Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jul 11, 2009 
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Joba Chamberlain had a rough night as the Yankees fell to the Angels.
Brett Gardner and Melky Cabrera have been a formidable duo in center field.
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This note for you:
Alex Rodriguez is a career .336 hitter in Anaheim (112 of 333). He has a .405 career OBP here and a .702 slugging percentage. He also has hit 33 homers at Angel Stadium, more than any park other than those he has called home.
A-Rod’s homer havens:
Old Yankee Stadium: 124
Rangers Ballpark: 96
Kingdome: 60
Safeco Field: 39
Angel Stadium: 33
SkyDome 31
Camden Yards 23
Metrodome 21
Tropicana Field 19
Fenway Park 19
Back later with the lineups.
“The last two starts is the best my stuff has been all year, that makes it even more frustrating,” Chamberlain said.
Asked to explain, he said: “Better location, in and out. I threw all four pitches for strikes tonight so there’s really…they just hit the mistakes and that’s what they’re supposed to do.”
Question folks: Could Joba be tipping his pitches?
Joba should talk to Aaron Small about what happens when you stop performing at a level that is expected of you. My nephew could pitch better than him and he is a catcher.
Joba should be penalized by the umps for taking too much time.
He slows the tempo of the game down, I think it works in the favor of the batters. Someone needs to put a foot in his rump and fast.
“Question folks: Could Joba be tipping his pitches?”
I mean, he COULD be tipping his pitches, but don’t you think somebody would have figured that out by now? Joba is just someone who lacks the maturity right now to keep his composure when things don’t go his way (whether it be errors or mis-calls by the umpire). Burnett used to be JUST like Joba and it took a lot of maturing for Burnett to not get rattled by such things. It’s a learning process for Joba
“The funny thing is when people mention Joba’s velocity drop to Girardi or Cash they pretend like it didn’t happen and there isn’t a problem”
it’s called re-sale value
Nobody has bought into his overhype more than Joba has. The lack of major league maturity has caught up to Joba and he thinks he’s bulletproof.
He needs a quick reality check or Cashman will get very serious about moving him to Toronto as part of a package for Roy Halladay.
The bold move of sending Boomer Wells to Toronto for Clemens is a reminder of how quick fans can get over a player that thought they had favored status.
Joba Chamberlain will never have the pitching smarts of Roy Halladay.
Aaron was outrighted to triple A COLUMBUS,as I recall.I called him a flash in the pan.He and Giambi were high schoolmates.
Joba and Ian Kennedy need to stop hanging out. Actually, at this point, my statement is very unfair to Kennedy.
With the way Joba is pitching recently, I don’t think Ricciardi would want him as part of a package for Halladay. I think it’s more realistic Joba is going to find himself in the Scranton rotation for a few weeks to get his head cleared and try and find himself, because he’s not himself anymore
“Joba should talk to Aaron Small about what happens when you stop performing at a level that is expected of you”
or Shawn Chacon and countless others.
btw, i still love Chacon. He really saved NYY’s ***
Stake a 5-1 lead in the bottom of the 5th inning and Roy Halladay doesn’t blow it, error or no error.
Alan,
That much is very true…Halladay is a seasoned veteran while Joba is still a young, tempermental guy. I think his problems are as much mental as they are mechanical
Ramey, you’re right. You would think that it would have been spotted by now. But Joba’s really bad games have basically been the last two – so it may have only started recently.
When I was a kid back in the 50′s, I think that it was Whitey Ford that went through an extended period of bad pitching before they found out he was tipping a certain pitch. I believe he would turn his glove a different way before he threw. It can often be something very subtle.
The scouting report must read,he’s hittable after the 3rd.
Strike before Joe is forced to take him out.
Cashman has to be working on this.Joba is too unreliable at present. Even Kei Igawa was banned from the majors for lousy pitching.
Iconclast,
I really think Joba’s main problem is two-fold. On the one hand, he’s young and tempermental, so he lets things really make him lose composure, like an error. (I was at the game last sunday when joba had a complete meltdown after ransom’s error) And I think his ridiculous loss of velocity is the fact he’s at least 20lbs heavier than he was as a rookie, so he’s out of shape. If he has a proper off-season conditioning program and focuses on running and losing some of his extra “girth”, he should have the same marked improvement that Felix Hernandez has seen since he lost his extra weight 2 years ago.
Was speaking with a Cardinal fan that feel Halliday might favor St Louis,because Carpenter and Halliday are really good friends.
I saids the Card ownership,should first resign Pujols,before trying to spend on Halladay.
He’s not tipping his pitches and he’s kidding himself if he believes that’s the “best stuff” he’s had all year.
He’s uncoachable, uncatchable, and unwatchable.
The act has gotten old. The lack of accountability is amazingly bad for a kid who was raised to be better than that.
I don’t want to hear “he’s 23″ either.
This is his third season in the big leagues, counting part of 2007, when he was brought up. He’s a veteran compared to a kid like Cervelli for example who was ALWAYS accountable in his short time here.
His teammates are tired of him and you can tell Girardi is getting close to pulling the plug with him.
Joba has managed to do the one thing you can’t do as a player. Have teammates indifferent about you. Once you get there, its a LONG road back to gaining respect from the guys in the locker room.
He gave away another 4 run lead for the second straight start. Against a depleted lineup no less. He caved, again, just like he did against Toronto.
We’ve run out of excuses. No more catchers, coaches, managers and teammates to blame.
He’s not a starting pitcher. He has neither the consistent stuff, endurance or competitiveness to do it.
“Potential” and “Ceiling”, are scouting buzzwords used to fill notepads and getting everybody excited about prospects. However, baseball is a results oriented business. If you don’t have the results, you don’t keep your job. He doesn’t have the results to continue as a starting pitcher.
I really thought this kid was a starting pitcher. I thought he wanted to be a starting pitcher. However, I was wrong.
Guys who want it, really want it, are coachable, work hard, and work well with their catchers and teammates. He doesn’t do any of that.
Wanna give him one more try against the Tigers, just to be sure? Hey, why not, the Yankees could always use another bullpen busting performance from him after the break.
At some point though, reality has to set in. He needs to go back to the bullpen and they are going to have to find a starting pitcher.
If its not Doc Halladay, then a guy who is better than a 4+ inning, 90 pitch, 4-6 run a game guy. That’s who he is replacing in Joba. Not some “phenom”.
With Bruney completely unreliable at this point, if you are going to only get 4 innings a week from him, it might as well be spread over 4 games than one game.
Especially when Joba isn’t “developing”. He’s just costing you games and blowing out your bullpen. Not desirable when you are trying to make the playoffs.
“Asked to explain, he said: “Better location, in and out. I threw all four pitches for strikes tonight so there’s really…they just hit the mistakes and that’s what they’re supposed to do.” ”
His location was better. 94 pitces, 58 strikes. That’s over 50%, what do we want from the guy? Out of 58 strikes, he only made 9 mistakes. 9 that they hit, anyway. That is only 1 mistake every 6 strikes. We have to remember, they are a good team, expecting something like 7 innings of 3 runs/7 or less hits is a little unrealistic. Holding a 4 run lead against a good team like the Angels just isn’t going to happen. We can only expect that against the bottom teams like Pawtucket and Raleigh-Durham. At least he should find out soon if he can hold leads against those teams.
I’m not sure how much of an issue conditioning is, but he sure is slow and largely ineffective with runners on.
Until the Yankees settle the # 5 starter issue they cannot consider any changes with # 4.
I expected to see Tomko instead of Melancon. Give the kid a chance to get acclimated.
SJ,
Wouldn’t you think the Yankees would be better off sending Joba to Scranton in hopes of somehow getting his problems sorted out, rather than relegating him to the bullpen?
Well, I’m glad I didn’t stay up and didn’t hear or see anything after the 2nd inning. That was enough to give me a hint that this was going to be one of “those” nights again and I wasn’t too surprised to find out this morning that they’d lost.
Staked to a 4-0 lead, the game should have been won.
I never underestimate the Angels, which is why I figure that if they get out of LA with one win it’s a moral victory. Vlad and Torii being out do not necessarily make the series a cakewalk, as evidenced by the Angels’ performance last night. They are a tough team, especially at home.
Maybe the ASB will do Joba some good. Get out of the routine, get some distance. I don’t doubt that he’s trying. But he’s not succeeding and it is clear that he is getting discouraged easily. Which is odd, because earlier in the season, one of the things that you could say was, he may not have been being economical but he was able to limit the damage. Now, he’s not limiting the damage, but adding fuel to the fire. So, he definitely needs a time-out, and hopefully 4 days away from baseball altogether will be helpful to him.
They really can’t send him down – well, of course, they can, but it would be problematic – since they don’t really have a replacement for him, especially given Wang’s woes.
I’m gonna lay off his post-games. There’s enough scrutiny and I’m thinking all that serves no real purpose.
Today’s a new day. Hoping for a good one.
I don’t know what is more insulting:
Joba telling us he has good stuff or the so called “Experts” who for some reason still think he is better off as a starter.
Getting old with the “he’s young” or the “he has potential” crap.
Pete: “According to the Elias Sports Bureau, Joba Chamberlain’s 10 decisions (7-3) through his first 29 career starts are the fewest in Major League history. I’m not sure how to interpret that. But there you go.
As to what counts, Joba has one victory since June 1 and a 5.05 ERA.”
What it means is that Joba is suited to pitch about 30 pitches a game, be dominant, and help the team win games. If you want him to learn to start than at least say he should learn in the minors. Even Pete agreed with that – see his post shortly after midnight….
To the so called experts, Joba, and the stubborn clueless fan base who believe in him as a starter: Stop insulting us!
accurscore.com has the Yankees losing Yesterday’s and today’s game.
There forcasting is usually spot on too.
They also,have the RS winning.So Yankees could be 2 behind today.Man do I wish them wrong.
I don’t see how the Yankees go after Halladay if Joba is this bad. I can’t see the Blue Jays wanting him, and why would the Yankees let Hughes go if Joba is such a question mark? Unless they can construct a package that allows them to keep Hughes, I don’t see that deal happening at all. Unless the Blue Jays make Joba a relief pitcher. But even at that, he’s not going to closer quality this season.
And right now, if they gave up Hughes for Halladay and move Joba to the pen, it still weakens the pen (I don’t see Joba being effective at least not right away) and they still only have 3 solid pitchers, one okay pitcher and one empty spot in the rotation.
And what’s up with Bruney? Still rusty? Is location the last thing to come after a lay-off?
Started posting in the last thread, had to make coffee, deal with the dog and and get the kid out of bed. Didn’t notice we moved on… so please allow me a re-post here.
Regarding Joba, I’m paraphrasing, but Roy Halladay wasn’t built in a day. And it is said often that Roy is “the best pitcher in baseball” right now.
Sandy Koufax didn’t get it right away, neither did Nolan Ryan. I’m not saying Joba will have the career of any of those three pitchers, but it takes time to brew a good pitcher out of a strong arm, a bulldog head and youthful ignorance. Some people are single key types, tell them once and they get it. Other folks need the same message delivered several times and in different ways before they comply. Good teachers don’t have only one way to get through to a kid in the classroom and they certainly don’t give up on a kid, even if the kid fights them, because the teacher knows that the kid needs to break down and learn. Rather than talking about Joba’s makeup (personality), I’m more interested in the makeup of Yankees’ front office. Will they teach this kid using tough love if necessary or give up on him? If they can use him in a trade to get equal or superior talent back, I don’t have a problem. But if they trade him (or kill his development) because they don’t have the organizational skills or patience to teach a stubborn (lost? proud?) young pitcher, that’s different, and not very good news. To me the Joba story is as much about Yankee player development as it is about the player.
SJ44 – that was brilliant. I’ve been saying it since Day 1.
If he’s going to pitch 5 innings a week why not let him spread out 1-2 innings of success at a time.
Not to mention – look at the work load of Hughes and Coke the past few weeks. They are getting used in almost every game and that’s not a good thing. Joba is a reliever and Hughes should have been left in the rotation. Now that that is too late, we need a 4th (and 5th starter).
Murphydog,
I agree with you entirely. People forget that Roy Halladay was sent all the way back to single-A when he was 24 years old because he just plain stunk and they fixed everything about him from his delivery to his arm angle. And he’s had great success the last 8 years because of that.
It certainly couldn’t hurt the Yankees to try and do something similar with Joba. It would seem like a complete waste to just throw him in the bullpen because he isn’t getting major league hitters out in the rotation right now. Kennedy and Hughes couldn’t get anybody out last year, Joba’s having the same type of problems now.
Doreen:
I think Joba is a project. The Jays may be interested in acquiring him because if they developed Roy, they can develop Joba. Roy took more than a bit of work to get where he is.
Actually the Jays may want Joba as a potential closer long term. They’d also want another high end arm and other stuff. Joba, McAllister and Cervelli/Romine might get it done. Is that a price worth paying?
I’m really hesistant to give on McAllister because all reports have him way up there in the “make up” category.
Joba is capable of giving you 3-4innings,he should be maybe he should be in long relief.
Murphydog – If you think the Yanks should be patient with a 5 inning, 4 run pitcher you obviously are less interested in winning a world series this year than most.
Jeter, Posada, and Mariano are getting older and Girardi has 1 year – make playoffs and win or he’s out. The Yankees try to win every year and while player development is important – where is Phil Hughes??? His development is no more or less important than Joba.
You are 100% wrong to compare his career to Koufax or Clemens. If you were right we could compare every single young pitcher to those guys if they have a bad start. Joba is in his 3rd year pitching. He has regressed since opening day. If you have failed to see that than you are not paying attention.
Stop with the Halladay talk. The Jays are not trading him to the Yankees and the Yanks are not trading Joba (whose value is down) or Hughes when they didn’t trade those guys for Santana.
Stop with the nonsense talk already. Halladay is not going to Boston or NY.
Issue of the day is getting all the “chuckle heads” who believe Joba could become an Ace to agree he is better suited as a reliever than our #4 of the future (behind CC, AJ, Hughes)
“You are 100% wrong to compare his career to Koufax or Clemens. If you were right we could compare every single young pitcher to those guys if they have a bad start. Joba is in his 3rd year pitching. He has regressed since opening day. If you have failed to see that than you are not paying attention”
Actually, if you look at the first 25 or so starts of the careers of guys like Koufax or even Bob Gibson, they had the exact same struggles Joba has had. Roy Halladay was so bad he was sent back to the minors and had to work his way back to the majors. Joba never had to ‘earn’ his starting job. It was just handed to him. He had a poor spring training this year, but still had his job as the 5th starter to begin the season. It was obvious (to me at least) that Joba should’ve had the same path as hughes and kennedy and started the season in the minors.
So you are saying that Joba will become the Yankees Ace?
Ahead of CC, AJ, and Hughes?
And why then was Hughes sent to the pen? Is he not as valuable as a future starter to the Yanks?
Do you not agree that Joba has regressed so far this season? He only has the lowest average innings per start of any starter who started at least 15 games in the majors.
I think Joba needs the same kind of kick in the butt that Clemens gave to Schilling when he was out of shape, not being coachable, and wasting his talent early in his career.
The question is, is there anybody capable of doing that, and would Joba even pay attention?
Look if Joba needs time,give it to him,but not while in the middle of a pennant race.
Send him down until he’s really ready.Having him and Andy back to back,is draining.What Andy will show up today?
Andy will at least give you innings,not so nuch with Joba.
Also, are you comparing small market teams who need to develop young starters to have a chance to compete? The Yankees bought a #1 and a #2 this summer. Those guys have a handful of years here now. Joba is not our future ace. sorry. He could be our future closer….but he is not getting the chance now.
He will though…hopefully it wont be too late.
I’m not saying Joba will become the Yankees ace. Just as I’m not saying Hughes isn’t valuable to the Yankees as a starter in the future. Joba has regressed this season, which is why he should be sent to the minors until he earns his way back to the majors. Hughes had to do it, Joba should as well.
Hey, who wants Justing Verlander to pitch for his team?
Who, wanted Justin Verlander to pitch for his team last season? He really, really stunk last season. Really stunk.
This season, he’s been much better. Why? If you listen to Leyland, he’s been much less stubborn, and willing to listen more. Sound familiar?
I don’t know what’s going to happen to Joba Chamberlain, and neither does anybody else. What I do know is that it is way too early to declare anyone an unimprovable disaster at anything. The roads are littered by the bodies of certified sub-geniuses who have shot off their mouths prematurely.
murphydog -
I agree with your post. Joba is a project. And I don’t think there’s any shame in sending him to the minors to work it out, if that’s what they choose to do. It’s got some repercussions for the big league team in filling his spot right now. One could argue, though, that having Joba pitch ineffectively every 5 days is even more detrimental to the big club.
I don’t want them to give up or give up on Joba.
I don’t want them to trade for Halladay (regardless of Joba’s performances).
Rome was not built in a day.
And regardless of what Joba says to the press, we have no idea how he’s really feeling. And I’m not ready to say he’s not fixable. I agree, murphydog, some people need the same message over and over (using different methods, if necessary) until it clicks. Just because we don’t see the results doesn’t mean Joba isn’t taking what his coaches say to heart.
I’d rather see him sent down to work things out than stuck into the bullpen situation right now. For me, bullpen is a last resort for Joba.
Is Joba showing a little David Wells? Maybe. Wouldn’t most of us take another Boomer? Yes. Maybe we should change Joba’s nickname to Baby Boomer?
Some of the reaction to Joba is due to his personality (post game interviews, stubbornness, high profile off-season, failure to get into top conditioning) as much as his inability to replicate his earlier success as a two-pitch flamethrower out of the bullpen. Yeah, it’s the bigs and yeah it’s win or go home and yes, there’s no crying in baseball. But he’s a first year starter now and this ain’t Paris Island. Therefore, IMO, Joba’s lack of results so far is as much on the Yankees’ player development. They are in the business of finding a way to get through to players like Joba and Joba has a duty to make whatever changes are necessary to succeed. It’s a two-way street.
“The question is, is there anybody capable of doing that, and would Joba even pay attention?”
Joba reminds me A LOT like A.J. Burnett was early in his career with the Marlins. Maybe Burnett should have a long sit down with Joba
Yankees made the mistake already when they opted for Hughes not to stay in the rotation.
I’ve said it since Day 1…this team has the potential to win the World Series – but the pieces are just not in the right place. Management/coaches have hurt the season.
The Playoffs will be interesting. Joba and Hughes in the pen – 3 man rotation with CC, AJ and Andy.
Those are good points murph.
Here’s my biggest problem with Joba…
Its not the results per se….
Its “why” the results are what they are and his insistence that its ok. That’s not acceptable at the major league level. Definitely not acceptable in a locker room full of accountable guys. Which the Yankees possess this year.
I had Roy Halladay when he was a kid. The guy had a work ethic that was second to none. It was fanatical. Bordering on trying too much at times.
When he failed at the big league level, it was Doc, not the Jays, who made the decision to go to A Ball, rebuild his mechanics and arm slot, and come back. He pushed them to do it. How many guys today would go from the big league life to riding buses in A Ball to try and get better? You can count them on one hand and have fingers left over.
You have to want it that bad. Everybody “tries”. That’s not good enough.
Its about WANTING it. Hating to lose more than loving to win.
Just based on my own personal observations and conversations with others, that’s not Joba. At least not yet.
My opinion? Too much, too soon. Too much hype. Which the Yankees are also at fault with because they use him as a featured guy in a lot of their off field marketing.
This is a results oriented business and his results have been awful this year.
They will never give Joba away in a bad trade. That won’t happen. The organization is too smart for that.
Conversely, he’s not a lifer in the rotation either, as some believe he is.
It may well be that Joba simply doesn’t possess what some of us thought he had to be a successful starting pitcher.
Perhaps he needs 30-40 more minor league starts to see if he is a starting pitcher.
Personally, I don’t think they need to do that.
He has to go to the bullpen and try and help the team in that role.
Starting slots in a rotation have to be earned and kept through hard work. That’s not happening with Joba so, make a change.
Who knows, maybe it gets his attention because he sure sounds to me like a kid who believes he’s in the rotation for life.
His results say otherwise.
If Joba gets sent down we only have 3 starters. Who else do the Yankees get? I liked Aceves in the pen (because Bruney stinks).
SJ22-
are you the low calorie version?
And Joba learning “on the job” is as big an issue as it is because of the empty spot in the rotation.
If you don’t want to develop young players because of being in a pennant race, then the Yankees will never have the stomach for developing young players, especially pitchers. I hope the Yankees as an organization show more patience than the fan base, no matter how frustrated they may get.
The problem is the innings because of what it does to the bullpen. Earlier in the season, wasn’t Joba at least getting to the 6th more often than not?
“Joba is capable of giving you 3-4innings,he should be maybe he should be in long relief.”
he has been in long relief all season.
he just does it at the beginning of the game.
I’m not trying to start an argument with anyone, I’m honestly just wondering. Everyone is advocating that Hughes be put back into the rotation. He has made just as many career starts as Joba now and his career line is considerably worse in the starting rotation and he pitches fewer innings per 9 innings than Joba.
Where’s the correlation in why suddenly Hughes would be the starter everyone expects him to while Joba is a failure as a starter?
Sanchez of the Giants threw the first no hitter of 2oo9.Lincecum (a new young arm)lights out pitcher for that team too.
I witness him last week going 9 innings with only 95 pitches.
That’s better than CC,or AJ pitches.
On a good note .The Babe made his major league debut today in 1914.
Evan:
Take a deep breath, willya?
First, the Yankees cannot compete unless they start developing talent like the so-called “small market” teams. They cannot continue to ignore the draft and player development and compete with teams like Boston (a small market team? I think not).
Second, no, Joba may not be Sandy Koufax (make that will NOT be Sandy Koufax). My point was that he obviously isn’t ready (consistent) and the organization is on trial as much as Joba is: do they have the talent in coaching to develop him to his potential, even if he is a “special needs” (stubborn and difficult) kid?
I’m sorry for having these choppy thoughts this morning. My mind sometimes goes in a lot of directions at once.
But, I think the Yankees have to approach this as if Joba did not come up and have the initial success he had out of the bullpen – if he did not burst onto the scene like a supernova. They should take that out of the equation. What if he was not “Joba,” but “Justin?” How would they handle this?
Well, with Hughes and Kennedy, they sent them back down to get back on track. They filled in the rotation as best they could. The Yankees need a workhorse right now just to give them innings of at least decent quality. The problem is they need 2 of those types of pitchers right now. Do they have the fortitude to look at Joba long-term? Realize that he skipped a grade in school and missed a critical part of his development as a result, and have him go back and complete that skipped grade?
It’s not an easy situation. But it comes back to, Joba in the ML rotation right now is not getting them wins anyway, so what do they have to lose?
All three Yankee pitchers tonight have good stuff, but instead of pitching they were throwing the ball. I’ve been saying for a while that Joba’s problem is between the ears and he’s not allowing his natural ability to take over games. In short, he thinks too much. He’s not in the best situation to develop as a pitcher because the Yankee organization and their fanbase talk about developing players, but are really only paying lip service because “winning” is really what they’re all about.
As far as Bruney, Pete suggested he must be hurt, but if he is then why is constantly throwing 94-96 mph fastballs? I would think any type of arm injury will reflect in a decrease in velocity. IMO, he never had great command to begin with and it is surely lacking here now especially when it comes to locating his fastball. If you’re going to bust a hitter on the inside with a 96 mph fastball then you better make sure you get it in far enough so he can’t pull down the line like that batter did tonight on him.
The same with Melancon. Great stuff, but poor location.
When a pitcher can’t command his fastball then they’re in trouble and that’s what I saw tonight from all three pitchers. It’s the same problem Robertson has too even with his lesser fastball velocity.
I know the Yankee organization preaches fastball command, but some of their pitchers are currently flunking that course. Case in point, Rivera spoils us with his command, but he had problems earlier in the season too and it was because he was having trouble with location and he paid for that temporary lack of command.
Here’s the thing….
EVERYBODY has talked to him. CC, AJ, Girardi, Jeter, other teammates, Cashman, even Roger Clemens.
He’s a stubborn kid. Kids like that you have to knock down if you are ever going to get full potential out of him. Even then, its 50-50.
I can read as roster as well as the next guy.
I am fully aware the Yankees are on the short side (to put it mildly) on available starting pitchers.
However, I know that clubhouse better than 99% of the guys on the beat. I know they are sick of his act.
That’s an easy win he chucked away last night and the “sun still shines” for him today.
That stuff gets OLD when you have a guy like Andy Pettitte pitching in pain every time out, giving EVERYTHING he has to try and win one more ring.
He’s unconsolable after AVERAGE outings, let alone losses.
That’s how much he wants it.
You have Arod agreeing to intermediate hip surgery to try and come back because he wants to win so badly this year. He’s in pain everyday and grinds. So does Derek Jeter.
You have Johnny Damon playing hurt everyday. Same for Matsui and Posada.
You think these guys are going to put up with his nonsense much longer? Ain’t happenin’.
The Yankees have a very good team this year. To be where they are considering they are getting nothing from Wang and Chamberlain (for different reasons), and to overcome the injuries they have overcome to date, is amazing.
However, after the ASB Break, you have to make a push for the playoffs. This is when the games take on new meaning and seriousness. Tampa and Boston are formidable foes. Neither team is going away and not making the playoffs this year, is NOT an option.
You can’t have this kid continue to stink it up and have the “sun come out tomorow”, in his eyes. Its got to be more than that.
If it isn’t? Then, you have to make a call as to where he best fits to put you in a position to win. That trumps “innings caps” and “development” and all of those other scouting buzzwords.
If you are on a ML roster, you are in the “winning business” as a member of the Yankees. Save the development talk for the minors.
Until the results say otherwise, he’s best suited for the bullpen, given what he has shown so far this year.
If he bombs against the Tigers, that’s where he needs to go.
If the Yankees place Joba in the bullpen then they leave Aceves as a starting pitcher. However, they still need to get another starting pitcher.
Hughes had shown signs of brilliance in his last few starts prior to joining the pen (see Texas 8 IP shutout). Joba had one good start this year of 8 IP vs AAA Indians without Sizemore and Martinez.
And Joba has only gotten worse as a starter. Everyone only thinks of him as “special” because of what he did in the pen 2 years ago. Not to mention his velocity is way down and it affects his other pitches. As a reliever he can let it loose and pump 98 MPH fastballs and not have to worry about pacing himself.
I also think Hughes is much more mature but that’s not saying much. Joba is a baby.
Doreen,
I agree with your assessment entirely
2-10….that is our record against the BoSux and Los Angeles of Orange County located in the Southern 33% of one the western U.S. states Angles….2-10…If you think the road to the W.S. will not go through at least one of those teams, you are a true dolt…. Leading 5-1, I made the mistake of going to be thinking we we going to win the game, only to wake up to see a big stinkin L and that from that point, we we only outscored 9-1. No Matter how good we do in stretches against teams we won’t see in the playoffs, our performances agains Boston and LAA will be a good “look” at what to expect in the “real season” that starts at game 163. 2-10….that is the “playoff record” of the Yankees so far this year…and I am pretty sure that means an exit again in the 1st round…
and my fast typin’ fingers helped my spelling little…sorry…
IMO, the Yankees have to be seriously talking internally on what it would take to get Halladay. If it means trading Joba or Hughes for him then you do it. Again, developing pitching is a noble goal, but the New York Yankees are about winning WS championships and trading for Halladay will push them closer to that goal.
just out of curiosity who fixed halliday when he was 24 ?
i also notice that he started 103 games in the minor leagues.
I like SJ44 posts….he is on the money each time. If I knew you I’d take you to a game. I sit in section 234 if you want to come visit me.
Although, I don’t go to Joba games – too frustrating watching the bullpen start the game.
If memory serves me correctly, Hughes had 7 starts so far this season and only made it past the 5th innings in 2 of them and those 2 starts were the only ones in which he allowed less than 3 runs (he allowed 0 in both).
I know he had that tremendous start against Texas, but he also let up 4 runs in 5 innings against that same AAA Indians team the day before Joba let up 2 runs in 8 innings.
The Playoffs are a different animal. They dominated Cleveland in the regular season and went down fairly easily to them in the 2007 playoffs. And if I’m not mistaken, the Angels handled Boston okay during the regular season, but Boston owned them in the playoffs.
One thing at a time. Plus, I’m not ready to say the Yankees can’t beat Boston. They haven’t beat them yet this year, that’s a fact. But to say they “can’t?”
SJ:
Agreed on the differences between Doc and Joba personality wise. It’s all the talk in the draft these days of seeking out high character guys, (like your nephew, BTW) because if you are going to invest your hopes and millions of dollars in a kid, you want to get an assurance that at least he will be coachable and give 110%.
But Joba’s personality must have been known to the Yankees when they drafted him. If they are going to go high-risk/high-reward they need to be ready to work a kid like this. If they need to teach him a pitch, they have the skills. But if they need to open his eyes, can they? It comes down to being able to lead a horse to water but not being able to make him drink. Are the Yankees facing a lot of this because they draft so low they can’t get high character guys? Or is it just the usual crapshoot when it comes to pitchers?
gloom and doom – good point.
While I do believe the Yankees will make the playoffs, I agree they have feasted on bad teams (twins aren’t bad – Im talking about mets, mariners, Jays who are terrible now, etc). We need to pick it up against the elite.
Anyone know Joba’s career record/ERA vs. Boston and LA Angels?
Randy,
I think it was Mel Queen that got Halladay to change his delivery and get him to throw from a three-quarters arm slot. I could be wrong though, so don’t hold me to that
Another thing I agree with SJ44 about is it came to fast for Joba. He received too much praise for not really accomplishing anything yet, unlike, a Tim Lincecum who has earned his praises by winning a Cy Young and possibly winning another one this season.
The NY media and Yankee fans heaped too much praise on a couple of months work in the bullpen.
Evan,
I don’t know Joba’s career against the Angels, but I know against Boston he is 2 – 1 (8 games, 4 starts) with a 3.49 era in 28.1 innings, allowing 27 hits, 14 walks and striking out 33
Makes me long for the days of worrying about what to do with the overabundance of starting pitchers when Wang was getting ready to come off the DL the first time. This is why you never complain or gloat about too much pitching. It is amazing how too many always turns into “where did they all go”.
Evan,
to follow up, I think last night was Joba’s first career start against the Angels. Before that I think he had only pitched a few innings in relief against them.
Joba isn’t a winner. He’s a whiner. Period.
I don’t know what is worse: Watching Joba start or watching the Knicks run out Eddy Curry, Jared Jeffries, Larry Hughes, Chris Duhon and Danillo Gallinari. (Yes, I suffer as a Knicks fan).
We had two Joba’s again last night. The one who pitches with the bases empty and the one who pitches with guys on base.
He was attacking hitters last night with the bases empty more than he has in most of his starts this year.
Once guys reached base, “Bad Joba” returned. Worked slower, nibbled, tried to trick people, and then basically packed it in throwing a BP curveball to Morales. That was a, “I don’t want to be out here” pitch. That’s unacceptable and inexcusable.
That’s what I mean when I say you have to have the head to be a starting pitcher. At least at this time, he doesn’t.
Its a real, real dilemma for the Yankees. Its one thing to love your “propects”. Its another to have them pitch you out of the playoffs. No team loves that.
That Detroit start is going to be very interesting.
I agree with Pete. He just may be pitching for his spot in the rotation in that outing.
Thanks Ramey for the stats….I;m surprised by them.
SJ,
I agree with you when you say that there are two Joba’s. One with the bases empty and one with runner’s on. What do you think causes him to be so tentative with his pitches once runner’s get on?
If the Yankees trade for a starter (to fill in for Wang’s injury) and Wang comes back, it will be interesting to see what they do then with Joba’s corpse.
As Randy says – do they let him pitch his long relief at the beginning of the game – or middle-late innings of the game.
Last night was Joba’s first start against LA. Last two years in relief, 3IP, 2 hits, 0 runs, 6 Ks.
Evan,
no problem. I was actually surprised myself that he has had so much success against Boston in his career so far. The teams that he actually pitches the worst against (other than the Angels now) are the Indians and Rangers.
In my opinion, his nibbling is just from immaturity. He is young and is still learning to attack.
He also has to trust the catchers more and I don’t think he does. He might not be waving them off as much because of the backlash from that episode but he certainly doesn’t seem to have confidence in his pitches with guys on base.
On the flip side – look at the confidence Hughes is pitching with. It’s a pleasure to watch him. I think confidence is the biggest thing in baseball – just watch Rivera – a pitching machine.
Enjoy the game later everyone – on the bright side we don’t have to see Joba for a week now!
Evan,
But isn’t hughes pitching with the same confidence and swagger that Joba USED to have when he came out of the bullpen? Somewhere along the way, Joba lost that (along with about 7mph on his fastball haha)
If Joba continues to pitch poorly, sooner or later, Cashman and the rest of the Yankee Brass will have to swallow a bitter pill and do the right thing for the Yankee organization. They will take heat from fans and media alike that thought Joba should’ve been a reliever from the get go, but in the end, they have to what’s best for the organization.
The rubber is getting very close to hitting the road.
“The teams that he actually pitches the worst against (other than the Angels now) are the Indians and Rangers.”
I really don’t think Joba’s struggles have to do so much with the team he is pitching against as it does with him missing something. I think we would have seen similar results last night if he pitched against KC, Seattle, or Oakland.
murph,
He’s changed a little from the time he came up. His attitude isn’t what it was and, IMO, its contributing to his problems.
He’s not a bad kid at all. He’s not a troublemaker or anything like that.
However, his ego outpaces his performances at this point in his career. Simply put, 23 or not, he’s too talented to be this bad, this often. That’s unacceptable.
That’s why guys around the league and some (more than people will ever know) in his own clubhouse don’t like him.
He has to humble and accountable. They have had enough meetings with him on it. Nothing seems to work.
I would give him the start against the Tigers. If its the usual Joba stuff, he goes to the bullpen, Ace and Mitre go into the rotation, and you look for another starter to take you the rest of the way.
This team has to make the playoffs this year. That trumps Joba’s feelings or frankly, his “development”.
He has to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. Right now, he’s part of the problem.
It can only go 3 ways:
1. He pitches better as a starter. Given what we are seeing, probably the least likely to occur.
2. He helps the team out of the bullpen and perhaps finds his niche.
3. He goes to the minors and starts. May be nice for his “development” but, it leaves the Yankees short a pitcher for a playoff run.
At this point, nothing has worked with him. Only thing left is the tough love approach.
Cash is king,
Do you think Joba can really be an effective reliever at this point? That low 90′s fastball with little movement seems a lot like what Bruney is throwing recently
“I really don’t think Joba’s struggles have to do so much with the team he is pitching against as it does with him missing something. I think we would have seen similar results last night if he pitched against KC, Seattle, or Oakland.”
Good point. He wasn’t really fooling anyone last night after he lost his composure when a runner got on base
Maybe Joba’s problem is his flat-brimmed hat. I never liked it, but as long as he was pitching well, so what. Time to get some curve in that hat!
Without a major deal could we be looking at Aceves and Mitre in the rotation soono? Not sure that’s very good.
Cliff Lee will probably be on the market soon as well. The price tag for him will probably be every bit as high.
Whoever it is that’s been clamoring for Jonathan Sanchez on this blog sure looks like a genius today. Of course after the no hitter he’s 3-8 and his ERA is 4.69
Tim Lincecum is a freak by today’s standards. He’s got that amazing, machine-like delivery and apparently a head to go with it at the same time. He’s got the inside and outside game going.
Phil Hughes for example seems to be getting his interior game up to MLB ready by pitching out of the bullpen and attacking hitters, learning, as they say, how to get hitters out.
It takes different things for different pitchers. Until that thing clicks, it doesn’t work. Learning to ride a bicycle is my favorite example. One day you can’t and then one day suddenly it clicks and you don’t fall. And you never forget how. It needs to click for Joba. They can talk to him until they’re blue in the face but until it clicks, either by experimenting on his own or by giving him the “one thing.”
From City Slickers
Curly: You know what the secret of life is?
Mitch: No, what?
Curly: This.
Mitch: Your finger?
Curly: One thing. Just one thing. You stick to that and everything else don’t mean [blank].
Mitch: That’s great, but what’s the one thing?
Curly: That’s what you’ve got to figure out.
Mark in Tampa -
Hey, whatever works, right??
Joba = OVERRATED….he needs to get some help. Sent down to the minors for a couple of weeks to get his big head shrunk some & get his pitch command in order, he just can’t put batters away on 0-2,1-2,2-2 counts
Ramson needs to be let go of, I could bat .176 & have a OBP of
.232 how this guy is in the majors or playing for the Yankees is beyond me
along the
thanks ramey. it would be interesting to see what he queen with halliday.
my gallery manager has a 9 week old jack russel puppy behind the counter during regular business hours. the puppy learned to bark really loud at one point and basically be very demanding. none of us new anything about dogs, but but some quick reading showed that puppies are going to find their place in the pack by how the rest of the pack reacts to them.
we ignored the barking and didn’t go to the puppy and no more barking.
joba came up as a puppy who soon learned the world revolved around him. he thinks he’s the leader of the pack. this isn’t rocket science. roy halliday started 143 games in the minors. he learned his place in the pack.
i was in a triple a office where i saw garza shot down when he whined and told to get out of the office. that was when he was pouting because he wasn’t in the majors. young pitchers especially when they are really good need to be put in their proper place on the team.
that’s not as the leader of the team. they are newbies who have to earn everything they get or you get where joba is now.
that triple a manager eventually got garza’s respect and it was a turning point in garza’s career. he pitched well for rochester once he quit trying to be in charge.
joba needs to be told very firmly that things are going to be different or he’s going to scranton. if he doesn’t believe it, send him there until he knows his place.
at this point it’s going to be tough to change bad behavior the yankees have encouraged by making him think the yankees revolve around him. being in a pennant race complicates the situation because they can’t really afford to lose a starter right now.
along the way the press & the fans told Joba he was a star
Ramey,
Bruney is throwing his normal velocity, its locating his fastball that is the problem.
In regard to Joba, his fastball velocity has been inconsistent, but I think he can regain some velocity in the bullpen. However, with that being said, I’m just advocating taking him out of the starting rotation. After that they have three options with him. We’ve already talked about those three options.
If Wang and Kennedy were healthy I would really recommend sending him down but I just don’t think Sergio Mitre over a long stretch is good option.
they can’t send Ramson down because they are afraid he will get claimed, I hope they aren’t serious
It wasn’t a “real” Angels lineup last night. No Hunter, no Vlad, no Kendrick, a lifetime .450 hitter against the Yankees.
Staked to a 4 run lead TWICE, he can’t get you through 5 innings without blowing the lead.
If he can’t do that against a depleted lineup, you think he’s doing that against the Red Sox, Rays, Tigers, etc?
At some point, you have to produce. If not, you try someone else. Its not that complicated.
randy,
nice comparison with joba to the puppies haha…it works pretty well. i think that he’s beyond the point of having someone sit down with him and talk to him though, it just seems like it’s falling on deaf ears, because it HAD to have occurred already.
Even IF they send him down to the minors, would they really be losing a starter right now? couldn’t igawa, mitre or anybody else give them the same 4 innings Joba’s been giving them recently? And i just don’t see how moving him to the bullpen would help. He’s having trouble getting major league hitters out, ESPECIALLY when there are runners on base.
how could they bring him into the game in relief, if there are runners on, knowing that’s when he wilts?
Halladay is a known quantity – Joba is not.
Let it be known to Joba that he’s on a short leash based on his work etheic and willingness to learn and succeed.
It’s not like the Yankees don’t have arms down below to make fans forget about Joba and his overhype.
In the grand scheme of things, the Yankees want last year forgotten and this year to be a successful postseason.
If Joba is in the way of Yankee progress then part company with him sooner than later.
SJ:
I can only imagine how much counseling he’s already had from Eiland and Girardi and regular rotation guys and even the towel guy. It’s probably real clear to him how few people on the team trust him with the ball and it probably kills him after being Mr. Lights Out while doing bullpen duty as the 8th inning guy.
Talking more is only going to screw him up further. Tough love it is. He either finds his “One Thing” in Detroit or he can look for it in Scranton.
they have two needs at this time, a vet SP( who can get innings) & a lock down 8th inning RP
I would stay away from Cliff Lee. He could be just as expensive, prospect-wise, as Halladay, but not nearly as good. Just a couple of years ago he was Joba, going back to the minors after a successful season. I think he is more likely to be the pitcher of 2-3 years ago than the pitcher he was last year. I think we would get him and then very quickly be questioning why we gave up anything important to put an average pitcher in the rotation.
has anyone noticed since he stop pitching inside to batters he lost an edge
Randy,
Exactly right. That’s been my point all along.
Enough is enough. If this kid wants to be a successful starting pitcher in the majors, doing it his way ended last night.
If he believes otherwise, Scranton awaits.
The Yankees somehow won 26 World Championships without Joba Chamberlain. Something tells me they can find a way to win another one if this kid flames out.
You want to “develop” him? Give him a reality check ASAP.
That will hasten his development much faster than talking to him about fastball location, pace, etc.
If it doesn’t work? Then, you have the answer you need. He’s not the player you thought he was and move on.
Its all you can do with him at this point.
Ive said it before and I will say it again with Jobba- the apple doesnt fall too far from the tree with this kid. The DUI, the complete and utter stubborness on the mound, the lack of accountability, the meth-dealing mother… he will never amount to anything. Oh- I notice we no longer see the shots of Harlan on his scooter this season. Why is that? Could it be because his son is nothing more than a Kevin Mass-esque flash-in-the-pan? I think so.
explain to me why Cody is still on this team
ramey-
i see your point about falling on deaf ears no matter who tells joba the way it should be.
since the yankees need to get a message to him, the question is how to get the message through to him.
i’d try sending him to the bullpen to be a two inning guy for a few times through the rotation. it would cut down on his innings and send a message without totally hurting the team.
if joba goes into a funk over it , he would have to deal with all the veterans telling him to toughen up and do his job.
joba also may not have the emotional IQ to have four days off between starts. he’s got that puffy look that often shows up when a player isn’t shall we say getting his beauty rest.
Dr. Spaceman -
That is one of the cruelest posts I’ve seen here and completely unnecessary.
“explain to me why Cody is still on this team”
Because the Yankees already got rid of Veras and Berroa. So if we get rid of Ransom we are officially out of “guys who don’t belong on the team”
Why is Ransom with the ML club right now? He does not give the Yanks the best team they can have. He cannot play short or second base legitimately. Pena can. His bat is OK for a once or twice a week player, but Pena is more versatile at the plate and seems to put the ball in play a lot more. Pena is faster. Pena had some problems at third earlier this year, but Ransom is an automatic 1 or 2 errors per game over there. Despite what Cashman would have us believe.
It may be best for Pena to play everyday in the minors, but it is best for the 2009 Yankees for Pena to be in the majors now. Put it this way, if the Yanks were making their playoff roster now, IMO, Pena would be on it and Ransom would be off.
# Ramey July 11th, 2009 at 9:28 am
“explain to me why Cody is still on this team”
Because the Yankees already got rid of Veras and Berroa. So if we get rid of Ransom we are officially out of “guys who don’t belong on the team”
BINGO !!!!
Randy-
you make a good point about joba maybe not exactly ‘being up to snuff’ with 4 days of rest in between starts. maybe that’s something that could come along with age, or he just needs to realize only david wells can pitch well when hungover.
” Ramey July 11th, 2009 at 9:28 am
“explain to me why Cody is still on this team”
Because the Yankees already got rid of Veras and Berroa. So if we get rid of Ransom we are officially out of “guys who don’t belong on the team”
BINGO !!!!”
Actually, can we throw Tomko into that discussion too? Or am I getting ahead of myself?
at this time they are playing with 3-4 players short, Joba,Cody,Tomko & Bruney none of them are doing anything to help this team win & they are winning in spite of them
Dr. Spaceman:
Time out for flagrant foul.
randy:
The only problem I have with sending him to the BP is arm trouble. He may dial it up again and hurt it. I’d let him go down to Scranton and start over at this point; after all, his prior bullpen time didn’t teach him how to get guys out apparently.
With 20 days to go, Cashman can put together a package that will interest Toronto with several cost controlled players including Joba.
One stipulation. Jesus Montero is not involved.
Roy Halladay is a difference maker …. Joba Chamberlain is not. The Yankees have learned the hard lesson that pitching wins championships.
two things = the Joba downfall…is injury & his not pitching inside to ML hitters
With 20 days to go, Cashman can put together a package that will interest Toronto with several cost controlled players including Joba.
One stipulation. Jesus Montero is not involved.
Roy Halladay is a difference maker …. Joba Chamberlain is not. The Yankees have learned the hard lesson that pitching wins championships.
————————————————————-
might work but they are going to need to get Joba to pitch really well in a game or two otherwise I don’t see Tor wanting him
All I know is I’m sick and tired,of giving the RS first place,and they not have to work for it.
Joba and all the questions about this team rotation was excused.They are entering the second half with no answers.
Last night they walked Melky to load the bases,knowing Cody
WAS A SURE OUT,bating 180 something.Cody’s spot bugs me.His defense imo doesn’t out weigh needing a strong bat in the line up.
I think the Toronto has to be looking for a rotation-ready pitcher in any deal involving Roy. Joba’s troubles make him less attractive as a part of the deal and Hughes isn’t stretched out enough. Any thoughts?
doreen-
red sox fan.
they hate joba
Just one player remains from the so-called “Generation Tre”.
Phil Hughes.
joeman:
Obviously we agree about Joba not looking good to Toronto right now
Can we teach Hinske how to play second base and short stop? I mean he already knows how to play 1st, 3rd, left and right. I say just make him learn 2nd and short, so the next time jeter or cano need a day off, we have somebody who can hit AND field (barring ramiro isn’t back up at this point)
I don’t even think Cody is a AAA player…three moves the Yankees need to make to distance themselves from TB & Bos…vet SP (who can get innings,lock down 8 inning RP & a utility player
Jobber Jobber Jobber
~just shaking my head at him~
now Hinske playing SS or 2nd base would be a treat to watch
“~just shaking my head at him~”
Don’t shake your head too much, you may be mistaken for him shaking off a sign
It wasn’t real Yankee pitchers last night,that lost to the not so real Angels line up either,and yet they won.
murphydog-
i’m already concerned about the health of joba’s arm. it doesn’t seem right.
i wouldn’t be surprised to see him come down with a sore something.
his velocity has been off most of the year.
sometimes an injury doesn’t show up as pain , but as weakness before moving on to pain.
a stint in the bullpen to rest him, work on mechanics plus send him the message that he doesn’t always get to do what he wants may not be such a bad idea.
i agree though that there’s no easy answer to what to do with joba. being in a pennant race complicates what to do with him.
“three moves the Yankees need to make to distance themselves from TB & Bos…vet SP (who can get innings,lock down 8 inning RP & a utility player”
I think that the Yanks have two of these. Pena was an ideal utility player when he was up. Defense, decent speed, good bat control. No power and not going to be a great hitter, but what utility player is?
If they elect to keep Hughes in the pen, he can be the lock down 8th inning guy. He can be at least as good as anybody available in a trade. That leaves them 1 starter short, assuming Wang will not be right this year.
Another injury to blame on Cashman.
The only problem I see with moving Joba to the pen or to Scranton is they have no option to replace him.
I back end rotation of Mitre and Aceves is no going to hold off the Sox or Rays, IMO.
Maybe Phil and Joba flip-flop. Except I’m not sure given the quality of his pitches, that Joba would be any more effective in the pen.
“~just shaking my head at him~”
Don’t shake your head too much, you may be mistaken for him shaking off a sign
====================================
Hahahahahaha
Right now I owuld think Hughes and Montero are the only guys the Yankees would not discuss in a potential Halladay trade… though Austin Jackson and Zach McAllister would be very difficult to pry loose.
So what Joba needs is to be smacked on the news with a newspaper the next time he melts down on the mound? I hope they do it on the field for all to see.
I wouldn’t worry about going from starting to releiving. It’s the other transition that has a much greater potential to do damage. It’s not like they would move Joba to the pen and have him pitch every day right away.
What other starting pitcher possibilities do you guys see out there? Gil Meche?
“now Hinske playing SS or 2nd base would be a treat to watch”
I wouldn’t have enough confidence in Hinske’s defense to have him as the guy in the bullpen who protects the pitchers from getting hit by foul balls.
RS fan hate Joba,because he aimed a ball at the head of 1st baseman,meat head crybaby YUK!!
Nice to see the cake schedule for the Red Sux in the second half…..Yankees need to send Joba back to the bullpen and either aquire another starter, or promote Mitre…….Demote Bruney
Joba’s comments are starting to feel a lot like Ian Kennedy. Anyone remember this:
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....038;st=cse
Kennedy got shelled by the Angels, said he thought he had good stuff. It pissed off the veterans, and a day later he was back in the minors.
It would probably do well for Joba and that Yankees if No. 62 took the same route. Joba could use a change of perspective, if you ask me.
“I wouldn’t have enough confidence in Hinske’s defense to have him as the guy in the bullpen who protects the pitchers from getting hit by foul balls.”
Can we give that job to Ransom?
Cleve is intrested in trading three players who would make the Yankees a WS team…C Lee (innings eater),K Wood (lock down 8th inning RP) & J Carroll ( utility infielder)…now how could they get this done ?
randy:
If there is any concern about his arm already, IMO, regular work in Scranton is better than the bullpen, isn’t it? I’d readily defer to your view, but IMO, he needs to build up the ability to get the same 9 guys out three or four times a game. That’s really his problem IMO. He has shown he can get three or four guys out once.
One way to make a bad deal is to make one in desperation mode. If you want Roy Halladay now, you overpay, maybe give up guys who really blossom down the road. There have been a lot of good ballplayers who started in the Yankees organization and were sent out in dumb moves – Jay Buhner of Steinfeld fame comes to mind. (“You traded Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps!!!”)
If it were up to me, I’d get Ace and Mitre ready as starters (that’s what they were signed to do in the first place, wasn’t it?). Between Wang and Joba, there’s a good chance both of Ace and Mitre will make a few starts. Then, tell Joba that the next start (Detroit?) is make or break.
If Joba gets it done, terrific. If not, then he loses his spot to Ace/Mitre/whomever Cash deals for, say Washburn for the sake of argument. And Joba takes Ace’s place in the pen for the foreseeable future this year, until he figures it out.
We’re essentially tied with Boston at the ASB. Pretty good. Now we have to make that push and seal a playoff spot. No time to put up with Joba and his issues at this point. Not saying forget him, but his development has to be secondary to winning.
I heard Garland pitcher of the. Diamond backs is available,because he’ll give innings and has post season experience with a WS win.
Joba is a mess right now,and I wouldn’t even trust him in the bullpen. Melancon, Albaladejo, Robertson, and now Bruney can’t be trusted in close games. We don’t know if Wang will be able to pitch effectively at all this year. Pettitte was awful after the All-Star break last year.
Playoff teams don’t advance too far by trying to club the other team into submission.
If Aceves and Hughes are moved into the rotation, that leaves you with only old reliable, Rivera, and Coke in the bullpen, who the Yankee coaching staff trusts.
A number of contending teams are currently looking for both starting and relief help, which will undoubtedly become a sellers market.
I wouldn’t get your hopes up that a Halladay, Bell, or Street will be coming our way.
joeman;
cliff lee is looking more like the pitcher he was 3 years ago (the one who got sent back to the minors) than the cy young winner from last year. And Kerry wood couldn’t get anybody out for almost 3 months of the season and has a huge contract. why would we want either of them?
Baseball America-Aroldis Chapman is 21:
http://www.theyankeeuniverse.com/?p=5357
The good news is that Chapman is only 21 years old. The bad news is that it may take MLB a whole year to clear his paperwork. In the meantime, I hope the Yankees go ahead and sign Noel Arguelles (a 19 year old left handed Cuban defector). There’s no sense in dillydallying on him any longer. The Yankees should make sure to put enough money in the budget to sign Chapman in 2010.
“–The Angels announcers were saying the Yanks don’t really have a number one guy who will shut out the opponent and you’ll always be able to score some runs off each starter.”
The Angels announcers don’t know what they’re talking about then.
I have been talking Street for well over a month now, but his HOT stretch would cost the Yankees
William Buckner:
“The only problem I see with moving Joba to the pen or to Scranton is they have no option to replace him.”
It’s really a lesser of two evils thing, I think. Either keep running Joba out there for 5 or less innings and exhaust your bullpen or find an innings eater for your number 5 guy. The real killer in being able to hold off the Sox is not Joba but Wang, although after losing Wang, everything else get harder.
IMO kind of forces Cash to consider getting an innings eater in a trade at the very least, if not take the plunge for Halladay.
A few thoughts: With Joba struggling for much of the season I don’t know why anyone would think Toronto would accept a trade from the NYY with Joba as the centerpiece. I’m not giving up on Joba as a starter for his career, but as Joe said about Wang, “This isn’t a developmental league.” Through half the season he hasn’t shown progress. The stretch drive is approaching and the NYY are at the point where they need results. The team comes first. If Joba doesn’t turn it around in his next start or two, he needs to step aside (pen, AAA?). As someone previously pointed out, there are too many vets on that team hungry to win a WS. Now is no time for hoping things turn around. If Bruney were pitching like he can, it would give the NYY the option of stretching PH out and putting him back in the rotation. Cone said it could be done in 3 weeks with no risk of injury. But I’m not optimistic about Bruney so I don’t see that happening. Right now the NYY have 2 reliable SP, CC & AJ. I do give Andy some credit though. Even when he struggles he will usually at least give the team inninga. Mitre as a SP? You gotta be kidding. He’s a journeyman at best. Might as well get Rasner back from Japan. Don’t get fooled by his AAA #s. Igawa has really good AA #s too. I’m confident the NYY will win the division, but I think the decisions Joe & Cashman make over the next few weeks will be instrumental in doing so.
# Ramey July 11th, 2009 at 9:58 am
joeman;
cliff lee is looking more like the pitcher he was 3 years ago (the one who got sent back to the minors) than the cy young winner from last year. And Kerry wood couldn’t get anybody out for almost 3 months of the season and has a huge contract. why would we want either of them?
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tossing names out there…help is needed & three positions & if they get it they will be in the WS
Just HANDING over the lead to the RS in division play is sickening.
86w183-
I don’t see any KC pitchers being available right now, as they seem to be in a buying mode, thinking they can make a 2nd half move with their excellent starting pitching.
As far as Kerry Wood, the Yankees are unlikely to take on his salary, to be a set-up guy.
At this point, the only teams that seemed resigned not to make the playoffs are the Nationals, Diamondbacks, Padres, A’s, Indians, and Orioles. Maybe a trade by the July 31st deadline can be made with one of those teams.
Question folks: Could Joba be tipping his pitches?
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I think that Joba Chamberlain is having the same problem that Ron Guidry had at the beginning of his major league career. That is, his fastball is too straight. Last night most of the hits were off of his fastball (except the Morales homer). It appears that major league hitters have realized that his fastball is straight as an arrow (it does tail off in any direction) and are trying to lay off all of the other pitches…sitting on the fastball.
I can’t rememeber how Guidry solved the problem with his fastball being too straight, but in his prime he could start the heater in the middle ogf the strike zone and it would move to the outside corner of the plate (away from right hand hitters). That tailing fastball when combined with the slider that Sparky Lyle taught him transformed Guidry from a struggling player who failed in 3 big league callups to an eventual big league ace.
Joba Chamberlain already has a nasty slider…he now needs to find a way to make his fastball move…whether its 91 MPH or 96 MPH.
I have been talking Street for well over a month now, but his HOT stretch would cost the Yankees.
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I think the Yankees will now have to wait until the offseason to get Huston Street. The good news (from a Yankees perspective) is that Street is arbitration eligble next year and I doubt that the Rockies want to get hosed in arbitration…so they might make him available.
the ideal situation for the Yankees to get a lock down 8th inning RP would be to go get the vet closer & is a FA in 2010…Valverde,Hoffman,Gonzalez,Lyon…one of these guys is better than what they have
Kerry Wood — for $ 10 Million next year? And he’s not as good as Hughes? Craziness
Lee is certainly a good starter. Not Halladay good, but good.
By the Angels announcers’ standard NO ONE has a pitcher who shuts everyone out. What an idiotic comment
the talk of Hughes being a 8th inning RP won’t work
New Thread——->
Just keep throwing Joba out there. He’ll find his way and have the fans eating out of his hand in no time. It’s not like the Yankees are playing awful and he’s the main cause. Just relax and let this kid get his feet under him. He’s taking his lumps now but when he hits his stride these last few mediocre starts will be a distant memory. I know it’s hard to be patient and most Yankee fans don’t have the fortitude to let kids develop. But in Jobas’ case you have to give him a chance. The stuff is there. Once the mental aspect catches up he’s going to really be something special.
Joeman — You’d take Valverde or Lyon over Hughes? Please don’t call Cashman with that idea.
If the Yankees make a significant move it will be for a starting pitcher AFTER they conclude that Wang isn’t making it back. Until then I expect them to continue nursing Joba and trying to get by.
Hughes is a SP & how they got themselves into this situation is a shame, their bullpen in the beginning of the year was suppose to be a strong point & when it fell apart fixing it has been a problem. Hughes should have been the next guy to step into the starting rotation when needed
As far as the game goes why do the Yankees seem to fall apart in Anaheim? It always seems to be an error that opens the flood gates. As much as Joba struggled if the Yankees play a clean game and make the fielding plays they were supposed to they probably could have overcome Jobas’ performance. I know errors happen but why does it seem they always happen against the Angels or Red Sox?
Joeman do you really think Trevor Hhoffman (the 1 guy with more saves than MO)will come to the Yankees,really?
We are talking right now, dude. Hughes is not going back into the rotation now it would be very risky for his health.
It’s ten times easier to go from starting to relieving than vice versa. We’re past mid-season and that’s no time to send a guy to the minors and spend a month building him back up for 5-6 innings. Not worth it.
I disagree with the notion that Kansas City wouldn’t deal Meche. They could get a lot of payroll flexibility with a move like that. Meche isn’t great. But he’ll give you seven innings and 3-4 runs just about every time.
Hey….Jaba needs to go down to Triple A. He has good stuff and great potential. Needs some discipline, encouragement and retraining of his attitude and thoughts. Shouldn’t give up on him. My tee shirt says “I Believe In Jaba!” Time will be in his favor if he makes up his mind to follow instructions and trust in himself as well as those who are trying to help him.
the four years Valverde has been a closer he’s has average 36 saves….I would trust him more in the 8th inning than Hughes who needs to be a SP
If the team gets any more relaxed waiting for Joba,they’ll be watching the playoffs,from their Media rooms at home.He’s had all first half to work on his foibles,next.
Hoffman was talking retirement last year why wouldn’t he come the the Yankees to get a WS ring
From last post:
I would be surprised – but not shocked – if Joba is traded. Not surprised at all if he is sent down until September. I think you don’t give up on a guy with his potential until he’s well and truly shown he’s a bust. At this point he is still in “enigma” stage.
Not that we would ever necessarily know but you have to think this is one of the reasons you get guys like CC and AJ – to whomp on the kids when they need to be set straight. Joba needs a good kick in the balls and a whole lot of tough love.
Valverde after his injury has been throwing gas.. 98 mph
Ramey,
Bruney is throwing his normal velocity, its locating his fastball that is the problem.
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His location on the slider is even worse than his location on the fastball. He is throwing the slider above the hitters waistand in some case out of the strike zone high. He won’t be able to stay in the majors until he gets it down some.
“The Angels announcers were saying the Yanks don’t really have a number one guy who will shut out the opponent”
The Angels announcers must have missed the news that CC Sabathia was signed by the Yankees. And AJ Burnett says hello.
Remember back in the “old” days when starters were sent to the pen because of ineffectiveness ? Well, not the case with Joba, he BELONGS THERE PERIOD!!! He was born for that role!!! He’s the only guy on the horizon to replace Mo in the near future!!! If he can go back to what he was in pen before, he doesn’t have to use 4 pitches!!! 2, maybe 3 at the most. Can help Yanks much more throwing 1-2 innings while preparing for closer role!!!