In praise of Junior
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If you’re a fan of baseball history, you had to appreciate watching Ken Griffey Jr. hit a home run at Yankee Stadium last night.
It was No. 621 in his career, 39 shy of Willie Mays. The new Stadium also became the 44th park he has homered in, one short of the record held by Sammy Sosa,
On the clean home run list, Griffey trails only three legends: Aaron, Ruth and Mays. Had Griffey stayed a bit more healthy, yesterday could have been 721. But he’s 39 and aging the way players used to before they sought out Victor Conte and his ilk.
It’s hard to believe, but Griffey has received only one vote in the MVP balloting in the last 11 years and has been an All-Star twice in the last decade. He’s like a cameo of his greatness.
Griffey is a guy that the young players in the clubhouse were thrilled to see, much like Chipper Jones. In a game lacking heroes, those are two players you can respect.
Even Joe Girardi seemed a little tickled to have seen Junior hit one. Back in 1988, Girardi played for Pittsfield (Mass.) in the Eastern League and Griffey was with Vermont. an 18-year-old kid with all the talent in the world.
So if you’re at the Stadium tonight, cheer Griffey. It might be a long long time before we see somebody hit 621 home runs the right away again.
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on Thursday, July 2nd, 2009 at 2:40 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Never been a fan of Griffey. Don’t know why. I just never did.
Can’t overlook his talent, though.
I love yet hate him at the same time.
OT but watching this Mets game can make you question why the Buccos have fans and then it makes you want to throw yourself out the window losing to them if your a Mets fan.
I remember he hit one off Farnsworth last year with the Reds and everyone thought that was his last time vs. the Yanks ever
I know this may be blasphemy to some, but how do we know Junior did it the right way either? Not sure why it should be taken as a face-value assumption that he did.
Pujols is the greatest, to me, and I think he’ll hit at least 621, it’ll be done the right way, and he may well end up the all-time home run leader, too. I never liked Griffey and really didnt like his sour grapes last year after receiving a standing O at Yankee Stadium. The way you guys feel about him is how I feel about Pujols, but I’d bet any amount of money King Albert will pass him in just about everything.
I think declaring Griffey “clean” is a bit presumptuous. Remember when everyone declared how A-Rod would set the “clean” record and erase the taint of Bonds? Both he and Griffey were young phenoms who came to the majors at a young age.
There’s no more reason to declare Griffey clean than anyone else. The only “clean” record would belong to Aaron. Otherwise just have a record without a qualifier.
Who knew Buck Showalter had so many screen names?
If Griffey had just had two whole, healthy seasons in Cincinnati, there’s no telling what he would have done.
IMO, Griffey in his prime >>>>>>>> Bonds.
BBB and Mr. Faded Glory -
I had the same thought and I am not a cynical person. How do we know he’s clean? I’d like to think so. How do we know Pujols is clean? I’d like to think so about him, too.
It’s one subject where I’m a bit jaded. Once Pettitte admitted to HGH, despite his self-described “good intentions” for using them, I pretty much suspect almost everyone. I’m not even sure if I care anymore. And almost no one thought ARod used.
And while we’re not being sure about Griffey, is it okay to also not be 100% sure about Pujols?
One reason for disclosing all the names is to get a little closer to confidence about issues like this.
“I know this may be blasphemy to some, but how do we know Junior did it the right way either? Not sure why it should be taken as a face-value assumption that he did.
Pujols is the greatest, to me, and I think he’ll hit at least 621, it’ll be done the right way, and he may well end up the all-time home run leader, too. I never liked Griffey and really didnt like his sour grapes last year after receiving a standing O at Yankee Stadium. The way you guys feel about him is how I feel about Pujols, but I’d bet any amount of money King Albert will pass him in just about everything.”
How can you question knowing whether or not we know Griffey did it the right way and immediately follow that with “Pujols did it the right way” like even that is some kind of fact? I would believe Pujols used way before I’d believe Griffey did….I doubt either has but you can’t question one for no reason but give the other a pass.
What in the hell makes you think Griffey was clean???
At this point to assume that ANYONE is clean is wishful thinking. It’s very sad to say, but the Griffeys and Pujols’ of the world are just as tainted as everyone else. Some may be clean, and some may not…but we’ve “earned” the right to assume guilty until proven innocent in this case.
are we sure Griffey did it the “right” way? come on.
what is that based on? his body type?
remember…palmeiro, he hit 560 someodd hr’s and took steroids and looked like everyday generic guy.
griffey could have used steroids…who cares…let’s just not praise him for being clean when no one really knows the truth.
We’ll never be completley sure until every player that’s played in this era has retired.
I just kind of stopped caring. It’s too depressing otherwise.
Anyway, this nice post has already turned into some kind of Griffey hating comments sections which is typical…back to what I came in here to say…
I got to see Griffey hit a home run in Baltimore back when he was with the Mariners the first go around and it is still one of my favorite live sports moments. I’d put it up there with seeing Mo come out of the pen live for the first time (also in Baltimore) and the first time I heard Enter Sandman to open up a Hokie football game live…
amen to that pete, its true. last night i was at the game and unsure if i would be going to the game tonight appreciated seeing “the kid” at the plate and being fortunate enough to see him hit a HR. he’s on my list of players i hope i never see on any steroid list.
and as sweeney murti said, it could be the last time we ever see arod and griffey jr hit homeruns in the same game.
To bad there is no clean list, There’s just one list and that’s about it.
No Griffey hate here, Hokiehill. Just pointing out a sad state of baseball affairs.
What part of Chipper Jones are we supposed to respect? The part where he cheated on his wife, or the illegitimate child he sired as a result of that? Wait, I forgot, we’re only supposed to care about A-Rod’s off-the-field exploits.
Yeah, Chipper Jones is a guy we can all really respect, someone our kids can really look up to. Sure he had an 18 month secret affair with a Hooters waitress that produced a baby all while he was married to another woman. But at least he didn’t take steroids (at least we don’t think) and that’s those most important thing of all.
And screw Griffey. He hates the Yankees over some stupid grudge from when he was a child. Has said that he hates coming here, was glad old Yankee Stadium was closing, and we’re the one team he’s said that he would never play for. I will be at the game tonight and will Boo him accordingly.
Rebecca — Once Alex came out I finally decided I couldn’t care either. If the posterchild for clean blood was doing the juice I can’t trust that anyone did it “the right way”.
Another question I tend to think about it this: Today’s ball players take all kinds of workout suppliments and amino acids and protiens that the players of yore simply had no access to. Babe Ruth’s idea of a good supply of protien was hitting the hotdog cart before the game for a couple of chili cheese dogs and a cold brew. Is it unfair to allow the modern player to take advantage of the advances in modern physiology if it enables their bodies to do things before thought impossible? It seems to me like we just have to accept that each successive generation is going to have new ways to be bigger stronger and faster, and what was “clean” in 2009 isn’t remotely similar to what was “clean” in 1919.
To be honest, I never sparked to Griffey as a fan. I know he was a great talent. No doubt there.
However, a player like Kirby Puckett or Vlad Guerrero I loved from afar.
Something about guys like Griffey, Cal Ripken Jr. & George Brett were unlikable to me.
He always seemed just a little too packaged for me. Plus the whole forcing Seattle to trade him thing never felt right.
Reminds me of the negative things that irk some about Arod a bit.
You beat me to the punch, Kevin.
Griffey should be the 1st unanimous Hall of Famer.
I too do not understand why Griffey seems to get a free pass. I know he hasn’t been listed anywhere (i.e. Mitchell Report, etc.) and doesn’t have a cartoonish body a la Sosa, but just because he is obviously naturally talented and seems to be a good guy, why does he always catch a break?
I rather talk about Chapman
I don’t think Pujols has been clean his entire career, might be now but I’ve always questioned him…..it is sad b/c now as a fan if someone looks like a gym rat, you automatically assume he’s been juicing…..people can get big over the years w/o PEDs…some fans do forget that, I gained 20 pounds off of lifting and just whey protein during 1 calendar year
I have to agree with those who are a bit reluctant to simply assume that Griffey was always 100% clean. I’d be disappointed, but not shocked, if his name were to be leaked as one of the positives on the ‘03 list.
This is what the steroids thing has evolved into…nobody is above suspicion.
Rebecca – Will there be a game tonight?
Griffey is a Yankee hater. Great player, but I sure as heck won’t cheer for him.
Releasing the 104 names only tells you the 104 people who were foolish, arrogant or trusting enough to get caught.
The only thing you’ll know about the other 1000 guys was they were either clean, better cheaters or distrusting enough to be clean for the test.
Small m: what AJ has to do with is that he’s a big-ticket pitcher we just signed for 5 years who, according to one view, might diminish the need to do what it takes to land Chapman.
He’s also a particular favorite of yours (if I’m remembering correctly) and you suggested that we were stuffed with pitching; it was an easy connection to make.
Anyway, I can clarify further another time if needed. I just got to where I’m going and need to :shudder: do some work.
“The Yanks can’t be expected to sign every big international FA”
they can be expected (and should) sign the very best ones.
Griffey and Pujoles are the only clean stars left
Baseball needs to build statues of them, let them be honored for playing the game the right way unlike Bonds, A-Roid, Manny etc.
Manson: This is your best source: https://twitter.com/nynjpaweather
I do not like the sound of “isolated tornado”
Griffey has a normal career arc and decline, as did Jones. They did not mysteriously maintain their power like some players did.
But, of course, so many people are bitter and hateful that they can’t even bring themselves to have respect for a great player. It’s sad. Why do you even bother watching sports? Just go outside and kick puppies.
HEY PETE
WILLIE MAYS AND HANK AREN”T ON THE CLEAN HOME RUN LIST YOU F’ing mORON
how many posters are going to have to remind you of this?
“I rather talk about Chapman”
Per Jorge Arangure-
“senior VP Mark Newman in an email to me on whether we can assume they will target Chapman “Safe to assume.” So it begins!”
“On the clean home run list, Griffey trails only three legends: Aaron, Ruth and Mays. ”
How do we know any of these guys were clean to be honest? Obviously the older guys were not on the same steriods as players of the 90s but it’s not like amphetimines weren’t wide spread in baseball at the time. The effects of amphetimines are similar to other PEDS currently banned by baseball and were all over the sport starting in the 40s…
pat: thank you : )
Man oh man Pete get off your high horse. All this BS about steroids is so overblown it’s sickening. You don’t think some guys on that list were taking amphetamines? They were arguably more helpful than steroids.
In every era we’ve seen players try to get a competitive edge. Steroids and HGH is just more out in the open.
As much as it sickens me, Barry Bonds is the home run king. Griffey is great but don’t attack other players in an attempt to prop junior up.
Pete
Griffey is a talented player. A young Junior was fun to watch but…..you as a member of the media can’t play the nothing can be trusted card and then balk when someone isn’t trusted.
How do you know Griffey is clean?
Griffey’s spent about 600 days on the DL over his career.
Almost 4 seasons.
He may have been to HR king.
I guess steroids is not without it’s collateral damage but anything said about Griffey is just speculation.
He’ll be in Cooperstown at the first opportunity.
Pete it goes both ways. Just because people watch sports doesn’t mean they have to participate in drool fests over athletes either. Those kinds are always the ones who get their feelings hurt and are devastated when someone isn’t perfect.
I was @ the game Monday night and it made me sick when Griffey got such a big ovation from the crowd. I appreciate what he did as a baseball fan, but, as a Yankee fan, he caused me far too much anguish. I know most of the fans in Yankee Stadium now are either tourists, bandwagon fans, or too young to remember 1995, but those of us who do will never, ever give Jr. a round of applause in our House.
You know who didn’t have a normal career arc and maintained his power to an old age? The Hammer, a decade after the Chargers started doping. Yep, he sure was clean (and we know he took greenies).
i agree pete,he clean until proven otherwise. griffey the best of this generation
It was also telling of the new type of Yankee fan we see in the Stadium today that Jr. got a round of applause from our section, but most of them didn’t even stand for Rivera when he threw out the first pitch. Awful.
totally off topic but this is a GREAT article about Mariano.
a must read for everyone
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
I am pleasantly surprised to see so many of you wondering aloud how we can presume Ken Griffey Jr. to have done it the right way. And, yes, this is the sickening downside of the steroids era – everyone is a suspect. But, just look back at the incredible list of injuries that Junior has endured during the past decade, and one might wonder: Why did his body break down so quickly and regularly?
Pat,
LOL!! The Yankees, who guard almost every bit of info as its a state secret now has Newman stating publicly, its “safe to assume” they will be in on Chapman!
Code: Its a subtle message through Arangure to Chapman that, “we love you. We really, really love you”. lol
OK…I’m outside.
Where are all the puppies?
let’s just get it out once and for all that there is no such thing as clean or not clean for baseball and the hallowed records…guys were either on roids, amphetimines, used corked bats, spit balls, gambled, were alcoholics, cheated on and/or beat their wives, etc, etc, etc…
CM,
I think that’s why I can’t bring myself to “like” Griffey.
That series in 95 was a killer and left a bad taste. You couldn’t get Griffey and Edgar Martinez out in a big spot in that series for nothing.
I also can’t stand Joey Cora based on that series, lol.
I’m skeptical of Griffey’s cleanliness, but, even moreso of Atlanta’s Larry Jones. He’s hardly the clean, All-America, apple cheeked lad that the media wants to paint him as.
“The effects of amphetamines are similar to other PEDS currently banned by baseball and were all over the sport starting in the 40s…”
Is this true? Sounds bogus to me, but I freely admit I know very little about it. I always thought the “greenies” ban was a bit ridiculous. Do people really think they help players hit for power? I do not believe that.
Obviously Mo is on something. You know, being how he’s still good and everything at almost 40
Agree 100% with HokieHill.
Additionally, things like HGH have never been proven to actually improve performance.
We can look at anecdotal evidence that steroids help but has there ever been a study done to prove it?
now that the crap is out of the way, let me again say, seeing Griffey hit a homerun in person was an awesome event for me…I think it was cool he got to hit one last night. the guy was/is a great player regardless of his alleged cleanliness and aside from a few stupid comments he’s made about NY, I like the guy!
And personally i am getting past the point where I care whether or not some one “cheated” and am enjoying baseball much more for it!
I respect JR’s. talent; however, like Michael Jordan, I have never liked him. It’s not because I think they’re both jerks-I don’t think that at all. It’s because I rooted against him as a Yankee fan…
Amen, Peter. Griffey’s one of the few visiting players (non former Yankees) to ever get a standing O in the old Stadium. Cal Ripken was another. There may be more. Can anyone remember?
For those interested….
Buster Olney is going to be on Kay’s show in a few minutes to talk about Chapman and the Yankees interest in him.
ESPN 1050 AM in NY.
Gimme a break…no one knows if Griffey was juicing or not. The fact that he’s had so many injuries could even lead one to think its MORE likely that he was juicing as it made his joint brittle. Those injuries are the only thing that gives him this “normal career arc and decline” anyway.
And everyone who barks about how “performance enhancers” are wrong is a hypocrite. Hey Pete, don’t you think the 10 red bulls you pound after a 15 inning game enhances your performance to do your job?? Same goes for coffee or any other stimulant. And don’t give me that “steroids are illegal” BS either. HGH and all those other supplements weren’t illegal in baseball or anywhere else except the Olympics until 2004. I can still buy Creatine at GNC! Sure, anabolic roids are illegal and bad…but most guys who have been suspended weren’t caught using that stuff (save Rafael Palmeiro and Manny).
Until someone can prove to me who took stuff and who didn’t, EVERY PLAYER who played from 1990 to 2004 is a product of the STEROID ERA. No one is safe…even your all-american boys Griffey and Chipper (who I both like BTW). Its just like the “dead ball” era of the 60’s where Bob Gibson had a 1.18 ERA…its cuz the freakin mound was 50 feet high!! If you are the greatest of your era, you are great. PERIOD.
You can’t single out some guy just cuz you like him better than guys you think are a-holes. Everyone piles on A-Rod or Bonds but no one cares about Manny or any of the other players who were busted. Hmmm…both A-rod and Bonds are egotistical jerks…wonder why they get scorned but others don’t???
No more “editorial” posts like this Pete. Stick to real baseball talk….that’s why we keep coming back.
I liked it much better when we could all hate Bonds because he was so flagrant about it….
Ah….the good ol’ days.
“And personally i am getting past the point where I care whether or not some one “cheated” and am enjoying baseball much more for it!”
Thats how I feel about it. I never got worked up over Bonds either.
What is a purist in regards to baseball, a sport that has never been pure? There has always been something.
So, honestly, not to be a jerk. What is the last pure era/decade/period of baseball?
@pete
What is this stuff about normal career arc? How is his career arc any more normal than say Rafael Palmeiro’s?
And who says we can’t root for a guy and at the same time admit he probably didn’t take steroids but we have no way of knowing?
I think that is what everyone is objecting to, you’re proclamation that Ken Griffey, Jr. never did steroids can’t be validated or proved. Your opinion is that he is clean, and I agree with that opinion, but that is not a statement of fact.
No thanks – Griffey still holds a grudge against the Yankees since he was a little boy. I find that to be extremely immature. Too bad, because I loved his dad.
Buster will be on with Kay about the Chapman situation.
Can anyone tell me about the kids the Yankees signed? I know nothing about them. Thanks!
“We can look at anecdotal evidence that steroids help but has there ever been a study done to prove it?”
No, there’s no proof that ‘roids or HGH help you hit for power, or hit well for that matter.
Seemed to me like steroids would have helped pitchers more than anybody. Aren’t they supposed to help you recover from a rigorous workload faster?
PETE,
Please read this article: http://stylepointsblog.com/200.....anctimony/
It explain exactly why I, and apparently many others, feel as we do about how so many sports writers, like yourself, have become such moralists in the last couple years when it comes to steroids. You are definitely one of the 106 sports writers this article refers too.
I highly doubt K Griff Jr was clean, besides Nomar, never saw a guy fall apart so quickly. All the tell tale signs of a user. The hip injury today is what the hammy was 6 years ago.
“How can you question knowing whether or not we know Griffey did it the right way and immediately follow that with “Pujols did it the right way” like even that is some kind of fact?”
I didn’t say it was some kind of fact. I would have added “IMO” after, but I thought the use of the words “I think” about 10 words earlier in that sentence made it clear that the entire sentence was my opinion.
I don’t think it’s that much of a matter of opinion that Pujols is a better player though, and I hope the final stats reflect it.
“”I would believe Pujols used way before I’d believe Griffey did….”
Why does everyone feel this way? Why so eager to suspect King Albert? What is it about his greatness that’s so suspicious?
Brian
Al Kaline once got a standing O from the Yankees’ players in the dugout.
Seriously…it happened. I don’t recall the circumstances, but it was after a great defensive play and throw from right field.
Can anyone help out on this?
I will take notes about what Olney says on Kay’s show and post them for those interested.
Griffey is a great player. And so is A-Rod, so were Bonds, Sosa, Clemens and McGwire.
There is only one home run list! Just let it be…
“Griffey has a normal career arc and decline, as did Jones. They did not mysteriously maintain their power like some players did.”
You know who else maintained their power for an abnormally long time? Hank Aaron.
I’m not suggesting he was using, but it’s impossible to decide who was clean and who wasn’t simply by their stats. It’s also not realistic to assume that just because someone played before the late ’90s automatically is clean.
“I’m skeptical of Griffey’s cleanliness, but, even moreso of Atlanta’s Larry Jones. He’s hardly the clean, All-America, apple cheeked lad that the media wants to paint him as.”
I feel the same way. The media has always tried to paint both of them as Mr. Baseball. To me, Pujols is that guy!
“Why does everyone feel this way? Why so eager to suspect King Albert? What is it about his greatness that’s so suspicious? ”
I hate to say it but probably because he’s Dominican.
lol @ praising the cliche.
“He played the right way.”
Pete, if you believe A-Rod wasn’t doing it back then, then I’ll believe Griffey wasn’t doing it back then.
There’s no reason to believe anybody was clean then or now.
MLB can’t detect every substance as you’ve mentioned a few times during your A-Rod steroid coverage.
“But, of course, so many people are bitter ”
Like Griffey Jr being bitter about Billy Martin yelling at him over 25 years ago, for example?
“I will take notes about what Olney says on Kay’s show and post them for those interested. ”
Thanks SJ, I’m not near a radio so this will be helpful
Yanks in on Chapman? Get ready for the “Evil Empire” chants.
I think the Griffey doubt is a normal reaction to what we have witnessed over the last several years.
If you are a person who can give the benefit of the doubt, that’s great. If not, well that’s too bad but I can’t blame you.
When MLB drug testing meets IOC standards, people might be satisfied.
Thanks, SJ
Yeah, Clay. Brilliant, a satirical article by somebody who didn’t even have the courage to put his name to it. Great stuff. You really got me.
“Clean”…facts are, griffey was hitting moon shots in the late 90’s, signs a big contract in Cincinnati, and then proceeds to be sidelined with injuries for the next 7 years. Sounds like a classic PED scenario.
Griffey is my favorite non-yankee of all time, but to classify any player as “clean” is a joke.
What about Frank Thomas? Albert Pujols? Jim Thome? David Ortiz? Can you definitively say one way or the other those guys are on or off the clean list? Was Manny on the clean list this time last summer?
“Code: Its a subtle message through Arangure to Chapman that, “we love you. We really, really love you”. lol”
The yankees just don’t release any information without a purpose.
This is the same organization that has guarded the reason why Jairo Heredia hasn’t pitched all year as if it were a state secret.
They are clearly sending a message and setting a tone.
Olney just said forget Matt Holliday, forget Jason Bay, Chapman will be the most coveted free agent in the winter.
Holy comeback Mets – these days when they are down by more than 2, I just assume they are going to lose
SJ44-
Do you listen to Kay on the internet, or do they actually air the Michael Kay show down in Miami?
“I hate to say it but probably because he’s Dominican.”
Or, for the less race-fueled theory, because he’s GIGANTIC!!
Ralow:
Thanks for the advice. I’ll post whatever I want. Turns out I like baseball.
I’m not so sure if an immature player will do well in the NY market… To be honest, I was not that impressed with him during WBC. Of course, people who have seen him at more occasions might disagree.
PA – “Yeah, Clay. Brilliant, a satirical article by somebody who didn’t even have the courage to put his name to it. Great stuff. You really got me.”
Aw, c’mon, Pete… It is kinda funny. You gotta laugh or you help prove their point.
Olney: Chapman is in the category of player for whom the economic down turn will not affect his bidding price. He compared signing him to the way the Felix will not be affected by the economy when he hits the market in 2011.
Buster Olney taking a page out of the Brian Cashman public relations handbook: “…It’s going to be a process…”
I wouldn’t bet on Pujols being all that clean, either. He wasn’t all that highly thought of before the draft, puts up good numbers in one year in the minors and explodes on the scene in 2001? That means that 30 teams blew it 12 times (a total of 401 times that he was passed on) before the Cards gambled on him.
on amphetimines…
“Greenies, a nickname coined by ballplayers because of the color of the pills, were introduced to the game in the 1940s. These amphetamines speed up the heart rate and have been proven to fight fatigue, increase alertness and sharpen reaction time. Athletes have used them to challenge the limits of endurance — and mask the accompanying pain.”
Sounds like a PED to me…the quote came from this article from 2006…pretty recent considering I don’t recall nearly the same stink being brought up about “greenies” as as been with steroids and other PEDS
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/s....._0402.html
Olney talking about Chapman on Kay’s show….
He’s a LH Steven Strasburg. Plus curveball, fastball and slider.
Might take 6 months to sign him. He will be the most coveted FA on the market, even over ML free agents. Yankees, Red Sox and others will froth over him because he’s that good.
This is a big deal and its going to be a big deal this winter.
There will be a learning curve but, he’s a rare talent.
Some guys are so good, the economy doesn’t affect them from a contract standpoint. Chapman is going to be one of those guys.
Timetable for bidding: 5-6 months. Once he establishes residency in his new country, the bidding will begin. Right in the middle of the free agent season.
That’s it on Chapman from Buster.
The “normal career arc” is that past the age of 34 or 35, your numbers generally start to deteriorate. You don’t hit as many homers, etc. Palmeiro was hitting 40 – 45 home runs after the age of 35, routinely. That’s not a normal career arc. Generally, players will break down with various injuries as well.
Griffey follows the normal career arc because his numbers have been in a slow and steady decline since turning 32, whether it be due to injury or just ineffectiveness, he’s following the trend that players normally took at their age.
Wave,
I listen to Kay’s show on the internet. He doesn’t air down here. His show does air on XM 141 from 4-7.
“Or, for the less race-fueled theory, because he’s GIGANTIC!!”
Well, that is what the justification is every time I’ve heard Frank Thomas accuse of juicing. But that man’s skull has always been gigantic! It didnt grow like Manny’s or Bonds’ which is sooo obvious in both cases if you look at Then and Now pics. Thomas is another one that it irks me how people always question him when there really isnt any huge reason to suspect him. He’s always been the same kind of player, and certain areas in which he was never strong (baserunning, etc) have declined with age, but not at an alarmingly unnatural rate.
But then some people act like it’s blasphemous to even wonder if Junior juiced. Why is it ok to ask questions about one but not another! My no. 1 steroid pet peeve…or actually no. 2. No. 1 is that I have to have a list of steroid pet peeves in the first place!
The Yanks better not spend their discretionary $$ on Chapman while ignoring the offense next year.
It will cost big $$ to replace Damon’s and Matsui’s (yes, Matsui’s) production. Losing Nady has hurt us this year, and we haven’t really fixed it. There’s no guarantee Gardner and Cabrera won’t take a step back. Posada will be another year older.
We can move Hughes to the rotation and save money over Andy, but then both the rotation and the pen will then be shallower. We will have to spend money there as well.
I think Griffey is clean. Only because he suffered so many injuries. If he was on the stuff he would of used them to get back on the field quicker. just like Pettite said he supposedly did. Many athleteds use steroids so they could recover from an injury faster, than if Griffey wasnt clean why wouldnt he do that? Griffey played his heart out every game and hated being hurt, i would think he would have taken stuff to help him.
the funny thing about that article from 06 is that it contains several quotes from the role model that is Chipper Jones regarding the affect banning greenies will have on the game…he seems rather knowledgable on the subject for some odd reason…
“Or, for the less race-fueled theory, because he’s GIGANTIC!!”
Dude I’m not trying to start a racist argument but why doesn’t anyone talk about Adam Dunn, Travis Hafner, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, etc doing steroids? They are all big guys too.
What does Pujols being drafted in the 13th round have anytihng to do with the veracity of the claims of if he’s clean or not? Mike Piazza was drafted in the 62nd round as a favor to Tommy Lasorda. I think his career turned out alright and he was passed over HUNDREDS of times by teams. Teams miss big on prospects all the time, it doesn’t mean Pujols isn’t clean.
CB and I are not overstating Chapman’s importance or the need for the Yankees to sign him.
They will have the money to sign him and I suspect they will go the distance to do so.
Mark Newman wouldn’t even answer an e-mail if that wasn’t the case.
I wouldn’t be shocked if the Yankees went the CC route with him. Make an offer that is so large, it scares teams off and they use their Cuban contacts and PR skills to finalize the deal.
dont know if anyone has posted this yet, Lou Gehrig’s letters
http://espn.go.com/mlb/flash/gehrigletters
“The Yanks better not spend their discretionary $$ on Chapman while ignoring the offense next year.”
Agreed. But I’m not sure who you spend that money on.
Are they sold on either Bay or Holliday? If not where do you spend big money?
It’ll need to be in a trade. I don’t know what big money player in a trade will be.
They need position players. I don’t know if it’ll be big investments to fill those spots if they don’t decide on Holliday or Bay (unless Crawford’s option isn’t picked up)
“Dude I’m not trying to start a racist argument but why doesn’t anyone talk about Adam Dunn, Travis Hafner, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, etc doing steroids? They are all big guys too.”
Because no one thinks of them as we once did Alex, as the clean savior of now tarnished records.
If it makes you feel better, Adam Dunn, Travis Hafner, Frank Thomas and Jim Thome all probably did steroids…
Cano, Posada, Jeter, Tex and Arod. Not a lot of teams have five offensive players of such skill.
If they want, they can bring Damon back for a year. If not, they can find another offensive player, perhaps via trade, to fill the LF void.
There will be a lot of guys on the market that they can plug in on a one year deal.
Who knows, if Jesus Montero keeps hitting like he is, its gonna be tough to keep him in the minors for all of 2010.
I don’t think any offer to Chapman will come at an expense to the parent club.
Patrick – In fairness, people actually do accuse Thomas all the time, citing his large head, but forgetting that it has always been large. But I definitely understand where you are coming from with the mentions of race and racism. I have even heard people insinuate that Pujols is lying about his age (and they use that as evidence why he might have juiced – because he’s “dishonest.” Talk about grasping straws!!) and I can’t think of one single reason someone might accuse Albert of lying about his age, other than the fact that he’s Dominican. Things that make you go hmmm for sure.
BTW, Im tired of people trashing Pete. If u dont like what he post on HIS blog stop going on it.
For the record, I think Jim Thome is guilty as sin and that it’s one of the more obvious cases.
After this season Matsui, Damon and Nady are off the books. That should clear enough money to sign Chapman
After this season the Yanks don’t have many holes. Maybe they need another outfielder. Other than that they will have a lot of money to spend if they want. Just in time to bid for Chapman
The yankees are also going to approach Chapman with the Matsuzaka experience behind them.
They are not going to be surprised by the Red Sox willingness to spend big.
The hot stove season has already started! It’s going to be a doozy.
I’m very surprised Newman answered Arangure’s email. That’s very unusual.
sorry pete…can’t do it.
i played in a national baseball tourney in phoenix back when junior was with the mariners the first time and we went to watch BP one day. a small boy, maybe 10 yrs old, walked toward him with a baseball and said “mr. griffey, will you sign my ball”, junior proceeded to walk right up to the boy, looking him in the eye and say “No.” he punked a 10 year old trying to get his autograph. immediately randy johnson walked up and signed the kids ball and some other guys signed it as well. why did he have to go out of his way to tell the kid “No”? it would have been better just to ignore him.
i will always jeer junior for that one and only instance where i witnessed his interaction. i immediately put him in the same group of superstars with bonds and it has nothing to do with the roids.
G
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:35 pm
***I think Griffey is clean. Only because he suffered so many injuries*** .
If he was on the stuff he would of used them to get back on the field quicker. just like Pettite said he supposedly did. Many athleteds use steroids so they could recover from an injury faster, than if Griffey wasnt clean why wouldnt he do that? Griffey played his heart out every game and hated being hurt, i would think he would have taken stuff to help him.
————————————————————
You mean like Canseco and McGwire?
SJ
You’d know better than I if Newman is a close to the vest kind of guy or more outspoken.
Just reporting what I saw.
Funny, I recall when Griffey left Seattle there was an outpouring of venom from people on the club and in the local media suggesting that his nice guy appearance was all just an act for the cameras.
Maybe he’s changed since then?
game post up
BBB,
I think Pujols gets accused of doing steroids for a few reasons, and it’s not even necessarily racism. The fact is, steroids are easy to get in the DR and a lot of Dominicans have been caught doing steroids.
He also came out of nowhere and has been a freak of nature at the plate since the day he was called up.
I don’t think Pujols has done steroids and frankly I don’t really care. He is the best player in baseball, period. And honestly, nobody is really that close. He is just incredible.
The thing about his age isn’t just because he’s from the DR. He’s always looked a lot older than his official age.
“a small boy, maybe 10 yrs old, walked toward him with a baseball and said “mr. griffey, will you sign my ball”, junior proceeded to walk right up to the boy, looking him in the eye and say “No.” he punked a 10 year old trying to get his autograph.”
If this is true, he’s worse than I thought he was and I don’t think of the guy highly at all.
I haven’t had the pleasure of booing him in person, sadly.
I cant believe Hamilton is 3rd in All Star voting. Hes been injured all year. And why is V-Mart 5th?!!?!?!!
oh, and re: the importance of the Yankees not forgetting to address their offense next year, I agree and at first I liked Marlon Byrd as a solid/cheapish pickup, but I’m a bit put off about all this stuff that’s come out lately about him training with Victor Conte. I think a trade for Adam Dunn is the best answer. I know Washington is asking the world in any deal for him now, but does anyone think their price tag (in talent going back to them) will come down a little over the winter in exchange for the chance to cut $10MM off their payroll for next year? They’ve always been so unreasonable to deal with in the past, but hopefully with new GM things will be different.
NEW POST
Pete,
Wasn’t trying to “get” you. And what does it matter if the guy who wrote it is anonymous? The point is all of you sports writers get on your high horse and judge people for taking steroids, but who the heck are you to judge anyone. Are you perfect? Are all of the sports stars from the past that you put on a pedestal perfect? No. No one is.
I’m sorry your poor home run list is soiled by your standards thanks to guys who took steroids. But do we know whether or not Aaron or Mays or whoever participated in the Amphetamines craze that occurred in baseball for a very long time? Are amphetamines better than steroids? They’re performance enhancing drugs too. Steroids are just the next progression from amphetamines. Technology yielded a more advanced PED and exorbitant player salaries in recent years gave players the ability to afford them. If steroids were available in the 50’s and players made enough money that they could all easily afford them, the steroids era would have occurred then.
So get off your soapbox. You say “Why do you even bother watching sports? Just go outside and kick puppies.” I could say the same thing to you. Why don’t you stop worrying about the players you’ve decided to single out for PED’s (while ignoring the ones who did the equivalent of the past) and just enjoy the game and the tremendous players we get to watch every single day.
All I can say is I’ve long believed Griffey is a dbag and 3 quarters. Steroids or no steroids. I’m glad I do not seem to be alone in that, and the day he retires ringless will be a happy one for me.
Meanwhile, Pujols is Jesus. Just sayin’
Pete —
I agree some of the posts were inane, but why don’t you answer the question that was posed?
How do you know that any athlete of this or any other area is/was clean? You stated it as a fact, but it’s just an opinion that cannot possibly be authenticated. It may be true, but then again it may not be.
As a result a classy, otherwise well written post about an opposing player who’s had a tremendous career turns into a hissing match about who did or didn’t do what.
You further undercut your own article by tying Griffey, by all accounts a tremendous family man to Chipper Jones a noted and documented philanderer who fathered a child out of wedlock while still married.
I have tremendous respect for Griffey as a ballplayer and from all indications he is a good guy, husband and father. I have no idea what substances he has ingested in his life and frankly my dear I don’t give……
Excellent article, Mat. Thanks.
If you aren’t a fan of Griffey, you’re an idiot, plain and simple. Also if he hadn’t gotten hurt so much, he would be going for more than 721. He’d be a lot closer to the real record by now.
Btw, you don’t use steroids and maintain the lean, thin frame that Griffey had most of the career. It just doesn’t happen. You have to look at players heads, necks, forearms, etc. Again, a lot of idiots out there as usual, but you are an idiot if you think Griffey used. Get a clue.
and as sweeney murti said, it could be the last time we ever see arod and griffey jr hit homeruns in the same game.
==========================================================
Well, at Yankee Stadium anyway.
There are still 6 SEA/NYY games to come at Safeco Field this season.
Alex has hit 1 home run there in the past three seasons.
Junior hit 2 there with the Reds in 07 (which got a HUGE standing O and was the beginning of his road “back home”) and he has hit 6 at The Safe so far this season.
Griffey has a normal career arc and decline, as did Jones. They did not mysteriously maintain their power like some players did.
But, of course, so many people are bitter and hateful that they can’t even bring themselves to have respect for a great player. It’s sad. Why do you even bother watching sports? Just go outside and kick puppies.
With all due respect Pete, can you write anything that’s not a put down against anyone who disagrees with you?
Also lets say for example we never knew about Arods positive test. Lets say his hip gets really bad over the next few years and he completely breaks down.
Wouldn’t we all then say, hey he was great in his prime, but the expected injuries after he turned 33 did him in. Just like the case with Griffey.
I do believe Griffey is clean and cheered him at the stadium last year when he hit the home run, but there is only one home run list, and both Griffey and Arod and everyone else who has tested positive for steroids is on it.
“If you aren’t a fan of Griffey, you’re an idiot, plain and simple”
In Communist Russia, post writes you!
I don’t recall who wrote it but I was a very interesting piece about how every era of baseball is tainted in one way or the other and that All-Time lists, while useful are not necessarily representative.
We’ve had dead ball eras and live ball eras which dramatically altered the record books. We had an all white era that lasted until 1947 and was dominant for another 15+ years after that. We’ve had expansion eras, the DH era and tall mound eras, the amthetemine era and the steroid/hgh era.
Baseball needs to get over itself and accept its own flaws and imperfections. After all look at the top of the All time hits list…. a philandering, pep pill popping gambler in first place followed by an avowed racist who intentionally tried to injur opponents with his sharpened spikes.
Kumbaya my friends… Kum – BY – Yaa
Why we hate Junior, he is a classless cry babay;
“My favorite Yankee Stadium memory?” the Reds slugger said last night. “It’s leaving Yankee Stadium.”
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06.....116464.htm
Of course the Yankees have to aggressively pursue a lefty such as Chapman is described to be!
Pete, I think a lot of people do like Griffey and have followed his career and been disappointed that all his injuries took their toll and we’ll never know what he could have produced if he’d been a healthy player.
I just simply think blanket statements about anyone’s “clean-ness” are viewed with some skepticism. I think it’s neat that he and ARod hit homeruns in the same game for the first time in 10 years. I think that it’s great that in spite of all his injuries he’s still being somewhat productive. And I think it’s a neat thing for him to have hit homeruns in so many different ballparks. Most of us aren’t beating up on Griffey. We’ve just been scalded by the steroid era and don’t give the benefit of the doubt easily any more. Probably the best way to handle it is to put some kind of qualifier, because we can’t know for sure. As I said earlier, I hope, but I don’t know. (Hey, blame ARod for that!
)
Heck, I continued to support Barry Bonds among my family and friends for the longest time, and even when it became apparent I was most probably wrong about whether or not he used, I still didn’t like the way he was singled out and supported him in that regard.
Nothing’s black or white anymore. Maybe it never was.
Ken Griffey Jr. has always been one of my favorite players outside of the Yankees roster. He never took PED’s (or so we think), he palys the game hard, and yes, he is somewhat of a crybaby, but he will always be remebered as one of the greatest players ever to take the field.
Another way for pete to take a shot at a rod.
You guys do realize that he has a reason not to like the organization, considering George treated his father like absolute dog excrement during his time with the yankees, right?
Mattingly v Griffey in 95 is still the greatest best of 5 series in baseball history.
Ghost, it would have been even better if the Yankees had a manager in that series.
Yankeeboy98 – And one of the greatest players never to win a ring, right? Cause that’s the first thing people always mention when it comes to A-Rod. It seems to me like yet another one of the 4,345,783 double standards where Junior is concerned. Other players are looked down upon for their ringlessness, or their unclutchiness, or their lack of durability, but Griffey seemingly gets a free pass for all of these things. Not directed at you but it is really frustrating for those of us who dont like him in the first place!
Pujols has got that fat juiced out looking nogging on his neck. Circumstantial evidence, for sure, but I’m just saying. He LOOKS unnatural and so do his numbers. That’s the problem with PED’s though, unless someone tests positive, there’s really no way to know since so many substances evade detection.
It is absurd for Pete to state that Griffey has played his entire career clean; the only person on the planet who actually knows if he was clean is Griffey himself. Now, before anyone goes berserk over this statement, understand that this is not an attempt to bash Griffey, complain about the use of PEDs, or vent jaded feelings over baseball.
My statement is none of those things. It is simply reality. Anyone who tries to guess whether a player is or was clean based on career output, injury history, etc… is simply speculating, and IMHO, that is wrong and irresponsible. No offense Pete, but the only person’s drug use you can comment on, factually, is your own.
Why do my posts not show up? Have I been blocked? I’ve never left a nasty comment… hey, am I talking to myself?
Greg, from sliding into home?
The only thing Griffey’s on now is cheeseburgers. If he’s going to hang around to pad numbers and cash checks, he can at least do a few situps once in awhile.
Maybe the reason my posts aren’t showing up (except for the one above) is that I’m using your full name, Pete, in the quote at the end of my post. Lemme try it this way…
I am not a Griffey hater, but rather an admirer, and I would love to be 100% sure he is clean. (I’m not averse to schadenfreude, however — Manny’s suspension tickled me pink, and Papi’s would be icing)
I would be saddened, disappointed, and even surprised — but not shocked — if Griffey tested positive. He has plenty of points in his favor, such as the natural career arc you mentioned as well as his non-hulklike physique. But we just cannot be even close to sure. Not close. About anyone. Not Jeter, not Pujols, not Griffey. I’ll leave you with a quote:
“If you think any team and/or player was clean from 1990, I’d be very careful.”
-P. Ab–ham, 5/8/09
keith herandez just took a shot at arod loser
wow krod got lucky, he smoked that fastball. they have 1 reliever left and no bench players . mets are in deep bleep.
How do we know fat Albert is clean? How do we know if Pete Abe is clean? The fact is you’d like to think that someone like Griffey did it the right way. He has been a great player for so many years and got unlucky with some injury. Stats kinda lean towards the fact that he didn’t take steroids, but I’d like to think for the sake of the game he didn’t. Also, I don’t know that I could take steroids with my dad in the clubhouse!!!
some injury = some injuries
Babe Ruth had an illegitimate child
I REALLY don’t think Ken Griffey Jr. used steroids.
I don’t like how most fans assume all players are steroid users, but I understand why.
Who won the game tonight? Yeah, that’s what I thought.