Live video chat on Thursday
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jul 14, 2009 
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Our latest live video chat will be Thursday at 1 p.m. It’ll be a preview of the second half of the season and I’ll try and come up with a trade package for Roy Halladay that doesn’t include Phil Hughes or Jesus Montero.
Go to LoHud.com/ProTalkLive to join in and ask your questions.
The chat is sponsored by Friedrich Air Conditioning.
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Chad Huffman of the Portland Beavers beat our man Shelley Duncan in the Triple-A All-Star Home Run Derby last night. Huffman finished the three-round competition with 15 home runs. Duncan hit 10.
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Mark Feinsand of the News will be on WFAN from the All-Star Game at 11:05 a.m.. He’ll be on with Kim Jones and Adam The Bull. Give it a listen.
damn, i would’ve loved to see Shelley in a homerun derby!
Still smarting from being outbid by the Yankees for Tex who the Sox really wanted it will be interesting if they are willing to up the ante in any bidding war for Halladay.
It is reported that there were two Blue Jay scouts at Pawtucket’s game on Sunday when Bucholtz was pitching.
I don’t put a lot of significance on that but do find it interesting.
Doreen, sorry about the “we” slip. We being our team. I don’t know why it such a pet peeve of people. I take ownership for rooting for my team as does 99% of the people on this blog. Therefore, it’s a collective “We”. But, if it annoys you I will say they.
Fact is the 2 games “they” took from the Angels, the Angels were coming off that tragedy to their young pitcher. They looked lifeless and rightfully so. Also, they couldn’t beat them now. A team can expect to win only at home and make it far in the playoffs.
The game is largely phychological once pit teams in a short series. Both those teams are in the Yanks heads. It’s not a defeatist attitude, it’s a realistic attitude.
if the yankees traded hughes plus prospects for ian snell cashman should be fired on the spot.
can = can’t
Pete,
Does that mean you’re including Joba for Halladay. IMO, I think it’s going to take Joba or Hughes to get the trade done. If Boston is not willing to give up Buchholz, I think our offer will be hard to beat.
Also, for people who think that Halladay is not interested in playing for the Yanks.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....onday.html
•At some point in a player’s career it’s time to win, and Halladay says winning is the most important thing for him now.
•Newsday’s Ken Davidoff says Halladay wouldn’t mind pitching in the National League.
•Halladay would also consider a trade to the Yankees, according to Davidoff.
bru wouldn’t happen. Snell is not good, he would not require Phil Hughes to pry loose from Pittsburgh. That said, I don’t think the Yankees should touch him unless Pittsburgh is paying his salary (that arrangement for Hinske has worked out well so far) and the cost in prospects is minimal. It would be a low-risk, moderate-reward (Snell’s upside seems like mediocre 4th or 5th starter) move if it happened but I think the Hughes connection is not realistic.
“if the yankees traded hughes plus prospects for ian snell cashman should be fired on the spot.”
Any fan should be fired if they think Cashman will ever think of trading Hughes right now for a pitcher demoted to the minor leagues by the Pirates of all teams.
Cash,
Why do you think Boston might not be willing to give up Bucholtz?
I haven’t seen anyplace that they wouldn’t be willing to, but I could be wrong.
Boston is waiting for the price to come down? You snooze you lose, MT curse, redux.
Hey guys – I bought some dreaded “Section 239″ tickets for the 7/17 game against detroit. They are 3rd row, seats 1-4. I know these are “obstructed view” – but I’ve heard that the lower your row – the better the view. Does anyone know if I have any reason to remain hopeful that I’m not entirely screwed here?
personally, I don’t look at trading a guy like Joba for Hallary as mortgaging the future to win now…the Yankees would have Halladay for this season and AT LEAST all of next season, and you’d be crazy to think the Yankees wouldn’t do everything they could to sign him for at least 3 seasons beyond that. in the mean time the Yankees would basically have to replace Joba’s potential with more potential. I find it just as likely that the Yankees could find another potential 15 game winner as it is that Joba will ever become that pitcher. The smaller market teams face the question, “do we go for Halladay now, knowing it will cause detriment to us down the road?” The Yankees are not a small market team and will be able to remain competitive down the road regardless of whether or not they go for Halladay.
Ray, from today’s Toronto Sun:
“The Boston Red Sox say they have “all the pieces” to make the deal for Halladay, but doubt the Blue Jays would move Halladay within the division. Red Sox will move Clay Buchholz and Lars Anderson. ”
http://www.torontosun.com/spor.....6-sun.html
Hughes will win more games for the Yankees as a reliever (literally getting the Ws) than Snell would as a starter.
St Louis hates his brother in the outfield.They believe because his father(Dave)is the pitching coach La Russa keeps him on the team as a favor.
Some of my family lives in St Louis,hence are Cards fans.
This is a common thought among Cardinal fans.
Dave, if you plan on taking your family and sitting down the whole time, you are going to be blocked. If you are going with friends and don’t mind standing. Park yourself behind the home plate seats and enjoy the game.
Tom,
Thank you for that link. Very interesting.
Not trading in the division is a fallacy. Jim Duquette said that Riccairdi is not dumb and will take the best offer presented to him. Whether in the Division or not. Jays aren’t winning now and are rebuilding. They would want to dent the RS or Yanks future and sacrifice now. It’s actually better for them.
RS are dumb if they think they are going to wait for the price to go down. It won’t. I could see them swooping in with a deal though at the last minute.
i think the jays are also looking for a catcher & boston is weak in that area.
if the jays wanted hughes,ajax,montero i would not do it.
joba,romine & 2 others yes.
no hughes,montero or ajax.
DB – Thanks a lot for responding. Fortunately I’m going with friends. So even in the 3rd row it’s still pretty bad huh? What a shame. This is my first time going to the new stadium. I heard the Mohegan Sun sports bar is a good plan B as well. I’m sure we’ll figure it out.
It seems interesting to me that the Sox would rather hold on to Smoltz and Penny (Smoltz especially) and trade Buchholz–especially given that Smoltz probably will not be pitching a whole lot longer.
There must be something about Buchholz they really don’t like.
“It seems interesting to me that the Sox would rather hold on to Smoltz and Penny (Smoltz especially) and trade Buchholz–especially given that Smoltz probably will not be pitching a whole lot longer.”
Can’t center a package for Halladay around Penny or Smoltz.
July 14th, 2009 at 11:03 am
“i think the jays are also looking for a catcher & boston is weak in that area.”
The Sox are definitely buyers and not sellers when it comes to the catcher position.
They can’t keep resigning Varitek to one year contracts in my opinion, and need to start looking for the catcher of the future.
Feinsand yet again – says that JP is not trading within his division unless he gets a huge package (Hughes/Joba/Jackson or Bucholz/Bard/Bowden)…..
“Can’t center a package for Halladay around Penny or Smoltz.”
True.
Boy the Yankees are always used as a bargaining chip,when player’s are in the SHOW ME THE MONEY,phase uhm….Halladay is the latest one, playing the game.
Rebecca,
Bucholtz has been pitching well and I don’t think the Sox are looking negatively at him.
It is just that it will take young talent like that to get Halladay. Just like you hear the names of Hughes and Joba to get Halladay. You aren’t hearing the names of Pettite and older pitchers because Toronto would want young talent.
Offer Joba-Jackson-Romine-Nunuez and one of Dellin/Vizciano for Halladay and Rios…take it or leave it.
IMO…the Sawx can’t compete with that offer, nor could most other teams.
I just scanned the previous thread, but I don’t get the ” what has Phil shown as a starter?” idea……This year? He’s made a lot of progress – but the point is not what he’s showing now, at age 23, but what he is capable of doing in the future. You can’t look at promising young pitchers and criticize them for not being at age 23 what they are going to be at 26/27/28, esp. with Phil who has had injuries to deal with and is now in the pen.
the rs already starting their classic we wan’t the price to come down first.
they are saying the yankees & angels are the favorites.
i see the yankees getting him if it becomes clear that boston might get him.
joba,romine & 2 others but not montero,ajax or both hughes & joba.
if the angels or the sox get him there goes our season.
Ray–
Yeah, it makes sense now. Forgive me, I’ve just woken up, my mind needs a few more minutes before it works properly!
Ray–
“Yeah, it makes sense now. Forgive me, I’ve just woken up, my mind needs a few more minutes before it works properly!
”
Rebecca, no forgiveness needed.
I hope your summer is going well. Are you taking classes this summer or you do have the summer off?
Dave, not terrible. But, you are going to be blocked from anything from deep center to the left field power alley against the wall. IMO, Keep mobile and enjoy the game from the concourse. You’ll have a blast.
Wait, are we having a live chat that’s NOT about golf or hockey???
Interesting.
DB, you hit the nail on the head.As a Gen Mgr,why would he trade in his division to better a rival,and be able to keep his job? Has it happened in the last 20-30 yrs? If Toronto does this,they have their eyes on certain prospects,believe!
Their fan base will not be happy,and it could affect revenues.
I Hope Toronto is so inclined to trade with the Yankees.
the yankees need to get ace back in the pen wich i believe they are after the break.
mitre will get the start.
joba needs to go on a serious conditioning program to strengthen his legs & learn to use his legs as the foundation.
he has to be in tip top shape both mentally & physically.
he is all arms.no driving off his legs.
I have to laugh at all the reports that have the Yanks deep in it right now. All the beat writers eating a little crow are they?
Ray: I took classes in June, so I’m done with class now but I’ve got two papers to write/finish (ycch) and some other work to do before I’m all done.
Which probably explains why I’m procrastinating like hell.
bru, Joba knows all about his legs. Watched him diagram it on Kids on Deck. He just has no stamina. Maybe Pettitte can show him the fabled Clemens work out. For a 23 year old he won’t need roids to stay on top.
“Maybe Pettitte can show him the fabled Clemens work out.”
Maybe he can try the icy-hot on b*lls approach.
The Jays need a catcher and are looknig for a SS… so including Romine and Nunez/Pena would probably be part of it. Then it comes down to how good the arms involved are going to be. If it’s just Halladay then I think Joba goes with maybe Betances.
LOL, I’m all for it Hokie!
Just got a few emails from friends that are Cards fans,asking if the Espn or Mlbtraferumors article is true.Well it’s out there now!
joba,romine,pena,betances.
catcher,ss,2 pitchers.
we still have hughes,ajax,montero,nunez.
we also lose a sp & would have a 4 man rotation.
“Just got a few emails from friends that are Cards fans,asking if the Espn or Mlbtraferumors article is true.Well it’s out there now!”
What’s the rumor?
Anything on MLBTR is usually sourced. It’s one of the more trustworthy sites out there.
Being that its the All-Star break, I thought it’s time to at least gloat a little. Still a long way to go, but I’m in First Place in the Lohud Fantasy Baseball League!
Yippie! That and 2.25 wil get me on the subway. But, I must admit, it’s fun!
Love the scout quoted in the Toronto Sun who said the Yankees are a third place team. Hmm, did he think that when they were in Minnesota? I guess not – they have 3 bad games and now they are a 3rd place team…..
IMO, Andy is done and he’s not coming back – he is who he is. The Yankees can not afford to wait and see if Joba turns it around and I don’t get why so many people are content with winging it (the same people who were embarrassed and angered by not making the playoffs last years). Hoping for Wang to pull a Willis Reed is unrealistic – if he comes back, it’s not for awhile and even then I would have minimal expectations. The Yankees can’t wait that long.
DB – congratulations. I moved up to 8th place!
betsy, I guess Yanks are still considered behind the Rays in that scouts eyes. Can’t blame him really, Rays run dif is better and they went to the WS last year.
Thanks Fran, especially allowing me to in the league in the first place. Much appreciated!
Hoklehill,
~The Cards were hoping that because Halladay and Carpenter are friends,and Toronto would not trade in their division.That they are the fvored team.
~Their banking on a non division trade.They fear a bidding war for two reasons.
~The Yankees win,and Pujols contract is nearing its end and they have to preserve money to negotiate with him.
I got lucky drafting Haren and Verlander. I had a good feeling with them but they have been lights out. Matt Cain too. Of course Pujols, Howard, an Mauer don’t hurt!
“The Yankees win,and Pujols contract is nearing its end and they have to preserve money to negotiate with him.”
Pujols still locked in for another 2.5 years.
My fantasy teams are all in 2nd to last place. Which is awesome b/c I usually end up in last!
Seems like Halladay is friends with a lot of guys, Carpenter, AJ, etc…so I imagine potential to win and earn big $ will be the 2 higher motivational factors. Of course it does help that the Cards are in the NL and it would be easier to pitch there than in the AL East
Surprised Halladay doesnt want to pitch in NL He would lower his ERA greatly. looking at some of the NL all stars
Orlando Hudson never hit higher than 276 in the AL and now hes hitting 283 in NL
Miggie Tejada batted 283 and 296 in last two years in AL and now in NL is hitting 329. Ibanez is the best though, last year playing in all 162 games for Seattle he hit under 300 and only hit over 300 once in the AL he also hit 23 homers in 163 games last year. At the break now in the NL he has hit 309 and already has 22 homers. Dan Haren had an ERA of 309 in AL in the NL this year he is at 201. My point is that if I were a player I`d rather play in the NL, while the strong teams in NL are as good as some AL teams, the middle and bottom of the NL are awful. Many guys in the NL could not work in the AL right now.
Hoping for Wang to pull a Willis Reed is unrealistic – if he comes back, it’s not for awhile and even then I would have minimal expectations. The Yankees can’t wait that long.
==============
Yeah, I wonder if the Yanks will bury him for a while. It seems like they can’t afford to but I wouldn’t be surprised if we didn’t see Wang until September and somebody else was traded for or called up.
All this talk about Halladay, I could see the Yanks getting a Washburn or Bannister or somebody on that level.
With my fantasy team it seems like every time I add a player they go into a slump and when I drop them they catch fire.
“The Yankees win,and Pujols contract is nearing its end and they have to preserve money to negotiate with him.”
Pujols is signed through the 2011 season and strikes me as someone who isn’t leaving St. Louis unless they insult him with a ridiculous offer.
Somebody mentioned that Halladay would be receptive toward the Phillies seeing as he lives in nearby Dunedin and would have 10 weeks of spring training at home.
Yeah sure …. like a 15 minute ride to Tampa is a dealbreaker.
Unless the Yanks can keep Hughes, Joba, Montero and Jackson I don’t trade for Halladay.
So in essence, what I’m saying is, “I wouldn’t trade for Halladay”
“DB, you hit the nail on the head.As a Gen Mgr,why would he trade in his division to better a rival,and be able to keep his job? Has it happened in the last 20-30 yrs? If Toronto does this,they have their eyes on certain prospects,believe!
Their fan base will not be happy,and it could affect revenues.
I Hope Toronto is so inclined to trade with the Yankees.”
Roger Clemens?
Cashman agrees to take on Rios’s contract, deal is done….Wells makes this hard to do ……Lot’s of money comes off the books after this season…Besides, Yanks will be needing an outfielder next season…..Aside from Chone Figgins, it gets thin…Bay & Holiday are not options…….
I would be into getting Brian Bannister, but KC has not indicated that he is available. But I would like him as a back-end starter, especially after his strong showing in Fenway last weekend.
Hokehill
I forgot to mention Cards fan fears,their owners won’t act fast enough to extend Pujol’s contract,and he is enticed on the open market with huge offers.Albert’s contract is cheap for what he means in terms of production to any team,they signed him on the cheap in today’s market.
DB -
The “we” is a pet peeve of mine, but mostly I’ve made my peace with the way people here use it. I understand it comes from passion.
I think I’m in a really bad mood today, for one, and it just seems like so many people are really down on this team, when it truly doesn’t seem all that bleak to me. I am not of the mind that all will right itself; I realize there are things that need to be tweaked. Every year there are. Even in the so-called “dynasty” years, did they not go out and get reinforcements and plug holes along the way? If one could foresee everything that was going to unfold during the course of the season, one would be a truly gifted GM. All I ask, all anyone can ask, is that the GM of this team do what he can do. And realize that we are not privy to all the information, and that sometimes even though you want to do a particular thing, it takes two to tango, you know?
Anyway, DB, please don’t let me inhibit how you post. I guess about once very 4 or so months, I get my fill of “we” and let it rip. Sorry.
2nd place almost all year in fantasy
inge
howard
utley
tulowitski
huff
bay
hunter
dye
hawpe
justin upton
luke scott
juan rivera
josh willingham
felipe lopez
asdrubal cabrera
chris ianetta
sabathia
lincecum
wakefield
gavin floyd
volquez
hoffmam
rodney
downs
aardsma
gregg
nunez
first year doing it & didn’t understand it as much as i do now.
i let the draft clock run out & the computer picked 2 straight picks for me.
it picked roberts & ortiz when i would of taken a good third baseman.
i was sizing up longoria when the computer picked for me.
next time i will concentrate on closers & sp a little more.
closers usually get you 6 points per inning if they don’t blow a save not including walks or strikeouts in my league.
Roger Clemens AND David Cone.
Both from the Jays
Clemens at the beginning of ST.
Cone at the trading deadline.
Writers need a better argument than teams don’t trade in their Division.
I know Rios makes a lot of money, but I don’t think he’s the albatross contract a lot of you think he is.
If he was available in a trade as a strict salary dump for non-prospects he’d have been traded already.
His money isn’t obscene. He’s having an off year, but still has power and is great defensively.
I think the Mets and Giants would have both taken him off Toronto’s hands by now if it were a strict salary dump acquisition.
if nobody else is in a position to take on Wells contract, why would the Yankees feel obligated to do so? answer = they wont. No GM in their right mind would take on a contract like that if no one they’re competing with wouldn’t consider it. Rios is a stretch but not nearly as much as Wells.
If Toronto were willing to trade Halladay within the division, and if they were willing to accept either Joba/Hughes, plus AJax and Montero, then that’s a deal I’d make immediately. The goal is to win the World Series – not accumulate young guys with potential. And let’s face it, the immediate window of opportunity is closing secondary to age. Jeter, Posada, and Rivera are all >35. A-Rod is 33. AJB is 32. I like the young kids. But no one can predict 1) if they’ll be servicable big leaguers 2) what the overall make up in the future, post Rivera/Jeter world will be. It was wrong not to trade for Santana. It would be wrong not to trade for Halladay. A top 3 of Halladay, CC, AJB makes the Yankees the most difficult team to beat in a postseason series.
I don’t think Rios would be a problem.
The problem is the cost for Halladay, who, on his own, is quite a price to pay for.
Rios, on his own, I think would be quite obtainable. You’d probably have to part with Jackson–which would hurt–but at the same time you could probably keep Hughes and Joba.
Hokie,
I don’t think the Yankees would consider taking on the whole Wells contract, but if Toronto paid a portion of it like Texas did with Arod it’s a different story.
The whole allure of Wells in the deal is the fact that it means you are not forced to give up the talent you’d normally have to give because you are taking on their onerous financial obligation.
Personally, I like Wells but that contract is ugly. The Yankees would have to win a world series with him or the fans would give him Hell since he’s not the player he was when the contract was signed.
That’s a solid team Bru. I picked up Aardsma too (and Rodney) when I realized my only closer was KRod. Yovani Gallardi was a nice draft for me also.
Talk to Cards fans they are obsessed with losing Pujols.Every conversation is they should extend him now.Pujols means the difference of the playoffs or not,TO THEM.I ask what about Carpenter,you need pitching too.They want Halladay THAT’S WHY I GET THE EMAIL,they’re fishing and trying to feel out if the Yankees are in the equation.
I would like Rios on his own as a pickup by the Yankees, although I know everyone is talking about a Roy/Rios duo. He would improve the OF defense drastically and if you slot him in at the bottom of the lineup his offensive game is a nice plus–relatively patient, decent pop and a lot of speed. I think he would definitely flourish out of Toronto, their expectations for him to hit in the middle of the lineup and become a consistent 30 HR guy don’t seem to have worked for him and he seems burnt out on the whole scene.
I must say that I tuned in to hear Mark Feinsand on the Fan and although Mark was his usual informative self, both Jones and the other guy sounded like rookies. A most difficult listen.
She should throw away the attempted light banter b/c that’s not what she’s good at… W
hen she gets serious about her work like on the Yank post game, she is VERY good.
There is no way Wells gets traded. His contract is just so awful no team could be dumb enough to take him.
Don’t forget the possbility of the Yanks/Jays splitting the contract of Wells. It frees up money for the Jays while also getting prospects. Wells contract is awfull from 11 to 14 where he makes over 20mil per year. If the Yanks split the difference and the Jays pay is remainder 8.5 in signing bonus, it could work.
if halladay pressures toronto to trade him to the yankees because of burnett the jays are in a tough spot.
the yankees,sox,angels,phillies,dodgers are the top 5 teams that he might wan’t to go to.
if the yankees package is much better i don’t see how the jays don’t take it.
if they are close maybe they take a small hit to keep him out of the division.
i would not trade montero but if he is in it with joba i don’t see how they walk away.
we need a solid # 3 pitcher.
any number of things can happen we just don’t know how this will play out but i just don’t see the jays getting what all these so called experts think they will get.
toronto is in a tough spot.
they have to bring back something in return but they are not winning the division or the wc & halladay walks soon.
right now halladay is worth more than he will ever be going forward.
he pitches great in the asg then toronto needs to trade him.
to much of a risk for him or the jays not to.
It’s not that the Red Sox are down on Buchholz, its that trading for Roy Halladay makes them the odds on favorite to go back to back in 09/’10. Can you imagine having to deal with Beckett/Halladay 4 maybe 5 times in a 7 game series? How many chances in the history of most franchises (especially the red sox) do you get to do something that special? Not very often.
As mentioned last week, whoever agrees to take on either of those contracts have the inside track to Halliday, and you will not be required to give up all those top shelf prospects in return…..
eric why don’t you replace Beckett with CC Sabathia and imagine what it does for the Yankees’ chances if they acquire Halladay?
i would, except becketts performance in the playoffs has far surpassed sabathia’s. i hope it changes this year with the yankees. That said- i’d love to have halladay, and having halladay gives the yankees a leg up on the rest of the AL. If it means taking on Rios or Wells, i think you do it if the package is in place.
Betsy,
Agree with what you said up there about the pitching.
I don’t think Andy is going to find the fountain of youth. He is what he is right now and once in awhile he will spin a 7 inning gem and give us flashes of his old self but for most part he’s going to have issues this season.
Without Wang and with Andy and Joba being ineffective starters right now, the team has to find a starting pitcher somewhere to pick up innings.
If we go into the 2nd half with 2 starting pitchers and Andy, Joba and Mitre in the back end get ready for some ugly losing streaks.
The pen will get overused and become ineffective again.
If it’s Halladay, great. If it’s not him, I hope Cash has something else up his sleeve to get a reliable starter into the mix.
I would love for him to get Brian Bannister from KC. I’d also check in with the Reds on Harang or Arroyo and see what the price is.
Those are the kinds of back end arms we need right now. I know everyone hates Arroyo because Francesa loves him, but the guy averages 6.2 innings a start and pitches in a hitter friendly park.
If Joba and Andy could get 6.2 innings a start we wouldn’t be looking for any help.
Shocked Halladay would not want to go to the NL. Much weaker league. Top NL teams are good, but the middle to bottom of the NL is so weak.
Ibanez last year in Seattle he hit under 300 and hit 23 homers in 162 games right now half way through in the NL he already has 22 homers and is hitting 320? and he was on DL for a while. Tejada hadnt hit 300 in his last two years in AL and now is hitting 329. Orlando Hudson never hit higher than 276 in the AL and now hes hitting 283 and made the All star team.
NL is the place to be
I still think Andy’s back is a factor. He just has too much at stake to go on the DL.
For those who enjoy a little gossip with their baseball talk… People magazine was stalking A-Rod and Kate Hudson over the weekend
http://www.people.com/people/a.....21,00.html
bronx fan, mlbtrraderumors reported that he wouldn’t have a problem going to the AL.
G Love, I don’t believe the Jays would be willing to trade Wells and pay a portion of his contract; although no team would take him without money (this is why he’s untradable). if they try to force Wells with Halladay they are going to get squat in return and they will still be paying money to Wells when their motivation to begin with is to free up money. If they want money AND prospects for Halladay they can not expect to send Wells with him.
I’m a little suprised at the ARod and Kate Hudson thing. I watched How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days this weekend with my wife and I must say, she is beautiful. But, not ARod standards. Nothing fake on her or pretentious. Completely different to what you would think ARod would like.
I’ve always been a fan of Adam Wainwright. What are the Cards looking for these days?
Arroyo also has a 5.38 ERA pitching in the NL against weaker competition and a pitcher swinging the bat every nine outs.
A big NO THANKS on Arroyo.
I’m down with Bannister but not so much on Washburn, Arroyo, or Harang.
G.Love the most unlikable thing about Arroyo is paying him $10 million in 2010 to basically be the 4th or 5th starter. Ditto for Harang because he’s due for $12.5 million in 2010.
Brian Bannister should be priority #1 if they’re not going full-bore after Halladay. He might still be arb eligible which might raise his price because it wouldn’t cost KC much to keep him. But perhaps the Yankees can swing a deal picking up Bannister and one of KC’s bullpen vets (Mahay? Cruz?) to fill two needs with one deal.
Hokiehill, if you think about it, having a team pay for half of Wells contract to unload him while getting great prospects in return would be a sound financial move. They are not getting the return on Wells they expected. But, if you can get some MLB prospects and a MLB ready guy who can give you Wells production now (Melky) for half the price..why not?
Is there a LoHud fantasy baseball league I am not aware of?
Sultus: The Cards are in 1st place in the NL Central. They’re buyers, not sellers.
“Is there a LoHud fantasy baseball league I am not aware of?”
Somewhere, Erica wants to draft Johnny Damon.
First, can we have a ban on promoting Fantasy League teams? No one on earth cares about your team but you. Thanx
Second, in all the talk about Wells, Rios and Halladay remember to keep one thing in mind. The only reason Toronto is looking to deal Halladay is financial. He’s a great pitcher, the most popular player in the organization and affordably signed for one more season.
Toronto’s owner died last year and there are plenty of indications that the company is in major financial trouble. I wouldn’t be surprised if J.P. Ricciardi has marching orders to get out from under as many long term contracts as possible regardless of the return.
that’s why there’s every possibility they will try and tie Halladay to either Rios or Wells. Rios is younger and cheaper and would bring talent back. Wells has arguably the worst contract (for the team) in baseball and would result in Halladay bringing much less in return.
DB – 1st Place LHUD FBL
July 14th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
bronx fan, mlbtrraderumors reported that he wouldn’t have a problem going to the AL.
Yes, I’m a moron….meant to type NL. Sorry.
Here I’ll give you guys the link, again.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....onday.html
•Newsday’s Ken Davidoff says Halladay wouldn’t mind pitching in the National League.
Erica
Stalker pics definitely describes it best
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
July 14th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Sultus: The Cards are in 1st place in the NL Central. They’re buyers, not sellers.
==================
Ok, then I guess that makes Haren available???
Spending so much time talking about everyone’s opinion on potential trades makes the ENTIRE BLOG a fantasy league!
Sultus: Arizona has not indicated as such. He’s cost controlled for a few more years, isn’t he?
I see no way Wells or Rios are invovled in a Halladay deal. Halladay is Ricciardi’s sole opportunity to enhance the future of the Jays onfield product. Using him as part of a salary dump sets the organization back AND destroys whatever goodwill exist with the present fan base.
He can sell “I got these high end guys for Halladay”. He cannot sell “I got salary relief and little else for Halladay and Wells/Rios”
Here is one idea to ponder:
Blue Jays get: Joba, Jackson, Romine, Swisher, Pena and David Phelps (currently in Charleston).
Yankees get: Halladay and Rios.
Benefit for the Jays: They get 81 million dollars in salary relief, and fewer years of money being tied up by moving Doc and Rios. Swisher can play RF and when you are rebuilding, his contract doesn’t kill you.
They get another young OF (Jackson) they can keep or spin off in another deal.
They get Doc’s replacement in the rotation in Joba.
They get their 2010 SS in Pena.
They get a C they can groom for the future in Romine.
They get another college arm (which the Jays like) as the for taking on Swisher’s deal.
Benefit to the Yankees: They get the best pitcher in the AL.
They get a 5 tool RF who isn’t old, great defensively, and with Kevin Long’s help, can regain his consistent form of a couple of years ago. They also become more athletic in the OF.
A Melky-Gardner-Rios OF is the best defensive OF the Yankees have had in years. Also adds more speed to the team.
They have enough catching depth to absorb losing Romine and still keep Montero.
They have Nunez, who has more upside as a SS than Pena from a propect standpoint.
The organization is awash with RH arms. They can afford to lose Phelps.
Rios replaces Swisher, which is an upgrade.
They lose Jackson and Joba but, gain better players in return.
The deal has to hurt some from the Yankees side or there is no way Toronto will make a deal with a division rival.
Not saying Toronto would do it. However, take this package and see if they can top it. I bet when all is said and done they can’t.
JP can say he got more for Doc and Rios than Cleveland got for CC and Minnesota got for Santana. The Yankees upgrade two areas and can absorb the propsects loss and the money in the deal. They still keep Hughes and Montero in the end.
That’s a win win deal for both sides.
well 86w183, it’s the official LoHud RBlog Readers League and was promoted by none other than Pete himself on this very blog in March. Therefore, I mentioned it and it’s pertinent to at least some of the readers here.
http://games.espn.go.com/flb/t.....ueId=66277
But, I’ll take it off my monicker. Don’t want to be jinxing myself anyway.
Steve B
July 14th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
“Is there a LoHud fantasy baseball league I am not aware of?”
Somewhere, Erica wants to draft Johnny Damon.
***
Is drafting what the kids are calling it these days???
Just kidding.. I couldn’t resist that one. MPB Johnny Damon is a happily married guy and the truth is, if I was ever within 5 feet of him I would probably giggle, stutter and then run away.
“Ok, then I guess that makes Haren available???”
Most of the team is, but Haren most certainly is not.
I love it SJ, don’t know if Ricciardi would though.
Gut feeling is that this deal doesn’t get done without Montero.
“Hokiehill, if you think about it, having a team pay for half of Wells contract to unload him while getting great prospects in return would be a sound financial move. They are not getting the return on Wells they expected. But, if you can get some MLB prospects and a MLB ready guy who can give you Wells production now (Melky) for half the price..why not?”
That looks great from the Jays perspective, but why would any team do that? If the Yankees take Wells and 1/2 his contract along with Halladay and give up Melky, I wouldn’t add much else in the way of prospects to that deal…and I certainly wouldn’t give up Joba or Hughes in that scenario
Steve B
July 14th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
“Ok, then I guess that makes Haren available???”
Most of the team is, but Haren most certainly is not.
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Yeah, it was more of a comment on how standings don’t necessarily dictate the availability of a player.
But I agree, 1st place Cards wouldn’t trade a guy who’s won 10 games in Wainwright.
SJ44
July 14th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Here is one idea to ponder:
Blue Jays get: Joba, Jackson, Romine, Swisher, Pena and David Phelps (currently in Charleston).
***
Should we add a few bat boys too? I don’t think you have enough players listed for the Yankees to give up. Lets throw in Cody Ransom too. If that doesn’t seal the deal there is always the monument park bricks
“Blue Jays get: Joba, Jackson, Romine, Swisher, Pena and David Phelps (currently in Charleston).
Yankees get: Halladay and Rios.”
Yeah, but can Rios come in and pitch in a blowout game when everyone else in the ‘pen has been used?
That deal could work, I guess, but I don’t know…I don’t get a good feeling doing that. I can’t come up with a good explanation for you, but it does rub me the wrong way. I know you have to give to get and two players would cost more than one…but I dunno. That’s giving up an awful lot.
DB- If you can gloat about first I guess I can also gloat about being in 4th which for me is a huge deal especially after half the team I drafted is long gone from my team due to season ending injuries, many missed a lot because of surgery (Arod), suspension (Manny) or complete ineffectiveness.
I am looking for a huge second half. LOL
ESPN insider has a rumor that Jobas going to the pen: “Rumors: Joba Chamberlain to pen … again”. Anyone see any credibility in this one? I don’t have insider but if someone does please check that out and get back to us.
Rebecca, I completely understand where you’re coming from. I just have a gut feeling that giving up Joba will come back to bite us in the butt in the very near future.
SJ,
I make that deal right now. No questions asked.
86w183
people tend to go with the flow of the blogg naturally along with abiding by pa rules & wishes.
we don’t need you or anybody else to police the blogg.
don’t read or comment & it will go away naturally.
it is a baseball subject on a very slow baseball week.
people have talked about many non baseball things for almost hours.
pa said no politics so there is none.
if he said no fantasy then i would not talk about it but just because you do not like it does not make it off limits.
banning a baseball subject seems a little stupid imo.
SJ, That’s a deal they can work around…Might be the foundation to a deal……I agree with the basics of the deal…….
“ESPN insider has a rumor that Jobas going to the pen: “Rumors: Joba Chamberlain to pen … again”. Anyone see any credibility in this one? I don’t have insider but if someone does please check that out and get back to us.”
The text:
“Well, if Joe Girardi listens hard enough to the clamor in New York, that’s where he’ll send his struggling 5th starter.
Just listen to former Yank Goose Gossage: “This guy was their savior two years ago when they didn’t have a set-up guy. They wouldn’t have made the playoffs without Joba. He’d be the perfect [set-up] guy. If you could impact three or four ballgames a week instead of one…I think you’re wasting a tremendous talent.”
Yesterday we mentioned that Girardi could consider Sergio Mitre as a fifth starter.”
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors
So basically, nothing we don’t already know.
If you are going to trade for talented players, you have to give up something in return.
One guy in the deal could be a future HOF pitcher. The other guy in the deal is a five tool OF.
You aren’t getting them for nothing.
Major market teams build their farm systems for two reasons:
1. To have the depth to pull off big deals.
2. To have players that be marquee players for your team.
Derek Jeter is the Yankee SS for the next couple of years, at minimum. That’s why Ramiro Pena is learning to be a utility player.
Nunez in 2-3 years could be a homegrown guy to take over that spot because his bat is bigger than Pena’s.
Joba or Hughes for Halladay is something you have to do or the Jays aren’t going to bite. For the purposes of the proposal I put Joba in there. It also works if Hughes was involved.
The Yankees have enough catching depth to lose Romine. To get Rios, you have to add talent to the deal.
Like I said, put the proposal to the side and see what the final trade for Halladay ends up being. I bet its lighter than this proposal because very few teams have the depth in their system and the money to make this deal.
Especially those teams that aren’t on Doc’s no trade list.
SJ44 -
If I was for a Halladay deal, that’s the one I’d like most of all the deals proposed here.
They can’t move Joba to the pen. They have no starters stretched out or ready in the organization to replace him unless you think they are calling up Igawa to pitch in the 4 hole behind Andy.
Joba is a starter until he gets traded or we trade for his replacement in the rotation.
Hughes and Ace are too valuable in the pen and can’t give innings for at least another month and a half til they are stretched out.
Oh no Goose Gossage says Joba should be in the pen!
Great pitcher, not the smartest guy.
SJ44,
I wouldn’t give up all of that for Halladay and Rios. My biases aside, that’s such a large deal I don’t see something like that happening within the next two weeks. Too many moving parts.
SJ: I think your proposed deal is a good one from the Jays side, I’m just…I guess I’m both a bit of a prospect hugger and I’m wary of giving Joba up.
SJ-
I was just kidding because it seems like the Yankees are giving up a lot of players. But it is probably the most logical and well thought out trade proposal I have seen. I would make it if I was a GM
Actually the deal the SJ44 proposes doesn’t give up much at all, besides potential, and that includes Joba.
Thanks Rebecca, just making sure I hadn’t missed anything!
GLove and Pat M,
IMO, that’s the framework of a deal the Yankees have to craft in order to have a shot at getting it done.
They wouldn’t be taking on 37 year old players for the talent they would be giving up.
They would still be holding onto Hughes and Montero.
They would upgrading the OF and spend less than they would spend in the off-season for Bay or Holliday. Two players who may not be as good as Alex Rios if you get Rios back to being the player he was two years ago.
Its certainly a better deal than anything the Phillies or Red Sox could put on the table. If nothing else, it gives JP something to think about.
For those who would be in a panic about giving up Austin Jackson in this deal, one name to keep in mind……Kelvin DeLeon.
18 years old, in the GCL, and is the most talented OF the Yankees have had in their farm system in forever.
A year from now, everybody in baseball will be talking about this kid like they are talking about Montero today.
That would make losing Jackson in a deal like this less hurtful in the long run.
Doreen:
You’re working me over, stop it
I’d just hate to see Jackson and Joba blossom and we all talk about what could have been…
sj i think that is a perfect deal.
we can take that hit.
we keep hughes,montero,nunez stays for ss & the jays get a nice deal while getting their catcher,ss,of along with 2 pitchers.
with the new stadium breaks & damon,matsui,nady,molina,pettitte off the books after this year for a total of about 40 million it might work without having to add anything or much next year.
The Yankees also have Kevin Russo playing utility and doing it well in AAA. Pena is nice because we saw him, but Russo at this point is a bit more versatile and a bit better with the bat. I don’t think he has the glove upside of Pena.
SJ – Why would Toronto want Phelps?
“They would upgrading the OF and spend less than they would spend in the off-season for Bay or Holliday. Two players who may not be as good as Alex Rios if you get Rios back to being the player he was two years ago.”
Big if.
However, you’re right about DeLeon. The funny thing is he’s less than a year younger than Montero, but the RAB guys are saying that he’s really impressed.
The one team I think that’s going to end up a serious Halladay contender may very well be the Rangers. There’s no question the have both the prospects to get it done, and the need.
Of course, it’s ultimately Halladay’s decision, but it would not shock me if that’s where he ended up.
I don’t really follow the minor leaguers as much as other people on here do…
But based on the hype/facts/states/whatever I read from you folks, I think ultimately Montero would be more valuable than Jackson. I am also in favor of keeping Hughes over Joba. So I like the trade the way it stands
I love all the reporters basically making stuff up about Halladay/trade, If they are right they can grouse if they are wrong they are not accountable – at all.
This goes double for the Joba rumor
DB & Bru —
Ignore me. I’m just being a cranky old fart today.
SJ — I think you need a better pitcher/prospect than Phelps in that mix.
You also have Slade Heathcott – top draft choice from this year. Athletic like Jackson and is not too far behind in terms of development.
SJ – Would the Yankees maintain sufficient roster and financial flexibility by making that move. There pitching staff would earn more than 95% of the teams in MLB.
“That’s why Ramiro Pena is learning to be a utility player.”
Well, that and the fact his bat doesn’t allow for him to be an everyday player.
Rebecca, can the Rangers afford to take on the contract? I have heard that Hicks is having financial problems and is considering selling.
SJ didn’t even factor in potentially signing Chapman (whose new agents are located in White Plains about 20 mins from the stadium, ahem), if he’s 21, quasi-replaces Joba w/o giving anything up.
We can afford to trade Joba or Hughes for Halladay.
Boston is going to trade Buchholtz. He’s 25 (or almost 25) which is getting up there for a top prospect and he has a few ‘tude issues. He’s openly spoken about how the organization is handling him the wrong way which is a major no-no in Beantown.
He’s being showcased for a trade on Friday. You have to blind not to see that.
It’s just a matter of who he’s being showcased for.
My guess is it’s a hitter. Maybe one of the Texas catchers or Victor Martinez.
But it could be for Halladay and if they get him….well…
For those who would be in a panic about giving up Austin Jackson in this deal, one name to keep in mind……Kelvin DeLeon.
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Kelvin DeLeon is a high-end talent, but he is not projected for CF. He will play a corner spot.
The other hot-shot CF of the future, besides AJax – is Eduardo Sosa. His ETA is 2013.
Fran (the original) and OPPC member
July 14th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Rebecca, can the Rangers afford to take on the contract? I have heard that Hicks is having financial problems and is considering selling.
***
This is correct. Nolan Ryan was trying to assemble financing to purchase the team from him
There really aren’t that many moving parts to the deal. That’s the beauty of it.
The minor league guys have all been scouted heavily by the Jays. They don’t need to send guys out to see them. They have had reports on Romine, Jackson and Pena for years.
Phelps was just drafted last year so they are aware of him.
They already know the major league talent on the Yankees roster.
The only real moving part is Doc agreeing to waive his NTC, which he would do in a heartbeat.
Rios? Ken Singleton’s son played with Rios in the minors. They are still very close. Singy can tell the Yankees everything they need to know about Rios.
Put Rios in KLong’s hands and he is the best RF in the AL next year and he’s only 28 years old.
Like I said, its just something to ponder on a non-gameday to kill time. Certainly not set in stone.
Here is one idea to ponder:
Blue Jays get: Joba, Jackson, Romine, Swisher, Pena and David Phelps (currently in Charleston).
Yankees get: Halladay and Rios.
=================================
I guess I could live with that deal. But I’m a prospect hugger, so I might cry a little.
5 Iron:
Heathcott is 4-5 years from contributing at the MLB level. That’s a bit beyond “not too far behind” from where I sit.
Rebecca -
Don’t get me wrong. I had have separation anxiety if Joba (or Hughes) is traded. I would love for Jackson to make it as a Yankee.
I also don’t want a Halladay trade. Just saying IF one is made (because, after all it’s got nothing to do with what I want
), it seems to me the Yankees have replacements for all the pieces that SJ mentioned. Also, you have to give to get. You have to give Toronto players that will play for them both now and in the immediate future, or who are attractive enough that, as SJ says, can be flipped for someone else.
Erica, I hadn’t heard that about Nolan Ryan. I know he works for the team, but didn’t know he was trying to purchase the Rangers.
** I would have separation anxiety, that is.
Bod – Sosa is a name to follow. Had a great year last year but is struggling a bit in the early going this year. He also is a 5 tool type guy. Both Deleon and Sosa are still years off.
How would you rank Rios compared to Holliday and Bay – who would be the free agent comps this offseason?
SJ44,
You’re reversing course again.
By the way, DeLeon is 3-4 years away.
halladay would make us a tough team to beat.
if joba can’t hold his own at the very minimum we have to put him in the pen or trade him.
the only reason he is still starting is because he has not been an absolute disaster.
if you think cash & girardi keep him in the rotation when he is getting bombed think again.
regardless of our lack of starters if joba is getting hammered we find another pitcher.
going to be very interesting the next few weeks.
if joba struggles in his next start 3 innings/4 or 5 runs cash & girardi are in a tough spot.
Bod,
I have a feeling the Yankees wouldn’t have any problems playing Melky/Gardner in CF next year if they had Alex Rios in RF.
Austin has been playing a lot of corner OF in AAA, as well as CF. Melky and/or Brett can play CF as well as Austin can.
As far as a pure prospect though, DeLeon has more upside than Austin, IMO. He’s going to be in AA at 20 years old if he keeps up his current pace.
That kid is really, really going to be fun to watch.
Again, a deal has to hurt some from the Yankee side or its not getting done.
It hurts less though when you are getting talent in return to make the parent club better, and have the depth in the system to absorb the player losses.
Can’t see Halladay going to a team that’s never one so he can pitch in 98 degree heat every day. If he agrees to a trade I’m fairly certain he’ll go to team that’s been in the post season one or both of the last two years and has the financial resources to make him happy AND surround him with talent. Yanks, Sawx, Angels, Dodgers, Cardinals and Phillies fit that category… Cubs you can’t say because of ownership issues.
You know sometimes I want to punch Goose Gossage, CAUSE HE CAN’T STHU !
Fran (the original) and OPPC member
July 14th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Erica, I hadn’t heard that about Nolan Ryan. I know he works for the team, but didn’t know he was trying to purchase the Rangers.
***
I believe his current title with the team is President. He seems to have a big role in day to day operations. I have no idea if his trying to assemble financing is something he will be successful in, but he is definitely interested in buying the team.
I am pretty sure I heard the YES announcers talking about it during one of the Minnesota games this week. (I usually listen hard to the announcers because I can’t see the TV when I am on the computer- which I usually am during games because I am always commenting on this blog during games)
The problem with this trade is that Rios is not a sap on Toronto to the extent that he needs to be dumped. For his sake, a trade would do him good.
The thing that sticks out to me is this
Halladay is worth more than Joba, Jackson, and Romine
Rios is worth more than Swisher, Pena, and Phelps
Like I’ve said, Montero is the deal breaker.
Brandon… I’M AWESOME !
July 14th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
You know sometimes I want to punch Goose Gossage, CAUSE HE CAN’T STHU !
***
Sorry buddy, but Goose is more awesome than you. No punching Yankee legends allowed
Halladay is not coming to the Yanks, and I doubt he’s going to the Sox.
I don’t see DeLeon being in AA ball at 20. He turns 19 later this year. He has great potential, but I need to see more plate discipline beyond what he’s doing in GCL right now.
“Put Rios in KLong’s hands and he is the best RF in the AL next year and he’s only 28 years old.”
Not for nothing, but he couldn’t help Cano define the strike zone. Why do we think he can do it for Rios? Long isn’t that special.
“Not for nothing, but he couldn’t help Cano define the strike zone. Why do we think he can do it for Rios? Long isn’t that special.”
What doesn’t work with one player might work with another. You never really know…..
all you guys saying that you wouldn’t trade hughes, joba or ajax or montero for Halladay are nuts. We are built to win now and this deal would make perfect sense. Its amazing how much people do not know about baseball.
“Sorry buddy, but Goose is more awesome than you. No punching Yankee legends allowed”
No one is more awesome than me, yes even him and his big mouth tendencies.
Goose is a great Yankee, but for all that jawing about how Joba should be in the pen, he didn’t once come up with the guy that will take his place. So unless we make a trade it isn’t happening, unless Goose likes the idea of having CC, AJ, Pettitte, Mitre and Igawa as the rotation…
Goose can say anything he wants since he’s a bystander like the rest of us.
A team that’s never “won”… jeez
Not reversing course at all.
The object of the trade game is to get the guy you want.
In this case, the Yankees may have to top all other offers because its an intra-divisional trade.
Doc isn’t going to the Yankees for the Yankees version of CJ Henry, as Bobby Abreu did a few years ago.
Also, IMO, timing is important.
For the sake of this discussion, what if the Yankees pulled this deal off in the next 2 days, as opposed to July 31?
Those two extra weeks of getting both guys could help you win a couple of games. Perhaps the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs in such a tight race.
Like I said, I’m just tossin’ somethin’ together for discussion. Nothing is set in stone.
If I’m the Yankees though, I’m doing whatever I can to upgrade this team because, with upgrades this team can win the World Series this year.
JMO but, if they stand pat, I don’t think they have enough to win the WS and they have a possibility of falling short of making the playoffs.
JMHO.
If we put Igawa in the rotation then we can have the Kei Igawa Sunglasses Night promotion!!!!!!!!!!
Cash is King
July 14th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Goose can say anything he wants since he’s a bystander like the rest of us.
***
Seriously. For all we know Goose is commenting on this blog too…..
I can’t imagine the collective stroke this place would have if Kei Igawa had to make another start for the Yankees. The only thing that would top it, I think, is if Cashman’s big midseason starting pitching acquisition is Carl Pavano.
Five Iron From Fenway
July 14th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Bod – Sosa is a name to follow. Had a great year last year but is struggling a bit in the early going this year. He also is a 5 tool type guy. Both Deleon and Sosa are still years off.
How would you rank Rios compared to Holliday and Bay – who would be the free agent comps this offseason?
=======
I take Rios 10 x out of 10 before either Holliday or Bay. Always liked Rios, and I’m always suspicious of the “player has no heart” tag. Rios hands down.
Sosa is a guy I can’t wait to see in SI or eventually, Trenton; supposed to have unbelievable reading ability and speed, plus arm. Have you seen him live? Another guy with rawer ability than Sosa and KDL is Urena, he of the gunshot wound.
GB7 can update us on Almonte, converted from INF to OF. Hear he’s adapting beautifully defensively, but the bat is lagging behind.
If we put Igawa in the rotation then we can have the Kei Igawa Sunglasses Night promotion!!!!!!!!!!
====================
would halladay wan’t to go to texas?
isn’t that a hitters park?
the way i see it is the yankees have closed the gap,built up a nice farm system but are a little short & we simply can’t have halladay end up in boston.
that is more dangerous than losing our prospects by far.
if they added halladay & a bat no way we catch them.
do we have in house what it is going to take to win it all?
“I can’t imagine the collective stroke this place would have if Kei Igawa had to make another start for the Yankees. The only thing that would top it, I think, is if Cashman’s big midseason starting pitching acquisition is Carl Pavano.”
I’m actually kind of wishing we had given him or Mitre a shot based on how the Ace start turned out.
Don’t throw things at me-
But I actually think giving Igawa one more chance to start a game is a worthwhile idea
Please don’t throw things at me
“I don’t see DeLeon being in AA ball at 20. He turns 19 later this year. He has great potential, but I need to see more plate discipline beyond what he’s doing in GCL right now”
23 K’s in 64 AB’s with 4 walks? Seems a little raw.
ESPN insider has a rumor that Jobas going to the pen: “Rumors: Joba Chamberlain to pen … again”. Anyone see any credibility in this one? I don’t have insider but if someone does please check that out and get back to us.
============================================================
How’s that going to work? The Yankees already need another starter unless Ace is staying in the rotation.
So that would have Ace and some AAA guy in the rotation and Phil and Joba in the Pen.
They already said Phil is staying in the Pen.
No way! Joba gets a few more starts before going to the Pen, AAA, or DL.
This Halladay thing is not going away and I really wouldn’t mind seeing Rios come to the Yankees with him. Rios is better than any of the Yankee outfielders on the team right now. That’s going to take a lot of players and $$ to get done though.
Yankees have said they don’t want to increase payroll for what that’s worth. Maybe they are willing to get a lesser player/pitcher and let it play out.
If you don’t think Kevin Long is a good hitting coach, you have never talked to people in and around the game. The guy is a great hitting coach.
He’s done a “terrible” job with Cano, hasn’t he?
The guy went from having an off-season last year to a borderline AS season this year.
Terrible work Kevin!
81 million dollars in salary relief for a team struggling for $$$ after the death of their owner, brings the player for player price down.
Even with that, they get a lot of talent back and significant financial relief. Exactly what they are looking for.
Bob Elliot,sports writter of torontosun.com is saying the Angels 5-2,and The Yankees 3-2 are the two teams favored to land Halladay,they want Phil and prospects.
SJ44,
You were totally against Rios or Wells in the deal the other day and you have somewhat reverse course in order to get a deal done.
I respect your opinion and if you’re throwing out that trade proposal as a discussion item, I respect that too, but I have to wonder if the Steinbrenners will approve such a trade.
Speaking strictly as a Yankee fan that wants to win at all cost, I would do whatever, but I don’t think it’s happening or the reality that the Steinbrenners live in. I hope I’m wrong because I want Halladay on this team.
Yakees are 3-1 sorry.
“Seriously. For all we know Goose is commenting on this blog too…..”
Goose my fist your face ! Keep yapping.
If Rios regaining form already seen at the ML level is a “Big IF”, how big an “IF” are players that have not shown it as consistently?
It’s hard to think of the kids with your head sometimes instead of your heart but if both sides feel the pinch a little, it’s a good trade.
It’s not a “rumor” based on anything other than Goose Gossage saying they should do it… that’s all.
I agree Joba is unlikely to go to the pen until/unless they add Halladay/Lee and a healthy Wang.
I don’t recall SJ being against this trade scenero..In fact he agreed that to get Roy you’ll have to take on either Wells or Rios…..
“The guy went from having an off-season last year to a borderline AS season this year.”
Under whose tutelage did he go from a borderline allstar in ’07 to having an off season last year?
I’ve seen Sosa play. He and DeLeon are the best of the younger OF’s in the organization, IMO.
Both guys combine athleticism with good baseball IQ’s for kids so young.
You never look at BB totals, or K totals for that matter, of guys that young. The objective is not to “work counts” when you are that young.
First off, the pitching is so raw at those levels, all you would do is walk 100 times a year. That’s not what you want from guys that young.
What you want them to do is swing the bat. Look to make contact and begin the slow process of pitch recognization.
As they get to Charleston and Tampa, they better hone their pitch recognition skills.
For right now, you want them to be aggressive and take look to make contact. Both kids do a very nice job of that right now. Much like Montero did 2 years ago.
SJ44
July 14th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Bod,
I have a feeling the Yankees wouldn’t have any problems playing Melky/Gardner in CF next year if they had Alex Rios in RF.
Austin has been playing a lot of corner OF in AAA, as well as CF. Melky and/or Brett can play CF as well as Austin can.
As far as a pure prospect though, DeLeon has more upside than Austin, IMO. He’s going to be in AA at 20 years old if he keeps up his current pace.
That kid is really, really going to be fun to watch.
Again, a deal has to hurt some from the Yankee side or its not getting done.
It hurts less though when you are getting talent in return to make the parent club better, and have the depth in the system to absorb the player losses.
=====
I have no problem w/Melky/Gardner in CF – especially Melky, who has improved from the right side and therefore is becoming a real switch hitter. Gardner needs to improve vs. lefties. The platoon, as such, is fine with me.
As people keep predicting his demise, he continues to come up with good ABs. I have always seen a player who can hit in Cabrera – just needs to keep improving his OBP.
Agree about KDL, know all about him and his rocket arm and power bat, as well as other virtues. Have not yet seen him live, but someone I really trust has, and what he has seen bears out reports and the numbers he’s producing.
He won’t be playing CF, however – that position is much more important to team defense, as I’m sure you realize. Besides, these kids are not even going to sniff the pros for 4 or so years.
I think you see Jackson playing left because that’s how they would ease him in; they did the same thing with Melky and Gardner played left before moving to the middle.
I would go with what brung me to the brink of first place – tweak or add an ancillary arm without forsaking the only position prospects on the verge of the majors – and down the road, I’d take my shot at YOUNG pitching, like Felix in 2011.
I’m against moving Joba or Hughes. I do enjoy the speculative trades and debates, though.
According to the torontosun.com Texas has the best farm system in the Majors,but no money they are favored as 6-1
Dodgers 6-1 RS 5-1 willing to move Clay B,and Lars Anderson
Cash,
I said I wouldn’t take on Wells’ contract in any scenario.
Still wouldn’t.
I would take on Rios’ deal in the right scenario because I think he can be the RF for the next 5-8 years.
I also think he needs to get out of Toronto and KLong would do wonders with him.
It would also make life easier for the Yankees in the off-season as they re-structure their OF.
Here is the way I look at it….
I would rather have 28 year old Alex Rios manning RF for me at 59 million over the next 4 years than either Jason Bay or Matt Holliday manning LF for similar or probably more money.
Rios has talent and is a good defensive outfielder with a great arm. However, I’m not sure if he can turn his career around here as Paulie did when he came to the Yankees. O’Neill was 30 when he was traded here. He never hit for high average with the Reds, but he walked some with a little power. I wish Rios was a lefty batter. I wonder if he’s strictly a pull hitter?
Have the Vegas casinos opened official betting for the Halladay States yet???
Huge waste of time to play GM for a complicated trade like this…. All I can say is that if the Yanks decide they are serious about this trade… Find a way to keep Hughes over Joba please… Joba is a mental midget w/ no composure I’m already sick of him…
“I would rather have 28 year old Alex Rios manning RF for me at 59 million over the next 4 years than either Jason Bay or Matt Holliday manning LF for similar or probably more money.”
SJ44,
You have a good point there.
This is a Fangraphs post from July 9th:
“Thanks to the declaration that Roy Halladay is available, the Blue Jays roster has been thrust into trade speculation in the last few days. Yesterday’s surprising release of B.J. Ryan, who had $15 million left on his contract that ran through 2010, only heightened the attention towards the contracts Toronto has on the books. It has become commonplace, in fact, for people to refer to the ugly contracts for Vernon Wells and Alex Rios, and speculate about Ricciardi’s ability to get someone to take those two off his hands.
Except, you know, those two aren’t remotely similar, and lumping them together is pretty dumb.”
“Vernon Wells contract is awful, and the Jays have to regret giving it to him every single day. Alex Rios‘ contract is very good, and he’s one of the pieces Toronto should be building around. They are in no way similar.”
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....rios-wells
Cash is King
July 14th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Rios has talent and is a good defensive outfielder with a great arm. However, I’m not sure if he can turn his career around here as Paulie did when he came to the Yankees. O’Neill was 30 when he was traded here. He never hit for high average with the Reds, but he walked some with a little power. I wish Rios was a lefty batter. I wonder if he’s strictly a pull hitter?
***
O’Neill had trouble hitting in Cinncinatti because Pinella didn’t like his stance at the plate and made him try heels while batting
To change things up I found this article yesterday from a PS3 site I frequent. Seemed good to bring it up today.
MLB 09: The Show Predicts: NL To End All-Star Game Winless Streak
http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/5446.html
Cute article, has the NL beating the AL tonight 5-2!
Damn good game btw.
OT; Heard on ESPN at lunch; Since he has come back ARod has more Hrs & RBIs than any other player in the AL, and the NYY have the AL’s best record in that time. Not too shabby!
“I can’t imagine the collective stroke this place would have if Kei Igawa had to make another start for the Yankees. The only thing that would top it, I think, is if Cashman’s big midseason starting pitching acquisition is Carl Pavano.”
“I’m actually kind of wishing we had given him or Mitre a shot based on how the Ace start turned out.”
==========================================================
Does Igawa throw strikes? Is he better than Tomko?
They’ve got a lot of $$ invested in him. Maybe give him a shot out of the Pen.
Mitre will likely get the next #5 start if Ace goes back to the Pen. I’m not so sure the Yankees can count on him going 5 inning without getting bombed though.
This sucks! 6 weeks ago the Yankees had too many starters, now they don’t have enough.
If Bruney had come back and done his job, then Phil would be the answere! Is it too late to strech him back out? I know it did not go well with Joba getting hurt last year…
SJ44
July 14th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
I’ve seen Sosa play. He and DeLeon are the best of the younger OF’s in the organization, IMO.
Both guys combine athleticism with good baseball IQ’s for kids so young.
You never look at BB totals, or K totals for that matter, of guys that young. The objective is not to “work counts” when you are that young.
====
That isn’t the objective when you’re 16, but we can be confident that as they move up, the Yankees are fairly obssessed with teaching these kids strike zone/plate discipline and trying to use all fields. That is good to see throughout the system and a far cry to trying -and failing – to turn Eric Duncan into a dead pull lefty because of the Stadium.
Any thoughts on the Yankees taking a shot at Lowe from the Braves?
the halladay trade talk is red hot.
very interested to see what happens.
i think that after the asg things will heat up.
will the yankees go for the big fish or get a lesser pitcher like lee,washburn,wandy r,bannister,etc….
“O’Neill had trouble hitting in Cinncinatti because Pinella didn’t like his stance at the plate and made him try heels while batting”
Yeah, I know that Sweet Lou screwed Paulie up.
PA –
Come up with a package to get Cliff Lee – forget Halladay.
Exactly, Tom in NJ….further my point made at July 14th, 2009 at 1:03 pm.
SJ, you change Rios to Wells and have the Jays pay half his 11-14 salary and salary bonus left, you got that deal done.
SJ is right – this team is close to being absolutely being a WS contender. If things hadn’t gone so wrong with Wang, if Joba hadn’t regressed, if Andy hadn’t regressed (he’s about the same as he was last year, 2nd half), then we’d be in really great shape now. For people to say (and I’ve read this) that, wow – the Yankees have spent all this $$$ on FA pitching and they are still having issues ……I think that’s unfair. There are things you just can’t predict. I honestly thought Andy and Joba would be much better than they have been (Joba, I expected to be up and down…..but I didn’t expect the lack of innings; Andy seemes like he’s done). The Yankees have to adjust on the fly, like every team. Things don’t always happen in a smooth, straight line. This team, with a couple of tweaks, is good enough to win a WS. They’re a very good team and I don’t think there is any way that they sit tight and let the opportunity pass. I’m not saying it means Halladay, but they will get pitching. Cash asked how he could take Phil out of the pen and still look Mo in the eyes, knowing how few years Mo has left to win. The same thing goes with improving the SP….think Cash wants to look Mo, Jeter, etc.in the eyes and say – we’re going to wait and see if Wang, Andy, Joba return/return to form? No way.
SJ, how many pitchers do you think the Yanks need? I think they need two – to cover for Wang and to cover for Andy/Joba. I don’t know how close the Yankees are to sending Joba down (I would not put him in the pen for a multitude of reasons), but they can’t do it if they don’t have a better replacement.
RIos is not a pull happy hitter – he can drive the ball all over the place. His numbers don’t reflect his ability.
Now this is funny.The denverpost.com is banking on the fact that Hallafay is from Colorado,he might want to his home town.
They say he could get to 300 wins,funny. lol!
The Jays would not take Joba? It has to be Phil?
The only players in the system that are eligible to be traded that I would remove from the Yankee are Hughes, Montero, Banuelos and Romine. Give the Jays their pick of any 7 players with no more than one from any position other than pitching. Take on Halladay and Rios and see what SF will offer from their system for Swisher and add those/that player to the selection choice. I’d also let them chose between Gardner and Cabrera if they want.
As they move up, yes, that’s the goal. That comes with more experience in recoginizing pitches.
Early on though, they never want these kids to lose their aggressiveness at the plate. They always believe you dial back someone. They believe its harder to make them more aggressive because they tend to overdo it and become too aggressive.
I bet Boston wouldn’t give up the WS ring they won to get back Hanley Ramirez, even though they are in dire need of a SS right now.
The ring is the thing. If the window is open, bust through and worry about the consequences later.
AKA, if they can get Halladay for a reasonable price like the one SJ proposed, they should not hesitate for a second.
The way this is being discussed is honestly kind of tiresome. Cashman is not trading Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain. He wouldn’t do it for Johan Santana, and there’s no reason why he’d do it for a pitcher who’s three years older and has another huge contract on the horizon. Do you realize how poisonous repeatedly trading young, cost-controlled (and superstar potential) talent for aging veterans can be?
Cashman just won’t do it. In fact I’m pretty sure if someone put a gun to his head and told him to choose between his wife and Joba Chamberlain or Phil Hughes, he might be inclined to go with one of the pitchers. These two are the future cornerstones of this franchise, his crown jewels and the centerpieces of his plan to develop this franchise since he was entrusted with full control over baseball operations.
GB7,
One of the catcher has to come if I’m Toronto.
is ace back in the pen??
i would give igawa the start.
why not?
as the 5th starter for one game.
is mitre any better?
i think mitre will get the next start though.
at the very least why not send tomko away & try igawa in the pen??
“Come up with a package to get Cliff Lee – forget Halladay.”
Lee will be just as expensive, I’d say try to steal an Ian Snell a Zach Duke (It’s rhe pirates ppl)or and this is a stretch try to steal Jonathan Sanchez from San Francisco.
Great proposal SJ. I would do it in a second.
The Yankees rotation simply isn’t good enough to win it all this year. Joba and Pettitte are unreliable. We can’t afford to wait for Wang to come back; who knows how effective he’ll be if he makes it back in time this year.
Sure the Yankees could try to pick up a second-tier option like Bannister, but why not try to get the best option out there instead of settling? This is the Yankees we’re talking about. They went all-out this past offseason to get their man in CC, get the next best option in AJ, then surprise everyone by getting Tex. Obviously, the Yankees have alot invested in winning this year. Why not go the extra mile to give this team the best rotation in baseball and the best possible chances of winning their first world series in 9 years?
“I bet Boston wouldn’t give up the WS ring they won to get back Hanley Ramirez, even though they are in dire need of a SS right now.”
You’ve got that right.
vb03-I would not sacrifice that ring were I the Sox.
If the Yankees miss out on Halladay, I would love to see them try to get Wandy Rodriguez. It might be tough because the Astros usually never give up on any of their seasons and are always reluctant to trade people during the year. But I think he would be a perfect fit because for a while now, he has been VERY GOOD pitching at home- and we all know Minute Maid is probably the best hitters park in baseball outside of Yankee Stadium. To me, that would make him a very attractive candidate to pitch for us in our new ballpark. He’s a solid pitcher already who has steadily improved since he broke into the bigs.
GLove, I agree – this team is a very good team. Things have not broken right with the pitching, so you have to adjust. I think the pieces are there in the pen to succeed IF the SP can get itself righted (though I have no clue what to think about Bruney). The problem is that I don’t really trust Bannister or Washburn to come in and pitch well in the AL East……but for a #4 or #5, they probably could do it. The problem is, we’re also looking for a #3.
Let’s not make a big deal out of Roy saying he wouldn’t mind pitching for the Yankees. First, I agree with that…..but it’s not like it’s obvious he’s got some bug to come here. He’ll go anywhere he can win…..though I think he’d prefer to stay in Toronto.
There’s no question Bucholz is being put out there by the Sox as bait – I don’t believe in coincidences, that he’d be pitching against the Jays by happenstance. No…..I hate reacting to what the Sox are doing, but my word – we can’t let Doc go to Boston. I hope Cash has asked JP to get back to him before any decisions are made
betsy-Congrats for the callout by Pete.
“Lee will be just as expensive, I’d say try to steal an Ian Snell a Zach Duke (It’s rhe pirates ppl)or and this is a stretch try to steal Jonathan Sanchez from San Francisco.”
Too many quesion marks, I want the sure thing in Halladay. I do agree that Lee would be as expensive as Halladay.
Brandon
Lee will be just as expensive, I’d say try to steal an Ian Snell a Zach Duke (It’s rhe pirates ppl)or and this is a stretch try to steal Jonathan Sanchez from San Francisco.
- Zach Duke would be nice. Ian Snell is HORRIBLE ! 2-8 .. over 5 ERA . and his rotting in tripple A. NO Thanks ! .
I could see the back of the NY Post now . IAN SMELL .
IMO the Halladay/Rios combo makes giving up the talent needed to make it happen easier to handle for the Yankees FO, as well as there are not too many teams that can take on that type of money during the season.
The only guy off-limits is Montero and there is no way they include both Joba/Hughes. I wonder if instead of Phelps in SJ’s proposal the Yankees would think of including Dellin or Vizciano.
If I were Cash I would be looking to get this done ASAP and not wait for the deadline.
Right, which is the sort of conundrum with Cano – you don’t want to neuter his aggressiveness – how many hits does the kid have on first pitches? The objective is not to “take” pitches – it’s to find your way on base.
You want him to find a happy medium.
His earlier OBP numbers were such a tease, but they showed he can be disciplined. It is not, however, his nature – he comes to the plate looking to drive a pitch. He was earnest and fairly robotic about the determined plate discipline earlier.
Eventually, he began to lurch out there for pitches he could reach. KLong’s task is to nurture the larger expression – and then reign him back in – allow for the expression – pull him back, or dial him back, if you like.
I’d like Wandy Rodriguez too. Just because it is actually my wifes maiden name.
It sounds like Pete Abe is included in the Mussina Yankeeography. I just heard the promo and definitely Pete Abe’s voice.
Pete???
Her first name is Wanda, family calls her Wandy
bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
July 14th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Five Iron From Fenway
July 14th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
GB7 can update us on Almonte, converted from INF to OF. Hear he’s adapting beautifully defensively, but the bat is lagging behind.
————————————————————
Almonte isn’t progressing with the bat at all. Strikes out way too much for what he does. Great speed on the bases and in the field, very good arm but makes too many mistakes in overthrows and throwing to the wrong bases. He’s been getting platooned a lot, lately.
Of the Charleston outfielders, gotta love the potential of Melky Mesa’s power, speed and outfield defense and arm, but, Good Lord, those strikeouts.
“- Zach Duke would be nice. Ian Snell is HORRIBLE ! 2-8 .. over 5 ERA . and his rotting in tripple A. NO Thanks ! .
I could see the back of the NY Post now . IAN SMELL .”
We’re talking #4 or 5 spot, is Snell really that bad, he had a good start last time on the hill. Snell isn’t that far removed from his once #2-3 SP days. Duke if Cashman could rob him would be an upgrade in the #3 spot. Sanchez could be a gamble and then if he pans out and Wang returns he becomes a big upgrade for the #4 or 5 slot.
Toronto will have no interest in doing a deal now. They are going to wait it out and drive up the cost unless they are overwhelmed. SJ’s deal is not overwhelming with Rios. It’s a good fair trade, but not blowing their socks off. Change it to Wells and split the moolah.
“vb03 July 14th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I bet Boston wouldn’t give up the WS ring they won to get back Hanley Ramirez, even though they are in dire need of a SS right now.
The ring is the thing. If the window is open, bust through and worry about the consequences later.”
This qualifies as best post of the day.
Wandy rodriguez would be nice.
i don’t see it happening.
i see cash getting washburn maybe lee.
Cash is King
July 14th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
GB7,
One of the catcher has to come if I’m Toronto.
————————————————————
They need a catcher by next year and neither is ready for that. Cervelli could start for them this year….right now.
If someone told me (and I knew it to be true) that if we switched the Yankees AAA and ML rosters we’d win the WS, I’d do it.
Do anything to keep Montero.
I’d give up Romine AND Cervelli if they asked.
Why is Kei Igawas name being brought up. Kei Igawa is the last option to start. I would let Mo start before Igawa.
Not sure that Toronto is willing to take Betances. He’s not far from being on the DL with Tommy John Surgery.
Coach6423-I agree.
“They need a catcher by next year and neither is ready for that. Cervelli could start for them this year….right now.”
Cervelli isn’t a starting catcher offensively. I think Toronto will want Montero, but will take Romine instead.
Bodh, IMO Cano gets a lot of first pitch hits because he has unbelievable hand eye coordination. It’s no mystery that pitchers try to pitch first pitch strikes, thus it will be around the plate.
That being said, his pitch selection is awful. He swings at a lot of balls well off the plate. Tries pulling outside pitches too. You can see his facial expression when he is down in the count, he looks worried.
You can bank on the above as being the reason for his crappy OBP and hits with RISP. Even his OBP is inflated now because of the 8 walks he had early in the year. COmplete abberration.
I read an article somewhere yesterday discussing Buccholtz and how the theory in player development is if you leave a player who is tearing up a level in that level too long you risk regression with the player.
The article then cited that Buccholtz’s numbers have been slipping a tad of late because he’s torn up AAA for so long this season and hasn’t been promoted.
It’s like not having a carrot on the stick in front of the horse.
If the Red Sox believed in him he’d be up helping the team right now, but instead they are “rewarding” him w/a start friday to say thanks for the good AAA numbers.
It’s a ruse. He’s going to be dealt.
He’s pitching Friday to get his next team to sweeten the pot.
If he goes out and stinks, it hurts the Red Sox in a potential deal but he’s still an attractive trade chip.
Theo has something up his sleeve and Buchholtz will be the center of that deal.
I’d most want to keep Hughes + Montero and I’d be surpised if JP allowed Halladay to brutalize the Blue Jays for the next 3-4 years in the division.
I would be more than willing to trade Joba + AJAX + Romine + Betances for Halladay + Rios.
I would also sign Figgins in the offseason to give us an outfield of Figgins (LF), Melky/Gardner (CF) and Rios (RF).
I’d deal Swisher for a bullpen arm.
GB7,
Thanks for update, as always. I’m running to lunch, but I heard, despite K rates, Melky has improved facing breaking stuff?
Maybe Almonte can learn more in-game savvy as he progresses in the OF. Too bad about the bat.
halladay is on top of the mountain as far as value.
for toronto to wait is stupid.
if he pitches 2 hitless innings tonight that is icing on the cake.
toronto has a perfect chance to get a boatload of prospects to go along with the tons they already have.
they have several good young pitchers along with some nice young bats.
add 4 or 5 prospects like joba,romine,ajax,pena & their future is bright.
Romine is best suited to playing a corner outfield (left field preferrably) in NY within 2 two years.
G. Love-Or he wants Halladay has decided to take a risk by showing off Bucholz figuring if he does well, the stock goes up and he may have to give less to get Halladay if Bucholz is involved in the deal.
Halladay + Snell > Hughes + Joba
Snell struck out 17 in a AAA game recently and was really good not to long ago.
I’d willingly trade Hughes or Joba, whichever one.
Ian Snell is not > than Hughes or Joba. If you put Joba or Hughes in AAA right now, they dominate as well.
Cash is King
July 14th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
“They need a catcher by next year and neither is ready for that. Cervelli could start for them this year….right now.”
Cervelli isn’t a starting catcher offensively. I think Toronto will want Montero, but will take Romine instead.
————————————————————
Cervelli will hit more than enough on that turf. He’s young, cheap, ready and defensively, he’s exactly what Toronto needs for a young pitching staff. They would grow up together.
The Jays have a catching prospect who could be MLB ready soon- J.P. Arencibia. Baseball America had him ranked #2 overall in their system.
I admit, I now nothing about him. Maybe SJ does because Arencibia’s from Miami…
Just what I want, more Toronto Blue Jays on this team so we can uh, become uh, like the uh, Toronto Blue Jays? Sorry I pass on Halladay. AJ is enough.
First of all, Halladay looks way too much like Randy Johnson…he’s also made comments about the new stadium and homeruns, etc.
Lastly, we’ll have to give up way too much to get him..I’m thinking Joba, Ajax, Montero and Pena would get it done and I just don’t want to part with that for Halladay. Groin injuries for pitchers are nagging, even when you are *healed*.
Remember folks, WS championships are not purchased they are earned.
I don’t think Buchholz is going anywhere. In fact, I think he’s nearly a lock to be in their rotation next season.
They’ve got two pitchers over 40 yrs old and Brad Penny.
Buccholz is going to replace one of them.
Doc, CC, AJ, Andy, Snell…..size the rings, its over
“Romine is best suited to playing a corner outfield (left field preferrably) in NY within 2 two years.”
I’ve heard scouts differ in that opinion.
Shouldn’t you consider those Toronto scouts at Pawtucket’s last game because Buchholtz is facing them this Friday?
Easy to read into these things, until you look a little closer.
Anything can happen, but you need to look at the obvious, too.
Jweav=Ian Snell????
“Cervelli will hit more than enough on that turf. He’s young, cheap, ready and defensively, he’s exactly what Toronto needs for a young pitching staff. They would grow up together.”
I think you’re overrating Cervelli based on 60 something ML at-bats. His less than 700 at-bats in the minors is larger sample size that tells me more.
the rs are weak in catching & ss so it might not be a good match.
we have the pitching,catching,ss prospects to get it done.
the pieces are in place.
Good morning, guys.
Read through the other threads and saw some interesting stuff.
1. Pete, why the “f” word gets through but I can’t write one of my favorite synonyms because it contains the first four letters of those fancy drinks rich people drink before dinner?
2. Favorite moments? All the wins. Too many others to count, but probably watching Phil, Gardner, Pena, & Cervelli hold their own. (see? I am a prospect hugger!)
3. Thanks to those in the previous thread that actually tried to look at the financials/luxury tax implications of doing a Halladay + OF trade. If it doesn’t happen, I don’t think it’s because of the $$. More likely it’d be because Toronto would set the price too high for the Yankees, just as Bill Smith did.
4. So Buccholz is being showcased, huh? Interesting.
I do not think Cervelli will amt. to anything offensively. But that’s JMO.
SJ, that is the trade that makes the most sense. I also proposed yesterday getting Rios in the deal as opposed to having to try and sign Holiday or Bay especially since Bay probably stays in Boston. You did a good job of putting the farm players together.
We need an OF next year anyway and Rios is a better option that the others that would be out there.
With all the money coming off the books next year (40mm – Pettite,Damon,Matsui,Nady,Molina) we should be able to absorb the hit this year.
SJ, try putting a deal together if Toronto insists on Wells instead of Rios. We could still handle the money part but what prospects would you give up if you would do the deal at all?
I know you have said you wouldn’t but what if Boston was involved?
Coach……..Halladay plus snell would be better than hughes plus joba.
I just had the craziest thought-
The last time the NL won the ASG.
a) I was in high school
b) The Yankees hadn’t won the World Series in 17 seasons
Give them a starter to replace Halladay (Joba), an OF to replace Rios (AJAX), a catcher (Romine) and a shortstop (Pena).
Re: the scouts at Pawtucket. You only read what they want you to read.
J/K. Apparently Toronto sent a bunch of scouts around the league this past week.
My favorite moment was the first pitch HR by A-Rod. Followed by the dropped ball and Mo’s 500th save and RBI.
bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
July 14th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
GB7,
Thanks for update, as always. I’m running to lunch, but I heard, despite K rates, Melky has improved facing breaking stuff?
Maybe Almonte can learn more in-game savvy as he progresses in the OF. Too bad about the bat.
————————————————————
My pleasure. It’s a pity about Almonte, but, this is his 2nd year in Charleston and, he’s carried last year’s 2nd half slump into this year. He has the talent to be another Jackson….just not sure about his learning potential.
Mesa’s just a fun player to watch (that power is explosive), except for the strikeouts. Think Alfonso Soriano at bat. He’s very fast, but, not Soriano fast.
Remember folks, WS championships are not purchased they are earned.
Right, tell that to the Marlins in 97 and DBacks in 01.
Vernon Wells right now is an older and much more fragile Melky Cabrera earning Miguel Cabrera money.
Riccardi insisting on somebody taking Wells is a deal breaker. Nobody is going to take on that contract.
I think Montero is expendable since we have Tex. Montero defense suites him better at 1B or DH.
“The Jays have a catching prospect who could be MLB ready soon- J.P. Arencibia. Baseball America had him ranked #2 overall in their system.
I admit, I now nothing about him. Maybe SJ does because Arencibia’s from Miami…”
Here you go. Doesn’t seem to have much plate discipline, but he’s playing AAA ball right now.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.....pid=450317
toronto i am sur are scouting a lot of teams.
i am sure they have heavilly scouted the yankees farm system also.
wouldn’t make a big deal out of it.
if we can land a decent pitcher like w rodriguez i’d be happy.
“If the Red Sox believed in him he’d be up helping the team right now, ”
Not when they’re paying Penny and Smoltz to play for them. They absolutely believe in him which is why they learned their lesson from last season and are being careful with him.
If Theo was going to trade Buchholz he would have done it for Teixeira. Pitching the Sox have it isn’t what they need.
DB-And Yankees in 77/78.
jweav,
you are pretty insane right now….you want snell and think montero is expendable.
DB July 14th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Remember folks, WS championships are not purchased they are earned.
Right, tell that to the Marlins in 97 and DBacks in 01.
——————————–
Boston 2007. They aren’t exactly a low payroll team.
Do what it takes to win. Jeter, A-Rod, Mo and Posada’s years are numbered. Either you do what it takes to put the team over the top now, or risk your older players being in decline by the time these youngsters are ready in the major league level.
Oh, I heard the funniest thing on local sports radio.
Had a writer from St. Louis talking up the game, Albert Pujols (gag), and the Cards.
He said Albert’s by far the best player in the game. Alex was in the conversation a couple of years ago, but with the injury and the allegations not anymore (wait, that’s not the funny part because he’s actually right about that).
The funny part is that they might make another move. Got DeRosa by giving up their closer of the future, but the hitter ended up on the DL after 3 days. So, maybe they go after Holliday who might come cheaply because he’s struggling mightily in Oakland. Or they might get Doug Davis to round out the rotation.
So, I’m cracking up because Billy Beane’s not going to sell anyone cheaply. And secondly, the Red Sox would get him if they did.
They need a bat more than a pitcher, no?
So MLBTR has Javier Vazquez as a trade candidate.
Wouldn’t it be funny if…
Cash is King
July 14th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
“Cervelli will hit more than enough on that turf. He’s young, cheap, ready and defensively, he’s exactly what Toronto needs for a young pitching staff. They would grow up together.”
I think you’re overrating Cervelli based on 60 something ML at-bats. His less than 700 at-bats in the minors is larger sample size that tells me more.
————————————————————
I don’t over value anybody. Cervelli’s a solid singles hitter, but, he’s not likely to hit for power.
As for Romine, he’s got good footspeed, and, it’ll be wasted behind the plate. Not to mention, he has stiff hands and doesn’t shift his feet very well.
ME.
Why would they trade for Tex when he was a free agent? Just a friendly gesture?
-dennis
“I don’t over value anybody. Cervelli’s a solid singles hitter, but, he’s not likely to hit for power.
As for Romine, he’s got good footspeed, and, it’ll be wasted behind the plate. Not to mention, he has stiff hands and doesn’t shift his feet very well.”
You’re overrating him in my opinion if you think being a solid singles hitter cuts it at as a starting ML catcher.
“Right, tell that to the Marlins in 97 and DBacks in 01.”
May soon be adding the ’09 Yankees to this list.
By the way, Romine isn’t changing position unless he demonstrates he can’t be a catcher at the ML level.
Pujols, right now, is the best player in the game.
But the steroids really don’t make A-Rod a “worse” player, unless you believe his talent is steroid induced.
Longoria out of ASG. Chone Figgins in:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4326985
Don’t buy that Javy Vasquez is available. Braves aren’t totally out of the running yet and unless they were getting a useful offensive player that is in the ML or absolutely ML ready back in return I doubt they do any move.
$$$$-Whatever it takes.
Most scouts think Romine is more likely to stick at catcher than Montero.
That said, Montero’s still got that bat…
It’s a ruse. He’s going to be dealt.
He’s pitching Friday to get his next team to sweeten the pot.
If he goes out and stinks, it hurts the Red Sox in a potential deal but he’s still an attractive trade chip.
Theo has something up his sleeve and Buchholtz will be the center of that deal.
==================
I agree, it seems pretty obvious to me that his start Friday is a ML showcase. Buchholz could have helped the Sox earlier this year, but wasn’t called up.
Something’s going on with him.
“Most scouts think Romine is more likely to stick at catcher than Montero.
That said, Montero’s still got that bat…”
True and Romine’s bat is pretty good too.
We’re going to need a catcher in a couple years. If Montero keeps up that wicked bat, then thy’ll get Jorge Posada and Joe Girardi to personally tutor him at catcher.
Yogi Berra started out as an OF’er and a bad backup catcher until Bill Dickey tutored him.
Gammons was just on ESPN, and said he heard that the Red Sox had the best chance of acquiring Halladay because of the pieces they could offer (even though he admitted that even what they could offer wouldn’t get it done).
Really? Gammons thought the Red Sox were the front runners for something? There’s a shocker.
Seriously, does this anyone…ANYONE take this guy seriously anymore? I know that I didn’t grow up with the guy before he became a caricature of himself, but I really, REALLY don’t understand how he got put in the Hall.
Mo’s family at the AS Game.
http://www.gettyimages.com/det.....ages-Sport
Since the day he returned, Arod is 2nd in the majors in HRs(Pujols), 3rd in RBIs and 3rd in walks. He is 1st in the AL in those categories. He is also still not at 100%, and the first few weeks were basically his ST. I would say that talk of his demise is somewhat premature. His BA has been lower than we have seen it, but I think we have seen his worst for this year, and he will end up @.285.
BTW, someone really jumped the shark on Hughes+prospects for Snell.
That’s what the Yankees could do for for Halladay. Thus the 3-1 odds in the Doc sweepstakes.
So, do the writers up north believe that Hughes is a better fit for Toronto than Joba? Or do they assume that Joba’s untouchable?
For what it’s worth, Swisher has been more valuable than Rios this year.
Swisher: 1.4 WAR
Rios: 0.9 WAR
In general this year, they are equals in the field, according to UZR. Rios was awesome in RF last year. Swisher is more of an impact bat.
That being said, Rios was the superior player in 2007 and 2008. They were very similar value in 2006.
Also keep in mind that Swisher makes:
$5.3 mil this year
$6.75 mil in 2010
$9 mil in 2011
$10.25 mil in 2012 with a $1 mil buyout.
So essentially the Yankees owe him ~$19.5 million (I roughly prorated the rest of 2009).
Rios on the other hand makes:
$5.9 mil this year
$9.7 mil in 2010
$12 mil in 2011
$12 mil in 2012
$12.5 mil in 2013
$12.5 mil in 2014
$13.5 mil in 2015 with a $1 mil buyout
So if the Yanks were to trade for Rios they would owe him $62.6 million.
Is it worth $42 million to exchange Rios and Swisher especially considering Swisher might be as good or better than Rios?
Just another hurdle to SJ44′s proposed trade idea.
pat: Oh my his boys have grown!
I remember in the 2000 yearbook how they’re all toddlers!
We have 3-1 odds to get Doc?
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
July 14th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Most scouts think Romine is more likely to stick at catcher than Montero.
That said, Montero’s still got that bat…
————————————————————
With 5-7 young catchers in the system, now, at least 2 will be changing positions and two will be traded. All are ages 19-22 years old, except for the two drafted this year. The Yanks may become catchers-R-Us in the next couple of years when looking for young catching help.
The stats may say one thing, but anybody who has watched Rios and Swisher play will have to say that Rios is hands-down better. The question is, does his talent match up with the money he is owed?
Oh, stop it, guys.
You know, I know, and everyone else knows that A-rod’s reputation is shot.
He can put up all-world numbers, but it won’t erase the port-wine stain on his reputation.
He’s tainted. I don’t want to get steroids doesn’t mean anything or he’s been clean for years. I’m talking perception.
He won’t be considered one of the greatest of all time because he screwed up.
I’m talking perception, not stats.
I’m not trying to be disagreeable, but I really have to question defensive metrics that have Swisher rated ahead of Rios.
“With 5-7 young catchers in the system, now, at least 2 will be changing positions and two will be traded. All are ages 19-22 years old, except for the two drafted this year. The Yanks may become catchers-R-Us in the next couple of years when looking for young catching help.”
And since catchers are such a premium position, the Yankees could get quite a haul for the ones they do trade!
(Me…I’d be keeping Montero and Sanchez…)
Sign me up for SJ’s deal.
http://www.torontosun.com/spor.....6-sun.html
Angels 5-2.
But do they do another Tex type trade? Where they get burned in the end?
I think they need to deal with Lackey. Can’t see them going for both Lackey and Doc.
Swisher isn’t in the same zip code as Rios as a hitter or ball player. Not on defense, on the bases or at bat. He’s got him in power….maybe.
The Red Sox were the clear front runners for John Santana and Mark Teixeira, too.
Halladay is even less likely to go to the Red Sox than he is going to the Yanks.
I don’t believe for a minute that the Red Sox are serious about Halladay. They are kicking the tires on him likely everyone else.
I bet Buchholz will remain a Red Sock on August 1st.
m-I’m talking stats, not perception.
Perception you’re right. Stats he’s the best player in the AL.
m-That’s interesting. Very interesting.
pat-
thanks for sharing that pic. What a nice looking family. How big they’ve gotten, especially the oldest!
I have Old Timer’s Day tickets Sunday and apparently Joba is pitching…this could be the longest day in Yankee Stadium History. Maybe Whitey Ford can get the nod and Joba can head to the bullpen.
gammons said the same thing about tex,santanna,sabathia & every other player.
i just don’t see the rs coming up with a catcher or ss if in fact that is what toronto is looking for.
it gets interesting if buchholz pitches a gem.
if he gets bombed it hurts the rs big time especially considering buchholz will be 25 yrs old in august & joba & hughes are barely 23
Why? Because Swisher hits for a lower average and strikes out and looks more like a scruffy lip-packer better served for an adult softball league? What exactly makes Rios a better player than Swisher? The fact that he looks athletic and has a good arm? Or that he has a majestic looking swing?
Rios is not good, period, and he’s certainly not any better than Swisher is.
Gotta be club soda in that glass because Derek would never be out late the night before a game in a lounge drinking.
http://www.gettyimages.com/det.....ertainment
m:
“He won’t be considered one of the greatest of all time because he screwed up.”
To some, yes. No question.
To others, and with the passage of time to gain perspective on the PED issue, he has a chance to redeem himself if:
1) He can show sufficient post PED performance and
2) All Star caliber humility.
Truthfully, the second thing might be more important than the first in Alex’s case. People love it when a “bad” guy becomes a “good” guy through heroic behavior. Becoming someone people no longer love to hate would be a heroic change. Helping the team win a championship or two wouldn’t hurt either
“Longoria out of ASG. Chone Figgins in:”
WHAT A ….N WUSS, THAN DON’T GO TO THE ASG EVA !
Wait,
The only thing that would prevent the Yankees from getting Halladay is the Yankees themselves.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
July 14th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
“With 5-7 young catchers in the system, now, at least 2 will be changing positions and two will be traded. All are ages 19-22 years old, except for the two drafted this year. The Yanks may become catchers-R-Us in the next couple of years when looking for young catching help.”
And since catchers are such a premium position, the Yankees could get quite a haul for the ones they do trade!
(Me…I’d be keeping Montero and Sanchez…)
————————————————————
Yes on keeping Sanchez (because they must for one year) and Montero because he’s Montero. Any time you get a catcher with a 20 homer/.300 bat with speed to steal 15-20 bases, he needs to be in the outfield, though PAT M says he’d make a good corner infielder, too. Besides Cervelli and those three mentioned above, add Higashioka (who may be the best defensive of all) and Mitch Abeita, that’s quite a catching stable.
Eva Longoria out b/c out what hurt thumb, pinky…SISSY !
Tex seems to have enjoyed the HR Derby alot more than I did.
http://www.gettyimages.com/det.....ages-Sport
I don’t think one start is going to hurt Buchholz trade value much at all even if he doesn’t pitch well on Friday.
People around the game know his upside. They aren’t going to be deterred one direction or another based on one measly start.
Buchholz probably isn’t getting traded anyways so all the speculation is all for naught.
“i just don’t see the rs coming up with a catcher or ss if in fact that is what toronto is looking for”
I agree, but at the same time we can’t really be suggesting the Ramiro Pena is the SS they’re lookikng for either.
I’m glad Prince one. I always liked his dad.
Some writer (espn? Kepner?) didn’t put the whole Jeter quote. They conveniently left out the stuff after “he wouldn’t want to lose a player currently on the roster”:
OH, DOCTOR: The Yankees contingent could not avoid questions about the American League’s starting pitcher, Roy Halladay — not after the Blue Jays ace told reporters that he believes it’s about a 50-50 chance that he will be traded in-season.
Derek Jeter said that he isn’t the type of person who would go out of his way to recruit someone like Halladay, especially in the middle of the season, when any move would mean the Yankees would have to dump a player off their roster. But Jeter said he was relishing not having to face Halladay and having him on his side for a change.
“You see what he’s done to us,” Jeter said. “That’s pretty much all you’ve got to say. I’ve said it time and time again. He’s the best pitcher in the league.”
Mark Teixeira lauded Halladay as a competitor and hard worker. He said that even if the Yankees don’t wind up with Halladay in pinstripes, the hope is that the right-hander would be traded out of the American League East, and preferably to the National League.
“Every winter, I look at the free agent list of pitchers and I hope that every one of those pitchers pitches in the opposite league,” Teixeira said. “That’s just the way it is. This division is so stacked as it is, you don’t want any extra players coming into it.”
http://bombersbeat.mlblogs.com/
one is won.
I like Halladay much more for giving props to the Yankees’ hitters.
i just wish we took a chance on a greinke or gallardo or someone along those lines before they took off.
it always has to be for an ace established like pitcher that costs us a fortune in money & prospects.
edwin jackson,garza are other names.
i am not saying now but if we could of landed one of them before they became big names we would be in great shape.
Gammons is a puppet for the Red Sox front office. Of course the Red Sox are front runners. They are front runners for everything.
But when they don’t get the player then they are savvy geniuses who knew the player wasn’t worth the cost/risk involved and how the team that acquired him will be sorry and every prospect they just gave up for said player will turn out to be Willie Mays.
At this point Joba and Phil are more valuable than Buchholtz. They are both younger than him and they are both currently in the majors helping their teams.
And don’t give me the Buccholtz is being blocked by Penny/Smoltz bit.
They could trade Penny if they thought their young under control future ace tearing up AAA was ready to help the team.
He’s being put on showcase this Friday and he is going to be dealt unless the teams/players Theo is targeting in exchange for him aren’t willing/ready to deal.
If Penny and Smoltz go next season, they still have Dice K (healthy by then), Masterson and Bowden to fill out their rotation not to mention this Tazawa guy Gammons is creaming over.
Btw, under NO circumstances would I want Halladay if the Yankees had to take Wells with him.
Halladay is a pitcher who would give this team a shot in the arm, and make all the players excited. But adding an $18 million underachiever at the expense of sitting Melky and Gardner would kill the team chemistry.
First of all, the reason I brought up Rios vs Swisher is for this reason:
“Blue Jays get: Joba, Jackson, Romine, Swisher, Pena and David Phelps (currently in Charleston).
Yankees get: Halladay and Rios.”
Don’t jump to conclusions about Rios vs Swisher. In addition to getting Halladay for a ton of prospects we would be exchanging RF’s and adding little bit to sweeten the pot.
Look at this objectively. This year alone, Swisher is the better player. He is also due to make $42 million less than Rios in the next 5 years.
In the past Rios has been the better fielder and hitter but right now Swisher is an equal fielder and a much better hitter.
Is the chance that Rios returns to his 2007 numbers worth $42 million? Probably not.
Anyways, this isn’t even reason #1 why I don’t make the Halladay deal.
If the Yankees deal for Halladay and Rios, that would be great. They would need to send one of the current OF packing though; is that Swish? He’s not cheap for what he is either. I don’t see the Jays taking Swish so what do you do with all of these OFs? make another trade? send Melky?
Is Heinski going to play some 3b for A-Rod or is he another guy in a crowded OF? I know he’s hit some bombs since coming over, but he’s not better than Swish, is he?
Before the ASG, ESPN showed the power rankings. The Yankees were 3rd based on there record I guess. I don’t view them as the 3rd best team unless Joba start pitching better and they come up with a 5th starter than can go more than 3-4 innings. Top 5 I’ll give them because they do have heart and can score lots of runs.
SJ- I like your offer, I think it’s pretty fair but I don’t think the Yankee front office would do it-
I’m a Rios fan, but the contract for him is big (I don’t think he would get that on the open market) and I don’t think the regime is willing to give up on Joba.
I would do it, just don’t think the yankees would- I see us going after a Gil Meche type of guy-
pat
July 14th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Tex seems to have enjoyed the HR Derby alot more than I did.
http://www.gettyimages.com/det.....ages-Sport
———————————————————–
i hope that isn’t an angels hat.
Gammons is a Boston hack. No idea how he got into the HoF, but NESPN loves him as much as they do the Sox.
I don’t care what some defensive metric shows, Swisher isn’t a equal fielder to Rios.
Swisher is a lousy outfielder. I really can’t believe it when I read posts on here that laud his defense.
Anyone think we could offer Toronto sometihng like McCalister + for Rios and package Swish + to Atlanta for, gulp, Javier Vazquez?
Swisher and Rios are comparable hitting right now. No comparison on defense. We don’t have to get into the many reason of how defensive metrics are flawed, again.
Rios is also a year younger. No GM makes a trade for Swisher and Rios straight up.
I’d rank the Yanks 3rd.
Maybe the Red Sox are going to trade Penny? Buchholz pitching Friday doesn’t mean he’s getting traded at all.
Pat, thanks for posting the pictures. I also thought that Tex was wearing an Angels hat in that picture and then realized it was the AL All-Star team hat.
I’m not lauding his defense. By most metrics he is about league average defensively this year. The same as Rios.
However, this year is a huge outlier for Rios when it comes to defense. Last year he was freaking incredible in the outfield. He was way way way above average in CF and RF last year. I don’t know what’s going on with him in 2009, is he injured?
The problem the Sox have is Penny, Wakefield & Smoltz are old and Beckett is 1 year away from CiCi/Santana money. Bowden is viewed as a backend starter @ best. Masterson can’t get lefties out and is a reliever. Kelly is promising but just got to A+. Besides Buchholz the Sox don’t have an internal answer for their aging rotation.
That’s an American League All-Star hat on Tex.
murphydog,
Alex Rodriguez will be what he always wanted to be, deeply woven into baseball history.
The writer (and me) were talking about best in the game now. For the last five years I thought Alex was the best player, but with so many questions about his past, his reputation as the best player has rightfully taken a hit. Now if Pujols is also found to be guilty? And we have Ramirez, Bonds, Alex, Pujols? Then, yes, you have to either include them or go to another lesser level, like your Longorias or whomever.
So, Alex’s place in history might be a product of what he himself does from here on out. But might also be influenced by who else is found to be guilty of using PEDs.
But right now? I don’t think he deserves to be lauded with the greats he keeps company with. Not now anyway, the wounds haven’t healed yet.
rs
dodgers
angels
yankees is my list.
Wakefield is ridicuolusly overrated.
Just saying.
“Rios is also a year younger. No GM makes a trade for Swisher and Rios straight up.”
True, but Rios is typically among the league leaders in getting the minimum out of maximum tools.
Rios lacks discipline.
Dude lets put it this way. If I’m the Yankees GM and the Jays say to me “Rios for Swisher, straight up.” I would have to think long and hard about that deal.
Rios has more potential and he’s over his career a better defender. HOWEVER, he is owed $42 million MORE than Swisher. This year he has been just average on defense.
He doesn’t hit like a RF anymore. .798 OPS and .732 OPS the last two years – that just doesn’t cut it from a corner OF spot.
I think Alex Rios is still a guy could bring back some valuable players on his own. The Blue Jays aren’t trying to dump him, they just signed him. Weren’t the Giants trying to trade for him last offseason?
DB
i know it just looks like an angels hat wich is strange
My list:
Red Sox
Yankees
Dodgers
(Yes I originally said third for the Yaks but I thought about it and decided that the Dodger had issues w/pitching and were overrated. And I know we have issues w/pitching but we’re in the tougher division and league.)
Weren’t the Giants trying to trade for him last offseason?
—
Yea but JP asked for Lincecum >:)
Wait till, you can say it again if you want.
He is. 7th game of the WS on the line and we are going to trot up that dinosour for an inning? Joe Maddon should be shot for that pick.
Let me just be clear. Rios is a good player but he’s nowhere near worth his contract. If he hits like he did in 2006 and 2007 and plays defense like he did in 2008 then maybe he’s worth it. Otherwise? Nah
Yaks is Yanks.
They aren’t equal on offense at all. Rios has a .316 OBP and a .416 SLG. He has been a perennial disappointment over the course of his career and the “superstar” talent label that he gets from being huge and athletic and having a majestic swing isn’t going to magically amount to anything over the next couple of years.
“Yea but JP asked for Lincecum >:)”
Bet he heard a dailtone before he got the third syllable of Lincecum’s name out.
I don’t need some defensive metric to tell me who’s a good defensive player and who’s not. Swisher is not in the same class of outfielder that Rios has been in his career.
“Anyone think we could offer Toronto sometihng like McCalister + for Rios and package Swish + to Atlanta for, gulp, Javier Vazquez?”
Why would we ?
and pt.2 deal why would they ?
My prediction tonight is tons of waxing poetic about Wakefield.
G. Love-Absolutely.
It’s just so sickeningly insulting to Moose.
-Yankees
-Red Sox
-Angels
The only thing stopping the Yankees is themselves.
The Red Sox need a bat, but Halladay would be more reliable than a bat for years to come.
The Angels would have to choose between Lackey and Halladay imo.
The Phillies can easily win the division without Doc.
No window for an extension would hurt the Yankees chances. Taking on Rios helps the Yankees chances. I don’t want to talk about Wells.
they should have had wakefield pitch the HR derby…that would have made it a bit more interesting. cutting the time it took in half would be a good thing as well.
“My prediction tonight is tons of waxing poetic about Wakefield.”
Should be over early. If Wakefield pitches, it has to be to Mauer. No way Maddon lets him throw to Martinez.
swisher has a much higher obp & ops this year.not even close.
no way is rios worth over 40 million more over the length of their contracts than swish.
i keep swish.
Angels are fourth.
I would trade Melky for Rios
Cash is King,
Yes you do need a defensive metric to tell you who’s good and who’s bad. And incidentally, what you just said (“Swisher is not in the same class of outfielder that Rios has been in his career.”), the defensive metrics agree with. That isn’t even what we are talking about.
Notice how when I mention Rios’ defense I say “THIS YEAR”
Well let me say it for the third time. THIS YEAR Rios is a league average defender in RF. THIS YEAR Swisher is a league average defender in RF. Over their careers, you’re right Rios is much better.
So what does that tell you about Rios? Either he’s injured, just having an off year or is regressing defensively. It’s doubtful that he’s regressing so early so he’s probably injured or just having an unlucky year.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN
July 14th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Yaks is Yanks.
===============
Hmmmm, I may want to change my handle…
Swisher was a plus defender in Left the past 2 years. He is suspect in RF.
Patrick, sounds like our old argument of your over-valuing Swisher again. At least IMO.
Swisher is slow, a bad base runner, bad fielder, and no AVG.
Rios is a 5 tool player. Come again, bro.
Stultus-Just remember where you got it from.
The Red Sox need a bat, but Halladay would be more reliable than a bat for years to come.
===============
The Sox need to focus on breaking up the Mets core and getting Reyes or possibly Wright.
I’d lean to the unluckiness in the stat. Probably, as much as Gardner has been lucky in it.
The Mets core will noot be broken up. I’m stil not ruling out a nice second half run for the Metsie’s when their bats get healthy.
“And don’t give me the Buccholtz is being blocked by Penny/Smoltz bit.
They could trade Penny if they thought their young under control future ace tearing up AAA was ready to help the team. ”
This is what intrigues me.
Buchholz, talent wise, is IMO better than what Penny has been giving the Sox.
It doesn’t make sense to me that the Sox have only just now called him up and ostensibly to showcase him.
I know he’ll net you more in a trade, but if the Sox don’t see him as anything more than trade bait, then there’s something really, really wrong here.
noot is not.
Rios is a 5 tool player. Come again, bro.
—
If only he could use these tools in the game of baseball. At some point you can no longer consider a player 5 tools. Which I think Rios is past the point of. Rios has fluctuating power, hits for mediocore average, has no plate discipline, strikes out a lot, can run, has a good arm, and should be able to put up above average defense.
All in all, a starting RFer on a non contending team. Which is where he happens to be right now.
I don’t know that I’ve seen Swisher play LF for the Yankees. Maybe when Nady was playing right?
Hey on the Swisher vs. Rios thing? I think Rios is the better player. Amongst other things, Rios is a full-time player.
“Rios is a 5 tool player.”
And in a given season, you may see him using as many as three of them.
washburn has excellant numbers
112.1 innings-94 hits
2.96 era
1.09 whip
baa 2.25
his 6-6 record doesn’t look good but i think he would be perfect as our # 3 starter.
cc
burnett
washburn
pettitte
joba
wang.
we won’t have to give up as much & might be able to keep joba,hughes,montero,ajax.
Rebecca-Bucholz is a fascinating creature. Clearly he is not worth what we think he is, or he’d be up w/the big club.
maybe the Angels can finally beat boston in a playoff series if they get Halladay.
magnus,
Well to hear Gammons talk about it, they have the pieces to get it all done. Halladay + a bat + whatever.
GB7, Swisher reaches base with more frequency and hits for more power. Rios is the better all around player, but Swisher is better with the bat.
Swisher is a bit underrated.
But not that underrated.
Bucholz has gotten smoked every time up in the big leagues. No no not withstanding. He also has none of the age and injury excuses that Hughes and Joba have. His approach just doesnt work out in the big leagues because his fastball is so straight and he doesn’t hide it well. He has super plus offerings in his change up and curve, but that fastball gets absolutely hammered.
He is like AJ burnett with a worse fastball. If he can’t locate the curve then he is going down hard.
Thats why the Red Sox messed with his mechanics, they wanted to try and get his fastball to move more, get faster, get hidden better, but it didn’t work out.
“Rios is a 5 tool player. Come again, bro.”
All I ask is for those that disagree with me to look at the stats. I hate these generic statements like “Rios is a 5 tool player”, “Swisher is a 4th outfielder”, etc. LOOK AT THE STATS! READ MY POSTS!
I never said Rios is worse than Swisher. This year, he is worse than Swisher. Over their careers Rios is a much much better outfielder. They’ve both been up and down with the bat. Swisher sucked in 2008, Rios sucked in 2008 and 2009.
The whole point of this argument was to show that while Rios might have an edge, it’s closer than most think and the difference between the two players isn’t worth $42 million.
Try not to twist my words bro.
Swisher and Rios have almost identical OPS career wise. The other areas of their game is night and day.
Jerkface:
Interesting.
And the Sox think they can get Halladay for a package centered around him?
Then maybe we’re overthinking what the Yankees need to give up.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN
July 14th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
The Mets core will noot be broken up. I’m stil not ruling out a nice second half run for the Metsie’s when their bats get healthy.
=================
I don’t think the Mets are going anywhere (in the standings, that is). If everybody came back healthy on Friday, then I’d say maybe. But they are not. It’ll be one piece at a time over 2 months, that’s not enough.
One can dream that Minaya will jettison Wright and Reyes, can’t they?
Anybody-anybody at all-but Mon(s)tero.
bru –
Seattle is in this thing. No way they spin off Washburn.
Still a couple weeks to decide, but still, I don’t see it.
Stultus-I hate the Mets. But say they have all the pieces by mid August and are at most six games back of the division. Then I think they might have a run in them.
“I don’t think the Mets are going anywhere (in the standings, that is). If everybody came back healthy on Friday, then I’d say maybe. But they are not. It’ll be one piece at a time over 2 months, that’s not enough.”
It’s hard to count the Mets out because their division is so weak, but if Philadelphia gets some SP help it’s going to be really, really hard for them.
At any rate, unlike the Yankees, they would seem to have no real shot at the Wild Card, so it’s division or go home.
And the Sox think they can get Halladay for a package centered around him?
Then maybe we’re overthinking what the Yankees need to give up.
—
The Sox hype machine is just as good as the yankee hype machine, except they get the benefit of being plugged by ESPN.
Bucholz is a good prospect if you look at select games in the majors and look at his minor league record. Where the Yankees get shafted is that it seems like people weigh more on Hughes’ major league record than his minor league one (where he is infinitely better than Clay). Bucholz is a good guy to take a chance on and still a top pitching prospect, but out of Joba, Hughes, Clay I still put Clay at #3. And don’t get me started on Bard, Masterson, and Bowden. How those guys got put in the top spots is beyond me.
Jerkface,
That is interesting. We’ve been so focused on Hughes & Jobber that we’ve kind of forgotten about the fourth Beatle (Ian being the third).
Buccholz has been underground for quite a while, huh?
Buccholz still has value, tho. He’s their Hughes, no?
But it is interesting that the Sox chose to sign not one, but two veterans in lieu of giving him a shot.
I see where you are coming from Patrick, and the point is that you don’t want to make hasty trades that we’ll regret in the future. But, as I said, no GM would go off of half a season to pull the trigger on a trade straight up.
Rios won’t be on the block anyway. It’s Wells we would have to eat. I know you don’t want to give up Hughes or Chamberlain, but it’s always about now. Not hopefully in the future.
“Well let me say it for the third time. THIS YEAR Rios is a league average defender in RF. THIS YEAR Swisher is a league average defender in RF. Over their careers, you’re right Rios is much better.
So what does that tell you about Rios? Either he’s injured, just having an off year or is regressing defensively. It’s doubtful that he’s regressing so early so he’s probably injured or just having an unlucky year”
Or it tells you this is as good as Swisher is going to be and Rios has shown he can be and has the potential to be better…
“Thats why the Red Sox messed with his mechanics, they wanted to try and get his fastball to move more, get faster, get hidden better, but it didn’t work out”
Way I read it was that they’ve been working with him to stop pitching “backwards” and that it’s worked out pretty well over the winter and first half of this year. The true test of course is the bigs. We’ll have to see on that one.
OPS+
Swisher: 115
Rios: 92
UZR in RF:
Swisher: 1.8
Rios: 0.3
Contracts:
Swisher: 5 mil until 2011
Rios: 10 mil until 2014
“It’s Wells we would have to eat.”
I don’t see how anyone thinks this realistically happens. Would any team other than the Yankees “have to” consider taking Wells? NO! So the Yankees don’t need to take him to get a deal done either. They just need to provide the best package of players…
It seems like we’ve heard about Bucholz for too long w/o him being a real part of their team.
Why is that?
Hokie,
Yes but what does it say about Rios that he has regressed so severely in the field? Bad luck or something more serious?
Unless Rios regains his 2006-2007 form he’s not worth what he’s getting paid.
It’s not like getting Rios is a huge or even a significant upgrade over Swisher – especially the way he’s playing this year.
Age:
Swisher: 28
Rios: 28
And what is Bucholz’s age anyway?
It seems like we’ve heard about Bucholz for too long w/o him being a real part of their team.
Why is that?
—
Because once Hughes and Joba got national rep Red Sox NAtion needed their kid to get in the news as well. So everytime baseball tonight mentioned one or the other, Gammo would quip about BUcholz.
And while he was doing well in the minors he was a huge trade target, and still is.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN
July 14th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
“Rebecca-Bucholz is a fascinating creature. Clearly he is not worth what we think he is, or he’d be up w/the big club.”
Just a quick note that the Red Sox are bringing Bucholtz up to the big leagues and will likely be pitching the first game after the all star break.
Jerface.
Why are you down on Bard? He looks like his stuff is pretty ecectric thus far. Please advise if you have time.
-dennis
Jerkface: I try not to put too much stock in ESPN being a Pro-sox machine since my viewpoint is already biased, but if it really is that biased then something is seriously wrong.
Let’s not forget, Boston now has four teams all with a legitimate chance to win–Sox, Celtics, Bruins and Pats.
New York?
There are the Yankees and sometimes the Giants and Rangers, and if you want to stretch geographical boundaries, the Devils.
Meanwhile, the Jets, Islanders, Nets and Knicks have been something awful for a while, and the Mets have choked two years running.
For the number of teams the NYC area has, we should have more than just the one Super Bowl in the last five years.
Way I read it was that they’ve been working with him to stop pitching “backwards” and that it’s worked out pretty well over the winter and first half of this year. The true test of course is the bigs. We’ll have to see on that one.
—
Last time he was in the majors was when they had changed his mechanics but it didn’t work. I assume he is back to his old ways and they are just trying to alter his approach. I didn’t read what you read so this is just what I’m assuming.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN
July 14th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Stultus-I hate the Mets. But say they have all the pieces by mid August and are at most six games back of the division. Then I think they might have a run in them.
====================
With the way the Mets played the last two seasons?
More like “if they are six games back by mid-August, they’ll be 14 games out by the end of September.”
How’s that??
FWIW, Swisher’s contract is backloaded. I think he’s owed $10 mil in 2011.
“Just a quick note that the Red Sox are bringing Bucholtz up to the big leagues and will likely be pitching the first game after the all star break.”
Yes, and there are many who think that the move is just to showcase him for trade candidates. Do you or Dennis have another opinion? Would be interested in hearing it.
WFAN is talking about the best players in baseball.
Seems a little premature to include Longoria in the conversation to me. He’s got less than 700 ML ABs and a lifetime BA of .278 in that very small sample.
IMO, He’s a good looking player with lots of ptoential who needs a little more seasoning before you really know what he’ll grow up to be.
buchholz lost his confidence big time.
it had to be built back up.
getting hit hard in his next start might cause serious damage & lower his trade value.
if he might be used in a trade the rs are rolling the dice by bringing him up now.or he pitches well & increases his value in a trade or for the rs.
why do it?
Aww, ray’s a prospect hugger, too! Just keep your hand on your wallet.
Just kidding! We haven’t had a good Buccholz joke in a while.
How did the bruins do rebecca this year? CHOKE
This Halladay trade talk is really making me sick.
Everyone is so trigger-happy to land another superstar with an enormous contract.
You guys all speculate about Toronto dealing within the division. You are marvel that they would “let” Roy Halladay beat them for the next 3-5 years.
But you don’t consider the fact that we would be trading high-end young cost-controlled players within the division.
So Halladay may torture the Jays for a few years, but the Yankees could be facing Joba, Austin Jackson, Romine, etc. for the next 10-15 years.
And your roster is older, more expensive, and less flexible going forward.
Its 2011 and Joba is pitching a no-hitter against the Yankees. A Rod hits a shot to the gap and Austin Jackson robs him with a diving catch. And the rest of the league laughs at us.
The short-sightedness is nauseating on this blog. Sometimes Yankee fans make me sick. This is one of those times.
Seems like a showcase start IMO.
-dennis
Rebecca, I have both Rios and Swisher’s contract info right here.
Swisher:
$5.3 mil this year
$6.75 mil in 2010
$9 mil in 2011
$10.25 mil in 2012 with a $1 mil buyout.
Rios:
$5.9 mil this year
$9.7 mil in 2010
$12 mil in 2011
$12 mil in 2012
$12.5 mil in 2013
$12.5 mil in 2014
$13.5 mil in 2015 with a $1 mil buyout
miggs you are exactly right.
“And don’t get me started on Bard”
I don’t JF, from what I’ve seen Bard is a lot better than Melancon.
Bueller? Bueller?
Bucholtz next month I believe, will be 25 y/o.
Rebecca-Come on. NY over Boston.
Three legitimate champonship contenders in the Giants, Devils (how do you like the new head coach) and Yanks.
And that one Super Bowl was worth three. What a season.
“It’s not like getting Rios is a huge or even a significant upgrade over Swisher – especially the way he’s playing this year.”
No, but Halladay + Rios is certainly an upgrade over Joba + Swisher right?
Bill, your right. Same age. Rios is 4 months younger. But, a half a years stats means absolutely nothing.
“So Halladay may torture the Jays for a few years, but the Yankees could be facing Joba, Austin Jackson, Romine, etc. for the next 10-15 years.
And your roster is older, more expensive, and less flexible going forward.
Its 2011 and Joba is pitching a no-hitter against the Yankees. A Rod hits a shot to the gap and Austin Jackson robs him with a diving catch. And the rest of the league laughs at us.
The short-sightedness is nauseating on this blog. Sometimes Yankee fans make me sick. This is one of those times.”
I’d gladly endure the “torture” in 2011 if it means 2 or 3 more WS rings before that time.
Rebecca-NY has 3 legitimate championship contender in NJ (how do you like Jacques returning?), the Yanks, and the Giants.
And that Giants Super Bowl was worth two Super Bowls. What a season.
“No, but Halladay + Rios is certainly an upgrade over Joba + Swisher right? ”
Not necessarily. That’s a deceptive question because we are supposedly talking about Halladay + Rios versus Joba + Swisher + Jackson + Pena + Romine + Phelps.
The Jays benefit more from that deal, in my opinion.
Jerface.
Why are you down on Bard? He looks like his stuff is pretty ecectric thus far. Please advise if you have time.
-dennis
—
Bard isn’t a top prosect as a relief pitcher. He is a hard thrower with a decent secondary offering. He apparently gained control sometime last season and its carried into this season. I think he needs more time to see if he really worked out whatever was holding back his control.
I’d want to see more out of him before I get too excited. For example, I heard that the Red Sox might look to shop papelbon/get rid of him when he is a FA and have Bard assume his closers role.
And when I meant ‘as a top guy’, it was more for trade. You don’t structure a trade around Bard now that he is a relief prospect. Not a big one anyways. In the majors so far he has been good. His Walk rate isnt as good as it was when he got called up. And if it goes any higher then he is back to being what he was in the minors. A guy who would strike a lot of people out, and walk a lot of guys, which just isnt that valuable.
I don’t think he is ever going to be the sub 2 bb/9 guy that he was briefly in single A and AAA
The Red Sox basically jumped him up 3 levels in less than 100 IP and whats not noticed is his BB rate was 4.7 in AA after he looked like he corrected that problem in A.
THen he went to AAA and magically had it fixed again, so who knows.
Sorry fo the post of 2 different things saying the same thing.
Computer glitch.
It is interesting that Bucholtz’s start after the all star break will be against Toronto, but that is probably a coincidence.
I am inclined to agree with Dennis in that I would not be surprised if it is a showcase start, especially since right after the break the pitching would be well rested.
i would love to have bard over melancon
bard throws 100 miles an hr & is breathing down papelbons neck as the rs next closer.
this will give the rs leverage in contract talks with bard.
that is why imo pap said he would play for the yankees.
contract talks with pap i meant
I’d rather have a very high chance of winning the WS in the next 4-5 years before the Jeter-A-Rod-Mo-Posada core retires, than the off chance of these kids finding it all at the same time and winning a ring together and singing Kumbaya.
And it’s not like you’re burning the farm. The proposal SJ had earlier still leaves you with a lot of quality youth.
“How did the bruins do rebecca this year? CHOKE”
Better than my Devils or the Rangers or Islanders.
Wait till they come:
I kind of like Lemaire…a little worried about the trap, but hey, if you win I don’t really care. And he wins.
Patrick the Prospect Hugger:
In that case, Swisher >>>>>>> Rios.
Rios may have more potential upside, but he hasn’t shown it, he’s not THAT young, and that contract is one mother…
vb03-You are totally right.
miggs,
It’s just talk. Half of us aren’t serious anyway. Just talking fantasy baseball. But on a more serious note, Halladay is just the type of player you cash in your chips for. Very few would qualify imo. Opportunities like this don’t come around often, so I think the Yankees would have to give it some careful consideration.
As for the NESPN talk, the mother ship is located in Bristol, CT. So of course, they’re going to do as the Romans do. Their support staff is most likely local and so that’s where the vibe comes from, keeping the harmony and what not. I think the espn New England bias is not a conscious effort, but more of an organic result of being based in the heart of New England.
Is it possible Buchholz is pitching because the Sox want to know if they can afford to trade Penny before the deadline?
I forget the details of Penny’s contract, but if they can get a decent prospect for him and have confidence that Buchholz will perform just as well in the rotation this year, they would have to entertain moving Penny, no?
Jerkface.
Fair explanation as I aware of his career thus far as well.
Imagine what folks on this board would be saying about him if he was a Yankee the last few weeks?
Thanks for taking the to articluate yout thoughts. I appreciate it.
-dennis
And you’ve seen sooo much of Melancon so far.
miggs, that would be a nightmare. However, you can’t gaurantee any of it. I could give you a million scenarios that would be my own personal Yankees nightmare.
The yanks are win now. Always have been. They got money coming off the books also. What other position would you want to keep payroll flexibility for?
“And don’t get me started on Bard”
I don’t JF, from what I’ve seen Bard is a lot better than Melancon.
—
Melancon has been absolutely sick his entire career in the minors. Better control and command than Bard. Better HR rate. Better BB rate. Slightly higher H rate but still really good. He pitched 20 more innings than Bard did in 2008.
Its not translating to the majors for whatever reason. Thats baseball. They are both relief prospects so Melancon would have to be godly to be so much better than any other reliever, but I still feel like he will be the safer bet long term.
He has always shown control, ground ball rates, HR suppression, and strike outs.
Rebecca-Bruins did not do better. They made the playoffs and lost. So they went deeper. Big deal.
The Giants are gonna have a crappy passing game w/no legit WR’s, but they’ll be good thanks to their wicked defense and good running game. And defense wins championships.
The Devils will be fine.
Jerkface-I’m chalking it up to rookie nerves.
RS,
I doubt your scenario is true. You’re not going to make that kind of decision on one ML start by Buccholz in 2009.
They don’t know what they’re going to get out of Daisuke, so I think they hold onto Penny.
looks like francessa might get his wish
selig doesn’t like the fact that suspended players get to rehab in the minors before their suspention is up.
example being manny.
““No, but Halladay + Rios is certainly an upgrade over Joba + Swisher right? ”
Not necessarily. That’s a deceptive question because we are supposedly talking about Halladay + Rios versus Joba + Swisher + Jackson + Pena + Romine + Phelps.
The Jays benefit more from that deal, in my opinion.”
Depends on your definition of benefit…
They would if you’re willing to assume that with Rios and Halladay we won’t win the WS in the next 2 seasons AND Joba, Jackson, Pena Romine and Phelps all live up to their POTENTIAL….it’s possible that one or more of those young guys live up to their potential, but it’s just as possible and probably moreso that none of them do.
“Is it possible Buchholz is pitching because the Sox want to know if they can afford to trade Penny before the deadline?”
Since April 30, Penny = 3.79 ERA
I’d wonder whether they want to move him. Aside from a couple bombings in April, he’s been pretty good.
You’re Toronto and your best two packages are headlined by Joba and Buccholz. Which one do you take? Or do you ask Doc?
And that one Super Bowl was worth three. What a season
. Giants 08 did their best to try and redeem the city of NY for Yankees 04.
____________________________________________________________
I agree
“You’re Toronto and your best two packages are headlined by Joba and Buccholz. Which one do you take? Or do you ask Doc”
Depends on the balance of the package.
Btw, it’s funny to see how much as changed since the beginning of last season, regarding the Yankees and Red Sox’s top pitching prospects.
After ’07, Hughes was our future ace, Kennedy was going to be a legit #3 starter, and Joba was our set-up man.
Buchholz was the Sox’s future ace, and Lester was just slightly above average and expendable.
Now Kennedy has no future with the Yankees, Joba needs to go back to Scranton (according to some fans), and Hughes is our best reliever.
Buchholz, who was untouchable 2 years ago, reportedly is being showcased for a trade, and there’s probably no one in baseball who the Sox would trade Lester for.
vb03
July 14th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
I’d rather have a very high chance of winning the WS in the next 4-5 years before the Jeter-A-Rod-Mo-Posada core retires
—-
This is right on. The thought of Joba,Ajax and Romine beating us down the road is quite a threat but the thought of staying as is and benefitting from our youth after Jeter,Posada and Mo are gone and possibly not winning at all is worse to me.
We are in yr 1 of a 3 yr window to win with our vets plus Arod and that need is burning inside me.
And throwing hard doesnt always equal success. Look at David Aardsma. He can throw 100 mph. The cool thing about being a reliever, is that you get limited exposure so you can end up with a good season where you had a lot of hard hit outs that happened to find gloves.
Give me Melancon’s 92-95 mph with movement and hammer curve over Bard’s 100 mph ‘wheres it going?’ any day.
If Melancon’s psyche reports were true, in that he scored the highest possible on the yankees psyche eval, which meant he graded out as a future closer type, then he will succeed if given enough opportunity.
Mel,
But I bet if you took a poll 70%-80% of the readers on here would approve of a trade similar to what SJ44 proposed.
I’m sorry but there’s a reason media outlets poke fun and downgrade the Yankees every chance they can.
They’re a team full of overpriced superstars that are expected to win. When your payroll is almost twice as large as your nearest competitor it makes the games less fun IMO.
Now we have all these people begging to add on another huge contract (maybe two if you count Rios) and give up 4-5 high-end young players that could help this team win for the next 10-15 years.
What if they get Halladay and then don’t win? Now you’re down half of your top prospects, your team is older and more expensive, and you’re even farther away from a title because your team is old, expensive, and lacks the successful mix that wins championships.
But hey, we have 3 starters making 16+ million a year. That’s something to cheer about.
“The Giants are gonna have a crappy passing game w/no legit WR’s”
That remains to be seen. They have a lot of young talent at wide out.
Wait:
IF the Devils could still win the Atlantic without Broduer, I honestly have no worries about them.
Talk Jets on the radio, Ira from Staten Island always will call the show up. Like clockwork.
LaGreca talking Jets on 1050 ESPN radio, here’s Ira
Joe and Evan for 6 hours eeeeeeeesh enough already.
NYY626-That was the beautiful thing about that Superbowl. NY was lifted from the somthering veil over us from 04′.
Now if someone from Boston dares to mention the 04′ Red Sox just mention the 07′/08′ Giants and they’ll shut up.
““You’re Toronto and your best two packages are headlined by Joba and Buccholz. Which one do you take? Or do you ask Doc””
If it gets to that point it is, in fact, Doc’s choice.
miggs -
Keep your chin up – the blog doesn’t make the final decisions.
Trevor-I don’t like Hixon, but Smith and Nicks seem like thy’ll be all right. But I’m not expecting much from Nicks since he’s a rookie.
“NYY626-That was the beautiful thing about that Superbowl. NY was lifted from the somthering veil over us from 04?.
Now if someone from Boston dares to mention the 04? Red Sox just mention the 07?/08? Giants and they’ll shut up.”
The funny thing, is that I’m a Jets fan, but was rooting so hard for the Giants, because the Pats are our biggest rivals and we’re kind of just sick of them.
ALL of NY–even Bills fans–were Giants fans that weekend.
miggs,
75% would say yes because it’s Doc.
Lincecum? I wouldn’t do it.
Hernandez? I wouldn’t do it.
Beckett? No, thanks.
We’re talking Roy Halladay. That’s one deal breaker. The other? Hughes and Jesus.
miggs-your posts from last night regarding why the Halladay hoopla was bothering you. Totally agree. I thought they were great points.
Halladay is different from most players. I’d trade Romine, AJax, Hughes/Joba, for Halladay. Proven vs. unproven. Toronto may be getting a ton of stars. Or they may get four pretty crappy players.
The Yankees would be getting Halladay. And whether we win the WS w/him or not, he gives us the best chance of winning a WS.
I wouldn’t say IPK has no future with the Yankees. He is under their control and they will try to build him back up post-aneurysm. He was always projected to be a starter in the majors and if he bounces back okay he can still reach that potential. He would be pitching in NY right now were it not for the bad break he had this year, I think. Everyone overreacted negatively because of his stupid post game comments and the ridiculous hype that followed him and Phil into 2008.
too bad for the Mets Bernie Madoff took 500 million of Fred Wilpon’s dollars — Santana and Halladay would make for one dynamic duo.
Maybe the match isn’t there (though I would think Jose Reyes would interest the Jays, combined with every viable arm in the Mets’ system, of course), but it won’t happen now given the present financial landscape in Flushing.
“What if they get Halladay and then don’t win? Now you’re down half of your top prospects, your team is older and more expensive, and you’re even farther away from a title because your team is old, expensive, and lacks the successful mix that wins championships.
But hey, we have 3 starters making 16+ million a year. That’s something to cheer about.”
What’s the alternative? Surely you’re not suggesting that these prospects are all going to be stars and they’ll ALL be on the big league team in 2011.
Your team has a limited window to cash in its MAJOR offensive advantages at catcher, shortstop and third base, as well as at the closer end of the bullpen. You don’t find many windows like this to win. When those guys are gone, it will take MORE big contracts, or super prospects, to replace them. Yankees don’t have a super prospect anywhere near ML ready at SS and 3B, and closer is a toss-up.
The window to win is in the next 3-4 years. After that, the chances that the replacements for Jeter-A-Rod-Posada-Mo is even half as good as they are is remote at best. You lose this window, and its very, very tough to replace the lost production.
Jerkface
July 14th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Rios is a 5 tool player. Come again, bro.
—
If only he could use these tools in the game of baseball. At some point you can no longer consider a player 5 tools. Which I think Rios is past the point of. Rios has fluctuating power, hits for mediocore average, has no plate discipline, strikes out a lot, can run, has a good arm, and should be able to put up above average defense.
All in all, a starting RFer on a non contending team. Which is where he happens to be right now.
————————————————————
Strikes out a ton? The most he’s ever struck out is 112 times. That’s what Jeter averages in his career. Unless this season, be was a .290-.300 hitter. Certainly a lot less than Swisher. He’ll hit his share of homers, but, he’ll hit a lot of doubles and triples. He’ll steal bases on a team that steals bases. Toronto does not steal bases.
m-Hughes IMO is no dealbreaker.
And I’d make a similar trade for Linececum. Maybe I’d hold off AJax or Romine.
“miggs,
75% would say yes because it’s Doc.
Lincecum? I wouldn’t do it.
Hernandez? I wouldn’t do it.
Beckett? No, thanks.
We’re talking Roy Halladay. That’s one deal breaker. The other? Hughes and Jesus.’
I’d trade for Lincecum over Halladay. Hernandez, too. Both are much, much younger and still cost controlled.
Lincecum pitches on another level altogether.
vb03-I agree.
Andrew,
I know this is going to sound cliche, but I think Kennedy could be reintroduced to the majors as a reliever.
I think the Yankees should break in all their rookie pitchers this way.
They can control the environment, the pitchers learn to pitch aggressively, and there’s less pressure as they adapt to the big leagues.
Go look at Cot’s baseball contracts.
The Yankees are responsible for the top 5 most lucrative contracts in baseball history.
They also have 7 of the top 11 AAV contracts of all-time.
When is enough enough?
I’m sorry but I’d much rather root for Joba, Hughes, AJ, Montero etc. than another high priced mercenary sent to save the day.
And no I wouldn’t set my franchise back 5-10 years just to have a higher chance of winning in 2009. That’s the difference between me and most of you.
# Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus July 14th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
“miggs,
75% would say yes because it’s Doc.
Lincecum? I wouldn’t do it.
Hernandez? I wouldn’t do it.
Beckett? No, thanks.
We’re talking Roy Halladay. That’s one deal breaker. The other? Hughes and Jesus.’
I’d trade for Lincecum over Halladay. Hernandez, too. Both are much, much younger and still cost controlled.
Lincecum pitches on another level altogether.
————————–
QFT. The cost per win is much, MUCH lower for those two (lincecum/hernandez) and you can use the money to upgrade your team elsewhere.
Linececum is one of my favorite non Yankee players to watch.
But he pitches in the easier NL, so I don’t know how he’d do here. Halladay I do know.
miggs
the yankees payroll is inflated unfairly.
players,agents,etc take advantage of them because of who they are & their revenues.
yes they agreed to pay for players but the yankees get held hostage.
they also have the highest revenues by far.
i think the percentage they spend on payroll compared to the revenue they bring in is in line with most teams.
50 % or so of revenues on payroll maybe a little more
400 million with a 210 million dollar payroll.
the red sox
350 million or so with 120 million on payroll
last year i believe the red sox payroll was higher.
don’t know if the numbers are entirely correct but not that far off from past articles that i have read.
I don’t know much about Lincecum.
You guys are seriously telling me he’s better than Halladay?
One’s younger, the other’s established. Two 20-win seasons in the best division in all of baseball.
Picture this we go out and get Halladay, and our pen still sucks.
miggs-You’re right. I’d be perfectly willing to set the franchise back a few years to win this year.
But w/the Halladay deal I think our farm system is so loadedt hat even if we trade a bunchof these prospects we’d still have a pretty good farm.
guy on fan 5 best players ever
Babe
Cobb
Mays
Mickey
Tony Gwynn
Tony Gwynn, Tony Gwynn
“I’d trade for Lincecum over Halladay. Hernandez, too. Both are much, much younger and still cost controlled.
Lincecum pitches on another level altogether.”
Was just about to post the same thing.
Young ace pitchers are the most valuable things in baseball. Right now I’d take Lincecum and Hernandez over just about anyone.
miggs July 14th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Go look at Cot’s baseball contracts.
The Yankees are responsible for the top 5 most lucrative contracts in baseball history.
They also have 7 of the top 11 AAV contracts of all-time.
When is enough enough?
I’m sorry but I’d much rather root for Joba, Hughes, AJ, Montero etc. than another high priced mercenary sent to save the day.
And no I wouldn’t set my franchise back 5-10 years just to have a higher chance of winning in 2009. That’s the difference between me and most of you.
——————————
A higher chance of winning until the Big 4 retires is precious, because all four of them are HoF level at PREMIUM positions. This kind of positional advantage doesn’t grow on trees. It’s not just for 2009, but all the way until the Big 4 retires. Then you can rebuild all you want.
And if you’d rather lose for 3-4 years waiting for the prospects to develop (and in the meantime wasting the remaining years of the Big 4) than win for 3-4 years with Halladay, then I don’t know what to tell you.
Remember when we could have had Linececum for Matsui?
SCRANTON-Our pen doesn’t suck w/Aceves, Hughes, and Mo. You’re going by the Angels series where we had no Aceves.
it is like anything in life.
the more you make the more you spend.
if you are making a million a year are you going to live in a 1 bedroom apt?
not happening.
this goes for every person & business on this planet.
you spend because you can.
Okay, using Lincecum was a silly example on my part, because Halladay’s available and the two young aces aren’t.
“I don’t know much about Lincecum.
You guys are seriously telling me he’s better than Halladay?
One’s younger, the other’s established. Two 20-win seasons in the best division in all of baseball.”
Lincecum is the reigning NL Cy Young and Strike Out leader. He’s starting the All Star game for the NL. He struck out 265 last year and alread 149 this year with a 2.33 ERA.
5 best players ever IMO:
Ruth
Gehrig
Dimmagio
Mays
Mantle
Yes, 4 of 5 are Yankees. This is not an intended prejudice, but I happen to like researching baseball history. As a Yankee fan I’m most interested in Yankee history and so know about these particular players.
Ruth is ABSOLUTELY number one.
Another thing which boggles the mind…. Halladay is 32 years old. He’s not 25. Heck he’s not even 29 or 30.
You want to give up all those guys for a pitcher that, while great, is most likely going to enter the downside of his career in the next few years.
It just makes no sense.
when could we have gotten lincecum for matsui???
Going without Aceves for the Angels series cost the Yankees at least a game, maybe two because the offense definitely produced enough to win one or two of the first 2 games.
“I’d gladly endure the “torture” in 2011 if it means 2 or 3 more WS rings before that time.”
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that 3 more championships won’t be won in the Major Leagues before 2011…
Miggs: I agree with you. Winning all those years 1998-2000 ended up costing us the most recent dry run.
Another thing which boggles the mind…. Halladay is 32 years old. He’s not 25. Heck he’s not even 29 or 30.
You want to give up all those guys for a pitcher that, while great, is most likely going to enter the downside of his career in the next few years.
It just makes no sense.
_________
thats very sensible. hope cashman realizes it.
Tough to pick a top 5 of all time but mine would be:
Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Cobb, Dimaggio, Williams, Mantle, Gehrig
I just couldn’t stop typing
32 is not someone on their downside.
“when could we have gotten lincecum for matsui???”
Only the fans, bru, only the fans.
Rebecca,
Thanks. Those are just numbers to me.
Roy’s considered the best pitcher in baseball.
He does it in the AL East.
Lincecum does it in the NL. In the NL West, the worst division in baseball.
By all accounts Lincecum’s the real deal, but context is important to me.
And Lincecum’s not on the trading block.
Rebecca-Woould you give those championships back though?
I would not in a million years.
bru
July 14th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
when could we have gotten lincecum for matsui???
in the best of all possible worlds
“Lincecum is the reigning NL Cy Young and Strike Out leader. He’s starting the All Star game for the NL. He struck out 265 last year and alread 149 this year with a 2.33 ERA.”
I’ll take Halladay pitching in the AL, in the AL East, the best hitting division in all of baseball, over Lincecum’s strike outs in the NL West, the worst hitting division in all of baseball.
“Remember when we could have had Lincecum for Matsui”
That was just a rumor. I think the trade supposedly was Matsui for Sanchez and someone else.
But Toronto could of had him for Rios.
The trade proposals have been very enticing for Halladay, and SJ44, you certainly did your homework, as did Patrick the Prospect Hugger.
The biggest conflict for me, if I was the owner of the team, is that we are taking on an enormous contract for both Rios and Halladay, not to mention the CC type $$$$ Halladay would get in an extension. Based on our premium of 40% luxury tax we pay for salary above 162M it’s costing us big time. See link.
http://www.bizofbaseball.com/i.....;Itemid=41
I’m sorry but I don’t think this deal will happen, to get both Halladay and Rios, and to tell you the truth, if we did get both of their contracts, I’m not giving them Joba. Let them choose all minor league prospects!
IMHO, I do think Halladay is the best over 32 yo pitcher in baseball along with Chris Carpenter, when healthy. But I’d rather have Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Josh Johnson, Justin Verlander, to name a few, pitching for us for the next 10 years.
Miggs point about possibly strapping the teams flexibility moving forward is important.
Nice fodder for us, but IMO, if he’s traded, I hope it’s to the NL.
miggs July 14th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Another thing which boggles the mind…. Halladay is 32 years old. He’s not 25. Heck he’s not even 29 or 30.
You want to give up all those guys for a pitcher that, while great, is most likely going to enter the downside of his career in the next few years.
It just makes no sense.
—————————-
Only Joba hurts. The others all have their counterparts in the system right now, meaning they can be replaced. Jackson has DeLeon (sp?). Romine has Montero. Phelps has McAllister, Betances, etc – the Yankees are loaded with high potential RHP in the system.
If you’re unwilling to lose Joba for Halladay, then nothing can be done about that. But the farm is NOT being burnt by SJ’s proposal, which is a perfectly legitimate one.
bru
July 14th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
looks like francessa might get his wish
selig doesn’t like the fact that suspended players get to rehab in the minors before their suspention is up.
example being manny.
————————————————————
It really doesn’t matter what Selig wants. He won’t get it past the Union without giving up a significant amount in the next CBA. Something like getting rid of the Rule 4 Draft or allowing draft choices to be traded, and more. The Union is there to protect the big money, not the minor leaguers.
That proposed deal was not for Lincecum. The Giants wanted the Yanks to take Noah Lowry. Yanks wanted Cain, that was the end of it.
# Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus July 14th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Miggs: I agree with you. Winning all those years 1998-2000 ended up costing us the most recent dry run.
———————
And I wouldn’t trade those years for anything.
Lincecum hasnt even hit his veteran stride and he already has 3 CG SHOs under his belt, 5 CGs. Looks like he is going to be a guy that hits 220 IP every season.
Timmy is a beast
I’ve become convinced by now that money means absolutely nothing to the Yankees.
“it is like anything in life.
the more you make the more you spend.
if you are making a million a year are you going to live in a 1 bedroom apt?
not happening.
this goes for every person & business on this planet.
you spend because you can.”
That’s worked real well for the team the last 10 years hasn’t it? It just makes the franchise look like a bigger joke when they fall short.
IMO the more high priced superstars the more pressure to deliver. Then when it doesn’t happen the rest of the league laughs and collects their money from revenue sharing and luxury tax.
Newsflash…adding Halladay guarantees nothing. If the team hits like they hit the last 4 years in the playoffs, they’ll lose even if Halladay pitches every game.
A lineup of bloated contracts doesn’t get you anywhere. A mix of young and old, veterans and rookies, big contracts and guys playing for the minimum, and most importantly getting hot at the right time. THAT’S what wins championships.
Just look at the last 10 years.
Yankee fans just never learn. Its all about trying to buy another title. No matter what the consequences.
Imagine how sparkly Halladay’s ERA would be if he pitched in the NL West, and faced the pitcher 2-4 times per game?
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 14th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
I’ve become convinced by now that money means absolutely nothing to the Yankees.
————————-
They’re a worldwide brand making billions of dollars. They invest in their product. The more they earn by winning, the more they can funnel back into the product on the field.
So it’s only good business to keep winning year after year.
Jays couldn’t have had Lincecum for Rios. That was what the Jays wanted, but they could have had Cain for Rios. Giants haven’t put Lincecum in any talks for anybody.
There is no proof anywhere, you would “set the franchise back 5-10 years” if you packaged some of the kids for Halladay and/or Rios.
If you want the Yankees to carry fewer big contracts to make you feel more comfortable about rooting for them, that’s your opinions.
However, they carry big contracts because they can afford to and they want to win.
They have always been a high payroll team under Steinbrenner.
The belief that everyone of these kids is going to be a star is very, very farfetched. Some will, some won’t.
Since 1990, you can count on one hand, and have fingers remaining, the number of “kids” the Yankees traded for veteran players that turned into stars.
That’s one strength the organization has had for almost 20 years.
I don’t care if the franchise looks like a “joke”. I like that they give us the best chance to win every year.
FA’s worked well in 77/78 didn’t they?
“I’ll take Halladay pitching in the AL, in the AL East, the best hitting division in all of baseball, over Lincecum’s strike outs in the NL West, the worst hitting division in all of baseball.”
Lincecum pitched a CG 2 hit shutout against the Cardinals the end of June and is 25 years old, and heading for another CY Young. To me, he’s the right handed version of Ron Guidry in his prime, pound for pound, and is the best pitcher in baseball!
Oops. Forget to mention Doc’s ERA is sub-3.
No, I wouldn’t trade those Championship Years for anything and I should have probably said so…
But I don’t think the needed to have come at the price of the last five years.
Anywho,
Rebecca,
Thanks. Those are just numbers to me.
Roy’s considered the best pitcher in baseball.
He does it in the AL East.
Lincecum does it in the NL. In the NL West, the worst division in baseball.
By all accounts Lincecum’s the real deal, but context is important to me.
And Lincecum’s not on the trading block.
”
I think you guys don’t give the NL West enough credit. I know the division is bad–though it’s much better this year–but to put up his numbers, you have to be a damned good pitcher.
“Yankee fans just never learn. Its all about trying to buy another title. No matter what the consequences.”
—————————————-
Tell that to the 97 Marlins, the 01 D-Backs, and the 04 and 07 Red Sox. All of whom used deep pockets to their advantage.
Wait till they come to our house again- I dont trust anyone past Hughes Mo and Ace. If our starters can give us some distance thats fine and dandy, the problem is they don’t.
it is like anything in life.
the more you make the more you spend.
if you are making a million a year are you going to live in a 1 bedroom apt?
================
If you are in NYC, yes.
You can find some pricey 1 bedrooms!
“5 best players ever IMO:
Ruth
Gehrig
Dimmagio
Mays
Mantle”
I agree with your first 4, but, looking at it objectively, I think there are a lot of players you could put over Mantle. Dimaggio too, probably, since he played for such a relatively short time, even though it pains me to say, since he is my all-time favorite.
Rebecca-IDK. Can you imagine those championship years going any differently, and still having great teams now?
Getting Halladay doesn’t guarantee anything.
They don’t play the games on paper. They’d still have to go out there and win.
“Tell that to the 97 Marlins, the 01 D-Backs, and the 04 and 07 Red Sox. All of whom used deep pockets to their advantage.”
Ok let me get this straight…. you’re using the Marlins as an example of a team using deep pockets?
Now you lost me.
m
July 14th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Imagine how sparkly Halladay’s ERA would be if he pitched in the NL West, and faced the pitcher 2-4 times per game?
==============
Sparkly ERA but no 20-win seasons.
Mark-It’s all about the LEGEND of Mantle.
Mantle put up some of the best numbers of all time and his health was horrible. Any other player would have had his career destroyed by injuries. But not Mantle. Despite being taped up like a mummy under his uniform, he STILL put up great numbers.
And Joe D’s numbers and the way he just carried his teams (and they were good teams) just make me have to put him on the list.
“Tell that to the 97 Marlins, the 01 D-Backs, and the 04 and 07 Red Sox. All of whom used deep pockets to their advantage.”
Good point. However, trying to buy a title and fail, as the Yankees did from ’02-’08, and failing < trying to buy a title and actually getting it.
miggs July 14th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
“Tell that to the 97 Marlins, the 01 D-Backs, and the 04 and 07 Red Sox. All of whom used deep pockets to their advantage.”
Ok let me get this straight…. you’re using the Marlins as an example of a team using deep pockets?
Now you lost me.
—————————–
Did you forget 1997, where they hired a bunch of mercenaries to win a World Series? I bet their fans didn’t have a problem with that, even when they blew up the whole team after the season.
Franco-You’re right.
But it gives us the best chance to win for the next 2-3 years.
Wait:
Hmm. The missing draft picks, perhaps? Not drafting well/developing the farm system killed us till we really got back to it recently.
The ’97 Marlins went all out signing mercenaries to try to win the title, and succeeded. Because they don’t have deep pockets, or didn’t want to keep spending, they got rid of everybody in the offseason. Kevin Brown, Sheffield, Leiter, Charles Johnson, etc, all had relatively high contracts for the time.
Yankee Trader
July 14th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
“I’ll take Halladay pitching in the AL, in the AL East, the best hitting division in all of baseball, over Lincecum’s strike outs in the NL West, the worst hitting division in all of baseball.”
Lincecum pitched a CG 2 hit shutout against the Cardinals the end of June and is 25 years old, and heading for another CY Young. To me, he’s the right handed version of Ron Guidry in his prime, pound for pound, and is the best pitcher in baseball!
————————————————————
As good/outstanding as Lincecum has been for the last two years, I’d have concerns about that delivery allowing him to hold up over the next 3-4 years, if that. He reminds me very much of a young John Smoltz or Texas’ Roger Pavlik (early ’90s) in delivery…but, it was that same violent delivery that caused their arm problems (especially in the shoulder).
Rebecca,
LOL. I’m not saying Lincecum’s not the fa-shizzle.
I don’t think people are giving Doc enough credit for how well he’s pitched in the AL East. Where you face guys like:
Jeter
Damon
Alex
Tex
Hideki
Posada
*ortiz
Pedroia
Youkilis
Bay
Drew
Carlos Pena
Longoria
Upton
markakis
Jones
Huff
and a few more players I’ve probably forgotten, but are probably up there in the offensive categories.
And Doc doesn’t face pitchers in division games.
2 time 20 game winner with a team that’s not exactly an offensive juggernaut.
Miggs:
1997 Marlins had a $100M plus payroll, and for the most part, the players to match. They won the title and sold it all of the next year.
The pen sucked because our starters only went 4-5 innings the first 2 games.
I have a big problem with losing the positional advantage we have at C, SS, 3B and closer over the next 3-4 years by not giving the team the best chance to win a ring in this time period. If we didn’t have such a limited window to win, it would not have been such a big deal not to land the best pitcher in the AL.
But the circumstances of your roster as currently constructed dictates that you should take advantage of this window while you can.
There is no guarantee they will win with kids either. That’s why its not an easy decision.
In fact, if you look at the teams in the last 15 years, the Yankees have always had a balance of homegrown, trades and free agents on the roster.
They traded for David Cone when they needed a front of the rotation starter. He was 32 when they traded for him. Roger Clemens was 37 when they traded for him.. They signed Jimmy Key when he was a FA.
This is how the Yankees do business. If you want them to just have an “all-kid” lineup, you are going to be disappointed. Its never happened in 37 years under the Steinbrenner family and it never will.
People on here overvalue every Yankee prospect that gets mentioned in trade conversations.
They all aren’t going to be stars folks. They all aren’t going to live up to the hype and expectations.
Remember Jose Tabata? He was going to be the next big thing. He’s now hitting .260 with no power in AA.
In fact, if you take the odds of success of every team’s Top 20 prospects in baseball, 2 out of the 20 ever make it to be an above average contributor on a major league roster for 3 or more years. Those are pretty lean odds.
That’s why the teams that are in “all kid mode, all the time”, rarely win anything and when they do, they can’t sustain it because they don’t want to pay rising salaries as their young players garner more service time.
Miggs-
In response to your “If you’re making 1 Million a year are you going to live in a 1 bedroom apartment?”
Her’s a great joke I received by e-mail today, to relieve the tension about how can the Yankees get better to go to the WS.
Older Women Are So Reasonable:
After being married for 44 years, I took a careful look at my wife
one day and said, “Forty-four years ago we had a cheap apartment, a
cheap car, slept on a sofa-bed and watched a 10-inch black and white TV,
but I got to sleep every night with a hot 25 year old girl”.
“Now I have a $1,500,000 home, a $45,000 car, a nice big bed and plasma
screen TV, but I’m sleeping with a 69 year-old woman. It seems to me
that you’re not holding up your side of things.”
My wife is a very reasonable woman: She told me to go out and find a
hot 25 year-old girl and she would make sure that I would once again be
living in a cheap apartment, driving a cheap car, sleeping on a sofa-bed
and watching a 10-inch black and white TV.
Aren’t older women great? They really know how to solve your mid-life
crises!!
“The belief that everyone of these kids is going to be a star is very, very farfetched. Some will, some won’t.”
SJ – really good point. I think of someone like Eric Duncan who was “untouchable” and “the next big star” and is still in the minor leagues and hasn’t developed up to expectations.
“There is no proof anywhere, you would “set the franchise back 5-10 years” if you packaged some of the kids for Halladay and/or Rios.”
Of course there’s no “proof”. I’m not Nostradamus.
What I do possess, however, is common sense. And taking on the contracts of Rios and Halladay (plus his extension) will severly hinder the team in terms of future payroll flexibility.
It also makes the team older when its trying to get younger, strips them of some of their top near-ready prospects, and again guarantees them nothing.
I would go so far as to say if they make the trade and DON’T win its a huge setback.
Again, no “proof” to be had. Just some common sense.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 14th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Franco-You’re right.
But it gives us the best chance to win for the next 2-3 years.
————-
You don’t know that.
Halladay is one man.
Joba or Hughes, Montero, and Jackson are probably all going to be part of the young core within the next two years.
And they all cost pennies on the dollar compared to Halladay and Rios or Wells.
I really don’t know why some of you are Yankee fans. Seriously.
You want this team to have financial flexibility, low payroll and homegrown little gumdrops all over the diamond?
How did you become a fan of this team?
I seriously don’t get it.
The Yankees even when they were a dynasty had a high payroll and a roster or established stars acquired by trade and free agency and homegrown talent.
Some of you have really drank the ESPN Kool Aid that it doesn’t count if you don’t do it thrifty.
Here’s a newflash for you; It does count. If the Yankees win the WS with the highest payroll in the baseball history no one is taking it away from them.
If you feel shame rooting for a team that actually takes its profits and puts them into the players and keeps franchise heroes in uniform and pays them well for it, then please go root for another team.
You shouldn’t be Yankee fans.
Go root for the Pirates. Or KC.
The Yankees will never be your local backyard club of lovable plucky boys.
If you want them to be, you are completely unrealistic.
What’s good about player development is when a guy like Halladay hits the market now, we actually have a chance to deal for him.
We’ll keep developing and signing prospects and this team will continue to do well because the owners pay and invest for it.
Rebecca-Yeah, but I wouldn’t risk losing those championships by doing the things you suggest. As thigs worked out, we got four championships out of those years. Mess w/it, and we have no gurantee how it turns out.
Yankee Trader-
When my mother used to catch my father looking at younger women, she never got mad. Instead she would say, “Would you like me to take a picture for you? It would last longer”.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN,
I am not disagreeing with you, just kind of playing devil’s advocate. Putting all steroid talk and everything else aside, though, wrap your mind around this: Arod has more 100 run, 100 RBI, 35+ HR seasons than HOF power hitters Reggie Jackson and The Mick COMBINED!
Franco-”You don’t know that”
Exactly.
I’ll take a sure thing like Halladay over unrpoven kids who may or may not end up being part of the core in the next few years.
SJ,
The Yanks are never going to be in “all kid mode” anyways with guys named Teixeira, Sabathia, Jeter, A-Rod, and Burnett already on the roster.
Roy Halladay guaruntees having a better starting rotation than we do now.
Halladay
Sabathia
Burnett
Wang (if he ever comes back healthy)
Pettitte
G. Love July 14th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
I really don’t know why some of you are Yankee fans. Seriously.
You want this team to have financial flexibility, low payroll and homegrown little gumdrops all over the diamond?
How did you become a fan of this team?
I seriously don’t get it.
———————
QFT. It’s like the 96-00 teams were all homegrown. It’s too much prospect love.
Mark-I don’t put Reggie w/the best players EVER.
And like I said, it’s all about the legend of Mickey Mantle.
m, This goes back to your comment about IPK being reintroduced out of the pen: I would say that it makes sense given how good Hughes has been and how much good it has done for him this year to be a reliever. The only downside is that Kennedy doesn’t have the same kind of arm as Phil, so him in relief translates more to an Aceves-like swingman without as much of a refined arsenal of secondary pitches. That may or may not work, especially since he was so hittable partly because he only had two pitches he relied on (fastball + change), but then again Eddie Ramirez had a nice run throwing just a fastball and a disappearing change…so it’s possible.
However, it does make the most sense in terms of re-establishing him positively at the ML level. Probably won’t happen until 2010 though considering he isn’t back to pitching at all yet, as far as I know.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 14th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Franco-”You don’t know that”
Exactly.
I’ll take a sure thing like Halladay over unrpoven kids who may or may not end up being part of the core in the next few years.
————-
Bernie Williams, Posada, Jeter, Pettitte, and Mo were all unproven kids at some point as well.
Franco-Yes they were. What are the odds that we’ll get players like them from our prospects again?
Far lower than the odds of Halladay helping us win a WS.
Did I ever say anything about wanting an “all-kids” lineup?
Why don’t you go actually read my posts before spouting this nonsense.
What I wrote was the best chance they have is with a good mix. I’m not going to retype my whole post because you can’t read.
What doesn’t win is a team of overpriced softies. That’s been made clear these past 10 years, or have you not been watching?
Giuseppe Franco July 14th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 14th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Franco-”You don’t know that”
Exactly.
I’ll take a sure thing like Halladay over unrpoven kids who may or may not end up being part of the core in the next few years.
————-
Bernie Williams, Posada, Jeter, Pettitte, and Mo were all unproven kids at some point as well.
———
I suppose it’s because they developed in the early to mid 90′s, when “World Series or bust” was not the Yankee mantra as of yet. So they had the time to take their lumps in the majors and not have everyone breathing down their neck.
As for the current argument, I advocate trading for Halladay mainly because the positional advantages we have will not last much longer, not because I hate homegrown talent or whatever.
Since when were a lot of these players softies?
miggs July 14th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Did I ever say anything about wanting an “all-kids” lineup?
Why don’t you go actually read my posts before spouting this nonsense.
What I wrote was the best chance they have is with a good mix. I’m not going to retype my whole post because you can’t read.
What doesn’t win is a team of overpriced softies. That’s been made clear these past 10 years, or have you not been watching?
—————
So who’s an overpriced softie? Halladay? A-Rod? Jeter? He’s overpriced too, you know.
vb03-”Yes they were. What are the odds that we’ll get players like them from our prospects again?
Far lower than the odds of Halladay helping us win a WS.”
So Halladay may torture the Jays for a few years, but the Yankees could be facing Joba, Austin Jackson, Romine, etc. for the next 10-15 years.
And your roster is older, more expensive, and less flexible going forward.
Its 2011 and Joba is pitching a no-hitter against the Yankees. A Rod hits a shot to the gap and Austin Jackson robs him with a diving catch. And the rest of the league laughs at us.
======
Uh-huh.
Hold onto the youngsters. If you want to add a legit arm in the future, go for youth: King Felix will be 25 in 2011 – the year he goes on the market.
How about it – Joba, Hughes, CC, King Felix? And we get to keep AJax and Montero…
Take Rios out of the deal and go get Doc if it makes you feel better.
Fact is, you are acting as if the Yankees have to run their franchise like a small market team because you, “don’t like mercenaries”.
Really? When have the Yankees NOT signed free agents? When have they NOT tried to upgrade the team?
This is what they do. They built a Dynasty with this mix.
Do you its going to be “noble” of them if they just stand pat at the deadline? Do you think they get extra credit points if they “keep the kids” and not make the playoffs this year?
Their business model is built on making the playoffs. That’s their bottom line. Not making ESPN or Baseball America happy.
That’s why they spent over 800 million in contracts the last few off-seasons.
I might add, the Red Sox are the same way. Go back and see how much money they spent in the off-season the last time they didn’t make the playoffs.
This is what big market baseball teams do.
If that form of doing business repulses people, the Pirates are always looking for new fans.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 14th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Franco-Yes they were. What are the odds that we’ll get players like them from our prospects again?
Far lower than the odds of Halladay helping us win a WS.
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Um yeah. Whatever you say.
The Yanks don’t have to develop the next generation of Hall of Famers to be very useful and the core of this team.
In case you haven’t noticed, the Yanks aren’t getting any younger. They are an old team. They need to get younger and players like Jackson, Montero, Joba, and Hughes are enormously important cogs for them.
I don’t put Reggie there either, I was using that as a basis of comparison for Arod’s #s. Players who I might put in there @ #5 all time- Aaron, Ted Williams, Cobb, also Jimmie Foxx had a lot of Mantle-type issues as well and put up huge numbers. But, as a Yankee fan, I don’t mind Mantle as no. 5.
Franco-What is with yoiur ridiculously condescending attitude?
Halladay is proven to be an unbelievable pitcher.
Those kids have proven nothing (and I want to keep Montero).
You don’t know if an ofthem will be any good. You more or less know Halladay will be great. And he gives us the best chance for a WS.
Honestly, I’d rather the Yankees hang onto their youth and flex their financial might in free agency instead, like they did in the offseason.
However, a pitcher like Roy Halladay isn’t on the market often, the Yankees have a deep farm that won’t get ravaged if they make a deal, AND they have the financial might to pay him.
And finally, they have a rapidly closing championship window.
It’s the perfect storm.
Mark-Foxx, Teddy Ballgame, Cobb, and Aaron had issues (as did Dimmaggio) but none had the issues that Mantle had. His body was practically dstroyed by injuries.
“That’s why they spent over 800 million in contracts the last few off-seasons.
I might add, the Red Sox are the same way. Go back and see how much money they spent in the off-season the last time they didn’t make the playoffs.
This is what big market baseball teams do.
If that form of doing business repulses people, the Pirates are always looking for new fans.
”
You’re joking, right? You can’t possibly be serious. I’m as big a fan as anyone. I want to win as badly as anyone. But that certainly doesn’t mean I want to buy or trade for every big name that becomes available.
The Yankees have almost double the 2nd largest payroll in the league. They’ve gotten SQUAT for that the last 10 years. Sorry if me wanting to go in a slightly different direction make you think I’m less of a fan.
If that makes me a Pirate fan, so be it.
Or they may not “torture” the Yankees for the next 10-15 years.
That’s my point about people overvaluing prospects.
The odds are, most of them won’t have 10-15 year big league careers.
I can read fine Miggs. You have this belief that adding any more veteran players is a bad thing. I don’t.
Don’t compare the last few Yankee teams with one. That’s as insane as trying to sell all of these kids will be stars.
This team isn’t soft. It is however of need for more pitching.
They have a chance to win the World Series this year if they can upgrade the staff. IMO, they don’t if they stand pat.
If you have a chance to go for it, you go for it because winning trumpets development every single time.
Last year’s team wasn’t nearly as good as this one. A big, big difference.
New thread.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 14th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Franco-What is with yoiur ridiculously condescending attitude?
Halladay is proven to be an unbelievable pitcher.
Those kids have proven nothing (and I want to keep Montero).
You don’t know if an ofthem will be any good. You more or less know Halladay will be great. And he gives us the best chance for a WS.
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My primary point was that getting Halladay doesn’t guarantee anything and you had the urge to jump in and tell me how it makes the team better over the short term.
You can tell me what Halladay is and what he isn’t but you’re not going to change my mind.
I can think for myself.
BTW, it’s important to point out that Cashman isn’t likely to make this deal for the same reason those of us are not willing to pay such a high price for Halladay.
SJ44-
If I’m correct, luxury tax kicked in, in 2002, and granted hasn’t affected the way Yankees did business from then on out, much like they always did-trying to put the best team on the field with the revenue stream coming in.
No-one here has an inkling yet what the Yankees net revenue gain will be for 2009, especially in this economy.
Again I doubt the Yankees take on Rios and Halladay plus some 80M, in your proposed, well thought out, deal.
Maybe a deal get’s done for just Halladay and the rest of his 1 1/2 year contract, but unless you can unload some more salary, than just Swisher I don’t forsee us taking on Rios too. Do you want to give them Damon and the rest of his 6.5M [13M] salary, if Damon even agreed to be traded.
Franco-Whatever you say.
But you stated your opinions, so I stated mine.
OK I never said all the kids will become stars.
I’m actually quite sure they all won’t.
But some of them will. And they’ll still be playing when Halladay has been in retirement for 5 years.
What do you mean they haven’t done “squat” the last 10 years? Are you serious?
They have made the post-season every year except last year since 1995.
They haven’t won a WS since 2000 but, I would hardly say they haven’t done “squat” the last 10 years.
There is more of a chance they do “squat” if they hold onto all the prospects since the odds are not all of them are as good as the hype.
Me? I like having prospect depth so you can get veteran players that make you better. It worked with Cone, Clemens, Justice, O’Neill, Brosius, etc.
Guys who helped this team win rings. That’s the goal of the Yankees. Not to win Propsect of the Year Awards.
Ironically, the organization is so deep with prospects right now, they can make my proposed deal and have guys as good or better still in the system.
That’s how you run a farm system for a major market team.
Since WWII or before, Yankee home grown products that made a significant difference is probably around 40%. In other words, only 10 of the 25 man roster that contributes much of anything to the team’s success. Some of the biggest contributors came from other teams. The homegrown percentage may even be lower. NYY has since the days of Babe Ruth have almost always had the highest payroll.
GB7
And Babe Ruth was not home grown.
What I mean by that is if they didn’t win a championship it was not considered a successful year, correct?
Maybe “squat” was the wrong word but you get my point.
I’m not a prospect hugger. I never have been.
But IMO giving up your top OF prospect, one of your top young starting pitchers, a promising catching prospect, PLUS another 1 or 2 prospects for a 32 year old pitcher who will require an enormous contract for another 5-6 years is a bad deal.
Whether you include Rios or not.
Doreen-Darn Red Sock, he wasn’t a real Yankee.
Doreen
July 14th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
GB7
And Babe Ruth was not home grown.
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And, neither was Joe DiMaggio. He came straight from “The Streets Of San Francisco”. He was a traded for FA, bought from the SF Seals for cash and players, plus, NY had to let him play for SF for one year so that team got the revenue from DiMaggio fans.
Still, Dimmaggio unlike Ruth didn’t get really famous until he got to NY.
I guess you could say Mantle was the best homegrown Yankee (Gehrig was plucked right out of college I think).
a trade for halladay not involving hughes or montero?
cano/joba
joba/ajax/+ others
I would trade Hughes.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN
July 14th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Still, Dimmaggio unlike Ruth didn’t get really famous until he got to NY.
I guess you could say Mantle was the best homegrown Yankee (Gehrig was plucked right out of college I think).
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Everybody in baseball knew who DiMaggio was while he was playing in SF and he was probably better know on the West Coast than almost any major leaguer. Ruth was not only one of the top 3 pitchers of his time, but, the top single season home run hitter in history….before becoming a Yankee.
“So Halladay may torture the Jays for a few years, but the Yankees could be facing Joba, Austin Jackson, Romine, etc. for the next 10-15 years.
And your roster is older, more expensive, and less flexible going forward.
Its 2011 and Joba is pitching a no-hitter against the Yankees. A Rod hits a shot to the gap and Austin Jackson robs him with a diving catch. And the rest of the league laughs at us.”
Its 2008-2010 and the halladay/sabathia are pitching complete game shut outs while the yankees win the world series.
2011 comes and hughes is battling joba, each pitching a no-hitter against the jays. ajax snags a-rods fly ball, but he cannot catch montero or cano’s, depending on who we keep, home run blast to deep center field.
i am not so sure the league would be laughing at us. you are under estimating halladay’s value over the next 3 years and just assuming that yankees can not draft well and just come up with more prospects.
if yankees have a chance for halladay, you take it
GB7
I did not know that about Joe D.
I wish I had more energy. I’d go back and look at the roster moves teh Yankees made in the last 90′s and early 2000′s. Every year they do something to boost the team. Sometimes it’s big, sometimes it’s small. I’d also love to look up and see what farmhands they gave up that became big players.
I am finding it quite interesting, though, how at hte beginning of this season, it seemed “everyone” (you, know, “they”) said the Yankees were not deep, that they had a poor farm system, especially where position players are concerned.
Now, I’m not saying they are packed, but it sure seems like they have more than anyone originally thought. Maybe not almost ready for prime time, but almost almost ready for prime time. I mean, who could imagine that if they wanted to they could put together a deal for Halladay with 5 or 6 prospects plus Joba and/or Hughes who are home grown? And still have players left to develop?
One thing that I am thinking of is I remember last year having the conversation with either you or SJ or both that it seemed like it would be possible to have a core of players who come through the system together, basically intact – much like Pettitte, Mo, Jeter and Posada. Is that still a possibility? From what I’ve read in passing it seems like some of those young kids are having setbacks, some are advancing fine, but I kind of lost track of whether there is still a “core,” so to speak?
I think it’s possible to develop your minor leaguers, keep some and trade some and have the best of both worlds. Even if your youth goes onto succeed with whoever you traded with, as long as what you got gave you what you wanted, isn’t that a coup, as well? That a player you developed and scouted did succeed, even if it was for someone else?
Maybe I’m too big picture, and maybe I realize that you can do only so much and then sometimes lady luck takes over — for someone else!!!
GreenBeret7-West Coast. NY media is what the majority of the country is seeing.
Ruth was an increeible Red Sock, but a ridiculous, otherworldy Yankee.
Doreen
July 14th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
GB7
I did not know that about Joe D.
I wish I had more energy. I’d go back and look at the roster moves teh Yankees made in the last 90’s and early 2000’s. Every year they do something to boost the team. Sometimes it’s big, sometimes it’s small. I’d also love to look up and see what farmhands they gave up that became big players.
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DiMaggio was quite a young player. During the early depression years, the Seals were offered as much as 5 players and 350,000 dollars by a ML team and were turned down, mostly because DiMaggiodidn’t want to go because he was making more money in the PCL. During the ’34 season, he tore up his knee and teams dropped him as an acquisition. Tony Lazzari, Lefty Gomez and Frankie Crosetti told Ed Barrow to get him at any cost and not worry about the injury. Those three players were big name stars on the Yanks and they all lived in the same neighborhood as DiMaggio. They also tried to get them to sign Vince DiMaggio, but, NYY didn’t get him.
Doreen, over these 100 years of Yankee baseballs, some of the greatest of the Yankee players came from somewhere other than the team system. From the mid-60s to the Steinbrenner era, CBS only brought in washed up players because they were cheap. That started changing around ’68/’69 when they started thinking about selling the team and they no longer had the drawing cards of Mantle and Ford. Hard as it is to believe, the Yanks actually left Mantle exposed to the ’69 expansion draft. Mantle told the Pilots not to draft him because he’d retire first. Mantle as a seattle Pilot would have crushed Yankee fans.
Steinbrenner also let the Yanks go to seed in the late ’80s and early ’90s, much of it was because he was almost broke. That’s when Steinbrenner became steinbrenner and took over marketing the team like no other owner ever has…negotiating his one radio/tv contracts, concessions. If baseball had let Steinbrenner do that for the entire MLB, teams like Oakland and Montreal earlier and Florida and Tampa later would not have been in the mess they were.
What is wrong wit thw blog
If the Yankees take on Rios in the deal and dumping Swisher, the 42 million dollar difference is spread out over 7 years including 2009. 2009 – 2015 and 42 million translates to 6 mil per season for Rios.
So I wouldn’t let Rios be the hangup in a Halladay + Rios deal for Joba, AJAX, Romine, Pena + Swisher.
If anyone questions that Rios is far superior to Swisher, I say watch them play. Rios keeps so many runners from advancing to every base that it saves a great many runs. He saves more bases in a series than Swisher does in a season. I don’t see how defensive metrics can assess that. I only see him against the Yankees, but he is a heck of an OF with a great arm.
I would love to get Halliday, but I really believe the Yankees can not significantly increase their payroll. That is why Cashman looks at the scrap heap. I think he will keep looking there at the Ian Snell types.
I was pondering Swisher, and I began thinking about OPS. I think other factors need to be entered into to get a real player value. For example, I would add a stolen base base to caught stealing differential. It is every bit as important as the base a walk gets you. On that note, a walk is not the equivialent of a single with runners on. I think bases a better advance a runner should be somehow accounted for. A single moving a runner for from to third is much more valuable than a walk, but the player who walks twenty more times and singles twently less times is not as valuable.
Its 2011 and Joba is pitching a no-hitter against the Yankees. A Rod hits a shot to the gap and Austin Jackson robs him with a diving catch. And the rest of the league laughs at us.
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you forgot to mention that the ball would have been a homerun if not for arod’s 2 massive world series rings he won with the yankees in 2009 and 2010 (thanks in part to halladay) weighing his swing down…
Please Jeter no GDIP OR STRIKE OUT!1
Lincecum hehehe!!