How Jeter can win the MVP
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Sep 15, 2009 
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The Minnesota Twins, now 72-72, learned yesterday that first baseman Justin Morneau will miss the remainder of the season with a stress fracture in his lower back. Third baseman Joe Crede is finished with a bad back.
The Twins have 18 games left, 10 of them on the road. They have to play the Tigers seven more times and the White Sox three times.
Let’s say the Twins finish 81-81 and in third place, nine game out. Could that impact how voters view Joe Mauer’s Most Valuable Player candidacy? What if they finish 79-83? Or worse?
A few things to keep in mind:
• There is no clear definition of “most valuable” on the ballot. It’s up to every individual voter to decide that. Some people may not considering being a great player on a third-place worthy of the award. Others may exclude any player on a losing team.
• Mauer is leading the league in batting average, on-base percentage and slugging percentage. But he will not lead the league in home runs or RBI or runs scored and some old-school batters like seeing those sort of numbers for whatever reason.
• Baseball has a lifetime achievement award, it’s called the Hall of Fame. But there will be voters out there who will consider Jeter for the MVP simply because he hasn’t won it before.
• Jeter passing Lou Gehrig for the franchise hits record received an inordinate amount of media attention.
• The Yankees are on pace to win 103 games and score 932 runs. Jeter is generally seen as the spark plug for this fearsome offense. I also think most voters will put him ahead of Mark Teixeira on their ballots.
Again, I’m not predicting this will happen or saying this is how I personally plan to vote. I’m just saying these are factors that will play in the minds of some voters, especially those less inclined to look at advanced statistics. If over the next three weeks, the Yankees keep rolling and Mauer slips a bit, don’t be surprised if Jeter edges him out.
I have one of the 28 votes and I’ve compiled a list of 15 players and will narrow it down to 10 in the next 10 days. Then I’ll work on ordering those 10.
It’s hard figuring where the Tampa Bay players fit in and who is their most valuable player. You can make a case for Ben Zobrist or Jason Bartlett.
I hope Jeter wins but honestly it would be a travesty if Mauer doesn’t win it. I don’t care what the records or the standings are… what he’s doing this year as a catcher is just flat-out insane. Jeter’s having a great year but he should not win it over Mauer just because the Yankees are better than the Twins.
Oh, come on Pete, you gotta vote for Jeter!
The only reason I root for Mauer is that I hate this recent, unwritten rule that the MVP should come from a playoff team.
Plus, there’s something kind of poetic and appropriate for Jeter’s legacy that he’s never won it.
Bullet point #2 hurts Jeter moreso than it does Mauer.
Pete -
One could only hope that every person with a vote would approach the process as thoughtfully as you apparently are.
Jeter.
“It’s hard figuring where the Tampa Bay players fit in and who is their most valuable player. You can make a case for Ben Zobrist or Jason Bartlett.”
That is what I don’t understand about the MVP debate. Both Zobrist and Bartlett have higher OPS’s than Jeter. Yet, they are not even on most peoples radar for the MVP. Heck, Bartlett is having, statistically speaking, the same season Jeter is!.
Really now, the only reason Jeter is getting consideration at this point is because he is Derek Jeter. I love the guy and he deserves some sentimental votes because this could be his last shot at the MVP but he really needed to step it up in Sept and at least get within 20 points of Mauer to have even a slight chance in my book and that hasn’t happened. Mauer has raised his BA this month and Jeter has stayed static. Jeter really needed Mauer to drop off a cliff to have a chance.
Anybody but Halladay….. got tix for 2nights game– and it doesn’t look good– but Halladay hasn’t look good lately either (except for his last start)
Well when their fans can’t be bothered to go see them play the season after they made it to the world series, why should anyone bother paying attention to them?
Jeter should have one already– but its hard not to vote for Mauer either….. Have fun deciding.
Keep in mind that Mauer DHs A LOT.Also gets his regular rest against lefties helping his batting avg etc.Jeter has played a full season.
“Keep in mind that Mauer DHs A LOT.Also gets his regular rest against lefties helping his batting avg etc.Jeter has played a full season.”
Why shouldn’t he rest against lefties? He only hits .325 against them.
Poor Decision,… should have been edwar ramirez… who is utterly useless Claggets’ younger and throws strikes… This one could come back to bite…
—
Oh yea? How is designating a reliever with 33 ERA going to ‘come back to bite’? Bite whom? The Yankees?? Is Boston suddenly going to acquire Clagget and then pitch him against us in the ALCS? Is the farm suddenly barren of relievers because last I checked we were bursting at the major league seems with relievers! Who would Clagget be displacing? We need 40 man roster spots anyways and there is no guarantee anyone is even going to claim him!
This kind of fear mongering, gloom and doom analysis is the WORST. I could do it in my sleep.
The yankees traded chase weems for Jerry Hairston Jr… another middle infielder when we need catchers….jorge obviously can’t talk to the staff and they get rid of weems……this one might come back to bite…..
See how easy that is? It is worthless analysis.
Also for a strike thrower he sure has a 3.3 BB/9 and a minor league whip near 1.3.
Keep in mind that Mauer DHs A LOT.Also gets his regular rest against lefties helping his batting avg etc.Jeter has played a full season.
=======
Jeter should hire Arod’s pr agent from 2007 when he stole the MVP from Ortiz using the same logic.
The Ghost-
A-Rod had that MVP sewn up in April when he hit like 15 home runs and literally carried the Yankees on his back
Pipe dream that Jeter could win it. Pete, do not embarrass yourself and be a homer please.
Zobrist was outstanding early in the year. but since August 1st he’s been TERRIBLE. i’m not the type of person that thinks games down the stretch should be weighted a ton more. i simply think you can’t be the MVP if you had a prolonged stretch where you were giving very little production. in the second half he’s been mediocre.
I love Jeter, but anyone not voting for Mauer should have their vote taken away. Jeter isn’t even the most valuable player on the Yankees let alone in the AL.
I love Jeter, but anyone not voting for Mauer should have their vote taken away. Jeter isn’t even the most valuable player on the Yankees let alone in the AL.
–
Actually Jeter’s WAR ranks quite highly in baseball and on the yankees
*pushes up nerd glasses*
a list of 15 players? really? there are maybe 3 that deserve first place votes, come on pete. we all know that the player that gets the most media buzz in the weeks leading up to the end of the season ends up winning the mvp. its almost like a campaign. step up and voice your support for the captain he clearly deserves the award way more than the catcher on a barely .500 team in the AL central. seriously
“Jeter passing Lou Gehrig for the franchise hits record received an inordinate amount of media attention.”
In NYC maybe. Do you really think anyone outside of New York cares about such a meaningless achievement?
Pete’s not going to vote for Jeter because he’s going to remember all those times he selflessly (and successfully) bunted to move a runner over.
Jeter has been maligned so much over the years.For the most part he doesn’t receive the respect he deserves as a player other than from yankee fans.
He is no longer a young man who is playing a young mans game possibly better than all but maybe one two seasons. Best defensive player at ss? Probably not. Best offensive player? No not even. Most valuable? Very well could be.
Where might the yankees be today if Pena had been our ss the entire season? Not a knock on Pena he has talent. To say the yankees may very well not be in cruise is not rediculous to ponder.
Yeah for me he is this year the most valuable.
From last thread
“”Claggett throws a lot of strikes….to the tune of a 33.75 ERA witht he big club. Kei Igawa has a dencent ERA in Scranton.”
In a very limited role… Igawa is not on the 40 man, clagget was gonna be in the mix next year for a pen spot. Im just saying how is edwar more valuable then clagget???
“Stephen
September 15th, 2009 at 10:27 am
The only reason I root for Mauer is that I hate this recent, unwritten rule that the MVP should come from a playoff team.”
I think that a lot of things should be thought of when voting for the MVP. One of those is how many wins does the team have.
I just don’t see how a player is all that valuable to a team that is basically a .500 team. If you are an MVP on a .500 team then it is only saying that this player kept you from worse suckatude.
If a player is on a team that is out of the post season race then they should be putting up incredible numbers and basically carrying the team.
The goal of every team is to make the post season. The MVP not only needs to be playing so well that they are recognized, but should be playing well enough that it improves the level of playing of the other members of the team, or at least increases the level of their trying to succeed.
Mauer is a very good player, doing very well at hitting the ball while playing a difficult position. His team is at around .500. That is in a weaker division where he gets to play more games against teams that are not all that great. Seems to me that playing in a weak division can also mean that his stats get a boost that others playing in a tougher division won’t have.
a list of 15 players? really? there are maybe 3 that deserve first place votes
–
They don’t just vote for first place, and considering the positioning of the vote for a player is important because of incentives tied to ‘Top 5′ ‘Top3′ MVP finishes etc
In a very limited role… Igawa is not on the 40 man, clagget was gonna be in the mix next year for a pen spot. Im just saying how is edwar more valuable then clagget???
–
Edwar has dominated the minor leagues and has had major league success.
Edwar would also assuredly be claimed by an opposing team. Clagget will probably make it through waivers.
Back to the double steal. Even if Figgins picks that ball out of the dirt, I don’t think he could’ve turned and swiped Gardy before he touches the bag.
Joe Mauer will win. Even if you can find a writer to vote for Jeter or Tex, they won’t put Mauer lower than second.
Jeter and Tex both making very good cases and would split the vote.
Hard to say, Tex improved the defense a hundred fold. Big bat. Jeter’s been steady the whole season, setting the table, making sacrifices (tee hee), and imo exhibiting great leadership, and fielding a difficult position quite well.
Hopefully Jeter and Tex will be taking home the only hardware that matters.
“Actually Jeter’s WAR ranks quite highly in baseball and on the yankees
*pushes up nerd glasses*”
That’s fueled by UZR having Jeter has an above average fielder and A-Rod & Tex as below average. Given that the fielding data has accuracy issues because it comes from stringers I don’t know how much weight you can give it.
Reno
September 15th, 2009 at 10:49 am
“Jeter passing Lou Gehrig for the franchise hits record received an inordinate amount of media attention.”
In NYC maybe. Do you really think anyone outside of New York cares about such a meaningless achievement?
*****
It’s hardly meaningless. And it was covered extensively by Yahoo! which is a national news source
It’s completely meaningless that he passed Gehrig. It only got news attention because it’s Jeter and the Yankees and I highly doubt it will play any role in the voting.
Tex is both the Yankees and AL MVP. He has had some huge game winning hits (Boston sunday night game) and leads the league in RBI’s. He is 2nd in HR.
I understand Mauer plays a very important position at catcher and is a gold glover. But Tex is definitely going to win the gold glove this year and he has made Jeter and Cano also look like gold glove candidates. He has not only been sure-handed, but Tex has made some game changing plays defensively to add to his offensive prowess.
I’d give Tex the nod over Jeter and Mauer.
MVP is about perception.It is always a player who seems to make his team better. Case in point: Hank Sauer for the fifth place Cubs. Mr. Sauer had limitations but he was a fascinating prescence in the line up. Derek Jeter shoud have won in 2006. Justin Morneau was nowhere near MVP, even on his own team that season, which was another great year for Mauer. That was Jeter’s year and he was robbed. 1999 was Jeter’s year, and he was robbed. The debate relative to Jeter is worthless. Of course, he is deserving, now and in the past.
Barry
Edwar Ramirez is atrocious. How cares if he has had major league success???
He has failed about 90% of the time.
my point is that pete is a yankee beat writer. he has followed the team for years now. if jeter is to win he needs to first count on a vote from his own team’s beat writers! no doubt there are a handful of writers in minnesota that are very outspoken about their mauer for mvp
Jerkface…
Please explain how edwar ramirez is more valuable??? Thats all…. that all i want to know.. how his he deserving of a 40 man spot? Explain the logic… please?
Reno
September 15th, 2009 at 10:55 am
It’s completely meaningless that he passed Gehrig. It only got news attention because it’s Jeter and the Yankees and I highly doubt it will play any role in the voting.
****
Cause you are the speaker for the 28 writers voting???
Don’t speak for others
Mauer has caught 93 games this year, the same number as Posada. He has DH’d 25 times. For Mauer to hit .371 as a catcher is a remarkable achievement. The Teins are 5.5 games out and still bearthing. You could argue that their season would have been over before Labor Day without Mauer’s contribution. He’s the MVP IMO.
Yeah Mauer deserves it but I hope Jeter wins it.
Zobrist and Bartlett are losing point for the same reason Mauer is. The Rays are bad – just like the Twins.
If Mauer is losing “points” because the Twins are bad. If the Twins were really in the race, Mauer’d be the MVP with someone else finishing a pretty distant second.
“The Teins are 5.5 games out and still bearthing.”
This just proves I can’t work and post at the same time. One of them has to go…preferably work! lol
I thought Jeter could have won in 2006 when Morneau took the honor.
Barry Lane
Jeter was not robbed in 1999. He had a great season but several players had better seasons than him. If anyone got robbed, as much as it bothers me as a Yankee fan to say it, Pedro got robbed.
jeter and teixeira have no chance at winning the mvp because they are from NY, and that automatically loses 10 votes unless you are having such a monster season (see: 07 arod) that you can’t possibly be denied.
any voters on the fence will automatically go for the guy that is NOT from NY.
and besides, the MVP of the AL is Johnny Damon. Highest WPA among Al hitters. WPA directly correlates to how much you helped your team win, which is what it’s all about (we do NOT play this game merely to accumulate avg/obp/slg/runs/rbi’s/HR’s). http://tinyurl.com/mvpdamon
Erica – always OPPC
September 15th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Reno
September 15th, 2009 at 10:49 am
“Jeter passing Lou Gehrig for the franchise hits record received an inordinate amount of media attention.”
In NYC maybe. Do you really think anyone outside of New York cares about such a meaningless achievement?
*****
It’s hardly meaningless. And it was covered extensively by Yahoo! which is a national news source
————————————————————
Sorry, Erica, but, Yahoo’s a better chocolate drink than it is a news source.
Please explain how edwar ramirez is more valuable??? Thats all…. that all i want to know.. how his he deserving of a 40 man spot? Explain the logic… please?
—
2008 55 IP 3.9 ERA 63 K’s 44 H’s
Career minor league K/9 of 12 and BB/9 of 2.8
1.039 WHIP in the minors (.3 lower than clagget)
A change up rated 80 on the 20-80 scale
Documented amazingly consistent arm angle/release/arm speed between fastball and changeup
He would be claimed if he was DFA’d. Clagget has a chance to NOT be claimed. And his minor league numbers and stuff is nothing special. Keep the gimmick reliever who has proven he can get out big leaguers vs the middling relief prospect who might clear waivers and then we keep him anyways
here’s another site with WPA ranks, just to see how far off it is to just assume Mauer is the MVP…
http://www.fangraphs.com/leade.....38;month=0
GB7-
Don’t be silly. That’s Yoohoo!!! LOL
I wasn’t comparing it to the New York Times. However, it does qualify as a national new source and I had a point to prove!
I can’t imagine anyone following Jeter on a regular basis not voting for him and I can’t imagine anyone not following Jeter on a regular basis voting for him. There is just very little that stands out in a box score to help anyone understand what Jeter means to this team. That play he made up the middle last night when even the slick fielding Robbie Cano had no faith in him making it is what Jeter is all about day in and day out. Need a big play that won’t show up in the box score – Jeter is your guy every time.
Tom B–very well put on both points. TBS’s commercials for the postseason–WOULD IT KILL YOU TO PUT MORE THAN ONE YANKEE PICTURE IN THE COMMERCIAL? guarantee the yankees games have the highest tv ratings in the playoffs and we even get shafted on something as small as that. watching MNF last night it makes me sick how people LOOOVEEE tom brady and make it sound like he took the team on his shoulders and won and the pats are amazing and all. why dont the yankees get that sort of coverage? im not looking for favoritism im looking to start with a level playing field at least
This notion that nobody else cared that Jeter passed Gehrig is bull. MLB.com had interviews with players all over baseball and they were all saying what a great achievement it was and what a great player Jeter was.
I’ve already stated my apparently unpopular opinion that the MVP should come from a playoff bound team. My mind hasn’t changed on that. Mauer is the Most Offensively Proficient Player, but in my mind, he’s not the MVP. In my opinion, they need to add another award. But nobody cares what I think so there ya go!
I do not understand the big deal about stats/position player. People are arguing that its a bigger deal that Mauer is putting up these #s as a catcher and I feel that is a very dated and old-fashioned biased towards the individual players. Yes, Mauer’s #s are unreal this season, no matter where he plays C, 1B, RF anyone who puts up these kind of stats is a very valid candidate for MVP. what I don’t get is how being a catcher in this modern era of baseball promotes those same stats to an even higher respect level. I get where this originated, the wear and tear on a player from catching all game has had negative affects on his stats over a year and even longer over a career at that position. But in this mdoern era where there are personal trainers and nutritionists and off-season training programs, etc. The strong healthy young talent of this era can stay that way. Yogi Berra for example obviously had ill affects of playing catcher for all those years in the twilight of his career but thats why he was moved around, often playing the outfield.
All I’m saying is that the freakish raw athletic talent of this era should not be judged the same as eras previous (Steroids aside). A big guy like Mauer whose team decides to utilize him as a catcher should not be put on a pedestal because he is such a freak of athletic ability that his #s at the plate are remaining constant no matter his feilding position.
i love how there is an espnboston.com now. isnt espn basically espn boston anyway?
“and besides, the MVP of the AL is Johnny Damon.”
Erica, is that you masquerading as Tom?
Laura
September 15th, 2009 at 11:07 am
“and besides, the MVP of the AL is Johnny Damon.”
Erica, is that you masquerading as Tom?
****
No, but I do have an overwhelming urge to hug Tom right now
Laura,
I think you and I have similar thoughts on the meaning of “most valuable”. Just give Mauer an extra big batting champ trophy for doing it as a catcher.
How about when Posada was hitting .330 as a 40 year old? Shouldn’t he have gotten geriatric bonus points? (and he did it on a winning team!) (Disclaimer-I may be a little off on my facts, haha).
BG #11
First – love the name!
Second – According to your logic the 1st basemen also have the same offseason conditioning, nutritionists etc…their “wear and tear” standard is raised as well.
Even though it might be easier for Mauer to get through a catching season than, say, Yogi Berra. It’s still proportional in “wear and tear” because you’re not comparing Mauer to Berra. You’re comparing Mauer to Jeter and Tex who have the same advantages.
BG – its not that they simply “decide” to use him at catcher. he’s a member of a small pool of players capable of doing it. that is what makes it impressive. production at that spot is extremely hard to replace (especially when its league-leading production). the reason guys play positions other than catcher is because they can’t, not because the team decides to deploy them somewhere else. same goes for SS. joe mauer gives his team an edge in EVERY game they play because he is more productive than the catcher on the other die. as awesome as teix has been, the difference between him and guys like morneau, cabrera, youkilis etc. is not as great
The belief that the vague definition of “MVP” allows for this kind of nonsense is just incorrect. While it does say “there is no clear-cut definition,” here’s the definition they DO give:
“1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense. 2. Number of games played. 3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort. 4. Former winners are eligible. 5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.”
None of that leaves ANY room to argue that the performance of the rest of the player’s team has any business in the consideration. “Actual value of a player to his team” being directly equated with “strength of offense and defense” says it all. There’s no other way that it makes any sense at all to measure value.
If the Twins finish 81-81, the result should be exactly the same as if they finished 20-142: Joe Mauer is the AL MVP.
m
He was 36 (I think) but yes, he probably should have LOL!
“side” not “die”
if Mauer were playing in April, maybe the Twins could have had a record better than .500
kidding aside, i hope Jeter wins only because it seems the wrong choice is made so often. i’ll be scratching my head if/when he does, but happy about it.
Mauer’s the MVP on the stats but Jeter gets my vote because (1) he’s almost as good as Mauer on the stats and (2) Jeter should get extra credit for lifetime achievement. Jeter ought to win the MVP once, and this could be his last chance. Mauer’s young and will have other opportunities.
The real MVP of the Yankees this year is Alfredo Aceves, it would be great if the MVP award was truly given to the most indispensable player on a top team. They have all these other awards that focus on pure numbers it would be nice if the MVP was given just once to a selfless player who did the most to benefit a team.
My very humble opinion is that on the Yankees there are a number of players who have been valuable this season and on any given day any one of them was the most valuable. Therefore, it stands to reason, to me, that since the Yankees have a plethora of valuable players, none of them will be the most valuable in the league. The argument would be that the Yankees are such a strong team, the loss of any one single player may not have as negative an impact on the team as the loss of, say, Joe Mauer, would have on his team.
I’d love to see Jeter win MVP, but it has to go to Tex. He has made an incredible difference to the ’09 team. Offense AND defense. Having him at 1st has also improved Jeter’s and Cano’s defense.
I don’t think Rodriguez literally carried the Yankees on his back.
Erica – always OPPC
September 15th, 2009 at 11:04 am
GB7-
Don’t be silly. That’s Yoohoo!!! LOL
I wasn’t comparing it to the New York Times. However, it does qualify as a national new source and I had a point to prove!
————————————————————
What’s a few letters between friends? Besides, have you ever tasted YooHoo? It tastes like printer’s ink.
GGBG-
I do see that logic but I’m saying the gap between the wear and tear of an athletic infeilder and the wear and tear of a catcher has shrunk due to the heightened attention of training. I’d like to see Mauer make the play that Jeter made up the middle last night for Phat Phil Coke. Or a diving stab from Tex down the line and then out hustling a speedy baserunner. I’m sure a season of those types of plays wears on Jeter and Tex too.
And I hear the major point I have terrible knees personally and I could not catch for a single game without hurting myself let alone a full 160+ season so in that aspect I respect the reputation of the position but I’m saying that due to the increased speed and ability of players in the game today, age-old biases about what a catcher should and shuold not be able to do are becoming unfair for other position players.
The Ghost -
You make a terrific point. Where would the Yankees be without Alfredo Aceves? He is arguably the one player on this team that would not have been easily replaced.
So Doreen, I guess the MVP would almost always be a great player on a lousy team, given your logic? Ralph Kiner would have been the NL MVP 7 straight years!
OMG!! http://www.nesn.com teixiera leads Yankees over Angels 5-3.NESN gets the reaction from T. Hunter and Mgr Scioscia down plays the previous win of the Angels,over the Yankees.
Don’t tell me last nights game wasn’t a mental game on LAA,and that it didn’t effect them too.
T Hunter says,”This year I think there’s something different
about those guys,it’s a fire,some kind of fire,I’ve seen in those guys.It’s totally different.”
Mgr Scioscia tried to downplay his record against the Yankees.
He said,”You go back 6 or 7 yrs,and it’s a whole different group of players,group of matchups,we by no means have dominated those guys.” WOW,WOW!!
Even Giardi said,”I think it’s important to beat them.”
Now do you understand why it was important last night,to beat them at their own game,Huge mental victory?
The Yankees are in their head,T Hunter never blinks,and he has now!!
THEY KNOW this team is hungry for a win.
“I think you and I have similar thoughts on the meaning of “most valuable”. Just give Mauer an extra big batting champ trophy for doing it as a catcher.”
People are also forgetting that he didn’t play as many games as the guys who are also under consideration (he was on the DL for a good stint) and he also didn’t catch in all of the games that he appeared in. To me, this “he did it as a catcher” stuff is a bit overblown.
My vote is for DJ, go DJ, thats my DJ.
In other news, when the yankees begin there west coast trip they’ll be facing king felix. Does he scare me? Hell yea, but he’s still beatable. Depending on how giradi shuffles the rotation, CC or *gulp* AJ could be facing him. My bets on CC because he will be pitching on his normal 4 day rest.
In felix’s last four starts he’s 3-0 with 0.30 era.
CC is 11-5 away from home with a 3.43 era. Aj is 6-6 5.15 era away.
Just food for thought.
BG#11,
The physical demands at the catching position far exceeds any other defensive position on the field. It always impresses me everytime I watch the catcher run to first base to back up a throw and then get behind the plate and squat down. Hardly a game goes by where they don’t get hit with a foul ball. There’s a reason most catchers are done before age 35. Their knees, jaws and limbs take a serious beating.
the way i think of it is like this. if you had a draft to build a team, but what you were drafting was the production of various guys this year at the positions they play, who would be the number 1 pick? there is no way teixiera’s production would be the number one pick, because there are a number of guys who have been nearly as good. mauer’s numbers at catcher would have made every team in the league better. he is very clearly the MVP. it will be interesting to see if the MVP and Cy Young awards both go to non-playoff teams (as they should this year)
Ben Zobrist since September 1st (including the Rays 11-game losing streak) is batting .186 and slugging .209. He has, essentially, disappeared down the stretch. 13 games doesn’t make a season, and Zorilla has had a great one, but a lot of heads get turned in September when it comes to the MVP races. And Zobrist, right now, isn’t turning any heads.
Hmm…I made a comment that isn’t appearing here. Anyway, the gist is, there IS a definition of MVP printed on the ballot sent to the voters, and while it says there is “no clear-cut definition,” it also gives parameters for that definition that leave NO ROOM AT ALL to argue that the performance of the rest of the player’s team should have anything to do with it.
Mauer is the only choice for MVP. A vote for anyone else should cost one his or her job.
GGBG –
absolutely right about 1999. Pedro Martinez had one of the best seasons a pitcher has ever had. As Yankees fans, we all remember how filthy he was that year, and who won it? Ivan Rodriguez. Horrible.
Wave your hat makes a good point. The best Actor/Director Oscar is almost like a lifetime achievement award in Hollywood and it makes the award even more prestigious by the fact that it take an absolutely superlative performance for an up and comer to beat out a veteran. Mauer should really have to hit .400 or close to it to beat out Jeter this year because of how many times Jeter has been passed over and more importantly – what he’s meant to the game. Mauer should get the same kind of consideration when he’s old and graying. This keeps the award pure and keeps the Ken Caminiti’s and Mo Vaughn’s from watering down a list of what should only be populated by the greatest players in baseball history.
Bill -
Then why have a vote? Just compile the stats and compare. Top guy wins.
I’ve been lurking here for the last year. I’ve been a Yankee fan since 1965. IMO there are some things that need to be said about the posting here. Some of you are unnecessarily and overly critical of Pete. He runs this blog, keeps it going on his days off and knows more about baseball than most of us. Last night was a perfect example. Pete made a point about Jeter bunting in the fifth. If you disagreed with Pete’s point, fine, you want to post about it, fine, but there is no need to tear down Pete to make your point. I live a long way from New York and can read the Times, the Post and all the local newspapers online. I choose to read the LoHud coverage of the Yankees because I think it is simple, to the point and well written. It should be okay to post something critical of the team or its manager here. Betsy sees things from a different perspective than many of you. So what. She is as much a Yankee fan as any of you. It is time some of you stop criticizing Pete and each other. JMVHO.
Pete, who has the other MVP vote in New York?
Matt-
I realize Mauer was a very highly touted catcher out of HS but I’m saying that Major League teams can train players to become anything nowadays so for a matter of comparing an argument I just simply said thats how his team is utilizing, much like how Jorge was molded into a catcher for the Yankees although your right in this aspect Mauer was a catcher since his debut.
Posada and Mauer have both caught 93 games this year. Mauer has only played 16 more games other than the catching position than Jorge has. I think if Jorge Posada was hitting .370 we’d all be supporting him for MVP and rightfully so.
Doreen-
Because there’s often room to disagree who has the “best stats”? Not this year, but often…
1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense. 2. Number of games played. 3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort. 4. Former winners are eligible. 5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.
Those are the factors voters are told to consider. “Actual value” = “strength of offense and defense.” It’s the common sense definition, and it’s the definition they’re actually told to use. Using a definition of “value” that takes into account the team’s performance is not only a complete logical failure, it’s also a failure to follow simple directions.
Jeter should win it simply because Morneau stole it from him in 2006.
“This year, I think it’s something different about those guys,” he said. “It’s a fire, some kind of fire, I see in those guys. It’s totally different.” – Torii Hunter
Yeah baby, going to the SSW Yankees vs Durham Bulls Guv Cup playoff game tonight & tomorrow!!
Doreen,
Have 6 computers chew up the data and spit out the rankings, just like the BCS computer poll.
Vaughan,
Welcome to the board. We just love ragging on Pete. He gets into his little things and chews on it like a doggie bone until he finds something else. First it was the empty Legends seats, then it was the launching pad, and now it’s bunting. He has a point, but we have some valid points, too. He just refuses to acknowledge them.
Pete knows we’re just kidding. The only thing he’s really sensitive about is if anyone questions his integrity or how he does his job. And none of the regulars do that.
EY- even if that were a serious point, Mauer was just as deserving as Jeter was in 2006 (both were infinitely better choices than Morneau). So you’d be more than doubling the injustice against Mauer (who also probably should have won in 2008).
Oooooppppppsss, thats the SWB Yankees…
MVP=most valuable player in either the A.L. or N.L. hence how valuable can you be on a 3rd place team? the best in the entire league? I think not. My thought are that without a playoff appearance you may be great but NOT the most valuable.regardless of me being a Yankee fan for more than 50 years my vote would be for a playoff player period.
Maur missed the month of April with a kidney injury. The Twins were 11-11 without him. With him they are 61-61.
“In NYC maybe. Do you really think anyone outside of New York cares about such a meaningless achievement?”
The Yankees have a huge following throughout the country.
Also, it’s not like New York City is Topeka, Kansas. It’s the largest city in the US and the biggest media market in the world.
oops – Mauer
“Cause you are the speaker for the 28 writers voting???
Don’t speak for others”
You’re right they’re probably just as dumb as you and will take Jeter passing Gehrig into considertation for the MVP vote.
“MVP=most valuable player in either the A.L. or N.L. hence how valuable can you be on a 3rd place team? the best in the entire league? I think not. My thought are that without a playoff appearance you may be great but NOT the most valuable.”
That argument would carry more weight if several players didn’t already win the MVP playing for last place teams. A-Rod won an MVP for a Texas Rangers team that went 71-91. The Twins have already passed that win total.
the 3 possible candidates for AL MVP: Mauer, Teixiera, Morales
Jeter is having a good year but not better than those 3
EY wrote:
Jeter should win it simply because Morneau stole it from him in 2006.
====
Yeah and Morneau is actually doing it to Jeter again considering that without the protection Morneau gives Mauer in the lineup Mauer probably wouldn’t even have a .300 average. It’s going to be interesting to see how Mauer does these last two weeks without that big bat behind him in the lineup.
joeysdadjoe September 15th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Keep in mind that Mauer DHs A LOT.Also gets his regular rest against lefties helping his batting avg etc.Jeter has played a full season.
——————————–
Joey, the fact the Mauer IS a catcher and has hit this consistent is something of an accomplishment as well. The guy goes through more each game than Jeter does, so why wouldnt he take a few games off as DH?
Tom in NJ, you make the best point I’ve seen so far –11-11 without Mauer; 61-61 with. It’s about being the Most Valuable in my opinion…not the Best Player – there’s a difference. Jeter is the catalyst – he makes people around him better. That, to me, makes him the most valuable.
Bill -
Then, your statement that anyone who doesn’t vote for Mauer should lose his job was quite the overstatement, I think.
Teixeira, for instance, has transformed the defense of his team. I don’t know how you separate his personal performance in that regard from the performance of the team. He has also provided a great deal of offense and made a definite impact on the character of the team.
I don’t think it’s a logical failure or a failure to follow rules to look at how a player’s performance has impacted his team’s performance.
I’d also argue that unless the player is a real sleaze, numbers count more than “character” in MVP voting.
I happen to think Joe Mauer deserves the award this season. But I”d have no issue with Teixeira, Jeter, or even the Angels’ guy.
-Haiku-man
Great find on the NESN game reaction from the Angels.Hunter never backs up and boy his words were telling.
For Scioscia to say they never dominated the Yankees,was postering for the showdown,if they lose the series next week.
Bill-
On the numbers, Grady Sizemore should have won in 2006, and Pedroia was unobjectionable in 2008. Personally, I think Derek should have gotten it in 2006, but there’s room for argument.
Derek is very close to Mauer in value if you go just by the stats – closer than Mauer was to Pedroia in 2008. Close enough so that there’s plenty of room to vote for Derek if you think he deserves an MVP once in his career, as I do.
As Derek will probably turn out to be the second greatest SS in baseball history, he ought to win the MVP once.
Reno
September 15th, 2009 at 11:32 am
“Cause you are the speaker for the 28 writers voting???
Don’t speak for others”
You’re right they’re probably just as dumb as you and will take Jeter passing Gehrig into considertation for the MVP vote.
****
Obviously you win the debate, since you had nothing valid to support your argument and had to resort to name calling. Good bye to you!
“Mauer….. will not lead the league in home runs or RBI or runs scored and some old-school batters like seeing those sort of numbers for whatever reason.”
Jeter has 17 HR and 63 RBI. He does have 101 runs scored behind only Figgins and Erica’s PBF.
I think Teixeira is getting a little bit of the shaft. Haven’t we said all season he’s “the difference” between the Yanks and Boston?
He was the difference last night that’s for sure.
“Tom in NJ, you make the best point I’ve seen so far –11-11 without Mauer; 61-61 with.”
Exactly. With him, they are a .500 team. Without him, their a .500 team. An MVP is a difference maker. What difference has Mauer made to the Twins?
m -
That’s what I’m sayin’!!!
(re: computer spit-out)
Won’t happen. There are too many writers that wouldn’t vote for Jeter, or any other Yankee, on a bet. One idiot in Chicago came out and admitted as such in 2006, when he should have won; placed him 6th.
Mauer is having a career…one of the best ever at the plate by a catcher…year, for a mediocre team. If you discount the team’s performance, it would be tough to vote agains him. If you don’t, Jeter qualifies.
Jason R wrote:
That argument would carry more weight if several players didn’t already win the MVP playing for last place teams. A-Rod won an MVP for a Texas Rangers team that went 71-91. The Twins have already passed that win total.
===========
Yeah but Arod’s only competition that year was from Delgado who was on a 3rd place team.
“MVP=most valuable player in either the A.L. or N.L. hence how valuable can you be on a 3rd place team? the best in the entire league? I think not. My thought are that without a playoff appearance you may be great but NOT the most valuable.”.
It’s a team sport, so why would where the team finishes have anything to do with an individual player’s value? Some of you guys must be mentally disabled.
The Ghost
Jeter should hire Arod’s pr agent from 2007 when he stole the MVP from Ortiz using the same logic.
============================================================
Yes because Ortiz with his 35 HRs, 117 RBI, and 3 SB from the DH position should definitely beat out Arod’s 54 HR’s 156 RBI, and 24 SB from the 3B position, A-Rod played more games, and contributed defensively to the team whereas Ortiz only had to hit, and couldn’t even do that better than Arod, I wonder who lets idiots like you access the internet
is 22 games really enough to see who a team is? look at what the royals did to start the season… that was obviously not “who they were”… you can’t be that confident that the twins were a .500 team without mauer… really shortsighted way to look at it
“I think Teixeira is getting a little bit of the shaft. Haven’t we said all season he’s “the difference” between the Yanks and Boston?”
Oh, big time. Alex said the other week that w/o Tex, the Yankees are in 3rd place. If I had an MVP vote, I’d give it to Tex with Jeter as a close second.
Doreen,
Why was my statement an overstatement? I don’t see anything linking your “then.” There is often room to disagree over who the most valuable player is. This year, in the AL, is not one of those times. It should be completely obvious to anyone qualified to hold a vote that Mauer is the MVP. If you can’t even figure this one out, you have no business with a vote, and it’s hard to imagine how you’d be qualified to write about baseball for a major publication.
Again:
“1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.”
That’s the only definition of value that makes being the most valuable player something that’s actually worthy of a major award. And it’s the definition of value that they’re told to use. I don’t see what’s so difficult to understand about this.
Jeter’s year would be worthy of consideration in almost any other year–just not this one. Teixeira is nowhere close, and that Angels guy (Morales) isn’t among the 15 most valuable players in the AL right now.
Jeter is my favorite player and has been since October 1996.i would love nothing more than to see him win the MVP. However, I do not consider him to be the MVP on this team, let alone the league. Mark Texeira is my MVP. The impact he has had on this team is huge. Aside from leading the league in RBIs and possibly HR now that Pena is injured, his defense and intensity are so important. Every talks about much better Jeter and Cano have been this year, and I think 50% of that improvement is from Tex. He snags everything thrown to him, turn 3-4-3 and 3-6-3 double plays better than anyone in the league, nails guys out at home in bases loaded situations, and has cat-like reactions on line drives.
People dimmenish the importance of 1B on the field, and I agree. But we have seen the past few years how much a poor fielding first basemen hurts the team (Andy Pettite lost a number of pickoffs b/c stache couldn’t even throw the ball to second). Conversly, a top notch defensive 1B provides such an anchor for an infield and really is a tremendous asset.
Other items that really push Tex over the top with me is that he bats third, is a really good switch hitter, hustles on every single ball he hits, and as a younger player (relative to this veteran team) has already established himself as a clear leader.
“It’s a team sport, so why would where the team finishes have anything to do with an individual player’s value? Some of you guys must be mentally disabled.”
I’m not sure why you feel the need to resort to maligning people who have opinions that differ from yours, but that’s something for you and your therapist to work out.
I’m glad nobody gave bill an MVP vote because him saying Morales isn’t top 15 is probably one of the stupidest things I’ve heard in awhile
Tom in NJ, you make the best point I’ve seen so far –11-11 without Mauer; 61-61 with. It’s about being the Most Valuable in my opinion…not the Best Player – there’s a difference. Jeter is the catalyst – he makes people around him better. That, to me, makes him the most valuable.
==========
Ummm, wouldn’t that logic make Arod the MVP? I bet Teix wouldn’t argue…
It would be interesting to note how many MVPs on a 500 team got the MVP by winning Batting, slugging and OBP. Typically I can recall the MVPS on such clubs had the RBIs and HRs. So Jete has a chance but so does Tex.It will be very very close vote. I think Jete, Tex and Mauer will all be splitting up the votes.
Laura-
Without Tex, the Yanks are still in the playoffs (3rd place? The Rays are 72-71, 19.5 games back for crying out loud).
Without Tex, the Yanks are probably neck and neck with Boston, still ahead of the Rangers.
Without Tex Swisher is playing 1st base and you have to trot out brett gardner AND melky Cabrera to the outfield, loss of offense and defense, Tex has saved numerous games for us and has done wonders for the 3 spot, he makes a HUGE difference
Did Ortiz know his good friend hit that many homeruns when he was crying about not winning the mvp?
Who would Gammons vote for? He loves Jeter like a son. Has said that Tex is the difference between Boston & NY right now. Somehow, though, he argues that Nick Green is the mvp this year for stabilizing one of the most important position after losing Jed Lowrie.
Wave Your Hat:
That’s true only if you assume (a) that Grady Sizemore really was a Gold Glove centerfielder in 2006, when he’s been roughly average in every other year and (b) that Mauer provided no value at all with his defense. If you give Mauer a couple runs on D (which FanGraphs doesn’t measure for catchers at all) and put Sizemore back to a more realistic level in line with his career, they’re at least even. And Pedroia wasn’t a terrible choice in 2008, but Mauer was better. Again, you have to remember that Mauer gets no credit at all for his defense by WAR.
Jeter is not particularly close to the second best SS in history, and it’s kind of hard to imagine what that should have to do with the 2009 MVP race. If Mauer keeps his pace up for 10 or so more years, he’ll be the runaway best catcher in history…that shouldn’t matter anymore than Jeter’s place in history should, but I’m just sayin’…
I hope Jeter wins he’s having a phenomenal year.
A few days ago I heard a sports guy say,”only the Yankees can make a big deal out of 2700 plus hits,when over 3300 is the record,overall.”
So that’s what he’s up against,ignorance,pettiness,and player haters.
“I think Jete, Tex and Mauer will all be splitting up the votes.”
I don’t. Judging from the various articles I’ve read on the Internet, the sports writers seemed to feel obligated to give it to Mauer because of his BA. Tex and Jeter might each get one 1st place vote. The rest will go to Mauer. Mark my words! I’m sure that will serve as some consolation for Mauer while he’s sitting at home watching Tex and Jeter play DET in the first round of the playoffs. It will most certainly comfort him while he watches Jeter wins his 5th World Series ring.
““1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.””
Actually, there is a considerable amount of ambiguity in this clause of the rule. It says nothing about context – absolute strength vs relative strength vs. context. That’s up to the individual voter to decide.
Also historical usage can’t be ignored, as usage interprets written rules, and historical usage makes it clear that considering the achievement of a player’s team is legitimate.
Uke,
you’re right, that’s giving Morales too much credit–he’s probably closer to #25 than 15.
“Judging from the various articles I’ve read on the Internet, the sports writers seemed to feel obligated to give it to Mauer because of his BA.”
Do you really think that’s why!?!?! It’s not 1985.
Bill -
My first paragraph stands alone. No link to the rest. Your statement is an overstatement because there is room for discussion here. It might not be a huge discussion. No one should lose their job because they don’t vote for Mauer.
How do you measure “actual value?” Isn’t that where there’s room for disagreement? It says value of a player “to his team.” So, to look at how a player impacts the overall performance of his team doesn’t seem like such a stretch, nor does it seem to go against the instructions.
If it’s about numbers, offensive and defensive stats, take the most common stats and compare them. I don’t think “best stats” is nearly as difficult to ascertain as how those stats add value to a team. If guys are close then move to the more ethereal.
“Without Tex, the Yanks are still in the playoffs (3rd place? The Rays are 72-71, 19.5 games back for crying out loud).
Without Tex, the Yanks are probably neck and neck with Boston, still ahead of the Rangers.
”
Hey, I’m just telling you what Alex said. Don’t shoot the messenger.
“Also historical usage can’t be ignored, as usage interprets written rules, and historical usage makes it clear that considering the achievement of a player’s team is legitimate.”
Historically, baseball writers have been idiots, so they should carry on being idiots into the future?
Bill-
Who do you think the second best SS in baseball history is, on a career basis, if not Jeter?
By the time Jeter retires, he will have passed that person’s numbers, whoever it is.
“Judging from the various articles I’ve read on the Internet, the sports writers seemed to feel obligated to give it to Mauer because of his BA.”
“Do you really think that’s why!?!?! It’s not 1985.”
Yeah, I do. I think that most of those guys would rather vote for a guy on a contending team. They don’t feel they can do that this year because Mauer’s batting average is so ridiculous and so high that it has to be honored. Just my opinion.
Wave- it leaves no room for context to be considered. If what they said was “strength of offense and defense” and what they really meant is “relative strength of offense and defense, whatever the hell that means, when you consider whether they play for a playoff team and all sorts of other things that are irrelevant to the strength of their offense and defense,” then they’re idiots who don’t know how to communicate in English. And if they’re idiots who don’t know how to communicate in English, then we probably shouldn’t put any weight in what they intended at all.
Historical usage doesn’t make anything clear at all except that the writers don’t know what they’re doing. Albert Pujols has been both the most valuable player and played on a playoff team and been denied the award (to Ryan Howard in 2006), and Andre Dawson has been the 25th or 30th most valuable player on a last place team and won it (in 1987). There’s nothing to go on there.
For best SS in history you’re looking at a pretty short list. I’m going with Ripken, Wagner, Jeter, and SS A-Rod.
With 2 out and RISP Mauer is hitting .405, slugging .690 with an OPS of 1.259. Those are insane numbers. All of his stats indicate that he’s done his best work in clutch situations.
“Yeah, I do. I think that most of those guys would rather vote for a guy on a contending team. They don’t feel they can do that this year because Mauer’s batting average is so ridiculous and so high that it has to be honored. Just my opinion.”
It’s not his batting average that they care about. It’s the fact that he’s at the top of OBP and SLG while playing a premium defensive position and playing it well.
Wave- Jeter isn’t close enough to #2 to make it worth making a list. Ones that come immediately to mind are Ripken and Vaughan. Depends on where you want to put A-Rod, too.
Barry Larkin and Alan Trammell are two guys who are ahead of Jeter who will have trouble even getting into the Hall.
I think the point is that both Jeter and Tex have helped (along with the others) the Yankees to a commanding lead, and have helped them become the best team in baseball. Not whether or not we’d make the playoffs. We would’ve made the playoffs last season, if Tampa hadn’t impersonated a real contender.
It’s shock and awe, people. Just read what their peers have been saying. Cito, Scoscia, Maddon, Francona have all had to choke on their bile and say nice things about the Yankees.
Jeter with his consistency and leadership, Tex with his bat and glove are getting it done. But to argue that Tex wouldn’t make much of a difference? You’d get laughed out of Boston with that one.
Bill-
Your thinking is straightjacketed. And I also think, if you don’t see that the clause is silent as to context (absolute vs relative vs. contextual (i.e. leveraged), then you need to think some more. You are assuming that the clause only refers to absolute strength, but there is no support in the clause for that assumption.
“It’s not his batting average that they care about. It’s the fact that he’s at the top of OBP and SLG while playing a premium defensive position and playing it well.”
I don’t know about that. If he were batting .330, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
“Wave- Jeter isn’t close enough to #2 to make it worth making a list. Ones that come immediately to mind are Ripken and Vaughan. Depends on where you want to put A-Rod, too.”
Well, that just shows the value of actually thinking and making a list. If you do, you will see that, by the time Jeter retires, he will have past Ripken, Vaughan and ARod.
“I’m not sure why you feel the need to resort to maligning people who have opinions that differ from yours, but that’s something for you and your therapist to work out.”
that sounds kind of like “maligning” the maligner. and it’s so hard to as an objective observer to know who maligned first.
i like how patrick does it.
he just says he’d like to punch your face.
it’s nice and clean and direct.
all this passive/ aggressive stuff of who should see a therapist is kind of weak.
And if the Twins finish up better than 81-81 without Morneau and Crede, does that get Mauer more votes?
Mauer is the AL MVP. Jeter will have to “settle” for ALDS, ALCS or WS MVP.
Check out Mauer’s splits this season. They’re very impressive and show it’s not just about his batting average. http://www.baseball-reference......9&t=b
Wave,
the problem is, you’ve completely invented this idea of “relative strength vs. absolute strength,” so there’s no reason for me to consider it. Maybe they only ever intended the MVP to go to someone with blue eyes? The clause is totally silent as to whether they mean blue-eyed strength or absolute strength.
The performance of the other 24 players on a team doesn’t do anything at all to increase or decrease the strength of a player’s offense or defense, in relative terms or otherwise. That’s a ridiculous and completely uncalled for stretch of the language. Especially when you consider that a plain reading of the language also comports with the only definition of value that makes any kind of sense in the rewarding of an individual award…
Wave Your Hat,
If you’re the best player you are by definition contribution more value to your team than any other player. It doesn’t matter if your team is in last place or first place, you are still contributing more value than anyone else. What more context do you need?
I get such a kick out of this debate. I’ve been an avid follower of baseball for over 30 years, and I don’t think I have spent more than 5 total minutes thinking about who should be MVP in any given season.
I understand Pete’s commitment because it’s his duty this season, but as fans, what difference does it make? When Jeter says in interviews that he doesn’t even think about those awards, I actually believe him. Look, you either win the World Series at the end of the season or you don’t. Nothing else really matters.
Some fans claim satisfaction that A-rod took the ’07 MVP. All I remember about that season were the stinkin’ Red Sox won the World Series. Let Mauer get his useless award while he watches Tex and Jeter play the field in November.
It would be physically impossible for Jeter to surpass Arky Vaughan at this point in his career if he has anything like a human aging pattern. In wins over replacement player terms, Jeter is about 55% of the way there.
Going against Jeter is the fact that he is one of the top 5 highest paid players on the team with the highest payroll.
Sorry, I was looking at the wrong numbers. It’s not impossible for Jeter to pass Arky. But he has a long way to go. And Larkin, Trammell and a slew of others to contend with first.
If you’re just looking for the most productive player on a team, that’s one thing. But then you’ve got to compare one most productive player to others to determine the “most” valuable. It is relative, because you are setting up a comparison – good, better, best; least, most. They are comparative, relative terms. And everything has a context.
Or else, again I say, just freakin’ compare the numbers outright and whoever has the best numbers is the best player overall.
“Or else, again I say, just freakin’ compare the numbers outright and whoever has the best numbers is the best player overall.”
Finally, someone says something that makes sense.
Doreen-
You’re creating a false step there. There’s nothing that suggests that you’re intended to find the most valuable player on every team and then compare his value to the most valuable players on all the other teams (it’s hard to see how the outcome would be any different, but it’s certainly more confusing). The award is for the most valuable player in the league. So it’s relative in that you compare a player to all the other players in the league to determine whether he’s the most valuable, but you’re adding an unnecessary step. In the context of the 2009 American League, Mauer is clearly the most valuable player.
Anyway, Darrin is right. While it would be nice for a hometown player to achieve the MVP, I’m sure they and the fans would be happier with a parade.
i vote for jeter because i think mvp is a combination of personal stats plus team success.
i wouldn’t object to mauer because his individual numbers are so high and his team has been in the hunt.
Bill -
Uncle!!!
We agree that Mauer is the league MVP. My only gripe is the idea that someone should lose their job if they don’t vote for him.
:ARROW:
Doreen-
Yeah, maybe that’s a little harsh. They can keep their jobs, but be put on probation from BBWAA voting or something.
If Mauer played in 140 games instead of 119 games, I wonder if his BA would be as high. I’m just curious.
Clay Bucholz,
You mean like the .347 he hit plaaying 140 games in ’06 or last year’s .328 when he played 146 games? You’re right, he probably wouldnt hit .370, more like his career .327 which is pretty darn good.
I would love for Jeter to get an MVP award, but clearly Mauer deserves it.
If it goes to someone *other* than Mauer, and that someone is NOT Derek Jeter, though, I will be furious!!
“Or else, again I say, just freakin’ compare the numbers outright and whoever has the best numbers is the best player overall.”
That’s too boring. There would be nothing to argue about.
“You mean like the .347 he hit plaaying 140 games in ‘06 or last year’s .328 when he played 146 games? You’re right, he probably wouldnt hit .370, more like his career .327 which is pretty darn good.”
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking Mauer. I’m just asking if he’s hitting 331 instead of 371, would he still be the frontrunner? Those missed games are huge because the argument can be made that over a full season his stats (i.e.. batting average) would be closer to his career average.
I agree that Joe Mauer should be the MVP if the season were to end today.
But if you take the argument for why Mauer should win over Jeter to it’s logical conclusion, if you want to stick to those principles, the guy who is really getting the short end of the stick in the MVP conversation isn’t Mauer – it’s Zach Greinke.
If you want to make the purist argument for MVP based on the idea that MVP shouldn’t come from the team that wins but should go to the player who has contributed more to his particular team than any other (regardless of where that team is in the standings) then Greinke really might be the MVP.
Mauer is having a historic season – but that doesn’t change the fact that he was hurt for a month and contributed no value to his team during that stretch.
Given that and Greinke’s brilliance this year, I’d guess that Zach Greinke is very close to Mauer in contributing to his team winning and might be ahead of him by years end.
I’d have to do some research on it, but I think by the very argument that keeps being made for why Mauer should win – by those principles – Zach Greinke should actually be the MVP.
Clay- if he hit just .250 in those extra 21 games (assuming 4 AB/G), he’d still be hitting .352, and would still be deserving of being a front-runner. There is almost no chance that that extra month would’ve put him close to his career average. An 0-for-84 would put him at .312 (his career average was .317 coming into the season).
If he hit his pre-09 career average in those 21 games (.317), he’d be hitting .363.
Since he’s played pretty much every game since his injury and hasn’t slowed down at all (BAs by month: .414/.353/.309/.391/.391), I don’t think there’s a reason to assume he’d drop off at all.
CB, Pitchers have a Cy Young award in their honor. A guy out there every 5 days > A guy out there once every 5 days
1999 AL MVP Voting
Those who finished ahead of Jeter, and Alomar, were all clearly PED enhanced performances. The writers who did not vote for him owe him, and the rest of us, something.
Barry
I don’t agree with the other Bill. A pitcher can be the MVP (it even says so on the ballot, right around the same place where it says “1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense”). I just don’t think Greinke has been quite as valuable as Mauer.
“Clay- if he hit just .250 in those extra 21 games (assuming 4 AB/G), he’d still be hitting .352, and would still be deserving of being a front-runner. There is almost no chance that that extra month would’ve put him close to his career average. An 0-for-84 would put him at .312 (his career average was .317 coming into the season)”.
I guess we will never know.
But we don’t have to know, since even having missed a month Mauer has provided more value than any other player in the league, and it would be almost impossible for him to have negative value in those extra games.
Jeter was the actual MVP of the AL in both 1999 and 2006, by a number of metrics (win shares and VORP both years, runs created in 1999). Yes, he was more valuable than Pudge (who won) or Pedro in 1999. He was clearly ahead of Morneau in 2006 in all three metrics. Jeter was robbed twice.
This year, Mauer is way ahead in VORP (81.3 to Jeter’s 2nd place 59.8), edges out Zobrist and Jeter in WAR (7.2 to their 6.9 and 6.3) and also leads the AL in runs created (121 to Teix’s 119). I don’t have win shares this year, but I assume Mauer is the AL leader.
So Mauer should be the MVP, unless team success is considered. And Jeter, at least by several metrics baseball stats people use, has been clearly more valuable than Teix this year (Teix 4.5 WAR, 41.4 VORP). My own impression is that Teix has gotten more big hits, and has dramatically improved the defense, and has been nearly equal to Jeter in value.
UPDATE:
Win shares as of 9-10-99:
AL
1 – Mauer 27.1
2 – Cabrera 24.7
3 – Jeter 24.5
4 – Ichiro 23.7
5 – Teixeira 23.4
6 – Greinke 23.3
7 – Figgins 23.2
8 – Youkilis 23.0
9 – F. Hernandez 22.2
10 – Morales 21.9
So Mauer is the clear statistical MVP. Will it pan out that way?
Jeter was more valuable than Pedro in ’99 because he beat Pedro in…runs created?? Hmm.
Mauer had at least as much of a claim to the 2006 MVP as Jeter did.
Jeter has twice been much more deserving of the MVP award than the actual winner, but I’m not convinced he actually deserved either one.
Jeter clearly beat Pedro in win shares in 1999. Your statement re: Jeter and Mauer is factually incorrect. Jeter had a much stronger claim:
2006 AL
Win shares: Jeter 33, Morneau 27
VORP: Jeter 78.8, Morneau 52.7
Win shares: Jeter 6.3, Morneau 4.4
Next time, don’t bring a pea shooter to a gun fight.
ETA: that last figure should be
WAR: Jeter 6.3, Morneau 4.4
Grady Sizemore actually led the AL in WAR in 2006, but Jeter beat him handily in the other 2 metrics.
Jeter was robbed twice in the MVP voting.
All interesting stuff.
The voting rules do stipulate (I believe) that the voter should take into account the number of games played. I wonder if the fact that Mauer has missed approximately 20% of the Twins games will impact anyone’s vote.
“Next time, don’t bring a pea shooter to a gun fight”.
I actually did that once, but I won the fight anyway. Talk about luck, the guy slipped on one of my peas and accidentally shot himself.
Win Shares undervalue fielding.
Use WAR.
Jeter should have won in 2006. The fact that Pedroia won it last year for essentially the same stats is a slap in the face. Forget Mauer & the garbage Twinkies, Jete’s the MVP.
Team record should NOT be a factor in determining the MVP. In fact, it explicitly states this in the letter to MVP voters. Why? Without Mauer, the Twins would be cellar dwellers. Without Jeter, the Yanks may very well still be heading to the playoffs. Put another way, if the Twins were to have traded Mauer for Jeter at the beginning of the year, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the Twins would have a worse record than they have now, and the Yanks a better record. THAT is the definition of an MVP – the player that adds the most significant difference to their team, regardless of its record. What if Mauer hit above .400? Would we STILL be saying team record matters? What if Mauer hit 1.000, and the Twins managed only 40 wins? At what point does a player’s performance eclipse the lousy team his owners field around him? For goodness sake, Mauer’s season is easily the best ever given by a catcher in the history of the game, but there are those considering giving a “lifetime achievement award” to a poor defensive/decent hitting shortstop? Simply because Mauer’s cheap ownership won’t surround him with better talent?
Lame. There is an award for great careers – the Hall of Fame. There is an awards for having the best offensive AND defensive season – the MVP. Yankees fans that have to pull out such ridiculous “intangibles” like “team leader” and “clubhouse favorite,” prove the defendant has no case. Thou doth protest too much. Case closed.
MattNC: next time you want to say something ridiculously overblown like “Next time, don’t bring a pea shooter to a gun fight,” try to make sure you know what you’re talking about. Why are you comparing Jeter and Morneau when I’m talking about Jeter and Mauer? Jeter had a 6.3 WAR in 2006, Mauer 6.1. WAR doesn’t even try to measure catcher defense; if Mauer saved just three runs over an average catcher (and there’s a 100.0% chance he did better than that), he moves ahead. It should’ve gone to either Jeter or Mauer and not Morneau. I’d have given it to Mauer, but the advanced stats don’t give a clear edge to either.
I like how you freely you move from one advanced metric to the other as it tends to prove your point. Sure, Jeter beat Pedro in Win Shares (and I love Bill James, but “advanced metric” is a stretch on that one). They were essentially dead even in VORP, which doesn’t factor in Jeter’s poor defense.
I’m not saying Jeter clearly didn’t deserve either of those. But to act like the numbers make it that clear that it was he, and not Pedro and Mauer, who were robbed of those is just silly. To throw a “Next time, don’t bring a pea shooter to a gun fight” in at the end of such an attempt is downright hilarious.
Actually, gnellie is not exactly correct.
While the rules stipulate that the winner need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier. A voter can certainly use that as his or her own criteria.
There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter.
Except that “Actual value to his team” = “strength of offense and defense,” among a number of other considerations, which effectively precludes team success as being part of the consideration. Not to mention the fact that considering team success in deciding an individual award is profoundly stupid.
Clay,
You are correct. I may not have stated my point as clear as I could have. However, there are those that are dismissing Mauer outright because his team (most likely) won’t make the playoffs. This assumes that team record is a necessary criteria, which it isn’t. The fact that the letter to writers makes a special effort to clarify this should be taken even more seriously – the assumption that the player MUST come from a playoff team is erroneous. Team record may be a factor, perhaps, but is not a requirement.
What if I told you Minnesota has a better record in games Mauer doesn’t start?
Jay,
The fact that the Twins had a better record this season when Mauer wasn’t in the lineup is a ridiculous point to make when trying (weakly) to discredit his historically significant season. First, the sample size is too small. Second, you would have to look at the schedule for the Twins in that first month, and the performance of other players. The Twins starters completely collapsed down the road for a number of reasons, none of which were Mauer’s fault. Morneau’s production completely fell off, partly due to a stress fracture in his back. Etc., etc. The fact is, had Mauer been unable to play this year, the Twins would have had a MUCH worse record than they do now. To argue otherwise is ludicrous.
Jay- telling us that as though it means something or makes a difference in this discussion would mark you as someone who really doesn’t understand baseball or statistics and has a confounding lack of common sense. Best to hold on to that little nugget and enjoy it in silence.
Jay,
Perhaps I should put it another way…
The Yanks are a better team than the Twins. If Mauer’s presence in the Twins’ lineup makes them a lesser team, than it follows, logically, it would make the Yanks a lesser team. There is simply no way you would bench Mauer if he were playing in pinstripes (or any other uniform). The fact that the Twins had a better record without him this season is a statistical anomaly.
Clay,
“You are correct. I may not have stated my point as clear as I could have. However, there are those that are dismissing Mauer outright because his team (most likely) won’t make the playoffs. This assumes that team record is a necessary criteria, which it isn’t. The fact that the letter to writers makes a special effort to clarify this should be taken even more seriously – the assumption that the player MUST come from a playoff team is erroneous. Team record may be a factor, perhaps, but is not a requirement”.
You are right.
Not that it’s the end-all of stats, but Jeter is actually *7th* on the team in OPS. I was shocked to see that. (Actually tied for 7th with Cano.)
And as of this moment, Tex’s OPS is 932 and A-Rod’s is 931. I know nobody has noticed, but A-Rod has had a decent if not monster year, especially coming off surgery.
Dave – to piggyback on your point, Mauer’s OPS is currently at 1.044. An OPS above 1.00 for a catcher is ridonkulous.
Pete,
You wrote: “Mauer is leading the league in batting average, on-base percentage and slugging percentage”
Well, they have an accolade for the man with the highest batting avg- it’s called the batting champ! Yes, Mauer is probably the bets hitter this year but does that make him the most VALUABLE player?
First of all, when the season ends…. Mauer would have played in about 75% or Minny’s games. That means he missed 25% of the season. This means something, right?
Aside from being AL’s best hitter, Mauer will probably have about 30 HRs. Not bad, but overhyped b/c he wan’t a HR hitter before this year. He’s also a gold glove caliber catcher.
NOW…. I feel Mark Teixeira might be more deserving. Why? Well, what if he wins 2/3 of the Triple Crown. What if Tex ends up being the AL leader in HRs & RBI? Add a gold glove caliber defense…. what do you got?
A guy who was the best defensive player at his position, who led the league in HR & RBI, on the best team in baseball? When does a guy with this resume NOT win the MVP?
You know what, Justin Morneau beat Jeter in 2006 for the MVP. Jeter got robbed. Actually, Jeter’s 2006 season was better than Pedroia’s 2008 campaign. AND, Mornaeu’s 2008 season was better than his MVP 2006 season? Explain?
Mornaeu bested his 2006 stats in 2008 in every category by HR. He was short by 9 HRs. BUT, what did Morneau do last year? He carried Minny into a 1-game playoff with CHI for the DIV title…. He did this when nobody thought MInny had a chance. Why? Minny lost Santana, Garza, Hunter & Bartlett…. 4 All-Stars (2 of which carried TB to the WS).
Minny lost all 4 of those players and they still tied for the DIV title. WOW! Still, Mornaeu doesn’t win the MVP. In 2006, Morneau won the MVP playing with the batting champ (Mauer) and the Cy Young Winner (Santana). SO, there goes the notion that Jeter and Teixeira cancel each other out.
Mark Teixeira should win the MVP. Jeter is also deserving, especially if he reaches the 20 HR range.
Mauer is not an MVP if his team is under .500. He’s the batting champ.
Every single major league team would take Mauer over Jeter. It’s not even close.
If that isn’t a factor in MVP then what is?
Very thoughtfull post on achievements. It should be very much helpfull
Thanks,
Karim – Positive thinking