Today in The Journal News
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- July
- 2
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He’s rested and mashing. A-Rod went deep and the Yankees beat the Mariners. That’s seven straight.
Eric Hinske is happy to be back in the A.L. East. This notebook also has updates on Ramiro Pena, Jose Molina, A-Rod, Ken Griffey Jr. and Xavier Nady.
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Lots of celebrity deaths lately. The great actor Karl Malden passed away yesterday at 97.
Talk about a career. He played opposite Marlon Brando in On The Waterfront and A Streetcar Named Desire. Then in the ’70s, he was in the terrific television crime drama The Streets of San Francisco with a young Michael Douglas. If you grew up back then, there were a ton of good cop shows and Streets was one of the best.
Malden also played Gen. Omar Bradley in Patton, one of my favorite flicks. He also did an episode of the West Wing late in his life.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Cavs? Pete, keep up the great work. I read this blog everyday with my breakfeast in the morning!
Pete,
Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to call Brian Cashman and ask him if the rumors are true that Aroldis Chapman has defected.
If true, that’s the biggest baseball story of the day.
The next question is, who among Yankee brass will assist Cash in finding his way to NY!
Seriously though, I wouldn’t expect the Yankees to comment on it but, the non-comment he will make could be telling.
Pete, I think you mean the Mariners
Cavs? I think Pete’s got too much LeBron on the brain.
I love Malden, Im a huge West Wing fan, and I’ll always remember his as Father Cavanaugh, and also from his awesome role in Patton.
pete
since the yankees beat the cavs, maybe lebron will come to the knicks!
jonathan
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:25 am
pete
since the yankees beat the cavs, maybe lebron will come to the knicks!
=======
No, since the Yanks beat the Cavs, maybe LeBron will come to the Yankees.
I am SOOOOOO glad a lot of the people here are eating a BIG SERVING of CROW. I called A-Rod’s comeback back in Atlanta and everybody called me an idiot… now look who is the idiot.
I have said this during every losing funk; the Yankees have WAY TOO MUCH TALENT not to be successful this season. They will be going deep into the playoffs this year.
Karl Malden was a great greata actor, he was also in “Gypsie” and played a super heavy bad guy role opposite Steve McQueen in “Nevada Smith”. But his perfromance in “On the Waterfront” as the tough guy Priest was absolutely remarkable…he’s the one who convinces Brando to walk on own two feet to the loading docks after being whacked around by the union mob. What an actor he was. Pete, Thanks for paying tribute to Karl.
Jesus Montero is an absolute MACHINE.
Karl Malden also played a leading role as the key thief in the movie “Hotel”.
WE’RE GOING STREAKING!!! (don’t ban me for the all caps Pete!)
But seriously, I like hearing that Pena is taking this in stride and leaving with his head up high. He did a great job doing his job and is being given a vote of confidence in that the Yankees see him being a future piece of the club, whether that be as a SS down the road or a super utility type player in the near future.
Did anyone see the game? A-Rod had a triple double last night. Lebron couldn’t guard him at all.
In the West Wing, did he play Ziegler’s dad? Or was that someone else? I have all the DVDs, loved the show
nyp_joelsherman: #Yanks-#Mariners matchup tonight: Ichiro best BA (.395) by any LH vs. Sabathia (minimum 20PAs) plus 3 HRs tied with Thome by most by LH.
Glad the Yankees won considering the monster HR Lebron hit last night.
I interviewed Malden for a TV news story long ago when he was in town for a play. What a gentleman. The thing that has always stuck with me is when I asked what he wanted to be remembered for among his various accomplishments in acting. He said, “I hope they say that he did the best with what he had.” A humble guy who was just grateful for the chance to be an actor.
I think the last 10 days or so we all see how important a bullpen is….people say teams can get by with mediocre bullpen, and I think that’s garbage…If you want to be a elite team you MUST have a strong bullpen that’s the place games are won and lost…..With that said I believe Hughes is perfect for the pen…1st he is really a 2 pitch pitcher unlike Joba who can throw 4 pitches…2nd He stuff plays better in the pen, unlike as a starter when he has to face a lineup 3 times over…3nd he seems to have that balanced approach that a reliever needs to have, something Mo has…4th even if Andy leaves we can easily get a 5th starter, remember Wang is under control for 2 more season after this one…..5th Maybe Hughes is what Marl Malancon was supposed to be, come on if we were reading about how Hughes could be a reliever we would all feel different about this….All in all getting a bullpen in order can do wonders for a team…..We get a bigger test in the the next 10 days (Blue Jays, Twins and Angels) lets see how they can handle it
Patton is an all time great film.
RMEL-Don’t give up on Melancon.
get hot, Slang. (in sports and games)
1. to become very effective or successful; score or win repeatedly or easily.
2. The Yankees
3. A-Rod
4. Jesus Montero
“5th Maybe Hughes is what Marl Malancon was supposed to be, come on if we were reading about how Hughes could be a reliever we would all feel different about this”
At least you didn’t say he’s what Marley Marl could have been.
check out this video of Chapman (around the 3:00 mark he gets absolutely filthy):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
He’s definitely raw, but that left arm is LIVE.
“Don’t give up on Melancon.”
Trust me, I’m not but it amazes me that we read all the press clippings and believe it has to be right…I have been following this team for 25 years and the pitching prospects I have read about that have gone no where….I.E. Mark Hutton, Jeff Johnson, Clay Parker, Domingo Jean,Bobby Munoz…all guys at the time that were can’t touch prospects…Mo Rivera was kid that came out of blue and shocked us in the bigs….The point it, I believe Hughes much more then Joba has the stuff to make it in the pen….We all say if we take away his stat line from the 8 run Baltimore game his ERA goes down, Well we can also take away his games against the Rangers…its all even in the end…but tell me this, Next year is Mo last year on his contract and will be 40 years old…would you sign him for 2/3 years in his 40’s or find other closer, but they way check out how many real good closers their are in baseball…
I hope Hinske doesn’t get booed for wearing the great Angel Berroa’s uniform number. (#14 – the body isn’t even cold yet)
Seems like the Yanks would have learned their lesson with L. Hawkins and the #21.
At least you didn’t say he’s what Marley Marl could have been.
Good one..Sorry Mark
Pete,
I have to agree with SJ on this one. Any Chapman information you could dig up from Cashman would be great. This is a big deal if he did and it’s going to make the whole Dice-K situation look relatively tame.
If nothing else the audio of Cash talking about how defection is a “process” would be gold!
RMEL,
Just. Stop. Please?
Now Hughes is more suited to the pen than Joba? They are both STARTING pitchers. End. Of. Story.
Karl as the emasculated long suffering husband (Shooter) to Ann Margret (Melba)in the Cincinati Kid was a good one too. She was hot! And Steve was cool.
RMEL-Aces are more valuable than closers.
The reason you remove the Baltimore game is that it will happen far less than games like the Rangers game will happen.
Hughes and Joba are starting pitchers. They are far more important than bullpen guys, including basically all closers but Mo. I’m not convinced Hughes can be a Mo-like closer not just for a few years but for fourteen. That’s the only way he’d be more valuable as a reliever than a starter.
21 yr old stud lefty just defected from Cuba. He needs some work on his control but his stuff is nasty.
As always, he would be a good sign for the Yanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE0iQmsFSms&
YankeeRay-You’re a little late.
Mollie Sugden, who played Mrs. Slocombe on the long-running Britcom “Are You Being Served?” died last night. She and Mr. Humphries (John Inman) were treasures.
SJ and CB – Everything I have seen indicate that he has defected.
Get Miranda on the horn! Sign Livan and Orlano Hernandez just to make the transition smoother.
Also remember Malden doing those commercials for American Express Travelers checks in the 70s. Some started with ‘You are about to witness a crime”. RIP Karl.
I hope this upcoming Chapman negotiation gets Theo to break another chair or two. I also just read, and this may be old news and have already been discussed, but George Kontos AAA lefty who a lot of people saw as a potential ML reliever, getting TJ surgery. It’s been a bad year for a good number of top Yankees pitching prospects (Garcia, Heredia, Kennedy, Betances on top of Kontos) in terms of health troubles. Frustrating.
just another handle
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:07 am
Karl as the emasculated long suffering husband (Shooter) to Ann Margret (Melba)in the Cincinati Kid was a good one too. She was hot! And Steve was cool.
—–
One of my top 5 movies of all time.
1- West Side Story
2- The Great Escape
3- The Godfather
4- The Cincinnatti Kid
5- Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
What’s with all the TJ surgeries these days?
“I hope Hinske doesn’t get booed for wearing the great Angel Berroa’s uniform number. (#14 – the body isn’t even cold yet)
Seems like the Yanks would have learned their lesson with L. Hawkins and the #21.”
Somehow I don’t think there will be much outcry…
Loved Streets of SF. Malden and Douglas were great but Richard Hatch- ahhhh – a crush of my youth.
I like Alex getting days off and his bat being missing from the line-up on occasion. A good reminder that everyone needs to play rather than wait for someone else to get it done.
A couple of interesting things about Karl Malden I dug up.
His real name was Mladen Sekulovich (Serbian) and he often found ways of working his real name into his character’s dialogue I.E. “Hand me that helmet, Sekulovich” in Patton.
He was married for 70 years!
Like Michael Jackson, he also could call from Gary, Indiana home.
He won the Oscar for supporting role in “A Streetcar Named Desire” which would have swept all the acting categories for that year but “lightweight” Marlon Brando got shut out.
raymagnetic , all due respect stop why….tell me who’s closing games if Mo has pitched 3 or 4 days in a Row this year…Notice that with a solid bullpen you win games while your offense still struggles….Notice we have not be blowing teams out of the water with our offense, leaving a village of people on base…also next year is Hughes our ace?, come on he is our 5th starter at best…If you listen Cashman and Joe i think they are fine about Hughes in the Pen this year and the future…they have to talk about him being a future started just like the Sox said jonathan papelbon was a starter…that quickly ended the following spring…God forbid we take advance from the red sox, they just have been kicking out butts for the last 5 years
Not a fan of West side story (although it has a few great songs). Love the Godfather and Godfather 2.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:08 am
YankeeRay-You’re a little late.
—-
Better late …
The opinion still stands at any time lol
RMEL-Johnathan Papelbon had a shoulder injury.
Name one pitcher besides Papelbon in the great Red Sox organization that was projected to be a GREAT starter and was moved to the pen.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:13 am
Not a fan of West side story (although it has a few great songs). Love the Godfather and Godfather 2.
—-
Great songs and Natalie Wood is an all time fave of mine. Still wonder if she was pushed ?
“If you listen Cashman and Joe i think they are fine about Hughes in the Pen this year and the future…they have to talk about him being a future started just like the Sox said jonathan papelbon was a starter…that quickly ended the following spring…God forbid we take advance from the red sox, they just have been kicking out butts for the last 5 years”
Nowhere have Cashman or Girardi hinted that Phil Yuuse’s future is in the bullpen. He is too good of a pitcher to be in the bullpen his entire career, and he does not have a history of any arm troubles unlike your comparison in Mr. Papelboner who had arm issues during his days as a starter. It’s a YUGE waste of Yuse’s talent and potential to immediately peg him as a late inning reliever when he is best suited to develop as a starter. They will find other answers for the bullpen for 2010 that will not include Phil Yuse.
Everytime I see “West Side Story” I walk around singing “I Feel Pretty” for days. Love the movie though
I do think “I feel Pretty” is one of the worst songs of all time. That song really annoys me.
But “When you’re a jet” and “America” are classics.
@Pete – Cavaliers? (added by Mobile using Mippin)
“Loved Streets of SF. Malden and Douglas were great but Richard Hatch- ahhhh – a crush of my youth.”
Pat – I didn’t realize you were a big Survivor fan. Last I knew Hatch was in federal prison for failure to pay taxes.
(seriously – he was a youth crush?)
I usually get “When You’re a Jet” in my head as well. But I only have the first few lines memorized and after I sing those over and over, I always revert back to “I feel pretty”
When you’re a Jet you’re a Jet all the way
From your first cigarette to your last dying day…
Erica-I know exactly what you mean. The first two lines to “When you’re a jet” and then “I want to live in America” over and over and over…
“The reason you remove the Baltimore game is that it will happen far less than games like the Rangers game will happen.”
Do you have a crystal ball for that info…look at his stats….his career ERA is over 5 runs a game….He looks good in relief and we all think he is going to be throwing 96 mph in the 6th/7th innings of games he starts…by the way his he better then CC, AJ, Joba and Wong….lets not down on him he has been a 19 game winner twice and is only 29….Hughes is a 5th starter next year and maybe a 3/4 in 3 years…only has 2 pitches people, and when he throws a change up it get hammered
RMEL-I say that genius because he had two starts that were shutouts (3 with the first Rangers game) and one Baltimore game..his stats are not much different than other young pitchers and certainly better than Roy Haladay, who had an ERA of 10 his first season.
He throws from 92 to 94 as starter, more than good enough…STARTERS ARE MORE VALUABLE THAN RELIEVERS.
RMEL-Can you use a crystal ball and tell me that he will be as good as Mo in the pen? I bet no.
Hughes also throws a cutter now, and he has modified his curveball to the point where he could potentially throw a slower, big looping curve combined with more of a harder slider/curve hybrid that Burnett taught him. His changeup is a hit or miss pitch that he is still not confident in, but once he’s back to starting he will be working on refining it and working it in to the repertoire. So by my count that is the potential to have 4-5 pitches at his disposal. But, of course, it’s more important to have him keep throwing 95 in the 6th inning of games, not to develop into a rotation stalwart starting next year.
Good grief.
Hughes will be in the starting rotation full time next season. Period. End of story.
The organization has no intention of leaving Hughes in the bullpen beyond this season. He’s there because it’s a temporary need. Just like Joba in 2007.
Don’t let a small sample size in the bullpen cloud your judgment.
The Red Sox have been “kicking the Yankees butts for 5 years”….Really?
The teams have played relatively even until this year.
Geez, stop with the overreaction.
The Yanks should sign Chapman, and then immediately have him undergo Tommy John surgery.
He’ll come back throwing 110 mph!
RMEL July 2nd, 2009 at 10:21 am
“The reason you remove the Baltimore game is that it will happen far less than games like the Rangers game will happen.”
Do you have a crystal ball for that info…look at his stats….his career ERA is over 5 runs a game….He looks good in relief and we all think he is going to be throwing 96 mph in the 6th/7th innings of games he starts…by the way his he better then CC, AJ, Joba and Wong….lets not down on him he has been a 19 game winner twice and is only 29….Hughes is a 5th starter next year and maybe a 3/4 in 3 years…only has 2 pitches people, and when he throws a change up it get hammered
——————————————
HE IS 23 YEARS OLD.
West Side Story
Song: “Somewhere.” (There’s a place for us….)
I believe that some of the movie’s exterior shots were made in the old San Juan Hill section of NYC’s West Side, around present day Lincoln Center. Urban renewal knocked a large portion of that area down to make way for the performing arts center, opera, NYS Theater, etc. Eerie feel to the movie’s setting because of the nearly abandoned state of the neighborhood at the time of shooting.
Guys get the facts straight please, Papelbon was moved into the pen because Keith Fouke was garbage in spring training 2006….not because of shoulder problems….they realized how important a bullpen is….Something this organization is understanding again….Kyle Fansworth will not cut it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Papelbon
The Red Sox haven’t even won a season series from the Yanks since 2003.
I fail to grasp where exactly the Sox have kicked the Yanks’ butt the last 5 years.
RMEL-Wikipedia should get the facts straight. I gurantee they are wrong.
“Erica – newly OPPC
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:17 am
Everytime I see “West Side Story” I walk around singing “I Feel Pretty” for days. Love the movie though”
I hear ya Erica. It’s a catchy tune.
Now I only sing that song when I’m riding in the car with Jack. And then of course, I only use my Dracula voice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmv3WlKa6U8
Pete a little trivia for ya:
Malden was also one of the original hosts of “Unsolved Mysteries” prior to the late Robert Stack taking over in 1988. Malden hosted two episodes of the series in 1987 & 1988.
Kinda OT: Anyone remember the segment “Unsolved Mysteries” did about the guy who made off with a ton of baseball memorabilia including Babe Ruth’s jersey, Pete Rose’s silver bat etc. I don’t believe they ever managed to catch that guy.
Wikipedia is not an accurate site for info.
Papelbon was moved to the bullpen because of shoulder issues.
It had nothing to do with Keith Foulke.
Can’t mommy send you to camp or something now that school is out? There has to be a better place for you to go than to spew nonsense on here.
RMEL you are flat out wrong about Papelbon. He has had shoulder issues his entire career, even in the 7th game of the ALCS last year, when he was not available to close because his shoulder was fatigued.
He missed time in ‘06 with the shoulder (which you can read about in this story linked below) even after the genius Red Sox realized how important the bullpen was and put him there (not that they worried he would fully blow his arm out throwing 100+ innings).
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/n.....p;c_id=bos
Get YOUR facts straight, brother.
SJ44-Actually I believe mythbusters tested wikipedia and it turned out to be no more inaccurate overall than other resources. They are wrong there though.
murphydog
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:28 am
West Side Story
Song: “Somewhere.” (There’s a place for us….)
——
That was one of my wedding songs.
Gotta like Maria and Around the Corner as 2 other good songs from the movie.
How hot was Anita in the roof top scene?
“Papelbon was moved to the bullpen because of shoulder issues.”
Correct, independent of the fact that Foulke was garbage
Wang IS Taiwan — Thanks for an awesome story. He was a great actor and apparently a good man too.
I get overexcited about young players in our system and especially potential IFAs because that’s where the Yankees can see the highest ceiling talent. Last year I fell in love with the legend of Yu Darvish. Watching him and Chapman pitch in the WBC was awesome and I won’t get ahead of myself thinking about CC-Joba-Chapman-AJ but like the NY Lottery commercial says, “Hey you never know.”
I’m looking for a little Phil Hughes tonight, my first prospect man-crush.
Some of you worry way too much about 2010. Let this year take care of this year and we’ll deal with 2010 when it comes.
That’s not the same as motgaging the future for this year. But there is so much vonersation about inning limits and maximums that may not ever matter.
SJ — Going back to the last thread. I am surprised you have no concerns at all about Hughes throwing three days in a row for the first time or Coke possibly being overused. Girardi generally has been far superior to Torre in using his entire bullpen, but the past couple of days puts him in a tough position for tonight. Could use a blowout… then they could even use Berroa oops I meant Tomko.
To all…Who is closing games After 2010..better yet who is closing games if Mo pitches 3 days in a Row this year…Bruney…you guy were killing him last night and now you have confidence in him, please….When Mo’s contract is up after 2010…Did we clone Mo and will let him loose in 2011? We can trade for Heath Bell or Mike Capps…..Maybe Brian Wilson (not of the beach boys fame)….ask the Angels how important a closer is now K-Rod is gone…If Hughes has the ability keep him there…We do have other young pitchers that can be a 5th starter…I.E. Z-Mac, Ivan Nova and Jeremy Bleich
DT – OPPC member (it’s in our blood)
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:31 am
I hear ya Erica. It’s a catchy tune.
Now I only sing that song when I’m riding in the car with Jack. And then of course, I only use my Dracula voice.
***
I completely forgot about that scene. How did Jack shoot it without laughing? Talent. Thats how
“One Hand, One Heart” (which we used at the wedding ceremony in church) and “Something’s Coming.” “Something’s Coming” is just a great song – the orchestration so matches the mood of the song. The entire score is briliant. I agree that “I Feel Pretty” is not the best song from the show, but within the show it’s great counterpoint to the overall tragic overtones.
But how did the conversation get to “West Side Story?” i thought Karl Malden was in “Gypsy?” Another great American Musical. He made a very good Herbie in that movie.
If there are any fans of the British comedy “Are You Being Served?” then you may have missed that Mollie Sugden who played Mrs Slocombe also died yesterday.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvs.....es-86.html
RMEL-Answer this since you’re asking all these questions: What is more valuable, an Ace or a closer?
Not a Mo, a closer. There is only one Mo.
An Ace is far, far more valuable. The Rays are in the race because of their Ace Garza. They have no closer.
Is that a weakness? Sure. But far less a weakness if Garza was moved to the pen to close out games they wouldn’t lead anyway.
I believe the first season Papelbon closed, the Red Sox insisted the whole season that he would start the following year. Papelbon came to spring training as a starter and was extremely uncomfortable. He told the team he wanted to remain the closer.
RMEL,
Worry about who the closer is when Mo retires.
No guarantee he even retires after the 2010 season, which means trying to the find his heir apparent in the middle of 2009 is a complete waste of time.
If they need a closer, they’ll get one. They don’t need to find one now.
Kind of a sad story, but it seems Jim Leyritz was arrested this morning on a battery charge.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ne.....;type=lgns
86,
Hughes didn’t throw last night. We don’t even know how much he warmed up and he wasn’t used in the game.
He only threw 9 pitches Tuesday night and had a day off on Monday. He isn’t being overused.
If they want to be careful with Coke today, I can see that.
Hughes? He hasn’t been abused at all.
You know who is closing games after 2010? Mo, until he either doesn’t want to play or he shows he can no longer do it. Two things that haven’t happened yet.
You don’t need to prep a closer for 2011 in 2009. No team in baseball does that.
One of the most remarkable part of buzz about Hughes success in the pen is how guys like Madden just won’t change their world view at all.
They still think that pitching out of the bull pen – and the 8th inning in particular – is like some feat of magic that only the chosen few are capable of.
It’s amazing- because we’re seeing an almost exact repeat of all the nonsense with Joba.
Joba’s never thrown out of the pen. He moves to the pen and dominates. Instead of seeing that it’s just inherently much, much easier to be a successful reliever people attribute some magic 8th inniningness quality to Joba.
Now Hughes is lights out in the pen. But again, instead of seeing how a talented starter is going to be likely even better in the pen because the role is easier people fall back on the idea that Hughes can only do this because he’s got that secret 8th inning characteristic as well.
Both he and Joba just happened to have the “mindset,” etc, etc.
Just amazing.
Doreen
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:39 am
“One Hand, One Heart” (which we used at the wedding ceremony in church) and “Something’s Coming.” “Something’s Coming” is just a great song – the orchestration so matches the mood of the song. The entire score is briliant. I agree that “I Feel Pretty” is not the best song from the show, but within the show it’s great counterpoint to the overall tragic overtones.
But how did the conversation get to “West Side Story?” i thought Karl Malden was in “Gypsy?” Another great American Musical. He made a very good Herbie in that movie.
——
Thanks Doreen as I had said Around the Corner when I knew it was Somethings Coming. One hand One heart was the other song I used in my wedding.
The WSS talk came when someone mentioned Maldens role in Cincinnatti Kid and I said it was one of my top 5 movies starting with WSS. See above.
I am taking off for a while- I see you all around game time.
Try not to work too hard
OUR house — I am in total agreement with you that starting pitching is more important than relief pitching. I’ve argued here for 2 years that the role of closer is a bit overrated by the modern baseball fan. However, it’s near impossible to convince anybody of that.
Obviously Mariano is the exception to that rule. He’s a once in a lifetime pitcher though. Given the choice on who to start MY team with though between say K-Rod or like you said Matt Garza, it’s not really even close.
Jayson Stark wrote an article 2 years ago about Papelbon and which would be easier for his shoulder to handle, being a closer or being a starting pitcher. In the end, they ultimately decided being in the bullpen was healthier for his shoulder.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=2775040
“I completely forgot about that scene. How did Jack shoot it without laughing? Talent. Thats how”
Erica – Jack can act. He’s more than a Laker girl.
That scene would work in a parallel Yankee universe too.
Picture Cashman in the Sandler role and Hank Steiny in the Nicholson role.
Rob NY-Exactly. We agree.
Erica
I saw that too but I don’t see why it’s sad. Leyritz is clearly a dirtbag.
“How hot was Anita in the roof top scene?”
Really hot. My wife is a Proud Puerto Rican (PPR) and looks a little like a younger Rita Moreno. (Yes. I’m a lucky man).
Moreno gave an amazing comedic performance in The Ritz (1976) as Googie Gomez, a third rate singer looking for a producer in a story that involves mistaken idenity, possible mob hits and love all taking place in a gay bath house. Trust me, Moreno is hilariously insane as Gomez. (She was nominated for a Golden Globe).
Yankee Ray -
Thanks for clearing up the thread of the conversation – I’ve been back and forth and sometimes in skimming you miss a lot!
“Around the corner, or whistling down the river, come on, deliver to me!” Great line.
Erica – newly OPPC
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:17 am
Everytime I see “West Side Story” I walk around singing “I Feel Pretty” for days. Love the movie though
————————————————————
I read your post without reading your name. My only thought was “Brandon, why would you post something like that.”
Few things Giuseppe Franco, Totally respect for you as a blogger but 2 world series rings in 5 years equals kicking our butts
second you are right about Papelbon…he did have shoulder problems THE END OF HIS 1ST YEAR AS A CLOSER….he was left in the bullpen at the START of spring training after Foulke pretty much Foulke-up the place….Papelbon was healthy and went back into the pen and he got shoulder tiredness at the end of his 1st year as a full time closer…please people know what you are talking about
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn.....ons/060621
Patrick
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:48 am
Erica
I saw that too but I don’t see why it’s sad. Leyritz is clearly a dirtbag.
****
I think its sad because as a 14 year old in 1995 and a 15 year old girl in 1996, I thought the guy was a hero.
I guess its just a reminder how human these guys actually are, and makes me wonder how many children are out these looking up to false role models.
CB,
Yeah it’s pretty hilarious how the media treats the 8th inning. It’s even more funny because prior to moving to the bullpen most sportswriters agreed that Hughes’ stuff wouldn’t translate well to the bullpen and that his demeanor isn’t that of a set-up man or closer.
Doreen
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:48 am
Yankee Ray -
Thanks for clearing up the thread of the conversation – I’ve been back and forth and sometimes in skimming you miss a lot!
“Around the corner, or whistling down the river, come on, deliver to me!” Great line.
—-
Of course I bring it back to baseball, “Catch the Moon, one handed catch”
You are asking people to “know what they are talking about” when you clearly don’t?
That’s pretty funny! lol
GB7-
Did it make a lot more sense when you realized it was me? (Keep in mind, I confessed to you all last night that I own a rain jacket with butterlies)
Although, I can totally picture Brandon singing and dancing to “I Feel Pretty” now that you mention it
Of course Phil looks good in the bullpen, he’s a good pitcher. He won’t be there next season, because next season, he’ll have the Golden Ticket.
I think I’ve got it right (and Doreen will probably back me up), Papelbon was moved to the bullpen because of the shoulder issues. They were going to make him a starter (so they say), but he never left the bullpen because of Foulke’s injury. Correct?
And stop talking about Chapman! You guys are setting me up for disappointment!
But seriously, why wouldn’t you want to play for the Yankees? And do the Chicago White Sox really have a Cuban pipeline?
RMEL,
of course Papelbon was the PERFECT fit for the Boston bullpen, but they ONLY moved him there because they felt
throwing 100 pitches would put too much wear on his shoulder and it would likely dislocate again. Which is why they had him strengthen his shoulder that entire off-season and they decided not to even tempt fate and just put him in the closer role, where he wouldn’t throw more than 30 pitches a night usually. Which puts less strain on the joint, which is what they wanted. They killed two birds with one stone; they kept Papelbum’s shoulder safe and they got their closer for the next decade.
I work with a girl who was dating Leyritz for a long time here in So Fla. She got me a signed photo from him addressed personally to me about a Month before his accident.
Not hanging in my office anymore.
Papelbon moved to the closer role at the end of his innings limit, had shoulder issues, and decided to stay there.
Yeah RMEL is correct. Papelbon went to the bullpen because they needed a closer but the intent was always to put him back into the starting rotation. In the offseason after his first year closing they realized his shoulder was screwed up and decided to keep him in the pen.
You are delusional if you think that Papelbon’s shoulder did not influence his career path more than Keith Foulke’s performance and Boston just always knowing more than the Yankees and making better decisions and being run by geniuses who have the golden touch.
The geniuses with their 2 World Series rings that have been “kicking our butts” wanted Papelbon to be a starter, they knew he was more valuable as a starter, but they also decided that it would be too risky to start him and have him come up lame/lose him for good.
Patrick-Yeah, exactly.
RMEL July 2nd, 2009 at 10:49 am
Few things Giuseppe Franco, Totally respect for you as a blogger but 2 world series rings in 5 years equals kicking our butts
————-
Here’s a little advice. Don’t live and die everyday caring about what the Red Sox are doing or have done the last few years.
All I know is the Yanks have 26 rings and no other organization in sports is even close.
Obsessing about the Red Sox will erase years off your life expectancy and it makes you sound like a Sox fan pre-2004.
The Rays are arguably the hottest team in baseball and are coming on like gangbusters. They are clearly one of the 5 best teams in baseball.
Randy Choate is their closer.
“RMEL-Answer this since you’re asking all these questions: What is more valuable, an Ace or a closer?
Not a Mo, a closer. There is only one Mo.
An Ace is far, far more valuable. The Rays are in the race because of their Ace Garza. They have no closer.
Is that a weakness? Sure. But far less a weakness if Garza was moved to the pen to close out games they wouldn’t lead anyway.”
Ace but we have a few already…CC and AJ…Wang was our Ace last year we need not to forget that and was still consider a ace up to the end of Spring training and Joba and his 4 pitches have the ability…The rays have no real aces come on…there a team of 4 solid mid rotation pitchers…no real ace
Wait,
The decision was made for him. He was quite upset when they told him that he wouldn’t be starting after all.
Just because some of the media outside of former players write about baseball, it doesn’t mean they know about baseball than most knowledgeable fans. IMO, most of the baseball writers I have little respect for in regard to their baseball opinions. Their main function to me is information while I take most of their opinions with large grain of salt.
The situation with Papelbon is the same situation with Joba. He’s a starter until something happens that dictates he can’t be a starter anymore.
Having a shoulder injury and the Yankees deciding Joba’s arm can’t handle starting is the ONLY way he’ll ever go back to the bullpen.
Just like Papelbon’s subluxation of the shoulder was the ONLY reason he stayed in the bullpen
RMEL-Garza ia an Ace.
We may have an Ace, butthe more the better. A pair of aces is better than 1. I’m hoping for four of a kind when Hughes works out.
By the way, since the Rays lost yesterday we’re hotter than the Rays.
m -
That is correct.
At the time, I got a chance to listen to the morning baseball show on XM every day and I clearly remember that particular turn of events being discussed. It was such an about-face when they moved Papelbon back to the pen.
DT
Survivor? I believe we would be referring to 2 different Hatch’s.
m-Really? I heard he wanted to close.
“All I know is the Yanks have 26 rings and no other organization in sports is even close”
….The Canadiens have won 24 Stanley Cups, does hockey still count as a sport in America?
“I saw that too but I don’t see why it’s sad. Leyritz is clearly a dirtbag.”
Bernie Madoff is a dirt bag. Leyritz is a blue collar guy who achieved beyond his abilities and lived large while he had the money. My best guess is that this is always who Leyritz was. Bars and church basements are full of these folks. As a guy like this gets older, he runs out of money, friends and second chances. He’s had a helluva fall.
RMEL July 2nd, 2009 at 10:49 am
Few things Giuseppe Franco, Totally respect for you as a blogger but 2 world series rings in 5 years equals kicking our butts
————-
Here’s a little advice. Don’t live and die everyday caring about what the Red Sox are doing or have done the last few years.
All I know is the Yanks have 26 rings and no other organization in sports is even close.
Obsessing about the Red Sox will erase years off your life expectancy and it makes you sound like a Sox fan pre-2004.
wesome post and following this team for 25 years, it kind of hard to see what the Red Sox having been doing the past 5 years….lets get back to winning some rings and soon
Just for the record, Hughes started warming in the top of the eighth inning last night, and sat down immediately after the Mariners made the last out in the top of the eighth. He did not get up again that I saw.
CB actually JP Howell has been getting all/most of the save opportunites lately for the Rays and has done a decent job. But yeah the point is, they aren’t putting David Price back in the bullpen even with it in a state of shambles (see: using Jason Isringhausen until his arm exploded, and featuring Randy Choate in high-leverage situations, plus Grant Balfour turning back into the pumpkin).
m – they may have a pipeline but we have …wait for it… George Costanza!!
Steinbrenner: “George there’s a southpaw down there nobody’s been able to get a look at…”
Castro: “I understand you are interested in one of our players si? You can have your pick, they will play for your Yankees!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCx3fG-MIpg
m –
Papelbon was upset he wasn’t going to start. But a couple of days later, an entirely different spin was put on it, trying to erase that particular fact. They forget there are people who actually listen and read as things are going on.
(And some of us even remember such trivia!)
“rior to moving to the bullpen most sportswriters agreed that Hughes’ stuff wouldn’t translate well to the bullpen and that his demeanor isn’t that of a set-up man or closer.”
Very true. Hughes was the wilting lilly out on the mound. How could he ever handle the frightening, insurmountable task of pitching the 8th inning?
The Joba and Phil thing is really amazing. Because with Joba ok if you want to believe that the 8th inning is magic ok it’s one occurrence.
But for this to happen twice – well that’s either a huge coincidence given how daunting the 8th inning is purported to be or it’s just not nearly as challenging to throw out of the pen.
Yet people will stick with this idea that the pen requires super human powers to pitch successfully from.
And another thing on this is how this small myth is being made up that Hughes was terrible as a starter and then went to the pen and was transformed.
That’s just false. He had several good to very good starts after the balitimore meltdown prior to ever even going to the pen.
Hughes was pitching very well as a starter before even going to pen.
Sure he’s been lights out but that’s largely because he’s talented, was pitching well as a starter, and he only has to throw one inning at a time.
Ramey is 100% correct about Papelbon.
RMEL-Garza ia an Ace.
Close but not there yet…Close
Andrew:
Seems like a committee with Howell as the leader. Choate has picked up 4 saves the past month. All less than an inning, so I imagine they bring him in if a tough lefty or two are coing up.
Of course the shoulder issue is the main reason for Papelbon’s place.
I think they were seriously giving it a thought to make him a starter. But happenstance derailed that. But before they knew it, they had the perfect closer. They weren’t going to pull the plug on that because 1. they didn’t have a better solution 2. shoulder issues.
All I know is that Papelbon obssesses about his contract talks. He wants Rivera money. So, given the choice, I think he’d rather be a starter because then (in his mind), he could get CC & Santana money.
But he’ll never get mo money or even pitch as long. No way he holds up that long. We’ve already seen signs of ineffectiveness from Papelbon. Terrible timing for him, as he was ready to take the mantle of Greatest Closer of All Time.
Boston Dave,
Thank you haha
CB,
Its all about the fist pump. If you show emotion, you can “handle” the 8th inning, according to many fans and media.
I also seem to remember Paplebon going on and on about the salary differences between starters and closers as another reason why he wanted to be a starter…
RMEL:
CC stats: 109 innings, 3.55 ERA 2009.
Garza stats: 104 innings, 3.45 ERA 2009.
If CC’s an ace, Garza is.
“JP Howell has been getting all/most of the save opportunites lately for the Rays and has done a decent job. But yeah the point is, they aren’t putting David Price back in the bullpen even with it in a state of shambles”
You’re right. They’re mixing and matching but I forgot they’ve been going with Howell now.
Either way the point stands. They are one of the hottest and best teams in baseball and JP Howell is their closer and Randy Choate is one of their Key 8th inning set up guys.
murphdog,
Sorry I just don’t agree about Leyritz. He gets drunk, drives his car and kills someone. If that was a one time thing I understand; it’s a mistake and everyone makes mistakes. But now he’s arrested for battery? This is clearly a bad guy.
Its all about the fist pump. If you show emotion, you can “handle” the 8th inning, according to many fans and media.
sad but true to many
“Its all about the fist pump. If you show emotion, you can “handle” the 8th inning, according to many fans and media. ”
Haha and the funniest part is, the best closer of all time shows the least emotion of any pitcher I’ve ever seen when he’s on the mound.
The bottom line is, your average sportswriter hugely overrates the importance and skills of an 8th inning pitcher.
Amazing that Choate has still been gettin saves. I thought Howell totally supplanted him, plus I figured that Randy would have imploded by now. But that day is still coming, maybe by then the Rays will have seen the flaws in their logic of team-building and will realize that David Price is too valuable pitching the 8th or 9th inning so forget turning him into a frontline starter, it’s back to the ‘pen time
I base a ace for doing over a period of time Garza is not there yet, you can say Scott Kamir was their ace last year…you have to do it for a few years i believe
Wait,
Spring Training (whatever year it was), we (at least Doreen and I) saw Papelbon espn video. Livid when he found out he wouldn’t start. espn.com had an article and everything. This is am eastern time.
So later, I go back to look for it, but GASP! espn had sanitized the article and Papelbon was singing a different tune the very next day, “I always wanted to be a closer”. Like the freaking G-men came in and made it never happen.
That’s why Doreen and I get a kick out of it. We both saw the truth before they clicked the magic pen (ala men in black).
There are conflicting reports about the battery charge this morning.
One of their children interviewed by the cops said their mom was drunk and she did harm to herself, as she has done in the past (according to the child) to “get back at” Leyritz because he’s trying to get her out of their shared home.
They have been a War of Worlds couple for ages.
Whatever the truth is, its a bad, bad story all around. Especially for the kids.
Anybody know anything about Dominican catcher Gary Sanchez that the Yankees just signed?
And word on the street from baseballprospectus is that the Yankees are also looking like they’re going to be signing shortstop Damian Arredondo and pitcher Jose Osuna.
http://www.baseballprospectus......ed/?p=1327
“Amazing that Choate has still been gettin saves. I thought Howell totally supplanted him”
——-
Howell is the clear closer right now, not Choate.
m-Really? That is too funny.
“Its all about the fist pump. If you show emotion, you can “handle” the 8th inning, according to many fans and media.”
One day baseball fans are going to look back at this era of bull pen hyperspecialization and be puzzled with what people were thinking.
It’s one inning. How hard is it to throw one inning?
How can people lose sight of this?
Just because Jose Veras or Kyle Farnsworth, etc. cannot do it that does not mean that the role is daunting or that it’s magic to pitch out of the pen.
It just means that Veras and Farnsworth are amazingly bad pitchers and on the whole it’s just very difficult to find any good pitchers.
Maybe I’m jumping the gun a little with Leyritz. I’ll only say this, it’s not bad luck or a mistake when trouble follows you around. When you see someone repeatedly getting into trouble with the law there is a problem with that person’s behavior.
RMEL-Regardless, the point stands. Garza as their closer would help them far less than Garza as their best pitcher.
m -
Thank goodness we have each other on this, because we’d individually be accused of being totally nuts!
“it’s just very difficult to find any good pitchers”
That’s pretty much it. Good pitchers are good in pretty much every role. Bad pitchers are, well, bad. Phil Hughes is a good pitcher, of course he’ll be good in the bullpen.
CB-I will say this: The closer role is supposedly very tough. Eveyrthing I’ve heard, and what I’ve seen on that new show The Pen about the Philly pen, makes it seem like you need something different and special to close.
BTW I just find this amazing.
Montero in AA: 4 home runs vs. 6 strike outs.
m
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:09 am
Wait,
Spring Training (whatever year it was), we (at least Doreen and I) saw Papelbon espn video. Livid when he found out he wouldn’t start. espn.com had an article and everything. This is am eastern time.
So later, I go back to look for it, but GASP! espn had sanitized the article and Papelbon was singing a different tune the very next day, “I always wanted to be a closer”. Like the freaking G-men came in and made it never happen.
That’s why Doreen and I get a kick out of it. We both saw the truth before they clicked the magic pen (ala men in black).
——————————————
Trying to follow along and work at the same time – but I 100% remember this, too
Ahh also I wouldn’t say that Kazmir was the Rays’ ace last year. That was clearly James Shields.
This year Shields and Garza are equally pretty awesome. Nice 1-2 punch right there.
Montero is a beast. He’s becoming my new favorite prospect.
When I was growing up I don’t remember people worrying if pitchers could “handle” the eighth inning. But then, people didn’t worry if relievers could “handle” the ninth inning either – a good reliever was just expected to finish the game.
If you think pitching the ninth inning requires special mental toughness, then I guess it’s a natural progression to start believing the eighth inning does as well – maybe a little less than the ninth but still more than the normal amount.
Pretty soon we’ll be agonizing over whether a reliever has the right stuff to pitch in the sixth inning. Just wait and see.
Doreen,
I was just going to tell you that we may be the only 2 people in the world to see this, but look. Rishi confirms!
lol.
Montero is pretty incredible. He has adapted to AA a lot faster than anyone thought. Going from A ball to AA is the biggest jump in minors. The gap in talent between those two levels is huge. Montero is proving to be an elite prospect. He will most likely be the Yankees’ #1 prospect by next year.
Wave Your Hat-That’s what everybody says, and I mean everybody.
Coke said it. Lidge said it. Madson said it.
I’m not making this stuff up. The ninth is supposedly a different animal.
CB — Yesterday I read a comment of yours that both scared and excited me. You said that Montero was coming on faster this year than Miguel Cabrera had done. If that’s true, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t matter where Jesus plays (though imagine THAT production at catcher? wow) because he’ll be able to hit at any level.
Now do you think his bat has THAT kind of upside? Or were you just saying that his progression through the minors is similar?
“pat
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:59 am
DT
Survivor? I believe we would be referring to 2 different Hatch’s.”
Pat – yeah two different guys. I guess I’m not the only one to mix them up! – http://tinyurl.com/max9hk
(picture of one guy, article on the other)
Thank you, Rishi!!
Kazmir looked good in his debut, got a no-decision in a win, I think. He’s probably back.
Good team, but that bullpen will always be an issue for them.
Howell? Everytime I see a team rally now, he’s in the middle of it.
We’ll see how the bullpen holds up with undefined roles.
I’ve spoken about pitchers and shoulders with orthopaedic surgeons and have been told that some shoulder injuries or “abnormalities” can be exascerbated (made worse) by long periods of activity (like a starter) while others are impacted more by inadequate rest cycles (like a reliever).
I wrote here last year during Joba’s shoulder issues that determining which situation he was in would eventually be the decisive factor for his pitching future. That’s exactly what led the Sawx to conclude Papelbon should be a closer.
Just to go back to Papelbon briefly.
The spring training after he became the Sox closer and flourished, the Sox tried him out again in the starting rotation. If I recall correctly he had mixed results, had a big pow wow with the org, the doctors etc and was returned to the pen.
Mo is our closer this year and next. Don’t worry about 2011 now.
Phil is in the Pen for now and you might just see him start again soon. Either way he’s been real good and should be done with AAA.
I like Pena and I like what the Yankees plans are for him.
Cody and Eric had better play well or one of them will be replaced by Pena come August.
Totally random-Don’t you love when ARod hits those bombs like yesterday that look like routine popups?
CB,
We’ve been talking quite a bit about the Yankees bringing up young power arms to bolster the pen and ease the transition to the majors.
Do you think the Rays will do this? They did it with Price, with good results. But are they too cheap to do it on a regular basis?
“I will say this: The closer role is supposedly very tough.”
I agree that in general it’s harder to pitch higher leverage innings, especially if you come in with men on base (though that doesn’t get reflected on your ERA if you fail…).
But how often are closers, especially non Mariano closers, ever used in the highest leverage spot? How often do they come into the middle of an inning with men on base?
It’s not infrequent that they’ll come in for the 9th and have to face the bottom of the oppositions line up. How hard is that?
Go look and see how many times any closer now comes in with men on base. Take a look at how many times Papelbon has come in with men on base. Guys rarely pitch the toughest situations. Instead those get carved up in an assortment of mix and match let’s use 5 relievers to get 3 outs kind of things.
And all of this has become a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. Players are now psyching themselves out because they’ve kept hearing for years how special the 9th inning or 8th inning is. Remember when Phil Coke was near hyperventilating in that one save chance he got? That was self-induced.
And I’m sorry, Ryan Madsen has a great arm and vicious stuff. He’s been one of the best relievers in baseball the past two years.
If that guy can’t pitch 1 inning just because it’s the 9th the biggest reason why is that he’s completely bought into the myth of hyperspecialization and has psyched himself out.
Montero already is the Yankees number one prospect. Austin Jackson is the most MLB ready, but Montero is completely untouchable.
People are beginning to compare him to Miguel Cabrera who is only the best hitter to come up since Pujols. I don’t know how good of a ctcher he’ll ever be, but all indications are he’ll be able to hit at the highest level very soon.
What he’s done in Trenton is more impressive than any AA Yankees hitting prospect in my memory when you consider he’s two years younger than anyone else on that team.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN -
I know, and I’m sure they feel that way, although sometimes I wonder if they feel that way because everybody says it is true. Back in the day nobody said they felt that way – maybe they did but it would have been thought “unmanly” to say so.
But by extension, if everyone starts talking about the special stuff you need to pitch in the eighth inning, relievers will all start saying how tough the eighth inning is. Then the media will start in on the seventh – wait and see.
“The Rays are arguably the hottest team in baseball and are coming on like gangbusters. They are clearly one of the 5 best teams in baseball”
is this news? Anyone paying attention to their run-differential this year (and their performance last year) knew this was coming.
the Rays aren’t going away
Erica – newly OPPC
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:51 am
GB7-
Did it make a lot more sense when you realized it was me? (Keep in mind, I confessed to you all last night that I own a rain jacket with butterlies)
Although, I can totally picture Brandon singing and dancing to “I Feel Pretty” now that you mention it
————————————————————
No matter how much he begs, whines and stomps his feet, don’t let him borrow your rain jacket with butterflies. You’ll never get it back. He’s still got mine. I think he might be a serial raincoat wearer.
CB-so you’re thinking that all these pitchers psyched themselves out?
FWIW, his wikipedia page says he was made a closer b/c of arm issues:
“Papelbon was being groomed to be part of the Red Sox starting rotation, but because of his shoulder problems, was later moved back to the bullpen before the start of the season and remained the team’s closer.[1]”
again, it is wikipedia…
So Pete when will you ask Cashman about Chapman ?
Gotta split guys. Good discussion.
Hope to see Melancon get another shot this year.
By the way, good spot on wiki Rishi.
the Cavs, huh? Can we trade Eric Hinske for Shaq? He can be our new 8th inning guy!
Thanks
Baseball Prospectus: Yanks ink 3 in International Signing Period.
Dominican catcher Gary Sanchez, SS Damian Arredondo and RHP Chris Cabrera have all reached deals with the Yankees for a combined 4.25 million.
http://www.baseballprospectus......ed/?p=1327
CB-
You are right on target.
Why would it be harder to pitch the ninth, with a three run lead, than to come into a tie game in the sixth inning with the bases loaded and nobody out?
Clearly the higher leverage situation would be psychologically tougher than the easy ninth inning save.
But I think all this talk about the special psychological difficulty of the ninth inning or the eighth inning is way overblown. You don’t get to the major leagues as a pitcher if you are the type that punks out in pressure situations – in fact, to get to the majors you need to have generally done well in precisely those situations all your life.
DT
Darn you. I checked the link and my crush hasn’t aged well.
First Jackson Browne got older looking but at least he could still sing, Richard Hatch was all about the face.
Just because you have great stuff doesn’t mean you can close.
It’s most likely a combination of stuff and mental makeup.
Closers come in all shapes & sizes, and some just have a knack for getting it done (K-rod, Lidge) no matter how many guys get on base.
Some just get it done (mo!).
I do think that Hughes would make a good closer, but what a waste, because he’ll be a very good starter.
If you can’t start, you go to the bullpen. If you’re a really good reliever, you close. Will the Yankees sacrifice a terrific starting prospect to close? I doubt it. Because even if we’re spoiled by mo, it’s not rocket science. I’m sure we can find someone besides Phil or Joba to close.
Rob NY
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:18 am
CB — Yesterday I read a comment of yours that both scared and excited me. You said that Montero was coming on faster this year than Miguel Cabrera had done. If that’s true, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t matter where Jesus plays (though imagine THAT production at catcher? wow) because he’ll be able to hit at any level.
Now do you think his bat has THAT kind of upside? Or were you just saying that his progression through the minors is similar?
————————————————————
If Montero progresses as assumed and stays as a catcher, he has the potential of being the next Mike Piazza with a much better arm.
OK, I have a question for anyone who follows the international prospects. Why are we not in on Miguel Angel Sano again? Is it because we spent too much on Gary Sanchez? If so, what’s so great about Sanchez? I know hype doesn’t equal talent, but I’ve heard soo much about Sano and nothing about Sanchez. What makes the Yankees think that Sanchez will be better, or that Sano won’t live up to the hype? Assuming this is their thought process, that is. And especially with so many good catching prospects on the farm while a lot of our SS prospects have had disappointing showings this yeAr?
Personally, I wouldnt have minded seeing the Yanks sign both players. They werent planning on going far over slot with anyone they drafted in June, iirc, so they should have extra money to spend, no?
CB —
Just cuz you don’t think the ninth inning is a big deal doesn’t mean it isn’t one. Being a closer is at least 50 percent mental and probably more. Don’t believe me? Look at the saves leaders and tell me hjow many had truly dominany stuff. Most were very good but not great.
Roberto Hernandez, Joe Mesa and Todd Jones are in the top 15 of career saves. That’s enough proof for me that closing isn’t about “stuff”. If you need more proof, look up Farnsworth in the dictionary.
86w,
Montero has the highest ceiling but you can’t say yet that he’s the #1 prospect. Jackson is the consensus #1 at the moment.
Either way, it’ll be nice to see two good position players come out of the Yankee farm system and help the team in the next few years.
I’m still extremely wary about Jackson though. His strikeouts are very very troubling. His current strikeout rate does not bode well for future success in the majors.
I have a question on the International Signing Period rules… from what i’ve read it seems its open season on all these players in that there is no draft positioning where the bad teams get to pick first…
so if that is true why can’t/didn’t the yankees make a run at Miguel Angel Sano? I would think since they have no chance at the strasburg’s (spelling?)and this phenom catcher out of las vegas next year – that the yankees should fatten up theur farm system by signing every decent player they could if there are no rules banning it…
anyone that can offer some insight?
ohhh, thanks for the international update, BigYank. So they did pick up a SS after all…anyone know anything about him? Damian Arredondo?
“11:10 AM: A source close to the situation says that 21-year-old Cuban LHP Aroldis Chapman indeed has defected. There were conflicting reports about the accuracy of a report yesterday at cubaencuentro.com about Chapman defecting. I’ll continue digging for more details.”
Baseball Prospectus is confirming that Chapman has indeed defected. Why is this not being followed up on news I do not know.
“Montero has the highest ceiling but you can’t say yet that he’s the #1 prospect. Jackson is the consensus #1 at the moment.”
——–
the consensus seems to be that Montero will not be able to stay at catcher.
It’s possible that if there were more belief that he could stay at C, he’d be the clear #1.
As has been stated here in the past, the notion that he cannot stay at C was based on old info. He has either improved behind the plate since then, or that old info was bad info.
BBB — I’m sure if Sano was a catcher the Yanks would be all over him. They have a catcher obsession that borders on creepy.
Frankly I have no opinion on anyt of the international prospects because so little is known about them… exc ept that most of the money spent on them never pays off.
That said, I would rather they invest in a potential corner outfielder or maybe the SS of the future than yet another catcher.
Sometimes Girardi does try to think too much and makes a lot of very puzzling moves.
We already know about his use of Hughes in both last night’s game and on Tuesday.
But Girardi also brought in Aceves last night to pitch to one hitter – Cedeno – a guy hitting .130 on the season. Aceves damn near walked the guy, too.
Coke can get right handers out, too. He should have just started the inning.
Not sure why Girardi is so intent on matchups that he brought in Aceves to pitch to their worst hitter simply because he’s right-handed.
Lots of peculiar moves by Girardi with the pen this season – which is puzzling given how well he managed the pen last season.
BBB – From all accounts the draft and IFA budgets are separate. The Yankees will spend more than $4,000,000 today on 3 kids. I would not accuse the Yankees of being cheap. Their IFA signings have really been spot on in recent years and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Just recently Aceves was an under the radar pick who paid immediate dividends and Manny Banuelos and Arodys Vizcaino are fantastic prospects who were also not the most hyped guys.
Boston off day, so theoretically we can crawl to within 2 games…or fall 3 back.
“OK, I have a question for anyone who follows the international prospects. Why are we not in on Miguel Angel Sano again? Is it because we spent too much on Gary Sanchez? If so, what’s so great about Sanchez? I know hype doesn’t equal talent, but I’ve heard soo much about Sano and nothing about Sanchez. What makes the Yankees think that Sanchez will be better, or that Sano won’t live up to the hype? Assuming this is their thought process, that is. And especially with so many good catching prospects on the farm while a lot of our SS prospects have had disappointing showings this yeAr?
Personally, I wouldnt have minded seeing the Yanks sign both players. They werent planning on going far over slot with anyone they drafted in June, iirc, so they should have extra money to spend, no?”
I don’t know the first part. Very good question.
however in light of Chapman’s defection, i wouldn’t have minded skipping on both players and saving the $$$ for Chapman
haha sab I just asked the same question. Your guess is as good as mine! I agree that this is the easiest way for the Yankees to draft top talent, and especially this year with not having had as many picks to spend on signing in the regular draft, why not be aggressive as possible?
“Montero has the highest ceiling but you can’t say yet that he’s the #1 prospect. Jackson is the consensus #1 at the moment”
no he’s not.
86 – they signed a SS today for about 3/4 of a million.
Giuseppe – Girardi’s bullpen maneuvering annoys me too. Overall his has gotten results, particularly since beginning of June, but he seems to go through way too many guys a night. If a guy is cruising leave him in for another batter (Coke yesterday) or another inning (Hughes 2 nights ago). You gotta have a short leash for someone getting crushed, but if they are throwing exceedingly well have a bit more flexibility.
GF,
It’s peculiar only in that the bullpen management is a complete 180 from last season.
Last season he let guys go full innings and they were doing a good job of getting both lefties & righties out.
This season is the more conventional mix & match that the managers like to do.
I liked last season’s style because it foiled any countermoves. It didn’t matter if a lefty or righty came up, we got them out.
But I can’t get upset with moves this season, as long as they work out.
“the consensus seems to be that Montero will not be able to stay at catcher.”
Well clearly that’s not the consensus or he wouldn’t be playing catcher in AA right now. The Yankees have yet to make a decision on his future position. It could be catcher, only the Yankees know.
“Sorry I just don’t agree about Leyritz. He gets drunk, drives his car and kills someone. If that was a one time thing I understand; it’s a mistake and everyone makes mistakes. But now he’s arrested for battery? This is clearly a bad guy.”
My point was that there is “bad” and then there is “bad.” DUI related death is not OK or good. There, however, but for the Grace of God go so many of us. You have to own up to that along with the righteous indignation.
Now, if we are going to talk “bad guy,” talk to me about contract killers or cop killers, or a gang-related killings or rapists or kidnappers. Getting arrested for a he-said, she-said battery? I’ll withhold judgment until the facts come out. The man’s life is in a spiral. He’s doing enough to bury himself without me throwing any more dirt on him because he got arrested.
The Yankees reportedly have signed a SS today for 850K with plus, plus speed and plus glovework and arm. His name is Damian Arredondo.
Sano is under investigation regarding his age and won’t be signing anytime soon. Also, he’s projected to move off of SS due to his size.
BBB – i don’t know you but I like you already…
the way i see the international signing is similar to me bidding on ebay….if there is something i want or like there is no one that is outbidding me – especially if i have more money than anyone else on the planet (like the yankees do – i actually am rather poor)…
so it seems like a no brainer to make up for the yankkes always picking 35th in the draft…
“Roberto Hernandez, Joe Mesa and Todd Jones are in the top 15 of career saves. That’s enough proof for me that closing isn’t about “stuff”. If you need more proof, look up Farnsworth in the dictionary.”
But Farnsworth didn’t pitch well for us no matter what inning he pitched in. It wasn’t like he was lights out in the seventh, was it?
It seems to me the closer is almost always the best reliever on the team. Very seldom do you see the most consistently good reliever pitcher the eighth, and somebody else pitching the ninth. So while it might be true you need special mental powers to close, if that were so. wouldn’t it be true that that you would see a lot more Todd Jones types than we do?
I just wonder whether the special mental toughness thing is just a narrative we attribute to players because we fans like our heroes to be on a higher moral plane.
“Now do you think his bat has THAT kind of upside? Or were you just saying that his progression through the minors is similar?”
Some guys have an innate gift to square a round ball with a round bat. That gift only becomes manifest with a ton of hard work and discipline. But it takes that gift.
You watch Alex hit that home run last night to dead center field – Alex has that gift. Pujols has that gift. The ball makes a different sound off the bat. I think everyone knows that sound. It’s the one that makes you turn your head if your talking to the person next to you at the stadium.
I do think there is a very high probability that Montero has that gift.
What got me particularly excited about Montero is what he’s done in winter ball. Those are tough leagues and he’s playing against much older competition. And he still raked.
It’s hard to watch his progression now and not be reminded of Miguel Cabrera. Montero was described as the best international hitting prospect since Cabrera when he signed but I didn’t put much into that – there always so much hype.
But Montero is the real deal. He’s special. When you look at why talented guys fail as they move up through the minors there’s usuall a few reasons. The first is that they just can’t hit breaking pitches. You start finding that out in AA.
We’ll see with Montero – but to date Montero actually has a reverse platoon split. He’s hitting righties better than lefties. Believe me that will not last. So what your seeing in his numbers sort of underestimates his true potential. Eventually he will maul left handed pitching. Right now his OPS is .300 points higher against righties. Think about that.
Guys often have a terrible time with command of the strike zone. We’re seeing Austin Jackson go through that. Never been an issue for Montero in the least. He has amazing strike zone command. When I talk about that gift some guys have part of the reason why they have it isn’t even related to their swing. They know which pitches to swing at. I don’t care about small samples – if you’re 19 and you have 6 K’s in your first 70 at bats in AA that’s something.
I don’t like to overhype prospects – especially with yankee fans because expectations run so high.
But the kid is special. Very special.
Miguel Cabrera is the last guy I remember doing any thing like this.
His line in AA was .365 /.429 /.609 / 1.038. He was 20 went he did that and as he was doing that you just knew he was going to be a star.
But Cabrera did that when he was 20.
Montero is 19. And I know it’s not a lot of at bats and i know this hot streak will cool with Montero but his OPS in AA right now is .950.
Let’s wait and see but these kinds of guys don’t come around much. And when they make themselves glow.
Brandon, I imagine most of the media outlets are working through the “conflicting reports” and once they do, will report something.
86w183, the rumor is Sano is lying about his age, when you scout a IFA prospect if he is 16 w/ Sano’s tools he projects to a franchise high ceiling star, if Sano is 19 or 20 or 21 abusing on 16 yr. olds than the ceiling is no longer a true ceiling.
If Jesus Montero can stick at catcher, he’s the best prospect in baseball within 12 months flat. I guess after seeing Cervelli’s defense, Jesus doesn’t need to be a whiz behind the plate. They could make an excellent catching tandem.
I think the idea that Montero would have to move is based more on his size (6′4″, 225) than anything else.
Don’t worry too much about Jackson and his strikeouts. Like Montero he is the youngest player on his team… he won’t be 23 until February. There are not many really good 23 year old position players in MLB. There are some, but not many. I focus on the positives… .320 BA, 26 X-base hits, 13-13 SB.
“BBB — I’m sure if Sano was a catcher the Yanks would be all over him. They have a catcher obsession that borders on creepy.”
LOL, real talk! Maybe they are jealous of Texas’ catching surplus…a situation that they still have not used to their advantage in a trade.
It’ll be fun to see who is catching for the Yankees in 5 yrs or even 3. Other than Montero, I have a pretty good feeling about Kyle Higishioka…so much so, that I might even learn to spell his last name soon. Although knowing the Yanks sometimes, watch them develop all these C prospects only to sign Mauer in free agency!
“no he’s not.”
What a dazzling argument from vinny-b. Thanks for that buddy, you’ve convinced me.
The fact of the matter is, Jackson was ranked the Yankees’ #1 prospect from basically every publication before the season started. He’s done well at AAA and while Montero has been fantastic we don’t know what his position is in the minors and he’s probably 1.5-2 years away from the majors.
Jackson is a great fielder, close to the majors and an impact hitter. He is the Yankees #1 prospect at this time.
“Well clearly that’s not the consensus or he wouldn’t be playing catcher in AA right now. The Yankees have yet to make a decision on his future position. It could be catcher, only the Yankees know.”
———
I don’t mean the consensus with the Yankees. I mean the consensus on those “voting” for the rank of the Yankee prospects.
I didn’t see any lists where Montero was higher than AJax. I also didn’t hear many, if any, who felt Montero would stay at C in the big leagues.
If there is a disconnect there, and Montero does project to stay at C, he could very well be the top prospect.
Some signs have emerged that the bullpen is beginning to find itself. Girardi should get props for using it right. Pitch counts have been reasonable and roles are being established. Every team needs a Brett Tomko that during a losing laugher (and there will be some of those) can eat up innings and save arms.
Meantime, Melancon and Albaladejo are not doing bad in AAA and could be of help during a late summer push.
Cashman can still look for another arm at the end of the month but doesn’t need to be held hostage in giving up top echelon talent.
“Do you think the Rays will do this? They did it with Price, with good results. But are they too cheap to do it on a regular basis?”
m,
I’m surprised that they haven’t. The Rays have a terrific farm system and on the whole they have more top end pitching prospects than the yanks (counting Price as a prospect and Joba/ Hughes as major leaguers). But they have less depth. They don’t have as many guys like Dave Robertson. For building a pen that’s important.
Two of their best arms have also recently been hurt – Jake McGee had TJ last season and Jeremy Hellickson has had shoulder problems.
The guy I’ve been very surprised that they haven’t called up for the pen is Wade Davis. Very good arm. Mid ninties. Not sure why.
Brandon —
I agree with your point. That’s why I believe that so much money is wasted with most of these international FA. People on this board were apoplectic about letting Inoa get away to Oakland. Nwo the Athletics are out $ four Million and he’s hurt and they may never get anything for the money.
Even astute people like SJ get sucked in and pledge $ 50 Million or more to a Cuban defector who may or may not be 21 or 27 or whatever.
Caveat Emptor!
CB – Completely different background, but how does Montero compare with Wieters? Both really big guys who can hit a ton.
If this story is in fact true very very big story in terms of the business side of baseball. Many here have mentioned the economy’s impact on the game and I have to think that if the Texas Rangers are having this issue they cannot be the only one and how this will effect everything moving forward
http://www.bizofbaseball.com/i.....;Itemid=42
Montero’s issues behind the plate are his size and I believe I have read his arm has a lot to be desired. It seems unlikely he stays back there with Cervelli and Romine showing so much promise. Romine I think has 9-10 homers now and is still really young. I do laugh though as I read some scout being highly critical of Monetro’s bat speed. It can’t be too shabby with his batting average and pop.
Jason – Thanks, I didn’t know that about the two budgets being seperate. Makes sense. I wonder if moneys that they didn’t spend on this year’s amateur draft can be rolled over for next year, when they’ll have more picks and the overall class might be a little bit better?
Anyway, I don’t think the Yankees are being cheap, at least not this year, they’ve already been pretty active today and hoping for more tomorrow, if that is possible within the budget/rules. I just don’t understand why they never seem to be in on the top guy – Sano this year, or Ynoa last year, who Billy Beane wanted so he has to be good! Maybe they still feel burned by Contreras. Couldnt really blame em for that one.
Yes, I wonder what Montero will be like behind the plate in the majors. It is hard to believe he will be as good defensively and at game-calling as Cervelli — either now or in the next few years.
How big Montero is going to get physically may become an issue as well. If he goes up to 230-240 it is hard for a man that size to catch. A year or two ago, the pundits were saying he would eventually be moved to first base but now with Teixera here that seems unlikely.
Cervelli may be the loser in this, caught between the end of Posada and the start of Montero. Yanks will probably always opt for a home-run bat over intelligent game-calling.
Montero’s bat is going to be ready for the majors long before his catching skills are.
The question is, do the Yanks give up what looks like will be a very special bat for a year or two in order to see if Montero develops into a major league catcher?
I think the Yanks won’t wait. Too bad first base is occupied – but they may try to make him a right fielder. I don’t think they’ll want to make him a DH only at such an early age.
Not sure I understand how all the prosect ranking works.
Is it upside or readiness?
Are Pena and Cervelli still considered prospects or do they lose that title now that they have had a cup of coffee with the big boys?
“I think the idea that Montero would have to move is based more on his size (6?4?, 225) than anything else. ”
It’s based on his size and also his quickness behind the plate. He doesn’t have quick feet – or that’s what the scouting reports say. You watch guys like the Molinas and they are pretty much the slowest runners in the majors but they are very agile behind the plate. So far scouts think Montero doesn’t have that quickness.
I do focus on Jackson’s positives but the strikeouts really bother me. He doesn’t hit for much power yet and still he K’s a ton. Usually that is a very bad sign for a player’s future in the majors. Hopefully another half a year or more in AAA can help him cut down on the K’s.
Montero was the number one Yankee prospect according to BA’s prospect handbook.
Chances are, BA will rank him in their top ten for all of baseball next time.
To weigh in on Jackson vs Montero.
Montero has a much, much higher upside with his bat. Jackson at the moment (and certainly at the beginning of the season) is closer to NY and the more well rounded player.
I guess Jackson is a really solid pick who can become a good to very good cf or lf for the Yankees for years to come.
CB — Thanks for your thoughts. I follow the box scores and keep track of most of our prospects like any other fan of the minor league affiliates but I haven’t seen him play so there’s nothing really for me to go on aside from the gaudy numbers and the steals against.
We don’t get these kinds of players in the amateur draft and I shutter to think what the baseball world would do in a year or two if Jesus is batting fifth in this lineup behind Tex and Alex. Throw in the possibility of a guy like Chapman coming here? They’d have to change the IFA rules!
Montero seems to be much more in the Mike Piazza role of catching if I had to make a comparison.
If Montero continue to rakes as I expect him to then he’ll be in a Yankee uniform sometime next year. It might not be until September, but he’ll be there.
86w183, if he’s 27 and sitting at 95-100 as a LHP, that’s still 50 million dollar + worth in this market. Not to mention he’s gone up against the best in the WBC.
The Piazza comparison is a good one, but I think Montero has a better arm than Piazza.
Wave Your Hat makes a good point. If Montero’s catching skills are not up to snuff, why not try him in right? Nady’s future is looking very dubious and frankly, aside from Swisher’s initial hot streak, he is not anything special.
Cervelli, on the other hand, is extremely special in my opinion and I would hate to see the Yanks either trade him or relegate him to permanent #2 status.
“Is it upside or readiness? ”
Combination of ceiling, readiness, likelihood that a player will reach that ceiling, etc
BBB – The Yankees had Ynoa locked up with a deal last year before he backed out and then signed with the A’s after the Yankees refused to go back a re-negotiate(at least according to what I read). He is already injured so we will see how that plays out for the A’s.
Why is Montero’s size an issue, but, Mauer’s and Wieter’s size isn’t an issue? They’re both bigger than Montero. Montero’s are isn’t a howitzer, but, it’s no pop gun. He’s accurate and throws just fine. With better and more intruction, he’ll be better.
sab – in fairness to the Yankees, I feel like in past years they have done that (spend aggressively on int’l prospects to make up for picking 5th) but I thought they were very passive last year and was surprised, especially since they failed to sign 2 early round picks in the amateur draft. They had gotten so much better w/acquiring legit prospects since Oppenheimer was put in charge, and I was worried they were going back downhill, but am assauged by the news of these 3 signings today!
“What a dazzling argument from vinny-b”
no need to argue.
everyone knows Montero has jumped AJax in prospect status.
take a poll. I dare you
Some of you guys need to stop overrating Cervelli. He’s a good defensive catcher, but his offensive game will never allow him to be a star player.
Actually, Montero jumped AJax last year as a prospect.
Cervelli will probably never be the starting catcher for the Yanks. If he stays in NY he will be a permanent backup most likely. He could end up as a starting C but probably for a lesser team.
“Completely different background, but how does Montero compare with Wieters? ”
I don’t know if they are that comparable. Weiters there was never any question about him sticking behind the plate. He has a better arm. Though their both big Weiters is more mobile than Montero. And he’s also a switch hitter.
On the flip side I don’t think when Weiters was 19 he could do what Montero is doing with the bat right now.
The gap in their ages makes it almost impossible to compare them in any meaningful way, IMO.
Has anyone actually seen Kelvin De Leon play yet?
He’s playing for the Gulf Coast Yankees and showing some impressive skills based on the stats. No plate discpline by the ks looks like, but at his age, he seems to have the raw power and skills like Montero
17 at bats this year 1 homer, 3 rbis, 3 steals .471 BA, but 5 ks.
last year :
.289 BA, 9 homers, 43 rbis, 8 steals in 235 at bats, but 74 ks.
Anything I have seen of him, he reminds me of a raw Soriano.
“take a poll. I dare you”
Take a poll among fans who have never seen either guy play. Real smart vin, real smart. I’d rather trust the scouts on this one.
Both guys are good baseball players, it’s pretty silly to argue over which one is #1 and which is #2. Montero will obviously be the better hitter but Jackson RIGHT NOW is a more well-rounded player and much closer to the majors.
I’ve read some comments about Wieters not staying at catcher in which some scouts thought he was best served as a first baseman. That’s a minority opinion, but it’s an opinion by some.
CB – Thanks. Just trying to get a frame of reference for Montero. I have not seen him live other than some spring games where he looked very comfortable with a bat in his hands.
Not every guy in the lineup needs to be a superstar. Wins can be gotten by means other than multiple home runs. I like what Cervelli, Gardner, and Pena have brought to the team this season.
If all those 20 million per year guys don’t perform as they are paid to do, the Yanks become the jokes of major league baseball.
Montero has a chance to be a hitter in the class of Cabrera, Pujols and Arod. In time, we’ll find out how good that bat is, but so far his bat has been special. AJax can’t compete with that in any area.
“I don’t think they’ll want to make him a DH only at such an early age.”
I think he’ll be a DH and part time catcher. He’ll learn under posada and pena. Play here and there in controlled settings and DH.
Montero’s played 20 odd games in AA. The trenton thunder are very well covered for a minor league team.
I haven’t heard any reports indicating that Montero has just been awful defensively behind the plate.
If he was really bad while playing for the thunder we would have heard about it by now.
To me that’s real encouraging. He doesn’t have to be good behind the plate. He just needs to be adequate.
Samdy July 2nd, 2009 at 11:57 am
Wave Your Hat makes a good point. If Montero’s catching skills are not up to snuff, why not try him in right? Nady’s future is looking very dubious and frankly, aside from Swisher’s initial hot streak, he is not anything special.
Cervelli, on the other hand, is extremely special in my opinion and I would hate to see the Yanks either trade him or relegate him to permanent #2 status.
—————-
You don’t move Montero from catcher anytime soon because that’s where he’s most valuable on the diamond.
How many catchers out there have Mike Piazza’s upside?
The Yanks won three rings with Jorge Posada behind the plate and he has never been a strong defender.
The size issue with Montero in comparison to the others is strictly due to athletic ability. Slow foot work, not a terriffic arm and of course he still needs to learn the nuiances for the game. Mauer has had back issues so he isn’t immune, but Mauer was all american football and basketball player I believe and obviously has serious skills defensively as well.
And I don’t think anyone is overating Cervelli. He has been acknowledged for his defense by baseball america. He has a great arm, obviously calls a good game, he may be a backup, but will be a superior one. And his bat hasn’t been awful. The Yankees let Navarro go and he has turned into a good player for the Rays. Romine seems to slot right in between Montero and Cervelli, more offense than Cervelli, but maybe less defense.
“jason
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:57 am
BBB – The Yankees had Ynoa locked up with a deal last year before he backed out and then signed with the A’s after the Yankees refused to go back a re-negotiate(at least according to what I read).”
Wow, I didnt know this either. Learn something new every day on this blog!
It’s not getting “sucked in”, 86.
Chapman has faced professional hitters in International Tournaments and has dominated them for the last 3 years. That’s not hype. That’s talent.
It’s a whole different deal from signing unproven 16 year old kids from Latin America.
This is the best 21 and under pitcher in the world.
That’s why you look to sign him.
Sano isn’t going to stay at SS. He’s probably a future OF because of his size.
The Yankees signed the best pure SS available today.
Sandy,
We’re not talking about 20M players, we’re talking about Montero versus Cervelli and in my opinion, there is no comparison offensively with Cervelli being a superior defensive catcher.
Patrick- Thanks.
Posada was never a strong defender, but I believe Montero has a 20% rate throwing runners out and that’s minor league players. Also at his age he has a lot to learn behind the plate for all the other nuiances of catching, much more than any other position player.
I’m afraid Patrick is right. Cervelli will probably never be Yanks starting catcher. Either he will be #2 to Montero (as Molina was #2 to Posada) or he will be traded.
Even if we have a year or so in between Posada’s exit and Montero being ready, I see the Yanks trading for a temporary fix.
Wonder why they encouraged Cervelli to become a catcher in the first place if they knew they would never have a long-term place for him?
There’s something I’ve never seen on a Yankee message board or blog….using salaries in a discussion about player ability. Novel.
“Take a poll among fans who have never seen either guy play. Real smart vin, real smart. I’d rather trust the scouts on this one”
Patrick from Pinstripe Plus was on YES last week, and rated Montero the #1 propspect in the system.
but what does he know…
Sandy,
Cervelli was a catcher before they signed Montero. Take it easy as Cervelli might stick as the Yankees backup catcher for the next several years.
new post!
Austin Romine
In A Ball
.288 10 homers 45 rbis 5 steals.
He definitely is no slouch as a prospect either. He’s 21 years old.
Now Sanchez. And don’t forget Higashioka they drafted out of high school last year out in SI.
Well it looks like we found how to end the ‘Joba belongs in the bullpen for good’ argument. It was so simple too … just start the ‘Phil belongs in the bullpen for good’ argument.
Phil’s only there (as Joba was) to fill a void for the team now that Wang appears to have awakened from the dead. Phil’s going to be a starter, and he’ll be on an innings limit next year much like Joba is this year.
Agreed, it doesn’t take superhuman qualities to pitch out of the bullpen successfully. Often, bullpen pitchers are just pitchers who aren’t good enough to be starters. What does take superhuman qualities is to do it as well as Mo has, for as long as Mo has. And with as much class as Mo has.
“Both guys are good baseball players, it’s pretty silly to argue over which one is #1 and which is #2. Montero will obviously be the better hitter but Jackson RIGHT NOW is a more well-rounded player and much closer to the majors”
the word ceiling, comes to mind
“The Yankees signed the best pure SS available today.”
Damian Arredondo is supposed be very good. Nice signing. Getting Sanchez and Arrendondo is a very nice July 2 for the yanks.
“Why is Montero’s size an issue, but, Mauer’s and Wieter’s size isn’t an issue? They’re both bigger than Montero. ”
GB7 – I always wondered the same thing. It seems simplistic to chalk it up to good old-fashioned Yankee hating on the part of analysts who write these things, but it seems like I always see prospects/young players on other teams praised for qualities that are not always cited as positives in Yankee prospects. The big catcher thing is one (and Pablo Sandoval is big also, I know he doesnt catch much now but I’d assume he will more when Bengie’s no longer there?)
…but what enraged me even more is I once read an article saying something to the effect of Austin Jackson is a typical Yankee bust because he’s all athleticism and not enough baseball instinct or some other such nonsense. I think it was Ken Rosenthal who wrote it, but not positive. But…..what on god’s green earth? Since when is athleticism a bad thing? And I think his instincts are just fine considering baseball wasnt even his primary sport in college, right?
So heartened to hear the info. on Sano and Arredondo. Thanks to all who had the 411. Looks like the Yanks made a good choice after all!
The Yankees also drafted a catcher (in the second round I think) that they are very high on.
Montero is throwing out 28% of the runners at Trenton, 18 steals and 7 caught. He was at 13% in Tampa and 25% at Charleston. A major problem is that NYY doesn’t have more than 2 or 3 pitchers in the A and AA levels that can hold runners.
“You don’t move Montero from catcher anytime soon because that’s where he’s most valuable on the diamond.”
That thinking is not necessarily true. It ignores the value of time and it ignores risk.
Just as you would rather have money today than three years from now, you would rather have runs today than three years from now.
If Montero could hit in the majors next year, for instance, then you lose a lot by waiting three years (for example) for his catching skills to catch up. Plus, you take the risk that he will never develop sufficient catching skills to be a catcher in the big leagues.
It is far from an easy question to answer.
Tonight would be a good opportunity to sit A-Rod with CC on the mound… It’s not a stretch to think that CC will be able to hold Seattle’s offense down enough for the Yankees to get the win.
“Montero is throwing out 28% of the runners at Trenton, 18 steals and 7 caught.”
GB7,
I noticed this myself. What struck me about that is how often people were trying to run on him. It seems that they’d heard that he’s not good defensively – these same vague criticisms everyone’s heard and decided to test his arm.
And he’s been fine. 28% is a very good rate for AA given that the pitchers generally don’t know how to hold runners.
Arod is not sitting down today.
If Arod sits, it will be against the Twins in the Dome.
BBB
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
“Why is Montero’s size an issue, but, Mauer’s and Wieter’s size isn’t an issue? They’re both bigger than Montero. ”
GB7 – I always wondered the same thing. It seems simplistic to chalk it up to good old-fashioned Yankee hating on the part of analysts who write these things, but it seems like I always see prospects/young players on other teams praised for qualities that are not always cited as positives in Yankee prospects. The big catcher thing is one (and Pablo Sandoval is big also, I know he doesnt catch much now but I’d assume he will more when Bengie’s no longer there?)
…but what enraged me even more is I once read an article saying something to the effect of Austin Jackson is a typical Yankee bust because he’s all athleticism and not enough baseball instinct or some other such nonsense. I think it was Ken Rosenthal who wrote it, but not positive. But…..what on god’s green earth? Since when is athleticism a bad thing? And I think his instincts are just fine considering baseball wasnt even his primary sport in college, right?
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Sandalvol will most likely be the 2nd catcher or emergency catcher because, unless he flops, Buster Posy is scheduled to be the catcher by this September for SF. regardless of who the #1 catcher is in 2 or 3 years, they’ll be young and talented. They have 5 of the top 10 or 15 catching prospects in baseball right now. If they all show something, they’ll switch to other positions or will become gold mines in trades.
One more thing about Chapman, he won’t be available to sign until next year sometime so it’s going to be a long drawn out process with him.
Isn’t Sandoval their 3rd baseman now?
Wave Your Hat July 2nd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
“You don’t move Montero from catcher anytime soon because that’s where he’s most valuable on the diamond.”
That thinking is not necessarily true. It ignores the value of time and it ignores risk.
Just as you would rather have money today than three years from now, you would rather have runs today than three years from now.
If Montero could hit in the majors next year, for instance, then you lose a lot by waiting three years (for example) for his catching skills to catch up. Plus, you take the risk that he will never develop sufficient catching skills to be a catcher in the big leagues.
It is far from an easy question to answer.
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Montero is far from helpless behind the plate. The kid only needs to be adequate behind the plate to have real value to this team.
They can’t have a 20 year old everyday DH with the A-Rods, Jeters, and Posadas of the world in the lineup everyday as well.
GB 7 is right…
Defensive stats in the minors are not very illustrative of ability. Offensive stats are much more predictive, especially if viewed through the appropriate context of age, experience, ball park and league.
That’s why some of us are extremely high on Montero. At his age those stats in Charleston would be very impressive. In Trenton they are off the charts incredible.
Similarly we are impressed by Austin Jackson’s numbers considering almost everyone in the International League is older than he is.
Nothing wrong with debating # 1 versus # 2 in terms of prospects. I rank them based on this simple Question — if the Yankees were offered a tremendous player that they just had to have but they had to give up one of the two which one would they move? (you can’t chant and say neither for this exercise) I’m convinced they would trade anyone in the minor league system before they’d move Montero.
“They can’t have a 20 year old everyday DH with the A-Rods, Jeters, and Posadas of the world in the lineup everyday as well.”
I agree Montero shouldn’t be pushed to DH. But if this kid has the kind of bat he promises to have, waiting for his catching skills to get there could be a big loss. That’s why I was thinking the Yanks might decide to move him to RF and get him up as soon as he’s ready to hit major league pitching.
I suspect it will depend on how fast the Yanks think his catching skills will progress, and whether his catching is holding back his hitting.
One thing about Austin Jackson. I read an article featuring him very recently:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06.....ckson.html
He was a ranked baseball player at age 12 and age 15 and then focused on basketball to prove he could do that to.
So, the kid has very good instincts and baseball is not all that foreign to him.
ALL-STAR VOTING UPDATE: TEIXEIRA GARNERING 17% MORE VOTES THAN YOUKILIS OVER PAST 3 DAYS!!
Will Kevin Youkilis make it four straight years for a Red Sox first baseman to be voted the AL starter?
Yankees rival Mark Teixeira is making a strong bid to end Boston’s run by garnering 17 percent more online votes than Youkilis over the past 72 hours in hopes of closing a 40,000-vote gap.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....p;c_id=mlb
That’s good news, but that’s only gonna make Sox fans vote even more for Youk over the next 12 hours. We need to continue to vote for Teixeira, vote as much as you can to make him the starting first baseman representing the AL.