period.The Yankees stacked the team for him,and he isn’t getting the job done.
Joe love ya as a player,U stink as MGR.
Rayvt
I agree,,and if the Yankees don’t fire him,it’s because they want to save face.
This team and new stadium was built to generate REVENUE for the Yankees corp.People are going to get restless with a lackluster product on the field.Revenue will tank.
Pete,
The Yanks have had two managers in 14 yrs. They are obviously not the best team. Why does that that require firing a manager if they don’t win a title?
They are in the process of rebuilding while contending, always a tough task.
Ajax played right, center, and left the last three days. Somebody is about to be traded.
Oh come on! Give em some Topricin pain cream and get on with it! Pleease
The choice of champions baby…LOL