Lots to consider
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Being a member of the Baseball Writers’ Association of America is something I take seriously. The BBWAA, like any large organization, has issues. But the vast majority of the members take their stewardship of the game seriously.
Baseball writers are a conduit to the fan — more than ever these days with instantly updated blogs, Twitter, Facebook, etc. — and we work with MLB to guarantee access to the players and information. The BBWAA also votes on membership in the Hall of Fame and for the major awards.
Contrary to what some believe, there is no East Coast bias when voting for the awards. Two writers in each city are selected for a panel. Because there are so many BBWAA members in New York, we each get one award to vote for and it rotates from year to year.
I just learned I will be voting for Most Valuable Player this year. My last MVP vote was in 2005 when I covered the Mets.
Here is what the ballot said:
It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.
The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:
1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.
3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
4. Former winners are eligible.
5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.
You are also urged to give serious consideration to all your selections, from 1 to 10. A 10th-place vote can influence the outcome of an election. You must fill in all 10 places on your ballot. Only regular-season performances are to be taken into consideration.
Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, including pitchers and designated hitters.
So there you have it. I’m going to wait another two weeks before making a list of 25 names and then I plan to whittle it down from there.
We’re asked not to reveal our ballots until the voting is announced in November. So no harassing me.
———–
Driving up to Boston this morning. Check back later for the game post.
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on Friday, August 21st, 2009 at 11:00 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Pete, that is great. Congratulations.
I feel sorry for you Pete. You are going to be swamped with emails calling for Tex or Jeter to get your top vote.
Pete
Enjoy the sweep.
Wow. This totally the “What criteria would Pete use to choose the MVP if he could vote” question….
Someone posted they didn’t think you were eligible for voting. I am glad they were wrong
I love both Jeter and Teixeira and would be plenty happy if either won the MVP, but this year the award is Joe Mauer’s. Even though the Twins are going to be playing out the stretch in September, you can’t ignore his performance. One interesting thing which I did not realize was on the “voting criteria list” was the number of games played condition. That could work against Mauer since he missed April. Granted you can argue that Teixeira missed April since he was around the Mendoza Line the entire month.
But, if I were in Pete’s shoes, I would still vote for Mauer.
I don’t see a Yankee winning mvp this year, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. There’s been many “mvps” on the Yankees this year, no one person has carried the team and in the overall picture thats a good thing.
“Totally agree with this except that the mediots will be sounding off about how the Yankees are collapsing under pressure if they get swept… yada yada yada… however if the Red Sox get swept it will just be a little stumble ”
Just because Erica said there was a new thread I put it here.
Those are the mediots who predicted that the Sux would win the division and the Yanks might not make the playoffs? Those mediots? Let me tell you I learned long ago to take my own counsel and take “opinions” with a grain of salt. I have lived happily that way and interestingly enough have actually been in the area of the correct answer more often than not.
If you have eyes, ears, and a functioning brain and use them wisely, you really don’t need anyone else to do your thinking.
I assume you’re sticking with your April pick of Nick Swisher.
Andrew-
I respect that opinion, but I am considering the value of Tex to the Yankees.
Where would the Twins be without Mauer? still a crappy team
Where would the Yankees be without Tex? 6.5 up on Boston??? I don’t think so…..
About MVP? I really don’t care. Same with all the other individual awards. I have a more jeterian bent on these things. It’s all about the team.
Later y’all.
That vote will be a tough one. Mauer is having a career year, as a catcher no less. Jeter is definitely a key for the NYY, the team with the best record. This is one of Jeter’s best years. But how can Tex be ignored? ARod said if the RS had Tex the NYY would be 10 games out. Maybe he’s speaking in hyperbole, but his point is valid. Without Tex this is a completely different year for the NYY. Tex truly is valuable because he has made so much of an impact on this team and the standings.
MVP this year
Mauer
Jeter
Tex
Rivera
This could be the year Jeter finally breaks thru as it may be his last chance. His fielding has imporved dramatically, his hitting is excellent, and it could also be a life time achievement award. Tex is young he will have to wait.
I agree I think Mauer also, just a amazing year.
.378 average, 25 hr, 77 rbis, .446 obp, .643 slg.
He’s hitting .390 risp, risp 2 outs .444, bases loaded .400
and he’s a catcher to boot.
1. Tex
2. Jeter
3. Mo
4. Mauer
After that, I don’t care.
Cool Pete. Sounds like fun except you probably shouldn’t have told the blog, you will probably get tons of Jeter and Tex emails.
Do you vote for both MVP awards or just the AL?
Mauer’s gotta win, there’s no other choice right now. Obviously things could change by the end of september but as of now Mauer is the overwhelming choice.
Then 2-10 in no specific order could be Jeter, Teixeira, Bartlett, Youkilis, Zobrist, Ichiro, Morneau, Cabrera and Young.
Erica, the value to the team criteria makes Teixeira or Jeter the best choices for the award, I agree. But, I think there has to be a balance between individual performance and team performance–perhaps the Twins would be completely buried at or around the Royals’ level if not for Mauer’s performance, so then along that line he is still extremely valuable in that he separates 3rd from 5th place. But, that is clearly not the same as the difference in performance that Jeter or Teixeira would cause if they were not with the Yankees this year.
It is going to get increasingly heated as the season winds down, the issue of who gets the MVP. Some people will be outraged by the outcome, I can guarantee that.
The ballot says that pitchers are eligible but rules #1 and #2 basically remove all pitchers from consideration.
Erica – always OPPC
August 21st, 2009 at 11:07 am
Wow. This totally the “What criteria would Pete use to choose the MVP if he could vote” question….
Someone posted they didn’t think you were eligible for voting. I am glad they were wrong
___________________________________
Erica, that was me, but it was in regard to HOF voting, not season awards. I stated that a writer had to have 10 years of baseball writing credentials to get a HOF vote, and I believe Pete only has eight.
How about sharing what your 2005 ballot looked like?
Mauer.
Mauer is an amazing ballplayer. Whether you are a Yankees fan or not, you should be a baseball fan too. Gotta give credit where credit is due.
Teix and Jeter are clearly in the running, although Jeter will not put up the kind of numbers that traditionally go with MVP. (We’ve seen it before when Jetes lost to Morneau). Jeter will also lose 1st place votes because of the “overrated” nonsense that dogs his career.
Teix is more of the power offensive player and his defense has been nothing short of awesome. True, his numbers perked up only when A-Rod came back to the lineup, but so what. Teix is really in the running, IMO.
I’d love to see a Yankee win it – Jeter or Tex – but how can anyone argue against Mauer at this point?
Still 40+ games to go though. Anything can happen.
With all due respect Peter, I don’t think writers should vote on hall of famers, I think surviving hall of fame players should do the voting. Who knows more about what it takes to be a hall of famer than a hall of famer? Also, stewards of the game? I don’t think so. Conduit to the fans yes, but the players and managers and commissioner are the stewards of the game.
It’s hard to give anyone the title at this point…what happens of Mauer finishes August and plays through September the way Tex played through April? What if Jeter continues to bat over .400 the rest of the year and ends up ahead of Mauer’s BA? Not sure any of these things are likely, but there is still too much baseball left to be played to give anyone the MVP…now if the MVP were awarded today, I would think most ballets would have Mauer at 1, with Tex and Jeter in everyone’s 5.
Pete, have you talked with Joel Sherman to hear what response he’s gotten since announcing that he’s also an AL MVP voter this year? I’ve gotta think that your mailbox is going to be pretty full for the rest of the year.
Lots of baseball to play so things could change dramatically before the season is out.
But at this point in time, Joe Mauer should be the overwhelming favorite to win the award.
Now that could change dramatically – Mauer’s value is very tied to his batting average. And that could fluctuate a lot – especially as a catcher.
Mauer’s candidacy largely rests on his rate statistics (BA, OPS, etc.). And because he missed the first month of the season his rate statistics will be more vulnerable to changing than most of the other players in the race, especially Jeter and Tex.
So we still have to see.
But if things continue as they are Mauer should win.
We’re watching the greatest year any catcher has ever had when you consider Mauer’s offense and defense. It’s possible (even likely?) that Josh Gibson played at a higher level, but unfortunately he never got to play in the the Majors due to segregation.
Mauer is having a historically great season and if he continues that he should win the award.
If he doesn’t it should be Jeter.
Pete,
Can you who you voted for in 05?
Why should current hall of famers vote for new ones? It makes no sense. Writers are much more in touch with the current game of baseball than most (but not all) former players.
I’m curious, with Heisman voting it typically hurts a candidate if there is another candidate on the same team. Will Tex and Jeter both playing for the Yankees negatively affect their chances? Or does the E/W coast bias affect the Heisman voting more than baseball’s MVP? I DO feel like the W/L record of college teams factors into the decision moreso than baseball’s MVP.
This is awesome Pete!
What bugs me here is that the MVP award in many sports doesn’t always go to the actual MVP. Mauer for instance, is having by far the best year out of all American League players, imo. His value to his team is huge, yet he plays on a lousy team and doesn’t make a huge difference. In my book, he wouldn’t even be in the top 10 candidates for MVP but if the award was for “Best Player” or “Best Season” he’d be #1.
Jeter and Tex certainly deserve to be on my list, a case could even be made for Mo. As for Boston, other than Youk, not much there.
Mauer is the MVP to date. Jeter is runner up IMO.
I’m going to get slammed for this, but I don’t see Tex as part of the equation. He’s having a very good season, but his offense at first just doesn’t stand out that much. He’s not having as good a season as Miguel Cabrera or Youkilis (I know, boo…) and he’s having about the same season as Morneau and Morales. His defense is fine but not good enough to leap him over the other guys.
Erica,
The criteria is “actual valuable to his team” not “actual value to a team that will make the playoffs.” The Twins might be a mediocre team with Mauer, but they would be an AWFUL team without him. He is a cather OPS 1000+ while playing gold glove caliber defense. There cannot possible be a more valuable type of player in baseball.
Think of it this way:
1. Replace Mauer with a league average catcher and see what happens to the Twins.
2. Replace Jetes with a league average SS and see what happens to the Yanks.
3. Replace Tex with a league average 1b and see what happens to the Yanks.
I haven’t looked at the WAR for each of these three players, but I would guess the comparison is not even close.
I mean, we love Tex and Jetes, but Joe Mauer is the MVP.
“Why should current hall of famers vote for new ones? It makes no sense. Writers are much more in touch with the current game of baseball than most (but not all) former players.”
I think HOF voters in all sports should be required to submit their votes with detailed reasoning for their decision (if this is not the case now) and there should be a review panel that reads the reasoning, using said information to determine whether or not a voter’s eligibility continues the next year. Anyone who marks “first time on ballot” as a reason for not voting for someone, should be stripped of their voting privileges forever. The tough part is, who sits on this panel?
WYH,
I wouldn’t put Tex behind Youk, Morneau and Cabrera by that much. They are all having comparable offensive seasons. The thing that puts Tex ahead of the pack is his defense which is spectacular.
If I had to rank them I’d probably go Tex, Morneau, Youkilis, Cabrera, Morales
That being said Mauer is way ahead of Tex and Jeter is too.
Daily News article on Jeter’s MVP candidacy
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....n_mvp.html
Wave, you are a brave poster! Are you wearing your Kevlar!?
I think that’s what makes award voting so much fun. Everybody has an opinion and you can make a case for more than 1 player. There is probably no “right” selection.
Pete,
In the poll, you need to include options such as:
win 1, lose 1
2, 0
0, 2
1, 0
0, 1
0, 0
Since 1 or more games could be cancelled due to rain.
I would amend my earlier comment to say “Mauer is the MVP right now.” I agree with everyone who says that there is a lot of season left.
Congrats on obtaining the vote Pete. This year is a tough one because while Tex has been great for the Yankees, different players at different times have carried this team. Damon early, Tex in the middle and Jeter lately. I think right now the MVP is Joe Mauer but let’s not forget the Twins are under .500 and he has Justin Morneau hitting behind him in the lineup. So it’s questionable whether you can really call someone the most valuable in the league when his team isn’t close to making the playoffs. The one positive in all of this is that no Red Sox player has a chance this season. Thank God!
Any word on GGBG???
Gdamac-
The idea has been raised many times, but IMHO, having the living Hall of Famer’s vote for the Hall would be a mistake. Just because someone had a HOF career, who’s to say they neccesarily pay close attention to contemporary players? Many are bothered by the money today’s players make, and would hold that against them… Or be bothered by a player who passed their old teammate’s record… Etc.
Of course the current system is flawed too, but I think it’s safer.
1. Mauer
2. Jeter
A gold glove catcher is first in Average, OBP, and Slugging. That’s absurd.
Patrick, IMO Tex’s defense is fine, but not “spectacular”. He doesn’t rank with Tino or Mattingly, let alone a guy like Keith Hernandez. How many diving stops to his right have you seen him make? How far in the gap to his right does he go? Is his defense really any better than Overbay’s, or Pena’s, or Moles’, or Youk’s?
He’s solid, but not spectacular. That’s not a knock on Tex. If Boston had gotten him and not us, we’d be chasing the Sox.
im probably a conspiracy theorist but jeter will never win an mvp. im the type of person that convinces myself its because he is on the hated yankees that he hasnt won thus far..
also, pete, the two jokers from detroit who voted in the ‘05 mvp race should be fired forever.
Maine, oh yeah – I know you’re joking, absolutely.
Erica, I’ve recovered…….but I don’t think I can handle another shock to my system. I might prefer being left in my little cocoon of naivite, lol…..
“BWAA is a complete joke! This is the same group that gave the gold glove to palmiero over Toni when he played all of 15 games at first. It doesn’t surprise me that Pete would both be a member and tout the group as being above board.”
What an utterly embarrassing and ignorant post.
The combination of arrogance and dumb is one of the internet’s worst features. But it’s seen far too often.
The baseball writer’s association does not even vote for the gold glove.
The managers and coaches vote for the award.
What a hack. Attacking someone else anonymously when you yourself don’t have the facts and are completely wrong in the essential point you are trying to disparage with.
You’re the joke Wayno. HAHA.
Since when did baseball writers become “stewards of the game”?
Patrick, IMO Tex’s defense is fine, but not “spectacular”. If you just think about past Yankee first basemen, he doesn’t rank with Tino or Mattingly, let alone a guy like (not a Yankee) Keith Hernandez. How many diving stops to his right have you seen him make? How far in the gap to his right does he go? Have you seen him make great charging plays on bunts? Is his defense really any better than Overbay’s, or Pena’s, or Morales’, or Youk’s?
He’s solid, but not spectacular. That’s not a knock on Tex. If Boston had gotten him and not us, we’d be chasing the Sox.
1) Mauer
2) Jeter
3) Teixeira
=D
I don’t see how a player can be MVP of a team that doesn’t win. There ought to be a separate award for Best Player so that a player like Mauer can be rewarded for his unbelievable season………and a player like Tex or Jeter can be rewarded for leading their team to the post-season.
Wave,
You’re underrating Tex’s defense. He’s a considerably better fielder than Tino was. He’s not as good as Mattingly and not close to as good as Hernandez.
But he’s very good. The only guy I’d say is better defensively right now is Pujols. I’d throw Youkilis into the mix with Tex as well, though I do think Tex is probably better. Kotchman also but he doesn’t play everyday now.
Wow, I completely disagree about Tex’s defense. He’s not as good as Donnie, but he is absolutely better than Tino…….
Maine, thanks for posting the link again – it was a fine article.
Who is Toni?
“Mauer’s candidacy largely rests on his rate statistics (BA, OPS, etc.).”
Even his 25 homers and 77 RBI compares quite favorably to Teixiera’s 31 and 89 when you consider he’s had nearly 120 fewer PA’s than Teixeira.
1)Mauer
2)Teixeira
3)Jeter
4)Zolbrist
5)Youkilis
Proctor’s Elbow: I think your argument would be strong if this were basketball, where one player could have an outsized impact on his team’s ability to win a game.
But this is baseball. One player cannot carry a team to the playoffs by himself. If one player could, a catcher playing gold glove caliber defense hitting .378/.446/.643 for an OPS of 1.089(!!!) with 25 HR’s and 77 RBI’s in 96 games would certainly do it.
Look at Mauer’s numbers again. We have never seen anything like this in the history of baseball from the catching position. We’ve barely seen anything like it from ANY position. What he is doing, especially as a good/great defensive cather, is mind-bogglingly insane.
So to answer your question, yes he can be the most valuable player in a league when his team isn’t close to making the playoffs. The fact that the Twins aren’t close to making the playoffs is in spite of Mauer’s value, not in anyway due to any lack of value from Mauer himself. Takeway Mauer and put any of the other contenders on this list on the Twins and they STILL aren’t making the playoffs.
The MVP, by the very criteria laid out by Pete, is an individual award. Mauer is the most valuable individual player in the AL this season. He should not be punished due to the shortcomings of his teammates.
People are probably thinking of the older Tino. In the dynasty years, Tino was a better defensive first baseman than Teixeira. Just my opinion, but I think Tino had more range to his right than Tex does.
As it stands today, Mauer should get the nod.
As far as Yankees go, I don’t know how one would choose between Teixeira and Jeter. Teixeira has made the Yankees defense work, but Jeter has improved his tremendously. Offensively, Tex puts up more power numbers, but Jeter is more consistent BA-wise. Both are intense and influential players on their team.
I would favor Tex by a hair, only because he’s new to the equation and really positive things are happening with his addition.
“If I had to rank them I’d probably go Tex, Morneau, Youkilis, Cabrera, Morales”
Not sure whether the Halos were really ever in it on Teixeira, but did they land on their feet with Morales or what?
Tex doesn’t have to dive for balls because he is always in position to make plays.
Joe DiMaggio never dove for flyballs and he was a spectacular CF.
Tex is the best defensive 1B since Mattingly.
He’s not Donnie defensively, but he is better than Tino was and Tino was very good.
I think Mauer is the run away winner of the award unless he hit a bump in the road, which is highly unlikely.
Mauer is just a brilliant player. Jeter should finish second.
Of course, this would be the second time he’s finished second to a Twin in the MVP voting. Only this time, that Twin player actually deserves to win the award.
I think Tex’s defense is great, it seems like he grabs anything close…maybe the last few years of Giambi would make anyone look great
“Even his 25 homers and 77 RBI compares quite favorably to Teixiera’s 31 and 89 when you consider he’s had nearly 120 fewer PA’s than Teixeira.”
That’s true but what sends his candidacy into a very special orbit is his rate statistics. For a catcher to get on base that much is just amazing.
His counting stats get hurt a lot by missing all that time and that was part of the point I was trying to get at. Usually that kills an MVP candidacy. But with Mauer what he’s missed in time to accumulate HR and RBI’s he’s made up and benefited from through the boost missing time can give to rate stats.
But you’r point is well taken. The big difference with Mauer now is his slugging and that’s really related to him developing a power stroke as is seen by his HR.
Also, I simply think the award is mis-named. According to the rules Pete posted, the winner does not have to play for a contending team. In practice, however, that is probably the case more so than not. I think it is so named in order to stress that all players be considered (pitchers and position players – and DHs), despite the fact there is a separate award for the best pitcher.
I’m over the MVP award as it has become meaningless. The fact that a guy from a non playoff team can win is ludicrous. In truth, there should be two awards; best offensive player and most valuable player. Joe Mauer shold win Best Offensive Player, but MVP?
Ask yourselves this – does Mauer make everyone else around him better? Clearly, the answer is no since the Twins are going nowhere. Does Jeter and Tex make everyone else around them better? Tex most certainly does. I think Jeter does too. Kudos to Mauer for having a great season (although I wonder where all this new found power comes from). My vote is Tex and then Jeter.
Mauer is a phenomenal hitter.
Mauer more than likely will win the award .A left hand hitting catcher with an average in the stratosphere.Rare.
I believe this would be his 3rd batting title if his average doesn’t slip and he gets the necessary ABs to qualify.
Just for the sake of discussion :
Yogi Berra from 1948 thru 1956 had a great run including 3 MVP awards
Roy Campanella 1951,1953,1955 3 MVP awards
Bill Dickey 1936-1939
Mike Piazza 1993-2002
Johnny Bench in 1970 ,1972
outside of MP great all around players
let’s see if Mauer can crack 100 RBI.
Tex will need to put together a remarkable September to win.
Jeter is my sentimental favorite but I doubt he’ll win the award.
Congrats on the vote Pete.
Can you post who your top 10 was in 2005??
Also, I don’t think you made it clear (or maybe its just obvious) but are you voting for only AL MVP or both AL and NL?? You just said you are voting for MVP this year…do you get to vote for both??
SJ44-
I disagree with you on Tex’s positioning. It’s fine, but wherever you set up there are balls to your right a diving play can get to. It’s not like balls never get through between Tex and Cano.
I think you are wrong on Tino too.
I suspect enthusiasm for Tex (justifiable enthusiasm) tends to produce a little confirmation bias in assessing his fielding.
I don’t even think Jeter will get many votes…he’s not a favorite of the voters (this is like the Oscars – where voters DO play favorites) and he’s not a slugger.
My dad alerted me to this recently because I wasn’t alive at the time-
In 1973, Thurman Munson committed one error all season as catcher. And that error was only because he was knocked unconscious at the plate. However, he did not win a gold glove that season
Two thoughts:
1. I don’t this wa son the rules in 1931: Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, including designated hitters.
Smile, just having some fun…
2. Wouldn’t it be nice if Derek Jeter earned the MVP Award? That would be a great capstone to the captain.
“The fact that a guy from a non playoff team can win is ludicrous. ”
So if a player produced at the following level you think it would be ludicrous for him to win the MVP because, say, his team finished second and didn’t make the playoffs:
.406 BA / 37HR/ 120 RBI/ 135 RS/ .553 OBP/ .735 SLG %/
1.287 OPS
“Driving up to Boston this morning.” 11:00 am
Posted at 11??? I thought you would have already left, Pete… am I ever in the mood for a big bowl of chowdah!!!
…had to laugh when I read the boston globe column refered to earlier on this blog and one of the comments from it suggested the Red Sox Nation place padding in their backside for the thumping they were about to take…
Grateful the west coast trip is over… waking up tired every morning….
Bill Madden alluded to the fact yesterday on SNY that there is an Anti-NY bias when it comes to these awards. Unless the numbers are so far in one’s favor that it isin’t even close (like A-Rod in 07). Said Jeter got robbed in 07.
Atleast he was honest.
Laura,
What does “make everyone else around him better” really mean, in the context of baseball? Is it Mauer’s fault Carlos Gomez doesn’t take more walks? Is it Mauer’s fault that Liriano hasn’t regained his form of after a major shoulder injury?
I just don’t understand how Derek Jeter makes A-Rod or Robinson Cano more capable of hitting 98 MPH fasballs.
And yes, Tex certainly helps the other Yankee infielders by fielding some of their more errant throws. You don’t think that the Twins’ pitcher aren’t helped by Mauer’s ability to throw out runners at an exceptionally high rate or block their passed balls?
Joe Mauer gets four or maybe five plate appearances a game. He also catches. That’s all he can control. Derek Jeter can control his four to five plate appearances and balls hit to him at short. Ditto Tex.
No baseball player can “make his teammates better.” They can maybe make their teammates LOOK better by covering up some mistakes (fielding errant throws, blocking errant pitches, throwing runners out, etc.). But they can’t make them better.
This isn’t basketball or football. There is no passing or blocking.
*robbed in 06
You shouldn’t put your MVP thinking into such a straightjacket as to ignore perhaps the finest offensive season ever had by a catcher. Even if Minnesota doesn’t win, it would be flat out wrong to give the MVP to anyone else.
And I love Derek Jeter. But he’s just not the MVP this year.
And also, to your point about Mauer being the best “Offensive player”: Mauer is also playing gold-glove caliber defense at the most challenging defensive position in the sport.
Wave,
Tex was the best defensive 1B in the league last year, according to +/-. I don’t think his defense has diminished in the last year which is why I said he’s spectacular in the field.
Your assessment of Tex is way off base.
Cano’s ability to get more balls going to his right is because Tex is able to cover so many balls to his left, Cano doesn’t have to play closer to first as he has had to do in previous years.
My assessment has nothing to to with “enthusiasm” toward Tex. It has to to with the fact Tino doesn’t do anything defensively better than Tex.
When it comes to scopping, range and throwing, Tex is the better player.
We will agree to disagree on this one.
Erica:
Munson did win the GG in 1973…and 1974…and 1975. However, in 1971, he did indeed make 1 error and threw out a rather astounding 61% of would be basestealers. Only reason not to give him the GG is maybe he didn’t start enough games (114 at catcher in ‘71 – he averaged 137 in his 3 GG years).
Pete — You said two writers from each city are selected. I assume that means, 2 writers for each league. That is 2 Yankees reporters will vote for the AL MVP and 2 different New York reporters, who cover the Mets, will vote for the NL MVP. Is that correct?
I believe if the Yankees win tonight, they will sweep Boston. I also believe they will win tonight! LOL!
IMO, Jeter gets the award this year. Call it sentimental if you will, but I believe he has shown that the negatives he has garnered over the years were not well founded due to misc injuries he played through. It is remarkable what he has done this year. A SS batting leadoff with his stats are rare. I actually believe it is the year of the SS and both Hanley & Jeter will win the MVP in their respective leagues.
I believe two or three things will hurt Mauer. One he was injured. Second, his team is below .500. Lastly he probably won’t get 100 RBIs, which is kind of a minimum plateau for an MVP not batting leadoff.
2005 vote (Pete’s last)
Arod (16 1st place votes)
Ortiz (11)
Vlad (1)
M. Ramirez
Hafner
Konerko
Teixeira
Sheffield
Rivera
Jeter
Pete..you best be voting for Tex.
Mauer or Teixeira…I think it will be Teix b/c Mauer is going to have make the playoffs to get the votes if I had a vote it’s hard not to give to Mauer who accounts for over 30 % of the Minnesota Twins offense.
Joe Mauer should win the Hank Aaron Award, not the MVP Award. The Twins would suck with or without him.
“Lastly he probably won’t get 100 RBIs”
He’s got 77 in 91 games. You don’t think he can bag another 25 in the next 40+ games?
talk to me after this weekend re MVP
Remember that guy Jay Cowley from the Chicago Sun-Times who voted Jeter 6th in the 06 MVP ballot?
He came on with Mike and the Mad Dog and his defense was totally weak. Typical generic “he doesn’t make the team better, he is surrounded by stars, etc” BS.
The way I see it playing out is that Jeter and Teixiera are going to split votes and Mauer ends up with the prize. Jeter yet another 2nd place finish
Jeter got robbed. Dont let it happen again..or someone might get hurt. Preferably Josh Beckett.
“We will agree to disagree on this one.”
That’s how I feel about this whole thread. No one is going to change their mind based on what they’ve read here. My position is that the MVP should come from a playoff bound team. Someone previously reminded me that A-Rod won with Texas even though they didn’t go to the playoffs. I submit to you that he probably shouldn’t have, but I believe that his stats that year were so gaudy good and so much better than everyone else’s that they had to give it to him. That may be the case with Mauer this year as well. I can accept that, but that doesn’t mean that I think it’s the right way to go. And nothing I’ve read here today changes my mind on that.
So, Pete, who are you going to vote for?
If 2008 Pujols, 2006 Howard, 2004 Bonds, and 2003 Alex can win MVPs for teams that didn’t make the playoffs, then 2009 Mauer damn well can
You know that guy that plays first for the Yankees is pretty good. Fits all above categories.
ARod deserves the MVP… the team did nothing before he came back….
Well, I don’t see the spectacular defense when it comes to Tex. I don’t really think he’s any better than Youkilis, Overbay or Morales, to name three AL guys. Is he really better than Carlos Pena?
He’s fine, as I said. He doesn’t make errors, which is an excellent thing. But I don’t see an unusually wide range to the right. That’s no criticism – I think he is a solid fielding first-baseman.
It certainly doesn’t turn up in extensive stats like the number of plays made compared to other first baseman. It doesn’t show up in an old fashioned stat like RF, it doesn’t show up in PO’s or assists, and it doesn’t show up in new-fangled stats like UZR. That’s a lot of places for it not to show up if he is indeed that spectacular.
Am I the only one who thinks Tex is the Yankees MVP over Jeter this year?
Off the top of my head, I can name several huge hits Teixeira has had that have either tied the game late, or turned out to be the game winner.
Homeruns against the Tigers, Red Sox, Mariners, and A’s were all recent game winners. Earlier in the season, he hit a bases-clearing double with 2 outs in the 8th inning against TB, that tied the game. He hustled home to score on Castillo’s dropped pop up (Jeter would have done the same thing, but not some other players). He also won Player of the Month in May.
I also remember him saving games with his defense. The pick in the dirt a couple days ago to complete the DP for the A’s was one. He also threw a runner out at home in a 1-1 games against the Orioles (it was an aggressive play, and a lot of first basemen would have taken the easy out). There’s a lot more of them, I’m sure.
However, maybe I’m being biased because it’s easy to remember all the dramatic hits. The reality is that Jeter was probably on base to score most of the runs he drove in. And his defense has been very good, as well. The one thing I think Jeter holds over Tex is his consistency. Teixeira went through a huge slump in April, and his power is sometimes off and on. Jeter, on the other hand, has done what he does pretty much since day 1.
If the season were to end today, your 25-name list would have to look like this:
Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer Joe Mauer
Attention Yankee Fans: Screw Joe Mauer. Vote for Tex.
Wave:
Maybe Teix has some “intangibles” that don’t show up in the stats
“but I believe that his stats that year were so gaudy good and so much better than everyone else’s that they had to give it to him.”
You can believe it, but you’d be wrong. That was a tough year though. Of the 28 writers who voted, only 6 had Arod as their number one choice. 10 different players, including Posada with 5, received 1st place votes in 2003.
Patrick-
If you are going to quote Tex’s +/- for 2008, then you need to address his +/- for the previous years as well, and you really ought to tackle the thorny UZR question too.
Look, Tex is a good fielding first baseman, and a great hitter. That’s good enough for me.
A-Rod won 2 MVPs on last place teams.
Pujols won the MVP last year and his team finished in 3rd.
Ryan Howard won the MVP in 06 and his team missed the playoffs
Bonds missed the playoffs in 04.
It’s not like there is no precedent. A lot of MVPs come from non-playoff teams. And when you consider the year Mauer is going to put up, from a rare position, despite missing a month… nobody can question it if he receives the award. He should.
Mauer should not get the award. He is having an incredible year, but when there are qualified members of contending teams, I think you have to go to those guys. Pedroia won last year and he was far from the best under all the stathead numbers. I’m not demeaning those numbers, some of them are useful, others not so much, but you have to look at the team that’s going to the playoffs and look to see whether one of those teams is really being driven by a certain player most of all. There is no question in my mind that this is Tex. I love Jeter and he should have won over Mourneau, but Tex is the guy I want up in any big spot. He has had so many big hits and home runs that you just can’t ignore it. Without Tex, the wheel does not spin.
While the MVP isn’t supposed to reflect on the player being on a contending team, aren’t results supposed to count? If the player has incredible numbers its hard to deny them the MVP, but an MVP should be able to carry the team somewhat. Being sub .500 isn’t impressive.
In some ways it can be easier for a player to put up better numbers on a non-contending team. The opposition does not play them the same as true contenders. In batting, if the rest the team doesn’t score much, they may end up getting better pitches to hit simply because the damage they can do nightly isn’t as great despite having a high BA/ Slugging %.
MVP is really mis-named. The MVP should go to the player on the team that wins the pennant that played the best during the season. Otherwise what was most valuable about them? That they helped the team to mediocrity instead of being a bottom feeder?
There is no doubt that Mauer is putting up a great season. It was also a shorter season, which could help influence the results. A month of play shorter means less wear and tear from the usual grind, so there is value in that. It can also help keep the BA higher than it might be through a whole season.
I would kill to have Joe Mauer, but he’s not a Yankee so **** him and vote for Tex.
“You can believe it, but you’d be wrong. That was a tough year though. Of the 28 writers who voted, only 6 had Arod as their number one choice. 10 different players, including Posada with 5, received 1st place votes in 2003.”
So then why did A-Rod get it if his stats weren’t head and shoulders better than everyone else? If that’s the case, he shouldn’t have won it. Playoff bound guys should get the nod before a non playoff player.
That’s fine Wave, you’re entitled to your opinion but I disagree.
Mauer shouldn’t be penalized because his team may not make the playoffs.
To say that a guy like Mauer isn’t “carrying his team” by leading the league in batting average, .OBP, and being among the leaders in RBI and home runs despite having missed a month – well, that’s just ludicrous.
He’s also a terrific defensive catcher. He’s the best player in the American League, by a pretty fair margin.
RS:
Mauer was the Player of the Month in May.
Tex has been great for us, but it’s not like this guy is going to put up elite numbers.
The best year of his career was a 44/144 campaign in 05. He isin’t going to touch that this year.
Tex will probably hit .284/37/110 or something. When you consider that Mauer will probably hit 100 points higher and have comparable RBI totals, he deserves it.
You go off a stat sheet and I’ll use my eyes and my player evaluation skills.
He makes plays every night. They don’t have to be “spectactular” to be the superior player.
Tino never made spectacular plays at first base.
Tex makes the 3-6-3 DP easier for a RH throwing first baseman than anybody in the game. He also never makes a mistake throwing the baseball. Very unusual for first baseman since most of them are there because their arms aren’t very good.
He scoops everything, has solid range, and also picks off short hop line drives at first better than anybody in the league.
Its not a position that yields spectacular plays as third base would when it comes to diving for balls, long throws, etc.
Is he better than Carlos Pena? This year, he’s been much better defensively than Pena.
The entire infield defense is better on the Yankees this season and there is only one change to it from last season and that’s Tex.
If that’s not an example of how good he is, I don’t know what is.
You’re right Patrick, I’m beating it to death. Peace.
Abdababdaserser: “aren’t results supposed to count?”
The results Joe Mauer can control: .380/.448/.648, 25 HR, Gold Glove defense. Yes, those results are supposed to count.
“an MVP should be able to carry the team somewhat.”
Joe Mauer has carried his team to 8-10 more wins than they would have had without him, just as Tex has carried his team to ~5 more wins than they’d have had without him. So they’ve both been able to carry the team somewhat, but Mauer has done it quite a bit better. Sadly, Mauer is not also able to simultaneously play second, shortstop, and pitcher.
I agree that “MVP” is misnamed, because it gives some people the ridiculous idea that it should have something to do with how well your team does. Basing what is supposed to be an individual award on having the good fortune to be surrounded by good teammates just completely destroys the purpose of the award.
“Mauer was the Player of the Month in May.”
Now that I think of it, I think he and Teixeira were co-players of the month.
Tex and Jeter play in a lineup where 8 guys are going to have 20 HRs and 70 RBIs.
You can’t select just one guy from the lineup because no one is having a year that is far and away better than another guy.
Yeah Tex will lead the team in HRs/RBIs but is his impact that much more than a guy like Damon, who himself is having a career year? Or the aforementioned Jeter?
That is what will hurt Tex. He is the best overall player on a stacked team
“So if a player produced at the following level you think it would be ludicrous for him to win the MVP because, say, his team finished second and didn’t make the playoffs:
.406 BA / 37HR/ 120 RBI/ 135 RS/ .553 OBP/ .735 SLG %/
1.287 OPS”
Well, that player did not win the MVP that year. He lost it to the great Joe D.
“Basing what is supposed to be an individual award on having the good fortune to be surrounded by good teammates just completely destroys the purpose of the award.”
Do we even know what the purpose of the award is anymore? I don’t. Is it to reward a great offensive season or is it to reward a player for providing the most value to his team?
SJ,
The Yankee infield defense is a lot better this year because (1) Tex is a lot better defensively than Giambi was, (2) Cano is playing better defensively this year, and (3) Jeter, while he was fine defensively last year, is even better this year. That’s a lot of improvement.
And, my Teixeira arguments are based on my watching the games, not the stats, although I use them. And my Tino opinions are based on watching him play a lot of games way back when.
Peace – I agree to disagree with you, I don’t think you’re an idiot.
I do think it’s still too early to decide who the MVP is.
Mauer just had surgery this year, right? If he starts feeling fatigued, goes through a slump, and then gets shut down because his team is out of the race (doubtful, but who knows), then that hurts him.
Likewise, if the Red Sox make a surge, and Teixeira gets bit hits all September to keep the Yankees on top, than that’s going to make him look super clutch and valuable.
“If the player has incredible numbers its hard to deny them the MVP, but an MVP should be able to carry the team somewhat. Being sub .500 isn’t impressive”
Teixeira isn’t carrying the Yankees anywhere. He’s one of the 2-3 best players on the game’s best team, but he is by no means carrying the Yankees. You put Mauer on the Yankees and Teixeira on the Twins, you think the Twins are any better than they are now? Or the Yankees any worse? Me neither. I’ll agree the award is misnamed and should really be Player of the Year rather than MVP, but Mauer is the guy either way.
Its pretty tough to argue against Mauer right now.
If I was voting, I’d have Mauer, Tex and Jeter in my Top 3 as of today.
A lot can happen between now and the end of the season.
However, the season Mauer is putting together, while playing the most demanding position in the game, is astounding.
As of today, he has to be the frontrunner for MVP.
Teixeira and Jeter have not been treated to pie this year.
I thought Yankee fans only find players valuable who step up in the big moments?
“I’ll agree the award is misnamed and should really be Player of the Year rather than MVP, but Mauer is the guy either way.”
Change the name of the award to Player of the Year and I’ll vote for Mauer. Otherwise, it’s Tex.
Peter, great work as always…we all know that our handy 1st baseman will be on many of those ballots, or so we hope
Laura, I see where you’re coming from. I really do. And you’re view on what the MVP criteria should be is a reasonable one.
Its just not what the criteria actually is. The criteria states:
“1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.”
That’s pretty clear. Player’s are judged on the value that their offense and defense adds to their team. The criteria makes no mention of the “quality of the player’s team.”
Based on the rules as written, a player whose offense and defense contributes a lot to a mediocre team should win the award over a player whose offense and defense contributes less to a better team.
Again, the criteria you think is best is logical. I also think the current criteria is also logical, but it makes no more or less sense than the criteria you support (in my opinion).
If the criteria was:
“1. Actual value of a player to a contending team, that is, strength of offense and defense.”
…then I would say Jeter wins, edging out Tex.
But based on the current criteria, its Mauer. Easy. (If the award was decided today).
Laura: “Do we even know what the purpose of the award is anymore? I don’t. Is it to reward a great offensive season or is it to reward a player for providing the most value to his team?”
Fair enough, but clearly, the award was intended to reward an individual player’s performance. What is the point of an award that rewards an individual player for happening to play for the right (i.e. winning) team?
The second part of your quote is the problem: “the most value” has many definitions. I contend that Mauer has provided the most value to his team of anyone in the Major Leagues this year, and by far, and the same would be true wehther he played for the Twins or the Yankees or the Nationals; his “value” is about 8-10 wins, while Tex’s “value” is about 5. Obviously, you’re defining value a different way, and there are several possible ways (production per dollar, for instance, in which case you’d have to give it to a pre-arbitration guy every year). I just think the only way it makes sense, as an individual award, is to accept the (very supportable) definition by which “most valuable” = “best.”
The “value” in Most Valuable Player has always meant, to me, value in the pennant (or Wild Card) race. I don’t think A-Rod deserved the award in 2003 (I’d have picked Posada, Manny, or Pedro) and I don’t think Ripken deserved his 2nd award in 1991 (I might’ve chosen Frank Thomas, instead). And don’t get me started on Andre Dawson in 1987. He wasn’t even among the 10 most valuable players in the NL, let alone the MVP.
I don’t insist that a player’s team make the post-season. I do think that an MVP’s team should at least be in serious contention for a playoff spot (i.e., be within 3-5 games through, say, the 150th game). To me, if a player’s team is out of the race, then his performance, brilliant as it may be, has little value, because the whole point is not to compile brilliant seasons, but to win playoff spots and titles. Something is lost if he piles up a huge season in essentially meaningless games (except those against teams still in contention).
So, to me, if the Twins stay in the race, then Mauer’s clearly the MVP. If they fall out of it entirely, then he’s not.
I do expect Mauer will win it, though, in spite of my own feelings on the issue. Jeter and Tex, if taken seriously by the voters, will knock each other out.
Someone above suggested Mauer is having the greatest offensive season of all time.Let’s wait until the season is over before we ordain Mauer.
Piazza in 1997 had the greatest offensive season that I know of.Dickey in 1937 and Campanella in 1953 not to shabby either.
Pudge the 1999 MVP put together an OK season.
My point is, why are Cano and Jeter better this year? Tex is one of the reasons why they are better. Its especially in Cano’s case.
Cano doesn’t have to play as close to first base anymore because of Tex’s range. That change in positioning has saved the Yankees a lot of runs so far this season. It doesn’t necessarily show up on a stat sheet because I don’t know how one can accurately quantify range if you are just positioned correctly to make plays.
I saw Tino play all the time and I thought he was a very good first baseman. He isn’t close to being as good as Tex. There isn’t one part of Tino’s defensive that was better than Tex’s.
Since I’ve been watching Yankee Baseball, which spans more decades than I care to remember, the only first baseman better than Tex was Mattingly.
Donnie Baseball was the best defensive first baseman I’ve ever seen with the Yankees.
Chris Chambliss was as good defensively as Tino with 2 fewer rings. Tex was better than both of them, IMO.
Jim Spencer, although he wasn’t a Yankee for long, was also very good, as was Minky in his short time in NY.
“Laura, I see where you’re coming from. I really do. And you’re view on what the MVP criteria should be is a reasonable one.”
Wow. You think I’m reasonable? Most people find me unreasonable. You may need to seek professional help.
Hey, to each his own. We all have our differing opinions. That’s what makes this such a great country.
The entire infield defense is better on the Yankees this season and there is only one change to it from last season and that’s Tex.
=================
Yeah, just from watching, and especially at the beginning of the year, I find myself saying “Kinda doubt Giambi would have snagged that” and “no way Giambi makes that throw home” etc.
Tex has been great at first base. I’m surprised some stat is saying he’s been only average. It seems like he’s saving a run or two every other game.
“Well, that player did not win the MVP that year. He lost it to the great Joe D.”
That was my point. The notion that it would have been ludicrous for Williams to win the award in 1941 seems far fetched whether he won it or not.
And as the years have gone on, that decision to give Dimaggio the MVP over Williams seems more and more invalid. History gives scope, it provides context and Williams season now only looks all the greater.
And the decision to give Dimaggio the award in 1941 all the worse.
Love Jeter and Teix, obviously. But Mauer leads (and in some categories, by HUGE margins) in BA, OBP, SA, OPS, Adjusted OPS, Runs Created, Adjusted Batting Runs, Adjusted Batting Wins and Offensive Winning Percentage. That can’t be ignored, esp. by a catcher.
Mauer is on course to shatter the record for BA by a catcher (.362 by Bill Dickey in 1936, just barely ahead of Piazza’s .362 in 1997). He is on target do win his record THIRD batting average title by a catcher.
He also has a GG and will probably get that this year, too.
It will be an interesting vote, but Mauer so far dominates the AL and Pujols the NL.
Pete stated that he covered the Mets in 2005. My guess is that his MVP vote that year went to the winner—Pujols.
Someone commented on Munson’s one error in 1971. The only reason for the error was this: Andy Etchebarren of the Orioles barrelled into Thurman on a play at the plate down in Old Memorial Stadium. Thurman was knocked unconscious with a concussion and dropped the ball. A tough E-2 but that was his only E that year.
Betsy,
lol. If you checked it out today, you’ll see Rosenthal’s guest appearance. Dan Patrick’s really good. He managed to make Rosenthal sound taller than he really is.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
I have a feeling this year’s mvp race will cause a lot of dissension.
When you have two respected “writers” all a twitter and going at it, the line is really being drawn in the sand.
I don’t care what the rules say, “valuable” means helps your team play meaningful baseball.
Besides losing the MVP when he hit .406 in 1941, Williams also had two triple crown years (1942 and 1947) where he didn’t win the MVP. Joe Gordon won in 1942 and Joe D. in 1947.
Oh, also saw that morneau is out for a bit. Back to minny for some tests. That will boost mauer’s chances for the mvp award as it’ll now be mauer carrying the team, not the m&m boys.
Mauer is going to get the MVP… Jeter and Tex will split votes… but I really don’t care the only thing that Jeter and Tex are worried about is winning the world series… as should everyone here….
One player can’t control an entire baseball team playing “meaningful baseball”.
The fact is, Minnesota has no pitching and that’s not Joe Mauer’s fault.
If he didn’t play for the Twins, they would lose 100 games this year. That’s how valuable he is as a player.
If Tex or Jeter were to miss the year for the Yankees, they wouldn’t lose 100 games. That’s not to minimize the effect or season both Tex and Jeter are having. Its more to magnify just how historic a year Joe Mauer is having to date.
When you consider he’s also playing the toughest position on the field, its simply remarkable what he is doing.
Then Bill, by your definition, ARod should win the MVP because the results of the entire team are incredibly higher than when he was out.
Was the return of Mauer to the Twins as effective in terms of winning percentage?
An MVP should also be a player who elevates the play of the others playing around him. Tex has shown that the infield is better overall because he helps keep them from making errors. Cano is a better fielder now in part due to Tex playing first. The MVP should be about how that one single player has effected the results of the whole team, rather than the individual accomplishments of that one player.
If it is meant to be the most outstanding player of that particular year then it should be re-named because then the team results wouldn’t matter, it is strictly an individual award.
An MVP award is such that it should mean if that player wasn’t there the team would not have finished the season in contention.
Helping to elevate the team into contention should play a major role in determining the MVP award.
Well stated, Evan. You make a strong argument. The marginal value of 5 more wins to a team that would otherwise finish 4 games out of the playoffs is greater than the marginal value of 10 teams to a team that would otherwise finidh 20 games out of the playoffs. Therefore, a player worth 5 wins above replacement level presents more value to his team if those 5 wins are the difference between making the playoffs than a player worth 10 wins above replacement level if those wins make no difference as to whether the team makes the playoffs are not.
But wouldn’t this work in the other direction? Let’s say the best player in the game is on the most dominant team in the game. The team wins the division by 15 games and the player is worth 8 wins above a replacement level player. He had the best season in the league, but his team would have won the division anyway. Does this player not deserve the MVP? Based on your argument, he doesn’t. This would mean that if the MVP were around in 1927, Babe Ruth might not have deserved it. Does this seem like the right result to you? It doesn’t to me.
Look it another way. Let’s say the Yankees and Angels pull away and win their division big time. That would mean the MVP could only come from the Rangers, Red Sox, Rays, White Sox, and Tigers. Jeter, Tex, Mauer would all be disqualified. Again, that doesn’t feel right.
Furthermore, the MVP criteria as currently worded, is meant to reward individuals for superior performance. It seems a little unfair to ignore the plain meaning of the award’s criteria and judge players partially based on factors they cannot control (i.e. how good the rest of their team is).
I’d like to think I’d be consistent. If it was Jorge having the greatest season, but our team was hovering around the .500 mark I’d give the nod to a player on a winning team.
It’s just an award to me, one that’s not without its biases. So I don’t get worked up about it.
It’s usually round up the usual suspects, and pick the best of the bunch.
Your Barletts and (miggy) Cabreras won’t even make the top 5. Names do matter. Last year was an exception, as the field was tres weak. So weak that even, Youkilis splitting the votes couldn’t prevent the award from going to the land of the Hobbit.
Oh, in my above comment I was re-stating what I took to be Evan’s position. I was not stating it as my own.
Yeah it’s called the Most Valuable Player award, not the Most Valuable Player Who Plays For A Team That Makes The Playoffs award.
If you want to give the MVPWPFATTMTP to someone then Jeter or Tex would probably win. However, that’s not what Pete has to do. He has to pick the MVP. Right now, the MVP is clearly Joe Mauer.
“Besides losing the MVP when he hit .406 in 1941, Williams also had two triple crown years (1942 and 1947) where he didn’t win the MVP. Joe Gordon won in 1942 and Joe D. in 1947.”
Yup. And those votes look more and more flawed as time goes on given how Williams level of performance has remained largely unmatched.
Hitting .406 with a 1.287 OPS or winning the triple crown doesn’t mean you are the most valuable player because you happen to play on a team that just wasn’t as good as a historically great dynasty?
“An MVP award is such that it should mean if that player wasn’t there the team would not have finished the season in contention”
You’ve eliminated Teixeira right there. Replace him with a league average 1B (say Hank Blalock or Overbay) and the Yankees still have a 2-3 game lead. Not the same as 6.5, but they’d most certainly be in contention.
Oh, and Cowherd made some great points. Some Twins fan e-mailed him saying if mauer was on the Yankees he’d win it hands down, blah, blah, blah.
Cowherd read back the teams over the past 20 years. Oakland won the most, Yankees twice. And that was because Alex was far and above superior (and on a contendah!). And someone from minny won, too!
I’m of the school of thought that the Most “Valuable” Player should come from a winning team. Otherwise it would be the “Best” Player Award.
However, I would make an exception if a player from a losing team is really head and shoulders above the everyone else. Unfortunately for Tex and Jeter, this year that player is Joe Mauer.
“The fact is, Minnesota has no pitching and that’s not Joe Mauer’s fault.”
Or isn’t it possible that the pitching isn’t quite as good because Mauer is not calling a good game?
I’m not saying that Mauer is doing that, but the point could be made that he is not helping his team as much because he is a portion of the weakness of the team.
Being the catcher means that he plays a role in the pitching as well. Be it from calling the pitches that they throw to knowing the batters. As well as watching the pitchers to see what they are doing during the games that are effecting how well or poorly they are pitching.
Granted you can’t polish a turd, but you also can’t discount that pitching can be elevated by the quality of the catcher. (Haven’t we heard ad nausium over the years about the “computer brain” of Veritek behind the plate?)
Saying that without Mauer they would lose 100 games seems quite absurd as they weren’t on that pace when he was out.
One could say strictly from a statistical point of view Ted Williams deserved the award in 1941 .DiMaggio won because he was on a WS winner and of course the 56 game hitting streak captured the hearts of all Americans.
If you go back to 1937 Charlie Gehringer won the MVP award because he batted .381 with very little power .Although the next 4 players all had better all around seasons-DiMaggio,Greenberg,Gehrig,Dickey .The Yanks also won the WS.Gehringer was a Tiger.
So one will always find voting anomalies…
Guess when Jeter breaks the Yanks hit record
ok rules are simple:
who’s in?
PS I’ve gotten permission from Erica to hone in on her gaming cartel.
RULE CHANGE: Guesses must be in before the First pitch of tonights game.
Closest to guess which game/inning jeter breaks record wins.
No price is right rules.
Participants are responsible for keeping track of their guesses.
Multiple gueesses will be frowned upon.
Pick the game/inning of the tieing hit for a contest tiebreaker
Isn’t there a Silver Slugger award for the best hitter? And the gold glove for the best defender?
I give up handicapping these things, though. They keep moving the goalposts for Jeter. But I’ll bet he doesn’t care, he’d easily give up any chance for the mvp for another ring.
“Rex August 21st, 2009 at 1:10 pm
“An MVP award is such that it should mean if that player wasn’t there the team would not have finished the season in contention”
You’ve eliminated Teixeira right there. Replace him with a league average 1B (say Hank Blalock or Overbay) and the Yankees still have a 2-3 game lead. Not the same as 6.5, but they’d most certainly be in contention.”
Not necessarily. You are discounting the improvement to the infield defense and just taking that arbitrary “wins above replacement” stat.
Cano looks far better this year. Jeter looks far better this year, and both of them have benefited from Teixeira being at first making plays. How many games does that influence?
If the Yankees sweep Boston and are 9.5 up, they should rest everyone this week, go easy on the Rangers and sit back and watch the panic grow in Boston.
Pete,
It’s a great honor and congratulations to you. I know you’ll do the right thing (whatever that may be) when the time comes.
So i just watched The Girl Next Door, was really enjoyable. I straight away went on youtube to listen to ‘Under Pressure’ by David Bowie and Queen.
So, what are you guys listening to at the moment?
And if morneau wasn’t having such a great season, Jeter would win his lifetime achievement mvp.
On the train headed to Boston for the game. Really a bit of a downer as all the Yanks have to do is one game and get out of Dodge. The lead is commanding at this point and that takes a little excitement out of the series IMO. (Red Sox fan/season ticket holder perspective) Still fighting for our playoff lives so that is the importance instead of the AL East.
MVP IMO is not even close. Joe Mauer is having an amazing season on a team that has a very thin 25 man roster. What he is doing at the plate as a catcher is out of this world.
Hope the regulars here are having a great Friday.
-dennis
Fun fact: Zach Greinke’s WAR is actually higher than Mauer’s. Not to say he should be MVP, but it’s still interesting.
And even though he’s not at the top of the leaderboards, I’d like to see Franklin Gutierrez get a few 10th place votes or so. His defense is amazing, has him flying under the radar, AND puts him in about 12th in AL position players WAR (right in front of… Tex).
That’s logical, 283, but I don’t think it’s “right”.
What I mean is this:
If a player is worth 8 games above replacement to a team that wins the pennant by 15 games, then, in the sense we’re talking about it, there is no one Most Valuable Player. The pennant itself contains more “value” than any one player’s contribution to it.
In that case, it makes sense to pick the best player on the team that wins the pennant. So Babe is the MVP, after all.
Now, if Babe is leading the Yankees to the Eastern Division flag, then I might look at the the Central and West winners and the Wild Card winner to see if there is a reasonably comparable player on one of those teams to give the award to instead. If not, then Babe gets his plaque anyway.
========================================
And just one more little point; the criterion I’m setting up here actually helps Mauer in one peculiar sense. Since the AL Central is the worst division, his poor Twins are still in a race they’d be nowhere close to in the other divisions. As such, he’s still alive for the MVP Award by my standard, whereas Ichiro, Prince Fielder, and Mark Reynolds don’t even register. (And you know all three will get a few votes from the writers.)
So it’s Joe Mauer’s fault that the Twins don’t have a starting pitcher with an ERA under 4, or that they don’t have one dependable setup guy to get to Nathan.
Jeter and Tex are great. They also play on a team that has C.C. Sabbathia, A.J. Burnett and Joba Chamberlain and Andy Pettitte for starters.
Any one of those four pitchers would be the ace of the Minnesota Twins staff right now.
Joe Mauer is doing all Joe Mauer can do, and that’s be far and away the best player in the AL.
Uncle Ellsworth (#2 needs 25 to tie #4)
August 21st, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Guess when Jeter breaks the Yanks hit record
ok rules are simple:
who’s in?
PS I’ve gotten permission from Erica to hone in on her gaming cartel.
RULE CHANGE: Guesses must be in before the First pitch of tonights game.
Closest to guess which game/inning jeter breaks record wins.
No price is right rules.
Participants are responsible for keeping track of their guesses.
Multiple gueesses will be frowned upon.
Pick the game/inning of the tieing hit for a contest tiebreaker
*****
This is in fact, an Erica endorsed contest
My guess is:
Tie 9/8 1st inning
Breaker 9/8 3rd inning
Let Mauer have the MVP. Tex can have the World Series win.
Everyone makes blanket statements saying “If Tex wasn’t here the Yankees wouldn’t be in first place!” How do you know that? Please show us the relevant stats that prove your assertion.
My guess is there are only a few people on this blog that can make these kinds of arguments with actual evidence backing it up.
“…judge players partially based on factors they cannot control (i.e. how good the rest of their team is).”
In some cases, incredibly good seasons from one player can have a negative impact on the rest of the team. Other players not playing up to potential because they expect that great player to hit a long ball.
So, while they may not be in direct control of what the results of the team are, they are indirectly a cause of the results.
dennis,
You may be right. However, there will be some serious ranting if the mvp comes from a losing team. There’s no worse label in sports than a team that can’t win half of its 162 games. Well maybe 0-16. But that’s about it.
CB
August 21st, 2009 at 12:49 pm
“Well, that player did not win the MVP that year. He lost it to the great Joe D.”
That was my point. The notion that it would have been ludicrous for Williams to win the award in 1941 seems far fetched whether he won it or not.
And as the years have gone on, that decision to give Dimaggio the MVP over Williams seems more and more invalid. History gives scope, it provides context and Williams season now only looks all the greater.
And the decision to give Dimaggio the award in 1941 all the worse.
————————————————————
Williams won the Triple Crown in 1942 and 1947 and finished behind Gordon (21 points) and DiMaggio (1 point), although Williams had overwelmingly greater numbers.
Anyone else nervous about this 3 game set?
“This is in fact, an Erica endorsed contest”
“from a Deli owner, that’s a rave”
From an old pickle commercial
Arn
August 21st, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Anyone else nervous about this 3 game set?
Betsy is.
So again, there needs to be an award for Best Player……There is no one definition of MVP – everyone has their own interpretation. In my opinion, an MVP should come from a playoff team unless there is no other worthy candidate. That’s just my opinion -others feel the same way, and then others feel differently. Voters are voting based on different standards – how is any MVP vote then really even accurate or true? There needs to be one standard……The problem is that even with one standard, humans are still going to vote the way they want to. The MVP award is open to pitchers, but some voters won’t vote for a pitcher for that award, claiming that they’ve already got the Cy Young. Personally, I agree with that…but that’s not the point. Even with pitchers being eligible for the MVP, some just won’t vote for them. Therefore, instructing voters to consider players on losing/non-playoff teams won’t do any good because people will vote the way they want to. That is why we need two awards. The Best Player goes to the best player and the MVP goes to the best, most valuable player on a playoff/contending team. Of course, one player can get both awards…
You bet I’m nervous, lol
See, the problem with steroids is that it is not black and white. The steroid era started in the 1990s under Bug Selig but it morphed into a culture that pervaded the 2000s as well. Testing can only go so far… HGH isin’t tested for. There are undetectable steroids. Players will not agree to an Olympic blood test. Selig’s hands are tied. He has done an excellent job of cleaning it up.
One of the mistakes people are making with Tex is that they are attributing specific marginal wins to him.
People are mixing up the way in which he was acquired with the Red Sox losing out to the difference between the teams.
And while that is true from an off season move perspective that’s a plus to the front office more than it is to the player.
So it is true that without Tex the yankees wouldn’t be in first place.
But it’s also true that if the yankees didn’t have Jeter they wouldn’t be in first place.
If they didn’t have CC they wouldn’t be in first place. Same with AJ.
Quite, honestly, when you look at marginal difference in performance, the biggest gap the yankees have over the sox is by far Jeter at SS and second, Posada at catcher, third matsui at DH.
Acquiring Tex took away a huge marginal advantage the Sox would have had at 1b. But Tex and Youk is largely a wash.
Wins are fungible. You can’t directly attribute all of the marginal wins that make up the yankees 6 game lead to Tex just becuase the Sox just missed out on him and the yankees acquired him.
Uncle Ellsworth,
Since I am going to the night game on Sept. 7th, I say Sept. 7th night game – 1st inning – tie record
5th inning – break record
“There’s no worse label in sports than a team that can’t win half of its 162 games.”
Sure there is. Being labeled the “Knicks”.
For the “Tex over Mauer for MVP because Tex plays on a better team” argument:
How does a pitching staff sucking make a hitter less valuable? It’s like saying “Oh, that classic 1969 Camaro SS isn’t as valuable now because there is some water in the gas.” The Camaro itself is pristine and has the same value as an identical Camaro with dry gas. The fact that one is currently running a little rougher than the other doesn’t mean it’s has less value.
Adding some outside variable shouldn’t change a players value.
Arn,
I am. Nervous that the lead will only be 3.5.
Everyone,
Thanks for the articles. Just catching up now. The article about the two minor league systems was interesting.
I don’t know how Baseball America, etc. rank farm systems, I’m too much of a novice at this point.
But I place a high value on having major league ready players on-call. If Posada and Jose go down, do we have a catcher we can plug in? Yes. If Wang goes down, do we have a pitcher to take his place? Yes. If Jeter has an issue do we have a SS to take his place? Yes.
That to me is the difference right now between Boston and us. Add to that the fact that the Yankees affiliates have done very well the past two seasons, and you’ve got a system that’s good and deep.
Mauer is having a historic season and doing it at a rare position.
Teixeria is going to finish with a line of .280/38/110 or so. Certainly not a “wow” season that would derail Mauer from his award.
If Tex was .300/42/128 or something, maybe. But his end of year numbers are not going to be eye popping.
Uncle E-
I’m in: 9/3 1st inning to tie, 5th inning to break the record
Sorry but for now, Mauer is the MVP to me.
If Jorge had a .378 BA, .446 OBP and an OPS of 1.089, would Jeter or Tex still be your MVP choice?
The award is poorly named but MVP to me is an individual stat and therefore team success shouldn’t be a factor
“Williams won the Triple Crown in 1942 and 1947 and finished behind Gordon (21 points) and DiMaggio (1 point), although Williams had overwelmingly greater numbers.”
GB7,
I hear you. And this looks worse and worse as time has gone on.
The idea that Gordon or even Joe D were more “valuable” to their team than Williams was to his just doesn’t seem accurate given how monstrous his production was. How do you win two triple crowns and not be the most valuable player? How do you hit .406 and get on base 55% of the time and not be the most valuable?
Those Red Sox teams depended way more on Williams to win their games than those yankee teams did on Gordon or Joe D. Williams was a singular force on those teams and everything centered on him.
If Jeter has an issue do we have a SS to take his place? Yes
M:
NO! Seems to me you’re suggesting that if Jeter were injured long term and the Yankees had to go with Pena, they’d be OK. Can’t disagree enough. Pena is a bench guy, who can do some things well and almost none of those things involve a bat. That kind of loss would badly hurt the Yankees. They do not have a MLB ready everyday SS to replace Jeter. Using Pena as an everyday SS is no better than Boston using Reddick as an everyday OF. In fact, I’m not sure it’s as good.
Place Mauer #1! And Pujols #1 followed by Hanely/Utley!
I also hope to see Zobrist in the top 5 along with Jeter and I hope Scutaro gets some votes.
If Jeter finishes the season with 20+ HR, 30+ SB, .345 AVG, a .400 OBP, and 80+ RBI, I think you give him the MVP. It’s from the leadoff position and he’s a shortstop. I don’t know how much more valuable of a player you can possibly have. Mauer is more valuable to the Twins, you could argue, but it’s hard to ignore that without Derek Jeter, this team would not be a first place “running away with the division” team.
He’s the biggest reason that they are and that’s really the case for Jeter. Mauer’s case is weakened a bit because his stats are coming in no-pressure situations on a mediocre team with little hope to do much at all this year.
Wasn’t mauer on a historic pace before? And at the rare position? I’ve heard that argument before? He lost out to morneau? Alex? Li’l bit o’ luck? One of those years.
Not arguing so much for anyone else, just saying that your team’s standing should be a factor, even though the rules specifically discourage that.
“I also hope to see Zobrist in the top 5 along with Jeter and I hope Scutaro gets some votes.”
Look out for one Bob Kelly Abreu. He’ll be getting some votes. He’s made a huge difference in that Halos offense. Probably a top 5-8 vote getter in the MVP.
CB
August 21st, 2009 at 1:34 pm
“Williams won the Triple Crown in 1942 and 1947 and finished behind Gordon (21 points) and DiMaggio (1 point), although Williams had overwelmingly greater numbers.”
GB7,
I hear you. And this looks worse and worse as time has gone on.
The idea that Gordon or even Joe D were more “valuable” to their team than Williams was to his just doesn’t seem accurate given how monstrous his production was. How do you win two triple crowns and not be the most valuable player? How do you hit .406 and get on base 55% of the time and not be the most valuable?
Those Red Sox teams depended way more on Williams to win their games than those yankee teams did on Gordon or Joe D. Williams was a singular force on those teams and everything centered on him.
————————————————————
From what I’ve been able to piece together from different books and articles, one of the writers from Boston (Dave Egan) refused to even vote for Williams above 8th place in any voting because he disliked Williams and made it his sworn duty to run Williams out of town. Egan is also the idiot that promoted and voted for the cab driver that ran over and almost killed Casey Stengel as Boston’s Man Of the Year.
Suzuki and Victorino for Most Valuable Hawaiians?
Mel.
I am wrong more than I am right!
CB.
Great post re:Tex. He is a big difference right now between both clubs. Cashman deserves far, far more credit than he gets. (RandyI will puke when he reads that).. however he should be executive of the year if the season plays out where the standings are today.
He lowered the payroll while signing the top 3 free agents as well had the pressure of moving into a new stadium with the highest priced seats in MLB. If the Yanks do win the WS I hope he gets his due.
Or, perhaps I respect him because he looks like he sleeps less than Me??
GB7. I sent you a note on the blog last eve. I hope you are well and that mother and twins are doing great!
-dennis
“Wins are fungible. You can’t directly attribute all of the marginal wins that make up the yankees 6 game lead to Tex just becuase the Sox just missed out on him and the yankees acquired him.”
No, but you can attribute them to his stellar play at 1st. How many errors has Tex saved the infield so far this season? 25? 30? How many runs has he saved? I watch every game (except for those dreaded FOX blackout games) and I see Tex make a great play at least once a game. Sometimes, we get treated to multiple great plays. I don’t know specifically how many games Tex has saved or won for us with his bat or his glove, but I guarantee you that the number is probably higher than you think.
Rex,
The whole point is that we’re better equipped to deal with losses at certain key positions than the Red Sox are.
Perhaps someone can figure out for me how many SS the Red Sox have run through this season. And how much they paid Julio Lugo to go hit .300+ for the Cards.
But, to play devils advocate, say the quality of the team the player is on matters. Wouldn’t a good player be more valuable to a bad team then a good team?
For example, say there is a player available: his stats are .275/.340/.425 with solid defense. The Yankees probably wouldn’t consider him. They have so many other excellent hitters, this guy wont factor. On the other hand, the Pirates drool over the guy and instantly make him their starting shortstop. Doesn’t this mean the Pirates find him more valuable than the Yankees do?
My MVPs to this point in order:
Mauer, Jeter, Teix
Abdababdaserser: a stat isn’t “arbitrary” just because you don’t understand it. But even without WAR or anything else, the notion that the Yankees might be out of contention without Teixeira (or Jetes, or any one player) but run away with the division with him is so completely and laughably insane that it’s hard to believe you’re being serious.
The rest of your response to me is pure BS. Not sure what “my definition” is that you’re talking about, because my whole point is that it doesn’t MATTER how the team does. There are too many other variables (like, at least 24 of them) for one player to have a consistent and measurable effect. If you’re going to penalize Mauer because his coming back didn’t have a huge effect on their winning percentage, then you’re blaming him for Kevin Slowey getting hurt and the rest of the pitching falling apart (and no, it’s NOT possible that the pitching is bad because he calls a bad game–you really don’t know anything about baseball at all). There’s no way to base MVP on team performance and have it make any sense as a concept.
Why is it Mauer’s fault that their team has no pitching?
It should take nothing away from the fact that he is having a historic season.
“Or, perhaps I respect him because he looks like he sleeps less than Me??”
LOL! Dennis you’re the best. What a line.
I think Cashman was waiting for this off season for a long time and saw it as his time to really put his stamp on the future of the club.
Not trading for Santana set up this off season and the 2009 yanks.
Funny to go back to the winter of 2007.
How many Sox fans would even think of trading Lester for Santana right now one for one?
Hughes has a much less compelling case than Lester. But I personally wouldn’t trade the next 5 years of hughes career for the next 5 of Santana’s.
Why is Jim Rice lumping Jeter in with Manny and Arod regarding what’s wrong with today’s MLB players as he addressed Little League players?
http://sports.espn.go.com/spor.....id=4414291
M:
You’re probably right about that. I was disagreeing specifically at the notion that Pena is anywhere close to good enough to be an everyday SS at this level and that the Yankees wouldn’t suffer from having to use him as such. He isn’t near being an adequate replacement for Jeter or any other good SS on a long term basis. He’s fine in spot starts or off the bench.
Jim Rice has lost his marbles. You see the ESPN story where he called out Manny, A-Rod and JETER?
I’m with Laura. mauer plays the more important position, but Tex has done something magical to the infield. Similar to what Bartlett did to the Rays during their historic season last year.
In the NBA, stats aren’t as important as the question, “Does he make his teammates better?”
That’s one criteria that’s not used in baseball, but if it was then Tex would get major points for that. He’s made all other 4 players around the diamond better.
Jeter will break the record on my birthday.
Saturday September 5th in the 1st inning.
If the Sox make it to the playoffs… I’d have to give it to Jason Bay.
They are a different team when he is in the lineup. You saw how bad their offense was when he wasn’t there. Their team was slumping then he came in and their offense immediately took off.
He is going to have similar numbers to Tex and he would have had a larger impact on his team’s performance. Sox don’t have a lethal lineup like ours. They have to get by with the likes of Ortiz, Green, Gonzalez, Varitek, Reddick etc.
Be fair, Bay deserves the award.
Jim Rice is clearly an idiot…….
dennis-Costanza
August 21st, 2009 at 1:43 pm
GB7. I sent you a note on the blog last eve. I hope you are well and that mother and twins are doing great!
-dennis
————————————————————
Afternoon, Dennis. Sorry that I missed the post, but, I fell asleep. Hope all is well with you and Ms Amy and family.
The twins and Morgan are doing great. The twins have gains 2 pounds each and Morgan has lost 40 pounds. Not sure what she’s happier about. I kept telling her that I was feeding them pizza and beer to gain weight. She didn’t think that was very funny or a good idea. Some people are just hard to please.
Mauer is the MVP if the voting was today.
Tex will have plenty more chances to win the MVP.
Jeter winning the 2009 World Series MVP is what I want to see happen.
Thanks Miggs/Kate/Fran
Note pick a the record tieing hit for tie breaker in case it is needed
Come you other guys, humor me!
“Jim Rice has lost his marbles. You see the ESPN story where he called out Manny, A-Rod and JETER?”
Yeah, lumping Jeter in with those two is rather appalling.
Jason Bay? Holy crap no.
People emphasize Tex’s contribution to the Yanks because getting him was essentially worth double – his value to the Yanks, plus Boston not getting his value.
But overall, Jeter has clearly been more valuable than Texeira. Jeter is the most productive shortstop in the AL, and their are really only two other AL shortstops who even come close – Bartlett and Scutaro. Jeter is much more productive than the average AL shortstop, and there is a wide spread.
On the other hand, while Teixeira has been valuable, he doesn’t particularly stand out among the good AL first baseman. IMO, Cabrera and Youkilis have been slightly better, Morneau about as as good, and Morales not too far behind. And even the average first basemen, like Overbay, Branyon, Butler, Konerko and Pena, while clearly not as good as Texeira, are still pretty decent.
So despite Teixera’s production, on a comparative basis Jeter’s been more valuable.
Wow, just wow. Isn’t Jim Rice the guy who made it in on his last season of eligibility and only with the major backing of Gammons and morgan?
Wow. You’ll find very few people in baseball who would ever say a bad word about Jeter. Why is he not worthy of being a role model?
And to omit him from a list of HOF worthy players when Jeter’s a first balloter?
Wow. Everything that Rice advised the kids to do, Jeter has done. Including working on the weakest parts of his games.
Wow. Just wow.
A-Rod and Manny are cheaters… good for Rice for telling kids not to look up for them just because they are rich and famous.
They are cheaters. Manny quit on his team. A-Rod off-the-field is a mess.
Good for Rice.
“Wow, just wow. Isn’t Jim Rice the guy who made it in on his last season of eligibility and only with the major backing of Gammons and morgan?
Wow. You’ll find very few people in baseball who would ever say a bad word about Jeter. Why is he not worthy of being a role model?
And to omit him from a list of HOF worthy players when Jeter’s a first balloter?
Wow. Everything that Rice advised the kids to do, Jeter has done. Including working on the weakest parts of his games.
Wow. Just wow.”
Yup, I just don’t undertand his Jeter comments and why he said such a thing.
“A-Rod and Manny are cheaters… good for Rice for telling kids not to look up for them just because they are rich and famous.
They are cheaters. Manny quit on his team. A-Rod off-the-field is a mess.
Good for Rice.”
Then why did he lump Jeter with those guys? Also, Arod’s personal life is his business not Rice’s.
Funny, I always just thought of Jim Rice as a terrible selection for the Hall of Fame. Now I know he’s also an incredibly stupid man. Good to know these things.
It’s time for another thrilling round of “Guess the Line Up”
Please post your line ups to me here. Take pity on me, I am swamped and still trying to eat my lunch. Remember to post on new threads that will come up
Guess the Line Up ends today at 3:30. PLEASE carefully check your line ups before submitting. ABSOLUTELY no corrections. If you send me an incorrect line up, I will just disregard it. I don’t have time for people who give me two catchers. Make sure your name is included in the occasional list of line up submissions I post
After today, only 5 rounds for this season of GTLU will remain. See if you can move up the standings and win the title of “Ultimate Line Up Guesser”
So, I suppose Big Papi is someone kids should look up to? Huh?
One thing I’ve noticed about certain late balloters, is they have a major chip on their shoulder. And once they get in, all that bileous crap comes spewing out.
We saw it with Goose Gossage, and apparently Jim Rice feels it’s his duty to speak his mind even though he’s lucky he himself has such a platform to speak from.
“Yup, I just don’t undertand his Jeter comments and why he said such a thing.”
You’d like to think maybe he’d like that one back. Jeter is so not in the Rodriguez/Ramirez league. He is, in fact, representative of much that is right in the game. I don’t think any baseball player should be held up as a role model when there are so many more noble/heroic professions, but Jeter comes as close to being one as any baseball player does.
“Teixeria is going to finish with a line of
.280/38/110 or so.”
Not so different than A-Rods first year in 2004 of
.286/36/106
Clearly mastery of the English language is not one of the skills that helped Jim Rice back into the HOF.
“Also, Arod’s personal life is his business not Rice’s.”
I suspect Rice was referring more to Arod being a PED cheat than any of his personal off the field stuff. God knows there were plenty in Rice’s day with equally polarizing off the field activities.
Mauer. Not even a question. A catcher with his stats?
JeterSS
DamonLF
Tex1B
Alex3B
MatsuiDH
PoasdaC
SwisherSweetRF
Canoli2B
MelkyCF
Head over to fangraphs and get that stat
http://www.fangraphs.com/leade.....mp;month=0
makes your task much easier…
Jeter ss
Damon lf
Tex 1b
ARod 3b
Matsui dh
Posada c
Cano 2b
Swisher rf
Melky cf
Jim Rice should be called immediately by the media for lumping Jeter in with steroid guys. But he won’t, especially not by NESPN.
Amazing he didn’t mention Ortiz. Derek Jeter is a no-doubt first ballot Hall of Famer.
Rice is a guy who slid in on the last ballot, and only because of the New England media campaign creating the myth of Rice “as the most feared hitter” of his era.
I think an apology to Jeter from Rice is forthcoming…and soon.
Tom —
It’s so wrong to call guys who used PEDs “cheaters”. Manny, maybe since he violated the game’s rules and flunked a test, but none of the others did. I don’t endorse the PED use that went on, but everyone associated with the game was complicit in that era. All they were trying to do was get better.
Keep the self righteous sanctimony to yourself.
If Mauer continues his pace, he’s the MVP.
For 2nd place I actually vote Tex and I’ll tell you why.
Jeter would not be having as good of a season defensively if he didn’t have Tex at 1b fielding his throws.
Not to mention Tex covers more space so Cano can now cover more space to his right which also helps Jeter.
If you took Tex off 1b Jeter might not look as good of a candidate. However, if you took Jeter out of SS, Tex would still be a strong candidate.
So my edge goes to Tex over Jeter and Mauer over both of them unless Mauer gets injured or starts to fall off a cliff statistically.
JR Murphy goes 2 for 4 with a double…3 for 7 so far in the pros
Erica-
SS the Captain
LF E’s PBF
1B Tex
3B A-rod
DH Godzilla
C Posada
2B Cano
RF Swishalicious
CF Melky
going w/ the somewhat standard line up
good luck to Ramey & Miggs who have the best chance to beat Girardi
“Jim Rice should be called immediately by the media for lumping Jeter in with steroid guys. But he won’t, especially not by NESPN”
He really should, and I think maybe this time, he might. Say what you will about ESPN’s love of the Red Sox (I think it’s waaaay overrated on this blog), it’s on par with the kissing of the Jeter’s posterior that’s gone on for a decade and a half.
I honestly don’t think ESPN would have printed remarks from the Marshal of the LLWS parade if they didn’t believe they would create a bit of a shyte storm.
Is there a Hall of Fame impeachment process? I want Rice out.
Maybe he’ll release a clarification and say “I did not have factual relations with that statement.”
86w183,
The reason they are cheaters is because steroids were banned from baseball by Fay Vincent in 1991. Players just weren’t tested for them until 2003.
In 1991 Vincent, then commisioner, added steroids to the banned list of drugs/supplements and sent that memo to every team in baseball.
So if you used, you were technically breaking a rule of baseball.
The whole joke of it was without testing there was no way to catch anyone using.
For those of you who say that teh MVP must come from a playoff team: I presume that you are making this argument because you feel that a player can’t be that valuable if his team doesn’t make the playoffs.
But I think you have to look at the other side of the hypothetical. Based on your metric, how valuable is a player to a team that would have made the playoffs without him anyway? If a player’s value is judged by the marginal impact on his team’s ability to make the playoffs, a player worth 12 wins above replacement level (a MONSTER season) who’s team won the division by 20 games has just as little value as a player worth 12 wins above replacement level whose team didn’t make the playoffs.
But, as someone noted before, if Posada was playing the same caliber defense as Mauer and hitting .379/.446/.643/1.089, would we argue he should not deserve the MVP? I doubt it. But if he put up those kinds of numbers and the Yankees won the division by 20 games, then the marginal impact he had on whether the Yankees won the division or not would be the same as Mauer’s. In other words, the Yankees would have won the division anyway with a replacement level catcher.
In this scenario, both Posada and Mauer would have had the same impact on whether their team made the playoffs and put up the exact same numbers. But, under the metric suggested by many on this board, only Posada should be able to win the award, and the only difference between the two is his teammates performed better. This doesn’t seem fair.
WAR
Mauer: 6.4
Jeter: 5.3
Teix: 3.9
Pete, you are telling me that if we only win 1/3 in Fenway vs the Red Sox, and have a 5 game lead with about 35 games to go and 3 head to heads left (all at home), it is ’cause for concern’…
I totally disagree.
Erica,
Jetes SS
Damon LF
Tex 1B
Alex 3B
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cano 2B
Swish RF
Melky CF
Rice is irrelevant.
sounds like tex to me
Rice is a side dish.
“JR Murphy goes 2 for 4 with a double…3 for 7 so far in the pros”
The guy was on a long break…and as soon as he strapped it on Boom! Maybe the scouts were right about him after all.
He’ll say that he didn’t mean to lump Jeter in with those other two. But what are his reasons for calling out Jeter? And Ichiro’s in, but Jeter’s not? Because Ichiro’s 150 lbs.?
And why is he so certain that Thome’s clean? He’s built like a lumberjack.
Oh, brother. But thanks, anyway, Jeter’s really going to be motivated. Tito must be thinking WTH?
Mauer should win the MVORP award for sure, no?
G Love-
Good first baseman field throws from their infielders. If a player can’t field those throws, he doesn’t play first base. Tex may be better at it, but the difference is miniscule.
This business about Tex allowing Cano to slide over, and Cano covering for Jeter, is IMO just Yankee fanboy hooey and not accurate. Jeter’s range has flat out improved over the last few years, due to better conditioning and perhaps better positioning, and Cano is just playing better defense this year than he did last year.
Jeter is a good defensive shortstop this year, Cano is a good defensive second baseman this year and Teixeira is a good defensive first baseman. You don’t need to search any farther than that.
Erica-
Jeter SS
Damon LF
Tex 1B
A-Rod 3B
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cano 2B
Swish RF
Melky CF
Rice wasn’t just ripping on steroid guys. He was ripping on today’s player in general and looked stupid for doing so whether he lumped Jeter in or not.
Like his generation was full of choir boys. One more reason why Keith Law’s comments about listening to older players doesn’t sound too off.
Erica-
Jeter- SS
Damon- LF
Teixeira- 1B
A-Rod – 3B
Matsui- DH
Posada- C
Cano- 2B
Swisher- RF
Cabrera- CF
I’ll keep this one simple, tomorrow’s will be much different:
Jeter SS
Damon LF
Teixeira 1B
Rodriguez 3B
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cano 2B
Swisher RF
Cabrera CF
1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.
3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
4. Former winners are eligible.
5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.
#2 crosses ARod and Mauer off the list. How can vote for a guy who missed a whole month? Got to follow the rules.
Wow, Rice has got to be held accountable for the Jeter remark. That’s infuriating. What could he possibly be implying? That Jeter took banned substances? Never even a whisper of that. That he doesn’t play hard? Ridiculous. That he’s sloppy, unprepared, or unprofessional in any way? Uh… does the guy ever even need a haircut?
Pete, any chance you can link to the story on the main page of the blog? More people should know about this.
Except for Jeter not changing positions (and why should he? he’s played SS all his life), there’s not a selfish bone in Jeter’s body when it comes to baseball.
Erica, looks like I’m going with the standard lineup as well…
Jeter SS
Damon LF
Teixeira 1B
Rodriguez 3B
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cano 2B
Swisher RF
Cabrera CF
WAR what is it good for?
J-Dawg,
GTLU only runs on weekdays. Next round is Tuesday
If Teixeira didn’t have an absolutely horrible April, we’d be talking about his 40 homers, 110 RBI’s, an 11 game AL East lead, and a sure MVP. Just the way things go sometimes, especially getting adjusted to New York and no protection in the line-up.
upstate kate-
thanks, i’m hoping i can get a lineup right again one of these days! my huge lead in the standings dissipated quickly!
Uncle Ellsworth, do you accept entrants into your contest who are banned from Erica’s contest?
“You see a Manny Ramirez, you see an A-Rod [Alex Rodriguez], you see [Derek] Jeter … Guys that I played against and with, these guys you’re talking about cannot compare,” Rice said to Little Leaguers gathered in the cafeteria.
You might want to hear what the” ….” after Jeter was before you hire the hit on Rice.
Whole quotes tell more than sound bites.
Didn’t read all of the MVP arguments but I did read some. I’m sure someone suggested this already – and even though I seriously don’t care about the award – I would say pragmatically speaking that Mauer is ahead of Tex and probably everyone else for one prime reason. And it’s actually Tex’s words that brought me to this:
“All the credit goes to my teammates,” Teixeira said. If guys aren’t getting on in front of me, I’m not getting RBIs. If guys aren’t hitting behind me, I’m not getting pitches to hit home runs. I love being a part of this lineup.”
Mauer can’t say the same thing and still his production is out of control. And he does it with having to play one of the toughest positions on the field – catcher. If the writers took seriously the part about it not having to be from a contender, I think at this point Mauer would be the choice.
JMO
Erica heres the lineup – thanks – and glad to see I wasnt the only one who thought the Jim Rice comments on Jeter were out of line – maybe he was taken out of context – strange
1. jeter ss
2. damon lf
3. tex 1b
4. arod 3b
5. matsui dh
6. posada c
7. cano 2b
8. swisher rf
9. melky cf
Nick in SF in Santa Rosa
August 21st, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Uncle Ellsworth, do you accept entrants into your contest who are banned from Erica’s contest?
Yes. I’m all about redemption.
“I suspect Rice was referring more to Arod being a PED cheat than any of his personal off the field stuff. God knows there were plenty in Rice’s day with equally polarizing off the field activities.”
Rice didn’t mentioned Arod’s personal life, another poster on this blog did which is why I quoted him in my previous post.
Erica,
Sorry I forgot, it’s been a LONG day.
“fan hooey”? LOL
This coming from someone whose only argument to date for Tino being better than Tex is Tex doesn’t “dive for balls”?
It’s one thing to play the role of contrarian. It’s another to just disagree for the sake if disagreeing.
It’s not “fan hooey” about infield positioning. It’s been the topic of conversation about what Mick Kelleher has been doing with the infielders all year and why he is doing it.
Easiest way to resolve the debate.
E-mail Pete and ask Jim to interview Mick Kelleher and ask him to talk about infield positioning, Tex, and what role (if any), Tex plays in such positioning.
Erica, with so few games remaining before Sept. 1, it would be very easy to run the game over the weekend, even if you are not here to keep tabs.
Just set a window in which people can post lineups — perhaps the cutoff would be within 5 minutes of when the game thread goes up or something — and then there will be a record of all the lineups. Then, anyone who posted a correct lineup would have a record of it and could post the link later on when you are around.
The number of people with correct lineups who want to be counted would be pretty small. The other details could be tweaked to prevent cheating (say, make the deadline BEFORE the game thread goes up to ensure early and honest entries).
“If Teixeira didn’t have an absolutely horrible April, we’d be talking about his 40 homers, 110 RBI’s, an 11 game AL East lead, and a sure MVP”
He washed that out with an absurdly good May in which he collected 42% of his homers an 38% of his rbi. He’s not the guy he was in April and he’s not the guy he was in May. But overall, he’s been the guy he’s always been and that has him in the conversation for MVP.
Nick-
But then I do not get to be GTLU Nazi!
People also like to see who has the same line up as them or whatever
“Him”, not Jim. Sorry for the typo.
Here’s who is in today’s “Guess the Line Up” so far. Submissions until 3:30
NYYROC, Upstate Kate, Ed H, Nick, Ramey, J-Dawg, Hokiehill, Andrew33 (all the same)
Uncle E
pat,
Do you know what was left out?
His point is these guys don’t compare to the guys he played against.
What does that mean?
Stats? Class? Playing the game the right way?
Jeter does all three.
And to me, he seems timeless and could fit in any era. Can you image the Sterling back in the 20’s? “And a base hit from Jetah! Oh, look at that Suzyn! The classic Jeterian shwing!”
Rice, like a lot of old-timers are resentful of the huge contracts that players get nowadays. But is that a reason to hate on Jeter? You’d need a ream of paper to list all the overpaid players since Rice’s time.
If we’re only considering playoff team best player Tex is only on par with Morales so for those saying Tex should be MVP he’s not even the best among contending team. And the fact Angel is only 2nd behind Yankee and consistenly kicking Yankee ass should count for something right =P
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Tex
117 460 73 130 33 0 31 89 66 83 2 0 .283 .381 .557 .937
Morales
111 417 66 126 30 2 27 81 34 78 1 3 .302 .350 .578 .928
and for those arguing player that improve the player the most shouldn’t that be AROD, just look at Yankee record after he returned
Erica: all the lineups would be posted in public, just like they are now. Everyone could see what everyone else posted. No honor system; it would all be in public, and people would only get credit for corrept lineups if they alerted you to their earlier post with a link (all comments to this blog have unique links to them for reference).
i mean improve the team the most
By the way, Tyler Kepner was interviewed on EEI today and one of the questions they asked him was whether he thought the Yankees had the division sewn up. He said he definitely did and mentioned that the Yankees had never had a 7 game lead and lost the division; but then he backtracked a little and said but they had never done what happened in 2004 “so I guess anything’s possible”. He finished by saying it was his feeling the Yanks would win it though.
Here’s why I feel comfortable going with history. In 2004 there are AT LEAST two people we know of on the Sux who were juicing. And Dumb and Dumber were very important parts of that team. In fact they were the Sux’s three and four hitters. And oh did they hit.
I think that as much as you can feel confident about it, you have to think that the majority of players aren’t going near anything with the testing and scrutiny. So I am comfortable thinking that history will continue to repeat itself and the team that had never blown a 7-game lead to lose the division will not do so this year either.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
As a sidenote, I am not saying that the Yankees didn’t have players who were using in 2004. I don’t know who was and who wasn’t, but I certainly believe that Clemens was. But I also know that the Yankees limped into the postseason and had pitchers down all season so I considered it a victory that they got as far as they did. The Sux having their top two players (at least) on the juice and the team swigging Jack Daniels before every game to help calm the nerves was certainly not in the playbook.
JMO, JMO, JMO.
Anyway, that’s the way that I look at it.
Current stats:
—VORP (Value over replacement player, in runs)(top 5):
Joe Mauer 72.6
Jason Bartlett 52.4(Yes, the career .699 OPS player before 2009)
Derek Jeter 49.5
Ichiro Suzuki 46.5
Michael Young 46.5
Teixeira 36.1 (15th place; hurt due to playing 1st base)
—Wins above replacement (and $ value):
Joe Mauer 6.4 $29.0 million
Ben Zobrist 5.9 $26.5 m
Derek Jeter 5.3 $24.0 m
Evan Longoria 5.3 $23.8 m
Marco Scutaro 4.8 (Yes, the career .702 OPS player before 2009) $21.4 m
Teixeira 3.9 (13th) $17.4 m
People of LoHud-
Should we attempt a GTLU tomorrow without my actual presence? I will go by group consensus
“Mauer can’t say the same thing and still his production is out of control.”
Well, he does hit in front off a perennial 30/120 guy and has in Denard Span a young player who is developing into an outstanding leadoff hitter who is getting on base at a .390 clip. Not much else there. Certainly no #2 hitter of Damon’s stature, but the cupboard’s not totally bare.
Still, Mauer’s the man for me this year….so far.
Go to the new thread- NO NEW LINE UPS HERE!
SJ44-
I have no doubt Kelleher has been positioning the Yankee infielders well. In fact, I was one of the first around here to suggest that Jeter’s improvement at shortstop was due at leat partly to better positioning, and Kelleher no doubt can take some credit for that.
But you make no argument for Tex’s fielding other than your personal opinion, so please be good enough to allow me my opinion. And coming from someone who is always calling posters you disagree with “fanboys”, your taking offense at that is hypocritical.
My feeling is that if Tex were making plays farther to his right than most first basemen, it would show up in the numbers, and yes, you would see him making more diving stops because that is how you make plays at the extremes of your range.
If he were making those plays, it would show up in his assist numbers, and his assist numbers are not remarkable. Granted the Yanks have strikeout pitchers and left handed starters, but I think his assist numbers would be higher if he were that remarkable.
Next, UZR has its issues, but if he were making plays farther to his right than the average good fielding firstbaseman due to better positioning, whatever you think of UZR it would send his UZR numbers through the roof, because it is calculated by making plays in zones, and he would be getting enormous plus numbers for making plays in zones where few first basemen do. And that doesn’t show up.
I don’t mind your disagreeing with me. But you can disagree politely.
m
I don’t. Just seen too many times people here freak out over 1/2 a quote and then when they hear the audio realize what was reported really wasn’t as bad as what was said.
Don’t have a clue where Rice was going. Jeter does everything right between the lines.
Just uncomfortable whenever ….appears in quotes. Sometimes what’s left out is left out for effect.
I only present my suggestion as a fan of the competition — not as a participant. But the people seem to enjoy it and these are important lineups to be guessing.
I think we can all agree that Rice is being pretty ridiculous about Jeter. I hope that when Rice sees his comments in print, he will also think that he is being pretty ridiculous about Jeter. Jeter’s rate stats are amazing for a shortstop. So are his counting stats. He has a shot at finishing with the most hits all time (he has more hits at this age than Rose did). He’s one four championships. He has done and said nothing materially wrong in his entire career. He is one of the most respected players in teh game and has been his entire career. I don’t know how many players from Jim Rice’s era he thinks are better or “classier” than Jeter. But as a baseball history-nut, I can say there can’t be many.
And another thing, every group of ex-ball players says the same thing: “We were better. They don’t play the game the right way. They make too much money.” It’s amazing. Look at all the great baseball history books where they interview players from the 40’s and 50’s. They all say the same thing about Rice’s generation of players that Rice is currently saying about this generation of players.
My hope is that the current generation will be less bitter because they have made way more money.
Wave,
You comment on wanting me to “disagree politely” with you.
Yet, a contrasting view to your position on this issue is met with “Yankee fan hooey”?
You don’t see the irony in that, given your request for “politeness”?
You are too wedded to the statistical analysis and when it comes to defensive effeciency, there is no consistent metric that adequately covers defensive ability.
Like I said, just ask Pete to interview Mick Kelleher and he can shed more light on why Tex is such a great first baseman.
Seems to me to be a reasonable resolution.
SJ44-
I assumed the use of the word “fanboy” was unobjectionable to you since it appears in so many of your own posts. So no, I had no idea it was impolite.
Second, you are accusing me of being a stathead, but my original observation was based on watching him play, not stats. I supported my argument with stats. But you didn’t like that either because it didn’t agree with your viewpoint. So evidently, neither watching the game nor looking at stats is good enough for you if I disagree with your position.
I’m sure Kelleher would say Tex is an excellent fielder. Tex is a good fielder, and what else would Kelleher say?
I’m going home.
There are many answers to the question of who is the AL MVP. There is only one answer: Joe Mauer.
Congratulations, Mr. Abraham.
I am a huge fan, but I would like to do a little campaigning, if possible. Mark Teixeira is going to get a lot of attention in this year’s MVP voting, but as far as I am concerned, the Yankee who has played the largest role in their beastly season so far is Derek Jeter. His improved defense, his rediscovered power and his excellent BA/OBP improvements to match his move to the leadoff spot have really set the tone for the offense. He has put pressure on the opposing teams, allowing for Damon, Teixeira and Rodriguez to frequently see better pitches than they would with a league average leadoff hitter.
The Joe Mauer debate is a fair one. He has had an amazing season. But he has missed time with injury, and he plays on a team that will not make the playoffs this season. The Yankees on the other hand look poised to finish with the best record in baseball, and have at least two very viable candidates. I don’t know about you, but the year A-Rod one the MVP while Texas was in the cellar left me with a raised eyebrow.
If you people are seriously going to consider Tex (which is BS, Mauer should win this hands down), I’d urge you to also look at Miguel Cabrerra. Higher AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS than Tex, two fewer RS, more hits, fewer strikeouts, blah, blah, blah.
But honestly, Mauer needs to win this.
MVP in baseball is the best player. In baseball you can’t help who the GM signs to play with you. Yes Mauer does have Morneau behind him, but who else does he have. Punto? Gomez, Harris, Delmon “never seen a ball he didnt like” Young? His RBI numbers would be gaudy if he had someone like Jeter getting on base in front of him. Heck Mauer’s AVG is higher then Tex’s OBP. He is batting .450 with RISP/2out. If Mauer had half the team around him, and a pitcher that could last more than 4 innings like the Yanks have, his numbers would be out of this world.
Pete, when considering an AL MVP I beleive you have to give serious consideration to ex-Yankee Bobby Abreu. Just look at what Bobby has done with the Angels this year. His overall effect on the team has been tremendous and when Vlad and Tori Hunter were out on injuries Abreu steps up and hits .380 for the month of July winning the MVP for the month. Tex and Mauer maybe flashier but not more valuable to their teams. Watching Abreu this year all I could think was “I wish he were still a Yankee”.
“and he plays on a team that will not make the playoffs this season.”
So what? Where does it mention anywhere that the MVP must be from a playoff team or even a winning team?
“The Yankees on the other hand look poised to finish with the best record in baseball,”
So what?
For all the moronic Yankee fans out there, check out the Home/Road splits of Jeter, Texeira, Damon. Their power #’s would be way down if they didn’t play half their games in Coors East.
What Mauer has done this year is a season for the ages….. Granted Tex and Jeter are great players but if you look at there career stats they are doing anything that they don’t normally do. Mauer has outperformed them all…
1st in BA (which is hard to do with Ichiro in the league)
1st in SLG (yes even ahead of Tex)
1st in OBP
1st in OPS
10th in HR
11th in RBI
Sure he missed April, but think if he did play those HR and RBI totals would be even higher.
He’s only down 6 HR and 15 RBI from Tex and he’s done that in 100 fewer AB’s…. So the fact is simple, it’s Mauer’s to win, and if he can just keep doing what he’s doing, he should win, if he doesn’t it will be a real shame to the sport.
And remember just becasue we haven’t ever seen it before, doesn’t mean it can’t happen….
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/swe.....to-go.html thats what rob neyer had to say about this i hate that guy
1. Mauer
2. Jeter
3. Texiera
4. Cabrera
I don’t care that he didn’t play for a month. Joe Mauer’s season has been insane. Not only has he hit .380 he has transformed his offensive approach and become a power hitter.
It’s the job of the GM and Coach to make the decisions. Let’s not play the ” I’m the Owner game. “