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Another snoozer for Joba

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jul 01, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Because of the rain delay, there was less time to write for the newspaper, so I had to pick my spots for interviews after the game

A little Girardi, a little Matsui, a little Jeter, some Mo, some Bruney, some Hughes.

I passed on Joba because he wasn’t going to be a very big part of the story. The game was decided long after he was gone. That is usually the case with him.

Frankly, Joba has become boring. The Yankees are 10-5 in the games he starts but he has only six decisions. His ERA is 3.89, which is just OK. He has allowed 79 hits in 81 innings, pretty good. He has 73 strikeouts, not bad. The 40 walks are too much.

He’s just sort of there. Joba is averaging roughly 5.1 innings per start, far too little. He pitches with no rhythm, he seems uninterested in challenging hitters until he has to and then afterward says the same things, about how he’s learning and how good he feels.

Tonight was his 27th start, just about a full season. We should be close to seeing some sort of consistency, maybe a stretch of three or four good starts in a row. Instead we get a flash here or there then three more 5.1 inning specials.

I still think he’s a starter and deserves every chance to prove that. But somebody needs to sit Joba down and tell him. “Look, this is what you want. Start showing us that.”

He’s too good to be boring.

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170 Responses to “Another snoozer for Joba”

  1. vb03 July 1st, 2009 at 1:09 am

    He’ll pick it up at some point, a lot of patience is required with young starters. These guys take a long time to settle down.

  2. MJL July 1st, 2009 at 1:10 am

    Couldn’t have said it better myself. Needs to be more efficient and cut the walks in half.

  3. Max in MN July 1st, 2009 at 1:11 am

    Good call Pete. Great post. Joba is a cliche machine after the game in the interviews shown on YES. You should have seen Kim Jones take him to task for being “a bit irritated” by the questions, etc. Good stuff by your colleague!!!

  4. James July 1st, 2009 at 1:12 am

    You should be the last one I’m telling this to, Pete, Joba is 23, hard to believe but when Maddux, Glavine, and a lot of other greats took their lumps. He’s got plenty of time to grow, which I firmly believe he’s doing.

  5. carl July 1st, 2009 at 1:12 am

    Great post…he needs to pick it up.

  6. Shred July 1st, 2009 at 1:15 am

    Still think there’s something wrong with Joba. In the pen, he threw 96-100. Before the Texas game last year, as a starter, he was throwing 94-96. And now he throws 91-93??? Something isn’t right, and the Yanks should figure it out. That plus plus fastball isn’t even a plus pitch anymore, it’s mediocre. And I still don’t understand why Joba throws the slider every time on a 3-2 count. Every hitter knows that it’s coming and they take it for a walk. Joba needs the heater back, and only then will he be willing to challenge hitters IMO.

  7. Dan July 1st, 2009 at 1:16 am

    To take a quote from the previous post (Bruney), all I care about is if the Yankees win the game. And as Pete points out, the Yankees are 10-5 in those games (.666).

    If Joba is going to be ‘boring’ and keep the Yankees in game to the tune of winning 2 out of every 3, then I’ll take it!

  8. CompassRosy July 1st, 2009 at 1:17 am

    I’ll try this one more time – it seems the game thread was full of folks more excited about the Sox loss than the Yanks win ;-)
    _____________________________________________________
    _____________________________________________________

    Congrats on the 1st game, Yank fans.

    Told ya Brandon wasn’t the same pitcher you saw last September. Unfortunately for the M’s, Sean White wasn’t the pitcher he’s been most of this season (although this was his first time pitching in a week – been out w/forearm stiffness).

    And, we miss Adrian already.

    Here’s to a good game tomorrow…
    hoping there’s a rubber game on Thursday.

    ~Rosy

  9. m July 1st, 2009 at 1:20 am

    lol, Pete. Are you saying Joba isn’t exciting? You may never hear the end of that one.

    He is consistent. 5+ innings. Gets stronger with each inning. manages to limit the damage. Consistently boring sounds about right. :)

    But as long as we win, can’t get too upset about it.

  10. E-gawa July 1st, 2009 at 1:22 am

    OMG. A fair story on Joba! Wow Congrats Pete.

    I do agree the start was boring and no lie I did fall asleep in the middle of the game. His velocity issues tie into all of this.

    None of these other pitchers that everyone likes to bring up .. Beckett, Maddux, Pedro, Clemens whoever.. none of them had their fastballs drop 7-10mph.

    What’s going to eventually have to happen is that he’s going to have to be sent down to Scranton to get his work in. He’s just not the same pitcher since he’s been injured.

  11. E-gawa July 1st, 2009 at 1:23 am

    I should have put drop that much EARLY in their career* Obviously, some of them did drop that much when they got older.

  12. Rebecca--Optimist Prime July 1st, 2009 at 1:26 am

    Pete, he’s 23 years old.

    How good were Maddox/Johnson/Glavine then? Not saying Joba will be that good, but you can’t write him off just yet.

    People say the Devils play boring hockey. They’ve got the 2nd longest active playoff streak after the Red Wings.

    Everything in its time.

  13. Wang IS Taiwan July 1st, 2009 at 1:27 am

    Great post, Pete. Has anyone told Joba lately that he looks mediocre? That he’s looking like a #3 starter these days?

    Joba has an issue with cockiness it seems to me. He feels he’s already arrived for some reason. Where’s his drive to be the best? Does he honestly believe his initial press is still valid? I wonder…

    When are the Yanks (or the veterans) really going to have a good heart-to-heart with him? Or have they already tried?

    I’m disappointed that he isn’t pushing himself to improve more.

  14. teddy July 1st, 2009 at 1:31 am

    problem with that. is joba doesn’t have ace stuff. he a fastball pitcher without a pwer fastball. there sitting on breaking pitches cause joba can’t throw by them, so he trys to trick them, leads to long counts and bb. as a starter he was dominating, this year he doesn’t have the same stuff

  15. jfinfonsfosnf July 1st, 2009 at 1:31 am

    Joba is the teams 5th starter if you are getting 5-6 quality innings from him the yankees should be happy. He is only 23 years old. Like David Cone says Joba battles and keeps the team in the game and the record the team has when he pitches proves that.

  16. Vinny July 1st, 2009 at 1:32 am

    Who said he’s writing him off? All Pete is saying is that Joba needs to pick it up, and he’s right.

  17. teddy July 1st, 2009 at 1:32 am

    ace stuff at the moment, his plus fastball is nowhere to be found

  18. CB July 1st, 2009 at 1:32 am

    What Joba says after these games is largely irrelevant.

    When I listen to Joba after games it sounds to me like he’s learned a lot from Jeter.

    Joba since he’s come up to the majors has been in a maelstrom he had no part in creating. The way many of both the NY and national media have volleyed him back and forth as an easy controversy to froth interest has been ridiculous.

    This is a guy who as a 22 year old had dozens and dozens of stories written about his fist pumping.

    He’s a cliche machine after games by design. Anything he would say regarding his performance or his velocity or his role, etc. would just be used as a foundation to stoke the next Joba controversy on talk radio.

    Joba being boring off the field is no problem at all.

    What’s going on on the field is another issue. But his job isn’t to excite – it’s to be effective and to continue to get better.

  19. Fred July 1st, 2009 at 1:33 am

    3.89 ERA in the AL East is pretty good actually. His K/9 is good as well. Joba is 23 and still learning how to pace himself. Of course he’s not going to throw as hard when he knows he has to pitch more than 1 inning. He also seems to pitch much better when he’s away from Yankee Stadium.

    And who is talking about Joba going back to Scranton? He’s still easily their 3rd best starter. If you put Hughes back in the rotation he’s going to have the same problems- Diminished velocity and higher amount of walks.

  20. pat July 1st, 2009 at 1:34 am

    Lately Joba has been dull. His pitches aren’t sharp, a 3-2 count is the norm and I find myself thinking of tomorrows to-do list instead of being into the game. Boring would be an upgrade from where he is now.

  21. E-gawa July 1st, 2009 at 1:34 am

    Mike Maddox is a good comparison.

  22. carl July 1st, 2009 at 1:36 am

    “They don’t have Nintendo controllers in their back pocket,” he said. “You can’t expect them to be perfect.”
    - Joe G on Joba lol

  23. jfinfonsfosnf July 1st, 2009 at 1:36 am

    CB
    July 1st, 2009 at 1:32 am
    What Joba says after these games is largely irrelevant.

    When I listen to Joba after games it sounds to me like he’s learned a lot from Jeter.

    Joba since he’s come up to the majors has been in a maelstrom he had no part in creating. The way many of both the NY and national media have volleyed him back and forth as an easy controversy to froth interest has been ridiculous.

    This is a guy who as a 22 year old had dozens and dozens of stories written about his fist pumping.

    He’s a cliche machine after games by design. Anything he would say regarding his performance or his velocity or his role, etc. would just be used as a foundation to stoke the next Joba controversy on talk radio.

    Joba being boring off the field is no problem at all.

    What’s going on on the field is another issue. But his job isn’t to excite – it’s to be effective and to continue to get better.

    —————————————————-

    Exactly Joba is smart he is following the way Jeter handles the media. All Jeter does is speak in cliches. As opposed to A-Rod and the media waits to kill him over something silly he says.

  24. RS July 1st, 2009 at 1:39 am

    I still believe Joba can be a great starter in the future and that they absolutely need to stick with him in the rotation, but Pete’s right…Joba has not been fun to watch this year.

    Let’s be honest…is there much of a difference between Pettitte and Joba right now? Both allow a ton of baserunners and barely last 6 innings. The team has a good record in their starts, but watching them pitch makes you want to pull your hair out.

    When Joba was a rookie, I used to get goosebumps every time he pitched, and the whole team seemed energized by him. Now the guys probably hate playing defense behind him. At this point, he doesn’t even get enough K’s to justify all the deep counts het gets into. He just needs to challenge hitters and let his fielders do some of the work.

  25. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 1:41 am

    Maybe the writers can write a real story. Talk about how Sabathia is too selfish to get himself in shape, or, do a followup story on what a great guy the .197 hitting best buddy the writers have. You know…how much fun being around a guy like Giambi is.

  26. teddy July 1st, 2009 at 1:42 am

    joba needs to let it fly a power pitcher without a power fastball doesn’t sound

  27. teddy July 1st, 2009 at 1:43 am

    cc a top 5 pitcher in baseball, i think he knows what he doing

  28. G. Love July 1st, 2009 at 1:43 am

    I agree with Pete here.

    I don’t think Pete is saying Joba just a boring interview.

    I think he’s saying that as a pitcher we’re not seeing that lightning in the bottle that we caught when he came up.

    Hell, we don’t even see the cowboy that threw at Youk’s head pitch after pitch.

    It seems like everything, including his fastball, has been muted and toned down.

    What I will disagree with Pete on though is Joba’s success. He’s pitching well.

    Doesn’t look like a future staff ace right now though. It’s just mind boggling wondering where the electricity went.

    I still think he came into camp out of shape. I think the money, the fame and everything got in his head. The DUI is emblematic of that.

    I think Joba needs to come into camp next year with his lower body and core in tip top shape. I think that’s where the electric fastball went.

    It wasn’t just that Joba threw hard before. He threw hard with movement. Scary movement that made his fastball just as much of a K pitch as the breaking stuff.

    I hope he gets that fastball back.

    That said, he’s doing a good job this year and to some of us, “good” is boring. We expected great from this kid every time out.

    I don’t think it’s the media that did that to us.

    It was seeing him pitch when he first came up and seeing destroy the Red Sox last year in Fenway as a starter that did that to us.

  29. Uncle Ellsworth July 1st, 2009 at 1:43 am

    Seemed to me Joba was about to tell K jones to take a hike.
    Try as he might Joba is nowhere near jeter in answering inans questions to Jeter it is a game. Joba can’t hide his emotions

  30. Brandon... "R.I.P. King Of Pop" July 1st, 2009 at 1:43 am

    OT: But for Knicks fans David Lee’s Knicks career is over, According to a source he is said to have two offer sheets, one w/ the Thunder and another w/ the Grizzlies on the table.

    Thanks for the memories D-Lee :(

  31. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 1:44 am

    jfinfonsfosnf
    July 1st, 2009 at 1:36 am

    Exactly Joba is smart he is following the way Jeter handles the media. All Jeter does is speak in cliches. As opposed to A-Rod and the media waits to kill him over something silly he says.

    ————————————————————

    Except Rodriguez hasn’t said squat to the writers/media that they can twist and it’s killing them.

  32. CB July 1st, 2009 at 1:44 am

    It’s hard to imagine a young player in that locker room it’s watching both Jeter and Alex handle the media and think that wouldn’t have a major impact on how you deal with post game interviews, etc.

    Joba’s agents are the Hendricks brothers. They were Clemens and Pettite’s agents. I’d guess they’ve talked with Joba on how to handle the NY Media.

    There’s no advantage for the players to answer questions – many of which are leading in the extreme – with answers that amount to more than platitudes.

    It’s the same reason why Cashman never says anything.

    As a 21-22 year old Joba had to listen to the Francesa and George King lead crusade to completely reorient the direction of his professional life. If Joba had been shifted to the pen it could have cost him in excess of $100M over the span of his career.

    Anything he would say on that topic would have just fueled the next round of nonsense. There’s no way that doesn’t have an effect on a player as he’s just entering the league.

  33. Yankee Jay July 1st, 2009 at 1:44 am

    Living in Seattle and watching Felix Hernandez the last few seasons we have seen exactly what we are seeing with Joba. Flashes of brilliance, but a ho hum attitude and lack of focus and mental preparation.

    Lo and Behold, Wakamatsu calls him out after he allows 5 or so stolen bases in a game (kind of like Joba tonight) and boom he’s been on fire ever since – 5 runs in his last 7 starts.

  34. DYNASTY IS DESTINY! July 1st, 2009 at 1:47 am

    A soothsayer says…

    Forty-two, then sixty-two…

    Dynasty redux…

  35. jfinfonsfosnf July 1st, 2009 at 1:47 am

    When Joba was striking people out more often people were complaining he needs to pitch more to contact than trying to strike out every hitter. Now there are people who want him to strikeout more hitters. It looks like he is caught somewhere in between. He will figure it out, I guess people expected him to become an ace overnight. He didn’t even pitch much in the minors he is still a work in progress.

  36. E-gawa July 1st, 2009 at 1:47 am

    Joba is like “Wild Thing” from the major league 2. He needs to go back to his roots, dig out that leather jacket and start tearing stuff up again.

  37. teddy July 1st, 2009 at 1:49 am

    i don’t expect joba to be a ace now or in a few years. i veeb a joba starter foe long time. he can’t be throwing 91 mph meatball with no movement. he a fastball pitcher, he needs to throw gas

  38. Brandon... "R.I.P. King Of Pop" July 1st, 2009 at 1:50 am

    “Joba is like “Wild Thing” from the major league 2. He needs to go back to his roots, dig out that leather jacket and start tearing stuff up again.”

    LMAO waits for Joba to wear a suit and then get on a cereal box and than get FO-Hawk w/ the punk glasses :lol:

  39. raymagnetic July 1st, 2009 at 1:51 am

    Nearly a strikeout an inning? Good.

    Less hits than innings pitched? Good.

    Too many walks? Bad.

    3.89 ERA from the 5th starter? Good.

  40. CB July 1st, 2009 at 1:51 am

    “I think Joba needs to come into camp next year with his lower body and core in tip top shape. I think that’s where the electric fastball went. ”

    Hopefully it’s something that simple. Alternatively, perhaps that shoulder tendinitis caused him to change his off season throwing program due to caution and that’s the issue. Something similar to Wang’s issue with not running in the off season.

    It’s hard to know what’s going on.

    I know his velocity is what draws the most attention.

    But Joba’s biggest problem this year bar none is his location not his velocity. It’s possible he’s “nibbling” more because he doesn’t have his velocity. But the main issue is his control. It’s strange. He’s just not throwing strikes.

  41. m July 1st, 2009 at 1:51 am

    Why does Joba have to be exciting to watch? Watching Pettitte pitch is like watching paint dry. But as long as they win, that’s all that matters.

    Now if you want to say that this year’s Joba is different from last year’s Joba then you have a valid point. His stuff is different, his approach is different, and his personality is different. It could simply be that we’re seeing the transition to Joba the starter.

    I would like those few ticks back on his fastball, though. And the wrassling with the catchers is not very productive. And a little more length would be nice.

    Otherwise, I’m fine with boring Joba. He could be toning it down because people have criticized him for getting too pumped up. It could be that he’s going through something personal. Lots of things.

  42. teddy July 1st, 2009 at 1:52 am

    joba whip is awful. throwing 91 mph meatball. not good. joba needs to let it fly, thats when he at his best, when he in attack mode with an overpowering fastball

  43. Ramey July 1st, 2009 at 1:52 am

    Does anybody realize that at this point in his career, with his age, Joba has been BETTER than Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Randy Johnson, Johan Santana and Roy Halladay. I’ll take his 5.1 boring innings any day of the week if his future is even HALF as bright as the aforementioned players.

  44. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 1:53 am

    CB
    July 1st, 2009 at 1:44 am
    It’s hard to imagine a young player in that locker room it’s watching both Jeter and Alex handle the media and think that wouldn’t have a major impact on how you deal with post game interviews, etc.

    Joba’s agents are the Hendricks brothers. They were Clemens and Pettite’s agents. I’d guess they’ve talked with Joba on how to handle the NY Media.

    There’s no advantage for the players to answer questions – many of which are leading in the extreme – with answers that amount to more than platitudes.

    It’s the same reason why Cashman never says anything.

    As a 21-22 year old Joba had to listen to the Francesa and George King lead crusade to completely reorient the direction of his professional life. If Joba had been shifted to the pen it could have cost him in excess of $100M over the span of his career.

    Anything he would say on that topic would have just fueled the next round of nonsense. There’s no way that doesn’t have an effect on a player as he’s just entering the league.

    ————————————————————

    It’s like he’s taken the “pass yourself as a starter” to far in that direction. When he returned to starting, that’s what he was told. Eventually, he’ll figure out when to air it out and when to conserve.

    Looking back at Santana’s numbers, it seems that he had the same sort of issues when returning to the rotation after two years of relieving.

  45. Brandon... "R.I.P. King Of Pop" July 1st, 2009 at 1:54 am

    Can so see a heckler calling Joba a hack and has been, so instead of “Wild Thing” does he come out to “Indian Outlaw” :lol:

  46. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 1:54 am

    Correction: It’s like he’s taken the “pace yourself as a starter” to

  47. Richie July 1st, 2009 at 1:55 am

    That Joba has never regained the consistent velocity he had before he walked off the mound in Texas with a shoulder injury is troubling.

  48. Brandon... "R.I.P. King Of Pop" July 1st, 2009 at 1:57 am

    Joba: I want Parkman
    GI Joe: But Joba I got Mo here ready to come in
    Joba: I want Parkman

    :lol:

  49. CB July 1st, 2009 at 1:57 am

    “Why does Joba have to be exciting to watch? ”

    More and more these issues with Joba remind me of what Brazil’s national soccer team has to deal with.

    It’s not enough that their soccer team win. It’s not even enough for them to score a lot of goals. They have to play the “beautiful game” to make their fans and the media there placated. The aesthetics of the game are as important – if not more than how much they win.

    People don’t only demand that Joba pitch well or helps the team wing. They want electricity watching him. They’re demanding that he gives them goosebumps. That’s the way success is being defined for him.

    It’s a near impossible standard to meet.

  50. m July 1st, 2009 at 1:58 am

    Joba’s fastball is not suffering because he’s holding back or pacing himself. There’s a legitimate cause, be it physical or mechanics related.

    He was throwing high 90′s in the 7th inning last season, that’s what opened people’s eyes and made them say, “Wow!”. That’s why expectations are over the top for him.

    But I’d rather he not force things. Look at what happened to Liriano.

    Bottom line is that it’s exciting to watch the team win.

  51. Brandon... "R.I.P. King Of Pop" July 1st, 2009 at 1:59 am

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwPrcuo_cUE

    That was Joba’s original theme music when he came up, then the Yankees got him “Shout At The Devil”.

  52. Brandon...Joba = Rick "The Vild Thing" Vaughn according to some here LOL July 1st, 2009 at 2:02 am

    SMH at that thought process E-gawa.

  53. CompassRosy July 1st, 2009 at 2:03 am

    Lo and Behold, Wakamatsu calls him out after he allows 5 or so stolen bases in a game (kind of like Joba tonight) and boom he’s been on fire ever since – 5 runs in his last 7 starts.
    ______________________________________________________

    I remember Wak’s “calling out” well, I was listening on the radio while waiting for the bus after the game…

    http://compassrosy.blogspot.co.....-wild.html

  54. CB July 1st, 2009 at 2:05 am

    “It’s like he’s taken the “pass yourself as a starter” to far in that direction. When he returned to starting, that’s what he was told. Eventually, he’ll figure out when to air it out and when to conserve.”

    This wouldn’t surprise me at all.

    From Joba’s perspective – I could see him coming to the conclusion that if I don’t prove that I can throw at least 150 innings this season I’m going to get dumped back in the pen. I can’t see him wanting to relieve when he’s been a starter his whole life.

    Getting shifted back to the pen would not only completely alter his career from a competition standpoint it could cost him well over $100M.

    I’d have to think his agents talked to him about this many times.

    The criteria for him being a successful starter were set so high that it was relatively easy for him to get written off as a “failed” starter and shifted back to the pen.

    He had the most overblown case of rotator cuff tendinitis in the world last year.

    He very well may be throwing in a way which maximizes the chances that he’ll make it through the season and he might have no good idea on how to pace himself to make sure that happens.

  55. Wangawa July 1st, 2009 at 2:05 am

    The old Joba used to have a fastball like Brandon Morrow’s tonight… Not sure what happened to it, but it changes everything about the way he pitches.

  56. G. Love July 1st, 2009 at 2:05 am

    I don’t think any Yankee fan is upset with how Joba is interviewing.

    Who gives a fart about that.

    It’s the movement and speed on his fastball that is troubling.

    Let’s not forget he was throwing the kind of fastball that seemed to rise as it got closer to hitters. He made great hitters look downright silly.

    Remember when it was a huge deal that someone took him deep?

    I know the sample was small because he was relieving, but the pitches were different.

    I think if you watched video of his start against Beckett in Fenway last year and any of his starts this season you’d realize we’re watching a guy who is slightly less than what he was at that point.

    I hope this is all part of the transition and he’s going to come out gangbusters in the future.

    Right now he’s doing a good job. There is no reason to put him in the pen.

    It’s just hard to watch Kong politely ask the hot blonde for the time when we’re used to seeing him grab her and take her up to the top of a building.

  57. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 2:06 am

    Two years ago, the media and fans created a God out of a rookie reliever and because he’s not Nolan Ryan, they are disappointed and now, nothing he does is enough for them. The worst thing that could have happened was a near perfect debut season.

  58. E-gawa July 1st, 2009 at 2:09 am

    Joba will have to get his own candy bar.. I tried looking up cereals and no one really does that anymore. It’s all about owning your own candy bar like the moose bar or the unit bar.

  59. CB July 1st, 2009 at 2:10 am

    “I don’t think any Yankee fan is upset with how Joba is interviewing. ”

    Not true G. Love. People are posting about this. There’s been posts comparing his post game interviews to the now overblown and infamous one Ian Kennedy gave last year which caused many fans to completely turn against him.

    Many people really take what players and team executives say as the truth. The cliche Joba’s spews are starting to be taken as a sign of him “not caring” or being indifferent.

    There were posts like this in the game thread tonight. You can see it coming.

  60. m July 1st, 2009 at 2:10 am

    GB7,

    Pretty close, but not quite accurate imo.

    Joba wasn’t God. He was a rock star who burst on the scene.

    People want that sparkling ERA he had as a set-up guy, but it’s ridiculous to think that a starter can hold a sub-2 ERA.

    I hope the Yankees figure out what’s wrong and see if it can be fixed, though.

  61. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 2:11 am

    CB, that’s where a couple of guys like Sabathia and even Burnett could help him. Maybe they’ve tried, but, it’s pretty obvious that Chamberlain is stubborn and maybe a liitle too arrogant for his own good. He shows that during the game with the constant shaking off. I’d hate to say that he might be uncoachable, but, damned, it sure seems that way.

  62. djsunyc July 1st, 2009 at 2:14 am

    too early to re-visit melky + hughes + kennedy for johan?

    melky is senor clutch and hughes is looking philthy…

  63. m July 1st, 2009 at 2:14 am

    Oops. What I meant by he was a rock star, meant that he was Next. Literally, cover of ESPN mag and everything. He was on a meteoric rise, living the life. But he had some off-field problems, well really just the one, as well.

    Anyway, Joba’s different now, in lots of ways. But, I think one of the vets will say something, and it’ll work out fine. :P

  64. Uncle Ellsworth July 1st, 2009 at 2:17 am

    Joba will have an eye opening July. Bank on it.

  65. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 2:18 am

    I don’t know what they should do. Do they call up Dunn or Melancon and put Hughes in the rotation and send Chamberlain to Scranton for a wakeup call? He keeps the Yanks in the game, but, he’s so much better than this.

  66. CB July 1st, 2009 at 2:19 am

    GB7,

    When Joba first came up he said something which really struck me.

    He said that when he loses his command he would throw his slider because his slider mechanics were such that they’d put his release point back to it’s correct spot for his fastball.

    I remember that because it’s unusual for a young pitcher to have that kind of confidence and even dependence on his breaking pitch. That’s usually what young pitchers struggle with.

    I think Joba has fallen in love and come to depend too much on his slider and breaking stuff. For whatever reason he has more trust in that than in his fastball. It’s paradoxical but I think that’s the case. He gives up on his fastball too much and isn’t using it to attack the zone.

    Tonight he threw his fastball for strikes 59% of the time. That is far too low. He threw his slider for strikes 55% of the time. That should also be higher.

    But the big story there is that he’s barely throwing his fastball for more strikes than he is his slider – a pitch he often intentionally throws out of the zone.

    He’s too wrapped up in his breaking stuff and not trusting enough of his fastball. I don’t know why but it seems to be a comfort issue. He was the same way when he was in the pen. He was becoming more and more dependent on that slider.

    That needs to change.

  67. Johnny D. July 1st, 2009 at 2:20 am

    What?!? GreenBeret, that would be idiotic and insane.

  68. Pat M. July 1st, 2009 at 2:20 am

    When Phil Hughes hit the scene in the Spring of 07 and during his 2nd Major League start had a no hitter going then pulled his hamstring, the expectations were beyond unfair…..And even as he had some brillant starts this spring ( in Detroit & in Texas ) once again the bar was set once again beyond what he was ready to provide outing form outing…..He too was getting hammered here as well as in the media…..These are 2 very young and extrememly talented pitchers that are learning their profession….Time and tolerance is what is called for when judging there place in 2009

  69. Uncle Ellsworth July 1st, 2009 at 2:20 am

    GB
    sounds like you are agreeing with Pete to some extent.

  70. m July 1st, 2009 at 2:22 am

    GB7,

    Snort. They’d never do that. Joba’s got the Golden Ticket.

    Can’t get too upset about things because he’s not hurting the Yankees.

    But if this is still happening next season, and there’s no development. Yeah, you’ve got to think they’ll do something.

  71. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 2:23 am

    Uncle Ellsworth
    July 1st, 2009 at 2:20 am
    GB
    sounds like you are agreeing with Pete to some extent.

    ————————————————————

    Oh, God…NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Not that. Hand me a razor blade. I’m gonna slit my throat.

  72. G. Love July 1st, 2009 at 2:24 am

    CB,

    I’ve been avoiding the post game interviews on YES so I didn’t know what people were complaining about. Something about watching Girardi get interviewed was making me not like him so I stopped watching those.

    Personally, I think any fan who has ever seen Bull Durham should know that these guys are trained to give pat answers.

    That said, Kennedy’s interview last year in Anaheim I caught and it incensed me as a fan so I understand why fans may squawk if Joba’s coming of as cavalier as IPK did.

    I’m not expecting Joba to pitch to 1.00 ERA as a starter. However, there’s a difference in fastball. That’s the truth.

    A lot of us are wondering what happened to it.

    That’s it for me. Otherwise I think he’s doing a good job. Beats the snot out of Ponson/Rasner/DeSalvo/Karstens types.

  73. Jones July 1st, 2009 at 2:24 am

    I think Joba will learn. He seems like he can be stubborn and make it difficult for a catcher. Girardi must be a “cool type of guy”, because theres certain managers in this league that would probably rip Joba to shreds for shaking off a catcher so much. He is much better than this. Thats why its mind-boggling. I know its a long shot, maybe a crazy idea, but what about a 6 man rotation? Adding Hughes

  74. Uncle Ellsworth July 1st, 2009 at 2:24 am

    I think we’d all like to see Justin flirtin with the 7th instead of the 6th

  75. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 2:26 am

    Johnny D.
    July 1st, 2009 at 2:20 am
    What?!? GreenBeret, that would be idiotic and insane.

    ————————————————————

    No, it isn’t. When you’re dealing with a petulent child and you’ve tried everything else, the only thing that gets their attention is a good, swift kick in the ass.

  76. m July 1st, 2009 at 2:26 am

    Do the beat writers get together and plan their agendas? Brian Hoch wrote a similar post. If one of the writers makes a big deal out of Joba having problems, look for Olney to write a blog entry (like he did for Posada), and tomorrow will be a spitstorm here on LoHud.

  77. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 2:28 am

    m
    July 1st, 2009 at 2:22 am
    GB7,

    Snort. They’d never do that. Joba’s got the Golden Ticket.

    Can’t get too upset about things because he’s not hurting the Yankees.

    But if this is still happening next season, and there’s no development. Yeah, you’ve got to think they’ll do something.

    ————————————————————

    He is hurting the team. He hurts the other starters, he especially puts undue strain on the bullpen and even the offense is affected by having to repeatedly fighting back to recover leads.

  78. dennis-Costanza July 1st, 2009 at 2:30 am

    Re:post game interviews.

    There is zero upside in giving anything but a canned response. Agents/Representatives preach this to players on a weekly basis.

    This is why covering Ozzie Guillen is the golden ticket..

    -dennis

  79. truantbuick July 1st, 2009 at 2:30 am

    Not that I necessarily disagree that he has stuff to work on, but I can’t figure out how people keep just dismissing his ERA as just “okay”. Without even considering the poor conditions Joba has had to pitch under, that is a good ERA. When you do consider that he’s had to pitch at Yankee Stadium and change his approach while also in the powerhouse division, it’s a great ERA.

  80. CB July 1st, 2009 at 2:31 am

    “If one of the writers makes a big deal out of Joba having problems, look for Olney to write a blog entry (like he did for Posada), and tomorrow will be a spitstorm here on LoHud.”

    This is why I wrote that first post on his the notion of his comments being boring.

    I know that wasn’t the entire point of what Pete was saying.

    But you can just see it coming now. The next completely overblown Joba controversy.

    Soon we’re going to see stories questioning whether Joba “cares” or if he “gets it” or if the success has gone to his head, etc.

    It’s coming. The nonsense is gathering critical mass.

  81. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 2:32 am

    Good morning, Dennis. Did you help drive the price of oil down?

    Hope all is well up in Grissly Adams country.

  82. m July 1st, 2009 at 2:39 am

    truant,

    People are just spoiled.

    But what are these poor conditions you refer to? Rain delay? AJ & Hughes had those as well. Of course, they didn’t fare as well, but that’s besides the point!

    The only poor conditions are those that Joba places on himself. First inning issues, habitually shaking off the catchers, and not attacking the hitters.

    Perhaps, he’s concerned with his own diminished stuff?

  83. Pat M. July 1st, 2009 at 2:39 am

    CB, Let the kid grow into being a major league starting pitcher who has to deal with the unfair expectations that have been thused upon him….He’s going to be a fine outstanding pitcher with a chance of being someting very special…Hughes got a head start in this regard, and they will be flip flopping the spotlight for years to come….

  84. dennis-Costanza July 1st, 2009 at 2:40 am

    GB7.

    Crude is up for August trading. Trading at roughly 70.60. Inventories are down or so we are told…

    Grissly Adams? LMAO. Amy tells me the photo will be done by the end of the end of the weekend. You will have it next week via fedex.

    -dennis

  85. Jonathan Everett July 1st, 2009 at 2:41 am

    Pete is absolutely right, but I find it quite interesting that he defended Phil Hughes so much and at least Joba is keeping the Yankees in the game. Where is the patience for him? Is it just me or do all of Jobas starts seem to get delayed by weather?

  86. m July 1st, 2009 at 2:43 am

    Someone posted stats today. So Joba’s still winless at NYS?

    BTW, DeRosa (0-9 since joining Cards) left today’s game with a wrist injury. Tests tomorrow.

  87. CB July 1st, 2009 at 2:45 am

    “He’s going to be a fine outstanding pitcher with a chance of being someting very special…”

    Last year at this time many people were incensed with Hughes and wrote him off as a bust. He was essentially blamed for the yankees not acquiring Santana. His mental strength was questined.

    Now he’s the darling and Joba is going through some growing pains.

    Just like Hughes improved so will Joba. As you said, the expectations are impossible.

  88. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 2:53 am

    Yanks have interest in Shortstop Damian Arredondo from the domincan Republic.

    Arangure Jr. On International Prospects
    By Eddie Schmid [June 30 at 9:01pm CST]
    ESPN’s Jorge Arangure Jr. has been all over the market for potential signings from Latin America ahead of July 2nd, the first day teams are officially eligible to sign international free agents. Let’s check out his latest action on the beat:

    The Braves and Reds supposedly watched the workouts for shortstop prospect Humberto Valor. One scout called him “the best position player in Venezuela,” and he’s expected to get a bonus in the range of $1.5MM-$2.2MM.
    The Red Sox are apparently set to sign Dominican right-hander Raul Alcantara for $500k. Here’s a scouting report, and one scout said he’s “better than [Michael] Ynoa.”

    The Brewers and Yankees are said to be “all over” SS prospect Damian Arredondo, touted for his “raw speed.”

  89. Maria July 1st, 2009 at 2:54 am

    The best memory I have of Joba is his game vs. Beckett last year when he threw at Youk’s head and it hit his bat instead and then Joba had the ability to strike him out enraging Youk beyond belief. While I don’t like head hunting, it seemed like a moment that showed Joba had amazing confidence. I think it is hard for him this year as he seems to be struggling. Someone needs to get to him and figure out his problems. Why does he nibble? He does throw several 95 mph fastballs and did so this game but why are they missing the zone? I don’t believe Joba doesn’t care. You don’t move throw the Yankees minor system become a star reliever with a 0.00 era and then move on to be considered one of the best starting pitching prospects without attitude, perseverance, and hard work. As long as we win on Joba’s starts, I am happy but I would like to see some more of those flashes of brilliance like the 8 inning game from this year and the Beckett game last year. I know he is capable of it and I think with time he will have less “boring” games and more good to brilliant games.

  90. jfinfonsfosnf July 1st, 2009 at 2:54 am

    CB
    July 1st, 2009 at 2:45 am
    “He’s going to be a fine outstanding pitcher with a chance of being someting very special…”

    Last year at this time many people were incensed with Hughes and wrote him off as a bust. He was essentially blamed for the yankees not acquiring Santana. His mental strength was questined.

    Now he’s the darling and Joba is going through some growing pains.

    Just like Hughes improved so will Joba. As you said, the expectations are impossible.

    —————————————————

    All of Hughes starts this year except for 1 have been six or less innings. He was basically doing the same thing Joba is doing as a starter. Except now Hughes looks all world in the bullpen similar to Joba when he first came up. I think Chamberlain and Hughes will both become great starters but people thinking they will become aces overnight are not being realistic. Even David Price with all his hype is struggling and pitching inconsistently which most young pitchers do.

  91. nmc July 1st, 2009 at 2:58 am

    3.89 ERA in the AL East seems pretty damn good to me.

  92. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 3:02 am

    dennis-Costanza
    July 1st, 2009 at 2:40 am
    GB7.

    Crude is up for August trading. Trading at roughly 70.60. Inventories are down or so we are told…

    Grissly Adams? LMAO. Amy tells me the photo will be done by the end of the end of the weekend. You will have it next week via fedex.

    -dennis

    ————————————————————

    You deal in crude oil by the barrel. I deal in refined oil by the quart. Not much difference really.

    I’m really looking forward to that photograph. It will hang with my artist’s sketch of Mickey Mantle in a place of honor. That is just an amazing photo. My deepest gratitude to you and Amy for the gift.

    I picture you stomping around town in your flannel checkered shirt, bibbed overalls and flip flops.

  93. chris July 1st, 2009 at 3:08 am

    pete: you are such a good observer of this game and of people, especially the trials of which joba is going through.

    i read your blog, 3,4,5 times a day. mainly, b/c you’re such a GD good writer. thanks for the effort. i am the executive producer of a blog at adobe. it takes A LOT of work and dedication to pull something like this off. and you do. in spades…

  94. Maria July 1st, 2009 at 3:13 am

    Pete, was that you who Bruney said asked a stupid question? I thought I heard him say that in the post game interview.

    I know he was a little upset by his performance and the ny media can be harsh but I wish the guys would learn to take the Jeter/Mariano approach and take both success and failure graceful. Easier said than done I guess.

  95. Maria July 1st, 2009 at 3:13 am

    *gracefully.

  96. Uke July 1st, 2009 at 3:21 am

    Do any of you geniuses realize Joba doesn’t even have a full season of starts under his belt, and does anyone here actually watch the game and see him hitting 94-96 in the middle innings with his ‘meatball fastball’? He is TWENTY THREE, go out there and do a better job if you can.

  97. Pat M. July 1st, 2009 at 3:57 am

    Joba may not be delivering the lenght of innings that many would desire or even unfairly demand….However waht is delivering is what is the starting pitchers creed, departing from his outing leaving his team with a very favorable chance to win the game……Just as Hughes was doing in his starts this season, leaving with a cahnce to win the game even when he must leave in Hughes case due to hitting his 75-80 pitches….This is folks, what we should be focusing on, and the rest will come……

  98. sad joba July 1st, 2009 at 3:58 am

    good post. he seems like hes a bit depressed and needs to build up his ego some more. battle it out joba! rawr

  99. DCStack July 1st, 2009 at 5:24 am

    Pete, you should know this better than anyone. There are two Jobas. The road Joba, averaging 6+ innings per start with a 2.74 ERA, and the home Joba, averaging less than 5 innings per start with a 5.17 ERA. He’s afraid to throw strikes at home because of the ballpark. He is walking nearly 6 per 9 at home and about 3 per 9 on the road. NYS is doing this to him.

  100. Tom July 1st, 2009 at 6:02 am

    I’ll take boring wins any day.

  101. Arjun Sankalia July 1st, 2009 at 6:09 am

    Hello all the way from Mumbai, India. Been following your blog for a while now. I completely agree with you on the Bruney (mis)use issue- If Hughes is pitching well why not use him in the 7th and 8th inning role…like what Mo used to do in 1996. I always thought managing a bullpen is about going with the hot hand.

  102. swingsandmisses July 1st, 2009 at 6:39 am

    “Joba is 23, hard to believe but when Maddux, Glavine, and a lot of other greats took their lumps.”
    ————————————
    That’s totally inaccurate. When Maddux was twenty-one he posted a 5.61 ERA, when Glavine was twenty-two, he lost 17 games. That kind of failure is motivational because you never want to be that bad again. Joba is coasting along on his talent and seemingly content to do so because he’s doing okay and every one already treats him like a star. Every time someone mentions some Cy Young caliber pitcher that Joba is “better than” at the same stage of development, this fact is neglected. When you get shellacked around, the league is telling you that you better work harder, make changes, and re-think your pitching philosophy if you want to become successful. It’s the guys who answer that challenge, alongside the true prodigies that are All-Star caliber big league starters right away, who grow up to become elite pitchers.

  103. jvcelt July 1st, 2009 at 6:40 am

    i agree with our friend from mumbai. u have a guy (hughes) who u eventually want to be a starter. he threw only 9 pitches, and was effective. why in the world would u take him out, and hope that the next guy is also going to be on his ‘a-game’? last night bruney was not, and it cost us the lead. our manager, the guy that i wanted to be our manager, is using faulty logic.

  104. carl July 1st, 2009 at 6:48 am

    Kim Jones is owning Adam the bull right now lmao

  105. YankeeDiva July 1st, 2009 at 6:50 am

    OH NO a young pitcher who still under an innings watch has an era of 3.89!! We need to get rid of him!

    People need to have some patience with the kids, there are going to be some growing pains along the way. Most good/great pitchers don’t come into the league with 2.0 era’s.

    I for the life of me can’t understand why people are so eager to declare people failures when they don’t live up to outrageous expectations.

  106. carl July 1st, 2009 at 7:04 am

    YankeeDiva

    We all understand hes young but come on, No one whats to sit there and watch him throw 100 pitches in 5 innings while walking 5. Not to mention all the 3-2 counts. Then the same old cliches in his post games.

  107. YankeeDiva July 1st, 2009 at 7:22 am

    Jeter gives the same old cliches after every game, in fact each of us could probably tell you exactly what he would so whining about Joba doing it makes no sense.

    Fans and media could learn a few things as well. Look at how Hughes struggled last year but seems to have found his way this year and has been great. Joba isn’t even as bad Hughes was… most people don’y come into the league always superstars and go through the learning process before they become successful.

  108. SJ44 July 1st, 2009 at 7:42 am

    I don’t care about his post game interviews. He’s just trying to be PC, not to be “entertaining” like Jerry Manuel so the beat writers won’t criticize him.

    Joba Chamberlain had less than 200 innings in the minor leagues as a starting pitcher. These days, teams like to have 500-600 innings from their prospects before they see the major leagues. He rocketed through the system like no Yankee pitcher in recent memory.

    He excelled out of the bullpen for a short period of time, achieved rock star status (WAY too soon from EVERYBODY, fans, media AND teammates) and, simply put, it went to his head.

    He got away a bit from the training he put in to put himself in the kind of shape that gave him that status.

    Add to it, a shoulder injury, an off-season DUI and the fact that he came into camp out of shape, and its been an upihill battle for him so far this season.

    His biggest problem isn’t his velocity. He gave up a HR on a 95 MPH fastball last night. He touched 96 and 97 in his last two starts. His problem is he can’t sustain command and velocity for two reasons:

    1. His mechanics haven’t been consistent all year.
    2. His legs need to be stronger. In other words, he needs to get in better shape this off-season.

    Its not about being skinny. CC Sabathia is pushing 3 bills and his legs, the power source for power pitchers, are in GREAT shape.

    Joba needs to get stronger and get his legs in better shape. If he does, his mechanics will be more together and his stuff will be sharper.

    Its all in the evolution of a young pitcher.

    These struggles are good for Joba because they are humbling. If he works hard, he will get better because the talent is there. If he doesn’t, he will be a “didn’t you used to be” guy, and we all hope that doesn’t happen.

    Joba, not Joe Girardi, Dave Eiland, or any catcher, holds the key to his improvement. Work harder, you get better results.

    The two go hand in hand.

  109. Doreen July 1st, 2009 at 7:43 am

    I don’t mind Joba’s or anyone else’s cliches in the post-game. That’s de rigueur anyway for most of the Yankees. But Joba needs to believe them or sell them better – he either does not make eye contact or he’s looking at a teleprompter hanging from the ceiling above his locker – ’cause that’s where his eyes were focused when answering his questions. :)

    Seriously, though, post-game interviews aside (which is where they really ought to be), I think most fans are genuinely concerned about Joba. I think there are a faction of fans that see a young man who is still learning his craft and have the capacity for patience. Then there is a faction of fans that are tearing their hair out because he’s not as “electric.” And then there are those, like me, who are in the middle of the two – hoping there are no underlying physical issues, wishing Joba wouldn’t be so plodding (he doesn’t get into a rhythm and slows down the game, getting into too many 3-2 counts), that he would almost stop thinking and start throwing (pitching), but who ultimately realize he’s doing a (overall better-than) decent job.

    But I think we’re (or I should say “I” am) also coming to the realization that he is not a “phenom,” though he is far from ordinary, and I keep going back to the idea that the original move of bringing him up as a RP was not necessarily the best one. Yes, it was the best for the team at the time, but I question (20/20 hindsight-wise) if it was the best for Joba.

  110. Doreen July 1st, 2009 at 7:45 am

    SJ44 -

    That’s exactly what I was thinking – he flew through the minor leagues, getting everyone he faced out, and had not real “seasoning” time.

  111. Doreen July 1st, 2009 at 7:47 am

    And I don’t mean to imply that because I don’t think he’s a “phenom” that I’m disappointed. Phenoms are very few and far between. Doc Gooden was a phenom. But we all know how that ended.

  112. Smarter than Bobby Heenan July 1st, 2009 at 7:50 am

    Can we stop with the Greg Maddux comparisons? Maddux won 18 games when he was 22 and 19 games when he was 23.

  113. @hsilverm11375 July 1st, 2009 at 7:52 am

    It seems to me that Joba is not pitching with the same passion as he had earlier in his career. I’m not talking about a fist pump after every pitch but he looks so much better when the adrenaline is pumping. He needs to figure out how to naitain that passion over the course of a start without going over the top.

  114. @hsilverm11375 July 1st, 2009 at 7:52 am

    that was “maintain”

  115. EDUB July 1st, 2009 at 7:57 am

    Go out and vote for Tex for all star game. Time running out and he’s losing to Pukelis barely right now

  116. #23 Hitman July 1st, 2009 at 8:02 am

    Im sorry……but is anyone else still smiling just a little bigger this morning from the Beantown CHOKE JOB?? Oh so nice!!! LOL!

  117. Someone Else July 1st, 2009 at 8:10 am

    I’ll take boring over crappy any day and twice on Sundays.

  118. SJ44 July 1st, 2009 at 8:12 am

    It isn’t about “passion”. When you are in deep counts and grinding all the time, its hard to show emotion. Its too draining.

    Its about consistency and he’s a 23 year old kid learning how to be more consistent at the big league level AND in New York City.

    Frankly, folks expect too much from Joba at this stage of his career.

    He’s the #5 starter on this team. That’s his role. To that end, his numbers are better than the average #5 starter in the AL.

    Instead of focusing on that fact, everybody, especially some members of the media that stoke this debate, want more.

    He’s an inexperienced pitcher in the grand scheme of things.

    He hasn’t even pitched as much at the college level as other guys (Ian Kennedy) for example, who played 3 seasons of college baseball.

    The hype, not starting out in the bullpen, is what has hurt Joba.

    He just has to work harder. If he does, he will figure it out because he has a lot of talent.

    However, it takes more than talent to be great. That’s why having guys like CC and AJ around him, guys closer to his own age and who have experienced the peaks and valleys in the game, will serve Joba well in the long run.

    In the meantime, folks need to see him for what he is, the fifth starter on the team, and not get caught up in the hype.

    Its also why its imperative that Wang and Pettitte get it together. Four vets and a young starter makes this rotation very dangerous.

  119. Someone Else July 1st, 2009 at 8:14 am

    “That’s totally inaccurate. When Maddux was twenty-one he posted a 5.61 ERA, when Glavine was twenty-two, he lost 17 games. That kind of failure is motivational because you never want to be that bad again. Joba is coasting along on his talent and seemingly content to do so because he’s doing okay and every one already treats him like a star. Every time someone mentions some Cy Young caliber pitcher that Joba is “better than” at the same stage of development, this fact is neglected. When you get shellacked around, the league is telling you that you better work harder, make changes, and re-think your pitching philosophy if you want to become successful. It’s the guys who answer that challenge, alongside the true prodigies that are All-Star caliber big league starters right away, who grow up to become elite pitchers.”

    Oh look, another genius who can read Joba’s mind.

  120. Giuseppe Franco July 1st, 2009 at 8:14 am

    Someone Else July 1st, 2009 at 8:10 am

    I’ll take boring over crappy any day and twice on Sundays.

    ———————

    You said it, brother.

    I’ll take a boring 3 ER in 5.1 IP over 6 or 7 ER in 3-4 IP.

    Even when he’s terrible, he still keeps his team in the game every time he takes the mound.

    How many 23 years old kids have that ability?

  121. Betsy July 1st, 2009 at 8:14 am

    Maybe Joe wanted Phil available for Andy’s start tonight, but at most he can now go 1 inning, so what’t the point? Joe made a stupid decision and he should take grief for it. I understand Bruney needs to pitch, but guess what? So does Phil – he needs innings. Ok, he’s not going to be sent down to get them…..so he needs to get them while he can up here. Pitching 1 inning at a time does him no good. That’s just one reason I think it was a dumb decision to take him out. The kid was dominating, why can’t Joe just let himn pitch? Joe is just so rigid in his thinking. How many times have we seen Joe take Phil out so that Coke could come in to face a lefty? Just play the hot hand – Bruney could have waited for another day, it really would have been ok.

  122. Steve B July 1st, 2009 at 8:16 am

    “Joba Chamberlain had less than 200 innings in the minor leagues as a starting pitcher. These days, teams like to have 500-600 innings from their prospects before they see the major leagues”

    Doesn’t seem as true as in years past as the MLB seems to get younger. All these guys had growing pains of sorts too, but pitched nowhere near 500-600 in the minors: Lincecum (62 innigs!!!), Verlander, Weaver, Hamels, Kershaw, Cueto, Gallardo.

    I’m thinking that in the Testing Era (I don’t dare say post PED era, because I don’t really believe it) that number that was once 500-600 may be closer to 250-350, especially for the more exceptional young pitchers.

  123. Someone Else July 1st, 2009 at 8:18 am

    “In the meantime, folks need to see him for what he is, the fifth starter on the team, and not get caught up in the hype.”

    EX-ACT-LY.

    The d00d’s a 23 year old in his first full major league season as a starter.

    I’ll take 5 innings a game with a 3.89 ERA anyday.

    It almost sounds like, from guys like Pete, people would prefer 6.5 IP/start with a 6.00 ERA.

  124. Steve B July 1st, 2009 at 8:18 am

    “How many 23 years old kids have that ability?”

    Half dozen or so.

  125. Doreen July 1st, 2009 at 8:22 am

    Betsy -

    But if Bruney’s problem is “rust,” then he needs the work, too. Before he went on the DL, Bruney was outstanding. I think, while Girardi “could have” and maybe even “should have” left Hughes in, with a 2-run lead, I don’t see a huge problem with going to Bruney. If he pitched well, no harm, no foul, really. Ultimately, they do have to find out what they’ve got, once again, out in that bullpen.

    And while they seem fully invested in keeping Hughes in the bullpen, I think they’re still feeling out how best to use him and everyone else.

    You don’t know before a guy throws a pitch if he’s going to be effective.

    I know the issue seems to be that Hughes only threw 9 pitches and he could have gone another, but for Girardi, it’s not all about Hughes.

    I would have liked to have seen Hughes go another inning, too, though.

  126. SJ44 July 1st, 2009 at 8:22 am

    Steve,

    Those guys you mentioned haven’t had injuries and have had their share of ups and downs.

    Its a roller coaster ride with ALL young pitchers.

    In NY, especially with the Yankees, folks seem to forget that fact.

  127. SJ44 July 1st, 2009 at 8:24 am

    One thing we haven’t seen yet from Hughes in the pen……going back to back nights.

    You have to do that in order to pitch out of the bullpen.

    After only throwing 9 pitches last night, he will be able to do that today, if needed.

    I think before they put him in the 8th inning role (which I think will eventually happen) they have to see if he can pitch effectively on back to back games.

  128. Doreen July 1st, 2009 at 8:27 am

    SJ44 -

    It’s a “process.” :lol:

  129. JsDad July 1st, 2009 at 8:27 am

    The expectations for Joba were extraordinarily high, almost certainly too high. It’s as if we were all looking for the 1978 Ron Guidry or 1985 Doc Gooden from him this year, his very first full year as a starting pitcher.

    What we’ve gotten — a winning record, a respectable ERA — is not bad. It’s just that it pales compared to the Cy Young level pitcher we hoped he’d be.

    Whether he had too many distractions during the offseason, needs to work out more, or simply needs more experience, I don’t know. But this kind of season still leaves a lot of hope that he’ll develop into a #1 ace level pitcher in the near future.

  130. Doreen July 1st, 2009 at 8:28 am

    Oops. Betsy, I meant to say, for Girardi it’s not “only” about Hughes.

  131. Betsy July 1st, 2009 at 8:33 am

    I do think Joba is immature………but on the other hand, it would have been difficult for ANY kid to deal with the instant fame that came his way after his brilliant debut in 2007. Eventually, Joba will learn – like SJ said, he should take advantage of the the knowledge in that clubhouse. He’s got CC and AJ and Andy – heck, AJ is a 10 year vet at age 32 and he made a point in ST to lap up everything that Andy said. People got on AJ for trying to help Joba (to not try to always try and throw the ball through the wall, etc…..), but I never got that. I think it’s good that he was willing to teach and also that Joba was willing to listen.

    Phil has been through the press and fan wringer – worse, in fact, than what Joba is going through, because he wasn’t traded for Santana. Fans blamed him for not having absolutely instantaneouus lights-out success although he was just 21/22 – it was pathetic. Scouts even were calling him at best a #3 – an overhyped bust. He got through that – but he’d already said in ST 2008 that he doesn’t pay attention to the media (doesn’t listen to sports radio or read the back pages). I think Joba could take a page out of his book. As to his performance issues? I have no idea – how can tendonitis have lingered so long or had such an affect? Is he trying to pace himself too much? AJ gave him good advice, but AJ also came to that knowledge in his 30′s, with more experience behind him. Joba’s just a kid……

  132. Betsy July 1st, 2009 at 8:35 am

    Doreen, you’re exactly right – and I don’t mean to suggest that it should be. However, he needs to take Phil’s innings into consideration as much as he needs to take Brian’s. I like Bruney as a pitcher – I think he’s very important to this pen. I just think Joe needs to think outside the box – everything is so rote with him.

  133. 86w183 July 1st, 2009 at 8:42 am

    Joe mismanaged the pen last night and no amount of rationalizing will change that. He, like too many managers make pitching changes when they CAN rather than when the MUST. Nine pitches isn’t even exercise for Hughes. A second inning was clearly called for and I wrote it on the game threat the moment I saw Bruney out there.

    Pete is completely correct about Joba to this point. Going seven innings twice in 15 starts is the stuff of Walt Terrell and Sidney Ponson, not a top starter. He has to throw more strikes, stop shaking off his catchers who are all clearly smarter than he is and challenge hitters.

    I’m not advicating changing his role, absolutely not but he does need to make changes.

  134. haiku-man July 1st, 2009 at 8:46 am

    Who here doesn’t love Joba? When NY first met him,he was under restrictions on how often he could pitch,off set with day or days off.

    Now that he’s in the rotation,he’s struggling, like,growing pains.The Yankees are in a pennant race,and he’s giving too few innings,causing Joe to task the bull pen more on his pitch days.Joe can keep him in the rotation,as long as the offense comes through for him,but he’s a nail biter now to watch.

    Congrats to the Orioles for their,come from behind win and smacking the RS 11-10. RS lose Yankees win,all is well in the universe.

  135. Doreen July 1st, 2009 at 8:48 am

    Betsy -

    Joe does seem to be sticking to his own plan. :)

    I guess one of the things I always think about with regard to relief pitchers and getting their innings is that you have no way of knowing the next day’s game situation in advance.

    Is it Pettitte tonight? Pettitte could go 5 or he could go 7. If it’s 5, you do one thing; if it’s 7, something different. And it affects the next day. Maybe you hold Phil back yesterday because you want to see if he can do back-to-back days and you know he’ll get an opportunity one way or another.

    I certainly don’t envy Girardi. His job is not simply to field a contending team, but a playoff team. So the balancing act most managers have to do is more pronounced for him. Like resting Alex. Alex is hot now and he’s been very clutch. It will be very difficult to sit that bat down. But he has to do it. So ultimately it has to fall on the players to “pick each other up,” I guess. He has to get Bruney in tip-top shape, or he at least has to know that Bruney is now limited (if he is) by his injury because somewhere down the line that will be extremely important.

    In the moment, I’m not this logical, believe me. But in the clear light of a new day (well, the slightly cloudy gray light of a new day), it’s easier to take the emotions out. :)

  136. charlestonchew July 1st, 2009 at 8:49 am

    Joba’s drop in velocity is significant, sort of. He used to throw a 94mph fastball that could be dialed up to 96 or even 98 in certain situations. Now, he’s throwing it 92 that can sometimes be dialed up to 94. One has to wonder if it is just him being out of shape / the shoulder injury or if it’s the product of something much, much worse like, say, PEDs.

    I don’t want to sit here and accuse Joba of using PEDs, but the thought has to cross your mind when someone loses so much velocity. I personally think it’s just an arm strength issue right now and that next season he’ll regain a lot of that velocity, as well as gaining some after the All Star Break when he’s given time to rest and build strength.

  137. pat July 1st, 2009 at 8:49 am

    If Joba’s perception of what’s happening matched better with what people’s eyes are telling them, fans would be more patient.

    Learning curves are easier to accept if you believe people are learning something no matter how old they are.

  138. Evan July 1st, 2009 at 8:56 am

    We also have only seen Joba flashes of brilliance once – vs. Indians (when the didn’t have Sizemore or Martinez in the lineup). And there was a 12 K game vs. Boston – but oh yeah, that was when he gave up 4 runs to the first 5 batters.

    I agree Joba should be a starter in his career. I also believe our 8th inning relief is our achilles heal. Hughes has been fantastic but is not pitching the 8th yet. Hughes has also show flashes of brilliance several times and has seemed to mature a great deal at the major league level.

    The Yanks made the wrong choice when choosing which of their young studs to move to the pen. Joba used the adrenaline of the situation to motivate him. He was pumping his fists and dominating those innings. Now he comes in and has to use effort to harness his adrenaline. The result: a mediocre pitcher who keeps his team in the game but never gives any length.

    I still believe Joba will be the 8th inning guy once postseason rolls around and therefore, I think he should be the one in that role today. It’s July already and despite a nice 6 game winning trip realize we beat teams under .500.

    Tampa is on our heals – won 7 straight – and despite a Boston collapse last night, they are still a superior team today. The Yanks have a ton of work to do but the pieces in place.

    Time for Joba to stop putzing around in the rotation and get to where he is needed this year.

  139. Chucky P July 1st, 2009 at 8:56 am

    Ummm…. Ronny Cedeno is the only mistake he made. He did make a bunch of hitters look stupid, Griffey especially. Broke alot of bats too. Hit 95, 96 a couple of times in the 5th. Kinda reminds me of Santana a bit. Works consistently in the 91 to 92 range but cranks it up when he has to. Joba’s slider is his “out” pitch and if he works on that change up just a little bit more I think by next year all you naysayers will be eating your negative words. Man, the guys 23, tuff crowd.

  140. haiku-man July 1st, 2009 at 8:57 am

    I forgot to mention, Smoltz was the losing pitcher for his second start (back from the DL)in a row,42 yr old Smoltz.

  141. haiku-man July 1st, 2009 at 9:04 am

    No body hates Joba,just waiting for him to work out his kinks.

  142. Chucky P July 1st, 2009 at 9:04 am

    Clemens went 9 and 4 with a 4.32 ERA his first year starting and 7 and 5 with a 3.29 his second year combining for 35 starts. Hmm….. The AL East was weak by comparison to now…… His third year (see where I am going with this?) he was 24 and 4 with a 2.48 ERA in 33 starts. Now I am not saying that Joba will win 24 next year, but I am saying that 16 to 18 wins and a 3.40 ERA is not too far fetched. If you don’t like that projection go root for a different team.

  143. teddy July 1st, 2009 at 9:05 am

    is not about developmeent anymore joba lost his power fastball. he a fastball pitcher without his fastball. let be honest he doesn’t have ace stuff, nor overpowering stuff

  144. GreenBeret7 July 1st, 2009 at 9:12 am

    haiku-man
    July 1st, 2009 at 8:57 am
    I forgot to mention, Smoltz was the losing pitcher for his second start (back from the DL)in a row,42 yr old Smoltz.

    ————————————————————

    No he wasn’t the loser. He gave up one run in 4 innings. He was pulled after the long rain delay.

  145. Chucky P July 1st, 2009 at 9:15 am

    Sabathia starts games throwing 92 to 93. Fastballs that is. He sometimes hits 97. Sometimes. Buy apparently because he is trying to be a pitcher and not a thrower he no longer has “ace” stuff. That is just non-sense. Tell me how Pedro was so good…. was every pitch 95-97? Or does it have something to do with changing speeds and location to keep hitters off balance. I don’t care how hard you throw, if it’s at a constant speed and straight it is going to get hit hard. Why is Joel Zumaya’s ERA 4.10? The guy throws 104, how is that possible? Go ask Greg Maddux.

  146. Chucky P July 1st, 2009 at 9:19 am

    Conditioning….. C.C. Sabathia, need I say more. Long season, sometimes it’s better to have a little extra “gas” in the tank. Something about leverage and a solid foundation. Out of shape…. that’s funny.

  147. swingsandmisses July 1st, 2009 at 9:20 am

    What’s the evidence that Joba is learning anything? The statistics point to regression from last year. He is getting 6% less swinging strikes.

  148. Chucky P July 1st, 2009 at 9:21 am

    Mariano Rivera was a starter. Not so good. Only see him once a night and he is devastating. No time to adjust to the cutter, no practice swings. Joba has to see batters two, three and soon four times a night. Can serve up the same dish.

  149. CountryClub July 1st, 2009 at 9:22 am

    I agree with most of what Pete wrote. But since when is a 3.89 era in the AL East just ok? If all 5 starters had a 3.89 era for a full season the Yanks would win 100 games easy.

  150. teddy July 1st, 2009 at 9:24 am

    pedro was dominate at 95 to 97 with devasting breking pitches. when pedro velocity whn to 90 to 92 he was alright. pedro finish at 86, he can’t pitch at 86.maddox had sick movement joba fastball is straight

    is not all about velocity, but for joba he a fastbsll with a devasting slider and a plus curve and a decent changee. thats his game. look at morrow how many mistake he got with at 95, can’t always do thst. i not expecting to throw 7 inning, 2 run ball everytime. i didn’texpect to have a e.330 era. i however didn’t expect his velocity at 90 either. what made joba great as a starter last year was to thrown fastball by people, can’t do that now, now there sitting on his breaking stuff

  151. Chucky P July 1st, 2009 at 9:24 am

    Can’t that is…… adjustments in progress. Think of it as feeling it out. On a side note, Cervelli/Molina should catch C.C. and Joba. Posada can catch A.J., Andy and Wang. ERA’s are just better that way. Matsui/Posada is a toss up at DH against right handed starters on the days Jorge doesn’t catch.

  152. Chucky P July 1st, 2009 at 9:29 am

    Does anyone think he hasn’t been told to pace himself? Were gonna need you in the second half? It appears that if the guy can keep the team in the game and has a mid 3′s ERA he is doing his job. I just hope they shut the radar guns off and watch the guy pitch. I bet he hits 95 regularly then…….

  153. Fan Interference July 1st, 2009 at 9:33 am

    Joba was exciting in the pen, where he belongs. Hughes back to the rotation. Have the Yankees been with out top pitching talent for so long, that they don’t know what to do with it now?

  154. Chucky P July 1st, 2009 at 9:37 am

    Did you forget that Hughes was GARBAGE in the rotation? Joba is at least 2 earned runs better per game starting. Hughes is getting the job done in the pen. Oh look he is hitting 96 on the gun…. imagine that, I am only going to pitch one or two innings and my velocity goes up 4-6 mph per fastball. Man, it’s like we’ve never seen this before….. The only guy Hughes may replace is Wang and if that happens it’s because we traded Wang to Philly.

  155. teddy July 1st, 2009 at 9:38 am

    The fastball needs to be 93-96, with the filthy breaking stuff he has, in order for Joba to take the next step.

    yep there sitting on his breaking now because he can’t throw by people

    if joba wants to be a great starter , the rest of will take care of itself. he still atruggle at 93 to 96 at times , but thats ok

  156. teddy July 1st, 2009 at 9:42 am

    for joba to be an above average starter, he needs to let it fly. ain’t happening at 91

  157. Jay Hirsch July 1st, 2009 at 9:51 am

    No matter how good your stuff is if you have no command you will be inconsistent. Joba looks like a deer in headlights on the mound. He is just throwing he has no idea how to pitch. The franchise has finally figured it out and needs to get back in the rotation. Give Joba some tough love and send him back to the minors for to learn to pitch. It did wonders for the melkman.

  158. Al July 1st, 2009 at 10:23 am

    watching joba pitch use to be an event, it’s now a draaaagggggg!! Yanks are so obsessed with developing a stud ace that they are overlooking the fact that Phil Hughes is a better starter than Joba. Hughes is and will be a better starter than joba.

  159. Mitch July 1st, 2009 at 10:40 am

    I don’t care how Joba interviews. i care how he pitches. Right now he is very average. I expected him to be dominant. If he is being coached to hold back to go more innings that is a mistake. He needs to go hard for as long as he can. If he is going hard, and this is all he has, then this is what he is. A serviceable starter that will not be a difference maker.

  160. NIv July 1st, 2009 at 11:03 am

    I hate to say it… I am very puzzled by Joba. I’m a big fan of his. He is a solid starter and that great. He gives the team a chance to win, but definitely not the same guy when he was starting last year before his injury. The way he has been pitching has not gotten me very excited. Wheres the fireballer Joba express? Maybe after this year after he completes the season as a starter, Joba will take the training wheels off and be the pitcher we all want to see him be giving a steady diet of his plus plus fastball. I can’t believe i’m saying this but phil hughes has a better fastball than Joba as a starter this year.

  161. GGBG July 1st, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    Number of times Joba’s given up more than 3 runs this year:

    2

    Number of times Johan Santana’s given up more than 3 runs this year:

    5

    So he does not strike out 10+ guys a game…that’s what he needs to do to be a good starter now?

    He’s a good #3 now. He’ll learn.

  162. Mitch July 1st, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    Number of times Joba’s given up more than 3 runs this year:

    2

    Number of times Johan Santana’s given up more than 3 runs this year:

    5

    So he does not strike out 10+ guys a game…that’s what he needs to do to be a good starter now?

    He’s a good #3 now. He’ll learn.

    ————————————————————
    He’ll learn what? My sole question is, why can’t he throw as hard as he did? 98 to 91 is a big drop. If he’s hurt, fix him. If he’s not, he won’t be a star pitcher

  163. YankWatcher July 1st, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Joba hasn’t really been “good” (meaning that guy in the pen who could pitch in the high nineties and was so fired up all the time) since he hurt his arm last year.

    I agree he is now a bore: an overweight, overrated bore who shakes off too many pitches from catchers who know a hell of a lot better than he does what’s going on. And worse than this, he is a bore who hits lots of opposing batters, which puts our guys at risk.

    Look at the quiet, self assured way in which Phil Hughes has handled himself and the great job he is doing in a role he doesn’t really want, and compare him to this spoiled, supposed “prodigy.”

    The Joba saga (which admittedly will be ongoing for years before resolved one way or another) would not be the first time that a “can’t miss, knock ‘em dead, future hall of fame, yadda yadda yadda” has not panned out the way the pundits predicted.

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