Borden: Yankees will be just fine
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jul 16, 2009 
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From the last thread:
“Cervelli and Romine are ‘right there’ with Montero as in, they are not far behind him in reaching the majors”
Actually, not at all.
Cervelli’s the closest to ML ready, as he’s shown, but his bat right now could only carry a back up position.
Romine is still in high A, and making the jump from high A to AA is IIRC the hardest jump to make besides AAA to the majors–there’s no guarantee that Romine can adjust.
Meanwhile Montero is NINETEEN, the youngest active player in all of AA, and doing more than merely holding his weight.
To put that in perspective, the Yankees have an IFA guy in the GCL–the lowest level, rookie league, of the Yanks’ system–Kelvin DeLeon, who you could argue is raking, minus a crazy bad strike out total (think Ryan Howard with a decent BA here).
DeLeon is less than a year younger than Montero.
That’s how young Montero is. At nineteen he should either be in short season or maybe low A. Being 19 and in AA is just insane.
I hope that Sam Borden isn’t hallucinating.
What a homer article from Sam, I usually love his work but jee whiz. The Yankees can’t go deep in October if they can’t beat good teams Sam! I am very concerned with this team.
Borden is right the yanks will be fine. They are tradionally a strong second half team. They will be even better than they were the first half.
ugh, no game tonight?
FWIW
@SI_JonHeyman #jays told AL East contenders they much prefer to trade halladay out of the division. #yankees, #redsox
Rebecca be prepared to have a bunch of Halladay-lusters quote the names Roger Clemens and David Cone ad nauseam to try and denounce Heyman’s tweet.
Oh come on, get over this “they can’t beat good teams” nonsense. They won 2/3 against first place Detroit on the road a few months ago and you weren’t saying they can’t beat good teams?
The record against Boston is a fluke. Anyone who actually thinks about the numbers rather than citing them blindly could tell you that. Most of the games in that set of 8 were lost by sloppy play, and not by the Red Sox dominating the Yankees or anything even close to that.
This weekend, they had leads in every game against the Angels. They scored 19 runs in 3 games against their “vaunted” pitching staff. The Yankees rotation spit the bit, but that happens once in a while. They get even a quality start each game and they SWEEP the Angels.
So stop with this ridiculousness. And how about the 2/3 they took from Seattle? Also a team in contention. Or how about 4/6 against Texas? The same team that took 7/9 from the “great Angels.”
Stop with this stupidity. The Yankees have the 2nd best record in the league, and if they went even 2-6 against Boston rather than 0-8 they have the best and lead the AL East. Think about that. 0-8 is a fluke, the teams are not that far apart. The Red Sox found some ways to win close games and the Yankees found ways to lose them. There were at least 2 games in those 8 that the Yankees flat out blew, and 3 or 4 more that they were one big hit away from winning, so stop, just stop with this stupidity.
Preference is one thing, but if he turns down a better deal from the Yankees just to trade outside of the division then he’s not doing his job and should be fired by his boss.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
July 16th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
FWIW
@SI_JonHeyman #jays told AL East contenders they much prefer to trade halladay out of the division. #yankees, #redsox
===============
Meaning they’ll want a lot if they do trade in the division.
That’s all.
The last great Yankee won was started by the acquisition of two Blue Jay pitchers, Jimmy Key and David Cone. Think AJ and Doc could lead to the next great run?
26 hours until Yankee baseball!!!!!!
“Meaning they’ll want a lot if they do trade in the division.
That’s all.”
Yup, the Yankees offer has to be superior.
Matt:
We might see the 8 games in Boston as a fluke, but the standings don’t.
And in the end the standings, and not our own opinions, are what matters.
Matt July 16th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Oh come on, get over this “they can’t beat good teams” nonsense. They won 2/3 against first place Detroit on the road a few months ago and you weren’t saying they can’t beat good teams?
The record against Boston is a fluke. Anyone who actually thinks about the numbers rather than citing them blindly could tell you that. Most of the games in that set of 8 were lost by sloppy play, and not by the Red Sox dominating the Yankees or anything even close to that.
This weekend, they had leads in every game against the Angels. They scored 19 runs in 3 games against their “vaunted” pitching staff. The Yankees rotation spit the bit, but that happens once in a while. They get even a quality start each game and they SWEEP the Angels.
So stop with this ridiculousness. And how about the 2/3 they took from Seattle? Also a team in contention. Or how about 4/6 against Texas? The same team that took 7/9 from the “great Angels.”
Stop with this stupidity. The Yankees have the 2nd best record in the league, and if they went even 2-6 against Boston rather than 0-8 they have the best and lead the AL East. Think about that. 0-8 is a fluke, the teams are not that far apart. The Red Sox found some ways to win close games and the Yankees found ways to lose them. There were at least 2 games in those 8 that the Yankees flat out blew, and 3 or 4 more that they were one big hit away from winning, so stop, just stop with this stupidity.
—————————-
The losses in the standings count the same. There are no “what if” wins credited to the Yanks.
Erica: 26 hours too many.
I’ll make due with the 2 until Mets baseball for now…
And to add to that post, they are 7-0 against Minnesota, another team in contention. But they are only 1 game over .500 you say?
Well take out that 0-7 and they are 45-37 against everyone else, or a .549 winning percentage.
On the other hand, against everyone but the Yankees the Red Sox are 46-34 (.575) and the Angels are 45-35 (.563), while the Yankees against everyone but Boston are 51-29 (.638).
But we all know that a team that is .575 against everyone but a fluky set of 8 games is far more dominant than one that is .638 in all other games?
repost if anyone cares
I still don’t want Halladay for the price we’d have to pay and I still don’t think Cashman will get him.
If Halladay was a free agent right now I’d love to have him. Unfortunately, he’s not a free agent and would cost a lot in prospects to get.
It’s the same situation when Santana was traded. Cashman WILL NOT mortgage the future to get an aging ace. Everyone thought Santana (who is younger than Halladay) would be an ace in the NL for many years to come. He was practically voted Cy Young before the 2008 season even started.
Unfortunately there is some evidence that Santana is already in decline. His K/9 in 2008 was 7.91, his lowest since 2001. So far this year it’s gone up but still not even close to the K/9 he put up while with the Twins.
It’s the same story when looking at BB/9, AVG against, WHIP, FIP, etc. Since going to the mets, all of these stats have gotten worse. There is a clear downward trend in performance.
And here’s the real killer. This year Santana averages 90.8 MPH on his fastball. Back in 2006 he averaged 93.1 MPH. Another thing that pops out is how few sliders he throws. Back in his heyday with Minnesota he threw the slider 16-19% of the time. This year that’s down to 9.2%. Why? Because it puts strain on his arm and he can’t handle it anymore.
My point with all of this is as good as Halladay looks now, you never know when he will start to decline. Chances are, at age 32, it will be soon.
Keeping in mind that kind of risk, it’s not worth it to trade high-end, cost-controlled, YOUNG talent. Not only are you losing guys that should be entering their prime soon, you are upping the payroll and possibly getting stuck with a declining pitcher.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
July 16th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Erica: 26 hours too many.
I’ll make due with the 2 until Mets baseball for now…
***
What is more desperate- watching Mets baseball or me going my office softball game?
But it doesn’t matter what the standings say if they MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. Get over the ridiculousness.
Who cares if they go 0-19 against Boston if they make the playoffs? Anyone who actually watches the games could tell you that if they played those same 8 games over again, the Yankees would have won some of those 95% of the time. They had some fluky games, get over it.
Regular season means absolutely nothing come postseason. The Indians had how many wins against the Yankees in 2007? ZERO.
Detroit in 2006? The Yankees were 4-2 against them. But I thought they couldn’t beat good teams?
It’s a crapshoot, it’s about who gets hot. If Sabathia and Burnett get hot, the Yankees will beat these teams. If they spit the bit, they won’t. That has nothing to do with whether they can “beat good teams” or not. It comes down to your pitching.
I can’t wait until some games begin because all this rehashing about Halliday is quite boring.
Gammons on 1050 – Jays don’t want Joba… they want Hughes, Jackson and someone else. Says Joba has a lot of questions about him from the scouts about his velocity. Also says he doesn’t think Cashman is willing to give all that up for him.
Gammons on 1050:
-told one other team, other than the Phillies, interested in Halladay. If he had to guess, it’s Texas.
-essentially trading for someone for 50 starts
-makes sense for the phillies
-There are questions in people’s minds about what is Joba Chamberlain. His value has dropped. The yankees would have to give up Joba and Hughes(not just one or the other in a package) and it would be too much for the yankees to give up for Halladay. Doesn’t see them being in play for Doc.
If we were the ones who were 8-0 vs. Boston, 4-2 vs. the Angels, 2-1 vs. the Phillies… would you say our records against them was a fluke?
Exactly.
Gammons on 1050 saying that Joba wouldn’t get it done— Jays want Hughes.
“-told one other team, other than the Phillies, interested in Halladay. If he had to guess, it’s Texas.”
It’s San Francisco trut me.
SA says they want Joba and Hughes. Mark says they don’t want Joba.
“The Red Sox found some ways to win close games and the Yankees found ways to lose them.”
The mark of a winner is to find ways to win close games. Stop making excuses for the Yankees.
Erica: Definitley me.
Matt:
Again, you can’t play the “what if” game. What matters is what the standings say. The Yankees don’t get a re-do for the games against the Sox and the Twins can’t redo their games against the Yankees…
Gammons sounds scared of Hughes in the 8th inning.
As a few people have tried to say… Joba doesn’t have nearly as much value as some fans think he does.
Not everyone thinks he is the next Roger Clemens and is a sure-fire ace.
If I was JP, I’d want Hughes over Joba as well. Far less questions.
carl July 16th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
SA says they want Joba and Hughes. Mark says they don’t want Joba.
======================
Joba and friends alone, they don’t want. If there is a deal to be made for Doc it would have to be Joba and Hughes + more peeps
mswain1 BREAKING Bruce Levine reporting Bj Ryan has signed with the #Cubs 1 year minor league deal
# Rose July 16th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
“The Red Sox found some ways to win close games and the Yankees found ways to lose them.”
The mark of a winner is to find ways to win close games. Stop making excuses for the Yankees.
——————
This is true.
All I’m hearing from Matt is excuses and convenient cherry picking by removing losses and downplaying “fluky” happenings.
You are using one series against the Phillies to judge them? Are you serious?
The Yankees came back both those games and should have won 2/3 but had some bad luck in that Teixeira ripped one right into a double play in extras. Get over it.
You people would send a top prospect down if he has one bad start to begin his major league career. Small samples sizes mean nothing, it’s about who is hot and who is not.
The Yankees pitching completely fell apart in Anaheim. That doesn’t mean they can’t beat a good team, they took 2/3 from the same team a few months back when they had much better talent on the field. So then they could beat good teams and now they can’t?
So when they took 4/6 from Detroit and Anaheim after getting swept in Boston, that doesn’t count as beating good teams? Or how about winning both series against Texas? Those don’t count? Winning 2/3 series against Tampa? That doesn’t count either. 3/4 against Toronto? I guess no teams are “good teams” except Boston?
I guess Boston must have a 1.000 winning percentage since they beat “good teams.” Oh wait, they don’t? Funny, their winning percentage outside of those 8 games is .575, which is 60 points lower than the Yankees.
How you get to the postseason means nothing. Once you get there, it’s luck, about who gets hot. The Yankees get hot, and they win. They get cold, they don’t. Tampa got hot at the right time last year and beat Boston, so I guess they’re not so invincible are they?
Detroit? Cleveland? Did you seriously think any of those teams even had a CHANCE to beat the Yankees? Guess which teams beat the Yankees in the playoffs back to back years?
“July 16th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Gammons sounds scared of Hughes in the 8th inning.”
This is awesome
3:56pm: The Blue Jays told the Yankees and Red Sox they’d prefer to deal Halladay outside of the AL East according to Jon Heyman.
Get over Heyman, dude’s a puppet.
It’s obvious the Jays are just pushing up Halladay’s cost.
That’s it.
Gammons on 1050:
Ouch! That means NESPN is extremely worried the Jays will trade to the Yanks! LOL! I believe Hughes/Joba/Montero all stay in NY and Wells comes to NY with Halladay. Gammons is always trying to boost the Yankees trading partners into getting more when he feels it is evident that the trade between the two will happen. If Gammons thought Boston was in play he’d say their AAA & AA & A prospects are world beaters and he wouldn’t be sure if anyone would want to risk trading for an injury plagued 32 year old RHP. LOL! But Boston might take a shot at giving up a top prospect because it is an divisional trade.
The best part of this Halladay trade talk will be Joba hearing these rumors.
The idea of the Jays not wanting him and preferring Hughes isn’t going to be the most comforting thing to hear.
The yanks wouldn’t trade Hughes and Kennedy for Santana.
Hughes + Joba isn’t going to happen. Neither is Hughes + Montero.
The yankees have far fewer pitching needs than they did when they went after Santana.
And the Jays are kidding themselves if they think they’ll get that much back for Halladay.
This reminds me a lot of the santana deal. We kept hearing about how much the twins would get for him – but the Twins had no leverage. Santana did. And the economics of the game were changing even then as fewer and fewer teams were willing to pay out $120M+ contracts for pitchers.
In the end the Twins didn’t even come close to the value they thought they’d get back.
In fact, they might not even get one everyday player out of that deal.
The Jays are stuck here. They’re going to try to get one team to fall in love and bid astronomically higher than anyone else. Otherwise they’re going to wait and watch and see that a robust market doesn’t develop.
Wow, are you people serious?
If they make the playoffs and play Boston, guess what their record is?
0-0.
It means absolutely nothing if they find a way to make it anyway.
But I’m sure beating up on Boston would instantly make them a better team, right? I mean, they made the playoffs last year when they had an over .500 record against Boston, Tampa, Chicago, etc? Oh wait, they didn’t.
You have to beat ALL teams. It’s not an excuse, it’s reality. 8 games against Boston out of 80-something games does not make or break a season. The Yankees are dominating all teams not named Anaheim or Boston this year. And contrary to popular belief, some of those teams are in fact good teams. You have to beat the teams you’re supposed to beat, and the Yankees do that.
As long as you make the post season, you have a 1/8 chance to win depending on who is hot and who is not. The Yankees sure looked like a great team in 2004 when the Red Sox were getting blown out every game? Guess which team won the series when their pitching got hot and the Yankees hitting died?
It’s a crapshoot. They could go 0-30 against Boston and Anaheim, and if they went 95-40 against everyone else it wouldn’t matter since they would be in the postseason, and anything can happen once you get there.
So you’re telling me that if CC and AJ start chucking shutouts up there every night that they will have no chance because they “can’t beat good teams?” Wow, you people are OBSESSED with Boston. Get over it.
whew! thanks Sam
so it has been writter, so it shall be done!
Erica Softball for sure
If the Jays don’t value Joba, then how can the Red Sox trade for Halladay? They’d have to give up Lester. They don’t have a pitching prospect close to joba.
The blue jays just lost AJ Burnett to the yankees. Do people honestly think they want to trade Halladay to the yankees? There fanbase would be livid. The only way the jays will trade Halladay to the yanks is if the yanks overpay. Give up Hughes, Joba and Montero then you could probably get Hallady.
Sox are not going to be in play for Halladay at all. They don’t need him.
Yanks will take a look but I don’t think they’re serious either.
I think the most likely scenario is that the Jays keep him.
Jerkface
July 16th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
If the Jays don’t value Joba, then how can the Red Sox trade for Halladay? They’d have to give up Lester. They don’t have a pitching prospect close to joba.
——————————————-
Red sox are not trading for Hallady.
CB
July 16th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
The best part of this Halladay trade talk will be Joba hearing these rumors.
===============
Haha, didn’t think of it that way.
The fear in his bones is gonna make him pitch well!
Soon he’ll be throwing 98 and working 7+ innings!!!
Hughes has been awesome! Joba not so much…
That’s why all the jawboning about which minor-league prospects are going to be major league superstars is a total waste of time. More often than not, you’re sure-fire, next-big-thing turns up bust.
Who would have predicted a year ago that Hughes would look so much more mature, self assured and just downright better than Joba…or that Cervelli, Pena, and Gardner would show so well in their first big chances in the bigs. You can’t predict.
Montero can slam AA pitching? Great! Let’s bring him up at the end of the season and see what he does against some major league pitchers.
Joba doesn’t care about the rumors. All he knows is that tomorrow the sun will come up and he will have a job.
Joba is too arrogant to let it affect him unless he actually gets traded. Then I think he will have a fire lit under that out-of-shape butt of his.
Montero can slam AA pitching? Great! Let’s bring him up at the end of the season and see what he does against some major league pitchers.
===========
Yes, because you must remember: curveballs don’t exist below the ML level.
Boston doesn’t want Halladay in NY. Yanks don’t want Halladay in Boston. Dodgers don’t want Halladay in Philly! Philly doesn’t want Halladay in LA. Giants want Halladay & Wells/Rios. Seems like a lock, except the Yanks may want both as well. The addition of Wells will probably make it a 2 team race SF & NYY. It will be a matter of how badly SF wants them. SF is loaded in Pitching. Hitters from other teams can be cheaper than Halladay/Wells or Rios. Even a straight Rios to SF is a possibility with Wells & Halladay to NY. That I believe will happen. Gammons almost makes me think it is a done deal, but w/o Hughes or Joba. Coke probably is gone though.
carl July 16th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Joba doesn’t care about the rumors. All he knows is that tomorrow the sun will come up and he will have a job.
——————-
Tomorrow the sun will come up in Toronto, too.
“The blue jays just lost AJ Burnett to the yankees. Do people honestly think they want to trade Halladay to the yankees? There fanbase would be livid.”
This is something Yankee fans just don’t understand. The Blue Jays, JP and their fanbase can’t stand the yankees.
JP assembles what looks like a very good team on a consistent basis and they get pummeled year in and out. If they were in any other division they’d make the playoffs.
This is a big reason why JP keeps blowing out his young pitchers arms. He keeps pushing them to try to make the playoffs. They can’t handle the workloads and they get hurt one after another.
The fanbase up there also can’t stand the yankees.
People keep saying that if the best deal is with the yankees JP will get fired if he doesn’t make it.
To the contrary the thing that will get JP fired is trading Halladay to the yanks (or the sox) and having them win the world series. That would make their fanbase livid as well as their ownership.
Let’s put it this way – Bill Smith is still the Twins GM despite trading Santana for absolutely nothing.
The only way JP could risk trading Halladay inside the division is if the deal was an absolute lock, stock and barrel killing for the Jays.
And the only real way JP could be assured of that would be to dump Wells’ contract – not Rios – Wells.
If JP dumped Wells contract, got some value back in talent and Halladay led the Yankees to the series JP would be ok – just barely. The fanbase knows Wells is killing the entire franchise and its future.
The best part of this Halladay trade talk will be Joba hearing these rumors.
=============================
Hearing rumblings that people are questioning what exactly he is doing and that his stock has dropped just might the kick in the pants he needs.
Who knows.
just might the kick=just might be the kick
and with that I go home.
The Jays are stuck here. They’re going to try to get one team to fall in love and bid astronomically higher than anyone else. Otherwise they’re going to wait and watch and see that a robust market doesn’t develop.
—————————————————–
Agreed!!! I have a feeling that the trade deadline will come and go, and Roy Halladay will still be a Blue Jay.
It really is amazing what Hughes to the bullpen as done. Hughes has a higher trade value than Joba right now. Gammons is calling him a 1996 Mariano Rivera. Kay is in love with Hughes after last year he was killing Hughes saying he is not a major league pitcher. Reading this blog everybody now wants to trade Joba he was an untouchable a couple of months back. Its amazing Joba and Hughes switched roles from last year Joba is now the bust and Hughes is the stud. Fans are very fickle.
in the last thread a trade for Brian Bannister was brought up, i actually would not be against a trade for him. We do not need an ace, we need someone who can be better than what we have been getting in the bottom half of our rotation.
“The best part of this Halladay trade talk will be Joba hearing these rumors.”
once again, CB, you have proven yourself the sage of this board!
Matt: Your fault is that you automatically assume the Yankees will make the playoffs. Nowhere is it written in stone that the Yankees will get to the playoffs.
You can bet your bottom dollar the sun will come out tomorrow.
The blue jays just lost AJ Burnett to the yankees. Do people honestly think they want to trade Halladay to the yankees? There fanbase would be livid….
—————————————————
One thing you have to realize is that the Blue Jays spent the first 3 months of the season right in the middle of the AL East race. But, they only drew 22,000 fans per game (it would have been less but the Yankees and Red Sox played 6 games in the Rogers Center and boosted their attendance) during that period. Thats awfull attendance for a team in a divisional race. The fact of the matter is that the Blue Jays haven’t got a fan base anymore. They haven’t had a fan base since the strike. Thats why they want to unload, Halladay, Wells and Rios.
I don’t think the Yankees will trade Hughes.. at least I hope not. The advantage the Sox have over the Yankees is that the Sox WILL trade Bucholz. My word, if Doc goes to Boston……..
77513:
Hughes in the bullpen suffers from incredibly small sample size, but the numbers are INSANE.
Hughes’ ERA is 0.98, his BAA is .115, OBPA is .182 and WHIP is 0.655.
Full splits here
http://www.baseball-reference......;t=p#sprel
These rumors may be good for Joba, but they aren’t so hot for Phil. Every year he’s part of trade talks – he spent one winter wondering if he was going to MN and now he’s got to wonder if the Yankees are going to send him to Toronto.
It seems to me to be obvious that the Jays would greatly prefer to trade Halladay, if not out of the division, to a team other than the Red Sox, Yanks (or Tampa).
The point of the trade, from the Jays’ point of view, is not just to make them a better team down the road. It would be to give the Jays a better chance of making the playoffs down the road.
The Jays are behind the Red Sox, Yanks and Rays. They can’t afford to trade Halladay to one of those teams, and make one of those teams better, unless the trade improves the Jays by more than the trade improves the Yanks and the Red Sox, during the time period the Jays are interested in competing for.
Let’s agree that a Halladay deal to the Yanks or the Sox would improve the Yanks, or the Sox, more than the Jays in 2009 and 2010. The Jays would need to be looking at the years 2011 and after in making the deal with the Yanks or Sox.
The problem for the Jays is, they can’t be sure the Yanks or Red Sox won’t extend Halladay’s contract or resign Halladay after 2010.
So the Jays would need to believe that Hughes, or Joba, plus the minor leaguers they get, would make them better in 2011 (and after) by enough to give them a chance of catching the Yanks or the Sox with Halladay on their roster. Plus, the Jays know the Yanks and the Sox won’t be happy with winning in 2009 and 2010, but will intend to compete in 2011 and after too.
Altogether, a very tough decision.
The Jays don’t have this problem if they trade Halladay to a team other than the Yanks, Red Sox or Rays. The Jays just need to ask, have we improved ourselves in 2011 and after by as much as possible?
The potential improvement to the Yanks, Sox or Rays doesn’t enter the equation. It’s simpler, less risky and therefore much likelier.
CB
July 16th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
The best part of this Halladay trade talk will be Joba hearing these rumors.
That is a good thing and thought CB! I believe Halladay has a no trade option, so he’d have to approve a deal much like Santana did. So if Halladay wants to be a Yank then he will be. There is a reason Toronto didn’t want Halladay officially talking to other teams, and I bet it is because his list is very short and would prevent Toronto from getting the most value. Toronto needs to get rid of Wells’ contract. They have no other options to tie him with in a trade that i know of. So if SF & NYY are the only teams in play for Wells (IMO) then Halladay will be a Yankee.
Also, I don’t think Toronto has time to wait on a Wells/Halladay trade because they are basically in default to the tune of $5B and their Bankers aren’t cozy to a high payroll. As I said before, Rios will be shipped out as well and Toronto is loaded with prospects.
“My word, if Doc goes to Boston……..”
We steal him through FA. They lose thier prospects and Doc.
Great points CB. Yankee fans don’t look at it from that perspective at all.
If I’m J.P. Ricciardi the smart thing might be to keep Halladay until the offseason. At that point look at who is available on the FA/trade market, and assess the status of their injured pitchers. Depending on how guys like McGowan, Litsch and Marcum recover and what is available on the market, I think they have a shot at contending next year.
Hear me out. They have a decent young core of players – Hill, Rios, Lind and some good vets – Overbay, Rolen, Scutaro. If they can add another hitter or two and Rios has a comeback year they could be dangerous.
Their pitching also has a shot at being good. Right now it looks like Romero, Halladay and Marcum will be in the rotation next year. Litsch just had TJ surgery, he could be back by July 2010. McGowan’s career could be over (feel terrible, he had a shot at being great).
What I’m trying to say is, the Jays have a pretty good team right now. If they add some pieces in the offseason they have a shot at contending. They might not ever trade Halladay.
if joba says “the sun will come out tomorrow” one more time in a post game my t.v. is in deeeep trouble.
The buzz around Phil has returned, but it’s not because scouts now think he’s a reliever. His stuff was very good prior to being put in the pen – and his game against TX was no fluke – but something has really clicked. Scouts seemed to have worried that Phil lost his stuff thanks to injuries or mechanical issues, but now that that’s not the case, Phil is back to being the highly touted young pitcher he always was. This has nothing to do with Joba – it has to do with Phil finding himself again.
I’m not surprised Toronto wants Phil over Joba……..
Teams Boston has lost series to this year:
Tampa
Angels
Oakland
Tampa
Angels
Seattle
Mets
Toronto
Texas
Seattle
But I thought Boston always beat good teams? 8 series they have lost to teams over .500!
If Doc goes to Boston, they win a couple world series… then we sign him in 2011.
What’s so bad about that? He will then be big game tested and won’t have to learn on the fly about it here.
“The Jays are behind the Red Sox, Yanks and Rays. They can’t afford to trade Halladay to one of those teams, and make one of those teams better, unless the trade improves the Jays by more than the trade improves the Yanks and the Red Sox, during the time period the Jays are interested in competing for.”
Wave,
Perfect summary of the calculus the Blue Jays are faced with in this deal.
The potential for an intradivision trade being a disaster for them is far too high to ignore.
That’s why a division rival would have to offer them something truly unique to mitigate that risk.
And that’s the capacity to take Wells contract.
That is the one way the deal would substantially mitigate the risk the jays are absorbing.
“Hear me out. They have a decent young core of players – Hill, Rios, Lind and some good vets – Overbay, Rolen, Scutaro. If they can add another hitter or two and Rios has a comeback year they could be dangerous.
Their pitching also has a shot at being good. Right now it looks like Romero, Halladay and Marcum will be in the rotation next year. Litsch just had TJ surgery, he could be back by July 2010. McGowan’s career could be over (feel terrible, he had a shot at being great).”
Two points.
1) Toronto can’t keep that core together if it’s trying to shed payroll, so that works against them.
2) More importantly, until Toronto figures out the Verducci effect and what it took the Yankees too long to learn and what Dusty Baker has never, ever learned, Toronto will always be dealing with young ppitchers that should be great, but aren’t pitching because they are too injured.
Marco July 16th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
If Doc goes to Boston, they win a couple world series… then we sign him in 2011.
What’s so bad about that? He will then be big game tested and won’t have to learn on the fly about it here.
—————
Don’t think I can stand to see Boston win another 2 World Series while the Yankees sit on their million dollar couches.
Joba and Pettitte are inconsistent. Wang is a question mark, will he pitch well whenever he comes back.
I wouldn’t give up Hughes in a trade. He is young and could be a #2 in the rotation. Joba has not improved from last year as a starter. He has taken a step back, even his attitude is not good.
Cashman needs a starter but I don’t think it will be Halladay.
The same reason that the Jays don’t want Joba and want Hughes is the same reason why we DON’T want to trade Hughes and trade Joba.
“Gammons on 1050:”
You hear what they want you to hear.
CB-
I believe it’s a real question whether the Yanks can afford to renegotiate Halladay’s contract and still acquire replacements for Damon and Matsui, and Posada, Jeter and Rivera when the time comes.
That argument is even more forceful if you consider Wells’ contract, which in the out years is as high as where Halladay’s contract is likely to be renegotiated to.
I think the chance of the Yanks’ taking Wells is pretty close to zero.
Bannister is a junk baller, can he even touch 90 MPH?… he would get destroyed in the AL East.
I’m just glad no one is floating the idea of sending Chapman to Toronto for Halladay. He’s the crown jewel of the system!
Incidentally, I also think Ricciardi should be fired immediately. Look at what he’s done to some of the young pitchers in their organization.
For example, Dustin McGowan (ace potential) in 2006 threw 84 innings in AAA and 27.1 innings in MLB for a total of 111.1 innings.
In 2007 he threw 22 innings in AAA and 169.2 innings in MLB for a total of 191.2 innings.
That’s an increase of 80.1 innings overall. Keeping in mind that the majors and AAA are different when it comes to innings limits, he pitched 142.1 extra innings at the major league level.
That is simply absurd. Now McGowan has a frayed labrum and his career is pretty much over.
So the Jays hate the Yankees, but they don’t hate the Red Sox?
Betsy July 16th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
So the Jays hate the Yankees, but they don’t hate the Red Sox?
lol
“That is simply absurd. Now McGowan has a frayed labrum and his career is pretty much over.”
I remember watching McGowan pitch when he was healthy and thinking “he’d make a damn fine Yankee”
Toronto as a team is up there with Dusty Baker in the way they handle young pitchers. Their fans deserve so much better.
Joba is at his lowest point, Hughes is near his highest point (not as high as after the 07 ALCS, but the next tier).
Of course the buzz around Hughes is back… just like it was around Joba last year. Did anyone remember Hughes when Joba threw that gem in Fenway?
If Joba starts throwing 100 MPH again next year while Hughes has growing pains trying to develop his secondary pitches, the projections will be reversed, yet again.
Buzz is correlated to performance. If Joba’s next 2 starts are of the 7 IP, 2 ER, 2 BB, 8 K variety, watch how quickly the perception changes.
On a more serious note, many of you will have a better sense of this than I, so this is more of a question than an assertion:
Has this process already gone too far for JP to NOT trade Halladay? Once the player involved is making public statements about being willing to leave and being ready to “go for it”, can you do no deal at all?
CB, the Yankees need pitching – 2 starters. What do you think they should do?
Rebecca,
1) Are they trying to shed payroll, do we know that? Rios, Rolen, Overbay, Lind, Hill, Halladay, Romero are already signed next year. Keeping that core together could be difficult down the road but for next year it is there.
They would just need to add a bit of payroll and get a 4th starter and 1 or 2 big bats. Do that and they are a contender IMO.
2) Funny you should mention JP’s mishandling of pitchers, I just wrote a post about it
Betsy: Toronto’s just a four hour drive from the Syracuse/Rochester area, so a lot of upstate Yankee fans that can’t get to the city go to Toronto to catch Yankee games.
Imagine if every time the Yankees played the Phillies, for example, hoards of Phillies fans from wherever came and infiltrated Yankee Stadium (and that actually happened)?
Familiarity breeds contempt.
pat
July 16th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
“Gammons on 1050:”
You hear what they want you to hear.
————————————————————
So, the truth is finally known. Pat is Bobcat. Patcat?
As stated last week, if the talks include Vernon Wells, you move to the front of the line…..Rios of course is the better option….Maybe Toronto helps with part of his salary, like Hicks did with A-Rod….
“I’m just glad no one is floating the idea of sending Chapman to Toronto for Halladay. He’s the crown jewel of the system!”
Chapman became untouchable around here after he won his second Cy Young award.
Joba doesn’t need to hit 100 again. He needs to be at 95-96-97 mph.
Didn’t JP reorganize the Jays rotation twice last year so we would draw Burnett and Halladay?
Burnett started 3 days rest right before the ASB against us. Halladay got pushed back an extra day twice just to face us.
Has this process already gone too far for JP to NOT trade Halladay? Once the player involved is making public statements about being willing to leave and being ready to “go for it”, can you do no deal at all?
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If the Blue Jays don’t get what they want for Halladay this year, I see no problem with them choosing to wait until the offseason or till next year’s trade deadline. The truth of the matter is that the Jays DON’T HAVE to trade Halladay. His salary isn’t breaking the bank. They have chosen to pursue this path to try and get the most value for him…not because they need to trade him.
The Yankees have a Multi-Billion dollar stadium and a Trillion Dollar desire to win. They signed ARod after he opted out for tons of more cash including the $$ lost from Texas.
Do you really think that a mere $20M/yr (Wells Contract) is going to keep the Yankee Brass from making a deal? The only thing that will prevent it is if Toronto which IMO has no other options, will get too greedy like the Twinkies did with Santana. I suspect that the only reason this isn’t an officially done deal is I believe Cash$$ is trying to trade Swish for a prospect that Toronto wants as well.
Yankee OF 2009 LF-Damon CF-Wells RF-Cabrera (Gardner)
Yankee OF 2010 LF-Jackson CF-Wells RF-Cabrera (Gardner)
Riccardi is from Massachusetts originally isin’t he?
I bet he is grew up a Sux fan.
Nick in SF in Apple Valley, CA
July 16th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
On a more serious note, many of you will have a better sense of this than I, so this is more of a question than an assertion:
Has this process already gone too far for JP to NOT trade Halladay? Once the player involved is making public statements about being willing to leave and being ready to “go for it”, can you do no deal at all?
————————————————————
I don’t think it really matters to Halladay. He said earlier that he had no problem with a trade if it really helped the team. Figuring out whether he meant to include himself in trade talks, I couldn’t say.
Chapman – The Great Aussie Ker
“I believe it’s a real question whether the Yanks can afford to renegotiate Halladay’s contract and still acquire replacements for Damon and Matsui, and Posada, Jeter and Rivera when the time comes.”
This is a very real concern and one that I also harbor. It’s not one yankee fans will want to hear but it’s a major concern.
What business isn’t worried about how it distributes it’s investments and assets, particularly if they continue to concentrate and accrue in any one aspect of their operations?
Trading for pitchers while you’ve focused so much of your amateur player acquisition on pitching is particularly tough.
Not only would Halladay be adding cost – he’ll be adding huge net costs compared to what they would have been paying hughes or joba to fill that spot.
If you assume that the yankees have infinite funds then it’s not an issue.
But if you think that the current payroll will be their goal payroll than it’s a real issue moving forward. Especially if you are losing cost controlled players.
they would be nuts not to make at least an offer for Halladay, I hope they did or do, this guy sloves two problems for them. Improves the SP & RP all in one trade, make a huge offer and bring back Rios also,then there’s no need to go out and get a OFer in the off-season…Is Cody gone yet?
The red sox are not going to get Halladay. I dont know why people think that. If anything the jays will use the yanks and sox to drive up Halladay’s price before they trade him to a team like the phillies.
Joba has a 3.62 era in 154.1 innings pitch as a starter. Did people never expect Joba to struggle in the majors. This is the first time in his major league career than he is struggling. He was dominant both as a starter and reliever last year and when he came up in 2007 he was lights out. I believe Joba will make his adjustments and have a good second half.
Halladay with 1.5 yrs left > Halladay with 1 yr left
You get 2 cracks at the playoffs with him in your rotation… his value is much higher now than it would be this winter.
CB: As much fun as it is to think that the Yankees have unlimited funds, they certainly don’t–after all, isn’t Pittsburgh eating some of Hinske’s contract?
I suspect that J.P. Ricciardi is getting a directive from the Jays Board of Directors to trim payroll wherever possible. Since the death of their owner and a bad economy, they’ll find ways to sooth over their fanbase.
Matt
July 16th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
I suspect that J.P. Ricciardi is getting a directive from the Jays Board of Directors to trim payroll wherever possible. Since the death of their owner and a bad economy, they’ll find ways to sooth over their fanbase.
==================
They already have
the fake umps…
As CB points out…. acquiring Halladay is way more complicated than people are making it out to be.
It is a pipe dream at this point.
“the Yankees need pitching – 2 starters. What do you think they should do?”
I don’t know if they need 2 starters I guess. They could use 1 starter and one reliever and move Aceves into the rotation full time, for instance.
The ups and downs of the season are signficant. At the beginning of the year the vast majority of the posters here were definitively certain the bull pen was an utter disaster and unfixable unless massive trades were made. This was said over and over and over again.
But that worked out.
I think the starting pitching will as well. Give Mitre a crack. See what happens. If not make a trade for a back end guy.
And be patient. I don’t think Joba is going to pitch as badly as he recently has been for the entire second half.
You can’t build a baseball team moving from one knee jerk reaction to another.
And again – we were guaranteed by many here that the bull pen was the absolute death knell of this team for most of the first part of the season. There was simply no way it could turn around without big changes. Why was Cashman waiting? Have to be “aggressive,” etc. etc.
I was in the car and heard Gammons on 1050. Holy cow did he take a dump on Joba.
He laughed off the mere idea of Joba for Halladay.
I’m sure if were Daniel Bard he would have said it’s too much for Halladay.
He’s completely transparent.
While I hope the trade rumors inspire Joba to get his act together I also hope someone somewhere lets him hear Gammons basically call him a bust on national radio.
Even if the Sox got Halladay, where on earth would they pitch him?
Would they just eat Penny’s contract if they couldn’t find any takers? Or Smoltz? or keep Daisuke on the DL?
And if the Sox really did want to trade Buchholz–who not so long ago was their top ranked prospect–that should send off warning bells in any reasonable GM’s head.
Mets should sign Bonds… he would provide some power to that lineup and give them a jolt.
The only way I could see the yanks getting Halladay is if they take Vernon Wells bloated contract. If they did that the yanks could be the first team apporoaching a 300 million payroll, I doubt Hal would allow Cashman to do that. Didn’t the yanks go over there budget when they signed Teixeira. Also, yankees cut some ticket prices and are not selling the real expensive seats at the stadium. I dont think they will be raising there payroll much during the trade deadline.
Rebecca its Holladay, they will find a place to pitch him.
Halladay***
Rebecca,
The Sox can trade Penny to the Mets or Phillies or a plethora of other teams needing a starter in a heartbeat if they don’t try to be smart alecks and ask for the teams top prospect back for him.
As for Smoltz, he can help in the pen if he didn’t pan out as a starter and might have more bullets as a short reliever if he doesn’t regain his form.
Boston “desperate” to get rid of Lugo.
http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....tra_bases/
The only known fool to take him would be Omar Minaya.
CB: I’d keep Aceves in the pen.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the ‘pen started to stabilize once Aceves was brought in, and then got slammed in Anaheim when he was no longer available.
It’s got less to do with his own abilities–which are suprisingly excellent–and more to do with the fact that it keeps short relievers pitching short relief.
“I’m sure if were Daniel Bard he would have said it’s too much for Halladay. ”
Gammons wrote in his blog recently how “one scout” said Casey Kelly was the best pitching prospect he’d seen in two years.
That’s right – a relatively soft tossing 18 year old in low A ball with very good command and pitching feel is a better pitching prospect than David Price, Clayton Kershaw, Madison Bumgarner, Neftali Feliz, Derek Holland, Stephan Strasburg, etc, etc.
It’s amazing how Gammons is always able to find that “one scout.”
Boston doesn’t need Halladay to win a World Series. They have the best record in the AL, and would easily beat the Dodgers. Randy Wolf or Kuroda wouldn’t make it out of the 3rd inning against them.
Seems like a waste of time for them to acquire him.
G Love: Good points.
I believe they have around 30 mil coming off the books this year….Halladay SP & Rios in RF doesn’t that have a nice ring (WS)
I suspect that J.P. Ricciardi is getting a directive from the Jays Board of Directors to trim payroll wherever possible. Since the death of their owner and a bad economy, they’ll find ways to sooth over their fanbase.
—————————————————-
I think you are, to a certain extent, correct. But, the Jays BOD would like to have some prospects in their system to enhance the resale value of the team…hence, the desire to trade Halladay now and get as much value (talentwise) for him. However, if JP Ricciardi isn’t able to get what the BOD thinks is reasonable value for Halladay I would suspect they would nix a bad deal. Then, in the offseason they can fire Ricciardi and bring someone else in to make deal(s) that have financial value for them.
In my opinion, the Halladay deal is Ricciardi’s last chance to fix what he screwed up in Toronto.
CB,
I’m still waiting for Manny Delcarmen to become the best relief pitcher in baseball.
Gammons called that 2 years ago just as the Red Sox started to try to deal him at that time.
He shouldn’t be allowed to do anything media wise if he’s not introduced as number 1 Red Sox fan Peter Gammons. We need a surgeons general warning with him.
John Henry loves tweaking us
He’ll get involved in Halladay just to play head games with us, even if he has no intention on acquiring him.
how about Halladay with Aceves,Hughes & Joba in the pen, then it’s see you in the WS
I actually think Smoltz ends up in the pen as the season progresses. I just hope that he doesn’t regain his closer form pitching in the shorter role.
I believe they have around 30 mil coming off the books this year….Halladay SP & Rios in RF doesn’t that have a nice ring (WS)
——————————————————–
The Yankees have about $40 million coming off the books this year.
Johnny Damon ———— $13 million
Hideki Matsui ———— #13 million
Xavier Nady ————- $6 million
Andy Pettite ————– $8 million
Jose Molina ————– $2 million
CB
July 16th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
“I’m sure if were Daniel Bard he would have said it’s too much for Halladay. ”
Gammons wrote in his blog recently how “one scout” said Casey Kelly was the best pitching prospect he’d seen in two years.
That’s right – a relatively soft tossing 18 year old in low A ball with very good command and pitching feel is a better pitching prospect than David Price, Clayton Kershaw, Madison Bumgarner, Neftali Feliz, Derek Holland, Stephan Strasburg, etc, etc.
It’s amazing how Gammons is always able to find that “one scout.”
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Its probably a red sox scout saying that. But Clay Bucholtz and his 6.75 era in 2008 will be an ace and can land you any player in the majors. But Joba is a bust Gammons doesn’t like Chamberlain because the red sox always whine about him. Gammons also said Smoltz would be the best pitcher in al east. Cant take him seriously about anything he says about the red sox or yanks.
Bucholtz Bowden Anderson or Masterson Bucholtz Anderson. Some combo of those players it would require for the RS to get Halladay.
Theo isn’t going to do that.
Dave
July 16th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
John Henry loves tweaking us
He’ll get involved in Halladay just to play head games with us, even if he has no intention on acquiring him.
————————————————————
The only ones that Henry is “tweaking” and “playing head games” with are the Yankee fans stupid enough to let it bother them.
G.Love,
It’s embarrassing to watch someone who was once a very good columnist morph into this but so be it… Like many people, once you make a name for yourself you stop doing what it was that made you successful.
I still think the most ridiculous thing I’ve seen Gammons do was at the MLB draft telecast last year when the yankees drafted Gerrit Cole.
It’s the mlb draft – a crap shoot at best. They drafted an 18 year kid out of high school. Not really an earth shaking event.
Gammons literally got choked up and looked like he was going to cry. His whole demeanor and voice became moribund because he knew how good the scouting reports on cole were and i’m sure he was hoping cole would slipe to the sox.
The sox picked right after – and who did they take? Casey Kelly.
I’m sure the revisionist history now has it that the sox genius scouting department always had Kelly pegged over cole or that they knew cole wouldnt’ sign just because they are that good.
joeman July 16th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
how about Halladay with Aceves,Hughes & Joba in the pen, then it’s see you in the WS
—————-
Maybe they could then inject Ron Guidry circa 1977 and Whitey Ford circa 1961 in the back of the rotation?
Then they could resurrect Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, and Mickey Mantle to take the pressure off Teixeira and A-Rod in the middle of the lineup?
That WS ring would then their’s to lose!!!!
Gammons also said the Red Sox wouldn’t trade Penny unless they can get a top prospect like Justin Smoak.
His credibility sinks every day. It really is a joke at this point.
Delcarmen’s last 3 years:
156 innings
2.57 ERA
.213 BAA
1.20 WHIP
He may not be THE best relief pitcher, but among non-closers, he has to be top 3 over that time span.
Anyone know what happened to Michael Kay? I haven’t heard him on his radio show or on Yes.
I agree with you Sam Borden.
GreenBeret7 July 16th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
The only ones that Henry is “tweaking” and “playing head games” with are the Yankee fans stupid enough to let it bother them.
—————
Ditto.
Considering what else is out there, Brad Penny is probably the best pitcher available after Halladay this trade deadline. That’s saying a lot more about how barren the starting pitchers market is rather than how good Penny is, but the Sox are in a good position if they want to trade him.
Guys like Lee, Washburn, etc. are not “on the block”.
carl July 16th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Anyone know what happened to Michael Kay? I haven’t heard him on his radio show or on Yes.
—————————————
maybe Mike Fran waved his majic wand & got rid of him also
carl
July 16th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Anyone know what happened to Michael Kay? I haven’t heard him on his radio show or on Yes.
Kay has gone a away….for a very long time.
Acquire Vernon Wells and then ask him to re-do his contract to make it more team friendly.
I’m sure Vernon would give back a good portion of the money is owed if he gets a chance to play for the Yankees and finally win.
Go to the players association and see if something can be worked out where Wells reduces the value of his contract.
you don’t mess with the Jones
Objective,
He was comparing Delcarmen to closers in his column when he made the prediction.
While his numbers are nice, he’s not a shut down reliever by any stretch.
Michael Kay is on vacation. I think.
And I really, really shouldn’t know this.
Thanks Rebecca
Carlos
My grandmother needs bunyon surgery do you or Wells have say 3-4 million I could have?
Acquire Vernon Wells and then ask him to re-do his contract to make it more team friendly.
I’m sure Vernon would give back a good portion of the money is owed if he gets a chance to play for the Yankees and finally win.
Go to the players association and see if something can be worked out where Wells reduces the value of his contract.
——————————————————
No dice!!! That is exactly why Arod isn’t playing for Boston today. The Rangers and Red Sox had a deal for him way back when…and it involved Arod taking a paycut. The players union nixed it. Thats why he was available for trade from the Rangers to the Yankees later that winter.
CB,
Before the internet exploded I used to go to newstands to try to read Gammons’ coulumns.
I’m stunned with what he has become. Perhaps the mortality of the stroke he had made him decide to just come out of the closet and throw away objectivity, but there isn’t another national media figure who wears his favorite team on his sleeve quite like this.
Maybe Mad Dog Russo w/his infatuation with the SF Giants but come on, does Gammons want to be lumped in with him?
It’s a shame and what bothers me more than anything is he’s the unofficial PR arm for Theo and helps prop up prospects and makes excuses for the organization nationally when they make a mistake so they are teflon.
Rebecca, you’re right about Michael Kay being on vacation until after the all-star break. Maybe you knew it because he went to Fordham too.
In Gammons defense, WOW I really said that, he is inundated with pro Red Sox talk 24-7 around the NESPN spin. Gammons use to be good for at least 4 or 5 really good insights a year but ever since his illness he hasn’t been very open-minded. Now he bashes the Yankees and praises the Red Sox. He use to at least try to hide his biases, but since the WS actually being captured by Boston in his lifetime I think he feels safe in doing so. Before the WS he would have looked silly to even his own RSox fans.
jpb1973-
You can’t look at the Yanks’ payroll by just thinking about the contracts coming off their books.
You need to look at it the other way round – how much are they already committed to next year?
If you add that up, you will discover it is around $162.5MM for 10 players: CC, AJ, Mo, ARod, Tex, Jeter, Jorge, Cano, Swisher and Marte.
Cano will get an arbitration increase next year. They’ll need to sign Wang or a replacement for him, plus 2 more starters. Wang (or a replacement as good as he was) will cost money. If it isn’t Wang, even more money.
They need to sign 5 more relievers.
They need to sign a DH, a LF, a CF, a fourth and fifth OF, a utility INF and a back-up catcher.
A lot of that can come from within – Gardner, Cabrera, Pena, Cervelli, Melancon, Robertson, Bruney – but a lot of it has to be acquired.
If you look at it that way, the Yanks aren’t free of payroll concerns, are they? And think about this year – they passed on getting Cameron, they went for Andy instead of Lowe and they fought Andy tooth and nail over his contract.
That indicates to me the Yanks this year didn’t want a higher payroll than what they had – I don’t see next year as being any different.
Now, add Wells and Halladay into the equation. Draw your own conclusions. I have.
It’s a shame and what bothers me more than anything is he’s the unofficial PR arm for Theo and helps prop up prospects and makes excuses for the organization nationally when they make a mistake so they are teflon.
The shame of it is that No one seems to care.
Has anyone EVER called him out on it? (other than on this site) After all he is a Hall of Famer.
This “stuff” goes on everywhere no one cares about
accoutabilty, integrity the truth, facts. We’re all asleep.
I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore! maybe tomorrow
http://www.bostonherald.com/sp.....port_card/
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This was kind of interesting reading. You will get a laugh on some of the assesments.
CB, I agree with no knee jerk reactions – when teams do that, when they act desperate, that’s when they make the worst deals. Can Joba turn it around? Of course he can, but there’s no guarantee he will – and I honestly think Andy has given all he has to give. I don’t think there’s much more to be squeezed out of him. We did rightly panic about the pen…………it was dreadful. Aceves is something of an anchor and his versatility is a bonus; I think he needs to be left there. I’m sure Cash will get a SP – he’s got to. I’m not panicking but I look at the rotation and I see 2 reliable SP…….that’s scary.
If for the sake of argument the Yankees take on Wells’ contract, where does he play and who doesn’t play? Or who do they trade away to Toronto?
And that’s a hefty contract. And no proof that all Wells needs is a change of scenery, although it’s got to be good for him to get off turf.
I don’t know. I don’t want to be forced to take someone else’s cast-offs.
Not when they really, really don’t HAVE to.
They can try to get a #3, #4 or #5 starter. Which is what they REALLY need anyway.
If everything falls just right, sure Halladay is a nice piece to have. But I don’t think everything is going to fall just right. I hope Cashman has his ducks in a row in case they do, but otherwise, I’d hope he is concentrating his efforts elsewhere.
The guy’s right…our rotation is made for the playoffs, and we will hit like always…its always our pitching that stops us. BUT!
If we still do trade for Halladay…
Rotation for playoffs:
Halladay
CC
AJ
Set-up guys: Joba/Hughes, Aceves, and believe it or not..Pettite! He always starts strong, so he can pitch strong for one inning, throw faster and he’s a lefty! I think its worth giving Joba up unless the Genius Cashman shows up once and again and pulls a miracle like..
Gardner,Montero,McAllister,Brackman,all the money Halladay and Well$ is owed…i think the Jays MAY take that offer, i DOUBT it, but depending on who else is left in the trade race, they may be able to do that.
G Love, I didn’t hear Gammons, but the reality appears to be that the Jays prefer Hughes over Joba – their scouts have questions about Joba. That’s not on Pete – that’s on the Jays.
In other words, don’t get so blinded by the greed of getting Halladay that Wells turns into gilded garbage.
“That’s right – a relatively soft tossing 18 year old in low A ball”
Kelly’s 19. But he does throw in the low 90′s and made half his starts in Hi-A. 35/7 K/BB ratio and a .86 WHIP for a kid that age in the Carolina League is pretty decent, no?
For me, it’s not so much the money in Wells’ contract that bothers me–though it is awful–but it is the number of years.
Sure, Damon and possibly Swisher won’t be around in 2014, but there will be other nice, young outfielders who would be available that will likely be throwing out better numbers than Wells, too.
I’m sorry. I can’t get behind a guy with a .312 OBP no matter how you slice it unless he’s an AL pitcher.
Taking on Wells is a deal breaker. The only thing worse than him is his contract.
“I agree with no knee jerk reactions – when teams do that, when they act desperate, that’s when they make the worst deals. ”
Roy Halladay is arguably the best pitcher in baseball.
Why would you ever trade him? Especially when he has a not trade clause and can hold you over the barrel?
Only one reason – you’re desperate. Very, very desperate.
Which is the same reason why the Twins traded Santana.
That’s one of the things that people who want to trade Joba, hughes, montero, etc aren’t seeing.
The Jays are the desperate team.
When Keith Law says thing like Hughes, Jackson, Montero and Coke wouldn’t be close to enough for Halladay he’s speaking about trades in a world of widgets.
Here’s the bottom line – the jays aren’t going to get equal value.
The desperate party in a transaction rarely does.
They are going to take the best deal handed to them. That’s it.
And the market will be miniscule because Halladay is the one who will dictate where he will be willing to go.
Betsy July 16th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
G Love, I didn’t hear Gammons, but the reality appears to be that the Jays prefer Hughes over Joba – their scouts have questions about Joba. That’s not on Pete – that’s on the Jays.
———–
Two months ago everything was exactly the opposite.
Watch how quick the perception of Joba changes among everyone once he strings together some good outings.
Trading for Halladay and Wells for good prospects is the way George operated. Cashman seems to be more inclined to set his sights lower for trade deadline deals and keep the better prospects.
Getting Wells would go against the direction that Cashman has been aiming towards.
“Kelly’s 19. But he does throw in the low 90’s and made half his starts in Hi-A. 35/7 K/BB ratio and a .86 WHIP for a kid that age in the Carolina League is pretty decent, no?”
Decent? Sure. Never said he wasn’t decent.
But the best prospect a scout has seen in two years during which time David Price, Clayton Kershaw, Derek Holland, Neftali Feliz, and Madison Bumgarner were all in the minors?
Give me a break.
Kelly’s having a terrific year but please spare me. It’s the sally league and he doesn’t have an off the charts arm.
Really, I don’t think what JP Ricciardi wants is at all the issue in any Halladay trade. It’s what Roy Halladay wants. He’s got a no trade clause. That means that regardless of what JP wants, Halladay can veto it. That gives him tremendous power.
Unless Halladay is made happy – presumably by an extension; why else would he have the NTC in the first place? – he’s not going anywhere. And JP knows it. He’s just blowing smoke and trying to drive up his haul in this. And he will have to give the receiving team a shot at negotiating an extension, otherwise it will be no deal. Because Halladay has the hammer.
So, the question now becomes, what does Halladay want. If it’s an extension and big time money, that drastically limits where he winds up. Assuming the Jays want to rid themeselves of another contract – Wells or Rios – at the same time, it really limits the other team.
If JP wants to shed serious payroll, he’s limited in what teams he deals with. And since Halladay has to OK anything, JP is even more limited.
It’s his – JP’s – own doing. He negotiated those contracts in the first place.
jpb1973-
You can’t look at the Yanks’ payroll by just thinking about the contracts coming off their books.
You need to look at it the other way round – how much are they already committed to next year?
If you add that up, you will discover it is around $162.5MM for 10 players: CC, AJ, Mo, ARod, Tex, Jeter, Jorge, Cano, Swisher and Marte.
Cano will get an arbitration increase next year. They’ll need to sign Wang or a replacement for him, plus 2 more starters. Wang (or a replacement as good as he was) will cost money. If it isn’t Wang, even more money.
They need to sign 5 more relievers.
They need to sign a DH, a LF, a CF, a fourth and fifth OF, a utility INF and a back-up catcher.
A lot of that can come from within – Gardner, Cabrera, Pena, Cervelli, Melancon, Robertson, Bruney – but a lot of it has to be acquired.
If you look at it that way, the Yanks aren’t free of payroll concerns, are they? And think about this year – they passed on getting Cameron, they went for Andy instead of Lowe and they fought Andy tooth and nail over his contract.
That indicates to me the Yanks this year didn’t want a higher payroll than what they had – I don’t see next year as being any different.
Now, add Wells and Halladay into the equation. Draw your own conclusions. I have.
——————————————————
The Yankees made ends meet with a $220 million payroll in 2008 in the old stadium. They now are in a new stadium that brings in more revenue (albeit with lower attendance) and only have a $200 million payroll. With another $40 million coming of the payroll this year they have plenty of room for raises and replacements. Remember, Halladay and Wells/Rios would be replacements for some of the guys who would be leaving.
I have serious doubts that the Jays are really going to move Halladay at this time, but if they did the Yankees definately can afford an increase in the payroll.
wells has 5 yrs left on his contract, not 3 months..
i thought keith law knew what he was talking about but the yanks if they gave up what dummies want them to for halladay they would be insane.
from what I read and hear Montero is the best hitting prospect in the minors in many many years, how the heck can you trade him? he will be in the majors in less then 2 years and will be 21 yrs old, you are looking at a long long long career so how the heck can you trade that type of player?????
CB: Here’s a good one for you:
If the Jays had, say, ever learned how to properly develop young pitchers, ie, if guys like McGowan and Marcum could stay healthy (a healthy Halladay/Romero/McGowan/Marcum/are you kidding me?), how does that affect the way Toronto’s season goes this year…and whether Halladay still ends up on the block?
In other words, this is a mess of the Jays’ own making, isn’t it?
for the dummies on this site vernon wells has a OBP at slightly over 300, that is melky cabrera of last year…
So if he is playing CF and does not turn it around you are playing with last years version of melky in CF for about 5 years, what do you einsteins think about that?????
CB, but you don’t think the Yankees can land Doc without giving up Phil (forget Joba now since the Jays don’t seem to like him), right? Without Phil as the centerpiece, I guess that leaves the Sox (if they agree to trade Bucholz) or the Phillies, who are probably as desperate to get Doc as the Jays are to trade him. I wonder how serious Doc is about not wanting to hit.
Lowe back in the AL East lmao
Betsy,
How do you know that the Jays wouldn’t want Joba?
Because Peter Gammons said so?
Gammons doesn’t exactly have a whole lot of credibility these days on such issues.
GF, I’m sure you’re right, but I don’t have much confidence in Joba at all right now. Am I giving up on him? Certainly not…..however, I seriously doubt he was able to get into great condition over the all-star break and his attitude needs a good fixing. That latter part is disturbing and I can see why that would turn the Jays (or whomever) off, esp. when they see a very talented prospect in Phil who has no such maturity issues. I can not say for sure whether we will see an improved Joba this year…….
“Kelly’s having a terrific year but please spare me. It’s the sally league and he doesn’t have an off the charts arm.”
No, it’s the Carolina League. The Sally League is where our highly touted 23 year old guy can’t get people out. I do agree that such an assessment is bogus with guys like Baumgarner, Parker, Feliz, etc. still in the minors, but from what I’ve been reading, the scouting cognoscenti like this Kelly quite a bit.
GF, I think SJ had also mentioned a few days back that the Jays preferred Phil……….
“In other words, this is a mess of the Jays’ own making, isn’t it?”
It is. JP has been shortsighted year after year and ruined what should be – hands down – the best pitching staff in baseball.
He’s shredded one arm after another pushing kids too fast in his attempt to beat out the yankees and red sox for a playoff spot. I’ve posted about this several times going back to winter of 2007 when i noticed the trend there.
And doing so at the same time that Andrew Friedman – with far fewer resources – was building a team that is set up to win for years.
A team that can absorb Scott Kazmir being horrific and still competing.
But JP didn’t have the patience. “Win now” translated quite nicely into win never.
And now they are going to trade Halladay for far less than he’s worth and try to start from scratch.
Only Dustin McGowan’s career will never be the same, they are stuck with Wells and Rios and will still be paying off BJ Ryan’s awful contract.
Nicely done there.
for the dummies on this site vernon wells has a OBP at slightly over 300, that is melky cabrera of last year…
So if he is playing CF and does not turn it around you are playing with last years version of melky in CF for about 5 years, what do you einsteins think about that?????
—————————————————
If Wells doesn’t work out the Yankees could cut him. Sure they’d owe him a huge chunk of change but they don’t have to keep him on the team.
Does anyone remember Don Gullett? He signed a long term deal with the Yankees in 1977 (the year Reggie signed with the Yankees). He propmtly blew out his arm and never was able to pitch…the Yankees cut him to clear room on the roster but paid him what they owed him.
casey kelly the guy who has not even decided yet if he is a SS or a pitcher. get back to me on his being on the big club in about 3 years…….
jpb1973-
The Yanks made a conscious decision to drop their payroll in 2009, from $220MM to a little more than $200MM. They talked about dropping their payroll even more.
That was when they were going into the new stadium, and I presume were projecting selling $2,500 seats and sellouts.
The economy is lousy, games aren’t selling out and expensive seats aren’t being sold.
Plus, the union contract is going to be renegotiated, and the Yanks have no idea what will happen with the luxury tax.
They have long term, very expensive commitments to ARod, CC, Tex, and AJ. They will need to replace Jeter and Posada and Rivera when the time comes. I can’t see them adding the expensive, long term commitments of Wells and a renegotiated Doc contract.
Look, neither you nor I know what the Yanks’ bottom line is but I can’t see a substantial payroll increase in the cards.
Did anyone watch the Yankee’s Classic game on YES today? It was the game at Boston from last July when Joba went 7 shut out innings. Joba’s fastball sat at 94-95 the whole game. He was able to get it up to 97 when need be. His slider was NASTY 85-87 the whole game. That pitch made the Sox hitters look like little kids. Plus he would drop in a 77mph curve for a strike every once in awhile just to keep the hitters honest. Its scary that just a year later at the age of 23 it seems he has lost so much. His velocity is down 4mph at least on every pitch.
“In other words, this is a mess of the Jays’ own making, isn’t it?”
the blue jays are 7th in the league in pitching.
they must have been doing something right .
I would find it unlikely that the RS are seriously considering Halladay. They have plenty of pitching.
What I hear is they need a bat for either 1st or 3rd.
I wonder just how much this economy has affected Henry. They had Manny’s money come of the books but they spent like a small market team this off season. It doesn’t mean they won’t spend but it does make me wonder.
Kind of funny how everyone had Boston winning the World Series last season, despite them being 1-8 vs LAA and 8-10 vs TB.
BOS vs the AL East leader and AL West leader was 9-18, and I didn’t hear too much about that. Weird.
Betsy,
No, Hughes had his maturity and toughness issues last year.
He doesn’t have them right now because he’s pitching well. Success breeds confidence.
I don’t know why you feel it’s necessary to prop Hughes up while kicking Joba while he’s down.
Doesn’t make sense to me, I guess.
There is one very, very obvious reason to prefer Hughes to Joba which I haven’t seen mentioned here:
Joba now has a history of shoulder injury.
While Hughes has an injury history of his own, none of them concern his arm.
the blue jays are 7th in the league in pitching.
they must have been doing something right .
———————————————–
Where would they stand if they didn’t have Halladay? If they trade Halladay, we’ll really find out where they stand.
Betsy July 16th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
GF, I think SJ had also mentioned a few days back that the Jays preferred Phil……….
———-
Well, I respect SJ but he goes way too haywire on all things Joba these days.
He’ll be doing just the opposite when Joba turns things around, which I expect him to do eventually.
“Do you really think that a mere $20M/yr (Wells Contract) is going to keep the Yankee Brass from making a deal?”
yes…anybody who doesnt think that is a fool…plain and simple…where not talking about 20 mill over 5 years…where talking about 20 million per year for 5 years…thats obscene money for less than what melky+gardner are doing this year for 1.5 million
1.5m value> 100m Wells
Gammons lost his credibility in 2004 and has been giddy and a Boston schill ever since. His objectivity is completely lost. He’s been rewarded with a luxury suite at his favorite venue courtesy of John Henry and gathers his slanted information from his guitar playing pal, Theo Epstein.
His Boston baseball slant is well recognized throughout the country and shame on ESPN for allowing it.
Didn’t Neyer say the Jays were scouting Hughes?
In fact, BOS was 14-14 vs NYY and LAA the year they won the World Series…
“Well, I respect SJ but he goes way too haywire on all things Joba these days.
He’ll be doing just the opposite when Joba turns things around, which I expect him to do eventually.”
just keep in mind that SJ gets impersonated a lot
jpb1973
July 16th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Does anyone remember Don Gullett? He signed a long term deal with the Yankees in 1977 (the year Reggie signed with the Yankees). He propmtly blew out his arm and never was able to pitch…the Yankees cut him to clear room on the roster but paid him what they owed him.
————————————————————
Gullett was 14-4 his first year with the Yanks. That hardly means “promptly blew out his arm” for NYY. He was 4-2 in ’78 before getting hurt on was put on the DL.
“the blue jays are 7th in the league in pitching.
they must have been doing something right ”
As CB stated, if the Jays’ rotation was healthy, they should be 1st.
Seriously. I’m not exaggerating. Not even a little bit.
But now they have to start all over again.
“Joba now has a history of shoulder injury.
While Hughes has an injury history of his own, none of them concern his arm.”
Bingo. And that shoulder injury may explain why his velocity is so inconsistent.
“Do you really think that a mere $20M/yr (Wells Contract) is going to keep the Yankee Brass from making a deal?”
yes…anybody who doesnt think that is a fool…plain and simple…where not talking about 20 mill over 5 years…where talking about 20 million per year for 5 years…thats obscene money for less than what melky+gardner are doing this year for 1.5 million
1.5m value> 100m Wells
——————————————————
If they want to raise maoney to pay Wells they will begin a Yankees Universe fan club and charge $20.00 per fan to join. Lets see…one million fans at $20.00 per fan in the club…do that for 5 years and you’ve come close to paying Wells contract.
The Yankees payroll for next season is 166 million dollars.
http://spreadsheets.google.com.....pPRtt9qIGw
“but you don’t think the Yankees can land Doc without giving up Phil”
If they took back Wells they wouldn’t. Maybe even Rios.
What I do think is this – JP may very well not get a player close to as good as Hughes back for Halladay.
I don’t think the Jays are going to get as much back as people think. They have no leverage.
They only way they will is if one team really falls in love and behaves irrationally.
I just don’t see where that is going to come from.
I thought the same thing with the Santana trade. Santana had all the leverage and Smith had none. They got zilch back for him.
JP may get more (he could hardly get less…) but this idea that he’s going to get back talent that is more than hughes + jackson + montero + coke is laughable.
Who is the grand mystery team? The Red Sox literally couldn’t make an offer better than that with four players unless they included Pedroia. The phillies couldn’t unless they go to more than four players.
I don’t see where there’s a market here that is going to give up talent that is “equivalent” to what Halladay represents.
The Jays are the desperate party and they have the least leverage of any entity involved in the deal.
JPB1973 Good idea cut wells and give him a check for $60,000,000. The Yankees are in the business of making money, not printing money.
“He’ll be doing just the opposite when Joba turns things around, which I expect him to do eventually.”
i would be very surprised if joba makes i through this season without time on the disabled list.
something doesn’t seem right with him because of the velocity issue.
Gullett was 14-4 his first year with the Yanks. That hardly means “promptly blew out his arm” for NYY. He was 4-2 in ‘78 before getting hurt on was put on the DL.
—————————————————
Considering that Gullet’s was a 5 year deal, I’d say that he was quite prompt in blowing out his arm.
sportsfans the good news is the yanks are some legit prospects for the first time in a long time. old man hughes is 22 or so joba is 23, montero is 19, ajax is 21, romine, and others are on the way…..
will the yall make it? of course not but a few will.
on the yankee budget front…pettitte, damon, nady, matsui, molina, are off the books after this year. molina and pettitte will probably be filled internally and cheapley. ajax should be on the big club next year so my point is they are going to reduce payroll.. mo will be in last year of his deal next year and jorge with 2 years to go….
hughes, chamberlain, ajax, coke, melancon, and others are much cheaper then who the yare replacing in the short run..
trade idea;;;joba or hughes(1 or the other) and swisher, romine, and a 2nd tier pitching prospect for rios and halladay.. I am not 100% sold on this but the yanks would lose 1 of the young stud pitchers, a very good catching prospect, a major league RF wit ha much shorter contract then there RF, and a pitching prospect…..not as 1 sided as the insane trades proposed here but Tor. would get 1 front line starting pitcher who is cheap and young, and 2 other potetnial stars…….
just my fantasy trade..
If you were a team and had to make a good deal to appease your fanbase, wouldn’t you take Hughes instead of Joba as well?
Gammons wasn’t breaking any ground there.
vb03
July 16th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
# Rose July 16th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
“The Red Sox found some ways to win close games and the Yankees found ways to lose them.”
The mark of a winner is to find ways to win close games. Stop making excuses for the Yankees.
——————
This is true.
All I’m hearing from Matt is excuses and convenient cherry picking by removing losses and downplaying “fluky” happenings.
********************************************
Aren’t you discounting the games where they HAVE found a way to win close games, though? There have been several this year.
JPB1973 Good idea cut wells and give him a check for $60,000,000. The Yankees are in the business of making money, not printing money.
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They did it with Don Gullett in the 1970′s. Why keep Wells (or anyone else) on the roster if they they hurt the team.
CB
Alot of these GM’s would make good poker players the way they make these deals.
GF, I think that’s an unfair comment about me. No, he hasn’t. I don’t like being accused of being so biased that I am unable to be objective. By the way, Has Phil ever been accused of not working hard? Of being uncoachable? No, he hasn’t. Kicking Joba while he’s down? If he didn’t put in the effort to condition himself, then he doesn’t get a pass from me and I would say the same thing about Phil.
JPB1973 Why would anyone trade for someone who may be a risk to hurt the team at any point? The Yankees are not going to take a player on the decline that is still owed $100,000,000. Im sorry but Don Gullett was not owed $100,000,000 big difference there. Do you honestly think Cashman is sitting there saying we will take Wells and if it doesnt work out we will cut him? I know if I made a $100,000,000 bluder at work I would be fired yesterday.
You have 2 choices of who to trade your franchise pitcher for:
A. A guy who has a shoulder injury, conditioning issues, maturity issues, arrested for DUI last year, stubborn, has a big head, doesn’t listen to advice, doesn’t throw as hard as he once did, has control problems, and has regressed every month this season.
B. The former #1 prospect in all of baseball in 06, with no upper-body injury history, great work ethic, great mental makeup (one of his best qualities in his scouting report), very mature and humble, already fought back from adversity, regained his lost velocity, excellent K-BB ratio before moving to the pen, and do we forget he already won a playoff game at age 21?
If you were not only JP, but any GM, who would you take?
halladays value is much more then santana for 1 reason he eats so many more innings…santana is a very good pitcher but he hardley ever goes more then 7 innings, halladay goes deeper. he is older and that is a knock against hallady. also the yanks farm systems is in even better shape then it was when santana came on the market alomsot 2 years ago. they have montero and ajax who were bigger question marks they also have a totally internally developed young bullpen which they did not have 2 years ago…
the reason halladay is attractive is then you have 2 mega horses at the top of the rotation(cc and halladay) and aj who is very talented as the 33 starter in the playffs that is very formidable… then hughes or joba who ever is not traded is the 4th starter net year and we will see about wang and others.. pettitte will finish our this year but with 3 guys give a lot of innings it should help protect the pen…..
“B. The former #1 prospect in all of baseball in 06, with no upper-body injury history, great work ethic, great mental makeup (one of his best qualities in his scouting report),”
Doesn’t a stress fracture of the rib count as an upper body injury?
Hughes has never had an arm injury, but I think upper body injury here is a bit misleading.
CB, that offer that Law mentioned is ridiculous, lol – the Yankees would never do that.
I don’t know what the Phillies are willing to give up (not that I’m familiar with their farm system), nor the Angels, nor anyone else. If the Jays ask for Phil, then they have to ask for his equivalent from other teams….though I don’t believe any other team has the equivalent of Phil. Possibly the Yanks could give more of very good prospects instead of Phil or Joba (the big gun) and some lesser prospects. Hal is a businessman – I don’t see him taking on Well’s contract – didn’t SJ say that the Jays tried to get the Yanks and Sox to do so and both teams refused? I don’t even know if the Jays want to get rid of Rios.
“If he didn’t put in the effort to condition himself, then he doesn’t get a pass from me and I would say the same thing about Phil.”
But people did say that about Hughes last year. That was one theory as to why he was always getting hurt and was so “fragile.”
Hughes missed near two full years due to injuries.
Lots of people said that same thing your saying now – Hughes didn’t get a “pass” because he was injured so much and was so frail.
So people felt the same way about Hughes. No different.
And I’m sure they felt completely justified in their conclusions as well based on the evidence of his extreme amount of missed time to injuries not involving his arm.
jpb1973
July 16th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Gullett was 14-4 his first year with the Yanks. That hardly means “promptly blew out his arm” for NYY. He was 4-2 in ‘78 before getting hurt on was put on the DL.
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Considering that Gullet’s was a 5 year deal, I’d say that he was quite prompt in blowing out his arm.
————————————————————
It was a 4 year deal and NYY won in ’77 with a lot of help from Gullett. But, don’t let facts get in your way. Anytime someone presents you with the facts, add more to it to fit your needs.
““but you don’t think the Yankees can land Doc without giving up Phil”
If they took back Wells they wouldn’t. Maybe even Rios.
What I do think is this – JP may very well not get a player close to as good as Hughes back for Halladay.
I don’t think the Jays are going to get as much back as people think. They have no leverage.
They only way they will is if one team really falls in love and behaves irrationally.
I just don’t see where that is going to come from.
I thought the same thing with the Santana trade. Santana had all the leverage and Smith had none. They got zilch back for him.
JP may get more (he could hardly get less…) but this idea that he’s going to get back talent that is more than hughes + jackson + montero + coke is laughable.
Who is the grand mystery team? The Red Sox literally couldn’t make an offer better than that with four players unless they included Pedroia. The phillies couldn’t unless they go to more than four players.
I don’t see where there’s a market here that is going to give up talent that is “equivalent” to what Halladay represents.
The Jays are the desperate party and they have the least leverage of any entity involved in the deal.”
CB, totally agreed.
Let’s also remember: The Yankees don’t NEED Halladay. They aren’t trotting out a rotation with 6+ ERA guys in the form of Ponson, Rasner, Karstens, et. al. Just look at the Phillies rotation! They actually NEED a good pitcher.
If I’m the Yankees, the MOST I give up is Jackson+Romine+McAllister. And that’s the absolute most. And even then, I just float Jackson+McAllister+C prospects early on. That’s better than the Twins got for Santana.
If that doesn’t get it done, it doesn’t get it done, and the team is no worse off than before.
interesting to see what the peanut galler ysays if Joba pitches well Sunday.
this is a what have yo udone for me lately crowd..
the jury is totally out on joba and hughes there futures are both unknown……
they are both young pups and with a good head both may become very good one day…..
JPB1973 Why would anyone trade for someone who may be a risk to hurt the team at any point? The Yankees are not going to take a player on the decline that is still owed $100,000,000.
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It looks like you and I are going to agree to disagree about this one. In my opinon, trading for Wells is the key to being able to get the best pitcher in baseball and potentially locking him up for 5 years.
One more thing, everyone talks like Wells absolutely stinks. He doesn’t…he’s servicable for a few years. He’s on a pace to hit over 20 home runs again this year. Yeah, he’s not playing at a level equal to what he’s going to get paid…but he is playing at a level that can help the team for a few years.
Phil also had his own Blog – so there’s that
Loved Gullett as a kid – for that one year – then he was gone
My Dad said he went to live on a farm
Gullett was signed after the ’76 season. He pitched well for the Yankees in ’77 and blew out his shoulder in ’78. The Yanks did not release him.
Jackson+Romine+McAllister
that is better then the haul for santana and that is correct….
if the yanks get rid of ajax then they need a OF for next year bad, and holliday is not the answer…
i think rios can still play, he is young, and would look good in pinstripes….
So I might be the only one with this opinion, but I actually have a hard time seeing the Yankees giving up Jackson after they gave up Tabata last year (though, to be fair, Tabata has struggled).
Of courses, that…Braves just went back to back…reasoning might have some people thinking the exact opposite.
wells does stink his numbers are awful and this is 2 years in a row and he is no teenager.. he is a albatross of the highest degree……………
peanut gallery?
So that would make you Howdy Doody?
CB, that is news to me. Phil showed up at camp early last year and was in phenomenal shape; early in ST last year, he looked great. So, I’m having a hard time reconciling this fact with what you’re saying now (not saying you are wrong, it’s just puzzling)….I’m not blaming Joba for his tendonitis, by the way – what pitcher doesn’t get tendonitis? AS to Phil, he tore a hamstring and sprained an ankle – does that happen due to being out of shape? Certainly not the ankle – and lots of players tear hamstrings. Just to clarify again, I never once and will not ever get on Joba because he got injured.
JPB1973 The only way I would take Wells would be if Hughes Joba Montero and Jackson were not going back to Toronto.
wells does stink his numbers are awful and this is 2 years in a row and he is no teenager.. he is a albatross of the highest degree……………
——————————————————
Vernon Wells will be 31 years old in December.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6327
On the other hand I would take Rios then I would only let them pick one off the list of Joba or Montero. Rios is not great and he is still owed a ton of money.
hughes never had an attitude problem or was hard to coach from everything i have read so it is not exactly the same.
he was always very nice,polite & humble.
“that is news to me. Phil showed up at camp early last year and was in phenomenal shape; early in ST last year, he looked great. So, I’m having a hard time reconciling this fact with what you’re saying now (not saying you are wrong, it’s just puzzling)….”
Betsy,
To be clear – I never said that or believed it. I’m just saying that was one of the thing people were speculating about and dumping on hughes about.
Sure he worked very hard (probably too hard) in the off season but it’s not like a lot of fans care.
He was awful. He was constantly hurt and labeled injury prone (and most fans didn’t care why – that was just an excuse according to them). He didn’t throw in the mid to upper 90′s and he was nothing more an an overrated prospect.
People said all sorts of things. And they would have been happy to trade him.
It’s really very similar to what’s happening to Joba right now.
He’s being treated the same way Phil was last year.
I’m sure many of the people who now love phil and can’t stand joba were the same ones last year who hated phil and were gaga about Joba.
It’s really not too different.
JPB1973 The only way I would take Wells would be if Hughes Joba Montero and Jackson were not going back to Toronto.
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Thats the general idea! It is common for one team to acquire a talented player by taking on the contract of a player on that team who is overpriced. Instead of sending talent to that team you take a player with a bad contract instead make it equal. In this case we’d trade for Halladay and take Wells to make it even…only we probably would have to give them some low level talent (Melky Cabrera & Ivan Nova/Edwar Nunez should do the trick).
“he was always very nice,polite & humble.”
Ok. Who cares. Matt Garza was thought of as surly and uncoachable when he was on the Twins so they dumped him. Garza got into a fight with his catcher in full public view last year with Tampa.
How’d that work out for the Twins?
Garza is now the Rays best pitcher.
And he’s not real polite or humble.
Many yankee fans kneel at the alter of Josh Beckett’s incomparable greatness.
There’s a nice guy. Humble, polite, EXTREMELY coachable when he was 23.
There is one very, very obvious reason to prefer Hughes to Joba which I haven’t seen mentioned here:
Joba now has a history of shoulder injury.
While Hughes has an injury history of his own, none of them concern his arm.
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That’s a good point. Didn’t even think about it.
That’s true, CB…….as I’ve said before, I’m not too high on Yankeee fans – we eat our own.
Forget Phil for a moment, though – if Joba is uncoachable like SJ has suggested, I do think that’s a problem.
Look, everyone knows that Phil Hughes is softer than an over-cooked Easy Mac, let’s just be thankful he’s finally taken a wise teammate’s choice words to heart.
If someone has talent, you deal with the prima-donna attributes. They aren’t dealing Joba just because of his attitude.
It’s a business, and businesses are about money. Halladay will be dealt to whomever relieves the Jays (who are between owners) of the most payroll. I really think it’s that simple. The money involved will trump the players that go in return.
I say Yanks should go for Halladay and Rios. Not Wells.
rconn23 July 16th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Gammons also said the Red Sox wouldn’t trade Penny unless they can get a top prospect like Justin Smoak.
His credibility sinks every day. It really is a joke at this point.
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What team would be stupid enough to give away a top prospect for an over the hill oft injured Brad Penny.
Interesting!
Next year the Yankees will lose approximately $52M off the 2009 Payroll if they trade Swisher and let the FA go:
Johnny Damon $13M
Hideki Matsui $13M
Xavier Nady $6.55M
Andy Pettitte $10M (Incentives or $4.5M)
Nick Swisher $5.4M
Jose Molina $2.125M
Eric Hinske $1.5M
Also, after 2011, the Yanks lose Igawa’s $4M
So by my estimation the Yankees would be sitting at about $176M on 40 Man roster. If they add Wells & Halladay it would go to $213M which includes salary upgrades scheduled. I have the 2009 Salary per COTTS at $214M now. There seems to be room for these guys (Wells & Halladay) IMO.
Are we making an assumption that Joba is uncoachable because there haven’t been results from the coaching?
I mean, it does take time to assimilate change. Perhaps he is working on things and the results aren’t there yet.
Apparently he was coachable before.
I will believe that he may have let his conditioning go a bit in this off-season. Between his own DUI, whatever other personal things were going on, plus he was making some personal appearances, he may have let it go a bit. It happens. Not good, but it happens. I wouldn’t give up on the guy so easily.
It’s frustrating, annoying, disappointing, name your emotion, but I wouldn’t say Joba’s at the bottom of the scrap heap yet, and I’m not comfortable making grand statements about the state of his being.
Season series don’t mean all that much. Remember in 2007 when the Yankees swept the Indians twice? Didn’t matter in October.
Season series don’t mean all that much. Remember in 2007 when the Yankees swept the Indians twice? Didn’t matter in October.
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Agreed, doesnt mean a thing
Dorreen,
Wonderful post about Joba and the naysayers. Yes, they loved Joba for two years – but have a bad few months – and all the meanness comes out. You covered all aspects of what could be personally bothering Joba this year and did it tastefully.
Some posters have listed the problems that Phil had pitching in the past seasons. Literally, he stunk in 2007. Pitched while he was injured which did not do him any good or the team. Darn, I keep forgetting to look at what year Phil entered the Yankee system, 05, 06.
The point I am trying to make is that Phil has been in the Yankee system longer than Joba. Joba breezed through the minors in 07 and was brought up the end of 07. Phil and Kennedy were back in the minors. Joba has never, ever been sent down. Should have been last year for rehab after returning from DL instead was put back in the pen.
Joba did/does shine. No one can deny that. He was doing great last year. He beat Beckett in Boston 1-0. (Molina catching) In that game he walked 1, didn’t allow a runner past second base and retired his last 10 batters, 5 on strikeouts. The week before he went 6 2/3 innings in a 10-0 win over Pittsburgh.
This year, again against Boston, gave up four runs in the 1st inning, then proceeded to strike out 12 batters (still team high) and could have continued but was taken out. Lost the game. Detroit, struck out Michael Cabrera with the bases loaded. He and Posada fell all over themselves complimenting one another. Joba won the first game to end that bad slump and w/in the same time frame pitched a so-so game that was won. There have been some good times this season. Some of you just plain choose to forget it.
I have heard Joba’s interviews and they have been very articulate. It is only in the past 2 interviews that he has been an angry person. What highly compettive person wouldn’t be. But all people remember all those two interviews and not the others. Remember AJ also was hissy in an interview. NO ONE IS PERFECT!
a. can’t speak to his conditioning as I was not personally there and neither was anyone on this board.
b. attitude – no one in recent years has hit or been hit by the media as much as Joba. Those of you who live in NY area know more about this than those of us not in the area. Does he do appearances? Are they charity related? Team related? Do you know.
c. uncoachable – again none of us are there. I would hazard a guess you are relying on SJ44′s expertise. Some one pointed out earlier – how do you know that was SJ or the person who impersonates him. I posted last week to SJ that he was hot and cold on Joba.
Final point: Joba fully deserves the chances that Phil was given by management to “right” himself. Remember how long each has been in the system. This should not be a contest between Joba and Phil. Think of it as development of two pitchers for the top of the rotation for the future of the Yankees. Unless, of course, there is another “flavor” of the month next year.