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Handicapping the Halladay race

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jul 08, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

73394596CC025_Toronto_Blue_J.P. Ricciardi played it exactly right yesterday.

He put the word out that he would be willing to discuss a deal for Roy Halladay and then picked up his cell phone a few times over the course of the day to reiterate that to ESPN, Sports Illustrated and Fox Sports.com.

No fool is Ricciardi. Within a few hours, it was the biggest story in baseball. Halladay became the hot topic on sports-talk radio stations in New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Los Angeles and Chicago along with a few hundred blogs, including this one. Everybody was trying to figure out who their teams can send to Toronto for the respected right-hander.

It’s called building a market. There are only a handful of teams that have the prospects to get Halladay and the financial wherewithal to pay him to waive his no-trade rights. But all Ricciardi needs is one GM to take the bait.

Let’s try and set the field:

THE FAVORITES

Phillies: They need pitching badly and rookie GM Ruben Amaro would love to show he can wheel and deal in July. Keep in mind that team consultant Pat Gillick has close ties to Toronto.

White Sox: No GM is more aggressive than Kenny Williams and the White Sox see a division there for the taking. Williams made a deal for Jake Peavy that fell through. He’ll try again.

Angels: They never spent the money they had set aside for Mark Teixeira. If they have prospects Toronto likes, they can afford Halladay.

THE INSTIGATORS

Yankees: Brian Cashman wouldn’t trade for the younger Johan Santana. Now he’ll reverse course and trade for Halladay? That makes no sense. The Yankees will play the game and stay in it, just to make sure the price is painful for whoever does get the ace.

Red Sox: They have been unwilling to part with their young pitching. Theo Epstein’s mission will be to make sure Cashman doesn’t get him. They need a bat more than an arm.

THE OUTSIDERS

Mets: Forget it. Their putrid farm system is bereft of prospects and Halladay wants to go to a winner.

Dodgers: They don’t need Halladay to win their division and owner Frank McCourt won’t want to take on the added expense.

Cubs: Another team lacking in prospects. Their unsettled ownership situation also could throw in a wrench in trade talks.

THE DARK HORSE

Giants: They’re always looking to make a splash and could see Halladay giving them the NL’s best rotation.

Prediction: Ricciardi has started a fire he can’t put out. Halladay will go to the Phillies by the end of the month. It’s addition by subtraction from the American League for the Yankees.

Comments

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383 Responses to “Handicapping the Halladay race”

  1. Carl July 8th, 2009 at 10:03 am

    Pete Jon Heyman said the Yankees and Phills are early Favorites.

  2. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:05 am

    Pete,
    You need to reevaluate your logic about the Yankees. The dynamics of the Yankees have changed since two years ago.

  3. raymagnetic July 8th, 2009 at 10:06 am

    I’m with SJ44 on this one. If the Yankees want him they’ll get him.

    The Steinbrenner’s aren’t losing out on Roy Halladay over prospects. They were willing to offer Hughes for Johan, and I think they’ll do it again if they must.

  4. Carl July 8th, 2009 at 10:06 am

    Yankees: Brian Cashman wouldn’t trade for the younger Johan Santana. Now he’ll reverse course and trade for Halladay? That makes no sense. The Yankees will play the game and stay in it, just to make sure the price is painful for whoever does get the ace.

    The Yankees had a deal in place. Twins GM passed on it.

  5. Doreen July 8th, 2009 at 10:06 am

    If Halladay goes to the Phillies, that would be a win for the Yankees, for sure.

    And then I wouldn’t have to get used to the idea of losing Hughes and/or Joba and/or Jackson before even gets up the majors. :)

  6. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 10:07 am

    “Mets: Forget it. Their putrid farm system is bereft of prospects and Halladay wants to go to a winner.”

    ===========

    Ouch, that’s true though. I still don’t understand why Minaya doesn’t get blasted more often for this. The farm is horrible. Minaya has not lived up to his billing. Getting one big free agent/acquisition each year while ignoring depth or trading whatever depth there is was not wise.

    My prediction? Halladay is gone this offseason. And the Yankees will always break the bank, so I wouldn’t be surprised if at some point they did get him.

    For the record, I don’t want Halladay.

  7. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:07 am

    Yes, people forget that Hughes was on the table and that the Twins new GM screwed up by not jumping on that deal.

  8. Hokiehill July 8th, 2009 at 10:08 am

    lets shift the debate and assume the Yankees are going to do the deal but have to decide between Joba or Hughes…who would you part with?

  9. Andrew July 8th, 2009 at 10:08 am

    I think the White Sox make the most sense. Gordon Beckham, Alexis Ramirez…wouldn’t JP be interested in one of those guys if the bugaboo is that Toronto wants a SS back? Plus the AL Central is pretty much wide-open as Detroit has its share of imperfections and Kenny Williams loves pulling the trigger.

    My guess is if anyone is getting close at the deadline it will be the Phils or the ChiSox, but I don’t think Halladay gets traded until the offseason. Some team will build its offseason around acquiring him and potentially follow the Billy Beane/Matt Holliday model: if it all fails, you can always trade him again at the deadline (unless his no-trade carries over?)

  10. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:10 am

    Don’t count out the Mets as winners when they get healthy. They could make a nice second half run.

    If they get healthy.

    I think the Yankees have a REALLY outside shot. As in, if I heard we got him I’d be really surprised but not shocked. Ditto with Red Sox.

  11. The Ghost July 8th, 2009 at 10:10 am

    I think Yankee fans have been skittish about in season trades this year due to the Irod/Farnsworth disaster that seemed to taint team chemistry last year. The Yankees for the first time in 15 years have a young core that really seems to enjoy playing with each other. I’d hate to see them break that up for a great pitcher with a ton of innings under his belt that may be showing his first signs of breaking down.

  12. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    Hokiehill-We went through this yesterday, did we not? I say Hughes.

  13. smith July 8th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    Joba’s head isn’t screwed on straight. I wouldn’t mind dealing him.

  14. keith July 8th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    uh, Cashman would have traded hughes for santana. the twins rejected the yankees offer of hughes, melky and marquez; they wanted more. if bill smith says, “ok, we’ll take it” then the deal would have been made.

  15. Tom B July 8th, 2009 at 10:12 am

    face it, the jays are not trading the best pitcher in baseball to another team in their division. i don’t care if we sent them our entire scranton team, it’s just not happening.

  16. jason July 8th, 2009 at 10:12 am

    Red Sox – Bucholz, Bowden, Anderson + 1
    Yankees – Joba, Romine, Pena or Nunez (just because someone mentioned the Jays wand a shortstop and Nunez is playing really well right now) + 1

    Who takes it, whose package reigns supreme?

  17. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 10:13 am

    The Giants already have the best rotation in the NL.

    I agree with Pete, Halladay goes to the Phillies.

  18. Frank from Chatham July 8th, 2009 at 10:13 am

    If Halladay goes to the Phillies that would be a blow equal to the Red Sox.

    Because … the Yanks must go thru Boston first and then eventually thru Philly to get to the rings.

  19. NO HYPE July 8th, 2009 at 10:13 am

    If the deal is right, Cashman will go after him without a doubt. With Halladay we are literally a lock for a World Series Championship.

  20. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    The White Sox don’t have the prospects to get him.

    Its Philly, Boston or NY.

    As far as the Phillies are concerned, what if he doesn’t want to go to the NL? If that’s the case, the Phillies are out.

    The Johan Santana “argument” makes little sense.

    The Yankees final offer for Santana was Hughes, Cabrera and Marquez for Santana. Bill Smith turned it down.

    Had he said “yes”, the Yankees had no problems parting with a young pitcher for Santana.

    Now, they have TWO young guns and a better pitcher on the market.

    If you trade one, you still have the other.

    I would argue the climate is PERFECT for the Yankees to do this deal because they are in a better position to withstand the loss of personnel to get Halladay.

    You put CC-AJ-Doc-whichever young guy is left in the rotation for the next 3-4 years and its almost unfair.

    The Phillies make sense IF he wants to change leagues AND they can match up with Toronto.

    If he doesn’t want to change leagues, this is a NY and Boston battle.

  21. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Tom B-I agree that it almost definitely wouldn’t happen. HOWEVER if the Yankees gave them a really really ridiculously good (and ridiculously rich) offer, it’d be hard to see how Toronto could pass that up.

    Granted, I HIGHLY doubt it’ll happen. But w/the Yankees you can’t count anything out.

  22. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    “face it, the jays are not trading the best pitcher in baseball to another team in their division. i don’t care if we sent them our entire scranton team, it’s just not happening. ”

    They’ve done it before, they would do it again. Also don’t forget that Ricciardi is a Billy Beane disciple and Beane does it all the time.

    The Jays aren’t going to contend for the playoffs for the next 2 years. If you give Halladay to the Yanks or Sox the theory is that those two team will dominate for 2 years and the prospects you get back would allow the Jays to dominate for the 3-4 years after that.

    In the short run it helps your division rivals but in the long run it helps the Jays and hurts your competition.

  23. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    JP’s going to TRY to pawn off Rios or Wells contract on US not the other teams.

    JP will likely try to deal Rios and Wells along w/ Doc to US ! The Red Soxs will just drive up the price. They don’t want Doc they want a Justin Smoak or Hanley Ramirez for thier young arms.

    If JP deals w/ MIL or PHI he’s not going to include Wells or Rios, he’ll do the 5 top prospects type deal, 2 A prospects, 3 B prospects and that would be that.

    “would you trade Dominic Brown, Michael Taylor, Antonio Bastardo, Lou Marson, Carlos Carrasco for the 35th and 32nd draft picks in 2011?”

    If your Philly ofcourse and you try to get the extension for Doc. Hamels Doc and Myers next season would be a hell of a big 3 for the next 4-5 yrs. in the NL.

  24. jason July 8th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    What if the Yankees added to the trade with a swap of Melky or Gardner for Rios or Wells.
    The players are not on equal levels but the Yankees would be taking on a tremendous amount of salary and returning a league average or slightly better CF.

  25. mark July 8th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    Joba doesn’t have his head screwed on straight. I’d deal him over Hughes.

    And you have to be crazy not to want a guy as good as Halladay.

  26. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    NO HYPE-No one’s ever a lock for the championship. We’d be favorites, for sure. But a lock? No way.

  27. John in Ohio July 8th, 2009 at 10:17 am

    Let’s not forget that Halladay’s no-trade puts him in the driver’s seat, and means that the Jays won’t necessarily get the best deal they would hope for. They may just be in a take it or leave it situation with the Yanks. Halladay and A.J. are buds, and the Yankees would most certainly offer a huge extension.

  28. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 10:17 am

    Tom B
    July 8th, 2009 at 10:12 am

    face it, the jays are not trading the best pitcher in baseball to another team in their division. i don’t care if we sent them our entire scranton team, it’s just not happening.

    ==============

    I’m with SJ on this, if the price is right, they’ll do it. I don’t think GMs care about that as much as you think.

  29. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 10:17 am

    I would add the Angels in the mix. If, for no other reason, they have the money and prospects to do it and Doc would love pitching in Anaheim.

    I’m not sure he wants to change leagues. Which is why I’m not sure about Philly.

    Boston, NY and Anaheim? He would approve deals to those teams.

  30. Trevor July 8th, 2009 at 10:17 am

    Yep agree with Pete. Cashman didn’t want to trade him for Santana and that’s when everyone was calling him a bust. So he’s going to trade him now that he’s pitching well? And I don’t see him trading Joba either who has a higher upside then Hughes.
    Maybe if the Yankees needed another pitcher MAYBE I could see Cash dealing for Halladay.
    Agree %100 with Pete RS aren’t that big on trading prospects either. I think Halladay goes to Philly. They have the prospects and are likely to want to trade them for someone like Halladay. And it’s a easy league to pitch in.

  31. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:18 am

    Patrick-I disagree that the Jays won’t contend for 2 years. In fact, I would argue that they’re contenders this year and could be really legitimate by next year.

  32. Hokiehill July 8th, 2009 at 10:18 am

    Wait… I either missed it or have a short memory…it’s a tough decision obviously and it depends on which guy is really what he looks like right now. if you had asked last year it’s a no-brainer that you deal Hughes and keep Joba, but if you had nothing but this year to draw from I would lean the other way. You also have to decide whether you believe Joba’s current MPH issues are injury related or brain related…if it’s the former that supports keeping Hughes again. of course if it’s just mental or laziness, are we confident we can get him out of that funk? if so, then it’s back to keeping Joba…today I think I would keep Hughes, but tomorrow I would keep Joba…

  33. smith July 8th, 2009 at 10:19 am

    Joba doesn’t have a good head on his shoulders. I’d deal him and keep Hughes.

  34. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 10:19 am

    “What if the Yankees added to the trade with a swap of Melky or Gardner for Rios or Wells.”

    The Jays don’t want either. And the first deal you presented was a joke.

    “The players are not on equal levels but the Yankees would be taking on a tremendous amount of salary and returning a league average or slightly better CF.”

    The Yankees aren’t taking Wells contract, that will be what leads TOR to deal Doc to the NL.

  35. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:19 am

    SJ44-You sure he wants to go to NY? The look on his face after the Damon HR was not promising.

  36. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:19 am

    Unless he doesn’t want to bat, why would Halladay not want to go to the NL? It’s an easier league to pitch in.

  37. sab July 8th, 2009 at 10:20 am

    The Angels? I’ve been hearing that their owner is willing to spend all his money and other than matthews and hunter (which weren’t that big – the matthews signing was just plain stupid) he hasn’t done squat – when AROD opted out and was a FA moreno (or is it moron-o) insinuated that something big was going to happen and he never once sniffed AROD – he HAD teixeira on his team and didn’t bother to open up the wallet, he let his stud closer go without even bothering to pay, he could have had the best hitter in the game in manny and chickened out, he nickled and dimed abreu..

    whats the point? – why would he trade 5 prospects only for a one year rental when he obviously isn’t going to pay the man once his contract ends in 2010….so i think the angels are out…

  38. Patrick from CT July 8th, 2009 at 10:20 am

    Having Doc would be something! but I’d guess the odds are against it. The price will be higher for the Yankees or Red Sox because of AL East issues.
    If he does get traded to a team not named the Yankees, let’s pray it is a team in the NL.
    Doc is one of the top 3 pitchers in the game if not the best pitcher in the game.

  39. reginald July 8th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    The only way the Mets could get a call through to JP Riccardi is if the Wilpons are open to trading Jose Reyes. Putting Reyes in a package with Niese and Flores would get it done. Mets would of course target bats in the offseason: Bay and Nick Johnson. That’d prep the Mets as the favorites for the NL east crown.

  40. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    There’s nothing Halladay has ever said to suggest he wouldn’t change leagues. If the Phillies extend him I have no doubt he would go to Philly.

  41. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    “The Yankees aren’t taking Wells contract, that will be what leads TOR to deal Doc to the NL.”

    This makes no sense to me why Toronto will press the Yankees to take the 107+M left on Wells contract and not the NL teams?

  42. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    Brandon,

    You gotta move off the contract peddling. That’s not going to happen.

    Nobody is taking on Vernon Wells’ contract in a Halladay deal.

    JP isn’t going to tie the two together because it reduces his return on what he will get because of the money involved.

    He’s not lessening his return package by including Wells, or Rios for that matter, in a deal.

    This is strictly Halladay and Halladay alone.

    He’s also not taking back a bunch of prospects in return.

    He needs a major league ready, top of the rotation type of starting pitcher in return. He’s not getting a bunch of AA kids who may turn out to be good.

    The Red Sox with Buchholz and the Yankees with either Hughes or Chamberlain top whatever Philly puts out there right out of the gate.

    He knows it and that’s why he went public yesterday.

  43. Rishi July 8th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    poor SJ is going to get carpel tunnel typing the same things over and over again for the last 2 days :)

  44. BLACKACCORD July 8th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    i’m not sure if the phillies have the prospects to get halladay.. they might have to give up j.a. happ or Drabek (who’s a stud pitcher) and michael taylor or dominic brown.. jays might also ask for a ML ready position player..

  45. GC July 8th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    Santana never made sense, especially given his injury concerns and the twinkies demands. He’d be a 6-7 inning pitcher getting clubbed in the AL east.

    Age is moot and regardless Pete is wrong on another account. The twins GM muffed the deal losing Hughes & Kennedy two legit prospects both offered trying to be greedy. It seems our own (inept) GM pulled that deal to avoid being played and went to Plan B (budget for & get Sabathia and another between Burnett, Lowe, etc.). One of cashmans few good moves but one that cost him the playoffs last year and possibly his job this year. (the fact Ca$h didn’t know Kennedy (wedding planner) was a flake is sad but brian’s story. We were sold a bill of goods on him.)

    OTOH Halladay is a proven “AL East” pitcher who can go more innings. There is noone on the yankees not expendable for him.

  46. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    Actually, Joba HAS pitched better than Hughes even this season. Looking at them as starters Joba’s ERA is still lower. Yes, I know the Orioles start inflated it. If you take that out take it his shutouts as well.

    As for bullpen Hughes, it’s unfair to compare becasue we know Joba would dominate in the pen if given the chance.So I’d keep Joba.

  47. BD July 8th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    I think the cost of acquiring Halliday is being exaggerated by a lot of people. He’s only signed through 2010. Whoever gets him is going to have to pay a boatload of cash to keep him. A year and a half of service on his remaining contract with Toronto is not going to be worth parting with 4 super-elite prospects, as some people seem to think. Young, cost-controlled studs like Joba, Hughes, and Bucholz are incredibly valuable assets these days. With a nine-figure extension looming for Doc, I don’t think teams will be lining up en masse to offer up MULTIPLE prospects who are projected to be MLB stars.

  48. Andrew July 8th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    Gordon Beckham is a bigtime infield prospect, and if the Sox offer him and lefty starter Aaron Poreda how is that not a good place to start towards them getting Halladay (with other guys added into the deal)? The sell to get Halladay to agree is he doesn’t have to switch leagues, the AL Central is a weaker division compared to the AL East and he joins a decent rotation with Danks and Gavin Floyd plus isn’t subjected to as brutal a fanbase as Philly or NYC. Seems at least plausible.

  49. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    I’m with SJ44 on this, the Phillies don’t have a Joba or a Hughes to offer Toronto.

  50. Mike July 8th, 2009 at 10:24 am

    I think we are all forgetting that Roy has a full no trade clause . and he’ll want an extension ! .

  51. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:24 am

    I really hope he goes out of our league. The Angels w/Halladay would be scary.

  52. raymagnetic July 8th, 2009 at 10:25 am

    “The Yankees aren’t taking Wells contract, that will be what leads TOR to deal Doc to the NL.”

    If I’m the Yankees and I have to take on Wells contract to get Halladay I’m doing it.

    Said it last night but I’d much rather have Wells and Halladay next year than Jason Bay or Matt Holliday and no Halladay.

  53. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 10:25 am

    Joba hasn’t pitched better than Hughes this year. Don’t look at ERA. Look at how the two guys have pitched.

    Hughes has been the better pitcher this year.

    Joba isn’t dominating in the bullpen with the stuff he has shown for most of the year.

  54. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    He might not want an extension for a chance to pitch in the playoffs. The trade doesn’t effect his free agent status.

  55. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    SJ he will not get traded to the Yankees unless Cashman

    A. Gives up the farm & B. Take on Wells contract.

    (That’s going to be the requirement for us to get him)

    When we say no. JP will deal him to the NL w/o the Wells contract or Rios contract. Lets review, for the NYY to get him they have to take on Vernon Wells or Alex Rios’ contract, for the NL JP won’t think about adding a contract b/c Doc wouldn’t be in thier division, so he’ll do the deal if the return is 5 tops prospects like Olney said.

  56. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    SJ44-I disagree. Move Joba to the pen, he’s dominating. Maybe with a 95 as opposed to his old 98 MPH fastball, but dominating.

  57. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:27 am

    I’m being serious about Halladay not wanting to come here. New Yankee Stadium launching pad may cost us.

  58. William Buckner July 8th, 2009 at 10:27 am

    Just to throw this out, wouldn’t you consider taking on Rios contract if that helped you make the deal.

    Yankees are going to need corner OF help. He’s a very good defensive RF. I think his bat is OK and has a possibility to be good.

    I also completely agree with the way SJ suggested it would go down. I’d bet choose Joba or Hughes, choose Romine or Jackson, choose 2 B level prospects.

  59. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 10:27 am

    “If I’m the Yankees and I have to take on Wells contract to get Halladay I’m doing it. ”

    Have you seen that damn contract :?

    “Said it last night but I’d much rather have Wells and Halladay next year than Jason Bay or Matt Holliday and no Halladay.”

    Wells is also injury prone.

  60. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 10:28 am

    The White Sox aren’t trading Gordon Beckham for Doc.

    They wouldn’t put him in the Peavy deal. They aren’t putting him in the Doc deal.

  61. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 10:28 am

    I am bored with Halladay talk, so I am reposting an earlier question I raised.

    I just read the Yahoo recap of the game last night. CC said he thought it helped him last night that he had faced the Twins so many times before when he was in the AL Central.

    We all know it helps the batters when they have seen a pitcher before. How much of an advantage do you think there is when the pitcher knows the hitters? And wouldn’t you think at some point they would cancel each other out?? Or would the pitcher ultimately have a greater advantage

  62. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 10:28 am

    “I disagree that the Jays won’t contend for 2 years. In fact, I would argue that they’re contenders this year and could be really legitimate by next year”

    They are one of the top 4 or 5 teams in the AL this year but the fact remains – they play in the same division as the Red Sox, Yankees and Rays. They don’t have much of a shot this year and probably next year.

  63. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:29 am

    “SJ he will not get traded to the Yankees unless Cashman

    A. Gives up the farm & B. Take on Wells contract.

    (That’s going to be the requirement for us to get him)

    When we say no. JP will deal him to the NL w/o the Wells contract or Rios contract. Lets review, for the NYY to get him they have to take on Vernon Wells or Alex Rios’ contract, for the NL JP won’t think about adding a contract b/c Doc wouldn’t be in thier division, so he’ll do the deal if the return is 5 tops prospects like Olney said.”

    Brandon,
    I disagree and we’ll see how it plays out because JP would be stupid to turn down a trade with the Yankees if he likes those players better than the Phillies package. It still comes to down to how JP feels about the players offered, not what BA has to say about them.

  64. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    5 players is the word CIK.

    2 ML ready and 3 B prospects. He’s not getting delt to the Yankees w/o taking Rios or Wells contract.

  65. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    Patrick-Wait an offseason. IF they keep Hallday, and IF thwey make good moves in the offseason, by next year they could leapfrog the Rays and be right there with Boston and NY.

  66. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    thwey is they.

  67. RMEL July 8th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    To me its a 2 team race…Phils or White Sox and who jumps 1st….my money is on the Phils

  68. Rebecca--Optimist Prime July 8th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    Aside from that Cleveland start, I’ve been more comfortable all year with Hughes on the mound.

    Doesn’t mean Hughes has been pitching better…but the again it sort of does.

    The Jays, I’ve heard, are looking for a SS. If the Mets are willing to part with, say, Reyes and Niese, it might stand a chance.

  69. sab July 8th, 2009 at 10:32 am

    SJ44 – why wouldn’t wells be a part of any trade?

    thats 100 million dollars that ricciardi will either save or be able to use to get better players –

    if the economy actually does play a part in negotiations as everyone, including you, say then wells getting traded is a HUGE part of any trade..

    not wanting to bring past examples up – but josh beckett is not on the redsox today if Mike Lowell wasn’t part of that deal – the sox had no choice but to pick up that horrible contract (at that time) – even tyhough they included hanley ramirez and anibel sanchez (who threw a no hitter and unfortunatley has been hurt ever since)

  70. Doreen July 8th, 2009 at 10:33 am

    When is the trade deadline over?

    I don’t think I can read the same arguments everyday until it’s done! :lol:

    Here we all were thinking the Yankees would be looking for another bullpen arm, may a 5th starter (depending on Wang’s health), but no real “blockbuster” deals on the horizon. Going merrily along our way. Hoping the Yankees would just make a nice little addition to boost their pennant drive.

    And now, THIS. Halladay Hooplah. :lol:

  71. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Brandon,

    You are wrong. JP has already tried to get the Yankees to take on that contract and was turned down.

    It doesn’t matter what he wants. It matters what DOC wants.

    Buster Olney also had Santana and Tex going to the Red Sox.

    How did that work out?

    Trust me, whomever get Doc isn’t taking on Wells’ deal because it means you would not have to surrender an A List prospect in the deal. That’s why JP isn’t tying the two together.

    It also isn’t going to take 5 A list prospects either.

    No team is going to do that.

    You are looking at this the wrong way.

    Toronto is never, and I mean NEVER going to get value to value for Doc from ANYBODY.

    They have to look for 3 things:

    1. Send him to a team HE wants to go to because Doc, not JP, controls the process via the full no trade clause.

    2. The team that gets him has to sign him (or at least agree to down the road) to an extension or he has no reason to waive his no trade clause. That further reduces the number of teams able to get him.

    3. He has to make sure the first two components are in place, and then make a deal that exceeds the value of the two first round picks he gets for losing him after next year.

    That’s it.

    Its a price the Yankees and Red Sox can easily meet if they so choose. So can Anaheim.

    Philadelphia? Perhaps.

    They are a team though that is loathe to give out huge deals for pitchers. Will they do it now?

    Time will tell.

  72. Andrew July 8th, 2009 at 10:34 am

    “They wouldn’t put him in the Peavy deal. They aren’t putting him in the Doc deal.”

    But, Halladay is also much much > Peavy. Proven AL track record, would be worth the extension he would require whereas Peavy, not so much, his health/shelf life projects better than Peavy, etc.

    Just saying/playing Devil’s Advocate, but ChiTown to me is a more realistic possibility than the Yankees trading a ton of prospects, having to tie up even more payroll in a long contract for a starter (granted, a great one, but it makes it harder to spend on an offensive free agent like maybe Carl Crawford or the like that may become available in the next few years if 3 starters have huge contracts) and also have to pay some sort of price for being a division rival.

    I think it’s Philly or Chicago, or nothing at all.

  73. Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    george July 8th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    Joba is a head case. Trade him and keep Hughes.

    —————-

    Hughes was the headcase last season. My how times have changed.

    Joba is much more upside than Hughes and it’s really not all that close.

  74. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    I’ll say it one more time then stop at the risk of being annoying: Doc may not want to come to NY anyway. Who’s to say Yankee Stadium appeals to him?

  75. Steve B July 8th, 2009 at 10:37 am

    “not wanting to bring past examples up – but josh beckett is not on the redsox today if Mike Lowell wasn’t part of that deal – the sox had no choice but to pick up that horrible contract (at that time)”

    Different economy. That deal gets made this year and the Marlins aren’t getting A-list prospects back or they’re keeping Lowell’s contract.

  76. Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    SJ44-I disagree. Move Joba to the pen, he’s dominating. Maybe with a 95 as opposed to his old 98 MPH fastball, but dominating.

    —————-

    No, he’s not. Have you watched this guy pitch this season?

    The guy doesn’t even get warmed up to throw 95 MPH until he’s already amassed 20-30 in-game pitches.

    That would not translate well to the pen. Even Cashman has made that point clear.

  77. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    People need to stop comparing the Lowell inclusion in the Beckett deal to Wells situation. The difference with the monies involved is night and day. You’re talking more than 107M dollars.

  78. BX Bomber July 8th, 2009 at 10:39 am

    Trevor:

    I disagree that Joba has a higher upside than Hughes. Hughes is 22 and shown flashes of brlillance. Joba is 25 (i think) and shown domination out of the pen, but has not shown he can be a full time starter. I just think Hughes has a much higher upside and we may have seen Joba’s upside peak.

  79. Steve B July 8th, 2009 at 10:39 am

    “Joba is much more upside than Hughes and it’s really not all that close.”

    Don’t know about MUCH more, but agree he has more. That said, I see Hughes as the guy more likely to meet his upside.

  80. Rebecca--Optimist Prime July 8th, 2009 at 10:40 am

    I could still see the Phillies as the favorite here. There need for a SP is much greater than the Yankees or the Sox at the moment.

    Actually, what the Phillies really need is someone not named Brad Lidge closing their games…

  81. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 10:40 am

    107 million, in the middle of a recession, attendance is down, and every team, except for a chosen few, taking big financial hits.

    Its a different world folks.

    There isn’t any contract pawning on this one.

    Its Doc and Doc alone.

  82. Paul from Cali July 8th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    I believe the Yankees WILL throw the farm system at Toronto, if for no other reason then to keep him out of Boston.

  83. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    “Brandon,

    You are wrong. JP has already tried to get the Yankees to take on that contract and was turned down.

    It doesn’t matter what he wants. It matters what DOC wants.”

    And he’ll try again. What’s so hard to figure about that ? For the “Yankees” to get him they will be asked to take the Wells or Rios contract. That’s the only fair way JP will accept Doc in his division + the 5 top prospects. It’s that simple. That’s what you do.

    This has to be the craziest statement you have ever made, how many times hasn’t the Yankees taken contract dumps, you think TOR would just deal him straight up in the division. SJ come back to us, you know TOR wants to win in this division too.

  84. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Giuseppe Franco-Totally disagree again.

    You’re forgetting his fastball would go up about three ticks.

    We’ll see eventually. H’s gonna be moved to the pen when he reaches his innings cap. I’m sure he’ll be dominant again there.

    And I’m not advocating Joba to the bullpen, by the way.

  85. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Joba is only 9 months older than Hughes. Look it up.

  86. haiku-man July 8th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    But but but Pete,doesn’t Hallady have a NT clause,and want to go to a team that has a shot at a WS appearance?

    I hope the Yankees never put Cerevelli up for any trade,he calls a good game.

  87. sab July 8th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    steve b – thats my point….

    if the yankees are taking on wells contract – they won’t have to give up hughes or joba – and if ricciardi is told he HAS to reduce payroll – then including wells in a trade of halladay is mandatory and he would be willing to take a wang instead of joba and the other 3 AAA pitchers/players..

    by the way if wang is healthy and himself – that may turn out better than joba or hughes as at least wang has proven to be a winner at the big league level…

  88. Trevor July 8th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    Hughes and Joba are both 23.

  89. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 10:43 am

    “I believe the Yankees WILL throw the farm system at Toronto, if for no other reason then to keep him out of Boston.”

    Boston’s FO already told Olney they would rather go for a 5 tool stud ML ready or near ready type player. They aren’t dealing thier top arms for Doc, they prefer a Hanley or a Justin Smoak from Texas.

  90. The Ghost July 8th, 2009 at 10:43 am

    I really hope Hughes name again doesn’t get dangled out there for a month as trade bait for Halladay then the Yanks can’t pull the trigger. I think the fact that Hughes had to live up to the hype that the Yankees kept him instead of trading for Santana played on his psyche.

  91. m July 8th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    See everyone loved the umpires’ “ruling”.

    See here’s the thing.

    First, why not say this after the game?

    Second, he still got the call wrong.

    Another Halladay?

  92. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    BX Bomber-If you’re talking about domination as a starter that Hughes has shown and Joba hasn’t I disagree. Hughes has had 2 shutouts. Joba, in fact, I believe also has (from last year) as well as a very good start against Cleveland. Remember when he outdueled Beckett 1-0 for seven innings? And Joba, like Hughes has shown domination out of the pen. Given these facts, if you look at ERA Joba’s is better.

  93. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:45 am

    Joba’s birthdate 09/23/85

    Hughes birthdate 06/24/86

  94. Bridge Jumper July 8th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    “lets shift the debate and assume the Yankees are going to do the deal but have to decide between Joba or Hughes…who would you part with?”

    Joba

    Joba, Melky and Austin Jackson is all that I’m willing to give up for Halladay though. I think that’s a pretty good deal for Toronto.

  95. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    The Phillies are “favorites” based only on apparent need.

    If the Yankees ever put Chamberlain or Hughes on the table, nobody matches up except Boston if they put Buchholz on the table.

    The question is, will Boston or NY do it?

    Before you jump and say “no”, think for a minute.

    Everybody loves prospects. We all talk about “ceiling” and “potential” and all of those lovely cliches.

    However, players fall into two catagories:

    Known and unknown.

    As exciting as Hughes, Chamberlain and Buchholz are, they are unknowns.

    Doc is a known.

    32 is “old” to people who are 22. It isn’t to a guy like Doc.

    Knowns seperate winners from losers in tight pennant races.

    The guy is a BIG fish.

    Question is, are the Yankees or Red Sox willing to go deep sea fishing here?

    The Yankees are actually in a better position than Boston on this one.

    If you lose one of the young guns, you still have the other.

    If Boston trades Buchholz, they don’t have another young gun close to being big league ready.

    Bowden translates more to the bullpen than a front end of a rotation.

    Plus, the Red Sox need a bat.

    I wouldn’t be so quick to count the Yankees out of this one.

  96. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    God forbid Buster Olney ever being wrong about what Boston is going to do.

  97. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    haiku-man: Calls a good game is a myth. Baseball prospectus did a sudy and concluded it doesn’t matter which catcher calls which game. If you admit to game calling as a way to judge a player’s worth you’re admitting to believing that the stat of catcher ERA has worth, and any stathead worth his salt would tell you it’s a useless stat.

  98. Dr. Cox July 8th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    “I believe the Yankees WILL throw the farm system at Toronto, if for no other reason then to keep him out of Boston.”

    This will not happen. Cashman is too smart and will recognize whether Boston is making legit offers or bluffing to ge the Yankees to raise their stakes.

    They arent just going to GET Holliday just to keep him from going to Boston. That’s just…well…stupid.

  99. dennis-Costanza July 8th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    IMO, today is just another day to be thankful that we are fans and or season ticket holders of organizations that are well run and care about winning every year. How disapointing would it be to hear the news re:Halladay if you are a Jays fan or season ticket holder.

    -dennis

  100. Five Iron From Fenway July 8th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    Lost in the Halladay discussion is the where has Joba’s MPH gone question?
    Has anyone given a realistic answer? The answer is not that he is back in the rotation. Throughout the minors and into his first season in NY he was a started and was 95-97.
    I happen to think the arm injury lingers in some lost strength.
    Can it be mechanics, mental, other?
    He has proven to some extent he can get it way up into the 90s the question is how and when does it come back.

  101. Bronx Jeers July 8th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    Honestly though if I don’t see why Roy wouldn’t want to go to the Phillies.

    A. they are the reigning champs.
    b. His presence in their rotation virtually locks them into the playoffs.
    c. He’s going to dominate in the NL east.

    The sticking point may be the contract extension which i would assume any team that gives up substantial prospects would want. Does Roy want to pitch there for what would be pretty much the remainder of his career?

  102. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    SJ44-Would you offer Joba AND Hughes?

  103. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    SJ44-I disagree. Move Joba to the pen, he’s dominating. Maybe with a 95 as opposed to his old 98 MPH fastball, but dominating.

    ===============

    Joba is hardly dominating. He’s getting behind hitters, walking them, throwing 100 pitches in 5 innings, and calling it a good game. Also, he is certainly not averaging 95mph on his FB. He might touch it a couple times after pitch 80, but it’s been consistently lower. Velocity aside, he’s still not ready to come out of the gate for the 8th.

    The plan should not be trade Hughes for Halladay and THEN put Joba in the pen.

    And Joba does seem like a headcase and with his magical disappearing velocity (I’m sorry, mechanics isn’t the only problem), I’d move him before Hughes.

  104. m July 8th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    Has anyone seen any quotes from Cashman? Or is he hunkered down in some war room some place?

  105. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    “Joba, Melky and Austin Jackson is all that I’m willing to give up for Halladay though. I think that’s a pretty good deal for Toronto.”

    JP won’t think that’s a good deal.

  106. Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    Steve B July 8th, 2009 at 10:39 am

    “Joba is much more upside than Hughes and it’s really not all that close.”

    Don’t know about MUCH more, but agree he has more. That said, I see Hughes as the guy more likely to meet his upside.

    ——————

    It’s amazing how the perception of these two have changed over the past year.

    Last year it was Hughes who couldn’t handle pitching in the majors and needed to toughen up.

    He’s the guy who went 0-4, 6.62 ERA last year and didn’t pitch well until late September.

    Hell, SJ was criticizing Hughes in May and comparing the upbringings of Hughes and Joba suggesting that Joba was the much tougher kid on the mound like this was The Outsiders all over again comparing the greasers to the socials.

    They’ve only played half the season. Even if Joba doesn’t perform much better in the second half it doesn’t mean he’s a headcase that’s incapable of turning things around.

    Yankee fans simply cannot stomach growing pains with young kids. They just can’t. And they wonder why the Rays and Red Sox are much better in player development than the Yanks are.

    You can’t develop a strong and youthful core if you don’t have any patience when they struggle. It’s all part of the game.

  107. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    Five Iron From Fenway-You’re right. What up with the MPH loss with Joba?

  108. Five Iron From Fenway July 8th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    meant – “starter”

  109. Steve B July 8th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    Sab:

    You’re missing the bigger point. Ricciardi isn’t moving Halladay to dump salary. He’s doing as a mode to improve his club for the future. Adding Wells diminishes Halladay’s value and his ability to get the return he needs. It’s not going to happen. Furthermore, Cashman isn’t stupid enough to take on Wells’ contract.

  110. Rebecca--Optimist Prime July 8th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    Dude, guys, I don’t know if you heard…

    …but Bartolo Colon is, uh, missing…

  111. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:50 am

    By the way, Bowden was slightly outpitched the other day by Nova at SWB.

  112. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    Brandon,

    Do you really believe the Red Sox are going to tell Buster Olney what they are going to do? I mean, seriously, come on.

    Hanley Ramirez isn’t on the trade market. He’s not going anywhere, nor is Smoak.

    No team in baseball tells members of the media what they are going to do. They throw some bones out there to give them something to put on their blogs or notebooks. That’s it.

    Boston and the Yankees will be all over this because its Roy Freaking Halladay.

    Doesn’t mean either team will get him but, you are dreaming if you don’t think each organization will spend the next several weeks figuring out a way to do it.

  113. Nico July 8th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    My best guess is a team that’s not even on the list

    Texas Rangers,

    they have a farm system, they can take on the money (according to some blogs/espn/si)

    still the best bet imo

  114. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    Stultus Magnus-To clarify: I NEVER said put Joba in the pen. I also never said he was dominating now. What I said is IF Joba were in the pen (and he’ll be there when his innings cap is reached) he WOULD dominate with a fastball that would probably jump about 3 MPH and consistently hit 95.

  115. m July 8th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    If Ricciardi had a chance to move Wells’ contract? He does it in a heartbeat.

    Not only because it’s the smart business move. But it also allows him to rectify the mistake.

  116. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    Bronx Jeers
    July 8th, 2009 at 10:47 am
    Honestly though if I don’t see why Roy wouldn’t want to go to the Phillies.

    A. they are the reigning champs.
    b. His presence in their rotation virtually locks them into the playoffs.
    c. He’s going to dominate in the NL east.

    The sticking point may be the contract extension which i would assume any team that gives up substantial prospects would want. Does Roy want to pitch there for what would be pretty much the remainder of his career?

    ***
    I thinks is the most logical quote of the morning. It makes so much more sense for Halladay to be a Philly than a Yank

  117. Doreen July 8th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    Rebecca -

    Missing how?

  118. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    “You’re missing the bigger point. Ricciardi isn’t moving Halladay to dump salary. He’s doing as a mode to improve his club for the future. Adding Wells diminishes Halladay’s value and his ability to get the return he needs. It’s not going to happen. Furthermore, Cashman isn’t stupid enough to take on Wells’ contract.”

    Then Doc will go to the NL it’s that simple.

  119. Five Iron From Fenway July 8th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    Maybe the 3 extra mph from Joba went to Hughes this year.
    Both Joba and Hughes are still kids and learning the craft. They will have up and down starts and up and down seasons for some time. Heck, look at Beckett, one of the best pitchers in the league and he alternates good and bad years.
    But, I would really like to see Joba back to his dominating self. I said it early in the season. When Joba gets ball, gets sign, throws ball he is at his best – by far. When he starts shaking off the catcher, wondering around and slowing tempo he is a dramatically poorer pitcher.

  120. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    I know its been done before by other teams, but I just cannot imagine the Jays trading their ace to a division rival. It doesn’t make sense

  121. Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Giuseppe Franco-Totally disagree again.

    You’re forgetting his fastball would go up about three ticks.

    We’ll see eventually. H’s gonna be moved to the pen when he reaches his innings cap. I’m sure he’ll be dominant again there.

    And I’m not advocating Joba to the bullpen, by the way.

    ——————-

    Well, Cashman disagrees with you and his opinion counts more than both of ours.

    Joba may not hit his innings cap until mid September. From this point on, he has to average 6.0 IP per start to hit 130 IP by early September.

    Since he has only thrown 6.0 IP in a game just a handful of times this season, do you really expect him to average 6.0 IP the rest of the way?

    That’s not bloody likely – which means Joba ain’t going to the pen anytime soon. By then, he may find something and get into a groove and perform much better.

    Then people like you won’t be so obsessed about his velocity and ready to kick him while he’s down.

  122. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Nico,

    Texas has no money. They couldn’t make payroll the other week and had to borrow like $15 million from MLB.

    Until they get new ownership they aren’t going to take on more payroll or make any big deals.

  123. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    The CWS don’t know where he is. Colon didn’t show up for his rehab assignment or something

  124. Rebecca--Optimist Prime July 8th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Doreen: As in…missing.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/.....6624.story

  125. m July 8th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    Nico,

    SJ brought up the fact that the Rangers had to borrow $$$ from mlb, so it’s probably unlikely they can extend Halladay. Thus less of a package for Toronto, harder to sell to the fans.

  126. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    SJ, agreed he will most likely land on the Phillies.

  127. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    RP doesn’t have a chance to move Wells contract because nobody can afford it, not even the Yankees.

  128. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    Giuseppe Franco.

    Growing pains are tough for Yankee fans, agreed. Last year the Yanks did the right thing and sent Hughes down after a horrible beginning. Joba, while sporting a nice ERA, is not doing his job as a starter consistently and some of the issues are not mechanics, they are stubbornness and fear (of challenging hitters).

    I’m not saying he doesn’t have upside, all I’m saying is when Hughes and IPK had problems, they were sent down to make a point and to have them iron out some kinks.

  129. 6 pound 8 ounce baby joba July 8th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    White sox aren’t even in it, their financial situation has changed due to low attendance, so they can’t afford Halladay. The difference between this and the Johan deal is that a. Our minor league depth is deeper now. B. Halladay just about guarantees us a championship. Doc, CC, and AJ have to be the most intimidating 1-2-3 combo possible in a 5 or 7 game series. C. Halladay has loads of experience in the AL east, which is very useful when you face the Red Sox and Rays over 30 times a year. D. Halladay is Burnett’s former mentor, he could be the same kind of mentor for Joba. E. I honestly think the extension he gets will be less than johan’s. Doc will be 34 when his current contract runs out, and I bet we could either tack on two years at $23mm per, or just add $10mm to his salary for ’10 and let him walk after that. Yeah, Halladay might want an extension, but is the best pitcher in the game really going to want to skip free agency while at an age where he could still get, say 6 years at $25mm per? Doc would earn more $ on the open market, I’m about 95% sure. Send romine, Hughes, nova, jorge vasquez, Shelley Duncan, and edwar ramirez and bring doc to the Bronx. Romine Hughes and nova in the same deal? That’s the best the jays will find.

  130. Rebecca--Optimist Prime July 8th, 2009 at 10:55 am

    If the Jays traded Clemens to the Yankees, which they did, they’ll trade Halladay as well.

    For the Yankees all it really comes down to is what price are they willing to pay.

  131. haiku-man July 8th, 2009 at 10:55 am

    Don’t forget that Beckett dropped the bomb,last month that,he’d be willing to go to the Yankees,if the RS,didn’t Show him the money!

  132. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 10:55 am

    I wouldn’t trade Hughes and Joba for Doc. That won’t happen.

    One or the other would have to be in a deal. Not both.

    As far as Hughes and Joba are concerned, both are young guys who experienced growing pains. It happens.

    The difference between the two is, Hughes has never been out of shape, hard to coach and hard to catch. Joba is.

    Doesn’t make Joba a bad guy or anything like that.

    Just means, he’s a tougher nut to crack.

    Joba has greater upside career-wise based on his potential.

    But, there’s more to being a successful ML pitcher than potential.

    Ultimately, I hope Joba figures that out soon and stops making it hard on himself.

    Both very talented kids though. The Yankees are lucky to have both at the same time.

  133. Five Iron From Fenway July 8th, 2009 at 10:55 am

    Texas just had to borrow money from MLB. They cannot take salary.

    SJ – How is Nova now valued around the league? Same for Macallister?

    Nova was selected and returned in the Rule 5 process, but he has really put together and outstanding season to date and is in AAA. What is the potential.

    Macallister has one pitch. It is a great sinking fastball and he has good command. But, some reports are that he is Wang-lite.

    Are either of these guys going to supplant or at least be in the neighborhood of Joba or Hughes.

    BTW where in the world is Jairo Heredia?

  134. Cash is King July 8th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    “SJ, agreed he will most likely land on the Phillies.”

    I’m not so sure SJ agreed with that, I thought he said the Phillies are one of the favorites along with Yankees, Boston and the Angels.

  135. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    “Missing how?”

    He took off, nobody knows where he is.

    From rotoworld:

    Bartolo Colon, slated to start Thursday at Charlotte, is not with the Triple-A club and hasn’t contacted the White Sox to inform them of his whereabouts.

    In other words, the big man is missing. “Efforts to contact his agent have been successful,” said GM Kenny Williams. “Their efforts to contact their client have not been so successful. … If he doesn’t show up Thursday in Charlotte, somebody will take the mound. This train is going to keep rolling.” Colon has been on the disabled list since early June with swelling in his left knee and will obviously need to show up for his rehab assignment if he hopes to make his way back to Chicago.

  136. Doreen July 8th, 2009 at 10:57 am

    Rebecca -

    The WS don’t seem too concerned, based on that article, do they?

  137. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    Rebecca–Optimist Prime
    July 8th, 2009 at 10:55 am
    If the Jays traded Clemens to the Yankees, which they did, they’ll trade Halladay as well.

    ***
    umm, no. JP Ricciardi is not Gord Ash

  138. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    Stultus Magnus-To clarify: I NEVER said put Joba in the pen. I also never said he was dominating now. What I said is IF Joba were in the pen (and he’ll be there when his innings cap is reached) he WOULD dominate with a fastball that would probably jump about 3 MPH and consistently hit 95.

    ===========

    Ok, well I disagree. I don’t think his fastball would magically get faster in the pen. And I don’t think his control would appear again. I think there are some issues he’s dealing with, healthwise and headwise, that will follow him until they are rectified. And by that account, I don’t think he’ll dominate in the pen.

  139. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    Giuseppe Franco-What are you talking about?

    “People like me” are one of Joba’s biggest supporters. I’m a HUGE Joba fan. Anyway, say his innings cap is not reached in the regular season. We’ll probably see him in the pen if we make the playoffs. Then we’ll see.

    His velocity IS important. He was hitting 95 to 96 as a starter in the minors. He was doing it as a starter last year. Now he’s not and IMO that’s a big deal.

    I don’t know what your issue is that you need to start talking about how I “kick players when they’re down” and “obsess over the velocity change”. OF COURSE I obsess. This is IMO his biggest issue. I think if that comes back we’ll see the old Joba. Now stop talking as if you know best and everybody else is an idiot, it’s called an OPINION and I have one just like you do.

  140. Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 10:59 am

    Giuseppe Franco.

    Growing pains are tough for Yankee fans, agreed. Last year the Yanks did the right thing and sent Hughes down after a horrible beginning. Joba, while sporting a nice ERA, is not doing his job as a starter consistently and some of the issues are not mechanics, they are stubbornness and fear (of challenging hitters).

    I’m not saying he doesn’t have upside, all I’m saying is when Hughes and IPK had problems, they were sent down to make a point and to have them iron out some kinks.

    —————–

    That’s not going to happen. They don’t have enough starters to mess with Joba right now.

    I don’t disagree that Joba needs a kick in the ass. But he’s not really all that much different than any other 23 yr old kid.

    The Yanks just don’t hve any choice but to leave him where he is and hope he starts to feel it.

  141. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Stultus Magnus-Well that’s a fair enough opinion in any case.

  142. Rebecca--Optimist Prime July 8th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    “Rebecca -

    The WS don’t seem too concerned, based on that article, do they?”

    This is Bartolo Colon…it can’t be that hard to lose a man of that….uh…stature…

  143. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    I don’t think the Phillies are the favorites to land him. I think the Yankees and Red Sox are for a couple of reasons:

    1. They have better prospects than the Phillies.
    2. They have more money than the Phillies.
    3. They are in the AL and I’m not sure Doc wants to change league.
    4 Doc has a full no trade. Meaning, he and not JP controls where he goes.

    Suppose he doesn’t want to stay in Philly for the next 4 years? He isn’t going to go there for a year and a half to leave because Philly wouldn’t be surrendering the cache of prospects needed to land him for a 1 1/2 year term.

    I may be 100% off but, I think if JP is serious about dealing him, I think the Yankees have a great chance to land for the reasons I’ve outlined in the posts.

    Their shot is better than almost anybody else’s, given their financial power and cache of young players.

    They are one of the few teams who can hurt a little to make this deal (which you will have to do) and still come out of it in good shape.

  144. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    BTW word is TOR has been scouting Drabek and Happ of the Phillies. Don’t know if it means that much.

  145. haiku-man July 8th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    Can you imagine Santanna kicking himself,for not waiting for free agency,and going to the Mutts? Look at that team he has around him they’ve imploded,jeeesh?

  146. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    Bartolo Colon? He’s making a Triple-A start in a couple days for a team in another division and they can’t find him? Big deal.

    It was like Laura asking about Mariah Carey’s voice at MJ’s service.

    No big deal and not worth talking about.

  147. Bridge Jumper July 8th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    It would be nice to have a rotation of:

    CC
    Halladay
    Burnett
    Flavor of the Week
    Petitte

    But, I really, really, really hope they don’t give away too much to make it happen. No matter how good and proven he’s been in Toronto, this is NY. 40K in the stands every night, not 15K.

  148. sab July 8th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    Steve – but the reason Halladay is even being considered to get traded is because they don’t think they will be able to afford him in 18 months – if wells is traded then they have 30 million dollars next year to go out and sign whomever they want – they aren’t winning with halladay or wells – and they probably won’t win 2 years from now with whomever they get from other teams – but if they are really serious about winning won’t the 30 million they have saved help them start winning next year? they can sign fellow canadian jason bay for 12 mil, they can get a solid reliever/closer in gonzalez or soriano for 8 mil and some other player to fill a need (not sure what their needs are)..

    if they get wang (a proven winner) then it kind of makes up for the loss of halladay – and they don’t have that albatross of a contract in centerfield….

    the difference between keeping wells and taking joba – or dumping wells and taking wang is huge for a team that is hurting financially…and the fall off in performance is minimal…wang has proven he can win 19 games in a year – joba at his absolute best will win what 24 in a year – saving 30 million dollars a year isn’t worth 5 wins for a team like the blue jays?

  149. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    sab-Wanger hasn’t proven anything this year.

  150. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    Brandon,

    And they were looking at Hughes, Chamberlain, Nova, Romine and McAllister the last 10 days.

    All teams do their due diligence this time of year.

  151. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    The Yanks aren’t getting Halliday because:

    1. JP won’t trade him to an AL East team. It is hard enough for the Jays to compete as is – they are probably the sixth best team in the AL and have no chance at the playoffs. They aren’t going to make their opponents even stronger and make it that much longer before they are a serious contender.

    2. The Yanks aren’t going to increase their budget significantly in 2010 and beyond. My guess is, if anything, they are looking to decrease it. If the Yanks get Halliday, the contract they will need to renegotiate will leave them less than $19MM to replace Damon and Matsui, sign a fifth starter, give an arb increase to Melky and whoever they keep of Hughes or Joba, sign 5 relievers and sign a bench. Can’t be done and hold the offense at its current effectiveness or even close. You can’t backload Halliday’s contract, either, first because why would Halliday agree, and second because starting in 2011 very expensive contracts for Jeter, Posada and Rivera will start expiring but the Yanks will need to spend nearly as much as they gain from those expiring contracts to keep those positions competitive.

    3. Reportedly the Jays are looking for a SS. We don’t have one to trade that they would want.

    4. Signing Halliday will give the Yanks three long term, expensive contracts which cover approximately the same time frame and with pitchers of approximately the same age. They’ll see that as a very risky strategy.

    4. The Yanks can win with Joba and Hughes – they don’t need Halliday.

    I want the Yanks to keep the homegrown guys anyway. Let Halliday go to the NL.

  152. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    SJ44-

    Don’t you think from a statistical point of view, Halladay would rather be in the NL where he would no longer have to deal with the AL beasts of the east. I would think the NL lineups would be a selling point for him to agree to the deal

  153. m July 8th, 2009 at 11:05 am

    more junk from Jason Whitlock (from a radio appearance):

    Whitlock also thinks Serena missed an opportunity to capitalize on her looks and says that “sex appeal matters.”

    “I think she is a naturally beautiful person. If she lost a little bit of weight, there’d be a lot of focus on how beautiful she is.”

  154. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 11:05 am

    WYH-

    So you are saying the Yankees shouldn’t trade Jeter for Halladay???

    (relax, I am joking)

  155. Hokiehill July 8th, 2009 at 11:05 am

    Colon’s not great pitcher these days, but I still hope he’s not hurt or worse…

    “A. they are the reigning champs.
    b. His presence in their rotation virtually locks them into the playoffs.
    c. He’s going to dominate in the NL east.”

    These 3 reasons were given for why Hallady would choose Phillie…all are true for the Yanks other than the reigning champs, and personally I think we would have a better shot of winning the WS than Philly would if either picked up Halladay…plus is presence locks us into the playoffs and he already knows he can dominate in the AL East…

  156. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Erica-I don’t know if he’d care. He dominates the AL anyway.

  157. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN
    July 8th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Stultus Magnus-Well that’s a fair enough opinion in any case.

    =================

    I just think that he’ll dominate as a starter or, if it happens, as a reliever once he figures a few things out.

    Right now, as it is, I don’t believe he would dominate in either role.

  158. Five Iron From Fenway July 8th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Unless Toronto knows for sure that Wang is 100% healthy they don’t take him. They also will have to pay him soon.
    It would be really nice for the relievers to have two to two and a half complete days off a week. CC and Halladay back to back and Mariano can take some long weekends.

  159. 86w183 July 8th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    Texas needed a loan to make their last payroll. They cannot take on money, I don’t care whose blog says otherwise.

    You think some teams might raise hell with Baby Doc Selig if the Rangers are getting interest free loans to bid for players against teams not being subsidized?

    No one knows what Ricciardi’s marching orders are, but if I were giving him marching orders I would tell him to find out who might take on Wells or Rios’ contracts as part of a deal. The answer may very well be no one will do it, but don’t you have to try?

    Moving Halladay is an announcement that you are re-tooling with younger players. Yes, you need talent back, but getting out from under a bad contract has tremendous value too.

  160. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    Stultus Magnus-I just think that any half decent starter (yes, he is still half decent) would dominate out of the pen.

  161. Rebecca--Optimist Prime July 8th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    “more junk from Jason Whitlock (from a radio appearance):

    Whitlock also thinks Serena missed an opportunity to capitalize on her looks and says that “sex appeal matters.”

    “I think she is a naturally beautiful person. If she lost a little bit of weight, there’d be a lot of focus on how beautiful she is.””

    He obviously isn’t getting any.

  162. Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    His velocity IS important. He was hitting 95 to 96 as a starter in the minors. He was doing it as a starter last year. Now he’s not and IMO that’s a big deal.

    I don’t know what your issue is that you need to start talking about how I “kick players when they’re down” and “obsess over the velocity change”. OF COURSE I obsess. This is IMO his biggest issue. I think if that comes back we’ll see the old Joba. Now stop talking as if you know best and everybody else is an idiot, it’s called an OPINION and I have one just like you do.

    —————–

    No, his velocity is not as important as you think. Doc Halladay doesn’t throw his fastball harder than 93 MPH and he’s still the best pitcher in the game.

    Also, Joba was throwing 97-98 MPH in the minors as a starter. But perhaps you and many other people who continue to focus on velocity maybe need to consider that perhaps Joba was simply throwing every fastball as hard as he could in the minors and now he’s trying to save it and use that heat when he needs it.

    Burnett was a guy who learned that throwing every pitch as hard as you could wasn’t the right approach if you wanted to stay healthy.

    Perhaps Joba’s shoulder issue last season had something to do with that? Maybe the tendinitis he suffered was the result of him throwing the ball as hard as he could every pitch.

    It’s entirely possible Burnett has gotten through to him in that regard and Joba doesn’t want to blow his arm out throwing as hard as he can every pitch.

    Joba can win with a fastball that occasionally hits the mid-90s. He just needs to be more aggressive and pound the zone like any other pitcher no matter their velocity.

  163. Hokiehill July 8th, 2009 at 11:08 am

    “more junk from Jason Whitlock (from a radio appearance):

    Whitlock also thinks Serena missed an opportunity to capitalize on her looks and says that “sex appeal matters.”

    “I think she is a naturally beautiful person. If she lost a little bit of weight, there’d be a lot of focus on how beautiful she is.” ”

    Is this from the same Jason Whitlock that weighs like 300 lbs? What a joke of a comment to begin with, but I can never understand fat people calling other fat people fat (and no i dont think Serena is fat which makes this even more puzzling).

  164. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    SJ44,

    You are making the assumption that Halladay doesn’t want to pitch in the NL and that he doesn’t want to pitch for Philadelphia therefore the Yankees have an advantage in getting him. What evidence can you provide that Halladay might not want to pitch for Philly?

    Philly has enough to get Halladay. They have a lot of position and pitching prospects throughout the organization. Not at the level of Hughes/Joba but they have much better position prospects to offer.

    If the Phillies and Yankees went head to head on this the Yanks would come out on top due to the quality of their prospects. However, the Phillies need Halladay more so I think they would be willing to offer more than Cashman.

    Wave,

    I don’t think the trade within the division is much of a factor. Giving Halladay to a division rival hurts them in the short term but helps in the long term becuase the prospects they get back would help them more down the road.

  165. Five Iron From Fenway July 8th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    Are Pena and Nunez good enough shortstop prospects that Toronto would consider them in a deal – Joba/Hughes, Nova/Macallister, Cervelli/Romine, Pena/Nunez – or is that too much?

  166. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    Serena Williams, and I’m sorry to all you Serena fans, looks like a man.

    I have nothing against her, just saying.

  167. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    SJ relax I’m just telling you what been reported. Also a friend of Doc has leaked he’d likely ok NY, BOS or PHI. IMO he’s going to Philly. And WFAN’s Mets fans are going to be pissed. It would be bigger than Curt Schilling landing on the Sox.

  168. Richie July 8th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    The Yankees are already an old team. Trading young players for Halliday would over leverage both the team’s need to win now as well as their payroll flexibility going forward.

    It would probably be the single stupidest thing they could do.

    Regarding Serena, that’s more than a little sexist.

  169. YankeeFan4Eva July 8th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    I think the Yankees will end up trading for Washburn.

  170. Lardin July 8th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    IF the Yankees get Halladay, I would hope something like this

    Wang, Austin Jackson, Jesus Montero Andrew Brackman and another prospect for Halladay, Rios and BJ Ryan.

  171. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    1. Has been debunked numerous times. GM’s make the best deal they can make and if its with a divisional rival, so be it. That’s how Cone and Clemens got to NY from Toronto.

    2. They may be looking for a SS prospect. However, one may not be available to them from the list of teams Halladay would approve a trade to.

    3. When the Yankees turn away from a guy like this over money, let me know. For all the talk about money, they have spent over 800 million dollars in contracts the past two off-seasons. They can slot him in, extend him 3 years, and be fine.

    4. We don’t know if they can “win” with Joba and Hughes. We “think” they can and we “hope” they can but, we don’t “know”.

    Its great to build with young players. Sounds nice. Its a cliche and nothing more.

    You build with balance. A combination of homegrown players, good trades and the right free agents. That’s how you build sustainable teams in large markets.

    You don’t just build them through the farm system alone.

  172. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    “I don’t think the trade within the division is much of a factor. Giving Halladay to a division rival hurts them in the short term but helps in the long term becuase the prospects they get back would help them more down the road.”

    It would not help Toronto as much as getting prospects from a team outside the division and not giving Halliday to a team in the division.

  173. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    Richie-Disagree. Halladay would make them the favorites to win this year.

  174. Russ July 8th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    “Yankees: Brian Cashman wouldn’t trade for the younger Johan Santana. Now he’ll reverse course and trade for Halladay? That makes no sense. The Yankees will play the game and stay in it, just to make sure the price is painful for whoever does get the ace.”

    Here’s a question for you, Pete.

    Generally I agree that the Yanks use this sort of strategy. But why would they want the Blue Jays to get the most out of Halladay? Isn’t it in the best interest that the Blue Jays get ripped off–assuming he leaves the division? If you’re going to face a team 19 times a year, you don’t want them to make smart deals and get super prospects, etc.

    Am I wrong?

  175. YankeeFan4Eva July 8th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    “Lardin
    July 8th, 2009 at 11:11 am
    IF the Yankees get Halladay, I would hope something like this

    Wang, Austin Jackson, Jesus Montero Andrew Brackman and another prospect for Halladay, Rios and BJ Ryan.”

    Can you hook me up with the crack you smoke?

  176. ADam July 8th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Who would the Phillies give up for Doc? Happ and one of the big bats?

  177. Mike July 8th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Lets just do a trade . . Just for the heck of it !! .

  178. Hokiehill July 8th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    “Serena Williams, and I’m sorry to all you Serena fans, looks like a man.

    I have nothing against her, just saying.”

    The real point here is, who cares? She’s still one of the greatest women tennis players of all time…you saying something like that on a BLOG with no face to the (screen) name is one thing, but a public figure is something else entirely. Especially a rather large (size not stature) public figure.

  179. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 11:13 am

    I don’t think the Yanks will get Halladay. Sure they want him but he’s a luxury not a necessity. The Phillies on the other hand NEED him if they want to make another playoff run this year.

    I still think the Yanks will trade for a veteran reliever and that’s it. The team is very very good as it stands right now.

  180. m July 8th, 2009 at 11:13 am

    Rebecca,

    Sigh. men will never learn it’s a lose/lose to talk about a woman’s figure. :)

    Just totally unprofessional. Whitlock was trying to justify a column he wrote about Serena being an underachiever because she’s overweight. He just dug himself a deeper hole.

    Totally unprofessional. He’s always championing the cause of black people and especially black athletes. Don’t know what he’s talking about. Serena’s highly marketable. Even though she doesn’t look like Sharapova.

  181. Rebecca--Optimist Prime July 8th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    Nuñez has opened some eyes at AA:

    .307/.325/.419/.744

    Big knock on him here is that he’s only got 8 BB to 38 K…so basically, Robinson Canó if Canó struck out…

    He does have 11 2B and 6 HR…

    And then 13 GIDP…

    Yeah. Reminds me of Canó a little.

  182. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    Five Iron from Fenway,

    Yes, Pena and Nunez are both good enough SS prospects to entice other teams.

    They are both on the short list of better SS prospects in the game in their respective leagues.

    Patrick,

    I’m not assuming that he doesn’t want to go to the NL.

    I’m saying its not a foregone conclusion that he does.

    If he doesn’t, then any Phillies talk, no matter how well they match up, is moot.

    That’s all I’m saying.

  183. Hokiehill July 8th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    that would be like me coming in here and telling all of you that you need to get back to work and stop commenting on blogs all day…just silly

  184. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    You need to remember fan reaction. Like Dennis said, what would you do if you heard your best player was being traded while you’re still in the race, and to a division rival?

    I know I’d be livid no matter what prospects we got. It’s tantamont to admitting you’re out of the race before the all star break.

  185. ADam July 8th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    I think the Yankees will end up trading for Washburn.

    Doubtful – Seeing how the clowns who run the mariners wanted Hughes for washburn last deadline. Yanks don’t need to make a trade… Not a big one anyway, If they do make a trade at the deadline it will be small.

  186. Doreen July 8th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    I’d love to see a pictureof this Whitlock fellow, m. What a jerk.

  187. sab July 8th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    btw – i don’t think stadiums come into play for halladay since the phillies home park is just as home run happy as yankee stadium…if halladay is worried about stadiums he’ll wait until the mets trade for him…

    wang isn’t himself this year, so far, but i think like everyone says he just hasn’t forgotten how to pitch – if healthly he can be a very solid #2 or 3 pitcher..

    trying to change the subject a bit – what would it take to get jarrod washburn once seattle throws in the towel in 3 weeks? left handed, goes 7 innings almost all the time, has pitched in the playoffs….

    as nice as it is to see aceves in the rotation – his best contribution this year is still coming out of the bullpen…
    and the yankees still need another starter (or 2 depending on joba)

  188. PeytonD July 8th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    If Boston gets him baseball they win the next 2 world series easy. I would give up any package that doesn’t involve Montero

  189. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    That would be awesome if the Mets traded away Reyes for Doc.

    Start the breaking up of the core!

    Wright to the Red Sox for Buchholz!

  190. Hokiehill July 8th, 2009 at 11:16 am

    “Sigh. men will never learn it’s a lose/lose to talk about a woman’s figure. ”

    I’m a guy and trust me, I get it. Whitlock is an idiot with no room to talk. He would be a lot more marketable if he put down the fork himself…it would probably help alot if he wasn’t an idiot as well…

  191. BD July 8th, 2009 at 11:16 am

    SJ – Assuming you’re correct that Doc controls his destiny through the no-trade clause, is there any reason to believe he has a strong preference of teams to play for among, say, the NYY, RS, and Phillies? Seems to me he would look forward to a switch to ANY of these WS contenders, and he would probably want more than one such team in the mix to make it more certain that the Jays got enough in return to justify a trade.

  192. Hokiehill July 8th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    google images of jason whitlock (yeah, he’s the fat one)

    http://images.google.com/image.....8;resnum=4

  193. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    Hokiehill-I guess.

    But what’s funny is that he’s right. Granted, it was inappropriate and insulting to say out loud. He shouldn’t have. But if Serena were good looking she’d be even more popular than she is now, no question.

    But I guess it doesn’t really matter.

  194. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    SJ44-

    Always good to hear from you.

    #1 has not been debunked. You just don’t choose to believe it. There’s a difference.

    #3- The amount of money the Yanks have laid out recently for contracts is in fact why they will be less likely, not more likely, to sign Halliday. Plus, you aren’t answering the basic issue – do you think the Yanks are going to go to a $20MM – $220 MM+ payroll next year, in a recession, with downward pressure on ticket prices? I don’t personally.

    #4 – You don’t “know” the Yanks can win with Halliday, either. But, they have a real good chance to win either way. Keeping Joba and Hughes is the cheaper, more flexible approach.

  195. Bronx Jeers July 8th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    The MLB trade rumors article on Halladay leads off with a Feinsand link saying count the Yanks out.

    Hey Pete tell your buddy he needs to “stoke the fires” a bit more if he wants to sell more papers. The truth is irrelevant in those tabloids anyway.

    Also be sure to tell him how this blog seriously cuts into his readership. And by “seriously cuts” I mean me and a buddy.

  196. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    It would hurt the Jays if they settled for lesser prospects simply because the they are dealing with is outside the AL East.

    The Blue Jays have to make the best deal possible. It just so happens that two of the teams that can offer them what they need reside in the same division.

    GM’s don’t use that as a barometer to turn down a deal. It limits their options.

    It doesn’t mean the Yankees or Red Sox will get him.

    It just means being in the same division won’t preclude it from happening.

  197. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    It may not be a bad idea for the Mets to trade the core.
    If the last 3 seasons of Mets baseball have proven anything, the Mets core doesn’t work

  198. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    “It would not help Toronto as much as getting prospects from a team outside the division and not giving Halliday to a team in the division. ”

    Not necessarily. Let’s see if I can phrase this the right way, I’ve tried twice and neither time it came out right so here goes.

    Toronto knows they aren’t contending this year or next. They are a good team but the fact remains, they play in the same division as Tampa, Boston and New York. Unless they really blow up with young players and breakout performances (ie – Tampa) they aren’t going to win.

    So maybe the thought process is from Ricciardi’s perspective, we trade Halladay to Boston or New York and with Halladay they dominate for 2 years. The prospects we get back then help us be a dominant team for the 3-4 years after that.

    Not only do the prospects help Toronto but it hurts New York or Boston who had to sell their future to win now.

    This is one of Billy Beane’s principals and Ricciardi is a Beane disciple.

    Also I’m pretty sure Ricciardi has been quoted in the past that he has no problem trading within the division.

  199. Five Iron From Fenway July 8th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    The Williams sisters are like the Tiger Woods of the tennis tour in that they play for the majors. The question of Safina being the # 1 is moot if Serena played in the same number of tournaments. Like the golf ranking system if you are good over a larger number of tournaments you will be more highly ranked then if you are great in only a select few.
    Both of them, and to me for whatever reason Serena moreso, have had significant stretches where they have not focused on tennis. When they play and are in form they win.
    BTW the Williams also won doubles. Not bad – champion, doubles champion, semi-finals (Venus).

  200. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    It’s worth it to note that Toronto had a different GM at the time they traded Clemens to the Yankees

  201. haiku-man July 8th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    A funny thing about teams trading with the Yankees for a player.They ask for half the farm,your first born,and a few limbs,your blood,and money. While other teams give far less

    What Minnesota wanted for the Santanna trade was off the hook crazy.The Yankees made a good offer,after MN pitted The Yankees against other teams,got far lees (The Mutts had nothing) when the deal came down.I seem to recall they came back crawling,and Cashman passed.

  202. Hokiehill July 8th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    I found this comment at the end of his “article” on Serena’s weight issues…very funny stuff!

    “This chunky dude must have some dirty mirrors in his house because he has not seen himself lately. Whitlock you must be pals with Charles Barkley because you sure look like you can attack a pack of chicken wings and dipping sauce with the best of them. How dare you call Serena out of shape? You must be on some strong stuff!!!!!!!!!!”

  203. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    If it comes down to best prospects and cash, Yankees and Red Sox are about tied with prospects and Yankees have more cash.

  204. m July 8th, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Doreen,

    Let’s just say that he looks nothing at all like the men Serena hooks up with (we’re talking gorgeous).

    I think he’s a columnist with the Washington Post. Can’t (imo) write a column without talking about race.

    And yes, Serena, is a “handsome” woman, but she does just fine, Whitlock.

    Dan Patrick talked about the article yesterday, and must’ve wanted an explanation because he was on this morning to defend himself.

    Instead of talking about what a glorious achievement to have two sisters of color in the Wimbeldon final, he chooses to write a sexist column?

  205. dennis-Costanza July 8th, 2009 at 11:21 am

    I really like seeing pics of guys like Whitlock and Francessa.

    They make me feel thin and handsome.

    Thanks for the pick me up, Hokiehill.

    -dennis

  206. E-gawa July 8th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    Anything is possible. Just remember, not too long ago someone said there was no chance we were getting Mark Teixeira.

  207. Observer283 July 8th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    Jesus Montero. Why would Riccardi trade Halladay in the division without getting back Jesus Montero? Hughes or Chaimberlain AND Montero, plus another prospect. That’s what it would take for me to trade Halladay in the division to a team that has perennially kicked my team’s butt.

    If I were Riccardi, I would need to get an extreme premium from the Red Sox or the Yankees to give them Halladay.

    In other words, the package they offer cannot just be better than what the Phillies offer. It has to be WAY better than what the Phillies offer. It has to feel lopsided in the Jay’s favor.

    And if I were the Yankees, I don’t pull the trigger on a deal as lopsided as the one I mention above.

  208. Hokiehill July 8th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    “But if Serena were good looking she’d be even more popular than she is now, no question.”

    Like Anna Kournikova?…you’d need a search party to find that former mis-popular…Sharipova is heading the same way.

  209. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    It has been debunked. David Cone and Roger Clemens were traded from Toronto to the Yankees. That’s precdent right there. You just choose to believe otherwise, which is your right.

    JP himself has said he has no problems trading within the division.

    He spent two weeks trying to get the Yankees and Red Sox to take Vernon Wells. There is no moratorium against intra-division trades. You make the best deal you can possibly make for your team, regardless of the trade partners.

    Even the Orioles, if so inclined, have the ability to do this deal.

    Do I think the Yankees will reduce payroll significantly in the next 2 years? No, I don’t.

    I think the payroll will continue to be between 185-220 million.

    They say the same thing every year and never do it. Let me know when it changes.

    They are a better team with the best RH pitcher in baseball rather than one of the two kids. That really isn’t hard to figure out unless you now want to tell me that either Hughes or Chamberlain is better than Roy Halladay.

  210. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    Tell you what-No one herewants it, but it would not shock me if Montero were traded.

  211. Rebecca--Optimist Prime July 8th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    Observer: Yankees pull that deal and I shed my pinstripes.

  212. john July 8th, 2009 at 11:24 am

    To be honest, not sure if this was mentioned, I think the Mets would be suitors if they are smart. The injuries though kill it. Would you not be willing to part with Jose Reyes for Halladay? I for one think Reyes is a lot like Cano. Lots of potential, could be great, but may just be what you see. He changes the game, Toronto has Scutaro playing well, but it’s night and day. They could use some offense. They have Marcum, the kid Ryeds whatever that pitched last night, Litsch, Romero, Cecil, etc. They have lots of young pitching prospects. Their hitting remains weak. The Mets would have a Santana-Halladay combo which would absolutely dominate the NL. Losing Reyes would be big, but until the Beltran injuries the Mets were playing well enough without him. Just makes some sense to me.

    Having said all that, Jays probably won’t deal a guy that likes pitching there unless they got something insane. Sox and Yankees will be happy enough he is out of the division. Phillies have plenty of tradeable prospects as do the Angels. But the Phillies have little needs outside of pitching, the Angels will still need to find offense from somewhere Vlade is a free agent, so is Abreu and Figgins I believe while Kendrick has not played to expectations. They will need hitters and can resign Lackey still having Lackey, Santana, Saunders and Weaver going forward.

  213. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:24 am

    Hokiehill-Of course you need to be really GOOD. Talent AND looks would make here one of the most popular sports figures today, even more than she is now.

  214. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 11:24 am

    “I’m not assuming that he doesn’t want to go to the NL.

    I’m saying its not a foregone conclusion that he does.

    If he doesn’t, then any Phillies talk, no matter how well they match up, is moot.

    That’s all I’m saying. ”

    I hear you and that makes sense however, you said this just earlier:

    “I don’t think the Phillies are the favorites to land him. I think the Yankees and Red Sox are for a couple of reasons:

    3. They are in the AL and I’m not sure Doc wants to change league.
    4 Doc has a full no trade. Meaning, he and not JP controls where he goes.”

    Not being sure if Doc wants to change leagues doesn’t give the Yankees any kind of advantage. You also don’t know that he wants to play in New York.

    Since everyone else is making a numbered list here is mine:

    1. Philly has a better farm system than the Yankees.
    2. Philly needs Halladay a lot more than the Yankees do and would probably be willing to give up more for him.
    3. Philly isn’t tied down by as many huge contracts as the Yankees are.
    4. Philly is not in the AL east and despite my theories about Ricciardi not caring about trading within the division, it is common baseball procedure to never trade a star within your division.

    There you go, he is probably going to Philadelphia.

  215. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:24 am

    here is her.

  216. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    SJ44-

    Always good to hear from you.

    #1 has not been debunked. You just don’t choose to believe it. There’s a difference.

    ==================

    SJ only deals with facts.

    Couldn’t resist, SJ. ;)

  217. Hokiehill July 8th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    “I really like seeing pics of guys like Whitlock and Francessa.

    They make me feel thin and handsome.”

    Yeah, 2 guys made perfectly for writing and radio…although Francesca is really perfect for neither

  218. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    Halladay may not want to come to NY because he doesn’t like the bandbox.

  219. Five Iron From Fenway July 8th, 2009 at 11:26 am

    I cannot imagine any way they trade Montero unless it is like a 1-1 deal for Halladay or perhaps a 2 for 1 while not including Joba or Hughes: i.e Montero and Macallister for Halladay.

  220. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Patrick,

    You are exactly right. GM’s don’t get caught up in division stuff. They want the maximum value for a player.

    If it comes from a division rival, they do the deal.

    Gord Ash HATED the Yankees. Yet, he dealt with them because it was in his best interests to make the best deal at the time for his team.

    As you correctly state, Billy Beane is the same way.

    Its about matching up and getting maximum value. Its not about divisional boundries.

  221. Bronx Jeers July 8th, 2009 at 11:27 am

    Joba-Nunez-Romine- and 1 lesser prospect.

    Make the call Cash, If Riccardi and Doc say yes, say hello ALCS.

  222. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    But I do agree, inter-division trades happen.

    I don’t see that as an obstacle at all.

    That said, I think Doc goes West…

  223. G. Love July 8th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    I think I sit somewhere in between Brandon & SJ on this one.

    I completely think that JP will try to pawn off Wells to us. I don’t think he will try to pawn off Rios as he has actual value in the league.

    I expect JP to offer to eat 1/2 of Wells’ contract and offer that to the Yanks with Halladay for a package that starts with a Hughes/Joba and includes Austin Jackson. From there the Yankees will give up a catcher and some middling prospects.

    Do I think Cash has the stones to do that deal? I don’t know. I would do it. It’s using your resources and assets to complete the goal of winning the title.

    It also isn’t a franchise killer. You can replace the Hughes/Joba with Chapman. The organization is strong in catchers and if you trade Austin Jackson you still have Wells/Melky/Gardner to win with while we have the most dominating pitching staff in baseball.

    Halladay not only adds what he can do in his starts. He makes AJ a better pitcher and in turn makes Cash’s investment in AJ more solid than it currently is.

    It allows you to slot CC against the #2 starter on most teams. AJ against the #3. It’s quite a broad stroke.

    I don’t think the Red Sox have the stones to do this. I think they are hoarding that young pitching talent for a young positional talent type player.

    The Yankees can actually make this move and get better and patch up any holes the deal leaves with relative ease.

    This is going to be the sign that the Steinbrenners are either in it to win it or they aren’t chips off the old block.

    I don’t think for a second that the Jays won’t trade w/in the division. In fact, I think they have to try to trade w/in the division to maximize returns.

  224. Matt July 8th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    I know this is fun to discuss but there is absolutely NO WAY halladay becomes a yankee….why are you guys discussing this like you are all Cashman’s assistants? He will NOT become a yankee and that is bottom line..why waste your time discussing this?

  225. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    I want to punch J.P. Ricciardi in the face.

  226. Christina25 July 8th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    If you think that Hughes or Joba and couple more prospects are going to take to aquire Halladay you are dreaming. He said it himself that he has to be blown away. That means that he will need at least two excellent prospects and two good ones. You have to include both Hughes AND Joba on the deal.He is looking at 4 or 5 players like Haren did.

  227. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    Patrick, SJ44 and the other pro in-division trade argument supporters-

    I’m not saying an in-division trade cannot happen. I do believe it would have to be one materially better than the Jays could do outside the division, for the reasons I stated earlier, and I don’t think it is likely to happen. Saying something is not impossible does not make it likely.

    First, the Yanks don’t have the prospect package to make the Jays a sure-fire contender down the road. If you think Joba or Hughes could do that, then there’s no reason to trade them. If you won’t trade Montero (and since no one knows if he will turn out to be a catcher, it’s hard to say exactly how valuable he will trun out to be), there’s no collection of prospects we have that will turn the Jays into a contender.

    Jackson is good, but his top end is probably not an All-Star. Brackman? Get serious. Romine, top end not high enough and too risky he won’t pan out at all.

    Just my opinion, but I can’t see it.

  228. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    For some reason, I’d still be very surprised if we landed Halladay.

  229. Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    Halladay may not want to come to NY because he doesn’t like the bandbox.

    ————-

    I bet he likes to win, though.

    And considering he’s never played in the postseason, I think that massively outweighs whatever he may or may not think about the Stadium.

    Halladay is not dumb. If he thinks the Stadium is a bandbox, he’ll have to make the adjustments like anyone else.

    He’s an extreme ground ball pitcher, which is exactly the kind of pitcher the Yanks need.

  230. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    “Joba-Nunez-Romine- and 1 lesser prospect.

    Make the call Cash, If Riccardi and Doc say yes, say hello ALCS.”

    If that’s all your attempting to give, then I can 100 % say he will be traded to the Phillies.

  231. DB July 8th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    I’m glad someone brought up Cone and Clemens, both at the top of their game when traded from Toronto to NYY. You can’t count the Yanks out. When concerns me is they don’t have the Boss in the background saying “I don’t care what you got to do, get me Halladay!!”

    He’s the best pitcher in the AL, now. He is not a spring chicken however. Joba got to be off limits. Everyone else under the sun is bait.

  232. Rebecca--Optimist Prime July 8th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    “It also isn’t a franchise killer. You can replace the Hughes/Joba with Chapman. The organization is strong in catchers and if you trade Austin Jackson you still have Wells/Melky/Gardner to win with while we have the most dominating pitching staff in baseball.”

    You say this although Chapman is a sure thing. We don’t even know how old he is for sure. I’m leery.

    Otherwise, nice post.

  233. Observer283 July 8th, 2009 at 11:32 am

    SJ44 and Patrick: What you are saying intuitively makes sense. GM’s should just go with the absolute best deal they have on the table. And I understand that Riccardi is a Beane disciple and Beane has said he has no problems with making trades in division.

    But, has this actually happened that often recently? The last time I remember a trade of this magnitude or any where close to it intra division was Clemens/Wells a decade ago. And that was proven major league star coming of a career year plus prospects for a hall of famer.

    When was the last time we saw prospects traded in division for a HUGE star? It just seems to me that the team getting the prospects back would have to feel VERY confident in the package of prospects before they gave up the center of their franchise.

    Moreover, their fanbase would to feel VERY confident in the package of prospects for the trade to be worthwhile. Remember, Toronto is making this trade because of financial reasons. If their fans don’t feel like they took the Yanks or Red Sox to the cleaners on a Halladay trade, they will stop showing up. ANd if they stop showing up. The money thing gets way worse.

    Fans will be much more forgiving of a Halladay trade(and will keep coming to the park) if they trade him out of the division, or better yet, out of the league.

  234. Doreen July 8th, 2009 at 11:32 am

    Hokiehill-

    Thanks for the pics.

    m -

    Well the guy has zero credibility as far as I’m concerned. And Martina Navratilova did awfully well for herself and she was also a “handsome” woman shall we say. It’s about talent. And personality.

  235. DB July 8th, 2009 at 11:32 am

    Also, why wouldn’t Halladay want to go to the NL? It’s a no brainer. PItchers salavate at the chance at that league for obvious reasons.

  236. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    Franco-If you look at his face after the Damon HR, you could just see the words “I hate this effin’ place” written there.

  237. RS July 8th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    I hope Halladay just goes to the Phillies. I’d rather see the Yankees keep Hughes and Chamberlain than have 3 pitchers with humongous contracts locked in for the next 4-5 years.

    What if a few years down the road, Felix Hernandez, Lincecum, or Grienke hits free agency? We already signed Burnett when he was 32, and Halladay is 32 also. I think for now, the Yankees should stay away from FA pitchers unless they’re much younger.

  238. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    What if the Phillies and Yankees offer trade packages that are equal in Ricciardi’s eyes and Halladay is fine going to either team? Which offer does he take?

    Will he try to hurt the Yankees by taking their prospects and banking on them being difference makers in the future? Or does he think Halladay will be a force for the Yankees for many years to come and he goes with Philly?

    Honestly I don’t know, I could go either way on this one.

  239. m July 8th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    I don’t think Haren’s deal had a Joba & a Hughes…

    Somehow, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if we landed Halladay. The stakes are pretty high, will it be too rich for some of the players? Somehow, I think Wells will be involved. Just as long as they hold on to Baby Rocket…

  240. Ed H. July 8th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    Nope, I don’t see the Yanks trading for Halliday. First of all, he’s 32 and is about to go into the decline phase of his career. They’d have to pay dearly in terms of dollars, prospects and years. Second, we don’t need him that badly. We have the resources in house to succeed now and in the future and that is what the Yankees’ game plan has aimed to achieve since Cashman took control. Lastly, he’s not going to wind up in Boston and we don’t have to acquire Halliday to block the Red Shlocks. Pete called it right. We play just enough to keep tabs on what’s happening and to drive the price up if it looks like an American League team is about to get him. We don’t need him and I don’t want him.

  241. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    Rebecca-The age thing does not concern me as much. I heard they’re being much stricter with identification nowadays.

  242. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Patrick-

    If you think Halliday would be a force for the Yanks (or Boston) for the foreseeable future, why wouldn’t you think JP would also think that?

  243. Tom K July 8th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Money will always come out on top over the stadium the team plays in. Just ask Hampton & Neagle.

  244. haiku-man July 8th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Anna K has never won a Grand Slam,she’s just eye candy.

    Most of the women in tennis aren’t lookers,but they sure can perform on the court.

  245. jpb1973 July 8th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    In my humble opinion, there is no team in baseball that can take on BOTH Halladay’s and Wells contracts. In the end I think that will be the decider.

    I can see the Yankees sending Brett Gardner (or Melky if the Jays want him instead of Brett), Alfredo Aceves, Ivan Nova, Eduardo Nunez and Mike Dunnn to the Jays to get both Wells and Halladay. The Blue Jays would be happy with that deal because it gets rid of both Halladay and Wells’ contracts. They Jays owe Wells about $100 million over the next 5 years and I don’t see anyone willing to take on that salary. This will be a tough budget year for the Yankees but it gets a whole lot better next year when Damon ($13 million), Matsui ($13 million) and Nady ($6 million) are off the books. By the way, if we get Wells and keep AJax, I could envision the Yankees resigning Matsui for 1 year at about $5 million.

  246. m July 8th, 2009 at 11:36 am

    Darn tootin’ Doc likes to win. He seems like the ultimate competitor to me.

    His ERA in the AL east is sick.

  247. miggs July 8th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Its like Groundhog Day in here.

    All you guys have spent the last 2 days repeating your position over and over and over again.

    Without even asking, I know what most everyone’s position is regarding this trade because that’s ALL you guys have written.

    You are all saying the same thing in different posts. You’re spinning your wheels with this garbage.

    Can we talk about the team as it is currently constructed?

    If the discussion has to remain on this potential trade, can you guys at least come up with different points to your arguments rather than saying the same things repeatedly?

    Thanks.

  248. sab July 8th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    by the way – not that there is anything wrong with it – but doesn’t halladay look like he could be Amish?

  249. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Wave Your Hat,

    I never said I think that. I’m trying to look at both sides of the argument.

    If the decision comes down to Yankees vs Philly Ricciardi has to decide how long he thinks Halladay will be an ace and how good the prospects he’s getting back are. If he thinks the prospects are going to be big difference makers fairly soon and Halladay won’t be effective for much longer he’ll trade to the Yankees. If he thinks otherwise he’ll go with the Phillies.

    I don’t know either way.

  250. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 11:38 am

    I want to punch miggs in the face.

  251. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 11:38 am

    jpb1973 LMAO if you think that’s going to happen. LMAO.

  252. jpb1973 July 8th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    like Groundhog Day in here.

    All you guys have spent the last 2 days repeating your position over and over and over again.

    Without even asking, I know what most everyone’s position is regarding this trade because that’s ALL you guys have written.

    You are all saying the same thing in different posts. You’re spinning your wheels with this garbage.

    —————————————————

    Thats what the internet is all about…freedom of speech…over and over and over again.

  253. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    By the way miggs, that was a joke. More groundhog day stuff :)

  254. Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    Franco-If you look at his face after the Damon HR, you could just see the words “I hate this effin’ place” written there.

    ——————

    When Roy Halladay announces to everyone that he hates Yankee Stadium and never wants to play in that ballpark, you can then make that argument.

    But as I said, he’s not dumb. He’s the best pitcher in the game for a reason. He can make the adjustment like anyone else.

    And every ballplayer wants to win. Every one of them. He’s never played in the postseason. I think that massively outweighs anything he may or may not think about the Stadium.

    I bet winning a WS is more important to him than an ERA a few ticks higher.

  255. Bronx Jeers July 8th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    Don’t dismiss the power that Joba brings to that table.

    I mean this is taking a leap that the Yanks would even include him but IMO his name makes the Yanks frontrunners “talent-wise”.

    Name brand player. Fans like that sort of thing and trading away Doc runs the risk of alienating some fans. A name like Joba lessens that sting.

  256. Hokiehill July 8th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    “I could envision the Yankees resigning Matsui for 1 year at about $5 million.”

    I think you lost the room no that one…

  257. m July 8th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    Just in case you can’t read between the lines:

    I would love to get Halladay, as long as it doesn’t include Hughes and this montero kid (whom I’ve never seen before).

    :)

  258. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    Franco-Maybe. But I think it’s possible that could be a dealbreaker between here and Philly. Not only is the NL easier than the AL, he would playing on a team that are certainly WS contenders and doesn’t have a ballpark on record pace for HR’s.

  259. G. Love July 8th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    Rebecca,

    You’re right about Chapman. Until we know he’s 21 and not 26 he’s a risk.

    That said, if he’s 21, he’s younger than Hughes/Joba he’s left handed and throws harder than both of them and has performed on an international stage against real competition.

    I’m not calling him a sure thing, but he’s much closer to being the type of player that Hughes/Joba can be than anyone else.

    What you can’t forget in this scenario is we may be losing a Hughes/Joba but they are being replaced by Halladay for at least 2 seasons.

    In those 2 seasons he’s better than they are and in those 2 seasons Chapman, if signed and 21, gets to develop and approach what they could have been.

    The only hang up the Yankees have here is money. You want sell outs at the new stadium? Make the post season and win this year.

    You can do it as is. But Halladay makes the risk even less of this team falling apart the rest of the way.

  260. haiku-man July 8th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    Ace, will not be on the trade block,not for nothin!!

    Cashman isn’t that stupid.

  261. jpb1973 July 8th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    jpb1973 LMAO if you think that’s going to happen. LMAO.

    ————————————————–

    And what do you think Toronto is going to do with Wells contract? If they try to trade him all by himself they will have to pay someone to take him off of their hands. They need to get rid of wells’ contract a whole lot more than they need to get rid of Halladay’s contract. They only way they get rid of Wells is to package him with Halladay. Or else they are faced with eating Wells’ contract and losing Halladay when his contract runs out.

  262. Carlos July 8th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    How come no love for the Brewers? They still have a great farm system and have shown that they’re not afraid to pull off a big deal. Gamel+Escobar+somebody like Hart and you probably have a better deal then what many other teams can offer.

  263. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    Ok miggs, here’s another story:

    “True Hollywood Story: Baseball Wives”

    Starring JoPo’s wife. Yikes, reality TV is pure garbage.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....27602.html

  264. bru July 8th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    i would offer joba,romine & let the jays chose two from

    brackman
    ajax
    kennedy
    betances
    mcallister
    cervelli
    pena
    and 3 more names.

    halladay replacing joba maskes us light years better & i don’t see any team beating us with sabathia,burnett,halladay as our top 3.

    i don’t do it if montero is in it or both joba & hughes.only one.

    this leaves us with hughes,montero,a few more catchers,many more pitchers still in our system.

    to say the only way we get him is if we give up 4 or 5 prospects & take the wells contract is insane.

    never going to happen & toronto is not that stupid.

    the deal will die very quickly.

  265. miggs July 8th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    Its alright Patrick.

    I was just venting.

    It seems like I’ve been reading the same posts over and over again.

    I’m all for a good discussion, this one just isn’t going anywhere fast.

  266. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    When Roy Halladay announces to everyone that he hates Yankee Stadium and never wants to play in that ballpark, you can then make that argument.

    But as I said, he’s not dumb. He’s the best pitcher in the game for a reason. He can make the adjustment like anyone else.

    ===================

    Like Pettitte and Joba?

  267. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Don’t count out the Mets as winners when they get healthy. They could make a nice second half run.

    If they get healthy.

    I think the Yankees have a REALLY outside shot. As in, if I heard we got him I’d be really surprised but not shocked. Ditto with Red Sox.

  268. DB July 8th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Tom K
    July 8th, 2009 at 11:35 am
    Money will always come out on top over the stadium the team plays in. Just ask Hampton & Neagle.

    You should also ask Greg Maddox and you’ll find a completely different answer.

    I don’t think Doc is completely opposed to pitching here, the lure of a WS title, pitching with his buddy AJ, great clubhouse and beautiful amenities has got to out weigh the YS dimensions that can and will be fixed.

  269. Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Does anyone think Roy Halladay would really pass up a really good chance to pitch in the World Series with his buddy AJ Burnett simply because the Stadium might play a little small?

    I tend to doubt it very much, especially someone like Halladay who has never pitched int he postseason.

    Ballplayers want to win first.

    Now I’m not suggesting the Yanks will trade for the guy. But I’d bet my 2009 salary that he would waive his no-trade clause if he got the opportunity to come to the Yanks.

  270. jpb1973 July 8th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Ace, will not be on the trade block,not for nothin!!

    Cashman isn’t that stupid.

    ———————————————–

    Why not??? His value is greater now (as a potential starter) than in 2 or 3 years after we’ve blown out his arm. And which would you rather have…Halladay starting every 5th day or Aceves in long relief once every 5th day.

  271. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    miggs-If you want know why I posted that comment look at my comment at 10:15.

  272. Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    Like Pettitte and Joba?

    ————-

    Do you really want to start comparing Roy Halladay to Joba and Pettitte?

    One guy is the best pitcher in baseball in the toughest division. The other two are Joba and Pettitte.

  273. pat July 8th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    Halladay’s first question of all potential suitors-

    Does your team wear ugly uniforms on Fridays?

  274. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    “They only way they get rid of Wells is to package him with Halladay. Or else they are faced with eating Wells’ contract and losing Halladay when his contract runs out.”

    Exactly and that’s why he won’t end up here, instead the Phillies will get him and all they’ll have to deal is prospects. The Wells/Rios contract would be used to handicap a team in the AL if they give up Doc. I still say he’s Philly bound.

  275. miggs July 8th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    Anyone think Jorge’s wife has gone under the knife once or twice?

    I’m trying to find something natural on her body or face and seem to be coming up empty.

    There’s nothing wrong with getting a little work done but you don’t want to make it that obvious.

  276. haiku-man July 8th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    Looks like Ricciardi pulled a Scot Boras,with his approach to trading Hallady,start a bidding war!!

  277. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 8th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    I’m out. See ya.

  278. jpb1973 July 8th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    “They only way they get rid of Wells is to package him with Halladay. Or else they are faced with eating Wells’ contract and losing Halladay when his contract runs out.”

    Exactly and that’s why he won’t end up here, instead the Phillies will get him and all they’ll have to deal is prospects. The Wells/Rios contract would be used to handicap a team in the AL if they give up Doc. I still say he’s Philly bound.

    ——————————————————

    The Phillies can’t afford to pay Wells’ contract for the next 5 years. They are about to be forced into paying big bucks to their big firstbaseman, Howard…for a long time.

  279. vinny-b (RIP Air McNair) July 8th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    ok. For fun, i will play:

    Joba or Hughes

    Romine

    McCallister

    Nunez (shortstop)

    SJ44: is this what a trade may look like? The yankees don’t need to move Austin Jackson (NYY has no OF depth). Montero is an untouchable. And hopefully Melancon and Banuelos would be retained.

  280. Ed H. July 8th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Why do you guys think that the Jays would take Joba as the centerpiece of a Halladay trade? His stock is way down because of his performance this year. There are questions about his health, his makeup and his overall potential. The Jays would be foolish to take him now as more than a throw-in.

  281. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    Like Pettitte and Joba?

    ————-

    Do you really want to start comparing Roy Halladay to Joba and Pettitte?

    One guy is the best pitcher in baseball in the toughest division. The other two are Joba and Pettitte.

    =============

    Yeah, I was making a joke. I should have clarified. I just think it would be funny if some huge trade was made and then Doc got all scared and started walking everybody at YSIII because he’s worried about the short short right porch.

  282. Christina- pictures from AAA Yanks game July 8th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    By trading Halladay, the already depleted Jays rotation is going to look quite foolish. The first thing they need to do is fire whoever is handling their young guys and get someone else in. Another two more injuries to their starting rotation in the past two weeks. The Yankee fans would sure hit bridge if half these injuries happened to the team.

  283. E-gawa July 8th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    “No, his velocity is not as important as you think. Doc Halladay doesn’t throw his fastball harder than 93 MPH and he’s still the best pitcher in the game.

    Also, Joba was throwing 97-98 MPH in the minors as a starter. But perhaps you and many other people who continue to focus on velocity maybe need to consider that perhaps Joba was simply throwing every fastball as hard as he could in the minors and now he’s trying to save it and use that heat when he needs it.

    Burnett was a guy who learned that throwing every pitch as hard as you could wasn’t the right approach if you wanted to stay healthy.

    Perhaps Joba’s shoulder issue last season had something to do with that? Maybe the tendinitis he suffered was the result of him throwing the ball as hard as he could every pitch.

    It’s entirely possible Burnett has gotten through to him in that regard and Joba doesn’t want to blow his arm out throwing as hard as he can every pitch.

    Joba can win with a fastball that occasionally hits the mid-90s. He just needs to be more aggressive and pound the zone like any other pitcher no matter their velocity.”

    And Neither Halladay OR AJ Burnett experienced a velocity drop like Joba has.

    Even with AJ Burnett “toning” it down a bit.. his FB is off 2-3 mph and he still averages 94-95 a game.

    Joba is off 5-7mph and averaging 91-92 a game. That’s not normal. No matter how you want to explain that, it’s not normal. There is no healthy pitcher that has done that.

    Sure, he could win like Halladay with a 93mph fb. He can be more agressive, attack the zone, just like you said. However, why ignore the most bizarre and obvious issue? Especially with the way they handled Wang, I think it’s nuts to just brush it off.

  284. Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    Yeah, I was making a joke. I should have clarified. I just think it would be funny if some huge trade was made and then Doc got all scared and started walking everybody at YSIII because he’s worried about the short short right porch.

    ==============

    Sabathia and Burnett have made the adjustments. I’m sure Halladay is quite capable of doing the same thing.

  285. S.A.--It's a marathon, not a sprint. July 8th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    I know inter-division trades have happened in the past, but I still just don’t see Ricciardi trading Halladay to the Yankees. If somehow he does, I suggest he sleeps with one eye open. There will be a whole bunch of unhappy Blue Jay fans hunting him down. Just my opinion.

    But to play along:
    Hank Steinbrenner, Randy Levine, Lonn Trost, Kei Igawa and a Posada bobblehead for Halladay and that’s my final offer. :P

    So, it was nice to see Robbie finally get a hit with RISP yesterday

  286. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    miggs-

    Of course it’s like Groundhog Day (and what a great movie).

    There’s only a limited number of subjects you can talk about, and only so many ways of looking at each of them.

    But the interesting thing about Groundhog Day was that while Bill Murray had to live the same day over and over, each time the day was a little different. Usually, our repetitive arguments change some too.

  287. DB July 8th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    Montero, Jackson, Hughes, and Melky for Wells and Halladay.

    Scoff all you want, but that trade is a real possibility.

  288. bru July 8th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    the reason why cashman gets halladay & not santanna is halladay puts boston ahead of us even if we have sabathia.

    we planned on countering boston getting santanna with cc in addition too us being a halladay away from being heavy favorites to win the ws.

    plus we will have our rotation set for years,still keep hughes & montero.

    we are at the point now where we have too many prospects & need too use them too win a ws.

    we don’t need most of our prospects with a rotation of

    cc
    burnett
    halladay
    hughes
    tex
    arod
    montero
    hughes & many more.

    joba & let the jays pick any 2 or 3 more not including both joba & hughes or montero.

    i would trade joba before hughes.

    joba is a mess right now & we need to sell high.

  289. miggs July 8th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    I’m just curious Brandon… you seem convinced that the Jays will try and lump Wells into any trade with Halladay.

    All due respect, what basis do you have to be so strong in your opinion? You’re guessing just like everyone else. Unless you’re the Jay’s assistant GM I don’t see how you can be so insistent on that theory.

    There have been no facts or quotes suggesting such a theory. It sounds like something you just made up because it sounds good.

    Common sense tells me its hard to believe Riccardi will turn down a deal with great prospects simply because they won’t take the worst contract in baseball.

  290. Tom in N.J. July 8th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    Guys, the real reason Halladay will not come here is because he’d have to pitch to Posada…

  291. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    miggs July 8th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    Anyone think Jorge’s wife has gone under the knife once or twice?

    I’m trying to find something natural on her body or face and seem to be coming up empty.

    There’s nothing wrong with getting a little work done but you don’t want to make it that obvious.

    ============

    I was thinking the same thing. And I disagree, I do think it’s wrong. Unless it’s some sort of reconstructive surgery, plastic surgery is senseless. It’s disappointing to see people so afraid of growing old. Nothing turns me off more than extreme vanity in a woman.

  292. Patrick July 8th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    “Its alright Patrick.

    I was just venting.

    It seems like I’ve been reading the same posts over and over again.

    I’m all for a good discussion, this one just isn’t going anywhere fast. ”

    You are right, we are most definitely talking in circles.

  293. haiku-man July 8th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    Man I don’t see it.He has value now to the YANKEES,they NEED his help in the PENNANT race.Why cut off your nose,to spite your face?Cahman has built up the farm,use them.

  294. bru July 8th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    we don’t need most of our prospects with a rotation of

    cc
    burnett
    halladay
    hughes

    &

    tex
    arod
    montero
    hughes & many more
    for position players i meant too say

  295. bru July 8th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    take hughes out for our position players

  296. Rebecca--Optimist Prime July 8th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    “Montero, Jackson, Hughes, and Melky for Wells and Halladay.

    Scoff all you want, but that trade is a real possibility.”

    Then I become a Pirates fan.

    Montero and Hughes is too much.

  297. m July 8th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....vote-right

    Nice column about Jeter’s All-Star selection.

  298. S.A.--It's a marathon, not a sprint. July 8th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    Tom in N.J. July 8th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    Guys, the real reason Halladay will not come here is because he’d have to pitch to Posada…

    ===============================

    :lol:

  299. jpb1973 July 8th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    I know inter-division trades have happened in the past, but I still just don’t see Ricciardi trading Halladay to the Yankees. If somehow he does, I suggest he sleeps with one eye open. There will be a whole bunch of unhappy Blue Jay fans hunting him down. Just my opinion.

    —————————————————-

    One thing you have to realize is that the Blue Jays owner (Ted Rogers) has recently died and that the team is now owned by the businessmen who are running his estate. They don’t care about the rivalries…they are probably going to sell the team as soon as they can make it profitable.

    JP Ricciardi has to worry more about pleasing the owners over the next year or so than the fans. And, oh by the way, how many Blue Jay fans are there left to get angry. All the while that they were in the race this spring, they were drawing less than 22,000 fans per game.

  300. Ed H. July 8th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    haiku-man
    July 8th, 2009 at 11:54 am
    Man I don’t see it.He has value now to the YANKEES,they NEED his help in the PENNANT race.Why cut off your nose,to spite your face?Cahman has built up the farm,use them.

    —————————————

    Is this another plastic surgery comment? :)

  301. vinny-b (RIP Air McNair) July 8th, 2009 at 11:59 am

    “Montero, Jackson, Hughes, and Melky for Wells and Halladay”

    you’re on acid

  302. miggs July 8th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    re: Posada’s wife……..

    I mean without even seeing a picture up close you’d have to guess she had her nose and lips done, multiple face lifts, maybe even an eyebrow lift.

    And I’m not even going to go there regarding anything below the neck. Just look at the pictures, you can decide for yourself.

    Its not successful plastic surgery if you can spot it a mile away. Jorge should have spent the extra cash and sent her to the top notch guys in Beverly Hills.

  303. S.A.--It's a marathon, not a sprint. July 8th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    4. Yankees. Phil Hughes has regained his luster with some great bullpen work, plus one scout who recently saw catcher Jesus Montero and outfielder Austin Jackson said both are very impressive. The Yankees wouldn’t blink at Halladay’s salary, but it’s hard to imagine Toronto dealing him in-division.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html

  304. Christina- pictures from AAA Yanks game July 8th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    I can imagine the truth of things mentioned during that TV show with Posada’s wife is going to be very minimal. Would they air a show about slumpbusters and all the dirty cheating that goes on when her lovely husband is on the road?

  305. Giuseppe Franco July 8th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    E-gawa,

    Burnett was also 31 years old when he finally figured out the “less is more” approach.

    Joba is still pitching his first season out of the rotation.

    And Joba did throw 97-98 MPH in the 7th and 8th innings against Cleveland, which means the old Joba is still in there somewhere. It also suggests that speculators like yourself might be wrong about his shoulder not being right.

    He does throw 95-96 MPH now when he wants to dial it up a bit. He just doesn’t do it every pitch.

    I have no doubt that his velocity will increase when he gets himself in better shape, especially his legs.

    But Joba does amp up his velocity on occasion when he’s feeling it and gets himself into a rhythm. He did it against th Tigers, Boston, the Tribe, and the Braves.

    People are mking way too big of an issue about his velocity. He needs to learn how to pitch and use his velocity to his advantage when he needs it.

    There’s a lot more to pitching than throwing 96 MPH.

  306. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 8th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    “The Phillies can’t afford to pay Wells’ contract for the next 5 years. They are about to be forced into paying big bucks to their big firstbaseman, Howard…for a long time.”

    Wells would only be pawned on us not the NL teams.

  307. Joe July 8th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    I would be pretty upset with Cashman if he traded Hughes, Montero, Romine or Austin Jackson for Roy Halladay.

    And is it me or don’t you feel that Montero, Romine or Jackson have major upside for the future? Dealing them to a team in our own division is just a bad bad idea.

  308. S.A.--It's a marathon, not a sprint. July 8th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    One thing you have to realize is that the Blue Jays owner (Ted Rogers) has recently died and that the team is now owned by the businessmen who are running his estate. They don’t care about the rivalries…they are probably going to sell the team as soon as they can make it profitable.

    JP Ricciardi has to worry more about pleasing the owners over the next year or so than the fans. And, oh by the way, how many Blue Jay fans are there left to get angry. All the while that they were in the race this spring, they were drawing less than 22,000 fans per game.

    ====================================

    I still just don’t see it happening. The Blue Jays still have fans that could get angry, I just didn’t say what the amount of fans that were around.. :P

  309. jpb1973 July 8th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Montero, Jackson, Hughes, and Melky for Wells and Halladay.

    Scoff all you want, but that trade is a real possibility.

    ——————————————————

    If the Yankees take Wells’ contract off their hands, then they won’t have to give up as much to get the Halladay. Francessa was talking about that last week…the way to get a good player without giving up too much is to take a bad contract off the hands of the selling team. In this case the price for Halladay goes down if you take Wells’ contract (~$100 million over the next 5 years).

  310. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    Christina- pictures from AAA Yanks game
    July 8th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    I can imagine the truth of things mentioned during that TV show with Posada’s wife is going to be very minimal. Would they air a show about slumpbusters and all the dirty cheating that goes on when her lovely husband is on the road?

    ================

    That could be said for about 90% of reality TV. “Scripted” reality TV. Sadly, I’m not surprised that it permeates western culture.

    More garbage for the masses.

  311. miggs July 8th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    “Wells would only be pawned on us not the NL teams.”

    Based upon what?

    Why us and not the NL teams? Do you just make this stuff up?

  312. Rishi July 8th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    Here’s an early handicap of the Halladay sweepstakes. Warning! While I’m basing this list on some initial conversations with major-league executives, it is largely speculative. To my knowledge, none of the names mentioned below have even been discussed yet.

    Yankees. The Jays will not hesitate to dangle Halladay to the Yankees and Red Sox, who will be perhaps their two most fervent suitors. A’s GM Billy Beane never rules out trading within his division. Ricciardi, Beane’s former assistant, probably would not, either.

    Right-hander Clay Buchholz would likely be part of a Red Sox package for Halladay. (Stephen Dunn / Getty Images)

    The Yankees invested a combined $243.5 million on Sabathia and A.J. Burnett last offseason, and Halladay might be better than both of them. Right-hander Phil Hughes could top the team’s package, and one GM who recently examined the Yankees’ system says, “There are more intriguing guys down low than I anticipated.”

    Among them: Catchers Jesus Montero, 19 and Austin Romine, 20.

    Red Sox. Where the Yankees sniff, the Red Sox follow. No doubt the Sox could put together a stunning package for Halladay, starting with right-hander Clay Buchholz. They then would control Halladay and right-hander Josh Beckett through 2010 and lefty Jon Lester through ’14. Wow.
    Then again, the Red Sox could determine that their greater need is a hitter, and Indians catcher Victor Martinez still looms as an ideal option. The Indians would want Buchholz plus other prospects, but their price for Martinez would not be as steep as the Jays’ price for Halladay.

    Martinez, under club control through 2010, could play first base if the Red Sox needed Kevin Youkilis at third to replace Mike Lowell. He also could catch if Jason Varitek dropped off in the second half and spell David Ortiz at DH.

    Phillies. They repeatedly have asked about Halladay over the past two years, according to one major-league source.
    The Phillies’ farm system has improved significantly. At least one of their supposedly untouchables (outfielder Dominic Brown, right-hander Kyle Drabek, et al) presumably would be in play for Halladay.

    The greater issue for the Phils would be taking on Halladay’s salary when their payroll already is more than $130 million.

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....in-Toronto

  313. Doreen July 8th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    Baseball isn’t all that big a deal in Toronto. Almost an afterthought in the sports pages. I don’t think they’ll worry particularly about their fan base. Not to say that the fans they do have aren’t passionate. It’s not New York or Boston or Philly or Chicago, though as far as baseball appreciation goes. IMO, of course. :)

  314. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    Patrick-

    I see I misread your post. You were speaking hypothetically.

    Personally, I don’t see why so many people want Halliday so badly. He’s a great pitcher, but I think we are going to have the best rotation in the AL in the next few years even without him.

    I guess Joba just has folks nervous right now.

  315. m July 8th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    I think it’ll be more like Santana’s deal than Haren’s.

    I’m assuming an extension will be involved, so less leverage for Toronto.

    IF they want to add Wells to the deal (and really, why wouldn’t they?), there’s only one team (that’s stupid enough) to do that, right? :P

  316. DB July 8th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Montero, Jackson, Hughes, and Melky for Wells and Halladay”

    you’re on acid

    You got to give to get, You might think I’m on acid but that is a realistic trade. 2 top notch prospects and 2 guys who havent proved anything is what you would need to land Halliday and take the Wells contract off Torontos hands.

    I’m not saying I would do this deal, but the Yanks would be extremely tempted.

  317. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    “I’m not saying I would do this deal, but the Yanks would be extremely tempted.”

    No they won’t. Have you taken a look at Well’s contract, especially 2011-2014?

  318. G. Love July 8th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    I actually think that Montero is a deal breaker for Cashman and the Yankees.

    If he has to be in the deal I totally see them passing.

    Without PED’s in baseball, his kind of power is going to be rare.

  319. Timothy Leary July 8th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    Gardner-Montero-Ajax-Joba and we take Halladay/Rios

    Turn on, Tune in……

  320. DB July 8th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    I didn’t Wave, how bad is it?

    The Yanks have a lot of money coming off the books and are in a perennial search for a bonafide CF.

  321. DB July 8th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    Wave, is their a site you have where you can look contracts up? I’ve always had trouble finding that type of info.

  322. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    DB-

    Cot’s says $23MM for 2011, $21MM for each of 2012, 2013 and 2014.

  323. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    DB-

    Cot’s Baseball Contracts:

    http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/

  324. Tom in N.J. July 8th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    “Have you taken a look at Well’s contract, especially 2011-2014?”

    11:$23M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$21M

    http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.c.....ys_05.html

  325. DB July 8th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Montero looks like a stud, but that’s the thing. There are no sure fire hits in baseball. No Shaq or Ewing or Lebron that you know will be dominant. The guy has jumped from A ball to double AA, that’s it. Doc is a stud, hands down best pitcher in the AL.

  326. DB July 8th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    Thanks guys :)

  327. m July 8th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    espnews just did a segment. Did they get it wrong? They say he has a NTC.

    Then they showed video of Doc answerin questions. Says he doesn’t want to be a distraction. Just keep working, keep an open mind, and listening to the possibilities is the extent of it so far in his opinion.

    He looks like that actor that played the butler from Scary movie? The one with the mangled hand? Chris something?

  328. E-gawa July 8th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Giuseppe Franco,

    Anyway you want to try and explain it, it’s still not normal. There has not been a healthy pitcher that has dropped 5+mph average on the fastball in 1 year.

  329. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    DB-

    That’s just it with Montero. A lot of people have already decided he’s going to be a perennial All-Star catcher. He’s not there yet.

  330. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Roy Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball. That’s why you look at him.

    When it’s known v. Unknown, you pick known everytime.

    Chamberlain-Pena-Romine-lower level minor leaguer.

    You put an offer like that on the table and see if it works.

    That’s a deal that while, hurting a little, is palatable for the Yankees.

    Still have Hughes, Montero and Nunez.

    The Jays get a starter to replace Halladay, their starting SS for next year, and their catcher of the future.

    If the Phillies, top it? So be it.

    If Doc though decides he wants to go to NY, that’s where he will go.

    It’s the power of a full no trade clause.

  331. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    I am getting worried you guys might try to trade me to Toronto for Halladay

  332. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Erica-

    Can you catch? :)

  333. vinny-b (RIP Air McNair) July 8th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    how bad is the Wells contract??

    the Yankees could probably trade Phil Hughes for Roy Halladay & Vernon Wells

  334. Bronx Jeers July 8th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    M,

    He does have a NTC.

    I’m not sure what actor you’re talking about but he does look a lot like Gary Busey’s son.

  335. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    E-gawa July 8th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Giuseppe Franco,

    Anyway you want to try and explain it, it’s still not normal. There has not been a healthy pitcher that has dropped 5+mph average on the fastball in 1 year.

    ================

    Agreed, the “it’s-only-mechanics” theory makes no sense to me. He might have hit 96 or 97 in a few games with a few pitches, but he was averaging 97-98, averaging, when he came up.

    It’s true that the speed is overrated, but that’s only if you have great secondary pitches and know how to get a guy out. Right now, Joba doesn’t know how to put guys away effectively. And he’s throwing his secondary pitches for balls.

    Again, it’s not “just mechanics,” no way. That might be factored in to it, but I’d say there’s still something hurting him a bit.

  336. m July 8th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    Chris Elliot (had to cheat)

  337. ... July 8th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    If you take on the 106 mil or so that is the remainder of Wells’ contract, then hah, I’d go no higher than 2 B-listers. (12.5+23+21+21+21 mil for years 2010-2014, plus a 8.5 mil bonus installment to be paid on March 1, 2010)

  338. m July 8th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    Did the YES guys say that hitters are laying off the slider now? They gave a reason, just forgot what it was.

  339. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    No way. No Wells in this deal. It’s not worth it.

  340. ... July 8th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    Btw, since that 8.5 mil bonus installment is part of the signing bonus, does that count toward luxury tax or no?

  341. G July 8th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    I think the Phillies are going to go after him and likely land him. But I dont think it’ll be this year.

  342. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    m
    July 8th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    Did the YES guys say that hitters are laying off the slider now? They gave a reason, just forgot what it was.

    =============

    Wait, is that sarcasm? If not, the answer is he doesn’t throw the slider for strikes.

  343. DB July 8th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    Wow is that Wells contract bad. He is being paid as an elite player with no where near the numbers. I don’t get it, he hit .240 / .402 / .303 / 16 /80 in 07. Why give him that contract?

  344. Tom B July 8th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....ade-value/

    You all need to read this. Then you can stop talking about Roy Halladay.

  345. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    WYH-

    Not well :-)

  346. DB July 8th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    Joba’s slider was flat last game. Most of the hard hit balls were off a fat slider in the zone.

  347. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    New thread everyone. More room to talk about Roy Halladay :arrow:

  348. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    New thread everyone. More room to talk about Roy Halladay :arrow:

  349. m July 8th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Stultus,

    No, not sarcasm. Was it that because he’s struggling with the fastball…(he doesn’t have the devastating fastball/slider combo like he did before)…now hitters are just sitting on pitches?

    I think, too, they said he’s predictable, especially when he shakes off the catcher. Slider!

  350. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Erica-

    Then we’d need to add a few more players to the deal!

  351. Erica - always OPPC July 8th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    WYH-

    Not too many. I would like to think I have very high trade value :grin:

  352. Stultus Magnus July 8th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    Yeah, he is not consistently throwing his slider for strikes. The book on Joba is lay off the slider. That’s a reason why he struck out 12 in that Red Sox game because they were not gonna bite at the slider but he was actually throwing it for strikes.

  353. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Wells is not going to be in the deal. Its not even worth discussing because the Yankees (and Red Sox for that matter) have turned down numerous overtures from JP to take on the contract.

    Joba’s loss in velocity is mechanics related and conditioning related. Its not arm or shoulder related.

    You get your power with your legs. His legs aren’t in the shape they need to be.

    Therefore, velocity and mechanics aren’t consistently sustainable.

    One of the reasons why if I was JP I would ask for Chamberlain rather than Hughes in any Doc talks with the Yankees is that if Joba gets in better shape, he’s the better prospect than Hughes. His stuff is more dynamic, especially when in better shape.

    Either way, the Yankees “win” per se because if you lose one, you still have the other.

    Most teams don’t have one guy with the upside of either Hughes or Chamberlain. The Yankees have two, which is why they will be in the mix for Doc.

    Teams like the Yankees build their farm systems up for two reasons: To replenish their roster with cheaper alternatives and to have enough depth to acquire a big fish and not drain your system.

    The Yankees now have that ability.

  354. Wave Your Hat July 8th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Erica-

    Well, I hope Pete doesn’t call you into his office to tell you the organization (his blog) wants to make a change…

  355. ... July 8th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    DB: Cot’s says that contract was an extension he signed in December 2006. And it looks like he had a great season that year. So, yea, folly of signing people after career years?

  356. jpb1973 July 8th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    how bad is the Wells contract??

    the Yankees could probably trade Phil Hughes for Roy Halladay & Vernon Wells

    ———————————————–

    To be honest with you…I don’t think the Yankees (or any other team) would have to give up that much to get Halladay and Wells if they accept BOTH of their contracts (thats a tall order but the Yanks could do it). The Blue Jays are desperate to get rid of Wells’ contract and adding Halladay into the mix makes it is what makes it more palletable. But…how many teams can afford Wells’ contract?

    I still think that the Yanks could get the pair (Wells & Halladay for Aceves, Gardner (or Melky if the Jays prefer) and 2 or 3 low leve minor leaguers like Ivan Nova and Edwar Nunez. remember, its the Blue Jays that are desperate…not the Yankees.

  357. jpb1973 July 8th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    Wells is not going to be in the deal. Its not even worth discussing because the Yankees (and Red Sox for that matter) have turned down numerous overtures from JP to take on the contract.

    ————————————————-

    How many of those overtures included Roy Halladay????

  358. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    Nobody will take on 100 million dollar deal AND sign Roy Halladay to an extension.

    It makes no baseball or fiscal sense.

  359. Patrick from CT July 8th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    If you look at this like the Peavy White Sox deal, Doc is only going to be trade if he wants to be.
    One would thing the Yankees and Red Sox would top the list of any player and both teams have the $$ and players to trade.
    It’s also going to take an extension that has him making over 100mil for the next 4-5 years.
    I don’t think a trade happens with either the Red Sox or Yankees though. The price is going to be real high and neither team really needs him.

  360. Anthony Murillo July 8th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Let’s be real here…

    If the New York Yankees have an oppertunity to acquire Roy Halladay, they have to do it. They passed on Johan Santana in favor of ‘Generation Next’ Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy, and Joba Chamberlain. And guess what? It blew up in the face of the Yankees.

    I understand the need to develop players. I really do. But let’s really be serious here for one moment…most of us Yankee fans don’t have the patience to develop our prospects. Those same people that said “Bah, forget Johan Santana! We have Generation Next!” are the SAME people who, after they sucked in 2008, posted “Man the Yankees dropped the ball on Santana. We might have clinched a playoff berth if he was our ace…”

    Trading a Phil Hughes, Robinson Cano, Joba Chamberlain, Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera, or whoever the Blue Jays want for Roy Halladay is okay in my book.

    Joba Chamberlain and Robinson Cano are a little too comfortable being in New York, in my opinion. Joba had the nerve to say “At least I still have a job” or something to that affect. How the hell can Joba say something like? If General George was still the George of old, he would say something to the affect of “If you keep pitching the way you do, let’s see if you still have a job.” These players have ZERO accountablity to their poor performances.

    If you didn’t see Robinson Cano player every day and you looked at his stats and see his .300 batting average, you might think he’s a tremendous player. But, again, let’s all be real here for a moment…Robinson Cano is a lazy player. We all can see that, we’ve all commented on it. Look at how Cano performed as the #5 hitter. How many Yankees did he leave on the bases?

    I have no problem giving any of those guys, sans maybe Montero and Jackson, for a winner like Hallday. A starting rotation of:

    Halladay, Sabathia, Burnett, Wang, [insert #5 starter]

    That rotation is unbeatable. It’s almost unfair! This rotation could lead the Yankees to a World Series Championship NOW and MORE in the future.

    Let’s lock this title NOW. Let’s show everyone we’re not afraid to do what it takes to win for now AND the future. Halladay might be 31 or 32 but that guy is money. He’s an ace, he’s a winner. Just like Sabathia and Burnett are.

    If we have a shot to make this happen, then Cashman should make it happen.

    Let’s lock this baby up for 2009 and beyond.

  361. G. Love July 8th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    Anthony Murillo,

    I agree with you on every point except that Cano not hitting in the 5 hole is from laziness.

    I think he’s actually trying too hard to get runners in and is swinging like a wild man hoping to knock in an RBI.

    That’s not lazy. That’s just bad approach.

    And believe me, last season I was the conductor on the “Cano is lazy” train because he was.

    That said, I agree with everything else you wrote.

  362. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    What’s going to be interesting is to see what the Jays do if the Yankee offer (and there will be one) is the best offer on the table.

    That is when the rubber will meet the road.

    Deal him to NY, keep him, or trade him to a NL team.

    Gonna be fun to watch, that’s for sure!

  363. G. Love July 8th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    SJ,

    I know. I seriously can’t wait to see it play out. I love trade season and off season moves and the dance that goes into them something fierce.

    I have a feeling he’s going to be a Yankee or a Brewer before all is said and done.

  364. SJ44 July 8th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    GLove,

    Its one of those rare moments the Yankees not only have the pieces to do the deal, they have ready made replacements for the guys that would be included in such a deal.

    They literally can do this deal, as long as Montero isn’t in it (he is probably the only true off limits guy), and not miss a beat.

    The Phillies prospects, especially their higher end prospects, aren’t as good, or are as close to the majors, as the Yankees prospects.

    For example: Kyle Drabek is coming off TJ surgery and isn’t close to ML ready. Bastardo has a bad shoulder and is on the DL. Neither guy is a Hughes or Chamberlain level prospect.

    Michael Taylor and Dominic Brown are nice prospects. Melky Cabrera is better than both of them right now and Austin Jackson is too.

    Problem is, the Blue Jays have a lot of OF’s. They lack healthy, front line starting pitching from the right side.

    Lou Marston isn’t even as good as Austin Romine and Austin is probably the third or fourth best C prospect in the Yankees system right now.

    Jason Donald? Not as good as Ramiro Pena right now. I’ll also take Nunez’s bat over Donald. Although, Donald has a much better glove than Nunez.

    Also, are the Phillies ready to take their payroll over the 150 million mark? That’s what it will be if they sign him to an extension.

    If they don’t, are you ready to trade 4 good prospects for 1 1/2 years of Roy Halladay?

    Sometimes, things come up that make you alter your original plan. That’s what happened in the off-season with Mark Teixeira.

    When people say, “they won’t trade young pitching for Santana, why for Halladay”? They HAD Hughes in the Santana deal. Bill Smith was dumb enough to say “no”.

    JMO but, if Montero is not in the deal, and JP isn’t asking for BOTH Hughes and Chamberlain, I don’t see how the Yankees don’t step up and get the guy.

    You would have CC-Doc-AJ and one of the young guns tied up for the next 3-4 years. That’s just ridiculous.

    It forces everybody in the division to play catch up.

    The one thing JP can’t do is take a lesser package because he won’t deal the guy in the division. That’s the worst thing a GM can do and that’s why I don’t think he will do it.

    Billy Beane doesn’t think like that and JP worships his mentor. I don’t think the division stuff is even an issue.

    An issue of will, some guts and convincing ownership this is a move to make.

    Who knows if it will happen but, its fun to banter about the possibilities.

  365. blackjack July 8th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    The Yankees should do everything in their power to get this guy. He is a solid #1 ace, and would give them a devastating 1-2-3 punch at least for the next 2 years, maybe 5 years. People need to remember that Mariano, Jeter, Posada are not going to be playing for much longer.

    They have the pieces right now, and for the next couple of years, I believe they should go for it. Offer them Joba or Hughes, Romine, Melky and another minor league pitcher.

    There is no guarantee any of these players will make such an impact as Halladay would for the next two years. The future is not promised to anyone.

  366. Jake July 8th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    I honestly think the Yankees are gonna get Halladay… Cashman and everyone in the front office knows that if they get Halladay that it will definitely mean playoffs and most likely world series win! They will take a hit on one or 2 prospects, but they will also get the best pitcher in the league. ALSO since we have AJ, a close friend of Halladay’s. that will make it SO much EASIER to resign him to a contract..it also helps that we have an unbelievable team locked up in arod, tex, cc, and AJ.
    He would be stupid to not resign with us..so i think somehow, someway, Cashman works up the right offer to get it done.

    They said they need a catcher and shortstop?
    Well you make a deal with ramiro pena, cervelli/romine, and 2 other good prospects involved.

    I would give them Ian Kennedy, Ramiro pena, one of romine or cervelli, and Melancon (cuz they need a closer since B.J. ryan isnt what he used to be), and we will also take all of the rest of the Halladay’s contract. I think that is a fair deal..maybe sub in/out Melancon for a different/higher prospect, but i think that definitely supplies their needs. and gives them a 3 good prospects in IPK, Pena, and cervelli/romine

  367. KO July 8th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    the Yankees aren’t trading for Halladay, nobody here nor anywhere should waste their breath or time or w/e talking about it. By the way PA, the GM for the Jays doesn’t have to build a market for Roy Halladay. It was there already. It’s Roy Halladay. Wake up man.

  368. Jeff in Canada July 8th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    As a Yankee fan in Canada (my Irish grandfather moved here from New York and raised us properly..;-)), I may need to hideout for a few years if the Yankees trade for Doc. Nearly everyone in this country – a country with one division – hates the Yankees. Doc has been their sole reason for tolerating an otherwise underacheiving team the last 10 years.

    If Riccardi trades Doc to the Yankees, call Ripley’s because he’s got stones of titanium – and considering the number of soccer players in the Toronto area, he might need them. He’ll be the Peter Pocklington of baseball in Canada, and he’ll risk losing a large portion of an already sparse fan base.

    That all being said, I agree completely with SJ, that he’ll get his best return from the Yankees. I’ll go further and suggest that if he doesn’t trade with the Yankees now, he may never get a better return going forward…from anyone. Seattle may be in the same position with Ichiro, or will be soon.

    I hope Hal, Hank and C-money get this right. Doc is the most consistent arm in the game, and his work ethic is unmatached. You want a guy who can handle pressure, comes to work every day and brings it home every night, and has Woods-like focus on acheiving his goals? Doc is the complete package, a sure-thing. This acquisition would make as much, if not more sense, as getting Teixeira. *Reliable* pitching is what won the Yankees their championships. This could be “Maddox, Glavine, Smoltz”-esque in NY.

    It will be fun watching how all of this goes down.

  369. DetroitSucks July 9th, 2009 at 9:09 am

    One thing being overlooked is that Halladay likes to stay in the game as long as possible–he moves to the NL and suddenly he’s sitting on his hands, unable to help his team in late innings when he’s pinch hit for in the 6th or 7th.

    White Sox should have this locked up. Beckham only recently converted to 3rd after playing shortstop his entire career. He’ll be happy to be back at SS and the Blue Jays will have a guy in Beckham who sells tickets from day 1.

    And the White Sox have a pretty good bullpen with a couple of solid options for closing out games behind Halladay’s 7+ inning starts.

  370. poop July 10th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Yankee fans guess what?, I am pretty sure and have a good strong feeling that were gonna have a another doctor in the stadium other than gene monahan later this year or next year if the office plays their cards right!!

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