Should Aceves be the No. 5 starter?
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Aug 11, 2009 
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Alfredo Aceves threw innings and 37 innings against Boston on Friday. He had two days off then threw four innings and 42 pitches against Toronto yesterday.
Now he’s going to need at least three days off.
Might the Yankees be preparing him to become the No. 5 starter? Just throwing it out there. Seems a little suspicious that with an otherwise rested bullpen in a close game, Joe Girardi left Aceves out there for four innings last night.
I’d rather use Aceves in that role and let David Robertson and/or Mark Melancon pitch more meaningful innings in relief than see Mitre or any of the other scrap-heap pickups (Ortiz, Gaudin, Towers, Hirsh, etc.) start games.
The Yankees have less talent on the roster today with Mitre and Gaudin around then they did last week. That a pitcher is capable of throwing 80-100 pitches doesn’t mean he should be.
This is their best staff:
Starters: Sabathia, Burnett, Chamberlain, Pettitte, Aceves.
Closer: Rivera.
Primary set-up men: Hughes, Coke, Bruney.
Secondary set-up men: Robertson, Melancon.
Long man: Gaudin or Mitre.
Then come the playoffs, you drop Aceves back into the bullpen, dump the long man and off you go. The key to this idea is Brian Bruney being able to pitch effectively in the seventh inning.
But why mess up a good thing when you can throw in other options and see which one may stick in the rotation ala Gaudin?
Mitre : pitcher as Ransom : positional player. As to both, Cashman/Girardi are utterly myopic.
mitres defense lost the game not his pitching last night
Stick Mitre into the bullpen.
Yes please, Mitre is just awful
But if you dump aceves back in the pen, then who’s ur 4th starter? Cuz we know by the post season Jobas not in the rotation anymore
The big issue for me is Aceves’ health. He had the sore shoulder after the Minnesota start…
Can Aceves’ body handle going from the bullpen to the rotation like that?
If it can, then count me on board, now that Gaudin is in the bullpen–you don’t have to worry about the bullpen collapsing b/c the short guys are overused.
Pete, I completely agree with you and have thought that Aceves should be in the rotation since Wang was hurt.
Since Girardi hasn’t called me to ask what I think and is not likely to make that call it doesn’t mean much. And, since the Yankees have the best record in baseball and can most likely continue to play .600 baseball with Zippy the Chimp pitching every 5 days it isn’t likely to change either. It sure did look like Aceves was being prepped to start, though, by the 4 innings last night (and he was just as brillian as he was agains the Sox).
If Aceves is gonna pitch 4 innings in relief of whoever the 5th starter is, then I’d rather have Aceves just be the 5th starter.
I didn’t see the game last night, but when I saw the box and saw that Aceves went 4, my first reaction is that he’s being stretched out.
I have no problem with that.
not first!
Jeloij, I guess you know something that we don’t know since many of us do not believe Joba will be in the pen come October especially the way he has pitched recently. They’ll spot start in place of him and skip starts in September if they maintain or expand this lead.
Whether it’s Gaudin or Aceves I am fine with either. Mitre simply cannot continue to pitch 5 innings and give up 4-5 runs. Almost any pitcher can give that every game. Aceves I think is best situated in the long role because he can pitch mulitple innings in a close game. So I think I would rather have him in tough spots where he has come thru rather than worrying about getting a fifth starter who goes 5 scoreless. If Gaudin could consistently give you 5-6 innings with 3 earned runs you have to feel the Yankees have the advantage in most matchups. I mean Sydney Ponson was doing better than Mitre has last year.
This is a tough one. I like Ace in the bullpen, but I do see his value as a 5th starter. Mitre is horrible and I don’t think he should be sent out there again. Should they give Gaudin a try? I don’t know and I refuse to think about it anymore because it’s making my head hurt.
I make this move right now. Put Ace in the rotation.
September is right around the corner and the reinforcements are coming.
I think what I’ve seen of Mitre he would make a decent short reliever. It seems his 2nd and 3rd times through the order he struggles a lot more. If he can harness the sinker and become a 7th inning type we can survive Ace’s promotion to the rotation until Melancon gets back.
I’m not for dumping Mitre just yet since he appears to be a good 12th man on the staff. We need to see what Gaudin can do here too.
Gaudin should start. Leave Aceves where he is.
Besides, once the rosters expand in 3 weeks, the #5 is insignificant. You can make it a bullpen game.
“You can be fat and old and out of shape and be a competitive golfer”
actually george foreman is fat and old and out of shape and he would still knock the crap out of you even though you are not fat and not old and presumably not out of shape.
watch with the old jokes.
gb7 might be insulted
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
August 11th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
The big issue for me is Aceves’ health. He had the sore shoulder after the Minnesota start…
Can Aceves’ body handle going from the bullpen to the rotation like that?
If it can, then count me on board, now that Gaudin is in the bullpen–you don’t have to worry about the bullpen collapsing b/c the short guys are overused.
——————————————-
Rebecca, the only way you can associate his sor shoulder to that start is by guessing. The real source of the problem was much more likely getting used to the daily grind in the bullpen and the frequent warm ups and sit downs. Ace has always been a starter and isn’t used to that.
Starters have an easier time with injury than relievers, have you noticed that? It’s because they are on a standard scheduled of pitching every 5 days with a single bullpen session in between. Mo, who is the best ever, simply doesn’t throw unless he’s going into a game but he can do that effectively since he only throws one pitch and has far and away the greatest command of that pitch as anyone has in baseball history. Ace has (and uses) 4 pitches, it’s much tougher to be sharp in the ‘pen with all of them.
It is a fine idea. Last night shows he can handle length.
It is a fine idea. Last night shows he can handle length.
Makes sense to me Pete.
At this point, I think making Ace the 5th starter makes the most sense.
You can put him back in the bullpen for the post-season.
I think Mitre’s last start is Saturday. They will have an off day on the 20th, allowing them to skip him for the Boston series.
They have another off day on the 24th, allowing them to put Ace in the rotation.
In the meantime, they can use him 2-3 times to stretch him out and get him ready for the rotation.
Depending the on lead, off days, and how they want to skip Joba in Late-August and September, Ace can probably start 8-10 games.
That’s what she said
hey Erica, should I repost my lineup guess over here?
I would think so. Aceves is more valuable as a starter, and the way they are using him in relief renders him unavailable most days. Gaudin should be the long man and Mitre should continue his rehabbing in the minors.
repost
saucY – sticK witH sergiO
August 11th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
rover
August 11th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
For the sake of argument:
What is the difference between a game and a sport? is there one?
—-
if you can casually drink a beer while playing, it’s a game. hence the following are games of skill, not sports:
golf
darts
badminton
horse
billiards
bowling
nascar
horseshoes
quoits
poker (though espn loves airing this… look at those atheletes!! smoking cigars!!)
MG: Points well taken.
I don’t think it’s too fair to group Gaudin with the Mite’s and Ortiz’s and Tower’s of the world either. He’s 26, has had success as a starter and reliever, proved himself pretty well in the AL with Oakland and actually would be a Type B FA if he was a FA after this season.
If you check out this game log, he has his dud a month but you think about him as a fifth starter, and his performances, and he will win a ton of games. In July, Padres went 1-5 in his starts, but check out his lines and he probably goes 4-2 on the Yankees. His problem is control.
I agree with G. Love.
And even if Aceves can only ever give you at the most 6 innings, if he’s properly prepared (not like against Minnesota before the break), they’re at least likely to be good innings.
Mitre showed some good flashes there last night, but he really is not ready, it seems, to be entrusted with even the #5 spot. I don’t think he was as awful as most people here, but the fact remains that he could not hold leads and he can’t field his position, which, for a ground ball pitcher, is not a good thing. I agree he could be good one time through a lineup. He really can’t give quality AND/or length.
I don’t understand the trust people are throwing Gaudin’s way without even having seen him throw a single pitch for the Yankees yet.
Oh, I never aid I wasn’t fat, old, or out of shape. I just don’t play sports.
Saucy, are you implying that Nascar drivers casually drink beer while racing?? Hah
I have yours Christina
We had an internet outtage and I got behind, you are fine
aid is said.
i like aceves getting some starts. the only question is how well he’ll do the third time through the order.
one way to find out.
If Mothra is your friend, I’d hate to meet your enemies.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
August 11th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
MG: Points well taken.
————————————–
Rebecca, thanks, it’s nice to have so many great Yankees fans on this blog.
Sal, i would like him starting in the post season, but there are 50 games left. If they can manage to get him only 7 starts averaging 6 innings a start that’s 42 innings more in the regular season. He already has 115.2, so that’s puts him at 157.2 innings. I highly doubt there going to try and get more than 160 innings from him this year, and if they do I’ll be waiting for him to get injured and ruining the next 15 years of his potentially high level success( a la fausto carmona). I don’t see the Yankees risking that on one ring when he potentially can help them get to many more.
If it were May then the #5 is important, but at this point in the season the BP is more important than the #5. Especially considering that in 20 days the rosters expand and the NYY could piece the #5 together with a # of pitchers. Ace has been very valuable in the pen. I wouldn’t mess with the successful formula the team has had. Come post-season Ace will be in the pen so why not leave him there to continue to get RP experience.
Here’s who is in so far for “Guess the Line Up”
This will be the final call. No submissions after 3:40. And I need a rest
Ramey, WTWVTSC, Miggs, Ed H, Andrew, Evan D, William Buckner, A Ness, MikeBoston (same)
Adam, Wampa One, Laura, BBFan, IDCWYT (same)
Heywood Jablome
Rebecca
Upstate Kate
David
Ed
Hensley Muellens
Brandon W, CM
Fran
Jerome from the Southeast
Jude
The Shocker
KZone
NYY626
Jeff NJ
Henner
Ralphie D
Cando
DETx2
NYY Roc
NYYFan, Trafed Eve
Christina
Ernest Hemingway: “There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”
Mase –
i just don’t really consider it a sport so much, so i had to put it in there!
and i’m sure it happens a lot more frequently than people would imagine
Random Question:
Did anyone else hear Joe Morgan grunt in disappointment during the Sunday night broadcast after Swisher hit the 2 run single in the bottom of the 8th?
If you sweat while doing it, it’s a sport.
If you don’t, it’s a game.
Gaudins numbers are almost identical to Jobas only Joba has had offensive support. Gaudin is not a cast off and could do the job at 5th starter with no problem. Unlike Mitre, Gaudin has major league stuff. his slider is as good as Joba’s.
Pete,
I thought the purpose of this thread was to be the unveiling of a new poll…
I think it should be
I don’t consider NASCAR a sport because, while I don’t follow the sport enoguh to know if there are fat out of shape NASCAR drivers, it’s far more about the car than the physical condition of the driver. The car is doing the work.
Rebecca, is that from the movie BIG? from the raquetball scene?
So sitting in a hot cramped racecar makes NASCAR a sport?
The Mexican Gangster is better of in the pen. hes to versatile to be used only as a 5th/long man…
http://sports.espn.go.com/fant.....0F6I090811
Is Christopher Harris on drugs, I’m w/ him on Harang, but trade Joba
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
August 11th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
If you sweat while doing it, it’s a sport.
If you don’t, it’s a game.
***
I sweat during “Guess the Line Up”. I therefore consider it a sport
Too little time left in the season. Just make Aceves your dependable RH pitcher (formerly Brian Bruney).
Sergio/Gaudin(most likely) as your #5. All season long people were saying just need an innings eater. Now I know Aceves eats innings like nobody’s business (not as many as Pete said in this post), but Gaudin should be able to get the job done.
Don’t forget to factor in Damaso. Sergio out/Damaso in.
I’ll be in shock if Joba isn’t in the rotation for the playoffs. With Andy pitching as well as he is it’s easy to slot Joba in the #4 role and he would pitch at most 3 times in the post-season (including the World Series clincher, of course). That’s only about 20 innings, I doubt that will be an issue for the Yankees to make that decision. There is too much to be lost for the Yankees to put him in the bullpen (WS championship, $10′s of millions of dollars in revenue plus having to explain to veteran players how they didn’t put their best pitcher on the mound when it counted).
As an example, with CC having an out clause in a few years, how do you think he would feel if the Yankees came up short in the post-season because Mitre got a start and CC had thrown 200+ innings and done all he could for the team?
If the plan is to reduce Joba’s innings then tonight is the time to see if Gaudin can handle 2-3 innings until the mix and match relievers finish out a win.
saucY – sticK witH sergiO
if you can casually drink a beer while playing, it’s a game. hence the following are games of skill, not sports:
golf
darts
badminton
horse
billiards
bowling
nascar
horseshoes
quoits
poker
______________________________________
i dont think drinking beer while driving a nascar is the way to go
Ernest wasn’t around for competitive eating
I would give Gaudin a shot at the No. 5 spot before relinquishing one of the most valuable pieces of the bullpen, Aceves. If Gaudin doesn’t impress in 3 starts then moving Aceves into that slot makes sense.
Phil Coke is not good enough to be a “primary” setup man.
No, NASCAR is more about smoking meth than drinking a beer
Phil Coke is the LOOGY whether you like it or not…
I wonder if Yankees are looking at a possible deal for Harang. Signed through next year, buyout in ’11 just in case it does not work out and you get him away from Dusty Baker who has abused him dating back to last year pitching him in relief for 4 innings vs. the Padres in May! You DFA or send Mitre depending on what type of contract he signed and if they have options kind of like the Edwar deal and you put Harang in as the fifth starter and Gaudin primarily a right-handed specialist like Nelson (fangraphs idea which I believe is a great idea considering he pitches well vs. righties compared to lefties) and he spot starts for Joba a few times.
This would actually leave you the option to either pitch Harang or Joba in the playoffs depending on who has pitched well recently and the situation of the series.
I only trust Phil Coke vs. lefties.
not pitch but start Harang or Joba…and I meant send down Mitre depending on the clauses in his contract.
It’s mindboggling that Aceves isn’t the 5th starter given the alternatives (apart from Hughes, who they have said they aren’t moving, however unfortunate that is).
erica here is my lineup – thanks
1. jeter ss
2. damon lf
3. tex 1b
4. arod 3b
5. matsui dh
6. posada c
7. cano 2b
8. hinske rf
9. melky cf
The only time Damaso is a factor is on payday.
Secretly, that is their plan to make aceves the 5th starter otherwise they would have send gaudin out there. why not arroyo or even harang, both have cleared waiver and both can be had for nothing then trade them in the offseason. Harang and arroyo only involve money and if the yankees are willing to absorb some of their salary, they can trade them in the offseason.
When Aceves came out for the 9th, I was certain it was to give him that much more work in preparation for starting on Sat.
Even thought Girardi was hinting at it at the beginning of his post game presser.
But when asked about it, he couldn’t get the words out quick enough. Mitre’s getting the ball.
Maybe if hadn’t got popped and suspended, he could have gotten the work in to make him an effective starter.
But now? I don’t think he’s the best option even on the current 25-man.
I hope they get Harang.
aceves would be an excellent starter and i would definitely trust him on the mound in october.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Montero Fanaticus Primus
August 11th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
If you sweat while doing it, it’s a sport.
If you don’t, it’s a game.
—————————–
I know some people who sweat while eating dinner…I think I found a flaw in your theory haha
The Yankees have had several opportunities to make Aceves the starter and haven’t done it.
I don’t think transitioning Aceves is part of their plans at the moment.
There is another starter on the way. Cashman is not done.
Pete, you’re right on target yet again. Aceves is more valuable in the rotation through the rest of the reg season given the current depth in the pen and the general lack thereof in the rotation. He’ll be a very valuable piece in the pen come playoff time, providing Girardi a safety net in the event one of their 3 or 4 starters needs to be pulled from a game early.
I know it’s a small sample, but I really haven’t been impressed with Mitre. Ironically, last night may have been one of his best starts (if not his best) as a Yankee which would’ve been far more apparent had he been able to throw accurately to second base on the gimme double play ball.
Can the Yankees win the division throwing mediocrity out to the mound every 5th day? Probably. But why do it? I just don’t see how the bullpen gets compromised more by losing Aceves than the rotation does by having a Mitre/Gaudin/etc. on the bump every 5th game.
and by Rebecca’s logic, showering would be considered a sport to Jason Giambi…
if you can casually drink a beer while playing, it’s a game. hence the following are games of skill, not sports:
golf
darts
badminton
horse
billiards
bowling
nascar
horseshoes
quoits
poker
__________________________________
Why wouldn’t football, hockey, and basketball be on this list? Presumably, nobody is drinking a beer while actually bowling. They may do that when they are awaiting their turn to bowl, but not while actually bowling. So wouldn’t the same apply to any sport where you can sit on the bench during the competition? In fact, it would seem to apply to any sport, period, since you can just as easily drink a beer as drink a Gatorade.
“Phil Coke is the LOOGY whether you like it or not…”
And the LOOGY role is not the same as a “primary” setup man.
Not a NASCAR fan and don’t know much about it.
But I think it’s about 100 times tougher than those other sports.
Well, golf is tough but and demands great concentration but no one’s getting killed.
What’s “quoits” ?
Remember what happened last time when the genius decided to try Ace to start? We got swept by the LAA, partly because of our crappy bullpen.
Hands off the pen.
i can’t even believe NASCAR is being discussed as a sport. it’s the simplest of all competitive driving events. (and to the beer argument, when i drive home from the bar i make lefts AND rights…)
Watch some Formula1 Racing and join me in laughing at the nascar crowd.
I don’t know much about NASCAR either. But, judging from Pablo Montaya’s performance in the NASCAR circuit, it is obviously not so easy to make adjustment from one racing to another.
Yes Aceves should be in the rotation.
However if you are going to list their “best” staff it would have Hughes in the rotation.
Best explanation of “sport” vs. “game” I’ve heard is this: If, when it’s the player’s turn, he can simply choose where to go or what to do, it’s a game. If he has to use physical speed, strength, or precision (etc.) to make his move, then it’s a sport. For example, in chess, you simply move your piece to the square you want it to occupy; hence, not a sport. Same with card games. But baseball is a sport because you can’t just choose to go to first base; you have to hit the ball on the ground and get to first before the ball gets there.
By this definition, golf and even darts are sports even though they don’t necessarily involve strenuous amounts of athletic output. So is NASCAR, because the drivers have to compete physically to get to the front. Obviously, racecar drivers don’t power the vehicles they drive, but their quickness and precision in accelerating, decelerating, and steering ARE physical tasks that must be performed with speed and accuracy in order to win.
“Mitre : pitcher as Ransom : positional player.”
What is the analogous equivalent of Ransom’s 60 inch box jump? Can Mitre punch a hole in a brick wall?
I’d rather they not mess with the bullpen right now.
We didn’t get swept by LA because of Aceves start, which was a spot start in which his pitch count was limited to begin with. And our bullpen isn’t “crappy” because it implodes once in a while. It’s baseball – components of your team won’t perform up to it’s ability every game of a 162 game season. This team is much better over the next two months with Aceves starting, backed by Robertson and Melancon than it is with Mitre starting, backed by Aceves.
Any rotation taht does not include Mitre is a better rotation. I think Aceves will pitch well no matter where he is placed. He is valuable every otehr day, too. Why not start Gaudin next week and see what he does? He can strike batters out and Mitre always puts the ball in play.
Pete , you are right on again! Mitre’s value is against righties. Aceves should be given the 5th spot unless proven he can’t. Bruney looked pretty good for one of the two innings he pitched on Friday against Boston.Robertson has been looking better too. Just switch it up with Mitre and Aceves..this shouldn’t be too hard to figure.
Start Gaudin… option Mitre….bring back Melancon… simple!
Gaudin has had pretty decent stretches in the AL. He’s got decent stuff and can pitch in a variety of roles, a lot more useful than a chump like Mitre. He gives the Yankees good versatility and adds talent to the roster.
Not to change the topic but I just got in and was listening to WEEI. I haven’t really kept up with this but it seems that the NY Times reporter reported that all 104 people on the list that the feds have are people who tested positive for STEROIDS. Not substances that may have been in vitamins. STEROIDS. The shill from the Players Union verified that David Ortiz’s name was indeed on the fed’s list.
You do the math.
I’d rather they try out Gaudin as the 5th starter instead. Aceves has made our bullpen one of the best in baseball. I really don’t want to mess with hit.
I farted
August 11th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
“Gaudins numbers are almost identical to Jobas only Joba has had offensive support. Gaudin is not a cast off and could do the job at 5th starter with no problem. Unlike Mitre, Gaudin has major league stuff. his slider is as good as Joba’s.”
you are out of your mind to even write this….Gaudin has two pitches a league average fastball and an above average slider that is not even close to Joba’s.Gaudin is barely a back of the rotation type of guy and i think he’s better off as a long man one time thru a lineup….that game he pitched against Tex was the apex of his career
the key to this whole discussion for me is Melancon because if Ace goes back into the rotation Melancon is the guy i think best fits Ace’s current role. Melancon is capable of throwing multiple innings and is an extremely efficient pitcher who is ‘Mo-like in how he goes after guys and is just as capable of a 5 pitch 3 out quiet inning as Mariano. May be the perfect oppurtunity to really bring Melancon along in his development by placing him in Aceve’s spot and move Ace into the rotation…
i’ve said all along that the solutions to our “pitching needs” is in house and on the 40 man.General Joe and Lt.Eiland must get it right and get them going.
Jon
you’re being dramatic about Coke…i think Girardi needs to lighten up on him for a week or so give his arm a break…he was way overused the first half of the season to the point that we renamed him Phil Proctor around my way but he’s still very effective but just like Ace needed a break to rest his arm i think Coke needs one now as well which is why i m still upset that Melancon is down in Scranton.
IMO the Yanks are better of with Pena in SWB playing everyday and continuing to develop and Melancon should be in the bullpen taking up some work from Coke to keep him fresh and replacing Ace with Ace going to the 5th starter spot
“that game he pitched against Tex was the apex of his career”
that is just a patently false statement 2007 for instance, when he got some regular work as a starter there were NUMEROUS starts where he pitched VERY effectively to lights out. to say he’s had 1 good game and it’s been the apex of his career is just ignorant and reflects the stupidity of the person behind such a statement.
The ONLY reason Girardi keeps throwing Mitre ot there every 5th day is to help Cashman save face, by justifying the $5MN contract he gave to Mitre! I cringe everytime I see the guys’ name in the line-up.