Don’t look back, Joe Mauer, Derek Jeter is gaining on you
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Aug 31, 2009 
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Those who enjoy deciding such things in early August determined that Joe Mauer had to be the MVP of the American League.
Not so fast.
Mauer since July 1: .351/.415/.556
Derek Jeter since July 1: .370/.421/.522
Mauer is in a 5 for 25 skid. He has no extra-base hits and one RBI in that stretch while his Twins fight for their playoff lives. Hmm, most valuable?
Meanwhile, Jeter has hit .381 in August and been all things to all people for the rampaging Yankees.
Yes, I know, Mauer is a catcher and it’s really quite impressive that he has hit for such a high average. I’m sure those statistics only 17 people understand reflect quite well on him. But shortstop ain’t no walk in the park.
There is plenty of baseball left and I don’t plan to fill out my ballot until the final out is made. But Jeter is giving me a lot to think about.
If the Twins don’t make the post season then just how valuable can Mauer be? For me, the MVP has to come from a team that has made the playoffs.
Jeter needs 25 hr to make the MVP!
Jeter is closing in on Mauer in WAR as well. I want Jeter to rob Mauer of the MVP, and even though Mauer is a catcher with power and average and onbase and great defense, I think Jeter would be pretty deserving of an MVP trophy this season. It will also make up for Morneau robbing Jeter in 06, and Pudge robbing the field in 99
If the Twins don’t make the post season then just how valuable can Mauer be? For me, the MVP has to come from a team that has made the playoffs.
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I never like this kind of argument. Baseball is a team sport where even the best and most prolific hitters / pitchers can do so much.
1 pitcher going every 5 days wont make a difference if the 4 guys after him suck. Or the bullpen sucks. Or the lineup sucks.
1 hitter can’t do it all when the rest of his team blows, or the pitchers blow.
Mauer, based on his baseball contributions, is probably the most valuable player in the league. Stick him on a team like the yankees and you’d see just how valuable he is. He’d probably be batting third.
teixera is the mvp of the league.
Obviously the winner of the MVP will be from a playoff team. The only way this doesn’t happen is if a candidate is hands down miles above the next best candidates, like Arod circa 2003. There is no one that qualifies in that regard as of now. Tex would be just as deserving as the captain. I’d actually be very satisfied with the captain and tex being named co-MVP’s, but that is neither here nor there, who cares about this stuff until after the year??
I have no delusions that Jeter will win the MVP, even if Mauer comes back to the pack. He will split votes with Tex, but more importantly, he won’t have the power stats. I don’t think Jeter is a serious contender for the award based on the above…..If he didn’t win it in 2006, he will never win it.
I just think its great that Jeter has silenced a ton of critics this year. Joe Mauer may be deserving given his position and numbers, but Jeter has been fantastic on both defense and offense. His team-first mantra is the best part of his season for me.
Mauer’s slumping now and Jeter is having his hottest streak of the season, which is making Jeter’s MVP case look better than it really is.
Mauer leads the AL in AVG, OBP, and SLG. He plays superb defense behind the plate. Thinking that the MVP has to come from a playoff team is pretty dumb, because you’re penalizing/rewarding guys for the other 24 players on his team. Stick Mauer on the Yanks, and he’s be a superhero.
It’s a debate, but not much of one. Mauer is clearly the best player in the league, and therefpre the most valuable to his team.
Wow, forgive the spelling errors.
Your team doesnt have to make the playoffs to win the MVP, but you should be playing meaningful games in Sept. If the Twins finish within 3 games of the Division, Mauer is the MVP. If the Twins are out of it by the end of this week, the MVP should go to Jeter or Tex
Forget 2006….If he didn’t win in it in 99 he will never win it. His number in 99 were just unreal, and he finished 6th in the voting. Check it out.
AL WAR LEADERS:
Zobrist – 6.5
Mauer – 6.4
Jeter – 5.9
Longoria – 5.0
Those advanced stats are pretty damn close. If the Rays make it, I would give it to Ben, but otherwise, it really should be Jeter’s year. Mauer could seal the deal of course with a nice close, and I’d have no complaints, but Jeter will have enough advanced stats, and old school grit to win it.
But the media hates New York, so unless the stats are clear cut, don’t expect a Yankee to win the MVP.
Mauer’s numbers since July 1st still have been slightly better than Jeter’s… Hell I’d love it if Jeter won the award as he did deserve it in 2006, but as of right now, if the season ended today, it’s not close. Mauer clearly should win the thing.
“Mauer already stole one MVP from Jeter. Let’s not make a similar mistake this year.”
Mauer’s never won an MVP then again your name more or less discounts anything you say anyway.
Really, the only thing you can hold against Mauer this year is that he hadn’t played the whole year. Jeter should get some bonus points for being out there practically every inning of every game.
Buuuuuut Mauer is still the MVP by far, I’m sorry. Who cares about this “THE MVP MUST PLAY ON A PLAYOFF TEAM, OTHERWISE HOW IS HE VALUABLE” is such ridiculous nonsense. Is it Mauer’s fault that Nick Blackburn hasn’t been able to pitch past the 4th inning recently? Or that the bottom of the Twins order are automatic outs?
Mauer has a 1.044 OPS and a 179 OPS+. As a catcher. His VORP is crazy high, even higher than Jeter, who plays another offensively-starved position. It isn’t even close right now. Like advanced stats or hate them, they don’t lie.
Mauer leads the league in OPS and the second place player (Youkilis) is a full 70 points behind. By comparison, 9 players are within 70 OPS points of Youkilis. Meaning, Mauer’s season has been on an whole other level from the other elite hitters in the league.
Plus, he is a great defensive catcher. Plus, you kow what, the Twins actually are in the hunt for AL Central. There is not a shot in heck they compete without Mauer.
Mauer leads in every important rate statistic and his counting numbers are also very good, despite the number of games he missed.
Maybe Jeter will have an incredible September and Mauer will go in a huge slump. As a huge Yankee/Jeter fan, I would love this. At which point, Jeter will deserve the MVP.
But if the season ended today, it’s not even clsoe.
Well if Jeter keeps hitting .380 in September and Mauer’s average slides down 10-15 points, Jeter might have a shot.
Mike A, you said this:
“It’s a debate, but not much of one. Mauer is clearly the best player in the league, and therefpre the most valuable to his team.”
i guess my question is, how true is this statement? is the best player in baseball the mvp by default? could be. and obviously anyone could make a case for this being true but personally, i dont agree. i actually do think its possible for the best player in the league to not be the most valuable player for a team. im not saying that if you dont insert mauer into any line up it wouldnt automatically be better.. but i think the same is true for both jeter and tex. to me, ‘most valuable player’ is the guy youd pick first on the playground. the guy youd build the rest of your team around. personally, i think thats jeter. ive said the same since he’s come up, i dont think there is another player in baseball id be more willing to build an entire team around than derek. but thats just me. i realize most people believe mauer will and should get the votes.
Mauer deserves it. I know Jeet has had a great, really spectacular, August, but it’s not even close.
I hope either he or Tex wins anyway, though.
Well if the Twins make the postseason which they can since they are right behind the Tigers then it will be a tough decision.
Sorry, I love Jeter but he’s going to have to overtake Mauer (and Suzuki and maybe Cabrera for that matter) before he’ll have a chance at MVP. Numbers-wise Jeter is having one of HIS best years but there are many in the American league that are putting up better numbers so all he’s got going for him is the sentimental vote that this could be his last big year – which should be huge but I’m not sure it’s going to be enough to get sportswriters outside of the AL East beat to vote for him if he doesn’t have the numbers to pull him at least even with the Mauers of the world.
One thing to consider when looking at WAR is that while it gives a positional adjustment for catching, it doesn’t rate defense at the position. Thus Mauer, who is by all accounts an excellent defensive catcher, is probably at least at 7.0 WAR if we could evaluate him properly.
Pete, I don’t get only looking at their numbers since July 1st. Did Bud Selig pass some edict that double-weights stretch run games while I was asleep? I get your point that there’s still more baseball to be played, but right now Mauer’s season to date has still been better than Jeter’s, even when counting the missed month against him. That’s how ridiculous he’s been. At least it doesn’t look like someone will come in and steal the award from these two as they battle it out again like Morneau did in 2006.
“Well if Jeter keeps hitting .380 in September and Mauer’s average slides down 10-15 points, Jeter might have a shot.”
Batting average is a terrible way to evaluate a hitter. Mauer’s power numbers blow Jeter’s out of the water, and any Yankee fan knows that Jeter has had the benefit of a right field porch that has yielded many homers that should have been outs or doubles.
Jeter’s OPS is 880, which is super for a shortstop. But when you consider that hitting catchers are harder to find than hitting shortstops, and Mauer’s OPS is nearly 160 points higher than Jeter’s, you see why the race isn’t even close at this point. Jeter would need to hit about 10-15 more homers or 20-30 more doubles to even have a chance at making this close. And that’s assuming Mauer does nothing the rest of the season.
There are 30 games left. MVP awards have been won in September so let’s see what happens.
To say one player is clearly the MVP on August 31st seems a bit premature to me. That’s why they play the games.
I said it on the game thread yesterday,Jeter for MVP.
He’s slowly eating up the records of Yankee greats too.
I don’t like WAR because it uses UZR which is inaccurate.
That, of course, is a matter of debate. But I don’t like UZR, a very subjective statistic.
Bat jeter 3rd for the rest of the season and his overall stats will start looking good..
For Mauer not to be deserving of MVP he would have to have an incredibly, ridiculously bad September…and he’d STILL be in the mix.
Not even close. There’s no justification for voting for anyone other than Mauer right now, and they’d pretty much have to continue at those paces for the rest of the year to make it a debate. A vote for anyone other than Mauer right now would be moronic.
Wait, one of the awesome things about Fangraphs is it breaks down all the components for you. Say you don’t like UZR (I do, but I get why people don’t) — it’s easy enough to take a player’s fielding runs out of his WAR total, at which point one can make a subjective judgment or just consider the players without defense. For example, Jeter’s been +5.8 RAA defensively this year. If you don’t trust those numbers, you could normalize his WAR total to that of an average defensive shortstop by subtracting .6 WAR.
Ben Zobrist will not come close to MVP whether TB makes the playoffs of not. No chance. Perception is reality for a lot of voters and he is not perceived as a MVP kind of player. I’m not saying that is right, because it’s not. But that is how it is.
And if Minnesota finishes 10 games out first and Jeter hits .335, he’s going to have a hell of a shot. Again, just based on how people perceive things.
As for “the media hates NY thing, that is just silly. There is no proof of that. In anything, because the Yankees are on TV so often, they get more cred from people elsewhere.
Kevin S.-So what would his WAR be then?
The media as a whole doesn’t hate NY, but I do think that ESPN does. Which shouldn’t impact MVP voting.
Jeter is gaining, but Mauer is on the verge of having the best season ever by a catcher. And baseball’s been around for over a hundred years.
Jeter will have to stay at this pace for the next month to truly steal it from Mauer.
Mauer isn’t an ever day player.
he’s only caught 84 games.
Wait, if you normalized him to an average defensive short stop, he’d be at 5.3 right now. Consider that Mauer already is normalized to an average defensive catcher, there’s still a sizable (though not insurmountable) gap between the two of them.
“Mauer isn’t an ever day player.
he’s only caught 84 games.”
Because he missed the first month of the season, and he still leads the AL in WAR, which is a counting stat.
Well that’s interesting. Thanks Kevin S.
Tunnel Man, I think he missed some time due to injury.
jeter should pick up some lifetime achievement votes too for MVP.
“teixera is the mvp of the league.”
He’s had a great year, but he’s not the MVP. Getting numbers like his from 1st base is simply not as valuable as getting them from catcher or shortstop. Among 1B’s, I believe Teixeira is 4th among 1B’s (3rd if you choose to think of Youkilis as something other than a 1B). Angels didn’t exactly suffer at 1B w/o Teixeira, did they?
Best year as a catcher:
Bench 1970: 45 HR 148 RBI .293 BA 139 games behind the plate.
“jeter should pick up some lifetime achievement votes too for MVP.”
He’ll get his Lifetime Achievement Award 5 years from when he hangs them up.
How many “ever day” catchers do you know of, Tunnel Man? And since Mauer has inarguably provided more value to the Twins in the games he’s been out there than any other player in the league has all season, what difference does it make?
Interesting discussion here.
Pete (or anyone), how deeply do the writers look at stuff like UZR (ridiculous that a catcher even has such a stat lol), WAR, and other ubiquitous stats? In other words, how much do the writers value sabermetrics to decide these things? Are they as versed in sabermetrics as some of the fans here are?
Tex making a case by going over 100 rbi yesterday. Jeter making a case with his bat, glove, and leadership on the best team in baseball. Mauer is in the midst of a historic season, how many games will he ultimately play? How will the season end for the Twins? Mauer will either go 1 or 2 on every ballot with Tex & Jeter getting the other vote. So, Mauer will win. But that’s okay, the two Yankee infielders have their eye on the bigger prize.
Mauer missing a month and still putting up those power stats along with that ridiculous average, for a CATCHER….I mean, d*mn. Unless he goes O for Sept or Minnesota wins 3 games for the month, it wouldn’t be right for Jeter or Tex(who I believe is the real MVP of the Yankees) to win MVP. I wouldn’t cry if Jeter won it, though, he deserved it in ‘06 and got robbed. But this shouldn’t turn into the Academy Awards, where people are selected based on lifetime achievment.
Wait till the ALDS August 31st, 2009 at 1:05 pm
The media as a whole doesn’t hate NY, but I do think that ESPN does. Which shouldn’t impact MVP voting.
————————————————–
The general media hates the Yankees. There were countless articles after the Tex signing screaming “unfair”. The constant whinning about the payroll and new park. Yet you never-ever hear a peep about Boston’s payroll and their bandbox.
I’d argue with the notion that Tex has had a “great” year. Pretty good, certainly. Probably not in the top 10 for MVP.
Pete-
Are you totally dismissing Tex as a candidate for MVP?
As of right now, Tex would win over Jeter, but if Jete repeats his August in September, then we can talk.
Perception is indeed reality in this case and the public’s perception of Jeter has to be as high as it’s been in years, possibly ever.
That being said, Mauer is definitely more deserving of the accolades at this point.
The media may not hate the Yankees, but they’re penalized often for being on a team of “all-stars”. The perception is that MVP candidates from the Yankees don’t have to “carry” their team.
m-
What i’d like to know is how the heck did reporters vote for mvp back in the day when these crazy scientific formulas
did not exist? Intangibles must have counted more, yathink?
I dont see how people think Mark Teixeira is the mvp. Teixeira is having a great year but is numbers are pretty much the same if not a little worse than other first basemen in the league like Miguel Cabrera and Kendry Morales.
MVP will come down to Jeter or Mauer. If Jeter finishes up the season the way he has been playing the last month he should win it. Mauer is not going to make the playoffs that is should hurt him.
Mauer isn’t an every-day catcher, period.
he’s only caught 80 games, he’s played 21 games at DH, and he’s pinch hit in 4.
There is no way Maur should win MVP. The Twins aren’t even going to make the playoffs, and I’m from the school of thought that says the MVP should be from a playoff bound team. It should be Jeter or Tex.
mick,
That’s right. Haha. Jeter would’ve won every year of his career if that were the case.
They must’ve gone by the “best player on the best team” criteria.
Tunnel Man- again, there’s no such thing as an every day catcher. And the fact remains that he’s been the most valuable player in the AL and arguably in baseball despite missing some time, so it’s hard to see the relevance here.
Jim- that’s not a school of thought. That’s a ridiculous and insupportable idea that’s somehow been thoughtlessly accepted by the masses.
the”yankee” penalty exists because the general opinion is the yanks should win anyway, because of their wealth. they do better in a year they lose, as far as mvp goes.
It’s not called the Best Player in the League Award!
It’s not called the Player With the Best Stats Award!
It’s not called the Best Player at his Position Award!
It’s not called the Who has the Most Homers Award!
It’s not called the This is My Favorite Stat Award!
It’s the Most Valuable Player Award!
Even if Mauer hits .200 in September, he should still get it.
He’s doing things as a catcher that we haven’t seen since Yogi in the 70s. You have to reward him for that.
“It’s the Most Valuable Player Award!”
Acutally it’s CALLED the Most Valauable Player Award, but oftentimes the winner is not he who’s been most valuable to his team.
Right, TJ. And of the many possible definitions of “the Most Valuable Player Award,” the only one that makes any sense at all is to make it mean the exact same thing as “the Best Player in the League Award.”
Mauer isn’t an every-day catcher, period.
—
Before being injured, Mauer averaged 120 games caught a season. Thats an everyday catcher. He missed a months worth of games.
He is an every day catcher.
Washburn gives up 6 runs in the 1st inning vs. Tampa…
Mauer should be rewarded. I think dinner with Yogi would be a fitting award.
Who are we kidding? It’s a best stats award.
And best stats don’t equate to most valuable in baseball.
Derek Jeter getting the World Series MVP would be OK by me.
“And best stats don’t equate to most valuable in baseball.”
Yes. Yes, they do.
So what is the criteria for “valuable”? Explain to me how Maur is more “valuable” to his team, to the league than Jeter has been?
Jerkface,
we’re talking about this year. this year, he hasn’t been an every-day catcher. He plays in a air-conditioned dome, and he plays a quarter of his games at DH (riding pine). It’s not as if he’s caught 6 games per week in the Texas heat and humidity.
“Among 1B’s, I believe Teixeira is 4th among 1B’s (3rd if you choose to think of Youkilis as something other than a 1B).”
In what category?
He leads the league in RBIs.
Leads in HRs among all 1Bs.
Gold glove defense.
As much as I like Jeter’s chances, numbers do matter and I think Tex will get more votes than Jeter.
” Even if Mauer hits .200 in September, he should still get it.
He’s doing things as a catcher that we haven’t seen since Yogi in the 70s. You have to reward him for that.”
Agreed!
Any player who can put up those numbers AND manage the Mets is obviously worthy ov an MVP award.
If you’re the best player in the league the logical extension would be that on a contending team you’d be more valuable than any other player.
baseball today is overrun by numbers. this is not an exact science. reporters do not scour these numbers like fans, they are too busy covering the games. the most important stats are still hrs, avg. and rbi’s. whats the difference if mauer is a catcher or not?
It ticks me off when people claim that considering team performance in MVP evaluations is “dumb” or “silly” or “ridiculous” or “nonsense”. There’s every reason to factor that into consideration.
It is the Most VALUABLE Player, not “player of the year”. To me, if your team isn’t in contention that diminishes the “VALUE” of your performance. Why isn’t that relevant? the ability to produce in a pennant race is one of the most important things for any player and is truly, clearly “valuable”.
Mauer has 47 extra base hits, Jeter has 42. For Mauer’s alleged superb defense he has three errors and seven passed balls and he’s thrown out less than 30 percent of opposing base stealers. That’s not even close to be elite level defense. In fact, it’s rather ordinary.
If I had a vote right now it would go to Mauer, but to say it’s not close and that how many pennant race type games he plays in doesn’t matter is… well, Dumb, silly, ridiculous and nonsense.
Bill,
Personally, I feel that there’s a lot of value in winning. If their division wasn’t so bad, they wouldn’t even have a chance for the postseason.
The Twins aren’t going anywhere. Well, they might because Washburn’s really not helping the cause right now. lol.
It wasn’t intended to be the Best Player in the League Award!
Was Philip Francis Rizzuto the best Player in the league in 1950????
Mauer is hitting .387 in August, yep, he’s really struggling. That post is ridiculous cherry picking. PeteAbe pointed out that Mauer is 5 for his last 25? who cares, it’s 25 at bats.
I disagree with a few of these comments. Best stats kind of DO mean most valuable.
In what category? OPS
He leads the league in RBIs. True.
Leads in HRs among all 1Bs. Not true
Gold glove defense. So do a few others.
I can understand why some of you are such Mauer/Fanboys, he is a good looking guy.
So what is the criteria for “valuable”? Explain to me how Maur is more “valuable” to his team, to the league than Jeter has been?
—
Mauer plays one of the most demanding positions on the field, which is not home to many good hitting players. He is destroying all of baseball and its not even close with the bat. He also provides elite defense at the same position. He controls the running game very well. He gets on base ridiculously while also hitting amazingly (for everyone that loves avg) and hits the tar out of the ball (power!). Its like if Robinson Cano had Swisher’s eye and Teixeira’s power, while being Jose Molina behind the plate.
Jeter is one of the best hitting short stops in the American League not named Jason Bartlett and is providing plus defense at the position. However there are short stops that are hitting as well as he is. There are shortstops playing better defense.
Mauer is better than everyone in baseball. Jeter is better than some shortstops. Teixeira is about as good as a number of first basemen (and a couple are better than he is: cabrera, morneau, youkilis).
Mauer > Jeter
If Rizzuto did not have the best statistics of any player in the league when he won MVP, he didn’t deserve it.
“.Are they as versed in sabermetrics as some of the fans here are?”
m-
how many people do you know who write well that are also really good with numbers.
i’m sure pete appreciates sabermetrics, but i’m guessing the statistics course were far and few in between.
plus sportswriters by virtue of their writing already have an in to the game.
sabermetrics was really a back door way for people( actually almost all white males) who couldn’t play and who didn’t write well to sneak in the back door and try to present a case for themselves by making everyone think they knew something
each season is a different story. if a player captures the fancy of the reporters and it makes a good story, there is your mvp.
I think whats unfortuante is that most voters for the award do not get to see Jeter play everyday……His stats are fantastic, but compared to some of the other contenders, like Mauer, dwarfs what Jeet has done thie year..
If the Sox win the WC, I might give it to Jason Bay
He’s going to have 35 HRs, 120 RBIs, good defense etc.
I’d take Tex over Cabrera in a heartbeat.
Morneau and Youk, well, there’s a debate (he’s hitting for more power than both of them). But while Cabrera may be hitting the tar off the ball, I’ll take Tex’s combination of hitting and defense any day.
“Rizzuto was voted the American League’s Most Valuable Player by a large margin in 1950, after having been the runner-up for the award behind Ted Williams in 1949. He became the only MVP in history who lead the league in sacrifice bunts. Rizzuto played in five All-Star Games, in 1942 and each year from 1950 to 1953. In 1950, he also won the Hickok Belt, awarded to the top professional athlete of the year, and was named Major League Player of the Year by The Sporting News. He was voted top major league shortstop by The Sporting News four consecutive years (1949-1952).”
Jason Bay should not be in the discussion.
“He’s going to have 35 HRs, 120 RBIs, good defense etc”
His defense has been fairly weak. He had a couple of brutal months and really didn’t turn it back around until V. Martinez got there.
A lot of very dumb sportwriters in 1950!
LOL!
So, as I understand it, the basic argument against Joe Mauer is that the Polhads are his owners, thus his teammates are Nick Punto and Carlos Gomez. As Ken Tremendous might say, “F*ck the sh*t?!” How is it Mauer’s fault that the Twins didn’t put a good team around him?
I’ll also add likewise that if Rizzuto DId have the best stats the year he won MVP, he did deserve it.
Until Tex can figure out how to get off to a fast start, he’s always going to be fighting an uphill battle for an MVP.
Jeter has been on fire but even at his hottest, he doesn’t put up the “sexy” numbers that MVPs are made of. Chicks and sportwriters dig the long ball.
Mauer putting up the numbers he does at catcher is insane. The nagging injuries catchers get make those kinds of numbers almost impossible.
86w183, the reason it’s dumb is exemplified by your post: putting “VALUABLE” in quotes and all caps, as though there’s something about the definition of the word that just makes it blindingly obvious that you’re right, doesn’t do anything at all to help your case. “Most Valuable” absolutely can mean “best,” and there’s no reason to believe it was intended to mean anything else. A player can only control what he can control, and his performance is exactly as valuable as it is regardless of whether the team he’s on wins 100 or 80 or 40. You can define it in other ways, but what sense does it make? Why base an individual award on what the other 24 guys on the team do? Nobody has ever answered this question in a way that makes any kind of sense, and I must’ve asked it 100 times now.
m- same answer. Agreed, there’s value in winning. Mauer does more to help his team win than any other player in the AL does to help that player’s team win. Thus, Mauer is the most valuable. The fact that the team as a whole hasn’t done a great job of winning has nothing to do with Mauer’s value.
Tunnel Man, you’re just silly. Only two catchers in the AL are on pace to catch more games than Mauer would be if he’d been healthy at the start of the year (~127), and when Mauer doesn’t catch, he DHes. He’s only sat out two games since his season debut. How many other catchers can say that? Mauer is the very definition of an everyday catcher. And again, he’s far and away the most valuable player in the league no matter how you classify him, so it’s hard to see why it matters.
Here is the true test.
Put Mauer on the Yankees.
Is he the MVP?
I think Kevin means “F*ck the heck?” but the reference is appreciated
“I’m just happy to be nominated.”
Seriously, I think it’s fantastic that the Yankees have two players who have to be given serious consideration for MVP this season.
At least if Mauer does get the award, it would be deserved. I don’t believe Morneau, as good a player as he was, deserved the award over Jeter in 2006.
I do think, though, that the last 6 weeks of the season end up determining the winner.
Just for Fun!
http://www.baseball-reference......ders.shtml
I think the fact he missed as many games as he has hurts his chances. If he were on the Yanks he would be looked at as a smaller part of a larger entity, a winning team where the MVP would be the player who carries the team down the stretch in August and September. So it remains to be seen who will win it as September baseball looms.
Bill -
you just wrong. Mauer DHs a quarter of the time. A DH shouldn’t be the MVP. Jeter has DHed in a mere 4 games.
Mauer: .367/.435/.608, 179 OPS+, 25 HR, 79 RBI, 77 R, 3 SB
Jeter: .335/.398/.482, 130 OPS+, 17 HR, 60 RBI, 93 R, 23 SB
Mauer has a pretty significant advantage in almost every basic offensive category, only trailing in runs and stolen bases. He’s also doing it as a catcher and, while SS is certainly no picnic, putting up offensive numbers anything like that while playing excellent defense at catcher is close to unheard of.
Wow, Dom Dimmaggio had a pretty good year in 1950.
All of this Mauer love has made me sick all season. I get it.. He is a catcher who, at one point of the season, looked like he could bat .400. Incredible? YES.. But the award is called MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. Meaning, if you took this particular person off the team, the team would not be able to function. Mauer isn’t even the MVP of the Twins..
Morneau has more HRs, RBIs and Runs scored..But Mauer is more valuable to the team because he is batting .367?
I understand the Twins are a garbage team.. But that’s exactly why is crazy to even consider this guy in the MVP discussion. They play in the worst division in the American League and can’t crack the .500 mark. They faced the White Sox, Indians & Royals how many times this year? 50 combined? The 2 latter teams are 2 of the worst teams in the AL yet the Twins can’t get above .500.
Jeter is having one of his best seasons of the decade and plays for the team with the best record in baseball. He also got robbed of an MVP by Justin 3 years ago.
It’s time for Jeter to get his long deserved award. If not this season, then probably never. Which would be a shame.
And now, Tunnel Man demonstrates that he can neither do math nor understand the concept of majority. Mauer’s DHed one in every five games he’s played, not one in every four. You know what most catchers do on that fifth day, Tunnel Man? Take the day off. Mauer continues to contribute to his team instead of taking the day off completely.
I;d like to know the “cut-off” for Mauers #s to be unMVP-like? Under .340? would 30 hrs be a lock? under 110 rbis? its ridiculous. if his team drops in the standings as his #s go up. jeter and tex would trade the mvps for a ring anyway and thats all that counts.
Tunnel Man-
That makes no sense. Mauer DHes the same amount of time that other catchers just sit on the bench. You’re punishing him for spending more time on the field than any other catcher. And it’s obviously ridiculous to compare the playing time of catchers and shortstops.
And for the fifth time, regardless, it can’t be reasonably disputed that Mauer has provided more value in his 105 games than Jeter has in his 124. So it’s hard to see how what you’re saying, even if it were remotely coherent, makes any difference.
Bill —
Just because you’ve decided “most valuable” simply means “best” doesn’t make it so.
I don’t think it’s punishing a guy on a non-contender as much as it’s rewarding a guy who plays under the pressure of a playoff race. I think most rational people would agree that it’s more difficult to play under that pressure than it is to play in games that don’t have such significance.
If you’ve asked this question 100 times and can’t get an answer that makes sense either you are asking idiots or you are a completely dense individual.
How can you make the argument that performances on terrible teams are as “valuable” as performances in a pennant race? Have you ever looked up the meaning of the word?
I suppose in your world the MVP would go to whoever leads the league in OPS, right?
In my world we require some thought and analysis. Try it some time, you might enjoy it.
“Jeter is having one of his best seasons of the decade and plays for the team with the best record in baseball”
Take Jeter off the team and replace him with a league average SS, the Yankees are still going to the playoffs. Replace Mauer with the league average catcher, and the Twins are losing 100 games.
Jon Locke, any idea why Morneau has so many RsBI? Here’s a hint, it might have something to do with the fact that he’s got Joe Mauer on base in front of him something like 45% of the time.
Just a question from an earlier post I saw…when did Yogi Berra play in the 1970’s?
Mauer IS in a playoff race.
I mean, come on. The main arguement against Mauer is that his team sucks. How is that fair?
it seems to me the core issue here is the philosophical interpretation of the term ‘most valuable player.’ we all agree mauer’s numbers are amazing and jeter and tex belong in the conversation at least, but really it comes down to the type of baseball fan you are.
if the writers are in fact human (as i assume they must be given the results in past years..) they will essentially create their own criteria for what being an MVP really means. i get that people here seem to think that because a player is the best he must be the most valuable but personally i do not agree with that assessment. and although you may think im silly for believing that, i also must believe some writers will also be silly with their votes.
mauer has the best stats, yes. and if you live by the stats then yes, he certainly will win. but if youre a believer in the intangibles of the game that cannot be quantified by simple division, you might find it a little harder to decide who gets your top vote. the writers are a mixed bag, probably like the people on the forum, so i think no matter what youre interpretation of the term ‘mvp’ is we can all agree this will be a very tight race.
I’m not so sure about giving the MVP trophy to a guy like Jeter. He’s too flashy and too concerned with individual achievements and big contracts.
There should be more players like Jim Rice.
Jim Rice for 2009 AL MVP.
I’d say on Aug 15th Mauer was a 90% lock to win AL MVP. Now I’d say its more like 85% creeping down towards 80%
Eric
August 31st, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Just a question from an earlier post I saw…when did Yogi Berra play in the 1970’s?
****
He didn’t. He was a coach/manager
Bob
August 31st, 2009 at 1:33 pm
If the Sox win the WC, I might give it to Jason Bay
He’s going to have 35 HRs, 120 RBIs, good defense etc.
——————————————————
And 1,155 strikeouts..
Mauer’s team is only 4.5 games back. If he get’s going again, he’ll win it.
You really think it’s easier to play in games that have no significance? I totally disagree. Eric Hinske came from the Pirates to the Yanees and went on a hot streak. Ditto with Bay to the Red Sox.
Some players on bad teams do better in pressure situations.
What does that mean? It means the player with the best numbers is most valuable.
true, its the BA that is pushing the Mauer MVP hype. if he finishes slumping to .330 and below Jeter with 30 hrs and 100 rbis does he still win it?
As a wise-man named A-Rod once said… you don’t look at Jeter as the guy you have to get out and that scares you. Bernie, O’Neal, Tino all scared you more.
How can you make the argument that performances on terrible teams are as “valuable” as performances in a pennant race? Have you ever looked up the meaning of the word?
–
It is easier for players on a good team to perform better because they have better players around them. It is a testament to Mauer’s ability to focus that has allowed him to continue to function on such a poor team.
And a good players performance on a good (in this case ‘pennant chasing/winning team’) team is less valuable because there are more good players around them. Jeter would not win the Yankees the pennant without A-rod, or Teixeira, or Matsui, or Swisher, or Cano, or Posada, or Sabathia, or Burnett, or Pettitte, or Hughes, etc.
Amatuer sports psychologists are the worst.
Eric
August 31st, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Just a question from an earlier post I saw…when did Yogi Berra play in the 1970’s?
I was wondering that also.
But it actually didn’t say anything about playing….just things Yogi was doing!
I think Yogi and Phil were doing a lot of bowling back then in Montclair!
The Twins are only in the playoff picture mathematically.
They are 65-65.. Average. Exactly what they should be.
You don’t give the MVP award to a good player on an average team.
“true, its the BA that is pushing the Mauer MVP hype”
What’s pushing Jeter’s?
Jeter is probably going to have like 45 XBHs… how is he an MVP?
Yeah he hits for a high average and scores runs because he has good hitters behind him, but he isin’t a scary offensive player.
“You don’t give the MVP award to a good player on an average team.”
No, but you oftentimes give the MVP to a GREAT player on an average team.
Tex has nice numbers but put Jeter in the 3 spot and what would his RBI numbers look like?
I believe Tex has been the most valuable Yankee. And his defense has been a major part of it.
MLB just announced a new Award for 2010:
The Player with the Best Focus Award!
Here are the current standings for “Guess the Line Up”.
After 26 rounds, there have been 67 different winners. Here are the participants with 3 wins or more:
Miggs – 8 wins – 7/23, 8/6, 8/11, 8/13, 8/18, 8/21, 8/25, 8/26
Ramey – 6 Wins – 7/22, 7/21, 8/6, 8/7, 8/11, 8/21
Andrew – 5 wins – 7/27, 8/6, 8/11, 8/21, 8/25
NYY626 – 5 wins – 8/4, 8/6, 8/7, 8/25, 8/28
RayVT – 4 wins – 8/5, 8/7, 8/21, 8/25
Upstate Kate – 4 wins – 8/6, 8/7, 8/21, 8/25
WTTALDS- 4 Wins – 7/24, 8/6, 8/11, 8/25
Yanksfan – 4 Wins – 7/28, 7/29, 8/6, 8/21
Benfica356 – 3 wins – 8/7, 8/25, 8/28
BlackAccord – 3 wins – 8/21, 8/25, 8/28
CM – 3 wins – 8/5, 8/6, 8/7
Henner – 3 wins – 7/27, 8/7, 8/25
Hokiehill – 3 wins – 7/22, 8/21, 8/25
Jon Locke – 3 wins – 8/5, 8/6, 8/28
NYYROC – 3 wins – 8/21, 8/25, 8/28
Patrick (the Prospect Hugger) – 3 Wins – 7/27,7/17, 8/7
Rob in VT. – 3 wins – 8/13, 8/21, 8/28
SA – 3 wins – 8/6, 8/7, 8/25
UnKnown – 3 wins – 8/17, 8/21, 8/26
YankeeRay – 3 Wins – 8/5, 8/6, 8/7
86w183- good lord. Insulting and ignorant is a really fun combination.
Obviously my deciding “most valuable” means “best” doesn’t make it so, but the fact that (a) that’s one of many permissible definitions and (b) I’ve shown that it’s the only REASONABLE definition for this context, with no coherent rebuttal from you, would tend to argue in my favor.
Here are a whole bunch of meanings of the word “valuable.” Tell me which one fits your definition and why it’s better than all the others:
http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/.....to_show=10
Now, one permissible definition of most valuable definitely suits your purposes: if a team doesn’t make the playoffs, they’re in the same position in October, so how “valuable” was he to them? But that’s ridiculously stupid if you spend more than five minutes thinking about it. We created this award to recognize one individual’s performance. Why does the performance of the rest of the team matter?
“Pressure” is one argument, I guess, but it’s a bad one. The Twins are still in contention, have been all year, and the games in May and June count just as much as the ones in September and October. Whatever slight adjustment you make for that isn’t going to be nearly enough to close the gap between Mauer and anyone else. Come up with your own “Mr. Clutch” award or something if you like; that’s just not what the MVP was intended to be about, and it makes no sense to make it such.
With the CY it’s the opposite. You CAN give the Cy Young to a pitcher on a crappy team because it’s THAT much more of an accomplishment. Example- Zack Greinke. If he wins 16 games, maybe he should win the Cy Young because he won 16 games IN SPITE of his team.
Mauer is batting .367 but isn’t valuable enough to get his team above .500. Of course a good player will look great playing on this Twins team. Him and Justin are a 2 man offense.
The Pedroia argument doesn’t make much sense.
Pedroia had almost twice as many extra-base hits as Jeter is projected to get. He also hit for a similar average. There were also no canidates last year. Carlos Quinten got hurt and fell off a cliff. Tampa didn’t have any one player. Angels didn’t have anyone etc.
It’s time for another thrilling round of “Guess the Line Up”
Post your line-ups to me here (or any new threads). Please make sure to include 9 players with positions. Remember, no revisions. Submissions until 3:30
Today is the last round of this season of “Guess the Line Up”. Tomorrow, we reset the statistics and I am passing the torch to Mr. Benfica356
I bet a lot of people in LA think Kendry Morales is the MVP.
Rex August 31st, 2009 at 1:58 pm
“You don’t give the MVP award to a good player on an average team.”
No, but you oftentimes give the MVP to a GREAT player on an average team.
_________
If there was no other candidates, I’d agree.
But that isn’t the case this year.
does anyone care that mauer faces some of the worst pitching that the AL has to offer? ..im asking this question cause i keep seeing a lot of “it doesnt matter what team their on..” talk. so im genuinely curious.
Time for GTLU?
SS my MVP Jete
LF Erica’s PBF
1B Tex
3B A-rod
DH Matsui
C Posada
2B Mr. RISP, yay Robbie
RF Swishalicious
CF Melky
going w/ the “A” line up to win the 1st game.
thanks Erica
Does he really, though? He hits in the same division as Greinke, Verlander, Jackson, Buerhle, Lee (for four months) pitch in… I mean, the AL Central has its share of stud pitching.
Several of you are missing the point — at least missing my point.
This is really a debate as to what valuable means to each voter — in our case vicarious voters. I think the inclusion of the word requires analyzing the context of the player’s performances. If you don’t that’s fine, but I believe the definition of valuable — which is a judgment word, not a factual one — requires it.
When under performing players do better on good teams it tells me they had lost interest where they were, not that it’s easier to perform under pressure. You may reach a different conclusion and that’s fine.
Mauer isn’t on a terrible team and he has an elite hitter behind him. He would get my vote if the season ended today. I’m just defending the idea that if you try to determine how valuable a player is you have to look at the impact his performances have on winning.
If they just awarded a “player of the year” then Mauer is a runaway winner. There must be a reason the award if given to the Most Valuable Player.
If you have ever played any competitive ball……..the players on a team know who their most valuable player is …sometimes it’s split between two players
If your a sabermetrician or worked with Bill James at the Stokely Van Camp pork and beans factory…you might have another opinion.
Erica-
Jeter SS
Swisher RF
Tex 1b
A-Rod 3b
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cano 2b
Melky CF
Hairston LF
Damon out with cramps yesterday, they’ll rest him today.
they do have a few good pitchers, but if they had more in the division (or on one team even) wouldnt more than one team be over .500?
thanks Erica for everything you have done this year. Here is my final lineup(Most likely) for the season.
SS Jeter
LF Damon
1B Tex
3B Arod
DH Mats
C Posada
2B Cano
RF Swish
CF Melky
Jeter SS
Swisher RF
Tex 1B
Rodriguez 3B
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cano 2B
Hinske LF
Cabrera CF
can someone please call those two idiots on WFAN right now and remind them what happened to “generation K” and their overworked arms? and that the yankees are 6 games up so they can do this with joba
“I bet a lot of people in LA think Kendry Morales is the MVP”
Morales is a pretty big argument against Teixeira winning it. For all the talk about “how do the Angles replace Teixeira in their lineup” they inserted Morales who will, like Teixiera, be a 30/100 guy with a 925+ OPS. If Tex is so valuable, how was he so easily replaced by a guy, who prior to this season, had 400 major league AB’s?
Again this doesn’t diminish the fine year Teixeira is having, but those numbers at 1st are just not as valuable as those numbers at other positions. That’s one of the reasons Arod won in 2003, when Delgado posted superior numbers.
If Mauer played for the Yankees would the national media be touting him as an MVP? No. And you know it.
Mauer is nothing more than The Great Non-Yankee Hope.
Greinke has actually been a more valuable player than anyone in either league (WAR of 7.5 to Mauer’s 6.4). If you are going to give the award to Mauer because of his perceived value, you have to consider Greinke as well, notwithstanding he is a pitcher and not close a wildcard run (which contributes to the low loss total). I just don’t see Mauer as more deserving than Greinke and think ultimately the award will go to a player that contributes to success for his team (Jeter, Tex or Zobrist).
Jeter SS
Swisher RF
Teixeira 1B
A-Rod DH
Posada C
Cano 2B
Hairston 3B
Hinske LF
Cabrera CF
Do any of you guys realize that Michael Youngs numbers are better than Jeters?
I still have Mark Texeria in the lead…….Miguel Caberra, Derek Jeter & then Mauer……Mariano Rivera is in the top 7……
Are you kidding? If Mauer played for the Yankees the voting would have been finsished already and Mauer would be having his MVP party.
“There must be a reason the award if given to the Most Valuable Player.”
Sure, they didn’t think that people would try to parse some convoluted definition out of the word valuable. Google MLB MVP criteria. It specifically says the winner need not come from a playoff team. The first criteria of five from 1931 was “Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.” Not strength of teammates. Not strength of intangibles. Strength of offense and defense, two things we can measure fairly well.
“does anyone care that mauer faces some of the worst pitching that the AL has to offer?”
And the Yankees don’t?????
Well, her is the Voting criteria given to those who vote for the MVP:
“Dear Voter:
“There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.
“The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:
“1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense. 2. Number of games played. 3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort. 4. Former winners are eligible. 5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.
“You are also urged to give serious consideration to all your selections, from one to 10. A 10th-place vote can influence the outcome of an election. You must fill in all 10 places on your ballot.
“Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, and that includes pitchers and designated hitters.
“Only regular-season performances are to be taken into consideration.”
Bill —
I assume you are referring to yourself since you are the one doing the insulting although I wouldn’t call you ignorant. I would call you arrogant since you have convinced yourself that your chosen definition of valuable is the only reasonable one in this context.
I never once lobbied for Jeter over Mauer.
I’m done. I’m outa here. Have a nice night
Joe Mauer is a great player. Not good, great. Right now, he is the prohibitive favorite to win the MVP, and rightfully so.
The Twins are an average team because they have bad starting pitching and bad middle relief.
Their best pitcher is Scott Baker – that’s not good. Wonder why their trying to get Rich Harden?
So stop saying that Mauer doesn’t make his team better, because they may not make the playoffs. Anyone who believes that is a fool.
He’s the best player in the American League, by a wide margin.
I’m going for the A line-up too because I like when my Andy gets a win
( plus, this is Girardi’s last day to be boring, seeing as tomorrow he will have the Sept call-ups to play with)
MVP (who better break the record at home) SS
Damon LF
Tex 1b
Alex 3b
Godzilla DH
Jorge C
Cano 2B
Swish RH
Melky CF
Rex August 31st, 2009 at 2:11 pm
“does anyone care that mauer faces some of the worst pitching that the AL has to offer?”
And the Yankees don’t?????
______________
This is a joke right? The Yankees are in the same division as Beckett, Lester, Halladay, Shields & Garza..
The Central has Grienke, Verlander..
Ok case closed..
Ha ha Beningo and Roberts going nuts about the Joba Rules.
86w183-I’m genuinely curious. What is “valuable” to you?
“Do any of you guys realize that Michael Youngs numbers are better than Jeters?”
No, they really aren’t. His slugging percentage is higher, but that’s offset by Jeter’s higher OBP (which is more valuable than slugging, so don’t just look at their OPSs), plus Jeter steals bases often and successfully, and he’s having a good defensive year at short while Young is having a bad one at third. You were saying, though?
It’ll either be Teixeira, Mauer or Morales…it’s going to be Mauer. It’s called the MVP, not the MVP if your team makes the playoffs.
yeah trevor, that’s what i’m saying. screech and the cranky old man.
Take Mauer off the Twins, Moreanu never sees a pitch to hit and they become the San Diego Padres.
Take Tex or Jeter off the Yankees, we’re still going to the playoffs. Maybe not comfortably ahead in the division, but still going to the playoffs fairly easily, either by division or WC.
plus he’s a freaking catcher!!!
“does anyone care that mauer faces some of the worst pitching that the AL has to offer?”
Mauer against AL East Teams this year
Yankees .345/.424/.690
Rays .500/.556/1.0
Sox .182/.286/.455
Orioles .353/.389/.353
is this the same derek jeter who is a defensive liability,(ha!) can’t play shortstop and is getting old? You go Derek !
“This is a joke right? The Yankees are in the same division as Beckett, Lester, Halladay, Shields & Garza..”
The Yankees get 19 games with the O’s and 15-16 vs. non-Halladay Jays starters. They’ve faced Smoltz, Penny & Tazawa. That argument is weak.
Here’s what I don’t understand about the new Joba Rules- I welcome opinions/facts:
If Joba is only throwing 30-40 pitches per “start”, won’t he lose the strength his arm has built up since he has been throwing 100ish all season. By the time the team gets to the playoffs, even if they need him to start and go distance (which probably won’t be the circumstance, but I digress)- won’t he be unable to?
Caveman subtract Teix, we’re not in the playoffs, his 101 RBIs, his defense at 1B. Red Sox would take this division.
Rex, good point on Morales…The swing in favor of Texeria, will be the Gold Glove…..Also Texeria carried the Yanks in June and into July…….Last season was a down season for MVP’s in my mind……This season is loaded with true worthy candidates…There’s a 1st baseman in Detroit who is having a great season…..Texeria is in the lead I believe…..Problem might be that Derek & Mark start splitting the votes
Erica, they aren’t taking him down to that level for the rest of the year; he’s going to rebuild during September.
Mauer’s hitting .355 vs the AL East
I think we’re in the playoffs if we subtract Tex. We may not win the division, but I still think we take the wild card.
Cave,
Agree. Even without Tex, we’re still going to the playoffs. Even if he went to Boston.
Texas or Tampa wouldn’t beat us out for the WC. Texas can’t even get out of their own way.
Erica,
Here is my line-up:
Derek SS
Swisher RF
Tex 1B
Alex 3B
Matsui DH
Posada C
Robbie 2B
Hairston LF
Melky CF
Thanks for hosting. It was fun.
The elusive MVP award will look good in the trophy room of the Captain’s new home currently under construction in Tampa.
We’re 9 games ahead of Texas in the loss column and won the season series.
I’m pretty sure we’d be in the playoffs even without Teixeria.
Rex August 31st, 2009 at 2:18 pm
“This is a joke right? The Yankees are in the same division as Beckett, Lester, Halladay, Shields & Garza..”
The Yankees get 19 games with the O’s and 15-16 vs. non-Halladay Jays starters. They’ve faced Smoltz, Penny & Tazawa. That argument is weak.
_________________
And Mauer and the Twins face 2 of the worst teams in the AL. The Os and Jays are much better than the Royals and Indians.
Not to mention once again that the Twins lost B2B series vs those 2 teams AT HOME in the middle of a “playoff chase”.
So lets give Mauer the MVP award and another long off season to go with it. He is so valuable he can’t will his team over .500 no matter how many singles he hits.
People forget that w/o Teix, Swishy would be our 1B if Teix weren’t here, love Al, but parts of this season him being relaxed not having to be superman is what helped him through. Swishy in 1B, that’d mean Melky in RF and Gardenhoser in CF, they both would have been worn out. Matsui would have to play more…alot of dominos here.
How many singles he hits? That’s a joke right?
How dare he not use the strength of his iron will to physically raise the performance of his pitchers! Curse him!
Give to MVP to Al
We were under .500 before he arrived…
Joe Mauer better enjoy all the attention he’s currently receiving.
The good thing is he only has one year left on his contract, so the Yanks can sign him to replace Jorge in 2011.
The bad thing is once he becomes a Yankee the national media won’t like him anymore.
Does pete like to be quoted in rob neyers sweetspot blog? I can almost guarantee neyer gets at this post by the end of the day
“He is so valuable he can’t will his team over .500 no matter how many singles he hits.”
Or doubles, or homers, or limited basestealers, or anything else he can actually control. Because it’s his fault Gomez and Crede make out more than a sorostitute at a kegger. The Twins have five (!) players who have gotten regular playing time at some point this season with an OBP under .300. But yeah, Joe Mauer simply didn’t will them to not suck. I’m sure that’s it.
“I think we’re in the playoffs if we subtract Tex. We may not win the division, but I still think we take the wild card.”
Well you can’t take away all the 30/100. If the 1B, for example, was Adam Laroche instead of Texeira, they probably still get 70% of that production (say 21/70 rather than 30/100). Are those 10 homers and 30 rbi the difference between being in the playoffs and not being in? Too many variables to say for sure, but it would be a little tighter almost certainly.
“Give to MVP to Al”
Yankee MVP- Maybe
League MVP- No
Jeter, Jeter all the way. It seems like he’s in the middle of everything. He’s partying (and playing) like it’s 1999.
Mauer is the best player. Second place is Jeter.
Tex is having a great year, but he’s basically having the same year as Morneau. The RBI’s are great, but too often, the award goes to “most RBI guy on best team”. That’s not the way the voting should go.
Tex’s defense has been stellar, but Jeter has played above average defense at a premium position.
I think there is a bit of hyperbole going on when people talk about the errors that Tex may have saved Jeter.
Another thing to remember, Jeter was robbed of the MVP in 2006, when he was the best player in the American League.
In 1999, he should have been the obvious choice other than Pedro, but both lost out to Pudge.
So he could get the “lifetime achievement award” vote – although he’s got an excellent case this year as the second best player in the league.
Still, as of right now, the choice should be Mauer.
“Give to MVP to Al
We were under .500 before he arrived…”
Yeh I know what you mean but it’s wierd this is the first time his statistics don’t say it but he’s been a big reason we’ve been winning and he’s been clutch. In big moments, vs BOSTON of all teams.
I highly doubt Cashman would have just stood still when Alex and Nady went down.
We’d probably have Rolen here or something. He would have been very aggressive if the offense was sputtering.
It’s going to be
1. Mauer
2. Teixeira
3. Morales
4. Cabrera
5. Jeter
Here’s who is in for today’s thrilling round of “Guess the Line Up” so far. Submissions until 3:30:
Upstate Kate, Benfica356, NYY626
WTTALDS
R-Tek
Rockks
Fran
“He is so valuable he can’t will his team over .500 no matter how many singles he hits.”
Or doubles, or homers, or limited basestealers, or anything else he can actually control. Because it’s his fault Gomez and Crede make out more than a sorostitute at a kegger. The Twins have five (!) players who have gotten regular playing time at some point this season with an OBP under .300. But yeah, Joe Mauer simply didn’t will them to not suck. I’m sure that’s it.
_______
I’m just proving the LOGICAL point that you don’t give the MVP award to a great player on a bad team.
Plently of players are having great years on bad teams.. Should we give the NL MVP to Mark Reynolds?
MVP should go to the Most Vaulable Player on a good team.. Because if the team sucks, then HOW VALUABLE can the person truly be? I’m not saying Mauer isn’t a great player. He just isn’t this years MVP. If his team was better and actually above .500, then you consider it.
It’s not fair to judge a player by his team? Life isn’t fair sometimes.. You just gotta face facts and deal with it.
“Give to MVP to Al
We were under .500 before he arrived…”
That’s the other argument against Teixeira. He didn’t start putting up big numbers til Rodriguez was slotted behind him.
“Should we give the NL MVP to Mark Reynolds?”
No, they should give to Pujols, who’s having a much better year.
“We’d probably have Rolen here or something. He would have been very aggressive if the offense was sputtering.”
Right cause TOR would have just given him away? your 3B was Cody Ransom or minor league filler, maybe he goes after Edwin Encarnacion or a Jose Bautista.. I doubt it would have been a name 3B.
What exactly is so bad about “stats”? Why do we hold it against players for having good “stats”? Aren’t stats the way we measure a players performance? I mean, given that there is a stat for just about everything a baseball player does on the field, precisely what is out there that “can’t be measured by stats?” (I understand that the defensive metrics oout there are not yet nearly as good as the offensive ones, but they certainly do a better job of helping us understand the percentage of chances players convert into outs than anything else).
Given this fact, wouldn’t the best player be the player with the best “stats”? What am I missing here? Since when did “feel” and “gut instinct” mean more than whether the guy helped his team produce a run or made an out instead?
Also, I just don’t understand the argument that a guy can’t be valuable if his team doesn’t make the playoffs. Do we honestly believe that the Twins would make the playoffs if we took away Mauer and added Jeter? I think there is no way we could think the Twins would be better of this year if they had Jeter instead of Mauer. (The fact that Mauer has a better WAR than Jeter even though he missed a month of the season is astounding).
Baseball isn’t basketball. One player cannot carry a team to the playoffs all by himself. If the MVP can only come from a playoff team, then the award should be changed to:
“Most Valuable Player Who Was Lucky Enough to Be On A Team That Would Still Be Pretty Good Without Him.”
Should we give the NL MVP to Mark Reynolds?
—
Possibly, if Albert Pujols was dead or encased in carbonite instead of being the best, most clutch guy ever all the time with amazing defense.
You take Jeter’s production out of this lineup, the Yankees aren’t making the playoffs.
Simple as that. People take Jeter for granted, because he’s been around for so long.
The reason the team didn’t make the playoffs last year was because the pitching staff was in shambles (Ponson, Rasner, etc.) and the team lost Jorge Posada, who is a great player despite the ramblings of many on this blog.
Jeter’s teams have made the playoffs all but one year since his rookie year in 1996. It’s easy to take him for granted.
Taking away a shortstop who is among the league leaders in batting average, .OBP, hits, runs, and steals would be a huge blow to this team.
What amazing under the radar yr. for Mark Reynolds, I mean srsly 40 HRs w/ no one looking at you, he’s like the RH Adam Dunn.
Jeter SS
Damon lf
Teixeira 1st
Arod 3rd
Hideki DH
Jorge C
Cano 2nd
Swish RF
Melky CF
What an amazing under the radar yr. for Mark Reynolds, I mean srsly 40 HRs w/ no one looking at you, he’s like the RH Adam Dunn.*
No, they should give the NL MVP to Hanley Ramirez.
There’s nothing “logical” about the “point” that the MVP can’t come from a non-pennant-winning team.
Why does Jeter deserve the MVP over Tex?
“You take Jeter’s production out of this lineup, the Yankees aren’t making the playoffs.”
Depends on who you’re replacing him with.
Jeter SS
Damon LF
Tex 1B
A-Rod 3B
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cano 2B
Swisher RF
Melky CF
I think that Jeter is a great, great player, but Tex is the MVP. He has changed this team. He made the entire infield better, making good to great plays every game at first. He has delivered one key hit after another as well.
If the Red Sox had landed Tex, they would be the team with the 6 game lead, if not more.
I think that Jeter has had a fine year and that he is on a great roll, but Tex is the MVP.
On a side note, don’t they have to make a roster move today, to place gardner on the 25 man roster, to ensure he is eligble for post-season play?
All of the above said, I think Pete is right that perception dominates for writers it comes to choosing the MVP. It shouldn’t, but it does.
Because of this, Captain Jetes will have a shot if they Twins don’t win the central or aren’t pretty damn close to doing so.
But, Pete, I think you don’t have to be sheep and follow your brethren on this one. Your point that the season isn’t over yet is a good one. If Jeter dominates September and Mauer falls apart, by all means vote Jete. (Again, I’d be ecstatic if he won it).
But if things look at the end of the season like they do today, Vote Mauer. His hitting performance hasn’t just been better than everyone else, its been head and shoulders better. And he’s a great defensive catcher to boot.
Think of how valuable we view Jose Molina simply because he plays great defense. Imagine that with an almost Pujols-ian OPS. That’s actually crazy. Jose Molina’s defense at catcher with a near Pujolsian bat. That’s wat Mauer has been this season. That’s an MVP season. (Provided he keeps it up).
There is no reason to be so entrenched at this moment – we have a month to go. Having said that, I’m on Team Jeter.
Brandon Awesome “BECAUSE I’M AWESOME!!!”
August 31st, 2009 at 2:30 pm
It’s going to be
1. Mauer
2. Teixeira
3. Morales
4. Cabrera
5. Jeter
****
I am willing to bet $100 its not those five in that order. Are we on?
“I’m just proving the LOGICAL point that you don’t give the MVP award to a great player on a bad team.”
No, you’re doing nothing of the sort. You called someone with a .608 a singles hitter. You have done nothing to show that the Twins’ plight is in any way Mauer’s fault. His teammates suck beyond belief. Why, again, should this be held against him?
This isin’t even Teixeria’s best year
He is not going to match his .301/43/144 line from 2005.
He might not even match his 121 RBI total from last year unless he has a hot September.
He may also have the lowest or 2nd lowest BA of his career.
His yr is not that impressive…
You take Jeter out of the lineup, and at worst, they’re in a tie with Boston and still 3 1/2 up on the wildcard. People have crazy ideas of how valuable one single player can be.
Since when are MVP awards based on what a player does only after July 1? You’re deliberately manipulating the statistics to favor Jeter.
prime
August 31st, 2009 at 2:38 pm
On a side note, don’t they have to make a roster move today, to place gardner on the 25 man roster, to ensure he is eligble for post-season play?
***
No because he is on the 40 man, and he was on the 25 man earlier in the season.
Sept callups have made the post season roster before. I believe Jose Veras and Edwar Ramierez are more recent examples in 2007
“You take Jeter’s production out of this lineup, the Yankees aren’t making the playoffs.”
You can’t say that, he’s a table setter, a decent leadoff guy a clip of .330-.340 OBP% and you still make the playoffs. Now take Mark Teixeira off the Yankees, who’s at 1B? if it’s Swishy who’s in RF… and remember you just took away 101 RBIs from the middle of the lineup.
.608 slugging percentage, that is.
Jeter
Damon
Tex
Arod
Matsui
Posada
Cano
Swisher
Melky
Take Teixeira out of the lineup and their lead is 2 games instead of 6.
Tyler- You MUST post positions
“What exactly is so bad about “stats”?’
Nothing……..but as Captain Barbossa said: “the code is more what you’d call “guidelines” than actual rules”!
Miguel Cabrera is incredibly underrated. He didn’t even make the all star game.
Best arguement for this is how horrible Giambi was last season, just horrible, imagine replacing Teix w/ him.
Erica thanks for doing guess the lineup all this time. It won’t be the same without you. Last guess ever:
SS Jeter
RF Swisher
1B Teixeira
3B Rodriguez
DH Matsui
C Posada
2B Cano
LF Hairston
CF Cabrera
“Take Teixeira out of the lineup and their lead is 2 games instead of 6.”
Another words we still win our games and break even w/ Boston, I don’t think so.
Kevin S. August 31st, 2009 at 2:39 pm
“I’m just proving the LOGICAL point that you don’t give the MVP award to a great player on a bad team.”
No, you’re doing nothing of the sort. You called someone with a .608 a singles hitter. You have done nothing to show that the Twins’ plight is in any way Mauer’s fault. His teammates suck beyond belief. Why, again, should this be held against him?
_________________________
HE IS A SINGLES HITTER. I don’t care that he had an outburst this season and has 27 HRs. If you have ever watched him play, he just looks to hit. It just so happens that he had a little thing going this season and was able to hit for power. It’s not intentional though.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/pl.....TvPV6FCLcF
It should be held against him because he doesn’t deserve any award for being on a team at .500. Most Valuable Player. Mauer is more valuable than Texiera or Jeter??
Explain to me, in your logic, how someone on a .500 should win the MVP of the league when his team will be on a beach somewhere in October?
I think that only works if you are on the 60-day DL, which I would assume Gardner is not. From what I’ve read, you have to be on the 25-man roster on August 31 to be eligible for post-season play? Not sure about Veras, I know Edwar was up before Sept that year.
Mauer doesn’t play as many games as Jeter – as of today, Jeter has 124 games played/582 plate appearances, while Mauer has 105 games played/464 plate appearances. And of Mauer’s 105 games, in only 84 has he played catcher, the rest as a DH, while Jeter has played 122 games at shortstop.
You have to account for that in judging the MVP – in the games Mauer isn’t playing, he is not helping his team. And in the games where he is the DH he is less valuable to his team than when he is catching.
When you adjust for time played, Mauer and Jeter are much closer than they at first appear. So much so, that I think it’s fair to look at other factors you think important to distinguish between them.
Without Tex in the lineup and Swish at first, please – we aren’t sniffing first place. That doesn’t mean I would necessarily vote him the MVP, but it’s ridiculous how people are diminishing the year he’s had.
Brandon,
Sorry, but you’re just wrong. Jeter is the best table setter in the American League this year.
Replace him with WHO at shortstop? Ramiro Pena? LOL.
There are no options.
No one’s doubting Tex’s contribution to the team, what he’s meant defensively. And he gave the team a much needed bat in the middle of the lineup, especially with the departure of Abreu.
Swisher at first would be a dropoff from Tex, but the dropoff from Jeter to well, whoever, would be so drastic, that it would be a crippling blow to the team.
If Tex hadn’t signed here, it would have been much easier for Cashman to find a first base bat then it would be to find a replacement for Jeter.
It’s amazing that a catcher hitting .351 after the All Star break can be counted AGAINST him in an MVP discussion…
As with 2006, Jeter’s candidacy may be determined by the Twins making the playoffs. Their late surge in 2006 catapulted Morneau over a Jeter (who was relatively idle that late in the season, thanks to Boston’s collapse at Fenway Park).
Wave Your Hat, WAR does that and still rates Mauer as being half a win better, while not factoring in his defense (but factoring in Jeter’s).
Aww- thanks Andrew. I will tell benfica356, to be bossy like me
LOL
The Yankees MVP is Phil Hughes. He solidified the bullpen. Without him the bullpen would still be a mess and the Yankees wouldn’t be in first place.
Ok so things are close since the start of July. But May and June count as well:
May 1 through July 1:
Jeter batted .317/.396/.447/.843
Mauer batted .383/.455/.662/1.117
Umm, so yeah…Jeter has quite a ways to go still.
The only real valid argument against Mauer is that he missed April. Aside from that one big negative, he has blown away the competition, including Jeter.
“Replace him with WHO at shortstop? Ramiro Pena? LOL. ”
You do know El Nino is better than him defensively? right?
Anyway if you replace Jetes (thank god this never happens) but if you replace him at the top of the lineup w/ a say .270 hitter w/ an OBP% of .330 – .360 they still have a lead in the AL East. If you take Teix out they are prbly a few games back from the AL East and struggling w/ offensive production.
Mauer has more HRs than jeter and he has a ton less games. So even with less games he provides more than Jeter. Also who are the Twins going to replace JOE MAUER WITH!? He has more RBIs, almost as many doubles, more HRs, same amount of walks, less strike outs. Mauer is ridiculous!
The difference between Mauer and another catcher > Difference between Jeter and another short stop.
Mauer is over rated and plays in a homer dome !
Jeter is now actually in striking distance of leading the league in hits (9 off Ichiro) a few weeks ago the lead seemed insurmountable
Why is anyone even entertaining john locke. He used the word logic and Mark Reynolds for MVP in the same sentence. Either he has no idea what logic means or he is just trolling for responses. Mauer is the MVP because he is the best player/most valuable/player every gm picks to start a team around/whatever someone wants to make the MVP award about. Why do we even care let Mauer win the MVP and Jeter and Teix get the ring.
Mauer will finish the season at .340 and his team will continue to sink in the very competitive AL Central.
Just another player having a great year on a bad team.
YAWN
MVP=
Most Valuable Player on a Contender
Answer- Derek Jeter or Mark Teixera. It’s very debatable.
new thread
No MORE LINE UPS HERE
There needs to be at least two awards. Best player & MVP. One player could win both but the MVP needs to come from a team that makes the post season. That is “valuable”.
In Tex’s case, the argument could easily be made that the Yanks would miss the post season if he were playing elsewhere, particularly Boston. Horrible thought I concede, but possibly the same goes for Jeter. (Sorry CaveMan)
The Twins will probably miss the post season regardless of where Mauer is playing.
If these scenarios play out, Mauer’s #s might make him the “best player”, but not the “most valuable”.
WAR, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing!!!
Kevin S-
I know. But in my mind, half a win is very close. Close enough to allow you to take other variables into account, like success of team (if you want to).
Chris V. August 31st, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Why is anyone even entertaining john locke. He used the word logic and Mark Reynolds for MVP in the same sentence. Either he has no idea what logic means or he is just trolling for responses.
______________
Either you are illiterate or don’t understand sarcasm..I’m gonna say both, because I said NO SUCH THING.
Either way, nobody asked you.. Unless you have something to counter my points with, go away.
Yeah I’m trolling on a YANKEE board.. A board I post on everyday.. And Defending Jeter over Mauer for MVP. If I was a troll, wouldn’t it be the other way around?
Gee another winner.
Jerkface-
If you want to argue with stats first go to fangraphs and take a look at the different ways of calculating the overall value of Mauer and Jeter. Once games played and positional value (Mauer playing so often at DH) are taken into account, Mauer and Jeter are close.
Close enough so I’m not outraged by taking other things into consideration, such as Jeter not winning when he should have once or twice before, the Twins not making the playoffs, etc.
I think alot of the people who were saying “Mauer is the MVP” were also saying “right now” or “if the season ended today”.
I don’t recall a lot of people saying stuff like “it has to be Mauer even if he gets hurt tomorrow”
Not that many people understand how gravity really works either, but that doesn’t mean that you can jump really hard and fly to the moon.
I hate the argument about MVP having to come from a playoff team. I am a beliver in what’s written as the rules. The rules don’t say it – it shouldn’t be part of the discussion.
Pitchers should win the award more frequently for the same reason. Last time I looked, the MVP rules didn’t state anything about “discounting pitchers because they have their own award”
Starting pitchers pitch once every 5 days. On that day, I’d argue, they are 5 times more valuable than anyone else on the field. Any pitcher getting considered for MVP is so valuable on the day he pitches that it counterbalances the days when he does not.
Cliff Lee last year is a perfect example. Last year he was 22-3.
The Indians were 81-81.
That means in games not decided by Cliff Lee, the Indians wewre 19 games over .500.
I don’t care if the Indians didn’t make the playoffs. Cliff Lee was more valuable to his team than any other player in baseball last year. The idea that he wouldn’t get it because “they have their own award” is a joke.
Obviously I meant 19 games under .500. That’s what happens when you type while ranting lol!
The idea that what a guy like Mauer is doing is any less valuable than Jeter/Teixeira because his team won’t make the postseason is crazy.
This is the difference. Mauer has 24 teammates who are collectively mediocre. THat’s why his team isn’t playing in the postseason.
Jeter has 24 teammates who are collectively awesome. That’s why the Yanks have the best record in baseball. Because of the team, not just one guy.
Same argument for Teixeira.
Joe Mauer’s owners didn’t go out and spend over 300 million dollars for Sabathia and Teixeira. They didn’t spend 300 million on ARod. Those are hugely important reasons as to why the Yanks are making the postseason. Ownership and the fonr toffice make it their endless desire to feidl as strong a 25-man roster a spossible. The Twins have a trio of great players (Mauer, Monreau, Nathan) but not much else.
What Mauer is doing is extremely valuabvle to his team. It’s not his fault that his teamamtes are much crappier than CC Sabathia and Alex Rodriguez and AJ Burnett and Robinson Cano and Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui and Deek Jeter and Mark Teixeira, etc. I cannot understand why lots of people don’t understand that simple concept.
While Jeter is having a phenomenal year, I wouldn’t even consider him the MVP of the Yankees.
Mark Texeira, who now has more than 100 RBIs, has been clutch all year. Not to mention, Texeira has been unbelievable at first base. He has made game changing plays defensively as well as offensively. He is a landslide favorite to win the gold glove and he has helped Jeter and Cano look like potential gold glove candidates as well.
sorry about all the typos
What I’m saying is, there is a good chance that Teixeira will win the MVP because of the Hrs and RBIs and playing on a postseason team. But the main reason he is going to win it over mauer is because Mark’s 24 teammates are completely superior to Mauer’s 24 teammates. And that’s obviously a stupid reason to give someone an MVP, and I don’t understand why most people can’t see this.
Individual stats are not the only considerations for MVP. The over all impact a player has on the overall success of his team and its complete accomplishments should weigh heavier than the stats.Unless of course there is such a difference that making an argument just is not possible. Not so the case between DJ and Mauer at the moment anyway.
Why are people making MVP cases by only listing Avg/HR/RBI? Aside from the many problems with using all of those statistics, it only covers offense. We are not looking for the Most Valuable Hitter. We are looking for the Most Valuable Player. Thus, we have to look at defensive performance and account for the value in playing a premium defensive position (C, SS)
Here is the best way to determine the Most Valuable Player. At the end of the 2009 season look over all of the numbers. Now, imagine it were the beginning of the 2009 season and you were drafting/building a team JUST for 2009. Imagine also that you had the foresight to know exactly how each player would produce in the upcoming season. Who would/should be the first player taken?
The answer to that question is the MVP.
Why are people making up definitions of valuable by saying the player must be on a playoff-bound team? I can make a fake argument the other way. The most valuable player is the superstar on the terrible team that still convinces fans to show up to the park? How’s that for a false criterion?
The MVP does not have to be from a contender… that’s ludicrous. The most productive player over a season is the most valuable because the player can only control so much. He will, at best, get up 11% of the time, and doesn’t pitch. Defining a team’s success based upon one player’s performance is absurd.
If Jeter weren’t on the Yankees, they would still make the playoffs. The Yankees have a 9.5 lead in the playoff race this year. So let’s see how this works out.
A team of replacement level players (20% worse than league average player, paid league minimum salary) is expected to win 48 games in a season. You can look it up, the math is out there.
At 68% through the season, that means a replacement-level team of scrubs are expected to win 32.6 games. We’ll say 32.
The Yankees have won 82 games thus far, so that’s 50 games more than a team of replacement level scrubs.
Now, if we wouldn’t make the playoffs without Jeter, that means he’s worth at least 10 wins more than a replacement level scrub. So that closes the gap to only 40 wins.
What about the remaining 24 guys on the team? Everyone is saying that we wouldn’t be in the playoffs without Teixeira, so is he 10 also? How many wins was Arod worth? posada? cano?
Oh, and let’s not forget about pitching. Clearly Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte, Joba, Hughes, Aceves, and Rivera are all better than replacement level scrubs, right? So how many wins are they worth?
And I’m sure Swisher Damon and Matsui are all well above minimum-salaried guys, so how many wins are they worth?
The point is that people are overestimating the effect that any one player can have on a team. That’s why places like fangraphs have Wins Above Replacement (WAR) metrics.
Some other numbers to be considered in the MVP AL!
JETER MAUER
Runs 93 (3th) 77 (17th)
Hits 175 (2th) 149 (12 th)
SB 23 (12th) 3 (89th)
Of course that position in the line-up changes the numbers, like RBI and Runs.
I just try to demonstrate that numbers can be manipulated.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Mauer and I hope that the Yankees sign him whem he became a FA.
But be a MVP is much more what you bring to the team.
And Jeter, being the captain, using the bunt, …, all the little things that he brings to the field had to be considered.
Is that why that people vote in the MVP and not a computer analyzing data.
If I had a vote, I didn’t know today which would be.
But since the Yankees overtake the RS Jeter has played unbelievable baseball. I have so much fun watching him.
Jeter needs to have a September similar to his August and needs Mauer to have a relatively poor month and the Twins to miss the playoffs.
Mauer is definitely the favorite right now (and rightfully should be), but Jeter still has a decent chance.
Although as always the MVP race will likely be decided by who gets hyped up the most. Last year Pedroia shouldn’t have even been in the discussion, but was hyped up by a few people and basically stole the award. Granted the competition was as weak as its ever been, but that was easily the worst MVP selection in some time. Worse than picking Morneau over Jeter in 2006 when Derek should’ve ran away with it.
I think Melky has the most pies earned. Mvp has to go there. DJ no pies? Tex the same? I think anyway. Melky hands down. Then again that could all be wrong. My memory is less than MVP.
I researched this last night and decided then that Jeter just HAS to be the MVP. He’s in the top 5 for SS in every offensive category for the AL. He’s number 1 in the majors in hits and runs for SS. He’s the number one SS in the majors, hands down, especially with his much improved defense this season. Tex has been good, but his offensive numbers don’t impress that much when compared to other first basemen. Jeter IS the MVP.
A few thoughts:
1. There is a month left. Why are we anointing the MVP now? Are we going to hype a new candidate every other week like idiots?
2. Anyone using RBIs in their argument should just be ignored. It’s not 1985 anymore. Intelligent people recognize they’re a product of opportunities, not skill and certainly don’t measure value.
3. The MVP is the Best Player Award. It’s ridiculous to believe that in a team sport to use a team’s W-L when measuring an individual’s value. By definition the best player is contributing the most value to his team, so it shouldn’t matter if his teammates suck.
My pick is Mauer. His combination of power and contact skills in a catcher has never been seen before and he has to be rewarded for it.
And since when did we start giving out MVP awards based on random cutoffs like July 1st that fat sportswriters choose only because it gives them a better story?
Holy crap, Mauer is on a 5-for-25 slump?! What a bum. Jeter went on a 4-for-26 skid from Aug 4 to Aug 8, but of course the Yankees went 5-0 during that span. I’m sure Jeter is the single key to New York’s success, though.
Pedroia wasn’t as undeserving as everyone thinks. He rated out gread defensively at one of the premium positions and hit very well, especially for 2B. Is he a perfect fit for Fenway Park? Of course, so kudos to Boston for realizing that.
The only position players that played in the AL last season that had higher WAR numbers were Manny and Teixeira, but neither played for a full season in the AL and so they wouldn’t win it. As a result, it was a weak year for MVP
2008 top 5 non-pitchers in the AL in WAR
1. Pedroia 6.6
2. Sizemore 6.3
3. Markakis 6.2
4. Arod 6.0
5. Mauer 5.9 (should be higher when factoring D)
Both Halladay (7.6) and Cliff Lee (7.3) had higher WAR numbers, but writers don’t like giving the MVP award to pitchers for some discriminatory reason. Since all catchers are considered the same per UZR, and most rate Mauer as a great defensive catcher, then a claim could be made for the award among position players. But Pedroia had a claim all the same.
Now looking at 2006, Jeter had a great season. But I don’t know why people think he was the MOST deserving. Again, non-pitchers in WAR in the AL
1. Sizemore 7.5
2. Jeter 6.3
3. Hafner 6.1
4. Mauer 6.1 (should be higher when factoring D)
5. C Guillen 6.0
Pedroia was definitely deserving, but only because there was little competition for the award last year. This year there are 5 or 6 guys putting up far better numbers than he did.
What’s amazing is how undeserving Morneau was.
He finished 17th among position players in the AL in 2006 with a WAR of 4.4.
Worth 3 fewer wins than Sizemore. Unreal. In monetary terms, Sizemore was worth $27.8 million and Morneau was worth $16.5 million and yet Morneau won the MVP.
Unfortunately, writers are archaic idiots looking still at stats like RBI (product of having good hitters in front of the high-RBI guy) and HR (I guess writers don’t care what the batter does in the other several hundred ABs).
Excluding Manny, Morneau finished 12th in weighted On-Base Average, the single best offensive metric available. Scaled to OBP, it gives run-value weights to types of hits. Much, much better than OPS.
He finished 12th!!! while playing the weakest position on the field. Excluding other 1B and DH (Hafner, Thome, Giambi, Ortiz, Konerko and frank Thomas), there were 5! players that had higher wOBA than Morneau while playing much harder defensive positions inclding 1 catcher (Mauer), 2 SS (Jeter, Guillen) a 3B (Arod) and an OF (Dye).
Unbelievable.
WAR factors in fielding, by the way.
These comments are hilarious. Mauer is the MVP, and it’s not close. Allow me to quote from the ACTUAL BALLOT that voters receive:
“The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.”
Forty-seven out of the 77 total MVPs in history have come from non-playoff teams. Well, there goes your argument.
The worst analysis in this thread was by far from Jon Locke. It’s so awful that I just had to type this and not even continue reading. It is amazing to me that certain people think they are so smart at understanding baseball, come and post here every day, but argue for MVP based on the “other” 24 guys on a team (winning record, playoff team), RBI’s (wow, just awful), and batting average (read a stat book). How can someone vote for an MVP based on completely stupid things like “intangibles,” when 90% of the people who vote don’t know the majority of candidates, don’t see their effect on their teammates firsthand, and have no idea their day to day contribution. The only way to fairly quantify players is the stats that are widely used by smart people who understand baseball. If you argued for the MVP coming from a playoff team, find another sport to root for. I know this is harsh, but I’m saving you embarrassment at a later point in life. Mauer is far and away the most deserving candidate for MVP. Anyone who doesn’t vote for him should have their privileges revoked. That simple. Baseball players are not as valuable to their team as other sports. It’s not even close. Taking Teix or Jeter off this team doesn’t change the yankees as a playoff team. You don’t just say “that’s 101 RBI’s gone.” No, it’s not. Another quality player, if given the opportunity with the same hitters on base in front of him, could produce similar results. Teix is the big, shiny, new power hitter on a playoff team that missed the postseason the year before he got here. That is clouding the majority of your judgements with the Teix argument, since that assumes the other 24 players produced the exact same results in the exact same environment. Use the stats. They are your friend. Most of you, including myself, aren’t smart enough to try and figure out the value of other things. We don’t have the information available to us to evaluate those other things. You can make it right, Pete. Make the smart choice and don’t be an RBI-loving sportswriter sheep.
Derek Jeter is a shortstop!?!?