Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jul 08, 2009 
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The Yankees once again beat the Twins as CC Sabathia went seven strong.
Alfredo Aceves will start in place of Chien-Ming Wang tomorrow. This notebook also has updates on Roy Halladay, trouble in Triple-A and Jose Molina.
Francisco Cervelli is headed back to the minors soon but he made a big impression on the Yankees.
Sam Borden was over at Citi Field last night and writes that the once-unique Manny Ramirez is just another cheater.
Bronx Jeers, I still would not trade Joba or Hughes. I want both of them in the rotation for years to come. Yes, I realize that the odds of any pitcher becoming Halladay are slim to none, but that really doesn’t mean much to me. They are young and I do expect them to be studs. How many Halladays are out there anyway? Doesn’t mean that they aren’t ace types…..
A repost from the other thread.
SJ44 is right, if Halladay is indeed going to get traded, there are two reasons why he won’t get traded to the Yankees.
1. He doesn’t want to be a Yankee for whatever reason.
2. The Yankees didn’t offer the best package of players for him in return to the Jays.
However SG44,
Not to be combative, but how do you know that Halladay doesn’t have any issues with NY? Is this your opinion or a fact?
The thing is Betsy, when you can put up 3 guys like CC, AJ and Halladay in a row, well I don’t have to tell you what that means.
CC + Halladay = Unit + Schilling circa 2001. Then add AJ.
SJ’s answering questions in the last thread
Ya Let alfredo be a starter!!!! He has earned it! Should have been done long ago. All he does is get outs.
I think the simple fact alone that Toronto and NY are in the same division pretty much says it all. No way Halliday will be a Yankee.
Cheers to Cervelli for doing such a good job. I think he showed that he has a bright future, but for now I’m happy to see him go back to the minors to get in regular work with the confidence that he’ll certainly be back.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo....._on_e.html
I heard about this a while ago. Sounds like an interesting show.
Halliday would be a great get, but remember he’s an icon of that organization. That, in my opinion makes it much less likely they would deal him within the division. I would guess it’ll be Philly or the Dodgers.
While it’s true Halliday controls where he’ll agree to play there’s no urgency for Ricciardi to make a deal.
But IF you want him tell us what you are willing to pay as a price… assuming a three year extension for more than $ 50 Million is going to be required to get Doc’s okay.
I think it’s safe to assume that Hughes or Chamberlain would have to be part of any deal.
jennifer she was just on Boomer and Carton. She sounds like a very nice lady.
“I think the simple fact alone that Toronto and NY are in the same division pretty much says it all. No way Halliday will be a Yankee”
Unless Cashman is willing to give up the farm. I don’t see it either.
SJ44,
Thank you for the response in the other thread, but AJ is now an east coast type of guy due to his wife and I’m not sure about Halladay wanting to come here. I hope you’re right and that I’m just being paranoid about that possibility.
He wouldn’t be giving up the farm to get him
I would trade Hughes or Joba in a heartbeat for Halladay. I have serious doubts that either of them will be as good as Halladay has been in his career. Nothing against those two young pitchers, but the odds are against them when it comes to baseball odds.
You mean like Cone and Clemens? They were in the same division and where did they end up?
The division means nothing.
Its all about which team makes the best deal AND if Doc wants to go to that team.
If its an AL East team, that’s where he will go.
“I would trade Hughes or Joba in a heartbeat for Halladay. I have serious doubts that either of them will be as good as Halladay has been in his career. Nothing against those two young pitchers, but the odds are against them when it comes to baseball odds.”
If that was the deal, you do it, but it will never be that type of deal.
There’s great urgency to do the deal this year.
If not, he gets less in the off-season and next year and he knows it.
That’s why the clock is ticking.
He doesn’t have a big market for him.
That’s why the, “giving up the farm” stuff won’t happen, no matter who gets him.
We heard the same stuff about Santana and how much did the Mets give up for him?
Also, for those who think Cashman won’t deal a young pitcher, folks have short memories.
The final Yankee offer, the one Bill Smith turned down, was Hughes, Cabrera and Marquez for Santana.
Smith took quantity over quality and missed. I don’t think JP is as dumb as Smith.
If he gets a quality offer from an AL or AL East team, he’s going to look to make that deal.
SI_JonHeyman halladay gave #jays gm go-ahead to find a trade for him. friend says he’s “shy” but thinks he’d approve ny, phil, bos.
We have one huge advantage over Philly and Boston. AJ Burnett.
SJ44 if you don’t mind playing GM/scout for us…..which one would you move, Joba or Hughes?
Jennifer-
They were talking about Laura Posada’s E! appearance on some morning radio show. It doesn’t sound like she says anything particularly juicy. She apparently only says that people have very wrong ideas about players wives and most are very sweet people
That E show actually sounds interesting. I saw a commercial for it yesterday and think it will be interesting to see what life is like from that point of view. I didn’t realize Jorge’s wife was in the show (commercial was mostly showing Mrs. Hamels and I understand why!) but that just draws my interest a bit more. I’m not the kind who can really get into shows like “The Real Housewives of Someplace” but this seems different.
I think it would be a good idea if JP got an idea from Doc as to the teams he would accept a trade to. It would be a waste of time (like with the aborted Peavy to White Sox trade) to spend all that time working on a deal only to have Doc refuse it.
In the end, we can speculate all we want, but no one knows what’s in the man’s heart. What makes sense to us doesn’t necessarily make sense to him. Maybe he wants to play for the Rockies (he’s from CO), or maybe he wants to play in California. The only way JP is really restricted is if Doc insists on remaining in the AL East, because then the Sox and Yanks don’t have to give up the farm, just enough to get the Jays to agree to a deal (unless they decided they’d rather have the picks)
The reason why this team will be a great fit for Halladay is even though he’s shy, he won’t be the “guy” that the media goes to all the time.
He has CC, AJ, Mo, Jeter, Arod and such. He can blend in with this team like Mussina and Clemens did with the Yankees.
My opinion remains, I don’t want Halladay unless the Jays give us an incredible deal…
That means I wouldn’t give up any of the following:
Hughes, Chamberlain, Montero, Cano
So would a deal of Melancon, Jackson, McAllister, Romine get a deal done? I doubt it but that’s the most I’d give up for Halladay.
according to Olney Doc hated the old YS, you can just imagine how he feels about the new one.
Blue Jays probably wouldn’t want Jackson. per SJ44 they have a lot of OFs in the organization. Not to mention the have Wells locked up.
I think Cash was ordered by Hank to put Hughes on the table for Santana. In no way do I ever think he wanted to do that…….
JP has to save a little face and if Joba or Hughes is the cost of doing business with the Yankees then good luck to Phil or Joba with their new team.
Ugh.. Manny is just another cheater? That’s silly.
What about all the players in baseball history that took amphetamines so they could stay fresh every day? Are they just cheaters too?
Yeah I’m defending Manny, crazy right? This steroid thing is getting out of hand.
I go on vacation for a week and the hot stove is lit like a roman candle on the 4th of July.
Halliday may be shy, but he’s not mentally weak like a Kenny Rogers. If he were to come here he’d continue to be great.
The only question is: what would it take to get him? I see SJ is mentioning either Joba or Hughes as a starting point. That seems logical.
If you want a comparable guy in temperment to Doc, its Jimmy Key.
A lot of “experts” felt Key didn’t have the personality to play in NY. He was too “shy” and, “didn’t like big cities” (as if Toronto was some hick town! lol) and, “didn’t have the makeup” to play in NY.
If you talk to guys who played with Jimmy Key, especially the pitchers, they all LOVED him.
He busted it everyday. He worked with the young guys, and was a great teammate.
In essence, that’s Doc.
From the other thread….
If I’m Cash, I have to start out with Joba and Romine in the offer.
Why Joba? Because he has a higher ceiling, is less coachable than Hughes, and if I can get Halladay for Joba, I’d be neglect in my duties not to try.
Its not a knock to Joba. We are talking about trading him for the best RH pitcher in baseball. Gotta give up quality to get quality and its gotta hurt a little bit.
It would hurt to trade Joba. It would hurt more to me (if I’m the GM) to lose Halladay to Boston for example because I wouldn’t trade Joba. JMO but, you can’t do that.
Why Romine? Because of ALL the players in the system, the one real untouchable is Jesus Montero. That’s the one guy who would cause me to walk away from the deal if he had to be included in the deal, if I was the GM.
The Yankees have a ton of catching depth in the system. They can absorb a Romine loss and the Jays need catching.
After that? I’d submit a list of 10 names and tell JP to pick 2 from the list.
Unless I get word through the grapevine my offer is too light, and he is headed to Boston, I’d stand pat on that offer and see where it goes.
My only untouchable is Montero and it has to either with Joba or Hughes, not both of them.
In my opinion, where there’s smoke, there’s fire.
The fact that NY is being mentioned as a trade destination and Doc has said he wouldn’t rule out NY means the Yankees are probably looking into a deal as we speak.
Patrick, I agree. I don’t care if Phil or Joba don’t turn out to be Halladay – they don’t need to be. They just need to be very good/to excellent SP for a longtime. Sure it’s a risk – but we went through this last year with Santana (yes, I know Doc is better). I’m not willing to give up 6/7 years for a guy who is 32 years old. SJ, I don’t recall you being in favor of including Hughes in a package for Santana, and Santana is 4 years younger than Doc. Why the change of heart? Also, I thought I read a post or two from you yesterday saying unless it was Phil/Joba straight up for Doc, you would definitely not doe that deal…
Patrick, greenies aren’t cheating because Mays, Mantle, Aaron, et al. took them.
Something to watch tonight when the Yanks are up 14-2…
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo....._on_e.html
Tom in N.J. July 8th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Patrick, greenies aren’t cheating because Mays, Mantle, Aaron, et al. took them.
Got to protect the stats of the players that the journalist grew up watching!
Betsy,
If Bill Smith said, “yes”, that deal was done and Hughes was off to Minnesota.
Hank had nothing to do with it.
Cano wouldn’t be in a Doc deal because they have Aaron Hill in place.
Hughes or Chamberlain would be in the deal though.
I would give up one of them to get Doc.
Montero? As I’ve said earlier, that’s the dealbreaker for me. I’d walk away before dealing Montero because he has greater upside than anybody, Hughes and Joba included, in the system right now.
Patrick,
Substitute Joba for Jackson and that’s the best offer JP will get for Halladay IMO.
He would be nuts not to take it and the Yankees would be nuts not to do that deal if those were the terms.
One thing I’ll say in favor of a Halladay deal. I think J.P. Ricciardi would have no problem trading within the division. Billy Beane does it all the time. The theory is you trade a guy like Halladay to an in-division rival which allows them to be dominant for the next few years but the prospects you get back allows your team to be dominant in the 3-4 years after the initial 2 years.
So in the long run trading within your division helps your team and hurts the competition. The Jays know they aren’t going to the playoffs in the next 2 years but by taking an in-division rival’s prospects they help themselves down the road.
That being said, I still don’t think the Yankees get Halladay.
I’ve no doubt Doc would thrive in NY – he could pitch on the Moon with his stuff
“What about all the players in baseball history that took amphetamines so they could stay fresh every day? Are they just cheaters too?”
I usually don’t chime in about the PED stuff, but it’s funny when people compare amphetamines to steroids.
They are two entirely different things.
Love Sam Borden’s style.
Manny is just another cheater, true. But there comes a point at which the guesswork about the actual number of cheaters begins to make the known ones seems to fade into a larger, numbing context. It makes individual cheaters seem less arch, unfortunately giving them camoflauge in numbers.
So what’s the issue? Why are some cheaters getting on with life and some getting kicked? Well, it’s not the cheating, sadly. Seems to come down to personality and apology. Do many people really harbor strong ill will against Giambi? Everybody loves the guy. Ortiz? (Although not outed if he infact used PEDs, he is roundly loved throughout the game). Pettitte? Except for Harper at the Daily News, most people like him. Brian Roberts on the Orioles… no further trouble. Just to name a few.
The bad guys: Clemens – need I say more? Bonds, a Huge Jerk. A-Rod? An emotionally challenged man-child with tendencies to selfishness and self aggrandizement. Manny? Pushing travelling secretaries, quitting on the team with fake injuries just to make more money somewhere else. He’s a Complete Grade A jerk. Palmiero? A liar and a cheat. Ditto Tejada.
Sorry to say it but it seems to me that one way the fans are dealing with the steroid era is a two part test: a) did he lie about it, b) is he likeable, is he more like their own image of themselves. That nice guy seemingly gets a pass, if not a pardon, at least from the fans. A-Rod is a great test case. He got outed and apologized. Now, if he changes his act and becomes more humble, shall we say, I bet he’ll enjoy a resurgence of support.
The HOF voters have the last word, however.
Will they succumb to the “nice guy/truth teller” exemption? We’ll have to wait and see – but if early results are any gauge, the first line of “cheaters” are going to have a hard time getting in.
Finally, will the BBWAA cop to their own willful blindness somewhere along the way? While not a cause of the problem, certainly, there is an issue there that must be addressed: Judge not, lest ye be judged, for credulous reportage.
Betsy,
The change of heart is that the dynamics of the Yankees has changed since the Santana trade. The Yankees now have CC and AJ. You add Halladay with Wang and either Hughes or Joba, it gives you more time to develop other young pitching while being the WS favorite due to the quality of the Yankees starting staff.
Hank did have something to do with it because I don’t think Phil ever would have been on the table if it wasn’t for him. Fortunately, Smith took stupid and greedy pills.
joba,romine,melancon,brackman.
in a second.
this is a deal that can win a ws for the yankees for a few years in a row.
we become much much better instantly.
Also, along with Joba and Romine. The Yankees will have to include two other prospects. It’s going to take four players.
“I usually don’t chime in about the PED stuff, but it’s funny when people compare amphetamines to steroids.
They are two entirely different things.”
actually they’re not…not even in the eyes of MLB as amphetamines are currently on the list of banned PEDs…
Betsy,
Roy Halladay is a better pitcher than Johan Santana.
He’s also going to be more durable.
His style of pitching, as well as his arm slot, is more sustainable over the long haul.
He is an extreme groundball pitcher.
He not only has had success in the AL East, and the AL in general, he has been dominant.
You don’t throw that away to prospect hug. At least I don’t.
If you move one of the young guys, you still have the other.
That’s good enough.
The guy is too good not to work to see if you can get him.
If you can’t? No harm, no foul, unless he goes to Boston.
If you can, and you have a CC-Doc-AJ-Pettitte- and either Wang (if he is healthy) or Aceves rotation the rest of the way, I’ll take my chances with that group.
Especially when I know I have one of the young guns ready to assume a spot in the rotation next year.
I just read the Yahoo recap of the game last night. CC said he thought it helped him last night that he had faced the Twins so many times before when he was in the AL Central.
We all know it helps the batters when they have seen a pitcher before. How much of an advantage do you think there is when the pitcher knows the hitters? And wouldn’t you think at some point they would cancel each other out?? Or would the pitcher ultimately have a greater advantage
“In my opinion, where there’s smoke, there’s fire.”
How so ? you know we are always put into trade discussion to drive up the price. Always.
If the Yankees deal Jackson, they have no future CF for atleast 4-5 yrs. unless they dip into FA or luck out in a trade.
If your Toronto there is no way, none what so ever that you even trade him in the division. Your gonna face the team 19 times a yr. and the fans will continue to let you know it. Olney said most like 2 top fives and the best have to be atleast B prospects.
scenerio 1 : Jackson, Hughes or Joba + Romine, Banuelos, McAllister
scenerio 2: Montero, Hughes or Joba + Banuelos, Romine, Dunn
still want to do it ? either way you put yourself back 4-5 yrs. in one key position.
And no the Jays don’t want Robi b/c Aaron Hill is thier 2B.
SJ44,
Yup, sign me up.
Cash, I get your point, but just how many Hughes or Joba’s do you see in the Yankees farm system? Nope, I’m not pinning my hopes on Brackman, Garcia (injured again), McCallister (not close to Joba or Phil as a prospect) to develop into aces. Of course you can never guarantee anything with young pitchers…..but nothing has changed for me since Santana with regards to trading Phil.
“Substitute Joba for Jackson and that’s the best offer JP will get for Halladay IMO.”
Maybe so but I wouldn’t trade Joba in any deal for Halladay, as we discussed at length yesterday
The only thing I’d trade Joba for is a guy like Lincecum, Braun, Ramirez (hanley), etc
OBVIOUSLY no team would ever do that trade so basically what I’m saying is, I wouldn’t trade Joba period.
“Also, I thought I read a post or two from you yesterday saying unless it was Phil/Joba straight up for Doc, you would definitely not doe that deal…”
That was me and a few others saying that actually. SJ44 was arguing against my point.
new post
And I don’t think I’m prospect hugging, I just have a difference of opinion. There are valid points on all side of the debate – no, I don’t think it’s a no brainer either way.
i wonder if joba steps it up with all these trade rumors involving him.
it would be great if he becomes nasty.
the time is now joba.
Assuming Ricciardi is willing to let Halladay go within the division, yes, IMO, SJ is right that it will take Joba or Hughes and probably Romine, (although weaker bat Cervelli is MLB ready-to-catch right now), plus a little more. I’d think the Jays would want Joba for the flash factor.
But man-oh-man the outcry from the media if after the All Star Break the Yankees’ rotation looks like CC, AJ, Doc, Wang and Pettitte with Hughes in the wings. 24/7/365 attack mode from Red Sox Nation/ESPN; renewed cries of “break up the Yankees.”
nady getting tj surjery today per wfan
“actually they’re not…not even in the eyes of MLB as amphetamines are currently on the list of banned PEDs…”
No actually they are two different things because they have completely different effects.
Steroids and Amphetamines do two completely different things to your body.
Hockey post is not a new post
From amphetamines.com….”amphetamines are potent psychomotor stimulants. Their use causes a release of the excitatory neurotransmitters dopamine and noradrenaline (norepinephrine) from storage vesicles in the CNS. Amphetamines may be sniffed, swallowed, snorted or injected. They induce exhilarating feelings of power, strength, energy, self-assertion, focus and enhanced motivation. The need to sleep or eat is diminished. The release of dopamine typically induces a sense of aroused euphoria which may last several hours: unlike cocaine, amphetamine is not readily broken down by the body. Feelings are intensified. The user may feel he can take on the world. ” …sounds like a PED to me.
Brandon,
I don’t see the Yankees giving up Jackson, Hughes or Joba + Romine, Banuelos, McAllister. That’s too much because the Jays are getting a ML pitcher in either Hughes or Joba. If the Yankees include Jackson then Banuelos and McAllister will be off the table with a lesser prospect included.
raymagnetic
Still gives you an advantage.
“They are two entirely different things.”
Can you expand on this? They certainly aren’t the same thing but they are both drugs that improve performance. They are now banned for a reason..
Things like HGH haven’t been proven to help a player at all. You could argue that steroids HAVE helped players because the amount of home runs we saw were off the charts ridiculous. However, there isn’t any concrete evidence or study done to prove it either way.
Joba Chamberlain is not an untouchable when Roy Halladay is in play.
He is for lesser guys. Not for Roy Halladay.
Brandon,
Its been shown time and time again that inter-division trades happen if the teams match up. that won’t stand in the way of a deal.
“CC said he thought it helped him last night that he had faced the Twins so many times before when he was in the AL Central.”
Not only did he face them quite a bit, he OWNED them. 6-1 with an ERA around 1.40 I think were his numbers going in. Twins hitters went up looking like they knew they had no chance against them….and they were right.
“Cash, I get your point, but just how many Hughes or Joba’s do you see in the Yankees farm system? Nope, I’m not pinning my hopes on Brackman, Garcia (injured again), McCallister (not close to Joba or Phil as a prospect) to develop into aces. Of course you can never guarantee anything with young pitchers…..but nothing has changed for me since Santana with regards to trading Phil.”
Betsy,
It gives them time to find another, perhaps Chapman. The Yankees are only giving up one of them so with CC, AJ and Halladay being the top 3 starters the Yankees have time to develop somebody else.
I’ll say it again. If the yanks are to pull the trigger on a Hughes or Joba based deal for Halladay NOW at age 32, why didn’t they do it for Santana who was turning 28 (at the time)? Seems like a no brainer. Equally good pitchers. The Mets got johan for a sack of potatoes and 3 very average prospects.
It’s been 9 years now since the last World Series Championship. If they rotation is really strong as it is. However, CC and Wang are no good in the post season. AJ and Joba are wild cards. Andy is a sure thing for 6-7 innings, 2-3 runs. Even though Halladay has no post season experience, the Yanks have to strongly, strongly, strongly consider this trade. Montero and Jackson are untouchable.
only yesterday was SJ saying there is no way that Halladay is gonna get traded to the east: SJ44
_____________________
July 7th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Hallady is fantasy. He isn’t getting traded by the Jays to any AL East team unless that team is stupid enough to give up their Top 4 prospects to do so.
In other words, unless JP can hose an AL East team, he isn’t trading Halladay to a team in his own division. That’s career suicide and JP has not lasted that long in the gig being that dumb.
______________________________________
Today he changed his tune, a lot. And that’s ok. But i think, we all think, that SJ is a tad more connected to whats happening. So if he is saying that Halladay might end up with the yankees, and trading him to the division is very possible, i would listen to what he is saying and I would speculate that doc might be a yankee sooner than later.
People don’t change their opinions that quick, that drastic without some inside knowledge..
think of it this way amphetamines are considered cheating today, correct?
So if the point of this argument (which for my sake it is) is to argue whether or not players caught using PEDs today should still be considered for the hall of fame, then I would say absolutely yes…because I would be willing to bet you that a significant portion of former players currently in the HOF used amphetamines and would be in fact considered cheaters by today’s standards.
Amphetamines were taken for the exact same reasons steriods are, and should be considered cheating just as much
“Can you expand on this? They certainly aren’t the same thing but they are both drugs that improve performance. They are now banned for a reason..
Things like HGH haven’t been proven to help a player at all. You could argue that steroids HAVE helped players because the amount of home runs we saw were off the charts ridiculous. However, there isn’t any concrete evidence or study done to prove it either way.”
Patrick,
My theory is steroids make you bigger, stronger, and faster.
Amphetamines make you more alert, the effects you get from taking amphetamines is different than you get from taking steroids.
I never said both weren’t performance enhancers but steroids help you a lot more than amphetamines IMO.
Carl
July 8th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Hockey post is not a new post
===========
No kidding.
i think they would part with ajax but not montero.
“Brandon,
I don’t see the Yankees giving up Jackson, Hughes or Joba + Romine, Banuelos, McAllister. That’s too much because the Jays are getting a ML pitcher in either Hughes or Joba. If the Yankees include Jackson then Banuelos and McAllister will be off the table with a lesser prospect included.”
Well then they won’t get him. Srsly if I’m Toronto I look at Milwaukee and Philly before anyone in my division.
Banuelos is prbly a top 10 player in our system but isn’t viewed that way to other teams.
First off JP is going to try to pawn Wells in this deal. The Yankees likely give up Jackson if the deal includes Rios.
Toronto will first attempt to get Joba + Hughes, when they get turned down, they’ll ask for one of those 2 and Jesus or Austin, likely get an ok w/ Jackson. The other 3 would be B type prospects, starting w/ Banuelos in A ball and Z-Mac in AA, a throw in would be Dunn or De La Rosa…JP himself said it’s going to be painful for the other organization, that’s what your dealing with.
Why didn’t they pull the trigger for Santana? Two simple reasons:
1. They HAD the best offer on the table and Smith turned it down. You can’t force a guy to make a deal with you.
2. Situations change. They have two young guns: Hughes and Chamberlain. If you trade one, you still have the other.
Plus, they have CC now. Those changes make a deal now more palatable from a Yankee perspective.
Just because something didn’t happen two years ago doesn’t mean it can’t happen now.
The market and situations change.
“Joba Chamberlain is not an untouchable when Roy Halladay is in play.
He is for lesser guys. Not for Roy Halladay. ”
I simply disagree. Young, quality starting pitching is the most valuable commodity in baseball.
ray,
Yeah amphetamines and steroids aren’t the same in the sense that they have vastly different effects. However, isn’t that a little subjective to decide that amphetamines help LESS than steroids?
Even if that were true, they are both performance enhancing drugs. If guys like McGwire are condemned for taking steroids when he was never caught and when there was no testing for it shouldn’t guys like Mays, Aaron, Mantle and countless others be condemned for taking amphetamines?
Neither group necessarily broke the rules or were caught breaking the rules but both groups took drugs to improve their performance.
talk about sending a message…hockey post was up almost 20 min ago and still no comments…
Amphetamines are more like Jolt, Red Bull, or NoDoz than PEDs, I really don’t see why they were banned. Now players are just chewing on coffee beans.
Then again, I don’t think PEDs do much to make you a better baseball player other than recovering faster from vigorous workouts or workloads.
“Joba Chamberlain is not an untouchable when Roy Halladay is in play.”
Who said he was ?
“He is for lesser guys. Not for Roy Halladay.”
We know this.
“Brandon,
Its been shown time and time again that inter-division trades happen if the teams match up. that won’t stand in the way of a deal.”
Not everyone are the Pittsburgh Pirates-Braves and Toronto fans will call for JP’s firing immediately after this.
if you agree to take vernon wells in any trade then you don’t have to include joba or hughes…thats 100 million dollars that the blue jays would not have to pay anymore – i think they’d be Ok with taking a chien ming wang in lieu of joba if they aren’t on the hook for 100 mil..
no team will part with 3 or 4 super prospects for halladay and then have to sign him to a 100 million dollar contract extension (and i’m guessing the yankees will have to trade 4 or 5 players since they are in the same division) – Ricciardi may not have a choice but trade him to the yankees…or he could hold on to him and get the 32nd and 35th round draft pick in 2011 if the yankees sign him – yeah that’ll be better than romine, wang, mccalister, melancon and whomever the 5th player is…
Guy Incognito blew it and posted…
“However, isn’t that a little subjective to decide that amphetamines help LESS than steroids?”
I would agree that it is, especially considering that it is likely that the total number of players that have benefited from using amphetamines is larger than those that gained benefit from steriods…I don’t have facts to back this, but based on general baseball knowledge and the lenght of time that amphetamines have been in the game it would seem logical to me.
Young, quality starting pitching is valuable. When you have two of them, and can turn one into Roy Halladay (if possible) you do it because it upgrades your team for the next 3-4 years.
“Guy Incognito blew it and posted…”
I figured there would be at least one Canadian guy kicking around in there…
I’ll tell you what trade talk/speculation does for me. It begins to condition me for the loss of a player or players I’d prefer the Yankees didn’t trade.
What at first sounds unthinkable becomes less so the more exposure I have to the thought.
My initial reaction, and still my primary feeling, is that the Yankees don’t “need” Halladay, and that he is 32 years old.
But the more I read, other thoughts start slipping in. He is a durable pitcher who does not need to throw a lot of pitches to win a game, even a complete game. He is elite. He will probably be elite for at least another 3 years, and then still very good after that.
Much as I root for Joba and Hughes, their value is still in their potential.
You really do NOT want Halladay on the Red Sox, if it can be avoided, although I really hate that this is a factor in who the Yankees trade for/obtain as free agents. However, of course elite players like Halladay and Teixeira are going to be sought after by both the Yankees and the Red Sox.
You can’t guarantee a WS, no matter what, but if 3 out of your 5 starters are Halladay, CC and AJ – three of the best pitchers in the AL, your chances are very good of at least getting there.
So, bottom line, for me, if a deal happens, I will by then be conditioned to acceptance. Even if I don’t really think the deal is a necessary one to begin with. And at the end of the day, you gotta root for the laundry, because the hangers change from time to time, but they hang in the same closet.
Brandon,
David Cone and Roger Clemens were traded within the division to the Yankees.
JP is going to make the best deal he can for him.
If that’s with the Yankees, Red Sox or Orioles, so be it.
Brandon,
How do you know how Toronto views Banuelos?
SJ, do you think the Yankees would be willing to take on Wells’ contract to get Halladay?
“if you agree to take vernon wells in any trade then you don’t have to include joba or hughes…thats 100 million dollars that the blue jays would not have to pay anymore – i think they’d be Ok with taking a chien ming wang in lieu of joba if they aren’t on the hook for 100 mil..”
Who saids ? They really don’t care what you think. They’ll most likely try to dump Wells and ask for the prospects, Yankees say no fine they deal w/ Philly.
Dominic Brown, Michael Taylor, Antonio Bastardo, Lou Marson, Carlos Carrasco for Doc…sold.
“no team will part with 3 or 4 super prospects for halladay and then have to sign ”
Milwaukee would, Philly would.
Brandon,
Also, the Yankees aren’t taking on the salaris of Wells or Rios too.
I’m not so sure those Phillie prospects are super prospects this year. I do know that the Yankee prospects you mentioned are having great years.
personally I think if we have to take Wells to get Halladay and give up Hughes or Joba plus 2-3 other close to ML ready prospects I would prefer to stay away…that would look more like the old Yankees where getting older and slower and more expensive was the normal expectation…
The Halladay won’t be traded because nobody is taking that Wells contract.
“Brandon,
David Cone and Roger Clemens were traded within the division to the Yankees.
JP is going to make the best deal he can for him.”
Right and the David Wells deal is why they will go for the bank on Doc. SJ you know the minute he’s dealt Toronto fans will be all over JP, he isn’t going for cheap to a team in thier own division, they aren’t looking to revisit Roger Clemens for David Wells here and they already lost AJ to us.
“If that’s with the Yankees, Red Sox or Orioles, so be it.”
I bet you he’s traded to the NL.
we aint taking Wells and his 100 million dollar contract. We would then have to give Halladay a Mussina/AJ contract.
Milwaukee won’t nor will Philly.
Nobody is taking on Vernon Wells’ contract. Nobody.
Teams aren’t flush with cash in this economy.
Plus, it makes little sense for JP to attach Doc with Wells because he ends up getting less (in terms of talent) in return if teams have to take on the Wells contract.
One has nothing to do with the other.
A real baseball post is now up.
I sure hope they don’t take on Wells. It goes against everything they’ve been trying to do as far as contracts go and as far as trying to get more flexible, more athletic. Wells was a good player. Not anymore.
The Wells contract calls for at least 107M for just the 2010-2014 seasons.
New post and it has a Holladay picture. It must be good.
Based on the penalties MLB dishes out for amphetamine users verses what they dish out for steroid users, they don’t even look at it the same.
“I’m not so sure those Phillie prospects are super prospects this year. I do know that the Yankee prospects you mentioned are having great years.”
Michael Taylor would be the best position prospect between the yankees or phillies. Banuelos again he’s 18 and other organizations don’t look high at A ball players unless they are top ceiling players. Banuelos to TOR most likely they view him as a B player. Top A players are Jackson and Montero and Hughes or Joba. Even Melancon has dropped from his ranking.
Brandon – milwaukee had sabathia and wouldn’t pony up the money to keep him – so i would think it would be kind of stupid to trade 4 more players (if they even have them) to have to sign halladay to another 100 million dollar contract..
philly had the same opportunity to sign CC in the offseason and not have to give up any of the 5 players you mentioned and didn’t do it – so yes they may trade those players to get halladay this year but will then lose him next year when they won’t be able to pay halladay what he wants..
would you trade Dominic Brown, Michael Taylor, Antonio Bastardo, Lou Marson, Carlos Carrasco for the 35th and 32nd draft picks in 2011?
“Milwaukee won’t nor will Philly.
Nobody is taking on Vernon Wells’ contract. Nobody.
Teams aren’t flush with cash in this economy.
Plus, it makes little sense for JP to attach Doc with Wells because he ends up getting less (in terms of talent) in return if teams have to take on the Wells contract.
One has nothing to do with the other.”
He’s going to TRY to pawn it off on US not the other teams.
JP will likely try to deal Rios and Wells along w/ Doc to US ! If he deals w/ MIL or PHI he’s not going to include Wells or Rios, he’ll do the 5 top prospects type deal, 2 A prospects, 3 B prospects.
“would you trade Dominic Brown, Michael Taylor, Antonio Bastardo, Lou Marson, Carlos Carrasco for the 35th and 32nd draft picks in 2011?”
If your Philly ofcourse and you try to get the extension for Doc. Hamels Doc and Myers next season would be a hell of a big 3 for the next 4-5 yrs. in the NL.
Brandon,
Your offering opinions on these prospects which is fine because I’m doing the same, but that doesn’t mean your opinion is right about those prospects value.
Awh man.I’ve so enjoyed rubbing in the face of RS fans.That the two most expensively bought, World Series wins was bought by the RS.
So if the Yankees somehow aquire Halladay,it will be costly,and I lose the dig.
IF the Jays decide to trade Doc Halliday it’ll be a clear sign of re-tooling so why wouldn’t they try and link the Wells contract? It may not work, but getting out from under that deal would probably be more valuable than the prospects they won’t be getting in exchange.
But I sure wou’d take on that contract!
It does seem the Phillies have the best combination of need and prospects to get something done.
SJ — The Cone/Clemens history is irrelevant. Totally different circumstances, different GM, different ownersrhip.
Poor Cervelli! Despite the great job he has done both behind and at the plate, he will get sent down to the minors to make way for the geriatric end of the Posada/Molina era, then he will quickly get shoved aside as soon as the powers that be deem that the 19 year old Montero is ready to step up. Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place!
One can only hope for his sake that he gets traded to a team who will appreciate his excellent game calling and other defensive skills, his unexpectedly decent bat, and his overall positive energy and intuition for the game (bunting, base running, etc. etc.)