A little more information on Wang
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- July
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Here’s an update on Chien-Ming Wang:
When he got the second MRI on Tuesday, it revealed a possible rotator-cuff tear. The question is whether it’s a new injury or scar tissue from the operation he had back in 2000.
Because Dr. James Andrews did that surgery, he will examine Wang on Tuesday and figure it all out. If Wang does have a new tear, he’ll be out the rest of this season and part of 2010. Wang, as you might expect, is nervous about what Andrews might find.
If Wang does need surgery, the Yankees could non-tender him in December rather than have him rehab on their dime.
So we should find out more on Tuesday. Baseball-wise, It has been a rough 13 months for CMW, that’s for sure.
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on Sunday, July 26th, 2009 at 7:50 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Yikes
The Yankees will not non-tender Wang, that’s just silly.
What a disaster. Hoping for the best.
at the very least we need a real #5 pitcher, now
To Non-tender CMW would be harsh, wow.
What an unkind year for Chien Ming Wang.
Our rotation with him healthy would have been something.
Best wishes to him.
Wow, so upset for wang, he was soooo good! hopefully he makes it through this tough time!
all the best to CMW – here hoping to see his name around some better baseball news as soon as possible.
scary to think this all started during that blowout in Houston!
Even if they non-tender him, can’t they resign him for a smaller amount? Obviouly they want to avoid paying him at least 80% of his this year salary if they offer him arbitration.
Wang was always an injury risk. It’s the main reason why the yanks never locked him up long term; they’ve always felt like his shoulder was a ticking time bomb. People should stop looking for scapegoats every time an injury occurs. Players get hurt, its part of the game.
I will have to say he earned our patience if we have to wait him out. two 19 wins season and a 8-0 start in 2008 did that for him. Good luck CMW
Let’s hope for the best.
Let’s just hope for the best!
I just wish for things to get better for Wang. Wish him the best, Pete.
Let’s hope its not as bad as it seems.
Patrick the Prospect Hugger
July 26th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
The Yankees will not non-tender Wang, that’s just silly.
=============
Silly and awfully sad.
BTW, why would AJax take Melky’s ABs vs. LHP? Melky is .291/.265/.488 from right side, w/120 OPS+.
Saw your MM post. I was at the game today, hoping Girardi would bring him in. Also earlier emailed Cashman about Girardi’s reluctance to use him. They definitely need to get him in a rhythm if he’s to be any use to us down the stretch and in postseason. And agree 100 percent he’s a NOW guy. His ability to get ground balls and Ks, makes him a two- look pitcher for the oppostion – which is extremely valuable.
He’s the best choice for long man, too, if they shift Aceves into the pen. I like that, because we don’t have to turn outside for some 30-something retread and waste inventory. But to get to be a long man, he needs to throw.
The Yanks have previously signed pitchers they need to re-hab. Seems like Wang would get looked after.
Wang’ll be fine. He’s not a power pitcher, so I doubt there is major structure damage.
Tho he is certainly waaaaay better than being anyone’s 5th starter!
Some1 in the comment section has a real short memory.
Wang was this team’s ace just last year; but what–they weren’t trying to win?
Come on.
At 5 mill Wang is a steal.
What about the 2006 surgery,Abe?
I hope the Yankees keep him and work with him through his rehab next year.
However, this would be a good excuse for Cashman to pick up an extra starter who could help us this year and maybe next year as well.
From the previous post:
FWIW, and maybe this has been discussed; if so, apologies:
I would think Jackson would make some sense, given:
1) Only CF is Melky;
2) Heading to TB, who, if memory serves, was a very aggressive team on the bases (see: defense first);
3) The way the offense is performing, a defensive CF is more important and can be compensated for;
4) The pitchers presumably would vote for an OF, not another DH (see: Duncan).
Steve
Injury management has been the issue – not the initial injury.
Non-tendering does not mean cutting all ties permanently. They’d just be off the hook from having to go through the arbitration process and paying him millions more than they might have to otherwise.
Even if he’s non-tendered, they can and will bring him back.
Wanzies,
AJax doesn’t appear to be in the Scranton lineup tonight. Maybe something’s – or someone’s – up.
I just hope Mark Melancon isn’t the odd man out, here.
And not for nothin’, but does Igawa realize that there is a parent club that MIGHT have thought about a spot-start (see 4.2 IP, 11H, etc.). Yikes.
If the Yankees can give Brackman 3 million to have TJ surgery and rehab, then it would be a huge diservice not to do at least the same for Wang.
if wang has surgery yanks to cover, hopefully they resign to a jon leiber tye deal
At least MM will get to pitch if he gets sent down. Rather see Alby rotting in the pen then him.
I just hope Mark Melancon isn’t the odd man out, here.
——————————————–
If Melancon isn’t going to pitch up here, he is better off at Scranton
randy l,
Are you sure those strength tests weren’t done on Wang? I mean, obviously the ball was dropped somewhere, I agree on that point.
Forgive me for being a computer geek and not an athletic health expert, but for most things in my field there are acceptable and optimal ranges/values. Isn’t it possible that Wang came into training, took the strength tests, and one of the doctors thought it was acceptable even if not optimal?
In hindsight, obviously there was something still wrong with Wang. His injury seemed to be handled poorly, I agree. I just wonder why you insist that the tests were never done when it could be they were done and the results misinterpreted.
Melancon is going back down sooner or later. Girardi doesn’t seem too interested in letting him pitch.
If he doesn’t go down in favor of Albaladejo (or whomever takes Gardner’s spot) he’ll be sent down when Marte is activated within the next week to ten days.
…if they shift Aceves into the ROTATION, that is.
keep in mind that ajax has been scuffling this week. Tonight could simply be a night off.
if i had access to him, i would ask a simple direct question to cashman:
” why did you let chien ming wang begin spring training without formal strength testing to see if he was ready to begin throwing?”
i would follow up and ask ” are there is any plans to do strength testing as prehab in the future?if not why not? “
Greg D
July 26th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
I just hope Mark Melancon isn’t the odd man out, here.
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If Melancon isn’t going to pitch up here, he is better off at Scranton
==================
Agree, but those are grim choices. And more importantly, the YANKEES are better off if he pitches up here.
I may get slammed for this,but this is only a blog.
I’ve been OVAH Wang,since the time when he pitched the Indians game and cost the Yankees 2 losses.Hr was lousy.I personally hope he’s gone forever.
Catcger Jeff Farnham had a very good first game in Charleston today. It’s only his 6th pro game. 2-4 with a homer, double and 4 RBI. No errors, no passed balls two steals against and 3 caught stealing.
Damon July 26th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
I may get slammed for this,but this is only a blog.
I’ve been OVAH Wang,since the time when he pitched the Indians game and cost the Yankees 2 losses.Hr was lousy.I personally hope he’s gone forever.
————
You should get slammed because that’s completely asinine.
JD
July 26th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
At least MM will get to pitch if he gets sent down. Rather see Alby rotting in the pen then him.
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Except that shouldn’t be the choice.
Getting Melancon going could accomplish three crucial things. One – he gets going, he’s going to get outs for us, can be a part of the BP, and maybe Girardi resists over-using Hughes & Rivera.
Two – he can pitch 2 and 3 innings because of his stuff, therefore he becomes a long man if we elect to,
Three – move Aceves into the rotation, which would relieve us of over-paying for somebody else’s BP arm.
Getting Melancon going actually accomplishes a great deal.
Damon July 26th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
I may get slammed for this,but this is only a blog.
I’ve been OVAH Wang,since the time when he pitched the Indians game and cost the Yankees 2 losses.Hr was lousy.I personally hope he’s gone forever.
——————-
It’s not “I may”. It’s “I will”, because that’s an idiotic post.
I don’t know what Melancon did to get in Girardi’s dog house, but letting him rot up here does him no good. I know every game is important and rarely do the Yanks have a blow out, but you gotta play him once in a while. That said, Cash is hopefully focusing on A) a solid reliever so Hughes can stretch back into the rotation or B) a Washburn type to replace Wang/Mitre in the rotation. I know Mitre did a decent job both outtings, but I gotta admit to being very very nervous while he’s out there.
I also thought that next year would have been set with CC, Wang, AJ, Joba and Hughes… but with Wang’s injury, the Yanks are going to need someone – so the quesiton is – is there anyone in AAA who can plug that hole or does he come from outside the org?
July 26th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
I may get slammed for this,but this is only a blog.
I’ve been OVAH Wang,since the time when he pitched the Indians game and cost the Yankees 2 losses.Hr was lousy.I personally hope he’s gone forever.
_______________
That’s completely ungrateful. The guy was a bright spot both on and off the field for the NYY. What separates the NYY and Boston is the way we treat our players/stars and they way they just dump them when they are no longer successful. Good thing for David Arias his father came to visit him with some more of the juice that made him good, or else he might’ve been enjoying himself some of the 60 day DL
“Are you sure those strength tests weren’t done on Wang? I mean, obviously the ball was dropped somewhere, I agree on that point.”
brando w.
yes, that’s possible strength tests were done, but it’s my understanding they weren’t.
if they were , how could they have missed the weakness and lack of strength in his hip ?
if the yankees want to be in the forefront of pitcher development and training they need to figure out what happened here and improve on their procedures so it doesn’t happen to another pitcher.
it is my understanding the red sox have strength testing equipment that the yankees don’t. for example i’ve read paplebon is monitored constantly for potential weakness in his shoulder.
it’s a prehab approach. dr andrews has a prehab program . i don’t think the yankees take part in it. i think they should see dr andrews ahead of the injuries rather than after the injuries if possible.
There’s a reason the Yankees are zealous with him in
arbitration. He’s injury prone.So what he won 2 yrs @ 19 games,what has he done lately.
He was out half last season from a foot injury,and came back with a weak hip,no arm strength,now another possible shoulder injury,Move on,next.
Wang is not a power pitcher? He may not be a strikeout pitcher, but when he’s right that sinker is 94,95,96 and occasionally 97. That’s power.
Randy,
How can you be certain that no strength testing was done on Wang in ST?
CMW is my fav. Yankee
Damon July 26th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
There’s a reason the Yankees are zealous with him in
arbitration. He’s injury prone.So what he won 2 yrs @ 19 games,what has he done lately.
——————
Yep, it’s fans like you that give all of us a bad name.
I bet you were all over his feet 2 years ago. Injury prone? The guy broke his foot and thanks to Cashman’s mismanagement, it led to a host of other ailments he otherwise would not have had.
Do all of us a favor and do some research before you post.
Franco,
of all the people on this blog that comment,your opinion is never considered or valued as important.
Your juvenile, and remind me of an kindergardener,with your name calling.Your crude!
Porcello is getting rocked by the White Sox in the 2nd inning.
Damon July 26th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Franco,
of all the people on this blog that comment,your opinion is never considered or valued as important.
Your juvenile, and remind me of an kindergardener,with your name calling.Your crude!
————–
Maybe you should learn the difference between “Your” and “You’re” before you hurl out insults.
vb03 did he brake his shoulder too?
Has there ever been an instance of a pitcher successfully coming back from two rotator cuff surgeries?
What troubles me is most is that I don’t see CMW as the type of pitcher who can re-invent himself. It’s not as if he has an array of secondary pitches. If that power sinker isn’t there, he’s dead in the water.
Damon July 26th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Franco,
of all the people on this blog that comment,your opinion is never considered or valued as important.
Your juvenile, and remind me of an kindergardener,with your name calling.Your crude!
——–
That’s pretty funny coming from the guy who just said that he hopes Wang never returns when he was their best pitcher since 2006.
Girardi is a letter of the law kind of guy.
He is reluctant to stray from the formula, now that he finds himself leading the division.
His margin for error has gotten narrower, which is understandable, because that’s manager-think, but he needs to get a handle on the opportunity getting this kid warmed presents to his long-term goal..
For it’s ridiculous to think there’s some major risk in bringing this guy in the 6th or 7th, with us leading by two or down by two, or whatever.
vb03 I did after I PRESSED SUBMIT. You got the point.
Damon July 26th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
vb03 did he brake his shoulder too?
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It’s a separate issue from the broken foot. The foot is what caused him to miss the last year plus. He also has never had any problems with his shoulder until now.
Hardly what I’d call “injury prone.”
And no, he didn’t brake his shoulder. He didn’t brake his foot, either, for that matter.
I agree with those that say Jackson should be brought up for his defense, especially for this next series.
TB is a team that will run wild on a poor OF defense. Having Melky in RF and Jackson in CF would be a big improvement over what we have now.
The Yankees should tell Jackson just to focus on his defense and running the bases well, and try and put together good AB’s, but not to worry if he doesn’t hit. The Yankees have plenty of offense surrounding him. They need his glove and speed.
Spending 2-3 weeks in the big leagues without getting regular playing time is NOT going to stunt Jackson’s growth. If anything, he’ll learn what things he needs to work on most, and will be able to get advice from his teammates. Maybe the Yankees will get lucky and the promotion will jump start him (like the promo from A to AA last year).
Also, I hope Hinske gets at least one start against TB, considering he has a lot of experience playing RF at the Trop and he knows their pitchers.
2006 isn’t 2 0 0 9 Let him go Cashman.
brandon w-
just reread your post.
the way wang’s hip injury was diagnosed was that when wang was sent to tampa to see what they could do down there after wang was just getting killed in the regular season, arod’s hip therapist told arod ( who was also in tampa) that he thought wang’s hip was the problem.
this was in late april or may. it was just luck the therapist was there. arod told the yankees and the yankees then had wang’s hips tested. i think if i remember correctly his hip was at half strength.
so by happenstance the yankees found out that wang was not in any condition to pitch.
this was at least two months late and then it was dumb luck that arod had a hip injury.
i don’t think proper testing was done before spring training began.
This is random, but I just noticed the Cubs are in first place by .5 game over the Cardinals, but the Cubs have played 96 games so far and the Cards have played 101 games. How do the Cardinals have so many more games played?
Randy, I think part of the problem is that fans tend to think an injury is due to the player’s negligence or an accident or something. But it is always on the player. Most fans do not realize how much pain players play through. Especially, with today’s schedules with very few off days. When I was growing up, it seemed pretty standard that Mondays and Thursdays were dark days, i.e., they did not play. These schedules are grueling especially with all the travel. A body needs some downtime to recuperate. These schedules do not allow for it. Fans just want to see games and don’t for the most part realize what it takes to get through a season.
So when Wang is hurt and comes back too soon, it looks like the player’s fault. It would be interesting to note why the medical consultants or the training staff did not create a long term rehab and strength building for Wang.
And SJ as for your nephew, I always enjoy what you have to say. Please keep it up. It is very exciting.
“it is my understanding the red sox have strength testing equipment that the yankees don’t. for example i’ve read paplebon is monitored constantly for potential weakness in his shoulder.”
randy,
I agree with much of what you’ve said regarding Wang’s injury and how it was initially handled. As you know I was saying from the start his base wasn’t right.
I also brought up the issue of the strength testing as I know the Red Sox do it.
But just for reference – the value of that strength testing is unknown from what I understand.
For example, the strength tests may not accurately mimic real game action and muscle use.
It’s unclear what the value of strength testing a pitcher’s arm is given that so much of the stress is on ligaments and tendons and on muscles that are extremely difficult to isolate.
It’s also very hard to accurately measure and isolate a complex region like the hip from what I understand as there are so many over lapping regions of muscles.
It’s unclear what the value of those tests are. This is one of the fundamental problems of any kind of statistic/ measurement that isn’t taken into account nearly enough.
What does the number truly represent?
And with this muscle testing, as I understand it, that’s unclear.
Last year the reason why the Sox let Lester throw so many innings was due to this strength testing.
I have no idea if that makes any sense to do and i don’t think there’s any evidence that says as long as a pitcher’s strength is intact its ok to increase his work load by more than 30 innings in a year. Strength cannot completely predict or be deterministic of whether or not someone’s ulnar collateral ligament or labrum will tear.
Very nervous for the Wang
All i know we better get some pitching depth . . PERIOD
RS they start their season as early as possible,and not too many days off. August is good for them this season,they get days off.
With the pitching market the way it is, you can’t just flush a two time 19 game winner. What, so Boston can rehab him and he can come back and get us? No. Andrews can fix the shoulder, and when he comes back, if he’s two thirds of what he was we have a # 3 or 4, 14-16 game winner. That works for me.
randy
Thanks for clearing that up. Now I understand why you’re always insisting that the strength training was never done; I had forgotten (or didn’t realize, at the time) that that was how Wang’s ineffectiveness/rehab progressed.
It really is amazing how every part of an athlete’s body contributes towards their effectiveness. It becomes easy to think of a pitcher as an “arm,” but their hips, legs, and feet provide such an important part of their mechanics. I definitely think that the Yankees should work on extending their prehab work, especially with the contracts of their top players. Investment in preventative measures can save you a bundle down the road.
“Randy,
How can you be certain that no strength testing was done on Wang in ST?”
i can’t, but i can logically assume that since his hip was found to be at half strength that he wasn’t tested or he was incorrectly tested.
how can you miss half strength?
the other thing i’m basing my belief on is the yankees have little history of prehab.
they tend to spare no costs after an injury develops, but don’t seem to do much to prevent injuries in the first place.
as i said dr andrews has a prehab program and i’d be surprised to find the yankees take part in it.
Remember the story the RS made up about,Papelbon wanting to be the closer,after they stretched him out for the starting rotation? It was because of his shoulder.
More Money coming off the books.
“It’s a separate issue from the broken foot. The foot is what caused him to miss the last year plus. He also has never had any problems with his shoulder until now.”
Did you read Pete’s post? Want had his shoulder operated on in ‘01 and missed significant time due to his shoulder in ‘05 when he first came up.
I know his best friend Justin Chamberlain,(who he named his son after)will miss him,for sure.
GB: Think it’s a coincidence that Porcello’s got hardly any minor league innings and has been struggling of late?
Giuseppe Franco Your crude!
hahaha
Sorry GF that comment killed me.
Nick in SF, or any other Elvis Costello fan:
On Sundance right now.
What pitchers are on the open market this fall?
RS
July 26th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
This is random, but I just noticed the Cubs are in first place by .5 game over the Cardinals, but the Cubs have played 96 games so far and the Cards have played 101 games. How do the Cardinals have so many more games played?
————————————————————
The Cubs have had quite a few rainouts this year.
I know someone brought this up earlier, but the fact that we lead the AL in homegrown talent, 2nd in all of MLB, is just fascinating.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....p;c_id=mlb
“It really is amazing how every part of an athlete’s body contributes towards their effectiveness. It becomes easy to think of a pitcher as an “arm,” but their hips, legs, and feet provide such an important part of their mechanics.”
brandon w
that is totally the point. i have never stopped throwing a baseball( have fifty balls and throw at a net almost every day), but i developed a groin tear somehow that doesn’t allow me to land hard on my landing foot.
i’ve just plain shut it down because i know i can’t throw if i can’t land properly. it would totally screw up my arm if i just threw with my arm. so i don’t throw while this injury is healing.
if you don’t have proper leg strength, you can’t throw. it’s that simple. if you do, you’ll injure yourself in time. it puts too much strain on the arm.
throwing is a synchronized sequential activity that if any part is out of whack the whole system breaks down.
As valuable to the Yankees as Wang has been,how do you not check him out thoroughly,before you let him start the season?
Who ever told him not to workout,in the off season,bears some of the blame.
Randy,
As I understand both your post and CB’s below it, the problem is not specifically that he did not have strength testing but in the way that Wang’s rehab was managed. You’re right that it makes no sense to go from many months of inactivity to a full spring training regimen.
ARod had both a surgeon and a medical rehab specialist supervising his rehab. I think that the Yanks should have had a rehab doc supervising Wang’s return as well as that of all players returning from serious injuries. It should be a standard part of the team’s medical program.
“As you know I was saying from the start his base wasn’t right.”
cb-
i of course do remember that was your analysis and it turns out you were right.
what i saw was the high release point but didn’t know why.
This whole area of the musculoskeletal basis of athletic performance is new and uncharted waters. There is so much that is unknown. Take this example –
An article in the NYTimes Sports section today, referring to two recent studies that claim that there is no relationship between throwing curve balls at a too early age and elbow injury. This goes very much conventional wisdom to the contrary.
And the ironic thing about this is that the authors of one of the studies are from the ASMI (Alabama Sports Medicine Institute, I think) – founded by Dr. James Andrews, one of the strongest proponents of the conventional view.
Go figure. My point is that much is unknown. With the emphasis on the business angle coming from the industry, I think a lot of money is going to be thrown at this problem. MLB should fund some of this.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
July 26th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
GB: Think it’s a coincidence that Porcello’s got hardly any minor league innings and has been struggling of late?
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Rebecca, it’s quite probable. I just hope he doesn’t get hurt, but, I might expect him to have a few problems next year. He’s going to log a lot of innings this year. He had 125 in the minors last year, so I’d expect him to be around 160 this year. They will be in the playoffs quite likely, so, the Tigers may push him hard.
“AJax doesn’t appear to be in the Scranton lineup tonight. Maybe something’s – or someone’s – up.
I just hope Mark Melancon isn’t the odd man out, here.”
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Melancon needs to be sent down to the minors tomorrow. This is ridiculous that he hasnt pitched in a game since July 11th. He is going to be no help to them anyhow even if they do call him out to pitch since hes going to be so rusty. Then fans will just complain he stinks and want him gone. I guess it wouldnt matter at that point since they probably will only use him in a game they are losing.
So to sum up my tangent, call up someone else (an OF since they called up Alby today)so he can get in some work in AAA.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
July 26th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
GB: Think it’s a coincidence that Porcello’s got hardly any minor league innings and has been struggling of late?
——————————————————
Rebecca, you should call into Francesa about that and see if he lets you get a word in. During his infamous Joba rant, he compares Joba’s stats to Porcello’s.
Would love to hear him do that now.
RIP Chien Ming Wang’s career
If it is scar tissue and not a new injury, I would hope they could just scope it. Either way he’s done for this year, I would imagine.
I hope the Yankees do the right thing in either case.
Just to weigh in – on the topic of who should be called up in Brett’s place (I posted this over on my site in our forums, and it got interesting receptions):
[people had been arguing for Shelley to come up]…
i don’t see how shelley helps other than just giving us a body on the bench. hinske plays just about the same positions with better offensive ability (hinske will not step in and play center – and even though people said he could during the offseason, swish will not fill in well in center either). honestly, when would shelley be at all helpful in the lineup with who we have on the squad right now.
i did, however, leave out one pretty interesting thought in calling Ramiro Pena back up. He’s been playing a lot of CF with SWB and playing well. We’ve all seen his speed, but he also has a decent arm from the field and tracks balls well. He also seems to be comfortable playing on the big stage, but would he slide into a tandem well in center?
That being said, I still think this is a good opportunity to see Ajax play in the height of summer. Remember, this is only for 15 days, so at worst, we’ll be able to give him some exposure before the rosters expand, allow him to get a feel for the stage, and for us, we’ll have that sincere baserunning threat that we lack without Gardner. I think it would be good to let the boy show us what he can do.
…just wanted to see what you guys felt about Ramiro seeing as how he’s kind of slipped through the cracks in these conversations (If this has been discussed, I apologize)
So, who is the #5 that we trade for? I mean, its a necessity now.
Doing the testing on hip strength and any other is dependent on far too many things, including having a data base of what the individual players strength was.
Being a hip specialist its not surprising that they would be able to see movement that doesn’t look right over someone who isn’t specializing in that one particular area.
Wang’s rehab was cut short, but he may have started injuring his shoulder when he was struggling in the early part of the season. His mechanics were off, his pitching speed was lower, which could cause him to try to muscle the pitching more.
If Pena has looked good in center, I’d rather bring him up than Jackson or Duncan. I think it’s obvious Jackson is not ready yet, and Duncan offers no versatility.
o’Realy- not a bad idea actually with Pena. I saw him play CF when I went to a AAA game 2 weeks ago and he looked pretty good out there. Its hard to say just from seeing him that one game to know how well he is able to read the balls hit off the bat from different angles. Don’t they say it is generally a harder transition going from the infield to outfield?
From watching Jackson on several occasions, I still dont think hes ready to be called up just yet. I would personally wait til September callups. He still is striking out way too many times. His speed, I will admit is extremely impressive though.
cb-
it appears that strength testing like much of the new things in baseball has some growing pains to go through , but it also seems like a good idea for a team like the yankees to be in the forefront of the technology.
arod’s therapist somehow was able to measure wang’s hip.
that we know.
so from this point on , that’s a guy( or someone like him) who should be on the payroll.
i don’t have the financial resources to do strength testing of the kind we’re talking about, but i have devices that measure swing speed for example. if i can’t hit my peak velocity, i know something is wrong.
then i break it down backwards to find out what’s wrong. at my age it’s often flexibility issues so i’ll work on that first. the velocity comes back when i go though a checklist of what causes a lower velocity.
i just think all this stuff should be measured and thought out. i have often asked players if they are right eye dominant or left eye dominant and few know. i’m left eye dominant which means i couldn’t see around my nose when hitting left handed with a closed stance. i opened up my stance and gave my left eye a chance to see the ball. much easier.
there are a thousand and one things like eye dominance. it’s all sports science stuff that i think the yankees should be in the forefront of. i think strength testing makes too much sense to not do it even if it’s in it’s beginning stages.
randy l.
July 26th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
“As you know I was saying from the start his base wasn’t right.”
cb-
i of course do remember that was your analysis and it turns out you were right.
what i saw was the high release point but didn’t know why.
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Randy, do you think that NYY might try dealing with Texas by sending a couple of young pitchers and a minor league infielder to Texas and NYY take on Padilla’s and Marlon Byrd’s with some money (Jones is only owed another 150,000 or so). It seem that cash is what’s keeping them from dealing for Lee or Halladay.
jon from nj
July 26th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
If Pena has looked good in center, I’d rather bring him up than Jackson or Duncan. I think it’s obvious Jackson is not ready yet, and Duncan offers no versatility.
————————————————————
Pena’s only had 5 games in center, so, they’d have to really rely on the Scranton team’s assessment as to how well he’s doing.
randy,
I wasn’t really trying to get into right or wrong. I was more agreeing with your concerns regarding his rehab.
I guess I’m just wondering if the focus of the critique is rightly on strength testing. That’s all. I personally didn’t think it was a great idea for the Sox to push Lester last year only because his strength testing was OK.
When something as dramatic as what’s happened with wang takes place, I think it’s most likely going to have many reasons as to why.
I still don’t understand why Wang didn’t say more about what was going on with his body? He had to know something was not right, for example.
I also still wonder what happenned to his mechanics.
I remember the pitch he threw before Posada snapped out of his crouch and got Girardi and the trainer.
Wang’s front shoulder completely flew open early and his right shoulder dragged badly.
I think it was that pitch where he really hurt himself. I think the immediate shoulder injury was more acute than one that happened with use. He was throwing hard in that game and then the straing/ tear occurred.
Either way, let’s hope it’s only a strain and that they are seeing scar tissue on the new scan.
My guess is that it’s going to be scar tissue and that he’ll be ok with rest.
I hope that’s not wishful thinking. But I think that’s the highest probability.
There’s no way we’re taking Padilla. He’s a clubhouse cancer.
Christina – I guess you hear different things from different people (mostly, I would assume, based on the stadium that a team plays in), but I think transitioning either way is tough – however, I think that Ramiro has generally been viewed as a player who can succeed all around the field (I have no scouting reports to support this – it’s just my impression). I saw him play center a couple of games and in one, he had the opportunity to throw out a runner (it was Angel Berroa – but the ball was deep in the gap and Berroa was coming from second, so he would’ve been safe no matter who was throwing) and his throw was strong and on line.
They seem to be giving him a lot of time in center, so maybe this is one of those lucky situations where they couldn’t predict an injury to an OF, but it happened and they had someone getting ready to fill in. Since Ramiro has been playing the position, he might be comfortable in coming and playing on the big stage.
As for Ajax, I don’t get the impression that he’s too far away from MLB ready – I have seen him play in about 9 or 10 games this year and he’s looked really solid in all of them. My only complaint is that he doesn’t seem to be viewing pitches well. But, it could be argued that coming to the big show and seeing MLB caliber pitchers throwing good stuff can motivate him that much more to work on his eye. Remember, this is just a temporary thing as Gardner just has a small fracture in his thumb. I see how people want to give Ajax as much of an opportunity to get ready in the minors, but why not introduce him now because as we all know – until the playoff spots are secured, the players on expanded rosters get an AB here, an inning in the field there in blowout games only.
Whoa, the name Padilla should be a swear word – you really think someone with that short of a fuse and the ease in which he gets frustrated, rattled and just gives up is what we need in a playoff race – don’t think so.
I don’t think the argument to go out and get a 5th starter type guy is really a strong one based on the pieces we have in the pen as well as the guys we have to give a chance in the minors. Unless we can go out and get someone like Duchscherer for cheap, lower level prospects, I don’t think going after anyone in (kind of) desperation would be any better than going out and just like signing paul byrd or something.
Padilla is just a synonym for Ponson.
All NYY needs is a starter to chew up innings until the end of the year and keep the ball in the yard. This year, Padilla’s done that with 8 homers allowed. At the end of the year, NYY cuts him loose for 1.75 mil buyout or tries to resign him at a lower rate than the 12 mil team option. At the same time, NYY could try moving Swisher to a team in need of offense, like SF.
cb-
as always i appreciate your perspective and suggestions of other possibilities.
i understand that there is no foolproof way to prevent injury. throwing is a very complex activity. my main point is there was a point in time where wang’s rehab should have taken a different course and that was the beginning of spring training.
he was not right then. there should have been a way to know that.
i saw the strange high release point in an early spring training game and pat m and i commented back and forth about it.
the yankees knew wang wasn’t right but they just figured he’d get better as time went on.
as it turned out he couldn’t because of the hip weakness. i’m just saying someone should have looked closer and found it when all signs were that something was wrong.
I think Pena makes sense for the callup. AJax is not on the 40 man, so a move would have to be made (I don’t know why Nady isn’t on the 60 day DL yet). Pena is more versatile and they know he’s not completely overmatched against major league pitching.
I don’t think Pena has had nearly enough time playing OF. The first time he missed a ball the poor kid would be crucified.
Remember the Mets and the Daniel Murphy as an OF experiment? How did that turn out?
My name works. Thanks Pete!
“Either way, let’s hope it’s only a strain and that they are seeing scar tissue on the new scan.
My guess is that it’s going to be scar tissue and that he’ll be ok with rest.”
I am no Doctor, but I recently have had a second surgery on the same body part (ankle). My Doctor could not tell if it was scar tissue or a new tear. Even with a new MRI. I feel bad for CMW.
About changing positions, I remember reading that it is easier to move from the inside of the diamond to the outside rather than the other way around. In other words, it’s easier for a catcher to become either an infielder or an outfielder, or for an infielder to learn the outfield, rather than the reverse situation. Makes sense.
I hear that Ramiro hasn’t played much in CF, but he has played (I just checked though – and Christina and I have been to 75% of Ramiro’s CF starts – he’s had 4 this year). But he has played, and unless you call on Ajax, you’re asking for Melky and Damon to cover CF and I think we all get frightened to think of Damon (especially with the subpar LF he’s played this season) to be put in center – I would rather have an inexperienced Ramiro than him. I reall think it has to come down to those two.
And as for Padilla, and again, the idea of a 5th starter – we really have guys to eat inning that I honestly would rather have than half of the guys on the market that we could get without really giving anyone up. I’d rather have Jason Johnson or Kei Igawa than I would Padilla or any of those other worthless scrubs that would also mess up the atmosphere of the clubhouse.
“my main point is there was a point in time where wang’s rehab should have taken a different course and that was the beginning of spring training.”
And I completely agree.
He was throwing in the low 90’s and coming off a lower body injury. That’s all the strength testing you need.
The strange thing is though that I think he regained most of his strength during his rehab and before he injured his shoulder.
By the time he came back – even though he was rushed – his velocity was fine. He was back to throwing mid 90’s with his four seamer and 92-94 on his two seamer.
His strength looked ok when he returned. But his mechanics were still off. His front shoulder kept flying open, for instance.
He seemed to get hurt after his strength was close to normal. I don’t think this was a wear injury. He just didn’t throw that many innings before he was shut down the first time and sent to tampa.
I hope he’s ok. I’m optimistic. I think it’ll be scar tissue, though he might need a scope to see.
Scranton got hammered 10-2, but, Pena was 3-3 with a 2 run homer and a walk. Cervelli and Curtis were 0-4 with Cervelli striking out 2 times and Curtis once.
I think i might be going a little too far by saying the K-word…but it just kind of emphasizes my point.
GB7
Is there any way to pay to watch minor league games online?
I don’t think the Yanks get Padillo. Cashman has lately put a real emphasis on signing people who are strong character guys. Besides, if they did get Padillo he might sneak into Tex’ hotel room on the road one night and blast him with a fastball as he lay sleeping.
GB7-
Is there any way to pay to watch minor league games online?
Whats the problem with Ajax as a defensive/bench player for a couple of weeks.
He has to be a better defensive outfielder then Pena. For a couple of weeks it would do him good to be with the big boys.
Jim
they play some of them at MiLB.tv – but they aren’t free.
cb-
i agree that somewhere along the line his mechanics were all off and he couldn’t get back to his old mechanics even when he started to get healthy.
it’s why a pitcher almost always shouldn’t pitch with leg injuries.
the pitcher tries to overcompensate by using his arm more and often differently.
the high release point he pitched with all season to varying degrees couldn’t have helped the shoulder.
Forget talking about Josh Towers, Jason Johnson, Paul Bush or Igawa. They’re having problems getting out AA and AAA hitters. They’re just filling space in the minors.
Jim Pir-one
July 26th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
GB7-
Is there any way to pay to watch minor league games online?
————————————————————
yes, but, it costs 6.75 a month or 29.95 a year. You get selected view and almost all teams have radio feeds.
wang
The weird thing with Wang was that his mechanics would be right in the bullpen then fall apart in the games.
What does non-tendering mean? Isn’t Wang under contract? Pavano was on permanent DL for 4 years straight and never had to deal with this, why do the Yanks treat CMW like this?
If picking up a pitcher like Padilla means getting a Marlon Byrd or Jones and unloading Swisher, it’s worth the negatives. teixeira knows him best as to whether he’d fit in. Excuse me if I don’t accept bloggers, writers and posters who claim that every player they don’t like is a “clubhouse cancer”.
My prayers are for good news with the Wanger. At least he has a healthy son.
As for Ajax, I don’t get the impression that he’s too far away from MLB ready – I have seen him play in about 9 or 10 games this year and he’s looked really solid in all of them. My only complaint is that he doesn’t seem to be viewing pitches well. But, it could be argued that coming to the big show and seeing MLB caliber pitchers throwing good stuff can motivate him that much more to work on his eye. Remember, this is just a temporary thing as Gardner just has a small fracture in his thumb. I see how people want to give Ajax as much of an opportunity to get ready in the minors, but why not introduce him now because as we all know – until the playoff spots are secured, the players on expanded rosters get an AB here, an inning in the field there in blowout games only.
————-
o’Realy- Valid point. If he is going to get a chance to play, then I see no harm in that. Just dont be too disappointed when he strikes out 3/4 of the time. I do hope I am exaggerating with that statement.
If you bring him up here, the Yankees must play him on a somewhat consistent basis. If the do the same thing to him that they are doing to Melancon, there is no purpose in having him on the team at this point in time. These guys need to develop, not sit on a bench spitting sunflower seeds into a cup.
“the high release point he pitched with all season to varying degrees couldn’t have helped the shoulder.”
Agreed. He didn’t look like he was throwing naturally.
At the same time he didn’t throw that many innings this season. And it was only those first 3 starts or so where he was really a total mess and his entire mechanics were completely off. He just didn’t throw that many pitches in that state of disarray.
He didn’t look right on his stint coming back off the DL but he didn’t look remotely as bad as he did to start the season.
I don’t know. The entire picture has so many potential variables in play it’s difficult to discern the impact of one versus the other.
If they had strength tested Wang before sending him up the second time I’d guess he would have been essentially normal. He had very good velocity when he came back up. He wasn’t struggling with generating power.
o’Realy, were you at the Yankees/Mets game in Syracuse by the way? You mentioned the Berroa throw and I think that was the game I was at.
I don’t get why people are talking about Brett being out 2 weeks. The only reason he’s on the 15 day DL is because the only other option is the too-long 60 day. There’s no way he can come back from a broken thumb in two weeks. Undoubtedly he’s out for a month or more………I am firmly opposed to bringing up Austin Jackson, so the Yankees need to be creative and find someone to split time with Melky.
Tony Pena Jr. as a pitcher??
http://www.kansascity.com/385/story/1346950.html
Gb – After the infamous game where Padilla hit Tex twice (last time Tex got into a yelling match with him), Kim Jones asked Tex about his history with Padilla.
Tex responded that when they played together in Texas, Padilla would routinely throw at and hit opposing batters, resulting in Texas players (like Teixeira) getting hit in return. When Tex and others told Padilla that it was no fun getting hit, Padilla blew them off.
To continue, Tex claimed that when he was on the Angels last year, Padilla routinely threw at him.
So, I guess if you don’t mind your baseball games to be spiced up with beanball wars, Padilla is your man. At least, according to Teixeira.
Since Wang was hurt in season, NYY is still responsible for his surgery and rehab. That eliminates who’s “dime” it’s on. They’re also not likely to turn a known 29 year old 15-19 game winner loose and have him end up in Boston, Tampa or Toronto without knowing how he’ll recover. They’ll offer him a contract and see if he takes it.
don’t get defensive there greenberet – i understand your logic behind it, i just think it’s a superfluous move. The guys in the minors may be having trouble getting guys out down there (even though Igawa is breaking AAA records like it’s his job – hooray), but Padilla is no better than Mitre, and we have guys to eat innings after him in the pen. Plus, Padilla would just become another body to fill up the minors when we do secure a playoff spot because, let’s be honest – do you really want to start him in the postseason? I wouldn’t.
And as for the clubhouse cancer idea, I don’t think everyone is a clubhouse cancer, but when you have a positive vibe among a team, you don’t want to stir the drink and really risk messing it up. We’ve seen guys (especially pitchers) come in and mess with the club dynamic, and it’s hurt us in the past. And unloading Swisher? Come on, even though he’s not the most productive player in the world, he does really keep guys at ease and he’s a huge part of the attitude of the team – he leaves and the team won’t deal with stressful, tough periods AS well (I’m not saying that these guys are a bunch of wimps that will cry without the clubhouse chill guy, but he certainly doesn’t hurt the situation).
GB, I do not want Padilla on this team…..
I suppose we find out tomorrow what the CF decision is. AJax is not on the 40 man, so they would have to make room.
Joe from Long Island
July 26th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Gb – After the infamous game where Padilla hit Tex twice (last time Tex got into a yelling match with him), Kim Jones asked Tex about his history with Padilla.
Tex responded that when they played together in Texas, Padilla would routinely throw at and hit opposing batters, resulting in Texas players (like Teixeira) getting hit in return. When Tex and others told Padilla that it was no fun getting hit, Padilla blew them off.
To continue, Tex claimed that when he was on the Angels last year, Padilla routinely threw at him.
So, I guess if you don’t mind your baseball games to be spiced up with beanball wars, Padilla is your man. At least, according to Teixeira.
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I’m looking at it from getting one of their three center fielders as much as anything. I’d still ask teixeira how hee feels about having him on the team. There just aren’t many available innings type pitchers, other than Randy’s baby brother Livan.
j/k, Randy….sort of.
Wang was so solid for years. I wish him the best. I know he misses pitching, but it’s nice to see him interacting with the guys more than ever.
Wang will take care of his shoulder and be back.
He may not be the same Wang, but you won’t see the Yankees toss him on the side like rotten fruit.
If you guys think that’s the way the Yankees operate, you don’t know your Yankees.
Pat m may have had it wrong. In 3 years Wang will be the best #5 in baseball. Just kidding.
Brett’s cast is on for 3 weeks, then he’ll be evaluated.
Bring up a real CF. Austin Jackson makes sense.
“There’s no way he can come back from a broken thumb in two weeks. Undoubtedly he’s out for a month or more………I am firmly opposed to bringing up Austin Jackson, so the Yankees need to be creative and find someone to split time with Melky.”
Betsy he’s in a cast for two weeks,then will be reevaluated.
Ajax could be a defensive replacement, see spot duty, work with k.long for two weeks.
If it becomes much longer then the Yankees could get “creative”.
o’Realy
July 26th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
don’t get defensive there greenberet – i understand your logic behind it, i just think it’s a superfluous move. The guys in the minors may be having trouble getting guys out down there (even though Igawa is breaking AAA records like it’s his job – hooray), but Padilla is no better than Mitre, and we have guys to eat innings after him in the pen. Plus, Padilla would just become another body to fill up the minors when we do secure a playoff spot because, let’s be honest – do you really want to start him in the postseason? I wouldn’t.
And as for the clubhouse cancer idea, I don’t think everyone is a clubhouse cancer, but when you have a positive vibe among a team, you don’t want to stir the drink and really risk messing it up. We’ve seen guys (especially pitchers) come in and mess with the club dynamic, and it’s hurt us in the past. And unloading Swisher? Come on, even though he’s not the most productive player in the world, he does really keep guys at ease and he’s a huge part of the attitude of the team – he leaves and the team won’t deal with stressful, tough periods AS well (I’m not saying that these guys are a bunch of wimps that will cry without the clubhouse chill guy, but he certainly doesn’t hurt the situation).
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How many “positive vibes” eminated from the Oakland clubhouses of the early ’70s. Winning games makes for “winning vibes”.
Really feel for the guy. Some Yankee fans and officials have done nothing to support him when all he’s done in the past is win and go out and give us quality starts. Hope he rebounds from this tough patch.
I feel awful for CMW and wish him good luck. He seems like a terrific kid.
As far as Padilla, there’s too much good chemistry on this team to bring in a jerk like him. The Yanks dont need the Gary Sheffield/Randy Johnson negativity. He wont fit in, nor should he.
“There just aren’t many available innings type pitchers, other than Randy’s baby brother Livan.”
gb7-
it would be very funny if livan ever pitches for the yankees.
i don’t think it’d be safe to pitch him at home unless the yankees had a very tall right fielder.
randy l.
July 26th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
“There just aren’t many available innings type pitchers, other than Randy’s baby brother Livan.”
gb7-
it would be very funny if livan ever pitches for the yankees.
i don’t think it’d be safe to pitch him at home unless the yankees had a very tall right fielder.
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Bring Shaun Bradley in for defense.
sad….
I still remember him running around the bases and then pulling up gimpy. the beginning of the end.
so, will the Yanks make any drastic moves, given that Wang’s real status will be known before the 31st? Or do we expect Mitre to actually be the 5th for the rest of the year?(YIKES!!!!)
I say that Cashman brings in someone totally unexpected (pitcher) and that the move turns out to be effective. He does his best work under the radar.
Tarheel, the point is, Gardner is going to be out for a long time. It stinks because he provided an element of speed that the Yanks haven’t had for a long time – he was a very good pinch runner, etc.. Oh well – we’ll just have to make due (and hopefully NOT with Austin Jackson). Cash needs to get a SP and an OF …..
I’ve never understood the concept of an “innings eater.”
What is the acceptable ER/IP for a pitcher deemed an “innings eater”?
Sergio Mitre was at 74 pitches and had given up 3 runs in the 6th inning when Girardi pulled him for giving up a lead off single. Would he qualify as an innings eater?
I have no issues with the way Mitre has pitched. He’s still shaking off two years of rust. He has no problems getting two strikes on batters, including a fair share of swinging misses. It’s a good put away pitch that’s missing right now, though he’s getting a ton of grounders. He’s getting them into the 6th inning and that should improve. Until he gets more innings, NYY needs to work him around the weaker hitting teams and not pitch him on turf.
Clueless!
“It’s noble of Brian Cashman to pretend that he is also following the Red Sox blueprint of trying to build a player development machine, but at some point the Yankees might be best served by admitting they are what they are — a high-priced collection of big names, most of whom came up through another team’s farm system. They should have made the Johan Santana deal two years ago, and they should deal for Halladay now. Here’s hoping they’re not smart enough to realize as much.’
Chad Finn-Boston Globe
http://www.boston.com/sports/t.....wings.html
Betsy
Gardner will be missed. I don’t think it is for an extended period of time. At least I hope not. Ajax will suffice for a short term period.
GB
I agree about Mitre. I am impressed with the movement he gets on the ball. A little rusty but the stuff is there.
Roy Halladay Rumors: Sunday
By Mike Axisa [July 26 at 9:00pm CST]
9:00pm: Rosenthal just heard from Ricciardi that the chances of Halladay leaving Toronto at this point are “very slim.” Here’s more from the general manager:
“We’ve said that we would listen, but that we would have to be motivated and ‘wowed. Right now we haven’t been. I’ve said all along my gut tells me I won’t be. I still stand by that.”
“If we get to the last week,” Ricciardi added, “and haven’t really made any progress with anybody, I’m not going to say it’s 100 percent certain, but I would have to pretty much think it’s not going to get done.”
It sure sounds like the Blue Jays aren’t going to lower their asking price.
m
July 26th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Brett’s cast is on for 3 weeks, then he’ll be evaluated.
Bring up a real CF. Austin Jackson makes sense.
====
Post of the day – maybe the year.
Somebody better tell the Yankees they are currently employing a “fake” CF.
Fine with me if Doc stays in Toronto…..
That’s funny stuff, Tarheel.
The Yanks are a better team now BECAUSE they didn’t make the Santana deal.
Why would the Yankees start Austin Jackson’s arbitration clock already so he can rot on the bench and play a few innings of D? It just puts him a year closer to a bigger payday. The difference between him and Pena or Duncan over a month is not worth it.
Melky’s having a good season.. If anything the Yanks need a “real” RF..
What Pitcher do the Yanks go for now?.. Pettitte/Mitre and/or Joba isn’t cuttin’ it..
Melky isn’t a “fake” center fielder. He’s just a “fake” everyday player.
bodhi,
Please don’t take offense. That was a slip.
Bring up a real OF. Not a converted IF, and certainly not Shelly Duncan.
You really need to stop being so sensitive about Cabrera. Please.
Tarheelyank
July 26th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Betsy
Gardner will be missed. I don’t think it is for an extended period of time. At least I hope not. Ajax will suffice for a short term period.
GB
I agree about Mitre. I am impressed with the movement he gets on the ball. A little rusty but the stuff is there.
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Depending on next year’s rotation and a half of a season’s pitching, he’d be ok at the end of the 2010 rotation or as the long man in the pen. I’m not sure if he’s thrown a straight ball in his two starts or not. They haven’t exactly crushed him. He just hasn’t missed a lot of bats on the 2 strike pitches. Hopefully, that changes. He’s got some good teachers to learn from.
I agree 55. The person they call is just going to spend more time rotting on the bench than anything.
Giuseppe Franco
July 26th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Melky isn’t a “fake” center fielder. He’s just a “fake” everyday player.
===
No, the “fake” is the poster who takes obvious pleasure insulting his own player without ever providing any statistical support for his demeaning, loser comments.
m
July 26th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
bodhi,
Please don’t take offense. That was a slip.
Bring up a real OF. Not a converted IF, and certainly not Shelly Duncan.
You really need to stop being so sensitive about Cabrera. Please.
===
My apologies, I see what you meant.
Sorry, I am more incredulous than sensitive; the guy is having his best season to date and is still four years away from the beginning of the traditional baseball prime years.
You, however, clarified your point, which I misread.
Halladay OR a legitimate quality SP will be on the Yankees roster by August 1st….BANK ON IT !…
( a NEW SP, I mean, of course )
Quade
July 26th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Melky’s having a good season.. If anything the Yanks need a “real” RF..
What Pitcher do the Yanks go for now?.. Pettitte/Mitre and/or Joba isn’t cuttin’ it..
—————————————————-
Just curious, but what 3, 4 and 5 pitchers out there are better right now?
Would you rather have Penny, Smoltz and Buchholz?
We need another SP for depth, but let’s not trivialize how well Joba, Andy and Mitre have pitched since the break.
I was on a RS site,something that’s fun when they’re struggling,and found this.
Wakefield Hurt. Smoltz mediocre.Penny worse.Batting absent.
Bay sinking.YANKEESon the charge….It makes you want to scream
~and this from NY POST~
Bombers Streaking like good old days…..Rivera bails out Bruney.
bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes July 26th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
No, the “fake” is the poster who takes obvious pleasure insulting his own player without ever providing any statistical support for his demeaning, loser comments.
————–
LOL. That’s hilarious and you’re so predictable.
You’ll find all the statistical support you need looking at his career stats and the inevitable fall he was going to take after May.
You are the only one here blind to the facts.
No one should want Padilla on this team. Not only is it well documented that several of his teammates have repeatedly had problems with him, but he a lot of the problems come from the fact that he plays the game personally and not as a team player. One could make the argument that if he helps the team he will me welcome, but he is not nearly good enough to be worth the risk. Who really wants a non-team player that jeopardizes the physical well-being of his teammates and who’s priority is not to win (but his own person agenda) and isnt even THAT good. Not me. That’s not to mention the several more than adequate players for that fifth rotation spot that attainable. But regardless, i would rather getting no one than getting Padilla. The Yankees are better off.
I hope they bring up AJax. Yes he’s cold right now; so was Cervelli, and he hit like 100 points over his minor league avg. in the majors.
I’m not expecting special things from him but he’s the best OF prospect we have and if he’s not ready he’s close and would probably be here in September anyway.
Dat’s okay bodhi. But I have to go put some aloe on these claw marks.
Sorry, bodhi. I like Melky, but I think that when all is said and done he’ll be a fourth outfielder.
Why would the Yankees start Austin Jackson’s arbitration clock already so he can rot on the bench and play a few innings of D?
Now that’s a good point. At what point can they bring him up this year, and not lose an arb. year?
LOL. That’s hilarious and you’re so predictable.
You’ll find all the statistical support you need looking at his career stats and the inevitable fall he was going to take after May.
You are the only one here blind to the facts.
====
Prove it. Produce those stats. Right now. And let’s see his stats compared to his competition – who is NOT Curtis Granderson and Adam Jones, but Brett Gardner.
Come back and compare the two players’ production this season from CF.
You show me superiority for Gardner, whom you have been deifying as a God, and compare them to Cabrera’s, whom you have basically accused of being a complete cipher, with no redeeming qualities.
Here’s your big chance to prove that you are an objective fan, grounded in the reality that is baseball numbers, not some far-fetched subjective emotional notion about a player that you just robotically repeat, regardless of the facts.
Go for it.
haiku-man
July 26th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
I was on a RS site,something that’s fun when they’re struggling,and found this.
Wakefield Hurt. Smoltz mediocre.Penny worse.Batting absent.
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It’s interesting that that particular poster considers 1-4, 7.04 ERA as “mediocre”.
I think the Yanks are going to be forced to start Jackson’s arbitration clock anyways because he has to be added to the 40-man after the season is over.
Bjk it was the blog master that wrote that,crap,not a poster.
Humor me here. What exactly is the arbitration clock issue?
If they add him to the 40 man they have to begin his countdown to payday.. However, after the season they have to move him over anyway or lose him in the Rule 5..
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN
July 26th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
Sorry, bodhi. I like Melky, but I think that when all is said and done he’ll be a fourth outfielder.
===
Everything is relative and contextual.
I have never said Cabrera is a star. If the Yankees had Adam Jones, Melky might be a fourth outfielder (but given the state of the OF, he might actually be the everyday RF).
Cabrera’s competition this season has been Brett Gardner. For some reason, Gardner’s speed has been interpreted to mean, but people who I have to assume don’t understand much about baseball, that he is also an elite player who would be a star, were it not for the Yankees’ inexplicable platoon with the mediocre Melky.
This is some sort of fantasy. My response is most definitely in response to this unbalanced view, and if you read my history here on the subject, you would have to agree.
Cabrera is NOT a fourth outfielder on the 2009 edition Yankees. He is the best option to play regularly. If AJax can make the Yankees next year, that will likely change.
Having said that, Melky is not a schlump, or lazy, or any of these things some in this bizarre group have relegated him to. He also has produced this year nicely this year, and can contribute from both sides of the plate, and play 3 OF positions very credibly.
He is also only 24, not a AAAA 30 year old like Duncan or Cody Ransom.
And THAT is my gripe – NOT that he’s an elite CF.
Sorry CMW. It’s a “what have you done for me lately world” and despite being an excellent regular season starter from 2006-mid 2008 I remember 4 things about your stint in NY:
1. Pathetic 2009 stint (for whatever reason).
2. The fact that he stinks in the playoffs (1-3, 7.58 ERA)
3. He has no guts – reports that he did not want to start Game 4 vs. Cleveland.
4. When his sinker doesn’t work – he doesn’t work.
Good luck to you, Mr. Wang, in all your future endeavors.
I hate rule 5,unless it’s to the Yankees benefit of course.
Wait,
Generally, after 3 years a player is eligible for arbitration, which means way more money than the 1st three years when the team can unilaterally set the salary. The exception is “super-two” players, but I’m not sure about the criteria for super-twos.
bodhi-Fair enough opinion.
But I have to disagree with one thing; he is not the best option to play regularly if Gardner were healthy. Neither are. They were platooned for a reason. Alone both are only perhaps a bit above average but together they made a solid CF.
Hopefully if AJax comes up he can provide that second half to the platoon to make it complete again.
I also think that Gardner has a better chance of being a starter eventually, but he’s not there yet.
Evan my man that’s what I’m talking about,Wang has to go!
Clare-All right, thanks.
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN
try this link on Arb.
http://baseball.suite101.com/a.....tion_works
I hope Wang can come back next year and do well.
Tarheelyank-Thanks too.
bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes July 26th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Prove it. Produce those stats. Right now. And let’s see his stats compared to his competition – who is NOT Curtis Granderson and Adam Jones, but Brett Gardner.
Come back and compare the two players’ production this season from CF.
You show me superiority for Gardner, whom you have been deifying as a God, and compare them to Cabrera’s, whom you have basically accused of being a complete cipher, with no redeeming qualities.
Here’s your big chance to prove that you are an objective fan, grounded in the reality that is baseball numbers, not some far-fetched subjective emotional notion about a player that you just robotically repeat, regardless of the facts.
Go for it.
—————
I get your blind faith for Melky and that’s all wonderful and dandy. Maybe you have a creepy shrine of him somewhere in your house.
However, and this has been my stance since the offseason, we already know what Melky is based on 2000 major league at-bats.
He’s a fourth outfielder. All your blind faith and sensitivity with everything Melky isn’t going to change that.
Gardner may turn out to be the same thing – a fourth outfielder. But he hasn’t had four years to prove that. Melky has. That’s the difference between the two and the reason I want to see Gardner play more.
If Melky has always been the bigger upside guy, then why hasn’t he been able to take a stranglehold of the CF job after four years and beat out a guy who supposedly couldn’t hold his jock?
It’s because Melky is a fourth outfielder. Plain and simple. That’s not a bad thing because he’s still valuable to the team. But he shouldn’t be in the lineup everyday when Gardner returns because he’s not an everyday player.
I’ve seen this movie 1000 times with Melky and I already know the ending. Don’t need to see it for the 1001st time.
Good News! No cowbell give-away in Tampa this week!
Personally I’m not sure why Gardner is in CF when they put Melky in LF, Melky is the superior defender when you combine his harm and ability to track the ball..
Fact is that with Gardner out (with a broken bone that’s at lease 6 weeks with atrophy) Melky is going to assume everyday CF which isn’t too bad but we can’t call up Ajax onto the 40 man as long as Gardner will be back before season’s end, Ajax shouldnt be here until next season earliest.
Yanks can cheaply get a good defending outfielder/basestealer.. They do need another SP, a point was made that Joba/Pettitte/Mitre is the best to roll with but fact is they are unstable and the Yanks need 1 more consistent starter for when Joba meets his innings limit to avoid the verducci rule..
No team with a Melky playing everyday CF has ever won the World Series.
I hope CMW’s trip to Birmingham has a happy ending. Dreamland BBQ is overrated, someone please tell him before it’s too late!
Wait till they come to OUR house AGAIN
July 26th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
bodhi-Fair enough opinion.
But I have to disagree with one thing; he is not the best option to play regularly if Gardner were healthy. Neither are. They were platooned for a reason. Alone both are only perhaps a bit above average but together they made a solid CF.
Hopefully if AJax comes up he can provide that second half to the platoon to make it complete again.
I also think that Gardner has a better chance of being a starter eventually, but he’s not there yet.
====
I like the platoon, I think it keeps both kids fresh. But Gardner needs the platoon more than Melky does, because Melky can hit both LHP and RHP. He’s just a better hitter.
Gardner, for all his speed, wields a pretty feeble bat. He was developing better mechanics in spring training, but still employs the kind of swing you can’t succeed with, unless you are a power hitter. But we’ve been through this on this site. I’m sure there are people who know what I’m referring to.
I would actually like to see both kids in the lineup, because they can play defense and have given us those “small ball” moments that vary the lineup. But with Swisher and Damon on the team, that isn’t going to happen with any regularity.
pat,
That is very good news. Too bad some jokers bring them anyway.
Tarheelyank,
Thanks for the link. Now I almost know what super-2 are. The link says the top 17% of players with over 2 but less then 3 years of service time are eligible for arbitration as super-2s. They mean the top 17% solely based on service time, right? Not performance?
why not bring up Justin Leone? that dud could seriously play every position except catch.
If Gardner’s hitting .275 with 20 SB and 6 triples in about 200 AB’s, he’s showing he’s up to the task of raising his game.
They’re not all star type numbers but he’s hustling and taking steps forward. So maybe they’re not all star type numbers … yet.
If he can keep going with the all-around improvement, I’d like to see what he can do with a full 600+ AB season in 2010 or 2011.
This spring he was just going to be a career 4th OF in the eyes of many, myself included. Now, I think maybe he can change that. Looks like he could become a good starter and add the dimension of a real base stealing threat to this team. A future all-star? Maybe not, but I’ve learned not to say ‘no chance’ with this guy.
Quade-I disagree. Every defensive metric you care to check rates Gardnewr above Melky defensively. Which says a lot, because Melky is good. But Gardner’s speed trumps Melky’s arm and all right/decent speed according to the metrics.
I find the unwarranted hatred for a player as young and as talented as Melky concerning.
“Gardner, for all his speed, wields a pretty feeble bat.”
His OBP is 354, and that’s the important thing. His job is not necessarilyto get hits, it’s to get on base and create havoc. And he’s done that well.
pat, when I was in Florida last month, you could imagine how much of a headache you will have. I had to purchase a bottle of tynols that day.
DailySportsPages July 26th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
I find the unwarranted hatred for a player as young and as talented as Melky concerning.
———–
It’s not “hatred” for any player. Not at all.
The issue is that we’ve seen this movie 1000 times and I’d like to see another one.
Maybe I should play the race card with Gardner like bodhisattva does when someone has the gall to criticize Melky.
I would like to organize wOBA among Center Fielders in all of Major League baseball.
1. Torii Hunter (403)
2. Matt Kemp (384)
3. Shane Victorino (374)
4. Adam Jones (363)
5. Nate Mclouth
6. Mike Cameron
7. Curtis Granderson
8. Franklin Guttierez
9. Kosuke Fokudome
10. Michael Bourn
11. Cody Ross
12. Melky Cabrera (339)
13. Jacoby Ellsbury
14. Marlon Byrd
15. Aaoron Rowand
16. Nyjer Morgan
17. Colby Rasmus
18. Grady Seizmore
19. BJ Upton
20. Vernon Wells
21. Chris Young
offensively, Melky is outperforming a lot of very good ballplayers at a very young age.
Nick in SF in Ocean City, MD
July 26th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
No team with a Melky playing everyday CF has ever won the World Series.
aren’t you forgetting Melky Mantle and Melky Rivers ?
“His OBP is 354, and that’s the important thing. His job is not necessarilyto get hits, it’s to get on base and create havoc. And he’s done that well.”
That OBP will not remain at .354, and we all know that. Pretending that Gardner will maintain a .354 OBP over the course of a Major League season is ludicrous. His stats are average because he is only exposed to right handed pitchers, where he is decent. Against left handers, he is atrocious.
Melky’s stronger side is his left side. He is never allowed to play against right handers despite it being his stronger side. So his numbers, are not as good as they should be. Still, he outperforms Gardner from both sides.
Pitchers will start to challenge Gardner with 3-1 fastballs and he will continue to pop out or strike out.
Clare
Yes. It’s cumulative time. Not performance.
It can be very confusing. I think that what it means is the Yankees can call a up Ajax and not lose a year an arbitration year.
By the way, I was just noticing that Mariano’s ERA is down to 2.11 and there are still two months left in the regular season. Not bad after that rough stretch he had.
Melky Cabrera has an OPS+ of 105. That is DESPITE ONLY PLAYING AGAINST HIS WEAK SIDE.
Gardner is at 99 despite having less at bats and playing only against his strong side. I mean, Melky is clearly the better hitter. Gardner fields better, but not to the point where you excuse sitting Melky, who is a switch hitter who can drive the ball more consistently.
What is it? Is it because Melky isn’t white?
“That OBP will not remain at .354, and we all know that. Pretending that Gardner will maintain a .354 OBP over the course of a Major League season is ludicrous.”
Had no idea you were a scout. What an ability to predict the future!
Gotta go. Continue this debate w/o me.
Here are Melky Cabrera’s 2009 statistics:
.287/.352/.434
Here are his stats from CF in 2009:
.300/.353/.460
Melky Cabrera’s 2009 splits:
as a LHB vs. RHP:
.283/.338/.408
as a RHB vs. LHP:
.291/.365/.488 (OPS+120)
His batting as a CF finds him in the top 10 among MLB CFers (going into today, he was either ninth or tied for eighth).
Good luck refuting reality.
“What is it? Is it because Melky isn’t white?”
Congratulations for dragging this to the level of the Neanderthals.
DailySportsPages
July 26th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
Melky Cabrera has an OPS+ of 105. That is DESPITE ONLY PLAYING AGAINST HIS WEAK SIDE.
Gardner is at 99 despite having less at bats and playing only against his strong side. I mean, Melky is clearly the better hitter. Gardner fields better, but not to the point where you excuse sitting Melky, who is a switch hitter who can drive the ball more consistently.
What is it? Is it because Melky isn’t white?
====
I don’t know, but somebody here suggested Melky get a crew cut and frown rather than stick out his tongue… maybe that would win hearts, eh? The heck with the walkoffs, we don’t need ‘em.
A lot of you tend to forget that Melky Cabrera is younger than Gardner and has much better upside. Brett Gardner was a junior in college when Melky started his Major League Career.
We all think Melky sucks because we have seen him for so long with limited improvement. The kid should still be molding his hitting skills in the minor leagues. He was given only 288 career at bats in AAA to develop.
He has never been allowed to fully develop in an environment
where he does not fear being sent down.
Some people think of baseball players as robots. This is where my qualms with Peter Abraham lay. He knows how difficult it is to be away from home or be in constant fear of being sent down. Melky has friends here, he had the job given to him at 22, he still was not ready. Then, all of a sudden, the flavor of the month gets called up because he struggles. Young players struggles. That just happens.
I still maintain that this franchise’s fans do not have the patience to watch players develop. Melky Cabrera is 24 years old. Gardner is a year older. And people have MORE patience with Brett because he “deserves a chance”. Does he now? Where was Melky’s chance? Or did you all expect a 22-24 year old kid to put up all star numbers.
Give the Melky sucks talk a rest. All of you should be ashamed of yourselves. I hate crying racism but that is the only thing I can think of.
all this Melky > < Brett stuff is interesting.
Like Spy vs. Spy – everyone has their favorite. It's quite Mad.
I'm waiting for the pro-Brett side to say Melky has never hit a triple with a broken thumb.
Of course the pro-Melky side would say Brett has never eaten peanuts in the hotel room of a gubernatorial candidate.
Melky’s stronger side is his left side. He is never allowed to play against right handers despite it being his stronger side.
————–
Really?
That’s baloney. Melky has 188 at-bats this season against right handed pitchers.
Gardner has a grand total of 200 at-bats on the season. So you are dead wrong.
In fact, Melky’s numbers are actually better hitting from the right side than the left this season:
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....statType=1
“Had no idea you were a scout. What an ability to predict the future!
Gotta go. Continue this debate w/o me.”
It doesn’t take a scout to realize this. Light hitting outfielders do not get walked. Look at Juan Pierre career wise. You can be as patient as you want but you WILL GET CHALLENGED.
He has just been ridiculously lucky. He has a .400 Slugging only because he occasionally hits triples. Otherwise he would be at .370. He won’t get pitched to.
“That OBP will not remain at .354, and we all know that. Pretending that Gardner will maintain a .354 OBP over the course of a Major League season is ludicrous.”
are you Brett Gardner?
DailySportsPages
July 26th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
That OBP will not remain at .354, and we all know that. Pretending that Gardner will maintain a .354 OBP over the course of a Major League season is ludicrous. His stats are average because he is only exposed to right handed pitchers, where he is decent. Against left handers, he is atrocious.
——————————————————-
This year Gardner’s at .267 with a .365 OBP in his 45 at bats against left handed pitchers. I wouldn’t qualify that as “atrocious”.
~OMG, just heard the sports anchor say that, the (Cards) La Russa’s contract is up soon,and the Cards wanted to show him,their serious about protecting Pujols,by getting Halladay.
~LaRussa has the local media under his control.Say something bad about him or a favorite player,and you don’t get access.
~He would be toast in NY!
Really?
That’s baloney. Melky has 188 at-bats this season against right handed pitchers.
Gardner has a grand total of 200 at-bats on the season. So you are dead wrong.
In fact, Melky’s numbers are actually better hitting from the right side than the left this season:
========================
Some people are dumber than i thought. Sure use this years stats! Don’t use his career numbers!
He has played so inconsistently from that side this year of course his stats are going to suffer dude. Switch hitters are creatures of habit.
Career .276/.334 vs RHP
.258/.327 vs LHP
http://www.baseball-reference......er&t=b
DailySportsPages
July 26th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
I would like to organize wOBA among Center Fielders in all of Major League baseball.
1. Torii Hunter (403)
2. Matt Kemp (384)
3. Shane Victorino (374)
4. Adam Jones (363)
5. Nate Mclouth
6. Mike Cameron
7. Curtis Granderson
8. Franklin Guttierez
9. Kosuke Fokudome
10. Michael Bourn
11. Cody Ross
12. Melky Cabrera (339)
13. Jacoby Ellsbury
14. Marlon Byrd
15. Aaoron Rowand
16. Nyjer Morgan
17. Colby Rasmus
18. Grady Seizmore
19. BJ Upton
20. Vernon Wells
21. Chris Young
offensively, Melky is outperforming a lot of very good ballplayers at a very young age.
======
Being a switch hitter, and producing from both sides, is also significant. He’s been a better RHB this year, which is a real turnaround. He was barely there as a RHB. It makes him a much more legitimate player and argues well for his ability to play every day.
In a “can you top this moment” – tomorrow night Melky will hit a triple with TWO broken thumbs.
This year Gardner’s at .267 with a .365 OBP in his 45 at bats against left handed pitchers. I wouldn’t qualify that as “atrocious”.
=====================
FOURTY FIVE AT BATS. Why do you think he only has 45 at bats?
http://www.baseball-reference......er&t=b
Career .217/.289 hitter left handed vs lefties.
“Being a switch hitter, and producing from both sides, is also significant. He’s been a better RHB this year, which is a real turnaround. He was barely there as a RHB. It makes him a much more legitimate player and argues well for his ability to play every day.”
Exactly. Many people do not understand how difficult it is to be a switch hitter and to hit well from both sides. Platooning Melky has hurt his development.
My argument is, Melky should be the starting center fielder because he is younger and better. Simple. Let him develop.
Anyone who expected him to perform at 21-24 with 288 at bats under his belt is a complete and total fool.
288 at bats in AAA*
Was there this much debate over who should fill-in for Alex and Jorge when they were on the DL?
I like Brett but he’s Brett Gardner, not Torii Hunter. Replacement level doesn’t require a HOFer.
This year Gardner’s at .267 with a .365 OBP in his 45 at bats against left handed pitchers. I wouldn’t qualify that as “atrocious”.
=====
No, he’s improved vs. LHP. The point is, these are young players. Melky is refuting the iron-clad notion among some here – like Giuseppe Franco and even the blog writer – that he can’t improve. Why wouldn’t a 24 year old be unable to improve? He has, this season. How is he still in a free fall? He’s not – the facts don’t support the pessimism.
Gardner’s ABs vs. LHP are low because the manager thinks Cabrera is his best option there, and the numbers support that. The tricky thing is to get both players enough ABs so they can actually develop as they contribute. It’s no good when one misses 2-3 days. It doesn’t keep them “fresh”, it makes their bats go stale.
Like I said, I would prefer to see them both play more regularly.
“Was there this much debate over who should fill-in for Alex and Jorge when they were on the DL?”
There’s still debate at who should replace Jorge now because some people think Cervelli is a better catcher.
“Was there this much debate over who should fill-in for Alex and Jorge when they were on the DL?
I like Brett but he’s Brett Gardner, not Torii Hunter. Replacement level doesn’t require a HOFer.”
That takes me back as well. What is it about Melky Cabrera that people dislike. You got a guy playing 5 points above Replacement Level, his UZR has ranged from -1 to 5 all year, he has been solid, and he is well liked and not a problem child.
I understand Gardner is the prototypical, white, fast, “gritty” ball player, but look at the numbers. He just is not that good.
And sure he can improve, but Melky is a year younger and was rushed to the big leagues and hasn’t been given the opportunity to improve.
All of this Melky hatred is inexplicable. There has to be a reason.
Wow. So this has devolved into a war of words.
Melky’s a lot of things, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone, even bodhi, call him talented. That’s a new one.
And if you can’t understand why Gardner plays CF when he’s in the game go talk to Girardi, Pete, or anyone else of position in the game of baseball.
Melky Gardner is a very nice player. Individually, neither is vastly superior to the other where you can trash the other.
Give it up guys. Cheer for both.
“All of this Melky hatred is inexplicable. There has to be a reason.”
What do you expect on here? It’s good for Melky. Because he’s joined A-Rod, Jorge, Jeter, Cano, Mo, Matsui, Damon, Wang, AJ, Hughes and Joba when it comes to hate. It just means according to this board he’s a true Yankee.
Remember when Melky promised to hit the home run for that sick girl and then GIDP’d and struck out twice?
That was sad.
“Wow. So this has devolved into a war of words.
Melky’s a lot of things, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone, even bodhi, call him talented. That’s a new one.
And if you can’t understand why Gardner plays CF when he’s in the game go talk to Girardi, Pete, or anyone else of position in the game of baseball.
Melky Gardner is a very nice player. Individually, neither is vastly superior to the other where you can trash the other.
Give it up guys. Cheer for both.”
Brett Gardner is very fast and plays great defense. He can’t hit to save his life. He needs someone to get him on base (pitcher HBP, walk or pinch runner)
Pete is not a person of position in baseball. He is a beat writer who reports what other people in the position of baseball say. And sometimes, people take his opinion to be gospel when he has no fucking clue what he is talking about – like with Melky Cabrera and Alex Rodriguez.
Brett Gardner is a good 4th outfielder. Melky is a switch hitting outfielder with developing power and a developing stick. Giving up on him,despite being younger, is foolish.
Gardner’s ABs vs. LHP are low because the manager thinks Cabrera is his best option there, and the numbers support that. The tricky thing is to get both players enough ABs so they can actually develop as they contribute. It’s no good when one misses 2-3 days. It doesn’t keep them “fresh”, it makes their bats go stale.
Like I said, I would prefer to see them both play more regularly.
———–
No, Girardi plays Melky over Gardner against lefties because he’s an extreme matchup fiend. He does that too much and it doesn’t stop with this duo.
That’s why he plays Cody Ransom over Erik Hinske against lefty pitchers and he takes Coke out of a game and uses Aceves to pitch to a right hander hitting .180 on the season.
That’s what Girardi does.
“What do you expect on here? It’s good for Melky. Because he’s joined A-Rod, Jorge, Jeter, Cano, Mo, Matsui, Damon, Wang, AJ, Hughes and Joba when it comes to hate. It just means according to this board he’s a true Yankee.”
This board is a complete joke then. Support every player who wears the pinstripes, don’t hate anyone inexplicably and ignore stats.
Exactly. Many people do not understand how difficult it is to be a switch hitter and to hit well from both sides. Platooning Melky has hurt his development.
My argument is, Melky should be the starting center fielder because he is younger and better. Simple. Let him develop.
Anyone who expected him to perform at 21-24 with 288 at bats under his belt is a complete and total fool.
==============
Yea, particularly tough to keep your bat warm from both sides if you don’t play fairly regularly.
RIght – he was rushed up here to fill a hole and lost out big-time on his development. I’ve always considered his bat full of potential, and he may be starting to scratch the surface this year.
Hopefully, the power continues to develop more, too. He has hit some no-doubt-about-it shots this season.
“Remember when Melky promised to hit the home run for that sick girl and then GIDP’d and struck out twice?
That was sad.
”
Oh shut up. Please. God.
“No, Girardi plays Melky over Gardner against lefties because he’s an extreme matchup fiend. He does that too much and it doesn’t stop with this duo.
That’s why he plays Cody Ransom over Erik Hinske against lefty pitchers and he takes Coke out of a game and uses Aceves to pitch to a right hander hitting .180 on the season.
That’s what Girardi does.”
It’s not because Gardner is a career .217/.289 hitter against left handers?
Is MaCallister a legit prospect? Why isn’t he being considered for the 5th spot?
“Yea, particularly tough to keep your bat warm from both sides if you don’t play fairly regularly.
RIght – he was rushed up here to fill a hole and lost out big-time on his development. I’ve always considered his bat full of potential, and he may be starting to scratch the surface this year.
Hopefully, the power continues to develop more, too. He has hit some no-doubt-about-it shots this season.”
The kid has 288 career at bats in Triple A. TWO HUNDER AND EIGHTY EIGHT. That isn’t even half of a season.
He was rushed to the majors, never allowed to develop. He was always in fear of being sent down. The kid’s bat is special, and he is just that – a kid.
No, Girardi plays Melky over Gardner against lefties because he’s an extreme matchup fiend. He does that too much and it doesn’t stop with this duo.
=====
Girardi IS a matchup fiend, but you just repeat truisms with no regard for results.
Cabrera is a .291 hitter from the right side. What part of that don’t you understand? He’s the better option against lefties this season. The object is to win games.
“Is Mcallister a legit prospect? Why isn’t he being considered for the 5th spot?”
He is in AA.
It’s not because Gardner is a career .217/.289 hitter against left handers?
———–
Maybe you haven’t noticed but he’s a different player than last season. His numbers this season against lefties aren’t too shabby.
And I noticed you didn’t bother responding further to the “Melky never plays against right handers” gibberish that you made up awhile ago.
Gardner was having a good season. Hitting 275 with a 354 obp and 20 stolen bases. He has great range in the outfield too. LOL @ these Melky groupies looking at every possible stat to rip gardner and praise melky.
DailySportsPages
July 27th, 2009 at 12:02 am
It’s not because Gardner is a career .217/.289 hitter against left handers?
————————————————-
Small sample size. He had 24 at bats against lefties in 2008 and only had 3 hits.
As I posted before, this year he’s at .267 with a .365 OBP in his 45 at bats against left handed pitchers.
To quote career numbers for a kid with 69 at bats is a bit short-sighted.
Beejay,
It’s amazing. Unlike any phenomena I’ve ever seen.
You could rip A-rod, Jeter, and Cano up and down and you still won’t get the kind of backlash that comes from mentioning anything bad about Melky.
(this is not directed at you, bodhi, my gourmand friend!)
Melky and Gardner should both get the majority of playing time in the outfield. Swisher should be the one with the unsteady playing time.
That’s why he plays Cody Ransom over Erik Hinske against lefty pitchers and he takes Coke out of a game and uses Aceves to pitch to a right hander hitting .180 on the season.
====
In Hinske’s case, Joe might want to look at his 2009 numbers vs. LHP: .321/.441/.571 in 28 AB, with a 183 OPS+. Career wise, he’s not impressive, however. But those are some pretty WOW numbers.
Gotta love the race card fiends here.
Never said I hated Melky. I don’t hate him at all. I’ve said a number of times that he’s a valuable player for them as a fourth outfielder.
But I know what Melky is by now. I’ve seen it for four years. I’d like to see Gardner play more when he returns.
That’s not such a ridiculous stance. What’s ridiculous is that any fair criticism of the guy has to be interpreted as racist.
It’s an old and tired game and I’m not going to play it.
“Melky Gardner is a very nice player. Individually, neither is vastly superior to the other where you can trash the other.”
Melky Whoever will hold down the fort just fine until the force that Melky Gardner is can be pencilled in again.
I am with GF on this one about Melky. Plus, I like what I have seen to far from Gardner.
And the race card is lame. It kills me how it always gets mentioned, especially when people bring up Cabrera or Cano.
Tidrow
July 27th, 2009 at 12:14 am
Melky and Gardner should both get the majority of playing time in the outfield. Swisher should be the one with the unsteady playing time.
===
I think so. We have enough slug and OBP around them. Besides, if they can both get on base at a .350 clip, that’s more than fine. The upgrade is outfield defense is worth the OPS loss from Swish.
Besides, it’s absurd to think either young guy is going to produce off the bench. The odd time they do is just that – the odd time. They need to play to develop and stay sharp.
“Gotta love the race card fiends here.
Never said I hated Melky. I don’t hate him at all. I’ve said a number of times that he’s a valuable player for them as a fourth outfielder.
But I know what Melky is by now. I’ve seen it for four years. I’d like to see Gardner play more when he returns.
That’s not such a ridiculous stance. What’s ridiculous is that any fair criticism of the guy has to be interpreted as racist.
It’s an old and tired game and I’m not going to play it.”
You know what Melky is? 21 year old kid rushed to the big leaugues? Under pressure to perform for fear of being sent down? 288 career at bats at AAA?
You know what Melky is?
Dude, what is the NY lottery numbers for tomorrow night?
lol, pat!
I wonder if Melky Jackson will moonwalk through the hi-five line.
I don’t know whether to be pleased or offended. But mlb.com has been archiving ALL the homeruns at NYS:
http://mlb.mlb.com/search/medi.....e_hr_watch
And the race card is lame. It kills me how it always gets mentioned, especially when people bring up Cabrera or Cano.
====
Well, it’s mentioned because words like “lazy” “stupid” “out of shape” “no BB IQ” are reserved for only them. And these terms are used OVER and OVER again.
It’s one thing to say, Cano is frustrating with RISP. he swings at outside pitches, etc. Those are facts. It’s the charachter assassination, using terms that are associated with bigotry toward latinos, that raise people’s radar. It’s important to distinguish between the two.
Giuseppe Franco
July 27th, 2009 at 12:16 am
Gotta love the race card fiends here.
Never said I hated Melky. I don’t hate him at all. I’ve said a number of times that he’s a valuable player for them as a fourth outfielder.
But I know what Melky is by now. I’ve seen it for four years. I’d like to see Gardner play more when he returns.
That’s not such a ridiculous stance. What’s ridiculous is that any fair criticism of the guy has to be interpreted as racist.
It’s an old and tired game and I’m not going to play it.
====
No, in your case, I don’t see racism. I do see a weird bias, however, and a kind of investment in his failure. You don’t even look at numbers – you just insist on your insular Melky world where he just keeps falling and falling through space.
Whatever, I guess. His numbers speak for themselves.
DailySportsPages
July 27th, 2009 at 12:22 am
“Gotta love the race card fiends here.
Never said I hated Melky. I don’t hate him at all. I’ve said a number of times that he’s a valuable player for them as a fourth outfielder.
But I know what Melky is by now. I’ve seen it for four years. I’d like to see Gardner play more when he returns.
That’s not such a ridiculous stance. What’s ridiculous is that any fair criticism of the guy has to be interpreted as racist.
It’s an old and tired game and I’m not going to play it.”
You know what Melky is? 21 year old kid rushed to the big leaugues? Under pressure to perform for fear of being sent down? 288 career at bats at AAA?
You know what Melky is?
Dude, what is the NY lottery numbers for tomorrow night?
=====
Don’t argue with the man. He KNOWS. That’s clearly enough on a baseball forum.
You know what Melky is? 21 year old kid rushed to the big leaugues? Under pressure to perform for fear of being sent down? 288 career at bats at AAA?
You know what Melky is?
Dude, what is the NY lottery numbers for tomorrow night?
————–
You know what makes your argument illogical?
Major league experience. Melky has four years of it playing almost everyday.
And don’t give me the “he was under pressure to perform” garbage.
Melky became the starter in 2006 because both Matsui and Sheffield went down for most the season. There was nobody else.
It was very similar to the Yanks promoting Cervelli in May when Molina and Posada went down.
It’s amazing how many excuses people come up with trying to blindly defend the guy.
Yanks have the best record in the AL and the lead by 2.5 in the best division in baseball or I have I missed something based on this thread?
-dennis
Whatever, I guess. His numbers speak for themselves.
————-
We agree 100% on that – which is why Girardi doesn’t want to play him everyday.
bodhi,
Sorry, one numbnut making a connection a long time ago between lazy and Dominican players doesn’t validate using the race card.
And I think most people who were raised on tropical islands are laid back. Which can sometimes be taken for lazy.
Cano had his quirks where he didn’t hustle down the line, break for a ball hit near him, and didn’t do certain things like taking fielding practice when he was supposed to. But you don’t see that now. I think he’s learned that you can’t get by on talent alone, and if you want to earn respect from your peers you have to work hard at the game.
Cano now is much different from Cano 2 years ago, and that has nothing to do with race.
m
July 27th, 2009 at 12:12 am
Beejay,
It’s amazing. Unlike any phenomena I’ve ever seen.
You could rip A-rod, Jeter, and Cano up and down and you still won’t get the kind of backlash that comes from mentioning anything bad about Melky.
(this is not directed at you, bodhi, my gourmand friend!)
=======
Not directed at me, but I’ve fought the anti-Jeter, anti-ARod, anti-Posada, anit-Cano, anti-Joba, anti-Hughes wars all over the internet.
I’m an equal opportunity defender of players who help the Yankees win. I got “thrown out” of Yankee Stadium for a brawl with an anti-ARod guy in my section (during 2006 postseason). The guy was at it all year, and had it coming to him.
The guard escorted me out, but actually gave me a better seat downstairs. He told me ‘never let that guy know I didn’t throw you out. He’s a pain in the blank…and I will hear about it..’
dennis-Costanza July 27th, 2009 at 12:30 am
Yanks have the best record in the AL and the lead by 2.5 in the best division in baseball or I have I missed something based on this thread?
-dennis
————
Meh, bodhisattva once again got his undies in a bind over Mel’s completely innocent comment over the Yanks’ CF spot vacated by Garner.
Things just kind of spiraled out of control after that.
And furthermore, Cabrera & Gardner both have reputations for being hard workers. So I still don’t understand what race has to do with it.
I think many here will say the race card is a cop out just as it is anytime it’s used.
dennis,
It was my fault.
But we didn’t want to be too gleeful about how the team is playing. Wouldn’t want to offend you.
GF.
I am a Sox fan as you know so I am well aware of things getting out of control.
See: Fan throwing a very good slice of pizza at another fan.
-dennis
Mel.
If I was offended easily I would have been long gone after my first couple posts 1.5 years ago.
I am in Houston this week (I think you once mentioned you lived there or in the area). I am in meetings there until Friday.
I would rather pull my bottom lip over my head.
-dennis
Small m: now I’m confused, was it your fault that ‘dailysportspages’ was a jerk, or is that still on him?
m
July 27th, 2009 at 12:31 am
bodhi,
Sorry, one numbnut making a connection a long time ago between lazy and Dominican players doesn’t validate using the race card.
And I think most people who were raised on tropical islands are laid back. Which can sometimes be taken for lazy.
====
If you would like to discuss this with me, feel free to email me. I am not going to get into this on this forum. BTW: I lived in Hawaii for 3 years. My dad was an immigration attorney and we hated to leave the friendly/beautiful confines of Hawaii, but my parents missed their families and NY. I know all about the “laid back” Island people.
I think Rickey Henderson will play the outfield for league minimum. Sign him up. Maybe he can teach Melky and his bromance partner Cano a thing or two about hustle.
bodhi,
We can drop it. But if you have any special recipe requests, I’ll be glad to send them to you.
The latest craze in the family is making gyoza (potstickers). Yummm…
Melky doesn’t hustle? Wow!
m
July 27th, 2009 at 12:51 am
bodhi,
We can drop it. But if you have any special recipe requests, I’ll be glad to send them to you.
The latest craze in the family is making gyoza (potstickers). Yummm…
===
Gyoza is a winner – I’m all about Gyoza when I go Japanese. Can’t imagine what they’d taste like if you make them from scratch..Thanks again for the lumpia recipe. My new challenge is trying to make dosai. I am lately on a Southern Indian roll. Can’t get it quite like the natives, but that’s to be expected…
I guess David Wright and Mike Piazza are from the islands as well being that they soetimes don’t or didn’t but it down the line.
sometimes=soetimes bust= but
I was kind of disappointed in Rickey’s HOF speech.
No 3rd person references.
DailySportsPages
July 27th, 2009 at 12:52 am
Melky doesn’t hustle? Wow!
==================
Some idiot on here the other day said he needs a conditioning program….
Great research, BTW. I doubt many people knew that stuff.
Well, I think tomorrow I will actually try to find a stimulating baseball discussion where people actually know how to support their points with actual numbers, if you know what I mean.
bodhi,
Will send you the original made with pork. Then you can just substitute the meat with something vegetarian.
What is dosai?
YOU GOTTA GO DOWN BOHDI
PEOPLE TRUSTED YOU AND THEY DIED
THE GAME IS OVER
Roger Maris – The REAL HR King
July 27th, 2009 at 12:50 am
I think Rickey Henderson will play the outfield for league minimum. Sign him up. Maybe he can teach Melky and his bromance partner Cano a thing or two about hustle.
=====
Well, Melky could teach Rickey a thing or two about how to track a fly ball.
They’re surfers…The Ex Presidents are SUFERS
VIa Con Dios
Who on the 40 man roster is a centerfielder in the minors?
YOU LET EEM G’oh’AY!!!!!
We’ll get eem win ee comes beck een!!
m
July 27th, 2009 at 1:04 am
bodhi,
Will send you the original made with pork. Then you can just substitute the meat with something vegetarian.
What is dosai?
===
It’s a large crepe, made with rice flour, lentil flour or wheat flour, filled with potatoes onion, cilantro, chick pea nuts, and indian spices. You put coconut chutney on it, and it’s insane good.
It also comes with a spicy soup called sambar. The crepe has delicate little holes in it, so it’s crispy, if made right. You have to like spicy food to go for it, though. They are addictive. I call them the Indian pizza.
He’s not coming back
Yes! Send original, thanks. I’m on the verge of quitting my job of five years, and am looking forward to getting my gourmand hat on, drinking beer and watching baseball, among other things.
If any of you ever come to Los Angeles, Point Break Live is an absolute must-see.
Will do.
Change of pace topics:
-Halladay
-100 wins, can or no can?
-Road trip predictions?
Tidrow
July 27th, 2009 at 1:08 am
Who on the 40 man roster is a centerfielder in the minors?
====
No one except Damon, Melk, Gardner. Pena – if we’re now counting him among the CF.
DING DING DING!!
BJK COME ON DOWN AND COLLECT YOUR PRIZE
HAH
I too love that film
Sorry for that nonsense I’m bored and cant sleep.
Among others…Tom Sizemore is AWESOMe in that movie.
DING DING DING!!
BJK COME ON DOWN AND COLLECT YOUR PRIZE
HAH
I too love that film
Sorry for that nonsense I’m bored and cant sleep.
Among others…Tom Sizemore is AWESOMe in that movie.
Change of pace topics:
-Halladay phils
-100 wins, can or no can? can do
-Road trip predictions? 6 n 3
“I think Rickey Henderson will play the outfield for league minimum. Sign him up. Maybe he can teach Melky and his bromance partner Cano a thing or two about hustle.”
corny.
Okay enough.
Via Con Dios
CUE MUSIC
I’m out.
Roger Maris – The REAL HR King
July 27th, 2009 at 12:50 am
I think Rickey Henderson will play the outfield for league minimum. Sign him up. Maybe he can teach Melky and his bromance partner Cano a thing or two about hustle.
————————————————————
Henderson was benched and fined more than once for dogging it on the field.
Not that it means anything (the only thing that matters is the standings), but here’s how the the top 3 teams in the AL East are doing in comparison to the expected W-L records.
Yankees (+4)
Red Sox (even)
Rays (-3)
Just a little follow up to the Pythagorean conversation that was going on earlier.
Oh my, it’s this:
Yankees (+3)
Red Sox (even)
Rays (-4)
espn.com has really vamped their standings pages.
They’ve got all kinds of new features in addition to the one I like, team vs. team grid. A baseball RPI index, vs. division standings, and an all-time history index, where I found the page for the Yankees. That’s a lot of playoff history there:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/history/teams/_/team/nyy
Christina -
I know this was hours ago, and you’re probably long gone by now, but yes, I was at both games in Cuse, and I was talking about that game. Pena played a pretty solid center in that one, which was most of my reasoning behind my semi vote of confidence for him. that’s a pretty big field at alliance stadium, and he covered it well.
Crossing my fingers for Wang. I hope the yankees treat him with more respect than they did in the past off season. I think he can still come back with proper rehab. He was just getting back into rhythm and his velocity was on a steady rise just before the shoulder problem struck.
And btw the foot injury was a freak accident, it could and does happen to anyone who runs the bases.