Jobamania not running so wild these days
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Sep 04, 2009 
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Joe Girardi said after the game that Joba Chamberlain was aggressive with his fastball. That the Blue Jays aggressively slapped that fastball all over the Rogers Centre seemed sort of beside the point to him.
And so it goes. Joba would be the No. 4 starter in the postseason by default at this point, not merit. He is 1-3 with a 7.96 ERA in his last six starts. Opponents have hit .330 against him.
“I still really believe in him and I think at the end of September you’re going to see a guy throwing the ball well,” Girardi said. “We have to get him back to where he was and we believe what we’re doing is going to get him back there. What we’re doing right now isn’t going to last forever.”
Joba resorted to a bunch of cliches when we talked to him, talking about his teammates and executing pitches and how good the guys on the other team are. I spoke to him alone briefly and asked him whether he could get sharp again come October.
“There’s time,” he said. “I’ll go four innings the next game and we’ll go from there. I know I have things to work on.”
It’s easy to forget that Chamberlain is 23 because he has been with the Yankees for parts of three seasons now. So he deserves the benefit of the doubt. But because he has been around for those three seasons, inexperience becomes less of a crutch. He has been around enough to know that what he is doing now isn’t getting it done.
It’s easy to say that any starter would have lost to Roy Halladay tonight. But that isn’t the point. The idea was to see improvement and it wasn’t there. Don’t focus on the runs or the misplays in the field, focus on the quality of Toronto’s swings and that Joba had only four pitches that produced a swinging strike. Two were by past-his-prime Kevin Millar.
The Yankees are protecting Joba because they believe in how good he can be. He needs to return the favor by being that guy.
Meanwhile …
Ramiro Pena is 2 for 6 against Halladay in his career with two doubles. He must wonder what the big deal is. … Mike Dunn walked both of the lefties he faced in his debut. Not good. But he gets a pass for being nervous in his debut. … A-Rod had a 12-game hit streak snapped. … The dope fans here in Toronto booed Eric Hinske. “They traded me away,” he said. “What did I do wrong?”
Finally, I will leave you with this. The visiting team clubhouse here has a computer with several thousand songs on it and the players often load up their iPods. Alfredo Aceves plucked a bunch of songs by the Bee Gees before the game.
“What is this stuff?” Dunn asked.
Aceves explained that his father, Mexican League slugger Alfredo Aceves Sr., listened to a lot of music from the 60s and 70s when he was playing and introduced his children to it. Ace, as it turns out, is a big fan of the Brothers Gibb and Creedence Clearwater Revival.
So the 26-year-old reliever from Mexico like disco and John Fogerty. You never know what you’re going to learn on a given day.
Thanks for reading, catch you tomorrow from Toronto.
How old is dunn that he doesn’t know the bee gees?
The Thunder lost a heartbreaker tonight. Recap and photos:
http://www.puristbleedspinstri.....eaker.html
Great stuff, Pete! That line by Dunn is killing me. “What is this stuff?” When you asked about the importance of throwing strikes did he respond, “What is this stuff?”
Where’s pat?
Good things:
-Boston got spanked
-Boston dropped a game to the Rangers
-Another game off the calendar
-Dunn finally made his debut (trying real hard here)
-Jeter & Hughes got resty, resty
m
Magic number to Paul O’neill! 21
Jennifer,
Amazing, isn’t it?
What a difference a year makes.
Blue Jay fans are a pretty clueless bunch. You boo a player that was traded?
And tomorrow with any luck we’ll be down to
Dave Righetti
Was out all night. Saw nothing of the game at all. Don’t have time to go through the game threads. Saw 4-0 Jays as I skimmed Pete’s update. So, I’m thinking, Joba was awful and they lost? How many innings for Joba? What was the final score?
Doreen,
Thanks so much for the shout out about GTLU. I have made that observation too. I am really glad I helped in that respect, although it was an accidental perk of starting GTLU.
And I do think Pete is a fan
Pete’s definitely a fan, Erica!
So, tonight was a stinker, then? Haliday was on his game?
And okay, so Dunn doesn’t know who the Bee Gees are, but doesn’t he have PARENTS??!! My kids know everything my husband and I know as far as music goes. They may or may not LIKE it, but they are familiar with it.
Mike Dunn is 24 years old. I am 28 and I know many, many Bee Gees songs. Age is no excuse to not know “Stayin Alive” at the very least. The only acceptable excuse to not knowing that song is actually living in a cave.
Then again, I am the only 28 year old I know who has seen John Fogerty in concert so maybe I am an exception
Giambino doing it in Denver.
Oops. Was on the wrong thread.
Listing Joba’s win-loss record’s a little unfair, Pete. 2 of his losses were aborted starts under the Revised Joba Rules.
Joba’s the Rubik’s Cube of the Yankees right now. It’s going to take a lot of manipulation to solve him.
Hopefully, Joba can take some lessons from the season which is a long grind that young pitchers are unprepared to deal with.
Joba doesn’t need to throw 97 to be successful. Halladay doesn’t do it. Aceves doesn’t do it. But they know how to pitch.
The Big G does it again!
Erica -
Mike Dunn has no excuse! You’re right. At the very least he should be familiar with the Saturday Night Fever Bee Gees. That’s classic. Pre-SNF is die-hard, though, I’ll admit. (Or simply old
)
So I went back to the last thread and started scrolling from latest to earliest and made it about 10 back and decided to quit. Just chalk this one up to Halliday deciding to show the world he can still pitch against the best lineup in MLB and to please try and trade for him this off-season.
Joba is another story…a lost season maybe? Or not really, because at least he got his innings in. I wouldn’t count on him to make an impact in the post-season though. He’s lost.
For giggles, I’d like to see Joba throw to Cervelli. Any port in a storm.
Pete, we always boo Eric Hinske when he comes back to town. What did he do wrong? He was a marginal rookie of the year, got signed to a big (relatively-speaking) contract, and then proceeded to both get injured and stink the joint out for the rest of the time that he was here. Management has to take some of the blame for the contract, but Hinske was a low effort player, which made his play look that much worse.
“Alfredo Aceves plucked a bunch of songs by the Bee Gees before the game.”
I knew I loved Ace for a reason. I love the Bee Gees! Long live disco!!
Who doesn’t like CCR?
I am not making excuses for Joba by any means. He was stinky tonight. Thanks a fact-
But is it possible the revised Joba rules are messing with his head? I would think if you are entering the game as a starter but know you are going to be yanked after 3 innings, there is an almost automatic let down before even entering the game.
When a starter normally enters the game, there is adrenaline pumping as he knows that he has the chance to do something magical. Every starter enters with the goal of pitching a great game and wanting to go as long as possible. So when Joba enters the game knowing he is only going 3 or 4 innings, he already knows there will be no magic for him. There is probably less adrenaline, and an almost certain let down.
Anyway, these are just my thoughts. But again, I want to emphasize I am not making excuses. He knew his job was to throw strikes tonight. He did not accomplish that.
Wow. That might be my longest post ever about something actually baseball related
Trisha-
Mail to you tomorrow morning
Doreen-
Pre-SNF Bee Gees are actually my favorite Bee Gee songs. Songwriting doesn’t get much better than “Words”
Erica,
Unh, unh (sp?). No way.
Coney was talking about it in Joba’s last “start”.
He said starting pitchers get a rush, and that their whole routine is geared toward pitching on that 5th day.
And, get this, he said. It’s an honor to take the ball as part of the rotation. And that Joba should be honored that the Yankees are (paraphrasing here) going through all this trouble for him. Of course he said it in his nice mid-western way.
Erica -
I think there is something to that. It’s a limbo season for Joba. Neither here nor there. But the Yankees are doing special things anyway. So, we can write it off, and hope that next year will be better. I’m not upset. With all these “rules” and restraints, it’s too much. He’s a kid. My daughter is 22. My nephew is 25. Joba is right in the middle. We have such high expectations and they are warranted, but we need to temper it a little.
Joba is fine he is a young pitcher he is going to have some growing pains. This is his first full year as a starter. Did people expect Joba never to struggle in the majors? The main goal for Joba is just too hit his innings so next year he will be a normal starter.
There really isn’t much of a mystery.
Joba hasn’t been the same since the shoulder injury.
It’s not really that complicated.
Sean Boulton-
So why are your fellow fans so ignorant to visiting teams,AY-
m -
It’s too late, obviously, but perhaps the hype machine for Joba was amped up just a little too high?
Anyway, right now all the Yankees are doing is managing his innings, making sure he gets to a certain point, and gets there healthy. As far as Joba is concerned, I’ve turned a corner. It’s all about the future, and not now as far as productivity is concerned. If they get a good start out of him, it’s great, but thankfully, they don’t seem to actually need that.
Erica, I swear to God that I was just walking around the house doing a few things and thinking about the same kinds of things you posted above. There is no way we can get into individual players heads to know what is going on there. But we know that Joba is an excitable kid. He knows he’s on a pitch count. That may discombobulate him enough to cause him to overthrow, etc. in an effort to make the best of his several innings. He cannot get into a good rhythm because he knows he’s on a time clock.
By the way, I don’t think of those things as excuses. They are reasons. Yes his job is to throw strikes. But if at the age of 23 he can’t really get into the groove he needs to, I don’t consider it highly unusual.
Again, I’d like to see him throw to Cervelli – or Molina. Maybe it would do no good; maybe they could find a way to calm him down a bit. In any event, I am a big believer in going back to the drawing board when things are working since I don’t believe in taking no for an answer. That is one way of going back to the drawing board.
Should have read: In any event, I am a big believer in going back to the drawing board when things AREN’T working since I don’t believe in taking no for an answer.
m
I’m here. Good job by you on good things. I struggled finding things in a 1 hitter with the Scranton rotation pitching and before the Sox/Sox game went final.
Decided to iron school uniforms tonight after the game as my own personal celebration that school starts next week and my house gets back to somewhat normal. Now that’s a good thing!
I’m not impressed with anyone going to the NL and perfominig well. Wha it is.t a retirement center
Very quiet around here, no?
Doreen
It’s too late, obviously, but perhaps the hype machine for Joba was amped up just a little too high?
___
Before the shoulder injury, as a starter, his FB was averaging 95+ and maxing out at 98+. He deserved the hype. Something is obviously wrong.
The “hype machine” for Joba wasn’t created by the Yanks.
It was created by the media and fans.
All the Yanks wanted from Joba was an extra arm in the bullpen in 2007 to help them out in the stretch run.
They had no idea he was going to explode into some phenomenon.
But they’ve also had big plans for him since his major league debut. They’ve said all along that the want him to be a starter long term.
Unfortunately, the shoulder issue last year cut his season short and now we have to deal with all the Joba Rules nonsense.
We’re going to have to live with very similar “Hughes Rules” next season due to the decision to leave him in the pen this season.
And guess what? He’s going to struggle at times. That’s what inexperienced starters do.
Dorren-
Very quiet. I had that “talking to myself” feeling for a few posts up there.
Its almost time for bed. I got home around 9:30 and then spent an hour and a half in my kitchen prepping stuff for the party at the beach tomorrow
There is nothing wrong with Joba’s shoulder. They wouldn’t keep sending him out there if there was any truth to that myth.
He’s probably had every test known to man. They know he had the shoulder problem last season and they have probably put him through a gauntlet of tests to make sure it is sound.
PLEASE put Joba with Cerevelli,Posada and he are like oil and water,they don’t mix-
“Alfredo Aceves plucked a bunch of songs by the Bee Gees before the game.
“What is this stuff?” Dunn asked.”
OMG, I hope Dunn is still on the roster for the 2010 Old Timers’ Game!
I’d love to see his reaction to Reggie Jackson after his rookie hazing-induced viewngs of “The Naked Gun” and “The Summer of Sam”…
I guess Posada and WS rings don’t mix, either.
Ya know, since he’s never had to catch a pitching staff or call games during his career.
All the blame Posada talk is stupid and utter nonsense.
Trisha-
LOL. We are on the same page.
I have no clue what goes on in his head. But I just feel like if you tell someone how the story is going to end, they are just going to live a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Joba knew he was only going 3-4 innings tonight. He knew even if he was perfect for 4 innings with 12 strikeouts he was going to be yanked. I agree with the seniments of Davod Cone, that he needs to view his spot in the rotation as an honor. But there has to be an automatic letdown knowing he has no chance of finishing what he starts
There had to have to have been a better way the Yankees could have limited Joba’s innings during the year – i.e. skipping starts here and there, taking him out of certain games early with big leads, etc.
The way they have done it is really mind boggling and they are playing with fire because they will need a 4th starter at some point in the post-season … maybe not in the first round, but certainly if they are in the ALCS and World Series.
How reliable can anyone expect Joba to be at this point?
He has become completely non-competitive.
As a poster not too long ago asked, “Why was there no “Lincecum Rules” with the Giants?” … or for that matter, “Verlander Rules” and “Greinke Rules”?
As a poster not too long ago asked, “Why was there no “Lincecum Rules” with the Giants?” … or for that matter, “Verlander Rules” and “Greinke Rules”?
———–
Because every one of those guys had a ton more innings under their belts in the minors.
Joba had never pitched more than 110 innings at the professional level.
All three of those guys exceeded that in the minor leagues. Compare their professional innings to Joba’s and it’s not even close.
Doreen,
It’s not that he was overhyped, but imo he was given a spot in a rotation that was never in danger because, well who knows why.
But I’m with SJ, the Yankees aren’t going to let Joba’s on the job training interfere with any of their post-season goals.
How soon we forget WHY they had to make the Joba Rules.
Not because he didn’t have enough innings in 2007. Because they were worried about the abuse that would incur as he transitioned to a reliever under Torre.
For those who continue to complain about the Joba Rules, perhaps you should offer a better solution to keep his innings down.
They couldn’t always do it during the middle of the season because the Yanks were in a pennant race.
They tried giving him extra days off and Joba was uncomfortable with it.
So now they are limiting his innings every five days because they have the luxury of being way ahead in the AL East standings and they also have a bunch of extra arms in the pen now to help carry the load.
Hate it all you want, but they were going to limit his innings regardless what the fans think of these rules.
But now is the perfect opportunity to do so because of the standings and extra help.
m September 5th, 2009 at 12:34 am
But I’m with SJ, the Yankees aren’t going to let Joba’s on the job training interfere with any of their post-season goals.
———–
SJ may be right in regards to the ALDS. But he is dead wrong in regards to any seven-game series.
If their choices for a Game 4 start is Joba, Mitre, and Gaudin – I’ll give you one guess who they’ll choose.
People also need to understand that the postseason is still a month away. I wouldn’t want any of the Yankee starters to be peaking right now.
There’s still a ton of time to take either a downward turn or an upward turn.
GF,
The proper way to do it would be to start him in the minors where you can control the innings without killing your bullpen. But we didn’t have the luxury of a better starter than him. I get that.
So, the next best way is to let him fly, and then when he reaches a certain threshold you send him down to the minors where they can control his innings.
Or alternately, they could put him in the bullpen. But they’re terrified (imo) of opening that can of worms, even though they would have a perfectly legitimate excuse of reaching his IP limit.
Joba’s not the first good young pitcher that pitched with an innings limit. I don’t know why it’s so hard.
Joba didn’t earn his rotation spot?
To whom should it have been given?
When should it have been taken away?
maybe the yankees should stop rushing pitchers and leave them in the minors to build up innings. These Joba starts are a joke. Obviously nothing can be done about it anymore. He has to remain up here but to have him as a given for the #4 in the postseason? That is insanity. He doesn’t deserve it.
The air is thick with Jobacology tonight!
M,
Can’t start Joba in the minors when you don’t have anyone to replace him.
By the time Wang went down for the season, the BEST option from Scranton was Sergio Mitre.
That tells you all you need to know about their pitching depth this season.
Can’t replace Joba in the rotation with someone worse than Joba.
Yes, Nick. Joba was given a spot. Over the winter.
Has he pitched well enough to keep that spot? Some people would say no.
That’s what I mean when I said it was never in danger.
Hughes & Aceves would’ve been excellent candidates if Joba reached his IP limit going full speed.
E-gawa September 5th, 2009 at 12:45 am
maybe the yankees should stop rushing pitchers and leave them in the minors to build up innings. These Joba starts are a joke. Obviously nothing can be done about it anymore. He has to remain up here but to have him as a given for the #4 in the postseason? That is insanity. He doesn’t deserve it.
———-
So Joba should have never been given the chance to help the team in 2007?
Do me a favor, sell me that crystal ball you have since you saw all of this coming a mile away.
They had no idea that Joba was going to become what he did when he was promoted to the bigs.
GF,
I said that in the first paragraph in my 12:43 post.
“So Joba should have never been given the chance to help the team in 2007?
Do me a favor, sell me that crystal ball you have since you saw all of this coming a mile away.
They had no idea that Joba was going to become what he did when he was promoted to the bigs.”
Since when is being a September Call up the same thing as being rushed to the majors?
Hughes and Aceves both started in Scranton, if I recall correctly. Probably a mistake for Ace, but I really have no recollection of what that happened.
I know Joba’s not an exciting pitcher, but he didn’t just show up one day and ask if he could chuck the ball every five days.
If he had pitched all year as he has in the past few weeks, his spot would have been in danger. He didn’t. It wasn’t.
Does management (Cashman/Girardi) ever get any credit at all for deciding who should pitch and who should catch games?
Burrito time, but please carry on.
E-gawa & GF bring up good points.
What was Joba’s role in 2008? Where did he start the season? I know he was the setup guy, and then became a starter. But he got injured and ended up in the pen.
Did Joba transition when Wang went down? [
]
But the organization decided to leave two other starters in the bullpen.
That’s a very big part of the lack of starting pitching depth.
There’s no instruction manual that would have told Cashman and Girardi how to handle this issue all season.
But they’ve made the decisions they’ve made (Hughes and Aceves to the pen) and those decisions had big ramifications on the other moves they could make regarding the rotation.
I personally didn’t want Hughes to stay in the pen. I wanted him to move back to the rotation when Wang went down for the second time.
I was also a big supporter of moving Aceves back to the pen after they decided against it with Hughes.
But they didn’t want to do that, either.
So we’re going to have to live with those decisions. If the Joba Rules are the worst thing to happen this month, it would seem like they made the right moves.
If you would have moved Hughes or Aceves back to the rotation, you wouldn’t have as strong of a bullpen.
E-gawa September 5th, 2009 at 12:53 am
“So Joba should have never been given the chance to help the team in 2007?
Do me a favor, sell me that crystal ball you have since you saw all of this coming a mile away.
They had no idea that Joba was going to become what he did when he was promoted to the bigs.”
Since when is being a September Call up the same thing as being rushed to the majors?
———–
Um, Joba wasn’t a September callup. His debut was the first week of August in 2007.
They thought Joba could help the team and they were right. He also performed extremely well in the rotation last season before his shoulder problem.
Well, GF. There were a few of us who hated the fact that they told Wang to turn around and head back when Joba got hit by that line drive. We knew there was no way he was ready to pitch.
I get it all, but I don’t know what all the hand-wringing about Joba is. Let the kid pitch, and shut him down when the time comes. But in the Yankees eyes, and the eyes of some of the fan-base, Joba’s going to flip the switch and be a force in the post-season.
I hope they’re right.
(and you brought up a legitimate question, if not Joba then who in a potential 7-game series? Right now, I would take Aceves over Joba for a post-season start. Provided of course if Aceves was stretched out.)
So, the next best way is to let him fly, and then when he reaches a certain threshold you send him down to the minors where they can control his innings.
Or alternately, they could put him in the bullpen. But they’re terrified (imo) of opening that can of worms, even though they would have a perfectly legitimate excuse of reaching his IP limit.
————
They couldn’t do either of those things. They tried moving him back and forth a season ago and they didn’t want to take that chance again.
They also couldn’t send him to the minors at any point because he was better than any replacement and they were in the middle of a pennant race.
Now they have the best of both worlds to keep his innings in check – a big lead and a lot more help in the pen to carry the load.
GF,
But what’s the point? Joba’s messed up according to some people. Like his body clock is off or something. Because they keep changing things.
Personally, I don’t take a lot of stock in it. I like the approach that Phil Hughes uses. He views every appearance like it’s a start. Perhaps Joba shouldn’t look at these as starts? He should look at them as appearances?
I know, grasping. But I don’t think the irregular work or funky innings schedule is the problem. Take ball, throw ball. I think he should simplify things a bit.
Nick made a very legitimate point as well.
People here talk like Joba has been crap all season and never deserved a rotation slot.
Well, that’s not exactly true. People now of course only know that he hasn’t pitched well in the second half outside of his first three starts and have turned on him like they’ve turned on Burnett in recent weeks.
Joba wasn’t that bad in the first half. He had his moments and was fine for the most part.
And his ERA had been under 4.00 all season until his last couple of starts.
No pitcher carries an ERA under 4.00 for most of the season stinking up the joint.
People just don’t remember that right now.
“Um, Joba wasn’t a September callup. His debut was the first week of August in 2007.
They thought Joba could help the team and they were right. He also performed extremely well in the rotation last season before his shoulder problem.”
Close enough. He was only up here to top off his innings limit for that year. I don’t consider that being rushed. Handing out spots like they did with Ian Kennedy and Joba when they haven’t had 200 innings under their belt is rushing them.
Mark Feinsand asks:
“With Sergio Mitre coming off his best start of the season, a good outing Sunday will surely cause some to wonder how secure Chamberlain’s spot as a postseason starter is.”
True, Mark, very true.
GF,
Joba’s ERA doesn’t tell the whole story.
But you guys are right, despite his WHIP happy ways, Joba was finding a way to get it done until a few starts before the ASB. In fact, we marveled at the fact that he was winning even though he was having trouble. Remember the first inning woes? And yet, he’d bounce back.
So, I’m willing to accept that he hit the proverbial wall. But I’ve seen more than one person say that Joba looks lost out there.
Sergio will never start over Joba in the postseason.
“With Sergio Mitre coming off his best start of the season, a good outing Sunday will surely cause some to wonder how secure Chamberlain’s spot as a postseason starter is.”
———–
Don’t count on it.
Mitre’s last start was an aberration. If he does anything like that again over the next four weeks, I’ll eat my favorite Yankee cap.
With all due respect, m, I don’t know why your hand-wringing over Joba is better than anyone else’s hand-wringing over Joba.
What’s the point?
The point is to get Joba to meet his innings limit while still allowing him to pitch in the postseason.
Why do they want him to pitch in this postseason?
Because they think (or hope) that he will help the team win a game or two.
What if the postseason arrives and Joba still looks lost and is pitching badly?
That could be a problem. We have a little way to go between here and there.
Close enough. He was only up here to top off his innings limit for that year. I don’t consider that being rushed. Handing out spots like they did with Ian Kennedy and Joba when they haven’t had 200 innings under their belt is rushing them.
————
No, it’s not “close enough.”
Joba wasn’t just a typical call up so he can see how things happen in the big leagues like most September call ups.
Joba wasn’t on the 40-man roster either and he was in his first season in the minors.
They made the decision to “start his clock” so early in his career because he was blowing the competition away and they thought he could help them in the pen.
The difference between a guy like Mike Dunn’s situation now (he got the call up because he was already on the 40-man) and Joba then are about as comparable to the cultures of middle America and the Middle East.
NickSF.
More importantly than Joba, how the heck was the Burito? What did it consist of? Where was it from. Please rate it 1-10.
-dennis
“Burrito”
I have GB7 typing…
-dennis
dennis, I have mixed feelings about the burrito experience. My regular place closes at 8:30 and is a drive. My local place a couple blocks away stays open ’til 10 and I can run there in about 3 minutes, which is what I had to do when it was 9:55.
It’s called La Corneta, on Diamond Street in Glen Park. I would probably never go there if I didn’t live 3 minutes away.
The burrito itself is decent, maybe a 5-6 on the SF burrito scale. I got verde chicken. I also ordered a can of coke and they didn’t put it in the bag and I forgot to check. I was upset when I got home. The Joba betrayals haven’t helped either!
lol, Nick. Yes, but my hand-wringing is keeping me from wringing someone’s neck out of frustration.
But I refuse to put my head in the sand, and pretend everything’s hunky dory with Joba. Not saying you are, but I myself refuse to do it.
So, I will concede that the Yankees are doing the best they can do achieve all the goals related to Joba.
And I’ve already said that Joba will start in the postseason. And I’ve already predicted he will do it well.
But personally, I’m tired of hearing all the excuses people make for Joba. And I’m sure the Yankees would like to see more out of Joba. After all, that’s why they kept him in the majors instead of developing him in the minors, right?
NickSF.
As always. LOL. Have a great night “Yankee People”…
-dennis
If Joba starts a playoff game, Yanks will lose that game almost for sure.
He sucks, for now, pure and simple.
If they meet Tigers in ALDS, basically AJ will decide the fate.
I want to see more out of Joba too. Just like I wanted a Coke with my burrito!
The difference is, I paid for the Coke. And there’s nothing I can do about it. They were closed by the time I got home and saw no Coke in the bag and I wasn’t going to walk back and knock on the glass door for a can of Coke.
And the next time I go, I’m not going to say “hey, you didn’t give me the Coke I paid for a few nights ago, hows about you give it to me now?”
So I didn’t get the Coke. I’m grumpy, but the sun will come out tomorrow.
And so it goes for Joba.
LOL. Is Julio Franco an agent now?
Mets To Sign Japanese Teenager
By Mike Axisa [September 4 at 9:09pm CST]
Patrick at the great NPB Tracker passes along a report from the Japanese publication ChuSpo, which says that the Mets have agreed to sign Japanese teenager Taiki Kawasaki. The lefthanded hurler stands 6’1″, 170 lbs, and reportedly throws a high-80′s fastball, as well as a slider and curve. He’ll receive a minor league contract.
The 17-yr old native of Osaka left Japan after high school in hopes of signing with a Major League franchise, and has been training at Julio Franco’s academy in Florida. Patrick says that Franco will reportedly travel to Japan in the middle of next month to officially announce the signing.
The RIAA is going to sue the Blue Jays for what would amount to keeping-Roy-Halladay money and it’s going to be awesome.
“No, it’s not “close enough.”
Joba wasn’t just a typical call up so he can see how things happen in the big leagues like most September call ups.
Joba wasn’t on the 40-man roster either and he was in his first season in the minors.
They made the decision to “start his clock” so early in his career because he was blowing the competition away and they thought he could help them in the pen.
The difference between a guy like Mike Dunn’s situation now (he got the call up because he was already on the 40-man) and Joba then are about as comparable to the cultures of middle America and the Middle East.”
No…. He was at 80ish innings in the minors. So it was either 3-4 more starts down there and shut him down or bring him up to the majors for 20ish more innings. We were hearing about the 100mph fast ball on YES for half of the season so yeah obviously they brought him up to help the team but it was to top off his innings.
Leaving him up here to “develop” was the mistake.
No…. He was at 80ish innings in the minors. So it was either 3-4 more starts down there and shut him down or bring him up to the majors for 20ish more innings. We were hearing about the 100mph fast ball on YES for half of the season so yeah obviously they brought him up to help the team but it was to top off his innings.
Leaving him up here to “develop” was the mistake.
—————-
No, not really. Especially since his career numbers in the majors were outstanding for someone so inexperienced yet enormously talented.
He showed last season he was pretty damn good, both in the rotation and the pen. But the shoulder problem happened and the plan for this season changed.
He can’t learn how to pitch in the majors by spending the season in the minors.
he was also supposed to be their fifth starter, which was going to help limit his innings because they could skip some of his starts.
But a lot of that plan went right out the window when Wang had his issues and then went down for the season.
Losing Wang was enormous for this team and greatly affected the way the Yanks were going to handle Joba’s development this season.
So you’re dead wrong. Again and again and again.
Some people have the stomach to develop young pitchers and some people don’t.
I’ll put you and most of this board in the latter category.
Getting Joba to his innings limit is great. Fantastic. Great idea. Love it. In favor of it.
How about, while managing that innings limit, they also figure out a way to get Joba to pitch like anything remotely resembling a decent starting pitcher?
Raise your hand if you’re excited about the prospect of Joba Chamberlain pitching in the postseason right now.
He’s not pitching well. He hasn’t been pitching well for a while. The argument that he hasn’t been the same since his shoulder injury is a good one; he may never be the same. It’s something the organization and its fans are going to have to get comfortable with. This Joba Chamberlain is not the guy we saw coming out of the bullpen. Youth, inexperience, injury, blame whatever you want. The fact is, he’s lost velocity, movement, command, you name it. That doesn’t add up to a real promising future for Mr. Chamberlain.
GF -
Sorry for leaving the conversation I started before it really even got started. No one was here for a bit, and I was really, really tired.
I don’t want to be lumped with people who have no stomach for developing young pitchers.
And I think many of the people posting last night shouldn’t be lumped there, either. But Joba’s become a source of frustration among fans.
I know the Yankees didn’t overhype Joba, but the fact is, he did become a product of the hype machine that is NY sports when you burst on the scene like supernova, which he did in 2007. Exceeded expectations. Had the fist action. Created controversy and conversation and admiration and all of it. Last season he had the start against Boston against Beckett which was outstanding, and raised expectations even further.
I agree that the way they’ve handled him this season, or the plans they had for handling him this season, took a hit when Wang went down. It changed the dynamics of the pitching staff and compromised the depth of the starting pitching. Yes, the bullpen was the recipient of a shot in the arm, but the starting staff is thinner than it was expected to be.
I think Joba “is” a bit lost out there now. Perhaps at the end of the limit he “is” hitting his personal wall. That’s not the same as saying he’s never going to be a successful starting pitcher. I would bet he’s a little befuddled himself, having not experienced this adversity before. I think in the long-term, it will have been useful (the adversity).
I have no problem with the Joba rules. I know why they’re there and it makes sense in the long term. And it’s not a crime to be disappointed that he didn’t progress this season as we (well, I) had hoped. At least for me, it doesn’t mean I’ve “given up” on him. But, I think this season is now all about meeting the innings limit and remaining healthy.
The biggest DOPE fans are from NY.
But hey…That’s old news!
If Joba keeps pitching this way and the Yankees don’t want to put him in the bullpen, then he shouldn’t even be on the postseason roster. I don’t want him starting a playoff game. Do you?
CC, AJ and Pettitte are the three known quantities for the playoffs right now. Joba is fourth – right now. No he’s not performing well, but the Yankees generally have enough offense to overcome pitching dificiencies unless it’s a night like last night. In essence, the team will be fine.
All this is just preparation for next season. I’m still of the belief that if you’re going to only pitch him for 3 or 4 innings, then you should have him come in from the bullpen, pumped with adrenalin, which I believe helps him. I’d rather switch Aceves to the rotation for 3 or 4 innings, but that’s just my opinion.
Many months ago, I suggested that the Yankees should start Joba for about 4 innings early in the season, and have Hughes relieve him for 1 or 2, then switch them later in the season, thereby controlling both their innings limits and giving both shots in the rotation and bullpen. However, Hughes excellent performance out of the pen became much more frequent which nixed that possibility.
Regardless, as many here have said, get ready for the Hughes-rules for 2010. It will be interesting to see both of them in the rotation, and the competitiveness that should stem from that with the experience they have had the past two years. The team has enough arms to fill the pen in Hughes absence with Melancon potentially taking his spot, and Albaladejo, Dunn and others as additional options.
All in all, no gloom and doom here. You can’t win them all.
Saint
“likes disco and John Fogerty”…
Not necessarily so! Bee Gees had a tremendous career before disco existed. Ace might’ve been downloading “I Started a Joke”, or “Words”, not “Jive Talkin’”
CCR is greatness.
I was out to dinner with friends last night (alas they don’t like the Yankees) and we were watched the first three innings last night. We both noticed that Joba made some good pitches with his breaking stuff, but the fastball which Joe seemed to think was agressive and better was always in the middle of the plate and the Jays knocked the cover off it. Both of us thought his fastball was pretty medicore.
Then the high pitch counts, no first ball strike counts, 3-0′s and walks started happening.
I don’t know what Joe saw, but this is much the same as most of the year. He has a significant control issue and when he gets his pitch over the plate they are waiting for it. Personally I don’t see him breaking this funk this year, he has that I’m in a funk lost look. I hope we don’t get into a situation where a playoff series is on the line and he gets the ball.
Was posted earlier but needs to be repeated: This project got off course when he was called up after 88 minor league innings and just one pro season. Joba Rules work just as well in Scranton or Trenton, so that when he makes the bigs he isn’t taking up a roster spot like he is now
please don’t stigmatize Ace by saying he likes disco. early BeeGees was quality stuff. if he likes fogarty and creedence, chances are he despises disco, as most people with musical taste did, back in the day of the “disco sucks” chants at the ballgames.
Joba’s a mess right now. I’m not even sure he’s a viable bullpen option for the post season right now.
You can put blinders on all you want but this is not the same pitcher he once was. He’s not even in the realm of the same pitcher he once was.
He’s lost velocity and movement. He’s lost the snap to his slider.
He’s lost.
You start him in the post season and he’ll be out of the game by the 2nd inning.
If this is a case that the Yankees screwed up one of the best homegrown arms they’ve had then someone needs to answer for it.
I don’t think that’s the case though. I think it’s all mental with this kid and he looks defeated when he walks out to the mound now.
The only time he looks like he has any passion is when he’s playing cheerleader on the bench.
I think when the book is written on him for this season it’s going to go back to that DUI arrest and the tone it set for his season.
You can sit here and call it young pitcher struggles all you want, but where did his stuff go?
Where’s the answer for that?
The stuff is gone. He’s positively Rasner-like right now.
The real question is who is the 4th starter in the playoffs?
I can’t believe we’re going into a post season not knowing that for sure and possibly playing that game bullpen by committee before we even get to it.
This late in the season and still trying to figure out the # 2, AJ and # 4 Joba pitchers problems.Joe is so mechanical,he keeps paring Joba a Jorge.Why not try Molina?
I fully agree this is all Joba,but a change might yield different results.
joba’s inner diva is getting the best of him . he feels he is being jerked around but his immaturity won’t let him realize it is for his own good. like a good parent , the yankee mgmt is trying to do what they think is best for him but he is resisting. does he realize he is only a 3 or 4 starter and has a lot to learn about being a pitcher. take your time son and learn from mentors like Andy and CC, notice no mention of AJ.
“If Joba keeps pitching this way and the Yankees don’t want to put him in the bullpen, then he shouldn’t even be on the postseason roster. I don’t want him starting a playoff game. Do you?”
What other choice do you have? If the Yankees get deep into the playoffs, they’re going to need a 4th starter.
“This project got off course when he was called up after 88 minor league innings and just one pro season”
Agree. Hindsight being 20/20, Joba has a poor foundation.
Everyone got caught up in promise and thought this kid is too good for AAA so we’ll keep him with the big team and figure it out as we go.
Anything with no foundation and a bad blueprint is either going to need constant maintenance or fall down.
Joba’s struggle is as a direct result of a loss of velocity. It is not pitch calling, the catcher’s identity etc. A 91 MPH fastball gets hit if it is in the middle of the plate much more often than a 96 MPH one. Joba does what anyone would do–try to hit the corners and throw more breaking balls. This leads to more walks and being behind in more counts. Unless Joba either regains his velocity or significantly improves his command he will not be solid starter. That is why I wanted another starter added to the roster. If the Yanks get to the second round of the playoffs is their anyone who feels confident with Joba or anyone else in that role?
you know I’m just not convinced that Joba will ever be an elite pitcher and if the Yankees could have built a trade for Halladay around him then I think it was a mistake to pass on it. The Yankees have a window of 2 or 3 years here where they could win multiple titles before Jeter, Arod, Posada, Rivera, etc get too old. A rotation of Halladay, CC, Burnett would have been a dream. Im not convinced Joba has the menal capacity to be anywhere near the pitcher Halladay is and its almost certain that Roy would be much better over the window that the Yankees can be great… Hughes is untouchable IMO but I see arm troubles and underperforming in Joba’s future.
Perhaps Joba should be shut down for a week or two. Let him get in a few appearances during the last ten days of the season and hopefully he will have better velocity and command for the playoffs.
It is a long season and Joba looks fatigued. Either that or he has a health issue that he is hiding. I really don’t want Mitre, Gaudin or Ace starting a playoff game. Of the three, I would have to go with Ace right now. He seems pretty tough mentally and that is important in October.
I don’t understand why the Yankees are even considering starting Joba in the playoffs. They have a big enough lead where they should be experimenting with him in the bullpen right now to see if he can find the 4-5 MPH he lost. If they could get him right out of the pen like he was in 2007 then that would give them 2 8th innings types (Hughes/Joba) in the postseason. To me that is much more valuable than a walk filled 4 innings game 4 start (which is probably what would happen). I’d rather see Aceves start game 4 than Joba at this point. I know Aceves will at least throw stikes and make the other team beat him.. If Joba could just come in and give it all he’s got for one inning then he may find his velocity and confidence again…
@sunny615: do you know joba personally to make those claims?
Halladay was auditioning for C-money.
You could him (Halladay) saying,You passed on this, how you like me now!
Even if Toronto wanted to trade Halladay this off season,Joba wouldn’t get their interest now.
How they should have dealt with Joba’s innings limits:
Skip a start a month – that’s 6 scheduled skips – and one or two others around rainouts or the All Star Break.
That would have given him about 25-27 starts max. At 6 IP / start that would have been 150 – 162 IP.
Wow, it’s been 5 games off the Magic Number since I posted last? Yikes!
I so wanted to see Halladay in pinstripes & Joba The Slug gone north of the border. That game was especially painful.
Nothing wrong with Aces taste in tunes.
Joba needs to start the season in the minors next year. He is out of whack, seemingly in all phases of his game. There has been no consistency for the guy(joba rules)in flux.
Yankee management needs to talk with him, need to explain that they while trying to get the most safely from him they have screwed the poor guy up. Asuming of course he is not hiding injury from them. Not an impossible thought.
He needs consistency he just is not getting it. The lack of velocity makes him less than ordinary without the experience and learned skills of a Mussina Petitte ordinary willl not cut it.
This is a long shot but here it goes
I think the reason he is not throwing as fast as he use to is because he doesnt want to, not because he cant. If you remember, after the ASB he was pitching really good, and his FB was around 94-96 most of the time. Then he went down a notch. Also in the beginning of the season he had one or two starts where he was at 95-97.
As soon as the Yankees jumped ahead in the standings, Jobas velocity went down. What if Joe told him not to stress himself and his shoulder and take the end of Aug and early September lightly so he doesnt get injured? Then towards the last week of semptember or something to get in his usual shape.
That would make sense to Joe defending Joba after his bad starts and Joba saying he was feeling good.
Like I said a LONG LONG shot but hey, youll never know. I wouldnt be surprised if he becomes what we all want him to be towards the end of sept. and in the postseason.
Phil has definitely earned a starting spot in the rotation next season.Chien and Joba will have to prove themselves.
When I seen Joba vs Halladay I knew it was a throw away game.
I just didn’t want any one pegged for the loss,but Jba.o
Get Joba back into the bullpen where he belongs. He is a typical closer mentality who puts all his energy into one inning. When spread out over a span of more than a few innings he is nothing special. I dont understand why the Yankees are continuing to force feed this issue. Its almost like they are afraid to admit Francesa is right. This great talent has been handled awfully this year. I hope next year they get it right.
next year phil could be going thru the same things joba is now.
dont be surprised to see joba in the pen for the alds.
imagine this scenario: yanks down 2-1 in the alcs, joba due to pitch. he hasnt pitched, aside from the pen in alds, in about 2 weeks.
what do we do?
“No, not really. Especially since his career numbers in the majors were outstanding for someone so inexperienced yet enormously talented.
He showed last season he was pretty damn good, both in the rotation and the pen. But the shoulder problem happened and the plan for this season changed.
He can’t learn how to pitch in the majors by spending the season in the minors.
he was also supposed to be their fifth starter, which was going to help limit his innings because they could skip some of his starts.
But a lot of that plan went right out the window when Wang had his issues and then went down for the season.
Losing Wang was enormous for this team and greatly affected the way the Yanks were going to handle Joba’s development this season.
So you’re dead wrong. Again and again and again.
Some people have the stomach to develop young pitchers and some people don’t.
I’ll put you and most of this board in the latter category.”
Joba didn’t have a major league career when they called him up in 2007. What are you talking about?
Last year, he wasn’t bad but that was last year. THIS YEAR he’s a completely different pitcher than he was LAST year AND he’s not showing improvement.
Developing young pitchers is fine but it should be done in the minors. “he can’t learn anything new there” Well, he’s not learning anything new here and he’s hurting the bullpen.
Joba
– Not ready to be a post-season starter
.. look at his last 6 starts, or last 9 of 11.
– I don’t want him in the BP
.. he needs to fix his BB ratio & his velocity.
– take the pressure off of him now
.. tell to work on control and velocity
.. don’t worry about innings or victories
– off-season assignments
.. conditioning, strength, control, velocity
.. send him to some winter league
Aceves
– Give him Joba’s next starts
– Build up his innings- 3, then 4, then 5 innings
– post-season 4th starter
– experience, and performance- ERA, WHIP, BAA and OPSa stats!
Hughes
– can he be stretched out to make a start
.. maybe share a start w/ Aceves (3-4 innings each)
– winter ball to help stretch for next season?
Bruney, Robertson, Marte, Melancon, Dunn
– Use September kinda like Spring Training
– try out for post-season pitching assignments
– setup role?
Sports Geek:
Where to start? They have a month to get Joba fixed and they will. He’s also not going to Winter Ball. Have you paid attention to the innings-control issue whatsoever? They need Aceves in the bullpen. You don’t stretch a reliever out in September for the postseason. And Robertson needs to try out for a postseason assignment? Have you looked at his numbers? He’s been on the team all year, he’s on the team in October, it’s not even a debate
They are the best team in baseball because they haven’t panicked all season. They’re not going to start now.
Pete
Thanks for your reply to my comments.
- I agree you don’t normally start fooling around in September, but you need a 4th starter for post season, and I just don’t see it being Joba this year.
- re Joba- he has had 2 bad months, with only 2 good starts. And no real progress over the last month. I would love to be as hopeful as you, but I just don’t see it.
- Yes I have followed the innings control issue a lot. I understand it well. My point is that Joba is just not cutting it right now, and they need to work on his 2010+ future, and forget about him for this post season.
And once you make that decision about Joba, then where do you get your 4th starter? I see Aceves as choice 1, and Hughes as choice 2. So you need to stretch them out.
Aceves is “semi-” stretched out already- he is pitching over 2 innings most times he pitches. His pitch count has been over 40 3 times since August 10th. He was a starter before coming to the Yankees.
Yes, no question about Robertson being on the post season roster. BUT, my point was could he, should he be the setup man if Hughes becomes the 4th starter?
FYI- I look at this stuff a lot. You wouldn’t believe the number of spreadsheets of data and graphs that I have.. trying to figure out trends and strengths and opportunities.
I’m not talking about panicking. I am talking about dealing with a problem, and I’m sorry to say that Joba looks like a problem right now (at least for the short term he does).
Thanks for the great blog and the insightful comments.
Sports Geek:
I appreciate your passion — and that you’re reading the blog — but none of the stuff you want will happen. They’re committed to the roles they have in place now. You don’t mess with young arms at this point in the season.
Joba: needs work. He’s not quite right physically. And he isn’t quite right mentally, either.
He didn’t throw a pitch harder than 95 yesterday. That’s plenty fast, but he should be throwing the occasional 97-98 heater even as a starter. He hasn’t been. And his command has been way off.
BeeGees: early stuff was original, well-crafted. “To Love Somebody” was one of the great songs of its era. Disco sucked, and the BeeGees sucked when they played disco. Anyone who can still listen to “Stayin’ Alive” is either a nerd or an alcoholic.
GUYS where the EFF is the panic button?! Our 23 year-old pitcher in his first season as a full time starter has been struggling for five games! If he doesn’t win ten more games by the end of the season, he is DONE.
stef:
I wouldn’t say I am panicking. That would mean I was worried about the fate of the team. Clearly, I am not.
On the other hand, I am concerned about the near-term effectiveness of Joba. I really love him for the long term. But, I just don’t see him as contributing to the playoffs this year. Especially when there is a great alternative right within our midst- Aceves.
I want to say one more things on this subject…
Even if Joba is Plan A for post season 4th starter, I strongly believe there should be a Plan B. Even more, I think the Yankees should do whatever is necessary to make Plan B possible in case it is needed.
… in other words, they should begin preparing some alternative 4th starter. That may be Aceves or Hughes or whoever.