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Posada should be above that

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Podcast on Sep 16, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

I realize this is largely a waste of time because fans will see what they want to see. I’m the same way with my teams. But I’m stubborn, so here goes:

Jesse Carlson is a two-bit middle reliever on a fourth-place team, a 28-year-old guy who has been with four organizations. No matter where he stands or what he says or anything else, Jorge Posada needs to avoid confrontation. Give Carlson a dirty look. Don’t give MLB a reason to suspend you.

At one point in the brawl, I saw CC Sabathia and A.J. Burnett wrestling with assorted Jays and Mark Teixeira having his shoulders pulled back and even Derek Jeter getting agitated. The Yankees are an old and fragile team already, risking injury because Posada is mad at the likes of Jesse Carlson is not worth losing the World Series.

The Yankees lead baseball in hit batters, which is fine. Pitchers have every right to pitch inside. But if you’re going to play it that way, you have to expect retaliation from time to time. That is how the game has been played for 100 years.

Carlson threw a waist-high off-speed pitch that was several feet behind Posada. He didn’t throw at his head. That should have been the end of it, as Joe Girardi said. It wasn’t, and now we’ll hear what Bob Watson has to say about it.

Girardi was pretty ripped after the game. It doesn’t make a manager look good when these things happen.

Some folks asked, so here is the Posada audio:

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129 Responses to “Posada should be above that”

  1. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus September 16th, 2009 at 1:19 am

    It’s not this incident but what the Yankees do next that will really show who the Yankees are.

    The best retaliation is to go out and win. They didn’t tonight, but maybe tomorrow.

  2. Christina- Pictures of the Girardi and A-Rod ejection + Leiter's Sock September 16th, 2009 at 1:22 am

    Was that Shelley Duncan going after Barajas on the ground? Ay yi yi. What a nut.

  3. Stultus Magnus September 16th, 2009 at 1:24 am

    Geez, this non-story is growing.

    So, since Nosferatu is a two-bit reliever, he can do whatever he pleases?

    Pete, it might have been a bone-headed move by Posada.

    Get over the rest of it.

  4. CK in LA September 16th, 2009 at 1:25 am

    Any more word on Darryl Cousins? Can a team get fined for “allowing” a fan to throw a bottle at an Umpire?

  5. Free Mike Vick September 16th, 2009 at 1:26 am

    I’m sorry Pete…but we will have to agree to disagree. If someone yells “hey f$&@ you”…I am going to do something about it. Whether I’m a baseball player…or a costumer service rep for a sports card company(which is what I do)!

    Make no mistake Posada shouldn’t have gave Carlson that little elbow tap…but once he did and carlson says something to him…all bets are off!

  6. Alex September 16th, 2009 at 1:28 am

    Pete, the way you’re overreacting to this, you’d think Cashman has fielded a team of Faberge Eggs.

  7. nature boy September 16th, 2009 at 1:28 am

    haha at the posada audio at the end “i didn’t start anything”. and i’m going to go out on a limb and say tonight isn’t going to cost the yankees the world series. if they make the world series, jorge posada causing a bench clearing brawl on september 15 where there are no reported injuries isn’t going to cost them a best of seven series at the end of october.

  8. Joe September 16th, 2009 at 1:29 am

    Pete is absolutely correct. One of the only things that can completely end the season is a major injury to an important player like the ones Pete mentioned. Just imagine if CC had gotten hurt. Joba then becomes the #3 starter and Gaudin the #4. We’d be finished. Jorge should have kept his cool there, there’s too much at stake.

  9. stuart September 16th, 2009 at 1:31 am

    pete with his usual right and wrong drivel.. the code.. the code for baseball a proffession in which most participants barely graduated high school.

    all pete wrote would be correct if Melancon hit Hill intentionally and all know he did not. I complained in the blog 20 minutes before he hit Hill that why can’t he throw strikes..

    Then you have tough guy, tattoo head Carlson who the yanks have lit up this year throwing 2 feet behind a batter… Nah no big deal, ask the guy from the bronx on the Jays if getting hit in the face with a pitch is no big deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    the yanks took crap from teams for years when ambassador torre ran the show and now the yare done with that routine, playing nice and fair gets you jack…………..

    the jays are losers, there manager has no clue of the supposed code, and baseball will do whatever they want the yare as poorly judged as other sports.

    how was that penalty on al harris of greenbay the other night that almost lost the game???A joke phantom call, or the raider non touchdown>>>

    marty barrett and the other hack umps have no clue……..

    the only thing I am mad about is that Posada did not do more damage to carlson and his other code followers…………

  10. Jones September 16th, 2009 at 1:32 am

    I agree, as soon as he threw the ball behind Posada, it should of been dropped at that point. Sorry was it really a surprise? Who cares what Carlson chirped, just walk away. Don’t put your team in a bad position.

  11. Bronx Jeers September 16th, 2009 at 1:33 am

    Nah, it’s not really a waste of your time because they’re all really good points.

    Can’t really argue with any of it. I get the feeling Posada is in agreement as well.

    2 things looking at the standings

    I’m happy for the Giants. 2.5 games back in the NL wildcard race. They’re my NL team of choice.

    Seattle has the 6th best record in the AL. They’re only 3 games over .500 but still, an enormous improvement over last season.

  12. stuart September 16th, 2009 at 1:34 am

    this is a big deal to; pete. nespn, and the other trolls that is about it.

    yanks win by 6 runs tommorrow….

  13. Stultus Magnus September 16th, 2009 at 1:36 am

    Pete wants an active discussion, so it’s overreaction to the brawl, Posada was totally at fault, etc.

    The story should be that Girardi is pissed at Posada and not backing up his guy and that Cousins left the game with an injury.

    I’d like to hear more about that.

    Not “Carlson’s innocent journey to the mound, interrupted.”

  14. Bronx Jeers September 16th, 2009 at 1:37 am

    Stuart you’re way off base here. You got to look at the big picture. Yanks gain nothing from this brawl. They just lose their catcher and risk senseless injury.

    “Nah no big deal, ask the guy from the bronx on the Jays if getting hit in the face with a pitch is no big deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

    That guy laughed it off. I think he may have been spitting out teeth but he basically moved on immediately.

  15. Jhn E September 16th, 2009 at 1:39 am

    They made a good point about it on baseball Tonight, too. Usually a pitcher will be backing up a play like that on the third base side…not on the first base side directly in Posada’s line.

    The dude just threw behind Posada and then is standing out of place right behind home plate staring at him as he gets home. So Posada throws a tiny elbow, big deal. This stuff happens. It’s baseball.

  16. XLJ September 16th, 2009 at 1:42 am

    Jhn E
    September 16th, 2009 at 1:39 am
    They made a good point about it on baseball Tonight, too. Usually a pitcher will be backing up a play like that on the third base side…not on the first base side directly in Posada’s line.

    The dude just threw behind Posada and then is standing out of place right behind home plate staring at him as he gets home. So Posada throws a tiny elbow, big deal. This stuff happens. It’s baseball.

    —————————————–

    I agree then Carlson he turned around and started yelling at Jorge. He barely got grazed by Jorge. Posada got caught up in the emotion of things. It happens its not really a big deal.

  17. Joe September 16th, 2009 at 1:42 am

    The issue isn’t whether or not the Yankees win by 6 runs tomorrow, that’s fairly irrelevant as far as clinching the division and best record. The Yankees are still going to clinch even with Posada getting suspended. The issue is that someone could have gotten hurt, somebody really important like CC and that would have ruined us for the playoffs.

  18. John September 16th, 2009 at 1:43 am

    Why is nobody mentioning that Giambi was hitting .195 with Oakland and got released?

  19. Carl September 16th, 2009 at 1:44 am

    Carlson could have walked away just as easily as Posada. This is on both of them. Posada rush around the ump, Carlson rushed around Barajas.

  20. Al September 16th, 2009 at 1:45 am

    Do people realize that Andy, with his sore shoulder, was at the bottom of that pile with like 10 guys on top of him trying to restrain Duncan or whoever was wrestling with Barajas?

  21. Jones September 16th, 2009 at 1:46 am

    “Why is nobody mentioning that Giambi was hitting .195 with Oakland and got released?”

    Wasn’t that a while ago?

  22. Christina- Pictures of the Girardi and A-Rod ejection + Leiter's Sock September 16th, 2009 at 1:47 am

    Who cares about Giambi? And hes on the Rockies now doing just fine as their clutch PH

  23. Shep September 16th, 2009 at 1:48 am

    Carlson – 1
    Posada – 0

    The middling middle reliever on a 3rd place team got the key cog on a WS contending team suspended and could have gotten one of his teammates hurt.

    It’s not like Duncan and Melancon were brawling.. CC, AJ, Tex, Damon, were all right in the action.

  24. Nick in SF September 16th, 2009 at 1:48 am

    Andy was just trying to meet another incentive.

    One brawl = one inning in his contract.

  25. Peter R September 16th, 2009 at 1:48 am

    They all acted like big babies. You would think grown men could handle some name calling and typical baseball throwing behind. Posada disappointed me tonight as did most of the team who was out there throwing punches.

    I understand emotions can sometimes get high but:
    a) That why you get paid the big bucks…grow up.
    b) Its hardly like this game was big emotionally. They lose to Roy…big deal win tomorrow and still hold off the Red Sox for the East. Not a big game at all.

    Stupid fight, stupid time of year to do it. Girardi should have them all doing laps tomorrow.

    I think John Sterling’s call of the fight was the best, “what was that about?”…”Macho baseball men getting all upset about stupid little things.” (or something like that)

  26. El Nino September 16th, 2009 at 1:50 am

    Dunn was right in the middle of it too… nice to see the Cranton kids getting in on the action. And who can forget Edwar pushing Cito LOL

  27. TurboWei September 16th, 2009 at 1:51 am

    John, that has happened like more than ten games ago?
    That is like forever in internet age.

    Wei

  28. Peter R September 16th, 2009 at 1:51 am

    Would have preferred another form of team building thanks. lol

  29. Stultus Magnus September 16th, 2009 at 1:52 am

    “Why is nobody mentioning that Giambi was hitting .195 with Oakland and got released?”

    ===========

    Probably because it was mentioned a month ago…

  30. Frank September 16th, 2009 at 1:52 am

    Girardi needs to lighten up… it is apart of the game and the team looked like they had fun doing it. Last thing he needs to do is start becoming uptight again and not letting the players have fun.

  31. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 1:53 am

    o’Realy
    Some of the fans on here won’t defend there team because they are passive like Torre was from 2002-2007. They believe that the Yankees should continue the corporate culture of going about there business and not responding when a team attacks them or challenges them.

    It’s not like Jorge beat a kid, and who cares what other people including kids watching the game are going to think. Some people act like we live in some perfect society. PLEASE !

    repost

  32. 100 pitches of fun... September 16th, 2009 at 1:55 am

    It was pretty funny to see Edwar all up in the brawl. He is 90 pounds soaking wet. He could of been pulled apart like string cheese.

  33. Ez Rep September 16th, 2009 at 1:55 am

    Carlson gave up that big HR to Posada last month that gave us the lead. Matsui and PO hit them back to back off him.

  34. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 1:56 am

    Now I’m not saying the Yankees should pick fights but the Blue Jays attacked the Yankees so Posada is not the only one at fault. This team should go about it’s business but fight back when it is attacked. Torre turned this team into a doormat from 2002-2007, and now they are finally standing up.

  35. Tank September 16th, 2009 at 1:57 am

    From the game recap -

    “I don’t know if that was too smart. They have a lot more to lose than we do,” Blue Jays manager Cito Gaston said.

  36. Ed H. September 16th, 2009 at 1:58 am

    Nothing here is important except that Posada jeopardized the Yankees’ season – and potentially the health and careers of his teammates – by falling for Carlson’s two-bit provocation. That is all that is important here.

  37. Alex September 16th, 2009 at 2:01 am

    Francessa is going to kill Jorge tomorrow and rightfully so.

  38. Carl September 16th, 2009 at 2:02 am

    Alex September 16th, 2009 at 2:01 am

    Francessa is going to kill Jorge tomorrow and rightfully so.

    Oh no! What will we do now!

  39. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 2:02 am

    Frank
    You are right. Pete and some of these people are taking this too seriously. They act like the Yankees should just roll over when teams attack them. Well I’m glad that they are fighting back and I hope they continue to fight back. This team for many years has lacked heart and determination which resulted in failure after failure in the postseason. Now things have changed.

  40. Jones September 16th, 2009 at 2:02 am

    Jeremy,

    Yes, we don’t live in a perfect society. & people act like that because it does rub off on kids. I have my little 9 year old brother who thinks its cool what he saw on tv. So forgive me if I do care what he thinks. Its fine if they respond, but not when its so close to the playoffs & someone could get hurt.

  41. Giuseppe Franco September 16th, 2009 at 2:04 am

    Well, Francesa has earned the respect of the fans. LOL.

    Why anyone cares what Francesa thinks about anything is beyond me.

  42. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 2:04 am

    “I don’t know if that was too smart. They have a lot more to lose than we do,” Blue Jays manager Cito Gaston said.

    Who cares what that idiot Gasbag has to say. He hates the Yankees.

  43. o'Realy September 16th, 2009 at 2:05 am

    You guys make it seem like Jorge lead the team into a prison riot. When did athletes become so damn fragile? I understand the risk is there, but injuries happen all over the place.

    How about if Jorge doesn’t do anything and Carlson decides to hit another one of our guys to even the score. Now let’s say that person was Derek Jeter and he injures his wrist getting hit by the pitch. If that happened, people would be saying that someone should’ve done something to Carlson before he had the chance to hurt one of our guys.

  44. E-Rod September 16th, 2009 at 2:07 am

    Has any manager openly hated the Yankees as much as Cito does?

  45. JRod September 16th, 2009 at 2:07 am

    The Jays aren’t in the same class as the Yankees right now this late in the season. The fight was like taking home the bottom of the skank ladder girl from the bar. Sure, it feels good when your caught up with everything and inside it. But afterwards, you feel ashamed and wondering what you were thinking. Worst case scenario, you need to go to the doctor.

    In conclusion, the Jays are bar skanks. The Yankees can do better than that.

  46. Giuseppe Franco September 16th, 2009 at 2:09 am

    Who cares if Gaston hates the Yanks or not?

    His team is a disaster. He’ll be lucky if he’s still managing this team a year from now.

  47. Banks September 16th, 2009 at 2:09 am

    Has Jim linked this incident to the Jays working with the Red Sox, or something of that nature, yet?

  48. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 2:11 am

    Jones
    The only bad part was that someone could have been hurt. I’m just glad that Torre’s passive attitude is gone. And people fight all the time so I doubt that this “experience” will effect the foundation of society as we know it. lol !

  49. 100 pitches of fun... September 16th, 2009 at 2:12 am

    Was Cito’s point that the Yanks should allow themselves to be thrown at and then after that allow a loser pitcher to try and start something and not do anything because “they have something to lose”? Posada was out of line but teams just aren’t used to these Yanks that protect themselves. I guess loser teams like the Jays can do whatever they want since getting suspended doesn’t matter since their team isn’t competitive.

  50. REZ September 16th, 2009 at 2:13 am

    Would it shock anyone if Cito orchestrated this himself?

    Talk about a bitter man.

  51. o'Realy September 16th, 2009 at 2:15 am

    Would it shock anyone if Cito orchestrated this himself?
    Talk about a bitter man.
    —————————

    Nah, probably just a publicity stunt for Jorge’s new book.

  52. Pat M. September 16th, 2009 at 2:17 am

    Dodger Andre Ether is a stud, as he delivers once again as the Dodgers win with another walkoff thanks to Ether….

  53. 100 pitches of fun... September 16th, 2009 at 2:19 am

    Cito is a joke. Who cares what he has to say his team isn’t even competitive.

    “I have a lot of respect for the Yankees and the organization, but I’m the sort of guy who believes you don’t let those things happen especially when you have a chance to win the division and maybe the World Series.”

  54. XLJ September 16th, 2009 at 2:19 am

    100 pitches of fun…

    “Was Cito’s point that the Yanks should allow themselves to be thrown at and then after that allow a loser pitcher to try and start something and not do anything because “they have something to lose”? Posada was out of line but teams just aren’t used to these Yanks that protect themselves. I guess loser teams like the Jays can do whatever they want since getting suspended doesn’t matter since their team isn’t competitive.”

    —————-

    Exactly just because the yankees are a great team that doesn’t mean they cant protect themselves and let other teams hit them intentionally. Like Girardi said there is a lot of passion in baseball.

    At the time Jorge wasn’t thinking about the playoffs or possibly injuring teamates it happened so quick. His emotions took over when he saw Carlson standing right next to the plate its a part of the game.

  55. PD September 16th, 2009 at 2:22 am

    This whole thing is such a non-issue it’s not even funny. It has absolutely NO BEARING on what happens to the Yankees the rest of the season or the playoffs. It just doesn’t matter. Even if Posada gets suspended for a few games, so what? Does it really make a difference at this point in this season? No, it doesn’t.

    Meanwhile, Posada DID NOT “throw an elbow”. If Posada wanted to throw an elbow, Carlson would have been knocked to the ground. An elbow “thrown” does damage. What Jorge did, was brush Carlson out of the way. He bumped him as he went by to let him know he was still pisssed for throwing behind him. No elbows were thrown. For Carlson to react the way he did to what Posada did was ridiculous. To me, that says Carlson was waiting on that side of the plate (he should have been on the other side to back up the throw) because he WANTED something happen. He WANTED Posada to shove or elbow him. It was a total non issue what Jorge did, he ran by Carlson and brushed him aside. The way Carlson reacted, you would have thought Jorge punched him in the kidney or something.

    Bottom line, Carlson is a joke who has no talent and has never been able to get Yankees out on a consistent basis. The Jays season is about to be over and the Yankees are heading for the World Series. Something is telling me the Yankees don’t give two craps about what happened tonight. What they are probably upset about is that inexplicably, they have to open and close next season at Fenway. After opening and closing on the road this year. That is a joke. They should rotate that every single season.

  56. Josh September 16th, 2009 at 2:27 am

    But he’s not “above it” Pete and I don’t think he ever will be. I appreciate his sentiment about wanting to be a good role model for his children but Posada has too much of a short fuse to be anything near rational when something like this happens.

    He was obviously stewing about being shown up by a rookie the minute Carlson threw behind him and Posada was just waiting for Carlson to give him a reason to throw him to the ground. Carlson probably didn’t even need to saying anything to Posada to get a reaction…a dirty look probably would’ve been enough.

    Look there are a handful of players in this game right now who don’t like being shown up…Posada, Youk, Milton Bradley and of course Prince Fielder. It’s just a known fact and I’m actually surprised Carlson decided to throw behind Posada…he had to have some inkling that Posada wasn’t going to let that stand because as I said “he’s not above it” regardless the fact that many of us wish he was.

  57. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 2:29 am

    I bet you if Torre was manager he would have sat there or tried to have some tea with cito gaston. Posada may have been wrong but at least this team fights back.

  58. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 2:33 am

    Oh no Posada don’t fight think of the millions of children watching this game. LOL PLEASE ! Pete and some of the posters are over the top. “Think about the children”
    Yeah like kids have never fought or seen fights before.

  59. PD September 16th, 2009 at 2:33 am

    I mean who really cares about Cito Gaston? Maybe he would rather be the manager of the team that is 40 games above .500 instead of the team that has floundered at the bottom of the AL East for years? Is it maybe possible he is bitter about getting pounded by divisional foes all season and knowing that won’t be changing for next 10 years? Not that he will be there that long. Cito, this ain’t the early 90s bro. Keep talking, maybe all that BS you spew will take you back in time to your glory years

  60. Peter Abraham September 16th, 2009 at 2:33 am

    Jeremy:

    Torre’s passive attitude? You can’t be serious. He was an All-Star player, helped formed the MLBPA, managed assorted teams and led the Yankees to their greatest success in 40+ years and he was passive? Oh, and he beat cancer.

    I suspect you’ve never met the man. But if you called him passive, you’d be looking up at him from the floor.

  61. m September 16th, 2009 at 2:34 am

    How could Cito orchestrate Jorge losing his cool like that?

    Girardi was pissed probably first and foremost because someone could’ve gotten hurt. The only time my daughter’s coach gets really, really upset is when she does something that could get her hurt.

    Second, Girardi’s apparently got a welt on his eye and his ear got bloodied.

    Lastly, it was a bush league move by Posada. He should’ve just moved along. Imagine if A-rod did that? OMG, the overreaction would be over the top.

    So, I can see why Girardi is upset. But this will all blow over. We’ve gotten over distractions far worse than this season, so this should be no different.

  62. Peter Abraham September 16th, 2009 at 2:35 am

    Jeremy: The Yankees were a doormat from 2002-07?

    They led the major league in wins during that time. Try again.

  63. Pat M. September 16th, 2009 at 2:36 am

    Jeremy, You really need to think before you hit the enter key…….Just be thankful nobody from the Yanks were injured…..Passive, get a clue

  64. Carl September 16th, 2009 at 2:37 am

    Joe Torre will NOT be called PASSIVE!

  65. o'Realy September 16th, 2009 at 2:39 am

    A bush league move!? You’re insane! People saying that Posada delivered a cheap shot or a bush league move are really reaching here. The fact remains, Carlson was standing right in Jorge’s path. And, as any human being that is a little angry would do, he gave him a “get back” shove and kept moving. Carlson was the one that kept things going. He could’ve allowed Jorge to get ejected and went back to the mound, but it didn’t happen like that.

    A little nudge of someone that’s in your way is not bush league though, not at all.

  66. Nick in SF September 16th, 2009 at 2:39 am

    Did you notice what Jose Molina did to help during the fight?

    Neither did I. :(

    Goodnight!

  67. m September 16th, 2009 at 2:39 am

    I don’t think Torre was passive, we don’t know what was said behind closed clubhouse doors.

    But Torre was mellow. The only time I saw him angry was at that days after he turned down the Yankee offer. haha. just kidding.

  68. PD September 16th, 2009 at 2:44 am

    that wasn’t “bush league” by Posada. That’s a uninformed statement and extremely off base. CARLSON SHOULD NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN STANDING THERE. He should have been on the other side of the plate, backing up the throw. I mean seriously what is he doing there? I’ll tell you, just like I did before- he was waiting for Posada. He wanted a confrontation, Jorge to say something, to shove him, something. All Jorge did was something I’ve done at times, and others I know.. back in high school sometimes, walking down the hall… maybe someone you don’t like- you just keep walking. You don’t get out of the way. It’s not an elbow, it’s practically nothing. It just lets the other person know you’re not moving and you don’t care for them. It’s not “bush league”. Get a clue.

  69. E-gawa September 16th, 2009 at 2:45 am

    This is geting elbowed..

    http://www.aerojockey.com/fark/elbow.jpg

    http://media.lawrence.com/img/.....w_t600.jpg

    http://www.ibiblio.org/footy/i.....7wej35.jpg

  70. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 2:45 am

    Okay guys I guess I touched a nerve because I called Torre passive and maybe I was wrong. But you have to admit that he was weak in terms of defending his players. Here is a question for Pat M., Pete, and Carl : when did Torre from 2002-2007 respond when the team was attacked ?

    Torre was a good manager and yeah the Yankees won a lot of games from 2002-2007 but how many times did we see Torre do nothing as Yankee players got hurt by pitchers like Pedro ?

  71. m September 16th, 2009 at 2:46 am

    If Carlson is standing in front of or on the plate, then he has every right to run through Carlson. But once Posada crossed, the wise move as one of the club leaders would’ve been to veer wide of Carlson.

    You guys who are giving a pardon to Posada need to flip sides. What if that was Youkilis crossing the plate and threw an elbow at Melancon?

  72. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 2:50 am

    Pete
    I wasn’t talking about wins from 2002-2007, I was talking about the Yankees fighting back when other teams like Boston attacked Yankee batters (example. Jeter, Soriano 2003). Try again.

  73. D-man September 16th, 2009 at 2:51 am

    m:

    Then you brawl.

  74. m September 16th, 2009 at 2:51 am

    I like the name that Yankee picture from spring training better. :(

    I don’t know the numbers too well, but I know that Hideki is 55, which in Japanese (ochocinco style) is “Go Go”.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09.....f=baseball

  75. m September 16th, 2009 at 2:53 am

    Dman,

    Do you think Youkilis will think twice before barking at a Yankee?

    I totally do.

  76. o'Realy September 16th, 2009 at 3:00 am

    m,

    you’re insane on this one. and i can’t believe that your making a comparison that favors youkilis’s attitude over jorge’s. that’s just crazy.

    this is the kind of crap that only happens with people that don’t understand what it’s like to actually PLAY the game. you don’t sit there and logically weigh your options when you’re on the field. things happen in an instant and when emotions are running high, you act, sometimes without thinking. Jorge saw carlson, who had just thrown behind him and then barked at him, standing out of position and right in his path, he gave him a little nudge to let him know he’s coming. a bush league move would have been if jorge did just bowl him over right there, but he didn’t. He kept moving and carlson continued the altercation. i just don’t get why you’re so intent on making jorge the bad guy here – it’s not something a yankee fan should do.

  77. Stevie September 16th, 2009 at 3:03 am

    as fights go, this pales in comparrison to the the Strawberry- Benitez fight in 1998.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05.....wanted=all

    In some ways, I miss Big Stein.

  78. D-man September 16th, 2009 at 3:03 am

    m:

    I think if Youk feels like he was a “victim (thrown at)” he would say stuff to us. His usual is “Horsesh**!!” Honestly, would he think twice, probably. Does that mean he surely would not be the aggressor in a Yank-Sox brawl? No, he would be the prime candidate to instigate a brawl.

    The one thing you didn’t mention in your last few comments is that Carlson was not where he belongs. Posada crossed the plate and ran straight to the dugout. He took no circuitous route. His elbow was extended but he didn’t “take a shot” at Carlson per-say.

  79. Peter Abraham September 16th, 2009 at 3:03 am

    Jeremy:

    Name an example of your claim. Mussina and Pettitte don’t throw at guys, that was their choice. Torre can’t make them do that. Rivera doesn’t throw at guys, either. Clemens did. Who did he play for? Oh, right, Torre.

    Boston pitchers attacked Yankees hitters? Oh really? Hitting somebody with a pitch is not “attacking” them. It’s baseball. So are the Yankees “attacking” Boston because they have hit them twice as often this season?

    This is not wrestling. You look silly.

  80. Pat M. September 16th, 2009 at 3:06 am

    Pete, your facing into the wind in regards to Jeremy…..

  81. m September 16th, 2009 at 3:07 am

    o’realy,

    I know it’s a little boy’s game played by big boys. I don’t need a lecture.

    It’s totally embarrassing what happened. Jorge lost his composure in a totally meaningless game.

    If Jorge could go back in time, do you think he’d do it again? Doesn’t sound like it from what he said. He let his emotions get the better of him. Doesn’t make him a bad guy. Just makes him wrong.

    There are battles worth fighting, and this just wasn’t one of them. In the playoffs? Against an opponent that’s worthy? maybe I give you that. But this was just manini. Small time.

    And I’m not equating anything with Youkilis. But if Youkilis did what Jorge did, and he did it to one of our relievers? You guys would be all over him.

  82. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 3:09 am

    o’Realy
    I don’t know why they are making Jorge the bad guy. Just like I don’t know why some posters and Pete are mad because I called Torre passive in terms of standing up and fighting back when Yankee players are attacked by the opposition. I swear that some fans on here don’t allow others to voice their thoughts, and they believe that the Yankees should be little miss. perfect. This fight will not change the fact that the Yankees will sin the division and play in October.

  83. m September 16th, 2009 at 3:09 am

    D-man,

    I mentioned in the last thread that Carlson totally had his back to the “play” which would’ve been a throw to home from right field.

    But I do believe that Youkilis won’t escalate against the Yankees. Of course, part of that comes from the fact that he was contrite after charging the mound against Porcello.

  84. D-man September 16th, 2009 at 3:10 am

    PeteAbe:

    I understand you’re stance on Torre.

    However, when people call him passive they are not referring to his mental and physical strength, they aren’t talking about his ability to overcome. They’re merely talking about an era in which our Yanks got thrown at game after game and rarely saw “revenge.”

    Stating that a manager can’t make his players throw at people is just false. They can. They can make they’re wants well known in the clubhouse. If we get hit, you hit them.

  85. Charlie September 16th, 2009 at 3:12 am

    Good teams with a possible World Series at stake never get in brawls:

    http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05.....-game.html

  86. o'Realy September 16th, 2009 at 3:13 am

    m -

    i’m not lecturing, i just find it strange that you seem to be placing all the blame on jorge. would he do it again if he went back in time? maybe not, but in the heat of the moment, you don’t think like that.

    fights are a part of the game, and no matter how meaningless the game, they do make a statement. like i said before, if we just let things slide, who knows if carlson wanted to even the score completely and throw at another one of our guys before the game was over, or maybe even tomorrow (i do think this brawl really resolved this entire situation) – would you be singing the same tune if Jeter, Arod or Tex got drilled and cracked a rib tomorrow? No, we’d be screaming “why don’t the yankees ever stand up for themselves”

  87. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 3:14 am

    Peter Abraham
    Pat M.

    Yeah hitting a guy is part of the game but when your pitcher (Andy, Mussina) does not hit any of your batters what gives the other team the right to strike a player.
    Yeah when Pedro in 2003 hit Jeter and Soriano on the hands on purpose and they had to go to the hospital that was part of the game right ?

  88. Peter Abraham September 16th, 2009 at 3:17 am

    D-man:

    Name me the manager who had Moose, Andy or Mo throw at somebody. They’ve never done it. Neither did Glavine or Maddux. Some guys are afraid they’ll injure somebody and they won’t do it. That’s their choice and some teammates resented them for it. But they stand by it. These are adult men, not h.s. kids. The manager can’t make them do anything they chose not to.

    This “Yankees got thrown at” stuff is largely fable anyway. Jeter, Posada and Giambi literally stand on the inside line of the batters box, Jeter especially. They get hit a lot because of their approaches. You don’t get revenge because Jeter decides he wants to inside-out the ball and Giambi wants a fastball away he can handle.

  89. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 3:18 am

    Pete
    Hitting batters and sending them to the hospital is not apart of the game. What Pedro and other pitchers did to the Yankees during those years was not a part of the game an un-sportsman like as you say. I’m not the one looking silly. You just don’t like what I had to say.

  90. Peter Abraham September 16th, 2009 at 3:20 am

    O’realy:

    I’m curious, what “statement” did the Yankees make tonight? That they’ll stand up to fringe relievers who throw waist-high off-speed pitches behind somebody in retaliation for their guy getting drilled in the back with a 93-mph fastball? That’s quite a statement.

    Melancon had hit two Jays in the last two weeks, so when he drilled Hill they retaliated and they did it in a professional way. That Posada snapped was silly. The umpire said it, Girardi said it, several teammates thought so, etc. So they’re all wrong?

  91. Stevie September 16th, 2009 at 3:20 am

    Torre wasn’t passive at all. He wrote a book insulting ARod as “AFraud”.

  92. RockinDaBronx September 16th, 2009 at 3:23 am

    I like fight

  93. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 3:23 am

    D-man

    Exactly ! I never talked about Torre and his mental and physical strength, but his inability to defend his players. Pete and Pat M. don’t like what I said because it’s the truth. Torre was a great manager and he is a good man but that was a weak area in his game. And Pete is trying to twist my words into a personal attack. The point is that the Yankees wouldn’t fight back and now they do.

  94. D-man September 16th, 2009 at 3:23 am

    Pete I understand that, but if Joe Torre walks up to you and says “you need to take care of that,” what will you do? This isn’t a slight at Joe T, I love him as a manager and as a person. I’m just saying, if he wanted Moose or AP to hit someone, he probably could’ve convinced them to. As for Mo, hitting someone in a save situation makes little sense so I would never expect him to go out of his way to put a man on base.
    Now if you’re arguing that the only reason the Yanks got hit is because Jetes leans over the plate(which he does) or because Jay G had his elbow in the zone, I disagree to an extent. Did that factor into a lot of the HBP’s? Yes. Is that the only instance in which Yanks got plunked? No.

  95. W September 16th, 2009 at 3:24 am

    I think Brett Gardner is to blame. He should have struck out or hit a single, then Posada wouldn’t have scored and none of this would have happened.

  96. D-man September 16th, 2009 at 3:25 am

    **Especially a young AP, let’s not act like Andy was brought into the league as a stoic vet.

  97. Peter Abraham September 16th, 2009 at 3:26 am

    Ok, Jeremy, name all the times Yankees went to the hospital after being hit by pitches from 2002-07.

    I’ll help, it was once with Pedro.

    Once in 972 games. You’re complaining about something that did not exist. Jeter, Posada and Giambi got hit a lot on the hands and arms because of their stances at the plate.

  98. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 3:27 am

    Pete
    What about Carlson ? Posada deserves some blame but he was at fault as well. I just love how everyone wants to blame Posada for getting hot, but not Carlson.

  99. Stevie September 16th, 2009 at 3:28 am

    When Shelly gets done with baseball, he should try his hand at mixed martial arts or ultimate fighting.

  100. Charlie September 16th, 2009 at 3:29 am

    “You’re complaining about something that did not exist. Jeter, Posada and Giambi got hit a lot on the hands and arms because of their stances at the plate.”

    It was an issue that was discussed consistently for several years.

  101. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 3:32 am

    Pete
    You are right about them getting hit because of their stances. But the truth is that under Torre the Yankees would not retaliate and the opposition took advantage of that.

  102. Peter Abraham September 16th, 2009 at 3:33 am

    D-man:

    My point is that if you take away all the times Jeter, Posada and Giambi were hit because they dove into pitches, the Yankees were not really hit more than any other team. As for the pitchers, that stuff is usually between teammates, not managers. Players usually settle scores. Only the real hothead managers would tell a pitcher to hit somebody.

  103. m September 16th, 2009 at 3:35 am

    Hanging on plate? Yes.

    Diving into pitches? No.

  104. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 3:35 am

    That’s all I was saying. So there was no need for you and Pat M. to attack me .

  105. o'Realy September 16th, 2009 at 3:36 am

    Pete,

    The statement is that we’re not going to just let people throw at us. I understand that it was well behind Jorge and I agree, that’s the right thing to do. However, if you watch what happens afterwards, Carlson walks toward Jorge with his arms up like “bring it on.” I have no problem with Jorge taking exception to that move. The kid was obviously fired up a bit and wanted a reaction out of the Yankees, which he got, but without a reaction out of Jorge, who’s to say that the Blue Jays wouldn’t feel free to continue this little back and forth and hit another one of our guys. At some point you have to stand up, and sure, it was a meaningless game against a bad team, but that would make it even more upsetting if someone gets injured on an HBP because Toronto was trying to even the score.

    I’m simply saying that no matter what, showing toughness can be a good thing. In any sport this generally holds true. You risk injury by acting but when you act, most of the time, that’s the end of it. Not to mention the level of togetherness a group tends to feel after something like this happens. We’ve all seen it before, these types of things can spark a team, and what better time for a spark than during a playoff run.

  106. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 3:39 am

    Pete
    I am sorry if my comment seemed over the top. I didn’t mean to offend Torre, but just mention how he wouldn’t retaliate.

  107. Peter Abraham September 16th, 2009 at 3:40 am

    o’realy:

    You can’t honestly believe somebody like carlson is going to inspire the blue jays to go after the yankees. he’s a nobody.

    as for the Yankees, the vast majority of the players were embarrassed after the game. A brawl with a 4th place team in a game you’re losing by seven runs is unprofessional. It’s not going to fire the yankees up or spark them. they’re 40 games over .500 because they’re a heck of a good team, not a bunch of scrappers.

  108. Stevie September 16th, 2009 at 3:42 am

    Detroit and Washburn were CRUSHED @ home by Kansas City, 11-1.

  109. repete September 16th, 2009 at 3:49 am

    I would like to point out the advert for McD on the main blog page. It stars Jorge and is right across from the entries about the brawl. To me, his poses are kind of funny, considering the brawl entries!

  110. Stevie September 16th, 2009 at 3:50 am

    LOL

    As a baseball junky, I tivoed Baseball Tonight, and in the first edition, Kruk called out Karl Ravech and Gammons for being Boston fans, and he was serious.

    See, the rank and file Yankee fans weren’t seeing things.

  111. o'Realy September 16th, 2009 at 3:53 am

    Pete,

    None of us were in the clubhouse so we don’t know how the incident was viewed by the team, but I find it surprising that they would be open with the media in feeling embarrassed about it, but I guess you would know better than me.

    I’m simply saying that sometimes these things are positive. I look at tonight as an example of the Yankees putting a stop to something before it boils over into the rest of this series. And fighting in sport is rarely viewed as professional behavior regardless of the context, so I don’t see how it’s any different from game to game.

  112. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 3:58 am

    Detroit is having pitching issues. Washburn is injured, Robertson is down, Jackson is reverting back to his old self, and Porcello is a rookie. Verlander seems to be the only reliable pitcher in there rotation now. That does not bode well for them.

  113. o'Realy September 16th, 2009 at 3:58 am

    And I know this isn’t a team of scrappers and tough guys, they are a heck of a good team and this fight will probably be a little blip on a season of much greater stories, but I’m just saying that I don’t really fault Jorge for reacting the way most human beings would. Fighting is a part of sports and a part of life – it’s like when you try to make the players seem more human in a lot of your posts – sometimes players lose their tempers too.

  114. Stevie September 16th, 2009 at 4:04 am

    Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 3:58 am

    Detroit is having pitching issues. Washburn is injured, Robertson is down, Jackson is reverting back to his old self, and Porcello is a rookie. Verlander seems to be the only reliable pitcher in there rotation now. That does not bode well for them.
    =====================================================

    And Verlander had a dicey start Monday nite @ home against Toronto.

  115. MD September 16th, 2009 at 4:05 am

    Umm…I guess I’m just a bad person because I’ve rewatched the video 3 times now. I can’t stop laughing at Edwar. He was hilariously amazing. Dragging Barajas! Then holding him back!

    And Pettitte was getting dirty too. I guess his arm can’t be that bad. He and CC shut it down by dragging Posada away.

  116. Jeremy September 16th, 2009 at 4:12 am

    Stevie
    Yeah I saw that game where he gave up 5 runs. They would have lost that game if it wasn’t for the bad Toronto bullpen. The Tigers will be tough if they make it in the ALDS, but they are not the same as the 2006 team. This Yankee team can beat the Tigers especially if they win Game 1.

  117. Yeah September 16th, 2009 at 5:56 am

    Posada has been my favorite Yankee for over a decade. But he went full retard tonight. Absolutely no excuse for the elbow. None.

    On the bright side, he’s caught like 90 games already. A five-game suspension might help the Sox gain a few in the standings, but he’ll get some rest. Plus, everybody loves Cervo.

  118. jv September 16th, 2009 at 7:28 am

    Ha! So true, Yeah, you never go full retard.

    No hi hip Jorge for this one. Oh well, we all make dumb mistakes. Hopefully last night is the end…following an apology to Carlson.

  119. Yankee U September 16th, 2009 at 7:47 am

    Posada was wrong. He should have just let it go after the first bench clearing. But he did not throw a forearm into the pitcher. He slightly extended his arm and made contact with the pitchers glove. Sort of like throwing behind the batter. As one of the leaders of the team he has to look at the bigger picture, the suspension will probably not hurt the team in the long run but the chance of injury to his shoulder or to one of his teammates is not worth the benefit of protecting his manhood.

    Carlson was wrong. He moved into position to be between Posada and the dugout. There was no “baseball” reason to be where he was positioned. Either he has no knowledge of how to play the game of baseball or he was there to pass another message. Is 89 mph considered offspeed?

  120. Yankee U September 16th, 2009 at 7:50 am

    “I can’t stop laughing at Edwar. He was hilariously amazing. Dragging Barajas! Then holding him back!” I noticed that too. That may be the most embarrassing part of the entire night. The macho catcher who wants a piece of everybody being held back by the 98 lb pitcher.

  121. Tomko's Ghost September 16th, 2009 at 9:07 am

    Dice K kept the Angels from crossing home plate last night. Are the Red Sux straightening out their pitching?

  122. Christina25 September 16th, 2009 at 9:29 am

    I find it amazing that nobody is talking about Ruiz getting hit on the cheek couple weeks ago. Not only the Jays didnt hit back but the Yankees continued hitting. How absurd is that?

  123. Name September 16th, 2009 at 9:58 am

    Posada? Classy. Lets get this clear, I hate Yankees, I hate Redsox (more so than the Yanks), but, after doing so much in his career, he should be above that. And what’s up with the bean balls last night? The pitcher was servin’ ‘em up, what did he expect to happen? Anyway, Jays… one of the days.

  124. Jays Fan September 16th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    Six Jays batters have been hit by Yankee pitchers in September. Two last night. This is the first retaliation and some of you actually call this the Yankees protecting themselves? The Yankees pitching staff leads all of MLB in hit batsmen, while the team is a sitant 14th in getting hit. If anybody needs protection it’s the Yankees opponents.

    I give Carlson full marks for finally standing up for himself and his team. Despite ABRAHAM calling him “two-bit” for soome reason, Carlson was lights out for the Jays bullpen last season which was the best in the league. His career stats include a 3.37 ERA and over 100 strikeouts in only 123 innings pitched. Great find by JP, and Arnsberg had made a man out of him like he did for AJ Burnett.

    Judging by the Yankees pitching last night, you could use Jesse. I’m sure your team will overpay for him and take him away from us at some point.

  125. Jays Fan September 16th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    I find it amazing that nobody is talking about Ruiz getting hit on the cheek couple weeks ago. Not only the Jays didnt hit back but the Yankees continued hitting. How absurd is that?

    Well said. Maybe the Yankees can pay other team to not retaliate? It wouldn’t be that different from spending 8X what some teams do to win games would it?

  126. Jays Fan September 16th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    Also, a post I wrote seems to have been lost. I’ll repeat: Don’t the Yankees lead the majors in hitting opposition batters while rank far down the list at 14th in being hit?

    Does this make Posada’s and some Yankee’s fans reactions seem just a little ironic?

  127. saucY September 16th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    agreed pete. emotions got carried away

  128. Woland September 16th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    Carlson was standing there looking for it. Posada gave him what he was looking for. So what. Won’t change the outcome of the playoffs. I’m tired of the old guard, the torre days are over. Getting hit 3 times to 1 by the red sox and everyone else for years on end, goodbye. We need to be hungrier, feistier, more fearless and play with some fight! These aren’t fragile men, enough with that knee jerk crap. It’s fine.

  129. Yankfan1 September 16th, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    What’s done is done. Jorge let his emotions get out of control and is to blame for starting a senseless brawl. What Pete is saying is true. All you blind and stubborn fans denying this should take a step back and play the scenario out if it was the other way around. 8 Yanks hit by pitch (1 in the frigging mouth high and in) and the only retalition was a pitch thrown behind Jorge (real retaliation is a fastball up and in). Guess Melancon has no control as this is the 3rd hbp in his last 2 games with the Jays (hmmm…not too suspicious). There was no need to cause an incident where your teammates could get injured or suspended. 8 Jays hit in last 4 games makes you anticipate some sort of retaliation. Jorge should have just laughed it off (pitch behind the back) and be glad he wasn’t HIT. The Jay pitcher Carlson had every right (and should have if he really wanted to get even) to retaliate and took the high road by throwing behind Jorge (on purpose) and not drilling him. I believe the pitch was to warn that any further Jays hpb will be retaliated with a hit batter and not a miss. Thus, Jorge got off lightly. All you other Yank Fans that are so blinded by your love for the team should take off your blinders. Our team leads the league in hit batters…guess our pitchers really must suck to not be able to control our pitches. So shut the eff up already and move onto the next game. We’re just lucky that more teams don’t drill our players back for the number of times our pitchers lose control of their pitches. Now pay less attention to such foolishness and focus on winning and playing good ball far into the post season.

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