Game 87: Yankees at Angels (updated with Girardi pre-game audio)
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- July
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YANKEES (51-35)
Jeter SS
Damon LF
Teixeira 1B
Rodriguez 3B
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cano 2B
Hinske RF
Gardner CF
Pitching: LHP Andy Pettitte (8-4, 4.53).
ANGELS (47-37)
Figgins DH
Aybar SS
Abreu RF
Napoli C
Morales 1B
Matthews CF
Kendrick 2B
Wood 3B
Quinlan LF
Pitching: RHP Jered Weaver (9-3, 3.15),
TIME/TV: 4:10 p.m. (ET), FOX.
STATE OF THE STRIPES: The Yankees were beaten 10-6 last night in an ugly game that saw them kick a 5-1 lead. That dropped the Yankees a game out of first. Still, they have won three of four on this road trip and six of eight overall.
HALO HORROR: The Yankees are 38-47 against Los Angeles since the start of the 2000 season. It is the only team this decade they have a losing record against. The Yankees are 2-8 at Angel Stadium the last three years and 5-15 over the last five.
BRUNEY’S BATTLE: Brian Bruney’s last 7 games: 6.1 innings, 9 hits, 6 earned runs, 8 walks, 4 strikeouts, Opponents are hitting .474 against him in that stretch.
ANDY NOT SO DANDY: Pettitte lost his last start, giving up six runs on five hits and five walks against Toronto. He faced the Angels on May 1 and took a no-decision, giving up five runs over 5.2 innings in a game the Yankees won 10-9.
He is 12-8, 4.52 in 26 career starts against the Angels are 6-5, 3.79 at Angel Stadium in 14 starts.
A-ROD IN ACTION: Alex Rodriguez is 20 of his last 51 (.392) with six homers, 14 runs scored and 19 RBI. His average is up to .257.
OLD FRIEND: Bobby Abreu is hitting .306 with a .406 OBP and 54 RBI for Los Angeles. He has 38 RBI in his last 37 games.
CAPTAIN ON A ROLL: Derek Jeter is 8 of his last 18.
HEATING UP: Robinson Cano is 15 of 43 in July with seven extra-base hits and four RBI/
SLOPPY: The Yankees have five errors in their last three games.
HOME RUN HEAVEN: The latest career-home run chart:
8. Mark McGwire 583
9. Harmon KIllebrew 573
10. Rafael Palmeiro 569
11. Alex Rodriguez 568
Wonder what Killebrew thinks of being in that company?
DREAM WEAVER: Weaver is 6-1, 3.86 in his last eight starts. He lost to the Yankees on May 1, allowing four runs on four hits over six innings. He is 3-1 but has a 6.11 ERA in five career starts against the Yankees.
Back with more later on.
UPDATE, 2:47 p.m.: Here is Joe Girardi’s pregame:
If you’re really into the Joba situation, listen in. Girardi defends the right-hander and the decision to use him as a starter, etc. Girardi thinks it’s unfair that “so much attention” is paid to Joba.
But part of that he brings on himself with the many commericials and his persona. Which is fine, but at some point you need to back that up.
To me it comes down to this:
Joba as a starter in 2008: 3-1, 2.76 in 12 starts. 1.301 WHIP, 10.2 K/9
Joba as a starter 2009: 4-2, 4.25 in 17 starts. 1.562 WHIP, 7.9 K/9
Joba proved he could be a great starter last season. Same manager, same pitching coach, same team. He has not been the same pitcher this season beyond occasional glimpses. Unless that shoulder injury was worse than they said (a distinct possibility), than it falls on him to get better.
This is not about what role he should be in or how he’s being coached or any peripheral nonsense. This is about whether he can physically be the same pitcher he was last season. So far, he has not been.
Girardi keep bringing up Joba’s age and inexperience. With all due respect, that’s an excuse. He was younger and less experienced last season and he was a terrific starter. Not good, terrific.
UPDATE, 3:04 p.m.: The Mets signed Angel Berroa to a minor-league contract. He came highly recommended by Jay Hook, Roger Craig and Vinegar Bend Mizell.
Berroa on the Mets. It’s the gift that keeps on giving.
UPDATE, 4:13 p.m.: We’re underway here at Angel Stadium. 87 degrees and a beautiful day here in the O.C. Enjoy the game.
UPDATE, 4:18 p.m.: And A-Rod injects himself into the top 10 of the career home run list, tying Rafael Palmeiro with 569 home runs. He now trails Harmon Killebrew by four homers for ninth place.
2-0 Yankees.
UPDATE, 4:23 p.m.: 2-0 and Pettitte walks Figgins. Hey, that’s what Chone is trying to do. Just as Joba.
UPDATE, 4:25 p.m.: Great play by Gardner. Figgins was out, too. The 1B umpire, Brian Gorman, called him out but Mike Everitt came up from the plate and called him safe.
UPDATE, 4:34 p.m.: Via assorted Twitter-peeps: A-Rod has five hits vs. Weaver, four of them jacks. See previous post for his stats at this stadium. Just crazy.
UPDATE, 4:27 p.m.: Tyler Kepner has a good blog post on Joba. Check it out on Bats.
Meanwhile, Joe Girardi’s Hinske selection is genius as he homers.
Hinske was 3 for 9 against Weaver, Swishalicious 3 for 19.
UPDATE, 4:44 p.m.: Yankees say they have signed seventh-round pick Sean Black (RHP) and 12th-round pick Brett Gerritse (RHP).
UPDATE, 5:03 p.m.: Andrew Eugene dealing. Yankees lead 3-0. Meanwhile there are literally at least two hot babes in every row of the stands behind home plate here. I don’t know how people watch the game game here.
UPDATE, 5:10 p.m.: Weaver walks A-Rod, which is better than allowing a homer.
UPDATE, 5:18 p.m.: Cano apparently didn’t see A-Rod taking a lead off second base because he knocked a single into center field. 4-0 Yankees.
Meanwhile Michael Kay is calling the Fox booth and screaming, “Say he’s throwing a no-hitter! Say it!”
UPDATE, 5:20 p.m.: See? Aybar doubles.
UPDATE, 5:21 p.m.: Abreu RBI single. What a great value he has been for the Angels. That’s 55 RBI for him.
UPDATE, 5:28 p.m.: Nice job by Pettitte limiting the damage. Take notes, Joba. This is pitching.
4-1 Yankees after four innings.
UPDATE, 5:37 p.m.: Mark Feinsand of the News has some bloggy thoughts on Joba, too. Check it out.
UPDATE, 5;51 p.m.: That didn’t take long. Single, homer and Yankees lead only 4-3. Pettitte again in damage-control mode as the top of the order comes up.
It’s never easy with the Angels, especially here. If Mike Scioscia is not the best manager in the game, he’s in the picture.
UPDATE, 5:56 p.m.: Figgins knows Hinske is a defensive liability and took third easily. Now RBI machine Abreu with runners on the corners and one out. Hard not to see the Angels at least tying it.
UPDATE, 5:59 p.m.: RBI single and Andy is cooked, Three hitless innings and then poof, seven hits over the next 1.1. David Robertson gets a shot to get out of it.
CC and AJ better be real good this summer.
UPDATE, 6:03 p.m.: What was that I said about how well Andy was pitching? Yikes. Final line: 4.1 7 6 6 2 1.
Yankees trail the Angels again, now 6-4.
UPDATE, 6:13 p.m.: Yankees haven’t had one of these disaster innings in a while. But that qualified. Seven runs on six hits, a walk and a stolen base. Angels lead 8-4 and it looks like the Yankees started the break a few days early.
UPDATE, 6:17 p.m.: Jered Weaver has recovered from his early woes. He has fanned four of the last six batters he has faced. Nine for the game.
UPDATE, 6:19 p.m.: Yankees get seven put on them and go 1-2-3 in the next inning.
UPDATE, 6:29 p.m.: If this game were an election, NBC news could have declared Los Angeles the winner by now. Yankees have allowed nine runs in the last three innings.
UPDATE, 6:37 p.m.: Hinske again homers. He’s been more helpful today than Angel Berroa was for two months. The two-run blast brings the Yankees to within 9-6.
That Hinske has already driven in four runs as a Yankee underscores how wasteful the Yankees were leaving Berroa on the roster as long as they did.
UPDATE, 6:52 p.m.: Brett Tomko, the human white flag, out to wrap this one up. This has a chance to get really bad.
Looks like it’ll be CC to try and avoid a sweep tomorrow. At least Hughes and Rivera will be rested.
UPDATE, 7:00 p.m.: A-Rod moves into the Top 10 in career home runs. At least he’ll be happy.
He has 65 homers against the Angels, more than any opponent. He has 35 homers here. The Angels probably would have signed him if the Yankees had let him walk.
UPDATE, 7:02 p.m.: And Matsui goes yard. 10-8 Angels. Hope you had the over. What a nutty game. Do the Yankees have two more runs in them? The bigger question is can they keep the Angels from scoring.
UPDATE. 7:08 p.m.: Cano walks (really, Cano walked?) and Hinske comes to the dish as the tying run. Could he hit a third?
18 runs on 21 hits in this game. Neither club has covered itself in pitching glory today.
UPDATE, 7:13 p.m.: Tomko out and Coke in.
UPDATE, 7:23 p.m.: So the Yankees have allowed two Angels to reach base after striking out on wild pitches.
If I’m Dave Eiland, I ask to get paid for each trip to the mound. Or get milage at least.
UPDATE, 7:26 p.m.: Bobby Abreu five RBI the last two days. I would guess he’s pretty pleased with that given how the Yankees dismissed him after last season.
UPDATE, 7:30 p.m.: Just when they looked in it, Phil Coke takes them out of it. That’s six runs allowed by the bullpen so far.
UPDATE, 7:31 p.m.: As the players say, nothing you can do but wear it. 14-8 Angels.
UPDATE, 7:37 p.m.: Jeter GIDPs to further enrage the bridge-jumping fan base.
UPDATE, 7:38 p.m.: Back later with some reaction. Yankees lose 14-8.
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Killebrew thinking he was half the player that Arod is today.
Killebrew won’t have to think about Alex for too much longer. Alex will be well past him by the end of the season.
Harmon Killebrew had a .256 career batting average.
wow, up early pete?
I hate to say it, I really do but Chamberlain needs to go back to the bullpen. We need another starter. If that was the best stuff he had as a starter last night, it’s not good enough.
A terrible way to lose last nights game. Hate to be a whiner but the umpires hurt us again. That call at second was big and as usual my ex college teammate CB Bucknor was brutal behind the plate. He is a terrible ump and we rarely win when he umps the plate. Would love to see the elias stats on that one.
Need to win at least 1 in LA to make this a good tip before the break.
Don’t see Halliday coming our way but we could use another starter. Is it time to send Joba to the pen for the rest of the season?
Seems a bit early.
Putting Joba back in the pen is in fact the WORST thing they could do for his development right now. Stop moving him around.
He’s not going to be that same guy in 2007. Not even close.
And now that Hughes’ innings cap is not going to be met because of their insistence of keeping him in the pen, they do not want to go through the very same crap again next year with two kids in the rotation with an innings cap of 150 IP for the season.
It makes no sense at all.
Trade Joba for Halladay is my wish.
Yesterday was unfortunate, but whatever. Three game series.
Don’t tell me it’s attacking the zone that’s his issue. Both Singleton and Flaherty said he WAS attacking the zone today. Something is up with his stuff.
Joba to scranton is the most plausible scenario. send him down, call up mitre or igawa and they can at least give u innings if nothing else
Franco-I believe he was talking about a permanent move to the pen.
Eventually, you have to consider it. But I think it is far, far too soon.
An article critical of the Red Sox signing that Cuban shortstop. It says they paid too much money for him because he lacks a bat. Also, an update on that Cuban lefty pitcher that defected with that SS and a couple of prospects that the Yankees are still interested in.
http://insider.espn.go.com/esp.....e_jorge_jr
Ramey-Igawa cannot give you innings.
I never realized the Yankee record at Angel Stadium was that shoddy. Hmm…at least we have CC tomorrow.
“Ramey-Igawa cannot give you innings.”
well the yankees don’t really see him as anything long-term anyway, so they could run him out there for 5 or 6 innings and 100+ pitches. he’ll give u more than joba has been. i happen to think that he’s earned at least another shot in the bigs
If the Yankees were to make Jesus Montero available in a trade, how could the Jays not at least consider trading Halladay within the division?
Ramey -Igawa will not give you 5 or 6 innings. He’ll give you three and five runs, with luck.
I’ve seen that show before. No more Igawa.
When umpire calls go the Yankees way, nobody says a word. Umpires make bad calls. That, unfortunately, is the way it is.
How much time do you give Bruney? He is terrible. If you can, send him down till he straightens himself out.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 11th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Yesterday was unfortunate, but whatever. Three game series.
Don’t tell me it’s attacking the zone that’s his issue. Both Singleton and Flaherty said he WAS attacking the zone today. Something is up with his stuff.
————-
But I thought a higher velocity was going to fix all his issues?
He was sitting at 94 MPH much of the night and hitting 95-97 MPH at times as well.
It didn’t make any difference, now did it?
Just like I told you yesterday.
Pitching is more about command, location, and attacking the zone that it is about velocity.
The home run was on hanging slider and several hits were on fastballs up in the zone.
Doesn’t matter if throwing 91 MPH or 98 MPH like Kyle Farnsworth; throwing a lot of belt high fastballs is going to get a pitcher knocked around.
Bret the Hitman-If the Yankees did that, they would be fools.
It would be an awful, awful trade for the Yankees if they lost Montero.
wait till they come to our house again,
that’s a fair enough opinion. i just think he’s pitched well enough at scranton where he or even mitre should get a look, because joba doesn’t belong in the rotation right now and sending him to the bullpen won’t help
Franco-I saw lots of 87-89 MPH fastballs later in the game.
Ramey-Fair enough, but I think sending in Igawa is unfortunately tantamount to giving away the game.
All you have to know is that with Halladay,CC and AJ and this offense the Yanks would have by far the best rotation in all of baseball. If it means giving up Joba then you do it. I am not impressed with him or his Ho-Hum attitude after his games. Sure he is 23, but maybe he doesn’t have that “starter” mentality… Don’t know, but if the Sox get into thus Halladay then the Yanks may want to rethink this.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 11th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Bret the Hitman-If the Yankees did that, they would be fools.
It would be an awful, awful trade for the Yankees if they lost Montero.
———
That wasn’t my question. My question is, if the Yankees were to make Jesus Montero availabe, how could the Jays not at least consider moving Halladay within the division? They’re not going to get a better prospect than Montero for Halladay so they’d be stupid to not at least toy with the idea of sending him to the Yankees for Montero.
“Franco-I saw lots of 87-89 MPH fastballs later in the game.”
Then you need to readjust your focus because gameday has no record of those fastballs.
“Fair enough, but I think sending in Igawa is unfortunately tantamount to giving away the game”
That very well could be true. But i guess you never know till you try? maybe he can be our asian aaron small this year
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 11th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Franco-I believe he was talking about a permanent move to the pen.
Eventually, you have to consider it. But I think it is far, far too soon.
————-
No, it’s not a consideration. He’s better off starting in Scranton than pitching out of the pen in the Bronx.
You don’t take your best arm in the organization out of the rotation because he struggled through 17 starts in his first full season in the starting rotation.
That’s asinine.
call up mitre or igawa and they can at least give u innings if nothing else
==========================
They can also give you heartburn in addition to innings
“They can also give you heartburn in addition to innings”
I like to live on the wild side
Cash is King-Gameday? Come on. Very innacurate.
Later in the game I remember, in the fifth inning, looking and saying “Joba’s fastball is a lot slower. His stuff is not good tonight he’s gonna blow up.”
And he did.
Bret-Yeah, Toronto would trade in the division for Montero. I wouldn’t do it though.
I don’t think the Yanks will send Joba down.
If the Yanks need a spot starter are Mitre and Igawa their only options? With their farm system, they don’t have any other pitchers they could start?
Cash is King July 11th, 2009 at 10:25 am
“Franco-I saw lots of 87-89 MPH fastballs later in the game.”
Then you need to readjust your focus because gameday has no record of those fastballs.
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http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....els-14397/
I don’t know what you guys were looking at but I didn’t see his fastball hit 95 once last night. It was sitting between 90 and 92.
Franco-Yes, you consider it. He’s gotten progressively worse.
Yes, 17 games is too soon. Do you have a timetable for what’s NOT too soon?
Gameday inaccurate, but your basing the velocity on what then?
And gameday is much more accurate than the television or stadium readings.
I read River Ave Blues. Apparently I was watching a different game than you guys because the fastball started out decent then got progressively worse from what I saw.
“Wonder what Killebrew thinks of being in that company?”
Could I have hit 573 HR against juiced pitchers?
You don’t put joba into the bullpen. he disintegrates the second a runner reaches base and you want him coming out of the pen, when runners would probably be on base already? that’s not really going to help the yankees. he’s better off going to scranton and trying to fix out the laundry list of issues he has.
Cash is King-I trust the TV/stadium readings more tthan gameday, which is notoriously innacurate.
Joba could outpitch Tomko out of the pen with his eyes closed – tomorrow.
By the way, if you’re Juan Uribe you’re buying Sanchez dinner every night for the rest of your life.
“Cash is King-I trust the TV/stadium readings more tthan gameday, which is notoriously innacurate.”
Then I have nothing else to say to you except you’re wrong.
I have rarely been more aggravated than I was with last night’s loss – one of the worst of the season. Let’s see:
1) Joba was terrible yet again. He’s not making any progress and he’s killing the pen
2) Melancon was not good
3)Bruney just ripped the heart out of the team. The Yankees were down 1 run and, with their ability to comeback, were in well within striking distance. They had just scored a run……..and then wham, Bruney just threw gasoline on the fire.
I
Cash is King-What information did you get that gameday is so accurate with the MPH readings?
Gameday is not accurate with just about anything else, so why the MPH readings?
Sorry if I sound kind of mad today, that loss really made me mad. (I’d say more but it would be picked up and I wouldn’t be allowed to post)
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 11th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Franco-Yes, you consider it. He’s gotten progressively worse.
Yes, 17 games is too soon. Do you have a timetable for what’s NOT too soon?
————
Moving Hughes out of the rotation last season wasn’t even a consideration for the organization and he didn’t win a single game all year.
But Yankee fans cannot stomach growing pains so none of this nonsense surprises me.
The comments on this board are eerily similar to the night that Hughes blew up in Baltimore and he turned things around just fine with essentially two pitches.
Taking lumps is all part of the developmental process. If you give up on these kids so early, you’ll turn back the clock to the 1980s Yankees.
And nobody wants that.
Oops ……
I’m sorry, but how is this rotation not in trouble? The Yankees actually do need Halladay. Andy is unreliable, Joba is worse and the 5th spot is up in the air. If not Halladay, they absolutely need another starter………..and another bullpen arm. I don’t know what’s wrong with Bruney, but he’s dreadful.
The only time Joba has looked decent lately is when he throws his slider for a strike.
Giuseppe Franco,
Well said. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Betsy-FAR from the worst loss of the season-the top three are all Yankees Soox, then the Phillies game, all before this.
This is game 1 in a 3 game series we still have every chance to win.
But you’re right-it was dissappointing for all the reasons you mentioned.
Franco-17 games is far too soon. One season, far too soon. We’ve established that.
When is not too soon?
LoL, Heyman suggest Joba/Montero/Betances for Hallday.
Surprisingly the only untouchable to me is Hughes/Montero.
Joba is still reading his 07 press clippings. And this is the problem.
personally, i wouldn’t send him to the bullpen. That would be making it too easy for him. Maybe a stint in Scranton is what he needs.
I refuse to believe i, or anyone else was wrong about him being a starting pitcher. Assuming he is healthy, he has the goods to be a ML starting pitcher. However, he has to earn it.
NYY has committed to him as a starting pitcher. They should either relegate his rotation starts to Scranton. Or trade him
Hughes is VERY far from untouchable.
For what it’s worth Joba has 29 career starts and hughes has 28 career starts. Joba has been world’s better in his short career as a starter, compared to hughes. obviously it’s a small sample size and doesn’t matter much. but everyone seems to be of the opinion that hughes needs to be in the rotation and joba should be in the pen
Kelvin Ace July 11th, 2009 at 10:36 am
LoL, Heyman suggest Joba/Montero/Betances for Hallday.
————
I’d do it. It solves all our problems for 3 years.
The difference with Hughes is that Hughes blew up, then improved. Joba is getting progressively worse.
If he’s sent down to Scranton, who replaces him?
One thing that I’ve learned the last couple of years is DO NOT take the YES gun as gospel.
Those readings have been way off all season.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen someone throw a curve ball at 92-93 MPH (which is impossible) and fire ballers who throw 95 MPH+ sitting in the high 80s.
Do not trust the YES gun readings.
what is Cody doing on this team ? Joba has stopped pitching inside & can’t put batters away…0=2,1-2,2-2 counts
Joba Chamberlain has barely pitched in the minors. He’s going through a major bump in his development as a starter in the big-time.
The Yankees ushered him up here, and he quickly became a cult hero. There’s no way that could have been averted. He’s a kid and he’s encountering some challenges. The Yankees will just have to hold his hand.
As to players not “liking” him, and other innuendo – if his location and execution returns, they’ll get over that dislike.
Joba isn’t being dealt, he’s going to be developed: deal with it.
That’s what you do if you are serious about developing your own young pitchers, rather than just giving lip service to the concept.
Cashman has said we’re trying to develop and win at the same time. So far, that plan has us a game out of first.
It’s not like Joba hasn’t pitched well this season.
He pitched like a savvy veteran in that game up at Fenway earlier in the year – pitched great vs. Boston at home after the first inning, threw the Cleveland gem, had a good start vs. Atlanta, etc.
Implying this kid is a hopeless reprobate and a bum doesn’t really do him any justice. All I’m hearing from the “fed up” people is unbridled emotionalism.
One needs a cool head when charting the progress of these talented, but essentially “green” kids.
And it’s not on Joba that Wang got hurt and he’s been “promoted” in the rotation.
Although I detest these watery sportswriter-esque words devoid of real meaning, they are getting tossed around here enough any way.
So here’s my contribution to the extravagance and the noise: Joba is a “winner.”
He will come out the other end of this, because he actually DID do some things right last night. Unfortunately, his FB was amped but it didn’t really have much life.
He threw strikes any way, and tried to get away with a mediocre breaking pitch in a hitter’s count. Let’s burn him at the stake for that, shall we?
What the hysterics are choosing to ignore is that his velocity was up, and he was less reliant on his breaking stuff.
He got through the first half of the year with a lot to figure out going into the second half.
It’s his first year as a starter.
Give him a chance to come around, will you?
Your solution to his struggles: to ship him out for yet another pitcher over 30 years of age, so we can sweep in and remove any bit of suspense or doubt en route to a 2009 championship – stinks.
Ramey-You’re right about that.
Bret-Montero has to be an untouchable. He’s putting up some of the best minor league numbers of the past decade.
vet SP (innings eater),lock down 8th inning RP & a really utility player = distance from the Red Sox & TB
Fine, let’s say I forget the YES readings. I’m not trusting gameday. If anything that is more innaccurate.
Hughes improved when he went to the bullpen. nobody knows that when he goes back to the rotation he’ll be the guy who threw the 8 shut out innings in texas, or the guy who didn’t pitch past the 5th inning in 5 of his other 6 starts
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 11th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Ramey-You’re right about that.
Bret-Montero has to be an untouchable. He’s putting up some of the best minor league numbers of the past decade.
————–
If the Yankees feel they can win 2 or 3 wins with Halladay, I don’t see how they can make anyone untouchable, even Montero.
wins = WS
Phil Hughes was sent down to AAA to work out his issues. Joba is really stretching the bullpen in his starts. You can’t have a starter who can’t get out of the 5th inning every time he pitches.
joeman-lockdown 8th inning guy=Phil Hughes.
The Yankees at this point in time have the prospects to pull this off with Halladay. He is a difference maker in the AL East. PERIOD!! The only player that makes me cringe when the thought comes up is Montero. I think he is gonna be a great power/average type hitter. Position is still up in the air with him, but he is a monster!
Bre-You make Montero an untouchable because he can become a cornerstone of the franchiise. Halladay is not old, but he’s too old to be a cornerstone.
He’s that special.
Bre is Bret.
Fran -
That’s exactly why I think Joba SHOULD be sent to the minors. If Phil and Kennedy can be sent to the minors to work out their issues, joba should be held to the same standards
If the Yankees can get Halladay without giving up Montero and just one of Joba or Hughes, they need to make the trade.
Joba should be sent to the minors. The problem is, who replaces him?
I give him one more start after the ASB to get it together, see if the break helps.
Question is, who replaces him?
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 11th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Bre-You make Montero an untouchable because he can become a cornerstone of the franchiise. Halladay is not old, but he’s too old to be a cornerstone.
He’s that special.
———–
But the whole reason why you have a cornerstone is to win a world series. If the Yankees feel like Halladay can help them win 2 or three World Series, I don’t see how they could pass up that opportunity by making Montero unavailable.
Sorry for asking the same question twice, LOL.
would you trust Hughes with a 1 run lead against either TB-Bos(home or away) in the 8th inning.. if the answer is yes than he’s your man
Bret-Montero wil last longer. He can help you win more WS than Halladay over the course of a career.
joeman-I say yes, but that’s just me I guess.
There needs to be a wole lot less focus on velocity. It’s not that big a deal. Joba throws plenty hard (usually aorund 92)to get hitters out. Is see two major problems
1. When he goes to the stretch he works to slow, throws too much slop and stops challenging hitters with fastballs in.
2. When a guy fouls off two pitches with two strikes he seems to give up and say “screw it” and just lobs something in there to get the AB over with.
Solve those two problems and you’ll have a very good starting pitcher. Fail to solve them and Joba will be the Kyle Farnswurst of his generation.
86w183-The problem is that the velocity drop, and it was a big one, may also be masking an injury or be in tandem with the other problems.
I’m not suggesting they trade for Halladay, but this is one of the instances where we can Trade and still have a good farm system.
We actually have some decent depth.
I wouldn’t trade montero or hughes.But could a joba,romine,melancon,betances/halladay trade work?
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 11th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Franco-17 games is far too soon. One season, far too soon. We’ve established that.
When is not too soon?
——————-
It’s not even worth discussing because there’s no chance it happens anytime soon.
No organization is going to take their best arm and pull the plug on him before he proves unequivocally that he cannot be a starter.
There’s lots of room for development. He might enter the offseason with a renewed vigor and drive and come back a completely different pitcher next season like Hughes did.
These struggles are actually good for him. Pitching in the majors came way too easy for him too early and he needed a little humility.
It will only make him a better pitcher down the road.
This team has enough pitching to win. No need for Halladay. Even if they got Halladay would he improve their defense? Their hitting with men in scoring position? Their propensity to make mistakes against good teams in high pressure situations? I think not.
Halladay has to be untouchabe. The Yankees haven’t had a bat like that in their system, nevermind a catcher, in years.
Also, why the early game thread?
I trade for Haladay as long as I don’t have to give both Hughes and Joba and Montero.
One of the 2 and anybody but Montero, I’d do it.
Franco-I hope he gets better.
But I have no idea if it’ll happen for sure.
Still, I think back to when Joba was one of my favorite players and hope he can get through this.
By the way, Rebecca-You mean Montero?
“Also, why the early game thread?”
What else we suppose to talk about in the next five hours?
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 11th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Bret-Montero wil last longer. He can help you win more WS than Halladay over the course of a career.
————
But with Halladay the Yankees might feel like 2 or 3 World Series rings is more of a sure-thing.
“LoL, Heyman suggest Joba/Montero/Betances for Hallday.
Surprisingly the only untouchable to me is Hughes/Montero”
let’s just make it easy on us, and not trade for Halladay.
I want to see what our prospects can do (Montero, Ajax, others). To me, it makes following the Yankees worthwhile. There is no fun, in buying a championship. Sacriledge i know
Joba is the classic case of a guy who wants to make the batters swing and miss, how else do you explain that even when he has 2 strike counts he simply refuses to throw anything except an inept offspeed pitch that doesn’t even tempt the hitter to swing.
Give me a guy with location any day of the week over velocity. Greg Maddux was not a fireballer, yet he could locate a pitch in any count at any time to any batter. Its about location not velocity. Joba’s location is just hideous.
“Wonder what Killebrew thinks of being in that company?”
If I was Killebrew, I’d think I was pretty darn good.
Put the grandkids on the knee and say ” Look how strong Grandpa was. All these other men needed drugs to hit as many home runs as I did.”
ramey yea igawa and mitre would give you length…..what are you talking about.. does your brain work?
Igawa stinks plain and simple he is a AAA pitcher, bottom line…He is more painful to watch then Joba the prodigy.
The problem with Joba is he is stupid and has no clue on pitch selection etc… He thinks he is a finesse pitcher….
Right now, I’ll buy another WS championship in a heartbeat.
Does the media know how good Montero bat is? Obviously they don’t when they’re advocating trading him.
Bret-I don’t think you get how good Montero is. As a hitter he has a ceiling as high as Pujols.
That’s his ceiling. Even if he doesn’t reach it he could be a tremdous hitter.
Halladay may feel like more of a sure thing but Montero is a gift and we shouldn’t give him up.
the yanks are not getting Halladay but I will have to read these delusional trade proposals for 1 more month.
yech……………
There are many more gettable pitchers, for a far cheaper price, that can do a just fine job as the #5 starter.
Anyone who trades for Halladay is going to have to give up their version of Joba and Montero and that’s just to start.
For me, it’s not worth it.
But we don’t really know what “velocity drop” we’re talking about. I watched the game on YES and at least five times Singleton mentioned a speed three MPH faster than was on the graphic. Unless you have standardization of radar guns and operators you cannot rely on the information.
That said no power closer is going to throw as hard as a starter. It just doesn’t make sense. Hughes is throwing harder in his limited stints than he was when starting. It’s just the way it almost always is.
Great starting pitchers can maintain velocity for 100+ pitches time and time again. Joba is not a great starting pitcher and I question if he will ever be one.
I think Montero and Hughes are completely off the board for a Halladay trade. Joba and Melancon are probably in the mix, for discussion, but probably not both of them.
I’d be inclined to let them take three or four guys out of these four pairings:
Joba/Melancon/McAllister
Dunn/Betances/Robertson
Cervelli/Romine
Pena/Nunez
I would want them to take Melancon, Betances, Cervelli. My guess is they would take Joba, Romine and Nunez…
I’m sorry, but Hughes and Joba are still to me on equal ground.
Debate as you wish. Gotta split. Go yanks!
stuart,
i was simply saying that igawa and mitre would give you more than what joba is giving you right now. so it would give u the chance to send joba to scranton for a couple weeks and try and get him straightened out. the veiled shot at my intelligence was unncessary
“joba,romine,melancon,betances/halladay trade work?”
to me it would. It depends on Riccardi’s view of Joba.
maybe:
joba
romine
mcallister
melancon or betances
personally, with many of our arms injured in the minors (Kontos, Garcia etc) i would rather hold on to Melancon
Just think about it though, ITS HIGHLY IMPOSSIBLE BUT THINK..
CC
Halladay
AJ
Pettite
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 11th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Bret-I don’t think you get how good Montero is. As a hitter he has a ceiling as high as Pujols.
That’s his ceiling. Even if he doesn’t reach it he could be a tremdous hitter.
Halladay may feel like more of a sure thing but Montero is a gift and we shouldn’t give him up.
———-
I do get it. I just want to win 2 or 3 world series within the next 4 years. What if I’m dead in 5 years?
If he was really honest he’d probably also have to smile and say, “of course, I needed these green candies to get me going for most days games but those are morally acceptable illegal PEDs.”
Take Joba out of the rotation, because we know all starters should pitch 7 innings have a 3 era, and be undefeated at 23. Halladay, Beckett, Greinke, and Randy Johnson were lights out when they first hit the mound, RIGHT? How about we trade him for Sonninstine from the Rays? He pitches 6 innings too.
Montero is my boy July 11th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Just think about it though, ITS HIGHLY IMPOSSIBLE BUT THINK..
CC
Halladay
AJ
Pettite
————–
Add in Hughes, Wang or Aceves with Joba in the pen instead of Tomko – DROOL.
This just reminds how much it sucks that Wang is having a lost season.
getting tired of joba’s lazy outings. he seems to be infected with ian kennedy syndrom, meaning however poorly he pitches he thinks he was great, just some bad breaks or hes facing babe ruth a couple times a game & he’s getting beat by ruth .
Don’t tell me it’s attacking the zone that’s his issue. Both Singleton and Flaherty said he WAS attacking the zone today. Something is up with his stuff.
——————————————————
His fastball is too straight…it doesn’t have any movement. He got away with it as a reliever because he was only on the mound for an inning or two. Now hitters get to see him a second and sometimes a third time in a game. They can discipline themselves to lay off the slider & changeup and wait for the straight fastball. Joba needs to find a way to make his fastball tail off…maybe switching to a 2 seam fastball will help. This has happened with plenty of other pitchers before Joba and it will get straightned out. In the meantime hitters are sitting on the fatsball and if he continues to throw a straight one then it won’t matter if he throws it at 91 MPH or 96 MPH. Major league hitters all can hit a straight fastball.
Its a ahsme because we had Jose Veras whose fatsball moved so much that he couldn’t contol it, now we’ve got Joba who throws a straight one. Its too bad they both couldn’t slpit the difference.
By the way, Ron Guidry struggled in his first 3 major league callups because his fastball had no movement. He eventuially got that resolved.
“Just think about it though, ITS HIGHLY IMPOSSIBLE BUT THINK..
CC
Halladay
AJ
Pettite”
buying a championship. Thrilling
as rewarding as playing MLB-Playstation 3, on rookie level
You don’t get extra credit for winning with kids.
It’s also a fallacy . No team wins solely with homgrown players.
It’s a balance between home grown, free agents and smart trades.
Take Montero out of Heyman’s proposed deal and add any 2 prospects not named Phil Hughes, and the Yankees would make that deal.
Don’t know if Toronto would but, the Yankees sure would and that was prior to Chamberlain’s latest, “sun will come up tomorrow” performance.
At this point, he’s slated to pitch against Detroit. After that, all bets are off.
Development mode or not, if he keeps pitching like this, he won’t be in the rotation much longer.
For those of youthat think Joba is a bust, go to http://www.baseballreference.com and look up:
Roy Halladay
Randy Johnson
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Felix Hernandez
And a host of others.
Pitchers, especially ones that are good for a long time, struggle in their first few years. It’s not abnormal.
SJ44 July 11th, 2009 at 11:03 am
You don’t get extra credit for winning with kids.
It’s also a fallacy . No team wins solely with homgrown players.
It’s a balance between home grown, free agents and smart trades.
————
agreed
Rebecca,
look up sandy koufax and bob gibson too. they were horrendous through their first 25+ professional starts
I think with Joba it’s going beyond the fact that he’s 23 and is still learning. His attitude and makeup is starting to play a huge role in his struggles.
He just doesn’t seem willing to learn. He talks and acts he knows more then what he actually knows. I’m not seeing improvement out of him.
Now his stuff (outside of the curve cause he did not have a good one) was fine last night. I just think he a certain attitude right now. And he needs to adjust that.
# Ramey July 11th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Rebecca,
look up sandy koufax and bob gibson too. they were horrendous through their first 25+ professional starts
————
Look up the 99.99% of other pitchers who were horrendous through their first 25+ professional starts.
The only “extra credit” a team gets for winning with some home grown guys is that it gives some validity/credibility to your player development system which in turn makes it easier to use prospects in trades. Other than that it is just a fan pride issue. A win with a home grown pitcher still only counts as one win…
-dennis
The fans love prospects until the struggle.
Then all bets are off.
Sad but true.
The fans love prospects until the struggle.
————
until they struggle.
All that is true Rebecca.
There is also a bigger list of guys who, for a variety of reasons, just never hack it as a starter. Mariano Rivera for example.
We don’t know where Joba is on that scale right now.
One thing we do know, he’s getting worse as as a starter right now and that’s a problem for the Yankees.
The solution is unfortunately not at hand right now. It’s a big problem heading into the break.
The criticisms about Joba are not based on his ERA, his WHIP or his talent. It’s about his apparent inability or unwillingness to adjust, accept coaching or acknowledge responsibility. He has a world of talent, but he is not making any mental progress.
He simply has to go back to pitching inside, pitching inside and pitching inside. He has to throw more than 50 percent fast balls and he has to work much faster from the stretch. I still wouldn’t include him in any deal accept for an All-Star caliber starting pitcher or corner outfielder.
GF,
If we were in a rebuilding mode, our patience would be better, but the Yankees are trying to win a WS championship and Joba’s struggles is putting that goal in jeopardy.
“Giuseppe Franco
July 11th, 2009 at 11:12 am
The fans love prospects until the struggle.
Then all bets are off.
Sad but true”
better then buying a championship
There are struggles GF and then there are legitimate questions about what the proper role is for a prospect. Especially when you see little improvement and a steep dropoff in performance.
Both issues at this time with Joba.
A championship is a championship and I’ll take it anyway I can get one.
Cash is King July 11th, 2009 at 11:15 am
GF,
If we were in a rebuilding mode, our patience would be better, but the Yankees are trying to win a WS championship and Joba’s struggles is putting that goal in jeopardy.
————–
That was the philosophy back in the 80s and I don’t recall this team winning any rings during that time – or trips to the postseason for that matter after the ‘81 season.
Do we really have to assume that every player from post WWII to the steroids era took speed?
Speed kind of sucks by the way. A performance with health and proper rest trumps speed every day of the week.
Vinny,
then you must not have liked the Yankee championships or this off-season because they have been signing FA’s for years.
I remembered what happened in the 80s, but I don’t see Cashman making those same mistakes. Also, what hurt those teams was they didn’t have enough pitching.
SJ: It’s not perhaps a popular explanation but my gut tells me that it has something to do with the shoulder.
If it’s his shoulder then how come nobody is talking or even whispering about it besides uninformed Yankee fans?
Okay, this is probably pretty trite as an observation but it appears that Joba loses concentration as soon as someone gets on base. If this observation was made last night, today, or whatever, at least I have company!
I think that he is so used to being a strike out pitcher that he doesn’t know how to handle pitching with base runners.
That’s my try on the situation. I don’t know what I think about him in the rotation or as relief. I can see both. Always could. Hard to imagine he has lost his skills.
GO YANKEES!
GO KC!!!
Dave and Buster’s Day with my neice and nephew – our annual foray as a reward for their sparkling school work. I just hope that KC wins today as I definitely don’t want to have to hear the roar of the bar crowd if the opposite happens. I won’t really know about the Yanks since we definitely don’t get those games televised in bars here!
SJ —
It makes no sense to say Mariano Rivera “couldn’t hack it as s starter.” He made all of ten starts with the Yankees, which is hardly enough evidence. In 1994 he made 22 starts in the minors and averaged six innings and a 3.09 ERA
In 1995 his ERA was 2.10 all as a starter when he was called up.
No, we don’t know what kind of starter Joba will be, but we’ll also never know what Mariano would have been. He just might have been able to hack it.
SJ44, you also don’t give up on your prospect after 20 starts. CC first 15 starts he was 7-3 with an era of 4.79, but he avg. 5 1/3 per start. He only went into the 7th twice but didn’t record an out. Before you get all excited about the wins there are a few where he pitched 5 inning and gave up 4 runs. So you would have given up on him? sent him to the pen. 2002 he was 6-6 with an era of 4.7. Should Joba pitch better? yes. take out him no.
arguably the 3 best hitters of the last 10 – 15 years (not including manny)have been arod, pujols and bonds – total WS wins between them? 1 (and even that one was lucky) –
as much as i’d like to think montero may become as good as them (though unlikely)teams 99 times out of 100 win world series because of pitching….Halladay is a pitcher and probably one of the best 3 in baseball…
look at what the yankees have done with arod here – nothing – this isn’t a knock on arod but a point that pitching wins world series….if you have to trade montero to get halladay and become that much closer to a world series titleevery year for the next 4 years then you have to do it…
if montero goes on to win 5 mvp awards (very unlikely) but the yankees win 2 out of the next 4 WS with halladay then it was worth it…..
SJ44:
your point is taken.
however, after a certain point, it amounts to “enough is enough”
we signed CC Sabathia, AJ Burnett, and Mark Texeria in the same off-season. If we can’t supplement these players with existing superstars like Alex Rodriguez, Jeter, Posada, Rivera, and our own young players. Then we don’t deserve to win.
when sigining FA’s/aquiring superstar players, after a certain point it becomes diminishing returns. SEE: the 1980’s-Steinbrenner years, and the Randy Johnson/Sheffield/Kevin Brown/all-star at every position era
SJ44 July 11th, 2009 at 11:16 am
There are struggles GF and then there are legitimate questions about what the proper role is for a prospect. Especially when you see little improvement and a steep dropoff in performance.
Both issues at this time with Joba.
————–
SJ,
Look, I respect your opinion and in fact I agree with you 90% of the time.
But it is my opinion that you too often get overly frustrated and something gets stuck in your craw when someone struggles and I think you tend to go way overboard (Cano, Melky, Kennedy, Gardner, Joba, Hughes, etc, etc.).
You said very similar things back in May regarding Hughes. I didn’t agree with you back then about him and I don’t agree with you now about Joba.
I just hope for the Yanks’ sake that Joba has a couple of good starts after the break and he builds on them going forward.
I don’t care if he struggles the rest of the season. He’s not to be moved back to the pen whether in the Bronx or Scranton.
Hughes didn’t win a game all season in 2008 and was far worse than Joba at the big league level. That’s not even debatable.
But he went into the offseason and battled his way back. He was a completely different pitcher in ST.
Maybe some humility and a talk with his dad will put the fire back in him.
We’ll essentially have to agree to disagree on this issue because neither of us are likely to change our minds.
Last night’s game was also a result of Aceves’ short start. The bullpen was worked hard because of it, that makes Joba’s short start (again) even tougher.
I think Joba could work it out eventually, but how does that effect the team for the next few years?
Rebecca points out that there are great starters who struggled through their earlier starts. While true there are also some who never get it going. Heck, just think of the Bird. He was very good then lost it all in a short period of time.
Joba seems to have some mental issue, and that along with his not responding to what others are telling him could make it years before he gets it together. The Jays might accept that, but I don’t think the Yankees will be that patient. Especially with Wang’s problems compounding it.
sab July 11th, 2009 at 11:25 am
arguably the 3 best hitters of the last 10 – 15 years (not including manny)have been arod, pujols and bonds – total WS wins between them? 1 (and even that one was lucky) –
as much as i’d like to think montero may become as good as them (though unlikely)teams 99 times out of 100 win world series because of pitching….Halladay is a pitcher and probably one of the best 3 in baseball…
look at what the yankees have done with arod here – nothing – this isn’t a knock on arod but a point that pitching wins world series….if you have to trade montero to get halladay and become that much closer to a world series titleevery year for the next 4 years then you have to do it…
———
Precisely. It would be one painful pill to swallow but I’d trade Montero if Toronto absolutely insisted on him for Halladay. Then I’d watch Halladay help the Yankees win 2 or 3 rings and forget all about Montero the same way the Sox forgot about Hanley. I don’t think there’s a Sox fan in the world that would trade the 2007 WS ring back for Hanley Ramirez.
Vinny-b —-
The key difference between then and now is the Yankees are pursuing guys in their prime. If you are going to invest heavily in starting pitching you don’t take aging relics like Johnson and Brown. A 32-year-old starter has 4-5 prime years ahead of him if he takes care of himself.
Johnson was 40 when the Yankees got him and Brown was 39. Burnett and Halladay are both 32. That’s a huge difference.
Cash is King July 11th, 2009 at 11:19 am
I remembered what happened in the 80s, but I don’t see Cashman making those same mistakes. Also, what hurt those teams was they didn’t have enough pitching.
————-
They didn’t have enough pitching because they didn’t have the stomach to develop them.
Doug Drabek, Jose Rijo, Al Leiter, etc, etc.
All guys traded away when they were youngsters.
It’s 30 starts now and he’s getting worse and not better.
It’s not out of bounds to wonder where ge best fits.
If it’s as a starter, then he needs to go to Scranton and start for awhile because 4+ inning starts don’t cut it at the ML level regardless of what stage you are in your development.
I think folks are being naive if you think he’s staying in the rotation if he continues pitching like this.
Doug Drabek, Jose Rijo, Al Leiter, etc, etc.
All guys traded away when they were youngsters.
———-
But they were traded for Jesse Barfield, not Roy Halladay.
bret the hitman – if you’re ever in miami i’ll buy you a beer –
it seems yankee fans fall in love with these minor leaguers (joba, hughes kennedy 2 years ago and montero now) but forget to see the bigger picture that montero may never be the player everyone thinks he is – if he becomes that player so be it – if halladay helps the yankees win 2 WS then it was all worth it – montero will NOT help the yankees win the WS in the next 3 years (unless traded for halladay) – i’ll take that chance for a couple of WS wins now..
Halladay and Wells to SF. SF has the money (Wells Contract and they need a bat)and the prospects in the minors. And in 1 move become the NL Champs.
Linsecum
Halladay
Cain
Johnson
Zito
Whoa
I understand the sentiment about winning it all being worth whatever the price is, but I don’t agree. Halladay doesn’t guarantee anything and there are some guys that whould not be part of that deal.
Would you send Toronto Joba, Hughes, Jackson, Montrero, Coke, Tomine, Pena, Dunn, Betances, Brackman and Robertson? Of course not. So the line has to be drawn somewhere.
To me the line is drawn at Hughes and Montero… but if Toronto offered Halladay straight up for either one I would probably erase the line.
It’s funny how all of a sudden Hughes is untouchable while Joba should be the guy to go in a Halladay trade. Go back a few montha it would be the other way around. Yankee fans are so fickle.LOL. I love these kids and am willing to watch them stumble a few times before they get it right. I haven’t seen two young pitchers of their caliber come down the pike for this team in a long time. Just have faith and patience people. In due time these kids will reward you.
Sab,
I think some fans are scarred by all the years when this organization neglected the minor leagues. Things are different now. We have a surplus of young talent so these trades won’t devastate the team for decades to come. The opposite may be true. The right kind of trade here for Halladay could give this team instant results.
Just imagine Halladay in Game 1, CC in Game 2 and AJ in Game 3.
Like I said, I’d forget all about Jesus Montero when they’re cracking open champagne.
sab:
For all the argument that Pujols et al haven’t won a World Series (and didn’t Pujols win in 2006, anyway?), I can counter.
The Braves had Maddux/Smoltz/Glavine for what, 10, 15 years?
That team won one World Series.
Just one.
And it lost to the Yankees twice.
Zduriencik got 2 of KC’s better minor league arms for Betencourt?
Cashman’s gonna have to be careful if he deals with this guy.
Apparently he has the Jedi thing going on.
“Also, why the early game thread?”
============
Pete padding his stats.
“Got so and so hits on my game threads…”
But the thread is posted 5 hours before gametime!
Tidrow —-
Things change my man!
I would have traded either one of them for Halladay in March and would probably trade either one of them for him now… but if it’s my choice, Hughes has shown me more in terms of long term productivity with his make up and professionalism while Joba has raised more questions than he has answered.
You are right about impatience… but without impatience there would be far fewer fans and there would be no such thing as Sports Blogs or Sports Talk Radio.
I think the Yankees should be very protective of their young assets, but right now I believe Montero and Hughes should top that list followed by Joba, Austin Jackson and Zac McAllister. No way I’d include more than one of them in any trade.
86w183 – i agree that halladay doesn’t guarantee anything – but what does montero guarantee you? so he’ll be on baseball tonight every night with his homeruns – but does he guarantee you anything – i loved mattingly but how many times did they win with him?
pitching wins ws – and halladay is a top 3 pitcher – montero could hit 80 homeruns a year and without pitching the yankees would lose 15 – 12 every night …
i’d hate to lose him but as bret said – i’d forget all about him on October 28th (or whenever) if the yankees won the WS the night before….
Killebrew hit .256. Wonder if A-Rod is a .300 hitter without PEDs? At least the next guy he passes is another fraud. Where would A-Rod be if he was clean? 300 homers?
That’s great about bringing up Roy Halladay, Randy Johnson and Josh Beckett when talking about Joba… But look at the other side of the equations.. THE TEAM. The Blue Jays sucked, The Expos sucked, The Marlins sucked. We’re a game out of 1st place.
Also Roy Halladay threw a complete game shutout in his 2nd major league start. Stop bringing him up and trying to compare him to Joba. Joba is more like Kei Igawa than he is Roy Halladay.
Rebecca -
That is the argument that more than pitching, more than offense, what a team needs is balance. And luck!
“The Yankees actually do need Halladay.”
Need is too strong of a word. This team is already a lock for the playoffs. How greedy are you people?
“Killebrew thinking he was half the player that Arod is today.”
Killebrew was a tremendous offensive player. OPS+ of 143 for his career (Arod’s is 147), had a good strikeout rate for a power hitter and walked nearly as much as he struck out (Arod strikes out 1.6 times for every walk). He won an MVP and was Top 4 five other times.
Definitely not Arod, but he’s not to be mocked. He was one of the greats.
Those arms KC gave up for Betancourt might be among their better ones, but they aren’t anything special. Cortes, the supposed top guy is 6-6, 3.92 with almost as many walks as strikeouts.
“Joba is more like Kei Igawa than he is Roy Halladay”
I was thinking more like Daniel Cabrera than Halladay.
I think folks are being naive if you think he’s staying in the rotation if he continues pitching like this.
=============
He’d better not stay in the rotation if he keeps pitching like last night and nearly every game this season. But if it’s his mechanics and conditioning that are out of whack, he should go to Scranton and work on those things.
People will get excited because he will probably excel at getting AAA hitters out, but the Yanks will have to look beyond his AAA ERA and Ks before they bring him up again.
The same thing happened with Hughes after he was recovering from his hamstring injury. I saw him at Scranton his last start before he came back and even though his line was decent, I didn’t think he pitched well, the hitters were getting themselves out, swinging away in bad counts on pitches out of the zone. That happens less at the ML level.
It’s all speculation, but I think Joba needs some work in the minors. Worry less about his replacement now and more about his future.
WHat did I miss last night? I watched the game, I thought Melancon pitched well. THrew strikes.. He really gave up the 2 runs after the figgans triple, between to bloops.. he saved Joba in the 5th. The guy threw strikes….
You telling me Melancon today is not a better pitcher and more of an asset to the team then TOmko??? No friggin way.
Tomko and Ransom are last months berroa and veras… Ransom should have a short leash and a few more games of negative production should find him DFA’d and TOmko who the hell knows why he is on the team now.
The anaheim guns had Joba with plenty of velocity, had him at 97 a time or 2, 95 many pitches… He is just clueless when it comes to pitch selection, he loves to throw the slider off the plate and try to get people to chase, how can his fastball presently not be enough to be competitive???
“Also Roy Halladay threw a complete game shutout in his 2nd major league start. Stop bringing him up and trying to compare him to Joba. Joba is more like Kei Igawa than he is Roy Halladay.”
That was a Roy Halladay w/ no restrictions and stop talking like an idiot b/c Doc wasn’t that good. This is him @ 23 yrs. old, same age as Joba.
http://www.baseball-reference......;year=2000
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
July 11th, 2009 at 11:38 am
sab:
For all the argument that Pujols et al haven’t won a World Series (and didn’t Pujols win in 2006, anyway?), I can counter.
The Braves had Maddux/Smoltz/Glavine for what, 10, 15 years?
That team won one World Series.
Just one.
And it lost to the Yankees twice.
==========================================================
Rebecca – why do you have to hit me with logic – you must be a lawyer..
the only thing i can say about that (and believe i’ve run that reasoning through my mind alot)is
1) the yankees had just as good pitching as the braves – and probably better hitting..
2) bobby cox is probably a great manager to play for but not very good at actually managing (similar to davey johnson with those mets teams in the 80’s)
3) how good were the other 2 pitchers they had in those years and how good was the bullpen?
4) in the playoffs the better teams don’t always win – once you get in anyone can win (the cardinals in 2005 are a great example)
sorry thats all i got – but i’d take my chances with halladay, CC and AJ starting the first 3 and halladay and cc the last 2 games of the WS…
This whole thing shouldn’t be about Joba. It should be about the 2009 New York Yankees. Hughes being sent to the pen wasn’t about Hughes, it was about the 2009 New York Yankees. Joba isn’t cutting it. He’s not improving. It’s the same thing every start. I hope they go out and try and pick someone up.. Send this guy to the minors to get his “innings” and then bring him up later to stick in the pen.
E-Gawa since you prbly didn’t see it the first time I’ll post it again for your blind ass
DOC HALLADAY @ 23 YRS. OF AGE
http://www.baseball-reference......;year=2000
Say something.
“Rebecca – why do you have to hit me with logic – you must be a lawyer..”
Three years of mock trial plus four of history undergrad and one of history grad. You learn how to argue.
“the only thing i can say about that (and believe i’ve run that reasoning through my mind alot)is
1) the yankees had just as good pitching as the braves – and probably better hitting..
2) bobby cox is probably a great manager to play for but not very good at actually managing (similar to davey johnson with those mets teams in the 80’s)
3) how good were the other 2 pitchers they had in those years and how good was the bullpen?
4) in the playoffs the better teams don’t always win – once you get in anyone can win (the cardinals in 2005 are a great example)
sorry thats all i got – but i’d take my chances with halladay, CC and AJ starting the first 3 and halladay and cc the last 2 games of the WS…”"
You make some good points there–the Yankees certainly had the better bullpen and, honestly, that’s kind of what those World Series came down to.
Another point that’s been on my mind: The Cardinals won in 2006 in part because the ALDS is a five game series. It NEEDS to be a seven game series; otherwise all your team needs is the better 1-2 punch!
e gawa is the world is coming to the end guy all the time. I would be for sending Joba down to figure things out if they had other viable options. Guys like egawa do not comprehend that term other viable options.. they just talk about getting rid of someone but the yanks need solutions, not feel godd moves.
If Joba keeps this up or g-d forbid pitches worse then the Yanks may have no choice but they are not there yet. Igawa, Jason Johnson, are not options of a winning team. for the Nats the yare options…
Brandon,
Roy Halladay at 23 was the worst year in his career. It was so bad that he went back to the minors the next season to have his mechanics reworked.
I think you prove my point comparing the two.
Something has to give with Joba. The teachability/accountability problems and deteriorated standing with veteran teammates and staff are as troubling as the poor pitching on the field. That goes back to his attitude, and that’s not good. For someone who by all accounts worked hard to make it into baseball, it’s bad news if Joba can’t/won’t accept the guidance of his baseball elders. And as SJ44 keeps saying, he’s living on borrowed time as a starter, and that time may be up. As the saying goes, you’re either part of the solution or part of the problem . . .
What pisses me off about posters like E-gawa is you provide facts and when you do they scamper off like a little sissy that they are, only to bring up the same crap later hoping you don’t remember to call them out on it.
“Brandon,
Roy Halladay at 23 was the worst year in his career. It was so bad that he went back to the minors the next season to have his mechanics reworked.
I think you prove my point comparing the two.”
And….according to you you’d stick Doc in the BP if you had him, hence there wouldn’t be a valueable SP like Doc Halladay under your regime.
I agree with Joba’s problem being between the ears.. SO the Yanks must find a soltuion if that means brow beating him, having some vets read him the riot act, getting him to increase his workouts, etc..
Sending him down today, does not help the yanks. May there be come a time sooner vs later when thye must send him down? SUre but they are not there yet and igawa and others will only make things worse not better…………………..
Joba: “At the end of the day, we have the second half (of the season) to get better. You can’t change the past.”
Wrong. The second half is when you ARE better. May and June is when you get better.
Hey Joba, you see any corn stalks growing around? You’re not in Nebraska anymore.
And while you can’t change the past, you also can’t live in it.
Take away those 20+ innings from 2007 and you’re just another struggling young pitcher.
You’ve got God given talent kid. It’s up to you to utilize it.
Mrs. Kekich, the Yankees are NOT a lock for the playoffs by any means.
SJ, it’s clear the Yankees have major issues with the rotation and now the pen, with Bruney frankly needing to be reduced to garbage time (I certainly don’t trust him in a close game – I don’t blame Joe for trying to get him back on the beam, but the Yanks can’t afford to have him blow anymore games). I think they need another SP and another arm fro the pen. What do you think?
It’s scary to have a rotation of 2 reliable starters and question marks everywhere else.
GF, I know you love Joba, but he is killing this team. There’s no doubt that people were all over Hughes last year and this……BUT, he lost his job over his performance. Granted, he was hurt for most of last year, but had he not been, I’m sure he would have been sent down to AAA. When he came back, it was only as a September call-up – he was not handed his rotation spot back and he was not given one this year. Phil, in fact, was publicly called out by one of his teammates – that’s rather humiliating, don’t you think? Joba should be treated no differently than Hughes.
E-gawa, The blue Jay finished 3rd in the AL east 2 games over .500 the when Halladay was 23 in 2000 era over 10. Better record then they have now. Marlins were 4 games under .500 in 2002 Beckett’s 2nd year. And the 1988 Expos were .500 Randy was a rookie at 26 not 23 like Joba Seattle stunk in 2000 but the were also starting a 20 year old CF. John also lead the league in walks with 120 and followed it up with 152 and 144 the neat 2 years. So Joba’s team right now is 1 game back, that makes him a better pitcher than these 3? Because his team is better?
Brandon:
Aside from the fact that Halladay had a bad year at 23, what fact did you offer? You want a real fact? Most guys that bad at 23 never come close to being as good as Halladay ended up being.
You seem to be suggestng that because Halladay was bad at 23, it’s OK for Joba for be bad and he’ll be fine. Well that’s a 50/50 proposition at best. I’d take my chances on 23 year olds like Gallardo, Hernandez and Cueto to be ace-level guys before I would Joba.
Being good at 23 > Being Joba at 23.
“What pisses me off about posters like E-gawa is you provide facts and when you do they scamper off like a little sissy that they are, only to bring up the same crap later hoping you don’t remember to call them out on it.”
You don’t even post facts. You post half-truths. Yes at 23 you can compare Halladay to Joba but trying reading up on Roy Halladay some day. Try learning that he agreed to be sent to the minors to have his mechanics reworked. Try learning after what year that was. Try learning something instead of trying to be an internet tough guy.
egawa again is clueless. halladay when he was 23 was on a terrible team, terrible teams do not need to win now. the ynaks need to win now, so how they handle joba is different.
why is this hard to see??? If joba was on the nats they would send him down to figure things out or allow him to flounder until he was smart enough to figure it out, the yanks are not the nats…
by simply getting rid of tomko and having abeledajo or someone else in the pen helps the team in all situations except if the starter goes under 5 innings because the only thing of value tomko can give you is get shelled but throw 3 or 4 innings.. that to me is not really an asset….
last nights loss was a terrible loss mainly because they should have won..they have had a bunch of these during the year, most teams do…..
“You seem to be suggestng that because Halladay was bad at 23, it’s OK for Joba for be bad and he’ll be fine. Well that’s a 50/50 proposition at best. I’d take my chances on 23 year olds like Gallardo, Hernandez and Cueto to be ace-level guys before I would Joba.
Being good at 23 > Being Joba at 23.”
How many good young Latin pitchers do we see flame out?
The idea is to get Joba the longest, most effective career possible and not to sacrifice absolutley everything for just one year.
The worst part about the Joba dilemma isn’t just his pitching. His attitude is boarding on delusion. I just watched the Post Game Plus video on YesNetwork.com and the guy is clueless. “I threw the pitch I wanted to throw. They hit my pitch. Gotta tip your cap”. This guy doesn’t need a pitching coach, he needs a psychiatrist. I’ve never seen someone so out of touch with their own performance before. Joba needs to stop believing the hype and start living up to it.
Betsy but Yussse last yr. killed and demolished this BP worse than Jobber. With Yusssse he couldn’t even get a W remember ? This isn’t the case w/ Jobber, he isn’t more experienced, he’s basically learning what he should be learning in AAA. That’s all that is going on. These are the bumps you take w/ an arm like him.
Mrs. Kekich
July 11th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Killebrew hit .256. Wonder if A-Rod is a .300 hitter without PEDs? At least the next guy he passes is another fraud. Where would A-Rod be if he was clean? 300 homers?
————————————————————
Don’t be stupid. If the steroids added 10% to Rodriguez’ totals over those three years, or anybody else, that would be stretching it.
How many home runs would those players from that era that popped speed in order to play have hit without them?
“You don’t even post facts. You post half-truths. Yes at 23 you can compare Halladay to Joba but trying reading up on Roy Halladay some day. Try learning that he agreed to be sent to the minors to have his mechanics reworked. Try learning after what year that was. Try learning something instead of trying to be an internet tough guy.”
Everyone knows that clown.
the worst part about Joba’s circimstances is the delusional aspect of his post game interviews, that is absolutely the point.
if you have no idea there is a problem how the hell can you fix it???That is the problem all, not that he is getting shelled, it is that he is not even smart enough to know he is getting shelled………….
DUH
“How many good young Latin pitchers do we see flame out?”
Bout the same percentage of young non-Latin pitchers.
Ton Loc,
You’re misreading what I’m saying. I was pointing how bad were that they were on. Those teams could afford to develop.
“2) bobby cox is probably a great manager to play for but not very good at actually managing (similar to davey johnson with those mets teams in the 80’s)”
I think I would have to disagree with that one. I am sure Cox made some bad moves(like every manager in history), and may have cost the Braves a playoff game or two, but of all the reasons they didn’t win more WS, his managing is pretty close to the bottom of the list, IMO.
What do you guys think SF would ask for Jonathan Sanchez GB7 ?
“What do you guys think SF would ask for Jonathan Sanchez”
A lot more today than two days ago!
“How many home runs would those players from that era that popped speed in order to play have hit without them?”
Can’t that same question be applied to Arod? Not like greenies haven’t been part of the game for the past 25 years.
“And….according to you you’d stick Doc in the BP if you had him, hence there wouldn’t be a valueable SP like Doc Halladay under your regime.”
And…. according to you you’d have left Doc the way he was on the major league level to continue to pitch OK. Instead of pitching like he is now as one of the best in baseball.
“A lot more today than two days ago!”
His stock ain’t that high. No hitter yes, but many ppl know what his deal is. I wonder if he could survive as a #4 or 5 in the AL.
http://www.fannation.com/truth.....?eref=sihp
Tha Yanks are never out of it.
“What do you guys think SF would ask for Jonathan Sanchez GB7 ?”
Wonder whether they can even consider moving him now with Johnson on the shelf for a couple months. They’d need a guy who can hit in the majors now…if they feel they can deal him at this point.
Brandon, I’m not saying Phil wasn’t terrible (though I think he was hurt before he was actually diagnosed). That doesn’t mean Joba gets a free pass. Forget last year – we’re talking this year and Joba is killing the team. I’m not suggesting we go out and shoot the kid, I’m suggesting that Joba get the same treatment Ian and Phil were given. SJ has said everything I wanted to say and better than I could say it. He’s by no means the only problem on the team – the 5th spot is up in the air (this pen needs Aceves back there – please), Andy is unreliable (though most times he can at least battle through 5 or 6 on sheer guts) and Bruney looks awful (I think he’s better than this – still think the Yankees erred badly by giving him only 1 rehab outing). However, he is a problem – there’s no doubt about it.
“And…. according to you you’d have left Doc the way he was on the major league level to continue to pitch OK. Instead of pitching like he is now as one of the best in baseball.”
No I’ve never said that. Your the one quick to yank the cord on him and leave him in the BP, my position has been comparing his struggles to a young Doc. It’s learning the ML level, that’s what he’s going through, he should be in AAA learning this but the team isn’t in that position to make it.
Betsy July 11th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
GF, I know you love Joba, but he is killing this team. There’s no doubt that people were all over Hughes last year and this……BUT, he lost his job over his performance. Granted, he was hurt for most of last year, but had he not been, I’m sure he would have been sent down to AAA. When he came back, it was only as a September call-up – he was not handed his rotation spot back and he was not given one this year. Phil, in fact, was publicly called out by one of his teammates – that’s rather humiliating, don’t you think? Joba should be treated no differently than Hughes.
—————-
If Joba was killing the team that badly, they wouldn’t be 12-6 in games he’s started this season.
Does he need a kick in the ass? Sure he does.
Does he need to start eating more innings? Sure he does.
But all this talk about trading the guy and moving him to the pen because he supposedly can’t be starter is completely nonsense.
The vast majority of Yankee fans jump ship and turn on anyone who has the gall to struggle; kids (Hughes and Joba), new vets (Teixeira), future Hall of Famers (Mo perhaps A-Rod) – you name it.
I don’t get caught up in that crap. I guess by nature I’m much more patient than most Yankee fans because I remember the 1980s all too well and I don’t want to see that happen again.
But my current stance on Joba is no different than my stance on Hughes last season or in May.
Giving up on these kids or changing their long term roles at such a young age is stupid and completely counter-productive.
And the fact of the matter is that the Yanks are already three starters short. They aren’t going to be four starters short by moving Joba out of the rotation or sending back to Scranton.
Sergio Mitre is probably going to their fifth starter for a little while after the break. And he’s their BEST option from Scranton right now. How scary is that?
Bad Joba is no worse than Sergio Mitre, Josh Towers, or Kei Igawa.
I don’t think it’s going to happen, but it might not hurt to try Zack McAllister. No, he’s not on the 40-man roster but I can’t see those others guys as better options at this point.
from a Yes contributor…
As the Yankees veered toward a 10-6 loss to the Angels on Friday night after their starter Joba Chamberlain blew a four-run lead, Singleton recalled that conversation, mentioning that the 23-year-old righty had the highest unearned run average in the Yankees starting rotation.
Chamberlain’s problems began with a thorny 29-pitch second inning in which he issued a walk, wild pitch and allowed two hits to give up his first run of the game. He’d had trouble putting away batters from the beginning of that frame, when the first Angels hitter at the plate, outfielder Juan Rivera, singled to center after a five-pitch at-bat. Joba then managed to induce a flyball out to first baseman Kendry Morales in two pitches. But he would issue a five-pitch walk to the next batter while Rivera took second on the wild pitch. Gary Matthews would then single and score Rivera after an eight-pitch at-bat. Two batters and nine pitches later, Chamberlain would at last notch his third out of the inning and leave the mound relatively unscathed, having given up only the one earned run.
But, his remaining 3 1/3 innings were a struggle against an Angels lineup that was without its key offensive players, the injured Torii Hunter and Vladimir Guerrero. The box score shows Chamberlain went through a scoreless third inning in 14 pitches, allowing only a single to infield Maicer Itsuris. It does not show that his first recorded out came on a hard-hit liner by Chone Figgins that fortunately wound up in Robinson Cano’s glove. It does not show that his second out was a flyball off the bat of Bobby Abreu that nearly went into the stands for a two-run homer. It does not show that the score could easily have been 4-3, or even 4-4 before Chamberlain left the mound.
It also doesn’t reveal that only an exceptional inning-ending play by Cano saved two runs from scoring in the fourth inning.
Of course, box scores are often deceptive. All pitchers rely on solid fielding and a little luck to make their final lines look better than they otherwise might be. But the good ones capitalize on the defensive plays behind them, the line drives that rocket directly into a fielder’s glove. The good ones know how to win.
In the fourth inning of Friday night’s game, Chamberlain crumbled over the course of throwing 26 pitches. After he surrendered a run on a single to Figgins, who would then steal second, there would be another stolen base behind him, and later a throwing error by Alex Rodriguez that put two men on base with one out.
As Kendry Morales prepared to take the mound, manager Joe Girardi left the dugout to encourage Chamberlain.
“Just get the hitter,” Girardi said. “Let’s make sure we concentrate on the hitter and not get caught up with anything else.”
Chamberlain’s next pitch was a hanging curveball that left the park to tie the score at 5-5. A volley of celebratory home-run fireworks later, Angels designated hitter Mike Napoli doubled off Chamberlain, who’d fallen behind him 2-0 in the count. That ended Chamberlain’s outing as he was replaced by Scranton call-up Mark Melancon and the Yankees’ night continued to unravel.
This is how Chamberlain evaluated his performance after the loss: “I’ve come up against some good ballclubs. There’s really nothing else to say. I threw all four pitches for strikes. They just hit the mistakes. That’s what they’re supposed to do.”
Chamberlain would contend that he made “great” pitches throughout the game, including the one that Figgins hit for a leadoff single in the fifth. “It was my pitch that he hit, and you gotta tip your cap to him,” he said.
And the pitch Morales knocked out to center for his mammoth home run?
“Kendry swung the bat well. It was a curveball for a strike, a little up, but it was something we felt confident in throwing it, and he put a good swing on it.”
We felt confident? Chamberlain’s use of the first-person plural was presumably meant to refer to himself and his battery mate, catcher Jose Molina. But it wasn’t Molina who left that hanger over the plate.
Asked if he thought his pitching in that disastrous fifth was different than it had been in preceding innings, Chamberlain replied in the negative. “Not at all,” he said, noting only that the slider Abreu nearly hit for a homer in the third was also “a little up.” A moment later, he would insist to reporters that he’d pitched well overall. “Other than that we were in and out all day, up and down, so it was good,” he said.
Chamberlain would talk about putting the game behind him, learning from his mistakes, continuing to grow. It is a familiar run of baseball clichés that he has readily used when pressed about his struggles, even as he’s become visibly ruffled by suggestions that his performance this season has been disappointing.
And as to those mistakes — has he learned from them?
Chamberlain has only one win in April, one in May, and two in June. Chamberlain allowed 12 walks and 24 hits over the 22 1/2 innings he pitched in May, averaging four innings and change per game over his starts. Over his six June starts Chamberlain gave up 15 walks and 33 hits while averaging 5.8 innings per game. In July, as his ERA has climbed above 4.00, he’s not yet gotten past the fifth inning in either of his two starts.
More significantly, Chamberlain’s mound appearances have taken on an awful sameness characterized by his falling behind batters to rack up high pitch counts, failing to recover from errors committed behind him, and ultimately leaving games to be decided by the Yankee bullpen while contributing to its depletion.
“At the end of the day, we got the second half to get better,” he said near the conclusion of his post-game interview.
We, again. The Yankees began Friday night tied with the Red Sox for first place in their division. They had gone 7-2 in the month of July for a .778 winning percentage, and were a season-high 17 games over .500.
That’s a team that’s collectively done pretty darned well of late.
Perhaps, then, Chamberlain ought to start using the singular “I” when speaking of his own failures. There is something insufferable about his inability to take responsibility for them.
“This is not a guy that’s been horrible. Going into tonight he had an ERA of around four,” manager Joe Girardi would say in Chamberlain’s defense after the game. Girardi will always take pains to avoid publicly embarrassing his players.
But Chamberlain’s ERA has been a transparent mask for his deficiencies. Simply put, the numbers lie in his case. And lie dramatically.
The equity Chamberlain once gained as a reliever is long since spent with Yankee fans. Gone are the days of Chamberlain throwing at speeds in the high 90 mile-per-hour range. His velocity is now average, his fastballs lack movement, and the speed differential between his fastball and breaking pitches has leveled off to make the latter less effective. For fans, watching him pitch is a nerve-wracking, arduous test of patience. One can only surmise what it must be like for his manager and teammates.
Unfortunately Chien-Ming Wang’s injury, just as he showed signs of a return to his past winning form, has complicated matters for the Yankees. Already short a starter, they cannot now remove Chamberlain from the rotation, even should they be so inclined.
So, what can be done?
For one thing, the Yankee organization, from the front office to his coaches, must hold Chamberlain accountable for his subpar and poor performances. It can only be hoped that Chamberlain’s self-assessments reflect a young ballplayer’s pride and bravado speaking before throngs of reporters and cameras, and not a real and profound blindness to his own shortcomings. If Chamberlain truly believes he’s been getting better, something is disturbingly wrong with his perspective.
This should not be considered an indictment of Joba Chamberlain, but a reasoned appeal to the Yankee organization. They must evaluate what they have with him over the long and short term, and then decide how to proceed moving on. Because there are undeniable signs that Chamberlain is not at all what they once thought they had, and may be rapidly turning into something they cannot live with.
Which is to say, a liability. These comments are not reactionary or flippant why is he off base?? Joba has no clue, he should be called clueless Joba. I cringe when he pitches.. Watching him is painful, ardorous, and his post game delusions make Ian Kennedy seem like Johnny Damon……….
stop coddling the kid………
If the Jays are looking to dump salary, the only team they are talking to are the Yankees.
E-gawa,
Point taken, but the yankees also have to develop young talent as well, if not now when. We are always the the chase. Then they should just sign F/A and forget the minors. Or just use the minors for the bullpen? If you’re going to start rookies you’re going to have growing pains, if you don’t want the pain sign veterns and pray they are not past their time, Johnson, Brown or get hurt Pavano Igawa.
Don’t be stupid. If the steroids added 10% to Rodriguez’ totals over those three years, or anybody else, that would be stretching it.
==============
Agreed, the figure is probably less than 5 percent.
I like what somebody else posted regarding that statement.
Killebrew was probably thinking “Damn, wonder if I could hit so many HRs off of juiced pitchers…”
“Wonder whether they can even consider moving him now with Johnson on the shelf for a couple months. They’d need a guy who can hit in the majors now…if they feel they can deal him at this point.”
Damn that Nady.
Brandon… I’M AWESOME !
July 11th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
What do you guys think SF would ask for Jonathan Sanchez GB7 ?
————————————————————
More than he’s worth. NYY already has one just like him in Chamberlain.
the Yankees know the short comings of the team, whether or not they go out and do something about it is another thing.
How many TV commercials and endorsements do you think Halladay had when he was struggling at 23? How many “Halladay Rules” t-shirts were sold etc. etc. ?
Not saying that it’s Joba’s fault that he’s been so successful commercially.
But right now his commercial success is far greater than his actual success.
I’m sure it plays a part on why his failures don’t seem to be computing in his mind.
Roy Halladay & Alex Rios for….
Brandon,
lol BS.
You didn’t even know about Halladays struggles until a few mins ago. lol
Bronx Jeers,
Don’t forget the Joba action figure!
E-gawa and Brandon need a virtual hug.
Enough with all the “internet toughness”!!
joba so succesful stuff is old and not accurate.
joba was phenomenal for 40 innings..
think of that 40 friggin innings….that is nothing………………..Mo is phenomenal for 80 innings a year for about 13 of them..
Joba was a mega stud for 40 innings that is it………………look it up……
How are the Yankees short three starters?
Last I knew they were short one.
If Killebrew thinks about it at all, he’s probably thinking he could have hit 600+ if he’d had access to steroids. Why do we assume players from the past are innocent just because they didn’t have the advantages of today? They were looking for every edge just like modern players.
Hallday, Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte = 27 World Championships.
“If the Jays are looking to dump salary, the only team they are talking to are the Yankees.”
Not even the Yankees are stupid enough to take Wells contract.
Picture this you lose Jackson, Joba or Hughes + McAllister + Cisco + Pena
The next 4-5 yrs. your looking to sign a longterm CF, another 4-5 100 + mil for a SP, another 50 + mil for a RP plus Wells’ contract
The swing is 200 + mil added on payroll, that’s not including another 50 + mil for a COF. This team HAS A BUDGET.
It’s a joke to compare Joba to Roy Halladay. Halladay is one of the hardest working, competitive, most accountable guys out there. For every hotshot who struggled at a young age that becomes a Halladay, there are ten that become Todd Van Poppel. Just because someone is young and talented, doesn’t mean they’ll naturally learn and figure it out because that’s not true. It depends on how much the player wants it, how hard they’re willing to work for it, and a matter of luck and circumstance.
“You didn’t even know about Halladays struggles until a few mins ago. lol”
I’ve known that for the las 3 yrs. you moron even GB7 and SJ and CB were the first to remind me a fill me in w/ details about Doc and his early struggles last season. So yeh I knew.
BTW
ME >>>>>> YOU
Fan Interference July 11th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Roy Halladay & Alex Rios for….
———————————-
Cody,Joba,Swish & Bruney
Stultus Magnus
July 11th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Don’t be stupid. If the steroids added 10% to Rodriguez’ totals over those three years, or anybody else, that would be stretching it.
==============
Agreed, the figure is probably less than 5 percent.
I like what somebody else posted regarding that statement.
Killebrew was probably thinking “Damn, wonder if I could hit so many HRs off of juiced pitchers…”
————————————————————
As I said, 10% would be really stretching things, but, nobody could argue that. Over those three Texas years, that’s about 15 extra homers.
I’ve read some of the media “thinkers” where they were talking about the steroids allowed Rodriguez to play in the Texas sun. That’s a load of crap. Go back and look at the number of games that Jim Sunberg caught down there in the 70s and 80s. 145 games a year for 6 years and 2 years over 150. I’ve never heard anybody accuse Sunberg of taking anything.
TOR may want to be rid of Wells, but the Yankees would be fools to take him. His contract is ridiculous and his performance doesn’t live up to it. Add to the fact that Austin Jackson is probably next year’s CF and it’s clear that we should stay away from Wells.
I also don’t think we need Halladay. It would be nice to have him, but the price is too steep. If the Yankees deal Montero, that will be a sign of them returning to their past bad ways; mortgaging away the future for immediate reward.
Late night with an early wake-up call= much caffeine needed today by me so excuse fractured thinking if it occurs.
Listening to Joba last night, I had flashbacks of Alex 2006.
Not getting it done, stressing only the positives, trying to say the right things and in general trying to project an air of everything being all right when everyone knows it isn’t.
I’m not ready to give up on Joba but if Giambi could tell Torre the team needed him to have an intervention with Alex, hopefully someone is having that same conversation with Joba.
Ton Loc,
I understand that. It’s a balancing act. I just think it should be about the current team first than about the 2012 team.
Not comparing Joba to Halladay, just saying young pitchers struggle. Greinke in KC is the best example, high hopes that took a while to develop.
“Don’t be stupid. If the steroids added 10% to Rodriguez’ totals over those three years, or anybody else, that would be stretching it.”
I think it is different for each player. If Arod was truthful about his usage, I would say it helped him very little. Believe it or not, I think Canseco got little more than a mental edge. He was 6-4 or so, 225 without drugs, he had the power to hit HRs anyway, yet his career high was about 42.
It is impossible to say, however, that they didn’t help Bonds immeasurably. He had a (likely)career high of 46 clean, and then poof, 73. As for Sosa, anybody who watched him play would say he wasn’t half the player that anybody else in the 400+ club was, except Kingman and Canseco. Yet, he hit 60+ 3 times, everybody else in history combined did it 5 times. His legend was completely fabricated from chemicals.
Mad Dog lost it…
http://deadspin.com/5312470/ma.....own-update
How many games has Wang cost us this season? I’m not that thrilled with him, even with the 19-win seasons. He lost Game 2 of ‘05 in Anaheim, and two games against Cleveland two seasons ago. I just can’t believe that once again, we have two reliable starting pitchers.
Hey, Laura, thanks for the Oscar!
“Not comparing Joba to Halladay, just saying young pitchers struggle. Greinke in KC is the best example, high hopes that took a while to develop.”
Is that so hard to comprehend ?
Sure you did Brandon. I believe ya.
GF, you are very patient and you are consistent – you said the same things about Phil that you are saying about Joba. The thing is, it’s hard to develop youngsters in the midst of a pennant race – the Yankees will always have to walk the fine line. Howevr, Joba in the rotation really is hurting the team, but as you said, it’s not like they have anyone to replace him. That’s on the Yankees – they have to get someone to replace him. I don’t think that I’d advocate putting him in the pen – I’d rather see him in AAA. Also, putting him in the pen doesn’t really resolve the major issue, which is that the kid is stubborn, cocky and uncoachable to some degree.
I don’t know what it will take – esp. if SJ is correct and he’s been talked to by CC, AJ, Joe, Eiland, etc………..I agree with the poster who said that Joba right now almost resembles an AJ from his Florida days. AL Leiter has said that, back then, AJ was a good kid – but very stubborn. His pitching coach (forget his name, but he’s now the PC with the Phillies) said the same thing. That’s why Joba should really pay attention to what AJ is saying. Think AJ regrets being “young and stupid” (as he’s said several times)? I imagine he does – look at how he is embarrassed by his 9 walk no-hitter (think he threw nearly 100% FB in that game). He’s still got some very good years left in him, but he is 32. Fortunately, he had a few years with Doc – one person who was finally able to reach him. Joba’s only 23 – he’s lucky to have AJ and a bunch of veterans who he can look to (should he choose to). If he doesn’t, that’s on him.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus July 11th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
How are the Yankees short three starters?
Last I knew they were short one.
————–
Coming into the season the Yanks had nine starters;
Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte, Wang, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, and you can make an argument for Aceves.
But now Wang and Kennedy are out and Hughes is going to remain in the bullpen and is no longer an option.
I was wishy washy on Aceves because there’s a 50-50 chance he could be the starter in Wang’s spot after the break.
That’s why they are three starters short – Wang, Hughes, and Kennedy.
WHOAAAA….well last night’s game just goes to show you that you can’t figure baseball. How can you explain it? What an odd game. You can take all those numbers and stats and you know what you can do with them? You can throw them right out the window!
It’s kind of silly to try and quantify the % of extra home-runs a player hits because of PED’s.
Here’s a fact:
Old HR record: 61
New HR record: 73
A 20% increase.
And that fact and my metrocard will get me on the subway today.
Full focus was put on developing Greinke and a few others… How did those KC teams do?
“they were talking about the steroids allowed Rodriguez to play in the Texas sun. That’s a load of crap”
Absolutely, in fact steroids should have made it harder to play in the midst of the Texas heat, because of the dehydrating effects.
GreenBeret7
July 11th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Stultus Magnus
July 11th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Don’t be stupid. If the steroids added 10% to Rodriguez’ totals over those three years, or anybody else, that would be stretching it.
==============
Agreed, the figure is probably less than 5 percent.
I like what somebody else posted regarding that statement.
Killebrew was probably thinking “Damn, wonder if I could hit so many HRs off of juiced pitchers…”
————————————————————
As I said, 10% would be really stretching things, but, nobody could argue that. Over those three Texas years, that’s about 15 extra homers.
I’ve read some of the media “thinkers” where they were talking about the steroids allowed Rodriguez to play in the Texas sun. That’s a load of crap. Go back and look at the number of games that Jim Sunberg caught down there in the 70s and 80s. 145 games a year for 6 years and 2 years over 150. I’ve never heard anybody accuse Sunberg of taking anything.
==================
That is a load of crap. I think it’s funny how all of a sudden steroids can do anything for you, at least according to some people who need to kill an hour on cable TV.
Sunberg did take something: water. And lots of it.
“Sure you did Brandon. I believe ya.”
So what are you taking credit for next ? being the first to tell me my name is Brandon ? or that Nady is out for the season ?
Greenies weren’t a part of the game when Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig were playing.
Mantle couldn’t have played with out them.
Joba has got a lot of years ahead of him but the thing that troubles me is his attitude. Sometimes thats not coachable.
It will be hard to pull the trigger on Joba, Montero, and another guy for Halliday. I’d only do it if we can lock him up for at least 4 years and a team option for a 5th. Something along those lines.
DB July 11th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Greenies weren’t a part of the game when Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig were playing.
———–
Oh, yes they were. Greenies have been around for a hundred years. Check your baseball history books.
“I’m suggesting that Joba get the same treatment Ian and Phil were given. ”
Why? You hated the way Phil was treated after all, especially by the fans. Hated it. You have hundreds of posts here decrying it.
So you’re now arguing that Joba should be treated in the manner you found so unpalatable?
Joba being treated in a reactionary knee-jerk fashion doesn’t fix Phil Hughes’s past.
It just perpetuates the inability of so many Yankee fans to watch young player develop.
Very easy to root for Hughes now. Much harder after that last year and up to that Baltimore game this year and there were a lot of people saying Hughes was gutless, wasn’t competing, killing the bull pen, over rated, a bust, etc.
Very easy to root for Joba last year when he was outdueling Josh Beckett at Fenway. Much harder to have patience now.
This same nonsense of the yankee fans roller coaster will invariably happen to Montero. If the yankees sign Chapman this winter it will be even worse for him because he’s going to sign a big contract.
It’s just the same roller coaster of impatience.
Giuseppe;
Ahh, okay, I didn’t realize you were counting those that hadn’t made the team as well.
Joba’s stock has dropped sharply with Yankee fans. He’ll find out with the rollcall for his next start against Detroit.
So should the yankees not develop young prosects, again if not now when. Or should the yankees have a lost season and just use it to develop talent? Should have signed Kevin Lowe in the offseason? Pedro is still around.
Wang and Hughes went to the pen. Why can’t Joba?
I’m all for Joba the starter, but how much time should the Yankees give Joba to figure it out in the majors?
Bronx Jeers, and that old record was probably gotten with greenies. How about 60 in 148 games? (or was it 150)
Bats are better, parks are smaller, and the balls are wound more tight. All factors that have to be taken into account. The only thing you can do is compare Eras.
Bonds was way above everyone in his Era, including fellow PED’s users.
Ruth was way above his contemporaries.
Hey buddy, you called me out and then you backed away. Talk about a sissy. I know you’re the president of the Joba Rules fan club. I will try to be less critical of your hero in the future.
“What pisses me off about posters like E-gawa is you provide facts and when you do they scamper off like a little sissy that they are, only to bring up the same crap later hoping you don’t remember to call them out on it.”
“I think it’s funny how all of a sudden steroids can do anything for you”
I especially love the both sides argument. Misc. ESPN talking head will say that player A used steroids because he played every day, never got hurt, and the steroids make him indestructible.. He will then state that player B is of course using PEDs because he is always hurt and the steroids are breaking down his body.
“Very easy to root for Hughes now. Much harder after that last year and up to that Baltimore game this year and there were a lot of people saying Hughes was gutless, wasn’t competing, killing the bull pen, over rated, a bust, etc.”
I never gave up on Yussse infact it was the opposite I blamed it on Eiland every time I could, than this season I called Phil a little b…. eversince that Baltimore game he showed his cajones to the “trade him !!!” fans & shut me up. This fanbase has no patience, none whatsoever CB you know that.
m, Joba’s problem is location. Hughes was sent to the BP to fill a need and was still effective. Joba right now is ineffective. If anything he should go down to the minors and earn his way back. Problem is, no one can be counted on right now to be as good as he is crappy.
Ugh, my post got blocked.
GF, I really appreciate how patient you are – and you are consistent, saying the same things about Joba that you said about Phil. It’s hard to develop players and chase a pennant at the same time, but there you have it – that’s how it’s always going to be with the Yankees. Joba is hurting the team and I don’t think he should be in the rotation now, but I agree they don’t have any options to replace him. The Yankees need a SP for sure (and another bullpen arm. Bruney hasn’t been the same since his injury – maybe due to the fact that he had only 1 rehab outing. Also, I still think Aceves belongs there). I don’t think I’d put him back in the pen – I’d rather see him in AAA. Putting him in the pen doesn’t resolve the major issue, which is that Joba is overly confident to the point of arrogance and somewhat uncoachable. If what SJ says is true, then AJ, CC, Joe, Dave, etc…..have all tried to reach him and he’s just not getting it.
One poster earlier compared Joba to a young AJ and I agree. Al Leiter has said that AJ in Florida was a good kid – quieter than you’d think just looking at him (tatoos and all), but very stubborn (he was impossible to get through to). His pitching coach then (forget his name, but he’s the PC with the Phillies) said the same thing – that he got into knockdown, dragout fights (well I’m sure not literally) with AJ about his obsession with his FB. Think AJ regrets being “young and stupid” (his own words)? Look at his reaction to mention of his no-hitter – he’s completely embarrassed. He was lucky that Doc came into his life – kudos to Doc for getting through to him, but kudos to AJ for letting Doc in. Joba is in the same place – except he’s 23, not 32. AJ still has some very good years left in him, but it would have been better for his career had he learned what he learned years ago. Then again, the Florida rotation was filled with kids. That’s why Joba should look at AJ and realize how lucky he is to be surrounded by such quality veterans. I hope he can be reached.
Hughes was effective in the rotation is what I meant if it wasn’t clear.
“Should have signed Kevin Lowe in the offseason?”
Why, do the Yankees need a hockey GM?
“Hey buddy, you called me out and then you backed away. Talk about a sissy. I know you’re the president of the Joba Rules fan club. I will try to be less critical of your hero in the future. ”
Who the hell backs away from you ?
President of the Joba Rules club just for saying he’s young and going through struggles, which Molina, Gammons and GI Joe even said. Oh right I forgot your the baseball version of Ms. Cleo right ?
Cody must have a relative that is a member on the Yankees Board of directors, how else can’t you explain his .170 BA & .230 OBP being on any ML roster, his glove is nothing special either
“Bronx Jeers, and that old record was probably gotten with greenies. How about 60 in 148 games? (or was it 150)”
Babe Ruth’s 1927 record was attained under a different set of rules as well. He had 2 HRs that year that bounced in the field of play and over the wall. Today it is a GR double, back then it was a HR. Under modern rules, the Babe had 58 in a 154 game season.
DB
July 11th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Greenies weren’t a part of the game when Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig were playing.
————————————————————
Amphetamines first appeared in the States and baseball at the end of WWI. Soldiers were bringing them back from Europe….taking them from German soldiers, who used them to keep moving for days at a time. The SS used them again in WWII. They were developed in Germany in the late 1880s in Germany.
Oops. my 12:37 post was not in response to CB’s 12:34 post. Just kind of jumped in here.
No CB, you misunderstood me. I don’t want Joba treated like Phil was treated by the fans – no one deserves that. I mean that he should be treated by the Yankees the way Phil was treated. Phil would very likely have been sent down had he not gotten hurt last year………he certainly wouldn’t have been kept in the rotation. He was not even called up after his return – he had to wait for a September call up. Because of last year, he lost his spot in the rotation.
Let me ask you – what did you want the Yankees to do with Phil last April? If you wanted him to remain in the rotation, then I credit you for remaining consistent.
You would agree the Yankees have some major concerns with the rotation the way it is now – they’ve got 2 reliable SPs, that’s it – and the pen. What would you do?
GF and CB
Voices, wisdom and reason
listen think and learn
joeman we have that punk DeCaster in AAA he can’t hit or field any worse can he
After Zack Greinke went 5-17, 5.80 ERA at age 21, he rebuilt his mechanics in the minor leagues for nearly a year and came back with a fastball that averaged 94 instead of 90. He’s also a student of the game, very hard on himself for even minor mistakes, and a publicity shy guy who begrudgingly accepts fame as part of success. There is nothing in this story that reminds me of Joba.
Sorry Derrek Lowe, Braves.
Ton Loc,
I knew who you meant, just having fun!
Giuseppe Franco
July 11th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
DB July 11th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Greenies weren’t a part of the game when Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig were playing.
———–
Oh, yes they were. Greenies have been around for a hundred years. Check your baseball history books.
Did not know that, obviously. Thought greenies were introduced after the 2nd World War. Do you have any references?
if they try to trade Cody what could they expect back
CB, one other thing – do you think the Yankees are going to be patient with Phil next year when he struggles? He’s going to struggle big time because they have absolutely put his development on hold. He may barely get 100 innings this year and forget his change………..I won’t even ask about the fans, we know the fans will not be patient.
DB,
Hughes also got sent down last year. Ineffectiveness? Rib cage?
He was good when he came back up in September, though.
I’ve said this before, the Yankees are hamstrung with Joba because they’ve hitched their wagon to his star.
And whomever brought up Verlander in the last thread? Verlander didn’t lose his stuff, he’s still throwing in the high 90’s.
Thanks GB, got my world wars mixed up…
‘if they try to trade Cody what could they expect back’
Angel Berroa
“if they try to trade Cody what could they expect back”
A Poland Springs bottle cap ?
Joba doesn’t get it and if you look at stats only,and not the player,you’re being misled.Joba is living proof.
m,
Godd thing is Joba still has got options. They don’t need to drum up an injury like they did with Wang. Hughes broke a rib and think that was legitimate.
Cheers Mark
“if they try to trade Cody what could they expect back”
Wilson Betemit
“President of the Joba Rules club just for saying he’s young and going through struggles, which Molina, Gammons and GI Joe even said. Oh right I forgot your the baseball version of Ms. Cleo right ?”
More like President of the Joba Rules club for playing the role of internet tough guy towards anyone who questions his spot on the team.
Here you go Brandon, you win.
http://luxton.blogware.com/070.....ternet.jpg
Brandon… I’M AWESOME ! July 11th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
“if they try to trade Cody what could they expect back”
A Poland Springs bottle cap ?
—————————————————–
my point!!! & here’s a guy that is playing(starting) twice a week for the Yankees
Brandon, I declare you winner!
http://luxton.blogware.com/070.....ternet.jpg
test
DB
July 11th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Thanks GB, got my world wars mixed up…
————————————————————
Not a problem. A lot of people think that it was introduced in the late ’40s along with “Reefer Madness”. US military pilots used them in WWII and later. Even Ralph Kiner, talked about using them in WWII when he was flying PBYs over the Atlantic, searching for U-Boats.
“And whomever brought up Verlander in the last thread? Verlander didn’t lose his stuff, he’s still throwing in the high 90’s.”
Verlander last season was inconsistant last season, at times throwing in the low 90’s
http://www.fangraphs.com/pitch.....position=P
Moon Bean
“my point!!! & here’s a guy that is playing(starting) twice a week for the Yankees”
go on SAAMON (backwards) your preeching to the choir.
I think Andy will pitch great today.
I’d like to see Hinske get in one of these next two games…….and as for the pen, at least CC and AJ will be available tomorrow.
DB,
Yes, Joba still has options. But we don’t have many options to fill his spot.
What I was mainly thinking of though, is that they made such a big deal that Joba was a starter and that’s it. Of course it was due to the constant debate by the “experts”. But they’ve painted themselves into a corner, just like they did with Wang’s callup after Joba got hit on the leg.
If they were truly committed to making Joba a starter, they should send him down to iron out the kinks (like they should’ve done with Phil). If we see Joba in the bullpen, then we’ll know that they either want to win now, or they’re softening their stance on Joba is a starter. If we see Joba in the rotation even though he’s still struggling, then who knows what they’re thinking.
Jeter’s new house looks like a Fairfield Inn.
http://www.nypost.com/photos/g.....hoto01.htm
oops. They should’ve sent down Phil when Wang was recalled after Joba got hit. He had already started seeing the light.
Every era has something you can point to as helping or hurting stats.
Lower pitching mounds, greenies, exclusion of blacks, juiced balls, and steroids are just a few. Leiter did a great job explaining it.
Brandon,
Thanks for that. Well, I suppose they couldn’t give up on Verlander because he IS their ace. Not their ace of the future.
Verlander has been getting hit around lately, but still throwing hard. Always manages to have high K’s but gives up a lot of knocks. Just lately though. He’s had some real gems this year.
Brings up the old real estate analogy, location, location, location.
“oops. They should’ve sent down Phil when Wang was recalled after Joba got hit. He had already started seeing the light.”
We wouldn’t have won 13 out of 16 w/o Yusssse in that BP. Unless you believed in Who is Brian Bruney ?
How does this fanbase react if Cashman lands Jonathan Sanchez ?
positive, negative, or
?
“I mean that he should be treated by the Yankees the way Phil was treated. Phil would very likely have been sent down had he not gotten hurt last year………”
Ok, fair enough. But there is one very big difference between Hughes and Joba that really complicates things.
Joba’s lack of innings.
Hughes has thrown 146 innings in a season. Joba has never come close to that.
Now Phil is going to have issues next year with innings. But at least his arm has been tested to 146 innings. If they decided to throw him for 170 innings next year as a starter they might be able to depending on how they want to look at innings progressions.
Because Joba came out of college and then went to the pen in 2007 he never got to throw 140+ innings.
That’s a big difference between them.
Last year I was very supportive of Hughes even when he was struggling. I did think something was wrong with him as his starts went on and it made sense that they found that rib fracture. I’m on record saying it was that rib fracture and missing the whole year prior that were the likely cause of his struggles.
I have many posts up in the past where I said Hughes needed to rebuild his arm strength because he essentially lost 2 years of development. There is no way a young pitcher can have that happen and not take a hit. I would have understood if they’d traded him for Santana – but I really didn’t like the idea and didn’t want them to do it. I never wanted him traded in any way after the Santana stuff past. And even in this season I thought his struggles in the rotation early on were fine – just part of a young pitcher taking his lumps.
I don’t view Joba much differently. It’s more frustrating with Joba because he has more talent but it is what it is.
And next year Phil is going to be in for it again. It’s just much easier to pitch out of the pen. He likely won’t be able to put up this dazzling performance as a starter and people will squawk about him needing to go back to the pen, about being caught up in his success, etc., etc.
Brandon,
I don’t want to argue about that.
If Hughes had been in the minors, still stretched out, he would’ve replaced Wang.
Yes, Hughes was important, but he didn’t pitch in all of those games.
You have a point, but I have a point, too. Just don’t want to spend the morning going over that.
Furthermore, if Phil philled Wang’s spot, then Rebecca’s mo/ndoza (Ace) would still be in the bullpen doing what Phil is doing now!
m, very true. He can’t continue like this. But the question is, who do you have to replace him that could give you better than what Joba gives you now?
There in lies the rub and maybe why they don’t make the move until he really implodes or gets hurt.
Need is too strong of a word. This team is already a lock for the playoffs. How greedy are you people?
******************************************************
There’s a fine line between hopeful optimism and obnoxious arrogance.
J.P. Ricciardi is not foolish enough to think that Vernon Wells must be included in any Halladay deal.
Any talks with him now are clandestine and real talks won’t happen until the last week of the month.
We’ll see then who blinks and who doesn’t.
Here’s the rub….
At this time, the needs of the trump Joba’s needs.
Joba needs to develop and the team needs to win.
Joba is hurting the team. What do you do?
They aren’t going to give him 15 more starts at the ML pitching like this. That’s the dilemma.
If he has to develop as a starter, Scranton may have to be the place for him unless he can show he’s more than he is showing at the present.
It’s a big, big problem. The Detroit start is going to be very important for him if he wants to work out his problems in NY.
GB7.
If you have a minute can you call the FedEx# that Amy emailed you with the tracking#. They have called her a couple of times this AM stating the numbers on the street are not clearly market and need directions. That is what they are claiming anyway.
Thanks GB. Happy Saturday.
-dennis
Rather have Ponson or Rasner right now starting, or take your chance with Joba?
“And whomever brought up Verlander in the last thread? Verlander didn’t lose his stuff, he’s still throwing in the high 90’s.”
Is this in reference to Verlander last year?
Because if it is that’s not true.
Verlander literally lost his stuff last year. Watching him pitch – especially in the early part of the season he looked horrible. Fastball consistently in the low 90’s. He got a bit better as the season went on but his stuff was completely different last year. I thought he had a shoulder injury. His average fastball last year was 2 mph slower than it is this season.
No idea what happened other than his arm being not right.
“Furthermore, if Phil philled Wang’s spot, then Rebecca’s mo/ndoza (Ace) would still be in the bullpen doing what Phil is doing now!”
Ace is good in spots, he wasn’t as effective and important as Yussse is to that BP right now. (not that I want him to stay there)
Read a twitter (I think) that said the Yanks were sending an exec to scout Mitre’s start today. Perhaps to replace Joba or Ace?
DB,
Seriously, Joba needs to be saved from himself at this point.
I don’t think any of us can understand the kind of pressure that Phil, Ian, and Hughes felt being in the rotation of the New York Yankees.
The break comes at a perfect time for Joba.
If I had my choice? I’d stretch out Hughes and reinsert him into the rotation. I’d probably go with mitre for the 5th slot.
But as it stands now, IF (that’s a big if) Joba’s taken out of the rotation, it will probably be Ace & mitre.
Ton Loc, Joba…not even close.
Mitre should replace Ace his start killed the bullpen for last night.
“Verlander literally lost his stuff last year. Watching him pitch – especially in the early part of the season he looked horrible. Fastball consistently in the low 90’s. He got a bit better as the season went on but his stuff was completely different last year. I thought he had a shoulder injury. His average fastball last year was 2 mph slower than it is this season.
No idea what happened other than his arm being not right.”
CB, yeh you were the guy that pointed it out I remember (I have to say this b/c E-gawa might want to take credit for something again)
Do you think that’s what Joba is going through right now, b/c it’s almost similar, he had an inconsistant fastball in the 1st half and this season he just got it. Ervin Santana’s first few yrs. was ok and then 2 yrs. ago he was hitting 99 mph w/ his heater.
m, I agree with you. He does need to be saved from himself. Maybe that saving is only a conversation with Joe telling him pitch better or you are getting sent down. He’s always been a guy that needs a chip on his shoulder to pitch well it seems.
Can someone give me a small scounting report on Mitre? Feature pitch, mph on Fastball?
CB,
Brandon beat you to the punch.
The difference between Verlander and Joba, is that Verlander had already established as their ace. It’s not his first rodeo.
Joba’s still a work in progress, but do the Yankees have the patience to let Joba figure it out in the Yankee rotation?
“They aren’t going to give him 15 more starts at the ML pitching like this. That’s the dilemma.”
No they aren’t. But Joba isn’t going to pitch like this the rest of the year, IMO.
I don’t see it. And that’s why I don’t think you put him on a game to game watch and see basis.
There aren’t enough Tim Lincecums in the world to go around. If the Yankees want a younger, power pitching staff this is what they are going to have to put up with.
This is really going to come to a head with Chapman. If the Yankees sign him many fans are going to wind up hating him. Hating him.
He’s going to sign for huge money. Either he’s rushed and is sent to the majors or he goes to the minors for a year. Regardless he’s going to struggle in the majors and he’ll be struggling while making $7-8M/ year – not $400,000.
Can’t wait until the Chapman is Kei Igawa redux comparisons start coming out.
“Can someone give me a small scounting report on Mitre? Feature pitch, mph on Fastball?”
sinkerballer, 91-92 mph. A very poor mans Ace.
Aceves is still getting stretched out. He has got the repetoire to pitch deep in to games and usually keeps his pitch count low. He got squeezed a lot in his last inning against Minny. He had only given up 1 earned run on a mistake pitch for a home run up until then. I like Ace in the rotation.
CB, I can’t see the Yanks jumping Phil to 170 because the 146 was in 2006 – a lifetime ago – but I get your point.
Yep, something was definitely amiss with Phil last year – he was just too bad to be true. I’m sure, like you, that he was feeling the effects of the rib injury before it was diagnosed. He came back in September (just two starts) and looked different……..and he certainly looked different this ST. I don’t mean to imply that he will be bad next year – because I don’t.It’s just that his development has been put on hold again and it’s sort of unfair to him. He’s not going to be 23 forever – at what point do to the Yankees just leave him alone? He deserves the chance to develop into the type of pitcher he’s capable of being instead of always being a victim of circumstances (2007 – injuries to rotation, rushed – he was never supposed to sniff the bigs until September. 2009 – pitching so well as a starter that he was put in the pen. Frustrating).
I also think that people forget just how talented Phil is because they are so enamored with Joba (for good reason). Phil is not an insignificant or merely good talent – he’s got the ability to be an excellent starter in the league for a long time. He’s also got outstanding makeup and work ethic – it is easy to root for him (I’m not knocking Joba here, just making a comment about Phil)
Another major rule difference that I had never heard of before:
Also, until approximately that time, the ball had to not only go over the fence in fair territory, but to land in the bleachers in fair territory or to still be visibly fair when disappearing behind a wall. The rule stipulated “fair when last seen” by the umpires.
Babe Ruth’s 60th home run in 1927 was somewhat controversial, because it landed barely in fair territory in the stands down the right field line. Ruth lost a number of home runs in his career due to the when-last-seen rule. Bill Jenkinson, in The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs, estimates that Ruth lost at least 50 and as many as 78 in his career due to this rule.
Imagine the craziness if this were still the case today!
Ah, DB.
The problem is that twitter came out before Joba’s start yesterday.
But I can’t believe that a Halladay trade depends on mitre’s next start.
dennis-Costanza
July 11th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
GB7.
If you have a minute can you call the FedEx# that Amy emailed you with the tracking#. They have called her a couple of times this AM stating the numbers on the street are not clearly market and need directions. That is what they are claiming anyway.
Thanks GB. Happy Saturday.
-dennis
————————————————————Dennis, Already done. I called them about 90 minutes to 2 hours ago, and gave them my phone number and precise directions. They will call me when they get out to Lake George in Midway. I just sent you and Amy an email to the address you provided.
Thanks for everything.
Thank Brandon
“St8 done. Tough but not 2 challenging. Had antidoping control AGAIN. Couldn’t pee so it took forever. Sucked! Now I’m starting to wonder tho”
Guess who twittered that?
Someone, I think it was Mark Fiensand or maybe Pete, said that Phil is finally letting it go and not worries about protecting himself from injury anymore. Maybe the BP finally let him do that? There is something to be said about AJ’s comment of how he used to pitch and now. The problem is he still is throwing 94 out of the gate and through the game. Joba nor Phil do that when they are in the rotation.
“Joba’s still a work in progress, but do the Yankees have the patience to let Joba figure it out in the Yankee rotation?”
That’s pretty much a spot on summary of the situation.
I haven’t seen any evidence that they won’t be patient. And they don’t have much in the way of alternatives if Wang is hurt. People at this point are really over selling Sergio Mitre.
Brandon,
I don’t know what’s going on with Joba. I don’t think it’s injury. I think it’s probably a combination of things. I think he’s worried that if he throws in the mid to upper 90’s he’ll hurt his arm. I don’t think he’s in good shape.
And I think that stint in the bull pen has really hurt his development as a pitcher in several ways. First and foremost it made him fall in love with his slider and showed him, falsely, that he could get hitters out in the bigs through cheap stunts like throwing the ball in the dirt. That was never going to last. I also think it gave him a false sense of security.
Too much competition at the big league level. Have to stay on top of everything.
Just look at Halladay’s last three starts – look how different he’s been after coming off that injury. And that’s after only 2 weeks on the DL.
There are no healthy margins for success at the MLB level.
Mark in Tampa, so what did they count as? grounds rule doubles? That’s completely crazy.
One of the odderrules back in the Cobb-Ruth eras were that if games were won in the 9th inning or extra innings, the walk offs were only given credit for as many bases as it took to get the winning run home…i.e….if the score was 4-3 in the bottom of the 9th and a hitter belted a home run with the bases loaded, he only got credit for a one run single. Odd rules are fun facts.
I see Joba as being very competitive. I do not think for one second he’s happy with his performance. No matter what he say’s to the press.
I seem to remember Phil coming on strong At the end of May, and telling my son Joba was going to have a good game. That was the 8ip game in Cleveland. After that start Joba place in the rotation was set, and Phil went to the pen.
If I was Joe, I tell Joba, figure it out in Detroit, or Phil is going to take his next start(even if it’s not true). He’s too compettive to let that happen.
Brandon, I have to ask. Why are you AWESOME!!
Surely, if you are going to self-prescribe the title there must be a valid reason.
Regarding Joba, it’s not a matter of patience with the Yankees, but whether they can afford to keep getting the same poor results out of him with Wang down and Pettitte having trouble at home. They’re trying to make the playoffs with Boston in front and Tampa breathing down their backside along with the Texas/LA loser in the hunt too.
If you guys are fine with missing the playoffs then you keep running Joba out there and hope for the best from him.
wonder if Cody is playing, isn’t it time for Cano to get a rest
m, I have no idea wo twittered it…who did?
Correction: the walk offs were only given credit for as many bases as it took to get the winning run home…i.e….if the score was 4-3 in the bottom of the 9th and a hitter belted a home run with the bases loaded, he only got credit for a ***two*** run single.
““St8 done. Tough but not 2 challenging. Had antidoping control AGAIN. Couldn’t pee so it took forever. Sucked! Now I’m starting to wonder tho”
Guess who twittered that?”
John Henry?
Our 1st Baseman, our 3rd baseman, our top 2 pitchers….what do all of these people have in common ?…they were supposedly NEVER going to become Yankees because of what we would have to give up to get them. If Halladay wants to be a Yankee, he will be a Yankee….nuff said….
two things happen to Joba, he forgot how to knock batters off the plate & he can’t put hitters away (thus the high pitch count) at 0-2,1-2,2-2
I’m still trying to figure out what St8 means.
Straight
We should really be blaming Molina for Jobber’s performance last night.
Kidding!
And, no!
It wasn’t John Henry.
Oh no thats Lance Armstrong, stage 8
I watched Joba up close last night…He’s not hurt, if anything he’s not in the shape a 23/24 year old mlb pitcher should be….He’s constantly sucking for air as if he’s winded….He was locating in the 1st inning nicely, but when things get rocky he becomes a different guy out there…..I don’t think his fastball has any pop to it ( Melanchon has nice giddy-up ) and he has location issues….Tempo was good in the first inning, but once guys get on, he seems to get distracted and loses command…I will tell you this, once he was taken out, 3 different men left with their notebooks…This was after charting his every move…..I don’t think they were advanced scouts…..Joba has great talent, however he needs to get focused on the art of pitching…Maybe he is not a starting pitcher, maybe he’ll always be a thower…Which spells bullpen
“Brandon, I have to ask. Why are you AWESOME!!
Surely, if you are going to self-prescribe the title there must be a valid reason.”
I just am.
m
July 11th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
“St8 done. Tough but not 2 challenging. Had antidoping control AGAIN. Couldn’t pee so it took forever. Sucked! Now I’m starting to wonder tho”
Guess who twittered that?
————————————————————
Lance Armstrong?
Ah, CB! You beat me to it!
I like today’s lineup…Hopefully we don’t have to see Ransom for a very long time.
Jeter ss
Damon lf
Teixeira 1b
A-Rod 3b
Matsui dh
Posada c
Cano 2b
Hinske rf
Gardner cf
Yes, it’s Lance Armstrong.
i think if the yankees are smart they would take rios contract in a halladay deal instead of wells because rios can basically take over nadys roll with the team
I think one thing to consider in comparing generational stats is the overall competition in the modern game.
MLB is now drawing players from all over the globe. 2 generations ago is was just basically white dudes from the States.
You have to be bigger, stronger, faster now.
Back in the day, you didn’t have to be big, you had to be skilled. Now you have to be both.
You want to know how big Lou Gehrig was? He was about Swisher’s size. Mantle was even smaller.
While I think Joba did not pitch well last night, he is not totally responsible for the loss. In fact, he didn’t even get the loss. It’s a 9-inning game. The effect of the errors by ARod and Jeter, Melancon’s performance, and the 3-run HR given up by Bruney had a major influence on the game result. Take those out of the equation, and the Yanks probably get a W. So, as in most wins where there are several “heroes”, and in this loss there were several “goats”.
If the Yanks can win 1 of the next 2, we should be happy with a 4-2 road trip.
“Our 1st Baseman, our 3rd baseman, our top 2 pitchers….what do all of these people have in common ?”
Free agency.
He’s not hurt, if anything he’s not in the shape a 23/24 year old mlb pitcher should be….He’s constantly sucking for air as if he’s winded….
===========================
That is not good. The yankees paid for Youuse to train at athletes performance this past offseason. I dunno if much can be done now, but the yankees should send Jobber there this offseason and get his hiney in shape
RT @BryanHoch: Yankees lineup: Jeter 6 Damon 7 Tex 3 ARod 5 Matsui 0 Posada 2 Cano 4 Hinske 9 Gardner 8 Pettitte 1
Oh ok Brandon, I was hoping you would tell me you figured out the black hole paradox or cured cancer. But, I guess just because will do.
“He’s not hurt, if anything he’s not in the shape a 23/24 year old mlb pitcher should be….He’s constantly sucking for air as if he’s winded….”
Pat M,
This very well could explain it. He doesn’t look very good on the mound physically.
Tough thing to get in shape unfortunately during a season.
And I posted on this several times last night – completely agreed with your assessment. Joba was two pitchers last night. Bases clear he was aggressive. Man reaches and he reverts back to nonsense.
But if the fundamental issue is his conditioning then he needs to start changing that now.
Sweet_Lou_in_Vermont
July 11th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
While I think Joba did not pitch well last night, he is not totally responsible for the loss. In fact, he didn’t even get the loss. It’s a 9-inning game. The effect of the errors by ARod and Jeter, Melancon’s performance, and the 3-run HR given up by Bruney had a major influence on the game result. Take those out of the equation, and the Yanks probably get a W. So, as in most wins where there are several “heroes”, and in this loss there were several “goats”.
If the Yanks can win 1 of the next 2, we should be happy with a 4-2 road trip.
————————————————————
take Chamberlain’s 4 earned runs allowed out of the equation and the Yanks probably win, too.
pat m,
Thanks for the updates, especially last night.
Good to have an “eyewitness” account of what was happening.
To hear you confirm SJ’s suspicion that Joba’s out of shape is very disappointing.
I’m a fan of the lineup today.
Good to see the mashers out there and the speedy runt at the bottom.
It almost seems like we rarely see A-Rod, Damon, Posada, and Matsui all in the same lineup.
If the team continues to win despite Joba’s bad starts, I say, keep running him out there until he gets it together. He has a long leash here with the fan base that remembers how he saved the 2007 season. If the team falls back to the pack and Wang is back, then I would support a move.
Can’t take Youuse out of the pen now, Mo would cry.
Was there ever a point where Joba was in truly good shape? He’s always been a bit on the pudgy side. Never figured him for a triathlete or anything.
“I’m a fan of the lineup today.
Good to see the mashers out there and the speedy runt at the bottom.
It almost seems like we rarely see A-Rod, Damon, Posada, and Matsui all in the same lineup.”
If they had that lineup last night, perhaps they win a slugfest or put enough runs on board that Joba pitches better.
I don’t care if Saunders is a lefty, most of our left-handed hitters could handle him.
“Was there ever a point where Joba was in truly good shape?”
2007. I don’t think he was or will ever be in Alex Rodriguez shape – it’s more a relative thing for him.
Interestingly, that was also the year he played winter ball before the season.
“….or put enough runs on board that Joba pitches better.”
He had a 5-1 lead. Just how many runs would have caused him to pitch better?
Regardless, Joba may have gotten by on his talent in college & the minors. But going the distance as a major league starter requires stamina. Physical fatigue leads to mental lapses and errors.
Does anyone know who russo is taking from wfan to join him now? Apparently he had a bit of a meltdown regarding his terrible ratings.
http://deadspin.com/5312470/ma.....ond-update (has the below video embedded)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x97sx1NLloM
the best part of his rant is him saying he’s going to pass on a vacation to find guys who know what happened in gone with the wind and the 62 giants (francessa much?).
NYY needs to pack a stationary bike and treadmill on every trip, and stick Chamberlain on them for two hours a day and get his legs, back and stomach muscles into proper condition. David Wells was on the overweight side, but, his legs were never a problem. His back was later when he let himself go.
“He had a 5-1 lead. Just how many runs would have caused him to pitch better?”
Who knows just speculating since there is little else to talk about.
Let’s not forget, Joba only came to the Yankees because of injury concerns…
He doesn’t exactly have a history of good conditioning
“He had a 5-1 lead. Just how many runs would have caused him to pitch better?”
=============
Maybe he should have given up 4 runs in the first inning so he’d be relaxed and pitch with authority? Like the Red Sox game…
I like GB’s idea, make him hit the bike everyday for a couple hours. I was just gonna write about Wells, did he ever condition himself and work on his legs?
Joba fastball velocity was good yesterday. According to MLB Gameday the pitch he struck out Figgins in the first was 97mph. He his fastball was hitting 94,95. He made that one bad pitch to Morales and that cost him the game. Until that point he was pitching pretty well.
The allstar break comes at a good time hoepfully Joba can regroup and have a strong second half.
I just wish Wang wasn’t hurt so we could send Joba to the minors where he belongs.
Does CC condition? He does not look like it physically however he is so fluid in everything he does and his stamina is the best in game as a starter. I think it is more mental with Joba. JMO.
-dennis
Pel if your still here could you please upload the Jerry Manuel laugh, srsly it’s a classic.
dennis,
CC was going to sign with the University of Hawaii on a football scholarship because they were going to let him play baseball as well. So, I think CC is used to and does his conditioning. There’s no way he could be the horse that he is if he doesn’t.
On the other side of the spectrum, I’ve heard that John Daly is also a great athlete (not just golf). But his conditioning program includes cigs, beer, and hot wings.
dennis-Costanza
July 11th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Does CC condition? He does not look like it physically however he is so fluid in everything he does and his stamina is the best in game as a starter. I think it is more mental with Joba. JMO.
-dennis
————————————————————
Wells and Sabathia have much in common. Both appear to be overweight, but, both were big (tall) guys, left handed and apparently born with a supple arm (rubber arm). They know mechanics and they fear nothing (unless you count Wells fear of sleep).
Mel.
I would agree. He must condition. Too good and he is too much of a horse as he demonstarted last year.
Darn, now I am craving hot wings..
-dennis
CB,
I don’t think its an issue of the Yankees having patience with his development. I think its more an issue of where and in what role that development takes place.
Let’s face it, I don’t care what one’s ceiling is, you can’t pitch like this and stay in the rotation. I don’t care if your name is Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes or Kei Igawa. His work is completely unacceptable at this point.
You can keep him in the majors if your team has no playoff aspirations. You can work it out, if possible at the ML level and see where it goes.
Clearly, that’s not the case with the Yankees.
He’s not in shape. That’s a given. He can’t sustain velocity, mechanics and command because of his lack of conditioning. That’s the telltail sign, as Pat M will tell you, of a pitcher not in good shape.
That’s inexcusable for a 23 year old. However, that’s another issue for another day.
If you are the Yankees, you are only left with two choices at this point. Put him in the bullpen to get the 30-40 quality innings he’s physically capable of giving the rest of the way. Or, send him to Scranton, have him not touch a ball for two weeks, begin a boot camp style conditioning program and begin the process of truly developing him as a starting pitcher.
Do it from the ground up and expect it to take 40-50 minor league starts and between 250-350 IP before you contemplate returning him to the big leagues.
If you have to change his release point, mechanics, or anything else, do it.
Basically, forget about him being a contributor at the ML level until he can physically, mentally and mechanically be trusted to give you length and quality more often than not.
If it takes a year, great. Two or three years, no problem.
THAT’S developing him.
If its just going to be putting him out there and hope he figures it out on his own, I don’t see that as a winning strategy. If it was, he would have figured it out already.
dennis,
I also heard that Daly’s running program is chasing waitresses around Hooters. Don’t know if Amy would like that, though!
GB7.
I agree, that have that in common. CC seems like a good dude. I do not like his uni but I would not be a baseball fan if I did not like the guy. What he did for the Brewers last year in a contract year is one of most least talked about great feats and unselfish acts in the last decade or two.
-dennis
If George was around and in ill-temper he’d call Joba a “fat Western Meadowlark” (NE’s state bird)
So far Cashman holy three have all flopped as starting pitchers. Kennedy was awful and both Chamberlain & Hughes had a couple of great starts but than pitch a lot of bad or average starts they both are too inconsistent as starters.
I was out food shopping and stuff and missed about 2 hours of posts.
But it looks the conversation is still Joba.
I think job one is to find a replacement for Wang, with the hope that whatever pitcher it is is capable of pitching 6-plus innings minimum, keeping the team in the games he pitches. If that happens, the Yankees can afford to continue to be patient with Joba. Unless Cashman pulls off some kind of deal for a 5th starter, they do not have 2 pitchers to swap into the rotation, unless they also want to have a depleted bullpen because Aceves won’t be a part of it and Bruney is still not Bruney.
And Andy Pettitte, the stalwart guy that he is, must continue to gut it out and grind through 6 plus innings every start, too.
If all the other starters are doing their jobs, Joba does not have as much pressure.
Gosh, I wish I was a fly on the wall for all the meetings they must have already had with Chamberlain.
dennis-Costanza
July 11th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
GB7.
I agree, that have that in common. CC seems like a good dude. I do not like his uni but I would not be a baseball fan if I did not like the guy. What he did for the Brewers last year in a contract year is one of most least talked about great feats and unselfish acts in the last decade or two.
-dennis
————————————————————
Never liked the uniform look of a sad sack…Ramirez was the worst. I can’t remember when the uniform wear changed. I always remembered the 70s and back. You never see the “knicker style” where the pants were rolled above the calf….Rodriguez, Garnder, Thome, et al, but, they are the ones now with “the weird look”. Then too, can’t stand the look of the basketball unis that hang below the knees.
Doreen
July 11th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
I was out food shopping and stuff and missed about 2 hours of posts.
But it looks the conversation is still Joba.
————————————————————
The convos have run the gamit from Chamberlain’s games to Rodriguez’ use of steroids, brought up again by PA’s not so veiled jabs Rodriguez’ for closing in on Killabrew. In other words, you’ve missed very little that you haven’t read before.
Joba right now is an average pitcher. He kills the pen because he cannot go deep into games.
A big difference between him and Hughes is Hughes is mature. I have never heard Hughes make excuses the way Joba does. Joba needs to grow up.
I worry perhaps Joba’s problems might run a little deeper then conditioning, the DWI could be an indication that there are other things going on inside Joba’s life that we do not yet know about. I sincerely hope not. One can never forget the story of Ira Hayes.
He is afterall a native American brought up on a reservation, his mother and her problems, it could be that in New York away from his Dad, he is burning the candle at both ends.This is all speculation on my part.
In the early 90s I worked in that area of Nebraska installing phone systems on those very same Winnebago reservations Joba’s family is from, it was an eye opener, unemployment, drug use, alcoholism, it is a very depressed area that Joba has risen from. I think back thinking maybe one of those dirty face kids I saw playing ball in the streets was Joba.
Another rough game for the Yankees – Weaver is a good pitcher and, after giving up some runs to the Yanks early last time against them, he gave up absolutely nothing the rest of the way. Andy ……..eh. I love the guy and he battles, but everything is a struggle for him. I don’t expect today to be any different. Who’s available in the pen today? Coke? Phil (Joe – it might be nice to let him go more than one inning at at ime)? Tomko? I really want this game – the idea of possibly being swept tomorrow is, how shall I put it, not good.
Doreen,
They need a 5th starter on July 21. Between now and then, they will watch Mitre and see if he is up to the task. Unless Mitre bombs altogether, he’s probably going to get that start.
Joba’s next start in Detroit determines his fate, IMO.
If its another, 4+ inning, “Don’t worry, the sun will still shine tomorrow” outing, it will be his last start in NY for awhile.
If he shows improvement, even if he just shows he’s willing to respond to coaching, work with his catcher AND be more accountable (three things he has yet to show all year and its July 11), he buys himself some time.
If not, they will either go to Aceves or go and get somebody when his turn in the rotation is up again.
This whole Joba Experiment is on its last legs at the major league level unless the kid begins to show more.
You just can’t continue to pitch like this and think you are in the rotation for good. He’s not a guy with ANY consistent track record of success to earn such an honor.
I will lastly add, its ok for Joba Chamberlain to have to sing for his supper. That’s what you do with young players. I don’t want to hear, “Its too much pressure to put on him” because that’s ridiculous.
“Too much pressure to put on him” is, asking him to pitch Game 7 of a deciding post-season series. That’s not what the Yankees are looking for out of him.
They want him to show more than just being a RH version of Kei Igawa. That’s not asking too much. That’s the job requirement to stay in the rotation.
RhapsodyInBlue
July 11th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
I worry perhaps Joba’s problems might run a little deeper then conditioning, the DWI could be an indication that there are other things going on inside Joba’s life that we do not yet know about. I sincerely hope not. One can never forget the story of Ira Hayes.
He is afterall a native American brought up on a reservation, his mother and her problems, it could be that in New York away from his Dad, he is burning the candle at both ends.This is all speculation on my part.
In the early 90s I worked in that area of Nebraska installing phone systems on those very same Winnebago reservations Joba’s family is from, it was an eye opener, unemployment, drug use, alcoholism, it is a very depressed area that Joba has risen from. I think back thinking maybe one of those dirty face kids I saw playing ball in the streets was Joba.
————————————————————
Dealing in cheap stereotyping, are we?
I think the Joba debate is kind of pointless right now.
Until Wang comes back or we trade for another starter, he has to continue to start at the big league level.
Hughes is not stretched out and is bolstering the pen. Ace belongs in the role he’s thrived in.
Mitre? Come on.
We’re short Wang already. We can’t be short Joba & Wang.
That said, if we trade Joba for Halladay it makes sense short term.
If we can trade for another starter or find one (how long would it take Paul Byrd to get ready to throw for us?) then we can talk about demoting Joba.
I think Joba needs a trip to the minors to straighten his head out. I think he believes he’s a celebrity now (which he is) and I think the fame and the fortune have made him stop working for it.
Having success is a strange thing. Some people thrive off of it and some people question it and sabotage it.
I don’t know Joba personally, but I think he’s in love with the fame and scared of letting people down and all the mental gymnastics going on in his head are messing him up.
Can he get better? If he’s not injured yes.
But the Yankees need him in the rotation unless a better option presents itself.
He’s horribly frustrating to watch right now and his starts are now a non-event.
You know the moment he gets a lead he’ll give it right up.
That’s sad.
GLove,
Agreed. He’s a non-factor to the team right now until his next start after the break. In fact, if I were the Yankees, I’d send him home and get him away from the rest of the team for awhile. Maybe that makes him think about some things at the break.
Where you and I disagree is, even with Wang out, its doubtful he has a lot of rope remaining. These aren’t starts others can’t make while he is in Scranton working on his game.
Kei Igawa can produce these pitching lines. Conversely, you can also get lucky for 1-3 starts and perhaps get help from a guy like Mitre, buying time until you can either make a trade, get Wang back, or both.
NYPost_Mets The #Mets have signed infielder Angel Berroa, the 2003 AL Rookie of the Year, to a minor-league deal and assigned him to AAA Buffalo.
Reality is, win one of the next two and its a winning roadtrip leading into the break.
Certainly doable.
They have some issues. Then again, so does everybody else.
Keep winning as much as possible and buy some time until you can make some moves.
GB7=
SJ44 -
I am duly admonished. Yes, there shouldn’t be “pressure” on Joba and if he does feel pressure that is not good. I guess I meant if they find a decent #5 starter, the Yankees won’t be as pressured to replace Joba. But I do agree with you, that he needs to show “something” in his next start. What’s been the most discouraging for me is that there’s been no sign of improvement. I’d say there was regression, but he was never this bad before.
As I said earlier, I don’t think there’s any shame, for either Joba or the Yankees, in going back to the drawing board. There is value in getting those minor league innings, even if you’re dominating. For one thing, he can pitch from the stretch all the time until he “gets” it, regardless of the game situation – among other mechanical aspects of pitching.
GreenBeret7
Dealing in cheap stereotyping, are we?
It seems to me in reading your commentary here that you missed your calling in life, you should be a bartender you are afterall an expert on everything discussed on this forum.
For your information, I spent the past 30 years in the phone business but before that I worked with troubled youths in the NY State Division for youth as a counselor. The counties within NY State that have the highest rates of Alcoholism are franklin and Clinton where most of the Native American Reservations in NY are. I first hand worked with many Native American boys aged 14-17 sent up to the facility I was employed on a condition of probation so i did have access to their family files and background. i did that for 7 years of life finally leaving because of state of constant depression i found myself inw orking with these boys who after 7 or 8 months would return to the same environment that contributed to their problems, many of the boys I worked with at time are now dead or serving time for crimes they committed.
Mike Tyson at the time was at one of the other facilities we played basketball against, I coached the basketball team, they locked us in the gym when we were the visiting team, it was quite an experience to say the least.
The other thought I have, vis-a-vis not wanting to “lose” Joba from the rotation, is that the Joba that was expected is already lost. Take the name away. What do you do? If it’s just plain ole’ Justin and not Joba Rules, what would be done?
cue Berroa jokes
Angel Berroa lives!!! He’s like Jason from the Friday the 13th movies. You can’t kill him!
SJ,
I don’t know. I can’t imagine them demoting Joba and selling Mitre to the team.
The thing about Joba is he’s been bad, but good enough to keep his spot if you keep him in perspective that he’s a 5th starter.
The problem is that he was supposed to be a budding #1 starter in the 5th hole exploiting a major weakness against opposing teams.
Instead, he’s pitching like a avg. 5th starter.
I agree Igawa can come up and mirror Joba’s lines, but they would have to add Igawa to the 40 man at the expense of another player.
I don’t know much about Mitre, but if you demote Joba, Mitre is our #4 starter.
To demote Joba the team needs to make a move.
Sign a Paul Byrd if he can still spin a quality start and get into the 6th.
Go out and get a back end starter from another team who would like to shed some cash. I don’t know who is out there but in order to rebuild Joba and teach him a lesson (and I think he needs and wants this lesson) you need to find a solid, not spectacular, replacement.
I think Joba is waiting for the shoe/axe to drop and secretly wants to see it all taken away from him and then have to earn it back again and be an underdog/comeback story.
Some guys are like that in sports, entertainment, life.
The most impressive thing about guys like Jeter and Mo are they never let it get to their heads to the point that they slacked off.
I think Joba wants to be punished and wants the discipline from the Principal’s office in order to prove himself to everyone all over again.
You only get to be a debutante once. I think Joba wants to have his coming out party again. If he’s healthy, it seems like that’s what he’s asking for.
SJ, do you think the Yanks are regretting their decision to start Aceves and that is why Mitre is being considered? I really think he’s too important to the pen to move him – I would rather the Yanks go get a SP, which they need and keep Ace in the pen. Without him there, it’s just not good enough, particularly with Bruney struggling. Can we really trust Robertson and Melancon? No – so the pen is not a strength without Ace in it. I still think the Yanks need another reliever as well – but SP first.
SJ.
Absolutely.
If the Sox were going to MN and then CA for 6 games and came back 4-2 I would be very pleased. IMO, people have to take the sweep out of the equation and look at the trip as whole. 4-2 is a great road trip. Heck, they could have a 5-1 road trip however your point is win one out of the next two and 4-2 is still a good trip.
If I looked at the trip I would have said prior that 3-3 is OK and move on and keep grinding in the 2nd half. The Yanks are in a great position right now. Its going to be a battle until the leaves turn. (not in Miami)
-dennis
I hope this excuse-making for Joe is just because he’s not going to kill Joba in public and that privately he’s upset…
RhapsodyInBlue
July 11th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
GreenBeret7
Dealing in cheap stereotyping, are we?
It seems to me in reading your commentary here that you missed your calling in life, you should be a bartender you are afterall an expert on everything discussed on this forum.
For your information, I spent the past 30 years in the phone business but before that I worked with troubled youths in the NY State Division for youth as a counselor.
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I never claimed to be an expert on anything….just well read.
I don’t care if you’re Tom Jeffries’ or George A. Custer’s favorite nephew, it was still a cheap stereotype, “with your background” you should know that. It also has no place here.
Doreen,
There isn’t any harm at all for the Yankees, and Joba for that matter, to admit he needs more time in the minors to become a viable ML starting pitcher. In fact, one can argue, regardless of the shape of the current rotation, if you really want to develop the kid, that is the most prudent strategy at this time.
History is filled with guys who were “start-stop” types. Guys who started in the majors, had to go back to the minors to find it again, and have come back better than ever.
The only problem that can come up is denial. Joba already has it, which is a big part of his problem.
The Yankees have to be the adults here. If he can find it at this level, great. If not, man up, send him down, and develop him. Don’t be in denial that he is getting better and quote some bogus stats to support your claim.
Nobody is going to buy it at this point.
That’s why, fair or not, that Detroit start after the break is the biggest start in Joba’s young career. It may just chart his path to where he is going to go for the rest of the year.
I was not “employed on a condition of probation” but as a counselor for these boys. The boys aged 14-17 were sent to my facility NY State Division for Youth on a condition of probation by the courts, I worked daily with a partner directly responsible for 12 boys in a facility of 60 boys, broken up into 5 groups of 12 boys each, 2 counselors etc..
SJ, do you really think the Yankees are thinking along those lines with Joba? If so, who do you see them targeting in the trade market? Washburn – forget it. The Ms demanded Austin Jackson for him last year; imagine what they’d go for this year? Isn’t Paul Byrd the former Indians pitcher who copped to using steroids? No thanks…….
SJ44, I disagree about your point that the Det start is make or break for Joba. A lot of people said the same thing prior to last night’s start and yet here we are. I think the Yankees will run him out there every five days until he approaches his innings limit and then move him to the pen. Same plan as before.
RhapsdoyInBlue,
Avoid the debate. You didn’t come as cheap stereotyping anyone except to the ultra sensitive know it all’s in here who think they police the blog.
I actually appreciate your perspective since I’ve always heard the conjecture of what goes on in native american communities. I’ve seen films and documentaries on the subject that are very interesting.
Whether that has anything to do with what is happening to Joba we don’t know.
But it’s not out of line to suggest it as a theory.
There are worse theories than that posted here on a daily basis.
GreenBeret7
I think maybe you’ve reading too much on history and not enough on behavior problems.
His DWI is no reason for suspicion there is a problem?
His mother’s drug/alcohol history?
You would a everyone a favor knocking off your condescending BS, you have no idea who you’re talking to.
GLove,
The team is disgusted with him. Guys on the team, already tiring of his act, would welcome a break from him if he can’t get it together.
Especially the veteran players. They want to win and he’s not giving them a chance to win. They are also sick of his lack of accountability. That ticks off some guys more than his awful pitching.
Betsy,
There was no harm in Aceves starting the other day. Its one game before the break and they didn’t want to change a lot since they are playing very well.
The ASB gives them a chance to figure things out.
The Joba start is more of a problem because they continue to hope he can give them something more than he is giving them. So far, no dice.
Girardi will never rip Joba, or any player publicly. That’s not his MO. Privately? The entire organization is seething.
But, you have to have a plan on how to fix him and the rotation. Getting mad doesn’t accomplish a whole heckuva lot.
I think they will make every effort to find a starter ASAP. If they have the goods to get Halladay, they will pull the trigger. If not, there are other guys they can find to fill the back end of the rotation.
JMO but, I believe the back end of the rotation will look different than it does now the day after the trade deadline.
I think we will have 2 new starters in it after the deadline.
Paul Byrd copped to using HGH. Same as Andy. He’s an off speed pitcher so he wasn’t using roids to throw fast.
Last year he averaged 6 innings per start and walked 34 guys in 180 innings.
I’ll repeat that; 34 walks in 180 innings.
If he could pitch 6 innings per start and not walk people and throw strikes on this team he’d be very effective.
The debate over Joba is very interesting, but we are in a pennant race right now, and like SJ said, we need more consistency out of whomever is our 5th starter. Do I trade Joba Chamberlain for Roy Halladay? NO! Halladay is no guarantee of anything, while Chamberlain guarantees some kind of future success, this year, or certainly next.
Anyway, we have a game to win today! Come on Yanks! I am so tired of watching the Angles kick their butts every year. It is time for Andy … Andy … Andy to step up and do the job!
GO YANKS!
SJ,
Would the players rather see Igawa get the starts than Joba?
Be honest.
I’m just going on what’s in the organization that could fill his slot w/o weakening the pen.
Paul Byrd copped to using HGH. Same as Andy. He’s an off speed pitcher so he wasn’t using roids to throw fast.
Last year he averaged 6 innings per start and walked 34 guys in 180 innings.
I’ll repeat that; 34 walks in 180 innings.
If he could pitch 6 innings per start and not walk people and throw strikes on this team he’d be very effective.
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He also gave up 31 HRs, and he is a soft tossing RIGHTY and would be pitching New Yankee Stadium. Pass
SJ
I respect your opinion a lot, But I think, and hope you are overreacting.
“If he shows improvement, even if he just shows he’s willing to respond to coaching, work with his catcher”
Personally, I thought he did those things last night. His pace, His aggressiveness especially with nobody on, were much better. Runners on base different story. He is struggling, and his defense did not help him. Not an excuse, a fact. Things snowballed on him, it happens. There were some positives, if you don’t blind yourself with all the negatives.
As bad as Joba has been, he’s been a lot better then Wang. If Wang comes back, and struggles what do we do with him?
I agree the results weren’t there, and it was, and has been painful to watch, But some wise man once said, patience is a virtue. Patience with Joba will be rewarded.
One could argue that Joba has been insanely consistent over his last few starts – they know exactly what they’re going to get.
(Just trying to make light of the subject for a bit.
)
Jerkface,
Who else could we get to be a back of a rotation starter that wouldn’t cost a single prospect?
Pedro? Glavine?
Anyone else we have to trade something for.
At some point in time the old saw “young and Inexperienced” should give way to reality. Isn’t Tim Lincecum, last year’s NL Cy Young winner of similar age and experience?…perhaps a year apart. It’s getting quite trying to listen to management spew this rather silly pablum.
There is no way Omar Minaya has a job next year…
Jeff,
Not if he keeps pitching like this because 4+ inning starts will not only get him to any innings limit, he isn’t giving the team a chance to win.
The team winning trumps Joba’s innings. He can get innings in Scranton, learn how to pitch, and be better for it. If he is going to get his innings in with the Yankees, he has to help them win games.
The record in his starts is deceiving. You can’t keep expecting the team to continue to bail him out with comeback victories and 4-5 inning stints out the bullpen every fifth day.
That stuff catches up with you after awhile.
His pitching line is, U-G-L-Y this year.
Its going to get tougher and tougher to run him out there if he keeps pitching like this and they begin losing ground in the race. That’s all I’m saying.
As far as his “expectations”, nobody is asking Joba to be something he’s not. Nobody wants or expects him to lead this staff.
However, if you can’t see the 6th inning more than just a few times, and can’t hold 4 run leads, you can’t be a starting pitcher for long with the Yankees.
SJ – and I agree with not ripping a player in public. What purpose does that serve? It embarrasses the player for one…..and other players will notice that (and who wants to play for a manager who embarrasses them). As long as the Yankees are not unaware of their issues, then I’m fine….
G Love, those are astounding walk/innings pitched #s. We need someone to give decent (not spectacular) innings, so I suppose he’d be as good as any. Didn’t he retire?
RhapsodyInBlue
July 11th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
GreenBeret7
I think maybe you’ve reading too much on history and not enough on behavior problems.
His DWI is no reason for suspicion there is a problem?
His mother’s drug/alcohol history?
You would a everyone a favor knocking off your condescending BS, you have no idea who you’re talking to.
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I’ve dealt with behavior issues, including drugs, alcohol, psychological issues in the military for 35 plus years. I and others in my position dealt with every soldier with a problem for ever, and, these weren’t kids. They were adults and smart enough to try avoiding any and every dodge in the book.
So, “knock off your condescending BS, you have no idea who you’re talking to.” LFF. I don’t care who I’m “talking to.”
Last night is a good example of how deceiving Joba’s ERA is. An error is made, and then Joba continues to get whacked with the resulting runs considered unearned. ERA can be misleading and in this case it is.
Betsy,
No. Paul Byrd was a free agent and was waiting until after June 10 to sign since if he signed prior to that the team that signed him would lose a compensation draft pick to Boston.
From what I know he still wants to play/pitch and was waiting for offers.
That said, it could take him a month or more to get ready to pitch so he might not be a good fit, but I would support his signing since he’s not going to walk people.
He gives up hits and he’ll give up runs but he’ll get the team in the 6th most nights and give them a chance to win.
I believe the NYY will get a SP and back end of BP help by 7/31. No blockbusters, just good solid pitchers. They can’t go with 3 somewhat shaky SP (Joba , Andy & #5 whomever that is). What was once a strength, SP depth, has vanished with CMW & IPK on DL and PH and Ace in the pen. If they don’t shore up the SP they won’t have a pen left by September. I’d like to see PH back in the rotation, but with his pen success, and Bruney’s struggles that won’t happen until next year.
It’s probably not a coincidence that Joba leads the Yankees’ pitchers with the most unearned runs allowed.
If we had a healthy Wang in the rotation (pitching like the Wang of old) to go along with CC, AJ and the sometimes gutty/gross Andy, the Jobber starting pitching roller coaster of 2009 might have been a bit easier to take.
I just hope things get straightened out.
Brian Bannister is on the market GLove. He’s an upgrade.
There are other guys who will come up between now and the 31st.
Tarheel,
Girardi came out to the mound, told him to, “Concentrate on THIS hitter”, and on the next pitch, Joba spins a get over curveball that gets hit for a 3 run HR to tie that game.
That’s not being coachable. In fact, he did the opposite of what Girardi wanted from him. Not the first time, I might add.
As soon as guys reached base last night, his pace slowed, he didn’t locate, and the same stuff went on all over again.
He threw the ball well in the first inning last night.
After that, he was progressively worse, despite being staked to a 4 run lead. In other words, he pitched the same way he did in his last start against the Blue Jays. That’s not showing any improvement. Its a big problem because they need the guy to show more and he isn’t.
There is nobody else to blame. People have blamed 5 catchers, 2-3 Hall of Fame players, the manager, the GM, the pitching coach, Cody Ransom, Global Warming and the recession for Joba Chamberlain’s struggles.
There is nobody else left but Joba.
Personally, I hope Harlan kicks this kids’ butt during the ASB and he digs deep, grows up, and comes back a new guy for the second half. The Yankees need him.
However, if he comes back and continues to be uncoachable, uncatchable and unaccountable, he’s got to go to Scranton to figure it out.
The playoff race takes precedent over his feelings and his innings limits.
In addition to working on his mechanics and regaining his skill sets, he must regain his “edge” which, curiously, is his arrogance…that’s who he is and it cannot be taken away from him. His 8th innings wonders of 07 were underscored by his attitude.
Can Girardi and staff accomplish what some might say are incompatible objectives?
GLove, thanks……I guess we’ll have to see how it plays out. Cash has surprised us before. This is a really good team – it would be a shame if they didn’t at least make the playoffs and give themselves a shot at the brass ring.
Look up Joba’s run line….Compare his earned runs to his total allowed runs…..I’m certain there’s a sizable gap…..That does not show up when people start spilling about stats, but it speaks volumns about the character and heart of the pitcher…He’s not picking up his team….Joba has been given sizable leads as of late, and all that is asked is to turn the lead over to the pen in the 7th…He’s not even getting past the 5th, and gives up the advantage on the scoreboard……Question is, does Joba have heart, or just a sack of puss instead….Your teammates want to know …….
Pat M:
http://www.puristbleedspinstri.....ve-it.html
CC and AJ have both allowed 3 Unearned Runs; Andy 6 and Joba 10.
No “regular” in the bullpen has allowed more than 3 unearned runs.
Its hard to have an edge when you are getting your butt kicked.
I agree, he pitches passively. That’s because he’s not having success.
Only a dunce convinces himself he is “tough” when he is getting his butt kicked. Most people, even those outwardly confident, lose confidence and an edge when you are getting smoked.
I think he will the “edge” back when his results get better. That’s usually how it shakes out.
With Joba struggling and Wang out, it’s easy to be pessimistic.
There are 76 games remaining, or 15 starts for each of the rotation pitchers. If the Yankees can win 70% of the games started by their #1, #2, and #3 starters (CC, AJ, Andy) and 50% of the games started by the #4 and #5 pitchers, the Yankees will win 96/97 games. Is that enough to win the division? Maybe not. Is it enough to win the Wild Card? Probably.
So, does that make everybody feel better?
I’d certainly sign up for Brian Bannister for the back end of our rotation.
I like the idea of having a off speed type guy to mix in with some of the power arms.
It makes the power arms in the bullpen look that much faster when they come in late to close out games.
Sweet Lou: Wouldn’t it be something if 96 wins was not enough to make the Postseason!?
Jorge may well have been correct (albeit for the wrong reasons) when he said in the off-season that Joba belongs in the bullpen and not in the starting rotation. My sense is that the decision was made by Cashman and his Generation Tre nonsense, which was to be his legacy. Rather than acknowledge his faulty assessment, Cashman may well include Joba in a package.
Wrap your heads around this people: Hughes will be stretched out just as Aceves was. With both Hughes and Aceves in the starting rotation, the team can do whatever they want with Joba and won’t be overly dependent on a successful return from Wang.
Pat M,
That’s it in a nutshell and you know how guys in the clubhouse feel about that stuff!
David Cone made a great point the other night discussing unearned runs allowed by a pitcher.
He said the hitters on the Dynasty Team would look at that number and it would tell them if the pitcher was a guy who could be easily rattled.
Coney found the guys with larger unearned run numbers to their line, were guys that rattled easily.
That’s Joba this year. He doesn’t pick up his teammates and they have carried him in most of his starts this year. That’s why they have a winning record in his starts despite his few decisions.
That has to change in the second half. That’s on Joba.
Give it a rest, GB7. You’re just finding something/someone to take issue with. Go take a walk or drink some warm milk to settle yourself down.
If Brian Bannister is available and wouldn’t cost much I wouldn’t mind giving him a shot.
You find out more about a player when they struggle than when they succeed. We will really find out what Joba will be as a player as he goes through this right now.
Derek Jeter always had a reputation of being a tough guy in the game. You know what cemented it? Not the rings. Not the WS MVP. Not the commericals.
0-32 cemented it. When guys around the game saw how he dug deep, got out of that slump and STILL had a good year, that cemented him as a tough guy in the game by his peers.
To be that mentally tough to overcome that slump, especially after all the success he had in the game prior to it, that blew guys in the game away.
That’s what you have to bring to the mound every fifth day to succeed. Anything less isn’t going to get it done at the major league level. Its too competitive.
“Compare his earned runs to his total allowed runs…..I’m certain there’s a sizable gap…..That does not show up when people start spilling about stats, but it speaks volumns about the character and heart of the pitcher…”
Agreed. The notion of an “unearned” run is misdirected. Unearned runs may not be completely the pitcher’s “fault” but the idea that they are completely not his fault or “unearned” is wrong as well.
The pitcher almost always contributes in a substanstial fashion to an unearned run. Maybe not as much as an earned run – but still alot.
And Joba has not been good there.
He’s not pitching well and his ERA – for many, many reasons – isn’t indicative of how poorly he’s pitching.
Weaver didn’t lose to the Yankees on 1 May, he took a ND. Fuentes took the loss when Posada hit that walk off 2 run single.
I hate waiting for Fox games to start.
Joba obviously isn’t the same pitcher as last year. His fastball is 4mph slower. It affects everything about how he pitches. Reminds me of Hughes the first year plus after his injury. Hughes is just now reaching 96 again and 94 on a fairly consistant basis. Alot of that may have to do with him pitching only 1 ining at a time, but I don’t buy that as the only reason. He never hit 96 for over a year after his injury. Maybe, hopefully, Joba will generate the kind of power he used to in the near future. Not much anyone can do about it as he is in the rotation for the foreseeable future.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
July 11th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Pat M:
http://www.puristbleedspinstri.....ve-it.html
CC and AJ have both allowed 3 Unearned Runs; Andy 6 and Joba 10.
No “regular” in the bullpen has allowed more than 3 unearned runs.
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6 of Joba’s unearned runs have came in his last two starts. He is struggling right now. I dont see how that is stat is a big deal. Before the last 2 starts he has only given up 4 unearned runs. Joba has hit a rough patch but I think he will turn it around the second half. I think the allstar break is coming at a good time for Joba.
Hell Rebecca, ask and you will recieve…Man you’re closing the gap on CB,”the Numbers Guru”…..However you supplied numbers to support what I was attemting to convey…And then SJ backs it up with aDavid Cone reference….However that’s the point that will drive your teammates away…..Just think what Alex felt last night….I hit a dinger to get us up 5-1..Then I screw up a rountine throw, and my pitcher doesn’t help me out, he serves up a tee-shot driver into the Bo Jackson section of Angels Stadium ( What a shot by the way )….It just kills you….
I missed that comment by Cone, but I agree with it and I was just about to post the same thing. Unearned runs are sort of like the Get out of Jail Free card in Monopoly. Shouldn’t the only run that is unearned be the runner that got on base because of the error? Even that is iffy – there’s no rule in baseball that says the pitcher has to make a bad pitch to the next hitter (a bloop is another story). In any case, making all subsequent runs unnearned is basically saying that if the error hadn’t happened, then the pitcher would have gotten out of the inning unscathed. I don’t see how anyone can make that judgment. It’s great for pitchers, though – like relievers letting inherited runners score, their ERAs go untouched.
GreenBeret7
Humble too.
“6 of Joba’s unearned runs have came in his last two starts. He is struggling right now. I dont see how that is stat is a big deal. Before the last 2 starts he has only given up 4 unearned runs. Joba has hit a rough patch but I think he will turn it around the second half. I think the allstar break is coming at a good time for Joba.”
I would think only three of those UER were charged to Joba last night and the other three the responsibility of Melancon and Bruney, no?
“Hell Rebecca, ask and you will recieve…Man you’re closing the gap on CB,”the Numbers Guru”…..However you supplied numbers to support what I was attemting to convey…And then SJ backs it up with aDavid Cone reference….However that’s the point that will drive your teammates away….”
Ah, I am getting better at the numbers thing, but I highly doubt I oughta be in the same breath as CB and SJ–I’ve learned much of what I know from the two of them alone!
I don’t care who I’m “talking to.” – Green Barrette
—
very telling
As is your use of “Green Barrette”, Bret.
From Rotoworld.. lol:
Mets signed infielder Angel Berroa to a minor league contract and assigned him to Triple-A Buffalo.
A huge 24 hours for the Amazins’. The former Rookie of the Year batted just .136/.174/.182 in 21 games with the Yankees this season. He was designated for assignment on June 24 and released on Tuesday. With the rash of injuries on the Mets roster, he’s a good bet to see time in the bigs again soon. And that’s not a good thing.
# Angel (OPPC) – A tale told by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing July 11th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
As is your use of “Green Barrette”, Bret.
—
He deserves it.
I know you are, but what am I.
Children, play nice.
I’m really hoping Harlan can get through to him. He may be the only guy who can.
The one thing Joba CANT do under ANY circumstances, is play the “everybody is against me” card.
No player, not even Derek Jeter, has gotten so much fan equity from Yankee fans, so quickly than Joba Chamberlain.
You go down the list of people fans have blamed for his struggles and its filled with HOF’ers, MVP’s, all stars and very successful, (more successful than Joba has been) people in the game.
He’s had a TON of fan equity. Folks want results. At least progress if not better results. They are getting neither so far this year.
This isn’t about “Yankees fans turning on Joba” or any of that other nonsense.
This is about being coachable, catchable and accountable.
You do that, NY loves you. Ask Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera.
You don’t, and the love affair ends quickly.
Joba is a kid. However, he’s also an adult.
Old enough to vote. Old enough to go to war. Old enough to get pinched for DUI. Old enough to draw a seven figure paycheck (counting endorsements) for playing professional baseball in NYC.
With that comes responsibility. Can’t pull out the “I’m a kid” card when you don’t like hearing about it.
If he wants to be a successful major league player JOBA, not anybody else, has to change.
Frankly, starting at the ASB. If not, he has to go to Scranton. Its that simple.
If he can’t learn it at the big league level, riding the buses will force you to learn it.
YES! no buck or mccarver today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
I think it’s unfortunately short-sighted to keep Hughes in the pen this year. We have a gaping hole in the starting rotation and we’re not going to slot Hughes in? After all of the improvement he showed earlier this season? We can stretch him out pitches-wise during the All Star Break and have him ready to take Wang’ spot when the second half rolls around. Why in the world would you trade for someone when you have a guy like Hughes in house?
The response to that is always that Hughes is doing well in the pen. Sure, he is. It’s because he’s a good pitcher, starting pitcher and 8th inning pitcher, and he’s going to do well no matter where he is. This is the same Joba argument all over again. Hughes with more innings is far more valuable than Hughes with a couple innings a week. Let’s not fool ourselves here. We’re taking a big risk in keeping him in the pen and stunting his growth. The kid is finally turning it around.
And if the insist on keeping Hughes in the pen, which I’m sure they will, then we need to let Aceves get the first shot at the rotation, get him stretched out to 90+ pitches. We’re not going to trade for a big named SP and Aceves is as good as the other trash out there, like Jarrod Washburn.
SJ
Harlan kicking his butt is a great idea. Make it happen. With your contacts, a well placed phone call maybe in order.
Doreen
July 11th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Children, play nice.
============
But old man GB7 gets a break, as do all octogenarians.
As I can see, he is now absent.
Probably napping.
Or cutting coupons.
Where are we watching the game? Not ESPN. Not YES. Not My9.
FOX
Wow thanks alex!
A-Rod is clutch.
Let’s hope the starter doesn’t piss it away.
I’m still bitter.
Aleeeex
Arod loves hitting in Anaheim!
As soon as I turned on FOX I see A-Rod with a 2 run homer.
I’m guessing the price of starters on the market will force the Yankees to backtrack and push Hughes back into the rotation. They may have no other choice unless they want to get fleeced.
I figure if they’re going to trade some very valuable prospects, might as well aim for Halladay rather than let the Mariners waste the Yankees time by asking for the likes of Austin Jackson.
Hi:
Please stop this stupid fighting with each other, OK. Abide by our posting guidelines or go elsewhere. No-name calling, etc.
The usual suspects are at fault and I’m tired of it. Just stop.
“But old man GB7 gets a break, as do all octogenarians.
As I can see, he is now absent.
Probably napping.
Or cutting coupons.”
Or plotting your demise!
I don’t blame you Pel, yesterday was brutal. But I would like to think Andy could hold his composure better than Mr. “Good Stuff”
Sorry Pete
SJ,
You can explain it anyway you like but the fans do turn on everyone who struggles.
Derek Jeter got booed a few years back. Teixeira got booed in April. A-Rod still gets booed more than any other Yankee.
And yes, Mo Rivera got booed in April and early May. It was Posada’s fault when Burnett and other pitchers struggled.
It’s all nonsense.
That’s why I couldn’t care less if the fans boo Joba or turn on him when he struggles.
That’s par for the course in Yankeeland. I think you’re way off base on that.
Yankee fans would never do what Red Sox fans did for David Ortiz when he struggled.
Standing ovations after every at-bat when you’re hitting .150 on the season?
Would never happen. Not even to Derek Jeter.
Pettitte should be able to hold this lead for at least 3 batters (wishful thinking on my part, I know).
Strike 3 to Matsui….down and well off the plate.
These umpires aren’t even remotely competent anymore.
SJ,
you would think the umps are against the Yanks after that incident last week.
Pel,
Arod’s clutch??? since when?
and getem Pete!!!
Odds on at least one bad call going against the Yankees? It’s pathetic, but now it’s a surprise when they get a call right.
Man, I hope Andy can give us at least 6 innings…..and also not give these runs back.
oh come on Andy
Lead off walks not good.
Anybody know where blocked out people can watch the game?
SJ,
Is that really you?
Or is it an impostor?
Thats exactly what I meant, Doreen.
I actually have the game on TV today, surprisingly.
“And A-Rod INJECTS himself into the top 10 of the career home run list, tying Rafael Palmeiro with 569 home runs.”
Not even funny, Pete.
GF,
that’s not what I mean. I am saying I don’t want Joba to complain about the treatment or play the me against the world card.
Sometimes, players do that when they aren’t being honest with themselves about their own performance.
Not saying Joba will do it. Just saying I don’t want to see him go there.
Gardy!
He was out!
Umpires suck. clearly out.
Tex caught the ball between Figgins and the bag so he has to be out.
Another ump OUT OF POSITION BLOWING CALLS AGAINST THE YANKEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
disgusting
no accountability
He was out. I loathe the umpires even more than usual this week.
He was out by a foot. I used to be of the opinion this all averages out but these past couple games I am getting increasingly angered by umpire calls. Good pick off attempt Andy since you know you DID actually pick him off.
seriously, what is up w/these umps?
And the Yanks get skrewed again on a umps blown call.. Throw beat him by at least a step!
Another great call by the umpires. The umpire wasn’t even looking at the play. Honestly how often do they get their eyes checked? Enough is enough already. They get paid tons of money and get calls right 50% of the time. Pathetic..
The more cynical side of me thinks that Fox is aware of the Yankees record at the Angels stadium, and couldn’t resist showing such a match-up, lol.
Wow, awesome catch by GGBG and WOEFUL call by the umpire. What exactly are these mongooses being paid to do? Get in position!!
Laura try this:
http://atdhe.net/watch-baseball.php?i=12
awful officiating is becoming more common place in all sports.
Why all the hate on A-Rod, Pete? You never say anything about Pettitte “injecting himself.” Never. It’s a double standard.
Another blown call. Seven this week against the Yankees.
Seven! Inexcusable.
Can the Yankees file a general grievance against the umps? This is getting out of hand.
Ofcourse the runner was out and can now score on a single…
26th stolen base only he was picked off a couple of pitches ago. Ugh this shouldn’t make me so annoyed.
That call was OBVIOUS, he was out by a whole step.
But they all “even out,” right? How about these guys do their jobs and stop whining about how much pressure they are under?
They don’t want replay, yet they refuse to get the calls right, which continues to weaken their case against replay.
And for people who say the calls that go against the Yankees are made up for by the ones that go their favor, watch the games. Calls do not go for the Yankees anywhere near the amount they go against them. Key plays have been missed nearly exclusively against the Yankees in the last 2 weeks, and not just 1 or 2 plays in a game, but 3 or 4.
That’s just unacceptable.
yanks able to overcome that ump
Thanks, S.A. I ended up finding http://channelsurfing.net/watch-mlb.php?w=1.
16 pitches for Andy
And all the calls go against the Yankees – coincidence?
Woops Andy didn’t pick him off I meant good throw by Gardner.
Maybe the home-plate ump thought Figgins had to be tagged out?
Laura, who’s going to listen……Bud? I don’t think so. I’ve never, ever been one to believe the umps have it in for the Yankees, but it’s getting harder to continue to defend them
It’s me. That will keep the troll away.
Derek should just apologize for “misremembering” what Marty Foster said and maybe some of these calls will go the other way.
It’s becoming comical now…
I really have no idea how anyone can defend not expanding instant replay to calls on the bases.
Give managers a limited amount of challenges like in football, and we’re all set.
YankeesWFAN: A-Rod is now 5 for 12 vs. Jered Weaver with 4 HR.
Does anybody think that allowing Managers the baseball equivalent of the “Red Flag” in Football would improve the game?
Let the Managers “challenge” calls on the field?
How exactly is the home plate umpire in a better position to call a play at second and overrule than the first base umpire?
Incredible.
every time the umps blow a call, take a shot.
let’s have some fun with this.
http://i685.photobucket.com/al.....163041.jpg
The ball is just about in the glove now…….wow.
I know this isn’t a shock to many here, but I would love for Cashman to acquire Brian Banister……Andy works around the leadoff walk, very good …..Get to Weaver early, he gets tougher each spin thru the lineup…..
AROD looks very comfortable at the plate, I’m excited to see his 2nd half….he loves playing in Anaheim
XXX – I don’t think there’s enough alcohol in my house to start playing that.
And I have a pretty well stocked supply here.
They are bad all over baseball. Two blown calls in the sox game last night. Cost the sox a run.
They are just bad in general. Not against certain teams.
Hinske!
Good shot, Hinske!
You came to play.
I guess because we’re just watching the Yanks. I don’t like any teams (yes, even the Sox) getting screwed out of a run or an inning based on bad calls. These guys are simply incompetent…..but nothing will be done because Bud doesn’t care
That was a thing of beauty Hinske.
Bravo!
Hinske!
Hinske!!!
hello hello Eric
I’d say Hinske is a pretty nice pickup by Cash.
is this going to be one of those days when everyone complains that we only score if we hit homeruns?
I think it’s going to take a blown call screwing a team out of a playoff victory to change the rules or ensure the umpires are truly accountable for their mistakes.
I know that’s happened before, but in this day of HDTV, online video, etc it won’t stand again.
Man, you could see Hinske waiting on that curveball for forever before he came out of his shoes to pounce on it.
Nice hitting Hinske…He should play against every righty instead of Swish..
Eric Hinske has started two games as a Yankee and now has 2 HR. Eric Hinske = Shelley Duncan?
And to think, Eric Hinske wasn’t worth picking up. What could Cash have been thinking?
that swing reminded me of old Yankee Jim Spencer.
No Rebecca, Eric Hinkse actually has a track record of success.
“I think it’s going to take a blown call screwing a team out of a playoff victory to change the rules or ensure the umpires are truly accountable for their mistakes.”
Wasn’t the call in the Rockies game that got them into the playoffs 2 years ago bad enough? lol
*giggles* Just a joke people
Jered Weaver is the new Bartolo Colon for Arod.
Rebecca, Do not sell yourself short…..You’re right there with anyone here….My comparison to CB was how fast you had the numbers….I’m always amazed in how quickly he compiles info and of course he breaks it down so some of us non-numbers guys can understand what he’s showing us….As for SJ, there’s only one SJ…Just as there’s only one GB ( thankfully ) & Randy I ( The Original Tin Cup )…Lot’s of diversified personalities here…..Nick in SF & Bo Knows are unique…….
***Hola July 11th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
I think it’s going to take a blown call screwing a team out of a playoff victory to change the rules or ensure the umpires are truly accountable for their mistakes.***
Well, at least they record and monitor the fidelity of the strike zone using Quest tech and have begun allowing replay, ever so slowly.
You never want to make big changes that can radically alter the game; too big a risk.
Again, there are worse umpires in this world: In Japan, there is a special strike zone for players who have “wa” (ie Japanese players) and another strike zone for everyone else.
Yeah, things are ALOT worse elsewhere.
I was hoping they’d pick up Hinske last off season. Better late than never, lol.
What do we want from Andy today….6 innings?….I’ll say a good old fashion 7 inning solid performance, please….so we can forget about Joba’s failures last night
Good Andy!
Good 1-2-3 inning from Pettite; love to see him get through 7 today after Joba’s travails last night.
29 pitches for Andy
Take notes Jobber
Actually Eric Hinske=Kevin James
Cashman needs to find a right handed Hinske to replace the missing Nady
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
July 11th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Eric Hinske has started two games as a Yankee and now has 2 HR. Eric Hinske = Shelley Duncan?
———————————————————-
No, Eric Hinkse is a major league quality player, not a AAA star who has shown he can’t cut it in the bigs.
Nice two innings by Andy, so far.
Outstanding blog entry by Tyler Kepner on Joba.
Worth a read.
Pat: http://www.baseballreference.com
When Montero makes it to the bigs I am TOTALLY sponsoring his page.
Andy’s pitching well but he almost always has 1 bad inning, just expect it and don’t complain when it happens, he will pitch through it and most likely be the winning pitcher today.
Is playing as bad as his #’s. I thought he was the next Rod Carew
Well the problem is, a blown call ALREADY has cost a team a trip to the playoffs.
In the 2007 one game playoff, the Padres lost to the Rockies on a play at the plate, in which the player clearly never touched home plate, was tagged out, and called safe on the grounds that he touched home plate. Replays confirmed that he clearly missed home plate.
It took all those missed home run calls in a short span last year to get instant replay for home runs, but these guys are consistently bad across the board. Now that replay systems are in place, it has to be expanded, and the umpires should welcome the tool.
You would think that someone would want a tool that helps them do their job better, but these guys are so full of themselves and think they are above the game. It would make them “look bad” to have to consult the replay and admit their mistake, despite the fact that they ALREADY look terrible when they make a mistake and refuse to consult replays.
“Actually Eric Hinske=Kevin James”
Don’t you mean Kevin James on slimfast?
Eric Hinske hit 20 HR in the AL East last year in 380 at bats.
And then he was largely ignored this winter.
He signed for $1.5M with the Bucs.
Yesterday Omar Minaya trades Church for the horrific Jeff Franceour.
How Minaya would want to trade for Francoeur while not bothering to make sure he got Hinske is beyond me.
Kendrick Sorry
“Wasn’t the call in the Rockies game that got them into the playoffs 2 years ago bad enough? lol”
How about AJ Pierzynski going to 1st against the Angels?
The answer, obviously, in both cases is “no”. Amazing, isn’t it?
Nice inning by Pettitte, BTW.
Joba is a starter. The difference between this year and last year is Dave Eiland (he did nothing last year, but he is doing less than nothing this year).
Joba is right, his stuff is good, but Pete is also right, he is not challenging hitters. Instead of acting like a 23 year old power-pitcher, he is acting like a 43-year old junk-ball pitcher (no confidence in his stuff).
That is a Dave Eiland issue. Its not just Joba either, its Chien “his stuff is good in the pen but bad in the game” Wang. Phil Hughes figured it out on his own (but is stuck in the pen)and the young relievers are not getting any help from Eiland either.
They have had some good swings so far on Weaver.
Jeter just missed that pitch.
When it’s hot and humid like this in Anaheim, the ball really carries in that ballpark.
“You never want to make big changes that can radically alter the game; too big a risk.”
When the alternative is more blown calls, I’m not seeing any risk at all.
“How Minaya would want to trade for Francoeur while not bothering to make sure he got Hinske is beyond me.”
The trade for Francouer made no sense for the Mets. They already have Tatis and Sheffield, both right handed hitters. So they trade one of (if not the only) left handed outfielders they have for, ANOTHER right handed bat.
And Omar Minaya had a quote on the trade saying something along the lines of “we were impressed with how many games he’s able to play”
Pat M.,
Thanks for the kind words but now you’re selling yourself very short. No one knows the game here better than you. You are the resident scout on Lohud.
I’m always impressed with how you can make so many astute points in such short posts. That is definitely not a talent that I possess in any way!
plate ump is generous
SJ44 – you beat me to it, re: Tyler Kepner’s piece. But Kepner is a good writer/reporter.
CB – I said the same thing when the Yanks traded for Hinske – why didn’t the Mets do that? Now, I recall seeing Cash shmoozing with the Pitt braintrust two STs ago, in Tampa. So maybe Cash laid the groundwork for a personal relationship that translated into first dibs. I don’t know. All I do know is that Cash made that deal, and Omar deals for Jeff Francouer. Go figure.
“How about AJ Pierzynski going to 1st against the Angels?”
I had entirely forgotten about that terrible call! Thank you for the memories of more terrible umpiring. I still think they don’t compare at all to the call in the 1985 World Series between the Royals and Cardinals and the blown call by Don Denkinger. That was probably the most famous blown call in sports history.
It’s not a Dave Eiland issue. Stop shifting the blame.
Same pitching coach, better results last year.
This year, same pitching coach, out of shape pitcher.
Stop the blame game.
It’s all on Joba and nobody else.
“How Minaya would want to trade for Francoeur while not bothering to make sure he got Hinske is beyond me.”
Omar in is press conf. said the Mets needed righted handed power because they have much lefty power. Yes that was the reason.
Watching a Yankee game in Anaheim reminds me of an NBA game.
Your team can have a 20 point first half lead – but you don’t feel comfortable. You know it’s going to come down to the last two minutes in the end…
I wish the Yankees could jump out to a 3-0 lead and then go into a pre-24 second clock – four corner stall.
Exactly. I can’t understand why he wasn’t snapped up by some team, CB. He was a pretty useful acquisition for both the Red Sox and the Devil Rays over the last two years.
Weaver at 50 pitches
Come on Andy strikes..Ofcourse 2 of those pitches are strikes and aren’t called…
Matt, the play that should have provoked instant replay was the play at first in the Cards/Royals world series that cost the Cards the title.
If that doesn’t bring it on then maybe nothing will.
Personally the longer the game for me the better so I can sit through 3-4 challenges per game.
“Omar in is press conf. said the Mets needed righted handed power because they have much lefty power. Yes that was the reason.”
So Omar Minaya is dyslexic?
#8 and #9 hitters have been Andy’s Waterloo all year.
Leadoff walk to the #8 hitter with a 3 run lead. Brutal.
Ump squeezing Andy a bit here.. Weaver though getting some nice calls!
“CB July 11th, 2009 at 4:49 pm”
Yeah, I’ve heard some things about Minaya.
He’s apparently very upset that all of his Latino stars have gone down. Apparently, there’s no point in having your Latino Dream Team win without the Latinos, so he immediately closed up shop and has begun shifting pieces without regard to the season.
It’s not that Minaya was avoiding Hinske, CB. It’s that Minaya would never have thought of acquiring Hinske in the first place because his GM instincts are so focused on the Latino market.
Make of that what you will. But when you take that into account, it really shouldn’t surprise you that he completely missed the train with Hinske, and got stuck with trading their best defensive outfielder left to their top division rival.
Andy needs to stop throwing with the side step. It makes his stuff worse and he doesn’t throw strikes when he does that. He cant worry that much with the rats on the bases.
No strike zone for Andy Pettitte, and leeway off the plate for Weaver. There’s a shock.
According to Gameday, 3 of the 4 balls in the Wood at bat were strikes, while the called first strike on Teixeira was not much closer to home plate than the 2nd pitch, called a ball.
DP and that’ll save Pettite some pitches.
Mike Everitt has been awful behind the plate so far.
Missed strike calls on both pitchers and he overruled Gorman on the DP play.
It’s only the third inning.
Six more innings for more screwups.
I’m glad to see Damon use two hands to make the catch!
47 pitches for Andy
Recently Damon looks like he is running on his tippy toes..
Got to keep scoring. Can’t trust any pitcher to hold leads against this team.
One bad inning, or an umpire outbreak of bad calls, and the momentum changes.
Watching Damon track and receive that fly ball, I suddenly remembered this article that was posted today at Bleacher Report.
The analogy for Damon is perfect for offense and defense and Melky’s is so abrupt, it’s perfect.
Has anyone seen this yet?
http://bleacherreport.com/arti.....as-animals
I’ve never seen Pettitte’s control as erratic as it has been this year. Not sure if it’s lack of control or if he’s trying to stay off of the plate and get the Glavine, Smolrz, Maddux strikes….8 inches off both sides of the plate.
Man, Andy looks like a different pitcher out there today…He’s certainly not afraid to come in a jam the right side hitters….He’s has to get over the Yankee Stadium Blues……CB, thanks…Can I have a raise ????
I read that bronx zoo article last night. Pretty funny
“So Omar Minaya is dyslexic?”
I don’t get it?
what happened to giving joba time to learn how to pitch?
it was a few weeks ago that some said that it is going to take time.
ups & downs.
did other great pitchers get much better in their first full year or was it the 2nd,3rd year??
what if joba turns into an ace next year?
what does all this complaining about him mean??
i think it is safe to say that it will take 1-2 years to see what we have with joba.
now some don’t wan’t to wait when before they were ripping others for being winers???
““So Omar Minaya is dyslexic?”
I don’t get it?”
He must get his righties and lefties mixed up, because he cannot in good conscience think he has any lefty power on that team.
Link to Kepner’s NY Times article on Joba
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....#more-9281
Ryan Church is no great shakes either. Maybe the Mets believe they can turn around Francouer’s hitting, like what happened to Andruw Jones in texas. Francouer, however is an excellent fielder.
I wonder if Scioscia doesn’t even worry when the Yanks put up a 3 or 4 run lead. He must look at it like 0-0, since he knows eventually the game will be tied. Whether it is an error, stolen base or another ump blown call.
***NYY626 July 11th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
I read that bronx zoo article last night. Pretty funny***
I also thought they had Pettite pinned PERFECTLY.
“He must get his righties and lefties mixed up, because he cannot in good conscience think he has any lefty power on that team.”
That’s what he said.
One thing I’ll say for the offense the last couple of weeks is they are really making the other team’s starters work.
Seems like every night the opposing starter is out by the 6th inning.
You win a lot of games that way with the underbelly of the opposing teams’ bullpens always getting exposed.
Joba won’t be an ace next year. Hope he can be functional.
If he can do, it’s improvement.
Forget the ace talk. It’s not close to happening yet, if at all.
Anybody that bellyaches about Cashman needs only to get on a No. 7 train in Queens and get off at Willets Point to see the absolute worst GM in baseball. Minaya is clueless.
Now that the Braves got Church, they can play 7 lefties in the lineup. Kotchman, Johnson, Jones, Church, McClouth, Anderson, and McCann.
Robi with RISP!!!!
RBI for Cano!!
Robbie hit with RISP!
Robbie says Ha!! to .206 w/ RISP
Hey, Cano got a hit with a man on. Robbie!!!
Nice hit by Cano…That was a big run to be able to bring in with 2 outs.
GF,
great point. Nice AB there for Robbie. Didn’t try to pull it and delivered a clutch hit.
Gardner might have had that ball hit by Cano.
Matthews has to be one of the Angels worst signings ever.
73 pitches for Weaver
Return Of Angel Berroa ?
Did the Mets really sign him ?
***Yankee Trader July 11th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Ryan Church is no great shakes either. Maybe the Mets believe they can turn around Francouer’s hitting, like what happened to Andruw Jones in texas. Francouer, however is an excellent fielder.***
Church’s range outstrips Francouer’s easily. It isn’t clear that he’s the better fielder; in fact I believe the Mets played Church in CF in place of Beltran. That’s a position Francouer has no hope of playing unless the Mets like seeing inside-the-park homeruns scored against them.
As for improving Francouer in Citifield, of all places, I think Mets fans (of which I am NOT one) will tell you that “Hojo” is NOT on equivalent to coach Jaramillo.
“Can I have a raise ????”
Sure Pat M. We’ll pay you the old school way – by the word!
Cano needs to stay at the bottom of the lineup. He is obviously more comfortable hitting there. Once he was moved down he started to hit again. There is no reason to mess with that again…
Terry #1 July 11th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
But he has a Cannon of an arm
1-1 pitch right down the middle at the knees, called a ball. This is ridiculous.
Leadoff double. Is this Andy’s bad inning?
Nice job Andy.. Team gives you runs and you start pulling a “joba”!
“Didn’t try to pull it and delivered a clutch hit.”
People are always commenting on how bad cano’s pitch selection and impatience are with men on base.
And they are bad – but they’re bad when the bases are empty also.
Pitch selection is part of it with Cano’s troubles with RISP. But this year an even bigger issue isn’t his pitch selection but with him trying to do too much at the plate with RISP. I think that’s his biggest fault. He’s constantly trying to pull outside pitches with men on base.
If he just tried to do less he’d drive in many more runs.
Here we go…2 pitches right over the plate. Andy really needs to come inside to lefties. They get way too comfortable against him because they know he doesn’t throw inside.
You hope this isnt another pitcher who can’t hold a 4 run lead.
Andy, get the ball down
***Brandon… I’M AWESOME ! July 11th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Return Of Angel Berroa ?
Did the Mets really sign him ?***
As has already been stated, Minaya has a fixation on Latino/Hispanic players. It makes no sense to people like me and you but it makes perfect sense for the Latino Dream Team.
SJ44
July 11th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Joba won’t be an ace next year. Hope he can be functional.
If he can do, it’s improvement.
Forget the ace talk. It’s not close to happening yet, if at all.
———————————————————–
didn’t you say that it takes time?
why the change??
is it his attitude,results???
why not go out & get another pitcher,put hughes back in the rotation & joba in the pen??
“UPDATE, 5:18 p.m.:
Meanwhile Michael Kay is calling the Fox booth and screaming, “Say he’s throwing a no-hitter! Say it!””
Thanks Pete. I liked it better when you were looking in the stands for hot babes.
Abreu never swung at the first pitch with the Yankees…
Pettitte not getting any calls on the corners. He pretty much has to throw it over the heart of the plate.
Abreu 19 SB’s, .400 w/RISP… He would look good in RF!! lol
Good column by Ty Kepner on Joba, thanks for the link.
I’m not a pitching coach, but Andy striking out Napoli on an 88 mph high fastball seems like Andy did some job setting him up.
I hope Joba, Phil are watching. There’s a big difference between throwing and pitching.
***# Ton Loc July 11th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Terry #1 July 11th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
But he has a Cannon of an arm***
Without question.
But Church is no slouch with his arm either. The big difference is in their UZR (which also takes into account arm strength). Church by a mile because at the end of the day, an OF with greater range will ALWAYS save you more runs than an OF with an equal differential in arm strength.
Fox announcers defending Joba.
phew. Not too bad. Go Andy!
Andy Pettitte = has composure.
Missed a couple of innings, but Andy looking pretty good?
Nice recovery by Pettitte to limit the damage.
Gardner got me nervous for a minute. The sun must be really bad.
GGardenhoser has an arm, they got to work w/ throwing mechanics for him. That way he stops lawn darting it.
Thats a nice bounceback inning for Andy.
Just have to keep adding on.
Abreu looked good in the outfield yesterday and he is swinging a consistently hot bat, too bad we got rid of him
Get on base, Gardner.
Ramey
Yes…
Hinske=Kevin James (on SlimFast)
Hopefully we can get our rabbit on base
Terry #1 July 11th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
good point as there is alot of ground to cover at citi.
Brandon… I’M A WE SOME !
Gardenhoser has an arm, they got to work w/ throwing mechanics for him. That way he stops lawn darting it.
LOL, but true
It’s a very bad sun field. One of the toughest in the league.
No Abreu wouldn’t have looked good in RF because he’s a bad OF and it would have cost the Yankees 16 million to keep him because he would have had to have been offered arbitration.
I still can’t believe he’s in the league leaders for AL Rookies
So I went food shopping, as I mentioned earlier, and my supermarket had the Turkey Hill Yankees ice cream. I bought one of each variety and I just entered the sweepstakes! I never do things like that, but I figured, why not??
I like these announcers. What a breath of fresh air to not have you know who and his cohort and their very obnoxious, knowitallness.
Today’s game is one of those classic examples of getting “big hits.” Weaver has only given up 3 hits, but the Yankees have turned that into 4 runs, with 3 of the runs coming with 2 outs.
Headed into the 2005 draft the Angels loved a high school pitcher who was throwing in their back yard in southern california. They had the 12th pick in the draft that year, IIRC.
That pitcher was Phil Hughes.
Instead of taking Hughes, however, they decided to take a college pitcher who was falling because signing bonus demands and because he was a Boras guy.
That pitcher was Jeff Weaver.
Weaver is having a nice career but there’s no way I’d want him rather than Hughes.
Nice hitting DJ
Brandon,
That’s because he’s sneaky awesome!
Just missed a homerun. Yankees hitting the ball hard off of Weaver.
Let’s go Damon, let’s get the run back.
Kepner’s article is good but I disagree with some of it. Pitches like Lincecum and as he mentioned Bret Saberhagen are not considered the norm. Then Kepner cites Maddux’s slow beginning as well as Santana’s which I believe to be more normal for a struggling pitcher. Also the notion that Joba would turn down endorsement deals seems kind of ridiculous. Has any athlete ever turned down a way to make more money?? I know it brings him up for more scrutiny but it isn’t his fault he broke out in 2007 as a great reliever which led to the fan base taking an immediate likening to him and thus bringing endorsement deals. I do agree with him that the Yankees probably didn’t expect Joba to struggle as much and they hope he can produce more 6 inning quality starts after the all star break.
“Weaver is having a nice career but there’s no way I’d want him rather than Hughes.”
The only Weaver that excelled was Earl Weaver!!!!!!!
Weaver is at 90 pitches. If they do a good job the 6th should be his last inning.
CB,
that’s because Arte Moreno wanted Jared Weaver because he and Scott Boras are buddies.
That was an owners pick all the way.
Teixeira’s big weakness is the low changeup.
“The only Weaver that excelled was Earl Weaver!!!!!!!”
Don’t forget Charlie Weaver. He excelled as the secret square.
Another K looking with RISP for Tex. A recurring theme lately.
He’s guessing too much. Just see it and put a swing on it. That’s what he was doing in May.
SJ,
Never heard about the Moreno angle on the angels taking Weaver. Doesn’t surprise me. I remember hearing that the Angels scouting guys loved hughes when he was in high school and I’d guess no one else – not even the yankees – saw him play more.
Good example of the kind of value Boras provides to his clients.
Weaver was terrific in college that year. But he just doesn’t have that great an arm.
Arte should have stayed out of that one.
That pick was also tough for the angels as it was they started giving up first round picks often in the years after as they started signing a lot of free agents.
Interesting Tex hits Edwar’s change up last yr can’t touch a poorer change up in Weaver’s. He so needs a break.
How about Buck Weaver?
He’s one of the 8 guys tossed in the Black Sox scandal. John Cusack played him in Eight Men Out.
lead. off. hitter.
SJ44
July 11th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
It’s a very bad sun field. One of the toughest in the league.
No Abreu wouldn’t have looked good in RF because he’s a bad OF and it would have cost the Yankees 16 million to keep him because he would have had to have been offered arbitration.
————————————————————
That’s explain’s Nolan Ryan’s success at those 4:00-5:00 PM starts. Well, that and he was really good.
Nobody on the Yankees can get Howie Kendrick out.
This ump has a tiny strike zone.
Andy did such a good job pitching Kendrick his 1st time up. You have to pitch him in on the hands like how people pitch Jeter. I don’t know why they went away from that in this at bat. Another pitch right over the plate.
***RS July 11th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Teixeira’s big weakness is the low changeup.***
Obviously as he loves to pull everything.
The shift, incidentally, is a contradicting set-up for throwing changeups to Texeira one would think except that the Angels are so certain that Tex will refuse to go the other way.
It might not be something Tex can change during the season, or even next Spring training unless he feels some drastic and prolonged pain in his numbers.
give it back.
RS,
The word “teacup” comes to mind. And I’m not talking Paris Hilton’s chihuahua either.
Didn’t Brandon Wood hit a homerun off the Yankees last year?
And as soon as I write that, he hits one today.
Gah. Let’s go Andy.
Oh Andy.
How many players his their first HR against us??
Interesting. I’m listening to John and Suzyn instead of the FOX, and Mark Feinsand is their guest. He’s saying what he wrote in the link in Pete’s update.
Sounds like a lot of Joba’s problem is between his ears, in terms of pitch selection and such. If so, then it’s fixable. That’s how I look at it.
1 run game. Need more runs.
here we go again
coming apart
This just wow…this place just wow
CB, I watched Jared several times during his incredible Senior Year @ Long Beach State, and of course I’ve been watching Hughes since he was 13 in Pony League…There was no doubt that Hughes was the better of the two at that time….Brandon Wood just went yard…..Much like last night’s game…..
couldn’t you just tell that the homerun was going to come? so much for our bullpen getting a rest today.
Hey Andy, that would have been gone in any stadium, no blaming the ballpark today
I can’t wait til Pettitte finally decides to retire! He is just another 5th starter on this team.. Seems like we have 3 of those right now.
Those nasty Angles always wake up in the 5th inning.
Last night Aybar, today Wood.
We’re playing a depleted team here and they’re coming back two days in a row!
Why do I have the sneaking feeling we’re going to have to endure Brett Tomko today?
>UPDATE, 5:28 p.m.: Nice job by Pettitte limiting the damage.
>Take notes, Joba. This is pitching.
>
>4-1 Yankees after four innings.
Too soon.
Come on Andy get out of the inning.
Ofcourse yet another pitch over the plate. Andy’s stuff is not good enough any more to keep falling behind batters and then having to throw a pitch over the plate. He falls behind and misses his location too much for that. Andy is a left handed older Joba. Misses location, too many pitches, too many walks and big innings.
Srsly they suck when play in Anaheim, it’s like the Mets in Atlanta.
This ump is annoying.
hate the angels so much, why does this always happen
UPDATE, 5:03 p.m.: Andrew Eugene dealing. Yankees lead 3-0. Meanwhile there are literally at least two hot babes in every row of the stands behind home plate here. I don’t know how people watch the game game here.
———-
Looks like Pete can’t concentrate concentrate either.
It seems like we give up so many multi-run HRs to the Angels.
Thankfully the break is coming up. Pen is getting a lot of work.
SAFE?!!?!?
#8 hitter beats Andy again followed by the #9 hitter with a hit. A recurring theme all year with Andy. Happening all year.
Another Yankee starter who can’t hold a big lead.
Get him out and go to the pen again.
They now need 3 starting pitchers and counting after the break.
Seriously home many times is Andy going to miss right over the plate. Anyone hits those pitches. It is really hard watching Joba and Andy back to back in the rotation. It is the same crap with both of them.
I predict Erick Aybar will jack one soon.
“I watched Jared several times during his incredible Senior Year @ Long Beach State, and of course I’ve been watching Hughes since he was 13 in Pony League…There was no doubt that Hughes was the better of the two at that time….”
His numbers that last year in college were fantastic. Really great.
But as you said – he’s just not that talented. Doesn’t have the arm. Good pitcher. But not going to be special – or never had a good probability of being special.
Angels haven’t been real kind to the yankees. Them picking Weaver instead of hughes was one of them.
I do not know what it is about this baseball team that the Yankees haven’t been able to figure out for close to 10 years now, but they have no clue on how to beat them.
I hate to say it, but they own the Yankees. Even if the Yankees hold on to win the game, they simply cannot keep this team from coming back time after time. It is uncanny.
Was he safe? I need to see that again. Looked out.
The hell Figgins looked out.
Is Figgins just always safe no matter what? I guess that’s a new rule in baseball?
Pel,
Fox is not showing the replay. Did you see Jeter’s face?
Not to be too greedy, but Jeter lays back too often on double play balls.
It’s not that those are certain DPs but they are POTENTIAL DPs that don’t get converted.
Hey Pel…
Who is your team?
Pettitte and Joba, like the gifts that keep on giving.
It’s an obviously close play; a good team on the ball would show the replay about…now……now….now?
Pat M, were you wearing a light blue/green collared shirt and Yankee cap last night???
Hello Fox how about a replay on the DP.
Andy actually lulls me to sleep when he pitches. It seems like he throws 150 pitches per outing. He is just annoying and not the money pitcher he used to be. He rarely pitches into the 7th and gives up a ton of hits. Oh how I miss Mussina!
It really is amazing that the Yanks are 16 over .500 with only two good starters.
I would like a replay on that DP but Fox is too busy talking about the all star game.
too many balls for andy.
Andy Chamberlain or Joba Pettitte
Staying too long with Pettitte. Strike throwing is done for the game.
They are going to have to go to 13 pitchers after the break.
Too many useless arms in this rotation.
Too bad they don’t have any other options. Asking Andy to give them 5-6 good innings with the very poor stuff that he has these days is obviously too much for him. His stuff is just not good enough to get it done. It is very obvious. Good thing he will be gone after this season.
this is Joba pt.2 here.. Falling apart at he seams for Andy.
Terry from NH
July 11th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Andy actually lulls me to sleep when he pitches. It seems like he throws 150 pitches per outing. He is just annoying and not the money pitcher he used to be. He rarely pitches into the 7th and gives up a ton of hits. Oh how I miss Mussina!
—-
You my friend are an idiot. No one is asking Andy to be the pitcher he was in the late 90’s.
yanks score 2 in the 6th
does anybody get killed from 1st to 3rd more than the Yankees ?
It just doesn’t matter what the lead is, the Angels will figure out the Yankee pitcher sooner or later.
I hate the Angels so much. They get so many cheap hits, it makes you feel like they’re stealing runs rather than earning them.
Leaving Pettitte in so Abreu can knock in the tying run, then take him out!!
Then there is Dennis Weaver, Marshall Dillon’s gimpy sidekick in Gunsmoke.
***Neil July 11th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Andy Chamberlain or Joba Pettitte***
In all fairness, Pettite is no Joba.
For a #5 starter, the Yankees couldn’t hope for more.
I mind as well watch yesterdays game. You know Abreu is either going to get a hit or walk.
To be fair to Andy, he has struggled for the Yankees and Weaver has been one of the Angel’s best pitchers this year so the match up wasn’t exactly in his favor. He should be able to hold a 4-0 lead though.
he’s going to load the bases or Bobby is gonna drive one in.
Mr. Cliffy… I didn’t ask him to be that pitcher. He doesn’t even resemeble a 5th starter right now.. A 5th start eats up innings with 4.00+ ERA.. Andy can’t even get out of the 5th inning repeatedly..
pettite sucks.
that “DP” wasnt even close. he was out, and we just blew the lead again. how is this possible?!?
Chalk up another blown lead on our way to another loss. Give ‘em a lead, they’ll give it right back.
So once again Figgins who was out comes back and scores.
It’s just batting practice now for the Angels.
a good performance becomes a horrible performance.
back-to-back
I’ve heard that if the Yanks lose this game Alex is going to ‘tip his hat’ to the Angels, but only 15%.
oh good. robertson in a tight situation. is AJ available in the pen?
Am I watching yesterday’s game again?
Serenity now
there goes the lead.
Groundhog Day all over again.
Another starter can’t get out of the 5th.
In comes Robertson with guys on base in a tie game…. great time to bring in a guy who can’t throw strikes.
And to think I used to like Bob-ay.
I am so sick of Andy and Joba it is the same crap every time they take the mound!!!!!!!! They are really forcing Cash t have to go out and get another starter.
I’d mention Sigourney Weaver too- watching the Angels is giving me Alien flashbacks.
And to think it only took five hits and three runs for Girardi to realize Pettitte was going to get out of the inning.
I didn’t think Pettitte was going to get Abreu out and he didn’t.
His start was EXACTLY like Joba’s. Great for the first 2-3 innings, then can’t hold a 4-run lead.
This offense must feel snake bitten because whatever they do against these good Angels starters is just not good enough.
Here we go again. Girardi waits till the game is tied then pulls out Andy who just didn’t have a thing this inning. Brilliant managing there, Moron Joe.
Who is this guy talking? He’s butchered Abreu’s name about 50 different ways.
I don’t really care, but is it too hard to learn how to say the players names correctly?
The ball beat Aybar….but dribbled out…
How about Alby for the double play? What? He’s not here?
Okay, maybe we can escape the inning tied.
Prediction:
Robertson comes in, Abreu steals second, single plates two, both charged to Pettitte, and Robertson gets out of inning with no runs charged to him, keeping his ERA low!!
I wonder if seeing Andy meltdown makes Joba feel that it takes some of the pressure off him, like, he’s not the only one……?
Why isn’t aj in there
Ofcourse another pitch right over the plate to a lefty. Andy it is simple either learn how to pitch inside or retire. Thanks for what you have done but he is FINISHED!! The runner should of been out at 3rd. You need to play better defense than that. The throw was there but Alex didn’t come up with you. You can’t allow 1st to 3rd on a single twice in 1 inning.
Abreu always gets the run in on 3rd with less than 2 outs.
Always.
He did it for us for 2 1/2 years.
And nobody wants Roy Halladay now? It’s games like this that tell me the Yankees have only 2 reliable starters right now.
Wow. Check out PeteAbe’s updates.
He literally had 8 updates last night talking about how Joba was t3h suckitude.
Andy? Nothing.
The Angles don’t even have their 3,4 and 5 hitters in this game and Andy and Joba cant hold 4 run leads.
Cliff, welecome to Southern California…..Nick in SF, no I wasn’t….I remember this Angel come-back crap in the 2002 playoffs…..Yanks were winning in every game, only to have the Angels come back and win…..Figgins on the bases is a choas in the making……As for Weaver, as I stated in the 1st inning, he gets tougher as the game progresses…..For a guy with marignal stuff, he’s smart and sets hitters up well on the 2nd / 3rd spin thru the lineup
that worked out well.
Pete, please post Andy’s post-game reaction.
I can guarantee you he’s not going to sound anything like Joba.
Andy after the game: “I thought I had good stuff”
Please just retire.
I cant watch anymore this is just a joke!!!!!!!!!!
the positive in all of this – the Yanks and their bullpen will have 5 days to forget about Anaheim.
Sorry but robertson should have been sent down, everyone saw this was going to end bad, yet joe keeps putting him into these situations.
When will Pete stop jinxing the Yankees??
- Take notes Joba, this is pitching… And what happens??
- A month ago or so… It is fair to say the best team in the AL once again is from NY… Then NYY lost like 10 of the next 15
There is a little ironi to it, but in ancient Greece they would agree
LOLLLLL This is unreal. Dave Robertson another AAAA player
wow, this is incredible. two days in a row.
That didn’t take long.
Coming into this season I was thinking Phil Hughes could very well play an key role on the team by replacing Pettite the second half of the season due to injury or ineffectiveness.
You can never have enough pitching.
What’s concerning about games like today was how the angels hit the ball harder against Andy the second time through the order. And now the 3rd time through they just mauled him.
He doesn’t’ have the stuff to show hitters multiple looks.
It’s gets ugly quick out there.
Is this a replay of yesterday?
Napoli LOVES high fastballs. So ofcourse lets throw him a high fastball. Just unreal…
What a way to go into the ASB! Two horrible pitching performances and lost momentum.
Why do we even bother playing the Angels in CA? We should just mark the games down as losses and save the jet fuel.
as much as i was rooting for andy because he’s a home grown yankee, i really think it’s time he retired.
Our pitching staff is in shambles right now. We need AT LEAST one more starter, but we also NEED Aceves in the bullpen.
6-4 now, still with only 1 out.
Cough it up, Yanks.
You’ve earned it.
andy and roberston shouldn’t be on this team.
this is why the Yankees aren’t going anywhere this season. 3/5 of the rotation is a liability.
Dave R is a bum……plain and simple……..Andy disappoints once again.
Phil Franchise needs to be in the rotation! thx
This team has AJ and CC every one else just sucks as a starter.
Sigourney Weaver!
I’m thinking tomorrow, they should let the Angels score first.
Abreu is having his revenge against all of you who didn’t want him back.
So another blown call by the ump opens a inning.
Fox is so clever, panning to Torii Hunter.
how do you pitch three no hit innings and before the 5th is over give up 6 runs?
perhaps Pete should avoid making predictions about how the Yankees will do on road trips?
Robertson was lights out last year until Girardi left him in to get killed against the Orioles. IDK what’s happened since then.
I knew this was coming it was just which inning would it happen. This is why they definitely need another starter. Wang won’t be back for a long time. Andy is finished and shouldn’t be in the rotation and Joba is lost.
As proven so many times, the Yankees have to be a scoring machine against the Angels. No lead is safe until the last out.
Well, time to take inventory for the second half:
Joba Chamberlain is a one inning starting pitcher.
Andy Pettitte is a three inning starting pitcher.
Neither guy can hold leads or pitch at home.
They have no #5 starter and when they do Wang is a 2 inning starter.
David Robertson continues to show how he doesn’t belong in the majors.
If the offense doesn’t score 10 for starters 3-4-5, they have little chance to win.
Not good. Not good at all.
Not going to be competitive in the second half with 3/5th of the rotation useless and half the bullpen incapable of working in high leverage games.
Too many holes to plug.
Just have to hope the offense gets hot to carry the team again in the second half because the pitching just isn’t there.
damn, i thought he was going to call him safe at 1st too.
This is too bad.. Arod’s hitting the ball now and the pitching has fallen apart which in turn makes the bullpen suspect again.
I know that was a horrible comeback by the Angels but the game isn’t over yet. As much as the fox announcers are talking about the lack of quit in the Angels if I recall the Yankees have not rolled over and died all season after losing a lead either.
Could you picture this team in a playoff series CC, AJ and then a bunch of guys that suck.
Can Burnett pitch today??
can this bum throw strikes?
This is why Joba pitching the way he is hurts.. No one can afford to have a bad day afterwords. This is not excusing Andys poor performance but it just seems to highlight it with a pen of dead arms.
Maria – This game is beyond over. The Angles owe the Yankees plus they are in the pen already.
SJ-
Have to punctuate your last comment with a big “again!”
You can rip Andy and Joba – but there are a ton of Yankee pitchers who have been handed the same fate in Anaheim.
The Angels are a confident team there. Success breeds confidence. It’s been going on for years now.
It’s funny seeing SJ44 whine about posters panicking in game threads, and then post the same exact things, except in many more words.
People, even the 2003 Yankees folded like a tent against the Angels. How does a team go from ‘awesome’ to ‘in big trouble’ in two games? Perspective is a most-needed but sorely lacking trait in most baseball fans. SJ44, who can post rational thoughts while games are not going on, is actually one of the least-perspectived people on this blog.
Robertson is a joke.
Why he was brought into this game I have no idea.
I posted it already.
Tie game. Guys on base.
Why? Why?
where is cash going to find 3 starters and 3 qality relievers?
here is another reason why that Aceves spot start the other day was such a bad idea. Robertson is a joke in big spots. This would have been a perfect time for Aceves.
“If the offense doesn’t score 10 for starters 3-4-5, they have little chance to win.”
Which is why a number of people have argued that Hughes should get stretched out and sent back into the rotation.
If the rotation is going to be this unstable then getting innings from hughes as a starter is more valuable then saving him to pitch the 8th inning.
Robertson definitely gets scared of the strike zone. Nibbling, more nibbling with a decent fastball. He should be in the minors. Alba should of stayed up here he was at least getting people out. But ofcourse we need mop up Tomko.
How is trading Jesus Montero in a package for Roy Halladay not a necessity at this point?
No Joba. No Pettitte. No Wang.
No big deal?
I believe the Angels could send Marvelous Marv Thornberry to the plate and he’d get a base hit right up the middle, then run all the way to third.
The Angels don’t think they can beat the Yankees, they KNOW they can beat the Yankees!
“how do you pitch three no hit innings and before the 5th is over give up 6 runs?”
It’s been a problem forever for the Yankees.
First time around they pitch well vs the Angels and then 2nd time and 3rd time through the Angels adjust quicker. And the problem is they bring it on thierselves walking guys on, getting into hitters counts and plainly not adjusting. It’s almost like the pitching staff gets on thier heels waiting for it to happen.
This isn’t the umpires. Their pitching aside from Hughes, Rivera, CC, AJ, Coke and Aceves is completely unreliable.
Why David Robertson is on this roster is a mystery. He can’t pitch in high leverage situations and failed once again.
If the season is just about “developing the kids”, make an annoucement to that effect and stop saying the mission statement is to win the World Series.
You don’t develop “kids” and try to win the WS. Its one or the other. If its the former, there is no reason to charge the prices they charge for games.
If its the latter, stop with the kids garbage and get some people in here who are functional major league players.
The roster is woefully short of them at this time.
It doesn’t help that he’s getting squeezed like you cannot imagine right now.
Can we get a f-cking call? Just one?
This is why moving Hughes to the bullpen is a terrible idea.
Right now we have half a starter in Aceves, Pettitte and Joba. None of them are reliable at this point. Hughes starting in one of those spots would be very nice right about now.
“Maria – This game is beyond over. The Angles owe the Yankees plus they are in the pen already.”
Then why are you still watching?
Cash should have signed Ted Lilly instead he went and got Igawa.
can posada just run to the mound and kick robertson’s ass in front of everyone?
I’ve been saying for the last 2 months Pettitte looks done. Hasn’t been that great this year or the second half of last year. He is 37. and his pitches are quite hittable.
They needed him back for depth but I wasn’t a big proponent of bringing him back.
good thing they kept robertson over albi
How about Robertson just saves himself the trouble and drills each batter??
8-4! What are the chances the Yanks come back?
Anyone? Anyone?
Disgust. Just disgust
Hahaha.
That slow-mo of Robertson was hilarious.
This is such a joke!
Well said Andrew YF……….Yanks will still prob win today and if thy do not, not a big deal….They will get it back……..
People who panic over 1 game are pretty dumb.
Andy is not finished…..He will be fine and will pitch some big games mid July-Oct…
chill and enjoy the ride…..
Okay Ricciardi, Joba and Ajax for Halladay. We got a deal?
It is amazing how quickly you clowns start to dismiss the Yankees after two lousy games. Andy Pettitte is 8-4. How many of you expected him to have 8 wins going into the break? There are 162 games in a season. Relax, stop being stupid. You all sound like Mets fans.
Wow. I’m speechless. Actually, I’ve got lots to say, but I will refrain from saying them.
I thought, Kendrick was invincible when he faces pinstripes, Eric??
Thank goodness for Kendrick oversliding the bag!
horror show
even worse, the Red Sox don’t go back to the west coast again this year.
oh, Andy….you stink.
WE NEED DOC HALLADAY
REPEAT
WE NEED DOC HALLADAY
Has anyone started the official “Fire Joe Girardi” website yet?
I think the Yankees will win this game
why did they choose robertson over albie?
and does anyone still think melancon will replace rivera?
so this isn’t good
Well, down by 4 and the battle of the bullpens.
Honestly this season is over. You cant win with just 2 starters.
I am sitting here in Angel Stadium and I am sickened for the second day in a row. Girardi must go! He leaves these guys in even though they have absolutely NOTHING. Dave Robertson is not ready.
I get to come back tomorrow for more? CC please save me!
Hughes had 3 good starts, the rest were very similar to Joba. 5 innings and keeping the team in the game.
If you take hughes out of the rotation to stretch him out, it might take a month. For that month you lose out your late bullpen guy and you still don’t have a starter. That ship has sailed IMO.
No comeback today because the pen will continue to give up runs today.. Robertson is sooooooo over-rated it’s not funny! A 7-run inning is inexcusable and they look like a joke on national tv once again.
“Cash should have signed Ted Lilly instead he went and got Igawa.”
Lilly would have gotten smoked in the AL. He’s only doing well because he’s in the inferior NL. The Cubs can have him.
be honest, LAA is yankee’s daddy.
“Andy Pettitte is 8-4.”
are you even watching these games? win/loss record is about the last stat you point to when examining how a pitcher is performing.
The 5th inning blues
Yankees have got it in spades
Can CC play harp?
Obviously the Yanks never learn that you need to pitch Kendrick inside. Every other team in baseball does it except the Yanks. More great scouting. Robertson is total garbage. This is EXACTLY why I didn’t want Aceves to make that spot start. He is 1 million times more valuable in the bullpen. He would of been perfect in this game. Robertson can’t be brought in with guys on base because all he does is allow 3-4 more runs to score.
I thought we were supposed to have one of the best rotations in the league coming into the year? Two consecutive disgusting performances. 4 run leads should not be pissed away in the middle innings.
“WE NEED DOC HALLADAY
REPEAT
WE NEED DOC HALLADAY”
He’d probably get whipped by the Angels too.
It’s a mental thing w/ this team.
are Tomko and Robertson the same person?
Let’s go Yankees!
The Curious Case of Joba Chamberlain (The sun will come up tomorrow) you are a moron. Wang will be back after the break, Joba will turn his mess around and Pettitte will win 15.
“Has anyone started the official “Fire Joe Girardi” website yet?”
The yankees have the third best record in all of baseball.
“WE NEED DOC HALLADAY”
Not if it costs Montero or Jackson.
Okay Ricciardi, Joba and Ajax for Halladay. We got a deal?
___
i love you people!
You think that gets halladay? the jays dont even need another outfielder. that trade wouldnt even get a deal done in MLB2009.
Sorry the Angels excuse doesn’t count this year. We already swept them earlier this year.. They’re missing 2 of their biggest offensive stars, their pitching is so-so.
I can’t believe we just gave up 7 runs to this slappy team.
only brian cashman could spend $200 million and still be unable to field a complete major league team. this charade has been going on for years. The rotation has been a joke since 2003 and they’ve carried at least 2 players who should be fulltime DHs but play the field out of necessity since 2003. They’ve managed to luck out with guys like Small, Chacon, etc.
Pat M: too bad, I thought I’d spotted you in the stands last night. Section 120, very nice. Can you get those same seats for the Monday game??? If so, count me in.
Meanwhile, is this a mid-July Yankee game or Apocolypse Now????
Laura – are you joking look up Lilly’s numbers his last season in the AL. He owed the Boston Redsox dont give me that NL crap.
oh and let’s not forget how much of a joke the middle relief has been (Kyle Farnsworth?!) the last few years.
The panic over Andy is pretty funny……….Everyone was ok when he pitched a very nice game against Seattle!!! 2 bad starts and he is done??? Typical (non-intelligent, idiot Yankee fans) You make everyone feel so much better. Thanks for being stupid, trigger happy, etc!!!
get halladay. Throw in Joba.
“Honestly this season is over. You cant win with just 2 starters.”
The yankees have the third best record in baseball.
Arod allows the big inning to affect his at bat. Swings at 3 horrible pitches…
now they are swinging at everything thrown
IrishCarBomb
July 11th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Hughes had 3 good starts, the rest were very similar to Joba. 5 innings and keeping the team in the game.
If you take hughes out of the rotation to stretch him out, it might take a month. For that month you lose out your late bullpen guy and you still don’t have a starter. That ship has sailed IMO.
———————————-
I agree Hughes starting wasn’t anything better than what Joba is giving you. The yanks do need a number 3 starter to replace Wang than you would have Pettitte as the number 4 and Chamberlain as your 5.
The Angels are a depleted team. The Yankees have had 2 4 run leads and can’t hold them against a depleted team.
They have no #3-4-5 starters at the moment who are functional ML pitchers.
They aren’t beating the Red Sox or Rays with what they are putting out there in the back end of the rotation and through most of the bullpen.
You know CB, I’m coming around to your thinking.
They might as well stretch out Hughes because there are too many holes to fill via the trade market.
Stretch him out and the new GM and manager next year can figure out what to do with him.
I don’t understand how the Yankees are 1 game back from 1st and with the 3rd record in mlb when we allegedly have all of these issues. Did they all develop over night after we lost to the Angels?
Enjoy the game. Trolls and whiners make these blog comments over the top. Adios regulars.
They’re going to fold up like a cheap tent for the rest of this game.
I’ve never done or said this and I’m been on the blog for over 2 years, but this game is over.
I hate to be one of those guys but its true. Its over.
ouch
oh cool, the offense is going to go to sleep now too. in the same bed as our pitching.
CB – This team has 2 major league starters on its roster so what if they have the 3rd best record. They have a 200 million payroll you would hope they are in the top 3 record wise.
did someone just actually post “the season is over’????
If that’s so…we’re in the wild card.
Yanks win 13 of 15…
then lose one and trail in one…
and some losers are bailing?????
“only brian cashman could spend $200 million and still be unable to field a complete major league team. this charade has been going on for years. The rotation has been a joke since 2003 and they’ve carried at least 2 players who should be fulltime DHs but play the field out of necessity since 2003. They’ve managed to luck out with guys like Small, Chacon, etc.”
Only Brian Cashman can spend $200 million and have the 3rd best team in baseball.
I guess we should kick Andy out of the rotation, too. So, let’s see, plug in Mitre for Joba and Igawa for Andy. Sweet.
-Brian in San Francisco
they rolled over, I’m done for today. Later guys.
Nud you are finally a voice of reason. We are Yankee fans, not Phillies fans or Mets fans. We have won 26 world series. Eventually, we will win another and you can rest assured that it will be within the next 3 years. Imagine being a Pirates fan or a Nationals fan. Be grateful for what we have.
1-2-3
bleah
So I guess the Fox saturday game curse is back on
take solace in this: in a 162-game season one game constitutes 0.67% of the season.
That’s significantly less than 1%.
The players know this, that’s why you never see them get too bent-out-of-shape. It’s us, the fans, that take each of these games a little too seriously.
0.67%.
Hell, even if they lose all 3 games in Anaheim, that represents less than 2% of the season. Damn near meaningless, really.
Now back to your regularly scheduled meltdown.
This team now NEEDS a starter. Andy is hot and cold, Joba is horrible as a starter and I’m growing tired of waiting for his velocity and command to show up, Wang is done this team basically has 2 starters. BIG MOVES need to happen at the deadline, a big starter and a big reliever. If it takes Ajax and Joba, then that’s what it takes. This team can win a title this year, I’m tired of waiting!
At least this series will make Cashman realize that we need to get another starting pitcher.
Andy is the least of our problems…
yankees are fine, but robertson has to go.
andy has good days, joba will have good days, robertson has NOT HAD GOOD DAYS. same story every time he comes out.
SJ you have serious bi-polar. A 2 game mess and you freak out. Get some meds old man. You’re much better at posting when you are calm and rational and intelligent, this other side of you doesn’t work.
dear andy and joba,
did you just see jered weaver’s 6th inning? well thats how you pitch with a 4 run lead.
Joba and Pettitte are pathetic excuses for a starting pitcher
I guess those 51 wins were a fluke.
Oh, Ricciardi is rubbing his hands together in delight…
When will a Yankee pitcher finally stick one in Kendrick’s ear?
Why is everyone killing the pen?? The starters are the reason the pen looks bad. I mean Joba and Andy go 3 innings and then the yanks bring in the minor’s. Its not like Coke, Hughes and Mo are blowing games.
Hey hardwired, did you know that the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs can be as little as 0.67%????
Hughes and Aceves will be in the rotation within a month. It will be CC, AJ, Pettitte, Hughes and Aceves.
Wang returning would give them good problems.
How long until TB is up by 4 runs at home vs. Oakland?
I’ll say 3rd inning.
Right now Pettitte and Joba shouldn’t be in the rotation. They got 2 starters in the pen. Aceves and Hughes was suppose to be the 6h and 7th starter coming into the season.
But because they decided to put those guys in the pen they have no one else to go to. Sorry Mitre isn’t a good option. They had bad luck with Kennedy getting hurt but again 2 starters are in the pen…
They should pitch Andy and Joba on the same day. They both give you 4 innings each and then you move on. Both of them are pathetic.
Ari
Dont try to reason. They are spoiled. They probaably haven’t experienced a losing season. So any loss is like armageddon. They want robots who are infallible.
NOW he throws strikes????????
HA, now he strikes someone out.
“Oh, Ricciardi is rubbing his hands together in delight…”
I don’t think he is.
The yankees are going to make a rash, short sighted trade.
Those days are over.
Ricciardi doesn’t have nearly as much leverage as he normally would do to Halladay’s no trade clause and the Blue Jays horrible economic condition.
Some of the older Yankee fans might remember this….30 Years ago this weekend the Big Bad NY Yankees came to Anahiem for the final series befor ethe break….Angels came back in all three games and swept the Bombers…..Don Baylor said in sweeping the Bombers, the Angels believed they could win the West ( which they did ) ….Yanks went into a tailspin after that series, Cliff Johnson dislocated a finger on Goose’s pitching hand, Catfish couldn’t raise his arm and the Yanks were done…….I was at all three games, little did I know that it would be the last time I’d ever see Thurman Munson play ball……
Had to walk away from TV. My blood pressure is rocketing. These two pitchers, Joba and Petite cannot hold a lead. The Yanks up 4-0 and I told myself this game will be close by 5th inning. Never thought they would be behind by 4. Ridiculous. Pettite at best is a number 5 for a good team and Joba needs to be sent down to find his fastball. I haven’t seen him strike a guy out with a fastball in last five starts.
162-86= 76 games left.. this is not the beginning of the season anymore.. This may be the ASB, but the season is over the halfway mark. Going into this break, the rotation isn’t looking that mighty anymore.. Who cares what the team has done lately. i’m looking into the near future and I see a team that has some serious question marks in the rotation.
“Hughes and Aceves will be in the rotation within a month. It will be CC, AJ, Pettitte, Hughes and Aceves. ”
If it’s that.. we can forget the post season. Why not just leave Joba in the rotation?
They have to get someone else that can go past 6 every now and then.
Peter i cant believe you said he was dealing??!?! Havnt u watched baseball before, he was missing his spots, and walking people left and right! The only reason why he was getting people out is because of DUMB LUCK…which is how all of his starts this year have gone…
SOO!!!!
2ND straight game that PROVES that we need Halladay, i wonder how many games cash is gonna go without doing his job?
Put JOBA in the pen, where he’s not scared to throw to people and put pettite on the 60 day DL for some bullcrap injury.
This is EMBARASSING …. two 4 run leads we have blown
so basically we have CC and AJ as our good starters…. and that’s it…. well that’s about three short…. what a joke these last couple of games have been… blowing two 4-1 leads in two straight games??? That is disgusting and totally unacceptable… This Angels team is a bunch of scrubs… To lose this way to them w/o their, talent wise, two best hitters in the lineup… Ouch. Pretty brutal. The Yankees need to realize the Angels are just another team that is worse than them, to boot. Just because they’ve had the Yankees number in the past doesn’t mean it should continue. The Angels this year are not the dominant team they have been in the past. Their pitching is worse, their hitting is worse, everything is just not as good. The Yanks should beat this team, easily. Terrible effort by our pitching staff the last couple of days. Joba and Andy, I have no confidence when they take the mound.
Robertson should only be used to begin innings. I’ve never seen him come into a game with runners on, and him not allowing them to score.
can’t do anything but laugh at this point.
No fellow Yankee fans, the season is not over! I said a couple of weeks ago, don’t get too up over wins, and don’t get too low over losses. There is a long way to go.
I know what SJ is saying, and he’s right. The Yankees need to make a decision to either go for it all this year, and give up much of their good young talent for a Roy Halladay, or stick with what they have and see what happens. Either way, nothing is guaranteed. I thought that 04 squad was a sure thing, boy, was I ever wrong.
I say stay the course, see what happens in the second half, then decide after the season’s over what direction to take. Andy will be gone (I will miss him, love the guy), Joba and Phil will be better (everyone knows that), and we will have CC and AJ back. A few little tweaks here and there, and we’re looking good.
Be that as it may, we can win the WS with what we have, we have a long way to go.
The Angels are in their head now, and I don’t know what can be done to get them out!
Poor job blocking the plate on that pitch by Posada.
Actually I just want a manager who knows how to manage and can make the tough decision when it needs to be made. He’s too worried about hurting someones feelings. Toughen up Joe!! It’s about winning a championship, not nursing someones ego.
miggs,
Oakland has men on 1st & 3rd.
Okay, it’s obvious now. Robertson can’t come in the middle of an inning. And he must be plenty warmed up.
the cry-babies on this blog always bring a smile to my face…..It sets in what is truly realistic. Yanks will be fine-the game isnt even over yet……Andy was poor today but he will bounce back…..I am more concerned with the whole Hughes situation. I understand keeping him in the pen because he has been terrific, but he was a ready mad starter before the genius Girardi yanked him after an 8 inning gem in Texas…….Phil is the goods, stretch him out and put Joba in the pen and the Yanks will be better off!
One thing that right now Girardi cannot do is bring Robertson in during the middle of an inning. He either walks batters or grooves a pitch. His first full inning is usually better, except for today.
i love you people who think well get halladay just because.
I wish Girardi wouldn’t play by the book so much.
Hughes and Coke are his 8th inning guys. But obviously that 5th inning was a huge game changer and they needed to replace Andy with a reliable reliever.
Hughes and Coke can both go more than an inning, so why not bring one of them in, and hope they can get out of that inning and pitch another scoreless inning or two? Even if the move doesn’t work out, at least you know you went with their best.
But of course, Robertson has to be used in the middle innings, and Hughes and Coke must be saved for 8th inning leads that don’t exist.
Robertson looks like he some trouble throwing strikes from the stretch.
Nud, stop crying about Hughes.
aybar= Babe Ruth
Good night, folks.
No, Andy is a BIG problem.
They can take Chamberlain out of the rotation tomorrow if they want.
With Andy, he has no place to go and as a veteran pitcher, he needs to be better than this.
Unfortunately, he can’t pitch at home, can’t go deep into games anymore, and hasn’t been good for a caldendar year now.
3 starters and 2-3 bullpen arms needed before Friday night, just to keep pace with Boston and Tampa.
Good luck finding that.
I have come around to CB and Patrick’s thinking.
Stretch out Hughes and put him in the rotation.
If we are going to “play the kids”, play all of them where they belong and let’s find out if they are good or just hyped.
Might as well as well do it now because nobody has enough prospects to fill this many holes at the deadline.
If this performance doesn’t convince Girardi David Robertson doesn’t belong on this roster, I don’t know what does. Another awful peformance by a guy overmatched at the ML level.
Damn Arturo Gatti found dead in his apt. in Brazil… He was a warrior and just played him on the FNF 09 on the PS3.
Great job Robertson you sorry excuse for a pitcher.. If he’s not optioned down after this game then Girardi has no clue!!!
People are over-reacting a bit, I think. Girardi stuck with Pettitte because of Joba’s lousy performance last night. Hoping Pettitte to get through 5.
The inning should ahve been over!!!!!!!
Man, this is just nuts.
He strikes out 3 and there’s only 2 outs and with a guy on 2nd, Robertson can’t do it.
Man.
That has to be the last time we ever see Mr. Robertson this year.
Just out of curiosity, how much worse does Pettitte have to get before there is any discussion of yanking him from the rotation?
I mean, Whitey Ford was a great Yankee pitcher too, but I don’t want to see him on the mound any more than I want to see the ghost of Andy Pettitte out there.
If we want a pitcher who can’t ever go 5 innings, call up Igawa.
last time we were losing 9-4 to the angels we won 10-9. It can be done. Just saying.
Doesn’t take much for this place to become unreadable.
I always hate the trolls and whiners on the blog, but if you are watching the same games today and yesterday as I am, I don’t care how optimistic you are, can’t be too happy about our pitching staff right now… (except CC AJ Phils and Mo)
definitely need to do something about pitching before 7/31..
“I say stay the course, see what happens in the second half, then decide after the season’s over what direction to take. Andy will be gone (I will miss him, love the guy), Joba and Phil will be better (everyone knows that), and we will have CC and AJ back. A few little tweaks here and there, and we’re looking good.”
Agreed. Two days ago people were ecstatic about the team and how well it was playing.
I guess it’s easy to feel that way after a sweep of the Twins.
This is a good team. They are going to figure things out.
This whole notion that they only have 2 starters is strange.
If these same criteria were used for every team how many teams would have “five” starters?
Would the sox? Brad Penny throws 5 innings a start and has ERA of 4.7.
No way he would count as a “starter” if he were doing that for the yankees.
People are really over reacting to losses against the Red Sox and Angels.
We better win with CC tomorrow, and he better go more than 4 innings.
Aybar is killing the Yanks. Killing them.
Im sure cashman will have one of his moronic quotes in regards to the pitching staff saying something like” we will take care of the pitching from within” or some garbage like that. How are you guys saying petite is going to be fine? So what he has 8 wins he has a 5 ERA. He has 8 wins because of run support. What do you guys think about putting Joba in a package for Halliday?…… The first thing Cashman has to do after this debacle is send this waste Robertson back to the minors.
Terry #1
July 11th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Poor job blocking the plate on that pitch by Posada.
—————————-
Of course Willits will score. Robertson could of been out of the inning Jorge got lazy.
UPDATE, 5:28 p.m.: Nice job by Pettitte limiting the damage. Take notes, Joba. This is pitching.
===========================
I think I said the same thing too earlier today, but I hope Jobber stopped taking notes at some point.
Well, this game sure has gotten a bit out of control
the team without their two best hitters is having batting practice with us. 3rd best record and all, how can this particular weekend not be a bit embarrassing to them?
What do you guys all say to everyone chipping in on a Bus Pass to send Robertson back to Scranton?
Ummmm Girardi, Robertson is a AAA pitcher can you please take him out of there before he gives up 5 more runs. Girardi is really clueless. He allows the kid to continue to give up runs. Isn’t it Tomko time yet???!!
I hope Mr. Selig lets the Yankees try again tomorrow as scheduled.
Andy is our 5th starter, an innings eater. Prop up the other two “holes” in the rotation and then we can worry about Andy.
I really don’t get why everyone is saying the Yankees have two options–to give up on their young talent and go for a world series or let players develop and give in to lower expectations.
To me that is ridiculous. What good teams do is develop their young players while playing at a high enough level of baseball to compete for the world series (which, by the way, the Yankees are doing considering we have the 3rd best record in baseball).
Boston has done exactly that over the last few years. They developed Lester, Pedroia, Papelbon, Ellsbury, etc while winning two world series in 4 years.
I think everyone needs to relax a little bit and realize we will go into the all star break with the 2nd best record in baseball either 1, 2, or 3 games behind Boston. This isn’t the end of the season. We can still give our young players (Joba, Hughes, Melky, Gardner) time to develop while playing some of the best baseball in the league.
“i love you people who think well get halladay just because.”
Why not? Include Joba in a deal with Ajax and a few other pieces and its a very fair trade we are certainly capable of.
I have tickets for tomorrow’s game. Is it too late to get a refund?
Is that the real SJ, or the impersonator making him look bipolar?
This game is an absolute disgrace.
tomko… guess girardi wants this game over too.
Can Codey Ransom pitch??
Tampa is throwing out Shields-Kazmir-Garza-Price-Niemenn. They have the 3rd best bullpen ERA in baseball and the best offense in baseball.
You think we’re beating them out for the wild card with this rotation? Not a chance.
lol. We can all have a big laugh when Tomko is the winner on record today.
Punt this game. Let CC deliver tomorrow, ya know prove he’s the ace and head into the ASG, Aceves needs to be back in that pen!
Pettitte and Joba are the next contestants on the new ABC show “ARE YOU BETTER THAN A 5TH INNING PITCHER?”
I wonder what package Toronto would take for Halladay. Hughes or Joba, Jackson, McAllister and another pitcher? Montero is the only untouchable.. I am not saying I would make the deal I am just curious what they are looking for and would seriously say yes to.
Wow, rough day today huh folks?
Everyone needs to step back, relax, and look at the big picture. Still leading the WC, still neck and neck with Boston in the East.
Let today’s game play out, and CC will get a game back for us tomorrow.
I think 90% of the people on this blog need to get completely away from baseball next week, including myself.
This is terrible… I was looking forward to going into the break tied for first, or in first.. Now it can get to 3 games if we lose tomorrow. Maybe the ROyals can help us out… Geez, Joba and now Pettite.. ROy? I want you in pinstripes!
Our coaching staff’s comments about Joba are a freakin disgrace… I mean no wonder the guy does nothing but make excuses when that’s all his coaches do for him… “oh he’s only 23… look at Greg Maddux’s (????) first season… blah blah blah”… Don’t these morons realize it’s not all about the numbers… it’s about the fact he’s making the same mistakes over and over again, walking hitters, not throwing strikes, blowing leads and not picking up his teammates… But nah, he’s just a rookie and he’s 23 so let’s have him screw up our season every time he starts while he tries to “figure it out”… What is there to figure out???? Throw strikes, be aggressive with your fastball, and focus and pick up your teammates when you make a mistake. Easy. Someone needs to tell Joba to watch CC pitch and take notes, because I think he’s modeling his game after Pettite’s. Bad command, walking a million guys, constantly getting behind, blowing leads, etc etc…… so gross
are these yanks beating good teams? What’s their record against teams with winning records?
Angel (OPPC) – A tale told by idiots – full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
July 11th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Doesn’t take much for this place to become unreadable.
—————
Your arrival?
Andy is not an innings eater anymore. He is a bullpen killer!
Laura
Lilly is a better pitcher than Igawa. In fact, you are probably better than Igawa.
————————————————————–
Reliable bullpen arms are Coke, Hughes, Aceves and Mo.
Robertson, Melancon, Bruney and Joba need to be on the Scranton shuttle if there are any other arms to bring up.
Angel,
LOL. You must be new. That is the real SJ. He’s…passionate about the Yankees.
He reserves the right to change his opinion, and when he does it’s a fun read.
He brings a lot to the table, though.
Whatever the Yankees do, they should maximize the talent on the current roster before they approach the trade market. I don’t think they’re even doing that right now. Hughes needs to be a starter. Joba needs to be a reliever. Aceves needs to be given a fair chance to hone his trade as a starter.
The big question mark is Chin Ming Wang.
If they feel his injury is more serious than they’re letting on than they must make a strong push for Halladay. If Wang is gonna miss more than 1 month, Halladay is a necessity.
AL from BK,
Aceves is headed back to the pen. Mitre is coming into the rotation after the break.
That being the case, I take it as a good sign that Wang won’t be out long. Hopefully early August.
Yippee!! Tomko is going to pitch!!
Robertson doesn’t seem like the type of pitcher who should come in with men on bases. I don’t have the #’s in front of me, but has he always let inherited numbers score?
Are the Yanks gonna gives us at least one good tease today?
Hughes being the pen is a luxury. In terms of you have no where in the rotation to put him because because your starters 1-5 are just too good. But that’s not the case here. Starting pitching is more important then an 8th inning/pen guy.
Yankees lost depth in the rotation when they decided to put him and Aceves in the pen.
If Wang was healthy and either Joba or Pettitte was pitching well I wouldn’t mind Hughes in the pen all year.
Some of the older Yankee fans might remember this….30 Years ago this weekend the Big Bad NY Yankees came to Anahiem for the final series befor ethe break….Angels came back in all three games and swept the Bombers…..Don Baylor said in sweeping the Bombers, the Angels believed they could win the West ( which they did ) ….Yanks went into a tailspin after that series, Cliff Johnson dislocated a finger on Goose’s pitching hand, Catfish couldn’t raise his arm and the Yanks were done…….I was at all three games, little did I know that it would be the last time I’d ever see Thurman Munson play ball……
………………………………..
Pat M. – I was at the Baylor home run game, and my uncle, a huge Angel’s fan, started hitting me on the head! I almost punched him. Probably should have
Yeah, I remember the Cliff Johnson wrestling with Goose incident. What was it, a day or two later and Johnson was shipped out? Losing Thurman really, really hurt that year.
We are NOT getting Halladay without offering Jesus Montero as the centerpiece of the deal.
If we want to get serious here, we absolutely must dangle a prospect that no other team can offer them, one they simply cannot refuse.
hey jack the ripper, any chance you like the white stripes? im just asking cause they do a cover of that song jack the ripper.
huh m? New?
Not that I know of. Been posting here longer than a lot of people I think.
Sunny,
Yes, the Yankees have beat winning teams. We took 2/3 from Detroit, handled Texas, have (I believe) a winning record vs. Tampa, and took 2/3 from the Angels in NY a while back.
For whatever reason, playing in Anaheim is a house of horrors for the Yankees.
Hughes belongs in the rotation. Some of us have been saying that all along.
Darren Oliver = Brett Tomko but he’ll probably shut the Yanks down.
Robertson has struggled a little, but he has overall been good in the Yankee bullpen. Jees, talk about impatience. As soon as someone so much as goes into a little slump people want to jump on that person & ship em’ out of town. Relax.
And we are back in it!
Good job Hinske!!
Hinske!
Hinske is our shane spencer all he does is hit gone balls
Hey Hinske, nice job. Too bad robertson sucks.
John Heyman – “if i were the yanks, i’d include joba for halladay, no problem. joba, montero, betances? just throwing it out there”.
where’s all the WHY HINSKE? comments?
Well, that’s a little better.
SJ – would you take a flyer on Pedro?
Hinske worth every penny Cashman got back for him.
Too bad all of those extra runs were given up by the great Robertson. Who needs Swish when we have Hinske.
Thye tease has begun. Could it be more than a tease?
See people….
Never say die!!
Angel,
lol. I know you’ve been here a long time. But seriously, you’ve never noticed SJ’s tendencies?
Way to go Hinske.
Hasn’t he homered in every game he’s started?
Hinske doesn’t want to lose!
Eric Hinske, what a stupid pickup by Cashman!
now this makes me angrier that our pitching was so bad
OK Joe. Hinske has done enough today. Time to pull him and put Ransom in RF.
I’ve been around here all game actually, JohnBlacksox.
No Montero in the Doc deal sorry, take Joba, Hughes, Jackson, Romine, Melancon but no Montero!
CB,
The problem is reliablity. Pettitte and Chamberlain are horrible at home and have been all year. Now, it may just be they are horrible on the road too.
Either way, neither guy is reliable.
There is no #5 starter at this time. Those options aren’t great either.
Bruney and Robertson are incapable of getting ML hitters out right now. Yet, Girardi insists on keeping them both on the roster and using them in high leverage situations. To the team’s detriment.
Lots of holes have sprung, and its pretty tough to fill all of them.
Unless guys who have contributed little or nothing to the cause find it in the second half, competing for a playoff spot will be challenging.
3 starters and 3 bullpen arms are needed. The “kids” are overhyped and overmatched.
That’s why I’ve come around to your thinking re: Hughes.
If David Robertson was a functional ML pitcher, perhaps they still would have had a shot in this one.
At some point, Girardi has to stop using guys who fail in the same situations over and over. A lesson that will help him in this next managerial position if this team misses the playoffs again.
Funny all the people who bashed Cashman for acquiring Hinske for essentially nothing.
Hinske has already made the deal worthwhile.
those runs that Robertson gave up come into play now don’t they?
Uhh.. Gardner…
Roger Maris July 11th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
OK Joe. Hinske has done enough today. Time to pull him and put Ransom in RF.
lol…Joe G wud
The days of slugging our way to a playoff birth are over. Not with Tampa waking up.
Memo to Cashman – Fix the rotation and pen, or it will be another October with no Yankee baseball.
Cashman is the great alchemist. He turned lead into gold with the Swisher + Hinske trades.
They don’t quit
“If we want to get serious here, we absolutely must dangle a prospect that no other team can offer them, one they simply cannot refuse.”
Like the mets did when they got Santana? Carlos Gomez is an unmatchable talent.
If the yankees want halladay they need to offer a better package than the other teams in the market.
That’s it. Nothing more.
None of the teams interested in Halladay have even been mentioned to be giving up a single player as good as Montero, Joba or Hughes. Not even remotely close.
People are overestimating the amount of leverage JP has.
Why is Cabrera in?
It’s the 7th inning with no outs.
Gardner’s OBA is higher than Melky’s and you’re downgrading your defense for 2 innings when you didn’t have to.
Why the hell was Gardner taken out, was he hurt or something
***KO July 11th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Uhh.. Gardner…***
Yeah, that’s a panic move by Girardi.
Without offering Jesus Montero, the Yankees can’t distinguish themselves from other teams making offers. We have to offer a prospect that puts us in a class of our own if we want to win the Halladay sweepstakes.
Why would the Mets want Hinske other than to play first base? He is a good hitter but would be swallowed up in RF. Citi field has a huge outfield. Minaya said he considered Francoeur a better outfielder than Church with a stronger arm. Also there were rumors that Manuel didn’t like Church.
Haha m, sorry my sarcasm meter was down for a second there.
I guess I haven’t. I guess I’ve always assumed it was him being impersonated. I’ve never noticed him being this reactionary.
“We are NOT getting Halladay without offering Jesus Montero as the centerpiece of the deal.”
Then no deal. If I was Cash I would not trade Montero for anyone, the only untouchable no matter what.
If you put Hughes in the rotation, who is your late inning guy? Phil Coke? Bruney?
With what happened last season, with trying to stretch joba from a reliever to the rotation, i doubt they will do it. Joba obviously isn’t the same pitcher since his shoulder injury. With the way they baby these young pitchers I don’t think they will try to stretch a relief pitcher to a starter. But what do I know?
KO,
Because Girardi wanted to get the whole lead back in one inning.
Melky is absolutely brutal against lefties…. Jesus what a boneheaded pinch hit right there…. I mean if Gardner is not injured that is just an awful substitution
“Can Codey (sic) Ransom pitch??”
Probably about as well as he plays third base.
We can still beat the bad teams with 2 starters. We ain’t beating the Angels or Sox though.
I also have to admit getting Hinske was a nice trade. I personally didn’t like the guy, but you can’t argue with getting a proven, winning contributor like that for practically nothing. Good deal by Cash and it’s already paid big dividends.
Good to see some fight in the Yankees.
“I wonder what package Toronto would take for Halladay. Hughes or Joba, Jackson, McAllister and another pitcher? Montero is the only untouchable.. I am not saying I would make the deal I am just curious what they are looking for and would seriously say yes to.”
___________________________________________
I don’t think any trade involving Hallady to the Yankees is going to happen, but they could ask for Cervelli or Pena? Maybe
Always wanted Hughes in the rotation, but I’m a “go with the flow” type, since I don’t make the decisions.
The question is, or one of them, can Hughes pitch into the 6th or 7th innings as a starter? If not, is he an improvement over what they have there now? I guess part of the answer is, if he’s at least protecting leads, they could live with 5 innings, maybe?
This game (and yesterday’s) should prove how important Aceves was to the team.
Yes, Joba and Andy STUNK. But both left with the game tied and the Yankees still having a chance to win. It was the bullpen who put the game out of reach by allowing the Angels to tack on so many runs.
Today, Aceves could have come in and pitched 2+ innings, without allowing the 5 runs that Robertson did. Thus the Yankees could have tied the score by now. He made our middle relief strong, which allowed the offense to come from behind so many times.
If Robertson and Tomko are our relievers whenever we have a deficit, you can say goodbye to all those comeback wins.
Damons a strikeout machine lately
Halladay is no longer a luxury, he is a necessity. Have people seen Tampa’s rotation compared to ours? The records will indicate it pretty soon.
Girardi really needs to stop playing Melky or Gardner for the match up. He needs to play the one who is swinging the bat better. He gets too crazy with the match up. Right now Gardner is swinging better no reason to over manage there. Melky has been horrible except ofcourse some at