Two decisions to debate
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Sep 19, 2009 
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Based on the comments, some readers were upset with Joe Girardi last night on two fronts:
• They wanted Girardi to pinch hit for Jose Molina in the seventh inning with two one, one out and the Yankees leading 2-1. He did not and Molina rolled into an easy 6-4-3 double play.
Thanks a bunch for getting suspended, Jorge Posada. If the Yankees had three catchers, Girardi could have pinch hit. But in a 2-1 game, he probably wanted to save Francisco Cervelli in case the game went into extra inning or in case Molina got hurt.
• Then some people wanted Girardi to intentionally walk Ichiro Suzuki with first base open and a runner on second in the bottom of the ninth inning.
That would have made zero sense to me. Ichiro was 2 for 10 against Mariano Rivera in his career. You also do not put the winning run on base in the form of one of the fastest men in baseball. A double down the line would have won the game for Seattle.
If you are Joe Girardi, you have done your job once you hand a one-run lead in the ninth inning to the greatest closer in history. What happens after that is all on Mariano.
Pete, That makes too much sense for many here……
Giardi didn’t have a problem going to cervelli the other day….
Well explained.
Repost from last thread (but somehow presciently on-topic for this one):
Vader,
I too was in shock when Suzuki hit that bomb. That game was already in the win column in my head. After all, Mo is “automatic,” right? I don’t like the loss either.
However, I don’t think you can fault Joe for the match up. I’ll take my chances with Mo against anybody. Putting Ichiro on base (especially with something to prove after being picked off twice last night) was a bad idea. Having Mo pitching to Lopez, ticked off that Joe didn’t trust him to get Suzuki, could have been a worse idea.
This morning, I can be more philosophical about it and just enjoy it as another great baseball moment. It wasn’t a critical game for the Yanks. We’ll just go get ‘em with CC on the mound tonight.
Pete, you’re welcome for that Stat. I hope you back checked it :p
I would have pinch hit for Molina too but that’s about all I would have done. They still have Hairston to catch, just in case. As far as the 9th, Mo thought Sweeney’s ball was gone and was happy to be able to face Ichiro with the game still tied. There is NO way I walk him. Ichiro can hit more HRs if he wants to but he prefers to get base hits. In THAT situation, Ichiro was looking for a pitch to drive and he did exactly that. It happens and life goes on. When the Yankees beat Joe Nathan ealier this year, he felt the same way, life happens…move on.
Are you sure there isn’t a reality show you can pitch?? I mean, there IS a market for that…As your boy Bruce says, there’s 57 channels (multiply by 100) and nothing on…
That said, I’m thinking:
‘It’s Gonna Be OK: An hour with Dr Pete”
A Bravo TV Series, revolving around an award winning beat writer who talks rabid sports fans down off the ledge with calm, common sense
AND PS: DOES ANYONE FROM THE NY TIMES/POST/NEWS REALIZE WHO YOUR LOSING TO THE BOSTON GLOBE??! Tyler K. Call in a favor!!
The only thing I would have done differently is put Hairston in RF for Swisher. If Swisher was able to get that close to catching the double, I would have to believe that while it would have been a very difficult catch Hairston would have at least gotten there.
Jerry Hairston JR, before the call up of Cervelli, was listed as the third catcher. he did it some in high school. He could have easily been there for insurance or emergency reasons.
Dont blame it on Posada, blame it on Girardi
I agree. I was shocked last night, in absolute disbelief. I shut off the lights and went to sleep. This morning I thought to myself… “did that really happen?” it seemed like a bad dream.
But it did happen. I agree with everything said. People are looking for any reason to make sense of this. I don’t think it could have been done differently. Last 36 times, this was not an issue for Mo, he would power through the save like he did through the first two batters. But the man is human, and while it’s all on Mo, I’m not mad. Just shocked. Let’s consider ourselves lucky that we are shocked because Mo has been so automatic for so long. Consider this: we have a closer that when he blows a save it shocks us, rather than make us mad. That says a lot right there.
It is cast in “old school” concrete to never put the winning run on base and Girardi is “old school” as are most managers who are well steeped in BB tradition….End of story. “Old School” wins out in the long run….in baseball as in virtually anything.
Today is Talk Like a Pirate Day.
“Avast ye hearties, which one of us will be playing for the Yankees or Red Sox next year. Arrr.”
September 19th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Nick/PAT M…
Looking for your 5 star college pick of the day.
My pick is the over Michigan/Eastern Michigan 54.5
-dennis
Pat M.
My afternoon play is ND/MSU OVER 54. (my afternoon favorite play) I am putting the proceeds of the MI/EM lock. Any 3:30est games you like?
Nick. I am rooting for the 7 pt cover here in the 2nd half!!
-dennis
Yeah, I think we can all agree that Girardi is not the sharpest tool in the shed but I have no complaints about either of those decisions.
Re: Mo not walking Ichiro. I remember earlier Joe G. had Mo walk someone. Quite a lively debate. I think Mo said then that he does not intentionly walk people, not his job. I agree, let Mo pitch. I will take that chance every time.
I think that the decision whether to pinch hit for Molina was more 50-50 than the decision to pitch to Suzuki, which I see as having been pretty clear cut.
Panda has gotten some pretty big RBIs and rally sustaining hits for us lately. I think that it was good that Joe acknowledged that by letting Jose come to the plate. A manager always wants to build confidence in his bench players. After all, how many game changing hits have “terrible hitters” like Jim Leyritz, Luis Sojo and Miguel Cairo gotten for us in important situations over the years, including the playoffs? In a non-essential game, with a one-run lead, it’s reasonable to take a chance that Jose, a good situational hitter, could at least bring in a run with a sacrifice fly.
On the other hand, in a pitcher’s duel with Hernandes on the mound, you really want to capitalize upon every chance to score that you can. It’s worth the risk of possible injury to your last catcher (Cervelli) to pinch hit for Molina there. I would have gone with Gardner, who is next to impossible to double up.
Either choice is defensible. I would have gone with pinch hitting Gardner. I’m greedy. I want to win every day.
http://www.dailysportspages.co.....y.php?f=36
Good site for news for when Pete Abe defects to the dark side
He actually had walked Ichiro once before, intentionally. But Mo had the better percentage, so we indeed should have stuck with our big guns, as we did.
“I think we can all agree that Girardi is not the sharpest tool in the shed…”
Yeah he’s clueless. If Girardi was as sharp as you think he should be, they’d be 148-0 right now, right? lol
Shame Girardi shame!
Both of my non-teaser Cal picks are looking like a push at best, unless the back door is open — the Larry Craig cover, perhaps? Sorry, beating a dead horse.
My bother just sent me an emergency text touting Iowa -4.5 over Arizona. My nephew’s college fund might be in play.
I’m going to take that SU and also tease it a bit with Nevada (which has moved to -4, it was -3.5 before) and UNLV.
Disagree.
you don’t let their best hitter beat you, period.
If Guithirez hits a double down the line, tip your cap.
Hi everyone-
I have been foloowing the comments posted on and off all day. I didn’t really have anything to add to the conversation so I didn’t weigh in sooner.
Just a few thoughts:
1) Lets not forget the huge positive from last night’s game. Burnett pitched a beauty. He gave us 7 innings of 1 run ball and managed to only walk 3. As we inch closer to the playoffs that is really encouraging
2) Mariano Rivera is so good so much of the time that when he does have an “off” moment it stings almost doubly as hard because its so unexpected as rare. But I would rather have that any day than a closer like Brad Lidge on Philly where a blown save is the norm.
3) If I am going to get beaten my an opponent. I do want it to be the best hitter on the team. At least when the guy with talent beats you, its better than a freak hit from the #9 back up catcher. At least in my opinion.
Okay, I think thats it for now. I have exactly an hour and a half before I need to start getting ready to leave home again. Strongly considering an afternoon nap…..
Anyone who suggested walking Ichiro in the bottom of the 9th with Mariano on the mound is just second guessing for the sake of second guessing. I don’t believe anyone is that foolish.
It’s not like we’re talking Albert Pujols here
Sorry, Girardi’s got more credibility than anybody who calls him an idiot. He was manager of the year in his first year of managing and has done an incredible jog of guiding the team this year. I disagree with some of his decisions but he is most certainly not an idiot.
I can only imagine the outrage if Girardi made MO intentionally walk Ichiro and Guitirez hit a double down the line
“Joe lost this game with his overmanaging”
“Ichiro was 2-10 off MO, dumb dumb decision”
“MO is a HOF closer, HE should decide how to pitch to whom, not Girardi”
“Girardi overmanaging yet again, he is showing NO faith in his closer”
“Why did he have MO walk a singles hitter to face a power threat?”
*job*
Nick.
Ok. I took Iowa for a small play. You in on the ND/MSU over? I got -4 Iowa which scares me tad as the line is moving the over way.
Low sress cover on the MI/EM game.
Congrats on the Cal win and the 2nd half cover.
-dennis
Cando,
Boy, you’ve got tha right (LOL).
I got a piece of that ND over, yes. Cal win was very nice, Minny is pesky, but the 2H was just a push. Tedford never runs it up… classy, but it hurts us a bit when we’re competing with the Mack Browns of the world for votes.
nope, you still walk one of the most prolific batters in the history of baseball. putting the winning run on is irrelevant when 2 things are true.
1) you are mariano rivera.
2) the guy on deck is franklin gutierrez.
my problem last night was not pinch hitting for Molina, instead why not send Melky? Why not play hit and run? Doesn’t he know Molina can’t hit or for that matter run? There’s a lot better chance of melky making it to second than Molina getting a hit which would have been the only way to avoid. To Molina get a hit, it’s about %20 chance, for melky to steal second it’s at least %65 if u go by the steal and caught percentages
I have to disagree with you Pete when it comes to Girardi doing his job here…using your players to pinch hit so you can pad your lead for someone who is HUMAN is also a managerial function. I definitely don’t buy the “Save-Cervelli-in-case-Molina-get’s-injured” argument, because it’s extremely rare to lose your starting catcher. I mean how often does that really happen?
And if it does, so what? You lose 1 game…Rivera was due for a hiccup, and this way would have given himm room to err.
As for the ninth, you have to walk Ichiro…he was the only one hitting yesterday and he specializes in getting singles…that’s all the Mariners needed because the runner on second goes on anything.
Ichiro is the best. Period
I don’t really have a problem with batting Molina because there is going to be a point in the post season he’s going to come up in a big spot and he needs the practice, I also don’t have a problem with Mo pitching to Ichiro because Sept is not a time to get squeamish and mess with Mo’s confidence (if that’s even possible). My issue is with Girardi not replacing Swisher with Hairston or Guzman. It’s just a lazy move and makes me nostalgic for the days when Torre had Jose Cardenal on his staff who was not only in Joe’s ear about making defensive replacements but was constantly on the top step moving outfielders to the perfect spot. This is one of the problems with not having one former outfielder on the coaching staff.
I would say yes to pinch hitting for Molina and no to walking Ichiro. However I do understand why Molina stayed in the game; it is risky to take him out and with hughes and mo coming in that risk might not be worth it.
Wanting to walk ichiro is dumb though. Mo usually gets him and it’s never a good idea to intentionally put the winning run on base
both of those are nonsense….Joe G’s problem was lack of defensive positioning of his OF’s, specifically his RF’r Swisher…no reason he shouldnt have been playing no doubles D and shouldnt have caught that ball.
Mo screwed up.
Ichiro was 2-12 against Mariano Rivera. MARIANO RIVERA. Not any other reliever in baseball. There was no reason to indicate an intentional walk was necessary. Mariano Rivera almost always gets that 3rd out
Here’s a challenge for those who choose to accept it-
Please find any other Yankee game since 1997 where Mariano intentiallu walked a batter
On that note, I have decided to go for that nap. Catch you all in a while
Nick
You are correct -7 on the 2nd half. Push is a win! (on some days)
Go Iowa. Go ND/MSU over…
I have a big play on ND/MSU as I poured the proceeds from the MI over cover so I need some umph behind it.
-dennis
I hope Pat M took it as well.
-dennis
While I would have liked to see Molina get pinch hit for, in absence of that, I would have liked to see them try the squeeze to get the run home since he has decent bat control. What’s the worst that could have happened? Pop out/strikeout, the runners are still where they are with two out and Jeter batting; man gets thrown out at home, you still have a runner advancing to second. Letting him hit seemed like a sure GIDP-in-waiting and sure enough it happened on the first pitch.
I thought it remarkable that AJ picked off Suzuki twice last night, even though the second call was borderline. AJ doesn’t have that great of a pickoff move. It looked like both times they got him on pitches when he was already committed to stealing second base.
This makes me wonder whether the Yanks have picked up some kind of “tell,” something Suzuki does every time when he is about to steal. This would enable them to put on the pickoff at just the right moment. One successful pickoff on a great base runner is one thing. Two in one night makes me suspect that the Yanks are onto something. Let’s see what CC, a lefty, is able to do against him when he’s on base tonight.
Sorry – bad managing on both counts. I’m less irate about Molina because it is clear from the moment the Yanks got the lead they were playing to win 2-1. As much as I dislike the lack of killer instinct it didn’t remove runs from their lead.
Ichiro is the most disruptive and unpredictable player in the game – he had to be walked there. You slap a hit between first and second and then you are facing extra innings on the road. Proof of Ichiro’s unpredictibility is that he hit a home run off of Mariano Rivera. Walk Ichiro and face a conventional batter.
Pete when you say you’ve done your job as a Manager to get to the 9th with a lead and hand the ball to the greatest closer in history you discount what Mariano always says when he blows a lead – he is not a robot or a computer. Girardi needed to manage all 27 out there.
I cant believe this has went this far.
Mo has allowed 2 blown saves, and 3 runs since the all star break…
Rather it now or in October?
http://www.dailysportspages.co.....y.php?f=36
Perhaps I should have disclosed that my brother’s early-game lock was :gulp: Clemson.
Ed H.
I watched both pickoffs over and over and Ichiro was doing what every baserunner has done since the game has begun – keying on a right handed pitcher’s front foot. As soon as AJ lifted his front foot Ichiro was off but both times AJ would lift his front foot then jump off the mound with his right foot. In short, AJ balked 2x.
erica – he intentionally walked evan longoria this year.
ghost, thats not a balk, it’s only a balk if you approach the plate.
Thank you, Rob…my point exactly. And to The Ghost…how much practice is one more at bat going to give Molina. Do you really think he is likely to be more productive in a future similar situation because Girardi keeps him in one extra at bat?
Tom B, do you think the backlash from IBB Longoria earlier in the year from the fans – and Mariano himself – forced Girardi to sit on his hands last night when he knew the right move was to not throw a hittable pitch to future HOFer Ichiro and take his chances with the lesser thans coming up after him?
a bigger question…why no defensive replacement for Swisher in a one run game?
The problem was not the non-moves as much as it was the pitch location. Ichiro knew what was coming and had “cheated” on it before hitting it out. It may be that he would have waited for the inside cutter at the whole at bat.
Sometimes you just get beat.
The bigger problem was not putting the hits together enough to pad the lead. They also helped keep Felix in the game by jumping on him early. I think they had the right idea, but maybe should have adjusted when it was getting later in the game.
I am disappointed for AJ. He gave up less runs than Mo in that game. It was a tough loss for him.
Hopefully the Yankees can beat the Fister big time.
There’s a reason why Mo is Mo and why he’s the best closer this game has ever seen.
Mo doesn’t walk anybody and he certainly doesn’t intentionally walk anybody. Intentional walks are for mere mortals like every other closer.
A big part of the reason why Mo has been the best is because he does not allow extra base runners to reach base. Extra base runners via the free pass lead to more runs scored against him and more blown saves.
It’s really tough to get multiple hits against him in a single inning. Last night happened to be one of those strange things.
That’s why Mo doesn’t issue intentional walks. The margin for error is much greater when you don’t allow extra base runners to reach.
ghost – to be fair, that was not a hittable pitch. not to anyone but ichiro anyway. that pitch would have hit most lefties in the hip. even so, i don’t think Mo should ever pitch to a guy who’s bat follows the cutter right out of the strikezone on his way to 1B. the reason they pitch to ichiro in that spot is because he’s not supposed to hit a HR even if he does hit it.
just a fluke situation, can’t read too much into it. i would have walked ichiro, pitched to gutierrez and put the OF’s on the wall, but that’s me.
guiseppe i’m sorry but thats a little narrow-minded. sure, Mo is the greatest of all time, but that does not mean that you ignore making an intelligent baseball move because you think he’s awesome.
People who want to intentionaly walk Ichiro are nuts. No one expects Ichiro to hit a homerun off Mo there. The guy is one of the fastest runners in baseball. Its one thing if he was a slow footed power hitter. You put him as the winning run on base you are asking for trouble. Safeco has a big outfield anything in the gap he would of scored easily.
Bottom line is Mo was facing the bottom of the mariners lineup and couldn’t get the job done. Its happens he is human you just move on and hopefully win tonight.
Tom B September 19th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
guiseppe i’m sorry but thats a little narrow-minded. sure, Mo is the greatest of all time, but that does not mean that you ignore making an intelligent baseball move because you think he’s awesome.
————
Mo is the greatest closer of all time for a reason.
I think he’s earned the right do whatever he feels most comfortable doing.
It’s nothing different than Mo has done his entire career.
Mo blew the game, simple as that. However, he has been great all year….hasen’t blown a save since April. The streak was not going to last all year, so better now than OCTOBER.
Also this team needs to get on a roll b/c Boston has caught fire. After these two games in Seattle, they go to Anaheim for 3 before returning home for 3 against Boston. This is not over yet.
Saying they only have 2 available catchers and he was afraid to pinch hit for one doesn’t hold much weight – Joe has done it many times this season. If the game was tied he would have pinch hit for Molina – we had a lead and our 2 best in the bullpen coming in to finish the game off. He didn’t pinch hit because they needed defense. Not because of fear of injury, he still had another sitting on the bench.
I agree with Pete. That wasn’t Girardi’s fault at all.
Ichiro was looking inside that is why he hit that pitch. Mo got into a pattern with the two lefties he faced before Ichiro. He kept throwing inside to Carp and Hannahan in the beginning of the at bat and then would throw outside for the strikeout. Ichiro is a smart hitter I’m sure he saw that.
Tom B, If it’s legal it’s really a fantastic. AJ actually bends his front knee before his back foot moves off the rubber, it can’t be scene with the naked eye but in slow-mo it’s quite apparent. It’s possible that someone in the Yankee video room noticed that Ichiro keys on the front knee but I can’t imagine how Burnett could have made such an adjustment so fluid so quickly.
really a fantastic should read “really a fantastic move”
Nice read:
“For Rivera, No Ups or Downs, Only Precise Cutters”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09.....f=baseball
This is not about the prestige of Mo – this is about winning the ballgame. Anyone remember the time the mets were leading the giants by 3 or 4 runs in the 9th and Bobby Valentine had Barry Bonds intentionally walked with 2 outs and the bases loaded? The Met’s closer got the next out and they won the game. Sometimes you have to use your head and consider the circumstances and in this case the circumstance is the absolute unpredictibility of Ichiro. So when people say – who could have predicted he would hit a home run? I say he’s unpredictible! Expect anything and put yourself in a position you can control better.
It would be grossly unfair to say the loss was Girardi’s ‘fault’. Both turning points being discussed here are fairly debatable. A different decision in either case would have been defensible, but so were the decisions he made.
The Yankees were underdogs in the game, by the way. A win would have been an upset. And it took a rarer-than-a-blue-moon occurence for us to lose. No shame there.
It’s a pretty easy decision actually. Who would you rather face, a guy with a 127 OPS+ or a guy with a 99 OPS+ (that’s below league average for those not familiar with the stat).
And for those of you saying the HR was unexpected, that’s true. What’s also true is that a single would’ve tied the game and Ichiro is arguably the best contact hitter in the last decade. It was a bad decision by Girardi to pitch to him. Let’s hope he learns from his mistakes and doesn’t kill the Yankees come playoff time.
As long as Burnett’s foot/leg did not break the 45 degree plane between 1st and home, it’s not a balk. That;s in reference to the foot movement. There are about 6-7 other ways of balking, but, last night wasn’t one of them.
The game was lost as much on Gutierrez’ defensive plays in center field as much as on Suzuki’s home run.
Sorry, not pitching to Ichiro made made no absolutley no sense to me. Not only is he hitting 80 points less than Ichiro on the season,Franklin Guitierrez is 1 for 6 with a .167 obp against Mo with 3 strikeouts. Do you pitch to the guy who just set the major league record for consecutive 200 hit seasons or do you pitch to the guy with the .167 obp? For me, it’s a no brainer. Ichiro is now 3 for 11 with a game winning homer and a .333 obp off Mo. Mo has only struck Ichiro out once ever. If the same situation presented itself, I certainly hope they make a different decision.
I meant to say pitching to Ichiro made no sense to me, but I think you caught my drift. Ichiro can beat any pitcher in the game. The same will never be said about Franklin Guitierrez.
Re: Mariano
I will not argue with letting Mo make his own decisions. If he chooses not to IBB Ichiro, that is his decision.
I didn’t see Burnett’s movements as a balk either. The pickoffs were either based on great hunches about when Suzuki ws running (probably by Tony Pena) or based on The Yanks picking up on something the runner does. We’ll know tonigt or tomorrow.
I agree on the no doubles defense. Swisher should have been another step or two deeper and he would have ended the game there.
Left handers are hitting .176 w/3 homers this year. Right handers are hitting .217 with 4 homers. In virtually the same number of at bats. Career wise, lefties are hitting .205 w/22 homers and right handers are hitting .218 w/38 homers in 200 less at bats. He got beat on a pitch which almost never happens with a left handed batter. Suzuki got him this time. Next time Rivera will get him. How many times has anybody seen the same batter beat Rivera twice in one year? Probably not since 1995.
The more egregious move was not taking SWISHer out for defense.
I wouldn’t jump on Joe, what the hell, some days you get beat.
It’s on Mo for giving up the two hits, but its not the end of the world.
Myself, I probably would’ve walked him….tying run or no tying run.
And in that situation, I’m walking Pujols every time….whether Mo likes it or not.
I’d much rather have mo blow a save now then in the AlCS.
So if they walked Ichiro and won the game, people would still complain saying that they should have pitched to Ichiro and Mo hates int walking people. It’s just 1 game. The yanks will win the division. Who cares?
Last I checked he’s Mariano Rivera. Mo can get anybody out.
Ichiro may have a .333 average against Mo now, but Mo has gotten him out .667 percent of the time. I like Mo’s odds.
Nick in SF / Dennis…..I was up bright and early as I was a Marshall for a golf tourney …….So I missed your star games …..I have Oregon over Utah -4 ,Norte Dame -10, UCLA -11, Loaded up on Oklahoma State -32
I think what Joe Girardi needs is a big time bench coach. His decisions he makes sometimes are just head scratchers.. but then again im just an arm chair quarter back
http://www.dailysportspages.co.....38;page=35
Wasnt Mariano annoyed earlier in the year when he was told to intentionally walk someone … I believe it was vs Tampa. Hes the best at what he does and he likes to go after the top hitters. He happened to get beat last night, but it was bound to happen and better now then in a few weeks.
It wasn’t that Mo even threw a strike on that pitch to Ichiro. It was definitely a ball. Ichiro moved and was waiting and ready for it. It could be that there has been too many patterns with how Mo was going after the hitters in this game.
Unbelievable! Pavano got hit with a line drive and is still in the game. With us, he would have had to be put on the 60-day DL.
I often disagree with Girardi, but on this one he’s right.
1)You don’t pinch hit for your best defensive catcher when you have a one lead late in the game. With such a narrow lead, you want your best defense out there in the ninth. If the Yankees are down one run in that situation, that’s a different story. Then offense becomes the priority and you pinch hit for Molina.
2) Why would Girardi have Mo walk Ichiro?? I don’t understand this one at all. He’s not typically a homerun hitter, and he doesn’t have good numbers against Mo. Add to that the fact that you would intentionally be putting the winning run on base in the form of a very fast runner.
This is basic stuff here guys. Didn’t any of you play little league?
It’s kind of embarrassing being a Yankees fan when so many people are
1) griping incessantly against a loss
2) doing such passionate Monday morning QBing to advocate for a retarded baseball play: Why would you put the winning run on in the 9th when that run is represented by a player with great speed and you’re playing in a park with a huge outfield?
3) Questioning Girardi over his management of Mariano Rivera. You want Rivera pitching scared?
Has any of you ever played baseball or followed it seriously?
I nominate Murray Chass to be Pete’s replacement.
(JK!)
“You don’t let their best hitter beat you, period.”
Wrong. Joe Girardi’s only conditions are to maximize his team’s chances of winning. Do the quick math and it is overwhelmingly evident that it was correct to pitch to Ichiro.
Honestly, it’s not even close. It’s embarrassing for the sane/rational Yankee fans that the rest of you are acting so clueless and second guessing. Please stop for all of our sakes, honestly.
So we all agree? Girardi made the right calls?
There is no reason for Girardi to go out to Mo (the greatest closer of all time and the guy who has not blown a save since April) and basically tell him you do not have full confidence in him. The game was meaningless and Girardi knew it. The only thing he is worried about is going into the playoffs injury free and with all their heads on straight. Why mess with Mo’s head when 99.9% of the time he gets the job done.
I wish you’d stop making excuses for Girardi.
Why? This isn’t little league. They all can hit. You can’t just put the best hitter on so you can face the skinny kid.
Who was left on Seattle’s bench?
Girardi through out the year has put his only 2 catchers in the game at the same time. He’s gambled with that before. So I don’t know why all of sudden he would be thinking ‘i don’t have a third catcher so i can’t pinch hit molina’. and as mentioned Hairston is/would have been the emergency third catcher.
The Yankees lost their 2nd best pitcher for the entire season, their best player for a month, and have Sergio Mitre going every 5th day. Yet, they still have 6 more wins than any other team in baseball.
I think it is pretty safe to say Girardi knows what he is doing.
Some days you’re the pigeon, and some days you’re the statue.
This is one game that will be second-guessed to death, especially if it somehow affects the remaining games and/or postseason. But life has to go on! There are more important games ahead!
I can’t see where people are calling for Gardner to pinch-hit for Molina. Barely an offensive upgrade there.
Sorry Pete but you really have to walk him in that spot. He can hit a single and tie the game. HR was a surprise but 2 for 11 against Mariano is irrelevant.
As far as Molina he is a double play in waiting. The reason you have a backup catcher is to use him.
No, of course we all don’t agree.
We should all agree that both of the calls Girardi made were highly defensible and there would be little to no debate about them the day after if the expected had happened.
Okay, the bench was kind of thin. Johjima, Langerhaus, and some Rookie with a Samoan name I won’t even attempt.
But still, putting the fastest playe on base, doesn’t make sense. And this is Mo. And that was Ichiro, not Manny or Pujols or Howard.
Ichiro simply beat the odds.
I can always count on you, Nick, to answer a rhetorical question.
“can’t see where people are calling for Gardner to pinch-hit for Molina. Barely an offensive upgrade there.”
What?
Molina hits about as good as a “good” hitting pitcher. Meaning he sucks at it -.592 OPS!
Gardner’s a .280 hitter.
Gardner: .280/.352/.404
Molina: .233/.308/.284
Gardner is a very significant upgrade over Molina. Plus, he is much, much less likely to GIDP, as Brett is the fastest runner on the team and Jose is the slowest.
I’m playing devil’s advocate here, since the question was more of the lack of a 3rd catcher than an offensive upgrade over Molina, but:
1) anyone on the bench would’ve been a significant offensive upgrade over Molina, including Gardner.
2) If Garnder was the hitter, he’s much less likely to hit into a double play even if he can’t get the ball out of the infield, so there’s a decent chance that either a run would’ve scored or at least you get Jeter to the plate.
You need to work on your rhetoric.
Tom,
I’ve seen them both referred to as automatic outs here. Just taking my cue from the “experts”!
Simply put, the odds were greater that Ichiro would get an out than hit a homerun.
When people said, “Walk Ichiro here” they didn’t say it thinking that he’d hur Mo the only way he could. Which is with the homerun.
You had the lead, so you could risk facing Ichiro.
So the 5:56 is inoperable?
Perhaps, Girardi didn’t want to burn 2 players with the move? I’m kinda grabbing at straws here, but he has pinch hit for Molina before, plus he had DH’d Posada before, leaving no backup catcher.
In the end though, maybe Girardi thought ‘well were winning and we have Mo…’
Since all the regulars were in the game, pinch-htting for Jose would not have been overly beneficial. If Matsui or Damon or someone was given the night off, that would be the perfect spot to pinch hit them in, but since their best offensive option was Eric Hinske, it would not have been a huge upgrade, especially against King Felix, who makes even the best of hitters look like little leaguers. Joe wanted Jose to catch Hughes and Rivera. It was, after all, a one run game and the pitchers know, love, and trust Jose. Bottom line: you can debate this all you want, but in the end Mariano got beat. He’s the one who is to blame, not Girardi
It was only the 7th inning. It was about the # of catchers, not the lack of a better hitter than Molina. CC is a better hitter than Molina.
Well, that’s why I’ll never be an expert, m.
And I have no problem with Mo pitching to Ichiro there.
Nick, I don’t think it was as much about the number of catchers as it was that Joe wanted his best defensive catcher to stay in the game.
“CC is a better hitter than Molina”
Sad but true.
Ed, that is probably also true, or primarily true. But again, it was about the catchers, not about the lack of someone who can hit better than Jose Molina.
Tom: I think m was referring to Molina and Gardner as the two ‘automatic outs’ according to the ‘experts’. The Mo/Ichiro question is seperate.
I would have pinch hit for Molina (probably using Gardner, for the reasons given by Nick and Ed H.) I had negligible concern about Cervelli’s possible injury. We need to consider probabilities.
It’s very unlikely that during 3 innings of work, a catcher would be so badly injured that he couldn’t continue. I’d guess the chances at around one in 1000. I think the chance that Seattle would score at least one more run in the last 3 innings was a lot bigger ( although I never imagined the game would end the way it did.)
Had Jorge been on the bench, would he have pinch hit in that situation. Close game, 1 run lead with a man on third? I think so.
Ichiro should have been walked IMO.
In case this was not posted previously, the WSj has an interesting take on these late season games.
“Teams that clinch early, lose early, too.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....04578.html
All this drama will only make #27 more likely in 2009.
At first I thought that Ichiro should have been intentionally walked, but then I recognized that was because I was acting in hindsight because of the outcome.
Strategically and based on who the pitcher/hitter were, you have to let Mo pitch to Ichiro in that spot.
The last thing you would expect would be for singles hitter to hit a walk off home run against a pitcher who absolutely buries lefties with his cutter.
If Ichiro had dunked a single to score the tying run, then the game is just that … tied. Mo could still get out of the inning and the Yanks could still win it in extra innings. But if you put Ichiro on base to represent the winning run, there are so many different ways the Yankees could lose with next hitter coming up … double, deep single with the outfield playing deep (Ichiro would be running on contact and could be rounding third by the time the ball is thrown), passed ball/wild pitch and then a dunker to win the game, error allowing Ichiro to score winning run. Let the Mariners keep piecing together the rally and not give them baserunners via intentional walk.
You have to roll the dice and trust that Mo could get him out … as Pete pointed out, Ichiro was only 2-10 against Mo before last night.
None of this makes Girardi a bad Mgr. or anything but you really have to walk Ichiro in that spot.
I’m not second guessing Girdi at all. He’s done a great job. But in my days of coaching and winning a couple of championships on an amateur level I know that I’ve never been sorry when facing a lineup that features one guy who’s the opponents best hitter and walking him with first base open when the hitter behind him is far weaker. Why let the major league leader in hits beat you? In last night’s case I think it made even more sense because Mo has dominated Gutierrez and he is Mariano Rivera. I trust he could get Gutierrez out easiy. Nobody gets Ichiro out easily. Ichiro is a HOF caliber hitter.
How sad that Mariano’s 1000th strikeout should come in the very rare game in which he is the loser.
I see some people say things like “that makes too much sense for people here.” NO, Pete and Girardi are wrong on one of the scenarios. I agree you should not walk Ichiro, that would be the Wong thing to do. However, you also may want to be smarter about pitching him down and in. That is the only place he can win the game for them…use the cutter up and in or go outside. That being said, the logic that you didn’t want to use a pinch hitter for Molina because you wanted to always make sure you had another backup catcher has to be one of the dumbest comments (and agreement by Pete) you can make? First, the Yanks usually carry one 2 catchers so why does Posada always pinch hit for Molina? Second, you don’t worry about losing your catcher in to injury in an inning or 3. You pinch hit there and let Cervelli play. Any other argument is simply not understanding the game. Oh and I if I hear that Molina has been clutch in those spots from someone than you should turn away and assume they know nothing as well because time and time again you see that it means nothing because all that matters is that one AB.
Tom in NJ, you are right, Girardi probably thought, well we have a lead…but that is what Torre said when he inexplicably pushed Mussina back in game 4 and allowed Boston a window to come back and beat us. You go for the throat when you can and when it is logical. Pinch hitting for Molina was without question the thing to do. Now, that might not have worked as well, just like bringing in Rivera didn’t work, but we know that was the right thing to do as would have been pinch hitting for Molina.