Where does Jeter rank all-time?
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Sep 10, 2009 
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Derek Jeter tied Lou Gehrig for the most hits in franchise history last night. This raises an interesting question: Where does Jeter rank on the list of greatest Yankees?
Here is my top 10:
1. Babe Ruth
2. Lou Gehrig
3. Joe DiMaggio
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Yogi Berra
6. Derek Jeter
7. Whitey Ford
8. Mariano Rivera
9. Bill Dickey
10. Lefty Gomez
I did 1-9 easy. The last spot is a tough call. You could say Bernie Williams based on where he stands on the career lists. Maybe Don Mattingly or even Andy Pettitte.
My criteria was years spent with the team, championships won and where the player stood in terms of the competition at the time. Reggie Jackson was a Yankee for five years, A-Rod for six. That’s not enough tenure in my book. A-Rod could get there, obviously.
So what’s your list?
UPDATE, 1:21 p.m.: Some great discussions on the blog about the topic, make sure to check them out. People are reasonably discussing baseball on the internet. It’s a miracle.
Back later on.
I think Mattingly’s gotta crack the top 10… he was “the man” for almost 15 years
Derek Jeter is the greatest Yankee that my generation will EVER see play live. However, nobody is eclipsing Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle on that list. Nobody. And you can probably throw in Yogi as “untouchable” in his spot at #5 simply because of the two fists full of rings. That’s insane and will NEVER be broken.
no phil rizzuto? wasn’t much of as player (although he did win an mvp and is in the HOF) but his broadcast career plus his playing career should get him in …no? and he was the ultimate yankee fan – on the days he didn’t leave early to beat traffic…
My only change would be Thurman Munson as 10. He was very good and could have had HOF numbers had his career not been cut short.
Also led the resurgence of the franchise in the 70′s.
That’s a great list Pete and pretty darn accurate.
Its amazing that Derek Jeter has made the Top 6.
Not because he isn’t a great player. He is.
But, we are talking about Mount Rushmore types of players when you are talking the NY Yankees and Derek has done it in his own, unique way.
Not a power hitter, not a booming over the top personality, and not at a position known for offense.
He’s had an amazing career to date and to put together this kind of season at 35 really speaks to his greatness.
He doesn’t rest on his laurels, doesn’t take being a MLB player for granted, and is all about winning.
I hope the young guys on the team understand, appreciate and “get” what Derek Jeter is all about.
I’m really happy he’s getting the attention (although he hates it) he’s getting re: this record.
Its about time people realize just how special a player he is. I think that gets lost when some people try to tear him down and try to find flaws in his game.
No player is more respected in the game by other players than Derek Jeter.
That pretty much sums it up when it comes to talking about him.
Dead on Pete…
As much as I love Donny baseball I’m not sure if he cracks the top 10 simply on the lack of championships. Let’s face it, that’s how Yankees get judged. It’s not his fault he had no pitching around him for his terrific run or that his back let him down and forced him to walk early.
Depending on how Andy does this fall he might make a solid case for #10. At this rate I don’t see why he won’t be back next year, he still has it. Hell in my opinion he has leapfrogged AJ and deserves the #2 spot. Although Joe might prefer having him pitch the 1st road game in the DS and also might favor splitting the lefties up, either way he is clearly the #2 since the ASB.
I think you have your top five (those legendary Yankees) and then the top 10 after that.
How could you leave off Alvaro Espinoza?
You don’t evaluate individual player achievements on the number of championships. That’s a team thing.
Homer Bush has more WS rings than Don Mattingly. I don’t think people would place Homer above Mattingly on the list of All-Time Yankee Greats.
Donnie Baseball could be tied for 10th with Lefty Gomez. That’s a reasonable argument.
Lefty Gomez though is definitely a Top 10 Yankee. Look at his career. Its Top 10 worthy for sure.
Pete, I completely agree on the top 9, good job, 10 is tough, I think I’d lean towards Munson though.
How did you leave off Carl Pavano? J/K
Lost in last night’s moment was the fact that Joba actually pitches pretty decently. After the first inning he settled down tremendously and showed that he is still capable to living up to his potential.
i’d put the hitman in the top ten, other than that, its golden.
how bout the top ten yankees who played less then 10 years?
theres been a few who made an impact in a shorter time span.
Cone.
Tino.
the count montefusco
solid list pete.
still burns me that people out there do that overrated chant.
my girlfriends brother is a met fan and thinks he is?
like i mentioned though, he’s also a met fan
1) Ruth
Rizzuto
2) Gehrig
3) Dimaggio
4) Mantle
5) Yogi
6) Jeter
7) Mo
9) Whitey
10)Bernie
Posada could crack the top 10 in about two years.
1. Ruth
2. Gehrig
3. DiMaggio
4. Mantle
5. Berra
6. Jeter
7. Rivera
8. Ford
9. Dickey
10. Mattingly
11. Gomez
12. Rizzuto
13. Williams
14. Guidry
15. Munson
16. Howard
17. Pettitte
18. Posada
19. A-Rod
20. O’Neill
21. Nettles
22. Jackson
23. Gossage
24. Lazzeri
25. Maris (just for the record)
Top 10 that played less than ten yrs with the Yanks?
Have to include Mr. Hall Of Famer’s Dave Winfield and Rickey.
But someone who just played his friggin heart out and changed the way I watch a game is Paulie. I love that guy.
there are a bunch of Yankees who could or should be top 10 and the #10 spot is just about right:
-Thurman Munson
-Donnie Baseball
-Bernie Williams
-The Scooter
-Red Ruffing (won more games than Gomez with the Yankees)
-Allie Reynolds (was the glue of the pitching staff for the 5 consecutive World Series wins both in the rotation and in the ‘pen).
-Earle Coombs (lifetime avg of .325, entire career with the Yankees)
It’s interesting how the top 9 seem really easy, there isn’t anyone on the #10 candidate list who would or should replace anyone in Pete’s top 9
If Posada cracks the top 10, who do you drop?
That’s why two lists. The top 5 who are unchallengeable into eternity, and then the top 10 in the next tier.
Hey, speaking of Carl Pavano (someone up there brought him up), he is 12-11 on the year. I have no idea if this is good or bad in terms of the quality of his pitching, but he’s got 23 decisions!!!! Who’da thunk it?
I think Mo should be higher….higher than Jeter? Maybe, because he’s the best ever (by far) at his position.
Joe and Evan made it sound this morning as if Jeter is all about intangibles and has no numbers to back up his greatness. LOL He’s a SS, he’s not a slugger; he’s not supposed to compete on the same slugging level as Alex, etc….. Jeter is as good at his position as anyone has been at theirs, and that’s all you can ask.
I feel privileged to have been able to watch Jeter sprout from a young pup (but then, he was never really a young pup – he ALWAYS, even as a rookie, had a mature attitude and a refreshing respect for the game) to a no-doubt, first-ballot HOFer. Yet, I’m proudest of how respected he is around the game. John Hirschbeck’s comment (that game where Jeter argued the call at 3rd base, when the ump decided to change the rules) blew me away – to say that he’s the classiest player he’s ever been around? That’s pretty terrific stuff. I will never understand his peers, though. They are always voting him the most overrated player in the game (SI conducts polls every few years, it seems)…………..They respect him, but they think he’s overrated? I can’t comprehend that logic, especially when he isn’t overrated.
Jeter never says or does anything wrong (well, I think he could have handled the Alex situation much better in 2006 than he did, but aside from that). I think he could play in any time, any era, and he’d fit right in. I have to say that I love his swing – that patented, inside out swing; I think it’s a thing of beauty.
Pete -
You forgot Wilson Betemit.
I would switch Jeter and Yogi, otherwise I’m in complete agreement. Yes, Yogi has more rings, but Jeter is the better player. Derek Jeter is perhaps the second best shortstop since World War II (behind Ripken). Now that I think about it, Ripken might have the counting stats and the consecutive games record, but Jeter dominates him in the rate stat categories. Now, in a few years this spot might be reserved for Hanley Ramirez, but he has to keep performing at a ligh level for as long as Jeter has.
Yogi? Where does he compare to Bench, Piazza, Fisk, Mauer (Like Hanley, it might be premature to put Mauer on this list. But he is thisclose to winning his third batting title. As a catcher. Ludicrous). Maybe Yogi gets more credit for his additional decades of being a Yankee ambassador.
But when you consider the fact that Jeter is the better player at his position, was THE central figure on four championship teams (during an era of greater parity and three playoffs series), and has already been wrapped with the all important blanket of “Yankee Mystique” I think you have to give Jetes the edge.
I would add this: even if you give Yogi the edge now, Jeter (barring some catastrophe) will likely pass him by the time its all said and done. As Yogi would say, it ain’t over till its over.
“If Posada cracks the top 10, who do you drop?”
Exactly. Posada’s been great, but he’s not quite Top 10 material in this organizations history. Iffy postseason numbers don’t bolster his case when compared to the Top 10 Pete named either.
Not to take anything away from Jeter, but I think you have to give him and Mo a tie at 6. They both equally have contributed to the success of the team over the last 15 years and will go down as the best yankees at their position and one of the best overall (in Rivera’s case, the best).It’s easy to say that Rivera only pitches 1 inning, but where would they be without him?
No offense to Whitey Ford but I would move up Mariano a notch above Whitey.
The Captain was happy about his accomplishment last night in tying Lou Gehrig but he seemed just as happy seeing his good buddy Jorge hit the pinch hit 3-run homer to elevate the team.
Can’t discount the first inning with Joba. He only pitched 3 innings, when they were looking for 4 out of him, and he needed Jeter to get in his grill to re-focus. Hard to understand why he needs that when he knows he’s only going to be out there for 4 innings.
Why not attack aggressively from the first pitch? Why throw 90 until your 24th pitch of the inning? That’s a lack of focus and that’s been Joba’s biggest problem this year. Its mystifying to everyone associated with the Yankees.
Fortunately, they have a big lead and his struggles, while frustrating, aren’t going to affect the team in the post-season. They will just have to work around him.
We aren’t going to know anything about Joba’s potential and his future until next ST. The Joba we see next spring will tell us a lot. Hopefully, he’s in better shape, more coachable and catchable, and uses this humbling year as a learning experience.
Jeter is better than Ripken and it’s not even close. Ripken’s a career .276 hitter and Jeter has a higher SLG and OBP.
Red Ruffing would be my #11. Top 15 for sure.
A top ten list that omits Aaron Boone doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously.
Maybe I’d flip Mo & Ford, and put Mattingly 10th ahead of Gomez. Otherwise, it’s pretty dead-on.
It’s when you get to the next 10-15 when things get interesting.
You’re dealing with about 4 or 5 different eras of greatness:
Lazzeri, Coombs, Ruffing
Reynolds, Rizzuto
Maris, Howard
Munson, Reggie, Gossage, Guidry, Lyle, Nettles
Bernie, O’Neil, Posada, Pettitte, ARod
I’m sure I’m missing a few.
1. Babe Ruth
2. Louie G
3. Mantle
4. Joey D
5. Yogi Berra
6. Derek Jeter
7. Whitey Ford
8. M. Rivera
9. Scooter
10. Thurman Munson
many of you never saw Whitey Ford pitch so can’t be completely objective about his career. But here are a few things that don’t jump off the page when looking at his statistics:
1. He lost 2 full years due to the Korean War after going 9-1 in half a rookie season (including a WS clinching 4th game in 1950).
2. Casey Stengel used to spot him in the rotation on a regular basis so he could only face the tougher teams. He probably lost 3-4 wins a year because of this in the ’50s
3. He was unbelievable in the post season.
Throw that together with his winning percentage, career ERA, and overall World Series performance and he needs to be higher than Mo (and that takes nothing away from Mo, a sure 1st ballot Hall of Famer).
That top ten looks pretty good to me Pete. I think Red Ruffing, Mattingly, Bernie, Reggie, Guidry, Munson and Pettitte are all in the conversation from 11-15.
I’d swap Thurman Munson for Bill Dickey — in part because Dickey always had a better supporting cast and didn’t need to be the center of the offense.
dont forget mel stottlemyer
I love Mo, but I don’t believe you could remotely consider Mo as tied with Jetes. Jetes contributes daily and well Mo as important and unbleivable as he is and has been doesn’t. Not a knock no way just facts mam. Mo the other man.
Pete’s list is good enough for me, for now anyway.
Lou Gehrig was played by Gary Cooper; I don’t think Jeter can ever top that.
Mike McCann
September 10th, 2009 at 11:06 am
I’d swap Thurman Munson for Bill Dickey — in part because Dickey always had a better supporting cast and didn’t need to be the center of the offense.
——————————————-
if anything, Dickey should swap places with Yogi- .313 lifetime BA, 18 years with the Yankees, and singly spanned the era from Babe Ruth, Joe Dimaggio, and the great Yankees teams of the early ’40s with 7 WS rings in 8 chances.
stottlemyre….2.97 era
i’d put mantle above dimaggio. i don’t know enough about gomez and dickey, but i have a hunch when i look closer at their careers i wouldn’t object.
i loved mattingly but his timing was off. bernie is in the next ten. posada same thing.
mo is interesting though. he might have to be gone before it sinks in how good he really is .
he might well go higher than he is on pete’s list.
he may not be close to being finished yet.
not to forget Paulie O’
Six is about right for Jeter here…the real debate should be for the seventh spot: Whitey Ford or Mariano Rivera?
stott averaged 253 innings pitched per year
Good list. I might have Red Ruffing over Lefty at the 10 spot, but that’s just nitpicking.
And right now I have Mo over Jeter, but Jeter will most likely play for a longer period of time and overtake him.
mo said he hopes to be around when jeter breaks roses hit record.
TonyB –
Right?
MG -
That is one of the problems in coming up with lists like this – the historical perspective. If you didn’t see a guy play, you’re going on highlight reels and stats sheets, and, to some extent myths and legends created around a player. I think that’s why current players get weighted a little too heavily by current fans. And it’s understandable.
Mo trumps Jeter. No disrespect to Jeter, but Mo is the greatest closer ever.
That Carl Pavano was left off of this list is an egregious omission at best…
stott finished 25 games over .500 in the garbage years
Doreen
September 10th, 2009 at 11:16 am
MG -
That is one of the problems in coming up with lists like this – the historical perspective. If you didn’t see a guy play, you’re going on highlight reels and stats sheets, and, to some extent myths and legends created around a player. I think that’s why current players get weighted a little too heavily by current fans. And it’s understandable.
—————————————-
Doreen, I agree completely. While I never saw Bill Dickey play, my dad saw both he and Yogi and thought Dickey was better so that is my perspective. He also thought DiMaggio was incredible (he was born in 1916 in the Bronx so saw all of them play at least once).
I would probably swap the Mick and Joltin’ Joe. 3 and 4 Respectively. I think Pettite or Munson should crack the top 10, but I don’t want to be the one to knock out Bill Dickey.
You all realize that A-Rod’s name could be in the top 10 in a few years? He may have to add a few rings but, ya never know. Thats why I don’t think Donny should be in there.
I never get any love around here.
Pete,
Your list is about the way I see them. Red Ruffing is close though.
MG -
You’re lucky to have your dad to give you that inside information!
Here’s my top 10 and then a brief explanation
1. Lou Gehrig
2. Babe Ruth
3. Joe DiMaggio
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Yogi Berra
6. Mariano Rivera
7. Whitey Ford
8. Derek Jeter
9. Bill Dickey
10.Don Mattingly
Lou Gehrig is the greatest Yankee of all time. Yes, Babe Ruth did more for baseball and had bigger numbers. But Lou Gehrig was all about class. Ruth was out drinking and womanizing, so was Mantle. DiMaggio was class, but you wouldn’t want to catch him on a bad day or after a fight with Marilyn. Lou Gehrig is the symbol of Yankee pride, courage, and honor.
This is a great discussion because there’s no right or wrong answer. For me the top four is almost indisputable. I put Mickey ahead of DiMaggio because is Joe had gone to RF like he should have Mickey wouldn’t have gotten hurt when he did and his career might have been even more phenomenal.
After that:
5. Mariano Rivera
6. Yogi Berra
7. Derek Jeter
8. Whitey Ford
9. Lefty Gomez
10. Bernie Williams
Then:
11. Bill Dickey
12. Ron Guidry
13. Don Mattingly
14. Andy Pettite
15. Munson/Posada
And I left off some great players…. think any other team could have Mattingly and Guidry outside the top ten?
So it’s Joe D’s fault that Mantle got hurt. Okay……
DiMaggio was class, but you wouldn’t want to catch him on a bad day or after a fight with Marilyn
****
No clue what you are talking about. DiMaggio and Marilyn Monroe weren’t married until almost 2 and a half years after he stopped playing baseball. I don’t even think they met until after he was retired because she didn’t want to go out with a baseball player
rose had about 1500 hits after age 35. he was hurt and played part-time in about 10 of those years. with any luck ,jeter could certainly pass him. the next 5 years are key. say 1000 hits in 5 years would leave about 500 to go over 4-5 years if he played to age 45 like rose.
If Jeter wins a couple of more rings or a MVP and is instrumental in the yanks winning those WS, he needs to move up a bit.. The question is who would you drop down.. I belong to the current generation and haven’t watched mickey or Yogi play.. So I would say move him to no.4 (and thats only if ends up with a couple of more rings and probably a MVP) but I’m sure a lot of others who have watched Yogi and Mantle play will disagree with that.. Its a tough thing to rank players when they have played in different decades against different style of the game and to different ball parks.. In my opinion, Jeter will remain as no.1 to me and thats because i haven’t watched anyone else play.. May be it will change in 20 years time when someone else takes Jeter’s place..
1. Babe Ruth
2. Lou Gehrig
3. Joe DiMaggio
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Derek Jeter
6. Mariano Rivera
7. Yogi Berra
8. Whitey Ford
9. Bernie Williams
10. Lefty Gomez
One of the most amazing things about Joe D. is that for his entire career (13 yrs I think), he hit 361 HRs and K’d only 369 times. Can you imagine that? Look at most HR hitters, even those of today, and they K way more times than the # of HRs they hit. I think one year Donnie did that too. He had about the same # of Ks as HRs.
Mo is good.
Mo has been my favorite Yankee since 1999.
He is not as good as Whitey Ford, who may be considered the best postseason pitcher, ever.
eric-
i’d say gehrig represents the yankees the best of any player, but if i were starting a team i’d start with mantle.
it’s goes beyond the numbers. there was something about mantle that made everyone better around him. he had an intangible quality about him that led and inspired teammates. listen sometime how yogi talks about mantle.
it would be interesting to hear yogi’s top ten list.
repost to tex’s friend:
tex’s friend
September 10th, 2009 at 9:44 am
was it me, or did joba look like the old joba right after jeter gave him that tongue lashing in the first inning? We need that joba and not the one who has been sleepwalking the last month and a half.
======
bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
September 10th, 2009 at 11:09 am
No, it wasn’t just you.
Joba was dramatically better. He himself said delivery-wise, that’s the best he’s felt all season – which is saying something, since he’s had a few good outings in 2009, especially right after the All-Star Break.
You could see that coming, however.
Whatever Jeter or Eiland said, he re-focused, and started attacking with his FB. He did it in the ChiSox start, and even in the Toronto game (with worse results).
What’s encouraging from those starts – especially ChiSox – was that he was pushing through an extremely yeoman-like FB, which he’s been reluctant to do. Toronto he started fiddlng again, but he was attacking earlier in that game.
What happened last night is, the recommittment to establish his FB paid off – he started to get some run on it and was throwing 95 mph.
That is unquesTionable progress. He started to zip along – when was the last time we saw that?
To me, that wasn’t only progress, it was a thing of beauty. I just wish he would have been left in there for one more inning. He was zipping – and I wanted to see him sailing.
When Joba’s throwing his FB, working quickly, in 2-strike counts, he’s alright. I think he has turned a corner, and I look for him to pick up where he left off last night.
Especially encouraging when the player tells you: “That’s the best I’ve been with my delivery all year.”
That’s from the horse’s mouth. Very, very positive.
is this list subject to change or are the top 4-5 etched in stone? i can see yogi dropping down if jete and mo get 4-5 more rings. by then arod might be right up there.
MG — All due respect but older guys almost always think the older guys were better.
There are probably some old timers who would take Rizzuto over Jeter and Allie Reynolds over Mariano
Truth is in terms of true “greatness” Mariano should be # 3, but I can’t bring myself to do that…. yet. I guess I’m too old (51) to downgrade Joltin’ Joe and The Mick.
Gehrig is #1 500 RBI in 3 seasons nuff said
Good point Randy…everyone really did call him the “great teammate.” I just will always admire Gehrig for not having a problem being in Ruth (and Dimaggio’s shadow) and for what he said when he knew he was dying. For me, that’s the one player I wish I could have seen just once.
Dave Winfield gets no love?
I’m not saying top 10 but somebody doesn’t even have him in the top 25?
You can’t have Mattingly #10 and no mention of Winfield.
Davey Dave. I think he was Jeter’s favorite player growing up.
He did it all.
Pete,
It would be interesting to ask Yogi who he thinks the better all around ballplayer,Joe D. or Mickey.He would be the authority on that.
Dimag didn’t get to hit left-handed in Yankee Stadium.
Of course Babe Ruth started out as a Redsock.
from ages 36-41 Rose avgd about 185 hits per year. the next 6 years is where Jete has to match Pete. At that point approaching 4000 hits, he could catch him. Would that put him 2nd to Ruth?
No way Dimaggio is ahead of Mantle. Other than that, good list.
Eric,
When you finally make it to the next world, you can tell them you want to go back and see Gehrig. You can sit on his shoulder while he bats, from what I understand, lol.
Some guy was contacted, and his grandkids wanted to know what he was doing. SInce he had gone over less than a year from the contact, he was busy doing things he didn’t get to. Apparently, he was making the rounds, going all over the country to watch college football games he had always wanted to get to.
I know I will surely seek out the Ruth/Gehrig years, as well as the Globe Theater in London for the some of the early productions of Hamlet, etc.
I agree with SJ re: Joba Chamberlain.
He should be one of the earliest January arrivals in Tampa for workouts to strengthen his legs and re-focus his career.
If he were to look a videos, he’d see that C.C., Andy, and Mariano are prime examples of how to stay focused on a pitching mound.
Right now he has no clue. Living off Jobamania won’t cut it anymore.
I have to rank Rivera over Jeter.
no question.
I love DJ and it should be on this list but I am shocked by the “low” rank of Mariano.
Today, the Yankees can “buy” another great shortstop without too much problem (maybe not that of a leader) but you have plenty of them… You only have one Mo for the past 10 years…
Ok what if you could only pick on player from each decade.
11 players
0s Cheesbro
teens Pipp
20s Babe
30s Lou
40s Joe
50s Yogi
60s Mick
70s Thurm
80s Donnie
90s Mo
2000s Jeter
“No way Dimaggio is ahead of Mantle. Other than that, good list”
that’s you.
Dimaggio is considered to be the first 5-tool player in history of major league baseball. I will take Dimaggio
Better question…Least great (last 20 yrs, don’t remember bad players as well when I was a kid).
10. Wilson Betemet
9. Steve Karsay
8. Javy Vasquez
7. Jaret Wright
6. Chuck Knoblouch
5. Carl Pavano
4. Chris Hammond
3. Kevin Brown
2. Mel Hall
1. Carl Pavano
86w183
September 10th, 2009 at 11:31 am
MG — All due respect but older guys almost always think the older guys were better.
There are probably some old timers who would take Rizzuto over Jeter and Allie Reynolds over Mariano
Truth is in terms of true “greatness” Mariano should be # 3, but I can’t bring myself to do that…. yet. I guess I’m too old (51) to downgrade Joltin’ Joe and The Mick.
———————————–
Understandable but as much as I respect Mo and know he’s the best relief pitcher ever I still think Whitey was the greater Yankee, he is the best starting pitcher the Yankees have ever had and starting pitching always ranks higher than relief pitching in my book. There is nothing right or wrong here, of course…
Well, Alan,
Since he actually responded to Jeter/Eiland, started throwing 95 and missing bats, you might want to look at that as a positive for the young starter-in-the-making.
He said he was sorry he couldn’t get out there for the fourth, and that he felt better with his delivery than he has all season. Indeed, he wasn’t cutting of his own momentum like he has been, in his forward motion…probably why he was able to get into a rhythm and throw strikes with zip.
Thurman Munson, who was IMO the best catcher of his generation but died young.
And if I can ignore championships? Consider Mel Stottlemyre, who won 88 games for the 1965-1969 Yankees and had three 20-win seasons in that stretch of dark years, when the rest of the team suffered from a lack of talent and some pretty ugly injuries.
wow, reggie was only a yank for 5 years. thats hard to believe
William Buckner
September 10th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Better question…Least great (last 20 yrs, don’t remember bad players as well when I was a kid).
10. Wilson Betemet
9. Steve Karsay
8. Javy Vasquez
7. Jaret Wright
6. Chuck Knoblouch
5. Carl Pavano
4. Chris Hammond
3. Kevin Brown
2. Mel Hall
1. Carl Pavano
*****
Tanyon Sturtze!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It hurts with Sturtze!!!!!!!!
6. Chuck Knoblouch really?
where is ed whitson on the least top ten list?
Was talking to my dad who saw Gehrig play as a child. He’s a Jeter fan and thinks he’s a winning player but thinks Gehrig is being slighted when the 2 are compared in any way even if it’s just a hits total
His take was Gehrig offensively was a Pujols/A-Rod kind of player. The kind of guy other players marvelled at. Jeter is a winner who other players respect but don’t necessarily marvel at.
It does show peoples reference point is a factor of not only what the stats say but also how it looked when you were 10 or 12 years old.
Pete,
Love the blog. I would put Jeter ahead of both Berra and Mantle. Yes Berra and Mantle won more WS and had more homers. Jeter average is higher than both, he has more SB almost double of what Mantle has, has more hits than both, and most certainly carries and conducts himself off the field better than Mantle did. Berra was a 285 career hitter and both Berra and Mantle were great Yankees. Sometimes we need a player to retire before true appreciation comes. I think when Jeter hangs him up, we`ll really see the appreciation
1346 scott proctor
1705 hideki irabu
2640 kei igawa
4418 carl pavano
I agree with 1 thru 9 … have to have “The Chairman of the Board” in the top 10, without a doubt.
If it comes down to a choice between Munson and Mattingly for #10, I have to go with Munson. Both were Yankee Captains, beloved by the fans, MVP winners, Gold Glove winners, etc.
I would go with Munson by a nose because the Yankees won 3 straight pennants and back to back WS during his time as Captain and also out of respect for the fact that he was taken from us far too early. I love Donnie Baseball, but I would still pick Thurman ahead of him for those reasons.
Tony Womack
Jeter is the face of baseball. The most respected player in the game and it’s not because of his 4 world series rings, or all the numbers that he puts up. It’s more simple than that. It’s because you can HEAR Derek Jeter run to first base every at bat
How about
1. Babe Ruth
2. Lou Gehrig
3. Joe DiMaggio
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Yogi Berra
6. Derek Jeter
7. Whitey Ford
8. Mariano Rivera
9. Bill Dickey
10. Casey Stengel
(and a few slots down, you might add Joe Torre). Okay, not a player, but when you look at the all time greats that contributed in NY, you have to at least consider him. He won 10 pennants and 7 world championships. The Yankees even retired his number…
d’oh!
The 3 Yankees in my lifetime that I wanted to see at the plate with a bat in their hands during a critical time was The Mick, Munson, and Derek Jeter.
On the mound, Mariano.
So many deserve recognition but they all fall under Yankee tradition and greatness.
Whoa ease up on ol mel hall.
and take knoblauch off the loser list, he was the leadoff hitter for 3 championships.
No mention at all about Richie Sexson or Hideki Irabu.
What Joba says doesn’t mean much.
He has also said he has thrown “great” after starts when he clearly didn’t.
He says what he thinks folks want to hear in post-game interviews. That’s been well documented.
His season has been marked with significant bouts of lack of focus and inconsistency. Last night was another example of it.
Tough to say he “found it” last night based on quotes.
Let’s see if his next start shows progress. He’s running out of time to show why he should be in the rotation in the post-season.
Wasn’t it just a year ago that Jeter “won” the player’s poll for most over-rated player? I don’t see anyone saying that now that he has numbers in addition to his eve present intangibles.
“MG — All due respect but older guys almost always think the older guys were better.
There are probably some old timers who would take Rizzuto over Jeter and Allie Reynolds over Mariano”
The same thing might be said about younger guys who think the modern player is better because they never saw those older players in games.
Don’t forget Kenny Lofton
Not to mention most of the ’69-’73 teams.
Uncle E – need to tweak your handle
Kei Igawa – Carl Pavano – Kevin Brown – Tony Womack – Nick Green
“Let’s see if his next start shows progress. He’s running out of time to show why he should be in the rotation in the post-season.”
Who are you going start in his place come the 2nd round or WS?
Good list Pete. I do wonder if Whitey Ford is too low and Yogi too high.
Whitey should be higher than Yogi, IMO. People now don’t realize how great Whitey Ford was – unfortunately he didn’t win 300 games and that obscures the total of his accomplishment. But Whitey was great.
I think both Whitey and Jeter should be higher than Yogi.
It’s a tough call between Yogi and Bill Dickey but I think Yogi comes out on top.
Two other guys who have to deserve strong consideration were Earle Coombs and Tony Lazzeri.
Jorge Posada is making a very good case as well as does Bernie. They’re right there with Coombs and Lazzeri. Both Posada and Bernie have a better case to be in the top 10 than Mattingly, IMO. The back injury wasn’t his fault but it still irreparably shaped his career.
One of the striking things about the list is how many up the middle players are in the conversation to be in the yankee top 10.
Pitching and dominant up the middle play have been the most fundamental part of the teams success through the decades. More than LH power hitters. The Dynasty teams of the 1990′s were a dynasty due to their up the middle play arguably more than anything else – including pitching.
Look at how many CF, catchers, and SS/2b could be in the yankees top 10. You can make a real argument that among the 10-15 greatest yankees three were CF, three catchers, one a SS and one a 2b. That is just amazing.
That’s the great secret to what made this franchise what it is.
1. Lou Gehrig
2. Babe Ruth
3. Mickey Mantle
4. Joe DiMaggio
5. Derek Jeter
6. Whitey Ford
7. Yogi Berra
8. Mariano Rivera
9. Elston Howard
10. Don Mattingly
Lefty Gomez was certainly the most underrated Yankee of all time (unless you wanna say Dickey is, which you could) and I love his inclusion on the list in theory, but in practice, it’s absolutely unfathomable to put him over Donnie Baseball. Nobody puts Donnie in the corner! haha
If I had to do the next 5 (top 15) I think Gomez would probably come after Bernie on mine, though obviously I’m biased. What I can’t decide about is if Munson should be ahead of Bernie as well.
Team since Mantle retired:
not in batting order
Jeter ss
Willie 2b
Thurm c
Bernie CF
Alex 3b
Reggie RF
Donnie 1b
White/Pinella Lf (Damon?)
Johnny Damon has the chance to join a very exclusive club: players to win a championship with the Redsocks and then win with the Yankees.
Wade Boggs might be on top of an even better list: players to NOT win a championship with the Redsocks and then win with the Yankees.
Can’t start a guy who can’t give you more than 2-3 innings in the post-season. It’s not a merit system.
It’s about production. Girardi said as much the other day.
Joba hasn’t pitched well for his last 7 starts. He has 3-4 more starts to show improvement.
If he can’t, and there are other guys pitching better, they move ahead in the pecking order.
Personally, I think he’s best served coming out of the bullpen in the post-season.
Perhaps that will get his aggressiveness back. Starting certainly isn’t helping in that regard.
1. Babe Ruth
2. Lou Gehrig
3. Mickey Mantle
4. Joe DiMaggio
5. Yogi Berra
6. Derek Jeter
7. Whitey Ford
8. Mariano Rivera
9. Thurman Munson
10. Don Mattingly.
#1 and #2 are pretty much the consensus, I think. Mantle and DiMaggio are really neck-and-neck. They have the exact same OPS, which is amazing. I went with Mantle for now, but that could change the more I think about it. Yogi at #5 seems to be a consensus too.
Jeter is #6 because he’s a direct descendant of Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle. The face of the Yankees. He has the stats and rings to back it up too, although he hasn’t performed as well as those guys did (yet, at least).
Although Rivera has arguably been the most indispensible Yankee over the past 14 seasons, it’s tough to put him over a legend like Whitey Ford, who’s a starter.
I think the Top 8 is clear cut. I picked Munson and Mattingly mostly for personal reasons. Munson was my dad’s favorite player and Donnie Baseball was mine.
Guys like Reggie and A-Rod may have been greater players, but because they didn’t come up through the system, they’ll never be greater Yankees than these guys.
Uncle E-
Slipping MPB Johnny Damon in there was VERY smooth
oh, and how could I forget Elston Howard? Shame on me! Greatness really defines these pinstripes, especially among catchers….taking a moment to bask in the Yankee aura and mystique!
I don’t have time to read the whole thread, but scrolling up a few posts, I do have to say I’m a bit shocked by how few people mention Munson…people who have been fans far longer than I and no doubt know way more about the game than I, that is…I did not even get to see him play.. I guess we all have different priorities we keep in mind when we make lists like this, that’s whats so fun about making them!
I just wanted to interject that with all of the coverage surrounding Derek and his chase of this Yankees record, how privileged we all are.
Here we sit, typing lists of the Greatest Yankees Ever and not only are there tons of names in the debate but so many of them are from this generation of players. We truly are the luckiest fans in the world to get to watch this team, day in and day out, season after season, take the field. I feel honored to even have the opportunity to watch what is happening now. Last season, I went to the game where Derek set the record for the most hits ever at Yankee Stadium and last night I had goose bumps watching the crowd chant The Captain’s name. I think its probably pretty rare in sports that the fans can feel the type of pride for their team and organization that I feel for the Yankees.
I don’t go out there and swing a bat, I don’t work for the organization in any respect, I don’t even make it to more than 20 games a year in person, but boy do I feel like I’m a part of something special when it comes to this team. Its really incredible…we are absolutely the luckiest fans in the world.
Erica – always OPPC
September 10th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Uncle E-
Slipping MPB Johnny Damon in there was VERY smooth
It was either him or Chad Curtis – Ha!
Really he may be the best choice fo LF.
1. Gherig
2. Ruth
3. Jeter
4. DiMaggio
5. Mantle
6. Berra
7. Rivera
8. Ford
9. Mattingly
10. Williams
I`ll go with
Ruth
Gehrig
Dimaggio
Jeter
Ford
Rivera
Berra
Mantle
Dicky
Gomez
“Can’t start a guy who can’t give you more than 2-3 innings in the post-season. It’s not a merit system.
It’s about production. Girardi said as much the other day.
Joba hasn’t pitched well for his last 7 starts. He has 3-4 more starts to show improvement.
If he can’t, and there are other guys pitching better, they move ahead in the pecking order.
Personally, I think he’s best served coming out of the bullpen in the post-season.
Perhaps that will get his aggressiveness back. Starting certainly isn’t helping in that regard.”
I asked you who are you going to start in his place as Joba’s problems have been talked to death here?
SJ44
September 10th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
What Joba says doesn’t mean much.
He has also said he has thrown “great” after starts when he clearly didn’t.
He says what he thinks folks want to hear in post-game interviews. That’s been well documented.
His season has been marked with significant bouts of lack of focus and inconsistency. Last night was another example of it.
Tough to say he “found it” last night based on quotes.
Let’s see if his next start shows progress. He’s running out of time to show why he should be in the rotation in the post-season.
=======
When the player specifically references his delivery, and an ease he hadn’t felt all year,
and that ease of delivery is evident for the viewer, not to mention the results:
throwing
95, run on his FB that hasn’t been there since post-AS break, getting batters to swing and miss when he has been previously mediocre, etc.
Then the viewer, if he is intelligent, can see for himself that what the player said has an evidential reference that the viewer actually witnessed.
That has nothing at all to do with Chamberlain saying that he “felt great” after other starts.
One is a fluff, automatic answer that addresses “feeling.”
The other is a specific reference to his delivery, which was irrefutably producing results we haven’t seen since post All-Star break, and which were, dramatically different than what was seen in last night’s first inning.
I wasn’t aware anyone said he “found it,” but I don’t think we need anyone to confirm that Joba found something that drastically transformed what he was able to do with his FB.
If Joba can repeat that, Joba will be on his way to building something important for himself and for the Yankees.
posada my up seat Berra some day- he has great offensive numbers for a catcher
“White/Pinella Lf (Damon?)”
Needs more Rickey! White’s the man, though, another MASSIVELY underrated Yankee.
and Graig Nettles is on the bench of my All-Time Post-Mantle Yankee team. I’d send him in for Alex for defense any time an opposing batter appeared likely to hit a foul popup. lolz
also, Pete mentioned Pettitte in his post, as much as I luuurve Andy, he definitely would not crack my top 15. And i think if you consider Andy, you have to consider Posada equally if not even a little bit more.
Matsui Duh me
Ricky
Winfield both played alot in left
I’ll go with Ricky
“I asked you who are you going to start in his place as Joba’s problems have been talked to death here?”
If it comes to that, they go with a three man rotation. CC can probably start on short rest. It makes managing the bullpen trickier, however.
That said, Joba will most definitely start if they make it to the ALCS and WS. But he will be kept on a very short leash.
“posada my up seat Berra some day- he has great offensive numbers for a catcher”
Do you guys realize that Yogi was the AL MVP three times?
Donnie not being on that top ten bothers me. I think it is only a product of the lack of championships. Donnie did all he could to get his team there George and co never gave him the pitching. 94 without the strike he would have had his best shot. Buck S. pitching around Griffey in 95 maybe Donnie gets his ring there too. No back injury? Donnie might have had the same 4 rings Jeter has.
I look at these things that Pete said:
“My criteria was years spent with the team, championships won and where the player stood in terms of the competition at the time.”
Donnie spent plenty of time with the Yanks. And as far as competition at the time it would be silly to thing there was another player in baseball in his era on the same level as a pre injury Mattingly. Also factor in that possibly every other major star and every first baseman that he was compared to in his time has either been found guilty of or is surrounding by PED rumors and I think Don should be on the list.
I would NEVER EVER put Andy on this or any other top Yankee list or Alex, both are PED users and we have enough of a great history on the Yankees to never have to include any of these types of guys.
But it is Pete’s list so it is his top ten. Lists are made to create talk, this one did.
1. Ruth – Greatest player ever
2. MO – the best at what he did
3. Gerigh – Iron horse, 2nd all time hits
4. Dimaggio – first 5-tool player ever
5. Mantle
6. Maris
7. Yogi
8. Reggie – Mr. October, big personality
9. Jeter
10. Ford
Ricky was only a Yankee for 4 years.
My personal cut-off is 5 years on the team.
Winfield
“Do you guys realize that Yogi was the AL MVP three times?”
Exactly. Yogi’s spot as a Top 5 Yankee is secure unless Jeter ends up with 6+ rings, wins an MVP, and gets to 4,000 hits, or if Rivera pitches until he’s 50.
Um, no. Ricky Ledee was a very nice role player on some good teams, but an all-time Yankee???? Sorry, no.
Dimaggio – first 5-tool player ever –
I find this hard to believe
So 80% chance of rain tomorrow night……what if it gets rained out?
Umm, anyone watching Sportscenter this hour? If so, can you shoot me an IM or email? I got a question…
Nick in SF in Santa Rosa
September 10th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Um, no. Ricky Ledee was a very nice role player on some good teams, but an all-time Yankee???? Sorry, no.
That double against the Mets!
joba looked like he started to get that edge back last night and i think girardi took him out instead of going 4 to let him leave on something positive. joba needs to be intense, to scream and walk around the mount, and fist pump. It’s like his mojo and losing that also lost 5 mph on his fastball. He will be the 4th starter in the playoffs.
I don’t email people who don’t email back.
Nick Tuturro
Struck out EPBF Johnny Damon. Yesterday
But Johnny won the game (stickball)
Furthermore Rickey Henderson had zero class…..
Cash,
true cant minimize 3 MVPS
I pretty much agree with the top 6 on your list Pete. These are a lock.
1. Babe Ruth
2. Lou Gehrig (If he could have played 4 or 5 more years, he’d be #1)
3. Joe DiMaggio
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Yogi Berra
6. Derek Jeter
Now, one thing about the Yankees with all their history & legends is that the list of players who could fill out the rest of that top 10 has its own top 10 list that people can already argue about.
There are a bunch I really can’t leave off the list including (in no particular order) Dickey, Whitey, Mo, Bernie, Donnie Baseball, The Scooter. Posada & Pettitte are close, probably more so when they retire. A-Rod, Tex, even CC are new or relatively new but should get there in the next 6-8 years. but they’re not there yet.
Munson? Murcer? Lazzeri? Combs? Igawa? Elston? Guidry, Reggie, Goose or O’Neill could be argued for consideration on list as well but they were at the top of their games or on the roster for a shorter time.
Then, do you also include dynasty era managers such as Huggins, Stengel, Torre?
I can’t even decide the tail end of my top 10 list for the rest of the top 10 list. And I probably missed a few too.
1.Carl Pavano
2.Hideki Irabu
3.Jason Giambi
4.Chuck Knobloch
5.Jaret Wright
6.Kei Igawa
7.Kevin Mass
8.Felix Heridia
9.Kevin Brown
10.Shane Spencer
ANSKY: included Igawa to see if anyone was paying attention? Or was that a shout-out for his status as our greatest AAA pitcher ever?
Tom – great number 10 pick
Good morning (esp. Doreen), lots of good talk.
-The Brewers? It’s cute and only slightly more contrived than what the Yankees do. They’ve got a young core and the LeBronze is probably their favorite player who also likes to do the contrived playacting bit. The difference is the Cavs do it before the game, which hasn’t even been won yet. Yuck. A walkoff? Now that’s something to celebrate. In general, baseball players are too sensitive. You notice this kind of stuff doesn’t bother the Yankees when it’s done to them? That’s because there are more important things to worry about.
-SJ interesting take on the Joba thing. I haven’t watched the first 3 innings yet, but I’ll be interested to see if Joba snapped to attention after the “tongue-lashing” by Jeter (now that’s how you do it, you tell the player to his face). There certainly was a difference in the box score and several people have said that he worked more quickly.
-Sorry, Rivera and Jeter? Jeter’s above Rivera. Jeter played in as many games as his body and mangager would allow and plays such an important position. Rivera’s the best at what he does, no one better. But often times, the outcome is “predetermined” by the time we see Rivera. Jeter’s fingerprints (along with the other position players) are all over every game.
tex’s friend
September 10th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
joba looked like he started to get that edge back last night and i think girardi took him out instead of going 4 to let him leave on something positive. joba needs to be intense, to scream and walk around the mount, and fist pump. It’s like his mojo and losing that also lost 5 mph on his fastball. He will be the 4th starter in the playoffs.
========
In nearly all of Joba’s more successful outings, he would reach a barrier point where his velocity would rise, he would begin to work more quickly, and his whole delivery would be of a piece.
In his previous min-starts, he wasn’t able to reach that point. Last night, he got there in the 2nd inning.
For me, it’s irrelevant whether Jeter’s words coaxed something out of him that freed him to be more natural in his motion – thus yielding velocity/movement/command, or whether it just happened.
The point is, we saw that sort of barrier break that always leads to him experiencing a spike and said movement/command, which then leads to the rest of his pitching arsenal falling into place.
Before last night, that hadn’t happened AT ALL in these shorter stints.
I would have loved to see one more inning, and I think Girardi could have deviated slightly from the plan to allow that to happen.
But the important thing is, it happened; we saw it. Chances are, it will happen again.
That is a world of encouragement. Joba has to set up off his FB. He hasn’t been able to do that, because it has stunk since those impressive post-All-Star week starts.
Where did it go? I don’t know – but it was back last night. That can only be good.
Why are Spencer and Maas getting the business?
so they didn’t pan out…on a list with Pavano and Brown??
I cry foul!
And lol, I love when he’s fist pumping.
Because it’s a natural expression from adrenaline that’s pumping through him when he’s on.
Spencer and Maas don’t belong on that list.
Who knows what was said to Phil’s face?
Johnny Damon is a great baseball hero, teammate, and motivator.
I think Joba will continue to be a mystery until all of a sudden, after about 5 consecutive strong starts, he and everyone else realizes he is a star. Until then he will remain an enigma.
I don’t know if that starts in the post season, next season, or in 2011, but he is way too talented for the Yankees to give up on. Even pitching the way he has the second half he is a better than average AL #4 or #5 starter and has a virtually unlimited ceiling.
Oh, and randy l,
What were you thinking? Cash shouldn’t allow Wang to travel with the team? Do you fear the Yankees will harm him even more or do you think he’ll be a detriment, distraction to the team?
IDK, I think those guys love Wang.
Nick in SF in Santa Rosa
September 10th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Who knows what was said to Phil’s face?
Johnny Damon is a great baseball hero, teammate, and motivator.
Damon’s comment about Phil = the most overblown discussion topic on ths board (but I like the jokes)
Nothing pleases me more (in re: LoHud commenting) than agreeing with commenter m. She is right about Wang and randy is wrong. Yay!
We don’t know if there was a “barrier break” until we see his next start.
Last night was basically a microcosm of most of his starts this year. Start off slow, shake off the catcher, and then get in a little groove. Usually after someone, whether is Jeter, Girardi, Eiland or one of the catchers, gets in his grill.
Bottom line, Joba’s comments not withstanding, he has had trouble all year finishing his delivery. Doing it for 20 pitches isn’t good enough.
I’ve watched all of his starts. I said in June, his lack of conditioning has contributed to his issues re: repeating his delivery. I’ve proven to be correct since his legs rarely get into his pitches these days.
Girardi talked about it a few weeks ago about how his inability to repeat his delivery leads to all of his other problems.
IMO, its very premature to say Joba is “back” based on his two innings after the first last night. We have seen him “snap back” in other starts, after damage has already been done.
All I’m saying is, words mean little. Its about production.
At this point in the season, if he can’t produce, you can’t put him in a position in the post-season to hurt the team.
This isn’t about his future abilities. That is another subject for another day.
Its about what to expect from him in October.
Right now, whether you are a Joba apologist, hater or in between those two extremes, nobody knows what he can bring in October off his last 7 starts.
If you are the Yankees, that’s a concern.
What….No Kevin Maas on that list Pete…
Uncle Ellsworth: I basically agree with you, except I think Posadagate is more overblown.
But m gets so darn steamed about it (“it still makes my blood boil”) and continues to bring it up, so additional commentary is not optional.
It helps if you can picture her crinkling her nose in considered fury.
I don’t think anybody, certainly not the Yankees, is “giving up” on Joba.
He’s also not a “star” either. I think that’s part of the problem.
I know its part of the problem with regard to how other players in the game view him.
He’s not a star. He’s been overhyped to beat the band and frankly, that hasn’t helped him.
He’s a young kid learning how to pitch at the major league level and has hit a valley in his developement.
Some of that was physical, due to his shoulder injury. Some if it is mental. His lack of focus on the mound is disconcerting and that’s one reason why Jeter got in his face last night.
Another part of the problem is, the hype hasn’t matched the substance very much this year.
In a perfect world, Joba would not be in the Yankees playoff rotation. He would be getting ready for Fall Ball and looking to build on learning his craft.
The Yankees dilemma is, what do you do with him if he can’t give you many innings in the post-season due to his inconsistencies? Its an issue.
Is it the most pressing issue in the post-season for the Yankees? No. However, its an issue just the same.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....ng9/090910
Joba headlines the young hurlers (that sometimes makes us want to hurl).
The only thing is that Crasnick thinks the long first inning taxed the bullpen. Hello? Just added one more inning. And Ace (sigh) & Alby did great.
Overblown because Hughes has never had an issue with “toughness”.
That’s why it’s a ridiculous premise.
Hughes had ice water in his veins when I first laid eyes on him at Trenton in 2006.
It enabled him to come in and shut it down in front of 50,000 maniacs in Old Yankee Stadium in relief of Clemens to beat the Indians in an elimination playoff game.
Hughes had trouble in that Baltimore start because his cutter was like a fatted capon for those left-handed hitters. I was there – he had a bad, bad afternoon, and that is all.
The idea that Damon transplanted his own will into Hughes by saying a couple of words to him is the height of stupidity, and anyone who buys it is laughably gullible, because while that might arouse the player’s ire and get an immediate result – it certainly won’t sustain it if the player has no guts.
Gee, Nettles used to start walking toward the mound when Goose was in trouble. Nettles knew Gossage would snarl: “Get the **** out of here,” and proceed to get out of trouble.
Nettles didn’t “give” Goose his ability to get anyone out, but he knew how to tick him off, lol.
Nick in SF in Santa Rosa
September 10th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Uncle Ellsworth: I basically agree with you, except I think Posadagate is more overblown.
I thought there was a moratorium on this topic.
Any word on D-Rob?
Some of you people really overrate closers. I shouldnt be surprised after seeing how many people want Hughes and/or Joba to stay in the pen long term. Mo is the greatest closer of all time. A first ballot HOF’er. But he’s not more important than the great or even good players that play 9 innings a game, every game.
Pete, great list.
Munson has to be #10. Lefty has great stats but Munson was the key to the 70′s run of three series appearences,two titles. And before they started winning, Munson was the hope of countless fans who labored trhough the Horace Clark era. Lefty was a geat pitcher, HOF in fact but was surrounded by countless stars. But Munson was the man who put the team on his back. Reggie, sorry, Thurm was the straw who stirred the drinks in the 1970′s.
I know we all have different qualifications which is what makes this discussion awesome, but personally, I don’t care how not-enough time Rickey spent with the Yankees, or how little class he had. He’s still one of the greatest Yankees I’ve ever seen play in my lifetime. For me Winfield has absolutely nothing on him, not even close. I remember being a kid and just gaping at him, I couldn’t believe what he could do and I was too young to understand about his lack of class.. or young enough to appreciate him for what he was..however you choose to look at it.
I know alot of people dont care for him but for me, he’s a huge part of my Yankee memories. Long live Rickey (in pinstripes!)
http://sports.espn.go.com/stat.....id=4461971
Listening to Baseball Today’s podcast. Feat. Girardi, but haven’t gotten to his part yet…
i’d put Lou at #1
Pride of the Yankees – says it all
SJ you are on the money with Joba and have been all year. I’m on the extreme that he has no business being a starter this year – or next – because his slider feeds off his fastball. When his fastball is in the low 90′s his slider is awful.
Flaherty made the point last night that hittes around the league know to lay off the slider. If it’s a good slider it’s going to be a ball. If it’s a bad one – it’s going to get crushed.
Regardless, the issue at hand is Postseason. It’s clear he will not be starting in the ALDS. What do you see his role to be in that round? If Robertson is not okay does Joba get the 6th/7th inning? Does Joba get the 7th inning regardless?
Uncle: a real moratorium would be nice and intellectually appropriate. I did request that people not stir things up last night, is that what you’re talkong about?
I don’t give my request much/any credit for what followed, btw, at least not compared to other factors.
m-
injured players in the clubhouse are a touchy subject sometimes.
it’s something you won’t read about in the papers.
it’s like in your own life having someone around who’s had something bad happen to them and you want to support them and you do, but you can’t do it 24/7 because you have other stuff you have to do.
i’m sure there’s not a yankee player who doesn’t support wang , and it’d be great if he’s there sometimes( like when they celebrate #27), but all the time especially road games makes no sense to me.
http://yankees.auction.mlb.com.....=109088932
Get your bids in. It is at $2500. I looks like real belt, not the toy.
Mickey Mantle was greater than Joe DiMaggio. Lefty Gomez is not in the top 10.
bodhi,
Don’t forget the defense in that Baltimore game. Remember Swisher sailing it over Hughes’ head? (although Hughes himself failed to cover on another play, I think).
The two guys on this podcast are arguing about Joba.
Uncle E-
Gotta disagree with your choice of RF…How about O’Neill over Reggie. More rings, more seasons, a batting title, and a better attitude!
“Get your bids in. It is at $2500. I looks like real belt, not the toy.”
If it does not go for $100,000 it would be a bummer.
If it goes for $5000 it will shoot up dramatically after the Yanks win the series. I’ll see if I have it lying around.
Here’s a helpful chart that lists some key stats for the All-Time Yankee greats (click on resulting image to enlarge):
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Oops. Old habit to break up the http. Trying again:
http://i120.photobucket.com/al.....5214PM.jpg
Hughes had an issue earlier in the year with getting down on himself after getting knocked around. He had it last year too.
Girardi has said as much and so has Hughes.
Did Johnny Damon’s “talk” snap him out of it? On its own, no.
But, it did make him realize that part of his game needed fixing and he fixed it.
He fixed before going to the bullpen when he did a much better job limiting damage than he had done the past 1+ seasons.
Its a lot different facing and succeeding at the ML level than it is AA.
I think Crasnick’s story is a very good one.
Look without getting into another polarizing debate about Joba, there are plenty of people in the game who think he is better suited to the bullpen because of his temperment.
Me? I’ve always a Joba to the rotation guy. But, I reserve the right to change my mind until I see him in the spring.
Potential is a nice word and everybody loves using it. However, potential means little at the major league level.
Its about production.
Will Joba improve as a starter? Will he be better conditioned next year? Will he be able to repeat his delivery for 100+ pitches? We don’t know those answers.
He’s averaged 5 innings a start this year. He’s playing on a team that has won 75% of its game over the last 3+ months and can barely get wins.
He has gotten worse instead of better as the season has gone on with a team in which every player has improved this year.
Some guys take to starting and are able to make the adjustments necessary to be a quality starting pitcher. Other guys don’t.
Like I said, I reserve the right to change my mind about Joba’s future role until ST 2010.
If he does what he needs to do to improve, I think he can be an excellent starting pitcher.
If he is the same guy he is right now? He’s better suited for the bullpen.
Time will tell which way it ends up.
randy l,
Seeing as this team could possibly “touch” 110 wins
, I don’t think having Wang around is a distraction or a reminder of anything.
And how cool is it to have a Taiwanese cheerleader?
Eric
September 10th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Uncle E-
Gotta disagree with your choice of RF…How about O’Neill over Reggie. More rings, more seasons, a batting title, and a better attitude!
OK your perogative.
I like Pauly too.
“Uncle: a real moratorium would be nice and intellectually appropriate.”
i think when the unemployment rate declines,some subjects will , like the recession , be in the rear view mirror.
Well, SJ and those who continue to bludgeon Joba to death are going to have to live with the fact that he’s going to pitch in the ALCS if the Yanks get there.
No, probably not the ALDS because they can pitch their top three guys on regular rest.
But you’re nuts if you think Mitre or Gaudin is going to get a Game 4 ALCS start over Joba.
Not a chance.
Joba still has time to figure things out. Hell, the ALCS is still a month away if they get there.
I can see Joba getting a relief stint in the ALDS and pitching well, which in turn will give him a big boost that he can take to the ALCS.
How about we change the focus to:
the 10 biggest busts in Yankee history, you know, the top 10 Pavanos and Igawas.
Charlie Keller and Tommy Henrich were both better Yankee OF’s than Paulie was.
Randy,
Wang is a really popular guy in the clubhouse. I think the team wants him there, home and the road, throughout the post-season.
You are correct, injured players are a touchy subject. When Carl Pavano was in perpetual rehab mode, the players hated having him around.
Some even complained to Cashman and wanted him banned from the clubhouse.
Its not like that with Wang. All of the guys want him to feel like he’s part of the team.
Its not his fault he got hurt and things went sour for him after that.
I think every player fears what happened to Wang could happen to them.
That’s why I think its good for Wang and the team to have him around throughout the post-season.
It gives Jeter another target to bust chops to since he loves kidding around with Wang.
Can Francesca be any more sarcastic?
1. Carl Pavano
2. Jaret Wright
3. Mel Hall
4. Ed Whiston
5. Tony Womack
6. Juan Acevado
7. Ed Yarnall
8. Kei Igawa
9. Carlos Almanzar
10. Joe Oliver
“Lefty has great stats but Munson was the key to the 70’s run of three series appearences,two titles. ”
Lefty Gomez was only “great stats?”
What the heck does that mean? Because it seems to imply that Gomez wasn’t a critical part to what was arguably the greatest dynasty in the history of baseball.
Gomez won 5 rings. 5. That included 4 WS victories in a row. He was arguably the ace pitcher on 4 of those championship teams.
Lefty Gomez has the 15th highest winning percentage of any pitcher in major league history.
Gomez won the pitching triple crown – not once – but twice. Think about that.
Let me put that in context for you. Since the end of the deadball era, only 5 modern pitchers have ever won the pitching triple crown more than once in their careers. Lefty Gomez was one of them. The others – Walter Johnson, Left Grove, Sand Koufax and Roger Clemens.
Are you seriously saying that level of performance is only “stats.”
Did Munson ever remotely come close to that level of brilliance and domination?
I never saw Muson play. So when I look back at his career I can equally just say he was only stats and just dismiss the level of his production as a figment of numbers.
I would like to see included in the list
my favorites growing up and definitely true yankees
Billy Martin and the captains – Munson, Guidry, Randolph and Mattingly
m
September 10th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
bodhi,
Don’t forget the defense in that Baltimore game. Remember Swisher sailing it over Hughes’ head? (although Hughes himself failed to cover on another play, I think).
The two guys on this podcast are arguing about Joba.
====
m,
I don’t recall the Swisher play, but the main thing was in ineffectiveness of the cutter that day. Woeful, is how I would put it.
My point is, I don’t put a lot of credence in speculation about a player’s mental disposition; you cannot verify what that is. Even more to the point, if a player becomes maddeningly diffident – as per Joba in these mini starts – you just don’t know the origin of that – is it physical? What come first?
There is no way of knowing this, so to me, it’s a fool’s errand.
Why not stick with what we CAN verify, by looking with our eyes?
Joba broke a velo barrier last night in the 2nd inning. He has not been able to do that in these discouraging min-starts.
Remember how good he was at getting himself out of trouble earlier? He would flirt with disaster, and then we would use his guile and abilities to escape.
What has happened MORE recently, has been an inability to do that: that has been a concern – having nowhere to go once in trouble.
He hasn’t been able – until last night – to unleash a superior FB; it had all but disappeared since making those longer post-All-Star starts.
So what we saw last night, is NOT more of the same, as SJ44 contends: we saw something that has not occurred AT ALL in the mini starts; we saw him rebound dramatically from another mediocre first inning.
That is progress. That is something the player can build on, next time he goes out.
Phil
September 10th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Charlie Keller and Tommy Henrich were both better Yankee OF’s than Paulie was
this was part of a post 1968 discussion.
Everyone knows Wang was really hurt, there is no doubting that. I don’t think anyone believes that Carl was really hurt (surgery or no surgery). Especially given the fact that he has pitched the entire year. It only proves their thinking was correct that he couldn’t handle pitching in NY.
Hey maybe we can pool our money and buy the belt, We each have it a week.
is there a vid game where you can put all these guys on a team and play them against other All – star teams
betsy September 10th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Can Francesca be any more sarcastic?
====================
I know. lol
Oh that diet coke
I hardly think I’m “bludgeoning” Joba to death. Unlike others, I’m throwing bouquets to him for 7 bad outings in a row.
Fact is, the other day Girardi, when given a chance to say Joba would be in the rotation for the post-season the other day, didn’t offer a guarantee. He left the question open. He gave no endorsement to Joba starting in the post-season.
There is no guarantee he will start in the ALDS if he continues to pitch like he has.
In fact, the Yankees would be better off if he was able to start, and be effective, in the ALCS.
They may have to choose the other schedule in large part because Joba is not pitching well.
Its an advantage to the Yankees to extend the Tigers to their #4 starter in the post-season.
Joba’s struggles may preclude them from doing so and that lessens the pitching advantage the Yankees have with the Tigers.
Come the close of baseball business on October 3rd, the Yankees will have somewhere north of 100 wins. Whataver happens in the future, I’m glad one of those wins is officially credited to Chien-ming Wang.
I can see Joba getting a relief stint in the ALDS and pitching well, which in turn will give him a big boost that he can take to the ALCS.
=====
Especially if he can find what we saw last night.
I’m finding it silly that the elephant in the room – the return of a very good fastball – is being dismissed by people here: it’s Joba’s lifeblood as far as being an effective pitcher.
If he can repeat the delivery that produced those results, he’s on his way.
I still find it funny that Damon called Phil out, but he refuses to call Joba out…I don’t know what it means, but I’m less than thrilled.
Phil is a kid, so of course at times he’s going to get down on himself, but his basic personality is being calm and unflappable. What he did in the 2007 ALDS is still very impressive. I don’t know if this blog was around at the time, but I know on the message boards I go to, people were incredibly impressed that a 20 year old would go into a packed Yankee Stadium and shut down a very good team. The fact that the Yankees were down already and that he only pitched a few innings doesn’t take anything away from that performance…..
M, re: Rivera and Jeter, that’s just my opinion….we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I’m “not” throwing bouquets to him. Sorry for the typo.
SJ,
I’ve always said that the best thing to do (and the only fair thing to do) is to let Joba try to be a starter. If he can’t do it, make him a reliever. He wouldn’t be the first.
Having said that, it’s obvious he can start when everything falls into place, when all the stars are aligned perfectly.
I think he can do it. My objection was letting this all play out in the majors when many other pitchers would’ve been toiling in the minors. Perhaps Joba’s star was too bright?
But it’s obvious when Joba simplifies things, he can get outs. Joba needs to work on simplifying things.
Looking back, Aceves would’ve been a starter. And Joba would’ve been fine tuning and controlling his innings in Scranton after hitting the proverbial wall. And back up before Sept. 1st.
But that’s all water under the bridge.
The Yanks are 41 games over .500. The Rays are 4 games over. What a difference a year makes. Life is good. (unless you’re Joba
)
Phil
September 10th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Charlie Keller and Tommy Henrich were both better Yankee OF’s than Paulie was
—————————————–
actually they weren’t. If there was the same media coverage back then as today ‘King Kong’ would be Nick Swisher at best. ‘Ole Reliable’ is probably a notch higher but Paulie was the better all around player than both of them.
Nick in SF in Santa Rosa
September 10th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Come the close of baseball business on October 3rd, the Yankees will have somewhere north of 100 wins. Whataver happens in the future, I’m glad one of those wins is officially credited to Chien-ming Wang.
Bravo on this comment.
Hey maybe we can pool our money and buy the belt, We each have it a week.
========================
We can use it for the real fans vs. fake fans fight under the O’Neill banner. Give it to the winner
I still STILL laugh at that. Blog memories
clarification (Joba to Scranton after the ASB, I would’ve started him out in the Bronx all over again)
SJ,
Read my post again.
Never said a word about Joba starting in the ALDS. In fact, I said just the opposite.
But he will start in the ALCS because there is no better alternative.
1. Mickey Rivers
2. Mickey Rivers
3. Mickey Rivers
4. Mickey Rivers
5. Mickey Rivers
6. Mickey Rivers
7. Mickey Rivers
8. Mickey Rivers
9. Mickey Rivers
10. Mickey Rivers
I like Don Mattingly, too.
Bod,
Joba has had periods during this year when he “found” his fastball.
You act as if he is going to throw 95 from hereon out. Perhaps he will.
However, at least to date, that has not happened.
Until we see his next start, we don’t know if he has “found his fastball” again.
If he comes out throwing 90-91 again in the first inning of his next start, then getting a few fastballs up in velocity in last nights start means little.
Until we see his next start, its impossible to know if he rediscovered his fastball or not.
betsy, you weren’t the only one I was disagreeing with.
SJ44
September 10th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
I hardly think I’m “bludgeoning” Joba to death. Unlike others, I’m throwing bouquets to him for 7 bad outings in a row.
====
No, but you do appear to be invested in your own narrative on Joba.
The guy was better in those last two innings – he was able to throw a 95 mph FB with run and rise to it. Guys were missing it.
You have to look at what’s been happening lately, and lately, that thing had disappeared. Poof.
Last night, he was bringing it. That gives me hope that something may have clicked that he could bring into his next start, because it’s based in a fact which actually was witnessed.
You said you can’t dismiss the first inning – but you’re dismissing the 2nd and 3rd.
He’s a young pitcher, and you look for progress. The 2nd and 3rd innings were progress from the 1st inning that you appear to believe is somehow more valid.
“Seeing as this team could possibly “touch” 110 wins , I don’t think having Wang around is a distraction or a reminder of anything.”
m-
pro baseball players depend on a fearlessness and a positive thinking that borders on denial at times.
did you read pete’s article?
wang said he thought the shoulder injury was caused by pitching with the weak foot. the whole wang issue is a sore subject and a can of worms that likely will get worse before it’s resolved this next winter.
i just think taking wang on road trips is wasted energy. what’s the point?
if we can debate different sides of it like we are, what makes you think that some players won’t think about it. what’s the point now when wang can’t help on the field ?
Joba will be a starter for the entire 2010 season.
They didn’t go through all this trouble to keep his innings in check this season just to put him back into the bullpen next year.
He’s got at least one more full season in the rotation to make some progress and turn the corner.
They aren’t going to abort this mission anytime soon given all the trouble they’ve gone through to get to this point where he won’t have to deal with an innings cap after 2009.
Then it’s Hughes’ turn to be on that dreaded cap for next season.
Nick – You caught me on Iggy.
I still haven’t decided which of those options it is yet.
Did anyone here catch Sportscenter this morning? I’m going crazy right now. I desperatley need a tape or clip or something of this morning’s morning buzz segment….
GF,
My point is, if Joba was throwing the ball well, its to the Yankees advantage to take the ALDS schedule that requires 4 starters.
Since he isn’t, its likely they take the 3 starter schedule and that’s evens the playing field more than it should with the Tigers.
I’m not sure if he will get a ALCS start.
Right now, both Mitre and Gaudin are pitching better than he is. That’s more because Joba has been so bad than those guys have been good.
I don’t see Joe Girardi just handing a rotation spot to him if he continues to struggle. He may have to if there is nobody else. That’s hardly a ringing endorsement on Joba though.
I don’t care how young he is, he’s too talented to pitch this poorly for this many games this year.
I’m not saying he should be Justin Verlander right now. The league also shouldn’t be hitting .330 off him, which they are in his last 7 starts, either.
He’s much better than that.
CB
September 10th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
“Lefty has great stats but Munson was the key to the 70’s run of three series appearences,two titles. ”
Lefty Gomez was only “great stats?”
What the heck does that mean? Because it seems to imply that Gomez wasn’t a critical part to what was arguably the greatest dynasty in the history of baseball.
Gomez won 5 rings. 5. That included 4 WS victories in a row. He was arguably the ace pitcher on 4 of those championship teams.
Lefty Gomez has the 15th highest winning percentage of any pitcher in major league history.
Gomez won the pitching triple crown – not once – but twice. Think about that.
—————————————————–
Gomez was really good but his career was basically over at age 29. And, when he led the league in strikeouts he only average about 5-6 per 9 innings. He was brilliant in the post season but was the kind of pitcher who would drive this blog crazy because he didn’t have good control and walked lots of hitters (about 4 per 9 innings). He won 3 of his rings between 1936-1939, that’s probably the time when the Yankees were at their peak of dominance in baseball. Gomez won 64 games in those 4 years while Red Ruffing was 82-34 at the same time. That’s why I would rank Ruffing over Gomez (and Ruffing won 80 more games lifetime than Gomez).
randy l,
Wasted energy? That’s rather cold and biological no?
These are real humans and these particular pin-striped humans have made a real connection with Wang.
He’s not Nady who they played with for less than a year (although I do miss that one).
This was their silent leader for 3 years. Their compadre. Their comrade. That doesn’t disappear.
Sorry, randy, I think you’re off base on this one. You’re wading into Jim Pir-one waters here.
What’s the point? To let a player who wants to feel like he’s part of the conclusion to a special season actually get to feel included.
I’m biased though, because I’m not someone who wants to see Wang leave the Yankees.
My top 10
1. Gehrig (personality reasons over Ruth)
2. Ruth
3. DiMaggio (Probably the best winner in baseball history, all things considered)
4. Mantle
5. Berra (10 rings and 3 MVPS is hard to ignore)
6. Whitey Ford
7. Jeter
8. Mariano Rivera
9. Bill Dickey
10. Don Mattingly (only because he WAS the yankees for several years)
i’m too young to make a list.
surprised by some of the ‘bust’ lists though. should expectations be sky high in order to make a bust list? Randy Johnson, perhaps… (he did alright, but not what was expected)
Mos my number 1
SJ,
I think you get too wrapped up in these performances at times that you overreact something fierce.
I recall three pitchers who at one time this season could not be major league pitchers; Hughes in May, Robertson earlier in the season, and Joba for the last two months.
You also threw dirt on Pettitte’s grave before the ASB.
It’s not my intention to throw all this in your face and be an ass about it.
But this isn’t the first time (and probably won’t be the last) you’ve gone way way overboard on a Yankee pitcher this season.
How do we know its “progress”?
Last night was not the first time he pitched well in 2 innings after he got lit up in the first inning.
My point is, we won’t know if its “progress” until we see his next start.
The odds have to be in his favor. He’s been bad for 7 starts in a row. At some point, you have to hope he can put together 4-5 quality innings, regardless of his innings cap.
But if you seriously think Wang is wasting space, then he should learn how to make pies and take over for AJ.
The pies might have more “sink” and stay in the strike zone.
SJ – Except Verlander was Joba last year.
Verlander went from struggling mightily last year to being on a very short list of Cy Young candidates. He has the power, velocity, and pitches that last year was the abberation.
Joba has a similar arsenal and certainly similar potential. I still contend this is a lingering effect (mental and/or physical) from the arm ailment last year. It took Hughes a whole season to return to form and it might be the same with Joba. Hughes worked his butt off in the offseason and very visibly came in to camp in much better shape. Joba should do the same.
Joba is too good with too much potential to relegate him to the bullpen. As it was said above, give him a whole year of starts every five days and see how it goes.
“Since he isn’t, its likely they take the 3 starter schedule and that’s evens the playing field more than it should with the Tigers.
I’m not sure if he will get a ALCS start.
Right now, both Mitre and Gaudin are pitching better than he is. That’s more because Joba has been so bad than those guys have been good.”
He will get the start, and it will have as much to do with the progress he makes next year as it does with winning the title this year. He’s been the #3 or #4 starter all year.
It’s one thing to pitch CC Sabathia on three days rest. It’s another to start a journeyman like Chad Gaudin over a guy you project to be an ace. It would be a huge blow to his confidence moving forward.
Plus, despite his struggles, he’s still the fourth best starter on the team.
I don’t think he had that a bad game yesterday. He had a rough first inning, but settled down and retired the last 8 batters he faced. More importantly, he looked confident and comfortable in his final inning for the first time in over a month. I have the belief that his struggles have more to do with his confidence and comfort level in certain situations than “he’s an arrogant kid who needs to be put in his place”. Once Jeter came over to talk to him, he loosened up visibly and started to get the job done.
We’ll see how he builds on that in his next start. But last night was a positive night for Joba.
Pete, of course, gets it exactly right for the old-timers. Here is the list of Yankees overall from 1998 Sporting News ranking.
01 Ruth
06 Gehrig
11 DiMaggio
17 Mantle
40 Berra
48 Jackson
51 Henderson
52 Ford
53 Clemens
57 Dickey
73 Gomez
94 Winfield
95 Boggs
97 Perry
Obviously Jackson/Henderson/Clemens/Winfield need to be triaged as Yankees and I think we all agree they fall out of a Yankee top-10. Boggs/Perry are likely even out of a Yankee top-100.
Here are the SS rankings:
13 Honus Wagner
38 Ernie Banks
78 Cal Ripken, Jr.
87 Ozzie Smith
Where does Jeter rank here — I say he is equal to Cal at least. But ya know I think Cal was a way bigger deal for the O’s than Derek is for the Yankees; but that goes to the over-all talent level of the 2 teams over the years and is not really a knock on Jeter.
So let’s look at an overall ranking for Jeter, pretending no one else needs adding to the 1998 list. To say Jeter is/will be more significant than Whitey Ford (17 year NYY) he has to rank roughly in the top 50 all-damn time.
So, is Jeter top-50 all-time? Is he top-40 which would get him into Yogi territory? Top-20 Mantle? Top-10 Dimaggio? Top-5 Gehrig?
An aside — it may have been remarked else where; as I have said I don’t follow every post. But does everyone realize that Jeter is the longest-serving Yankee Captain.
I don’t think I’m going overboard on Joba.
He hasn’t pitched well since late July. I don’t think that’s a newsflash.
I’ve also said I don’t think he’s going to have much of a role in the post-season because his results aren’t there.
I wish they were because it would make the Yankees a better team.
This is a kid however who has had fans blame everybody but him for his performances this year.
Its Girardi’s fault> Posada’s fault, Eiland’s fault, etc.
Jose Molina was supposed to be the answer to Joba’s prayers.
There was Jose last night getting shook off in the first inning and joining Jeter in getting in the kids grill.
He should be better than he’s shown because he’s talented enough to be better.
That not being the case, the Yankees have to decide what to do with him in the post-season. As of right now, its an open question.
SJ44
September 10th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Bod,
Joba has had periods during this year when he “found” his fastball.
You act as if he is going to throw 95 from hereon out. Perhaps he will.
However, at least to date, that has not happened.
Until we see his next start, we don’t know if he has “found his fastball” again.
If he comes out throwing 90-91 again in the first inning of his next start, then getting a few fastballs up in velocity in last nights start means little.
Until we see his next start, its impossible to know if he rediscovered his fastball or not.
=====
Agreed, we don’t know.
But what I think I’m doing – and what you’re not doing – is looking at this more locally.
He HAS NOT been able to find that FB in his mini-starts. It hasn’t been illusive – it hasn’t been there AT ALL. Yes, he was able to make hay in those longer starts after the break.
But SINCE they went to the latest version of the Joba Rules, it was been lost and he has been startingly mediocre. Last night was the FIRST time there was a dramatic SHIFT during one of those starts.
That is how it has to be viewed: we cannot compare him to the hype you continue to bemoan; you are right about that, but you seem to be using those terms yourself in evaluating him.
Right now, I am encouraged that the ball was coming out of his hand last night like it hasn’t since this latest version of the Joba Rules commenced.
I don’t want to hear anything else, frankly, about Joba. I saw what I saw, and I want to see it again.
Indeed, let’s wait and see if he can, even if he’s sitting 90-91 in the first, break the barrier again – because if he can, that’s TWO games in a row where he was able to find it.
Baby steps.
If he does so, I sure hope Girardi lets him hang around a little bit longer while he’s in that easy place.
Great list pete. One of the things that i think you need to think about when you look at jeter and his numbers is the fact that a high percentage of the guys he was compared to at the position all took PEDs. Tejada, A-Rod, Garciapara (ok not proven but when muschle starts falling off the bone thats a sure sign). bring their numbers back down to reality and Jeter looks even better.
midtown mike had it right…best player my generation will ever see play live. Taking My two little girls to tomorrow ngihts game to watch him break the record. GO JETER
If Joba gets a postseason start, he’ll have a very short leash with Ace in the wings.
So no worries! Anything can happen in the playoffs.
Is there a plan for Joba to pitch in the winter? I think they need to work on his mechanics somewhere, anywhere.
A relief pitcher in the top ten, Pete? How can a guy who’s only the 13th or 14th most important player on the current roster make top ten all time?
SJ44 September 10th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I don’t think I’m going overboard on Joba.
He hasn’t pitched well since late July. I don’t think that’s a newsflash.
I’ve also said I don’t think he’s going to have much of a role in the post-season because his results aren’t there.
I wish they were because it would make the Yankees a better team.
This is a kid however who has had fans blame everybody but him for his performances this year.
Its Girardi’s fault> Posada’s fault, Eiland’s fault, etc.
Jose Molina was supposed to be the answer to Joba’s prayers.
There was Jose last night getting shook off in the first inning and joining Jeter in getting in the kids grill.
He should be better than he’s shown because he’s talented enough to be better.
That not being the case, the Yankees have to decide what to do with him in the post-season. As of right now, its an open question.
——————
I’m not blaming anyone for Joba’s struggles. Never have.
I just have patience with him that most others on this blog don’t have because I understand that it’s a necessary evil if the Yanks want to develop young pitchers.
I wasn’t ready to bury Hughes after last season’s disaster like most people were and he has really turned the corner this season.
Has Joba taken a step back this season? Sure he has. That doesn’t mean I don’t still believe in him over the long haul.
It’s not easy to develop young starters, especially one so inexperienced as Joba.
“Gomez was really good but his career was basically over at age 29. And, when he led the league in strikeouts he only average about 5-6 per 9 innings.”
MG,
I don’t disagree and that’s why I don’t think Gomez is a lock to be in the top 10. He didn’t even win 200 games. There’s a real debate there in terms of all time yankee greats.
But the comment I was responding to seriously dismissed Gomez as just “stats,” opposing him to Munson who of course helped the yankees “win” and wasn’t just about “stats.”
That’s just historical amnesia.
Gomez was a center piece to those teams in the mid to late 1930′s and he was only about “stats” but not winning?
Come on, that’s just bunk.
I find it remarkable that the guy who was the ace of a yankee dynasty is dismissed as only “stats” several generations later.
“You’re wading into Jim Pir-one waters here.”
m-
gee, that’s kind of insulting.
so i’ll cut this short and throw out a personal anecdote why i think the way i do about this.
i watched clete boyer to one of his coaches question why an injured player was hanging around the clubhouse so much when his year was over and we were in a pennant push. i thought it cold too and had a grizzled veteran explain it to me when i mentioned it to him in private.
i could tell you what waters you’re wading in , but why prolong the silliness.
Guidry and Munson should be in the top 10.
For much of the 70′s Munson was the best player on the team and one of the best in the league. He brought us to the brink of a championship…it did take a few more pieces to get us over the top however. For many fans of the Yankees in the 70′s, he was our Mantle.
Guidry was one of the best pitchers in the league for several years. He successfully matured from an overpowering thrower to an intelligent pitcher. He won 20 games at 3 different points in his career- really he was a different pitcher each time. We all know about his incredible ’78 season 25-3, 1.74 ERA, but he came up from the minors to win 18 games in ’77 and then 19 games in ’79. During the early mid 80′s he as an anchor on a team that needed leadership.
Has anyone ever pointed to Pettite and said he is one of the best in the game ? Just about every player under consideration for the Top 10 was considered among the best at some point of their career. By this standard alone, you can make a case for both Bernie and Donnie. To me, Donnie has the edge. Who knows what his career would have looked like if he did not injure his back ? As it is, he was the gold standard for 1B gloves for 10+yrs, and one of the most feared hitters in the game for many years.
What about Bobby Murcer ? He suffered from being the “Next” Mantle, but he had an excellent career in his own right. Certainly top 20.
Goose Gossage ? As good as Mo in the 9th inning and could give you 3ip at a clip.
Righetti ? Phenomal rookie, no hitter and a dominent reliever for an extended period of time.
Sweet Lou Pinella ? One of the very best hitters in the game for most of the 70′s.
Nettles ? The legitmate successor to Brooks Robinson as the best 3b in the game.
Catfish Hunter and David Cone ? Both were brought in at crucial points in team history and both taught their respective team-mates how to win.
Billy Martin ? Fiery player, Machiavellian genious of a manager.
Mel Stottlemeyer ? Had the misfortune of arriveing either 5yrs too late or 5yrs too early. How did he manage to win so many games for such a horrible team ?
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I have long felt that the problem with Joba has been an inconsistent FB. He is a FB pitcher and that is how he approaches the game. When he as a good FB, he also has a bit more velocity on his breaking pitches. When he is ~90, his FB is straight and his breaking pitches lack bite. He needs to get this straightened out or he will be an ex Yankee. What I think will happen is that several members of the team and management will tell him in very specific terms what is expected of him. Either he will get the message or he wont. He is stubborn and as we are learning, still immature. His clock is ticking. In his favor, there are many successfull pitchers who had trouble in the first inning early in their careers- Pettite, John Smoltz and Tom Glavine are 3 that come to mind.
m
September 10th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
If Joba gets a postseason start, he’ll have a very short leash with Ace in the wings.
So no worries! Anything can happen in the playoffs.
Is there a plan for Joba to pitch in the winter? I think they need to work on his mechanics somewhere, anywhere.
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That is also very true.
Aceves can shadow any starts by Joba.
This is where we can say we have enough depth to carry off seeing what Joba can bring to a postseason start, assuming, at lift off, he is in an acceptable place.
CB
September 10th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
“Gomez was really good but his career was basically over at age 29. And, when he led the league in strikeouts he only average about 5-6 per 9 innings.”
MG,
I don’t disagree and that’s why I don’t think Gomez is a lock to be in the top 10. He didn’t even win 200 games. There’s a real debate there in terms of all time yankee greats.
But the comment I was responding to seriously dismissed Gomez as just “stats,” opposing him to Munson who of course helped the yankees “win” and wasn’t just about “stats.”
That’s just historical amnesia.
Gomez was a center piece to those teams in the mid to late 1930’s and he was only about “stats” but not winning?
Come on, that’s just bunk.
I find it remarkable that the guy who was the ace of a yankee dynasty is dismissed as only “stats” several generations later.
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Gomez was a terrific pitcher, as was Ruffing. They can’t be dismissed as ‘just stats’, that’s ridiculous. They are both Hall of Famers, that should say it all to anyone interested. Munson was the heart and soul of the Yankees teams of the ’70s and brought pride back into the uniform after the awful teams of the late ’60s. One of my fondest memories was in 1970, listening on the radio to an A’s broadcast and Bill King speaking glowingly of Munson throwing out a base stealer from his knees (I was living in SF at the time).
As interesting as these lists are, it sometimes helps lose the perspective of just how good some of these players are. The Yankees have had so many great ones in their history limiting it to 10 can make things difficult for even someone with a good grasp of history.
The blog post said this was top 10 yankees. It didn’t say exclusively players. Where would you put the managers in the list? Surely some of them could make it don’t you think?
Casey Stengel should be on the list. He won 10 pennants and 7 world series.
Joe McCarthy also won 7 world series titles
How about Joe Torre who won 6 pennants and 4 championships?
Charlie Keller has a career OPS+ of 152. Tommy Henrich had a carer OPS+ of 132. Both lost key seasons to WWII, and both were better than Paul O’Neill was.
Hey, what about Waite Hoyt?
How about George Stienbrenner? Is he allowed to be on it?
Jeter may not be best the Yankee all-time, but he is by the far most entertaining. Pete did you see the article about Jeter’s frat boy tendencies? Hilarious.
http://blog.steinersports.com/.....-love-him/
Jeter is a winner who other players respect but don’t necessarily marvel at.
Pat I would be careful, that type of thinking is what started the whole Arod mess
You don’t evaluate individual player achievements on the number of championships. That’s a team thing.
I agree…..Babe would still be the best even if everyone else on his team was a Carl Pavano or Bubba Crosby (and there would have been no championships. Thus I would have had Mattingly on the list but other than that its good.
Pete would you say 10 year min to be a “true” yankee for this type of list?
I don’t mean to fuss but any reasonable comparison of mantle and dimaggio will lead to the conclusion that mantle was better.
Dimaggio struck out much less than mantle, had a higher batting average and won 2 more world series rings (9 to 7) which is a team accomplishment. But:
1. Mantle’s OBP was .421 to Dimaggio’s .398.
2. Mantle hit 536 homers to Dimaggio’s 361 (Yankee stadium was tough on Joe but even if you doubled his road homers he would finish at 426)
3. Mantle’s OPS+ was an eye popping 172 and Dimaggio’s was 155
4. Mantle had 565 lifetime win shares Dimaggio had 387 win shares.
Dimaggio didn’t play as long, but I think that cuts in mantle’s favor. They’re both great hall of famers but Mickey was better.
Who would you want if they were both rookies?
1. Babe Ruth
2. Lou Gehrig
3. Mickey Mantle
4. Joe DiMaggio
5. Yogi Berra
6. Derek Jeter
7. Whitey Ford
8. Mariano Rivera
9. Thurman Munson
10. Alex Rodriguez
1. Babe Ruth
2. Lou Gehrig
3. Mickey Mantle
4. Joe DiMaggio
5. Yogi Berra
6. Derek Jeter
7. Whitey Ford
8. Mariano Rivera
9. Thurman Munson
10. Alex Rodriguez
A-Rod..Over Donnie Baseball? Fail.
JUst got out of work and would like to submit my list:
1 Ruth
2.Gehrig
3.DiMaggio
4.Mantle
5.Berra
6.Ford
7.Earle Combs (HOF,.325 career bating average,.397 obp, 154 triples – 9 fewer than Gehrig)
8.Mo ( dynasty MVP IMO)
9.Jeter
10.Bill Dickey
11.Thurman Munson
12.Lefty Gomez
13.Don Mattingly
14.Ron Guidry
15.Vic Raschi
16.Phil Rizutto
17.Elston Howard
18.Allie Reynolds
19.Bernie Williams
20.Paul O’Neil
1. Babe Ruth
2. Lou Gehrig
3. Mickey Mantle
4. Joe DiMaggio
5. Yogi Berra
6. Derek Jeter
7. Mariano Rivera
8. Whitey Ford
9. Casey Stengel
10. George Steinbrenner
I think Rivera is the greatest yankees pitcher of all time. flat out. I don’t care what Ford did, Mo is the greatest.
Randyhater .. the relief pitcher comment was funny.
Pete …. I think the thing to do when you have as many legends as the YAnks is make the list a top 20 or 25 list!
Top 25 would imply it be done by position but I’d make it clear that’s not the intention.
no body knows Redd Ruffing?
seems like everyone has the same top 5.
A Rod is going to play for years to come Matt, and I don’t feel Mattingly is better than A Rod, but that’s just my preference. I mean sure A Rod is an admitted cheat and Mattingly is excellent but he just isn’t in my top 10.
I am as much in awe of Rivera as the next person. He is easily the greatest closer of all-time. But I have a bit of a problem with using that as an argument to ranking him ahead of Jeter because the position is still fairly new. There have only been 4 or 5 great closers (Rivera, Ecks, Fingers, Gossage, Hoffman).
Obviously the shortstop position has been around forever, and also, I think most people would agree that it is the toughest position on the field. So absolutely no disrespect to Rivera and all that he has accomplished, but for Jeter to be mentioned as a top 5 shortstop of all time holds more weight, to me, than Rivera being the greatest closer.
Obviously, however, you can’t go wrong with either one of them, because they are both locks to be first-ballot hall of famers.
Sorry guys I think it’s pure insanity to rank Jeter over Mo for #6 on the list. I’d actually rank Mo ahead of Yogi and maybe the Mick because this Yankee team does not have even one ring without Rivera – not one.
Ted Williams said that if Phil Rizzuto played for them, Boston would have been winning all those World Series. Phil Rizzuto has to be included in the top 10 Yankees of all time as does Thurman Munson. Otherwise your list is good whatever order you put them in.
Joba sure looks a lot like the Babe.
Sorry if I’m late but I don’t wanna read 280+ comments. To me Yogi Berra was never mentioned as an “all-time” Yankee until these past few years. So these lists with him in the top-5 need to be questioned.
I never got why people think Joe D was better than Mantle? For realsies people?
To Brendan- how would you question Berra in the top 5? He was one of the best CATCHERS of all time.
Check out Earl Comb’s career some time. If Joe DiMaggio ranks third on your all-time list, I don’t see how Combs doesn’t earn a Top 10 ranking.
I love Derek Jeter, but Mo Rivera has got to be right there with him. I guess the value of a closer gets little/no respect, but without him, there is no 4 world championships. Also Mariano will be recognized as the best player of all time at his position.
Mattingly in the ten spot.
I think Joe D was better than Mantle.
I actualy agree wholeheartedly with the list except for the tenth spot. Earle Coombs is another great choice for that spot.
It depends if we are ranking on how well-liked he is with the fans or actually who is the greatest.
Mariano is the greatest closer of all time and could be argued to be in the top 5.
Derek Jeter is the guy who’s never put up amazing numbers but has been consistent – similar to guys like Bernie Williams or even Paul O’Neil. He gives 100% and because of this he’s liked by the fans. If I had to rank him, he’d probably break the top 10 but just barely. There have been “greater” Yankees. For his place in the lineup there have been greater hitters this generation (Ichiro, for instance). Unlike Mariano he wasn’t the greatest or even the #2 of his generation.
Now, I don’t think A-Rod deserves a place in there. He hasn’t performed in the post season and while he’s done work, he hasn’t quite done anything extraordinary.
If you put Derek Jeter in there, you should basically also put in people like Jorge Posada, Bernie Williams, and Paul O’Neil. People who have been solid players and have contributed over the years. But that’s not what this list is about. Every great Yankee has been a solid player and a fan favorite, and that list would be extremely long. However, it is arguable that Jeter is the greatest of those “solid” yankees.
I’m not an expert on the older Yankee teams, but I know there’s more than enough great players that actually deserve a spot in the top 10 than the players of now & recent yrs, like Bernie + Derek.
So you decide who it should be. He should be the dominant player of his generation, not just a fan favorite. Mariano fits the bill, Jeter, not quite, not quite.
I’ve been a fan since 1955. Grew up loving the earlier history of the franchise. So here’s my list, based on how valuable they were to the franchise:
1. Ruth
2. Gehrig
3. Rivera
4. Joe D
5. Mantle
6. Ford
7. Dickey
8. Jeter
9. Berra
10. Tommy Heinrich
What, no Horace Clarke?
Seriously, though, would definitely put Munson in at No. 10.
I know this probably isn’t going to be a popular stat, but you culd make the case, that Gherig’s actually better than Ruth. His numbers are absurd. Ruth had the power nums, but Gherig was an RBI machine.
I put Tommy Henrich on there because he’s still alive (96) and might read the blog. And he had a great nickname.
You’re right. Munson belongs on any list, especially if you consider value to the franchise. He helped bring the team back from the depths of the late 1960s, aka The Horace Clarke Era.
Vinny b said:
Dimaggio is considered to be the first 5-tool player in history of major league baseball. I will take Dimaggio
This doesn’t make sense. pro ball was around for half a century before joe d. There were lots of five tool players. For example, the babe before he got fat. What tool was he weak at? The guy’s arm was so good that he probably could have made the Hall as a pitcher if he stayed there!
We’re obviously splitting hairs between Mantle and DiMag. I’d take Mantle, but others could differ. But there were definitely five tool players before DiMaggio.
Mantle #2 HANDS DOWN. Mickey Mantle might be the most talented player in the history of baseball….
Mick and JoeD both got old fast. I like to say that Mantle was better than anyone during the 1950s because nobody could run as fast or hit the ball as far, not even Mays.
JoeD from his rookie year through 1942 must have been unbelievable. By all accounts, he had perfect baseball instincts in the field and on the bases. He was also a big man for his era who could run very well.
Mick didn’t have great instincts in CF. Maybe I say that because Mays’s instincts were just perfect. It was hard not to compare the two of them during the 1950s. We all stood around in school hallways and debated that subject — Willie or Mickey. I never heard anyone put Duke in that conversation.
On the Yankee list, I put JoeD one ahead of Mick, but Rivera is ahead of both of them. Never been a classier, more effective Yankee than Mariano. IMHO.
Do you think Jete cracks the top five if he becomes the All-Time MLB hit king? I would imagine so.
1.Ruth
2.Dimaggio
3. Gehrig
4. Mantle
5. Berra
6. Jeter
7. Ford
8. Rivera
9. Munson
10a. Bernie as of right now, but depending on how legacy looks when all is said and done….
10b. A-Rod will take the 10 spot
Honorable Mention: If it weren’t for his back, Donnie Baseball wouldve been 10, and Reggie just was too short a span….
p.s. Dimaggio I put at 2 because, remember, lost 4 of his prime years to WWII…
When it comes to a Yankees top ten list you need eleven.
While I haven’t compiled my list yet, I think it’s fair to point out that the “if Jeter is in so should Bernie and O”Neill” argument doesn’t make any sense to me. Yes, while all three have been solid, if not spectacular Yankees, Jeter is on another level. On a relative basis, his numbers compared to his peers are far superior than Bernie or O’Neill.
As far as Mo is concerned, he probably deserves more love. Not only is he the most dominant player of all time at his position, but a reasonable argument can be made for him as the best pitcher of all time. Yet, he only seems to barely crack the Yankee Top 10. Weird….
Nick in SF in Santa Rosa, September 10th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Pete’s list is good enough for me, for now anyway.
Lou Gehrig was played by Gary Cooper; I don’t think Jeter can ever top that.
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Lol. Yes, Jeter could if he played himself in the movie!
Very interesting discussion. My question? Read all of these posts and then tell me why Paul O’Neil’s photo hangs in the hall of the new stadium? Better question: whose photos come down to make room for Jeter’s and Mariano’s? (Or do they just build a New New Yankees Stadium with more room for the photo banners?)
1. Mattingly
2. Gehrig
3. Ruth
4. Mantle
5. Dimaggio
6. Berra
7. Ford
8. Mariano
9. Bernie
10. Jeter
I’m always suprised that Red Ruffing isn’t bigger then he was. Especially, with the Yankees/Red Sox rivalry.
Here was a guy that couldn’t get a win while playing for the Red Sox, he’s traded to the Yankees for basically nothing, and immediately turns into a HOF pitcher (and that’s with him missing two years during WWII).
He went on to win 273 games, 1987 strikeouts, and a career ERA of 3.80.
He along with Earl Coombs, Tony Lazzeri, and Lefty Gomez have become the forgotten Yankees. Four of the greatest ballplayers of all time.
No offense, but the idea that so many people think Phil Rizzuto, Andy Pettite, and Don Mattingly should be higher then those four, is an absolute joke.
And, that’s the fault of the Yankees themselves. There will never be a Yankeeography on them, which is a shame.
The best pitcher in Yankee history is not less important than Derek Jeter.
i gotid88 How can you put Mattingly #1 when he won nothing?
And I love that Jeter article Bingo posted. Good to see the captain can have fun off the field as well as on it. That’s why he’s the best.
1. Ruth (so much better than his league at his time it was ridiculous)
2. Gehrig (possibly the classiest Yankee superstar ever)
3. Mo Rivera (could make the same arguments as for both Ruth and Gehrig)
4. Joe DiMaggio
5. Mantle
6. Yogi
7. Jeter
8. Whitey Ford
9. Phil Rizzuto
10. Red Ruffing (why no love?)
I think in time we might be ranking Jeter ahead of DiMaggio, Mantle, and/or Berra.
Think about it…he’s only 35. He could conceivably end up with 4000 hits, 300 homers, 400 steals, 2000 runs, 1500 RBI, and maybe even 2 or 3 more rings.
…and who knows what he’ll do when he’s done playing. My guess is he’ll be a lifer in the organization.
Rivera could end up higher as well.
Number 10 is so tough to call that it’s not worth trying. It would probably depend most on what generation you’re from. I’d say somebody like Mattingly or O’Neill…but I never got to see Lefty or Ruffing or Scooter play.