Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jul 24, 2009 
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The Yankees waited out the rain and extended their win streak by beating Oakland.
As the trade deadline draws closer, the Yankees are a little thin with their rotation. Brian Cashman claims a trade will be tough.
Chien-Ming Wang got a second opinion on his sore shoulder and a third is coming.This notebook also has updates on Brian Bruney, Andrew Brackman, Damaso Marte and a unique one-hitter in the minors.
The stats for Brackman: 1-11 with a 6.72 ERA in 18 starts in low A ball. He has struck out 79 over 85.2 innings. But he also has walked 64, thrown 22 wild pitches and given up 89 hits.
Can the Yankees trade him to the Knicks? Maybe David Lee can pitch.
if you think the Yankees will NOT trade for a SP, you are living under a rock.
Just want to reiterate some quotes last night from our readers, before Tex’s homerun:
“Sabathia has zero, the same as Cano’s brain”
“Excellent game by CC tonight. Preview of the rest of the season.”
“you think CC will be just fine SJ44, 1-3 with 7.92 ERA in the playoffs doesn’t seem fine. I have no faith in him once the games mean anything”
“And that is why Cano will never be great.”
“CC is pedestrian, and the Yanks pull the usual act against a 22 yr old pitcher. Pretty much ballgame.”
Ugh.
Melky for Washburn ?
yes/no?
If we dropped that much on Brackman, and how poorly hes playing…..you would think we’d have Nardi Contreras living at his home already. This guy has been a bust so far. 1-11?? Ouch.
the bigger guys sometimes take longer to develop see Johnson, Randy *not saying he will be RJ, obviously*
Somebody yesterday suggested that Brackman be called up when Joba goes to the bullpen.
I understand that Joba has an innings limit and might have to go to the BP at some point this season.
The rest of what he said I did not understand.
Cashman better grab someone
1- With Jobas innings climbing , Wang Hurt , and Pettite and Mitre rounding out the rotation. That Scares me. and what happens if God forbid someone gets hurt.
2- Leave Aceves and Hughes alone ! . The Bullpen is on LOCK DOWN. Don’t mess with a good thing.
How long did it take Randy Johnson to become great? I’m not worried about Andrew Brackman at this point in time. Man it has to suck to be a Yankees prospect.
Vincent July 24th, 2009 at 8:32 am
How long did it take Randy Johnson to become great? I’m not worried about Andrew Brackman at this point in time. Man it has to suck to be a Yankees prospect.
=============
Yes, it must suck big time, especially when you’re sitting on a 4.5 million dollar bonus.
brackman is coming off TJ surgery…if he is 1-11 next year, then be concerned. By mid-next season to the end of it, we should be able to see if brackman is going to be anything significant.
at this point, touching the bullpen doesn’t seem the right way to go…aceves isn’t going to be as effective as a starter. and to get hughes stretched out at this point is probably something the yanks arent going to want to do until next year when they put him back in the rotation.
the best bet is that the yanks trade for a pitcher. im not big on washburn, i would take him, but seattle isnt ready to trade and would want a lot for washburn.
i rather bite the bullet and trade some prospects (jackson, mcallister) for cliff lee.
we arent getting doc.
Brackman was a gamble that may eventually pay off, but the early returns are obviously not good. They aren’t worried about results this year, they just want to build him, but I would want to defend that signing to the bosses.
If the news on Wang is really bad (surgery needed) they might get more aggressive about Halladay or Lee because they would be addressing the need for a starter this season and next. I’m sure one hesitation about making a move is the 2010 committment, but is Wang is looking at surgery that’s less of a concern.
Another factor is Joba’s limit and is he can only make 8-10 more starts then someone other than Mitre needs to take those extra turns.
If either CC or Burnett gets hurt at some point this season, you’ll need to put Hughes into the rotation.
You can get a back-end starter now before the deadline, but you’ll still need him if one of those guys goes down.
i rather bite the bullet and trade some prospects (jackson, mcallister) for cliff lee.
- Me too
Oops, my bad – it was SJ who posited that theory about Phil…..
There’s no point in debating Phil to the pen. Those fans who think he shoud stay where he is believe his ceiling is limited as a starter and no one will convince them otherwise. It doesn’t matter – Phil wants to be a starter and the Yankees want him to be one. He filled a need this year, that is all.
This “he loves being a reliever” stuff is being way overblown. Phil has a great attitude, so he went into the pen being open-minded. It’s great that he loves it and is being diplomatic, but he loves being a starter – there was just no point in repeating it all the time. He’s saying this stuff about being in part reliever because he’s not the type to compain…..(not that he would – I do believe he likes the role, just not to the extent people think).
The guy who said Brackman should be called up was CLEARLY being sarcastic.
Brackman has been a disaster so far. And on the chance he does happen to amount to something, then the Yankees have a gun to their heads because if he isn’t in the majors by the beginning of the 2012 season, they can (and probably will) lose him to another team. At this point that doesn’t appear to be a concern!
YankeePankee
July 24th, 2009 at 2:03 am
Greetings.
The Yanks have too many middle relievers in the minors and not enough depth (mostly due to injuries) for starters ready to help the big team.
Why not start stretching out some relievers at AAA and AA who have more than two good pitches and make them starting pitchers?
Melancon (now with changeup)? Robertson? Claggett? Sanchez? others???
Regards.
———————————————————-
here is one of the all time great LoHud suggestions for Yankee management, take a bunch of pitchers who can’t even get outs regularly in small doses and make them starters.
actually, the Yankees have the solution, they are going to stretch out Nick Swisher and have him fill the rotation spot on days when he isn’t playing right field. That will also give Hinske and Gardner more playing time and please the blog even more.
Here are some facts: if the Rays play .667 baseball the rest of the way (highly, highly unlikely) they win 94 games. For the Yankees to win 95, they need to go 37-30. I’m not too worried about the playoffs or the Rays this year, if the rest of you want to be concerned it’s your anxiety…
One week to go before the trading deadline. The rumors will be hot and heavy and many by analysts that don’t have a clue what Cashman’s thoughts are.
The thoughts by Gammons, Heyman, Olney, Sherman, et al are guesswork and pure speculation.
The only real information that Gammons spews is what he’s given by his guitar playing pal, Theo Epstein.
There’s actually probably not a single starting pitching prospect in baseball who loves the idea of being a reliever simply because the change in career paths could cost a guy up to 100 million dollars over the course of their career.
Betsy, this is something we agree on about Hughes. Plus, why would he want to potentially give up about $100M in career income (the difference between a closer contract and a top starters) by staying in the bullpen.
If he is no better than a #4 or #5 starter next year there is reason for this conversation, but right now you put him in the rotation for 20 starts and see what happens. My guess is that he will excel.
If you want to speculate on trade possibilities first look at the standings. Take the worst teams and look at their most expensive starter.
That’s the trade market. Not good young starters on bad teams, and not solid starters on playoff contenders. Right now it’s Lee and Halladay. The guys guys who could really liven things up are Danny Haren and Jake Peavey, but there’s no indication Arizona is shopping Haren and Peavy is hurt.
rumor has it Mike Francessa is a sucker for guys with cornrolls who play acoustic guitar, and he loves Bronson Arroyo
Brackman’s numbers aren’t something that should be reported in a blog entry without any understanding of where and what he’s come from, his physicality, etc.
He’s huge and raw, reasonably new to pitching, coming off Tommy John surgery.
He also throws 100 mph (sits at 95) and has a phenomenal breaking pitch.
Instead of posting dumb stats, why don’t you actually do some research. THEN post the stats, but qualify them. I can find his stats easily enough. Why not get some sort of insider comment on his progress? What you have there is pretty uninspiring.
With the Yanks position right now(playoff-bound), they will be very reluctant to give up anybody from the 25 man roster unless the player coming back to the team fills that position. So I don’t think Melky for Washburn works. It also seems that Seattle overvalues Washburn too much.
The guy I would look at is Meche from the Royals. He would be fine as a 4 or 5. KC is way out of it right now. Meche makes a good sized paycheck, and even if they think they can compete in 2 years, he probably wouldn’t be in their plans for that time frame. I think we should be able to get him w/o giving up somebody from the 25-man, or Ajax/Montero.
Hughes is not going back to the rotation this year under any circumstances. No way on earth they’d risk his health like that.
Igawa starts before Hughes moves. Aceves starts before Hughes moves. Clemens comes out of retirement before Hughes moves. Pavano returns before Hughes moves.
First off, as Nick in SF has posted numerous times, my point about Hughes and his background was this…..
Some guys get their toughness from their backgrounds. Hughes’s background was not conducive for obtaining the toughness needed at this level so he was going to have to find it elsewhere.
If you are going to quote me, at least do it accurately.
As far as the other “quote” GF dug up by me re: Hughes, that was not me. That was an imposter.
I have no problems backing up what I say on here. I can’t backup what trolls say or what someone misrepresents what I say. That ain’t on me.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
“The guy I would look at is Meche from the Royals. He would be fine as a 4 or 5. KC is way out of it right now. Meche makes a good sized paycheck, and even if they think they can compete in 2 years, he probably wouldn’t be in their plans for that time frame”
Mark: one would think. However, the few reports which have been made (regarding KC players at the trade date) say he is not available.
I like Meche tho
“Cashman believes pitchers will be available via waiver deals in August as teams are unlikely to make claims and risk the financial obligation.”
Is this the approach or the bluff?
Sounds like something Stealth Cashman might say.
SJ:
Melky for Washburn? yes or no
“Melky for Washburn? yes or no”
But then we’d have a full 9 innings every game of damon or swisher in the outfield. Frankly, that makes me never want to get rid of melky or gardner lol
vinny-b (keep Montero)
July 24th, 2009 at 8:56 am
SJ:
Melky for Washburn? yes or no
=====
Do you have any idea about the construction of the team you root for?
Is Washburn going to play the OF, too?
Just…Hunh???
MG, giving Phil a timeline to be more than a #4 or 5 starter next year is not something I would do. IMO, as with most really talented youngster, the pen is simply not an option at any point unless he’s a disaster. Phil gets more than a year to prove himself as a top notch starter (which is what you’re asking him to do, be a #3 next year)- it’s not fair to ask him to develop more quickly than others. In my mind, he’s in the pen for this year and that is it.
Another under the radar type move could be for Carmona of the Indians. Reports are that he is doing well in the minors, and could be starting in the majors again in the next week or two. Now, if scouting determines that his big-league stuff just doesn’t exist anymore, then pass, of course. But, if he is regaining form, he could be a nice back-end of the rotation addition.
SJ, I made a mistake – it happens. Also, I said last night that the comment about trading Phil because he was no longer a prospect was NOT you.
Why did CC stop throwing his slider to right handed batters?
That’s a bad trade for both teams. Seattle, only 5.5 games out gives up their # 2 starting pitcher for an average OF they don’t need. The Yankees give up their best defensive OF for an upgrade at one rotation spot.
There’s no reason for Seattle to move Washburn. Now if the Yankees want to take Miguel Batista off their hands they’d be happy to do that. Batista is expensive ($ 9 M this year) but he’s the kind of guy you’d look at for the pen if Aceves has to become a starter.
Another under the radar type move could be for Carmona of the Indians
- Mark i don’t the Yanks can afford to take that gamble.
Let’s see what I can think of off the top of my head:
Free Agent pitchers:
Mark Mulder
Ben Sheets
Paul Byrd
Trade:
John Garland
Jarrod Washburn (maybe)
Kevin Millwood (maybe)
Carl Pavano (no thank you)
Cliff Lee/Roy Halladay (never happen)
Ross Ohlendorf (?) (Wouldn’t that be ironic.)
Zach Duke
bodhisattva
Be fair. Pete has talked about Brackman’s history many times on this blog. Regular readers don’t need the rundown on his history.
“Brett Tomko, who was designated for assignment on Tuesday, stopped by the clubhouse before the game to drop off a painting he did of Phil Hughes. Tomko is an accomplished artist who has painted portraits of several teammates in recent years.”
Glad we got rid of that cancer…(rolls eyes)
“There’s no reason for Seattle to move Washburn”
very true, tho some media and knowlegable people like Mike A, keep mentioning it
Betsy, I want Hughes in the rotation for the next 10+ years, I wouldn’t even consider keeping him in the bullpen. What I meant (and the last sentence says I think he will excel in the rotation) unless it was clear that he is no better than a #4 or #5 starter, at which time you consider the closer role for him ultimately.
I’m very big on a long term, stable rotation. I have the feeling (and have had it for most of this season) that Wang faces surgery, a long rehab, and the real probability that he never regains his prior form (one pitch starters rarely, if ever, have long careers). That’s why I want Hughes, Joba and Ace in the rotation unless another guy from the system shows he is better than one of them. Put them with CC and AJ for the next 4-5 years and that issue is resolved plus you have time to develop another starter or two through the system (and these guys can come up through a stint in the ‘pen as well).
Bullpen guys are a dime a dozen and they usually have little consistency from year to year except for the closer. My feeling is that when Mo is ready to turn over the reins you sign a free agent closer, they are much less expensive that rotation guys.
Why do I really want to sign mark mulder to a minor league contract and see if we can salvage anything from his career?
why wouldn’t wang be our #3 starter next season? he’s got 9 months to figure it out now…
Vincent
July 24th, 2009 at 9:07 am
bodhisattva
Be fair. Pete has talked about Brackman’s history many times on this blog. Regular readers don’t need the rundown on his history.
=====
Sorry, I don’t think he knows how to use statistics in a contextually relevant manner.
He’s a reporter – he needs to provide balance, which he never does when it comes to statistics. He is frankly as naive as some of the Fantasy Baseball fanboys – with less understanding of sabermetrics.
You need to qualify Brackman’s numbers – and what he wrote 3 months ago about Brackman may no longer be relevant; it’s pretty clear he has a tired arm, as he’s topping out at 93 now instead of 100, which he was hitting in May.
Since no one on the team seems able to beat CC in Nintendo the Yankees should have some kind of event where he challenges fans to a little Nintendo tournament on the giant screen in the stadium. Maybe have a tournement where the winner gets to play CC and if they beat him they get season tickets or some other neat Yankees related prize. With the HOPE week stuff going on the obvious way to go with this would be to get some kind of distressed kids involved. Of course I thought of this because I would love to get a chance to play some Nintendo with CC or any one of the Yankees but it would make more sense to do it for a good cause as opposed to my personal amusement.
Meche is on the DL with a back injury.
Vinny,
I don’t know why Seattle does that deal. Where does Melky play in Seattle? They have Gutierrez, a better player than Melky, in CF.
I’m not a big Washburn fan. For the money, he’s nothing special. Pitches well against the Yankees for 5 innings and then they usually begin to get to him.
He’s servicable but, if you trade Melky, I don’t think Gardner can play everyday.
The Yankees have in essence a successful “platoon” in CF because the two guys are basically both 4th OF’s.
You upset that and play one of them everyday, it weakens the position, IMO.
“why wouldn’t wang be our #3 starter next season? he’s got 9 months to figure it out now…”
If he needs shoulder surgery he’ll be out for probably the next full year, so you can’t rely on him next season
“very true, tho some media and knowlegable people like Mike A, keep mentioning it”
“Knowledgable” people in the media sometimes get that reputation because some of their guesses and rumors turn out right, not necessarily because the always know what’s going on. It’s also very easy to say (and something I’ve seen a lot this offseason) something like, “There’s still the possibility that the Mariners will look to trade Washburn but if they really feel they can challenge the Angels for the division this will not happen.”
It’s kind of like the weatherman saying there’s a 50% chance of rain…you can’t be wrong with that.
You can’t spin Brackman’s struggles in a positive light.
Lots of guys come back from surgery and aren’t this bad.
Doesn’t mean he can’t or won’t turn it around because that happens a lot with big guys.
However, he’s been much, much worse than anticipated and it will take some time to get things going in the right direction with him.
The positive? He’s healthy now and is a very hard worker. Two important things in his favor.
No for the Melky/Washburn trade—-we would have no CF depth…
There is not too much out there in terms of SP….
Any chance we make a run for Dan Haren??
“You can’t spin Brackman’s struggles in a positive light.
…
The positive? He’s healthy now and is a very hard worker. Two important things in his favor.”
Some flip flopping there, no?
“I don’t know why Seattle does that deal. Where does Melky play in Seattle? They have Gutierrez, a better player than Melky, in CF”
you right. My bad, i had forgot Gutierrez. Last year, Seattle had wanted Garnder or Melky. However, that was before the impressive play of Gutierrez
If Wang needs shoulder surgery again, he has a better chance of being non-tendered than being in the rotation in 2010.
Its why folks shouldn’t get carried away annointing Hughes as the next big thing in the pen. He’s going to be needed in the rotation next year.
With Andy probably retiring, you can’t get by in CC and AJ alone.
Joba and Phil are going to ahve to be important parts of the rotation in 2010.
>Why did CC stop throwing his slider to right handed batters?
CC threw 10 sliders last night, and 6 of them to RHH.
With Wang’s short and long term future in question, we are one step closer to losing Jesus Montero in a blockbuster trade for a pitcher.
Since we really can’t afford to lose Joba or Hughes or any pitcher right now, Montero is our last real trade chip.
Might not be Halladay, but there will be a trade for a starting pitcher.
No, not flip flopping at all. He’s healthy and a hard worker.
His results this year have been awful.
I’m not defending his results. That’s my point.
Its a good thing we got CC and AJ this offseason… Imagine not having AJ:
CC
Pettitte
Joba
Hughes
Mitre
Ouch
They aren’t trading Montero. Cashman has told every team that has called on him, he’s untouchable.
Wang’s situation doesn’t affect Montero at all.
Any chance we make a run for Dan Haren??
I haven’t heard anything on Haren. but the D-Backs will ask for a big time package including Montero and Ajax
SJ44
July 24th, 2009 at 9:16 am
You can’t spin Brackman’s struggles in a positive light.
Lots of guys come back from surgery and aren’t this bad.
Doesn’t mean he can’t or won’t turn it around because that happens a lot with big guys.
However, he’s been much, much worse than anticipated and it will take some time to get things going in the right direction with him.
The positive? He’s healthy now and is a very hard worker. Two important things in his favor.
=====
Who on here was spinning anything?
Whose post are you referring to?
He’s a project w/ high risk/high reward implications.
His numbers alone don’t tell his story, so it’s idiotic to post them without a qualifier. His being healthy is the only thing that’s particularly relevant right now.
developing young pitchers is a crap shoot, that’s why so many get drafted. Some of them struggle for a long time and all of a sudden a light goes on. Phil Coke did that last year and wound up in the majors. Brackman has the tools but we won’t know if he has a chance to make it until he starts becoming dominant in the minors in a number of consecutive appearances and begins the climb up the ladder. Until then even looking at his stats isn’t going to provide any enlightenment.
Congrats to the NYY and to Phil Hughes on another good win and PH’s 1st save! I enjoyed his postgame too. He seems like a humble guy, with a sense of humor. I’m looking forward to watching Phil and Joba anchor the NYY rotation for years to come. They, along with some of the other young guys,make for a very bright future for the team!
With Wangs Injury. thats why i think its important to trade for someone like a Cliff Lee. He’s a very good pitcher that can pitch this year . and next .
Just incase Wang can’t pitch most or all of next season.
# Pel July 24th, 2009 at 9:19 am
>Why did CC stop throwing his slider to right handed batters?
CC threw 10 sliders last night, and 6 of them to RHH.
I thought that was his strikeout pitch. Shouldn’t he be throwing more? It seems to me he is throwing the change a lot more.
one quick note on Xeroderma Pigmentosum and I’m done for a bit…
Dean Koontz, who’s an author I enjoy reading on occasion, has a series (3) of books with the protagonist named Christopher Snow, a person with Xeroderma Pigmentosum…I’ve made it through the first book (Fear Nothing) and about half way through the second (Seize the Night) and they’re worth a look. I believe the 3rd has not been finished at this point. Like most Koontz material they’re a bit far fetched at times and feature a dog heavily involved in the plot (something I usually enjoy in his books).
MG
July 24th, 2009 at 9:22 am
developing young pitchers is a crap shoot, that’s why so many get drafted. Some of them struggle for a long time and all of a sudden a light goes on. Phil Coke did that last year and wound up in the majors. Brackman has the tools but we won’t know if he has a chance to make it until he starts becoming dominant in the minors in a number of consecutive appearances and begins the climb up the ladder. Until then even looking at his stats isn’t going to provide any enlightenment.
=====
Right, the number that stands out is the topping out at 93, a 7 mph drop from May. His delivery is a challenge from pitch to pitch as it is – less velocity can’t be helping, because he may be over compensating. He’s not hurt, though, and that’s a key “stat.”
CC’s slider isn’t his strikeout pitch. His changeup and fastball are./
His slider/breaking ball is his third best pitch.
There is nothing wrong with his pitch selection. Early in games, as is the case with a lot of pitchers, his location has been a little up in the zone. That’s why you see teams swinging early in counts in the first and second inning against him.
Once he gets in sync, he’s much tougher to hit.
If GB7 has seen him down there, it would be interesting to hear what he saw.
You out there?
I really hate the term “flip-flopping.” It implies that a person changes their mind for no reason.
Most intelligent people will look at the facts and circumstances and form an opinion based on that. If the facts and circumstances change, so might the opinion. Personally, I’d rather be a seen as a “flip-flopper” than someone who refuses to acknowledge that a stuation has changed and keeps singing the same tune regardless.
As far as Brackman and most other low-level prospects, they get far too much attention. It’s silly to call the guy a bust at this point. Things may not be progressing as well as hoped, but to say the Yankees haven’t gotten what they expected out of him, I don’t know. They knew he’d be a work in progress for a while and I wouldn’t think they expect him to have be an impact player for a while. He may prove to have been an expensive experiment, but I really wish some of these prospects could develop in obscurity.
I have to say I was happily surprised to learn the Yankees won last night’s game. I was too tired to last past the 2nd inning and called it a night. At that point, they were losing 2-0 and “Vinny from Jersey” was looking pretty good. Everyone who stayed up to watch was rewarded nicely. 7 and counting. Hmmm. Girardi said he’d grow a Swishhawk if they get to 10 in a row. I’m kind of ambivalent about that one, any one else??? (I just can’t picture it, and frankly, when I try it’s a scary, scary vision!)
Seems like the Yankees have finally gotten past the “pitcher they haven’t seen” problems. That shows their level of confidence.
And as for Cano, looks like ARod has passed him the baton at plate with RISP. Yikes.
i was just picking at you SJ…
I understand your point but found those particular comments to be at odds with one another. Saying the guy has pitched terrible BUT he’s a hard working kid who still has a shot IS taking the positive out of a situation and I think the way most people were leaning earlier in the discussion.
I want a real pitcher: Lee, Halladay or Haren.
Some people on here need to wake up and face reality about Hughes….We are now blasting Mark Feinsand of the Daily News because he dare to say Hughes should stay in the pen….you know what, he is right about everything that he said about Hughes and the Yankee organization knows it….look at all the starters we are talking about to trade for… you can find decent starters anyday but to find that someone who has the makeup for a closer is hard to find….Question to all on here if Hughes goes back into the rotation next year who is in the 8th inning and closing games when Mo is out….I want names…So when Mo leaves we can get a closer like Steve Farr…you older fans will get that one…on this blog is all about the individuate player and not whats best about the team…..Tell Jeter Hughes is better as a 4th starter then as the 8th inning guy and see what he says
I realize a lot of what I’m reading lately has to do with the current financial crisis, but your post is another story
thank you for sharing this!
yeah Doreen, flip flopping was a poor choice of words on my part…I should have said the statements were a juxtaposition (sp) or at odds with one another. I just found it humurous that he said you can’t take the positive out of the situation but he immediately took the positive out of the situation…
“Hughes as a starter this year 5.45 era
Hughes as a reliever this year 0.74 era
“I dont think it is crazy that some people think he is a reliever and the future closer. There is a huge difference with how he is pitching in the same season as a starter and a reliever.”
Except for one bad inning in Baltimore, Hughes’ ERA as a starter this year is 3.47. Does one bad inning in the career of a 22-year-old justify a permanent assignment to the bullpen?
What’s next? If Hughes has a bad inning as the 8th-inning setup guy, should he be sent back to AA? And if he has a bad inning there, what’s the next stop, skid row?
Mo is signing a 7 year extension…Hughes ain’t closing.
“Tell Jeter Hughes is better as a 4th starter then as the 8th inning guy and see what he says”
What Jeter would say is: “It’s all about winning a ring in October. Whatever Girardi and Mr. Cashman feel is the best for the team, is what they should do.”
I can come to the Bronx if you need me.
Haren isn’t on the market. D’Backs ownership has said publicly neither Haren nor Upton will be traded. They just got 150 million dollars in a new capital raise so money is not an issue for them in terms of moving guys. Halladay and Lee with cost them Chamberlain and either Jackson or Montero.
There is real cost to “real” pitchers.
You don’t trade 2 A list prospects for Cliff Lee. He’s not that kind of pitcher.
Halladay, you do. However, if ownership is keeping JP from moving him to Boston or NY, there is nothing you can do about it.
At this point, unless minds change, its probably a smaller and not bigger pitching move for the Yankees at the trade deadline.
Can you guys help me out-
I am currently fighting with a friend who does not think the HOPE event the Yankees did last night is particularly special since “all teams do charity”.
I tried to explain that most players do not play with sick kids at 2 am, but that argument is not working. HELP!
Sports Illustrated current issue says the Yankees called about Huston Street and Heath Bell at some point this year and were turned down.
Hughes will remain in the pen.
We will have to trade for a starter and we’re not getting Lee, Haren or Halladay without trading one of Joba, Hughes or Montero.
At this point, we can’t afford to part with Joba or Hughes or any pitching on the roster so…
process of elimination.
Uncle Elseworth, have you had any more premonitions/dreams about that mysterious pitcher (who might have been wearing red) actually is?
The problem with “projecting” Hughes as a closer is twofold:
1. Mariano isn’t close to being done yet. He may play past 2010. Wouldn’t you if you could still dominate and make 15 million a year at your job?
2. Lost beneath the excitement of Hughes in the pen, we have no idea how he will react when he fails out there. And he will fail. They ALL do, even Mariano.
That’s when you find out if someone has what it takes to be a great closer.
Instead of putting labels and predicting the future with the kid, just enjoy what he’s doing right now. The future will take care of itself.
“Can you guys help me out-
I am currently fighting with a friend who does not think the HOPE event the Yankees did last night is particularly special since “all teams do charity”.
I tried to explain that most players do not play with sick kids at 2 am, but that argument is not working. HELP!”
If they can’t grasp it they sound like a lost cause. Either that or they know it bothers you that they disagree and are just doing it to get under your skin.
Either way I’d say just let them be…
BD
July 24th, 2009 at 9:35 am
“Hughes as a starter this year 5.45 era
Hughes as a reliever this year 0.74 era
“I dont think it is crazy that some people think he is a reliever and the future closer. There is a huge difference with how he is pitching in the same season as a starter and a reliever.”
Except for one bad inning in Baltimore, Hughes’ ERA as a starter this year is 3.47. Does one bad inning in the career of a 22-year-old justify a permanent assignment to the bullpen?
What’s next? If Hughes has a bad inning as the 8th-inning setup guy, should he be sent back to AA? And if he has a bad inning there, what’s the next stop, skid row?
===
Yup. I never realized how people so misuse statistics until I started participating on these forums.
I can’t even get into this discussion, because it’s just so mind numbing. Phil Hughes will be a starter. If he doesn’t go back into the rotation next year, then the columnists are running the Yankees. I have nothing more to say about this.
>I thought that was his strikeout pitch.
>Shouldn’t he be throwing more?
>It seems to me he is throwing the change a lot more.
2 of CC’s 4 strikeouts were finished with a slider.
“Instead of putting labels and predicting the future with the kid, just enjoy what he’s doing right now. The future will take care of itself.”
I’m on board with this…trying to just enjoy the ride has made watching games this season much more enjoyable…the fact that we’re winning alot helps as well.
How about Livan?
He can eat innings and just about any AA player the Yanks give the Mets in return could go immediately into their starting line-up.
“Can you guys help me out-
I am currently fighting with a friend who does not think the HOPE event the Yankees did last night is particularly special since “all teams do charity”.
I tried to explain that most players do not play with sick kids at 2 am, but that argument is not working. HELP!”
Whenever anyone takes time out of their lives to do charity and help others out, it’s special. Tell your friend to stop being a grinch
TRADES: YANKS AND BREWERS TO SCOUT JUSTIN DUCHSCHERER
Baseball Prospectus: Duke just might be Pedro in disguise
Although Duchscherer certainly put together a stellar 2008 campaign, his 2009 merits are comparable to those of Pedro Martinez, in the “don’t count on me, but I could be a bonus” vein. A pitching-starved team such as the Brewers needs a legitimate rotational upgrade, not someone who might be able to make five starts in the final two months with an equal chance of being relegated to bullpen duty, if he can return, regardless of his relatively cheap salary. Duchscherer makes sense if he is acquired after the move to solidify the pitching staff, not as the solidifying move itself. – Eric Seidman
__________________________________________
What would it cost? Would it be worth it for some September starts – October surplus arms? In the mix next year?
If Wang’s career might be ending, I want a top shelf starter to replace him. I hate the names I’m hearing here. We are the Yankees. C’mon people.
“Whenever anyone takes time out of their lives to do charity and help others out, it’s special. Tell your friend to stop being a grinch”
Yeah, on that note, there’s really no point in arguing that what the Yankees are doing is “more special” then what any other team does for charity. It’s all gravy
Hughes and Joba will be more valuable next year as starting pitchers. Pettitte will probably not return, the new YS scares him, and who knows what will happen w/ Wang.
I could live w/ Girardi getting a swish hawk if it meant winning 10 games…it seemed to work last year for the Rays and Joe Maddon.
What Jeter would say is: “It’s all about winning a ring in October. Whatever Girardi and Mr. Cashman feel is the best for the team, is what they should do.
—
Well Mr Jeter has not won a ring in 9 year and i don’t think he wants to see Bruney in the 8th as the set up man…Really what more important a 3rd/4th starter or a dominant late innings pitcher….a lot of you guys are spoiled with Mo success and take that role for granted…Ask the Phillies who always could use a starter…Should they take Ryan Madison out of his role because the fans think he could be a better starter…Without Madison do the Phillies win a world series last year…. Remember CC and AJ are signed for years to come and they have much better stuff the Hughes…the best Hughes could be is a 3rd starter and there are a lot of those in baseball
“Brackman was a gamble that may eventually pay off, but the early returns are obviously not good. ”
———–
exactly, Brackman is the definition of high risk high reward prospect.
It’s too early to judge, but just because there is underlying talent doesn’t mean it will come to fruition.
But for the Yankees, it’s ok to swing for the fences with some of their draft picks.
Stop with the “We are the Yankees” nonsense.
They have two kids in Hughes and Chamberlain who potentially be top end guys for years. Add them to CC and AJ and that’s 4 pitchers teams would KILL to have on their staff.
Its not about assembling a team of “names”. That hasn’t worked.
Its about assembling a TEAM.
They must be doing something right, given their position in the standings.
“I really hate the term “flip-flopping.” It implies that a person changes their mind for no reason.
Most intelligent people will look at the facts and circumstances and form an opinion based on that. If the facts and circumstances change, so might the opinion.”
————-
Doreen,
beautifully said
Check out these splits on Kei Igawa:
LHB 1.80
“Remember CC and AJ are signed for years to come and they have much better stuff the Hughes…the best Hughes could be is a 3rd starter and there are a lot of those in baseball”
Being the #3 starter in the Yankees rotation with guys like CC and AJ ahead of you does not = being a #3 starter on most other teams. If a guy is good enough to be a #2 (not saying Hughes is or isn’t) but he happens to be the #3 because 2 guys are slightly better than he is worth way more than say, the Pirates’ #3 starter.
>Really what more important a 3rd/4th starter or a dominant late innings pitcher
Bug Repellent
Hold that thought, hit send by accident
No blue light specials please.
Hokiehill -
My flip-flopping comment wasn’t aimed at you specifically. It’s just a pet peeve of mine (one of far too many!
).
The Yankees bullpen is very strong right now and I don’t think you can take Hughes out right now. Look what happened 2 weeks ago when the Yankees pulled Aceves to start and did not have him for a few days of the Angels series.
Cashman says it won’t be easy to get a starter but he won’t ever come out and say what he is working on. I expect he will come up with someone by the trading deadline.
SJ, exactly correct. Build the rotation after CC and AJ from within with your 5 best pitchers in the rotation. Use the bullpen to bring along the development of young pitchers with with a top closer and a couple of reliable vets. That’s the blueprint for another dynasty in the Bronx. It’s so simple…
Is Melky Cabrera seriously enough to trade for Washburn?
I would think Seattle would hang up on Cashman and tell him never to call again.
Kei Igawa splits
ERA IP H R ER BB K
vs Left 1.80 30 18 6 6 1 27
vs Right 4.12 74.1 82 38 42 24 52
Could we shop him as a left handed specialist while eating his contract?
“My flip-flopping comment wasn’t aimed at you specifically. It’s just a pet peeve of mine (one of far too many! ).”
I don’t really like the word either but I wasn’t and am still not confident in my spelling of “juxtaposition” so I went with flip flopping…
not to go against the terms of board posting, but I think the whole John Kerry/political use of flip-flopping is really what killed it for me.
Still no one on here has said if Hughes is in the rotation next year who is the 8t inning guy and closing games if Mo can’t…i want to hear the suggestions…
Nothing in the world more overrated than the “bridge to the closer.” Would the Phillies have won the World Series without Ryan Madson? I don’t know, but I’m pretty sure Ryan Madson wasn’t the key piece. I’d bet he was the 14th-17th most valuable player on that team. There are plenty of guys in the world who are putrid as starters (see his 2006), but who have enough stuff to make it through three or four hitters. I have a really hard time believing that the Phillies couldn’t have found someone else to fill that slot.
And I have a really, really hard time believing that four outs is all Hughes is good for.
Build the rotation after CC and AJ from within with your 5 best pitchers in the rotation.
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2 reliable starters is a recipe for disaster. As talented as Hughes + Joba are, they obviously need time. Patience is one thing but we’re talking about years of development and refinement before Hughes and Joba are as reliable as they are talented.
“Still no one on here has said if Hughes is in the rotation next year who is the 8t inning guy and closing games if Mo can’t…i want to hear the suggestions…”
As you said earlier, look at how many back end rotation guys are out there now…any one of those guys could be moved into a relief role just like Phil Phranchise.
CC and AJ have “much better stuff” than Phil Hughes? Sure, they’re in their prime. Have you seen Hughes’ fastball that rides high and in? That’s a devestating fastball even at 94.
If we could have gone back to the start of spring training….That possible trade of Cano for Greinke looks pretty good…then we would have signed Orlando Hudson..Anyone have a DeLorean?
If Zach Duke is truly available, I think its something we should look at. We could get him a lot cheaper than Haladay/Lee and he has a lot of upside and young. Thoughts?
“Kei Igawa
July 24th, 2009 at 9:37 am
I can come to the Bronx if you need me”
pass.
Kei Igawa + new Yankee stadium = homemade nuclear suitcase
“2 reliable starters is a recipe for disaster. As talented as Hughes + Joba are, they obviously need time. Patience is one thing but we’re talking about years of development and refinement before Hughes and Joba are as reliable as they are talented.”
I’m not sure what move we’ll make, but I imagine they won’t be counted on to be more than the #4 and #5 starters next year (which would be a slight bump over them being relied on as the #5 and #6 starters at the start of this season).
Yeah, honestly. I’m sure Aceves or anyone of that caliber could be reasonably good in a setup role. He doesn’t have overpowering velocity, but he throws strikes and he has a defined approach. He keeps the ball low and he throws to bad contact. There are three times as many guys in the AL who match that description as there are viable starters who can give you 17-22 outs a start.
MG July 24th, 2009 at 9:51 am
SJ, exactly correct. Build the rotation after CC and AJ from within with your 5 best pitchers in the rotation.
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SJ wanted Halliday, so I’m not sure why he’s getting on that one guy. Or maybe it was just an impostor???
Acquiring Halliday? Sounds like “building a team of names.”
“Anyone have a DeLorean?”
Every part but the passenger side door.
Cashman has to wrestle with the idea that it’s a bad move to take Hughes and Aceves out of the bullpen for THIS season. The bullpen has become a stable force and there’s no point in disrupting it now.
J.P. Riccardi may want too much for Halladay now but Cliff Lee is a thought with Pettitte possibly not returning after this year. Lee eats innings and having lefthanders in the Stadium has never been a bad idea.
Cleveland might accept a package beginning with Zach McAllister and knowing Montero is not available.
KC wasn’t giving up Greinke. Certainly not when Cano’s value was at its lowest.
IMO
As you said earlier, look at how many back end rotation guys are out there now…any one of those guys could be moved into a relief role just like Phil Phranchise.
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Who….Mitre? Washburn?..Arroyo?…come on that makes no sense at all…I want names of people who can take Hughes role next year…Come on we are all Monday Morning GM’s on here…i want suggestions
take the DeLorean back 2 years and maybe you’ve got a deal
What is IMO? I see it a lot, and have no idea what it stands for…
There’s always impostors when it comes to Sj44 it’s annoying, like I dunno who the guy is at this point either
Who….Mitre? Washburn?..Arroyo?…come on that makes no sense at all…I want names of people who can take Hughes role next year…Come on we are all Monday Morning GM’s on here…i want suggestions”
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McAllister?
we could have had this same discussion last year and not many would have said Phil Hughes.
the point is, you throw some decent arms at the bullpen wall and see which ones stick.
you don’t waste top of the rotation stuff in the bullpen. you surely don’t do it without first seeing if Hughes can be a successful starter.
RMEL, the answer is Phil Coke. He’d be an excellent eighth inning guy. Girardi is so spoiled right now that he’s been able to cast Cokey in a bit of a specialist role, which he is clearly not limited to.
I’m not clear as to why Pettitte’s unavailability for next year has anything to do with Cliff Lee. The team has won 44 of 66 and Lee is a far better pitcher at this point than Pettitte can dream of being. The loss of a league average pitcher isn’t anything to lose sleep over. And, yeah, he’s been better on the road. But he’s also been lucky on the road. BABIP 50 points lower on road than at home.
“Still no one on here has said if Hughes is in the rotation next year who is the 8t inning guy and closing games if Mo can’t…i want to hear the suggestions…”
so what you are saying is that on July 24, 2008 you could predict that Phil Hughes would be the 8th inning?
The rotation has obviously been doing well since the break, but an injury to one of the top 2 puts it in a tailspin.
Plus, I’m not confident that Joba and Pettitte will be that much better than their first-half selves.
I was hoping for Wang, but it looks like a long shot. So I hope Cash can pick up a decent starter that can pitch decently enough and eat some innings.
You all will be pleased to know I officially just triumphed over my friend. He claimed the Yankees throw carnivals at 2am because they can and other teams do not have the resources to because the Yankees have “so much net income every year”
He didn’t realize the Yankees actually operate at a loss almost every year. Hahahahaha. I win!
IMO = in my opinion…IMHO (not seen often here) = in my humble opinion
hey, RMEL, I gave you Aceves as a first option. And I told you why “8th inning guy” is a stupid and overrated concept. Now it’s up to you to justify your rabid interest in the topic.
Phil Coke is OK, but I’m not sure I want him in a high leverage situation against a good hitter. He didn’t exactly acquit himself well in the Baltimore series. Two ace plays at the plate (one on a wild pitch), and a screaming liner DP the next night…was that Markakis?
If Zach Duke is truly available, I think its something we should look at. We could get him a lot cheaper than Haladay/Lee and he has a lot of upside and young. Thoughts?
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Would make sense ….really don’t have to give up as much as for Doc and Lee…. would be a soild 3rd/4th starter….has pitch well this year for a bad team and is 25 years old lefty…Other Pirate would be Maholm…check out this story below
http://slidingintohome.blogspot.com/
There was some dude from Baseball America at Brackman’s start last night. Said he was sitting at 89 with his fastball. Not exactly the 100mph he is probably capable of throwing.
Going back to my idea of Haren….I would rather over pay for a 28 year old who is in his prime, then for a Cliff Lee and Roy H (is would be 33 next year, and cost a lot of money. The Yanks would have to committ almost 300 mill for three guys in their rotation!
speaking of Cano…
there is a new thread
“He didn’t realize the Yankees actually operate at a loss almost every year. Hahahahaha. I win!”
Did your friend actually try to rationalize why the Yankees would be doing an act of charity? lol
this year is this year-Hughes is in the ‘pen, end of conversation. Joba is on an innings limit, hopefully he would be able to start a game in the playoffs if his performance justifies it.
2010 and the following years is a totally different matter. CC and AJ will be around and strong for the long haul. The Yankees have tons of good young arms in the minors and on the major league roster. If Joba and Hughes are the best of them they go in the rotation, there is no reason why some of the other starters in the minors can’t become solid bullpen guys while they are waiting for their chance in the rotation (which could be years or never). Phil Coke was a starter until the end of last year, now he’s bullpen guy. Why are so many of you so afraid that no one else can do a pretty simple job in the ‘pen (get a couple of outs at the end of the game)when the recipe is pretty clear-either have one dominant pitch (Mo) or be a starter with plus stuff who can air it out in the ‘pen for an inning or two (Joba, Phil). Don’t you think there are more prospects available to fill this role next year? If you don’t you are really being shortsighted.
McAllister is in double A and is on the DL with a sore shoulder…so i would not get too high on him just yet…Coke…Almost wet his pants when he was asked to close…i can see it know if he is the guy and blows game next year you guys would be screaming about getting Huston Street…Come on you GM’s do better then Z-Mack and Coke
Here’s the thing about Hughes. He’s finally consistently getting major league hitters out. I think a season in the pen is going to do wonders for him when he gets stretched out for the rotation next year. There’s going to be a lot of growing pains, though, because just as Hughes should start to emerge, Rivera may be on the cusp of retirement. And then where is your closer? Hopefully it’ll be Bruney. But other than him, there’s really no one in the organization. You could make an argument for Melancon, I suppose, but he hasn’t proven anything yet.
Ramey – Traded his Girlfriend to the Pirates for a PTBNL
July 24th, 2009 at 10:08 am
“He didn’t realize the Yankees actually operate at a loss almost every year. Hahahahaha. I win!”
Did your friend actually try to rationalize why the Yankees would be doing an act of charity? lol
****
Yes. LOL. His argument was really “well, the Yankees have the resources to throw carnivals and other teams don’t”
Mine was, “If a team doesn’t have 50K to throw a carnival, they have much bigger problems than charity work”
The Yankees need another starter for sure. Wang is hurt and Joba has 8-10 starts left.
It does not need to be Lee or Halladay; they will cost too much. Cash is not going to make a panic move and sell the farm at this point in the season. If someone else goes down then all bets are off.
The Yankees are in first place and have the 2 high $$ guys doing their job at the top of the rotation.
If Marte can come back effective, I think you’ll see Ace in the rotation from time to time taking up innings Joba can’t give them.
Health is going to dictate what the Yankees do about trading for another starter.
Health is going to dictate what the Yankees do about trading for another starter
- Pat ,
Health already is dictating what the Yankees are going to do. They are inquiring about Lee.
Wang Down. Joba’s Innings . and the Back end of Mitre and Pettite will force Cashmans hand to get a starter.
Hopefully Cash can work his magic and get Lee without giving up Joba or Hughes
Sign Mulder. He’s a lefty and he was a good pitcher at one time. Try to fix him, if he sucks, get rid of him. ala Sidney Ponson.
Matt Holliday traded to Cardinals for Brett Wallace + Some other prospects.
Brackman/Randy Johnson comparisons are a joke (other than their physical size). Compare their stats at their respective ages. Right now Brackman is not cutting it, but give him another year before judging him.
This is taken from RAB:
Baseball American’s Ben Badler was at [Brackman's] game [last night], and tweeted two mini-scouting reports… not good, hopefully it’s just fatigue:
“Brackman 89-91, touched 92 in the 1st inn, cb 74-75, softer bite than in college”
“3rd: more effort, less velo (83-86, hit 89), fewer strikes for brackman. Done after 2.1 IP, 7 R”
What about
Gardner, Kennedy + Alan Horne for Lee?
You give them two young arms, Horne with a short window at 26 already, and an outfielder who could turn into a poorman’s Grady Sizemore. Then..we get Cliff Lee.
I love this team right now – everything about it. The bullpen, the rotation, the lineup, the manager, the front office, everything.
I think that Mitre was serviceable at #5 in his last start and could continue to give us innings for the rest of the year, if needed. He may be older and have little MLB experience, but the guy can throw strikes and he is a groundball pitcher. He’s a good replacement for Chien-Ming Wang on a temporary basis.
Our rotation is amazing. Find me a rotation in baseball that doesn’t have a question mark or two – you can’t. Our #1 and #2 are probably the best 1-2 in baseball and Andy and Joba are a pretty good 3-4 combo. Sure, it would be much, much better if Wang were the real Wang, but he isn’t.
If we have to slot in Aceves, then we have to slot in Aceves. I hope we don’t but it’s something that needs to be considered.
I would trade for Duscherer, to be honest. He may be coming off of injury and be unreliable, but he won’t cost what many others will cost and we do have solutions in house if that doesn’t work.
Realizing I’m going to be abused for saying this, the obvious move is a trade centered around Montero for Halladay.
I know Ricciardi wants a ready Major-League level pitcher for Halladay. With Wang’s injury, the Yanks don’t have one they can afford to part with. They need both Joba and Hughes. The Yanks DO have organizational depth at catcher. Jorge for the next year or two, Cervelii as a backup by next season, Romine a season or two later, and a couple of other good ones low down, including the kid they just signed, Sanchez.
The Jays have a lot of young pitching, some of it injured, but which will be returning at some point. What they don’t have are impact bats. What they don’t have are impact bats in their system. Their good young hitters are Hill, Lind, and when he breaks through, Snider. They can use Montero. It would be better for them if he stays at catcher, but even if he doesn’t, they need to replace Overbay shortly, and they still have Arenciba. If all else fails, he becomes their DH. The Yanks have to take on Rios’ contract, and throw in Swisher, or more likely, Melky.
Trading Montero will hurt the Yankees and the pain level may well be quite high for many years to come (ridiculous to put it this way this far ahead of the event, but Montero could be a Hall of Fame level bat).
I’m thinking Montero, Melky, McAllister, and possibly another high-ceiling pitching prospect for Halladay and Rios, with Rios splitting time between center and right. Jackson comes up next year and takes over left.
You can fit the pieces together for an outfield of Damon, Rios, Gardner, Swisher and Hinske for this season. Hinske can also play a few games at 3rd, leaving Ransom to backup Jeter and Cano for the most part. Matsui leaves next year. Damon is re-signed for a short term deal to play some leftfield and some DH. Jackson comes up next year, replacing Matsui on the roster, and works his way into the lineup over the next year or two.
You may think this is too much for Halladay, and the Yanks may not be able to fit it into their budget, but this is the best solution I can come up with.
One of the problems with Duchscherer is that he has problems controlling his anxiety, from what I’ve been reading.
(From a weblog article published midway through last season: “Duchscherer’s call to the rotation is actually a very interesting story. The A’s had kept Justin in the ‘pen, thinking that his arthritic hip wouldn’t be able to stay healthy over a 150- 200-inning season. But Justin, who apparently has a slightly nervous/anxious personality, found that the uncertainty of a late-inning role aggravated his IBS–Irritable Bowel Syndrome…And you can imagine that pitching the eighth inning for an MLB team would be kinda stressful. During the middle innings, Justin, sensing that he would have to take the mound, protect a lead, and not embarrass himself in front of a national audience, would have to leave the bench and run to the washroom.)
A trade to the Yankees has never been suggested as the solution to such a problem.
If I’m misinformed about that, then he’d be a decent solution, although Beane will, as usual, overcharge greatly for any player he trades to the Yankees, in spite of the injuries, and the IBS.
I don’t think the solution to the Yankees’ pitching shorts involves trading for a starter with a chronic bad hip, getting over an elbow injury, and with an anxiety-stress related disorder. I hope for his sake, he gets traded to the Royals, or someone like that.
My question is when did Wang get a case of the Carl Pavano? His shoulder now? Weak sauce. I love me some Chien-Ming…(not what you thought I was going to say eh?)..pretty sad to see him out for another half season!