Trouble in paradise? Probably not
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Aug 22, 2009 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Based on the tenor of the questions asked after the game, a lot will be made in the papers tomorrow and on ESPN tonight about the relationship between Jorge Posada and A.J. Burnett.
Burnett looked awful today and Posada admitted after the game that they had trouble getting on the same page. But here are some facts:
Burnett was 9-3 with a 2.59 ERA and a .220 opponents batting average in his 12 starts prior to today. Posada caught 10 of those games including 7.1 scoreless innings against the Red Sox at Yankees Stadium on Aug. 7. Do those games not count?
Burnett is 0-2 with a 14.21 ERA in three starts at Fenway Park and Posada caught all three of those games. But I think that says more about the Boston lineup and the tendencies of Fenway Park than it does about the relationship between a pitcher and catcher.
But a rift between teammates — even imagined — makes for good copy. When the teammates are Yankees, even better.
By no means do I think Posada and Burnett work particularly well together because they don’t. But when asked about pitch selection, Posada put it well.
“I just make suggestions,” he said. “It’s up to the pitcher to throw the pitch he wants. He’s the guy in charge.”
Look at Burnett’s history. This is a stubborn guy who tends to blow up at times and let games get away from him. That is who he is. He kept saying after the game how good he thought his curveball was. From what I saw, the Red Sox were hammering that pitch, just like they have all season.
Burnett’s a two-pitch guy with an occasional change-up. It’s not like any catcher has a lot to pick from.
UPDATE, 8:50 p.m.: Here is what Burnett had to say:
“There were a couple of heaters (when) I felt that I should have thrown a hook. I step off and re-gather and that’s when the non-executed pitch came. (Posada) calls fine back there. It’s just a matter of me throwing what I want to throw.
“There’s no pattern there. I’ve had a great run now with Jorge. So there’s no fingers to point but at me.”
hopefully cc can win to take it back to 7 in the loss.
if the rs win it is a 2 game swing.
or lose
Strange pattern- if they don’t score first the life seems to drain from the entire team. Of course giving up runs doesn’t help either. CC gets to earn his pay and title of “ace” tomorrow!
Excellent analysis, Pete. Couldn’t agree more.
bru – 1 game swing, man
Wow!
What a mess today was.
If anybody is feeling blue about today, think of me.
I’m spending 9 hours on a bus just to see that game live.
Just leaving now. Should be home at 2:00 AM.
From Friday it was a 2 game swing. They were 7.5 out after yesterday’s game. If they win tomorrow, they would be 5.5 out.
Overall for the weekend, they would have gained 1 game but 2 games from Saturday through Monday.
Thomo August 22nd, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Strange pattern- if they don’t score first the life seems to drain from the entire team. Of course giving up runs doesn’t help either. CC gets to earn his pay and title of “ace” tomorrow!
—————-
Uh-huh, never mind this team has 40 comeback wins this season.
But the life seems to drain from them like Superman with kryptonite when they don’t score first.
Unreal.
I’m unconcerned. Turn the page.
“Strange pattern- if they don’t score first the life seems to drain from the entire team.”
The number of come from behind wins and walkoffs this year says my eyes see something yours aren’t.
How is it that Jorge and AJ don’t work well together? Pete just put the #s together, so that says it all.
I don’t see any rift at all, but if Jorge is going to get frustrated with AJ and outwardly so to the point he’s talking to the media, maybe a sit down is needed.
Also, AJ shut the Sox out the last time……….and he’s pitched very well against them before. Now he’s afraid to face them? I admit I have no clue as to why he’s struggling so badly in Fenway this year……..
But when asked about pitch selection, Posada put it well.
“I just make suggestions,” he said. “It’s up to the pitcher to throw the pitch he wants. He’s the guy in charge.”
Trisha,
There you go so blame the guy in charge for the pitches he fails to execute.
The acting like a 12-year-old YAWN crap is going to stop right now. Either act like an adult and talk about baseball like a reasonable person or get out. Insulting each other is not what this will become.
Adhere to the posting guidelines or go someplace else.
My husband has switched from cursing at the Yankees to cursing at the Giants!
I guess that means he’s turned the page.
Look at it in terms of the overall series, folks.
Started before Friday’s game 6.5 up
Will finish after tomrrow either 7.5 or 5.5 up.
A swing of one game in a 3 game series.
If CC pitches like he did last time in Fenway with an improved and rested bullpen (Coke, Hughes, Mo) I like the Yanks chances tomorrow.
Either way, winning Fri. night was huge in the overall scheme of things. RS thinking about WC, not division. By their actions they’ve basically admitted it, othewise you would’ve seen Lester, not Bad Penny, on Friday.
AJ is a 2 pitch pitcher… when one pitch isin’t working, he is dead. Especially against this team. It doesn’t help that he kept throwing an ineffective pitch over and over, but again, he has nowhere else to go.
The curve wasn’t working today and wasn’t working in any of his starts in Fenway this year… they hammer it all over the yard.
I think Pete, AJ and Jorge said it all.
You know what the irony of all this is?
AJ’s numbers with Jorge catching are actually BETTER than ANY catcher who has EVER caught him with the exception of Rod Barajas.
File that under the “strange but true” catagory for the day.
He’s just a tough guy to catch for reasons well documented.
Turn the page and move on. All you can do.
Wow. Tim Redding shutting out the Phillies thru 5.
Tim Redding? Really?
TIM REDDING???
The Mets cutting off Cleon Jones…lol
I agree that AJ would benefit from relying more on a slider, change, or cutter. Cone said as much months ago.
Dude
Chill. Where the hell was the hassle? (unless its been deleted). This crap is tame.
One thing I noticed tonight, and I blame both AJ and Po for this, was they didn’t seem to establish the fastball enough early. AJ threw quite a few curves in the first. I’m pretty sure he even started one batter in the first (though I don’t remember who) off with the curve.
AJ has a killer fastball with good movement. But he showed the lineup a lot of his curve the first time through tonight, and they adjusted to it quickly. Posada was throwing the sign for it, and AJ was throwing it. On both their heads be it.
Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s one thing that really seemed to stick out early from my perspective.
In his last start in Fenway he didn’t have a hook either… so instead, he kept throwing fastballs. Ortiz and Nick Green hammered him then.
This time, he continued to throw a hook that clearly was fooling no one and got pounded as well.
Considering he is a 2 pitch pitcher, those are his only options. Neither worked.
AJ really couldn’t consistently command his FB either.
Wow.
Does anyone consider that losing a game 14-1 gets to the players? And that in the 10 minutes or so after a game is when they’re the most vulnerable? The most raw from having just lost such a game? Does anyone consider that there might be some mutual frustration? Let it go. AJ has had success pitching to Jorge. Jorge has had success catching multiple pitchers.
Pete’s right.
And why can it just be – well, that was a cr—py game, and move on?
The Yankees are still in good shape.
Tomorrow is a game on even standing. One horrible game each. I think tomorrow will be a better game all around.
And please, don’t underestimate that the media needs to write compelling stories. And for at least several minutes after today’s game there was a write-able conflict between how AJ and Jorge saw this game.
ON another topic – I didn’t see Aceves. I read someone’s post, though, that said there might be concern. What happened with Aceves?
See, AJ blamed himself, not Jorge…….though Jorge sure was brutally honest. Wow…….
SJ and exactly what I said today is that they were not on the same page.
So there ya have it. No finger pointing. They were not on the same page.
He has shown a decent two seamer lately and his changeup isn’t bad. He should feature those pitches more in game situations.
Its so funny to me to hear him say he though he had a “good hook” today.
Its the quintessential battle between pitcher and catcher.
The pitcher believes he has a great “hook” today.
The catcher, and everybody else for that matter, sees its the pitch that he is getting hammered with yet, AJ keeps insisting on throwing it.
Therein lies the battle between pitcher and catcher.
I think AJ is a lot like Joba.
The less they think on the mound, the better off they are.
Think less AJ and you will be fine.
Pel,
Thanks for the Jorge audio, too. Just listened to it, and there was little doubt how he felt.
Oh, well. Those two need to work it out.
AJ needs to be less of a spoiled brat when things don’t go his way.
“I just make suggestions,” he said. “It’s up to the pitcher to throw the pitch he wants. He’s the guy in charge.”
That is a lie Jorge reputation with pitchers is being very stubborn. Whenever Burnett pitches bad Jorge doesn’t get any fault. Then he should not get any credit when Burnett pitches a gem.
But anyway obviously it is more Burnett’s fault but even when he pitches well they dont look very comfortable with each other out there. Thats probably why after every bad start the media asks a bunch of questions if they get along.
If they win tomorrow it’s a bonus. I aid before the series I’d be happy with one of three. I’m not changing that now.
ON another topic – I didn’t see Aceves. I read someone’s post, though, that said there might be concern. What happened with Aceves?
__
Probably two things: One, a regression to the mean. Based on his mL stats, it was not reasonable to expect that he would be as good as he was for a while. Two, he may be hurting. There have been reports of shoulder and back issues. When you haven’t made a ton of money, it’s tough to say you can’t go.
Rick, he hasn’t been dead this year with only one pitch – AJ has worked around his troubles much more often than not.
Jorge’s comment was perfect. Summed it up exactly.
As usual, the HOF catcher with 4 rings knows what the deal is.
AJ struggles are similar to Joba. There are times a pitch isn’t working and they continue to throw it. That’s when the problem comes in with Posada. He can see it isn’t working and they want to continue throwing it. So if they aren’t on the same page it isn’t nessarily on the catcher.
No need for fake controversies when a real one exists.
Why didn’t Alex let Jose use his mitt?
SJ, I agree it’s on AJ, but do you think Jorge is getting frustrated with AJ to the point that it’s going to be a problem? AJ has pitched better (despite his now bloated ERA) this year than at any other time, so yes he and Jorge do work well together. I just don’t feel comfortable with the thought that there is now going to be some sort of rift …….it sounds like Jorge has just about had it.
Move along…nothing to see here.
Thanks, Richie.
Joba and his slider=A.J and his ‘hook’. For pitchers who have electric stuff, they do seem to fall in love with their breaking ball…
It unfortunately seemed like their typical Day Fox Game after a night game. They just don’t or can’t get it up for these games. Also, the Red Sox aren’t giving up 20 runs one night and not coming out the next game on a mission.
Burnett gets into a mental funk and can’t shake it off. Jorge’s is catcher not his shrink.
I suspect tomorrow night will be a low scoring game.
Betsy
All this angst isn’t good for you. They’ll work it out.
“AJ needs to be less of a spoiled brat when things don’t go his way.”
I disagree. Quote:
“There were a couple of heaters (when) I felt that I should have thrown a hook. I step off and re-gather and that’s when the non-executed pitch came. (Posada) calls fine back there. It’s just a matter of me throwing what I want to throw.
There’s no pattern there. I’ve had a great run now with Jorge. So there’s no fingers to point but at me.”
Doesn’t sound spoiled at all.
Boston was blistering today. Aceves and Robertson got touched up, too.
And isn’t it amazing how many runs are scored between these two teams at Fenway when it’s such a large park? And conversely, how many runs are scored at NYS?
And why can it just be – well, that was a cr—py game, and move on?
*****************************************
Because there is no drama or agenda to be met by taking that approach.
I’ve been going to baseball games for almost 50 years and it seems like the game has changed during that time according to some of you. Back in the day, when a pitcher stunk up the joint it was his fault, today when that happens with certain pitchers, it’s the catchers fault now.
Again, the catcher makes pitch suggestions, but it’s the pitcher’s decision to throw what pitch and that is the simple truth.
Forget the AJ – Jorge non-issue, let’s get to the REAL story.
Jose Molina at 3B
What’s up with THAT?
This is like the Truther Alamo. But with out the valor
More often than not when he has no feel for his hook, he is going to get killed.
The decent starts he did had without it, he featured a decent two-seemer and mixed his change in. He also walked tight ropes all game. Today he just continued to throw a pitch that wasn’t working.
SJ44
I remember one game Posada said he got him to throw more two seam fastballs because one other pitch wasn’t working. I believe he pitched well in that game.
It was a bad game; they couldn’t agree today. They have another game together in 5 days. They will be fine. They have to work it out and they will.
Betsy,
From the last thread…
I’m just saying that the Yankees knew what they were paying for when they got A.J.
I hated the Burnett signing, but I’ve been, overall, pleasantly surprised with his performance this year.
However, it’s a roller coaster ride with A.J. This is who he is.
There’s not a pitcher in the league with such a fine line between being brilliant or terrible.
People who blame Burnett’s performance on Posada either haven’t followed Burnett’s pre-Yankee career or are conveniently ignoring it to try to justtify a point they know they can’t prove.
Of course, it’s the latter.
This kerfuffle reminds me of something I was wondering: when a comment gets deleted for violating the TOS, does the total post count get adjusted accordingly?
The millionth comment is coming; will that reflect a million comments of all stripes, or a million left standing?
“Jose Molina at 3B
What’s up with THAT?”
We had no more bench. Remember El Nino was sent down and we wanted to get Al and Jetes off the field.
Betsy,
That’s worry for nothing. They are both pros.
Jorge punched out El Duque on more than one occasion and they still worked together. This isn’t even close to that! lol
AJ is a tough guy to catch. You just deal with it because that’s your job.
Like Pete said, its a made up “controversy”.
That happens when you don’t have a pennant race to cover. Some members of the media decide to go the “controversy” route, even if one doesn’t exist.
Thankfully, Pete doesn’t drink from that well.
Pat, not feeling any angst…….I just don’t want there to be any bad feelings between the two. I honestly don’t think there are – both guys are emotional, which I like.
A.J. had an off day. It doesn’t really matter if his curve was any good, he couldn’t locate the fastball within the zone. He struggled to throw strikes and when he did they were in a good hitting zone.
This A.J. Posada thing is such a non-story as far as I’m concerned. As Pete aptly pointed out,
“Burnett was 9-3 with a 2.59 ERA and a .220 opponents batting average in his 12 starts prior to today. Posada caught 10 of those games”
That’s all the proof I need that those two guys work fine together. A.J. is the pitcher, he took responsibility for the outing, lets get over it.
Jorge is getting sick of taking the blame when AJ sucks.
Jorge is a team leader and a key member of our dynasty, yet gets hammered when Burnett, who has a reputation for being stubborn and prone to blowups, has a bad game.
It has to wear on him that he gets all this unwarranted criticism.
Tom: and without the finality.
Wait,
Did you listen to AJ’s audio? It’s much different from one isolated quote.
AJ is a spoiled brat. He loses it when he’s squeezed, and the last time against Oakland? Jorge wanted fastball? He threw 4 of them all out of the zone. Today? AJ lost it today, too.
I love AJ, but I’m not blind.
Doreen
Happy anniversary and congrats.
We hit 37 in July.
Remember when people were saying AJ was our ace and not CC?
lol
Getting frustrated and being a spoiled brat are entirely different.
Molina was really handicapped at 3rd with A-Rod’s glove-lol.
I did not like AJ making such a public show of frustration on national tv. He needs to be more professional, but hey, it happens.
AJ made a few mistakes today and he paid for them. Part of the game.
The Yankees hit some rockets off of Tazawa, but several of then were right at people. Once again, the value of throwing strikes on display. Good things happen when you keep the free passes to a minimum.
Time to move on. Let’s hope for a close game tomorrow night.
A 5 1/2 game lead on Monday would not be the end of the world.
“By no means do I think Posada and Burnett work particularly well together because they don’t.”
And recognizing that will go a long way in preparing for all eventualities. No, they do not work particularly well together. It is still my contention that Girardi needs to do some work to make it better. He’s there to manage. Apparently they could use someone to act as a buffer who could help them get on the same page.
My opinion.
SJ, good, thanks! I really didn’t think so anyway – last time AJ pied someone, Jorge was laughing and sort of hugged him afterward. As I said before, they are just emotional sorts……….I’m glad it won’t come down to a wrestling match between them, lol.
The sad thing is, the media is going to make a big stinking deal out of this……..AJ just isn’t pitching that well right now, whatiwth his Chicago, Toronto (eh start) and now this. Notice how when he was on, there were no problems or miscommunications with Jorge……..AJ just needs to get back on the beam.
m,
That was what AJ’s reputation was and he is living up to it
A tiger does not change his stripes.
Funny how the fans turn on a borderline HOF who actually won with us just to make AJ look good..
SJ44 -
Thankfully, indeed!
37th anniversary? Thanks for making me feel young.
meant to say “without A-Rod’s glove”
I would guess Jorge can blow off the “controversy” when it comes from the press. It would probably be a different story if it was coming from his teammates.
None of this is new to him. He’s played his entire career on the Yankees. When is there not some controversy – real or imagined?
m-Not having control and being a spoiled brat are a bit different, though.
A.J. does bad when squeezed. So do a lot of pitchers.
A.J. has his faults, but being a spoiled brat never occurred to me as one of them.
“However, it’s a roller coaster ride with A.J. This is who he is.
There’s not a pitcher in the league with such a fine line between being brilliant or terrible.”
Best description of AJ I have heard. Spot on.
m,
I agree… that AJ audio is different than the isolated quotes.
You make an interesting point trisha. Yet sdo they really need anybody to help? As SJ pointed out, A.J. ERA when caught by Posada is actually the lowest among all the ctachers A.J. has used. Do they really need to fix something that doesn’t really seem broken?
AJ definitely has no gray area – really good or really bad, really funny or really mad ……
How can you ever trust this guy in a playoff game?
Even Joba has better damage control ability than him.
Richie
August 22nd, 2009 at 9:13 pm
37th anniversary? Thanks for making me feel young.
———————————————-
Thanks for making me feel old.
Yanks now 15-5 in August. My August 1 prediction of a 19-9 month is still looking pretty good.
I predict that the 2 greatest words ever uttered in a pennant race will commence sometime next week: Magic Number.
He’s not a spoiled brat at all. Nobody who has played with the guy would describe him that way.
Greg Zaun almost had a nervous breakdown catching AJ. Seriously…..it was so bad, he actually asked off of catching him because he couldn’t handle it and he and AJ are really good friends! lol
He’s a pitcher and they are different breed.
Randy and Pat M know what I am talking about! lol
AJ has his quirks. Just as Moose, RJ, Andy, Clemens, El Duque, Boomer and just about every other pitcher on the planet.
That’s why you can’t handle every pitcher the same was as a catcher.
About the only two pitchers I’ve ever met who are actually “normal” are Coney and CC.
They are the exception to the rule.
The rest of them are all quirky.
I have never seen a pitcher as talented as AJ have so many blowups where he just can’t stop the bleeding.
How many ‘clean’ games as this guy had? Every start seems to be a tight rope or he gets killed. Very few effortless games for a guy with his stuff..
Rconn, thanks for explaining.
When a pitcher pitches well, he gets the credit; when he doesn’t, he gets the blame. That’s how it is and how it should be….
AJ’s terrible outing doesn’t diminish what he’s done this year…..it just is what it is. He may not act like it on the mound, but I think he’s more intropsective than people think; he is no dummy…….I followed him especially in ST and so I’m basing this on what I’ve heard from him and heard about him. He’ll get it together again, I”ve no doubt about it.
Betsy,
Don’t worry, I’m not turning on AJ!
Wait,
Please don’t misinterpret what I said about AJ. It wasn’t meant to be derogatory in any sense of the word. Let’s call it a term of endearment. A guy with his talent? Losing it when things don’t go his way? Spoiled brat. I’m still a big AJ fan, and I hope that the catching staff can deal with such a difficult pitcher. :sarcasm:
How about the Yankees being shut down by a Japanese pitcher who only pitched for the Industrial League back in Japan?
If there’s really a problem between Jorge and AJ rather than a problem between AJ’s ears, then they can ride in different cars at the parade.
and I’m sure despite this comment by AJ some reporters will try and spin it to trouble in Yankee land. Despite the fact that we have the best record in BB and have a 6 1/2 game lead in the division.
Darrin-You’re wrong about one prediction. The words magic number have already been uttered.
MaineYankee -
Thanks, and congrats to you!
The bottom line here is not a single one of us wants the Yankees to ever lose, AND we seem to need to assign blame.
AJ and Posada have been on “the same page before.” It is not an impossibility. I think it was a bad freakin’ day. Maybe one of them had a fight with their wife this morning. Who knows? I don’t think Girardi is oblivious if there is a real problem. They’ve apparently worked this out before, they’ll get together again and figure it out.
Although, I have to say, it sounds like there’s not much to figure out.
And perhaps with a team not the Red Sox AT FENWAY, AJ’s game doesn’t turn out quite so bad.
“Darrin August 22nd, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Yanks now 15-5 in August. My August 1 prediction of a 19-9 month is still looking pretty good.
I predict that the 2 greatest words ever uttered in a pennant race will commence sometime next week: Magic Number.”
Per MLB.com, Boston E# – 34
AJ had a 4.43 ERA in August last year.
His strong 2nd half numbers were inflated heavily by a great September
Sardine: Sorry – I meant that the official countdown will commence.
Manso-Cool.
Looking for that great September.
SJ, I never got the impression AJ was a spoiled brat. In fact, I see him as a very mature guy off the mound. On it? He’s an emotional guy who has done as well as he can to control himself……..This is his nature, has been since he was kid (I’ve read bios of him online). I mean, we’re talking about someone who threw a ball through the rear window of a van to get at Billy the Marlin, lol. It’s hard for some guys to accept failure – I know he’s reading sports psychologist Harvey Dorfman, who espouses that you let go of things you can’t control. AJ is making terrific progress in that regard – he’s not the same guy he was in Florida or Toronto (where his rep even as late as last year wasn’t so hot), but he’s simply not going to be perfect.
I wouldn’t say he is a “spoiled brat”
I think headcase is a better team for AJ… one label he has had with him his whole career and now we can see why. So much talent, such mediocre results.
But we knew what we were getting when we signed him.
Wait, it was definitely broken today in terms of their getting together. Much better if they can be on the same page all the time, the way most pitchers and catchers at least seem to be.
M, lol – I know that!
m-Fair enough.
I was not in favor of signing A.J. because of all the injuries. Still, knock on wood, if he remains healthy he’s a legitimate number two.
AJ is just high strung.
His personality may be better than in Toronto/Florida but his numbers are worse in every category.
Yes I have to admit that today AJ was definitely number two.
Tom Coughlin’s head is going to explode.
Only funny because it’s pre-season
trisha-The thing is, A.J. actually seems to be on a better page with Jorge than with any other catcher.
I don’t think he’ll ever stop being difficult to catch, so if Posada is catching him to a low ERA, for whatever that’s worth, I doubt Joe G could make a discernable difference.
AJ had a 4.07 ERA last year
Did you think you were getting Doc Halladay? This is what AJ Burnett is. Million dollar arm and can never pitch up to his stuff.
He’ll have his stretches where he dominates but doesn’t dominate consistently like a guy with his stuff should.
I’m sure they look a tons of video, but what is the difference this year with AJ pitching at Fenway compared to the past. Is it pitch selection, execution? It is a problem that needs to be fixed for next year.
John,
Thanks for that. As much as people would like to convince us otherwise, there was something there. Born out of frustation for sure, but the fact remains it was there.
Devin,
Headcase! But our headcase.
“AJ and Posada have been on “the same page before.” It is not an impossibility. I think it was a bad freakin’ day. Maybe one of them had a fight with their wife this morning. Who knows? I don’t think Girardi is oblivious if there is a real problem. They’ve apparently worked this out before, they’ll get together again and figure it out.”
Good point.
Preseason means absolutely nothing at all.
The Lions went 40. Look where that got them.
I look at preseason the same way I look at ST, a way to watch the game w/o caring about the outcome.
Trisha
I’ve seen many games where Veritek has had to make multiple trips to the mound because of communication problems. I mean alot more than normal.
When has there been controversy with Jorge? What a load, what did the team do last year without Jorge? Nothing, they didn’t make the playoffs. What did they do every single year he was catcher or back up? Make the playoffs!
“AJ had a 4.07 ERA last year
Did you think you were getting Doc Halladay? This is what AJ Burnett is. Million dollar arm and can never pitch up to his stuff.
He’ll have his stretches where he dominates but doesn’t dominate consistently like a guy with his stuff should.”
…And it’s unfair to expect him to. A.J., right now, is meeting my expectations. He’s not exceeding them or disappointing them.
Dock, AJ has not had many blowups this year……maybe he does walk the fine line, but he ends up pitching very well anyway. If we kill him for performances like this, which is fair, then we have to credit him for the times he works out of trouble……..which is most of the time.
That is what separates CC from AJ.
That’s why CC has a CY Young and is regarded as one of the top pitchers in the league.
In 5 games in August, AJ’s ERA is almost 5.
Jake, lol……4.07 this year and that was because of this one game. If you don’t think AJ has pitched very well this year, I don’t know what to say
About CC…I’m glad that his strikeout rate is improving so drastically. The lack of strikeouts was worrying me a lot.
AJ had a poor game, no need to take it any further then that. He stepped up and accepted responsibility for his performance, time to move on and away from all the second guessing and finger pointing.
AJ just doesn’t have effortless games like CC does. CC has a stressful win every now and then, AJ has a clean one every now and then.
Everything is a grind/battle for him. It shouldn’t be. His stuff is too good for that.
I loved Jorge’s quote.
Cut and dry, to the point. Didn’t sugarcoat it, didn’t work around it.
That’s why he is a leader in the clubhouse.
Betsy
August 22nd, 2009 at 9:27 pm
Dock, AJ has not had many blowups this year……maybe he does walk the fine line, but he ends up pitching very well anyway. If we kill him for performances like this, which is fair, then we have to credit him for the times he works out of trouble……..which is most of the time.
————————————————
What is frustating is that he’s to good a pitcher to have games like this.
Betsy-He said 4.07 ERA last year.
This year his ERA is 3.69. Apparently better than you think.
Burnett is like Dice-K was… walk the ballpark but find ways to get out of it.
If we say Dice-K was lucky last year, what do we say about AJ this year? It’s not like this guy is mowing down lineups night after night. He is battling.
pitchers and catchers argue sometimes, and sometimes good teams and good pitchers have bad games. this is really not that shocking to me.
however, i’m not such a big fan of that quote by posada, who usually provides us with excellent quotes. everyone else accepted accountability except him who said “blame aj, not me.” probably he is defensive because the yankee media folks are such dooshbags. for some reason they think the yankee universe will blow up if they don’t stage a panic attack after every loss. like, when are we going to get rid of some of these losers already?
Dice-K is not as good as Burnett. His stuff isn’t as good.
Wait, I think his ERA blew up with this game………….unfortunately. At this point, forget the ERA – he’s pitched much better than that. All that matters is that he right the ship
Betsy, Baseball Reference said his ERA is 3.69. Even if it wasn’t updated I highly doubt it was over four.
Who knows what’s going on? Just like what’s going on with Joba.
It’s probably as easy as something like pitching is a lot more difficult than any of us can imagine.
Statistically, AJ is having one of the worst year’s of his career (if you only factor in seasons that he has thrown atleast 100 IP).
He is on pace this year to set career highs in almost every category (WHIP, lowest K/9, highest BB/9) and he’ll probably finish 2nd to worst in ERA and BAA.
So it’s not like this is AJ at his best. He is working around trouble but he clearly is not as dominant as he was in previous years.
“Betsy, Baseball Reference said his ERA is 3.69. Even if it wasn’t updated I highly doubt it was over four.”
check it tomorrow and it will read 4.08
AJ’s ERA is 4.08 after this game.
Yahoo calculates it immediately in the Box Score.
Burnett had a bad game. He is a very good number 2 starter. He is not an ace which is why some fans get disappointed with him. He goes on a roll and has 4-5 really good starts and then has a really bad start like he had today. The yanks know thats why they paid Sabathia to be the ace. Burnett has pitched very well this year I dont know how yankee fans can be too upset with him.
Last year he won 18 games and had a 4 era. That is a very good he is pitching in the al east not the nl.
Just saw a headline saying Burress hired a consultant to prep him for life behind bars. Why would someone as gangsta as Plaxico need help with that? Just kidding. It’s a real shame that he has to spend 2 years in jail.
I heard that there was a deal in place for a much shorter sentence, but when Burress opened his mouth telling people that he wasn’t going to be in for very long the deal was off.
It is over four?
LOL, the game was worse than I thought.
And I’m bad at math.
Frank,
AJ might also have a career high in hits per 9. If not then maybe 2nd worst.
I agree with JFK.
As I said before, A.J. has neither disappointed or exceeded my expectations, he has met them.
Jorge punched out El Duque on more than one occasion and they still worked together. This isn’t even close to that! lol
======
Yeah, and both Jorge and El Duque said they fight “like brothers.”
Jorge said, hands down, El Duque is the greatest pitcher he’s ever caught.
When management went to him and asked if we should get him back, he didn’t hesitate. “Get him here,” Posada said.
And I believe Posada has told Joba: “Stop embarrassing yourself. Throw your FB.”
Lol. You go, Jorgie!
JFK,
The expectations for this guy were way out of whack. People wanted him to be some kind of ace. People even recently were saying he is better than CC.
He’s not an ace, but he’s still pretty good.
Frank, AJ has still pitched very well regardless of the statistics…..I’m going with what I see, not just cold hard stats. To say he’s been worse this year than in most any other year of his career is silly, I’m sorry.
He was very, very good before this start, as Betsy pointed out.
Frankly, AJ has more then met my expectations…….I don’t think anyone thought he was an ace (he has the talent to be one, but whatever). In fact, most on here thought he was a lousy pitcher………Very few people at the time of the signing were claiming AJ was #2 or a #3 or whatever – they just didn’t think well of him at all. I honestly don’t see how anyone can be unhappy with what AJ has given us this year. At 32, he’s still a better pitcher than he was when he was younger……
Betsy – If you haven’t watched him in previous years, than how can you dispute that claim?
I had no expectations for AJ.
But he’s done the following:
1. Stayed healthy (knock on wood)
2. Eaten innings (but he’s still not as full as CC)
3. Pitched very well at times
4. Kept his team in games in all but a handful of games
5. Adjusted well to New York
6. Has been a great clubhouse presence
AJ has not given up a lot of hits this season, not even close – 16 less than IP this year. Hey, he’s had a few really bad starts that have skewed his stats. It pays to watch the games
Dispute what claime, Skye?
Betsy,
Are you saying he was WORSE in Florida and Toronto than he is here? I really don’t think that is accurate. More injury prone maybe, but not a worse pitcher by any stretch.
M, yep……..I really couldn’t be happier with AJ.
Betsy – For an AJ fan girl you really don’t seem to know much about AJ before he joined the Yankees… I would have thought have read up on that stuff…..
I expected A.J. to be a solid number two. He’s been that.
I live in So Fla. trust me, burnett looked better here than he does now. he got hurt much more but he was more dominant here.
Clint, wasn’t AJ’s rep in Florida and Toronto that he couldn’t handle adversity? That he was great when he was great, but terrible otherwise? That is the complete opposite of what I am seeing here. Oddly, AJ hasn’t had that many dominant games this year, but he still has pitched very, very well. He’s had a few blowup games, but overall he’s done well in minimizing damage and keeping his team in the game. That’s what I mean when I say that AJ is a better pitcher now……up until maybe last year, he was a thrower. Also, don’t compare his stats in the NL to those in the AL East….
AJ is also on pace for his lowest innings pitched per 9 innings of his career in years he qualified
Stop over-analyzing today’s game or even Burnett’s career.
This isn’t that big of a deal. The last time Burnett got hammered at Fenway, he turned things around and went on a tear for two months.
He’s capable of doing that again. Let’s hope he does.
Go get ‘em tomorrow and win the series.
And kudos to Cashman & the Yankees for snapping up both CC and AJ. I think he read the market correctly as the best FA pitcher is Lackey, who is likely staying in LA. And as we saw before the trade deadline, the cost in prospects of an AL team acquiring starting pitching is off the charts stupid ridiculous.
Who will be in Boston’s rotation next season? That’ll be a storyline to keep an eye on, as they desperately shot for the moon with Halladay & Hernandez.
I wouldn’t count his Florida stats that heavily considering they were in the NL
That being said, his numbers are still down compared to what he averaged in Toronto during the 3 years, in every category…
Marble, I never said he was a bad pitcher in Florida and Toronto…..I explained what I meant, but it’s been a long day and I don’t know how to explain it further. What did you see in Toronto and Florida that you aren’t seeing now?
BTW, anybody else shocked that CC and Beckett have tied for the league lead in wins?
That one kind of surprised me.
GF, you’re right…….I want to go root on the Bears now, lol. We’re all entitled to our opinion anyway – I respect everyone for having their own. Hopefully better luck next time…..
Giants getting shelled, not that it matters…
m, I see
Beckett (in a walk year?)
Lester
Wakefield (at 43)
Dice K (who knows what you’re getting there)
Laptop boy (another ?)
Bowden
Tazawa
And the bigger problem is the offense….
Wait, I was eager to see how the Bears did against the Giants, esp. when the starters were in……..and they did great. The Giants are a top, top team, so despite the Yankee game today, it hasn’t been all bad for me, lol
Jim Pir,
you are a fool if you think that I made up my son’s autism diagnosis. I have no reason to do so.My son was diagnosed at age 4 with Pervasive Developmental Disorder NOS.He is 14 years old. As a matter of fact today my son had a special olympics soft ball tournament and played three games. GMPI was hosting a barbecue for all the athletes and their families. My son had two hits a double and a single. All the coaches love him because he plays hard and never misses practice even when he is sick. Every day he goes outside in our yard and plays baseball with his friend even when its hot. When he watches games on TV he can recognize the pitch the catcher is putting. By the way I hate arrogant people. I cannnot stand people who act like clowns when they win. This is why i like players like Jeter and Rivera and not Joba or Arod or Cano or Cabrera.
Plax will probably be in prison for less than 18 months but more than one.
Yes well I give zero signifigance to preseason games. The Detroit Lions went 4-0 in the preseason last year, look where that got them?
L,
I think Tazawa will fare better than Bowden.
After a rough start, he’s settled in quite well. And he’s not nearly as WHIP happy as Dice-K.
But you’re right, there’s some “depth” there. But the Sox won’t make the same mistake twice.
The last time they were pitching short and missed the playoffs, they spent big time $$ and got Dice-K as they cruised their way to another WS.
They’ve got to go out and get pitching. I’d bank on it.
Since when does A-Rod act like a clown when he wins?
I understand Joba and Cano and Melky (don’t they do the body bumpa after each win?) even if I disagree with them, but A-Rod doesn’t really go crazy celebrating when they win.
“Cal Bears
August 22nd, 2009 at 9:54 pm
AJ is also on pace for his lowest innings pitched per 9 innings of his career in years he qualified”
clever
There have been plenty of games this year where Burnett didn’t have his best stuff and still battled and pitched well which was always the knock on him. The one against Minnesota comes to mind. Burnett matured a lot from his marlin days. Also the 15 inning game he pitched against Beckett at the stadium was a huge game for him. It was a postseason atmosphere and Burnett had a lot of pressure on him to pitch well in that game after two horrible outings against the sox.
The one thing alarming with Burnett like people mentioned is his walks are up and his strikeouts are down. Maybe he is trying to pitch to contact more? But he doesn’t walk this many hitters like he is doing this season.
I’m not sold on Tazawa at all yet – balls hit hard right at people.
RS in a bind – no premier FA pitchers, will need to trade.
But it seems their “vaunted” farm system has been exposed as overrated – what are their chips?
RS Nation of Idiots know this – that’s why they’re going crazy vs. the front office now – they’ve been sold a bill of goods.
They’re also hoping Bard can replace Papelbon, and that may not happen if they feel they can’t trust him to take over.
In other words, the RS are in a bind
If he has a start like this in October… god help him…
I’m impressed with Buchholz so far. I think he’s going to have a good career.
“It seemed like he was shaking me off” a lot, catcher Jorge Posada said. “I asked for a certain pitch and he threw another one. It’s frustrating.”
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....nd-Yankees
Safe to come in here?
Tough game to sit through last night. Yanks looked great.
One observation that stood out is that Damon lookes like he is in the best shape he has been in since 2003. He looks like he is in great condition. Obviously he left after fouling the ball off but pre-game he looked lean and ready to go in front of my seats. His results this year are no fluke. He is playing for another contract.
Lastly, these teams (players) get along well. Just watch BP from my seats and see how many chat and seek each other out for conversation.
The hatred is for some of the fans I guess, not the players.
-dennis
I’m with SJ on Buchholz, pitching “backwards” eventually will catch up with him. He needs to develop movement on his FB or he’ll only be good vs. poor, free swinging teams.
Still, the guy went to toe to toe with three of the best pitchers in the league and didn’t flinch. That impressed me.
Wait,
I agree, The Sox needed a big performance from him that day and he delivered. Overall he has done very well for them. Unfortunately, they were facing CC and they had no chance that day. He was so nasty.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....nd-Yankees
Ouch, Jorge…..
“It seemed like he was shaking me off” a lot, catcher Jorge Posada said. “I asked for a certain pitch and he threw another one. It’s frustrating.”
** I don’t think this is a big deal, but Jorge is giving the media meat for their stories.
Let AJ get it out of his system now. 14-1 is the same as 2-1.
This is only the second time since the ASB that the team was out of the game. Not all that bad.
They won the one game they had to. I’m not worried. Still up 6.5 with 39 to play?
CC can beat Beckett, who looked a bit tired against the Jays. If he doesn’t, still up 5.5.
I’d take 2 of 3 any day.
I wanted to take one of three from Boston and they’ve done that, so I considered any wins that they might have gotten today or tomorrow a bonus.
Five and a half up is still very much in the driver’s seat.
One thing about the quotes, though…………Jorge has never been able to hold his emotions in check. That’s him – I’m sure it’s nothing personal. I still don’t like them.
Beckett is awfully tough to beat. He is 8-0 with a 2.68 ERA at home this year. Sunday night ESPN… he will step it up.
Hope CC can match 0s with him. I have no doubt CC will pitch well, but well might not be enough if Beckett is on his game.
“It seemed like he was shaking me off” a lot, catcher Jorge Posada said. “I asked for a certain pitch and he threw another one. It’s frustrating.”
———————-
That quote right there shows you Posada gets very frustrated when pitchers shake him off. Bottom line is Girardi and coaches need to step in. When things go well they are fine. But when things start going bad they start fighting with each other during the game. You’ve seen it with different starting pitchers that is not a good sign and you hope that wont happen during a playoff game.
Jorge didn’t become the emotional leader of the team because he is reserved and politically correct.
Someone on this team needs to tell it as it is. Love the Jorge.
Wait, I thought Posada said this, “I just make suggestions,” he said. “It’s up to the pitcher to throw the pitch he wants. He’s the guy in charge.”
Jorge for President.
Jorge is the best.
Note to the pitchers – Win a ring before you complain about him.
“It seemed like he was shaking me off” a lot, catcher Jorge Posada said. “I asked for a certain pitch and he threw another one. It’s frustrating.”
That sounds more like Burnett was throwing a different pitch than what they agreed on. Beside the shaking off bit, it seems he is saying they were crossed up on which pitch was coming.
Seems to me that would be frustrating.
Um, A.J. HAS won a ring.
Not saying that gives him the right to complain about Jorge, but I did want to point that out.
Atleast CC has no issues… he just goes out there and dominates
Wait,
No he doesn’t, he had Tommy John surgery that year.
Maybe AJ just needs a savage beating.
Zolio-He didn’t pitch at all that year? I’m almost sure he did, though I could be wrong.
AJ clearly had no hook in this game, yet insisted on throwing it.
We saw it, the broadcasters saw it, Posada saw it… yet he continued to throw it despite Jorge telling him not to.
So he shook off Posada numerous times to throw a pitch that wasn’t working for him all day and the Sox hitters were pounding? That’s smart.
“Um, A.J. HAS won a ring”
Yet the next postseason batter he reties will be his first.
He was a complete non-contributor to the ‘03 Fish.
AJ has a ring. Neither here nor there, though, moving on. AJ said selection. Jorge said execution. I’m sure they’ll be on the same page next time.
You are correct, Zolio. He missed all of 2003 with surgery except four starts.
My bad.
He made his first 4 starts of the season, then got the surgery and was out for the rest of that year.
“Wait, I thought Posada said this, “I just make suggestions,” he said. “It’s up to the pitcher to throw the pitch he wants. He’s the guy in charge.”
Very true.
————————————————————–
AJ should have said, “I stunk.” That would have summed it up.
He had a bad game. Forget it and move on.
Jeremy Shockey has a ring too, technically…
On most days AJ can be a two pitch pitcher and dominate.
And on other days – days like today that reliance on two pitches hurts him a great deal.
AJ curve ball was poor early on – it was actually loose and didn’t have that dominant downward action it does when it’s right.
His fastball command was also off.
Pitchers are going to have games like this. It’s inevitable.
And when they do they need to do two things: 1. Realize there is a problem and be honest about it with themselves; 2. Go to plan B.
But when you stick to throwing 2 pitches there really is no plan B, especially if you think one of your two pitches is working when it’s really not.
Today was a game where AJ basically needed to turn into a different pitcher – and he’s capable of doing that. He should have gone to his two seamer and tried to get quick outs on the ground complemented by his change up.
Not a big deal. Bad game. But in the long run I hope these games are going to be learning experiences for AJ.
He said he came to NY to pitch for a championship.
He’s going to need to fully realize what that means before it’s going to happen.
Games like this, will hopefully, be learning experiences for him in the post season.
He’ll need to be more flexible and keep his emotions in check better.
I am concerned that he’s working himself up too much before some starts and taking himself out of games. He cannot do that in a playoff game. And that’s an area he has no experience in. He can’t get too high strung in the post season.
Although technically I AM right, lol. They gave the man his ring.
Most people don’t know that Nolan Ryan has a ring with the 86′ Mets.
That’s neither here nor there, but I found it interesting.
It seems some fans expect to have a CC Sabathia at every spot in the rotation. That is never going to happen. Every pitcher is capable of having their bad outings.
In fact, I think we are very lucky to have a guy like AJ as our number 2 starter. With the season he has had thus far, he could be a number 1 on a fair amount of teams. Those doubting what he can do in the playoffs really aren’t giving someone who has stepped up when the Yankees needed it much of a chance (1st start of the year in Balt, 2nd start in Tampa, matching Beckett in the stadium and I’m sure there are more).
Seriously, Burnett has been a VERY good pitcher this year. Better than most of y’all thought he would be. Those that are bashing him and calling him a headcase, a bust, a choker after this game are just looking for a reason to attack someone they don’t want to like.
IMO.
AJ thought his curve was working. That is the trouble. His fastball also didn’t move like it does when he is on. I don’t think he was finishing his pitches.
AJ is his own worse critic, except he can’t recognize which pitches are not working. He doesn’t hide from the blame, but you would think that the coach would pick up which pitch isn’t working well and talk to him about it. That might help him realize it as well.
Burnett did say he wants to actually pitch in the world series and he has the best shot with to do that with the yankees. He said once they win a ring in new york he will give away the ring he has with the marlins.
CB – Agree 100%. Which is why I worry about him in the postseason.
Sorry, I meant 69′ Mets, not 86′ Mets. My bad again.
It’s funny how he said he thought his hook was working today.
Yeah, working for the Sox hitters…….
I think its because he got a couple of strike outs with his hook, he then goes Pollyanna on how it was through the rest of the game.
Was Jorge calling for the gyro???
“On most days AJ can be a two pitch pitcher and dominate.”
More like SOME days.
“But in the long run I hope these games are going to be learning experiences for AJ.”
Respectfully, he’s been doing this for a decade plus of major league baseball. What exactly do we expect him to learn now? Further, anything in that postgame conversation that suggested he’s learned anything?
“Respectfully, he’s been doing this for a decade plus of major league baseball. What exactly do we expect him to learn now? Further, anything in that postgame conversation that suggested he’s learned anything?”
Sadly, I think you are right. So far, the only thing he has done is stay healthy. He has not become a “pitcher” like he said. Where were the 2 seemers today? change-ups? He insisted on throwing an ineffective curve.
Burnett had a 3.69 era coming into todays game. He has been pitching very well. He had been pitching better than Sabathia up until Sabathia last couple of dominant starts. He had a bad game today people are overreacting a little too much. Every pitcher has bad starts during the season.
What did you expect? He’s giving me exactly what I expected from him, a very solid number two.
^^^^
EXACTLY!
People say Posada is stubborn… it sounds like AJ is the stubborn one. Burnett’s best pitch is getting tattooed and not fooling anyone yet he continues to shake off his catcher just to throw it.
It’s kind of like writing an essay. You may not see flaws in it, but if you let someone else read it, they might. Same thing here. AJ might think his hook is good (if he really did, he is delusional), but his catcher didn’t and wanted to mix it up and AJ refused.
“More like SOME days.”
Not this year. This year it’s been most days. And if you look at the distribution of his performances you’d understand that.
He’s been very good this year even with the clunkers thrown in.
Sure he’s been doing this for a decade but the idea that he is the same pitcher now that he was a decade ago isn’t accurate at all.
People who knock AJ often make it out as if he’s the same pitcher as he was on the Marlins. He’s not.
AJ isn’t going to be the ideal pitcher or even a well rounded one.
But that doesn’t mean he’s not going to learn how to do a better job of minimizing the damage or at least making these meltdowns occur more infrequently.
Over the past two years that’s something he’s done well – he still melts down on the mound but far less often than he did.
He’s 32 but he’s still getting better – he’s unlikely to fulfill his physical “potential” but he’s getting better.
Before he signed people dismissed the year he had last year as a product of his impending free agency.
He’s been better this year than he was last.
found a great post on zell’s site:
http://zellspinstripeblog.com/.....sez-story/
“He’s been better this year than he was last.”
Based on what? Higher WHIP? Lower K/9? Worse K/BB ratio?
He’s made 25 starts, 10 of which would arguably satisfy the definition of dominating (I’m using 7 IP, 3 or fewer ER as dominating). He’s been good, I’m not arguing that, but he’s been nothing close to ace-level and not much about him has changed over the past 5+ years.
I think what frustrates fans about AJ is that when he is on he may have the best stuff in MLB.
162 games. Grind. Try to win 95, make the playoffs and see what happens. Yanks could win 100+.
No BCS. No style points. No coaches pole.
People tend to give too much to the every day. Heck, the Sox have the 5th best record in MLB and folks are saying they are mess. It is laughable.
It is not Lambeau Field for a 162. IMO.
-dennis
The guy throws 2 freakin pitches!!!
how tough can be to catch? if the curve isin’t working go to the fastball, if thr fastball isin’t working, go to the curve!!!
why is this so difficult?
“He’s been good, I’m not arguing that, but he’s been nothing close to ace-level and not much about him has changed over the past 5+ years.”
Well that’s where you’ve really lost sight of reality.
Ace level?
Sure if that’s you’re criteria then AJ is going to be a disappointment. You’ve established criteria through which he’s set up for an interpretation of failure.
He’s not an ace. And you know what? He wasn’t brought here to be one.
He’s fine as a #2 starter.
And the reason why you’re not seeing why he has been better this year than last year is because you are only considering aggregate mean statistics.
Look at the distribution of his performances.
Last year AJ was two pitchers – the guy who threw in the first 3/5ths of the season and the guy threw the last 2/5ths (that’s roughly the distribution).
First part of last year he was bad. His last 14 starts or so he was brilliant – arguably the best pitcher in the AL.
But the brilliance in the second half didn’t really contribute or fully make up for he problems in the first part of the season.
And AJ was killed for that distribution of performances because his run of brilliance was dismissed as him pitching “big” when all of the pressure was off.
He’s been better this year because he’s been much more consistent.
He had a very bad stretch to start the season but he turned it around much, much earlier than he did last year. He was very good the for most of the first half of the season.
Dismissing 10 dominant starts out of 25 is ridiculous.
You’re setting the bar at the mystical “ace” level and saying that he’s not attaining a status that he was never going to due to inconsistency.
AJ’s mean statistics don’t tell the full story of who he is as a pitcher because those mean statistics are hevaily skewed by outlier performances.
“162 games. Grind. Try to win 95, make the playoffs and see what happens. Yanks could win 100+.
No BCS. No style points. No coaches pole.
People tend to give too much to the every day. Heck, the Sox have the 5th best record in MLB and folks are saying they are mess. It is laughable.
It is not Lambeau Field for a 162. IMO.”
dead on..
people get so caught up in each individual game as if it determines what happens the rest of the season…
if it did, teams would win every game because they won the first game or lose every one because they lost the first one.
yanks accomplished what they had to this weekend…they did not get swept and they still can win the series..
this is a VERY GOOD team whether trolls say otherwise…you cant have the best record in the game and not be a good team.
Is Tazawa, Dice K 2.0?
A pitcher who gives up loud outs, gets men on base and wiggles out of jams?
Can a staff afford to have 2 starting pitchers who fit that mold?
CB:
He’s being paid as an ace level starter.
And his stats are not skewed by outlier performances. Fact is, with the number of batters he puts on base, he’s fortunate to have the the wins and ERA he has.
I do not dismiss his dominating starts. Lot of pitchers have 25 starts and a lot less than 10 that could be called dominating.
I don’t mean to be killing the guy. He’s pitched 6 full or better in 20 of his 25 starts. That’s outstanding. But he still ranks among the league leaders in not getting the most of his talent.
Oh, boy.
Reality Check August 22nd, 2009 at 11:22 pm
He’s being paid as an ace level starter.
—————-
The guy being paid to be their #1 guy is Sabathia.
Burnett makes half of what Sabathia makes.
How I’d love to have a healthy Wang in the rotation
If AJ would of given up only two runs the yanks would of still lost. the bigger dissapointment to me was the fact that a 22 rookie that doesnt have good stuff shut the offense down a day after they put up twenty
“Burnett makes half of what Sabathia makes.”
Sure, insomuch as $16.5M is half of $23M.
Need to sign John Lackey this winter
I’m sick of this team always having holes in the rotation and getting injuries. Andy should not be your #3 starter. Joba is hit or miss everytime he takes the mound.
I want a true 3-man rotation that can dominate teams and give us insurance if someone like AJ slacks off in October.
Nobody is beating a 3 man rotation of CC-Lackey-AJ
Get it done Cashman, get us the dream rotation.
If AJ’s being paid ace level starter money, then what’s CC being paid? Something’s gotta give in your argument there. Unless you’d care to back off from your stance.
dennis, I think Rick Pitino would like to hear more about this coaches pole you speak of.
All I know is $80M (Burnett) is half of $160M (Sabathia).
Stop overanalyzing everything and you may learn something about this game. Today’s result is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.
People just tend to lose their minds because it happened against the hated Red Sox.
Burnett has had a couple of rough outings here and there but he’s been great for most of the season. Considering his history, I’m happy with what they’ve gotten from him this season, especially since he has taken the ball every five days.
It’s not a big deal. Get over it.
“He’s being paid as an ace level starter. ”
This is really what is gets down to.
And that’s just a ridiculous criteria. It’s just silly.
Paying a person more doesn’t make them something else.
The fact of the matter was the yankees needed two veteran pitchers to be signed as a free agents this off season.
AJ was paid based on market dynamics.
And this criteria is even sillier because you aren’t factoring in how much marginal wins mean to the yankees.
You’re also absolutely wrong that outlier performances aren’t skewing AJ’s mean statistics. Completely wrong.
His ERA went up 0.4 based on today’s performance alone. That’s a pretty big outlier.
“I don’t mean to be killing the guy. He’s pitched 6 full or better in 20 of his 25 starts. That’s outstanding. But he still ranks among the league leaders in not getting the most of his talent.”
And this is completely paradoxical. By your own description he’s pitched outstanding in 20 of 25 games.
But your subjectively unsatisfied with that because he’s not “getting the most of his talent.”
So it sounds to me like you do mean to “kill” him.
Fulfillment of talent is not the primary criteria through which players should be judged.
By your own admission he’s pitched “outstanding” in 80% of his starts. And he’s giving them very good length. He’s on pace to throw well over 200 innings.
That’s what he is being paid to do.
You’re creating abstract hoops that he needs to jump through before you’ll be happy. And players will never satisfy fans with those criteria because the bar will always shift.
You’re main complaint is that AJ isn’t he player you want him to be.
It’s not that he’s not helping the team in a substantial and material sense. He’s just not as good as you expect.
That’s not reality.
M:
There aren’t 5 pitchers in the game who are paid more than Burnett. There are considerably more than 5 ace-level pitchers. He’s not one of them, but he’s being paid as such.
Tomorrow is a must win game
Cannot lose a series to Boston with our ace on the mound
Cannot give them confidence they would get by having their backs against the wall and beating our 2 best pitchers in back to back days.
Beckett is not as good as people think. We need to smoke him and CC needs to hold it. We have a full pen.. Yoouse for 2, MO for 4 outs. Do anything and everything to win the game.
Biggest game of the season. Let’s see if this team can handle it.
“By your own admission he’s pitched “outstanding” in 80% of his starts. And he’s giving them very good length. He’s on pace to throw well over 200 innings.”
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I never said he was outstanding 80% of the time. He quite clearly hasn’t been. The fact that he’s pitched 6+ 20 times is a good number. Does not mean he’s been good in all those games. But you knew that already.
Good job ducking the WHIP remark too. It stand at 1.40 tonight. He’s been as lucky as he’s been good.
More money doesn’t change a player. It only makes him richer.
The Yanks knew what they were getting when they gave Burnett his contract.
Burnett has been fine this season.
Reality,
That’s a good point, but in reality AJ can be, and has, pitched at an ace like starter level. Yes! This very season!
That’s good enough for me.
We’ve already gotten a ton of value from A.J. compared to his former comrade Pavano.
And guess what! Beckett who is a real ace, has had some real clunkers, too. Does that disqualify him from being an ace?
Oh, Jim.
Look at that, Kurt Suzuki with a walkoff hit against a non-Yankee division leader.
AJ didn’t complain about Jorge…..
“More money doesn’t change a player.”
I’ll go along with you there. It hasn’t changed much.
Tomorrow is not the biggest game of the season and it’s not a so-called “must win.”
The Red Sox cannot even win consistently away from Fenway. They haven’t played well on the road for over two months.
NickSF.
Thanks as always for the correction. I thought it was going fly to under the radar. (hoping) I read it again after typing and hung my head as I was typing too fast.
Here is a poll? Who is dirtier? Pitino or Calipari?
Fine line between Sat night and Sun AM.
Huge LOL on your post.
-dennis
Let’s see what Burnett can do in October. That is all I care about.
Randy Johnson had a better year in 05 than Burnett will have this year. He also went 5-0 against BOS. Yet he tanked in the postseason.
AJ also pitched a big game against the Sox just a couple of weeks ago, he’s pitched well against Tampa – he’s pitched well all season. He’s had 3 terrible starts in Fenway, which have been the aberration this season……..
CB,
How is it possible that AJ actually thought his curve was on today?
Shouldn’t a veteran pitcher know when their pitches are doing what they want them to??
“Thanks for putting words in my mouth.”
This is exactly what you said:
“I don’t mean to be killing the guy. He’s pitched 6 full or better in 20 of his 25 starts. That’s outstanding.”
So you did say he was “outstanding.” I didn’t put any words in your mouth. If you meant he was outstanding in aggregate rather than on an individual game by game basis then so be it but that’s not what you said in your post.
So essentially you are putting new words in your own mouth.
“Good job ducking the WHIP remark too. It stand at 1.40 tonight. He’s been as lucky as he’s been good.”
I’ve addressed this point several times. Aggregate mean statistics don’t tell the story with how AJ has pitched.
And it’s silly to make WHIP the be all and end all of how a pitcher has pitched. It’s one piece of information. It might be the piece of information you are familiar with but that doesn’t make it special in any way.
“And guess what! Beckett who is a real ace, has had some real clunkers, too. Does that disqualify him from being an ace?”
Fair point. Beckett has gone seasons at a time without looking the role of an ace. Guess the difference is he’s had 2-3 seasons where he has looked the role. That would be 2-3 more than Burnett.
Again, I’m calling this guy Ed Whitson. He’s a good pitcher. He has the talent and stuff to get better results. That’s all i’m sayin’.
Tampa is a 3rd place team that has regressed. How is that a big game?
If AJ pitches nothing but clunkers from here on out, that’s not good enough for me. That would make for a frustratingly uneven but ultimately poor season
AJ’s not playing for a gold star for good attendance or a participation ribbon.
Let’s see more of the ace-like results, please?
It has got to be frustrating for Posada
The guy’s curve is getting smoked around the yard and the Sox hitters are picking it up with ease, yet he continues to shake off him off to throw it. The stubborn side of him still hasn’t left.
“And it’s silly to make WHIP the be all and end all of how a pitcher has pitched. It’s one piece of information. It might be the piece of information you are familiar with but that doesn’t make it special in any way.”
Not saying it does, but it’s tells a lot more than anything you’ve offered. You saying doesn’t make it true. He hasn’t been better than last year. Or the year before.
CB.
Hope you are well.
Deep breath. It is Sat eve and the Yanks have the best record in baseball.
-dennis
BTW AJ projects to be around a 4 WAR pitcher this year.
A 4 WAR player is worth $22M to the yankees.
AJ is being paid $16.5M this year.
How about that. AJ’s generating more value for the yankees than they are paying him.
Al August 22nd, 2009 at 11:47 pm
Tampa is a 3rd place team that has regressed. How is that a big game?
——————–
The Red Sox are in second place and were 7-1/2 games out to start the day.
How was today a big game when Tito waived the white flag on the AL East by not pitching Lester and taking his troops out of the 5th inning last night?
Nick – Amen.
CB, great posts…….Maybe AJ will never live up to his full potential, but he’s still a very good pitcher and who has made needed adjustments to become a better pitcher. If he ends his career as a very good #2, what more could you ask? He grew up a little late and has some quirks that might prevent him from doing more with his talent, but he works very hard and he clearly wants to win…..He wants badly to succeed on the big stage and the fact that he stayed in the AL East instead of going to the NL…..that says something. He’s been a great teammate, to boot.
If AJ had a WHIP of 1.20 or better (e.g. Cutting out the walks), he’d probably be a Cy Young candidate.
If anything, his success despite the walks (a problem throughout his career) is a testament to his quality stuff.
dennis,
Things are well. You know how it goes. The yanks or sox lose to the other and every player on the team is an under performing bum.
Have a good night – and get some sleep! If 14-1 doesn’t put you to bed then I don’t know what will!
dennis: I think Calipari. The pupil has surpassed the master. But I cut Pitino some slack for keeping his Knicks season tickets even when he was coaching the Celtics.
Boy CB, you’ve said everything I wanted to say, but much better than I could have…..
When he’s on, AJ can be an ace. He’s not consistent enough. However, before this season, people were dumping on him for being a very mediocre pitcher. He’s not – do you know how good a pitcher must be to be a #2? Ask any of his teammates and they will tell you how much they appreciate AJ’s efforts this year.
20-11 and 14-1 mean nothing in 20 hours
“Tomorrow is a must win game”
hah yea right
“Cannot lose a series to Boston with our ace on the mound”
lol
“Biggest game of the season. Let’s see if this team can handle it.”
says who?
Why is nobody mentioning the fact that we couldn’t score runs off Tazawa?
Meh, some people just want to have something to complain about.
Burnett has been fine this season. He hasn’t been perfect, but he’s stayed healthy and that was my biggest concern about him coming into this season.
This team is fine. A win tomorrow erases all the nonsense people are spewing tonight.
“How is it possible that AJ actually thought his curve was on today?”
BD,
I don’t know. He looked uncomfortable on the mound today and I’m not sure why.
It seemed like he had made up his mind before he got out on the mound that he was going to throw his curve and feature that. That seemed like his plan and he didn’t want to diverge from it as he’d made up his mind.
Don’t know why he would do that given the success he had last time out in NY. It may have been him forcing the issue and deciding he had to give the sox a different look?
I was very surprised to see him throw a curve ball to Ortiz in the first. Didn’t understand it.
He just looked very high strung today on the mound and melted down.
It’s disappointing but you move on.
The yanks only needed to win 1 of these 3 games and they’ve done that.
I personally don’t have “favorites”. I root for all 25 players on the team the same.
A win for AJ is the same as a win for CC
A HR for Tex is the same as a HR from Damon
A good performance from Coke is the same as it is from Hughes
etc. etc. etc.
NickSF.Wow. I did not realize the Knicks had a season ticket program. Thanks for the info.
CB. Sleep is for the weak. Yet, I am weak and still can not sleep?? JK.
-dennis
BD, and a testament to AJ’s improved ability to work around not having his best stuff. When he signed here, Jays fans said how we were getting a pitcher who could only pitch well when he had dominant stuff. False…….that may have been AJ elsewhere, but not here in NY. How many times have we seen this guy work around walks, work around not having his FB or Curve? This is why I said earlier that AJ is a better pitcher now than he has been in the past…..
Losing the Texas series may not be the worst thing in the world.
Anything to hurt Boston’s playoff chances is fine by me.
CB,
I guess that’s where the frustration comes in.
Is today much different than Joba has been with his slider this season?
At what point can Girardi or Eiland pull these guys aside and smack some sense into them?
Sunday’s game is not big at all. The Yanks already did what they needed to with Friday’s win/pounding.
If the Yanks win manyana it is gravy.
I hate gravy. Very overated.
-dennis
At least we’ll all past trying to blame Posada.
“How about that. AJ’s generating more value for the yankees than they are paying him.”
Lend it some context. What’s Jered Weaver worth to his team? Or Justin Verlander to his?
What’s Sabathia worth? Or Pettitte?
Dennis,
I agree the game is far from a must-win for either club.
However, I think a Sox win could really give them some momentum.
“At least we’ll all past trying to blame Posada.”
A seperate car for the parade is still a good idea.
I love AJ and think he is doing very well but come on…
If a guy making $16.5 million with a 4.08 ERA is worth $22 million, then how much is Lincecum worth to SF? King Felix to SEA? $200 million?
All these sabremetric things are useless.
AJ is worth $22 million to the Yankees?
Tex/Cano are below average at first? Swisher is well above average in right?
Yeah, that is a bit ridiculous, re: AJ being worth $22 million.
I bet it is also misleading considering there are so many better pitchers than him who make relative peanuts. How much are they worth to their team?
If AJ wasn’t here and the Yanks had gone with plan B (Lowe?) or plan C (???), how much worse would their team be?
Tough to say, but I think the Yanks/Sox game would be far more important tomorrow.
I’m sure fangraphs or whatever site was linked lately with players’ values can do a much better job than me, but simply put the Yankees are 16-9 in AJ’s starts and 16-10 in CC’s starts.
m,
But is that CC’s fault?
For example… that game he pitched in Boston. 7 innings, 3 hits, 1 run, well over 100 pitches but had to come out for the 8th because we had no pen, but we ended up losing. If Hughes was there, very good chance we win that game.
or that game against Tampa where it was tied in the 9th and MO gave up 4 runs and we lost.
Same things can be applied to Andy or any pitcher… that’s why I think those fangraph things don’t tell the whole story.
Similarly, we are 5-2 in games Mitre or Gaudin start right?
And we have some crazy winning percentage in games Joba starts, even though most of the time he left after 5 with a mediocre line.
That’s why I don’t like that stat… way too many variables.
BD,
Yep. Same can be said if we didn’t have CC. And possibly even if we don’t have Tex but Boston does.
We hit on all 3 FA signings… that is great.
Not saying it’s CC’s fault. Someone asked what’s CC’s value, and this was a crude way of comparing AJ to CC. AJ was 5-0 in July. CC is 4-0 in August so far. The Yankees are 6-3 in AJ’s no-decisions. He’s pitched some pretty good games where he’s given up 3 runs or less that have ended up in losses or no-decisions. The point is they all are giving value. There’s no scrubs in the discussion.
And yet virtually all of is would agree that CC is and has been the better pitcher. Stats are funny.
If you listen to AJ’s audio,he’s practically mumbling.Probably said all that others feel and more,to himself.He knows baseball is a game of pitching,and good pitching stops hitting.
I hope he an Jorge get on the same page now.If you think the sux are hard to beat,what about the Angels.
Everybody will need to bring their A game.
People get too caught up in salaries.
Players are worth what someone is willing to pay them.
Don’t think anyone was debating which pitcher is better.
People are talking about value.
It wasn’t fangraphs, it was Gritty & Clutch.
CC’s salary is listed as $14m because he took a portion of his 2009 salary as a bonus.
http://grittyandclutch.blogspo.....-york.html
Can’t read that right now, on my blackberry.
When I said that CC was the better pitcher, I didn’t mean more gifted, I meant more valuable to the Yankees this season. I don’t think the posting of the team’s records in his starts vs. AJ’s absent any other context disproves that.
After, what, 46 runs in the last two games, I’m calling right now that tomorrow will be 1-0. Not sure who wins, though.
I didn’t say CC was less valuable. I merely intimated that AJ has pitched better than some people perceive.
That’s a pretty low bar, but on that last point we can agree. He has indeed pitched better than some people perceive.
CC and AJ have been great for us. They helped us go from 3rd to 1st. Bad games like this happen. We just have to move on and score some runs off Beckett like we usually do.
This is no big deal. The Yanks still have a good size lead on the division. No reason to panic although Fat Mike on WFAN will blow a gasket if the Yanks don’t win tonight. Moments like those are why I am glad I listen to Michael Kay and ESPN Radio.
Deep breath everyone. We’re up 6.5 games. Tonight will be fun.
did not see sats. game on vacation but back. did not read all the posts. aj with his catcher issues is a joke. he is 32 and basically throws 2 pitches, how hard does it need to be??
He pitched great in 1 game against the sux…..his ERA is over 4 now, need him to get his head together…
biggest game of the season!!!!!
no friggin way. sundays game means jack………..
these biggest game fans are hilarious…..
Like AJ or not, he’s pitching Game 2 of any playoff series. Does that proposition excite you? I thought not.
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.....id=3467649
Burnett as a Jay pitching against the Red Sox.
Burnett has pitched good baseball for most of the season.All things being relative is he earning the money he’s getting?
Hardly.
12 2/3 innings @ Fenway 22 hits 20 runs 14.21 ERA.This is unacceptable.
It has very little to do with pitching at Fenway .It has more to do with pressure.
A.J. career E.R.A. @ Fenway going into this season was decent.Why?
If the season ended tmrw NY would be playing Detroit facing Verlander and Jackson at home and if they got by Detroit They would play either LA or Boston the matchups would possibly be Weaver and Lackey or Beckett and Lester.
If Sabathia loses game 1 in either round would Burnett rise to the occasion ? I wonder.
NY still needs a waiver wire deal for a starter.
Burnett’s line @ Fenway this yr:
12 2/3 innings 22 hits 20 runs 14.21 ERA
Unacceptable.No excuses.
If the season ended tmrw Burnett’s opponent would be Jackson of Detroit and if NY survives round 1 his next advisary would be either Lackey or Weaver depending how Sciosia lines them up or Lester if Boston gets in .Whew !
If you look at AJ’s stats he has pitched most poorly with posada behind the plate. Four catchers have caught him and the hits are more than the innings pitched only with posada. Also his era is lowest with cervelli, than molina, cash and posada.
It was reported that Mussina didn’t like pitching to posada and both burnett and posada have stated that they can’t get on the same page. So maybe it would be worth having molina catch aj and have posada rest. This will help him and it also gives a rest to posada and keeps his 38 year old knees fresh. Just a thought.