Angels DL two stars
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- July
- 10
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The Angels have placed both Torii Hunter and Vlad Guerrero on the disabled list.
Brandon Wood and Bobby Wilson were called up:
The details via the press release:
Guerrero, 34, suffered a strained muscle behind his left knee and a lower hamstring strain during the game against the Texas Rangers, July 7, on a defensive play in right field. He is currently hitting .290 (51/176) with eight doubles, one triple, four home runs and 21 RBI in 46 games. Guerrero previously missed 38 games this season while on the DL for a torn right pectoral muscle.
Hunter, 33, has an adductor strain on his right side and will now be unable to participate in next week’s All-Star Game (he was named for the third time in his career). He is currently hitting .290 (87/285) with 19 doubles, one triple, 17 home runs and 65 RBI in 77 games. Hunter leads the Angels in home runs and RBI. This marks Hunter’s first DL stint as a member of the Angels
Wood, 24, is batting .313 (85/272) with 44 runs scored, 19 doubles, three triples, 17 home runs and 52 RBI in 70 games for the Salt Lake Bees. He ranks third in the Pacific Coast League with a .592 slugging percentage. Wood, who will wear uniform number 3, made his major league debut April 26, 2008 vs. Tampa Bay (0/4).
Wilson, 26, is batting .261 (62/238) with 10 doubles, one triple, seven home runs and 27 RBI in 65 games at Salt Lake. He made his major league debut April 28, 2008 vs. Oakland (1/1). Wilson will wear uniform number 46.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
cha ching!
no excuses now Joba
git r’ done!!
““supposively they are touting this kid (Iglasias) as “The Wizard Part. 2?”
—————
we’ll see.
I think if the Red Sox are lucky, they’ll have
“Rey Ordonez Part 2?
Wow, that’s greaa… I mean, tough break.
I’ll go out on a limb and say the Yanks take 2 out of 3.
I think they may lose tonight unless Joba has done some soul searching.
Saunders is perty good.
What does everyone think about our mental state playing in Anaheim.
You think we’re over it yet, or are the angels still in our heads?
The guy is a great fielder, but cant hit. They’ve already had a great shortstop in Alberto Gonzalez who could only field and couldn’t hit. Why they never kept him or Cabrera boggles my mind
We sweep easy now.
no vlad, no hunter, no anderson…. We can beat them now, both teams are way different, shouldn’t be in our heads
Saunders has been awful his last few starts, and apparently gives up a ton of homeruns to righties.
Of course, that might mean he’s due for a good start, but then again, so is Joba.
“McAllister is having a great year, but he doesn’t project as a top starter.”
————-
eh, whatever… guys like Dan Haren probably didn’t project as top starters either.
*Excuse me*
“Zach is 6?6? 230lbs and only 22 with an ERA of 1.45 in AA ball. The kid is the real deal. Toronto wants good young and cheap & Yanks have it..”
Tom, LOL he’s not viewed that good by other organizations.
Philly is throwing Drabek and Taylor and Bastardo and Marson
SF is throwing names like Cain and Bumgardner
Texas is throwing Feliz and Andrus + Smoak
And you think McAllister, Jesus (who me and Rebecca would KO you before it happens) Ajax (BTW CF in the majors not a rich position nowadays, especially ones that project to Tori Hunter) Ajax and Jesus aren’t getting delt and really TOR will get a better deal from the NL.
What does everyone think about our mental state playing in Anaheim.
You think we’re over it yet, or are the angels still in our heads?”
—————-
I don’t really think they’re in the Yanks heads.
However, it will be interesting to see how well Figgins does. He gives the Yanks fits.
They also are often shut down by Lackey – but Lackey isn’t pitching as well as he usually does since coming back from injury.
Brandon,
if those teams formally offer those guys, then you are 100% correct.
If Texas gives Feliz or Smoak plus Andrus or Teagarden, I think it’s a done deal.
I think SF would be wise to keep Cain and Baumgarder.
The Angels are in the fans head, not the players heads.
Don’t confuse the two.
I always hate the first game after a team puts a star or two on the DL. The rest of the team all seem to pick it up and play above themselves for that game – and worse – the other team always seems to have some kind of let down thinking their task will be easier now. Hopefully Girardi will inform the team of their weird phenomena but I doubt he will. Either way it’s nice to see the new Yankee killer Hunter to be out for this series. He’s been absolutely killing them the last couple of years.
this is probably an easy one but…
who gets booed more?
a) A-Rod
b) Teixeira
I thought the first series put all that garbage to rest,
YANKS SWEEP Alone in 1st at Break!
“Either way it’s nice to see the new Yankee killer Hunter to be out for this series. He’s been absolutely killing them the last couple of years.”
———
I think Figgins and prob Kendrick belong in that group too.
Just going from memory – I haven’t seen the #s so I could be wrong.
Texas is not giving up Smoak, Feliz and Andrus for Halliday.
BD, I srsly believe it’s a matter of time before Doc lands in Philly, they can scout our system and w/e it postering he’s gonna land on an NL team. PHI, SF or MIL. I’m betting PHI or SF because they have all the pieces TOR wants, cheap high ceiling arms and high ceiling position prospects that are controlled for the next 5-6 yrs. that they are willing to deal. If Jesus Montero is in the deal Doc’s a Yankee today but we’d all cut Cashman’s throat if Jesus or Ajax were traded. I just can’t keep a straight face watching our A position players on another team out-performing our B or C position prospects.
“Texas is not giving up Smoak, Feliz and Andrus for Halliday.”
———
the rumor (and yes, it’s jsut a rumor/projection) was
Smoak OR Feliz
and Teagarden + maybe other lesser prospects
MLBTR.com
Austin Jackson is not viewed as a superstar player.
If you can get Halladay by offering Jackson, one of Joba or Phil, and another prospect not named Montero, you should help drive them to the airport.
However, that’s likely not going to be enough.
SI_JonHeyman#yankees are talking to the jays about halladay but even they dont believe theyll get him.
Then again, this is the same guy who has been weebling and wobbling about what’s going on with the Halladay bidding for a while now.
baseballfab July 10th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
We sweep easy now.
================================================
Well, I don’t know about that, but…
Much as it pains me (as my ECS knows) I’ve gotta say…
GO YANKS!!!
Tarnish those halos in the land of Disney
That’s just a reporter throwing out a hypothetical.
Just win the series
“What do you make of the fact that the Yankee bullpen has the lowest WHIP (1.23) in the AL?
Jerry Crasnick
(12:13 PM)
Scott, I make of it that the Yankees have started to learn their lesson — that you can build a bullpen with young, cheap arms rather than going out and overspending for a Steve Karsay or a LaTroy Hawkins in free agency. Of course, it always helps to have Mariano Rivera at the back end. And I’m still not sold that Aceves, Bruney and those guys are going to carry you all the way through October.”
Please enough about the Texas trade, they have been borrowing money from MLB to make it through the season and they are going to give away the farm for Haliday. Just garbage to get people talking about the trading deadline, think about it prior to Toronto sort of annoucning they would listen to offers it’s been a very quiet trade deadline. just hype
Heyman also was the guy who reported that the Yankees were heavily in on Tex when no one on this blog chose to believe him.
“Austin Jackson is not viewed as a superstar player.”
The only thing he’s missing is HRs everything else is there. No offense but who’s the CF for this team can you actually look at Melky or Gardner in CF and the watch Jackson in Toronto outplay them almost ala Adam Jones if that power comes which looks like it is.
Joba is not pitching in Yankee Stadium, he’ll have a solid outing
Mr. Crasnick, What do the Yankees have to do to beat the Red Sox and get to the playoffs?
Jerry Crasnick
(12:48 PM)
Taylor, They don’t have to beat the Red Sox to get to the playoffs. All they have to do is beat either the Sox or the Rays. What they need most is continued consistent starting pitching. With all the talk about A-Rod, Joba, Wang, etc., in NY, Sabathia and Burnett, the big free agent acquisitions, have quietly had nice first halves. That’s a great sign for the Yankees.
“SI_JonHeyman#yankees are talking to the jays about halladay but even they dont believe theyll get him.”
Eh, its not a neccessary move but any team who in a short series can throw out Halladay, CC and Burnett in a row has to be WS favorites.
“Austin Jackson is not viewed as a superstar player.”
Exactly. You can’t let Jackson be the difference between getting Halladay and not getting him. Only guy who can be that difference IMO is Montero.
“The only thing he’s missing is HRs everything else is there. No offense but who’s the CF for this team can you actually look at Melky or Gardner in CF and the watch Jackson in Toronto outplay them almost ala Adam Jones if that power comes which looks like it is.”
I’m really digging the Adam Jones comparison Brandon, I just want to see more of that power, the speed and skills are already there.
Scott, I make of it that the Yankees have started to learn their lesson — that you can build a bullpen with young, cheap arms rather than going out and overspending for a Steve Karsay or a LaTroy Hawkins in free agency. Of course, it always helps to have Mariano Rivera at the back end. And I’m still not sold that Aceves, Bruney and those guys are going to carry you all the way through October.”
Or How about: They really have been doing a great job – Aceves Coke Robertson …. putting Hughes in was really smart. In addition Bruney and Marte have yet to be factors and they have high hopes for Melancon. All with Mo anchoring, they look really good now but it is also a long season.
SJ44 July 10th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
The Angels are in the fans head, not the players heads.
Don’t confuse the two.
————–
Exactly. Just like the Red Sox are in the Yankee fans’ heads. Not in the players’ heads.
re-posts:
“Joba is not worried. At the end of the day, the sun still comes up.”
DT, kudos for that. I laughed. I think it went a little under the radar.
“SF is throwing names like Cain and Bumgardner ”
The Giants themselves are throwing these names, or people speculating about them are throwing these names?
HELL YEA!
Honestly could there BE a better update?
I would rather trade Montero then trade Chamberlain or Hughes. You could always make a run at Joe Mauer after next season.
Heyman knows what Boras knows.
If a Boras player isn’t involved in a trade or a signing, he knows what the rest of the reporters know.
“I think Figgins and prob Kendrick belong in that group too.
Just going from memory – I haven’t seen the #s so I could be wrong”
Kendrick is a career .457 hitter against the Yankees and even though he’s only hitting .228 this season, he still scares me.
Figgins is a career .320 hitter against the Yankees…
They are both dangerous against the Yankees
“Honestly could there BE a better update?”
How about:
Halladay to Yankees for Igawa, Duncan, and lesser prospects?
rconn23 July 10th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Heyman also was the guy who reported that the Yankees were heavily in on Tex when no one on this blog chose to believe him.
————
Heyman was also the guy who said two days ago that the Yanks were the favorites for Halladay.
Heyman is dead wrong far far far more often than he is right.
Brandon,
Jackson should be a fine player, but he was not as highly regarded as Adam Jones as a prospect.
Jackson could hit 20 home runs. He could also strike out 170 times a season. He’s hit a few dingers recently so maybe the power is coming.
But his walks are down from earlier in the season and he strikes out WAAY too much.
It’s all projection with Jackson. He’s certainly more talented than Gardner, but there is no guarantee he’ll be a better player.
It’s all projection with Jackson – “Maybe the power will come, maybe his plate discipline will improve” etc.
Halladay is the most proven of commodities, at worst one of the top three of four pitchers in baseball.
If Jackson is a central part of any deal to get Halladay, I don’t hesistate to pull the trigger. Not for a milisecond.
i love how fans are so ready and willing to call players they have never seen before average or not “superstars”…you know how many guys who were never seen as much have grown into being very good players?….lots…its not all about perception…
“I would rather trade Montero then trade Chamberlain or Hughes. You could always make a run at Joe Mauer after next season.”
Nuh uh.
“Heyman knows what Boras knows.”
He knows what Boras tells him. Heyman wasn’t first on Arod opting out. He broke Teixeira, but had no clue it was happening. Boras only tells Heyman that which he wants Heyman to shill.
If Molina is catching tonight I will be very interested in seeing the result. If it is a good one, I would hope that Girardi reflects a bit and maybe decides to see whether keeping Joba with someone other than Posada makes sense. If it is the difference between winning and losing games, it obviously wouldn’t be a bad idea. It could be that Posada and Joba just don’t work well together.
This isn’t a call to arms by people who feel that any post that is less than glowing and has Posada’s name in it needs to be challenged to the death just for the sake of it. I don’t know how the match-up will work out if Molina catches Joba. I do know that it hasn’t been great with Joba and Posada. If it turns out to be the “fault” of Joba but he does work better with Molina, then so be it. We need to win games above and beyond all else.
I don’t care whether Jackson becomes a superstar or not.
I want a good solid player that patrols the Yankee outfield for the next 5-7 years.
Anything more than that is gravy.
“I would rather trade Montero then trade Chamberlain or Hughes. You could always make a run at Joe Mauer after next season”
All things being even I’d much prefer having Mauer over Montero…………but all things aren’t even. Mauer would come with a $20M+ price tag per season. Six years of Montero might cost the Yankees $20M total.
As long as Doc goes to the NL (Phillies) the Yankes do not need to make a move.
“I would rather trade Montero then trade Chamberlain or Hughes. You could always make a run at Joe Mauer after next season.”
Montero has absurd power at the age of 19, has 13 homers already this year in about 250 AB’s. He also hits for average which is unheard of, if anything you trade AJax.
Trisha – when you look at it, Joba has not worked well with anyone cept with Jorge in Cleveland.
Brandon loves his prospects rconn! Lol
Seriously though, if the Yankees could ever get Doc for Joba, Melancon and Jackson, Brian Cashman would make that deal so fast, you guys heads would spin.
That deal though is a little light for Doc.
As fat as Heyman, he’s written 5 different stories on Halladay.
He, like the rest of us, have no idea what’s going on.
He’s a Scott Boras puppet. If a guy isn’t a Boras client, he has no inside info.
Can we drop this catching thing? Please? it’s old.
Montero’s upside is insane. Mauer’s crazy good, but he also missed the first month with, what was it, a back injury?
I wouldn’t say no to Mauer, but if Montero produces like he projects, Montero >> Mauer.
trisha,
In this case, I don’t think it’s the catcher’s fault.
I do think that Joba is being stubborn, and that might not work with the most stubborn guy on the team, Jorge.
But it could be a case of Joba being in his own world right now. He can’t be helped until he accepts responsiblity as well as the help that people are trying to offer him.
Chad Curtis is coming to Old Timer’s day…. so is Pat Kelly, lol. Aww, I loved Pat Kelly. Mike Easler – Hit Man! I loved the Hit Man……. Sid and Evan reading the list now on WFAN.
So is Aaron Small, lol
It’s all projection with Jackson. He’s certainly more talented than Gardner, but there is no guarantee he’ll be a better player.
=====
Having seen both players at the minor league level, I can guarantee that Jackson will be the better player. This isn’t exactly going out on a limb – he is better in every respect, except he’s not nearly as fast.
But he’s fast – and he gets much better reads, so the speed advantage defensively on Gardner’s side isn’t really there.
Forget Gardner for the moment – AJax is very impressive. I am actually off to see Scranton tonight. Every time I see the kid I get excited about him.
He will be a very good player for the Yankees. Is greatness within his grasp? Maybe. Very good, he’s already got covered. The Ks don’t concern me – this is a kid who has done a complete 360 in terms of his hitting approach.
He is not only supremely athletic, he’s very coachable. That’s a winning combination.
Joe and Evan
Sometimes you can say with enough certainty that a guy will hit free agency and you can plan on at least making a run for him. Such as it was with CC.
From everything I’ve read, Mauer ever hitting free agency is much less certain. I don’t think Mr. Cashman would make any move today because Mauer MIGHT be hit FA in the future.
Joba’s two best starts of the year came with Posada behind the plate. With Joba, it’s not the catchers. It’s Joba.
Cervelli’s penatrating eyes couldn’t even get him to work faster, throw strikes, and stop shaking off the catchers all night.
If he does well, it will be because ge makes adjustments. It won’t have anything to do with who is catching him.
As I believe SJ44 said earlier:
Joba threw his best game of the year against the Indians with Posada behind the plate. He threw one his worst with Cervelli.
He’s argued with Molina in the past over pitch selection.
It.is.not.the.catcher.
Betsy, cool Old Timers Day update. Any word yet on whether Angel Berroa has confirmed?
“I don’t care whether Jackson becomes a superstar or not.”
———
In Yankee fan-land, it’s superstar or bust.
Does it make me a bad person if I looked at the title of this blog post and smiled and said to myself “sucks for them”?????
“Trisha – when you look at it, Joba has not worked well with anyone cept with Jorge in Cleveland.”
Bronx, that may well be the case. I didn’t go back over all of his games. At this point with Joba I’m looking for creative solutions and if Molina can help the situation, then why not!
Rebecca, do what I do. If I find a topic old or uninteresting, I ignore it. I don’t continue to read the posts dealing with the subject matter. If I see posts dealing with things I find old or uninteresting, I breeze right by them as soon as I see the topic.
“Can we drop this catching thing? Please? it’s old.”
———-
I second that nomination.
Time for a vote
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4317726
Sorry, if this has been posted. 8 of Neyer’s 33 all-time AL all-stars have been Yankees.
Click to see if A-rod made the list…
“He’s argued with Molina in the past over pitch selection.”
Doubtful.
“It.is.not.the.catcher.”
We’ll.see.
“Does it make me a bad person if I looked at the title of this blog post and smiled and said to myself “sucks for them”?????”
I think it probably makes you a sane person!
In the words of Jerry Seinfeld: That’s a shame. No one took pity on us 6 weeks ago.
Erica – No, their hurt, not dead. Yankees have had plenty of injuries.
“No one took pity on us 6 weeks ago.”
——–
exactly.
nobody is pitying the Sox either when they miss out on every team’s top pitcher.
Joba works well with Molina I hope Molina is catching tonight. Hughes shook off Posada a couple of times yesterday should we make a big deal out of that.
I am saddened that Vlad keeps getting injured.
Holy Jesus Montero, it is NOT the catcher.
Others above were referencing Yankee-killers on the Angels but none of those guys even remotely compare to what Albert Pujols has done against his arch-rival Cubbies
Pujols has hit an insanely ridiculous 39 home runs with 104 RBI in his career against them in 138 games.
Perhaps the most absurd part is that Pujols is still only 29 years old so he’s probably got a legitimate shot to hit 75 homers against one team.
And you thought Manny owned the Yanks.
“I second that nomination.
Time for a vote”
Hmmm. Boston Dave if memory serves me you have been very upset about Posada being questioned from jump street. Odd that you would want the topic ended!
Trading Austin Jackson now is tantamount to trading Bernie Williams in 1990 in my view. This kid doesn’t have Montero-like numbers but he does EVERYTHING well. Those are the kind of players that win championships.
I’m sorry already saying that Montero will be better than Mauer is absurd. Mauer is hitting .400 in the bigs! Montero we can only hope will be half the ballplayer Mauer is.
Giuseppe Franco
July 10th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
I don’t care whether Jackson becomes a superstar or not.
I want a good solid player that patrols the Yankee outfield for the next 5-7 years.
Anything more than that is gravy.
You want fries with that? Super size for an extra $1?
“Holy Jesus Montero, it is NOT the catcher.”
Holy Moses I hardly consider you an expert! And since a more studied than you (not on this blog of course) have questioned the catcher, I would say it is fair game.
“Hmmm. Boston Dave if memory serves me you have been very upset about Posada being questioned from jump street. Odd that you would want the topic ended!”
——–
Im just kidding!
I don’t agree that the catcher is the problem but there are enough people still discussing it so clearly there are people interested in it.
No problem with me
Al:
Mauer is unreal. But he’ll cost a helluva lot more than Montero, and that’s if Minnesota doesn’t resign him, and he’s their Derek JEter.
““Joba is not worried. At the end of the day, the sun still comes up.”
DT, kudos for that. I laughed. I think it went a little under the radar.”
thanks Nick. That means a lot – like getting the thumbs up and wink from Carson.
Dave and Rebecca, here’s a clue. Do what everyone who doesn’t care about the topic is doing. Ignore it.
“Others above were referencing Yankee-killers on the Angels but none of those guys even remotely compare to what Albert Pujols has done against his arch-rival Cubbies”
Haven’t you seen the ESPN commercial? That’s because Pujols isn’t human! He’s a cyborg sent to destroy everything in his path. He’s the baseball terminator.
Yeah, The Angels have been in my head and have been a constant pain in my backside since 2002…..Plus I live out here and listening to this crap ever since has grown old….A sweep would be a start….However 2 of 3 works,,,,
Al from BK
July 10th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
“I would rather trade Montero then trade Chamberlain or Hughes. You could always make a run at Joe Mauer after next season.”
Montero has absurd power at the age of 19, has 13 homers already this year in about 250 AB’s. He also hits for average which is unheard of, if anything you trade AJax.
———————————————–
I never really viewed Austin Jackson as a great prospect. I always thought he is overhyped. If Jackson could get you a pitcher like Halladay or something the yankee need at the deadline to put them over the top I would trade him.
Wow…
“Dave and Rebecca, here’s a clue.”
——-
I dont need a clue. I was kidding. I said I have no problem with people discussing it. There are clearly plenty of people who are still interested in the topic and that’s fine.
“I don’t agree that the catcher is the problem but there are enough people still discussing it so clearly there are people interested in it.”
Thanks for that acknowledgment. I should have known you were joking.
bod,
I’ve seen Jackson play in person as well – several times. I like him.
But you, or I can’t guarantee anything. Especially that Jackson will be an effective major leaguer.
You trade him for Halladay with other pieces not named Montero in an instant for Halladay. You just do.
Gardner? Maybe optimally he’s just a good fourth outfielder. But he’s the best centerfielder on the team right now.
And if you read the fangraphs piece, he’s been better defensively than anyone could have hoped for.
And he’s adjusted offensively just like he has at every level.
Rebecca–You do incredibly awesome work. But I am going to have to strongly disagree with you re: Montero v. Mauer.
Simply put, at this moment, Joe Mauer is only 26 years old as is already one of the best hitting catchers of all time. ALL READY. He has two batting titles. Two. By 26. As a catcher. The mind boggles. Granted, if he blows out his knee tomorrow, he can’t go to the hall of fame. BUT he has already accomplished more by 26 than the vast majority of catchers in the history of the game.
Moreover, he is finally showing the kind of power that everyone projected for him. If he continues to hit with this kind of power, he will go from being one of the best hitting catchers of all-time to one of the best hitters at any position.
Long story short, Mauer has already proven to be incredibly ridiculous at the Major League level and he is getting better. Even if Montero hits his ceiling, I doubt it can will be better than Mauer’s ceiling. (Again, Mauer’s 26 and getting better). Plus, the odds of Mauer hitting his ceiling are orders of magnitude higher than Montero.
Look I love Montero. Wouldn’t include him in a Halladay package type love.
But Joe Mauer is an absolutely special player even among the group of special players.
“““Joba is not worried. At the end of the day, the sun still comes up.”
DT, kudos for that. I laughed. I think it went a little under the radar.””
No one did it better than Ian Kennedy, NO ONE.
To say I hope Molina catches Joba tonight- is NOT saying the catchers are the problem. It is more of hoping Molina maybe part of a solution.
Of course it all starts with Joba
Man, I was wrong earlier this spring. WHen discussing the the best divisions in baseball I stated that the AL East is the best. Which it is. However, I posted that I did not think the NL East was too far behind. I know the Mets have been plagues with injuries but that division is weak IMO. Here are the run differentials:
Philly +43
FL -8
Atl -9
NYM -36
Wash -113
One team in the positive headed into the last weekend before the break.
It really is the AL East and a wide margin betweeen everyone else IMO.
Happy Friday.
-dennis
Observer: Yeah, Mauer is that good.
Like I said, for me the difference is that if Mauer hits Free Agency you’re looking at double the Teixeira money to get him, whereas Montero’s cost controlled for a while.
All things equal, if the Yankees can afford to sign Mauer, they should, but if Minnesota lets Mauer go, they should probably be contracted.
Like I said, Mauer’s their Derek Jeter. And he’s actually from Minnesota.
I truly, truly, truly do not see Minnesota EVER letting Mauer go. I think they will do whatever it takes to keep him. He is a special case, because he is the definition of the home town boy made good. He is good business. He is worth them not following their precedent of letting their stars go for free agency. He is the exception to their rule.
The only thing that would change that equation is if Joe Mauer himself does not want to stay no matter what the Twins offer, simply because he wants to broaden his horizons. The New York Yankees, nor any other team, IMO, can make plans now based on whether or not Joe Mauer hits free agency. In fact, if I were a GM, I would go with the assumption that he will not, and if he does, great.
At the very least… if you’re going to make a point about molina v. jorgie with Joba, pay attention to the games instead of just stirring up ignorance. It’s so old. You have turned into a big yawn. Disappointing because you used to be fun, Trisha.
Thoughts to ponder on a Friday afternoon –
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?
If Joba pitches without a catcher present does he still shake them off?
“To say I hope Molina catches Joba tonight- is NOT saying the catchers are the problem. It is more of hoping Molina maybe part of a solution.
Of course it all starts with Joba”
Tarheel, thanks! And that is exactly what I am saying and I know I said that in my post.
I am looking for answers to the Joba problem. If Molina can help, why not. And yes, it does all start with Joba.
The Ghost
July 10th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Trading Austin Jackson now is tantamount to trading Bernie Williams in 1990 in my view. This kid doesn’t have Montero-like numbers but he does EVERYTHING well. Those are the kind of players that win championships.
===
Yup.
A “creative solution” to the problem would be for Joba to a)be in better shape b) stop throwing 100 pitches in five innings and c)stop throwing 60 percent of those pitches as sliders in the dirt after he’s shook off the catcher three times.
Tarheelyank
July 10th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
To say I hope Molina catches Joba tonight- is NOT saying the catchers are the problem. It is more of hoping Molina maybe part of a solution.
Of course it all starts with Joba
——————————————–
Yeah Molina is very level headed and will handle Joba well. Molina would be a good coach. Posada is too stubborn him and Joba’s personalities are not a good mix when things are going wrong.
“If Joba pitches without a catcher present does he still shake them off?”
Yes, if only by force of habit:)
“I truly, truly, truly do not see Minnesota EVER letting Mauer go. I think they will do whatever it takes to keep him.”
——
as much as I’d like to see Mauer in pinstripes, I actually hope you’re right.
I’m no Minny fan, but they deserve to keep the guy. I hope the Twins step it up and sign him.
Erica
Irish
thanks for replies in last thread
No way the Twins let mauer go especially since they’ll be playing in a new park.
Hey, did someone say that Joba went to sit with molina on the bench during his last start?
Personally, I think some of you guys value prospects a little too much.
Now, I’m all for developing out players…but please do not b***h and moan if they don’t pan out and great players like Halladay move onto to bigger and better things.
Just saying’
“pay attention to the games instead of just stirring up ignorance”
I actually do pay attention to the games. Molina hasn’t been around in a while so I would have to go back and look at all of his outings to make an unequivocal statement. Do you know how Molina did with Joba?
If Molina comes back and catches Joba and does ANYTHING that makes a difference in the outcome, then it is a good thing. That is what I said. Reread my post and you will see that.
“I am looking for answers to the Joba problem”
Biggest problem is Joba himself. Baseball IQ-wise, he’s light years behind Posada and his coaches, but he seems to resist any sort of coaching/instruction.
Don’t think Joba, it can only hurt the team.
“Trading Austin Jackson now is tantamount to trading Bernie Williams in 1990 in my view. This kid doesn’t have Montero-like numbers but he does EVERYTHING well. Those are the kind of players that win championships.”
———-
I hope AJax is the next Bernie…
but what % of prospects reach that level?
what % of an organizations top 10 prospects during any given year become all-star caliber players?
any thoughts?
rconn23
July 10th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
bod,
I’ve seen Jackson play in person as well – several times. I like him.
But you, or I can’t guarantee anything. Especially that Jackson will be an effective major leaguer.
You trade him for Halladay with other pieces not named Montero in an instant for Halladay. You just do.
Gardner? Maybe optimally he’s just a good fourth outfielder. But he’s the best centerfielder on the team right now.
And if you read the fangraphs piece, he’s been better defensively than anyone could have hoped for.
And he’s adjusted offensively just like he has at every level.
====
Not trading Ajax for Halladay. I’ve already discoursed enough on this site and others about the symbiotic relationship between up-the-middle defense and pitching, so I’m not going there.
And we don’t even have a common working definition of what a valuable CF is, because in no way do I agree that Gardner is a better player than Cabrera.
AJax is a considerable upgrade over both of them. Considerable.
I agree with the guy who made the WIlliams comparison.
Uh-uh, not doing it.
“Yeah Molina is very level headed and will handle Joba well. Molina would be a good coach. Posada is too stubborn him and Joba’s personalities are not a good mix when things are going wrong.”
Thank you.
Oh great, I’ll probably get blamed for that too.
Montero doesn’t have to produce what Mauer has produced the last couple of years to be more valuable to the team dollar for dollar.
The Red Sox balked at trading Lester when Santana was one the table. Do you think the Red Sox are happy with the decision to not pull the trigger on that deal?
I would say so.
Montero is 19 years old and has a chance to be Mike Piazza-esque. He’s cost-controlled for quite a few years.
Mauer is going to remain a Twin anyways so it’s all a moot point.
“but he seems to resist any sort of coaching/instruction.”
Steve along with a few others I am thinking that Molina’s temperament might help. I’m certainly hoping that’s the case.
trisha,
I did say that Joba’s troubles are not on the catcher, but I agree that he might feel more comfortable with Jose.
Any team that trades for Halladay is going to overpay.
Like I said, Mauer’s their Derek Jeter. And he’s actually from Minnesota.
***
Not to be all technical, but Jeter was born in Jersey so he could be considered a local boy
Minny needs to retain Mauer if they have any prayer of getting bodies to fill seats in that new Satdium of theirs without a roof
“Al:
Mauer is unreal. But he’ll cost a helluva lot more than Montero, and that’s if Minnesota doesn’t resign him, and he’s their Derek JEter.”
Yes he is, thats why they should make it right and pay him when the time comes.
I do agree that the fact Montero will cost a whole heck of a lot less than Mauer is an important consideration.
But if Mauer is a free agent, the Yanks have the money, and Billionaire Pohlad is dumb enough to let Mauer go, we should seriously consider signing Mauer. He will be 28 years old in the 2011 season. It would be a huge cash outlay, of course. But getting a premium premium hitter at a premium premium position might be worth it.
It depends on Montero’s development. If its clear he will be a premium major league hitter in 2011 and he will be able to stick at catcher, then maybe you hold of signing Mauer. BUT, if Mauer is available, Montero has proven he will hit at the major league level but will be a huge liability behind the plate, sign Mauer and find another position for Montero.
Sorry, I am having a horribly busy day for a summertime Friday. Been trying so hard to jump into these discussions but my stupid job is getting in the way
I now read that Halladay says he won’t require a renegotiation of his contract if he is traded. If that is the case, I believe the Yankees certainly can afford him without reducing theit overall payroll flexibility too much.
However, if he does not require a renegotiation of his contract he will be enormously attractive (relative to his attractiveness with a renegotiated contract) and the team getting him will have to pay a huge price in prospects.
I can’t see the Yanks winning that prospect bidding contest, and I would not want the Yanks to win it.
Billionaire Pohlad has gone to the great big Billionaire Club in the sky, FYI.
It still remains to be seen whether Gardner is an everyday player. But I do know Melky is not an everyday player.
Hopefully Gardner continues to improve and forces his way into the lineup everyday.
Girardi may adopt him if that happens.
“Any team that trades for Halladay is going to overpay.”
It’s not cheap to get a Doc to make house calls these days…
Austin Jackson doesn’t have to be the next Bernie Williams. Bernie was a bonafide superstar-gold glove defense and 7 years of .900 ops from centerfield. He was the pater familias of those dynasty teams.
A-Jax will be a very good player in his own right. Lets not make the kid chase some weird echos from bygone days…
Isn’t the contract negotiation one of the reasons a team would want to sign him NOW?? I can’t imagine the Yankees giving up star prospects/future players for a season and a half long rental. I thought half the point of making the Halladay trade now would keep him from FA after next year
Rod Barajas calls a good game.
Erica I consider Jeter a local boy he was born in the same Hosp. as my Neices and nephews
Observer: Agreed.
And we also have to consider where Romine, Sanchez et al are in 2011.
We shall see!
So, here’s the thing. Eventually Joba will have to be able to work with whatever catcher is there. Chances are pretty good Molina won’t be back next season. At the end of the day, the sun may come up, but our problem child is going to have to get past himself.
Posada needs a rest a couple times a week anyway, so if Joba and Molina “click” then it does no harm in the short term to keep the matchup. But one start will not determine the “click” factor – it will have to prove to be a repeatable “click.”
Long-term, there’s going to have to be some personal growth by Joba, he’s got to get over the hump so that his skills are catcher-blind.
“I did say that Joba’s troubles are not on the catcher, but I agree that he might feel more comfortable with Jose.”
Mel, I could absolutely see that being the case in its entirety. I don’t think Joba is easy to deal with at all. But Molina just seems to have a more soothing personality.
Bod,
Jackson is not as highly regarded as a prospect as you’re making him out to be. He’s just not. Is there always the chance he makes “THE LEAP” and becomes a superstar? Sure.
As a fan, I hope that’s the case. But his ceiling right now is that he becomes an above-average every day regular. And that’s GREAT if that’s the case.
But if you don’t think Cashman would trade Jackson as part of a package for Halladay, you’re kidding yourself.
As for Gardner vs. Cabrera. Well, Melky right now, is doing what Melky always does, falling off a cliff offensively, which he’s been doing since May.
You see what you want to see. But there is no evidence, none, that he’s a better player right now than Gardner.
Also, I HOPE the Twins resign Mauer and Montero becomes MONSTERO.
Joe Mauer was a legend in Minnesota by the time he was a junior in high school. He is Minnesota sports right now. It would feel right if the Twins found a way to resign him.
Montero would be a fun home-grown success story. It would be awesome for we die hards who followed him for years before he became a superstar.
The nightmare scenario: Montero doesn’t become what we hope (or anywhere close). Billionaire Pohlad doesn’t pony up to benefit his fan base. Mauer signs with the Red Sox.
Marinate on that doomsday scenario for a second.
I think half the problems with Joba is just that he needs to grow up a little
“But one start will not determine the “click” factor – it will have to prove to be a repeatable “click.”
Yes.
“Long-term, there’s going to have to be some personal growth by Joba, he’s got to get over the hump so that his skills are catcher-blind.”
Absolutely yes again.
Observer: ….ow. I’mg oing to have nightmares now.
Glad to finally have some time to catch up on the blog during the work day to find more joba vs. posada talk. YAY!!
I know everyone wants to end this discussion, but I’m going to chime in anyway and declare I’m on “team Jorge”. I love Joba and think he has the potential to be great, but he is responsible for his own bad outings. I’m looking forward to more Posada bashing on this blog if Joba pitches well with Molina tonite….really I am.
Billionaire Pohlad is dead. He’s not making decisions anymore.
So no, he’s not going to sign Mauer to any extension from his casket.
I love, love, love Yankee prospects. But if you’re talking Halladay, Pujols, or Mauer you drive those prospects to the airport yourself.
Why are we discussing Mauer. Let Sox fans worry about getting Mauer (not happening). They need catching help, big time.
There is a precedent for Molina working well with a certain stubborn pitcher.
Okay, lets play the Red Sox “what if” game.
Varitek is only signed through the end of this year. I don’t know of any great catchers in their farm system. Who is catching for them until Mauer hits FA, or do they just keep signing Varitek to one year deals?
The Sox have also expressed after they were burned by Tex that they prefer obtaining players via trades rather than free agency. Tex really pissed them off
I thought Joba’s problems were due to New Yankee Stadium?
“I think half the problems with Joba is just that he needs to grow up a little”
Only half???
m -
That was funny!
Erica-
Halladay at the pro-rated portion of $7.5MM this year and approximately $15MM next year is affordable to many teams and could give the right team a real good shot at two consecutive World Series championships.
That’s worth a LOT to the right team.
I think it should be worth less to the Yanks because we already have a good shot at two consecutive World Series championships. If I were Cashman, I wouldn’t want to pawn the future just to improve an already good shot.
“The nightmare scenario: Montero doesn’t become what we hope (or anywhere close). Billionaire Pohlad doesn’t pony up to benefit his fan base. Mauer signs with the Red Sox.”
Or, this dream scenario: The Twins decide not to pursue a long term deal, the sox get in depth with Mauer while the Yanks say they just aren’t in that type of market. Then, after an 11th hour meeting with John Henry, Mauer sours and the Yanks do end up signing Mauer as he professes his undying love for the Yankees from the time he was 5 years old, Teix style.
At the same time, Montero does become everything he is expected to, and he and Mauer take turns DHing and catching for the next 10 years.
NYY626-
Joba vs. Posada conversation every 5 games is just about the only thing in this world you can count on other than death and taxes
Actually Jackson is very highly regarded. He is one of the youngest players in the International League and is hitting over 300 with extra base power and good speed and defense.
He’s better than Bernie was at this age… let’s see what he comes in time.
I think this is an important night for Joba… someone should count the times he shakes his catcher off and the result.
Doreen,
Problem is someone else will have to drive them. I can’t drive a bus.
WYH-
I am in agreeance with you. Without a contract extension, Halladay becomes a rental. And I don’t think the Yankees should sacrifice players with long futures for that
I wouldn’t say no to Mauer, but if Montero produces like he projects, Montero >> Mauer.
Thats some bold words Rebecca. I guess you could have said the same thing about Brien Taylor > David Cone at the time he was drafted.
Are we positive Molina is catching tonight, or are we guessing, anyway????
There’s another aspect to this that is difficult to translate on these boards.
I don’t expect anyone to just take it for granted that I have evaluating skills sound enough to be able to project a player’s future.
I can insist I am able to do this, but i don’t expect total strangers with whom I have no history to accept my word for it.
Likewise, I will not take anyone’s word for anything on here, with all due respect, because no one has built up enough credibility here to convince me that THEY can make such predictions – and that includes BASEBALL AMERICA and the other hot-shot outlets and pop-star talent evaluators.
I can only affirm what my eyeballs have also experienced and dissent with opinions at variance with that.
The crux of the Halladay thing is: we already HAVE a very good pitching staff.
I am not willing to give up either of our 23 year old pitchers – who have certainly made their case to ME that they are legit front-end of the rotation keepsakes – or trade my future CF, who has shown ME enough that I would not deal him (for a 32 year old starter) – to turn a strength into some absolute (talk about there being no guarantees…) that actually COMPROMISES that strength in the future.
You pro Halladay people see 3 years of guaranteed glory.
I see the tradeoff for that being the 10 years of glory I potentially sacrifice by giving up Hughes or Joba.
I want them BOTH in my rotation.
Doreen
July 10th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Are we positive Molina is catching tonight, or are we guessing, anyway????
***
Very educated guesses. The probably won’t be a lineup until around 7 tonight
I can’t see the Yankees with Mauer… they are already up to their armpits in catching prospects plus that’ll make Jorge an expensive DH in 2011. Also he’s had back issues for a young guy and I’m not sure that projects really well for being a stud into his mid thirties.
If Halladay doesn’t want and wont discuss an extension as part of agreeing to a trade than the offer has to be based on the assumption he’s gone after 2010.
“I wouldn’t say no to Mauer, but if Montero produces like he projects, Montero >> Mauer.”
If we’re to believe projections, Montero will be something other than a catcher.
Mauer is hands down the best catcher in MLB. Two batting titles, impeccable defense, and is now hitting for power. In 10 years they will be comparing him to the best ever and started already.
DB:
Heh, I just really love Montero. If you couldn’t tell
You pro Halladay people see 3 years of guaranteed glory.
I see the tradeoff for that being the 10 years of glory I potentially sacrifice by giving up Hughes or Joba.
I want them BOTH in my rotation.
***
Thank you. In my head I am already imagining all of those times we are facing Joba or Hughes in some other uniform and the ESPN guys delightfully rant on for 5 innings about how they were Yankees and we traded them away as they dominate us.
That scenario makes me sick
No franchise is ever going to field a team completely of 22-year olds straight from the farm system.
It’s never going to happen, especially not with a big market team like the Yankees.
It’s great when a team can produce home-grown talent, but few prospects are ever going to make a real impact at the big league level.
Those prospects are just as much trading pieces. You get a chance to land a beast like Halladay, given that the deal is right, you make the move.
Montero is like 1 for his last 22 in AA
He is overmatched and can’t hit breaking balls… best to sell him high. If TOR wants him for Halladay, do it in a heartbeat.
“You pro Halladay people see 3 years of guaranteed glory.
I see the tradeoff for that being the 10 years of glory I potentially sacrifice by giving up Hughes or Joba.”
Chances of the three years of glory are infinitely higher than the chances in the 10 year scenario.
If it’s only one of the two for Halladay, I do it twice.
I was gonna break down Jobber starts by catcher, but frankly it would have been too much of a p.i.t.a. and I just don’t have the time.
So here:
http://www.baseball-reference......;year=2009
Look at his game logs and look at who was catching him for what particular game (click on the date)
To me: He’s had good moments and bad moments. He’s pretty much been a roller coaster no matter who was catching him.
So me it’s not on the catcher, it’s on HIM.
Hopefully we see a better performance out of Jobber tonight
bodh, there are no gaurantees the Yanks will hold on to either of them for 10 years. They will be free agents as will Doc in 11. Even Pettitte walked for 3 years when the Yanks couldn’t make up there mind. If Hughes turns out to be a young Pettitte then I’d be ecstatic.
“Montero is like 1 for his last 22 in AA
He is overmatched and can’t hit breaking balls… best to sell him high. If TOR wants him for Halladay, do it in a heartbeat.”
Montero is also 19 freakin’ years old. Even A-Rod and Teix have slumps, too, y’know.
“Montero is like 1 for his last 22 in AA”
2 for his 24 to be precise and 4 of his 5 homers came in the Eastern League’s one homerun haven. Still, he’s 19 and managing pretty well in AA.
bodhisattva -
You’re not the only one who thinks the Yankees don’t need Halladay.
Sometimes you make a move like that and for whatever reason, it messes with everything, even though on paper it looks like a no brainer.
Juan, they said the same thing about Albert Pujols…not comparing, just saying.
2 for his LAST 24.
My post was eaten up, lemme try this again:
I was gonna break down Jobber starts by catcher, but frankly it would have been too much of a p.i.t.a. and I just don’t have the time.
So here:
http://tiny.cc/fdPVi
Look at his game logs and look at who was catching him for what particular game (click on the date)
To me: He’s had good moments and bad moments. He’s pretty much been a roller coaster no matter who was catching him.
So me it’s not on the catcher, it’s on HIM.
Hopefully we see a better performance out of Jobber tonight
“Montero is like 1 for his last 22 in AA
He is overmatched and can’t hit breaking balls… best to sell him high. If TOR wants him for Halladay, do it in a heartbeat.”
montero is arguable the most advanced hitter for his age in the minors….at 19 he is #3 on baseball america’s top 25 prospects….you should be ashamed of yourself
Great post at 3:52pm bodhisattva
Haha this thread has gone from people raving and saying Montero is better than Mauer (however semantically), to the polar opposite end of the spectrum that Montero is a bust and should be sold high.
Only at this place is that possible.
There’s realistically a very small chance, that Hughes or Joba ever becomes the pitcher that Roy Halladay is.
Halladay is a proven ace. A rotation of Halladay, Sabbathia and Burnett makes the Yankees the favorite in the American League.
No player like Halladay is a “luxury”. I’ve heard that term thrown around, especially in Boston and New York. It’s absurdly arrogant and presumptive.
Every team needs Roy Halladay unless you’re fielding a pitching staff with five Cy Young winners.
Last I checked, no one was.
It’s actually a very positive development that the original Truther argument — ‘the Yankees have a huge problem with Jorge Posada’ — has now been recast to a discussion about potential ways to help Joba pitch better. Progress is progress.
Brandon Wood, the guy called up to replace Hunter/Vlad on the roster is hitting .438 with 2 HRs, a double, and 3 RBIs in 4 games against us.
Haha yeah sell high on Montero. Lets see you say that in a year when he’s hitting bombs in the big leagues
Sometimes you make a move like that and for whatever reason, it messes with everything, even though on paper it looks like a no brainer.
***
Like trading Kyle Farnsworth for Pudge Rodriguez?
In my head I am already imagining all of those times we are facing Joba or Hughes in some other uniform and the ESPN guys delightfully rant on for 5 innings about how they were Yankees and we traded them away as they dominate us.
That scenario makes me sick
____________________________________________________________
I agree 100%. That would be nauseating.
Doreen, Erica’s right. Educated guessing and nothing more. I am hoping that it is a purposeful move by Girardi to see if things get better with Joba! But we’re not sure who is doing the catching.
“At the very least… if you’re going to make a point about molina v. jorgie with Joba, pay attention to the games instead of just stirring up ignorance. It’s so old. You have turned into a big yawn.”
For the sake of accuracy, I will post Joba’s results with all three catchers. I think at least one person has suggested that he has only worked well with Posada and had a terrible outing with Cervelli. I really don’t think that’s the case.
Yanks need a starter, there is no doubt about that fact….No the question is, they’ve come this far in their quest for a shot to be playing in late October…How important is it to the Brothers Steinbrenner’s to make that final push in achieving that goal…..New Stadium, new and extra Yankee Dollars, not making the playoffs last October…These all are imporatnt points to consider….Besides, Uncle George is on a time clock…Spend money to make money is the Steinbreener creed….If Doc is available, and they can make sense with the players they ship off, the deal can get done…..Vernon Wells and his conract is the swing in this equation….Abreu & Cory Lidle trade comes to mind…..
July 10th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Haha this thread has gone from people raving and saying Montero is better than Mauer (however semantically), to the polar opposite end of the spectrum that Montero is a bust and should be sold high.
Only at this place is that possible.
No sane person is calling Montero anything other than the best bat in the Yankees’ minor league system, who just happens to be in the middle of a slump.
Jackson is like the David Wright of the minors, not very impressive….
DB
July 10th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
bodh, there are no gaurantees the Yanks will hold on to either of them for 10 years. They will be free agents as will Doc in 11. Even Pettitte walked for 3 years when the Yanks couldn’t make up there mind. If Hughes turns out to be a young Pettitte then I’d be ecstatic.
====
The point is, if they can stay healthy, they have the ability to anchor a rotation for the next decade. They have the talent and the youth. Re-signing players isn’t an issue for the Yankees.
It’s not as if Halladay is 25 years old. He’s 32. His greatness isn’t in question – his age is a big fat deal breaker.
Both kids are nine years younger than Halladay. Meanwhile, we already HAVE the veteran ace, plus Burnett. We can win right now. We don’t have to mortgage our future to get “that one last piece.”
We’re there.
You just don’t take a “find” like Jesus Montero and include him as part of a package even if the pitcher you want is Cy Young.
Montero has to be seen to be believed. He IS the real deal.
I know most of you on here will disagree but I don’t really want Halladay. We’d have to give up Joba and/or Hughes and I wouldn’t give up on either of them. They are on my no-trade list.
I wouldn’t trade Hughes, Joba or Montero for anything except guys like Lincecum, Felix, Braun, Ramirez, etc but those trades would never ever happen. It would also take a lot for me to give up McAllister, Romine and Jackson but I would trade them for the right price.
nyp_joelsherman: yankees exec to watch mitre sun at T-A. if ok, he goes into rotation, with nady to 60-day dl to make 40-man room
You pro Halladay people see 3 years of guaranteed glory.
I see the tradeoff for that being the 10 years of glory I potentially sacrifice by giving up Hughes or Joba.
I want them BOTH in my rotation.
***
Thank you. In my head I am already imagining all of those times we are facing Joba or Hughes in some other uniform and the ESPN guys delightfully rant on for 5 innings about how they were Yankees and we traded them away as they dominate us.
That scenario makes me sick
***
Very much agreed.
And it’s a pretty minor slump, considering that he’s 19 years old in his first go around in Double AA.
Montero is far and away the best hitter in the system and one of the top five or six bats in the minor leagues.
Yankees didn’t do too well against the Angels last year. If I remember correctly, we suffered a 4 game sweep that wasn’t too pretty. And I usually remember the worst things and that was definitley one of them. Struggling with the Angels. Vlad and Torri being injured is, well…great as mean as it sounds.
Let’s see.
Aybar is hitting better in the last couple of games.
Napoli is cooling off.
Chone Figgins is a possible problem.
Howie Kendrick is…lol.
Kendry Morales is on fiya.
Abreu is on fiya.
Juan Rivera is extremely hot right now.
I say we win 2 out of 3 and lose to Weaver.
rconn23
July 10th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Well said, my friend.
In my head I am already imagining all of those times we are facing Joba or Hughes in some other uniform and the ESPN guys delightfully rant on for 5 innings about how they were Yankees and we traded them away as they dominate us.
That scenario makes me sick
************
so true
The fawning over the best bat in the Yankees’ minor league system is another example of the kind of silliness that happens with Yankees prospects, and then leads to the lovely and vitriolic fan reactions towards the big league struggles of people like Hughes and Chamberlain.
You know, from best prospect and much-beloved and worth discussing their worth compared to an established MLer on pace to go down as the greatest catcher ever, to all kinds of questions and doubts once they go through their first hard spell.
Which is where you get to the other end of the spectrum, the geniuses that want to make every trade and “sell high” on every prospect.
Joba had his best game with Posada catching but I think he’s generally done about as well or as badly with Posada and Cervelli. And probably Molina. Cherry-picking particular starts made in the 23-year-old’s half-season won’t prove much either way.
But for the sake of argument, let’s eliminate Ivan Rodriguez as catchers we like to watch Joba work with.
Can’t get too prospect happy Patrick.
I see your point but don’t overvalue these guys yet.
Also, Joba’s performance tonight will have nothing to do with who is catching. Its amazing people think otherwise.
I’d live with that Serf, Weaver is on my fantasy team.
Anyone notice how easily we handled the Angels in YS? Sciosia was trying to pull his mind games on the bases but the Yanks weren’t biting. I think he might have finally jumped the shark with his underdog beat the Yankees mantra.
Cano is 5th in all MLB with 105 hits.
I did not know this.
“In my head I am already imagining all of those times we are facing Joba or Hughes in some other uniform and the ESPN guys delightfully rant on for 5 innings”
They’ll only rant for 5 innings when Joba pitches. Hughes should last 6, maybe 7 innings.
Here’s the problem with some of you people…
Some of you expect these prospects to come up and have the same impact as Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, Andy Pettitte, etc…
Despite these guys NEVER seeing major league action, some are already comparing him to Bernie Williams or Montero to Posada. You have Mike Franseca saying Chamberlain is the next Goose Gossage or sometimes he says the next Rivera.
Here’s the problem…how the hell can any of you make such comparissons? Eric Duncan was supposed to be the next great Yankee and look at where he is now.
I’m sorry but if the Yankees have a chance to acquire a GREAT, not good, but GREAT starting pitcher in Roy Halladay, I’d take it.
You all post stuff like “the Yankees are sacraficing the future if they trade so and so”. How the hell do you figure that? Because they are young prospects, they’re automatically going to be the next Posada, Rivera, or Jeter? Please..
The bottom line is that we don’t know what Montero or Jackson will be like. Don’t make assumptions or say “he is the next Bernie Williams” or “he is the next Rivera.”
And you people forget…the Yankees will keep on drafting and developing prospects. The Yankees will keep spending money on free agents, something I have NO problem with if the Yankees spend the money on the RIGHT players. The Yankees will keep making trades to improve their ball club.
Trading away a Jackson or Montero isn’t the end of the world. If they get traded, we’ll get Roy Halladay in return. Sabathia, Halladay, Burnett is the best 1-2-3 in baseball.
Oh, Patrick. I’m completely opposite of you. I wouldn’t even trade for any of those players. maybe Ramirez because we don’t have a suitable replacement for Jeter. Lincecum’s no Doc. We have a power-hitting, gold-glove 1B.
Doc, Pujols, mauer. And I don’t even like Pujols, but his bat speaks volumes.
it won’t matter who is catching Joba if he’s not listening to him, which appears to be the case. if he’s still shaking off the first sign at the same clip, that’s a problem with Girardi and Eiland not getting him to trust his catcher and throw strikes, not a problem with the catcher. Joba runs into his difficulties when he goes hard against the signs that are put down and throws what HE wants to throw.
Steve B
July 10th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
“In my head I am already imagining all of those times we are facing Joba or Hughes in some other uniform and the ESPN guys delightfully rant on for 5 innings”
They’ll only rant for 5 innings when Joba pitches. Hughes should last 6, maybe 7 innings.
***
Haha. I was waiting for that joke as I was typing that line. Took longer than I thought for someone to say that
I think we are overlooking the obvious solution to the “who catches Joba” problem. Since no catcher seems to be able to put down the right signs, and he certainly has experience with it, we must have Arod call the games for Joba!
Geez Andrew, if we don’t have both ends of the spectrum why bother posting. For lucid, well thought out discussion on what possible trades we could make? How boring.
so someone needs to remind Joba that while he has the POTENTIAL to be great, he’s still young, still figuring it out and guys like Jorge or Molina understand the game much better than he does and just listen to what they tell you
Juan, just like we pro Montero-ites can’t lok at the homerun binge and say that he will without a doubt be the next Mike Piazza, you can’t say that he can’t hit the breakingball because of his 2-24. A lot of guys who can hit breakingballs have 2-24 slumps. I would bet that every hitter in the history of the game had some comprable slump at some point in their career.
What we do know about Montero is that he has been a big time prospect since we signed him at 16. He has consistently performed well at every level. He is starting to show plus power at about the age where special players start showing plus power. Baseball America has him as the number 3 prospect in the game and pretty much said he would be number one but for the defensive concerns.
Against the face of all that, one 2-24 slump in a league he is ludicrously young for is not much of a cause for concern.
Btw- I can make the argument for Molina in the lineup tonight just based on a night game before a day game
“He is overmatched and can’t hit breaking balls”. LOL
Four of his HR’s in AA have been on breaking balls.
Try again. ?The kid is the best pure, power hitter in minor league baseball and he’s a 19 year old catcher.
You Red Sox fans wish you had a guy in your system as good as Montero. I’ll tell ya, it ain’t Lars Anderson.
Trisha,
If you want to find the key to unlocking Joba’s struggles, here is what you do…..
You sit with him and go over every game he has pitched the last 2 years. Which, BTW, they have done.
Including, to name a few…….
The game against Cleveland last year when he came in with a 2 run lead in relief and Jose Molina catching.
He shook off Molina 11 times in that inning. It resulted in a walk to Sizemore, after he had him 0-2, and he shook off Molina 4 straight times to throw sliders, all of which missed, and he walked him.
Molina went out to the mound and told him to cool it and it had no effect.
He then proceeded to shake off him 2 more times in the next AB to Delucci, insisting on throwing his slider. David hit a 3 run HR to win the game for Cleveland.
The Red Sox game he won 1-0 last year. In that game, he shook off Molina TWICE. That’s it. It was his best pitched game in 2008.
The Cleveland game this year, his best pitched game of the year, with Posada catching, when he shook off Jorge three times the entire game.
The Mets game, with Jorge catching, when he melted down.
His last start against the Jays, with Cervelli catching, when he did the same stuff that has gotten him in this tailspin.
Sense a pattern?
Joba’s problem is Joba. Nobody else.
He’s talented, stubborn, out of shape, and keeps insisting he knows more about pitching than the staff, the manager and ALL the catchers.
You can also add, not accountable to the list after his ridiculous post-game comments after his last start.
Johnny Damon called out Phil Hughes after his Baltimore meltdown? You know why? Its because Damon, and the other vets on the team, LIKE Phil Hughes and wanted to see him pick it up because Hughes handles himself the right way.
Just like in life, players push those they like harder because they see unlocked potential and respect the way they go about their business.
Do you know why nobody is calling out Joba publicly? Because they are indifferent about him. They are tiring of the act, the lack of accountability and the difficulty he brings to his job with the BS he has with every catcher on the team.
He’s a 23 year old kid who has had a severe dose of “too much, too soon”.
The worst thing that can happen to a player is for his teammates to be indifferent about him. Its better if they hate him, than be indifferent about him. Joba brings it on himself with some of this stuff.
To that end, he is going to have to dig deep, grow up, and begin to be more of a professional in the way he goes about his business. If he does that, he has a chance to be great.
Not good, great.
If not? He’s a “didn’t you use to be” guy and nothing more.
Yeah true, I guess nobody wants to read that kind of thing DB–hyperbole is a whole lot more entertaining than thought-out discussion, after all.
“Here’s the problem with some of you people…”
Please do not refer to us as “you people”. We Lohud bloggers have been persecuted, demeaned, and discriminated against for many years; and we take great exception in being called “you people”.
Thanks DB,
You should hear the hosts and callers on WEEI in Boston, talking about how Halladay is a “luxury” and they wouldn’t give up Michael Bowden for him. Michael BOWDEN! LOL
Hey Mel.
Happy Friday! Why do you not like Pujols? Perhaps I have missed something about him. Can you explain? Thanks.
-dennis
new thread
Anthony,
Correct-e-mundo. Out of ALL of these prospects being bantied about, if TWO of them have successful, all star-type of ML careers, you throw a party.
If you have to trade Joba Chamberlain to get Doc Halladay, you do it and don’t look back.
No team is giving up their top 4-5 prospects in a Halladay trade. Not the Yankees, Phillies or anybody else.
Its all about finding a match that works. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you don’t.
However, some of you have to stop putting too much on the prospects. They aren’t all going to pan out. Even the “can’t miss” guys miss, more than 50% of the time in MLB.
We all have our “lists” of untouchables. They are all a LOT longer than the teams lists for the right player.
S.A.
Thanks. Forum debating isn’t an exact science, lol.
Doreen,
Agree. Consider the far reaching effects.
All you have to do is look at 2008.
I’ve said this before and will say it again. Before the 2008 season started, everyone was hoping on board the Generation Next bandwagon. Ian Kennedy was the next Mike Mussina, Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes the next Roger Clemens. That’s all I read on this blog for months and months leading up the season.
And it blew up in the Yankees faces.
So do you know what kind of responses Generation Next was getting on here? “BAH! We should have traded for Santana! Joba needs to go back to the bull pen! Ian Kennedy is the biggest ass for making those comments after the game he pitched agasint the Angels!”
Even the ‘trade Robinson Cano’ bandwagon was starting to gain some more steam.
The problem is that some of you put so much stock, so much hope into these prospect and when they don’t deliver as expected, you people demand for them to be traded or optioned back down to the minors. Or sometimes just straight up released.
The bottom line is this – we do not know what Jesus Montero, Austin Jackson, Andrew Brackman, etc… will be like at a Major League level. To keep passing on these established (and fairly young) starting pitchers like Roy Halladay and Johan Santana is such a major risk. If these prospects don’t work out, we can’t even trade them for the value they were once worth. Then we have to see Santana or Halladay or any other great player we pass up go onto have excellent careers.
I gurantee you, if the day Jesus Montero is catching for the New York Yankees and he busts big time, all you will read on this blog or anywhere else will be how foolish the Yankees were for passing up on getting a Santana or Halladay.
This is a no brainer in my book.
Some of you keep saying “we need to think about the future, about the next 10 years”. It’s like your assuming these players will be great…don’t do that. Don’t build up these expectations because when they don’t deliver, and 9 out of 10 times they wont, you guys will complain.
You all talk about winning a World Championship…I’m with you guys. Getting Roy Halladay gives us that chance now and the near future. I don’t know if Joba/Montero/Jackson/Hughes can give me that.
SJ44’s assessment of Joba (aka Slob-a) is mostly right on.
Out of shape, spoiled, thinks he knows the game better than veteran catchers, and since his injury last season can’t find his 95 mph fastball to save his life. Also, hits too many opposing batters, which puts our guys at risk. I would love to see Kevin Youkliss take Joba down the next time Joba tries to pop him.
I would love to trade this guy while there is still some trade value left.
Look at the DWI charge, his Mom is a drug dealer, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. He’s just a messed up piece of white trash who used to be able to throw 95 mph.
YankWatcher: If you want to pretend your are a Yankee fan while trolling, you have to try a little harder.
Go back to your Sox blog now. Please. Thanks.
86w183
July 10th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Actually Jackson is very highly regarded. He is one of the youngest players in the International League and is hitting over 300 with extra base power and good speed and defense.
He’s better than Bernie was at this age… let’s see what he comes in time.
I think this is an important night for Joba… someone should count the times he shakes his catcher off and the result.
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He is already very, very good. As a defender, he really has instinct to go along with his speed and leaping ability, and his arm is a good one for CF. He’s a gazelle in the OF.
Boy, you want to help the rotation? Stash this kid in CF. He has a quick bat too, and with the shorter stroke, he’s actually generating way more power than when he had the high leg kick going and the hack swing.
It’s rather condescending when people bleat out that others are “over rating” prospects. It’s really a case-by-case basis.
I don’t come on here and say I “like” or “don’t like” a player. I don’t say the player is “great” or “stinks” without providing some support for my position. Others here also do a good job of justifying their opinions.
It’s haughty to gloss over anyone who prefers to hang onto high-end players like Jackson and Montero and declare they are unconditionally lovesick over “prospects.”
Mark in Tampa July 10th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
“Here’s the problem with some of you people…”
Please do not refer to us as “you people”. We Lohud bloggers have been persecuted, demeaned, and discriminated against for many years; and we take great exception in being called “you people”.
————-
Help, help, we’re being repressed!
Look at the DWI charge, his Mom is a drug dealer, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. He’s just a messed up piece of white trash who used to be able to throw 95 mph.
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…and he’ll be stomping on the Red Sox’s grave in all his “white trash” glory.
Sucks you don’t have him, doesn’t it?
Wow that’s rough.. At least we get a break with them this year. It would be great if we could sweep.
FWIW, here are Joba’s starts, per catcher.
*Molina*
1ER, 6IP – KC, (ND) Yankee L, 4-6
5ER, 4.2IP – Cle, (ND) Yankee W, 6-5
1ER, 5.1IP – at Bos, (ND) Yankee L, 4-5
*Cervelli*
3ER, 6IP – at Bal (W), 5-3
0ER, .2IP – Min, Yankee W, 7-4
3ER, 4IP – Bal, (ND), Yankee L, 3-7
3ER, 6IP – Wash, (L), 0-3
2ER, 6IP – at Atl, (W), 8-4
*Cash*
2ER, 6IP – Min, (ND), Yankee W, 6-4
*Posada*
1ER, 7IP – at Det, (W), 8-6
2ER, 8IP – at Cle, (W), 5-2
3ER, 6IP – TB, (ND), Yankee W, 4-3
2ER, 4IP – NYM, (ND), Yankee W, 9-8*
3ER, 5.1IP – Sea, (ND), Yankee W, 8-5
3ER, 3.2IP – Tor, (ND), Yankee W, 10-8