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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


How to get Roy Halladay

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jul 15, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

roy-halladayDisclaimer: This blog post is based purely on my own opinion. I have not been told in any way, shape or form that this trade will actually happen or that the Yankees are pursuing a trade at all. Please do not link to this post like it’s news. It’s not.)

Derek Jeter is having one of the best seasons of his career. Jorge Posada is somehow still one of the game’s best catchers at the age of 37 and Mariano Rivera is as great as ever.

The point is that these three key Yankees are still championship-caliber players in 2009. Will that be the case in 2010 or 2011? None of us know that.

The Yankees can win right now and I’m not so sure they have the pitching to do that. Joba Chamberlain and Andy Pettitte are far more erratic than anticipated and the No. 5 starter looks like rehab case Sergio Mitre.

The Yankees have used their bullpen for 283.1 innings already. Only three bad teams — Baltimore, Oakland and Cleveland — have used their bullpens more often in the American League. It’s a recipe for disaster.

Obtaining Roy Halladay would solve a lot of problems. He gives the Yankees a rotation that can get them to the playoffs and beyond while at the same time taking heat off a soon-to-be-overworked bullpen.

But how to how get him? That is the question. Here are my conditions:

• Vernon Wells can stay where he is. Taking that ridiculous contract is a non-starter.

• I’m not giving up Phil Hughes.

That said, here is what I will give up:

Joba Chamberlain. The unexplained loss of velocity is a concern. So is the stubborn unwillingness to listen to others. There is a chance he could be great. But as each day passes, there seems to be more of a chance that he won’t be. He has a great story, but maybe we’ve already seen the best part. Look at this way, what the odds he will be as good as Halladay will be for the rest of this season and next? Zero.

Jesus Montero. There has to be pain in this trade and this is it. Jesus of Venezuela might be the best power hitter in the minors and could be a difference-maker for any team. But he’s a catcher and that is the one position where the Yankees are loaded. The defensively refined Austin Romine is developmentally close to Montero and Francisco Cervelli could well prove to be an adequate stopgap. Plus the Yankees have a bunch of impressive young catchers in the pipeline including Kyle Higashioka, Gary Sanchez and (soon enough) J.R. Murphy. It’ll hurt, but Montero could well be a DH in five years. The world is full of DHs.

Anybody else: Yes, anybody else in the minors. Austin Jackson, Dellin Betances, Zack McAllister, take your pick. This is Roy Halladay, after all.

Sure, Halladay will add $7 million to the payroll this season. Big deal. The Yankees are drawing more fans than any team out there and inventing new revenue streams every day. Broadband access, Yankees Universe, etc. There must be $7 million in there somewhere. Check the Legends Seats for loose change.

So there you have it. I don’t for a second think the Yankees will do it. But if J.P. Ricciardi will take Joba, Jesus and anybody else, I’d make the deal.

The Yankees need a starter and can’t do better than Halladay.

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676 Responses to “How to get Roy Halladay”

  1. Cash is King July 15th, 2009 at 10:04 am

    As soon as you listed Montero, I stopped reading because I don’t think will do that unless they can keep both Joba and Hughes.

  2. Cam July 15th, 2009 at 10:05 am

    Holy crap, I think chills just went up my spine thinking about a rotation with this guy. My goodness.

  3. Cash is King July 15th, 2009 at 10:05 am

    Pete,
    Have you looked at Romine’s stats lately because you don’t even mentioned him?

  4. tony July 15th, 2009 at 10:08 am

    I wouldn’t give up Montero.

  5. TexasYanksFan July 15th, 2009 at 10:08 am

    I can agree with all that, except Montero. Untouchable. Maybe sub in some hookers, cash and blow instead.

  6. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    Phil Hughes looked last season like he wouldn’t be great but he turned that around.

    Hughes didn’t win a game all season in 2008 and was far worse than Joba this year. Far worse.

    Joba has a much bigger upside than Hughes as well.

    It doesn’t take much for the Yankee fanbase and media to turn on you.

  7. Bubba July 15th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    I was thinking the same thing. If you can make that trade you do it. A rotation with Halladay, Sabathia and Burnett leading the way is worth the pain. You’d be trading a couple of possibly good to great talents for a sure thing for at least the next year and a half and you would have to expect that you’d get to or win at least one world series with that rotation. Title > future talent. Do it.

  8. Doreen July 15th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    I know it won’t make me popular with my fellow Lohudders but I agree that Montero is the piece that must be included in a deal for Halladay (from the Jays’ point of view). Joba is a question mark that could turn out to be an exclamation point, but he’s no longer untouchable and I’d rather keep Hughes, as well. He may not have the upside of Joba, but there’s something about him I personally like better.

    I go back and forth about the absolute “need” for Halladay, but he is clearly better than the current 3, 4 and 5 pitchers that are currently out there for the Yankees, with no clear indications that things will improve on their own.

    I love my prospects, but you’re not going to end up with all of them anyway, for one reason or another, and one of the reasons a team wants to be deep in prospects is to use some of them when a deal like this one comes around and you want to be a player. The question is, do the Yankees want to do this.

  9. Arenoso July 15th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    Just imagine a post season rotation of CC – Doc – AJ, the Yankees will be virtually unbeatable

  10. Greg July 15th, 2009 at 10:10 am

    The Yankees will regret the day they trade Joba. They showed patience and kept Hughes, Kennedy, and Melky, and now, Santana is beginning to show us why- whether he’s or hurt or he’s losing it, it’s tough to give up young pitchers who may give you 7-10 good years if you let them mature for a pitcher who gives you 1-3. Don’t pull the blunder with Joba…he will make us pay as well. So he’s had a few bad starts in a row- so have many pitchers- let him work it out…it may even take until the beginning of next season for that to happen. The Yankees have tried this “win now” approach for the last 4 years and haven’t made it out of the first round- maybe ya think it’s time for a different approach?

  11. Ed July 15th, 2009 at 10:10 am

    Saying the Yankees need a starter and then suggesting trading a member of the rotation to get one is somewhat counter-productive. Yeah, Halladay is better than Joba, but then you’re still stuck with Mitre and an inconsistent Pettitte at the back of the rotation.

    Getting a decent #4 and letting Pettitte slide to #5 would do a lot more.

  12. TCarda4 July 15th, 2009 at 10:10 am

    If they are giving up Hughes/Joba AND Jesus, i dont think u can give them another high level talent like Jackson or a top pitching prospect.

  13. Keith--FL July 15th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    I agree totally Pete…this is a win now team and if we do make the playoffs as currently constituted I am not comfortable with playing the Angels and then maybe the Red Sox in the playoffs…Halladay would make me feel a whole lot better about it….time to sell high with Chamberlain, losing Montero would hurt….I would also keep Austin Jackson off limits as he can be a young athletic outfielder for us…Blue Jays should be happy with Chamberlain and Montero and 1 other prospect….. Montero is listed as the 3rd best prospect in all of baseball…..if the Blue Jays don’t want those 2 guys well then no trade, can’t believe they could do better elsewhere unless the Angels get involved….sometimes you have to take a chance and beating the Angels and Sox will require a little more starting pitching and Halladay would be a perfect fit…….

  14. Greg July 15th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    Oh, and by the way Arenoso…CC is a horrible playoff pitcher and AJ is unproven…NOBODY is unbeatable.

  15. S.A.--Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 10:12 am

    Joba and Jesus? :cry:

    I really would want Jesus to stay.

    Well, we’ll see

  16. Stanman July 15th, 2009 at 10:12 am

    So you would give up Joba, Montero, and any other prospect for a 32 year old Halladay, who will be a free agent after next season?

    Pete, I love this blog and all, but man am I glad you’re not the GM.

    Its these types of knee jerk reactions to why we never develop any young talent. Every SP prospect goes through some troubles, its expected. Not everyone bursts onto the scene like a Lincecum. A 32 year old, who has been a workhorse, thus more likely to wear down faster isn’t exactly what I’d give up the farm for. Yes, it makes us better for this year, but breaks even next year, and goes down in the years after that.

    Joba may never be what Halladay was, but he’ll be better than what Halladay will be in 2 years. And that wait isn’t worth Montero PLUS any other prospect. And then you have to sign him to basically a full value contract because you get to have him for one year prior to his free agency year.

    If we follow this philosophy, then when Jeter, Mo, and Posada are retiring, we will field a bunch of old veterans signed out of free agency, rather than trying to infuse some youth into the team.

    Our best bet, is to get Halladay out of the AL East. Phillies, c’mon down. There is no way the Yankees do this deal, and there is no way the Phillies deal this amount of talent either. Just from the Phillies, look for Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, and something small.

  17. hardwired July 15th, 2009 at 10:12 am

    there’s this from Buster Olney:

    “The longer that the Marlins wait, the more unlikely it is that they are going to sign Josh Johnson”

    I’d take Josh Johnson over Roy Halladay in a heartbeat (much younger & MUCH cheaper). Whatever package Cashman is considering offering to Ricciardi for Halladay, I’d offer first to the Marlins for Johnson.

  18. ditmars1929 July 15th, 2009 at 10:12 am

    Pete, I agree with you, especially in that I’d like to see Joba traded, but I still don’t think Joba, Jesus, and one other is enough to get a deal done within the division. I’m guessing Toronto would want, at least, BOTH Hughes and Joba.

    I honestly didn’t realize the Yankees were so loaded with catching. I mean, I knew they had a couple but not as many as you mentioned. My initial thought when reading your post was “Not Jesus, he needs to eventually replace Jorge!” but after you rattled off all of those names, fine let Jesus go, although you’re right, it’ll hurt.

    Philly seems more likely for Halladay.

  19. MGUMPHER July 15th, 2009 at 10:13 am

    The only thing that seems to keep coming back to me is if there is concerns about Joba wouldn’t those same concerns the Yankees have be concerns the Jays have?

    Joba could be great. He could be a flop. He could be one of those on one year off another year type players. Gets in shape and does very well, then believes the hard work is done and does nothing in the off season and its back to weaker pitching and subborn attitude.

    A change of team could actually be something that could help Joba out. That or being sent back down to the minors.

    I also think about how the Yankees felt about Tabata just a short time ago, then the problems started happening and tales of his attitude and he was gone.

    Jesus I would not include, if only to look to hold on to him to develop more for a future trade when he has higher value. It seems there is enough of a high end prospect with Jackson included.

    Obviously it would take more than 3 prospects, but Joba isn’t exactly a prospect anymore. Even if he could use some more seasoning.

  20. SCRANTON July 15th, 2009 at 10:13 am

    Your gonna bring down the house with this one Pete haha.

  21. Doreen July 15th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Ed -

    That’s a good point you make. They’d still need another starter if Joba or Hughes was included in a trade for Halladay. I guess people look at it like Halladay is an upgrade over Pettitte/Chamberlain/TBA and it makes it easier to take your chances with Pettitte and TBA?

  22. walt July 15th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    go for it cashman, do something anything but acquire some guy named ian snell! but first explore the possibiity of josh johnson being available. lets get josh johnson and halladay !

  23. Fran (the original) and OPPC member July 15th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    Would the Jays take Joba as a centerpiece of the trade? They can obviously see his drop in velocity too. They might have questions concerning his health and mental attitude as well. I think the Jays would ask for Hughes as a starting point and I am not sure I would want to trade Hughes.

  24. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 10:17 am

    I’ll say this much, I don’t see any scenario where Cashman feels compelled to deal not only their best arm in the system (Joba) but their best bat as well.

    Not to mention perhaps their best athlete as well (Jackson).

    I love Halladay as much as the next guy, but there’s no way Cashman would make that deal.

  25. jonnie July 15th, 2009 at 10:17 am

    i have two untouchables in the yankees system: Philip Hughes and Jesus Montero. I feel that they will be the cornerstones of this organization very soon. Anyone else i would include unless it is those two.

  26. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 10:18 am

    I wouldn’t give up Joba or Montero for Halladay. Screw that.

  27. Erica - always OPPC July 15th, 2009 at 10:18 am

    Rebecca must be asleep or she would be typing epic posts right now…

  28. Andrew July 15th, 2009 at 10:19 am

    Ugh another day of nonstop Halladay, great. If only it was Friday night in a few hours and there was a game to divert everyone’s attention away from trade deadline shenaningans. Halladay to the Yankees will remain a pipe dream. Maybe if the Yankees flop in the 2nd half and there is an overhaul at the positions of authority (manager/GM/whatever), the new regime will go hard after Roy. But I still say it is really farfetched to expect him to the Yankees in the next 2 weeks.

  29. m July 15th, 2009 at 10:20 am

    Wow. I may have to re-think my position on this, Pete and I are actually on the same page. Just kidding!

    If it weren’t Roy Halladay, I’d say keep it status quo.

    But it is, and these opportunities don’t come along often. Especially within the division.

  30. arliss July 15th, 2009 at 10:20 am

    Great piece Pete – I have been saying for several weeks now that you leverage the future to win now……when the guys you mentioned and others, most notable of which is Arod, are still extremely productive players.

    To me this is a virtual no brainer and if Riccardi is willing to move him within the divison, then by all means, empty the system to the extent required and get the games best pitcher.

    Halladay, Sabathia, AJB – 6 times in a 7 game ALCS/WS. The second this trade is done, the Yankees are immediately the overwhelming favorites to win it all in 2009 and 2010.

  31. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    I hope those who continue to bludgeon Joba to death on this board aren’t going to scratch and claw their way back on the bandwagon when he does turn things around.

    I mean, Yankee fans wouldn’t do that, would they?

    Whether he does it this season or next, Joba will eventually turn things around and make a lot of people writing him off look pretty foolish.

  32. hardwired July 15th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    as long as he doesn’t end up in Boston, I’m ok w/Halladay not pitching for the Yanks.

    How many times have the Yanks traded for a stud only to watch him fall to pieces under the bright lights?

    In the words of the great dunce George W. Bush:

    “There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.”

  33. SJ44 July 15th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    “Upside” is a scouting word. Two years ago, Joba Chamberlain looked like a guy who had the ability to be a dominant pitcher. He may still get there.

    However, you can’t wipe away what we are seeing this year. That goes into the evaluation as much as what you saw two years ago.

    Also, let’s not get carried away with “turning on” Joba.

    We are talking about trading him for Roy Halladay, not Carl Pavano.

    I know folks have a fixation here with having homegrown players everywhere on the roster and young is always better than old.

    However, if you want to get a guy like Halladay, you have to give up Chamberlain or Hughes. One or the other.

    Personally, I’d give up Joba only because I’m getting real uncomfortable with the act. Its not good and the Yankees aren’t an organization that’s real patient waiting for 23 year olds to grow up.

    The money? This doesn’t even bear comment. The Yankees can take on this money EASILY and not lose any sleep over it. They can also extend him for 3 years, if so inclined, and be fine. Money isn’t an issue in this deal.

    Montero? I would do everything in my power to keep him out of the deal. I would add Jackson and other prospects, if possible. It may not be possible. If that’s the case, then any other prospects going back to Toronto have to be lesser prospects.

    I’d be willing to take on Rios’ money before I’d give up Montero.

    That said, this team isn’t going to the playoffs as currently configured in the rotation.

    Don’t quote me the stat of their record since Arod got back. Its meaningless.

    If this bullpen has to cover 12-15 more innings a week because Pettitte, Chamberlain and whomever the fifth starter is can’t give them length, they won’t hold up the rest of the year.

    Don’t tell me, these guys “will have a big second half”. There is no evidence they will. Andy has struggled for a calendar year. Joba hasn’t given them length all year. Nobody knows what Mitre can do and Wang isn’t even throwing yet. Wish and reality are two different things.

    Last year, the starters pitched just as few innings and didn’t make the playoffs. Its a recipe for disaster.

    The Yankees have the money, the need and the propsects to do this deal. Its a question of whether JP can get better elsewhere.

    If he can, the Yankees aren’t in play. If he can’t, they are.

  34. m July 15th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    hardwired,

    Perish the thought that Boston would trade for Josh Johnson. Could be Beckett 2.0.

  35. JasonR July 15th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    I think they have to do it. Like Pete said, the clock is ticking on Jeter, Rivera, and Jorge. It would be tough to part with Joba and Jesus, and I haven’t given up on Joba despite his struggles and his attitude. You don’t give up on 23 year old pitchers. And I think Jesus is a stud who could be an amazing force in the game.

    But you have to do it. This is Roy Halladay, this is a guy who could push the Yankees from “one of the contenders” to “the #1 contender”. Just paraphasing what Cashman said about Rivera/Hughes earlier this month, how do you look Derek Jeter in the eye and say “Sorry, we could have gotten ROY HALLADAY, but we’re preparing for a hypothetical championship run in 4-5 years, which you probably won’t be a part of.”

    Will we have pangs of regret if Joba is steamrolling the league in 2014 and Montero is blasting home runs regularly. Sure, but let’s not lose sight of the ultimate goal. The goal is to win championships, not develop prospects.

    If the Jays agree to do that deal, then you make that deal. This is a team built to win now.

  36. mark July 15th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    roy will also have the opportunity to help Burnett, as he has in the past. AJ has said that doc was a big influence and that relationship will help AJ and the yanks.

  37. S.A.--Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    A combo of Doc-CC-AJ would make struggling Andy and mystery 5th pitcher/Mitre a little bit easier to live with at the back end..

  38. walt July 15th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    For Halladay: Joba, Ajax, some other young AA player or players. For Josh Johnson: Zach MacAllister, Alfredo Aceves, Montero. Good fair offers to both clubs.

  39. m July 15th, 2009 at 10:24 am

    Sorry about that, don’t know what that link on my handle is or why it showed up.

    Please don’t click, because I haven’t! Beware!

  40. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 10:25 am

    No politics on this board.

    Pete and I don’t agree on much but even he would agree with that.

  41. disco stu July 15th, 2009 at 10:25 am

    I wonder though … if the Yankees were willing to take on Vernon Wells contract in the Halladay trade, would they be able to put together a package of 4-5 top prospects (i.e. Montero, McCallister, Betances, Igawa (just kidding)) and not have to give up either Joba or Hughes?

  42. SteveB July 15th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    Pete, I would NOT make this trade.

    For years we have complained how the Yankees always mortgage the future for the present, then regret it. This is just another one of those temptations. Let Halladay go to a NL team and don’t look back.

    And just a reminder– Halladay is 32, & has been hurt for a time or DL’d every year since 2004 except for 2008. Twice for problems relating to his pitching arm.

  43. m July 15th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    I’m with SJ, “pursuading” JP to give up Rios will bring down the cost in prospects.

    Kill 2 birds with one stone.

  44. pat July 15th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    “CC – Doc – AJ, the Yankees will be virtually unbeatable”

    Nice to say but CC, Doc, and AJ are all beatable and signing Doc helps their odds but guarantees nothing.

    That being said, the AL East is a bear and and a 3 team race this year could turn into a 4 team race in the next year or 2.

    I may have to hug my prospects from afar but the opportunity to go for it is now.

  45. Andrew July 15th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    PECOTA has the Yankees postseason odds as 75.7% likely that they will be making the playoffs. I value that pretty highly since it has been extremely accurate and Nate Silver & Co. are the truth.

    But yeah, I’m sure they won’t make the playoffs unless they get Roy Halladay.

  46. YankFanDave July 15th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    Pete, what you propose might actually get it done excepting the fact that since Roy is wanted by everyone, Toronto will get equal or greater value outside the division so I don’t see him ending up in the AL East. Having said that, I feel like I’m in a time machine taken back to the days of TRY to win now at all costs. Do we really want to go back to selling the future for a year and a half rental that will cost a ton to resign. We are 3 games out of 1st place with the 3rd best record in MLB and a bunch of players that historically have BETTER 2nd halves. The future looks bright to me.

  47. jonnie July 15th, 2009 at 10:27 am

    sj-
    do you agree that the two players the yankees should try to hold onto are hughes and montero?

  48. Richie July 15th, 2009 at 10:27 am

    I would rather lose for the next three years than trade Montero (or Hughes).

  49. Bill July 15th, 2009 at 10:27 am

    This trade has been examined every which way over the past few days and you can really make a case both ways. But if the goal is to win the WS, and of course it is, the NYY have to make this trade. Nothing is guaranteed but Doc in a NYY uni greatly increases their odds.I am reminded of something Cashman said a few weeks ago regarding taking PH out of the pen, something to the effect that, “How can I look at Mo and tell him I’m weakening his ‘pen?” The team hasn’t won a WS in 9 years, Jeter, Mo, Andy and Jorge are running out of time. How can Cashman, knowing Doc is available, look at those guys and not make a deal? If he makes a good offer and the Jays turn it down that’s one thing, but he at least has to try.

  50. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 10:28 am

    SJ,

    I know your stance on Joba. We agree on most issues for the exception of patience with youngsters.

    But you are more of a “What have you don’t for me, lately?” kind of fan than I am.

    I’m not a fire and brimstone kind of guy.

    It’s not an insult to you or anything but you and I will never agree on that philosophy.

  51. xxx July 15th, 2009 at 10:28 am

    Jose Molina, Cody Ransom and a PTBNL for Halladay.

    Let’s get it done!

  52. Jabu July 15th, 2009 at 10:29 am

    Quote from Kim Jone’s blog:
    Meanwhile, Roy Halladay could be quite a rental for the next season and a half, huh? Plenty of his fellow all-stars probably have floated the idea to him.

    Interesting that Halladay told the all-star media that he wouldn’t mind pitching – and batting ninth — in the National League because “I’d rather hit than face Jeter, A-Rod, Matsui and Teixeira.”

    Hmmm. All Yankees. There’s a way he could avoid facing the Yankee hitters besides going to the NL, of course. Roy could ask AJ about that.

    You’ve got to ponder about the subtle hint that Halladay is voicing here since he has full no trade.

  53. henner July 15th, 2009 at 10:30 am

    “Jose Molina, Cody Ransom and a PTBNL for Halladay.

    Let’s get it done!”

    Resign berroa and use as trade-bait

  54. djf July 15th, 2009 at 10:30 am

    Does anyone remember what Doc’s ERA was at Joba’s age? 10.64! Joba is better than Halladay, Santana, & Sabathia when they were 23. Will he turn out as good as they did? Maybe, maybe not. But I sure as hell want to find out while he’s still a Yankee!

  55. m July 15th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    Asked if having a GM who kept him informed made dealing with this uncertainty easier or harder, Halladay answered:

    “I think it’s been good, only because the information I’ve gotten has just been, ‘This is what we’re going to have to look at.’ It hasn’t been something where I’ve had to sit down and look at this [team's] situation or that situation. That part, I think, would be harder. But for him to just come up and say, ‘This is what we’re going to try to do, just to give you a heads-up’ — that part, I think, is OK. But I think there’s a certain part where you just want to stay out of it.”

    That will be easier to do since multiple media reports have said the Jays will not allow teams to negotiate with Halladay prior to the completion of any trade.

    Halladay, who is under contract for next season at $15.75 million, has a no-trade clause and would have to approve any deal. He did not say whether an extension would have to be part of any deal.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4327888

  56. Tarheelyank July 15th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    Pete
    Good post, except for this

    “what the odds he will be as good as Halladay will be for the rest of this season and next? Zero.”

    You just never know in this game. Once you start talking in absolutes, it has a way of coming back on you.

  57. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    Oops, typo:

    But you are more of a “What have you done for me, lately?” kind of fan than I am.

  58. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    I don’t think the Yankees or any team for that matter will be willing to give up the type of players it’ll take to get Halladay if its simply a rental player. The Yankees NEVER make deals like that

  59. Cash is King July 15th, 2009 at 10:32 am

    How do you know that Joba was better than Halladay? What’s that based on? Yankee fans need to stop overvaluing their own players and prospects.

  60. S.A.--Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 10:32 am

    Jose Molina, Cody Ransom and a PTBNL for Halladay.

    ============================

    I’m all for that deal. :lol:

  61. jpb1973 July 15th, 2009 at 10:32 am

    Aren’t the Yankees committed to getting younger ? If so, getting Roy Halladay and giving up Montero and Chamberlain (plus other prospects) represnts a reversal of that policy.

    One problem with getting older pitchers is that you only have them for 4 or 5 years. Then they are too old to do you any good and you are forced to go the same route to replace them. As for me, I’d like to see the Yankees invest another year in developing their own young pitchers before going back to the old policy of buying older pitchers who are in decline.

    P.S. I know that the Yankees invested big buck$ in Sabathia and Burnett, but I believe the only reason they did that was because this was the first season for the New Yankee Stadium and they wanted to ensure a lot of advanced ticket sales. I didn’t see that as a change back to the old policy.

    P.P.S. The only pitcher that I would consider giving a lot of prospects for is Huston Street because I think he can be the eventual replacement for Mariano Rivera. The sooner the Yankees can get him…the better.

  62. ariel July 15th, 2009 at 10:32 am

    There is no such thing as an “untouchable” prospect who has never played a day in the bigs. Cashman would/should do Pete’s deal in a heartbeat even if the package also included Ajax. Doubt that Ricciardi will, however.

  63. Gary July 15th, 2009 at 10:33 am

    Jobamania has run it’s course. This team cannot have a repeat of ’08 by watching the playoffs on TV.
    If Joba Chamberlain has to be the front piece of a deal to get Roy Halladay you have to take the known commodity over a “what if”.
    Brian Cashman has to put together a smart package and realize that other pitching prospects will remain in the farm system to develop with as much or more upside than Joba Chamberlain has. All deals come with some risk but Halladay cuts the odds down. Simply put, the man can anchor a pitching staff and keep bullpen useage down to a minimum. The 4-5 innings and fluff that Joba provides just isn’t cutting it. He’s as good as he’ll ever be.

  64. Mike July 15th, 2009 at 10:33 am

    Pete is 100 percent right . .We have to feel pain . and if its Montero . than so be it ! .

  65. Cash is King July 15th, 2009 at 10:33 am

    “Cashman would/should do Pete’s deal in a heartbeat even if the package also included Ajax. Doubt that Ricciardi will, however.”

    Then JP should be fired on the spot.

  66. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 10:33 am

    “Does anyone remember what Doc’s ERA was at Joba’s age? 10.64! Joba is better than Halladay, Santana, & Sabathia when they were 23. Will he turn out as good as they did? Maybe, maybe not. But I sure as hell want to find out while he’s still a Yankee!”

    He’s also better than Bob Gibson and Sandy Koufax were at that age as well. It’s 100% certain that he will never be the caliber pitcher of Gibson or Koufax. And I’m beginning to doubt whether he can be of the caliber of the Santana’s or Halladay’s of the world. But, given his age and his pure talent, I can’t give up on the kid.

  67. ariel July 15th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    The mantra always has been “the future is now” and will continue to so be.

  68. Scott July 15th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    Maybe I’m just old-fashioned, but I would like to seem them just once try and go for it with what they have. Other teams do it, and I’m not one of those a-holes that says things like, if they spent close to half a billion, isn’t that enough?

    I hate those people, but, I digress.

    Point is though, how is CC and Burnett not enough? They’ve been beaten in the playoffs by less, and if they could hit a little bit in the playoffs, providing they get in, they’d be fine, for at least a round or so. As we all know and have seen, its just about getting hot.

    For me, what was fun about them winning before was that it felt “right”, if rooting for a bunch of millionaire strangers playing a kid’s game for a living can ever feel right. There just was something more “earned” with those championships and runs, that it was more fair, though I’m sure 29 other cities would disagree with that.

    I’d like to roll with the young guys, even if they suck. I mean, let’s be honest, them sucking isn’t making this team the Pirates. I’d rather see them let guys like Montero and Jackson come thru, but granted the other “prospects” like Eric Duncan, and Brandon Claussen and CJ Henry and Drew Henson and a whole host of others that haven’t done anything. Lastings Milledge anyone?

    But, why do we all say so many people say (me included) that they love watching the Rays or Angels? Because it’s all them, and there “guys”. Granted, that can’t last forever, and the Angles have made big FA signings, but, there’s a more “it’s ours” feeling. I want that back again, and I don’t want to trade for Halladay, even though it’s plainly undeniable how much better the team would be with him and that the guys they’d give up might not ever be anything, I’d comfortable giving it a go with the guys they’ve got.

    Sorry for the book.

  69. Kwis Wusso July 15th, 2009 at 10:36 am

    Pete, you’re right and if the Yankess don’t make the WS this year there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth by everyone.
    I agree that Wells is done but what if you add Alex Rios to this scenario?? The Jays want to dump one or the other’s salary….Rios makes some sense for the Yankees especially after this year. His salary is not as onerous and he is a better player at this point and none of the competition wants him. Taking on Rios dollars might be the difference maker and perhaps lower the total value in players needed.

  70. m July 15th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    djf,

    maybe Joba should go back to the minors like Doc did? And hone his craft? Then maybe Joba can come back and be a kick-ass pitcher like Halladay.

    Look, it’s obvious that Joba’s not going to throw as hard as he did until he got hurt. Other pitchers have been able to pitch with less stuff, so I know he can do it.

    I think we can accept that Joba’s not a flamethrower any more, but he’s going to need to make adjustments and learn how to “pitch”.

    The problem with him doing it in the majors is it’s difficult to do under microscopic scrutiny in the majors.

    I’m not giving up on Joba at all, but he needs to work with those trying to help him.

  71. jpb1973 July 15th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    If the Yankees are going to give up a bushelfull of prospects for a pitcher, I’d rather they get Huston Street. He’s only 27 years old and can be the eventual replacement for Mariano Rivera. I would hold the prospects until the off season to get Street assuming that he is unavailable right now.

    Roy Halladay is great, but adding him would leave the Yankees with another aging pitcher that they have to replace in 4 or 5 years. Lets give Chamberlain, Hughes, Kennedy and the other young pitchers some time before we revert to bring in aging pitchers.

  72. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 10:39 am

    Why are the Yankees not going to the playoffs with the current rotation? They’ve played the whole year with this rotation and are currently in the lead for the wild card.

    I don’t really understand all the panic surrounding this team. Things aren’t as dire as half of you think.

  73. ariel July 15th, 2009 at 10:39 am

    Cash is King,

    This is JP Ricciardi we are talking about. Among the lower echelon GMs in the business who should have been booted out quite a while back. He has an exalted view of what his marbles are worth.

  74. CB July 15th, 2009 at 10:40 am

    The argument for trading for Halladay is less compelling – in fact much less compelling – than it was for Johan Santana.

    And not trading for Santana turned out to be one of the best moves this franchise made in it’s recent history given the loss of talent and loss of financial flexibility they would have incurred.

    It’s funny how much people all of a sudden love Phil Hughes.

    How many of those people who would now never include him in a trade for Halladay were eager to send him packing for Santana?

    A year ago he was garbage. Now he is untradable.

    A year ago how many reporters and fans kept telling us about how the Phil Hughes act was tired. He was underperforming, didn’t have the stomach to challenge hitters, and could never stay healthy. I remember many blog posts about that.

    Now – he’s untouchable.

    If the yankees had made that Santana trade yankee fans right now would be cursing the front office for having made that trade. No question about it.

    They signed CC to a monstrous contract. They signed AJ and he’s pitching lights out.

    Yes the team needs pitching right now. But that does not mean you need Halladay. They aren’t desperate for an “ace.” That’s like saying you need a car and because Maybachs can be purchased on the market you must fill that need with a Maybach. Only a Maybach will do.

    The yankees only need a Toyota in order to make the playoffs.

    Trading Joba would be foolish. Trading Montero would be ludicrous.

    Putting them both in one package would be franchise suicide.

  75. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 10:40 am

    m,

    I agree entirely that Joba should be sent back to the minors. It worked for Halladay, where’s the harm in trying with Joba? Not to mention Joba was just given a spot in the rotation and never had to earn it (much like Hughes and Kennedy last year…they both had to be sent back to the minors). If we could send Phil Franchise back to the minors because he was ineffective and then have him start this season there as well, there’s no reason why the Yankees can’t do it with Joba too.

  76. Tom July 15th, 2009 at 10:40 am

    as long as halladay doesnt end up in boston

  77. raymagnetic July 15th, 2009 at 10:40 am

    “For years we have complained how the Yankees always mortgage the future for the present, then regret it. This is just another one of those temptations. Let Halladay go to a NL team and don’t look back.”

    Only thing is they haven’t been mortgaging their future. Name me one top prospect that the Yankees have traded in the past 10 years that’s gone on to hurt them?

    Mike Lowell is probably the last guy they traded who they may have regretted trading. Of course they won 2 championships after they traded him so they might not regret it at all.

    The thought that the Yankees have been mortgaging their future is a myth perpetuated by the fans.

    Now you can say that giving up their number one picks and signing free agents mortgaged their future, but not on the trade front.

  78. SJ44 July 15th, 2009 at 10:40 am

    I’m not a fire and brimstone guy and I love prospects as much as the next guy.

    I just don’t believe all of them are going to be “cornerstones of the franchise for the next 10-15 years” as others do.

    In fact, only ONE prospect of the 100′s of prospects that have been in the Yankee system since 1995 has been that kind of guy. That’s Derek Jeter.

    Now, we have 4-8 of them? No, we don’t.

    I also know that evaluations change from year to year, just as the parent club needs change from year to year.

    Forget about all the stupid statistical projections.

    The bullpen isn’t going to hold up if they can’t get more length and quality from starters 3-4-5. No bullpen can hold up with such overuse. That’s baseball reality.

    If this franchise misses the playoffs for a second straight year, a new regime will be in place and they aren’t going to prospect hug. Their job will be to make the playoffs, and everybody will be in play to get that job done. That’s when you run the risk of real mismanagement.

    I think the Yankees can make this deal AND keep their farm system intact. They have the player depth to withstand the losses.

    They aren’t going to “drain the system” to make this, or any other deal so that’s not even a consideration.

    However, let’s be real, this is Roy Halladay. All this nonsense that he is “32″, like its a death sentence is comical.

    You all wanted Andy Pettitte back for two more years, last year and this year, ages 36 and 37. The Yankees will have paid Andy over 20 million dollars to pitch at ages 36 and 37 for them. How’s that working out?

    You mean to tell me that’s a “good investment” but, 22 million (what’s owed Doc) at 32 is a bad investment?

    Sorry, I’m not buying it.

    If they make this deal and they end up making the post-season, its 3-5 million, minimum to their bottom line. In other words, most of the remaining 2009 salary for Halladay is paid from the extra money making the playoffs brings to the franchise.

    If they don’t make the post-season, the 2010 rotation is CC-Doc-AJ-Hughes-Wang. I’d say, that’s pretty good.

    I just don’t see the downside if it shook out that way.

  79. pat July 15th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Yesterday, Steve Phillips of all people gave a good non-baseball example of trading prospects for Halladay.

    If you won the lottery, are you taking the payout in one lump sum or are you taking the multi-year payout.

    Halladay is the lump sum. You invest it and determine your return.

    Prospects are the multi-year payout. You see the return a little at a time but won’t know whether it was the right way to go for years down the road.

  80. Richie July 15th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Before Joba goes back to the mLs, the Yankees should replace Eiland with a better pitching coach to see if that works. It’s a far more cost effective option.

  81. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    Amen, CB.

    Consider this my virtual fist bump. Couldn’t have said it any better myself.

  82. Pel July 15th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    >They’ve played the whole year with this rotation and
    >are currently in the lead for the wild card.

    They even had those horrid CMW starts in the beginning and managed to get to where they are now.

  83. jpb1973 July 15th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    “Jose Molina, Cody Ransom and a PTBNL for Halladay.

    Let’s get it done!”

    Resign berroa and use as trade-bait

    ————————————————-

    Now thats a deal I can go for. Instead of Berroa, though, lets get Darrell Rasner back from Japan and throw him into the deal. He can be a direct replacement in the Blue Jays starting rotation for Halladay.

  84. losjanks July 15th, 2009 at 10:43 am

    Pete,

    You would really make this trade without an opportunity to negotiate an extension with Halladay?

    Obviously there’s going to need to be some pain involved if you want to acquire a player of his caliber…and what you’ve listed seems about the right level of pain…but I’m not so sure it’s quite right for what amounts to a year and a half rental.

    If you can lock up Halladay for another two years on top of the year and a half remaining on his current contract, that would be ideal. I’m not saying that Halladay would actually go for that (and furthermore unless I’ve missed some other development, the Jays have come out and said there’s no window for negotiation of an extension)…but since the whole discussion is in hypothetical land to begin with, I’m just sayin’…

  85. gianthinker July 15th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    I totally agree Peter except I would be willing to take on the contract of either Rios or Wells if it meant us getting Halladay. He’s the best pitcher in the world. As long as we’d keep Hughes I’d give them whatever they want.

  86. m July 15th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Oh, I think the Yankees will go to the playoffs, and things aren’t dire at all (as long as mitre pans out). ;)

    But we’re talking Roy Halladay.

    Not Jarrod Washburn. Not Erik Bedard. Not Doug Davis.

    Roy Halladay.

    If we don’t get him, it’s nothing to lose sleep over. But getting could be the upper cut that just knocks out the others in the division.

  87. gianthinker July 15th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    losjanks-There’s two years to work out another deal and the Yankees would never allow him to leave and sign with the Red Sox later if thats what worries you.

  88. Tommy H July 15th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    I think that is too much- You can include either Joba or Montero plus Ajax and another prospect- but trading both of them is highly overpaying-

    This is the regime that wouldn’t deal Hughes, Kennedy and Melky for Johan- now we are going to deal Joba and 2 far superior pieces for an older pitcher without being able to sign him to an extension? I would love him, but I’m just hoping he goes to the NL-

  89. Corrie Besaw July 15th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    I personally think Joba has some personal issues that will and are hindering his career. He refuses to listen to calls and has an attitude problem. I don’t see it getting better any time soon. He needs some 12 step help if you know what I mean..Another Steve Howe. Talented but threw it all away for substances. I would love it if the Yankees got halliday. I think they should trade Joba and Cano. Another one with an attitude problem.

  90. Doreen July 15th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    They only “have to” do it if they decide that they “have to” get to the World Series this season. They could say, well, we didn’t anticipate Wang being basically useless (not to be cruel at all), and we certainly anticipated Joba to be giving more than he has; looks like we’ll do the best we can with what we have this year and start over next season.

    Doesn’t really sound like the Yankees philosphy, though.

    The question is whether they go for reinforcements in a smaller way or in the big splash Halladay way. I’ve said before, I’m torn. Can they get enough from adding a #4 or #5 guy from outside the organization (or even a #3 guy) so that they don’t have to go totally off their plan developmentally as they would be forced to do if they go all in for Halladay?

    Halladay is not a MUST, but something or someone out there definitely is.

    And it would be wise to keep in mind that they could go all in for Halladay and still not make it to the playoffs at all.

  91. ariel July 15th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    If JP wants more, Cash could “throw in” Shelly D….that would cinch it!

  92. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    ——
    The unexplained loss of velocity is a concern. So is the stubborn unwillingness to listen to others.
    ——

    Is it really that difficult to grasp this concept? As a reliever, you can throw harder for one or 2 innings than you normally would as a starter. Even Hughes seems to have picked up some “mysterious” velocity now that he is in the pen. Is this because he magically got better when he moved to the pen? NO. You don’t throw 98 MPH when you have to try to throw 100 pitches, unless you are 6’11″ and the ball naturally comes out of your hand at that speed. There is no missing velocity here for Joba at all. Get a clue.

    And where is there any documentation of Joba not “listening to others”? Anywhere? Or is this just more made up nonsense like Sabathia not wanting to pitch to Posada…

  93. Matt D July 15th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    So when joba throws 7 innings with 8ks and 2 runs in his next outing everyone will COMPLETLEY change their mind. This is baseball, not football. You can not judge a player’s career on a start to start basis. This is madness, let the kid develop. I’d rather have joba for 10 years then halladay for 3.

  94. Kid A July 15th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    here’s my trade proposal:

    Giuseppe Franco, Greenberet7 and a Poster To Be Named Later to SoSH for Foulkey Reese and Rudy Pemberton.

  95. henner July 15th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    the yankees must be able to talk extension w/halladay before any trade is made. cashman should tell him “listen, we have a deal in place for you to come here, get out of toronto and possibly win a championship in three months time. but were not doing it if you dont sign an extension.” that puts the yankees in the position of power. if they trade for him then he can hit the free market in 18 months time, it is he who holds the power

  96. Paul from Cali July 15th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    This Yankees team also needs a bullpen, and regardless of whether they try to get Halladay or not, I expect them to trade for a bullpen arm or 2.

    That said, if I’m the Yankees I don’t give up on Joba yet. His upside is too good to pass up. Even if you can resign Halladay and he stays a few more years, he’s 32 years old now, so you’re looking to keep him at least into his mid to late 30s. Would I rather have 3 or 4 years of current Roy Halladay at best, or 8+ years of the future Joba Chamberlain? I’d take Joba.

    If Halladay hits the free agent market in 1.5 years and the Yanks still need that arm, you go after him. But the Yankees have to stop stripping the farm system every time a hot name comes along.

  97. m July 15th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    Just because there’s no 72-hour window, doesn’t mean an extension can’t be negotiated.

    Doc has not said whether or not he requires an extension to waive a NTC.

    Ricciardi has said he won’t allow the window to negotiate the extension.

    They’re not one and the same.

  98. sjufan July 15th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    pete – you’re “jeter, posada, and rivera” approach is spot on. three premium positions, three of the games best, three that will be tough to replace (both overall and relative to their position). that makes the yankees as “win now” as you can be. you just have to find a balance of not completely sacrificing the future. and i think we’ve built our system to a point where a trade like the one you mention works. it hurts, but part of the reason you develop prospects is to go get a player like halladay and win a world series. not just hold on to all of them and hope they work out. the goal is to win it all.

  99. SJ44 July 15th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    Leading for the WC with 70 games left means nothing.

    Again, does anybody the bullpen is going to hold up covering all of these innings? If your answer is “yes”, don’t make any deals.

    Then, when the bullpen falls apart in August and September, don’t whine about “Cashman holding pat”.

    If you have a chance win, and several of your core players are over 35, you have to take the chance to go for it.

    Would I trade Joba AND Montero for Doc? No. I say this because nobody else will put two guys of that calibur into the deal. If JP wants one, you has to take a larger package of players to do the deal.

    If you get the ML-ready high end pitching prospect, you can’t have the #1 power hitter in the system at the same time. No team will do that in this deal.

    Once you get the A List guy, the rest of the list begins to be reduced. Just look at the Sabathia and Santana deals as examples.

    If the Yankees put Joba, Romine, Jackson, and McAllister on the table for Halladay, that’s a very strong offer and few, if any teams could match it.

    Funny thing is, if they did that deal, they can withstand all of the above losses in the farm system and improve the parent club at the same time.

  100. Paul from Cali July 15th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    @henner: The Jays stated that nobody will be able to talk extension with Halladay before a deal is made. If you want him, you have to make the trade then hope you can talk extension, if you want to offer one.

  101. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 10:50 am

    “Getting a decent #4 and letting Pettitte slide to #5 would do a lot more.”

    We need at least a decent #3…neither Joba or Pettitte have been close to #3 quality this season but they weren’t expected to be. It should have been CC, Wang and AJ as the top 3 with Pettitte and Joba as 4 & 5. If we don’t go for Halladay we still need a solid 3 or better starting pitcher and at the very least some one we know can pitch 6-7 innings every time out.

  102. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 10:50 am

    Agree with CB 100%, good post.

  103. Jerkface July 15th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    here’s my trade proposal:

    Giuseppe Franco, Greenberet7 and a Poster To Be Named Later to SoSH for Foulkey Reese and Rudy Pemberton.

    Weak haul, we don’t even get Eric Van back.

  104. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    Besides that point, the Blue Jays are not making ANY of these deals. Halladay commands almost $40 million in value from prospects, plus they want a major league ready SS. Stop talking about a Halladay deal because with our pieces and desire to keep the farm, it’s an impossible move.

    The Blue Jays would have to be suicidal to try to trade him within the division anyway, which again raises the price to unfathomable levels.

  105. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    I’ve said this a few times in recent days but it’s worth repeating…..

    How many mature 23 yr old kids do you know in your life doing anything much less pitching in the big leagues?

    I know I wasn’t very mature at that age and I didn’t always listen to authority. And I sure as hell wasn’t alone.

    I just think all this immaturity stuff regarding Joba is a bunch of overanalyzed hogwash. Joba isn’t really much different than any other 23 yr old kid.

    There’s a reason why there aren’t many kids that age pitching in the bigs at a high level. Same reason there aren’t many successful kids that age doing anything.

  106. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    Joba needs to spend some time in the minors and just get himself together, both physically and mentally. He isn’t pitching with the same fluidity he used to, even last season in the rotation. He seems to be in a constant struggle on the mound and it feels like he’s just battling himself.

    It all happened too fast, too soon with Joba. He burst onto the scene as an absolute phenomena and I think it all went to his head, like it was a birthright. Send him to Scranton, give him a few weeks to work on things and re-evaluate things afterwards. I mean he’s not really giving the Yankees much that’s helping them. He has the talent to be great, but it’s another thing if he has the mental aptitude to overcome his struggles, something he had never done as a major leaguer before. The question is, does Joba have the mentality to overcome failures at this level, which he hadn’t really seen to this extent until this season.

  107. m July 15th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Tom B,

    Sorry. There’s more to the story than simply transitioning to the rotation.

    Holding back on velocity doesn’t explain the higher WHIP, increase in walks, and inefficiency.

    People forget that Joba started last season, too. This Joba’s a lot different from that one.

    Anyone who wants to say that Joba hasn’t regressed, will have a difficult time making such a case.

  108. CB July 15th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    “I also know that evaluations change from year to year, just as the parent club needs change from year to year.”

    They do.

    But if only the evaluation has changed but the underlying player hasn’t, well then, you have a big, big problem.

    If the player’s performance has decremented due to transient factors and the franchise mistakes those transient factors as real change then they are going to make very poor decisions.

    Perceptions of Phil Hughes absolutely fit that patter.

    In AA he was widely considered to be a future “ace.”

    He was untouchable. In fact many people went as far as to say he was one of the single most important players in the entire franchise because they needed young power pitchers so badly.

    A year later he was junk. Didn’t have the overpowering fastball, couldn’t stay healthy, didn’t have the fire in the belly needed to compete in NY, and was never, every going to be an “ace.”

    So, sure – the evaluation changed entirely.

    And it was entirely the wrong evaluation.

  109. jz July 15th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    The best way to get Halladay –

    Use Robby Cano as a chip in a three team deal. Here is the scenario:

    Cano to SF, Cin, Chi (Cubs) or some other offensively challenged team for one top prospect and one good prospect (think Baumgardner/Sancez from SF, or maybe Cueto from Cin)

    Package that TOP prospect/arm and good prospect along with say Romine, and A-Jax and send them along to Toronto for Halladay. So, the package would either be Cueto/Sanchez/Baumgardner, “b+” prospect, A-Jax and Romine…that should get it done.

    Or — if you must — offer to take Wells’ contract — he is just 31 and NOT horrible

    Finally — ship another one or two b prospects to Pit for Freddy Sanchez to play 2B — he is clearly on block…or let Russo/Pena play 2b and they will be fine

  110. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    “Again, does anybody the bullpen is going to hold up covering all of these innings? If your answer is “yes”, don’t make any deals. ”

    I am assuming you meant to say “Does anybody think the …”

    Yes I do think the bullpen will hold up. I also think that Joba and possibly Pettitte will pitch better. I also think Wang will return and contribute in some way.

    I think it would be prudent to trade for a back-end starter. Mitre isn’t very good and it’d be nice to have someone eat innings before Wang gets back. I think it would be very imprudent to trade for Halladay. He’s not worth the price.

  111. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    I think Joba and Montero together is simply too much to give up. It’s really as simple as that.

    I don’t think the potential reward–which comes with no guarantee beyond 2010–is worth it.

    If you tell me that the Yankees would have Halladay through 2013 or 2014, you might be able to convince me. But not as is.

    ****

    SJ, CB or anyone in the know–I was hoping I could get a good scouting report on Kelvin DeLeon?

    All BA’s telling me is that he was the prospect the Yanks’ were caught skimming.

    Cheers.

  112. ariel July 15th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    An entire decade is one year away from ending without a WS banner flowing above the Stadium (new and old)….and on Cashman’s watch. It’s a no-brainer for Tampa.

  113. SJ44 July 15th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    There has been missing velocity all year. Its also been well documented taking advice is not Joba’s current strength.

    These are not newsflashes Pete is putting forth. Its been in place all year.

    Doesn’t mean he can’t turn it around and be very, very good.

    However, to predict with certainty he can is not something everybody is willing to buy into at the present time.

    One guy is uncertain with possible big upside (Joba).

    The other guy is a known entity (Doc) that you have 1 1/2, more like 4 1/2, more years to have.

    Merits on both sides of the argument which is the best way to go.

    Young isn’t always better and even if they got Doc, there is no guarantee they are winning anything.

    At some point, you have weigh it all, make a call, and hope you are correct in your assessment.

  114. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    SJ your points are well and good, but don’t take into account that neither CC nor Santana were under contract for another season after their trades.

    Everyone on this blog right now needs to read this article, and then stop talking about Roy… because he’s going to the NL or he’s going NOWHERE.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....rade-value

  115. CB July 15th, 2009 at 10:55 am

    “So when joba throws 7 innings with 8ks and 2 runs in his next outing everyone will COMPLETLEY change their mind. ”

    Yes.

    There’s no question – if the Halladay rumors had come up immediately after Joba threw that game in Cleveland people would have laughed at the idea of trading him.

  116. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    the Yankees aren’t like other teams in regards to “mortgaging the future.” We’re the wealthiest team in the largest market making by far the most money. The Brewers going for it with CC last season is much different than the Yankees going for it with Halladay this season.

    A perfect example is what will happen with Aroldis Chapman…the Yankees will be in it for his services REGARDLESS of whether or not they pick up Halladay now. There are a select few big market teams that could say that. On top of that, the Yankees will continue to make moves to sign major free agents and grow the farm system as they have the past couple of years, even while signing guys like CC, Tex, AJ, ARod, etc…

    So the idea that the Yankees are “mortgaging future success” by going for Halladay is really absurd

  117. G. Love July 15th, 2009 at 10:57 am

    I really love the fact that I coined the term “prospect hugger” and it’s survived and thrived.

    As for Halladay, I don’t agree with Pete about including Montero. The trade is going to hurt enough giving up Joba or Hughes and some of the other pieces.

    I just don’t give up a young power hitter in this day and age when power numbers are going to drop until the next undetectable PED comes into play.

    For the record, I don’t want Joba off the team but I would trade him for Halladay. I’d also trade him for Haren, Josh Johnson, Lincecum…basically any ACE starter in the bigs I would trade him for.

    He’s good enough to command an ace in a trade but he’s not an ace.

    To me, trading him or Phil, who could command an ace, is a smart use of your resources. You’re selling high on the young player who hasn’t proven whether they can be what the ace already is.

    For all the talk that we can trade for Halladay and he could decline or get hurt here the same goes for Joba and Phil. They both can get traded and stink or get injured at any moment.

    That’s baseball.

    This team needs starting pitching. Joba, Andy and Mitre are going to turn the pen into mush and they are going to do it fast.

    I hope the Yankees are in on Ian Snell like I read. That’s a good move by Cash to take a shot at a player like that.

    He also should take a shot at Bannister.

    With those two guys Joba or Phil shouldn’t even be in the discussion.

    With Halladay? We have to give one of them up.

    I’m convinced that the Red Sox are trading Buchholtz. I think it’s going to be for a hitter though.

    If it turns out that it’s for Halladay and we lost out because we prospect hugged Joba/Phil?

    When the Red Sox win the division this year and next and dominate in the post season I guarantee you that you won’t feel the same.

  118. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 10:57 am

    Hokiehill -

    The Yankees aren’t the wealthiest team. They’re just one of the handful of teams in baseball whose owners are willing to invest their money back into the franchise, rather than pocketing the revenue and going home.

  119. m July 15th, 2009 at 10:57 am

    Okay, so we pass on Halladay and sign…??

    Washburn? Davis? Still going to cost you.

    Haren? Josh Johnson? Really going to cost you.

    The point is why by the Volkswagen when you can get the Maybach’s available?

  120. Andrew July 15th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    “Again, does anybody the bullpen is going to hold up covering all of these innings? If your answer is “yes”, don’t make any deals.

    Then, when the bullpen falls apart in August and September, don’t whine about “Cashman holding pat”.”

    How is this a valid argument for getting Halladay? The rotation has gone through a stretch where they’ve had a starter limited to 65 pitches hold one of the spots, as well as 2 guys post short outings back-to-back, so yes the bullpen has been taxed in the near-term. However, I don’t really buy that this will keep happening over and over again unless Roy Halladay is acquired, and I don’t see how it is so insufficient to both acquire another back-of-the-rotation type arm and still give the people in the rotation struggling a chance to improve their performance.

    Furthermore, there is no proof that Cashman is intent to “hold pat”, and in fact he pretty much never just holds pat at the trading deadline so it is completely off-base to imply that this is going to happen just because the team has not been openly linked to chasing Halladay and some people don’t want them to trade for Halladay. I am pretty much 95% certain that the Yankees will make a trade in the next 2 weeks. I am also pretty certain it won’t be for Halladay.

  121. jpb1973 July 15th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    SJ, CB or anyone in the know–I was hoping I could get a good scouting report on Kelvin DeLeon?

    —————————————————-

    De Leon is hitting .360 for the GCL Yankees. Yesterday he hit his 4th home run of the young season (14 games). He’s still striking out a lot though.

  122. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    m, it makes absolutely perfect sense.

    out of the bullpen, where joba can throw harder, you can’t sit back on his breaking pitches and wait for him to send you strikes over the plate. when you have a pitcher that locates a 98mph fastball, you have to swing at all those dirty sliders out of the zone… there just isn’t enough time to react to a 90mph slider.

    Now that he isn’t throwing that hard, he needs to locate his slider, not just burn it in the dirt. You need to “pitch” as a starter, where as a reliever you can get by on pure “stuff”.

  123. jonnie July 15th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    “If the Yankees put Joba, Romine, Jackson, and McAllister on the table for Halladay, that’s a very strong offer and few, if any teams could match it.:

    If i were cashman i would do that deal but would JP?

  124. m July 15th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    *Why buy the VW when you can get the Maybach?

  125. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    “De Leon is hitting .360 for the GCL Yankees. Yesterday he hit his 4th home run of the young season (14 games). He’s still striking out a lot though.”

    I know that, thanks though.

    I was hoping I could get something a little more detailed…like his potential upside, etc. Guy’s still at GCL so I don’t put too much stock in it, but he is raking.

  126. Tarheelyank July 15th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    I love Doc. And I am all for going, all in on this year. Especially because of reasons Pete mentioned, and the fact that it’s the First year in the new Yankee Stadium.

    But isn’t a package of Joba, Montero and Ajax worth more? Why is that We talk about overrating our prospects, what about overrating possible trade targets. Doc is really good, but not worth that trade.

  127. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    “The Yankees aren’t the wealthiest team. They’re just one of the handful of teams in baseball whose owners are willing to invest their money back into the franchise, rather than pocketing the revenue and going home.”

    Good job missing the point of my entire post to pick out that little nugget and have something to argue about….just curious which teams have more money to spend than the Yankees every season?

  128. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    “out of the bullpen, where joba can throw harder, you can’t sit back on his breaking pitches and wait for him to send you strikes over the plate. when you have a pitcher that locates a 98mph fastball, you have to swing at all those dirty sliders out of the zone… there just isn’t enough time to react to a 90mph slider.”

    There is no guarantee that if you put Joba back in the bullpen he’ll find the same velocity he had before the Yankees took him out.

    Besides, why would the Yankees want to create yet another hole in their rotation?

  129. henner July 15th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    @Paul from Cali — then its easy: cashman should say the yankees wont be involved w/o the ability to negotiate long term. ricciardi will be put in a corner and either have to make a trade w/o the biggest fish in the sea or will have to leave that stance and say that he will allow teams to negotiate

  130. m July 15th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    Tom B,

    Doesn’t explain why he can’t work with the catchers.

    How much longer can Joba get away with a Daisuke-type of WHIP?

    Take this problem to the minors and fix it.

    Phil had to do it, Buccholz had to do it. You do it to protect the kids’ mentality.

  131. SJ44 July 15th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    Patrick,

    No bullpen holds up to that overuse. It didn’t last year.

    Starters have to go deeper into games or the bullpen gets exposed. Especially against good teams. That was the theme of the entire weekend in Anaheim. Its been the theme in most of the 8 losses to Boston. You can’t keep surviving short starts from 3/5ths of your rotation for an entire season.

    If you believe this bullpen is going to hold up with starters 3-4-5 pitching 12-14 of a possible 21 innings per week, we will agree to disagree.

    That leaves you a situation in which CC and AJ cannot afford any slump because there is no safety net for them not to give them 7+ per start. That’s not going to work.

    Rebecca,

    DeLeon, IMO, is the best all around OF prospect among all of the OF’s in the Yankee organization.

    He projects as a corner OF and possesses all of the natural ability to be a fast mover in the system.

    He has a lot of power for a young guy, is very athletic, terrific throwing arm, and early reports say he is a hard worker.

    In the GCL, its not about working counts so, walks aren’t the issue right now. At that stage of development, you want him to be aggressive and gradually work him into learning better pitch recognition and the strikezone.

    Next year in Charleston will be an interesting test.

    I think he’s a kid that’s going to finish 2010 in Tampa. If that’s the case, he’s in Trenton in 2011 and folks are really going to be excited from what they see in him.

  132. jpb1973 July 15th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    “De Leon is hitting .360 for the GCL Yankees. Yesterday he hit his 4th home run of the young season (14 games). He’s still striking out a lot though.”

    I know that, thanks though.

    I was hoping I could get something a little more detailed…like his potential upside, etc. Guy’s still at GCL so I don’t put too much stock in it, but he is raking.

    —————————————————-

    What more is there to know he’s a 6’2″ eighteen year old outfielder with 5 tool potential but is very raw.

  133. joe b July 15th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    If you get Halladay, who will you blame this time when you don’t reach and win the World Series. CC, AJ, Damon, Posada, Jeter, Swisher, Girardi or some other scapegoat. Or maybe Mr. April..A-Rod.

  134. mattyinnj July 15th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    I’m sorry but Joba is on the block if you ask me, what about brad halsey, Eric Milton, Tyler clippard, and other can’t miss prospects in recent years, they havent done a thing. If you can get halladay for atleast the next year and a half at the top of his game with cc, and AJ you gotta do it. Fans forget that during the dynasty run that watson and cashman traded away young prospects to bring in pieces such as cecil fielder, David justice, grame lyod, chuck knoblauch, and yes Paul O’Neil( who i heard nothing but uproar when we sent Roberto kelly packing and what did he do). Bottom line hughes has showed fight and maturity that joba hasn’t and he is older the hughes, and stop with the upside that left when he was moved from the setup role where he was dominant and looked to be set for sucess like another former college starting pitcher Jonathan paplebon who is now one of the elite closers.

  135. dennis July 15th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    no Montero under any circumstances. I think Josh Johnson is a much easier get and the Marlins need outfield helps and catcher help so bye Ajax, Romine add Melancon, Zmac,De la Rosa.

  136. Joe from Long Island July 15th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    SJ is right about getting a SP to give the pen a break. And break is what will happen if you get too many SPs going 4-5 innings.

    I still think they Yanks can get Halladay by taking on Rios’s contract. And they do need OFs. They’re not resigning Damon or Matsui, and you can’t go forward with Brett, Melky, AJ and Swish.

    As has been said many times before on this blog, the Yankees have a lot of money. They should use that advantage to shelter as many talented young players as possible – not all, but as many as possible.

    And I would hold on to Phil – Joba’s “stuff” may be better, but Phil is looking like he’s got the better head. And how many times does a pitcher’s head matter more than his stuff – a lot. You need only look to Aceves right now to answer that. He doesn’t necessarily have the best stuff, but, like Girardi says, he knows how to pitch.

  137. Brian July 15th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    subtract montero and give me wells contract

  138. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    “Good job missing the point of my entire post to pick out that little nugget and have something to argue about….just curious which teams have more money to spend than the Yankees every season?”

    I wasn’t picking out something to argue about. I was just saying that the Yankees don’t have the most money in baseball. They make the most money because of the market they are in, so they are able to sustain the expenses they incur. But, there are 5 or 6 owners that are far wealthier than Steinbrenner, who have the financial capabilities of spending on par with the Yankees, they just choose not to.

    No disrespect at all, I wasn’t merely trying to pick an argument with you. I agree with the fact that by trading for Halladay that we aren’t necessarily mortgaging the future, depending on if we completely strip our farm system to get him.

  139. Coach6423 July 15th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    So we are built to win now, but what happens if you trade your best arm, and your best bat, and your most athletic player in the farm, and dont win?

  140. Richie July 15th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    Anyone who thinks that Joba is holding back his velo has forgotten how hard Joba threw as a starter last season.

  141. Mo July 15th, 2009 at 11:05 am

    The Yankees do not need another ace to win a world series this year. They have an ace, and a good number 2, and I am pretty confident that Joba and Andy can be solid as 4 and 5. The problem with the pitching is that Wang was supposed to be the three, and now they need that type of guy. Trading two or more top prospects for Halladay would be silly.

    Also, Pete, I’m pretty sure that you are overstating what it would take to get Halladay. He is less valuable than Santana was, and Johan got traded for four solid prospects, only one of whom was a top 30 type guy. Why the Yankees would need to give up two top 10 type guys (Joba and Montero), another top 50 guy in Jackson, and more is beyond me. A more realistic deal is something like Joba or Hughes, Jackson, Romine, and a high risk high reward type in the lower minors, take your pick. There you have three top prospects, with 2 of them being top 50 guys and another a top 100 guy, plus a high ceiling kid.

  142. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    “There is no guarantee that if you put Joba back in the bullpen he’ll find the same velocity he had before the Yankees took him out.”

    Well put Rebecca. He simply isn’t that same pitcher anymore. He’s at least 20 lbs heavier in the mid-section than he was as a Rookie out of the pen and he seems to have not conditioned his body enough after last season.

    Besides, the Yankees already have a guy in the bullpen who throws a low to mid 90′s fastball with little movement, but still thinks he’s throwing the ball well. His name is Brian Bruney.

  143. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Here are a few predictions for the second half:

    Joba isn’t going anywhere, he’ll be in the rotation until the end of the regular season.

    Wang will make more starts this year for the Yankees.

    Halladay will get traded to the Phillies.

    The Yanks will make a trade for a mediocre starting pitcher but the pitcher won’t pitch well after being traded.

    Damaso Marte will return to the majors but he won’t be very good.

    Mark Melancon will become an important part of the bullpen.

    A-rod will have a very good second half.

    Yanks will win the division.

    Thoughts? Agree/Disagree? Any of your own predictions?

  144. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Sorry for the over-reaction…

    Owner wealth is one thing, but consistant income stream is another. Even teams with wealthier owners could not sustain the sallaries that the Yankees are able to pay year in and year out.

  145. CB July 15th, 2009 at 11:08 am

    “Again, does anybody the bullpen is going to hold up covering all of these innings? If your answer is “yes”, don’t make any deals.”

    The yankees as a team have thrown 787 innings this year so far.

    The bull pen has thrown 283.

    So the bull pen has thrown 36% of all the team’s innings.

    That includes innings to make up for all of Wang’s short starts.

    Last year the bull pen threw 39% of the team’s innings.

    36% is a lot but it’ not wholly unmanageable in any respect. Once you get above 35% bull pen innings it becomes a strain.

    But a lot of the guys who threw those bull pen innings aren’t even on the team anymore.

  146. Richie July 15th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    Winning now usually means never winning.

    The strategy is dependent on over leveraging your future to win in the present, which makes no sense because it neglects the manifest fact that postseason success is largely a function of luck.

    Consequently, t’s a prescription for failure long term.

  147. jpb1973 July 15th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    subtract montero and give me wells contract

    ———————————————–

    Serously, thats probably the only way the Yanks make the deal. They need to save their top-line prospects for a trade with the Rockies to get Huston Street. Street is the more important get because he can ultimately replace Rivera.

    If 1 million people a year sign up for the Ynakees Universe fan club (@ $20 per person) That will raise the $100 million that is owed to Vernon wells over the next 5 years.

  148. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    SJ: Thanks, I appreciate it!

    I’m glad to know the strikeouts aren’t too much of a concern at that level–because otherwise I’d say it makes Ryan Howard look like Bobby Abreu!

  149. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    “Owner wealth is one thing, but consistant income stream is another. Even teams with wealthier owners could not sustain the sallaries that the Yankees are able to pay year in and year out”

    But, don’t you think if other owners spent their money to give players salaries to even compete with the Yankees in that sense, their income stream would increase, because it would generate more interest in their team and attendance would go up, therefore they would increase their revenue?

  150. henner July 15th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    “Bottom line hughes has showed fight and maturity that joba hasn’t and he is older the hughes”

    Agreed — Cleveland series 2007: Hughes comes in and gives the yankees after clemens tanks; Chamberlain gets thwarted by midges

  151. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    Doesn’t explain why he can’t work with the catchers.

    Its also been well documented taking advice is not Joba’s current strength.

    These are not newsflashes Pete is putting forth. Its been in place all year.
    —————-

    I’ll ask again, where has anyone… other than pete, said ANYTHING like this to be true? Oh that’s right, no where. You guys only see comments like that on this blog and take it as gospel, where in reality it makes no sense at all.

    And rebecca, i’m not talking about sending joba to the pen. all i’m stating is that there is a REASON for the lack of velocity, it is no great mystery. what he needs to do is learn how to “pitch” and not just rely on the velocity of his FB and the bite of his Slider to get him through the game. is the majors the place to do that? no probably not, but that would be a lot easier to deal with if wang was in the rotation. we have to deal with what we have available instead of these pipedream trades for the best pitcher in baseball.

  152. Andrew July 15th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Patrick I agree with all of your predictions, except I don’t think Marte pitches again for the Yankees this year–seems like they are just going to try their best to protect his arm for the final 2 years of his deal.

    I am hoping Cashman swings a deal for Bannister and Ron Mahay from KC to add to both the rotation and pen. And, I would not be surprised if neither guy pitched that well in NY, but they are both worth a shot. I like Bannister’s approach and I think he would do well as the new #4-5, depending on who remains in the rotation out of the Pettitte/Joba/Mitre/eventually Wang mix.

  153. Matt July 15th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Stop with the nonsense “but Wang hasn’t thrown yet you can’t rely on him!”

    Wang isn’t throwing yet because that was the SCHEDULE. He’s not injured “worse” than they thought, this is EXACTLY what they expected.

    You can’t make a knee jerk move, which is what this is. When Wang comes back towards the beginning of August, he will be like a trading deadline acquisition, except he comes without the cost of your top prospects. And don’t act like he can’t do anything because of his first 3 or 4 starts. He was looking like he was nearly his normal self again before the injury, and since he will build up his stamina properly this time, I fully expect him to get closer to his past form.

    Teams have injuries, sometimes you have to use your depth and wait it out. Trading your top prospects for Roy Halladay, who in case you didn’t notice has not been his normal self since his injury, is a stupid move that will burn you in a few years when Joba pulls it together and dominates the league for 10 years.

    Is Halladay the better option to win the World Series this year? Of course. But you certainly don’t NEED him, and stop with the stupid “Jeter and Posada want a ring” argument. I’d rather see this team win for 10 more years than see those two get one more ring. You can’t transition from the veteran players without having the strong core of pitching to build a new team around.

    Sabathia, Burnett, Wang, Joba, Hughes. This rotation could potentially stick together for the next 4-5 years, and quite frankly, you don’t need anything more than this to win. Don’t mortgage the future for a guy who in 3-4 years will probably not be much better than Joba. I would trade Joba for Santana in his prime, but Halladay right now is at the end of his prime and hasn’t proven that he is back from injury yet.

  154. JP July 15th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Halladay and Wells…

    For

    Joba, Melky, Romine, Pena

    I get a starter back…a cheap CF…and future catcher…and a good defensive SS..

    and save about $35 MM a year…

    Should I do it?

  155. m July 15th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Joba isn’t going anywhere, he’ll be in the rotation until the end of the regular season. (Great, if Joba shows improvement)

    Wang will make more starts this year for the Yankees. (maybe, but later than everyone expects. he needs to really rehab this time, and don’t mess with the shoulder)

    Halladay will get traded to the Phillies. (Yankees)

    The Yanks will make a trade for a mediocre starting pitcher but the pitcher won’t pitch well after being traded. (only if his name is mitre, and he’ll do better than I expected)

    Damaso Marte will return to the majors but he won’t be very good. (I think he’ll be decent with moderate usage)

    Mark Melancon will become an important part of the bullpen. (not seeing it right now, maybe he’ll replace Robertson)

    A-rod will have a very good second half. (this I can see)

    Yanks will win the division. (this I can definitely see)

  156. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    “If you believe this bullpen is going to hold up with starters 3-4-5 pitching 12-14 of a possible 21 innings per week, we will agree to disagree. ”

    Well I never said that did I? I said that I think the bullpen will hold up. I followed that up by saying I think Joba and possibly Pettitte will improve. I followed THAT up by saying I think Wang will contribute.

    Obviously I am saying here that I think the Yankee starters will be better and thus the bullpen won’t blow up.

    Also, how exactly did the bullpen not hold up last year? I believe they had a 3.79 ERA in 2008. That’s not holding up?

  157. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 11:13 am

    “The yankees as a team have thrown 787 innings this year so far.

    The bull pen has thrown 283.

    So the bull pen has thrown 36% of all the team’s innings.”

    And how many of those innings are Aceves’ responsibility?

    This is where Aceves becomes so valuable for the Yankees–because he has saved the short relievers untold innings pitched. It means they are less exposed, and thus less overused.

  158. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 11:13 am

    richie, he also hurt himself throwing that hard as a starter, didn’t he…

  159. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 11:13 am

    “Patrick I agree with all of your predictions, except I don’t think Marte pitches again for the Yankees this year–seems like they are just going to try their best to protect his arm for the final 2 years of his deal. ”

    The reason I included that prediction is he just started a rehab assignment and is on his way back.

  160. kph July 15th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    Amazing that Pete has demanded that Joba remain a starter, where he has not been nearly as good as he was as a reliever, and now, has used that lack of success to justify using him as trade bait for Halladay.

  161. m July 15th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    Tom B,

    You’re right. Joba’s got no problems, everything is free and easy out there.

    There are zero issues with Joba and I’m totally overreacting.

  162. disco stu July 15th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    I agree with other posters who have said that the fact that Halladay is 32 should not be a concern.

    Doc does not rely on the velocity of his pitches as his primary weapon for getting hitters out the way a power pitcher would. So whether he is 32 or 35 or 37 does not make that much of a difference in my mind. Greg Maddux continue to a terrific pitcher as he advanced thru his 30′s and I see Halladay as a longer, lankier version of him.

    So this notion that he is 32 and in 5 years will be 37 and a shell of what he is now is unfounded.

    To quote Ron Darling, Roy Halladay is a “pitching savant”

  163. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    “Amazing that Pete has demanded that Joba remain a starter, where he has not been nearly as good as he was as a reliever, and now, has used that lack of success to justify using him as trade bait for Halladay”

    If Joba pitched as good as a starter as he did as a reliever, he’d be the incarnation of Cy Young, Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan morphed into one body lol

  164. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 11:16 am

    m, maybe you aren’t overreacting, but you certainly aren’t watching him pitch either. or reading anything i’ve posted. good job.

  165. Lance kick July 15th, 2009 at 11:16 am

    Montero goes no where, a bat like his hasn’t come out of Venezuela since Miguel Cabarera.

  166. Andrew July 15th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    He is actually pitching in the minors now, Marte? Not just playing catch in Tampa for the zillionth time? Okay then, well I suppose that would lessen the need to acquire another reliever, lefty or not. But, I am definitely not sold that he will be healthy and effective once he returns.

    I am also more confident in Melancon than it seems like people on here are. I could see him performing better than Robertson and actually gaining some Girardi trust for the dreaded “high leverage situation” in the 2nd half, perhaps passing Bruney if he keeps stinking it up out there.

  167. G-C July 15th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    I would rather lose for the next three years than win with three mercenaries at the front of my rotation.

  168. G. Love July 15th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    I just wonder how many of the current Yankee fans were embarrassed and thought it was too much in 1999 when our rotation was;

    Clemens (acquired by trade)
    Pettitte (homegrown)
    Cone (acquired by trade)
    El Duque (we outbid everyone else)
    Irabu (trade with SD)

    In 1998 our rotation was;

    Wells (free agent)
    Cone (acquired by trade)
    Pettitte (homegrown)
    El Duque (we outbid everyone else)
    Irabu (trade with SD)

    How’s that for some perspective on how a championship rotation was built.

  169. Aura July 15th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    Are we discounting the conspiratorial idea that someone on Toronto’s coaching staff noticed that Halladay is breaking down and that’s why they are in such a hurry to deal him?

  170. Laura - And the Oscar goes to....Optimus Prime!! July 15th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    Trading Montero would be a step back for the Yankees. They had finally gotten out of the mode of depleting their farm system. Plus, who knows how well Halladay would perform in pinstripes? The guy plays in TOR, where there is zero pressure compared to the pressure there is in NYC. He could get here and stink up the joint.

    As an aside, I hate to admit it, but if I had to choose between dealing Joba and dealing Hughes, I’d deal Joba. He really hasn’t impressed me so far and I don’t know if he ever will again. Also, who knows – TOR may not even want Joba after the way he’s pitched so far this season. They probably will insist on Hughes. If we can see Phil’s upside, I’m sure they can as well.

    Cashman, if you are listening, don’t deal Montero!! Don’t mortgaging away the future.

  171. Matt July 15th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    If Aceves is in the pen, they will most certainly hold up since he will eat up some of those shorter starts and won’t force you to go to all the short relievers. You are acting like these guys consistently go 4 innings. Why don’t you look at the actual game log for each of these starters?

    And that also involves you completely assuming that Mitre won’t cut it whatsoever at the big league level, which is not a given considering he wasn’t far off from average while he was pitching a full season for the Marlins back in 2007. Until his last 2 starts, Joba had been pitching into the 6th inning nearly every time out, and Pettitte other than a few starts lately has done the same. Stop exaggerating.

  172. Laura - And the Oscar goes to....Optimus Prime!! July 15th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    mortgaging = mortgage.

    Apparently, I’m still half asleep. :P

  173. Patrick from CT July 15th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    The Yankees do need another starting pitcher, that much is vary clear.
    It would appear that Hughes and Ace are staying in the Pen. This Mitre fellow is a #5 at best. Andy has already thrown 108 innings so he has at best 90 left for the second half. Joba has thrown about 90 and maybe has 60 to reach his limit. Wang is hurt and not coming back for a month.
    If the Yankees don’t make a move, Wang doesn’t come back effective we’ll be seeing Igawa soon.
    Pesonally I’d like to see Halladay go to the NL and the Yankees hold on to their young guys.
    BUT the Yankees NEED to make the playoff and Halladay is the best pitcher available.

  174. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    G.Love,

    The only thing your post proved to me was that apparently 5th starters don’t really matter that much haha

  175. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    “richie, he also hurt himself throwing that hard as a starter, didn’t he…”

    I don’t have any sort of degree in medicine, but I don’t think it was starting itself that hurt Joba.

    My argument would be that stretching him out midseason as the Yankees did probably aggravated an injury that was already budding, and the last straw was the start in Texas.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m of the belief that unless you have some extremely violent immediate action, rotator cuff injuries are injuries that build over time.

  176. Patrick Bateman July 15th, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Your whole point about Jeter, Rivera, and Posada in a “win now” mode was the exact same situation last year but you were against a trade for Johan Santana, yet now you’re advocating a trade for a pitcher who is 4 years older?

    Doesn’t make much sense at all.

  177. Matt July 15th, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Pettitte- Averaging 5.98 IP/start
    Joba- Averaging 5.52 IP/start excluding 0.2 IP start where he was knocked out due to injury.

    It’s not like these guys are going 4 IP every start, and Pettitte had two starts under 5 IP lately or it’d be even higher. He is consistently going 6 for the most part.

    For comparison:

    Sabathia- 6.75 IP/start
    Burnett- 6.31 IP/start

  178. Laura - And the Oscar goes to....Optimus Prime!! July 15th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    One more thing…for the record, I don’t believe this deal will happen either. I don’t think that the Yankees want to increase the payroll. More importantly, I think that they believe that we already have what we need to win. And they are right. We don’t need Halladay to win. We need our current players to man up and play like they are capable of playing (especially the pitchers).

  179. Mark in Tampa July 15th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    G Love,

    Not to nit-pick, and your point is a good one nonetheless, but I seem to remember that most teams were turned off after watching El Duque’s workout and the Yanks didn’t have all that much to bid against.

  180. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    “Are we discounting the conspiratorial idea that someone on Toronto’s coaching staff noticed that Halladay is breaking down and that’s why they are in such a hurry to deal him?”

    No, but it’s much, much, much more likely that Toronto wants to deal Halladay because they are looking to cut payroll so they can sell the team.

    Wells’ contract is frankly probably immovable, so the Jays are stuck with it, but Halladay, Rios and Rolen would all be attractive to the right buyers, and the Jays can get some cost-controlled prospects in return.

  181. jennifer July 15th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    I would be more willing to give up Joba at this point than Phil. You are correct Joba is a hard head, and apparently isn’t listening to anyone. He has so many experienced people on this staff, why not listen? He should be a sponge at this point. He went from the wide eyed young kid in 07′ the the kid too cool for school. Seems like too much of the hype went to his head.

  182. Vincent July 15th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    I agree Pete. Nothing is guaranteed, but they sure do look like World Series locks if you add Halladay to the mix. Plus, they have him for next year too!

    You win in the post-season with a great bullpen. If the starters keep leaving after 5 or 6 then that bullpen will be toast come October.

    Make the move, get Halladay. They won’t do it though because it is totally against Cashman’s philosophy and they don’t want Joba pitching against them.

    They have the means to get this done though.

  183. Mike July 15th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    Its not the end of the world if we dont’ land Halladay. HOWEVER —

    Cashman needs to make a trade for a reliable starter! Somebody that can win 10 games and eat up innings.

  184. m July 15th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    Tom B,

    Pete is as good a source for info as any other.

    You’re not going to hear a peep from Girardi, Posada, or any of the catchers about what goes on.

    Pete’s not always right in his opinions, but his info’s pretty good in my book. So if he says Joba has an unwillingness to listen to others, that’s all I need to confirm what we’ve all seen with our own eyes.

  185. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 11:24 am

    “It’s not like these guys are going 4 IP every start, and Pettitte had two starts under 5 IP lately or it’d be even higher. He is consistently going 6 for the most part. ”

    Take a look at the blog post I wrote last night (click my name).

    Pettitte started the season by going into the 6th or more innings in nine straight starts, but has dropped off considerably since then.

    His ERA was 2.95 at the end of April; it’s now 4.85. It’s concerning because Pettitte has been getting progressively worse each month–perhaps a sign of his body no longer being able to keep up with pitching once every five days.

  186. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    “Cashman needs to make a trade for a reliable starter! Somebody that can win 10 games and eat up innings.”

    You mean Alfredo Aceves?

  187. Jean from da bx July 15th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    Does anyone else find it odd that they didn’t start talking about trading Halladay until he came off the DL from the groin injury and had two sub-Halladay starts? I think trading him for Joba and Montero or any combination of top prospects is a disaster. Cashman held onto Hughes, Kennedy (<–why?), and Chamberlain when a healthy Santana was on the free agent market. him trading for Halladay would defeat the purpose of that; I thought Cash was trying build up the farm system with arms for OUR team, not to trade for the "sexy" pitcher of the moment. I will say that having Halladay would inadvertently help Burnett, not that he really "needs" it

    ps I'd be okay with trading Kennedy and two catching/ fielding type prospects, but not Montero. and throw the jays some cash in tha trade too, and i could stomach that

  188. Rich July 15th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    I agree with you. I would make the third player (or fourth) either Damon or Matsui. I know you are saying that $7 million is nothing, but may look good to get some $ off the books. Plus both are fringe players in a walk year.
    I also think that the Blue Jays would want another pitcher.

  189. G. Love July 15th, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Ramey,

    Just saying…we won championships with “mercenaries”. Cone was actually one of the biggest ones. He was a gun for hire for contenders for awhile there. And as much as Irabu was reviled, he was actually a decent #5 with that pen since the 1-4 guys gave length.

    And the rest of you really need to knock it off with the “Set the franchise back 10 years” nonsense and the “we stopped depleting the farm system” stuff.

    What minor leaguer did we trade that turned out to be amazing?

    The best player we’ve traded away in recent years was Soriano for Arod.

    Outside of that, no one else has become a star…and don’t give me Dioner Navarro as an example.

    It is most definitely a myth that we trade away all the precious little gumdrops of minor league prospect goodness that then go on to super stardom with another team.

  190. RON ALMAGOR July 15th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Ricciardi would NEVER take this deal. Joba’s stock is way down, prospects are exactly that…prospects. Trading Halladay to the Yankees is something the Jays are going to avoid….this deal is just not rich enough.

  191. 86w183 July 15th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    I would be very surprised if Montero is moved. He appears to be one of the best hitting prospects they’ve ever developed not just a possible DH. I do believe a four man package for Halladay will have to conclude Romine and Pena or Nunez.

    Then it comes down to whether Toronto wants an “A” (Joba/Hughes) and a “C” (Kontos/Clagett) pitcher. OR two “B” (McAllister/Robertson/Melancon/Betances/Brackman) pitchers.

  192. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Considering the possibility that this is Andy’s last year, we don’t know what we will get from Wang in the future and the general lack of proven starters under 25, this move makes all the sense in the world. For this year and beyond. Don’t get too attached to prospects when you have a difference maker ready TODAY. He’s been dominant in the AL East so I’m not worried about any transition.

    I completely agree with Peter’s proposal.

  193. RS July 15th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    All you people who want Halladay will be sorry when Lincecum/Felix/Grienke/Josh Johnson become FA’s at the age of 25-28 and the Yankees don’t go after them because they have 35-year old Halladay AND Burnett in the rotation.

  194. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    Rebecca -

    I don’t think it’s a matter of health at all for Pettitte. It’s a matter of where his games were pitched. In April, 3 of his 4 starts were on the road, where he has pitched considerably better this season.

    In May 4 of his 6 starts were at home. In June 3 of his 5 starts were at home. I don’t think it’s a matter of health at all for Andy. I think he’s perfectly healthy, he’s just been a victim of the New Yankee Stadium.

    Outside of his start against the Angels last weekend, he had only pitched poorly one other time this season on the road and that was in Atlanta.

  195. G. Love July 15th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    Mark in Tampa,

    That may be right, I’m fuzzy on the details other than the raft trip escape from Cuba, but the fact was that El Duque was bought. He wasn’t drafted. He barely spent any real time in the minors if I recall.

    It was like buying a #2 starter off the rack or the raft, as it were.

  196. upstate kate July 15th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    I am not ready to give up on Joba yet. David Price is having a similar year and the Rays are not talking about sending him to the bull pen or trading him.

    Phil Hughes has worked hard and done whatever has been asked of him. I wouldn’t trade him either.

  197. jon July 15th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    no.

  198. Brian Cashman July 15th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    definitely not

  199. GGBG July 15th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    I don’t understand the “Joba can’t throw hard as a starter” argument at all. He’s had three or four games where he has thrown VERY hard for his time out there – Cleveland, Boston to name two.

    I think SJ44 has it right. It’s about conditioning – and therefore work – with him. His mechanics get out of whack because he’s not as strong as he should be…so he can’t get to that velocity with regularity.

    In any case, I have no problem dealing him for Halladay. I’d rather not deal Montero and think the deal should be either Joba or Hughes or Montero, pick one and then any two other prospects. Melancon, Romine, Brackman, AJAX, any of them.

    It’s not a knock on those guys. It’s Doc. You get him and they can starting booking the parade. Who in baseball is beating CC, Doc, AJ in a 3/5 or 4/7 games? Come on….

  200. David July 15th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    The way I look at this is, the Yankees MUST get Roy Halladay. If they don’t and another AL East team or the Angels get him, the Yankees might not win for several years to come. Yes Montero is one of the best out there, but pitching wins championships and to let Boston or LA have this guy would severely limit the Yankees chances for not only this year, but future years to come.

  201. G. Love July 15th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    By the way, when we traded for the rights to Irabu with SD we traded a prospect named Ruben Rivera who many will recall was supposed to be the biggest can’t miss CF prospect around and was destined to become the next great Yankee CF.

    How’d that turn out?

  202. eric July 15th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    @ Tom B — he sat 95/96 as a starter last year and is now 90, 91, dipping as low as 89. That’s a huge difference.

  203. GreenBeret7 July 15th, 2009 at 11:32 am

    It’s one thing to have a trade hurt both teams. It’s another thing to have it become sadistic torture and suicide chamber. There is no pitcher today worth that. In the last 45 years, a 25 year old Sandy Koufax comes the closest, especially when any one of those players that our benevolent host choses to sacrifice has more value than what the entire group of slugs the mets gave up for Santana or what the received back in 1977 for Tom Seaver.

  204. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 11:32 am

    “Outside of his start against the Angels last weekend, he had only pitched poorly one other time this season on the road and that was in Atlanta.”

    Yeah, but his last few road starts WERE Atlanta and Anaheim. I think being on the road helps Andy, but I don’t think it helps him THAT much.

    It’s a pretty damning thing if you can’t hold a four run lead.

  205. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 11:32 am

    The 1980s Yankees traded away a lot of young talent for a chance to win the big one. Many of them didn’t work out very well.

    - Doug Drabek for Rich Rhoden

    - Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps

    - Bob Tewksbury for Steve Trout

    - Fred McGriff for Dale Murray

    - Willie McGee for Bob Sykes

    - Al Leiter for Jesse Barfield

    Nobody is saying the team has to develop their entire starting nine and their pitching staff through their farm system.

    But GMs have to be smart about it and know when to say “no” and not get reckless trading some of their best chips away.

    How much better do you think the Yanks would have been in the 80s and early 90s if they had not traded so many of these “kids” away?

  206. m July 15th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html

    Jackson was on dan patrick today. Wacky stuff.

  207. betsy July 15th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Patrick, I don’t see how you can possibly think the Yankees can make the playoffs with this rotation. IMO, wishing and hoping that Joba and Andy are going to improve is just begging for trouble. The odds are that Andy won’t – he’s what he is. Joba? Of course he can, and no way am I giving up on him, but we’re talking about this year – and the possibility exists (maybe even the probability) that he will not turn it around this year. Then, we have the Wang spot that is up in the air. The first to games in Anaheim were perfect examples of what can and will happen to the Yankees if they proceed with this rotation. The offense did it’s job – in fact, they more than did it’s job. They got substantial leads – the SP simply blew them. It places an enormous burden on the offense to continue to come back (which they did in both games) – and it’s not fair. This is a very good Yankee team – like all teams, they need their tweaks. They need 2 SP – does one of them have to be Doc? No, but IMO if you can get him, you try. That said, you do not give up the farm; if the price is too high, you just walk away (and hope beyond hope the Sox don’t get him).

  208. JeterJobafan July 15th, 2009 at 11:36 am

    G. Franco, July 15th, 2009 at 10:21 am
    “I hope those who continue to bludgeon Joba to death on this board aren’t going to scratch and claw their way back on the bandwagon when he does turn things around.

    I mean, Yankee fans wouldn’t do that, would they?

    Whether he does it this season or next, Joba will eventually turn things around and make a lot of people writing him off look pretty foolish.”
    ——————————————————
    Franco and I are on the same page on the Joba issue. Someone of these pages mentioned Hughes struggles and there were some. But he is doing well now so kill Joba.

    1. While in rotation Phil was injured and pitched anyhow.
    2. In the rotation in 2007 – did poorly, sent back to the
    minors
    3. Had a good ST in 2009 but still sent down to AAA. Joba remains in the rotation.

    I am not disparaging Hughes. I simply want to point out that he has had his struggles before 2009 and was given ample time to recover his game.

    Joba deserves that same opportunity. He basically is in his sophomore year. Joba should have been sent down after he returned from DL last year instead of going from rotation to the pen. He has never, ever been sent down. That should speak for the regard that management has for his capacity to become a top of the rotation guy in a few years. Developed and monitored correctly both Joba and Phil will be top of the rotation pictures.

    I won’t debate who is the better pitcher because they both are valuable to the Yankees future.

    All I am asking is: Give Joba the same chance to recapture his electric pitching of 07 and 08. Hughes has been in the Yankee system longer than Joba and it took him until this year to find his skills again. Trading him could be a haunting to happen when he is right again. He also needs a new pitching coach, stat.

    Remember the good things about Joba and there are many, and just not focus on this year. Positive, people.

  209. Matt July 15th, 2009 at 11:36 am

    He is not sitting at 89-91 as a starter, stop looking at the TV guns and look at gameday for his starts.

    In his recent starts he was sitting 92-94 consistently, pumping it in there as high as 96-97 with runners on base later in games. It’s not his velocity, it’s his control and location. He relies too much on his breaking ball and never really establishes either pitch properly in his starts, and if his breaking ball is flat he gets crushed because he doesn’t trust anything but his offspeed pitches most of the time.

  210. m July 15th, 2009 at 11:36 am

    Oops, Reggie Jackson.

    Dan asked an interesting question, “Who’s the best player of the last 25 years?”

    You’ll be surprised at his answer, or maybe not.

    I haven’t been following baseball long enough to give an answer myself. What do you guys think?

  211. JasonR July 15th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    What’s the goal here, winning a championship or developing prospects?

    I don’t necessarily think Halladay to NYY happens, because I feel the Jays will avoid a trade within the division. But if they go for Joba/Montero/another prospect, then you have to make that deal.

    This isn’t any run of the mill pitcher, this is Roy Halladay.

  212. 86w183 July 15th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Now The Yanks shouldn’t trade for Halladay because of the FA pitching market that might exist three years from now?

    That’s beyond ridiculous.

    Matsui and Damon are not agreeing to go to Toronto. The only guy you can send there is Swisher, but Torontowould only do that if they were moving Rios or Wells to save even more $$$.

    What we don’t know is if Toronto’s ownership has ordered Ricciardi to move contracts off the books no matter what the return personnel-wise. The Yanks could get Doc and give up less if they took on one of those deals.

  213. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Halladay, since returning from the DL.

    3 games, 0-3 record, 20 innings, 4 homeruns, 4.50 ERA, Opponents hitting .288/.329/.450.

    Whoever trades for him is not guaranteed Halladay, the stud. Have we learned nothing?

    Pitchers = fragile.

    People would have DROOLED over the possibility of trading for Brandon Webb this past offseason. Even been willing to deal Hughes+Montero+Jackson. How would THAT have worked out?

    2 to 3 blue chippers for one almost-free agent trades NEVER WORK OUT.

  214. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 11:38 am

    “What’s the goal here, winning a championship or developing prospects”

    Winning multiple championships. I don’t want a one and done.

  215. JasonR July 15th, 2009 at 11:38 am

    “Dan asked an interesting question, “Who’s the best player of the last 25 years?”

    You’ll be surprised at his answer, or maybe not.

    I haven’t been following baseball long enough to give an answer myself. What do you guys think?”

    Barry Bonds, love him or hate him.

  216. Bill from NJ July 15th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    Hughes/Joba + Romine + Melancon.

    Do it Cash.

  217. Wanzies July 15th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    re: the prospects vs. mercenaries argument, a useful (?) link regarding BA’s historical prospects.

    http://www.baseballamerica.com.....-time.html

    Joba is 2008′s number 3, just as Montero is 2009′s 2nd half number 3. Reuben Rivera was 1996′s number 3. Since money is not an issue, I look for the next David Cone and dam* the torpedoes.

  218. betsy July 15th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    GF, I want to say that I really admire your stance on Joba and Phil. You are extremely consistent – and I appreciate that. I also agree with you to a degree – a strong degree. I don’t think, by the way, that most reasonable fans are giving up on Joba (I do agree that a lot of fans who trashed Phil, are the same ones singing is praises…..and vice versa for Joba) because they are annoyed and frustrated with him. It’s ok that he’s not the most mature kid in the world, but being 23 doesn’t give him a pass for being out of condition and stubborn. Phil is just turned 23 and he could never be accused of those things. If Joba has to go down to AAA (no pen for him – I agree), it does not mean the Yankees are giving up on him.

  219. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    “Yeah, but his last few road starts WERE Atlanta and Anaheim. I think being on the road helps Andy, but I don’t think it helps him THAT much.”

    It helps him considerably. Just look at the games he’s pitched on the road versus home. He’s allowed 3 runs or less in 5 of his 8 road starts. The other 3 starts were 4 runs against Boston and the aforementioned 6 runs allowed against Atlanta and Anaheim.

    At home Andy has allowed 3 runs or less in only 3 of his 10 starts. He’s also allowed 8 hits or more in half of his home starts.

    It’s like night and day for Andy. He’s a completely different pitcher on the road. Away from the Stadium Pettitte is a solid #3 starter, while pitching at home he’s a fringe #5 starter.

  220. G. Love July 15th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    “JasonR July 15th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    What’s the goal here, winning a championship or developing prospects? ”

    On this blog it’s developing prospects until the Yankees win a championship and then everyone loves every one of the moves we made to do that prospects be damned.

  221. Richard Kelly July 15th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    I believe joba is a good pitcher but I always believed Hughes will be better than him. The obsession fans have with power pitchers that strike out alot of batters is insane! We have a pitcher like that in Burnett and sabathia tends to love the strikeout batters outside of this year. When you get a chance to et a pither that not only eats innings but also doesn’t give up many runs in the process, you must get him. I like Jesus too but us Yankee fans need to be realistic and if we don’t win this year, everyone on the site and in yankee universe will undoubtedly upset. We are trying to win every year and seeing that Wang disappointed us this year we may have to trade someone and I think joba should be the one to go. I think aj and c.c. needs to get credit because at least they pitch to the six innings and most of the time beyond. I am not a general manager so I don’t know exactly what they should trade but I wouldn’t let joba stand in my way of getting the proven best player when no one knows how good of a starter joba will be. The reason why I would trade joba for doc instead of Johan is Santana to me is just a fastball change up pitcher and the older he gets, the more velocity he loses off his fastball which will close up the 18 mph difference that he has going right now.

  222. m July 15th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    JeterJobaFan,

    Good post, but it took so long for Hughes to find his stuff because of his injuries. After each injury he found his stuff. He’s just had physical setbacks. Once he got his legs back under him, he was back to old Phil. The difference now, is that something has clicked, and I think he’ll have no problem facing major league hitters.

    I’m willing to have patience with Joba, but only if he’s willing to accept the help that’s being offered. I don’t have patience for stubborn or bratty kids, in general.

  223. betsy July 15th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    I do wonder if the same people who refuse to give up on Joba now (understandably) are the same people who still kill the Yankees for not trading Phil for Santana…….ironic.

  224. Observer283 July 15th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    I like what someone posted about Josh Johnson. This is a much easier pill for me to sollow. He is young. He is great now. Will be great for a while. Will be cheaper than Halladay. Josh JOhnson is someone I feel comfortable giving up Joba and Jesus for. Halladay is not.

    Having Halladay, AJ, and CC would all but guarantee making the playoffs. It increases the chance that they perform well in the playoffs. It does NOT guarantee winning the World Series. Ask the Braves about rotations and World Series guarantees.

    Johnson improves the Yankees for the next year. Johnson would increase their chance of winning the world series in the next year and a half. Halladay would also accomplish these two tasks. The difference is, Johnson makes the Yankees better for the next DECADE. Halladay does not.

    CC and Tex were steps in the right direction in terms of getting players moving into their prime, rather than players who were moving out if it. Lets keep that trend going.

  225. 86w183 July 15th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    How many great ones are we supposed to list?

    The best players of the last 25 years are Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Rickey Henderson and Ken Griffey Jr.

  226. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    “By the way, when we traded for the rights to Irabu with SD we traded a prospect named Ruben Rivera who many will recall was supposed to be the biggest can’t miss CF prospect around and was destined to become the next great Yankee CF.

    How’d that turn out?”

    Really? Irabu?

  227. Matt July 15th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    You people seem to think that every team in baseball has a dominant 1-5 in the rotation who gives them 6+ IP every time out.

    Look at the contending teams’ rotations. The Red Sox ride their bullpen because they only have 2 reliable starters at the top, 1 who throws way too many pitches in Lester. Wakefield gives innings but not quality innings most of the time. Their last 2 are inconsistent in Smoltz and Penny.

    The Angels? Did you see us destroy their pitching this weekend? Saunders, Lackey, etc have all pitches to 4.50-5.00 ERA’s and haven’t given them a ton of innings lately. Santana has been erratic since returning from injury and Weaver is on most days a 6 inning pitcher at best.

    The Twins? None of their starters lasted 5 innings past us. Texas? Other than Millwood none of their starters go consistently deep.

    Dodgers? After Billingsly and Kershaw it’s question marks. Phillies? Even Hamels is a question mark lately. Milwaukee? Haha.

    The Yankees still have one of the best rotations in the league despite the problems, and when Wang comes back it will probably be the best with 3 guys at the top who go deep into games (Wang was throwing 65 pitches in 5-6 innings before he went down, when they build his stamina back up properly he will go deep too).

  228. JasonR July 15th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    “What’s the goal here, winning a championship or developing prospects”

    Winning multiple championships. I don’t want a one and done.”

    You don’t think a playoff rotation of Sabathia, Halladay, Burnett, Pettitte/Hughes (next year) is capable of winning more than one championship? Really?

    It’s not guaranteed of course, but neither is the dream farm system rotation of Joba/Hughes/Kennedy/Brackman/McCallister.

  229. Mike July 15th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    “Cashman needs to make a trade for a reliable starter! Somebody that can win 10 games and eat up innings.”

    You mean Alfredo Aceves?

    Rebecca –

    I dont’ think Aceves can get 10 wins . and hes not going to eat up innings. Plus we don’t want to mess with the bullpen ( where he belongs ) .

    Somebody like a Washburn would be nice. He’d be a Solid

  230. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    “But, don’t you think if other owners spent their money to give players salaries to even compete with the Yankees in that sense, their income stream would increase, because it would generate more interest in their team and attendance would go up, therefore they would increase their revenue?”

    Not really…sure the more successful a team becomes the more they will gain from ticket revenue, merchandise sales, etc…but to get to the level of Yankee income they would have to start their own network and have it almost immediately become a cash cow to compete with what the Yankees have going now. On top of that, there is no way a team like the Brewers (for a small market example) could ever expect the income stream the Yankees do, regardless of their payroll and success because the number of fans in the area is drastically smaller based on population = fewer fans buying team stuff

  231. YankeeRay July 15th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    CB and SJ, you both make compelling arguments.
    It’s too bad that Cash has only 2 weeks to make this decision.
    If Joba pitches good in his next outing then the no trade people will say see. If Joba pitches 4 1/3 in his next start or two then the trade people will say see.
    We also don’t even know how Toronto feels about Joba and or Hughes.
    Cash can’t make a decision based on the next start or two but the trend could continue with Joba or reverse which will make it harder on Cash. I’m sure he knows how he feels at this point and only if the offers are made public will we know.
    I am in the trade Joba camp but I don’t like the idea of trading Montero and Ajax. I would rather they try and get Rios or Wells if they have to and not give up as many prospects.
    All of this speculating will be decided soon and hopefully we add at least 1 starting pitcher as the ONE thing that is for certain is that our bullpen can’t handle the innings being put on them at this pace.

  232. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    And what, exactly, in Halladay’s career makes people think he can pitch in October?

  233. G. Love July 15th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    Wanzies,

    Great link. It’s pretty funny to see Ruben Rivera ranked higher than Derek Jeter in 1996.

  234. jennifer July 15th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    Funny isn’t Reggie the same guy complaining about Alex passing him since he used roids? Reggie annoys the you know what out of me. I can’t stand him. He is a pompass &&()&&

  235. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Yeah, Ace is not the answer to an innings eater, plus as we saw over the Angels series, the pen becomes a weakness as opposed to a strength with him out of it.

  236. Mike July 15th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Jason , i agree 100 percent

    “What’s the goal here, winning a championship or developing prospects”

    We are a win now franchise . Even if Montero does become good . .he’ll rot in Toronto anyways. And i’m sure we’ll come up a big hitter in the future to replace him.

  237. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    “And what, exactly, in Halladay’s career makes people think he can pitch in October?”

    You see something that says he can’t?

  238. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    Hokiehill-

    Fair enough. You make a good point.

  239. m July 15th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    Someone else,

    Really? That’s your argument?

    Halladay’s the only pitcher with more than 100 wins to never pitch in the playoffs. That’s somehow his fault?

  240. Tank July 15th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    THink of what would happen if Cashman pulled the trigger for Doc AND Wang gets himself right.

    CC/Doc/Wang/AJ/Pettite – That is mean rotation. That can go toe to toe with any rotation in baseball (**cough***Red Sox***). That matches up real well with Beckett/Lester/Wakefield/Penny/Smoltz. And Dice K if he ever gets figured out.

  241. YankeeRay July 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    This site is funny. The Marlins are looking to add right now not delete. They are not trading Josh Johnson this season.

  242. John Locke July 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    Very torn here.. I mean can the Yankees really get the best players year after year before enough is enough??!

    A couple of people here said that we have turned on Joba.. Nobody’s turned on him. I think we can all agree 100% that his 17 starts this year have been a huge disappointment. It seemed like every time he had the chance to take a step forward (the gm in BOS, the game in CLE), he took 2 steps back his next start. How does Joba have more upside than Phil Hughes??? 3 years ago, nobody knew who Joba was. There was no hype until maybe May or June of 07 and he was up here a few weeks later as we rushed him through the minors. Hughes has been talked about for 3-4 years as our #1 pitching prospect and now he is finally contributing. Not to mention that he almost pitched a no hitter in his first 10 starts. He has had bad luck the past 2 years but this year it’s all coming together. Phil or Philty as I call him has had much more seasoning in the minors than Joba did. The Yankees ruined Joba. We had a good thing and we tried to make it better. The back and forth nonsense last year, his lack of velocity is alarming as well.. I mean he can barely consistantly hit 93mph..

    I loved Joba.. But the Joba I loved may not exist anymore except in our memory. If you can get DOC without giving up Hughes…Go for it.

    And I’d do everything possible to not give up Jesus. But you can’t let that be the deal breaker especially considering all the catching prospects we have.

  243. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    “You don’t think a playoff rotation of Sabathia, Halladay, Burnett, Pettitte/Hughes (next year) is capable of winning more than one championship? Really?

    It’s not guaranteed of course, but neither is the dream farm system rotation of Joba/Hughes/Kennedy/Brackman/McCallister.”

    I guess you’re releasing Wang or trading him for a bag of balls?

    Halladay doesn’t provide any extra oomph to MAKE the playoffs.

    Playoffs = crap shoot. See: 2004 Cardinals (best team in the majors that year), 2006 Cardinals (not). Jeff Weaver kicked butt in the 2006 playoffs. So did Anthony Reyes. So did Jeff Suppan.

    Playoffs = crap shoot.

    Joba, Montero, Romine, Hughes, Jackson, whoever you brains think would be traded, all it takes is one of them to develop into his ceiling for the trade to be a bad one. See: Smoltz for Alexander.

  244. The Monk July 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    There’s something wrong with Joba. He’s simply not right in the head or the arm. His delivery has always been an issue and there are multiple scouts who have doubted his long-term upside because they foresee injury issues. The notion he has that he is throwing well is pure crap — he cannot get swinging strikes on fastballs at all. His velocity is weak. The Angels only waved at sliders.

    Hughes is a solid pitcher with a better head. He handles criticism and comes back wanting to improve. He went into a hitter’s park against a good hitting team and blanked them for 8 innings (Texas). Take away his disastrous start in Baltimore and he had good numbers as a starter. Joba can’t even reach the 8th this year. Hughes’ problems last year were all due to injury. Look at how well he pitched (generally) in 2007. And he’s still not 24.

    How can Montero be untouchable? The Yanks may have the best catching depth in the minors. They have A-Rod and Tex under contract until the mid 2010s, so they won’t have to worry about a guy with a power stroke. They’ll be able to restock the system or trade for young guys with pop if they need it. Seriously, you’d consider giving up on a pennant-race changing pitcher for a guy in AA ball who doesn’t provide defense at a defensive position? Mike Piazza is the greatest hitting catcher in baseball history. He was in the playoffs five times. How many World Series did he win?

    The same number as the RedSax from 1919-2003.

    Do you want to beat the Red Sawx this year and next? Do you want to have a chance at doing so? The Red Sux will win the AL with ease if their road to the World Series consists only of having to beat the Tigers/Twins/Palehos in the ALDS and then the Angels in the ALCS (after the Angels again beat the Halliday-less Yanks). Watching the Redstiffs get crowned Team of the Decade with their third World Series in six years (do you really think the Dodgers or whatever suck team can beat LA will be able to knock off the Sawx in the Series? get real) is not how I want to spend October. If the Yanks do not want to be the perennial #2 in the AL East and just an afterthought as a World Series contender, they go and get Halliday.

  245. Coach6423 July 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    Matt July 15th, 2009 at 11:36 am

    He is not sitting at 89-91 as a starter, stop looking at the TV guns and look at gameday for his starts.

    In his recent starts he was sitting 92-94 consistently, pumping it in there as high as 96-97 with runners on base later in games. It’s not his velocity, it’s his control and location. He relies too much on his breaking ball and never really establishes either pitch properly in his starts, and if his breaking ball is flat he gets crushed because he doesn’t trust anything but his offspeed pitches most of the time.

    ———————————————

    Great post Matt.

  246. pete July 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    why is hughes more valuable to you than joba? he’s good in the bullpen because it takes a lesser pitcher to be good in the bullpen. We’ve seen no evidence that hughes will ever be even close to joba the starter in 2008 – all we’ve seen is that hughes is approximately equal to joba the starter in 2009.

  247. SJ44 July 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    This current regime hasn’t traded away the entire farm as what happened in the 80s’.

    If anything, they have shown a good ability to balance the needs of the parent club by dealing certain prospects, and keeping the guys that turn out to be contributors to the parent.

    This isn’t the 80s’. The is a track record of almost 20 years of handling this balance very, very well.

    If they have a chance to get Roy Halladay, they aren’t going drain the system to do so. However, they WILL trade high end prospects because their goal is to win and not prospect hug.

  248. eric July 15th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    @ matt- i have him on the stadium gun/scouting guns (i got into the legends seats and peeked). he sat around 90 all game. gameday isnt reliable.

  249. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    eric – his average fastball this season is 92.4, down from 95 last season. not as drastic as it looks now, is it.

    You are all still completely undervaluing what the blue jays want in return for halladay. you can’t just send them one top prospect and as many minor ones as you feel like listing. they will just laugh at you.

    To acquire the Jays ace, teams should be expected to surrender something like $40 million in value.

    What does $40 million in value look like? Something like three terrific prospects who are not that far from the majors. No one’s giving up players from the Matt Wieters/David Price mold, but it’s going to take several players from that second prospect tier, the top 25-50 type guys.

    None of our prospects fall in that category, at least not the one’s being spoken about here.

  250. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    josh johnson sounds great, but is he even available. I know the Marlins like shedding payroll but he only makes $1.4MM a year and isn’t arb eligible until 2012…why would they let him go?

  251. sab July 15th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    heres something to think about..

    if the yankees decide to sacrifice the WS this year in order to keep montero thats just fine.

    montero won’t be playing in the big leagues until at least 2012 –

    in 2012 they yankees will have no posada, probably no rivera, a 39 year old jeter and a 38 year old arod – Montero even if he’s hitting 40 homeruns at catcher (and that is a strech both homerun wise and that he’s actually catching) won’t make up for the lack of hitting (and not having mo as the closer)..so in 2012 we’ll be talking about how the yankees haven’t won in 12 years and how montero will be just like mattingly – a great player(maybe maybe not) with zero rings…

    stop the silliness – if you have to include montero to get halladay you do it 100 times out of 100….these are the yankees – if they need a bat or 2 or 3 they’ll go out and get one via free agency – a talent like halladay comes around once every decade – a good hitting position player is available every year and some years there will be multiple players out there…

  252. GGBG July 15th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    Someone Else

    You can’t just cherry pick like that and expect to be taken seriously. Cherry picking his after DL stint starts by saying “This might be who we are trading for” and then extrapolating that to you should never deal blue chip prospects is pretty silly.

    And then to go on saying things like “well Webb got hurt and we would have dealt for him so we shouldn’t deal for Halladay for that reason” is even sillier.

    In case you hadn’t noticed, Hughes got hurt in 2007 AND 2008. Joba got hurt in 2008 too. In this prospective deal, we’d be dealing away potential injury just as much as we’d be dealing for it. Overall, it’d be a wash.

  253. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    “Someone else,

    Really? That’s your argument?

    Halladay’s the only pitcher with more than 100 wins to never pitch in the playoffs. That’s somehow his fault?”

    No. My argument is that he’s a pitcher.

    Pitchers are injury-prone.

    Stud pitchers, who are studs year in and year out, get hurt every year. See: Brandon Webb.

    Halladay already has one injury this season. He’s been mediocre since coming back. Who’s to say he pitches to a sub-3 ERA through 2010 and not a 4.5?

    Too risky to trade 2-3 blue chip prospects for.

    My other argument is that he provides no postseason guarantees.

  254. Tank July 15th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    Great pitchers are far harder to find/develop than position players/hitters. If we have a bunch of catchers lined up anyways, go for it.

    If the Yanks don’t get Halladay, the Red Sox have a legit shot at getting him AND can keep him after next season. A Beckett/Halladay/Lester Dice Krotation for the next 4-5 years is absolutely frightening. Yanks trading for Halladay is almost a protective move than a need move.

  255. Bill from NJ July 15th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    Yanks can just go after Mauer when he’s a FA.

  256. Uncle Ellsworth July 15th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    Also
    might the Hank and Hal want to win another while George still has his faculties. Win one for George!

  257. vb03 July 15th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Good post other than the dealing Montero part.

    Monstero stays, one of Phil/Joba stays. Other than that, have at it.

  258. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    “And what, exactly, in Halladay’s career makes people think he can pitch in October?”

    You see something that says he can’t?
    ————-

    do you see something in a-rods regular season numbers that says he can’t hit in the playoffs? no. you don’t know until they get there.

  259. SJ44 July 15th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    As far as Joba is concerned, if they ever traded him for Roy Halladay that’s not a slap in the face to Joba or is it “dumping him”.

    Its freaking Roy Halladay, not Carl Pavano.

    If anything, it speaks to how highly he is valued, not how little.

  260. jennifer July 15th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    pete July 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    why is hughes more valuable to you than joba? he’s good in the bullpen because it takes a lesser pitcher to be good in the bullpen. We’ve seen no evidence that hughes will ever be even close to joba the starter in 2008 – all we’ve seen is that hughes is approximately equal to joba the starter in 2009.

    ***********

    Really, I guess you missed his starts.

  261. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    “Someone Else

    You can’t just cherry pick like that and expect to be taken seriously. Cherry picking his after DL stint starts by saying “This might be who we are trading for” and then extrapolating that to you should never deal blue chip prospects is pretty silly.

    And then to go on saying things like “well Webb got hurt and we would have dealt for him so we shouldn’t deal for Halladay for that reason” is even sillier.

    In case you hadn’t noticed, Hughes got hurt in 2007 AND 2008. Joba got hurt in 2008 too. In this prospective deal, we’d be dealing away potential injury just as much as we’d be dealing for it. Overall, it’d be a wash.”

    But the deal isn’t Joba for Halladay or Hughes for Halladay.

    It’s Joba+Montero+ or Hughes+Montero+

    Joba and Hughes are also cheaper, younger, under team control longer.

    I guarantee you, a Joba+Montero+___+___ trade will be one this team would regret for a decade.

  262. Rayvt July 15th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Wow! What is going to happen. Personally I’d like the Yankees to get Josh Johnson from the Marlins and Halladay from Toronto. If the Yanks knew they could get both then it would free up a lot of high end Pitching Prospects for these trades. I also like Wells and IMO his only downside is his contract. He could play CF in Yankee stadium and Swish could go to Toronto or somewhere for a prospect to be included in a deal with the Marlins or Toronto.

    An OF of Damo/Gardner/Jackson in LF, Wells in CF & Melky in RF is ok with me.

    A SP staff of Johnson, Halladay, CC, AJ & Pettite/Wang this year & Hughes next year is as well.

    I’d hope that Montero wouldn’t have to be included in these trades but if the Yankees had both Johnson & Halladay then I wouldn’t miss Joba as much. Also, I’d prefer Joba to the Marlins! LOL!

  263. Craigster July 15th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    It became nearly impossible to take the rest of this post serious after I read the line: “Jorge Posada is somehow still one of the game’s best catchers…”

    Anybody who considers Posada “one of the game’s best catchers” has no idea what he’s watching.

    Posada is a DH who squats behind the plate.

  264. SJ44 July 15th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    What makes you think any of these prospects can play in October? No evidence of that either.

    Nobody makes trades for what they think people can do in October. Its too small a sample size to make any accurate judgments.

  265. Chris July 15th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    I feel if you have a chance to get the best right handed pitcher in game and you pass up on him and he winds up in the hands of the Redsox we’re Fu%k!

  266. Ramey July 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    “As far as Joba is concerned, if they ever traded him for Roy Halladay that’s not a slap in the face to Joba or is it “dumping him”.

    Its freaking Roy Halladay, not Carl Pavano.

    If anything, it speaks to how highly he is valued, not how little”

    Well said

  267. GGBG July 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    Tom B

    If you’re going to quote Fangraphs at least link to it again. Bad form, sir.

  268. Therston July 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    I agree with CB.
    So much overreaction to every game.
    Montero AND Joba AND anyone else is way too much…
    More like 1 of the top 3 and another very good prospect and a B.
    How much did the Red Sox give for Beckett at the time…while taking on a contract.
    How much did the Mets give to get Santana.
    Joba right now is a very good pick up for Toronto and is not easily matched by the other teams competing for his services.
    Who are the Angels or Phil giving as a main piece of a trade who is beating him?
    I thought Romine, Joba and Brackman was a very generous offer and is a hard to beat combination as well.

  269. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    “I loved Joba.. But the Joba I loved may not exist anymore except in our memory. If you can get DOC without giving up Hughes…Go for it.”

    Last year you could have switched “Hughes” and “Joba” in that statement and it would have made sense. I’m not opposed to trading Joba in a deal for Halladay but if we don’t I’m not going to give up on Joba…

  270. Uncle Ellsworth July 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    “Funny isn’t Reggie the same guy complaining about Alex passing him since he used roids? ”

    I don’t think so I think they are buds.

  271. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    “Rebecca –

    I dont’ think Aceves can get 10 wins . and hes not going to eat up innings. Plus we don’t want to mess with the bullpen ( where he belongs ) . ”

    Aceves already has five wins. I don’t think 10 for him would be a stretch.

    And for what it’s worth, he’s pitched 43.1 innings already and he was only called up in May.

    So he might–and should–remain in the bullpen, but he does meet your criteria…

  272. Peter Abraham July 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    Ok, Craigster, give me the long list of catchers who are more productive. Joe Mauer … and … um …

  273. Patrick Bateman July 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    I can’t believe the hypocrites on this site. Welcome to the spin zone.

    Everyone wants Halladay and has no problem trading Joba, Montero, and Austin Jackson for a guy who is 32. Yet 2 years ago when A-Rod, Jeter, Rivera, Posada were all younger, it was “Save the Kids” for the best pitcher in the game who was 28 at the time. Nobody wanted to part with Ian “Cy Young” Kennedy or Melky “Mantle” Cabrera. Everyone is saying “this isn’t a playoff caliber” rotation, yet it was with Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes in it?

    Now you’re all willing to give up more, for an older pitcher, who would be surrounded by an older team. If Cashman makes a trade for Halladay for anything more than a Metro Card and a pizza at Grimaldi’s then he’s proving that he has absolutely no clue how to manage this team.

    Phil Hughes has accomplished nothing. Absolutely nothing, except miss a year with a hamstring and another year with a rib injury. He’s throwing 5mph harder this year because he’s in the bullpen. Yet when he was in the rotation throwing 92, his fastball was as flat as a pancake and as straight as an arrow. And this is the guy you’re marking “untouchable”. Why, because he’s got a blog and is a nice guy? Come on. Get real.

  274. m July 15th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    Someone else,

    I think you’re mixing yourself up! I was responding to this post (and there’s no red flags that make me think he can’t pitch in October):

    Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    And what, exactly, in Halladay’s career makes people think he can pitch in October?

  275. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    “do you see something in a-rods regular season numbers that says he can’t hit in the playoffs? no. you don’t know until they get there.”

    You can’t seriously compare the mental make-up of ARod to Halladay, can you?

  276. Therston July 15th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    IF we cannot get Halladay for a fair deal for both sides…I am fine with chasing Washburn or someone of that level instead.

  277. Matt July 15th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    Halladay

    vs. Boston- 12-12 4.46 ERA .271 BAA
    vs. TB- 11-9 3.73 ERA .273 BAA
    vs. LAA- 8-5 4.32 ERA .279 BAA

    He’s not invincible like you all seem to think, just because he does it to the Yankees.

  278. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    betsy July 15th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    GF, I want to say that I really admire your stance on Joba and Phil. You are extremely consistent – and I appreciate that. I also agree with you to a degree – a strong degree. I don’t think, by the way, that most reasonable fans are giving up on Joba (I do agree that a lot of fans who trashed Phil, are the same ones singing is praises…..and vice versa for Joba) because they are annoyed and frustrated with him. It’s ok that he’s not the most mature kid in the world, but being 23 doesn’t give him a pass for being out of condition and stubborn. Phil is just turned 23 and he could never be accused of those things. If Joba has to go down to AAA (no pen for him – I agree), it does not mean the Yankees are giving up on him.

    ——————

    I appreciate the kind words, but we definitely disagree on the fanbase’s perception of Hughes last season.

    These kids have essentially switched roles. Hughes was the gutless immature kid who couldn’t handle NY and took the starting rotation job for granted in 2008.

    Don’t forget, Hughes wasn’t in the greatest shape last year either. The Yanks sent him over the offseason to that training program. I would assume they’ll do the same thing with Joba.

    Read CB’s post from earlier. He is absolutely dead on.

    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....ent-913049

    All I can tell you is that the trashing of Joba the last week or two is very eerily similar to the stuff we heard about Hughes last year and over the offseason.

    Those of us who believed in him when times were really bad for him are getting rewarded for our faith and belief he’d turn things around.

    I believe the same thing is eventually going to happen with Joba.

  279. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    “What makes you think any of these prospects can play in October? No evidence of that either.

    Nobody makes trades for what they think people can do in October. Its too small a sample size to make any accurate judgments.”

    Wow. I can’t believe people have still latched onto this aside.

    People think trading for Halladay guarantees the 2009 and 2010 World Series Championships.

    I don’t think he increases the odds by more than 10-20%. The playoffs are just THAT fluky.

    We’ve seen this offense go into a week to two weeks slump already this year – that happens in October, it doesn’t matter if you have vintage Bob Gibson going for you, you ain’t winning the World Series.

    You don’t trade young, cost-controlled, talent (2-3 blue chippers) for that. One is the most you can part with, and even then you risk a Smoltz for Alexander.

  280. 86w183 July 15th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    I think most of us are more impressed with Hughes because of his maturity, poise and conditioning.

    I’d love to see them make the Halladay trade and eat a nasty contract if it let them keep Joba and Hughes. If they take on Wells contract they shouldn’t have to give up much actual talent.

    In 2010 Wells and Halladay will make about $ 36 Million. That’s less than the Yanks have coming off the books, so it’s not inconcievable. they might have to force Toronto to take Swisher to offset it somewhat.

    So is Wells and his contract worth keeping Joba and Montero if that’s what it takes?

  281. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    ggbg i’ve linked to it about 5 times in the last week, and not a single person here has read it. i give up. wish in one hand…

  282. bru July 15th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    man did pete know exactly the right topic to keep us occupied.

  283. G. Love July 15th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    SJ,

    I think too many of today’s fans are used to the Yankees getting All Stars for “nothing” prospects because we were taking on salary.

    They don’t understand that making a good trade hurts.

    To get Clemens we had to give up Wells. I didn’t agree with that deal as I LOVED Wells, but when Clemens helped them win WS championships I celebrated and didn’t sulk in the corner that Wells wasn’t a Yankee anymore.

    Another good trade we made in the 90′s was for Knobby where we gave up Milton and Guzman (among others) who both turned out to be decent players for Minny and in their careers.

    We had to trade Kelly to get O’Neil.

    Not every trade is Abreu for CJ Henry.

  284. Tank July 15th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    @ Pete —Brian McCann?

    Posada is still one of the best catchers in the game. Still a top 5. Mauer, McCann…Who else? Maybe Yadier Molina?

  285. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Matt, adding his record against those teams would be an improvement over the Yankees this year…

  286. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    People get too caught up in the home-grown guys. Yes Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Andy, & Bernie were staples of the dynasty and their contributions can’t be overstated. But those are 5 guys out of a 40 man roster. Paulie, Coney, Tino, Clemens (gasp), Wells, Duque, Nelson, Scotty Bro, Knoblauch, et al came from other teams.

    You gotta know when your prospects are future stars and which are trading chips. Personally, I would bet on Hughes to have a longer, better career than Joba. I would consider Hughes the only untouchable pitcher in our system.

  287. Andrew July 15th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    “Phil Hughes has accomplished nothing. Absolutely nothing, except miss a year with a hamstring and another year with a rib injury. He’s throwing 5mph harder this year because he’s in the bullpen. Yet when he was in the rotation throwing 92, his fastball was as flat as a pancake and as straight as an arrow. And this is the guy you’re marking “untouchable”. Why, because he’s got a blog and is a nice guy? Come on. Get real.”

    You completely lose logic with this paragraph. Did you watch any of the games Hughes started this year? Or did you only watch his start in Baltimore? His fastball was not “flat as a pancake and straight as an arrow”, and you neglect to mention the progress he has made thanks to his regained health this year with his other secondary pitches.

  288. timbo July 15th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    Cano for Halladay, this solves what to do with Jeter next year, move him to second. We will have Pena play short.

  289. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    “You gotta know when your prospects are future stars and which are trading chips. Personally, I would bet on Hughes to have a longer, better career than Joba. I would consider Hughes the only untouchable pitcher in our system.”

    1 year ago today, you would say the exact opposite.

  290. GGBG July 15th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    Someone else said:
    But the deal isn’t Joba for Halladay or Hughes for Halladay.

    It’s Joba+Montero+ or Hughes+Montero+

    Joba and Hughes are also cheaper, younger, under team control longer.

    I guarantee you, a Joba+Montero+___+___ trade will be one this team would regret for a decade.

    ===========================================================

    This deal would be to win the WS this year and next year. I’ll deal with 8 years from now, 8 years from now with my memories of what the parades were like in 2009 and 2010.

    Also, we’re the Yankees. That Joba and Montero are “under control” longer is irrelevant. If history has shown anything it’s that when the Yankees REALLY want someone, they get him. If Joba prospers and 4-5 years from now becomes big time FA’s, we’ll sign him. Same for Montero in his timeline.

    A rotation of CC + Doc + AJ + CMW + Hughes/Joba for the forseeable future is insane and would make us the odds on favorite for the World Series every year.

  291. Wanzies July 15th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    The corporate mantra at Steinbrenner & Co. has ALWAYS been “win the World Series”.

    The reality is, like it or not, the Yankees’ pitching is not good enough to win it all. More horses are needed. A horse is available.

    With Jeter, Posada, ARod, et al primed for a run, you go for it now. There will always be another Joba or Montero out there. Perhaps not another Halladay.

  292. Jay Hirsch July 15th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    Brett Gardner, Miranda, & S Duncan for Sanchez

  293. Tarheelyank July 15th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Pete
    See tree stump post.
    GF
    I couldnt agree more.

  294. m July 15th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Isn’t Benjie better than Yadier?

  295. Therston July 15th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Patrick Bateman-
    You are so far off in your assessment of Phil Hughes.
    While some people are extreme in love for prospects, it is equally wrong to ignore positives and only point out negatives when evaluating them.
    Fact is Hughes is a different pitcher now because he had found his velocity in November…not in the bullpen…He has a better curveball which is throwing different and he adds a solid Cutter at 88 mph which gives him a range of 94-95, 87 88 and 77-79.
    This is how kids develop.
    I would trade him for Halladay but to talk about him like he is a pile of overhyped useless junk is foolish.

  296. vb03 July 15th, 2009 at 11:59 am

    I don’t feel like wasting any more of the Big 4′s productive years, where we have a MAJOR positional advantage at SS, 3B, C and closer.

    You lose that, and it’s much harder to win a World Series.

    Window’s closing, folks. Kick it open, or regret it later.

  297. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 11:59 am

    Aw, crap.

    Sorry, Betsy. I linked the wrong post:

    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....ent-913014

  298. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 11:59 am

    Someone Else,

    That’s not true. Personally, I don’t care for Joba’s attitude and, to state the obvious, his upbringing, recent DUI, and lack of accountability after bad starts is, frankly, alarming.

    When you have new information to shed light on things, do you look the other way?

  299. Buck Nasty July 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    I Cant wait to see what peoples excuses are if we make this deal and it doesnt help us win a world series. Believe it or not the yankees are nto entitled to be in the playoffes and win the WS every year, and if you run your organization year by year your setting yourself up for failure.

  300. GGBG July 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Tom B

    ggbg i’ve linked to it about 5 times in the last week, and not a single person here has read it. i give up. wish in one hand…

    ===========================================================

    I read it. It’s a good article. If you’re going to use it as a direct quote, either say “this is a quote from fangraphs” or link to it. Bad form to post something you copy pasted as yours.

  301. vb03 July 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Prime example is the Red Sox trading Hanley Ramirez to Florida.

    You think they’d want Ramirez right now instead of Nick Green? Hell yeah.

    You think they’d trade their 2007 World Series ring for it? Hell no.

    This is the point.

  302. m July 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Why is it so wrong to say something completely opposite a year later?

    Because players flatline their progression? Injuries and setbacks don’t occur? Players don’t flourish or flounder?

    Nothing wrong at all with changing your opinion from year to year.

    Especially on the LHYB, where changing your opinion from day to day is nothing to blink at. ;)

  303. Alex July 15th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Yanks have the trade chips to make some good deals. What will Cashman do? No doubt he is planning something. Can’t stay status quo.

  304. Mike July 15th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Jeter . Arod and Rivera aren’t getting any younger. .Pull the Halladay trade , let Montero rot in Toronto !.

  305. Craigster July 15th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    @ Peter:
    There is more to catching than swinging the bat, Peter.

    Posada looks like a hell of a DH, but that spot is already taken with the Yankees, at least for this year.

    CC Sabathia doesn’t want anything to do with the guy, and there is a reason for that.

    And if memory serves, you were the guy who, at the beginning of the season, was preaching to all that this Yankees team would win with run PREVENTION… Well, Posada ain’t doing anything to help with run prevention.

    The list of catchers in the majors who are more sound and better defensively than Posada is nearly endless.

  306. Wanzies July 15th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Buck,

    Not really. Not when there is an uneven playing field and you have more bullets than the other guys. You use them until they change the rules.

  307. JasonR July 15th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    “And what, exactly, in Halladay’s career makes people think he can pitch in October?”

    He’s an ace who’s proven that he’s a big game pitcher in matchups against the Red Sox and Yankees. It beats Joba’s record of up-and-down regular season starting pitching and falling prey to the midges as a reliever in October.

    I don’t want to kill Joba here, because I like him a lot and feel that it’s wrong to give up on a 23 year old pitcher. But I don’t want to waste what may be the last years of Jeter/Posada/Rivera. Especially Rivera. There isn’t anyone like Mo out there (even Joba in the bullpen).

  308. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    M,

    EXACTLY! It’s called new information. If you loved your girlfriend a year ago and you just found out that she ruined your credit while cheating on you, do you still keep her around? Nooooo.

  309. GreenBeret7 July 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    timbo
    July 15th, 2009 at 11:56 am
    Cano for Halladay, this solves what to do with Jeter next year, move him to second. We will have Pena play short.

    ————————————————————

    I guess that Toronto would try dumping Aaron Hill on the Yanks to make room for Cano, huh? It would make swallowing halladay’s contract a liitle easier, I suppose.

  310. GGBG July 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    VB03 July 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
    Prime example is the Red Sox trading Hanley Ramirez to Florida.

    You think they’d want Ramirez right now instead of Nick Green? Hell yeah.

    You think they’d trade their 2007 World Series ring for it? Hell no.

    This is the point.

    ===========================================================

    Exactly.

  311. YankeeRay July 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Rayvt
    July 15th, 2009 at 11:49 am
    Wow! What is going to happen. Personally I’d like the Yankees to get Josh Johnson from the Marlins and Halladay from Toronto. If the Yanks knew they could get both then it would free up a lot of high end Pitching Prospects for these trades. I also like Wells and IMO his only downside is his contract. He could play CF in Yankee stadium and Swish could go to Toronto or somewhere for a prospect to be included in a deal with the Marlins or Toronto.

    An OF of Damo/Gardner/Jackson in LF, Wells in CF & Melky in RF is ok with me.

    A SP staff of Johnson, Halladay, CC, AJ & Pettite/Wang this year & Hughes next year is as well.

    I’d hope that Montero wouldn’t have to be included in these trades but if the Yankees had both Johnson & Halladay then I wouldn’t miss Joba as much. Also, I’d prefer Joba to the Marlins! LOL!

    And maybe we can get Lincecum and Cain from SF for a couple of low end prospects. Then our rotation could be CC, AJ, Halliday, Johnson, Lincecum and Cain could pitch out of the pen. Then we could probably win another WS.

  312. Andrew July 15th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    Chapman could be cheaper than Daisuke, apparently, according to KLaw by way of this NY Post article (Below)? Comparatively he’s younger (hopefully his age is somewhat accurate in the ballpark of 21), has better stuff and is a lefty. Plus now he’s being represented by some podunk outfit from White Plains so hopefully they are Yankees fans (as well as fans of money, of course, since they are agents). I say save the money that could be spent on trading for and extending Roy and bring on Aroldis.

    http://tinyurl.com/lvjzgw

  313. Sigmund July 15th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    Purely in the realm of speculation (which this whole string is):

    Jeter for Halladay, straight up.

    Seriously. (I have an odd feeling that Jeter will never be this good again.)

    And as far as loyalty goes, this is a business. The Yanks even traded Babe Ruth late in his career.

  314. Patrick Bateman July 15th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    “You completely lose logic with this paragraph. Did you watch any of the games Hughes started this year? Or did you only watch his start in Baltimore? His fastball was not “flat as a pancake and straight as an arrow”, and you neglect to mention the progress he has made thanks to his regained health this year with his other secondary pitches.”

    Phil Hughes as a starter this season was nothing to write home about. He was not some dominating starter this year. Yet now that he’s in the bullpen he’s the greatest thing since sliced bread again. The reason he is succeeding now isn’t because he’s using his secondary pitches. Its due to his greater velocity and command of his fastball which allows him to throw that curve.

    Its just like what people are doing now with Chamberlain. Everyone is questioning his value now, including Peter, because he’s having a rough patch in his growth as a starter. Yet Chamberlain has more plus pitches than Hughes, throws harder, and has shown he can pitch as a starter at the major league level last year.

    Never seen more people flip flopping outside the beach.

  315. m July 15th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    michael,

    Change that to “boyfriend”, and I totally get your point. :)

  316. Shdw July 15th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    I highly doubt the Yankees would do it but it’s way to much for me. Jesus, Joba, and someone else is fine. But not ANYONE else. They can have Joba, Jesus OR another A prospect in place of one of them along with a B prospect. Not 3 A’s.

  317. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    vb03 July 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Prime example is the Red Sox trading Hanley Ramirez to Florida.

    You think they’d want Ramirez right now instead of Nick Green? Hell yeah.

    You think they’d trade their 2007 World Series ring for it? Hell no.

    This is the point.

    ————-

    Theo didn’t make that deal.

    I’d be willing to bet Theo wouldn’t have made that deal had he been in charge.

    He’s every bit the prospect hugger that Cashman is – probably even more.

  318. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    M,

    You got it!

  319. Buck Nasty July 15th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    You cant build a team just by going out and throwing money at people wanzies. how well did that work for us in the 2000′s. a couple of guys thats ok but you cant jus have a team of mercs, that isnt how u succeed in building an organization

  320. Wanzies July 15th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    With all due respect, this isn’t fantasy baseball. We’re not putting a “keeper” team together for 2011.

    Halladay is available; Yankees have all the pieces, and even more so than the Phillies, the NEED.

    All of the perifery is just that – perifery.

  321. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    m July 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Why is it so wrong to say something completely opposite a year later?

    Because players flatline their progression? Injuries and setbacks don’t occur? Players don’t flourish or flounder?

    Nothing wrong at all with changing your opinion from year to year.

    Especially on the LHYB, where changing your opinion from day to day is nothing to blink at. ;)

    ————-

    Mel,

    You know better than that. People in Yankeeland change their opinion on a player more often than they change their underwear.

    It’s not always a yearly thing. It’s often a nightly thing.

  322. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    Why is everyone automatically assuming we’re going to get Chapman?

    We want him, sure, but that’s no guarantee we’ll get him.

    If you’re going to make plans about the Yankees’ future, you should probably at least make plans for guys that the Yankees already have in their system…

  323. JasonR July 15th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    “Theo didn’t make that deal.

    I’d be willing to bet Theo wouldn’t have made that deal had he been in charge.

    He’s every bit the prospect hugger that Cashman is – probably even more.”

    If he wouldn’t have done it, then he’s wrong. The Red Sox won a World Series and are now in good position to win more for the foreseeable future because they have Josh Beckett.

  324. Dont hold your breath July 15th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    This team can do this WITHOUT Halladay. While I would love to have the pre-DL Halladay, the post-DL Halladay is nursing a groin injury and hasn’t been as dominate in the recent games he’s pitched. How long this will last is anyone’s guess but I would hate to go through Rocket the savior redux.

  325. Wanzies July 15th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    Buck,

    The team is built. It needs a horse. Horse is available.

    Get the horse.

  326. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Patrick Bateman,

    The thing that is alarming with Joba is his lack of accountability after bad starts, his off field issues, and his head hunting antics with Youk.

    Plus he wears a straight-brim hat….we can’t have any of that Tom-foolery around here!

  327. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    “This deal would be to win the WS this year and next year. I’ll deal with 8 years from now, 8 years from now with my memories of what the parades were like in 2009 and 2010.

    Also, we’re the Yankees. That Joba and Montero are “under control” longer is irrelevant. If history has shown anything it’s that when the Yankees REALLY want someone, they get him. If Joba prospers and 4-5 years from now becomes big time FA’s, we’ll sign him. Same for Montero in his timeline.

    A rotation of CC + Doc + AJ + CMW + Hughes/Joba for the forseeable future is insane and would make us the odds on favorite for the World Series every year.”

    So, you’ve been happy with 2001-2008?

  328. vb03 July 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    vb03 July 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Prime example is the Red Sox trading Hanley Ramirez to Florida.

    You think they’d want Ramirez right now instead of Nick Green? Hell yeah.

    You think they’d trade their 2007 World Series ring for it? Hell no.

    This is the point.

    ————-

    Theo didn’t make that deal.

    I’d be willing to bet Theo wouldn’t have made that deal had he been in charge.

    He’s every bit the prospect hugger that Cashman is – probably even more.

    ————–

    If Boston didn’t make that deal, their rotation would be even uglier now, and I’d bet they don’t have the ring in 2007 cause their starting pitching will not have held up without an ace.

    Beckett has been huge for them, both in regular season and in postseason.

  329. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    “The corporate mantra at Steinbrenner & Co. has ALWAYS been “win the World Series”.

    The reality is, like it or not, the Yankees’ pitching is not good enough to win it all. More horses are needed. A horse is available.

    With Jeter, Posada, ARod, et al primed for a run, you go for it now. There will always be another Joba or Montero out there. Perhaps not another Halladay.”

    There will always be another Joba or Montero? Are you flipping kidding me?

  330. Steve B July 15th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    “Isn’t Benjie better than Yadier?”

    Always thougt Yadier was viewed as the best of the Catching Moilnas.

  331. Mike July 15th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    The best part of last night’s All Star Game, is that the undeserving Tim Wakefield did not get to warm up, let alone pitch in the game.

  332. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    Craigster
    CC Sabathia doesn’t want anything to do with the guy, and there is a reason for that.
    ———
    Proof? Where?

    Do you want to know why Posada gets his off days when CC is pitching? Because we shouldn’t need his BAT in the lineup to win that game.

  333. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    Buck Nasty,

    As for the “how did that work out” argument, how many times was a pitcher of Halladay’s caliber available? It’s not like we had a 5-man rotation from ’04 – ’08 of world beaters.

  334. Patrick Bateman July 15th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    “Patrick Bateman,
    The thing that is alarming with Joba is his lack of accountability after bad starts, his off field issues, and his head hunting antics with Youk.”

    The only person that is alarming to is Peter, because he doesn’t get a story to write out of it. Sorry, I don’t trade people because they don’t give good quotes to the press.

    His whole issue with Youkilis, who crowds the plate like Jeter does, doesn’t bother me at all if he pitches like he did last year against Boston and Beckett.

  335. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    “If Boston didn’t make that deal, their rotation would be even uglier now, and I’d bet they don’t have the ring in 2007 cause their starting pitching will not have held up without an ace.

    Beckett has been huge for them, both in regular season and in postseason.”

    Except for 2006 and 2008.

  336. Wanzies July 15th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    Someone Else,

    By “another Joba or Montero” I meant top ranked prospects who have potential.

    Halladay is more than that.

  337. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    If I’m trading that package, screw ROY HOLLADAY I want Josh Johnson or King Felix.

    With that said Doc will land in Philly. :)

  338. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    “Halladay is available; Yankees have all the pieces, and even more so than the Phillies, the NEED.”

    Actually, I’d argue that the Phillies need Halladay more than the Yankees.

    That said, the only reason we think the Yankees need Halladay any more than any of the other teams here is because we’re Yankee fans and see the world through pinstriped glasses.

  339. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    Thank god the hordes of ‘worry about tomorrow when it comes’ fans don’t run the team!

  340. Tinkinrocks July 15th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    FREE tix alert!
    Hey guys, Ive read Pete and all daily for couple seasons now.
    Rarely post, but wanna give back..
    I have a front row ,single seat ticket ,for this sat,1:00.. bought 6 off stub hub , only need 5.
    Bleacher sec 202..
    Best need story from regs gets it. It’s an e ticket..

    Jd

  341. rconn23 July 15th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    Jarrod Washburn is not getting traded. Besides, before this year he was considered a mid to back of the rotation guy.

    To trade for him now, you’d be buying high, VERY high. Heck, the Yankees almost got him last year in a salary dump.

    Frontline starters like Dan Haren and Josh Johnson aren’t going anywhere.

    The Yankees 3-4-5 starters in the rotation are a disaster right now. If you had a problem with just your 4 or 5 starter you could trade for a Brian Bannister and, problem solved.

    But the Yankees have three starters they can’t trust to go more five innings (Joba,Pettitte, and Wang)

    You have no idea what you are going to get from Wang at this point. Saying he’s going to return to form is a leap of faith of the highest magnitude.

    Pettitte battles as much as he can, but he’s just about out of bullets. You can only throw so many 88 mph fastballs, and slow looping breaking stuff before you get creamed by major league hitters.

    The bullpen only has three dependable arms without Aceves in the mix – Coke, Hughes and, of course Rivera.

    When three-fifths of your rotation can’t go more than five innings, you’re going to abuse the only dependable arms you have in the bullpen. Meanwhile, you’re going to have too many appearances from the back end of the bullpen fodder you don’t want to see in close games (Tomko, Bruney, Robertson etc.)

    Trading for Halladay is a no-brainer. The team is not built to win five years from now.
    Your biggest talents are in the 30s, outside of Tex and Sabbathia who are both in their primes at 29.

    No one wants to trade Montero, but anyone who is going to trade for Halladay is going to have to give up their top prospect.

    Halladay is not going to Boston without Buccholz and Lars Anderson being involved.

    He’s not going to Texas without Justin Smoak thrown in the mix.

    It’s going to smart, but it’s the best chance for the Yankees to win the World Series this year – and this year is all that matters.

  342. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    JasonR July 15th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    If he wouldn’t have done it, then he’s wrong. The Red Sox won a World Series and are now in good position to win more for the foreseeable future because they have Josh Beckett.

    ———–

    Theo refused to give up another one of his young prized kids for Johan Santana as well two years ago.

    That kid’s name is Jon Lester.

    Do you think Theo regrets not making that deal now?

    I’d say probably not.

  343. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    As for the post-season,….the 500 lb. gorilla in the room that few are acknowledging is the fact that CC has been terrible in the postseason. I think he’s an outstanding regular season pitcher who will shrink when it matters most. Beckett is just the opposite.

  344. m July 15th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    So anyway, it the general blog attitude toward Joba seems cold.

    I’m speaking only for myself, but it’s not the results that are disappointing. It’s the “attitude”.

    Joba will get a lot more rope with the fans, and probably the organization, if he’d be more accepting of help and advice.

    It’s sad to say, but Joba’s not invincible like he was when he burst on to the scene.

    If he can accept that that’s not who he is, and pitch to the best of his abilities then I think the world will open up for him.

    Our own expectations of him have taken a hit. Maybe he’s personally having difficulty dealing adjusting his own expectations?

  345. Craigster July 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    @ Tom B

    Even Peter, whose defense of Posada knows no bounds, admits that it has become clear there is something to Posada not catching Sabathia.

    Posada, by the way, didn’t catch on Friday… So there was only one reason left for him not to catch again two days later… And it wasn’t rest.

  346. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    “If I’m trading that package, screw ROY HOLLADAY I want Josh Johnson or King Felix.

    With that said Doc will land in Philly.”

    100% agreed.

    I’m calling it now. Halladay from now through 2010 will be noticeably worse than Halladay from the beginning of 2008 through now.

    Go young. If you’re willing to deal Joba+Montero for Halladay, why not float the SAME deal for Felix or Johnson?

  347. Matt July 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Hanley Ramirez was not the big time prospect that he is now back when he was traded. He always had a lot of potential, but had taken a huge nosedive at AAA and many were wondering if he was being overrated.

    At the time, the Beckett and Lowell for Hanley deal looked like a steal, and considering how Lowell turned it around, for now at least, that deal still was a great deal for Boston despite losing the present day Hanley Ramirez in it. Beckett has been an ace and Lowell has been clutch and productive while playing outstanding defense.

  348. Mike July 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    What some of you do not realize about the Red Sox and Theo is that they have unlimited prospects that they can spin off for above average to great players.

    I’ve read and heard several times that Clay Bucholz and Lars Anderson would headline a Halladay move to the Red Sox.

    Bucholz, despite throwing a no hitter, was nothing but a failure at the major league level, kind of like the way Phil Hughes was last year. Yet, Bucholz retains his top prospect status.

    And, Lars is nothing but the propping up of Gammons, ESPN, FOX, etc. And there’s plenty more prospects where Lars Anderson came from :)

  349. Wanzies July 15th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    The core of the NYY is not built for tomorrow as much as it is built for today. In five years, when Jeter, Posada, ARod (okay, ARod will still be here), et al are not primed, you use different bullets. The minors are well-enough stocked to afford to try to win now AND in the future.

  350. Patrick Bateman July 15th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    The whole “CC Is bad in the postseason” talk is such garbage.

    The two postseasons he’s been bad in:

    1. The Boston series where he pitched 250 innings.
    2. The Phillies series where he pitched 4 times in a row prior to the playoffs on 3 days rest each time.

  351. The Monk July 15th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    The Smoltz-for-Alexander and Bagwell-for-Andersen trope is overworn. First, both Alexander and Andersen were half-season rentals; the Yanks will have Halliday through 2010 at minimum. Second, both trades did what they were supposed to: helped the contenders. And the RedSax didn’t suffer too badly after losing Bagwell (playoffs in ’95, ’98, ’99, ’03, ’04).

    How about Yarnall, Wilson and Geoff Goetz for Piazza? How’d that trade work out for the ’98 Mets? In ’99 and ’00 they were World Series contenders. The Marlins did nothing.

    How about Jantzen, Gordon and Jarvis for David Cone? How did that work out for the ’95 Yanks? Cone went 9-2 down the stretch, re-signed in free agency, won game 3 of the ’96 World Series, won 20 games in ’98, won game 2 of the ’99 WS, etc., and the Yanks won four rings in Cone’s 6 seasons (1995-2000) with the team.

    Or Day, Ledee and Westbrook for David Justice in 2000? Without Justice, the Yanks don’t win the 2000 WS. Day and Ledee did nothing. Westbrook has been intermittently solid for Cleveland years after the trade.

    Or how about the Braves’ trade to land Fred McGriff in 1993 for three prospects? The Braves started the year 26-27, had climbed within 8 of the Giants, and went 51-18 after the trade. Oh yeah, they won the ’95 Series with McGriff on the team and the three prospects the Padres received did nothing useful.

    It’s not a bad thing for the other team to get good players. The Indians received Joe Carter in the Sutcliffe deal in ’84; Boomer was 37-18 with the BluJs after the Clemens trade. But for the prospects, their value is in the future, not in 2009.

    The Yankees should keep, seek, and sign as many good young players as they can. But trading Montero and Joba to the BluJs is ok even if they “hit their ceilings” because Halliday is what he is: one of the five best pitchers in baseball. And those are not so readily available.

  352. Therston July 15th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    Hughes numbers as a starter are not as bad as you think either.
    Take out the Baltimore game and his ERA is just above 3.5 as a starter with solid peripherals.
    The point was…Hughes was adjusting and improving before he went to the pen.
    Again…the truth is the truth not just all positives or all negatives and he has alot of value.

  353. Dr. Cox July 15th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    You know, we wouldn’t even be IN this situation if freakin’ Wang had lived up to his billing.

    He has hurt us more ways this year than anyone can realize or is choosing to talk about.

  354. Scott July 15th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    yeah good idea let’s trade one of the best prospects (Montero) in the history of our organization.

  355. Chris July 15th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    For the 1st time since ’93 I sat home last October and refused to watch baseball and I’ll be damned if I’ll do it again by seeing a one-year overhyped wonder like Joba Chamberlain get in the way of it.
    Do the deal and don’t look back. Roy Halladay is proven and Joba Chamberlain is looking for a clue.

  356. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    LIKE I SAID If I’m trading that package, screw ROY HOLLADAY I want Josh Johnson or King Felix.

    And for the Yankees fan that is saying Philly has no one, look the Yankees do not have a position player outplaying Micheal Taylor, Kyle Drabek is thier equivalent of Joba, so again don’t short change them.

  357. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Theo isn’t trading for Halladay. Not gonna happen.

    They really don’t need him. And they already have too many starters as it is.

    We heard the media repeat many times about how Mark Teixeira and Johan Santana were on their way to Boston.

    Didn’t exactly work out that way.

  358. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    ‘Go young. If you’re willing to deal Joba+Montero for Halladay, why not float the SAME deal for Felix or Johnson?”

    Because Felix and Johnson probably aren’t available until they’re FAs.

    I’m all for the Yanks signing King Felix in 2011. I really, really want them to.

    The big difference between Halladay being available for trade and the young guys are not is about $15 million.

    And FWIW, Seattle and the Marlins–especially the Marlins–are still in contention. There’s utterly no reason for these teams to blow themselves up, other than that Jeffrey Loria seems to have a thing for pretty explosions.

  359. Mike July 15th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Just because Hanley Ramirez became great does not mean anything.

    How many of the propects that the Red Sox give up actually become something. Im sure there are some, like Freddy Sanchez, but I’d venture there are more like Jorge de la Rosa.

    Anibal Sanchez or whatever his name his threw a no hitter, but has he been good that past couple years?

  360. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Patrick Bateman,

    If you like it when people throw 100 mph heaters at other people’s heads bc they have a red “B” on their hat, then I’m afraid we can’t have a big boy discussion on this blog.

  361. Derek July 15th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    I would absolutely make this trade.

    Joba, Austin and Jesus for Roy? In a second.

  362. CT23 July 15th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    toronto wants major league ready talent

    so

    halladay for joba, mitre, miranda, and romnie (even though hes not ready for the bigs hes a good prospect with a lot of upside)and of course, cash

  363. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    “The Yankees should keep, seek, and sign as many good young players as they can. But trading Montero and Joba to the BluJs is ok even if they “hit their ceilings” because Halliday is what he is: one of the five best pitchers in baseball. And those are not so readily available.”

    Wow. This is a dumb post. Sorry.

    Those ‘prospects’ included in those trades WERE NOT BLUE CHIP PROSPECTS.

    Joba, Montero, Hughes are blue chip prospects. Lester was a blue chipper. Longoria, Lincecum, Wieters, Braun (prior to their ML debuts) were blue chippers.

    The deals you refer to would be like a Jackson+Brackman+Betances type deal, at best.

  364. Patrick Bateman July 15th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Michael, if you want to trade someone because of a “personal grudge” he has with another major league player who is on ANOTHER TEAM, and due to his press quotes, then you need your head examined.

  365. Tom K July 15th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    The mentality of the “modern” Yankee fan sometimes bewilders me.
    And I am “only” 35 years old, myself. Yet, for some strange reason, I don’t consider it my right for the Yankees to win the WS every year. Or make the playoffs every year. Or even win more than half of the games they play every year.
    I have talked to many people who will tell me that the most exciting year of baseball they saw was not 1996. Not 1998. Not 1999. Not 2000. Not even the great 2001 World Series. Rather, it was 1993…because the team finally gave us “craving” Yankees fans something to really cheer about. And that was the starting point for the big run to come a few years later.
    I won’t complain if they get Roy Halladay. But talking about it as if it guarantees what some appear to believe is their “right” to win is just very weird.
    Halladay guarantees the Yankees absolutely nothing. Just like signing CC guaranteed them nothing…or Teix. Or Carl Pavano.
    Personally, I’d rather see Joba sink or swim with the Yankees rather than someplace else. And the posts I read now about Joba just make me cringe; all of a sudden he has this terrible attitude. He is the same person now that he was two years ago, people.

  366. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    “I would absolutely make this trade.

    Joba, Austin and Jesus for Roy? In a second.”

    Thank god wiser individuals run the team.

  367. Andrew July 15th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    I don’t think it’s an assumption the Yankees will get Chapman. It’s just an assumption that they are going to want him and put up a big bid for his services, probably around what the Sox paid Daisuke. He is the antithesis of the Yankees’ last marquee international signing (Sunglasses Igawa) in terms of stuff and “upside”, so I hope they aggressively pursue him come winter.

  368. Wanzies July 15th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Derek,

    I’d prefer SJ’s hypothetical from last night (Joba/Jackson/XXX/XXX/XXX for Halladay/Rios).

    Rogers Co. has $5B (with a B) in debt on its balance sheet. Moving Rios would make the bankers (who are calling the shots) happy.

  369. Steve B July 15th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    “1. The Boston series where he pitched 250 innings.
    2. The Phillies series where he pitched 4 times in a row prior to the playoffs on 3 days rest each time”

    He sucked against the Yankees the same year he pitched against Boston. He was fortunate that Wang sucked worse. FWIW, his 2nd start in the Boston series was really pretty good. He was pitching in and out of trouble, but that was a 2-1 game against Beckett heading to the 7th, when the wheels came off for CC and the Tribe.

  370. Patrick Bateman July 15th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    “He sucked against the Yankees the same year he pitched against Boston”

    That was the same year he pitched 250 innings in the regular season.

    Thanks for further proving my point.

  371. Therston July 15th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    Exactly Matt.

  372. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    “Because Felix and Johnson probably aren’t available until they’re FAs.”

    For that package they would be.

    You tell Seattle hey Joba/Jesus for King Felix they do it. You tell FLA hey Joba/Jesus for Josh Johnson they do it.

    Jesus is a 30 HR 100 RBI type catcher/1B/COF
    Joba has more service yrs. left.

  373. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    Patrick Bateman,

    Pay attention! The reason Joba was even taken by the Yanks is bc other teams saw his arm injury history as too much of a risk. Also, there was talk of alcoholism in the family (see last October) as another reason why he might not fully realize his potential. His rise to the majors is remarkable despite his family history but, fair or not, these things do matter.

  374. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus July 15th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    I think CC’s poor start(s) last postseason can be directly attributed to his miracle run to get the Brewers there in the first place.

    He simply tired.

  375. Yankee Trader July 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    Pete-

    Halladay and Chris Carpenter, when healthy are probably currently the two best pitchers age 32 and over.

    You can peruse his situational stats over the last few years.

    http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/p.....2009/18820

    These are the reasons against trading for Roy Halladay:

    1. He is recovering from an injury. If he’s still hurt/rusty maybe that explains his non-dominant poor pitching last night.

    2. His contract and extension costs a premium of an extra 40% in luxury tax, even with some 40M coming off the books next year. You have no idea what the net revenue stream will be this year in a down economy.

    3. Chamberlain has been erratic in the starting rotation, even suffering from shoulder tendinitis last year. Not to say he belongs in the bullpen, but what evidence do we have that he won’t be a dominationg setup, to become heir apparent to Rivera as future closer?

    4. I’m not including Montero in any deal for Halladay. He’s the most exciting power prospect to come up in our minor league system since?????

    5. I’m certainly not willing to take on Wells contract in addition. If I took on Rios contract also, I’d have to give them salary in exchange, and Damon and Matsui are not waving their NTR’s to play in Toronto. And nobody wants Igawa!!!

    6. If you are willing to give away our best talent I’m insisting on looking at young ace starters-Felix Hernandez, Greinke, Lester, Josh Johnson, Dan Haren, Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Verlander, and none of them, I realize would probably not be available.

    7. Lastly, I’d do my best to drive up the price, hoping he stays in Toronto, where his price will come down, or at least gets traded to the NL.

    MY thoughts. Feel free to argue!!!

  376. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    “I would absolutely make this trade.

    Joba, Austin and Jesus for Roy? In a second.”

    A wise GM doesn’t.

    The difference w/ getting Doc w/o using your assets is what 12 mths., just look back at Teix or Salty for Joba 2 yrs. ago, who’s at 1B today ? (Teix) who’s still w/ us ? (Joba)

  377. JasonR July 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    “Theo refused to give up another one of his young prized kids for Johan Santana as well two years ago.

    That kid’s name is Jon Lester.

    Do you think Theo regrets not making that deal now?

    I’d say probably not.”

    If the win a title this year, then it all works out in the end. But getting Santana last year probably wins them the World Series and makes them the overwhelming favorites to three-peat.

    It’s an apples and oranges comparison though. Theo didn’t make the trade because he felt that they had enough to win a World Series without the trade. Can you say the same about Cashman in this instance?

    I haven’t scrolled through every post, but what I’m noticing is that people who are vehemently against the trade aren’t saying “Look, we have enough to win the championship.” Why would we do this?

    The goal is to win a championship, not to build up prospects. If the prospects are going to help us win a championship, then great! If they’re not, then IN THE RIGHT TRADE, they should be available.

  378. Rayvt July 15th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    YankeeRay
    July 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    LOL! If you were FL Marlins would you trade Josh Johnson for Joba, Montero & Melancon plus a couple more prospects?

    If you were Toronto, would you trade Halladay & Wells for Dellin Betances, Zach McAllister, Nick Swisher & Bradley Suttle?

  379. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    This conversation is awesome, but if anyone here really believes that the Bluejays are going to send the best pitcher in baseball UP the standings in their own division, then you’ve really lost touch with reality.

    We could send them our ENTIRE AAA team, and they still wouldn’t trade him to us.

    @craigster, iirc posada is the only catcher CC has a winning record with

  380. bru July 15th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    the hard thing is to trade & get the better end of the deal.

    if we trade montero,joba & ajax for halladay & halladay is great for us but we win nothing & he is great for 3 yrs and montero becomes a league average catcher but mashes like pujols we get burned alone on the one player.

    if joba & ajax are great we get destroyed by the trade.

    but very unlikely.

    if halladay wins us 1 or 2 ws & joba,montero,ajax are all league average well you know the rest.

    it is very hard to speculate or predict the future.

    did boston get the better of the hanley trade?

    i say they did?
    pitching wins.

    i give up joba,a catcher(romine),a ss(pena),maybe ajax but not joba,montero,ajax & maybe another unless the rs are close to getting him.

  381. Mike July 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Tom . . does David Cone and Roger Clemens ring a bell

  382. Mike July 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Tom K,

    how do you know that Joba is same person today that he was 2 years ago. People change, attitudes change every day.

    It’s not a right to win every year, and nothing guarantees a world series…

    but Roy makes it as close to a guarantee as possible, and what Yankee fan or Giants fan or Rangers or Knicks fan does not want to make the playoffs each year and win?

  383. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    I wouldn’t deal Joba and Jesus for Doc but I would for

    King Felix
    Tim Lincecum
    Josh Johnson
    Justin Verlander

    That’s all.

  384. JasonR July 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    TomB,

    You’re right. I don’t think it will happen. But if the Jays are willing to make that trade, then you have to take it. How are you going to sell to Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera that “Hey, we could have gotten Roy Halladay, the best pitcher on the planet, but we decided that we’re building towards a championship in 2012 instead of 2009″

  385. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    “If you were Toronto, would you trade Halladay & Wells for Dellin Betances, Zach McAllister, Nick Swisher & Bradley Suttle?”

    If I’m Toronto I tell you to lose my number.

  386. Christina July 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    The Jays aren’t going to give up Halladay for garbage players, especially within their own division. Its going to be a painful deal. You either want him and give up good guys, or you accept the team you have and try to find a somewhat decent starter down the road.

    Do you think the Yankees have what it takes right now to advance deep into the playoffs? Remember, pitching is what wins, especially when you are in the playoff realm and are facing teams with tough pitchers in which your offense isn’t going to score 5+ runs. You have CC and Burnett, but do you really trust Joba or Andy as your #3 starter?

  387. Patrick Bateman July 15th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    “Patrick Bateman,
    Pay attention! The reason Joba was even taken by the Yanks is bc other teams saw his arm injury history as too much of a risk. Also, there was talk of alcoholism in the family (see last October) as another reason why he might not fully realize his potential. His rise to the majors is remarkable despite his family history but, fair or not, these things do matter.”

    Pay attention? You didnt say anything about arm injury in your other posts. So pay attention to what you’re typing. Your two points were about his grudge with Youkilis and his quotes after his starts in the clubhouse.

    Also tell me how much time Joba has missed on the DL, then tell me how much time Hughes has missed on the DL and get back to me.

  388. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    “The goal is to win a championship, not to build up prospects. If the prospects are going to help us win a championship, then great! If they’re not, then IN THE RIGHT TRADE, they should be available.”

    Thought experiment.

    You have two choices.

    Choice 1: You are guaranteed that the Yankees will make the playoffs for the next six years (including this year). Each year, they have a 12.5% chance of winning.

    Choice 2: You are guaranteed the Yankees will make the playoffs this year and next, and then will NOT win the World Series for the next 4 years. Further, you are guaranteed they will go to the World Series. Each year, the odds of winning are 50%.

    It seems like fans here prefer Choice 2. I prefer 1.

  389. Steve B July 15th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    “That was the same year he pitched 250 innings in the regular season.”

    He threw 241 innings in ’07. He’s on pace to throw 236 this year. Does this mean we can excuse a sub-standard playoff performance?

  390. m July 15th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Let’s turn the table for a second.

    If you’re Roy Halladay, where would you want to end up? Like for the next five years? Lots of nice places with good teams.

    The reason why I ask is, if it’s Philly or another NL team do you hold off on an extension if you want to pitch in the AL?

  391. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    “”“If you were Toronto, would you trade Halladay & Wells for Dellin Betances, Zach McAllister, Nick Swisher & Bradley Suttle?”

    If I’m Toronto I tell you to lose my number.”

    If I’m Toronto, I make that deal in a heartbeat.

    Wells has the worst contract in baseball, non-Barry Zito division. His contract is hamstringing that organization for years.

  392. sunny615 July 15th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Too bad the Yanks don’t have Dioner Navarro anymore… how bad was that trade…

  393. Uncle Ellsworth July 15th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    WHEN I was Brian Cashman
    I heard a wise man say,
    “Give Ajax and Mac and Betances
    But not your Montero away;
    Give Joba away and Phil 5
    But keep your Backstop free.”
    But I was Brian Cashman,
    No use to talk to me.

    The opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the poster.
    Thanks to AE Housman

  394. Mike NY July 15th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    sorry Mike for using the same name. Didnt know there was another Mike.

  395. GreenBeret7 July 15th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    Rayvt
    July 15th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
    YankeeRay
    July 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    LOL! If you were FL Marlins would you trade Josh Johnson for Joba, Montero & Melancon plus a couple more prospects?

    If you were Toronto, would you trade Halladay & Wells for Dellin Betances, Zach McAllister, Nick Swisher & Bradley Suttle

    ————————————————————

    Nobody’s trading for Brad Suttle, who just had a 2nd shoulder operation, this one for a torn Labrum or Betances, who quite likely will need TJ surgery within a year, in any deal for Halladay or anybody else except Noah Lowery.

  396. 86w183 July 15th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    I love trade speculation when it makes sense. I hate it when it gets stupid.

    The Marlins are four games out of first place and Josh Johnson (8-2, 2.74) is 25, one of the best pitchers in the game and makes virtually nothing. Exactly how drunk do you think the Marlins’ management would have to be before they would trade him? No way on earth that happens.

    If not Halladay, Cliff Lee is a realistic possibility, but would carry a hefty price tag. Look for guys who are impending FA on bad teams and you might find a deal. Doug Davis of Arizona is about the only guy in that category.

  397. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    Patrick Bateman,

    All you’ve done is bashed other people’s ideas while offering no definitive ideas of your own. I would like to hear your OWN thoughts on matters. Do you have any?

  398. bru July 15th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    i can’t believe i now get the yes network.

    just got u-verse a new phone,tv,internet package because i didn’t get the yes network with my old dish package.

    the first thing i told the guy who installed it is to put on yes as he was surfing.

    it is still on.

    tino martinez special on.
    how he wen’t to school in florida,got drafted by the rs,passed & wen’t to college.

  399. Christina July 15th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    Why would Toronto want Nick Swisher??? They would be better off just keeping crappy Vernon Wells for goodness sake.

  400. Matt K. July 15th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    Uhh guys..i hope you know we could trade Joba + Montero for Doc i mean after all we are the Yankees and we could go out and sign them when their big time free agents haha.

    Anyway, i would trade for Doc but not that much. I’d give that for someone like..Lincecum, Josh Johnson, Verlander, Felix Hernandez, Scott Kazmir..maybe Cole Hamels. Someone young with a big arm and isn’t a basket case.

  401. DB July 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    I’m a little perplexed of the “regret the trade for a decade comments”. Teams don’t control players for a decade. The last 10 year contract I remember was Jeter. Before that, Dave Winfield. Steinbrenner loathed that contract he gave to Winfield.

    My point is, Joba, Hughes, and Montero will be under team control for no more than 5 years. (Maybe longer for Montero, but he is no where near MLB ready). After that they will be Free Agents.

    None of those players will amount to Halladay of the next 2 and there is a 90% chance they won’t compare to him in the 3 after that.

    Pettitte came back to the Yanks, let whoever it is who gets traded get their game together somewhere else if it means bringing the AL starting pitcher for the All-Star Game.

    I’d prefer moving Joba over Hughes too.

  402. vinny-b (RIP Air McNair) July 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    trading Montero = trading a future Joe Mauer

    can’t do it. And won’t do it

  403. Yankee Trader July 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    “If you were Toronto, would you trade Halladay & Wells for Dellin Betances, Zach McAllister, Nick Swisher & Bradley Suttle?”

    If I’m Toronto I tell you to lose my number.
    —————————————————

    Not so fast. If I’m Riccardi I’d say “Are you serious about taking Wells, let me sleep on it after I get back to ownership I’ll call you.”

  404. Mike RI July 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    sorry Mike. .from now on i’ll use — Mike RI

  405. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    “Why would Toronto want Nick Swisher??? They would be better off just keeping crappy Vernon Wells for goodness sake.”

    Have you seen Wells’ contract?

  406. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    “Wells has the worst contract in baseball, non-Barry Zito division. His contract is hamstringing that organization for years.”

    If I’m a BlueJays fan I cancel my season tickets for that crap that you call a fair deal.

    When Philly is offering me Drabek and Taylor, you come back w/ that ? and call it fair ? I don’t give a damn about Wells and realistically the Yankees aren’t taking that contract, they’ve been dying to get out of Igawa’s contract, Damon, Matsui, just gave A-rod a longterm, Teix a longterm…you think they want another (crappy) longterm ?

  407. Patrick Bateman July 15th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    “He threw 241 innings in ‘07. He’s on pace to throw 236 this year. Does this mean we can excuse a sub-standard playoff performance?”

    I’m not excusing his performance, but his two recent playoff appearances have been after either pitching on 3 days rest, four times in a row or after pitching 241 innings. Its obvious that he’s a horse, but he does have a point when he does run out of gas.

    So the smart thing to do, would be to limit his innings a bit and preserve that talent, instead of letting him pitch 120+ pitches and complete games when he doesn’t have to so that come playoff time he’s got some gas left in the tank.

  408. Jake July 15th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    You are definitely on the right track Pete!

    But i would do something more on the lines of this…

    Joba
    Romine
    Betances
    John Rodriguez
    **AND: Take on Alex Rios and his contract

  409. E-gawa July 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    It’s going to take Hughes and more in that deal to get Halladay.

    Joba is overrated. He’s a “Maybe” and a “What if” If a team wants to try and fix him. With his stock this low, I’d keep him to the side and try and fix him ourselves to put back in the pen.

  410. Therston July 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    What trade combination from the other teams involved can beat Joba, Romine and Brackman?
    AND If they can…they can have him and we get a Washburn type and drive up the price enough to hurt the other teams.

  411. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    Patrick Bateman,

    “I’m not excusing his post-season performance, but (enter excuse here).”

    By the way, I’m still waiting on some ideas……..

  412. Mike RI July 15th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    we’ll find out in 2 weeks .

  413. vinny-b (RIP Air McNair) July 15th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    if JP (aka the Pimp) Riccardi wants a catcher, let him take Romine.

    Joba, Romine, McCallister, Nunez, Betances

  414. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    “If I’m a BlueJays fan I cancel my season tickets for that crap that you call a fair deal.

    When Philly is offering me Drabek and Taylor, you come back w/ that ? and call it fair ? I don’t give a damn about Wells and realistically the Yankees aren’t taking that contract, they’ve been dying to get out of Igawa’s contract, Damon, Matsui, just gave A-rod a longterm, Teix a longterm…you think they want another (crappy) longterm ?”

    The money they’re giving Wells allows them to sign players better than Drabek and Taylor.

    Of course, they’d need a solid prospect in return (not Halladay+Wells for Kei Igawa). But that Wells deal is beyond horrendous, and if they can somehow shake it off, they absolutely must.

  415. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    And Philly ain’t trading Drabek AND Taylor.

  416. S.A.--Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    1). Joba isn’t going anywhere, he’ll be in the rotation until the end of the regular season:

    AGREE

    2). Wang will make more starts this year for the Yankees:

    AGREE

    3). Halladay will get traded to the Phillies:

    AGREE

    4). The Yanks will make a trade for a mediocre starting pitcher but the pitcher won’t pitch well after being traded:

    DISAGREE. I think the Yankees will make a trade for a pitcher not named Halladay and mystery pitcher will do an adequate job.

    5). Damaso Marte will return to the majors but he won’t be very good:

    Kinda DISAGREE, I think he will come back and give us good and bad moments.

    6). Mark Melancon will become an important part of the bullpen:

    DISAGREE, I think he will be a bit up and down too. I’m a little worried about him. Though I hope I am wrong.

    7). A-rod will have a very good second half:

    AGREE

    8). Yanks will win the division:

    AGREE

  417. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    If fans here are down on Joba, what makes you think the Jays aren’t, also?

  418. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    I’m can’t wait to see the next panic move Cashman comes up with. Srsly a genius GM figures out how to land a stud young SP w/ our package. A Lincecum, a Felix Hernandez, a Josh Johnson who’s contract is coming up and that type of deal would help both teams. Doc Halladay you trade big pieces that will play you and beat on you for the next 10 yrs. while you longterm another ageing SP who has alot of innings logged in that arm.

  419. john July 15th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    Yankees wouldn’t move Hughes Kennedy and some other pieces for Santana, how can you give up Joba, Montero and other peices for Halladay? That is a far better package.

    I would say do the Beckett/Lowell trade. Montero if need be or Joba as the lead pieces and then minor leaguers McAllister, Betcances, whomever. You want to hold onto Jackson. They you get Halladay and take the underperforming contract of Rios off their hands. Yankees need an OF in the offseason, Rios can flat out hit, he just isn’t a 3rd or 4th guy. How great would he be in the OF and slotted 5th? I would take Rios just as much as I would Holliday or others out there. Jays get some nice young chips and free cap room.

    Overall can’t see anything happening with the Yanks reagrdless if the Sox aren’t in it either.

  420. Rayvt July 15th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    Christina
    July 15th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
    Why would Toronto want Nick Swisher??? They would be better off just keeping crappy Vernon Wells for goodness sake.

    LOL! I agree with this. But Swish could be traded somewhere for a prospect to include in a Toronto deal.

  421. G. Love July 15th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    Brandon,

    To say Drabek is equal to Joba is just silly. We get it, you’re in LOVE with Philly prospects. You’ve been advocating trying to get them for Wang for weeks.

    Drabek isn’t even in the majors and hasn’t had a sniff of the success at this level that Joba has.

  422. ED July 15th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    I agree 100%–Halladay is right now the best RH pitcher in baseball. If A. Jackson was as good as people are claiming he will be– why get Hinske? and Joba, whatever the issues are, will never be as good as Halladay. What we don’t want to happen is for the RS to put together a more attractive offer and Halladay go to Boston–if that happens–turn out the lights the party’s over! Boston probably has better talent to offer.

  423. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    Patrick Bateman,

    Your idea of limiting the innings of the only reliable starter we have in the rotation sounds brilliant! Especially considering that our bullpen has, what, the 4th most innings pitched in the majors this year? Brilliant, simply brilliant! Let me know how THAT works out.

    Thanks for stopping by!

  424. KyleLitke July 15th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    I’d be really reluctant to give up Montero, although as Pete says, you have to give up something good. I’d rather try for a deal of Joba, Jackson, Romine, and maybe a fourth solid player (a Melancon, or a Betances, or a McAllister). But that probably doesnt get it done unless they have no concern about Joba at all.

    I don’t see taking on Wells contract as making any sense either. The Yankees are talking about reducing payroll, now they’re going to take on a guy (not even including Halladay’s contract) making I think 12 millionish next year and then 21 million for a few years after that? Whose production isn’t even going to be in the ballpark of that? If the Yankees have an unlimited payroll then fine, but everything we’ve heard since the kids took over is no, they don’t, and they’re looking to reduce payroll. Which means taking on Wells means no signing Damon/Holliday/Bay/anyone to take over left field, your outfield will be Melky/Gardner, Swisher, Wells and your DH will be who the heck knows, think Shelley Duncan can hit there?

    I’d love to get Halladay but I don’t really want Wells unless it means Toronto gets worthless prospects back, which it wouldn’t, they’d still want some good players. As far as who would be off limits to me to get Halladay, I wouldn’t want to trade Hughes and I’d seriously have to think about trading Montero, because I’d really rather not do that. Everyone else, not off limits.

  425. Stultus Magnus July 15th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    I can’t wait until 1) Yanks start up again Friday, and 2) trade deadline passes.

    This is like Posadagate except it will never stop until Halladay is traded or it’s August 1st.

    It is funny how with everything being repeated 100 times, some dude will still say “they won’t trade within the division,” which has been debunked about 100 times.

  426. E-gawa July 15th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    “If fans here are down on Joba, what makes you think the Jays aren’t, also?”

    Exactly.

  427. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    JasonR July 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    If the win a title this year, then it all works out in the end. But getting Santana last year probably wins them the World Series and makes them the overwhelming favorites to three-peat.

    ————

    That’s where you are dead wrong. You never assume anything.

    One player doesn’t guarantee jack. They don’t play the games on paper.

    A-Rod guaranteed the Yanks were going to win a ring or two from 2004 to 2008 and it hasn’t exactly worked out that way.

    I will guarantee you one thing, though. I bet Theo thanks his lucky stars looking back on the decision not to give up Lester for Santana.

    No question about it.

  428. bru July 15th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    Buck Nasty
    July 15th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
    You cant build a team just by going out and throwing money at people wanzies. how well did that work for us in the 2000’s. a couple of guys thats ok but you cant jus have a team of mercs, that isnt how u succeed in building an organization

    ————————————————————

    i don’t but it.

    if we signed becket,santanna,halladay lets just say they were all free agents.forget the possibility of that happening.

    would we win the ws with our newly bought players & this rotation.

    cc
    becket
    santanna
    halladay
    burnett

    we are close to being able to win it all.
    sometimes you have to buy a player to get over the top.

    i am very curious to see how joba responds to his name being tossed around in all these trade rumore.

    what happens if he pitches a gem??

  429. Doreen July 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    bru –

    I’m watching the Tino Yankeeography, too. It just makes me sad, though because I don’t think the Yankees needed to replace him with Jason Giambi. That move upset me then, and still bothers me now. Of course, you get used to whatever team you’re presented with, which is why, whatever the Yankees decide to do with the Halladay/pitching situation, we’ll all get used to it.

  430. Patrick Bateman July 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    “Patrick Bateman,
    All you’ve done is bashed other people’s ideas while offering no definitive ideas of your own. I would like to hear your OWN thoughts on matters. Do you have any?”

    My idea was to trade for a 28 year old Johan Santana two years ago when only two teams were in the running for him and the Twins were offering a window for a contract extension. Yet 99% of the people on this site thought that giving up players like Ian Kennedy and Melky Cabrera was inexcusable.

    Now everyone is on board for a trade for a pitcher who is 4 years older, which will cost more prospects, and lack a window for extension negotiation.

    Bad business at its best.

  431. Yankee Trader July 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    Halladay IMHO, will get traded before the deadline. After last nights pitiful performance however, I’d be second guessing whether I want to give up the 2-3 best prospects or future stars on my team.

  432. john July 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    trading Montero = trading a future Joe Mauer

    unless the Yankees end up signing Mauer when he hits FA instead.

  433. Christina July 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    Someone else- The Yankees would be foolish to take on Vernons contract also. And for Swisher, come on?

    Also, for the person who mentioned John Rodriguez, he is on the DL with a really bad hammy injury. The Jays aren’t going to want any of that.

    I dont understand how you guys dont realize that IF you want Halladay its going to hurt. Its not a matter of giving away 4-5 decent guys. You have to give away someone good. This guy is basically their franchise. They clearly are trying to build up their team which is why they would want to trade him away. Your not gonna build your team around a guy like Nick Swisher or John Rodriguez. They need a catcher and Montero, or someone of that sort would work well for them.

  434. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    When the Red Sox dealt Hanley Ramirez/Anibal Sanchez they landed Josh Beckett a 24 yr. old potential ACE not Roger Clemens, not David Wells, not Randy Johnson…someone that was high ceiling and establishing himself as a future top tier player w/ his service yrs. controlled.

    It baffles how stupid this fanbase is when they panic.

  435. Bronx Jeers July 15th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Don’t believe the hype, it’s a sequel. As an equal can I get this through to you.

    -Chuck D.

    Hallady ‘s been looking a bit non-Doc like recently.

    Want proof?

    He lost to the Yankees.

    Seriously, Doc’s obviously awesome but I think the Yanks will have to pay more than everybody else.

    Forget about it.

  436. KyleLitke July 15th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Why are people talking about trading Swisher? The Yankees are already losing their DH and left fielder next year. Why in world would you want to trade Swisher, who gets on base a lot, works the pitchers, plays solid defense, and hits for good power? He’s not a perfect player but he’s a good solid right fielder, and the last thing we need is to get rid of another outfielder when we’re already losing Damon and Matsui after this season (short of resigning Damon…don’t see Matsui getting resigned).

  437. rconn23 July 15th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Seatlle would hang up laughing if you offered Chamberlain and Montero for Felix Hernandez. Why would they trade a 24-year old ace for “potential”.

    Josh Johnson is not getting traded either. Why would Florida do that? He’s dominant right now.

    Again, what sense what it make?

    Montero has the potential to be a great hitter, but he’s 19 in AA. And more than likely, he’ll be a DH in five years.

    Joba Chamberlain has potential to be an ace, but his health is a major question mark. His velocity has dipped and hitters are laying off his slider and crushing his fastball.

    Again, trading for Halladay is trading “potential” for a proven commodity.

  438. G. Love July 15th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Here’s my issue with Joba right now.

    I also think his problems are conditioning related.

    Some of you think that is easily fixed and it may be, but when a player has a conditioning issue or a lack of motivation/focus to condition themselves, those problems crop up a lot during their careers and in some cases lead to injury.

    If Joba loves being a rock star more than wanting to be the best pitcher he can be in his career it’s a problem.

    He’ll flame out. He doesn’t have the stuff or body/ability or a Wells type who had a rubber arm.

    I think what a lot of us are scared about right now is that we may care about Joba’s conditioning more than Joba does.

    I’ll give Phil this…the guy looks like he built himself up physically and looks to be in tremendous shape.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Toronto preferred Phil to Joba.

  439. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    “I don’t see how you can possibly think the Yankees can make the playoffs with this rotation. ”

    Uhh I think that because they are in the wild card lead and have had largely the same rotation for the whole year.

    You people are just overreacting because the Yankees just lost 3 games and Joba and Pettitte have had 2 bad starts in a row. Overreaction and panic at it’s finest.

  440. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    “unless the Yankees end up signing Mauer when he hits FA instead.”

    He’s thier Derek Jeter, Minnesota is his town (YES BRETT HIS TOWN !) he’s not leaving, hometown boy, the King of Minny. Fat chance.

  441. Mike RI July 15th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    I don’t see the big deal in trading Montero. . Its not like we are trading him to Boston !. He’ll be rotting in Toronto while Holliday will be dominating at least for the next 3 to 4 years ! .

    You have to make that trade!

  442. DB July 15th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    This is a great article outlining why Rios is worth his contract and not going anywhere. You have to remember he is locked up until 2014.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....rios-wells

    Jays aren’t trading Rios and it is not a bad contract.

    Wells is atrocious. Only way the Jays can get over that contract is trading him and still paying half of it.

  443. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    Patrick Bateman,

    Congrats on the 2 yr. old idea! Do you have any today? As for Santana, our farm system is deeper than it was 2 yrs ago. Also, how’s that working out for the Mess (I mean Mets)?

  444. Rayvt July 15th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    GB

    Nobody’s trading for Brad Suttle, who just had a 2nd shoulder operation, this one for a torn Labrum or Betances, who quite likely will need TJ surgery within a year, in any deal for Halladay or anybody else except Noah Lowery.
    —————————
    Sorry I forgot Suttle got injured again! TY for reminding me. I also did not hear Betances was injured or looking at a TJ surgery.

    But I did know that Josh Johnson had TJ surgery in 2007 and it didn’t seem to hurt him too much. What I was trying to say was with a staff of 2 more aces (fill in the blank – Halladay, J Johnson, etc) the Yankees could well afford to give up very high end Pitchers including Joba for such a deal and still have Hughes/Pettite/Wang as a #5 starter.

  445. Propaghandi July 15th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    The Yankees can’t give up Montero. Or else if they do, they need to do whatever they can to get Mauer when he’s available.

    Pool of players I would pick from to get Halladay:

    Ian Kennedy
    Francisco Cervelli
    Melky Cabrera
    Andrew Brackman
    Alfredo Aceves – his value has to be high now…with Halladay we don’t need Aceves as much.
    Brett Gardner

    Also, what are the specifics of the Wells deal? I’d have to imagine the Jays would take a serious look at any deal if the Yankees were willing to take Wells off their hands. With Wells and Halladay gone, the Jays financial prospects improve dramatically.

    You could DH Wells.

    Matsui’s contract ends this year and I don’t want him back. That’s $13 million off the books.

    Nady’s contract ends this year. $6.55 million off the books.

    Damon’s contract ends this year. $13 million off the books.

    Pettitte’s contract ends this year. $5 million off the books.

    Wangers contract ends this year. $5 million off the books.

    Dump Kevin Cash. $700K

    Molina’s contract ends this year. $2 million off the books.

    That’s $45.2 million off the books this year. More than enough to pay Halladay and swallow Wells’ contract.

    Bring up Austin Jackson. Resign Hinske. Keep Swisher (or trade him away for young outfield talent).

    I really think the Yankees can nab Halladay without giving up Montero, Hughes, Joba, and Jackson as long as they get creative. There’s a lot coming off the books this year and the Yankees have some considerable trade bait including Swisher who lots of teams have a chubby for.

  446. rconn23 July 15th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    “trading Montero = trading a future Joe Mauer”

    There’s a line from The Wolf in Pulp Fiction that comes to mind when reading this quote, but it’s a family blog.

  447. Patrick Bateman July 15th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    I’d agree with Brandon in that if you’re gonna put together a package like that you go after Josh Johnson or Felix.

    You’re not gonna get Lincecum, so no need to worry about that.

  448. Mrs. Kekich July 15th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    Yankees should make Pete’s trade in a heartbeat. This team is built to win NOW. And if Joba and Montero turn out to be great players, big deal … you sign them in a few years when they are free agents. Or you sign other guys – jason Bay, Josh Johnson. The way the Yankees run their team, you can’t have it both ways – win now AND develop players. It just can’t happen. Cashman and the Yanks showed the way they prefer to go this offseason in signing the three top free agents. People point to other great pitchers at 23 and how Joba stacks up – you leave out one important factor – they didnt play for the Yankees. bernie Williams will never happen again in the bronx because after 2 or 3 years he’d be platooned or demoted or traded in this atmosphere.

  449. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    *REPOST*

    When the Red Sox dealt Hanley Ramirez/Anibal Sanchez they landed Josh Beckett a 24 yr. old potential ACE not Roger Clemens, not David Wells, not Randy Johnson…someone that was high ceiling and establishing himself as a future top tier player w/ his service yrs. controlled.

    It baffles how stupid this fanbase is when they panic.

  450. Trevor July 15th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    I have a headache reading all this Halladay talk.

  451. Someone Else July 15th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    “I’m can’t wait to see the next panic move Cashman comes up with. Srsly a genius GM figures out how to land a stud young SP w/ our package. A Lincecum, a Felix Hernandez, a Josh Johnson who’s contract is coming up and that type of deal would help both teams. Doc Halladay you trade big pieces that will play you and beat on you for the next 10 yrs. while you longterm another ageing SP who has alot of innings logged in that arm.”

    I’d say most likely of the three to be dealt is Johnson, and that’s not til the offseason. He’s already said he’s going to free agency. Lincecum is NOT being moved. Felix is highly unlikely.

  452. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    So how long would it take Yankee fans to turn on Halladay the first time he lost to the Red Sox, Rays, Mets, or Angels?

    I can almost hear the “Halladay is not a true ace,” “Halladay can’t handle NY,” and “Halladay chokes in the postseason” arguments already.

  453. DB July 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    What is troubling is there record against Boston and Anahiem. It’s all psychological, but something has to change in order for the Yanks to get past them. Halladay could get them over that hump.

    Patrick, do you really think the Yanks can get past those two teams? Please tell me how.

  454. sab July 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    the marlins traded miguel cabrera (yes willis was in that deal too but NO ONE would have thought he was going to fall off the face of the earth so quickly)for andrew miller and cameron maybin 2 players that were supposed to be superstars- that was 2 years ago..

    now they can still become good players – but the tigers realized that getting a cabrera – a top 5 hitter in the game for essentially 2 prospects was worth it – and so far they were right…

    same situation here – trading montero and joba (yes joba is still a prospect as he hasn’t accomplished anything in this league yet except to sell a few tshirts with his name on them) for a top 3 pitcher is well worth the risk…

  455. Christina July 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    Propaghandi-Those are the only players the Jays can choose from? Why would they want any of those guys?

  456. Uncle Ellsworth July 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    Trevor
    July 15th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
    I have a headache reading all this Halladay talk.

    I need a holiday from Halladay
    Calgon take me away!

    BTW K Jones is the best radio personality on NY radio

  457. gayle July 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    SJ_

    Agree with all of your earlier points except the following. You said that only Derek Jeter has become the cornerstone of the franchise from the team’s prospects.

    I would have to disagree with you there. I consider Posada, MO and even in some respects Andy cornerstones.

  458. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    Giuseppe Franco,

    We probably would turn on him. That’s why we’re “fans”.

  459. jay destro July 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    btw i agree with pete.

  460. S.A.--Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    I wouldn’t deal Joba and Jesus for Doc but I would for

    King Felix
    Tim Lincecum
    Josh Johnson
    Justin Verlander

    That’s all.

    ================================

    King Felix? Come to mama.
    I would pack Jobber’s bags and take him to the airport myself in exchange Felix

  461. Observer283 July 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    PTPH, I was actually worried about the Angels series for precisely this reason. If Joba and Andy had gone out there and given teh Yankees great starts, they win 2out of 3, we aren’t having this conversation right now.

    But getting swept by the hated Angels right before the All-Star break (leaving us plenty of time to hyperventialte and talk about trades) pretty much guaranteed this would happen. Especially since Andy and Joba had bad starts.

    Jesus Montero might spend his entire career as a Blue Jay primarily because of that Angels series.

  462. Patrick from CT July 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    If the Yankees do make a deal for Halladay, I’d like to see them give up less and take Rios off the Jay’s hands.
    You’d send Joba or Phil, Swish and a couple of lower level prospecs for Roy and Rio. Sign Roy to an extension at 20mil per year and go for it. I would not want to give up 3 or 4 really good plays for just Halladay.

  463. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    DB,

    The Red Sox and Angels are psychologically in the heads of Yankee fans – not the Yankee players.

    Don’t confuse the two.

  464. Evan July 15th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    I totally agree – I’d give up Joba in a heartbeat for Doc. But anyone who agrees with that proposal is a hypocrite if they wanted Joba in the rotation.

    You all talked about player development. But now with a chance to win you trade him? HYPOCRITES!

    Also, there is no pain in trading Montero. Has anyone heard of a guy named Joe Mauer? Does anyone think he will sign with the Twins when he is a free agent in a couple of years? NO CHANCE.

    He will demand a contract similar to Teixeira and who do you think will go after him? That’s right. The Yanks. So trade Montero, trade Joba, trade Austin Jackson, trade Melky. KEEP Hughes. But do almost anything with the other prospects for Doc. He would resign here and the combination of Halladay, CC, AJ and Hughes down the road spells DYNASTY.

  465. 86w183 July 15th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    Don’t make the mistake of undervaluing money.

    Toronto is in terrible shape financially and if they can get out of long range financial commitments it’s more valuable than any particular prospect.

    Wells makes roughly what Nady/Matsui combined make this year. If the Yankees can handle it now, they can handle it next year. Wells is a better all around player than either of those guys. I wouldn’t do it, but I have no ideas of the Steinbrothers are willing to. The ONLY reason to consider Wells or a more reasonable Rios is to get Halladay without having to include the better players on the wish list.

  466. S.A.--Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    So how long would it take Yankee fans to turn on Halladay the first time he lost to the Red Sox, Rays, Mets, or Angels?

    ==================================

    I would give it 3 seconds :)

  467. Patrick Bateman July 15th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    “Michael
    July 15th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
    Patrick Bateman,
    Your idea of limiting the innings of the only reliable starter we have in the rotation sounds brilliant! Especially considering that our bullpen has, what, the 4th most innings pitched in the majors this year? Brilliant, simply brilliant! Let me know how THAT works out.
    Thanks for stopping by!”

    Michael, thanks again for proving how completely clueless you are. First you want to trade Joba because he doesn’t like Youkilis and gives Peter bad quotes after his loses. Now you are against overusing Sabathia, even though he’s proven twice that he is durable but does have a breaking point.

    You know how many innings the great Wang pitched in 2007 in which he was the “ace” that got us to the playoffs? 199. Do you know how many innings Beckett pitched that same year to lead the Red Sox to the playoffs as their number 1 pitcher? 200. And Sabathia pitched 241 for the Indians and flamed out. Thats almost 5 more complete games than Beckett and Wang.

    You’re demoted to the Scranton board until you get some better command of your baseball knowledge.

  468. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    Evan,

    Developing your farm system to the point where you can have your own stars and trade for others does not make you a hypocrite. It makes you a smart GM.

  469. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    Michael July 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    Giuseppe Franco,

    We probably would turn on him. That’s why we’re “fans”.

    ————-

    Thank you for an honest answer.

    But that knee-jerk reaction exemplifies why we should all be glad a lot smarter people are in charge of the team and making the decisions.

  470. E-gawa July 15th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    “When the Red Sox dealt Hanley Ramirez/Anibal Sanchez they landed Josh Beckett a 24 yr. old potential ACE not Roger Clemens, not David Wells, not Randy Johnson…someone that was high ceiling and establishing himself as a future top tier player w/ his service yrs. controlled.

    It baffles how stupid this fanbase is when they panic.”

    Beckett was also a 15 game winner, experienced post season success, showed ability to go deep into games.. etc.. Are you actually going to compare him to anyone we have right now?

    Do we even have someone that has proven that they can finish a game?

  471. Uncle Ellsworth July 15th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    Patrick Bateman – you KILL me!

  472. sab July 15th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    lincecum, josh johnson,felix hernandez and justin verlander will be available to the yankees in about 8 – 10 years (give or take)- once they are eligible for free agency – which means they’ll all be about 30 – 32 years old – same age as halladay….

    if you think any of them will be traded right now you all better put yourselves in the corner with a dunce hat on…

  473. DB July 15th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    GF, BS…way too many meltdowns and coming back from both teams. Yanks underperform against them. It’s you who has it backwards. I’d burn both teams at the cross if I could.

  474. Evan July 15th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    Michael,

    Are you calling Cashman smart? Because that gave me a good chuckle.

  475. pat July 15th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    I’m Halladay-ed out. :sad:

    How many hours until first pitch Friday?

  476. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    Patrick Bateman,

    Did you read my other posts (apparently not)? I listed several other reasons to why I would trade Joba but you insist that it’s just because he can’t give a good quote and he hates Youk. READ.

    But seriously, I think your idea of limiting your only reliable starter’s innings when your bullpen is about to be taxed and you’re in a tight 3-team race for the division is brilliant.

  477. Tom B July 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    @mike
    fyi, cone was traded from an awful, last place jays team to the yanks for minor prospects, after his cy young season (typical last place team traded its only commodity for the future).

    clemans was traded in the offseason.

    don’t see how either of these apply to this situation

  478. Evan July 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    And, I was calling the people who are pro player development OVER winning World Series hypocrites only if they are now changing their minds.

  479. Laura July 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    “Yanks can just go after Mauer when he’s a FA.”

    MIN is not letting Mauer get away. He and Morneau are the faces of that franchise.

  480. Observer283 July 15th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    The more I think about this, the less this trade makes sense.

    I knwo Halladay’s stuff is supposed to translate better as he ages, but he is 32! And, will be incredibly expensive or a 1.5 year rental.

    Here is another factor to consider:

    Baseball is going through an absolute renaissance with young pitching. There have been a ton of articles about how only two starters at the all star game were over 28. Many of their teams will find a way to sign them. But not ALL of them. The Yankees will be burdened with the CC and AJ contracts. Add a new huge contract for Halladay. When a still in his prime Linceum, King Felix, Josh Johnson, etc. hits the market, the Yankees might not be able to afford him.

    If you think the Yankees pockets are impossible deep, I have two words for you: Carlos. Beltran.

    I just don’t see the point in locking up a new older pitcher for the foreseeable future when so many great young pitchers will come on the market in the next few years.

    So then the alternative will be to trade for Halladay and not re-sign him. Have him as a 1.5 year rental.

    Joba Chaimberlain, Jesus Montero, and AJax for 1.5 years of Halladay.

    PASS.

  481. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Evan,

    Thank you! That’s what I’m here for. If you want, I have a Kei Igawa jersey hanging in my closet (mint condition) that I will sell you for $50.

  482. Laura July 15th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    “I would give it 3 seconds”

    S.A., you are being too generous. It’s more like 1 second.

  483. Uncle Ellsworth July 15th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    54 HOURS

  484. E-gawa July 15th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    Why would you buy a Kei Igawa jersey?

  485. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    “Are you actually going to compare him to anyone we have right now? ”

    Sabathia is better than Beckett.

    Go look at their career numbers, it’s not even a question who’s better.

    “lincecum, josh johnson,felix hernandez and justin verlander will be available to the yankees in about 8 – 10 years (give or take)”

    Not really. Felix is a FA in 2012 when he’s 26. Verlander also hits FA in 2012 but he’ll be 29. Lincecum is an FA in 2014.

    8-10 years? more like 3-5

  486. Bronx Jeers July 15th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    “So how long would it take Yankee fans to turn on Halladay the first time he lost to the Red Sox, Rays, Mets, or Angels?”

    Why even wait for the loss?

    Just pounce on the first run he gives up.

    Whining is a dish best served warm.

  487. E-gawa July 15th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    I mean in the first place.. not now.

  488. Giuseppe Franco July 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    DB July 15th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    GF, BS…way too many meltdowns and coming back from both teams. Yanks underperform against them. It’s you who has it backwards. I’d burn both teams at the cross if I could.

    ———–

    You think so?

    Do you really think the Red Sox are in the heads of Mariano Rivera? Jeter? Posada? Teixeira? A-Rod? Damon?

    That’s baloney. I don’t believe that for a second.

    Torre’s teams couldn’t beat the Angels either and that’s when they were winning rings.

    It means jack. They are in the fans’ heads – not the players’ heads.

    Were the Yanks in the Tribe’s heads in 2007 when they won the season series 6-0 but lost the ALDS to the Tribe in 4 games?

    How about last season when the Angels beat the Red Sox 8-1 during the regular season but lost to the Red Sox in the ALDS.

    Were the Angels in the Red Sox heads, too?

    I tend to doubt it.

  489. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    E-gawa,

    Doesn’t everybody have an Igawa jersey? Am I the only one? Damn!

  490. E-gawa July 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    Patrick,

    Sorry I meant prospect wise.

  491. Rayvt July 15th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Personally I like Wells as a CF in Yankee Stadium. I believe his recent injuries last year & year before have soured folks on his ability. He bats 4th for Toronto & plays a flawless CF. He has speed & power. He plays poorly at Toronto but very good everywhere else. He could be a steal.

    Wells’ hit streak ends: The Sports Xchange reports that Blue Jays CF Vernon Wells entered Friday night’s game hitting just .263 with nine homers and 38 RBIs. However, he came into the game on a nine-game hitting streak in which he batted .385 (15-for-39). The last eight of those games have been on the road where Wells is having a banner campaign. Wells went 0-for-4 Friday, but on the road he’s hitting .333. At home, he’s hitting a pathetic .172.

    The Blue Jays gave Wells a seven-year $126 million contract, but a staggering $98.5 million is backloaded over the final five years.

    AB-365, HR-9, AVG-.263, RBI-38, R-53, SB-13

  492. Frank from Chatham, NJ July 15th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Bob Klapisch’s (from Fox Sports) crystal ball:

    “Sorry to disappoint the Phillies, Rangers and Cardinals, who are breathing heavily at the prospect of landing Halladay. But Jays’ GM J.P. Ricciardi will hold onto his stud right-hander until the offseason, when he can expand the list of suitors and make a better deal.

    Waiting will also take the heat off Ricciardi, who’s been heavily criticized in Toronto for even thinking of surrendering the franchise’s most popular player midway through the summer.

    Make no mistake, though: even if it’s later than sooner, Halladay will be moved.”

  493. Observer283 July 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    Thank you Patrick. Facts. So much less fun than random assertions not grounded in reality, but much more reliable.

  494. E-gawa July 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    Michael,

    I think you might be.. if that’s the case, I’d save it if I were you. It could be a rare collectors item soon.

  495. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    Oh and Josh Johnson is also an FA in 2012 when he’s 28. Basically all 4 guys are free agents fairly soon and they’ll all be under 30. However, it’s not a sure bet that any of them stay healthy and effective.

  496. Evan July 15th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    ““Yanks can just go after Mauer when he’s a FA.”

    MIN is not letting Mauer get away. He and Morneau are the faces of that franchise.”

    Laura – Santana was the face. He isn’t the face anymore. Soon Mauer will get away too. Do you honestly believe the Twins would pay him $20 million a year? And if he continues to bat upwards of .375, win batting titles, and be an All Star catcher, do you think he would command less than say what Teixeira got?

  497. Observer283 July 15th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    Rayvt; Wells’ contract is backloaded. As bad as it looks now, it will lok worse in a couple of years. Not worth it.

  498. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    E-gawa,

    Playin’ hardball huh? Okay, 40 bucks. But that’s my final offer.

  499. Johnny D. July 15th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    Not going to happen. Joba is a lifer.

  500. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    “Not really. Felix is a FA in 2012 when he’s 26. Verlander also hits FA in 2012 but he’ll be 29. Lincecum is an FA in 2014.

    8-10 years? more like 3-5″

    which makes Felix a possibility since soon they will have to think big money w/ him. I’m not saying that we can get him, but if I’m dealing Joba/Jesus that’s what I want, not ageing Doc Halladay, b/c the whole point is in 3-4 yrs. your going to do the same thing over again. When the Red Sox landed Beckett they didn’t have to trade any big asset after that to add to thier rotations success.

  501. eric July 15th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    Also, you guys all know Sabathia has an op-out after the 2011 season… the window for this team as constructed isn’t huge.

  502. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    “Sorry I meant prospect wise.”

    Oh I see, I jumped right into the middle of the conversation and probably missed something somewhere.

    The Yanks don’t have a young guy like Beckett was with postseason exp. but Joba could be that guy in a year or two.

  503. E-gawa July 15th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    Michael,

    I think they sell them for $10 on mlb.com

  504. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    “Personally I like Wells as a CF in Yankee Stadium. I believe his recent injuries last year & year before have soured folks on his ability”

    No dude he sucks seriously he does.

  505. S.A.--Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    Laura July 15th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    “I would give it 3 seconds”

    S.A., you are being too generous. It’s more like 1 second.

    =================

    True :lol:

  506. GoYanksWin27 July 15th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    I would be willing to give up Cano in a trade for him, but unfortunately they are very deep at 2B. Yes, I know Cano is one of the most talented Yankees but I question his mental toughness. He is too soft. His lack of production with RISP is frightening. He’s not a clutch player at all. If he was the difference between having a top 3 in the rotation of Doc, CC and AJ I would be more than willing to have Pena play second.

  507. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    E-gawa,

    Thanks for the tip but I’m not budging on my offer, unless you want my 2005 Carl Pavano jersey thrown in? Then we have a deal!

  508. E-gawa July 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Joba is a “could be” “maybe” “what if”

    Beckett was a “more than likely”

  509. m July 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    pat,

    How about a change of topic?

    Let’s talk about the DH, specifically should mlb make uniform rules for both leagues? If so, should they eliminate the DH, or keep it?

    Personally, I kind of like having different rules. I believe it makes the AL stronger, thus it makes the Yankees stronger because you have much tougher competition.

    If they were to make uniform rules, I say keep the DH. Besides, no way the union allows the position to disappear.

    As the game gets younger, the position will get younger, too. Who are the big DH bats in the league? I seriously can’t name another DH specific player other than Ortiz and Hideki.

    I hope that the Yankees keep the position open next season so that Girardi can rotate players into the position to keep players fresh and on their toes.

    That way we can give Jesus a chance, provided of course, that he’s still with the Yankees. (sorry, pat, had to slide in some Halladay, there).

  510. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Completely agree w/ you Brandon. If I’m trading guys like Joba, Hughes, and/or Montero I want back someone like Lincecum, Hernandez, Verlander, Johnson, Greinke, etc

    Maybe also for young stud position players like Braun, Ramirez, J. Upton, etc

    I don’t want the Yanks to trade Joba/Hughes/Montero unless they are getting back YOUNG allstar type players.

  511. JasonR July 15th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    “Choice 1: You are guaranteed that the Yankees will make the playoffs for the next six years (including this year). Each year, they have a 12.5% chance of winning.

    Choice 2: You are guaranteed the Yankees will make the playoffs this year and next, and then will NOT win the World Series for the next 4 years. Further, you are guaranteed they will go to the World Series. Each year, the odds of winning are 50%.”

    That’s a ridiculous assumption because it suggests trading for Roy Halladay is the last roster move the Yankees will ever make.

  512. Vincent July 15th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    All this talk about prospects and free agent pitchers in 4-5 years makes me wonder if you guys want to win the World Series or just keep planning on possibly doing it.

    Make the deal.

  513. E-gawa July 15th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    Michael,

    Going to have to pass on that deal. I can get firewood at a much cheaper price.

  514. Patrick from CT July 15th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    Let’s put it this way. If the Yankees want Halladay they will get him assuming he will play for the Yankees.
    If the Yankees trade away Joba and some other up and coming players like Ajax and Jesus to get him it goes against everything the Yankees have been saying about getting younger.
    Most Yankee fans are spoiled. I am for sure seeing my team win 6 world series and countless playoff apearances since I was 12 years old.
    I’d rather not see them give up the farm for Halladay and try to get it done by aquiring a lesser pitcher.
    But, I guess we can agree that Joe and Cash have their jobs at stake to win this year. Chances are probably pretty good they make a run for Halladay…

  515. Observer283 July 15th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    Yes, Evan I do.

    Joe Mauer is an absolutely unique situation.

    First, he will be 27 when he hits the FA market. The Twins know they wouldn’t just be paying for what he has done in the past, but also for what he would still be capable of doing in the future.

    Second, he was a legend in Minnesota before he graduated high school. He was a football star in addition to his baseball prowess. Now, he IS Minnesota sports.

    Hometown boy with huge expectations who made good and SURPASSED expectations.

    Third, they are opening a new stadium and teams are loathe to lose star attractions when opening new stadiums.

    I don’t think we have ever seen an analagous situation in sports. As valaubale as Mauer would be to any franchise in baseball, he would be that much more valuable to the Twins.

    Pohlad is a reknowned billionare cheapskate. So it is possible that he won’t resign Joe Mauer.

    But if there was ever a player that a cheapskate owner would resign for fear of fan backlash, its Joe Mauer. This is no where near comprable to the Santana situation.

  516. betsy July 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    GF, Phil came to camp early – he was in great shape. I’m not sure why they sent him to that special gym, but it wasn’t because he wasn’t in good shape coming into the season. Maybe they thought he needed to do more specific type of work…or maybe they thought that he overdid it in camp.

    Maybe I didn’t make myself clear – most RATIONAL fans are trashing Joba (or Phil last year). The problem is, there are a lot of IRRATIONAL fans…..

  517. pat July 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    Thanks Uncle Ellsworth.

    It was sort of a rhetorical question but it’s nice to know I was heard. :smile:

  518. Rayvt July 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    If the Yankees were willing to swallow money, they could save the Bluejays tons if they added BJ Ryan to the mix as well. He has just a matter of hours before he hits them for ½ of his $14M this year & $10M next. He might be a LH specialist potential if he can get his head straight.

    That is pain! Accepting bum contracts! It also relieves the opposing fans to be rid of those contracts to provide hope of being able to bring on helpful but reasonable contracts and talent to take their place. Toronto will have a formidable pitching staff next year when some of their players get healthy. They have a great minor league system as well. They need relief. The Yankees have $$. Halladay, Wells & BJ could be a lot easier to swallow player wise for the Yankees.

  519. Michael July 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    E-gawa,

    Best response of the day! Thanks for the laugh. I’m out.

  520. aronik July 15th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    Halladay and Rios for Joba Romine Betences Brackman Melky/Gardner
    any chance theyd do this

    any way without giving up Jesus Ajax Phuge would be unbelievable

  521. Mike RI July 15th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    Patrick –

    I guess we can agree that Joe and Cash have their jobs at stake to win this year. Chances are probably pretty good they make a run for Halladay…

    Great Post — Cashman knows his butt is on the line . He can’t take the risk of Joba Pettite and Wang pitching with his job on the line.

    Cashman will make this move. Simply because his job is on the line

  522. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    “Chances are probably pretty good they make a run for Halladay”

    Chances are also pretty good they make a run WITHOUT Halladay.

    Also as a Yankee fan why should I care that Cashman’s job is on the line? AS A FAN I don’t want him to mortgage the future for Halladay. Simply not worth it.

  523. m July 15th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    See, this is where you guys lose me. Nothing is getting Lincecum right now. No Joba, no Hughes, Montero, Hideki (lol), our good position players all make too much.

    Stop saying Lincecum.

    The others I give you, but not Lincecum.

  524. S.A.--Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    So, anyone see any good movies lately?

  525. Evan July 15th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    No chance Minnesota and their owner pays a player $160 million over 8 years. It would cripple the franchise.

    I’m sorry – but player/team loyalty does not exist anymore.

    Mauer will not be a Twin for his career unless he doesn’t care about making more money. And if that is the case – find me an athlete that passed on that kind of deal.

  526. GoYanksWin27 July 15th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    Just going back to me saying I’d give up Cano and questioning his mental toughness….

    Cano with bases empty= .353 avg, 8 Hr’s, .947 OPS
    Cano with men on base= .259 avg, 5 HR’s, .703 OPS

  527. gayle July 15th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    Also to change things up a bit the other day we were talking about how tough a town for Red Sox Boston is vs new York. As an example yesterday WBCN the longest running rock station in Boston announced they were shutting down after 41 years. What is going in its place? A sports talk station that makes 3 in the Boston market. Here in New York we can barely sustain 2 I cannot imagine there being a 3rd one.

  528. m July 15th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    Observer,

    Didn’t Pohlad pass away? If he did, then there’s a good chance they do sign mauer to headline the team in their new stadium.

  529. Rayvt July 15th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    Brandon & Observer

    The Blue Jays gave Wells a seven-year $126 million contract, but a staggering $98.5 million is backloaded over the final five years.

    AB-365, HR-9, AVG-.263, RBI-38, R-53, SB-13

    On the road Well’s is hitting .333 but at home in Toronto, he’s hitting a pathetic .172.

    He isn’t pathetic. $20M a season for 5 years is real pain. But I’d rather pay a starting CF $20/season than give up prospects that could start for me later if I don’t have too if it ensured that the Yanks could get Halladay.

  530. Stultus Magnus July 15th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    Anybody seen Chapman?

    Or is he off backpacking around Europe and staying in hostels?

  531. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    “Completely agree w/ you Brandon. If I’m trading guys like Joba, Hughes, and/or Montero I want back someone like Lincecum, Hernandez, Verlander, Johnson, Greinke, etc

    Maybe also for young stud position players like Braun, Ramirez, J. Upton, etc

    I don’t want the Yanks to trade Joba/Hughes/Montero unless they are getting back YOUNG allstar type players.”

    I mean SRSLY doesn’t it make sense ? Why trade for someone reaching his ends to continue the same dumb revolving cycle OVER and OVER and OVER again. To the posters talking about Josh Beckett’s performance in the playoffs the Red Sox targeted him 2 yrs. before that. They wanted a young top tier controlled gun. B/c they figured out the FA pattern, while the Yankees were spending 80 – 120 million dollars to FA guns like Javier Vasquez and Randy Johnson, they were outsmarted by thier competition. We paid CC and AJ to be the guys to lead us to the promise land, THAT’S A FACT.

    If I’m dealing potential studs in Joba/Jackson/Montero I’m not doing that for someone who’s game is at it’s crossroads. I don’t want a vet, I WANT A YOUNG STUD, if I’m getting a mercenary I want a young cost controlled soon to hit his primes type. A King Felix, a Josh Johnson, a Tim Lincecum… A YOUNG STUD.

  532. Doreen July 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    If Cashman’s job is on the line, it’ll be on the line whether he gets Halladay or not and they don’t get to the playoffs or get past the first round. A good GM makes the best moves for the best interest of the club, not for himself. (And I understand I’m opening myself up to all those who think Cashman is totally clueless. C’est la vie.) I’m not going to justify myself.

  533. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    Rayvt HE’S PATHETIC !! GET OVER IT !

  534. Stultus Magnus July 15th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    Yes, Hideki for Lincecum.

    The Yanks were foolish for not making that faux-trade.

    That was the one of the funnier posts yesterday.

  535. jennifer July 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Um where is Pete’s chat?

  536. GreenBeret7 July 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Rayvt
    July 15th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
    GB

    Nobody’s trading for Brad Suttle, who just had a 2nd shoulder operation, this one for a torn Labrum or Betances, who quite likely will need TJ surgery within a year, in any deal for Halladay or anybody else except Noah Lowery.
    —————————
    Sorry I forgot Suttle got injured again! TY for reminding me. I also did not hear Betances was injured or looking at a TJ surgery.

    But I did know that Josh Johnson had TJ surgery in 2007 and it didn’t seem to hurt him too much. What I was trying to say was with a staff of 2 more aces (fill in the blank – Halladay, J Johnson, etc) the Yankees could well afford to give up very high end Pitchers including Joba for such a deal and still have Hughes/Pettite/Wang as a #5 starter.

    ————————————————————

    Not a problem. Most people have forgotten about suttle because he hasn’t played. betances was on the DL twice last year and twice this year with elblow issues. Betances ‘ elbow should be as good as new, but, Suttle is an unknown, though, he should be ok. I just don’t think Toronto is in position to wait that long to see if they become productive. It would be 3-4 years before they would be helping the big team.

  537. Uncle Ellsworth July 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    S.A.–Relax, Relate, Release
    July 15th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
    So, anyone see any good movies lately?

    Sister and Neices went to Harry Potter – dressed up – neice made newspaper.

    heard Hangover is awesome

  538. m July 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Doreen,

    How can trading for Halladay be a bad move?

  539. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    “If Cashman’s job is on the line, it’ll be on the line whether he gets Halladay or not and they don’t get to the playoffs or get past the first round.”

    Oh please he hears this every yr. you think it has any effect to him, if they don’t get Doc this yr. they’ll land him 12 mths. from now, in the meantime they’ll sign Darvish or Chapman and the fans can whine some more.

  540. Jerkface July 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Um where is Pete’s chat?

    In an alternate reality where today is thursday

  541. Patrick the Prospect Hugger July 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Good post Brandon, I agree.

  542. jennifer July 15th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    Oh darn the chat is tomorrow. :-( Oh well.

  543. Stultus Magnus July 15th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    Hangover is awesome

  544. Stultus Magnus July 15th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    Year One was crap

  545. Bronx Jeers July 15th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    Why make that trade for Beckett all those years ago?

    Just wait until Pavano becomea a Free Agent and attack…attack..attack!!

    That’s how you get your man.

  546. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    “How can trading for Halladay be a bad move?”

    Because he doesn’t have his best yrs. ahead of him and it just continues the same cycle. It just doesn’t make sense ? Why trade for someone reaching his ends to continue the same dumb revolving cycle OVER and OVER and OVER again. To the posters talking about Josh Beckett’s performance in the playoffs the Red Sox targeted him 2 yrs. before that. They wanted a young top tier controlled gun. B/c they figured out the FA pattern, while the Yankees were spending 80 – 120 million dollars to FA guns like Javier Vasquez and Randy Johnson, they were outsmarted by thier competition. We paid CC and AJ to be the guys to lead us to the promise land, THAT’S A FACT.

    If I’m dealing potential studs in Joba/Jackson/Montero I’m not doing that for someone who’s game is at it’s crossroads. I don’t want a vet, I WANT A YOUNG STUD, if I’m getting a mercenary I want a young cost controlled soon to hit his primes type. A King Felix, a Josh Johnson, a Tim Lincecum… A YOUNG STUD.

  547. Mr. Obvious July 15th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    I think the twinkies are getting in the way of you thinking straight Abe.

  548. m July 15th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    lol, Jennifer.

    You know what we miss? It’s news from the club. Just everyday dreck, updates, clubhouse silliness.

    Sad and pathetic, but that’s what it is.

  549. Mark in Tampa July 15th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    “Yes, Hideki for Lincecum.

    The Yanks were foolish for not making that faux-trade.

    That was the one of the funnier posts yesterday.”

    Whoever posted that yesterday got the SF pitchers mixed up. SF wanted Matsui for Noah Lowry, the Yankees wanted Cain; but SF was not interested in that, let alone Lincecum.

  550. pat July 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    gayle

    The only one I’ve ever heard in Boston is WEEI. It has it’s share of angst but from what I’ve heard, the hosts throw more bouquets at players than rocks.

  551. Bill Porter July 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    Pete, despite your disclaimer what is the over under on the time this pops up on “MLB Trade Rumors”?

    BTW I think you’re right, the Yanks should try to make a deal along the lines you’ve outlined. (I know, that and 65 cents …)

    I’m not sure that Toronto will view Joba as the jaw dropping focal point of a deal they need to get for the very reasons you discuss. I think they might insist on Phil’s inclusion rather than Joba’s and tell the Yanks to take a walk if they don’t get it. At the very least I would imagine that if it’s Joba and not Hughes they might insist that the Yanks have to take Wells; at least Toronto could justify that financially.

  552. m July 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    Brandon,

    You’re so young and idealistic. You live in a fantasy world of “what ifs?”

    :)

  553. YankeeRay July 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    Craigster
    July 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
    @ Tom B

    Even Peter, whose defense of Posada knows no bounds, admits that it has become clear there is something to Posada not catching Sabathia.

    Posada, by the way, didn’t catch on Friday… So there was only one reason left for him not to catch again two days later… And it wasn’t rest.

    ——

    Jorge sat because we had lost 2 straight and Girardi was concerned that the Angels were going to steal our gloves as well as 2nd base.

  554. Wangawa July 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    Don’t forget about Dan Haren. You’d have him through 2013 and he’s 28 years old.

  555. Doreen July 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    Brandon -

    For the record, I don’t want to trade for Halladay.

    m -

    My point was more that if Cashman’s job is on the line, it’s on the line regardless if they don’t make the playoffs or, perhaps even if they simply don’t make it past the first round. And also that I think that Cashman will make a move that he feels is best for the team. Maybe that means getting Halladay, maybe it means keeping the “kids.”

    Getting Halladay is a questionable move if they do it without an extension and if he really is already on the decline due to injury.

    Frankly, I’m just really tired of the whole topic, there’s good arguments on either side, no one knows what Cashman is going to do and I’m no expert. :)

  556. vb03 July 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    Vincent July 15th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    All this talk about prospects and free agent pitchers in 4-5 years makes me wonder if you guys want to win the World Series or just keep planning on possibly doing it.

    Make the deal.

    ———————–

    QFT. When do you guys plan to win the WS, when Jeter-A-Rod-Mo-Posada are 44 years old?

  557. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    I wish the trade deadline would just get here already…or at least a trade would go ahead and happen. the stress of the whole will we, wont we for Halladay is maddening…and if we dont what will we do?! too much thinking!

  558. Erica - always OPPC July 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    We need a new topic and a new discussion thread…

  559. The Curious Case of Joba Chamberlain July 15th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    Halladay hates the new Yankee Stadium said so in an interview.

  560. no.27 July 15th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    I think the Yankees need for another starter is a bit exaggerated on this site. The Yankees have the 2nd best record in the AL. If they didn’t choke away the games they did to the Red Sox, they could be tied for the best record in the league. This is with A-Rod, Posada, Wang, and Nady being out for long stretches of the first half.

    The Yankees have gone 38-22 since A-Rod has been back in the lineup. The team has really started to get going and I don’t see why they can’t make a strong playoff run w/o making any big moves.

  561. PacMan21 July 15th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    Cano, Cabrera, Joba

    this is a no brainer

    you gotta give up stuff to get good stuff

  562. melky gardner July 15th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    If we go down this path in a couple of years we’ll look like the yankees of 2004. And we all know how that turned out.
    Getting Halladay will not innoculate us from losing in the playoffs. As Greg pointed out, CC has terrible postseason numbers. AJ – who knows? The win now approach would be great if it ever actually got us to win, instead of just wasting money and dpeleting the farm system.

  563. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    m, here’s something to fancy on.

    Yankees aim for Doc, land him, ok CC, AJ, Doc…whatever you lose Hughes or Joba and Jesus.

    The Red Sox could very well take the same package and land King Felix in Boston or Josh Johnson in Boston.

    They can match JJ or King Felix, Beckett, Lester…whatever

    In the end Boston gets the better deal. That’s what I could forsee happen. Yankees FO panics and get someone they have to longterm no matter what while Boston respond w/ landing a younger stud top tier SP to strengthen thier rotation. Doc hasn’t experienced NYC..many people crack when they put the pinstripes. MANY.

  564. Doreen July 15th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    Also Brandon, I don’t think Cashman makes moves with his job first in mind. I think I said that, but it may not have been clear.

  565. YankeeRay July 15th, 2009 at 1:37 pm

    Erica – always OPPC
    July 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
    We need a new topic and a new discussion thread…

    —–

    Unfortunately not until Halladay gets traded or August 1st, whichever comes first.

  566. Erica - always OPPC July 15th, 2009 at 1:37 pm

    I am kind of disgusted that post allstar break the MLB Extra Innings package on cablevision didn’t go down more.

    It went from $199 to $139. I told myself that if was $100 or less I would buy it. Poor me :-(

  567. Stultus Magnus July 15th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Erica – always OPPC
    July 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    We need a new topic and a new discussion thread…

    ============

    Don’t know if a new thread would do anything.

    We need Friday to get here quickly.

  568. m July 15th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Doreen,

    I think that trading for Roy Halladay would improve any club greatly (except Toronto of course!) and that any gm, including our own inimitable C-money would be remiss in not exploring the possibilty of acquiring said player.

  569. Erica - always OPPC July 15th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    YankeeRay
    July 15th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
    Erica – always OPPC
    July 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
    We need a new topic and a new discussion thread…

    —–

    Unfortunately not until Halladay gets traded or August 1st, whichever comes first.

    *****
    In the words of Mr. Costanza (and SA)… SERENETY NOW!!!!

  570. Rayvt July 15th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    Brandon

    I don’t mean to go on and on, but I’ve seen Wells play this year and he isn’t crap. Now if you mean he is crap as a hitter for $20M then I agree. But he is still recovering from some major issues. Personally I think he could solidify the Yankee outfield this year and a few more. He hasn’t played up to his standards for a while due to injuries. (See below)

    At the end of the 2006 season, Vernon Wells was awarded his 3rd straight Gold Glove Award for his outfield defense,
    Speculations to the reason for his slump could be the pressure of his new contract, lack of protection in the lineup due to other slumping sluggers, a shoulder injury that he suffered early in the season, lack of preparation for the season or the fact he never got started like he did in 2006, the reason of which many people believe was the at bats he had in the World Baseball Classic. In 2007 he had the lowest range factor of all major league center fielders, 2.29.

    On May 8, 2008 Wells suffered a broken left wrist while making a diving catch. He returned on June 7, but later strained his left hamstring on July 9 and missed over a month of the season. Wells finished the year hitting .300 with 20 home runs and 78 RBIs.

    During spring training in 2009, Wells suffered another injury. A strained left hamstring, which kept him out for a few weeks. At the beginning of the season Wells batted fourth in the lineup and is playing everyday center field.

  571. Big AL July 15th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    Pete, I agree totally with your opinion as to what the Yankees need to give up in order to get Halliday. I’d prefer to keep Montero and give up Posada, and bring back Cervelli as our catcher. Joba thinks he’s it, and will not take direction from anyone, let him go, while he still has some trade value!

  572. S.A.--Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    Uncle Ellsworth July 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    S.A.–Relax, Relate, Release
    July 15th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
    So, anyone see any good movies lately?

    Sister and Neices went to Harry Potter – dressed up – neice made newspaper.

    heard Hangover is awesome

    ==========================

    They dressed up? What fun!

  573. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 15th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    You are CRAZY if you rate Phil Hughes as a higher prospect than Halladay based on half a season of work. That’s ridiculous, at least IMO.

  574. disco stu July 15th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    “Halladay hates the new Yankee Stadium said so in an interview.”

    I wonder how much he would hate YS if he came to the Yankees and pitched with all the run support we would give him every time he takes the mound.

  575. Erica - always OPPC July 15th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    Uncle E-

    The Hangover was HILARIOUS.

  576. m July 15th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    Brandon,

    Good points.

    But if Boston’s going to land anyone, Johnson, Hernandez or those bats that they desperately need more than an ace. It’s going to cost them, too. Nothing for free, even though it appears that way for Boston.

    And give me a break. You don’t think Hernandez or Johnson won’t crack in NY? Halladay’s been pitching in the AL East for 9 years. TWO 20-WIN SEASONS in the AL East with a pathetic offense. He’s 10-3 with a 2.85 ERA right now. Right now.

    We can play what if? all day, but Halladay’s a proven winner over time. Dude is consistent. You know what you’re going to get.

  577. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 15th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    Halladay should be switched w/Joba.

    Halladay right now is better than both of course.

  578. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 15th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    Halladay may hate the stadium, but he said he’d okay a deal to the Yanks. And he loves to win.

    He’ll learn to love it.

  579. m July 15th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Sorry, too many negatives there.

    If you think Halladay’s going to crack in NY, you can say the same thing for Fernandez (who chose to follow Freddie Garcia) and Josh Johnson.

    You just don’t know, so you can’t say.

  580. S.A.--Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    Erica – always OPPC July 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    We need a new topic and a new discussion thread…

    ========================================

    How about the weather?
    Sure is purty outside!

  581. pat July 15th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    People sometimes say Pujols doesn’t get enough attention for how good he is because he plays in a small market.

    The past few days was all Pujols, all the time.

    Wonder if he liked it or was ready for all the cameras and media to leave town?

  582. Craigster July 15th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    YankeeRay @ July 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
    “Jorge sat because we had lost 2 straight and Girardi was concerned that the Angels were going to steal our gloves as well as 2nd base.”

    That is PART of the issue, no question… And that’s also PART of the reason it is ridiculous for ANYBODY to say that Posada remains “one of the game’s top catchers.”

    He remains one of the game’s top HITTING catchers… Defensively, however, he’s a nightmare.

  583. Erica - always OPPC July 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    S.A.-

    What if we start a new rumor?? At least then it could be a different topic

  584. Stultus Magnus July 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    It went from $199 to $139. I told myself that if was $100 or less I would buy it. Poor me :-(

    ================

    I called about that too. I think it’s ridiculous. Should be pro-rated or at least 20 bucks cheaper.

  585. Trevor July 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    If they get another starter it will be a back end of rotation. No need to go out and get an ace when you have 1 arguably 2, already.
    Paid CC and AJ a boatload of money. Now Halladay + Prospects? Nah I don’t see that happening. Halladay will either stay in Toronto or go to Philly.

  586. hornblower July 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    Pete,
    I regard you as a serious reporter but this is sheer nonsense for a day when there is nothing to write about.
    If you tell me that the Yankees are going out of business in the next few years then this makes sense. Absent that it is plain silly.

  587. Bill July 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    Since the Halliday trade has been discussed non-stop, here’s a change of pace. Anybody think of any trades that you just can’t figure out (besides Buhner for Phelps!). How about the Tigers getting Edwin Jackson from TB for Matt Joyce, yeah that Matt Joyce! Jackson tied for TB’s team lead in wins last year with 14. He is an AllStar with Detroit, throws 97 MPH. Why in the world did TB trade him for another OF, like they don’t have enough OFs.

  588. S.A.--Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    I feel like the little kid in the backseat of the car asking mom and dad constantly “Are we there yet?”

    Is it Friday yet? :)

  589. Stultus Magnus July 15th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    Erica – always OPPC
    July 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    S.A.-

    What if we start a new rumor?? At least then it could be a different topic

    ===============

    Pete’s rules forbid that.

    But I’m game too.

  590. Doreen July 15th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    I think he should explore it too. And if he makes the deal, I will want it to work out for the Yankees, just as he if doesn’t I’ll hope it works out for the Yankees. But I think a deal for a lesser pitcher to shore up the rotation might do the job.

    But I don’t know.

    There’s are no guarantees either way.

  591. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 15th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    Craigster-Actually, defensively he is not a nightmare, he is just perhaps a hair below average. Look up the stats and the percentage of base stealers he catches.

    Because of his bat I’ll deal w/slightly below average defense; that bat still puts him in the top five catchers in baseball.

  592. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 15th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    Okay, I’ll repost my old post with the typo fixed:

    You are CRAZY if you rate Phil Hughes as a higher prospect than Joba based on half a season of work. That’s ridiculous, at least IMO

  593. sab July 15th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    “lincecum, josh johnson,felix hernandez and justin verlander will be available to the yankees in about 8 – 10 years (give or take)”

    Not really. Felix is a FA in 2012 when he’s 26. Verlander also hits FA in 2012 but he’ll be 29. Lincecum is an FA in 2014.

    8-10 years? more like 3-5
    =======================================================

    i was factoring in the (good) chance that the teams those pitchers are on would be smart enough to at least sign them to a 5 year contract soon – therefore brining the time they become FA’s to 8 – 10 years – bringing the age they will be available to about 30-32 (same as halladay)..

  594. NYY626 July 15th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    Did anyone see Bruno? I saw it yesterday. It was, ummm, how do I put this? A lot to handle? I saw 5 grown men walk out….

  595. m July 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Doreen,

    If a gm didn’t have reservations they wouldn’t be doing their job.

    But if they didn’t make any moves because they couldn’t get past those reservations, they wouldn’t have a job at all.

  596. Mark in Tampa July 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Stultus, Erica,

    Extra Innings does a free preview during the first week after the ASB, as well as first week of the season and some of September. At least you can see some extra games that way.

  597. no.27 July 15th, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    Also, I’m surprised how many people would rather trade Joba than Hughes. Despite his struggles this season (his 1st full year as a starter), it’s clear he’s been more impressive than Hughes in the majors. The fact that Joba has been in a rut and hasn’t learned how to go deeper into games over his TWENTY NINE CAREER STARTS isn’t a huge surprise.

    He’s still very young, and has a 3.62 ERA as a starter. In fact, I’d say that the development of his curveball and that he’s been healthy make his first half a successful one.

    Cut the guy some slack.

  598. Largo July 15th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    The answer to all this is simple.

    The Yankees only make major moves when Pete is either asleep in Vegas, at a movie, or otherwise out of communication range.

    So if you want the Yankees to make a Halladay trade, send Pete a plane ticket to Tahiti or someplace without internet access. He won’t even be off the plane before Halladay is a Yankee.

    If you are a “prospect hugger” and want to keep everyone, make sure that Pete keeps the IPhone handy.

  599. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 15th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    no.27-That’s what I said!

  600. S.A.--Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    S.A.-

    What if we start a new rumor?? At least then it could be a different topic

    ======================================

    That could be fun.

    Did you hear that Hank Steinbrenner was abducted by aliens. That’s why we haven’t heard from the chatty one in so long.
    ;)

  601. sab July 15th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    Since the Halliday trade has been discussed non-stop, here’s a change of pace. Anybody think of any trades that you just can’t figure out (besides Buhner for Phelps!). How about the Tigers getting Edwin Jackson from TB for Matt Joyce, yeah that Matt Joyce! Jackson tied for TB’s team lead in wins last year with 14. He is an AllStar with Detroit, throws 97 MPH. Why in the world did TB trade him for another OF, like they don’t have enough OFs.

    ========================================================

    thats their comeuppance for getting kasmir for basically nothing and garza and bartlett for even less – things tend to even out when it comes to getting lucky on trades…unless you’re the redsox – then everything turns to gold whenever you make a trade (don’t give me the gagne trade they didn’t give up anyone for him)

  602. Stultus Magnus July 15th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    S.A.–Relax, Relate, Release July 15th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    S.A.-

    What if we start a new rumor?? At least then it could be a different topic

    ======================================

    Cano has a total of 8 toes…

  603. Doreen July 15th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    m -

    I don’t think we’re disageeing here. A GM has to look into anything that will improve his team or may improve his team and make a decision based on all the information he has. If a move isn’t made, it doesn’t mean it wasn’t explored or that a package wasn’t offered. And sometimes at the end of the day, looking at all the permuations of a deal, A GM could determine it’s not the best move at the time.

  604. Jerkface July 15th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    unless you’re the redsox – then everything turns to gold whenever you make a trade (don’t give me the gagne trade they didn’t give up anyone for him)

    Dude ! Engel Beltre! Future hall of famer

  605. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    “And give me a break. You don’t think Hernandez or Johnson won’t crack in NY? Halladay’s been pitching in the AL East for 9 years. TWO 20-WIN SEASONS in the AL East with a pathetic offense. He’s 10-3 with a 2.85 ERA right now. Right now”

    Yet the difference is THEY ARE COST CONTROLLED, AND CAN BE TRADED ! and wouldn’t cost 100 and something million dollars yr. after to keep. It’s ridiculous when you can get Doc for just mercenary money next yr. to do this.

    AND FOR THE VERNON WELLS SUCKS !!! AND SO DOES THAT CONTRACT !!!

  606. Brandon... I'M AWESOME ! July 15th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    AND FOR THE RECORD VERNON WELLS SUCKS !!! AND SO DOES THAT CONTRACT !!!

  607. Vince July 15th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    If in Toronto’s case this is about money then they’re glowing over the fact that they lose payroll and get 4-5 players under cost control for the foreseeable future.

  608. pat July 15th, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    “Cano has a total of 8 toes…”

    and 6 are on 1 foot.

  609. miggs July 15th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    Well, this post did it for me.

    I’m officially boycotting this blog until either Halladay is traded or the deadline passes.

    Pete all I can say is thank god you aren’t the GM. Can we somehow include Cano in the package also? I don’t think you’re giving up enough with Joba,montero, Jackson, and “anyone else” they want.

    The Halladay garbage is being pushed by certain regulars that are of the opinion the Yankees need every all star that becomes available. Its sickening.

    I didn’t even waste my time reading through all the posts but I saw one logical one before I stopped reading, posted by CB around 10:45.

    At least everyone hasn’t done mad.

    See you on August 1st!

  610. Jon in CT July 15th, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    I love your idea — Jays will probably trade him out of div/league, though

  611. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 15th, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    miggs-You mean, at least one person agrees with you.

    Doesn’t mean we’re mad, it means we look at this whole thing differently than you do.

  612. Erica - always OPPC July 15th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    pat
    July 15th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
    “Cano has a total of 8 toes…”

    and 6 are on 1 foot.

    ****
    ROTF.. you guys are too much. Good work! :lol:

  613. sab July 15th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    CC is horrible in the postseason… (except against the yankees)..

    if that is true then even more reason to go out and get halladay…

    getting halladay also reduces their need to get more bullpen arms – as he , cc and aj would give you at least 7 innings more times then not – therefore the yankees could save their bullpen arms for whomever the 4th and 5th pitchers are..

  614. jennifer July 15th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Vernon Wells of
    7 years/$126M (2008-14)

    * 7 years/$126M (2008-14)
    o signed extension with Toronto 12/06
    o $25.5M signing bonus (paid in 3 $8.5M installments, March 1 2008-10)
    o 08:$0.5M, 09:$1.5M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$23M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$21M
    o full no-trade clause
    o Wells may opt out of contract after 2011
    o award bonuses: $0.25M for MVP, $0.2M for World Series MVP, $0.15M for LCS MVP, $0.1M for receiving most All-Star votes in league
    o Wells to donate $143,000 annually to Blue Jays charity

    http://www.baseball-reference......ve01.shtml

    Not worth it.

  615. Stultus Magnus July 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    I went back and read CB’s post, it’s just a different opinion than most people here.

    I agree with it, the Yanks do need a starter, but they don’t need top shelf to be good. If CC and AJ keep pitching the way they’ve been pitching AND Joba/Pettitte/somebody else picks it up on the back end, then the Yanks should be fine.

    The Yanks spent 450+ million in the offseason. They can afford more, but they can also get a serviceable starter to pick up the slack and add innings for a lot less than Halladay.

    In any case, I’m glad there’s a new thread.

    Funny about the 6 toes on one foot, Pat…

  616. Craigster July 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    “Craigster-Actually, defensively he is not a nightmare, he is just perhaps a hair below average. Look up the stats and the percentage of base stealers he catches.”

    Part of the reason for that is that EVERYBODY attempts to steal on the guy.

    Posada has allowed 47 stolen bases this season in 50 games! That’s 39th out of 40 guys who have played catcher in the A.L. this season.

    Most of the people anywhere REMOTELY close to that number have played in about 20 more games.

    His fielding percentage is near the bottom of the league.

    He doesn’t even ATTEMPT to block balls in the dirt… Fastballs (especially in the 90′s) HAVE to picked… But he’s attempting to pick breaking balls in the dirt, too…

    He is WAY too restless behind the plate, and costs his pitchers strikes from time to time, as a result.

    And he has weak hands that lead to his glove being carried away from the zone with the momentum of the pitch, which can also cost a pitcher strikes.

    Other than that, he’s fine.

  617. sab July 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    Dude ! Engel Beltre! Future hall of famer
    ====================================================

    and he’s had how many major league at bats? he’s also batting .219 this year in the minors and had a 105/15 strikeout to walk ratio last year…he has just as good a chance of being in the HOF as montero has…the only thing he has going for him at this point is his age…

  618. John Locke July 15th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    Jennifer- How do you find the salary remaining for players on baseball reference.. Cant seem to find it and it’s driving me CRAZY!!

    Thanks

  619. Rayvt July 15th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Jennifer

    No one is arguing that his contract is bad. But how much money do the Yankees spend to develop a star player thru the system? Do you value them? If you do, perhaps you’d take a bad contract to get a good player with a high ceiling if he is healthy again and keep some of the prospects to get Halladay too.

  620. Jerkface July 15th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Dude ! Engel Beltre! Future hall of famer
    ====================================================

    and he’s had how many major league at bats? he’s also batting .219 this year in the minors and had a 105/15 strikeout to walk ratio last year…he has just as good a chance of being in the HOF as montero has…the only thing he has going for him at this point is his age…

    Look all I am saying is that if Boston is trading a guy like Engel Beltre in a package with a future horse stud Kason Gabbard, whom Peter Gammons himself compared to a young(er) Brandon Webb, then you know they are serious.

    Who could the yankees have packaged that could have rivaled that? Ian Kennedy and Melky cabrera? yea right!!!!

    Try Ian Smelledy and Smellky Castinkypants (loved the smell burn the first time so I had to use it again!!)

  621. Rayvt July 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    Wells is a 3 time Gold Glove CF who has been hurt for last 2 years. He has 13 SB this year, which tells me his speed is back. He is worth it to save prospects and I bet he’d start now for the Yanks if he were in pinstripes! LOL!

  622. sab July 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    Look all I am saying is that if Boston is trading a guy like Engel Beltre in a package with a future horse stud Kason Gabbard, whom Peter Gammons himself compared to a young(er) Brandon Webb, then you know they are serious.

    Who could the yankees have packaged that could have rivaled that? Ian Kennedy and Melky cabrera? yea right!!!!

    Try Ian Smelledy and Smellky Castinkypants (loved the smell burn the first time so I had to use it again!!)

    =========================================================

    well if peter gammons said it then i’ll shut up…

    wouldn’t it be great if whenever gammons starts waxing poetic about how great the redsox are one of those smiley face emoticons that is rolling his eyes comes up on the screen…

  623. Jerkface July 15th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    Even when Wells wasn’t a huge disaster he wasn’t worth 20 million. I’d only take Wells contract if I could give up lesser prospects.

    Z-mac, Romine, Melky, and some dope for Wells and Halladay and we’ll eat all of Wells contract. Boom!

    Then platoon Wells and Gardner in CF

  624. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    Why do so many think Josh Johnson is going to be traded? On what planet does that make sense to the Marlins? The guy is extremely young and pitching very well and his $1.4MM contract is not exactly huge for the production…plus he’s not even arbitration eligible until like 2012…why would the Marlins want to give that up? Just because the Yankees or Sox have some half way decent prospects making $300M less? Just drop the Josh Johnson nonsense already

  625. Bret the Hitman July 15th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    If the Marlins plan to trade Josh Johnson than all bets are off. I’d much rather bring in 25 year old Johnson than 32 year old Halladay. After all, Hanley Ramirez was traded for Beckett when Beckett was still in his mid twenties. If the Marlins would be interested in our best hitting prospect (Montero), I’d take a young arm back in the deal. I still wouldn’t include Hughes or Joba if I’m trading Montero. The Sox traded Anibel Sanchez with Hanley and Sanchez was much further down their depth chart than Joba or Phil are right now for the Yankees. I’d do Montero + McAllister/Betances + Melancon for Josh Johnson. The Sox can’t beat that package because they don’t have a prospect even near the level or value of Montero.

  626. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    “Look all I am saying is that if Boston is trading a guy like Engel Beltre in a package with a future horse stud Kason Gabbard, whom Peter Gammons himself compared to a young(er) Brandon Webb, then you know they are serious. ”

    Or they just know more about their team the Peter and realize these guys aren’t all that…

    Erik Kesilias (sp) asked Gammons who he thought the best pitcher in the AL was and Eric said his response was that he wasn’t sure it was Halladay and that Lester has a real argument to be #1, so take anything Gammons says about the Red Sox with a shaker full of salt…

  627. Doink Da Clown July 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    You people are CRAZY to even think the Marlins would even entertain a thought of trading Josh Johnson..

    1) They are still alive in the NL East Race + the NL Wild Card
    2) He makes nothing and is under their control for at least another 2-3 years.

    Why don’t we try and get Matt Cain as well?? How about Clayton Kershaw. While we’re at it, maybe Atlanta will want to trade Jurrjens. And just for good measure, we should try and get Lannan from the Nationals. Absurd? YES! All these post’s about Josh..

    And we wonder why the baseball world laughs at us Yankees fans.

  628. vb03 July 15th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    Gammons is a Red Sox hack, no one can take what he says seriously.

  629. sab July 15th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    i’m all halladay’d out as well..so heres my attempt at changing the thread with the lack of a new one..

    wouldn’t it be more entertaining if at the all star game they would have a home run derby with some retired players instead of the usual cast of nowaday stars?

    i would love to see reggie jackson, mike schmidt, mike piazza, barry bonds, etc instead of brandon inge, joe mauer, and the rest of the boring hitters they usually drag out there..

    also i know that the all star break in july is more so teams and players get a nice 4 day rest in the middle of a 162 game – 6 month marathon but wouldn’t it be better to have it after the WS is over – just so that you don’t risk injury to jeter (or anyone else for that matter except any redsox players or chone figgins)which would kill any team not to have for a month or 2 during the stretch run…

  630. Jerkface July 15th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    Erik Kesilias (sp) asked Gammons who he thought the best pitcher in the AL was and Eric said his response was that he wasn’t sure it was Halladay and that Lester has a real argument to be #1, so take anything Gammons says about the Red Sox with a shaker full of salt…

    Its really amazing what the Red Sox have done. I can’t believe how much talent they produce. Lester could be the #1 pitcher in the AL and he isn’t even the #1 best pitcher on his own team.

    Look who the Sox have produced that are pitching well *right now*:

    Lester
    Beckett
    Smoltz
    Wakefield
    Penny

    and
    Masterson was so awesome but they knew that the bullpen was the key to winning the division so they slide an ace right in there!

    And how did their international scouts find Saito and we couldn’t?!?!? And their catcher of the future is already up handling the most dangerous pitch to catch in baseball the knuckler!! Jesus can’t even catch a AA fastball.

    If the yankees could just find a way to get their guys to stop choking and produce……

  631. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    if you here Gammons say “Red Sox” tune out immediately because it’s going to be a bunch of crap

  632. Fan Interference-Reality Check July 15th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    I would try and get Washburn if Seattle is dealing. He could be the number four. Cash can kick the tires on Lee, but is he really worth giving up that much? No. For Halladay, you can either give up your best pitching or Hitting prospect, but not both. Plus you’re taking salary. Somehow I see Toronto only dealing with the Yanks if they take Wells, and that’s not happening.

  633. Erica - always OPPC July 15th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    New Thread!!!
    New Thread!!!

  634. Doink Da Clown July 15th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Its really amazing what the Red Sox have done. I can’t believe how much talent they produce. Lester could be the #1 pitcher in the AL and he isn’t even the #1 best pitcher on his own team.

    Look who the Sox have produced that are pitching well *right now*:

    Lester
    Beckett
    Smoltz
    Wakefield
    Penny

    _______

    Produced?? Jerkface- Go do some research please and stop making yourself look foolish here.

  635. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    I agree the HR derby needs tweaking…they should have an ump calling strikes for outs…those guys take way to many pitches and the thing lasts like 4 hours. At least in the initial rounds only give the players 10 pitches, not 10 outs…

    No chance in moving the All-Star game after the season. It would be like the pro-bowl where most guys on playoff rosters would just skip it. I like the game itself. Compared to any sport out there, the baseball all star game is by far the best…

  636. Fan Interference-Reality Check July 15th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    Allow me to chime in on the Gammons issue:

    Peter Gammons, ESPN, the Boston Red Sox, and the Red Sox Nation are a bunch of CRAP.

  637. Hokiehill July 15th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    Doink Da Clown

    I think/hope he was being sarcastic

  638. Jerkface July 15th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    Just trying to have some fun in the midst of this Doc Halladay junk.

    Nothing more fun than hyping up red sox nation irrationally

  639. Chris July 15th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    A Rod

    More hype than substance as proven in the Angels game;
    Bottom of 9th and the Yankees needed at least a hit or a homer and he did not come through, AGAIN

  640. Tank July 15th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    MLBTR has the Cards a serious contender. The thought of Carpenter-Wainwright-Halladay is FRIGHTENING!

  641. Doink Da Clown July 15th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    My apology! Thought it was a Red Sawk lurker. I’m so tired about hearing about that “great” team up North, I get a little crazy sometimes.

    As Benningo would say… “COME ON…COME ON”

    BRO

  642. UPSTATE KING July 15th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    It seems that everyone has written off WANG!
    I am a strong believer that he will return to old form this season.

    CC, Halladay, AJ, Old Wang,and anyone off the street would be a great way to go through life.

    Yankees should make this trade happen at just about any cost.(Not Hughes)

  643. sab July 15th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    heres another tangent we can go on…

    when the MLB network first came on the air – i was so psyched that i dropped dish network (they weren’t carrying the MLB netwrok or the extra innings package)and got directTV..

    but the more i watch it the less i like it – it seems they are more interested in cracking jokes and showing clips of when the players on the show were playing instead of giving us more highlights and interviews and insights on the games and players that are playing now..

    for example – the yankees (or any other team) win a game in walk off fashion – you would think since its a 24 hour baseball channel they would have enough time to show like every single base hit and play that lead to them winning instead of the usual 15 second clip….so they show the 15 second clip and then go into another joke fest making fun of dave valle when he hit an inside the park homerun or mitch williams when he fell on the mound scratching his butt..

    if i wanted frat house comedy i’d put in my animal house dvd –

    also is it just me or do they water down the show even more on the weekends? they have that quick pitch thing that is like a 10 minute recap of all 16 games and nothing else that goes into detail on the weekend games…its a 24 hour baseball channel for crips sake give us more game detail and clips not a close up of billy ripken’s ugly mug telling us that mitch williams eats ding dongs during the commercials…

  644. #9 July 15th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    The Yanks should just go down to Texas and bring back Roger Clemens…

  645. Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN July 15th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    Chris-I have argued this numerous times and I’m tired of it, but that was a dumb comment.

  646. matthew frags July 15th, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    I don’t want to say it, b/c I understand how annoying it is for others to stand by and watch as the Yanks always go grab the top-dawg on the market…. BUT, in this case, Yanks have to do it…. AND, they’ll pay for Halladay (which makes getting him a fair-square deal).

    People blasted the Pirates for “giving” NYY Nady-Marte, but look how that deal worked out for PITT? heck, C-Guzman is still hitting over .300 (Yanks traded him in the Chuck Knauby deal)…. Juan Rivera, Nick Johnson, D-Navarro…. Point is: Yanks usually pay when they makes trades.

    BUT, as you said: Yanks are probably a playoff team, probably not a championship-quality team right now. If they get Doc Halladay…. they should win everything this year (and next).

    JOBA CHAMBERLAIN: NO doubt. Sell high on him. He was injured in college, has some “mental” imaturity issues. He has all the talent to be great. BUT, you have to give to get…. Yanks will turn around and sign the Cuban Aroldis Chapman, so they basically replace Joba with Halladay (who will be better this year and next) and then they have Chapman, who might or might not, be better than Joba in 3-4 years.

    JESUS MONTERO: May just be the next Miguel Cabrera type hitter. May even turn out to be a guy who can catch 120 games a year. BUT, Yanks can afford to deal him. They do have catchers in their system, and they can always buy a rental DH anytime.

    If the deal is centered around Joba-Montero, Yanks have to look into this. If they win back-2-back World Series titles, who cares what sort of careers these two have?

    After that, they’ll probably want an OF type, a SS type. It might take Pena & Jackson? TOR does develop pitching. BUT, they might want Pena & another pitcher.

    I would also look to expand the deal, especially if they want Ajax, and try to bring back Rios. Rios is young enough, has speed & power, has faced AL East pitching, plays defense, was an All-Star… MIght be the perfect BUY LOW type guy. He could slide in and play RF for the next 4 years.

  647. saucY July 15th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    keep the kids :(

  648. ed July 15th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    Joba yes, Montero NO

  649. tim boat July 15th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    Pete is right on Montero. The guy is like 6’4” and his waist will only get wider – no way he stays a catcher IF he makes it to the bigs.

    All the arm chair GM’s here still think Ramiro Pena, Joba, and David Robertson are enough to land Halladay. Face reality people.

  650. EY July 15th, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    Montero will never be a legitimate catcher. We have Tex locked up at 1st and DHs are all over the place nowadays.

    Keep Joba & Hughes, trade Montero.

  651. joeman July 15th, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    Joba,Montero & AJ for Doc…..I’ll do that trade in a New York minute….hello World Series

  652. Mark July 15th, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    I agree with the idea of acquiring “Doc”. My package is Hughes,Montero and Cabrera or Gardner. Must say you jumped off the Joba bandwagon in record time.

  653. Boston Dave 2.0 July 15th, 2009 at 9:30 pm

    IMO, the point is being missed.

    The Yankees only need to offer a little more than the next highest bidder.

    Other teams are NOT going to give a huge package plus the $$.

    They will give up ONE of their top prospects with a package of second-tier guys.

    Just because the Yanks can absorb the $$ doesn’t mean the other teams can.

    They certainly don’t want to give up 2 of their top guys plus the $$.

    The Yanks just need to beat the next highest offer.

  654. Melissa July 15th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

    Do we even want Halladay? The Yankees already spent too much on players. I think the Yankees should personally spend more time building up their farm system to obtain younger and cheaper talent (remember 1995 when Derek Jeter became a huge member of the playoff team as a rookie). Check out more of my thoughts, ideas, comments, and other Yankees updates at http://twitter.com/Yankeesgirl450.

  655. Bill O July 15th, 2009 at 10:29 pm

    Awful, Pete. Just awful. I mean seriously how do people turn on Joba so quickly. He isn’t even having that bad of a season. He’s still one of the up and coming pitchers in the game. Then on top of giving up a potential ace we also give up the #3 prospect in all of baseball and a guy that who if he can stick at C will be among the elite at the position. Oh and lets also throw in anyone else the Jays want from our system including the likes of Austin Jackson who is a top 50 prospect. Great idea.

    Trading the boatload of young talent it would take to acquire a 32 year old Halladay is the definition of being short sighted.

    It would dramatically improve our chances this year, but could put our team down a bad road in the future.

  656. GMAN July 15th, 2009 at 10:41 pm

    New Economics in baseball are crushing teams with lousy records rostered with high salary players over the age of 30.
    Teams like Toronto are in deep trouble and need to dump payroll.

    Sellers of High Salary Players over 30 yrs of age are in the poorest negotiating postion possible.

    It’s all about the economy!

    Halliday will not bring back anything near what the BlueJays would have gotten one year ago.

    The world has changed people!

  657. GMAN July 15th, 2009 at 10:49 pm

    Wow – What’s with all the Joba Hate!!!

    I guess somebody’s got to be the “Bad Guy” in NY and people are tired of beating on A-Rod.

    Joba will have a great 2nd half folks…you heard it hear 1st.

    Pettite is another story…generally he comes on the 2nd half. I hope he can come thru in the 2nd half but he is near the end of a great career.

  658. scott July 15th, 2009 at 10:56 pm

    THIS IS ROY HALLADAY! maybe give up montero? not give up hughes? Give em Joba, Hughes, and any minor league player they want. This is now. Lets win one this year instead of keep looking forward to the future. The yankees do not have the prospects to get halladay. the best option is philly and they would have to give up too much and take vernon and his monster salary with roy. nice to think about but halladay will stay in toronto.

  659. MJR (Shut Up Steve Phillips) July 16th, 2009 at 12:56 am

    [q]“Arenoso July 15th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    Just imagine a post season rotation of CC – Doc – AJ, the Yankees will be virtually unbeatable”[/q]

    Didn’t we say the same thing at the beginning of the year already?

    CC – AJ – Hughes/Joba/Wang/Whoever

    sad to see so many giving up on Joba so quickly.

  660. Hank Herz July 16th, 2009 at 2:01 am

    UR EDDDDD

    JOBA, KENNEDY, AND ….. JACKSON?

  661. CMC July 16th, 2009 at 8:49 am

    Why not just wait ’til he’s a free agent, like they did for Tex? I’d really rather not give away the future for the here and now? If I’m gonna get to the Promised Land, I wanna know that I can get there for x-number of years, not just one. JMHO

  662. Corrie Besaw July 16th, 2009 at 10:01 am

    This message is in reply to “Craigster”—-How could you say that Posada is Not one of the greatest? Obviously you don’t have your glasses on……Jorge has always been a huge asset to the starting line-up and if you don’t see what he’s done for the YANKEES not only in catching but also hitting, then you are truly blind…..

  663. Uncle Tito July 16th, 2009 at 10:32 am

    You cannot keep giving up on young talent for older vets. Especially since HGH & steriods are being tested now more than before. Alot of players who were peforming into their late 30′s will be done my their mid 30′s.

    As good as Doc has been, he just got back from an injury and has not looked as invinsible lately.

    Hughes & Joba are quality young pitchers. Jacksonl is needed for LF next yr. Yanks need to inject some speed, youth, & athletism into the team.

    Montero is a beast who will be a star one day. Stop giving away the future for players already in their 30′s. It has’nt worked out now for the last 6 yrs.

    Mix in the youth with the already proven vets currently on the team.

    Be smart, develop & KEEP your talent. Stop writing checks & buliding an old, slow team with no chemistry.

  664. John G. July 16th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    Let’s see….

    For Roy Halladay, who is probably the best pitcher in the majors next to Santana, you, the ever-gracious and all-knowing Yankees are willing to part with a headcase like Joba Chamberlain (who your management might have permanently damaged by pushing him into being a starter), plus Jesus Montero, and whatever other scraps from your farm system you deem worthy?

    If I’m Ricciardi, Im justifiably laughing. Really. HARD.

    My next question to you Yankee fans is: WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?

  665. steven July 16th, 2009 at 4:56 pm

    why not give them this melacorn,melky,ian kennedy and cash to pay some of his contract.

  666. steven July 16th, 2009 at 4:56 pm

    why not give them this melacorn,melky,ian kennedy and cash to pay some of his contract.

  667. Jim July 16th, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    Do it now! I think the Blue Jays will trade to the Yanks as a LAST resort but a possibilty.

  668. foxtailor July 16th, 2009 at 11:00 pm

    John G.: I’m sure Ricciardi would be laughing hardily, because that would be an absolute steal for the Blue Jays.

    1) Joba wasn’t “pushed into being a starter”; he started 15 of 18 games in the minors. He is a starter.

    2) “Scraps?” Do you know anything about Jesus Montero? Or the rest of the Yankees system for that matter?

  669. Are you Kidding? July 21st, 2009 at 12:35 am

    The Yankees do not have the prospects to get the deal done. Even if they included Hughes, the Yanks will still have to take Wells to get the deal done.

    Don’t count on it. It won’t happen.

  670. joe July 21st, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    youre crazy, you say joba wont be as good as halladay for the next year and a half but hes only 23, hes got 15 years left to play… halladay does not… if we can get him without trading hughes or joba then by all means do it but you cant trade a 23yr old with unlimited potential for some1 whos 10yrs older no matter who he is… even if hes roy halladay

  671. george July 21st, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    give them montero who cares! joba is a nut case put him inthe deal as well. get doc and watch the fun as they rip through every team, especially the red sux! We need doc since Wong is gone. next one on the list Joe Mauer the next Yankee. eat your heart out boston

  672. Shawn July 24th, 2009 at 6:01 pm

    Are you an idiot? Do you honestly think the Jays want Joba Chamberlain? You act as if that would be the center piece of deal. The Yankees have nothing the Blue Jays want or need other than money. We aren’t selling Halladay, were trading for the future beacuse we can’t afford to compete in the AL East. (Thanks to teams like the Red Sox and Yankees who buy their way into success.)

  673. Ken July 25th, 2009 at 2:22 am

    This is the worst idea ever. Joba is nearly 10 years younger than Halladay and all you fickle fans want him traded? If you’ve seen his last two starts, I believe he can be a future cog in the rotation for 1/16 the price. He’s only 23 years old and give him time to develop. Look at Zack Grienke and how long it took him to figure it out. I am so glad that none of you are the GM of this team.

  674. jets763 July 27th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    why do’t the yankees trade joba a minor league player and a guy no one mentioned brett gardener

  675. mitch July 27th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    they should get halladay,but they better not give up joba or hudges

  676. 1yankee fan in the world July 27th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    If the yankees get halladay,the world series is ours because the rotation will be
    1.Halladay
    2.sabathia
    3.burnett
    4.pettite
    5.joba
    Also if wang can come back this season ready to go and be the wang that obne 19 games 2 seasons in arrow we can put joba in the bullpen.Then our bullpen would be
    1.Aceves
    2.hudges
    3.joba
    4.bruney(if he can be dominate)
    5.coke
    6.robertson
    Lets hope they do get him.

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