Happy birthday, Derek Jeter
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- June
- 26
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And so it came to pass in Pequannock, N.J. on this day in 1974 that Derek Sanderson Jeter was born.
One of the reporters asked him last year what was the best birthday he ever had. The Captain smiled. “Aw, you know I cant tell you that,” he said.
It boggles the mind.
————-
Speaking of good guys, Andy Phillips signed a deal in Japan. Good for him. It has to beat Triple-A.
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on Friday, June 26th, 2009 at 10:57 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
I love Jeter, even if he is a GIDP machine
Happy Birthday Jeter!!!!!!
Hope you get a win for your birthday
That GIDP machine is one of the top Yankees ever, a 1st ballot HOFer, and in the next 2 years will have the most hits in franchise history and most games played.
Jeter is the man.
Happy Birthday Captain:
Another All-Star start for a sure hall of famer.
Love Jeter
Every Yankee should have his work ethic class and heart.
no excuses against the crippled mets this weekend
Jeter is my favorite player of all time. I grew up watching him (sort of, I was 10 when he had his debut in 95). Not only is he a great hitter, good fielder at a skill position, and has a flair for the dramatic, he also parties like a bleeping rock star
Happy Birthday Derek “Double Play” Jeter! With all due respect, except for all the groundballs, he’s a great player.
as much of a perception there is about what he does you never see him in a bad spot, never embarrasses himself
Why is it that we always seem to remember Jeter’s birthday? Is it because it happens during the middle of the season? Or does it just seem to stand out more because it happens to be my birthday, too?
Happy Birthday Derek. A win tonight would be a good present.
I was 15 when Jeter made his full-time Yankee debut. I always rooted for the Yankees in the 80s and Donnie Baseball was my favorite player (but was too young to really love it), and there was definitely a vacancy when Donnie Baseball retired.
Derek Jeter made me watch the Yankees every day and is very much the reason I love baseball now as much as I do
“Or does it just seem to stand out more because it happens to be my birthday, too?”
This is obviously the reason.
Have a very Happy Birthday Drew
Just channel surfed and see Kate Hudson,she’s in NY,somehow Arod will be distracted you bet!!
Happy Birthday to you too Drew.
Erica, I hope you win the bet and get that dinner!
i don’t even know what that quote means. Anyway, thanks for the years….but I hope you don’t come back after next season.
Erica – newly OPPC June 26th, 2009 at 11:14 am
I was 15 when Jeter made his full-time Yankee debut. I always rooted for the Yankees in the 80s and Donnie Baseball was my favorite player (but was too young to really love it), and there was definitely a vacancy when Donnie Baseball retired.
Derek Jeter made me watch the Yankees every day and is very much the reason I love baseball now as much as I do
——————-
Donnie Baseball is the reason I’m a Yankee fan. I was a Mattingly fan first in the mid 80s and the team just grew on me.
I haven’t had a favorite player since the day Mattingly retired.
Im 23 now and started watching the Yankees around 94-95. Jeter is really the first player that I am really seeing from beginning of career to end. I dunno which sounds crazier the fact that he’s 35 or that he has been playing for 14 years.
On the second point about Andy Phillips. It is crazy to go back and think they kept him on the team and kept Carlos Pena to rot away in the minors.
Players who started at shortstop in one 7-year period before Derek arrived:
Bobby Meacham
Wayne Tolleson
Alvaro Espinoza
Mike Fischlin
Paul Zuvella
Andy Stankiewicz
Rafael Santana
Spike Owen
People, appreciate what we have. Derek may not be quite the player he once was, but (a) he’s still a hell of a player, and (b) consider the alternative; it wasn’t all that long ago that the above-mentioned gentlemen roamed the left side of the infield for the New York Yankees.
“i don’t even know what that quote means.”
He can’t tell us about what he did on his favorite birthday. Think about some of the things Jeter might do to celebrate his birthday.
Remember this, http://deadspin.com/sports/thr.....311288.php ??
Yeah, that times 100 is likely what goes on at one of Jeter’s birthdays.
Happy Birthday Jeets. How about for your birthday you don’t hit into a double play tonight. You are killing me.
Huh. I’ve been following baseball since around ‘96 or ‘97, and I just realized that I have the same birthday as Jeter. Guess I never really payed attention to baseball on my birthday when they would mention it.
Also, yay for me turning 21 today haha.
“i don’t even know what that quote means. Anyway, thanks for the years….but I hope you don’t come back after next season.”
Why? He’s been having a typical Jeter year offensively and his defense has been better than ever.
he was on base 6 times last night, relax.
If you want to get really technical about it, he was actually born in Pompton Plains NJ. It’s two towns wrapped up into one.
Too bad, he didn’t grow up there. It would have been cool to know him.
Happy B day cap.
And best of luck to Andy. I’ve always had a place in my heart for him.
so you think Jeter is getting better? Is that what you are telling me? I’m not concerned with this or next year, but you know he’ll want atleast 4 years. You want to deal with him during those years? Not me. Make the smart choice. Let him go.
“i don’t even know what that quote means. Anyway, thanks for the years….but I hope you don’t come back after next season.”
No one knows what it means, but it’s provocative!!!!
I’d say, taking his improved defense into account, Jeter is having his best all around year since 2003.
Only uninformed Yankee fans can wish Jeter would not come back next year.
And you wonder why some of us mock you on here.
The guy is still a great player, even at 35 years old.
He’s represented the franchise, and the game, the right way from the first day he set foot on the field.
Here’s a tip…..
You don’t get rid of guys like that, you clone them.
35 now?
You’ve come a long way kiddo.
http://weblogs.newsday.com/spo...../jeter.jpg
I can’t believe he’s 35, I remember being so excited to see him called up in May of 95. We’re all fortunate to have watched him play.
I give a little credit to the Mets, but the reason why it looks like they’ve been amazing just hanging in there is because Philly has been god-awful………..That said, I don’t go in for predictions. Two games by the Yankees are not enough for me to say they are “out of it”…….they’ll very likely get shut down by Tim Redding, knowing them. We’ll just have to see what happens. Hopefully CC is fine and AJ continues his good pitching….
I can’t believe Jeter is 35 – wow, it seems like yesterday that he won ROY. Who knew that he was going to be this kind of player?
As to Mo, I’m in awe – he’s by far my favorite Yankee. When he retires, the game will be all the worse. He’s respected and admired by everyone in the game – Mo is just a tremendous human being in addition to being a remarkable pitcher. I still have images of Mo and Halladay discussing the cutter – I think it was at last yaer’s All-Star game.
Actually, it would be a dumb choice to let him go.
Unless of course, you have a guy who hits .300 and plays SS in the Top 10-15 in the game defensively you are ready to plug into the spot.
Pretty tough to play the game of baseball without a shortstop. Even in video games.
Happy Birthday to DJ; the best SS of all time!
At least he’s the best in my 42 years…
I exzpect the Yanks to offer Jetes a one or two year extension after this season to ensure he reaches 3,000 hits in pinstripes. For all the squawking we do about his range, GIDP and so forth he’s still the best all around SS in the American League.
Happy Birthday Captain
Betsy,
I actually feel sorry for the guy who replaces Mo as the closer of this team. Talk about pressure!
Mo set a standard for the position that will never be matched, both in quality and length of service.
The poor guy who replaces him will be hated the moment he has the “nerve” to blow a save.
Talk about a thankless job!
The good news: You are on a major league roster of the most storied franchise in American Sports.
The bad news: You are replacing Mariano Rivera! lol
I guess a lot of Yankee fans’ favorite player was Mattingly. I worshipped him – he’s my baseball idol. It sickens me that his back problem deprived him of baseball immortality, but in a way, he has it because he is beloved around the game and especially by the Yankees and their fans. I remember an SI article involving a discussion on hitting between Ted Williams, Mattiingly and Boggs….classic. Donnie Baseball – what a great nickname. No one will ever play first base like he did – and so many classic moments at the bat (HRs in 8 consecutive games, 6 GS on the season, etc……). Nothing beat his HR against the Mariners – I’m just glad he retired having played in the post-season.
Wave Your Hat,
I think you are absolutely right IF you take out 2006 – the year he should have won the MVP despite his bad defense.
People get all worked up about Jeter’s defense but if you actually look at the stats and watch him play you know he’s been better last year and even better this year. He’s as good in the field right now as he ever was in the 90’s.
Jeter’s defense from 2005-2007 skew people’s perception of him. Those 3 years were all-time bad but otherwise he’s been a good SS defensively and a GREAT SS offensively.
Except if that guy is Joba or Hughes. I take the fans would embrace those two at the closer position.
P.S I’m not for them being relief pitchers, just saying.
Ya know .. Wang has struggled since his injury. What he’s shown so far this year has been ‘terrible’ to ‘mediocre’ to ’shaky’ to ‘adequate’ to ‘good’ and he hasn’t gotten to ’solid’ yet.
But he hasn’t forgotten how to pitch. One of these days, and I think it’ll happen this summer, it’s all going to come together for him and he’ll throw a shutout or two to re-establish his presence. That much I’m sure of. He could even toss a 2- or 1- or even 0-hit game. OK, the latter might be pushing it … all I’m really saying is sometime soon he’ll be dominant and all the worries about him will go away.
86,
The problem with wanting to DFA the entire team, which some of the children demand on here during and after losing streaks is, you have to replace these guys with real players.
Where are you getting the replacements?
The Red Sox have tried for years to find a SS. Its not as easy as folks think.
I agree, I think Jeter gets a 2 year extension and finishes his career as a Yankee.
He hits into too many DP’s. That’s the only weakness in his game. Everything else he does is either average or well above average, even at 35 years old. That’s pretty amazing.
It’s too soon to say what to do about Jeter in 2011. At his age and position, things could change quickly (hopefully, not). A lot will depend on what Derek wants, too.
We should just be glad Derek’s still playing well.
I think Jeter is going to stick around long enough to get his 3,000 hits and call it a career.
He doesn’t strike me as a guy the Yanks will have to really push out the door.
As an “uninformed” yankee fan (which is funny, by the way), I want nothing to do with Jeter after next year. I appreciate his half season spike this year, but you are the uninformed fan if you think this is what you’ll get for 4 to 5 more years. You can mock away, I find your homerism funny.
I have a feeling DJ is going to look as old as Matsui right after the Yanks extend him for 3 more years
The way Jeter looks this year, I can see him playing until he’s 40. He’s still a huge positive at SS, especially with the improved defense. I see no reason to let him go. He’d need to have 2 down years in a row before I accept that the end is near. That hasn’t happened.
If he wants 4 years after next year, I’d give it to him.
Not at 20mil though. Maybe he gets Posada money.
From the looks of his play this year, he’s got 2 more years at short before becoming a DH and utility guy.
Patrick, I thought pretty hard about 2006, and decided to penalize Derek for his defense that year. I may have over-penalized him, because his offense was spectacular, but I think he cost us enough runs with his glove to give the overall nod to his 2003 season.
Just a seat of the pants guess, though. I certainly could be wrong.
“Actually, it would be a dumb choice to let him go.
Unless of course, you have a guy who hits .300 and plays SS in the Top 10-15 in the game defensively you are ready to plug into the spot.
Pretty tough to play the game of baseball without a shortstop. Even in video games.”
Let’s keep it real.
If he’s brought back it won’t be at SS. He’ll be 37, 38 by the time his contract is up, it would way over due to move positions to the OF or 3B(oops). Teams, especially with the calibar offfenses the Yankees put out, can win with a defensive short stop. If pitching is the priority, I’d much rather have a defensive wizard at short stop then Derek Jeter despite the offense which will probably decline heavily in the late 30’s.
history says players don’t improve suddenly at 35. So you want to take a chance on 37?
chris,
If you actually watch the games and look at Jeter’s stats you’ll see there is no decline in his game. Defensively he’s improved over the last 2 seasons to the point where he is a net positive in the field this year.
Offensively he had a down year last year, especially in the power department. A lot of that has been attributed to the broken wrist he played with for a few months. His numbers this year are back up near his career averages. There is no indication that he is slowing down anytime soon.
To say you don’t want him after next year is silly and makes me think you are probably a red sox fan.
SJ, that’s an impossible position…I hope fans understand that what we’ve seen from Mo, in the most unnerving, demanding job in the game (for over 10 years!!) will never be seen again. I know I won’t knowingly compare anyone to Mo, but when that future closer blows a few saves, it’s going to be depressing because I’m so used to those games being lock down.
Mo would be a great pitching coach – do you think he has any interest in that? In fact, he’d be a great instructor to all minor leaguers in that he has so much to offer besides just baseball expertise. He has the best perspective of any player I’ve ever seen – nothing phases him. Even when he blows games – sure he’s upset, but he realizes that he’s done the best he can.
Yankees will never let Jeter go, and they shouldn’t. They signed Posada and Mo and will sign DJ.
Mo and DJ, 2 of the classiest guys and clutch too!
Fair enough Wave, that’s a judgement call on your part. I’m not going to look up how many runs over replacement, etc, he was in the field/at the plate. I do know that while he was pretty poor in the field he had an all-time great season at the plate, for a shortstop.
Happy Birthday Jetes.
Chris, your worries about a decline are valid. But the bottom line is that the Yanks will never let him get his 3,000th hit on another team. Especially since the Yanks have never had a player hit that milestone.
Patrick,
I actually watch every game. Have for the last 6 years. But I don’t trust my eyes on judging defense. I believe that is the trap alot of you fall into. You let your eyes and heart deceive you. I am admittedly not a huge Jeter guy, but I can’t believe we can’t find someone better to plug that hole in 2 years. Jeter has been much better this year, but why aren’t we using his bigger body of work to judge his defense. Like it’s been said, he is only getting older.
My two favorite players growing up were Mickey Mantle and Thurman Munson.
I was too young to see Mantle in his heyday. But, he did throw up in front of me at my dad’s bar when I was 6 years old! lol
Funny thing about it was, 15 years later, when I formally met him, I brought up that incident and he apologized profusely. He was a really nice guy. Troubled, but a very nice man.
My all-time favorite player was Thurman Munson. When I was reporting on the Yankees when I was in college, Munson scared the living daylights out of me.
I went to interview him, after I got sound of Reggie Jackson, and he said to me, “What did that #@#$% have to say now”? You have #@#$ wanting to talk to me after talking to him”!!
After the color left my face, he broke into a big grin, told me he was only kidding, and gave me the interview. From that point on, he was always friendly to me. Something I learned from the beat writers was a rare thing with him.
I get the same, sick feeling every August 2, as I did on August 2, 1979, the day he died.
Mattingly was great. Still is to this day. Friendly, charitable with his time for good causes, just a quality, quality person.
Lots of guys on the current team are the same way. Its a really good group of guys.
As you I older, and see some of the real jerks in sports, I come to appreciate the good guys in the game more and more because they are rare (sadly) these days.
Jeter 35 wow how the time has flown.
Happy Birthday to the Captain!
SJ.
The Sox looking for a SS reminds of the Bears looking for a QB.
Even as a sox fan I have nothing but respect and admiration for the player that Jeter is and the way he plays the game every day. I wouldn’t be a baseball fan otherwise.
-dennis
GW,
The expectations on Joba are ridiculously unrealistic right now. What are they going to be if you make him the closer after Mo.
I love how some people now only define Jeter by his recent spate of double plays.
The guy is hitting over .300, on pace to steal 40 bases – a career high – score 110 runs, and hit more than 20 home runs.
Despite the recent rash of double plays, he’s still the batter I want up with the game on the line and a runner in scoring position.
And he should rightfully be the starting shortstop in the All-Star game.
Jason Bartlett and Marco Scutaro have had nice, but flukish years. Bartlett could barely hit the ball out of the infield for 5 years and now he’s got a 1.000 + OPS. Go figure.
Hey, SJ – have you seen this, yet:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....y-sanchez/
Happy B’day Derek,
Wish I could hang with you tonight to help you celebrate but I’m sure you’ll have at least one very attractive woman dressed in a nice birthday suit to keep you company
Actually, using your eyes is probably the best way to judge defense because even the creator of the UZR metric says its a problematic tool. See Keith Law’s chat on ESPN the other day for more on it.
There is no “half season spike” in Jeter’s game. He has played pretty solid defensive SS for the past 2 years.
Offensively, he’s hitting with more power than he did last year. Probably because he is not playing with a busted hand.
Nobody is saying he is going to stay at SS for another 4 years. I am saying, he is the SS for the rest of this year and 2010.
Unless he has a sudden decline in his offensive game, they will re-sign to a new contract after 2010. He probably won’t stay at SS but, he will be a part of this team.
The same way you say Bartlett is having a flukish year(which he is), why couldn’t we say that about Jeter’s sudden expansion of his range at 35? It has to work both ways.
Jeter has in a number of way gone from being overrated in some aspects of his game to now under rated.
The focus of many sabermatricians on his defense has missed the fact that his defensive numbers from the past 2 years are actually much more mixed than the picture that some like to paint of him being the worst defensive player in the game. Is he a great defensive player? Not even close. Has he been averagish to slightly below average since he recovered from that knee injury that hampered him in 2007? Probably (the drastic divergence between his UZR/PMR/ Zone Rating data with his fielding bible data from last year is odd and still unexplained).
And if Jeter is even moderately below average defensively his bat still more than makes up for it.
On the opposite end of the spectrum too many fans harp on his grounding into double plays and his age e.g. no team has won a world series with a SS as old as Jeter is now (great gem by ESPN there…).
Over the past season and a half Jeter – offense and defense – has been the best SS in the AL and one of the top 5 SS in the game.
Do people think it’s really that easy to find a SS like that? Who cares if he’s 35 or grounds into double plays often. You still are very, very unlikely to find someone who would be an upgrade on that position.
Jeter has been the best SS in the AL this year and probably the second best SS in the game after Hanley.
He’s second in all of baseball for OPS by a SS and second in wOBA. He’s been league average so far defensively by UZR.
Good luck trying to replace that kind of production at SS.
Your not going to find it all that easily. All star SS don’t just grow on trees.
In the off season many people were already talking up signing JJ Hardy as a free agent two years from now because it’s never too early to figure out when to worry about what to do when his contract is up. Go check out how JJ Hardy is doing now.
My biggest concern with Jeter is that he no longer has a lot of reserve to deal with injuries. It’s now very clear that his awful defense in 2007 was likely related to that knee injury he wouldn’t talk about. It’s also clear that his fall off at the plate last year – especially his power – was influenced by him being hit in the hand by Daniel Cabrera. On the flip side many young SS who are touted as being better than Jeter are enormously injury prone e.g. Tulowitski.
Other than the fall off in performance when he gets hurt (and won’t sit) Jeter is still probably one of the top 5 SS in the game.
And the idea that you don’t continue to play him at SS for as long as he’s an overall positive at that critical position is misguided. It’s too hard to find good SS.
Aging gracefully
playing with youthful delight
The Yankee Captain
BTW – that Tony article was link to in Neyer’s blog today with this:
“As Erik Manning writes, maybe the Pirates knew exactly what they were doing when they drafted Tony Sanchez. (Also from FanGraphs: Free Seth Smith!)”
“Patrick,
I actually watch every game. Have for the last 6 years. But I don’t trust my eyes on judging defense. I believe that is the trap alot of you fall into. You let your eyes and heart deceive you. I am admittedly not a huge Jeter guy, but I can’t believe we can’t find someone better to plug that hole in 2 years. Jeter has been much better this year, but why aren’t we using his bigger body of work to judge his defense. Like it’s been said, he is only getting older. ”
Even if you don’t trust your eyes, go look at the stats. By UZR, Jeter is 3.3 runs better than the average SS this year. Last year he was essentially league average. From 2005-2007 he was terrible in the field. Prior to that he was again about league average.
Basically, Jeter has been one of the best 2-way shortstops in baseball this year. I see no sign of that changing anytime soon.
I’m not paid to be a scout, so I can’t imagine my eyes are as accurate as using UZR. Especially watching on TV. And I’d imagine 99% of people fall into that same category. Jeter is known as a very bad defensive player for a reason. If he has worked to improve his defense at 35, then I’m happy. But I would need to see it over a little bit longer period before resigning him. If he wants to stay at SS, that is. It would also piss me off that it took him till 35 to work on his defense
Once again Patrick, I’m not disputing Jeter’s defense this year. But when is it normal for a SS to improve defensively at 35? Let it play out.
Great post CB, I think that just about sums it up.
If there isn’t a SS to sign that is better than Jeter, even in his decline, this is a moot point. I just hope there is
Problem is, you can’t judge defense by TV, or completely by UZR for that matter, because you don’t know where guys are setting up on each hitter.
That’s why the only way you can accurately judge a player defensively is with your eyes.
The game is more than just looking at a stat sheet. Especially when you over rely on numbers to make a final determination of one’s skills.
Jeter’s SS play the last two years has been more than sufficient for a SS of any age. He’s not Ozzie Smith. He’s also not a stiff out there either.
Combine his offensive and defensive skills, even at 35, and he is one of the 3-4 best all around SS’s in the game.
As CB said, those guys don’t grow on trees.
SJ44,
Those are great stories. I met Mattingly back in 1999. He was my boyhood idol. What a gentleman he was.
My friend, who was a sports editor at the first paper I worked for told me to write a column about meeting my hero. It was my first job in journalism. I’m not a sports writer.
My dad still has a link to the column. Don put it up on his Web site shortly after it was published.
If anyone wants to give it read, I think the link still works.
Just so you know, this small paper had very little editing:)
Here it is…
http://earth.vol.com/~rconn/richard_article.htm
Chris, you keep saying the same thing about Jeter’s D except you fail to acknowledge that his D took a big jump in the metrics last year. So it’s not a half season blip as you called it earlier. Jeter is an avg SS based on the metrics and when you add in his well above avg bat you have one of the 5 best SS’s in the game.
SJ, lots of people like Thurman are gruff on the outside and teddy bears inside…..That’s cool that you had that experience with him. My father met Mantle once on a plane – all I know is that it wasn’t the most pleasant experience. You’re right, though – he was a troubled guy. His teammates seemed to just adore him, so that says something.
I don’t think about it when the Yankees are losing, but I’m glad the team is mostly made up of good guys…
“I’m not paid to be a scout, so I can’t imagine my eyes are as accurate as using UZR. Especially watching on TV. And I’d imagine 99% of people fall into that same category.”
So have you bothered to actually look at the data?
Because over the data over the past 1 1/2 years from UZR, Zone Rating, Relative Zone Rating, and Probabilistic Model of Range (available only for last year to date) all have Jeter as being a league average defensive SS.
And those metrics are all largely indices of range.
Other data suggests that Jeter is better than league average on converting balls hit into his zone into outs.
So you know before you make arguments based on data you might actually want to look at some numbers or at least line up a cogent argument for why you feel 1 1/2 years of fielding data is inadequate to dispel his poor feilding numbers from the 2 years prior.
Chamberlain will win 20+ games one year very soon. You Yankee fans are crazy if you want to put him in the bullpen.
jeter is on pace for an MVP caliber season
.308, 21HR, 109 runs, 70 RBI, 40SB – 2CS
good defense
From the leadoff spot? Dat’s Good!
Rishi,
I did not see that, thanks.
Funny thing is, baseball people I talk to have no problems with the pick and the Pirates reasoning behind the pick. Members of the media? Some of them have BIG problems with the pick! lol
Mainly because when some of these guys make up their mock drafts, they put a high premium on being right. When somebody comes along and shakes that up, it has to be because they aren’t the “right” player. It can’t be that they didn’t get the pick correct or, GASP, they may have underrated a player.
Look at the last 10 years in the draft and see where the best catcher in the country has gone. He has gone consistently in the Top 10.
If Tony played at a baseball factory like LSU, Texas or Miami, the same folks knocking the pick would be slurping all over him.
As George Clooney once said, “If you can’t take bad reviews, you are in the wrong business”.
Tony could care less about sofa scouts evaluations of him. He’s having the time of his life.
Played 4 games in State College. They were 2-2. He got the GW hit in his first game, and scored the GW run in his last game.
Hit .308, played flawless defensively, and got better calling games with each performance.
The Pirates are very, very happy with him so far.
Hopefully, he keeps it going when he gets to Charleston, WVA, his next stop, after the Johnny Bench Award Dinner this evening.
chris,
you aren’t reading what I’m saying. Look at his 2005-2007 numbers. Awful right? Now look at 2008 and 2009. Much much better. He isn’t just now improving. He started last year and it held up throughout 2008 and now into 2009. This isn’t a half-season reawakening. He’s been improved defensively for the past 2 seasons.
“But when is it normal for a SS to improve defensively at 35? Let it play out.”
When his defensive production was aberrantly poor in his year 33 aged season due to injury rather than a precipitous drop in his innate defensive ability.
There’s now close to a year and a half of data suggesting that Jeter is back to a league average defensive SS.
I don’t think you can compare a batting surge to an improvement in range. Every year some guy goes on a tear at the plate, falls off and never does it again. That player’s numbers will eventually move towards his averages if he has played enough to have valid averages.
Ranging to get the ball is pretty simple in comparison, it is a matter of physical limitations. I don’t know what explains his improved defense, whether it’s better positioning or some improved leg workout. My guess is some sort of leg conditioning given that his stolen bases are up and his percentage is great so it isn’t just taking more chances. Both of those things require very quick initial steps, which suggests stronger legs.
“Chamberlain will win 20+ games one year very soon. You Yankee fans are crazy if you want to put him in the bullpen.”
It’s not normal for pitchers to regress like he is. I think some of you Joba as a starter people are holding on a little to tightly now.
The problem with Derek is what he will want after the 2010 season, not now. Now, he’s an All-Star AL shortstop and all Yankee fans should be glad to have him.
But if Derek wants a multi-year, high salary contract after 2010, then that’s an issue. It is too soon to say what the proper response should be. Even if he’s playing at a relatively high level after 2010, if he wants 3 or more years it isn’t an easy call. At that age Derek will only be really productive as a SS, IMO, so moving him to another position isn’t really an option.
One thing that the data won’t take into account are Jeter’s intangibles.
Many of the great pros have that special ability to do the things that have a big impact on the game that doesn’t show up on the stat sheet.
That in itself is a major reason why Jeter is the impact player he is.
“My guess is some sort of leg conditioning given that his stolen bases are up and his percentage is great so it isn’t just taking more chances. Both of those things require very quick initial steps, which suggests stronger legs.”
And there’s evidence to back that up. After the 2007 season Jeter did a much more strenuous off season work out regiment for his legs than he had at any point prior to his career.
I remember the first or second game of last year against the Jays. Jeter ranged to his right and made a play up the middle that there was no way he would have gotten to the season before.
And your point on the stolen bases is a good one. Even with the tweaked ankle Jeter is running very, very well.
Betsy,
I often wonder how guys like Joe DiMaggio and Mickey would have fared with today’s media.
It was a different time when those guys played. The media kept a lot of the real bad stuff out of the paper.
Some of the guys used to actually go drinking with the players.
Its a whole different era today.
I had two experiences with Joe DiMaggio in my lifetime. Both weren’t pleasant. Just not a good guy at all.
I talked to some of his former teammates and they had the same experiences I had with him and they played with him for years!
In today’s media, I think Joe and Mickey would have gotten pilloried as much, or worse, than Arod ever has.
Its just a different time and how a lot of today’s players are viewed by fans are from the way they are covered.
The coverage is far, far more invasive and personal than it was in DiMaggio’s and Mantle’s eras.
I don’t think either guy would have held up under the scrutiny today’s players deal with on a daily basis.
All the more reason to respect Jeter. How he does it, I’ll never know.
A league average SS all his career should probably turn into a below average SS hitting his late 30’s. Agreed? That would be fine if his bat continued to be what it is and always has been. Why can we not expect some decline in his hitting, combined with a decline in his “league average” fielding? We are talking about 2 years from now. I’m not saying I don’t want Jeter now and next year. People are missing my original point. I said I didn’t want to resign him after 2010. That’s a long way away.
E-gawa June 26th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
“Chamberlain will win 20+ games one year very soon. You Yankee fans are crazy if you want to put him in the bullpen.”
It’s not normal for pitchers to regress like he is. I think some of you Joba as a starter people are holding on a little to tightly now.
————————–
How exactly has Joba regressed?
SJ –
what stood out to me more was that Neyer linked to the article today in his blog – that’s some serious attention!
You know we’re rooting for him/his success…just as long as he learns to the let Red Sox thing go
“But if Derek wants a multi-year, high salary contract after 2010, then that’s an issue. It is too soon to say what the proper response should be.”
True. But the issue right now is that many yankee fans seem to be using what might happen in the future as a criticism of Jeter’s playing ability and skill in the present.
How many people in Boston are fretting about what to be done when Ortiz’s contract is up?
What might happen in the future is no reason to start knocking his value in the present.
“Many of the great pros have that special ability to do the things that have a big impact on the game that doesn’t show up on the stat sheet.”
it doesn’t hurt to bat in the 2 hole for the Yankees either aka 2-4 fastballs per AB.
Sounds like everyone needs to relax with talking about Jeter’s future and let’s just enjoy watching him this season and next.
His contract expires after next season. I think it’s in everyone’s best interests to let these next two seasons play out, and then evaluate Jeter at that point.
That sad, I can already see the big story during next years spring training being the issue of Jeter’s future with the NYY, unless theres another steroid bombshell.
They were talking during a game about Jeter’s defense this year and gave credit to Kelleher. They said he was good at positioning players according to how they were pitching to each hitter.
How so? His stuff right now translates to being a starting pitcher. Especially with his velocity being down.
His fastball, even at 92-94, is still a plus pitch. His slider is a plus pitch. Especially when he locates it.
His curveball, which has been his consistently best pitch all year, is now a real weapon.
Overall, for his first full season as a starter, he’s pitched pretty well. As a #5 starters, his numbers are well above the league average for that slot in the rotation.
The problem as I see it is, unrealistic expectations from fans and media for what he should be right now.
Coach6423,
The velocity on all of his pitches except his cutter have gone down. That’s not normal for a young pitcher.
Brandon… “R.I.P. King Of Pop”
June 26th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
“Many of the great pros have that special ability to do the things that have a big impact on the game that doesn’t show up on the stat sheet.”
it doesn’t hurt to bat in the 2 hole for the Yankees either aka 2-4 fastballs per AB.
———————————————-
I’m refering more to his play in the field, baserunning ect.
SJ I think he’s one of those posters that saw Joba throw 100 mph 2 out of 4 pitches per AB in the 8th inning, they expect him to sit 94-97 mph for the whole game is my guess.
“It’s not normal for pitchers to regress like he is. I think some of you Joba as a starter people are holding on a little to tightly now.”
Your innuendo is incomplete. Are you trying to suggest that the starting is the cause of the so-called regression or that the so-called regression is evidence that he should not be starting?
“And there’s evidence to back that up. After the 2007 season Jeter did a much more strenuous off season work out regiment for his legs than he had at any point prior to his career. ”
He talked about that a bit before the 08 season. He said that his usual offseason routine is to bulk up and gain weight because as the season progresses he tends to lose a lot of weight. For 2008 though he decided to forgo that, stay lean and work on his lateral movement. We’ve seen good results in the field so far and with a health wrist he’s done well at the plate.
“I’m refering more to his play in the field, baserunning ect.”
I retract my statement.
It’s great to see Derek having a bounce back year.
Stay healthy, Derek!
“it doesn’t hurt to bat in the 2 hole for the Yankees either aka 2-4 fastballs per AB.”
That’s a completely generic criticism of any number 2 hitter in a good line up.
Dustin Pedroia won an MVP last year hitting from the 2 hole of stacked line up.
Don’t remember him getting knocked for it.
And Jeter is no longer hitting in the 2 hole – and despite that he’s having an outstanding season at the plate. Hitting in front of Johnny Damon isn’t going to have all that much influence in the kind of pitches you’re going to see and the OBP for the yankee 9 hole hitter hasn’t been very good this year so it’s not like he’s up with men on base all that often.
Joba throws a cutter?
I don’t understand why people keep saying Joba has “regressed” as a pitcher.
The fact is when he first came up he was an electrifying reliever who sported a 0.38 ERA in his rookie season. Last season his ERA was 2.60. So technically, his current 3.81 ERA (as well as all his peripheral stats) are a regression from what he did as a rookie.
However, Joba HAD to get worse because there’s no way any pitcher, much less a 23-year old is going to continue to put up sub-1.00 ERA’s. He only looks bad now because he was SO good before.
As for those who are worried about all the walks, high pitch counts, etc. just look at David Price and how he has struggled to go 5 innings in every start. And he’s supposed to be the best, most polished pitching prospect in baseball.
“Joba throws a cutter? ”
Nope he doesn’t.
There’s no need for it when he throws that slider.
I have had the pleasure of meeting his brother Dom on a couple of different occasions. He was the exact opoosite as you describe Joe. He was graciuos, humble and a great question asker to Amy and I as we are at his table at a charity that we both were/are heavily involoved with. He was a great guy and his baseball and business success did not go to his head.
-dennis
CB I wasn’t refering to this season.
I’m convinced Pedroia won the MVP because he was a small white guy, in the midst of a steroid scandal. Media sending a message.
How about this trade?? (are some people really this crazy):
Ron (Riverside)
Heath Bell for Phil Hughes?
Jerry Crasnick
Ron, The Yankees would love another back end of the bullpen option, but no way I see them trading Phil Hughes. Do you know that he turned 23 two days ago?
Funny thing about Jeter and his future, and fans fretting about it is, Jeter has given no indication of what he wants or doesn’t want after 2010.
I think its better to wait and see how it plays out than worry about it now.
When Derek Jeter does something that isn’t in the best interests of the franchise, let me know. He’s always been a team first guy. I don’t see a guy like Derek changing now.
If they want him to changes, I bet he agrees to it, if it means staying with the Yankees.
He’s not going to do anything to embarrass himself at this stage of his career.
“The velocity on all of his pitches except his cutter have gone down. That’s not normal for a young pitcher.”
Factually not true.
Joba’s average slider velocity this year is 84.1 MPH. That’s nearly the same as his slider velocity was last year after he converted to a starter.
His curveball velocity is nearly same. His change up velocity is nearly same.
Joba doesn’t throw a cutter so i have no idea what you’re referring to there.
RS don’t post common sense here, com’on you should know better.
“Ron (Riverside)
Heath Bell for Phil Hughes?
Jerry Crasnick
Ron, The Yankees would love another back end of the bullpen option, but no way I see them trading Phil Hughes. Do you know that he turned 23 two days ago?”
Who’s this idiot ?
“Your innuendo is incomplete. Are you trying to suggest that the starting is the cause of the so-called regression or that the so-called regression is evidence that he should not be starting?”
I’m stating that there is a regression and asking for someone to name another pitcher that this has happen to… to ease my concern… just one healthy pitcher.
That’s all.
Then I’ll shut up.
I have a pet theory that Jeter’s range increased due to a change in positioning introduced by a new coaching staff after Torre left and Girardi came in.
His improvement in UZR coincides with the coaching staff change and it seems to me he plays a little deeper now than he did pre-2007. Jeter always seemed to me to play a little shallower than the average shortstop, but he doesn’t anymore.
Playing deeper would allow him to get to more balls. I always wondered why he tended to play more in than other shortstops since his arm always seemed pretty good.
I don’t have any data to back this up – any thoughts?
*Starting pitcher
Sorry, not cutter. I meant Changeup.
Here’s a graph that’s following the averages of his velocity per start… as you can see, it’s all declining minus CU (changeup).
Happy Birthday Derek!
http://www.fangraphs.com/pitch.....position=P
“I’m stating that there is a regression and asking for someone to name another pitcher that this has happen to… to ease my concern… just one healthy pitcher. ”
Ervin Santana
Joba doesn’t throw a cutter.
There is no question his fastball velocity is down. However, let’s not get carried away. He’s not exactly Jaime Moyer out there.
He suffered a shoulder injury last year. You are going to lose velocity when you get hurt.
What is also true is his curveball and changeup are getting better and better.
I’m worried less about his velocity and more about getting him back to throwing the slider for strikes. When he does, even with diminished velocity on the fastball, he’s been dominant.
Last year, Hughes was throwing 91-92 for most of the season. Now, fully healthy, he’s back to 94-95 consistently.
Joba also has struggled with his mechanics this year and that has also hurt his velocity.
All in all though, its tough to be disappointed at what we are seeing from him as a starter thus far. Not a lot of 23 year old kids are in a starting rotation at the big league level.
Aside from Rick Porcello, who is younger than Joba, who else Joba’s age or less, is outpitching him at the big league level in a starting rotation this year?
No way you trade Hughes for Bell, but the Padsres would do it in a heartbeat.
SJ — I can’t match your Mantle experience, but I did ger to see him hit 2 HR in a game twice, including the last time in his career on Memporial Day 1968 against the Washington Senators. He went five-for-five with two doubles. He didn’t play game two and I cried… I was almost ten (two weeks away).
Chris — If you are gonna say goodbye to Jeter you have to have a plan for replacing him. What SS that’s available would be an improvement? Let me help you with that… there isn’t one!
Jeter hate on his birthday – real nice
BTW he breaks the ALL-TIME Yank hit record this year at 35.
and he may steal more bases this year than ever.
“However, Joba HAD to get worse because there’s no way any pitcher, much less a 23-year old is going to continue to put up sub-1.00 ERA’s. He only looks bad now because he was SO good before.”
It’s remarkable that some people don’t see this.
One of the most interesting things about this whole bull pen debate is how people keep looking back to Joba the reliever of 2007 rather than Joba the reliever 2008.
Joba out of the pen in 2008 was already nowhere near as dominant as Joba out of the pen 2007. Not even close – compare his ERA.
But people just conveniently forget that.
Baseball at the major league levels is completely dependent on making adjustments and finding the opposition’s weakness.
Joba’s utter dominance in 2007 was an illusion. It was never ever going to last. And that illusion was built on the fact that major league hitters had no idea initially how to pick up his slider and distinguish it from his fastball. So Joba could just keep throwing it out of the zone or even in the dirt and get outs.
But that was never, ever going to last. And in the beginning of last year that same trick wasn’t working for Joba when he came out of the pen. MLB hitters adjusted and even now they will often lay off his slider assuming that it will tumble out of the zone.
This is one of the fundamental reason why Joba throws so many pitches now and walks so many guys. He’s still trying to throw his slider out of the zone to strike guys out. But it’s simply not going to work like it did in the past.
What Joba is still in the process of doing is learning how to adjust back to the fact that hitters can now pick up his slider much better. And that’s required him to do what all young pitchers have to – to learn how to set hitters up, find their weaknesses and vary his approach.
Happy Birthday DJ! It makes me sad to think of him as 35 only because as much of a GIDP machine he has become, I cannot imagine the Yankees without Jeter. And Mo. So I will pull a Scarlett O’Hara and think about it another time!
A little side story since I think I was really too shocked last night to even say much about Michael Jackson. My best friend and I always would ask each other what the other wanted for Christmas rather than guess. One year the only thing I wanted (and got) was Thriller. He was truly amazing. As freaky as he had become, I feel so sad that he’s gone.
Finally, since I have to leave to go to a CLE (those of you who know what it is surely sympathize and those who don’t, it’s nothing exciting) I am going to say something and run. That way I won’t have to worry about getting bloodied.
I think the probability of us winning this weekend is positively correlated to whether or not Cervelli gets to catch any of the games. Of course we can always hope to catch lightning in a bottle and score 12 runs per game!
Always willing (and hoping actually since all I want is to see the Yankees win) to fall on my sword if Posada catches and our games are dandies.
Now I leave!
SJ44
Wouldn’t you expect this has been discussed by Jeter and Cash to some degree already?
Kinda of getting a feel where they stand on the subject.
I would think he would be dealt with differently than most given his stature on this franchise.
Joba was hitting 100 in the minors, starting.
He was hitting 100 when he came up to the majors in the pen.
he was hitting 100 when he started starting last season..
he’s started games with an 89mph fastball this season.
????????
SJ44 or GB7,
Have either of you been to a Charleston game this year? How is Melky Mesa down there? Looks fairly promising at that level from the DotF reports at River Ave Blues…
Jamie Moyer? No.. Maybe Mussina rubbed off on him.
Wave,
That makes sense. Mick Kelleher came to the big leagues with a rep of being a very good middle infield coach. A guy who does a good job balancing spray chart data and other data, combine it with a players natural skills, and make him a better defensive player.
Robbie Cano swears by him. Wouldn’t shock me if Mick has had a big influence on Jeter because Mick isn’t the kind of personality that would be intimidated to suggest changes to Derek.
Ben (Michigan)
Where do you rate Miguel Cabrera in relation to the other first-base all star candidates in the AL? I would think he has to be a ways ahead of Teixiara, and neck and neck with Youk, and Mourneau, but slightly in front of them (the numbers support that, with higher power numbers and batting average anyway).
Jerry Crasnick
Ben, I’m not sure how much room they have for first basemen on the roster, but they could bring five or six and they’d all be deserving. Cabrera is right at the top of the list.
oooooooooooooooooooooooo
Thoughts?
Actually, E-Gawa, you mentioned the so-called regression and suggested that people who think Joba should be a starter were “holding on a little to [sic] tightly now.”
Were you not implying some sort of causal relationship between Joba starting and his so-called regression?
Tex is the man. That glove of his is amazing.
“Joba was hitting 100 in the minors, starting.
He was hitting 100 when he came up to the majors in the pen.
he was hitting 100 when he started starting last season..”
LOL the guns in AAA and AA and A ball aren’t all that accurate, just the other day Neftali Feliz was clocked at 102 mph, he doesn’t throw that hard. Hey I logged most of the per pitches at NYYFANS and PSD and he didn’t sit 100 like you think, he may have touched 100 mph mostly 99 and 98 mph to finish off games.
Right now he’s coming off a shoulder inj. prbly working his muscle memory and having some set backs on mechanics, look at Hughes 1 offseason and he added 2-4 mph that he lost last yr.
“Joba out of the pen in 2008 was already nowhere near as dominant as Joba out of the pen 2007. Not even close – compare his ERA.”
If you look at the game logs, you’ll see another story. Before they started stretching him out.. He came into 20 games in relief and gave up runs in 4 of those games.
Yes, unfortunetly he is human.
Another thing is when he was in the BP he aired it out, like Bobby Jenks that leads to inj.
Trisha,
Every poor performance by a Yankee pitcher is not related to Posada or any catcher. Believe it or not, pitchers do just pitch poorly.
Watch the tape of Cervelli handling Joba against the Nationals for proof.
Maine,
There wouldn’t be any talks now between Casey Close, Jeter’s agent, and the Yankees over his future right now. Its too early.
Perhaps they broach the subject in the off-season, even if its just a parameters session?
Now? Not usually the way its done with a player of Jeter’s age 1 1/2 years out prior to his contract being up.
Joba’s fastball average for the year is 92, not 89. He has had games when its been consistently 95.
His velocity problems are pretty simple to identify. He had an injured shoulder last year AND his mechanics have been out of whack quite often.
An off-season of better leg conditioning will help his mechanics. As long as he stays healthy, combined with better mechanics, he will regain more velocity.
Happened to Hughes this year and it will happen to Joba next year if he does what he needs to do.
E-gawa, just because Joba isn’t hitting 97 in the 1st doesn’t mean he’s regressing. I remember him hitting 96 with some high heat in the 7th against ATL. I think your original Joba post was an answer to aardsma’s post. He’s a RS fan and he’s calling people crazy for wanting to put him in the BP. What does that tell you?
“http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=2692&position=P”
Other than his fastball there’s no meaningful difference in those velocities.
And those numbers are misleading because they are unadjusted for his time spent in the bull pen.
All pitcher’s throw harder out of the pen.
So you would have to look at only the data for Joba as a starter last year and compare it with his data as a starter this year.
If you did that the only major difference in velocity – and it’s a significant one – is his fastball velocity.
So if you look at his average slider velocity last year of 85 mph that’s a mixture of the slider’s he threw as a reliever and starter. If you only looked at his sliders as a starter it would be less than 85 mph and nearly the same as his current average slider velocity of 84 mph.
The only difference in his stuff is his fastball velocity. One of the reasons why I feel better about the health of his arm is that we haven’t seen a global drop in velocity across all of this pitches, especially his slider.
If he were hurt and that was the reason he lost velocity on his fastball we’d likely see a similar if not greater drop in his slider velocity as that is a much more taxing pitch to throw on the arm than a fastball.
But we’re not seeing that.
Like AJ Burnett it leads to inj., Matt Lidstrom, etc. if anything w/ him in the rotation not only do the Yankees add a much needed SP but also teach him how to pitch instead of just throw. He’ll be better for it.
Even regurgitating some lame theory about Posada will not lead to anyone getting bloodied. This is a baseball blog, not a butcher shop.
Sure Nick, where-ever you want to take it.
Clayton Kershaw (LAD) may have done better this season than Joba while being two years younger. Since you ask.
From what I’ve witnessed, hitting 100 mph on a radar gun is not something anybody can do day in and day out. Farnsworth and Bruney have done it on occassion and obviously so has Joba.
I noticed on Wednseday, Joba was around 92 and miraculously was thowing 95 and 96 (on Gameday also check for yourslef) after going back out in the 6th inning. It seems Joba needs a big rush of adrenaline to be throwing that hard.
He is more than effective throwing 92 though. I have no concerns about his arm.
Yeah but i guess the radar gun at the minor league level was accurate when Mariano started to dial it up to the mid-nineties when he was in minors.
Anyways,
SJ, Do you see Andy Petitte’s carreer coming to an end much sooner than the end of this season? i.e, will he be replaced by hughes? He pitches more on guts than stuff
DB that pitch that hit by Prado or whoever it was before him was 96 MPH. I still don’t see the arguement E is making.
Hughes adding mph is normal.. that’s what young pitchers usually do.
some observations.
joba was throwing some pitches the othernight 95.. very few fastballs at 91.. the guy is a stud, he is 23, look at his peripheral #’s. the walks are the only thing holding him back.
I grew up with munson… moved to calif in 73 from NY. yankee fan my whole life. actually when I was young did not know the yanks were good, when I was 7 thru 12 they stunk more or less.i have the murcer game after thurman died on vhs tape………..my brother who is older loved bobby murcer…i remember fritz peterson and the mike kekich days….
jeter at 2 yrs. makes sense, 4 is more problematic….
i have no doubt if healthy hughes and joba are top end guys.. sportsfans look at the yanks so many home grown players not in there prime, there system is being replenished before our eyes….the matsui type/dh guy is becoming a thing of the past for the yanks..
for my wedding gift my wife in 1990 sent a card to the yanks and asked them to sign it and told them the story of my fandom even though I live in LA, many players signed it including donnie baseball.. it was the best gift my wife could get me…
jeter is a old time player, it is and should be all about the team…it is not about the stats or the moolah it should be about the team…
E-Gawa, it’s not where I want to take it; I don’t have a complaint about Joba. It’s what your post suggested. You’re the one who brought up regression and holding on too tightly.
Mike,
I have not been to a River Dogs game this year. I’ve heard good reports from scouts on Melky Mesa.
He’s an interesting guy. People who aren’t baseball people won’t get excited about him because he’s a “bad body” kid.
A little chunky and folks not well versed in scouting tend to downgrade guys like that because they don’t “look” like an athlete.
However, he has good hands, good hand eye coordination and, I think at least, a good approach to hitting.
I’m interested to see if his bat can hold up when he gets to better pitching leagues like the FSL (Tampa) and the Eastern League (Trenton).
If it does, the Yankees may have a very interesting player to watch in a couple of years.
Stingy Citi Shea
Bronx Bombers come a callin
Show Mets HR Trot
“I have a pet theory that Jeter’s range increased due to a change in positioning introduced by a new coaching staff after Torre left and Girardi came in.”
I agree. This makes a lot of sense. In fact if I’m remembering correctly when all of that data on Jeter’s defensive woes came out in 2007ish one of the issues that came up was his positioning.
And there has been a real, unsettled debate on how positioning should be accounted for in defensive stats. Some argue it’s part of innate defensive skill. Others it’s influenced by coaching.
I think that’s a very good theory. It’s clear something systematic (or several things systematic) happened.
Another thing could just be the way they’ve been redefining what “zones” are. It could be that Jeter’s positioning with respect to the way zones were first drawn up was particularly bad.
For UZR, etc. how they’ve accounted for what a zone is has been in evolution. There could be a zone definition-positioning interaction.
SJ44
I wasn’t refering to any formal talks just some sort of casual conversation.
You know better than I how those things work.
Is it just all bussiness no matter who it is?
RConn, I’m probably a few years older than you but, growing up Don Mattingly was absolutely revered by me. Loved everything about him. Nice article you wrote there about him.
Jeter is two years younger than me putting him at the same age as a lot of my friends. To think that he is old now is pretty darn surreal. If I didn’t know any better I’d say it’s time for my mid life crisis..
Jeter is one of my favorite players in Baseball. Definitely in my top two, between him and Andy Pettitte.
It’ll be a sad day when he is no longer on the field.
Nick, I know what you’re doing and I’m not playing that game. I already answered you the way I’m going to answer you.
Range should be calculated on the speed, trajectory, and angle of the ball batted to the distance the player is off the bat. Until there is a system that can accurately calculate that, defensive metrics will be flawed.
Maine,
Its pretty much all business, regardless of the player.
One thing they won’t do with Jeter is embarrass him.
When the time comes to talk new deal, if there is any inclination to have him change positions, I’m guessing the person(s) who bring it up will keep that info VERY close to the vest.
I don’t see any leaks on that stuff.
I don’t think Kerhsaw has outpitched Joba this year.
IIRC, his numbers, despite pitching in a much weaker league and division, aren’t as good as Joba’s unless he has had a good couple of weeks.
Anyone want to guess the starting lineup tonight? I hope Melky gets the start in RF because the gaps at CitiField are HUGE and RF has some quirky angles.
My lineup would be:
Jeter SS
Damon LF
Teixeira 1B
Rodriguez 3B
Posada C
Cano 2B
Cabrera RF
Gardner CF
Sabathia P
“Joba was hitting 100 in the minors, starting.”
I dont get this at all.
Your whole orginal point was that Joba is regressing because he was put into the starting rotation.
That’s what you were saying.
But now it seems like you’re trying to shift this to an issue of him just “regressing” as a whole.
If you agree that him “regressing” has nothing to do with his change in role than that’s an entirely different issue.
The fact is – as you point out – Joba’s stuff as a starter – whether in the majors or minors up to this year – was nearly identical to his stuff out of the pen in 2007-2008.
So clearly his shift to the rotation from the pen cannot account for the decreased fastball velocity we’re seeing this year.
Which means that his “regression” is not role dependent.
It could in theory be health dependent – but if he’s having trouble with his shoulder than he most likely should not be moved back to the pen.
Joba never pitched out of the pen in his life before 2007-2008.
It’s very, very possible that his shoulder problems at the end of the year were due to him overthrowing while he was in the pen.
He was throwing 90-92 mph sliders. No pitcher does that. There’s no way that was good for his arm.
Fair enough, E-Gawa. I still don’t know precisely what you were driving at, but I’ve survived that condition before.
It would be stunning beyond words if Jeter is not on the team in 2011. He can’t get to 3,000 before then and it would be a travishamockery for him to reach that number in any other uniform.
What do you pay him for 2011 and/or 2012?
kershaw and billingsley obviously have a chance to be big time pitchers.
the nl west stinks, i live in LA. baltimore is better then SD, AZ, and comprable to SF….
kershaw also is 19 or 20 at the oldest.
rconn that was a neaat article…
If DJ plays as well next year as he has this year, the Yankee will give him another 4 years if that’s what he wants.
They is surely no way to tell if he will still be able to play SS; not every day at least.
They gave Mo, Georgie, and Alex contracts to play to 40+; they had better give Jeter one.
I say we worry more about 2011 when we’re a little closer.
Enjoy watching the best SS, yes the best, in the majors wearing the pinstripes this year…
“Range should be calculated on the speed, trajectory, and angle of the ball batted to the distance the player is off the bat. Until there is a system that can accurately calculate that, defensive metrics will be flawed.”
Agreed. The idea that batted balls from players in the AL East aren’t systematically hit at a greater velocity than compared to hitters in the NL West is implausible.
A similar argument holds for the now much revered BABIP. The first release of Hit F/x data just pointed out how absurd it is to normalize expected BABIP for a hitter to .300 or to use some simplistic model like LD%+.12 which assumes all line drives are of the same quality.
And in turn it makes the notion that all pitchers BABIP should be regressed or implicitly assumed to be the result of random chance implausible. Stats like FIP are going to look odd in the future.
“Jeter SS
Damon LF
Teixiera 1B
Rodriguez 3B
Posada C
Cano 2B
Cabrera RF
Gardner CF
Sabathia P”
Yep that would be my lineup too based on that spacious outfield.
if jeter is reasonable which he is he will work something out with the yanks. he genuinely loves being a yank and should be a lifer………….
“Other than his fastball there’s no meaningful difference in those velocities.
And those numbers are misleading because they are unadjusted for his time spent in the bull pen.
All pitcher’s throw harder out of the pen.
So you would have to look at only the data for Joba as a starter last year and compare it with his data as a starter this year.
If you did that the only major difference in velocity – and it’s a significant one – is his fastball velocity.
So if you look at his average slider velocity last year of 85 mph that’s a mixture of the slider’s he threw as a reliever and starter. If you only looked at his sliders as a starter it would be less than 85 mph and nearly the same as his current average slider velocity of 84 mph.
The only difference in his stuff is his fastball velocity. One of the reasons why I feel better about the health of his arm is that we haven’t seen a global drop in velocity across all of this pitches, especially his slider.
If he were hurt and that was the reason he lost velocity on his fastball we’d likely see a similar if not greater drop in his slider velocity as that is a much more taxing pitch to throw on the arm than a fastball.
But we’re not seeing that.”
CB,
You can compare the data on only his starts with the ones this year. You have to go to game charts and track them idividually. It’s the same result.
Kershaw, Age 21, ERA 3.76
IP H R ER HR BB SO WP
76.2 57 32 32 5 46 75 3
the mo, jorge, alex over 40 contracts are in a word stupid.
it would also be stupid to sign jeter to a contract liek that.
give him 2 years when his deal is over or go yr. to yr. they have paid him a fortune to be a yankee over the years and it has been a good deal for both parties, they owe him nothing.
the guy makes about $18 mill or more per year, he is not exactly getting underpaid……………………..
Rishi June 26th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
How about this trade?? (are some people really this crazy):
Ron (Riverside)
Heath Bell for Phil Hughes?
Jerry Crasnick
Ron, The Yankees would love another back end of the bullpen option, but no way I see them trading Phil Hughes. Do you know that he turned 23 two days ago?
*******
What is Ron smoking? Phil Hughes for Health Bell? I wouldn’t trade Angel Berroa for Health Bell. Oh wait that move I would make.
Checking on fax’s facts on Kershaw in the above so we could compare with Joba, but have no skill at making the spaces turn out right, so maybe I should have left it to him/her?
No prob, JP,you got it up and saved me to trouble.
It’s him.
I cannot believe Jeter is 35!!! Seriously, where did the time go. (side note, I can not believe i’m 24 today, thats just scary). I hope he has a great game later ( can we get a replay on being on base 6x? ). No one is allowed to complain about Jeter tonight on his birthday….that should be a blog rule
.
Joba’s regression
Is it myth or is it fact?
We cling to his starts
“You can compare the data on only his starts with the ones this year. You have to go to game charts and track them idividually. It’s the same result.”
You can only do this by aggregating his game start data by velocity. You can’t just eye-ball it on a game by game basis.
And to know whether or not there’s a real difference in velocity rather than random variation you’d have to do some kind of test for statistical significance.
Your point on his fastball velocity holds. There a large difference in that. But there hasn’t been anywhere close to that kind of difference in his other stuff. There just hasn’t been.
And until I see proof that his slider velocity aggregated by start is markedly different this year and last I’m not going to make much of a difference in his slider velocity of 1.1 mph given that he threw 25% of his innings out of the pen.
Even last year there was a drop off in his slider velocity when he entered the rotation.
And this begs the question of whether he was overthrowing last year to begin with.
This is almost exclusively an issue of a difference in his fastball. His slider looks fine – the only issue is that he still tries to throw it out of the zone too much and doesn’t command it well enough.
His curveball and change up look better this year than they did last.
The only difference is his fastball. And I’m not sure why that is.
I do know that there’s little evidence to believe it was due to his change in role from the pen to the rotation.
As you yourself pointed out he was sitting high 90’s as a starter in the minors. Nearly the same as what he was doing out of the pen in 2007.
Either it’s injury, fluctuating mechanics or an intentional choice on his part. It’s not the role that’s causing the bulk of the difference.
Watching him pitch this year – if this is his health – it would be an awful idea to move him to the pen. Putting him in a position to have to warm up quickly would be terrible for his arm.
He wouldn’t even have the luxury of being a closer where this workload could be calibrated as he wouldn’t have to get loose as often.
If his drop in fastball velocity is due to health in any way moving him to the pen could blow out his shoulder.
Move Joba back to the’oen because having him approach triple digits on back-to-back days would be REALLY good for his arm strength, instead of, say, teaching him how to conserve his energy through six innings.
I like that lineup as well, but I imagine that will be decided on based on Melky’s flu symptoms today…anyone heard if he’s been feeling better?
Nick,
I think you’re taking this haiku thing a little too seriously:)
Come back to us.
On the second point about Andy Phillips. It is crazy to go back and think they kept him on the team and kept Carlos Pena to rot away in the minors.
———————————————————-
Although Pena has become a star in the American League, it does make sense that the Yankees held onto Phillips instead of him at the time…Phillips could play first base, second base, third base and the outfield. Pena could only play first base at the time. The Yankees felt that they had enough hitting to win but were challenged for decent backups at the positions Andy Phillips could play.
here is something for everyone. Tell me who on opening day would have said that the person with the 3rd most wins on this team would have been Alfredo ACeves?
Aceves is the key to the Yankees season. He’s the difference between mediocrity and the post season IMO.
Nick in SH in Pittsburgh-
Not to be anal, but Pittsburgh has a silent H at the end.
Not sure why I feel the need to point that out, for some reason it was bothering me
just the comparison:
IP H R ER HR BB SO
Chamberlain, age 23, ERA 3.81
75.2 70 36 32 8 37 69
Kershaw, Age 21, ERA 3.76
76.2 57 32 32 5 46 75
CB,
I think it’s a lost cause if you don’t see the drop in any of the other pitches. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
As far as him blowing out his arm if he went to the pen assuming he’s hurt.. All it takes is one pitch on a hot night in july/august, late in his game, to do the same exact thing.
After the way they handled Chein-ming Wang, I just don’t understand how this is such a non-story.
Erica – newly OPPC
June 26th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Nick in SH in Pittsburgh-
Not to be anal, but Pittsburgh has a silent H at the end.
Not sure why I feel the need to point that out, for some reason it was bothering me
***
I also find it ironic that as I correct your spelling, I typoed SF.
Sorry!
Aceves may not be the key to the season, but he’s certainly a big plus. And his comportment on the mound is amazing for a guy who just got here. Obviously not overwhelmed by his new surroundings or by facing big league hitters.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....-sign.html
Tim Dierkes of MLB Trade Rumors shows that our own SJ44 nephew Tony Sanchez has the highest signing bonus so far, haha! I know baseball is not about the money, but I thought it was a cool little fact. Im sure it will get shattered by Strasburg though.
Anyways happy B-Day Cap’n Jetes!
“just the comparison:”
That’s the unadjusted comparison.
Kershaw gets to throw to the opposition pitcher rather than a DH.
Kershaw pitches in a pitcher friendly park.
Kershaw pitches in the single worst division in all of the game, a division in which the hitting is particularly bad. With the unbalanced schedule that makes an enormous difference.
Kershaw plays in front of a better defense, particularly last year so that will decrease his ERA.
Kershaw is a terrific prospect. Right now he has the same problem that David Price does. He’s a two pitch pitcher.
Joba’s a legit 4 pitch pitcher.
hi r conn two three
This is what I’m meant to be
A haiku Truther
Working out of the pen, Joba was throwing in the high nineties. Everyone was pumped when he came in, even Joba. Fans got spoiled watching him blowing away batters. That’s why some fans want to keep him in the pen, he was so overpowering.
If he was only used as a starter there would be no debate. You have to give him time as a starter.
“After the way they handled Chein-ming Wang, I just don’t understand how this is such a non-story.”
E-gawa,
If you are referring to his health rather than his role, then that’s an area where we agree.
I am concerned. The issue with his fastball is one of three things as a I wrote before – injury, mechanics or an active decision on his part to throw softer – or a combination of those factors.
I don’t know which it is, so injury is a possiblity and that’s very concerning.
And the yankees handling of injury gives them very little credibility in that department.
On those issues we agree.
I’m honestly not concerned about his slider velocity. If it was also down say 4-5 mph like his fastball then I would be enormously worried about his health. But if he was hurt I’d expect his slider to be much worse than his fastball. That’s the pitch that should take the biggest hit because it’s so much stress on the arm.
If the issue is mechanics or an active intention not to throw as hard then it’s not a big deal at all. That’s just part of a young pitcher developing.
Don’t fret, Erica
My spelling is correct in
Pittsburg, CA
Boston Dave,
You said:
“jeter is on pace for an MVP caliber season
.308, 21HR, 109 runs, 70 RBI, 40SB – 2CS
good defense
From the leadoff spot? Dat’s Good!”
I agree. It’s good. But it’s hardly MVP caliber. Jeter’s .828 OPS is well below his .900 OPS in 2006 when he finished second in the MVP voting, his .989 OPS in 1999 when he finished third, his .896 OPS when he finished 10th and so on.
Factoring in defense (something about which reasonable men and women may differ) FanGraphs doesn’t even rate Jeter the top shortstop in the American League, but rather rates him over 10% behind Marco Scutaro.
On the other hand, it is good to see Jeter on pace to earn his salary (according to FanGraphs). Incidentally, if he succeeds in doing so in 2009, it will only be the second time he’s done so as far back as FanGraphs goes (which is back to 2002) and the first time he’s managed to do it since 2006.
Great timing. Maybe now the Yankees will give him a 10-year $300 million contract, too….
“Joba’s a legit 4 pitch pitcher.”
not sure his fastball counts as a plus pitch anymore.
he has to pitch backwards right now to get the results he’s getting which is impressive at his age, but i have to wonder about the drop in velocity.
It’s all but impossible to compare AL and NL pitchers because of the DH and talent discrepanies. There just isn’t enough empirical date on Joba’s starts so far and unless you always use the same radar gun with the same operator you cannot treat those numbers as accurate.
Radar reading are a lot like defensive matrix type stats.. interesting but essentially meaningless numbers.
Comparing Kershaw and Chamberlain…
CB just made several good points but lets make it simple.
ERA+ :
Chamberlain 116
Kershaw 113
FIP :
Chamberlain 4.43
Kershaw 3.79
I’d say they are having fairly even seasons. Chamberlain is getting a bit better results (thanks to defense) but Kershaw might be pitching a bit better.
that swing Derek Jeter takes in the Ford commercial — it results in a 6-4-3 double play.
The only thing that is really interesting about Pittsburg or Pittsburgh is that the school Pittsburg State (Kansas)has the greatest of all mascots…
THE GORILLAS!
Hope that wasn’t too much all caps.
Nick in SF in PttsburG-
There is a PittsburG in California?!?!?!?! Wow
I am getting smarter by the second following this blog
“Nick,
I think you’re taking this haiku thing a little too seriously:)
Come back to us.”
rconn23-
i think nick’s new haiku career is great.
it keeps him busy and he’s less apt to pester me .
though a nice little haiku about livan the great is likely coming when he pitches his game against the yankees.
“FIP :
Chamberlain 4.43
Kershaw 3.79″
FIP is going to be a particularly limited stat for yankee pitchers this year because it’s going to be highly skewed for all of the HR that are hit there and there isn’t going to be an accurate way to adjust for park factors given the newness of the stadium. In addition, if the park is causing the pitchers to nibble more than their walk rates will also be skewed.
So the assertion that FIP measures innate pitching ability is even more tenuous than it already is.
Mike
June 26th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
SJ44 or GB7,
Have either of you been to a Charleston game this year? How is Melky Mesa down there? Looks fairly promising at that level from the DotF reports at River Ave Blues…
————————————————————
I’ve seen Mesa more than a few times, and he’s like a lot of young kids. He looks like a HOFer one day and the next day, he looks like he needs to be released. He’s kind of short (about 5′10″ and 210 pounds or so). Sort of Kirby Puckettish. He does have big time power and very good speed, along with playing good defense at all three outfield spots. His issues are that of strike zone recognition. He chases a lot of pitches out of the strike zone, especially down and away. Think Alfonso Soriano.
For a young player to have 16 homers in the Sally League and doing in it at Joe Riley Park is rather outstanding. Hitting homers out to left field there takes some kind of power. The distance is long, the fence is high and the wind blows in off of the river.
It’s tough to tell if he can overcome the strikeouts, but, he has talent and 30 homers and 25 steals within the next two years wouldn’t surprise me. That would be at AA, not the majors.
By the way Jeter has grounded into all of eight DPs this year… if he’s a GIDP machine he’s not a very good one.
SJ44 & GB7 & Mike
re: Melky Mesa
PinstripesPlus.com has his profile listed as 6′1″ and 165.
Hardly chunky unless that’s totally mis info.
Hello randy l
I haven’t forgotten you
Gritty commenter
“not sure his fastball counts as a plus pitch anymore.”
It’s a fair point. I do think that even now his fastball is still above average. It’s not what it was but it’s still better than average so I guess it depends now a little on what counts as plus.
That said his slider, curve and change are all legitimate plus pitches, IMO. His change up alone would make a very good 3rd pitch for most pitchers. His curve is a legitimate plus 2nd pitch.
But he is pitching somewhat backwards and that is really unfortunate.
I don’t know what’s going on with him.
Question for you randy – if it was injury causing his drop in fastball velocity, wouldn’t you think his slider would also take the same kind of hit if not more. His slider has such a violent arm action (though less than before…) and is such a high stress pitch I’d have to think that not only would he lose velocity on it if his arm wasn’t sound – he’d just stop throwing it as much and go to his curve and change much more often.
GB 7 — It really is remarkable that Mesa has 16 HR and the next highest total on the team is 3.
Is he likely to finish the year there or is a move up to Tampa in the offing?
and havent half of those DP’s been these past 2 weeks? when he was clearly hurting…
“I agree. It’s good. But it’s hardly MVP caliber. Jeter’s .828 OPS ”
Tell that to Dustin Pedroia. His .869 OPS in Fenway isn’t exactly all world either. And he didn’t win MVP for his defense.
I don’t think Mesa is 6-1, 165.
More like 5-10, 190 to me, unless he has had a growth spurt and a diet since the last time I saw him last year.
For tonight’s game I would not be surprised if CC was lit up. Generally you need to rest a bbit when you have elbow tendinitis.
It seems pretty clear
Only when he’s hurt is he
A DP machine
“PinstripesPlus.com has his profile listed as 6?1? and 165.
Hardly chunky unless that’s totally mis info.”
I wouldn’t buy that. A lot of that height and weight information is completely out of date and innaccurate.
That’s probably the height and weight they had him at when he first signed. The height was probably exagerated and the weight irrelevant.
He’s 22 now. So when he signed was a long time ago.
I don’t think we’re going to have a sense of what Mesa is until he hits Tampa. 22 for a sally ball is up there.
Jeter doesn’t deserve MVP. But he’s having a terrific season.
Joba’s fastball is 92-94, and that still makes it a plus pitch.
He still draws a lot of swings and misses off the fastball when he locates it.
As with all young pitchers, its all about fastball command. When he has it, even at less velocity, he is dominating. When he doesn’t, its an ugly outing.
Overall though, he’s pitched better than Pettitte and Wang so far in his first full year as a starter.
I don’t think anybody saw that coming at the start of the year.
Joba pitched very well yesterday.
I’ve got to agree with SJ on the improved Yankee infield defense being due to the contributions of Mick Kelleher. It’s obvious that somebody has taken a hand in positioning Cano and Jeter to close the up the middle gap. Of course having a ball magnet at first helps a lot.
Not sure how much work Kelleher has done with Rodriguez, but, somebody has worked with him. He appears much more comfortable and stable on infield popups, which always seemed to be an issue. He looks as good as Jeter on the popups, now. Kelleher may some day be a good manager, though I’d think his age is against him, there. He’s just a smart baseball guy.
CC doesn’t have anything wrong with his elbow.
He had some forearm soreness that may or may not be tendonitis.
It may also be cramping from the heat in Florida. After all, Dr. Kanell said it “might be” tendonitis.
is there a link to papelbon’s statement and/or retraction?
Okay, forearm. If it “might” be tendinitis, I still would not be surprised if he got lit up.
I guess it’s also worth mentioning that I wouldn’t be surprised if he pitched a gem.
There is one aspect of Jeter’s game that does concern me, especially when projecting how good he will be in a few years.
Although it is too soon to say for sure, Jeter’s increase in power from last year may be an illusion created by the new home run-friendly Yankee Stadium.
While his BA and OBP are good and seem unaffected by the new Stadium, on the road Jeter is slugging .519, while at home it’s .392. The road number is alarmingly close to what Jeter slugged last year, which was a year that raised concerns that Jeter was losing his extra-base ability.
Almost all of Derek’s home runs have come at the new Stadium (7 -2), even though he has had more plate appearances on the road (170 on the road vs. 149 at home).
Again, too soon to be sure, but it is something to keep an eye on.
i’m taking a wild guess but you may be able to find it at imanidiotscumbag.com
Nick,
I think you and Dynasty is Destiny should have a one time only “haiku-off” in a steel cage. Two men enter, one man leaves.
It has to happen for the sake of this blog.
Oh, and you’ve got to love Trisha dropping in on a completely unrelated thread to take yet another shot at Jorge Posada.
found-
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....n-on-.html
his retraction is on boston.com
The improved infield defense is being spearheaded by the brilliant defensive play of Tex. Him having so much range allows the other infielders to position themsleves differently.
You could say any pitcher could get “lit up” or be “dominating”. That’s not exactly breaking news.
He could also get “lit up” because he pitches badly.
Not because of the catcher, any injury, the weather, or anything else.
86w183
June 26th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
GB 7 — It really is remarkable that Mesa has 16 HR and the next highest total on the team is 3.
Is he likely to finish the year there or is a move up to Tampa in the offing?
————————————————————
Kind of hard to say, because there’s not much room in Tampa for him. Those strikeouts will hold him back. Not sure if anybody will be able to get through to him. I’m no insider or any expert, but, leaving him in Charleston to finish the year won’t hurt him.
Wave Your Hat-His power is almost certainly stadium induced. Which is fine by me. Luckily he DOEs play there half the time.
GB7-
Jeter’s defensive revival began last year, before we got Tex. But if Kelleher came in with Girardi, then he definitely could have something to do with it.
Jeter does seem to be playing farther back the last couple of years.
Cano definitely does. We used to sit in the stands and compare where Cano played (right at the edge of the grass) vs where other second basemen played (several steps back into the grass). Cano is now setting up well in the grass as well. That has to help his range.
“While his BA and OBP are good and seem unaffected by the new Stadium, on the road Jeter is slugging .519, while at home it’s .392.”
You reverse these numbers??
SJ44-Um, yeah. Of course. What I’m saying is I think today is about a 50-50 of him being dominant or getting lit up because of the injury, when normally you can expect him to be really realy good more often than not.
Steve B-
I definitely reversed them. Good catch. At home his SLG is .519, on the road it is .392.
Sorry for the confusion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=channel
Jeter on Girardi…
I guess what I’m saying is, he isn’t injured. He was sore. There is a difference.
Lots of guy have tendonitis in different forms. Jeter has it and manages it accordingly. Its the price you pay for playing 180 games in 162 games and throw as much as these guys throw on a daily basis.
I think if he was injured, he wouldn’t be pitching.
“Although it is too soon to say for sure, Jeter’s increase in power from last year may be an illusion created by the new home run-friendly Yankee Stadium.”
True. But I do think he’s driving the ball better than he was last year.
He’s got 14 doubles so far – 7 at home and 7 on the road.
I’d guess some of the HR’s that he’s hitting in the new stadium would turn into doubles at a more neutral park.
Overall offensively I was most concerned about his drop in OBP last year. If his OBP declined from .363 then it would be more and more tenusous to keep him at SS.
SJ44-He SAYS he’s only sore. I would not be shocked if he were hiding an injury.
Rconn23: Dynasty’s hiaku are poetic, although he continues to confound with superflous ellipses, as is his style.
I’ve been a fan of the haiku form for years. The rigidity in form promotes economy in thought.
If there was only room for one haiku master, I would defer to Dynasty.
As for Trisha’s pop-in post, it was good for a chuckle.
If he was injured, he wouldn’t be pitching. It doesn’t matter what he says. As Cashman said, its not up to him whether or not he was going to pitch. Its up to the doctors and the team. He got cleared so, he’s pitching.
They aren’t going to put an injured guy on the mound for a June game. He passed all the strength tests they gave him and threw without pain. That’s all you can ask for.
If you want to believe he’s injured or is going to get lit up, nothing anyone can say with change your mind.
Jeter will never embarass himself. When his contract is up, he will only continue on if he “knows” that he can play up to his standards and for how long. He will govern what actually happens contractually. I should add that tho I like Derek, I am not a “Jeterite”; nor am I a diehard fan of any current Yankee. It’s the “NY” on the cap and the jersey that keeps me going.
I grew up with The Mick and still rever him. No one has ever come close to taking his place. A distant second was Donnie Baseball.
I’m actually starting to think that Joba just didn’t condition himself properly this past off season.
He had personal issues. He also had a lot more money and fame to distract him. He’s still a young guy.
I truly believe if his shoulder were injured the Yankees wouldn’t be letting him pitch.
If he were a Papelbon shoulder type case, the Yankees would most certainly put him in the pen since there’s a precedent of success (w/Papelbon) in protecting an easily damaged arm out there.
As SJ pointed out, perhaps he needed to do more focus on his leg work in the off season in order to get his velocity up a few more ticks.
He certainly isn’t a physical specimen. Maybe taking his conditioning seriously like Bruney has could help him return to his old form.
His slider is showing signs of what it was in the past. His curve is looking good too.
I think if came into camp in tip top shape his fastball would probably be blazing.
I also think the pitch limit thing is hurting his development. He needs to be stretched out to 100 pitches in every start minimum. He needs the muscle memory/muscle repair of going that long in his starts to condition his arm further.
SJ, if you want to make what I said controversial, more power to you.
But he was not given an MRI. He threw and SAID he had no pain.
I don’t think the Yankees did anything wrong. But I doubt anybody would we be shocked if he left w/a sudden forearm injury.
Take out the word we.
G. Love-
He may not have done proper conditioning over the offseason, but the only flaw in your argument is that Joba is actually in the best physical shape of his career. He has lost weight since his debut and is almost unrecognizable from his college physique
But- you are right about one thing. There is a difference between being “thin” and “in shape”
If he pitches well who cares what his fastball velocity is?
Jeter’s homeruns:
http://www.hittrackeronline.co.....ype=hitter
I would say only 3 are cheapies.
Bridge Jumper-3 HR’s is a lot conidering he doesn’t hit many.
Anybody remember when Fernando Valenzuela started 1981 with four shutouts in five games? No one could keep that up, but he turned out to be a pretty good pitcher. I find the expectations of Yankee fans hilarious. Wasn’t Chamberlain always projected as a starter, and used in the pen in 2007 as a stopgap measure? At 23, he’s better than 75 percent of all starters in MLB, and you’re complaining.
aase and aardsma-You are 100% right.
I remember seeing Derek Jeter play with the Albany-Colonie Yankees way back in the day.
I agree on the pitching limits with one caveat….
Sometimes, Joba hits that number way too early in his outings because he gets out of rhythm because he spends so much time shaking off his catchers.
You hear whispers that he wasn’t in good shape in camp this year but, I don’t know how true they are.
What I find interesting though is when you ask people in and around the Yankees about him, they say certain buzzwords that imply conditioning is an issue.
They say things like, “He will get stronger”, “His mechanics need work”, “He has to use his legs more”…..
When you hear that stuff from people around a team, that’s code for “he has to get in better shape”.
He’s not hurt. That much I know. If he was, there is no way he’s pitching right now.
In the two starts I saw him live this year, and the starts I’ve seen him on TV, two things stand out to me:
1. Shaking off ALL of the catchers. This isn’t a Posada v. Cervelli issue. Its a Joba Issue. His worst outings come when he gets himself out of whack and overthinks out there.
2. His mechanics are up and down. When they are tight, he is very, very tough. When he gets out of whack, velocity and command go out the window.
The first issue isn’t a conditioning issue. The second is, IMO.
Hopefully, the influence of CC and AJ will give him the nudge needed to keep improving. I think it will.
I dont think Jeter is a problem old guy, there are plenty others I put ahead of him on this team. If everyone played like DJ, we’d have won a WS every year since 2000.
If he was injured, or they even thought he had an injury, he would have had an MRI scheduled pronto.
No MRI=No injury.
Pete, you have to make me count on my fingers? 74-84 = 10 years. another 10 years which is 94 is 20 years. Another 10 years at 2004 is 30 years. Add five years and Jeter is 35!
I am not confident in this team’s injury prevention after the A-Rod debacle.
“If everyone played like DJ, we’d have won a WS every year since 2000″
Amen to that
“if it was injury causing his drop in fastball velocity, wouldn’t you think his slider would also take the same kind of hit if not more.”
cb-
i agree his sider still has a lot of velocity and sharp break. it’s curious. pitchers throw sliders in different ways. i was once talking with a long time minor league orioles pitching coach, (john o’donohue) that i used to play golf with and he said the orioles were teaching a shoulder move to protect the arm when throwing sliders. i never quite understood it. instead of the shoulder turning the way you would thing it would for a slider, they were teaching the shoulder moving in the opposite way.
i know some pitching coaches emphasize more supination than others. neil allen who had one of the best 12/6 curves in the national league in his hey day didn’t supinate at all. he just pulled straight down with different grips for different pitches.
so there are different variations on how to throw the slider. i would hope that joba is not supinating because that’s what does inner elbow strain. i agree though that his velocity on the slider is surprising considering the lost velocity on the fastball. you’d think he’d have lost velocity and spin on the slider and he clearly hasn’t.
Jeter loves being a Yankee even more than we love him. Which is why it all works so well.
What’s the issue with Joba’s start yesterday? He did pretty well.
“If he was injured, he wouldn’t be pitching. It doesn’t matter what he says. As Cashman said, its not up to him whether or not he was going to pitch. Its up to the doctors and the team.”
Sounds the way it should it be, but doesn’t sound particularly consistent with their handling of Arod.
“What’s the issue with Joba’s start yesterday? He did pretty well.”
He did great. One of his 3 best starts of the year for my money. Braves helped him some, but he threw strikes. No walks, only four 3 ball counts. Don’t care if he’s not bringing it in the mid to high 90’s if he throws strikes.
Erica,
You’re right. I definitely think there’s a difference between being thin and being in shape.
I once dated a girl who lived off of vodka, Diet Coke and Camel Lights and she was thin. She couldn’t make it up 2 flights of stairs without me carrying her since she’d be out of breath, but she was thin.
I’m not saying Joba is that bad…but maybe an off season focused on his legs and core could help his consistency and give him some of the explosiveness he used to have.
Steve B-Yeah, I thought it would have been nice if he went a bit deeper, but a very solid start.
What happened to Bruney? I had to blink a bit before I could recognize him.
The issue with Joba’s start yesterday is that he looked way too much like Andy Pettitte and didn’t get out of the 4th inning.
GLove,
I think you make a fair point. Just watching him, you can see that he could use work on his leg strength.
That will get more ticks on his velocity and also take stress off his arm.
Its going to be an important off-season for Joba. He works on his fitness and strength, he has the chance to make a big leap in results from Year 1 to Year 2 as a starter.
Nick in SF in Pittsburg-Ha ha, you’re right. Sorry, from TWO days ago.
“If he were a Papelbon shoulder type case, the Yankees would most certainly put him in the pen since there’s a precedent of success (w/Papelbon) in protecting an easily damaged arm out there.”
Not specific to G. Love’s overall point – but just a note on this comparison because it is made so often
One of the major reasons why Papelbon going to the pen allowed the sox to protect his shoulder was because he was given the closer’s role.
It was the closer’s role more than being in the pen which allowed them to conserve his shoulder.
Closers as a whole – and Papelbon in particular – pitch and get work under very narrowly defined conditions – conditions that are particularly focused on them not needing to warm up more than is absolutely necessary.
As a closertTie game – most likely not going to even get up off the bench to warm up or throw in a game. Down a run – almost no chance you are going to get in the game.
It is also easier to avoid using a closer back to back games than it is for other pitchers in the pen. Look at how the sox limit Papelbon’s use.
Joba could not assume the closer’s role for this team so they could not conserve his arm this way. Mo is coming off what was arguably the best year of his career. Coming off that shoulder surgery he’s been a bit inconsistent this season but you watch him when he’s on as he was in Atlanta and you can see he hasn’t lost his stuff.
Pitching as a set up guy is very, very different from pitching as a closer in terms of how you can limit work loads. There’s only so much you could structure Joba’s workload as a set up guy and he wasn’t going to be the closer this year or next.
The papelbon example is very misleading. They couldn’t follow that model for Joba at all.
“Steve B-Yeah, I thought it would have been nice if he went a bit deeper, but a very solid start.”
He pitched into the 7th. They’ll happily take that from him everytime out. Huge difference between asking the pen to record 7-8 outs and asking them to record 10-12.
Steve B-Of course. But 7 full innings would have been nicer.
Anyway, we both agree that he did very well.
New thread.
I thought Joba looked trim the other night, but I could be mistaken.
His problem is one of consistency, I don’t necessarily think he is less effective at 93 as opposed to 96-99mph. The issue is his control. When Joba has got it, he’s got it. When he’s struggling, he drops his mph to 90-92 and presses too much..leads to walks and hits.
“i agree though that his velocity on the slider is surprising considering the lost velocity on the fastball. you’d think he’d have lost velocity and spin on the slider and he clearly hasn’t.”
Good. That’s what I’ve been thinking as well. I’m concerned but I can’t see how he could throw his slider that hard if his loss of fastball velocity was due to injury.
That’s one of the major reasons why I haven’t been placing injury at the forefront for why his fastball velocity is down. It’s generally a much more difficult pitch to maintain velocity on and if his arm was impaired not only would he lose velocity I’d just think he’d stop throwing it and go to his slower stuff much more often. He’d have to.
It’s really an issue of his fastball. So I think mechanics, intention, conditioning, etc. are all good thoughts and more likely than injury.
It’s interesting but it’s not only his fastball velocity that’s changed – his fastball command has been bad this year. Much worse than last. We haven’t seen that from his slider – his slider command doesn’t seem any worse. For example, we’ve seen serveral occassions where he starts grossly pulling off his fastball follow through laterally and “yanking” the pitch. I haven’t seen that with his slider.
It’s his fastball that’s different – and it’s not just the velocity – it’s also his command.
Plenty of legends seats available for Yankee home games!!
Field level too!! Only $350 per!
I’m proud to have lived in the same town as Jeter
The #1 absolute job Jeter will NOT be doing once he retires:
motivational speaker…can you say something without saying anything? yogi berra doesn’t count…
Regarding haiku’s:
1)the format is 5-7-5..some posters seem to miss the “7″ part by one or 2 syllables at times
2)does the Lohud Blog have blogger injury compensation: I think I’m getting carpel tunnel counting 5-7-5 on my fingers about 75 times a game….
sab-Casey Stengel managed to say a great deal w/o saying anything at all.
Ah yes! Derek Jeter. Future Hall-of-Famer. We worship the ground (and the women) you walk on. 35 years old and you are still like a kid in a candy store, only dating famous singers/models/actresses, and oh, yes of course — having your chauffeur pick up regular gals at nightclubs so they can have sex with you in your car and then be dumped off at the next corner. You’re a real class act!
Lets go Yankee fans!!
Buy up those legends seats.
Discount price!!
$1250 per ticket
Great…it looks like Melky might have gotten Cano sick with the flu.
Bridge Jumper,
You said:
“I dont think Jeter is a problem old guy, there are plenty others I put ahead of him on this team. If everyone played like DJ, we’d have won a WS every year since 2000.”
Yep. And if everybody on this team were paid like Jeter, we’d have a $200 million payroll without a bench or a pitching staff. What it’s all about — even though Yankee management, ownership, and often fans don’t always understand it — is what these guys contribute versus what they get paid.
The Red Sox understand that — which is only one of the reasons why they’ve beaten the Yankees so badly again and again in recent years.
By the way, I think he’s done an awful job as captain.
How many World Series titles have we won since he became captain? Zero.
How many post season series have we won since he became captain? Pitifully few. And none for how long?…
For whatever it may be worth, Jeter was appointed Captain in 2003, and the Yankees have not won a single series in the post season since 2004.
And he certainly sets a great example with his awesome work ethic — early to bed and early to rise and his awesome workout regimen and hours and hours in the batting cage.
No, wait — that’s Manny….
Happy Brithday JD!!!
spend it well and safe!!! From your favorite flight attendant!!!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEREK JETER FROM VALENCIA, VENEZUELA
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