Blog Poll: Pick a No. 4 starter
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Sep 21, 2009 
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Joba Chamberlain hasn’t won a game since Aug. 6 and now sports a 4.72 ERA. But Joe Girardi said on Sunday that Joba would be the No. 4 starter in the postseason.
What do you think?
Vote in the poll over on the right for your choice behind CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Andy Pettitte. Phil Hughes is not listed as a choice because it would be impossible to stretch him out at this point.
Joba’s demise makes it almost certain the Yankees will take the longer division series — assuming they get a choice — so they can use only three starters. But a fourth starter would probably be needed in the ALCS unless the Yankees decide to use Sabathia on short rest.
A secondary question, perhaps, is whether Joba deserves to be on the roster for the division series.
Seriously with the stupid Nick Swisher choice?
The Boston obsession is getting ridiculous. Much of our fanbase is becoming very Red Sox/Mets fanish…
I would absolutely have Joba starting. I really think that his “demise” is a product of meddling with his starts. While the Yankees are probably doing the right thing, starting pitchers are creatures of habit. I think Joba will step it up in his last few starts and be ready for the postseason.
Talent-wise, he is one of our best pitchers. Considering leaving him off the roster is not even a debate in my mind.
I am surprised how fast people sour on Joba. The kid is 23, and is pitching in the AL East under a funky inning system. I think a 4.75 era is rather respectable.
Longer series, go with 3 starters.
ALCS? Joba with a short hook, go to Aceves (it’s what we’ve been doing anyway).
And yes, Joba should be on the ALDS roster. It’s not like we have a Porcello there to challenge him for the spot. I kid, I kid. Seriously, it would be devastating for Joba to be left off in lieu of a Dunn or Mitre. Although we could fool him with the “Guzman for pinch-running” excuse.
Nope. Joba’s struggles began long before they fiddled with his starts. Started off good, broke out of the gates like Rachael Alexandra right after the ASB. Otherwise, he’s done nibbled and slidered his way to ineffectiveness.
They changed their plans because he still wasn’t getting it done. So if the Yankees can be criticized, it’s for not sticking with their original plan.
And don’t forget his first inning struggles, and the routine they gave him to deal with that.
Joba hasn’t pitched well for much of the season.
Folks get fixated on his first 3 starts post-ASB. The last 9 since, and the previous 4 before the break, have been bad.
When you have a kid who has pitched well in 3 of his last 16 starts, you have an unreliable starting pitcher.
Unreliable starting pitchers get you beat in the post-season.
He’s not magically going to “find it” the rest of the way. For whatever reason, its gone. Maybe it comes back next year. Maybe it doesn’t.
All I know is, the kid is a disaster right now and I like to avoid pitching disaster guys in the post-season. I don’t see that as a winning strategy.
Let’s hope the Yankees get to the ALCS. If they do, then you can worry about whether or not to pitch the kid.
Right now, they need a good week this week and 3 wins in the ALDS.
Its not about Joba now. That train has left the yard.
Its about finding a way to win a World Series.
If he can contribute to that? Great.
If not, and he hasn’t shown that he can for the last 2 months, send him home and fill the spot with a guy who is pitching better.
Yes for on postseason roster. Pitch him out of the bullpen for the ALDS. Get his confidence back. Then he should be a starter for ALCS and WS. I’m assuming we get there.
Nick Swisher has almost as many votes as Joba-
Now I feel bad for voting for Nick……LOL
Igawa not an option in this poll?
I can’t even watch Joba’s starts anymore.
I was a huge supporter of his being in the rotation but he has done basically nothing to justify it. And that was before this “8 days of rest” plan and the “just 3 innings” plan.
No one in baseball can possibly need the season to end more than Joba does.
I’d say time for a IPK comeback!
Joba can give up a ton of runs in one inning, as he showed yesterday. How can he be trusted to coming out of the bullpen? It isn’t like he will magically return to a shut down pitcher when he hasn’t shown that in his three inning starts.
Joba or Nick? I don’t think either would start, but I would give Swish a shot before Joba, that is how poor Joba has looked this year.
JOBA JOBA JOBA JOBA..enough said.
Lets hope it’s just not at home, you guys know I’m too amped for home games.
I can give you an inning, so can Randy Levine
I think SJ’s got it right. It’s show up or sit down in the postseason for Joba. Time to see if Joba can apply what he’s learned. There’s very little margin for teaching opportunities in the postseason.
But this is what’s happened since Aug. 1st:
That is understandable and reasonable. But something is not working if Chamberlain is pitching worse than Sergio Mitre. Here are their statistics since Aug. 1:
Mitre: 37 1/3 innings, 46 hits, 27 earned runs, 10 walks, 26 strikeouts, 6.51 E.R.A.
Chamberlain: 36 innings, 50 hits, 33 earned runs, 21 walks, 27 strikeouts, 8.25 E.R.A.
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....o-october/
No 4th starter. Take the long division series, Joba to the bullpen, and pitch the game 1 starter of the ALCS (hopefully CC) on short rest. Everyone else lines up on normal rest after that.
Post eaten. But this is from Kepner’s @ Bats:
That is understandable and reasonable. But something is not working if Chamberlain is pitching worse than Sergio Mitre. Here are their statistics since Aug. 1:
Mitre: 37 1/3 innings, 46 hits, 27 earned runs, 10 walks, 26 strikeouts, 6.51 E.R.A.
Chamberlain: 36 innings, 50 hits, 33 earned runs, 21 walks, 27 strikeouts, 8.25 E.R.A.
=========================================================
And I think SJ’s got it right. It’s produce or sit in the postseason for Joba.
Is anyone concerned about the Yankees after this past weekend, e.g. how flat they look and how the pitching looks awful? Are they just being complacent for a week or so after a tough season or are did they peak at the wrong time?
Can I write-in Aroldis Chapman?
Is this any different than 2006 when we had to turn to Jaret Wright in an elimination game against the Tigers?
I would go with a three man rotation in the playoffs and have Joba on standby if we needed somebody to come in if somebody was getting blow out and hope for the best. I think that is our best shot at getting thru a team like Boston (if we ended up playing them in the ALCS).
Boston could be very very hard to beat with their pitching being healthy and right.
It hasn’t been all year with Joba. From April – July he had thrown 110 IP to an ERA of 3.58.
And to be fair, it didn’t seem like he was pitching that well because he was out of many starts by the 5th or 6th inning due to pitch count debacles of his own making.
Since August began however his ERA is over 8.
I think he hit the wall around Mid-August and since then has been running on fumes. Bad conditioning definitely hurt him. Messing around with his start dates / lengths can’t have helped but the problems he has had existed before that.
I hope he spends the entire winter working on conditioning. Run til he can’t run anymore and then run more.
Please see my comments under “The trials and tribulations of Joba”. Summarized here:
1. Look at Joba’s BAA, and OPS-A. “yecch”
2. short term plan- no Joba in post-season
3. long term plan- lots of work on player development needed
=== Additionally, ===
Who to replace Joba with for post-season-
1. I don’t know right now
2. Use the next 2 weeks for tryouts, as best as possible (without jeopardizing anything)- Gaudin, Mitre, Aceves, Kennedy (be careful with Kennedy- don’t put him there if his mindset isn’t ready yet.)
“It isn’t like he will magically return to a shut down pitcher when he hasn’t shown that in his three inning starts.”
I actually think he would. Let him come out of the pen with all guns blazing for one high-energy inning and I think he’ll be great again. Joba is a natural-born closer and he needs the energy of a one-inning outing.
Pitch CC on short rest and move Joba to the long arm in the pen. CC can step up.
Joba as the 4th starter? I don’t get it. If it’s at all possible, I say stretch Aceves out…..He will be wasted in his role if it stays the same. I say this because if the starters pitch well, they are going to take the game directly to Phil and hopefully Mo. If they pitch ok, but not great, they will still be kept in the game – they won’t be taken out unless they do poorly. So then we have Aceves being used in mop up duty to save the big guys for another game……that’s a waste. The fact that the Yankees didn’t think of this before now is inexcusable to me – they insist on sending Joba out there? At this point, there is only one outcome to expect and it’s not a good one…..unless you’re a fan of the other team.
Magic Number: 9
I gotta remember to fix that before I click submit LOL!
Pete,
Can you release my post about Joba’s and Sergio’s stats?
Joba’s WHIP has been bad this season. He’s simply putting too many men on base. It’s finally catching up to his ERA.
My vote is Nick Swisher by far… At least we get beat and laugh at it a lil bit.
Sorry Erica, I think Damon was out of line with his comments. As M said, he did accuse those team of not playing with integrity – that’s the worst thing you can accuse a team of and there is no basis for that. The Sox are much better than the Os and the Jays……that’s why they are beating them. What is he saying, also? That they laid down for the Sox ,but not the Yankees? Foolish comment.
Joba had 3 amazing starts after ASG which coincidentally was the time when we all would happily trade him to Toronto. Notice how the next start after the trade deadline the bad Joba was back. Maybe he just REALLY did not want to be a Jay. Maybe someone needs to tell him that it’s not just his postseason roaster spot he needs to worry about. Maybe someone needs to tell him that if these atrocious starts will continue Yankees will trade him – it could help…
Pete_
Heard you were leaving the paper and wanted to wish you the best of luck….You were the last hope for this site!!!
Scooter, the Yankees are trying to win a WS, not get Joba’s confidence back. He’s not going to magically transform just by being in the pen. If he’s in the pen, IMO, he’s one of the last guys you go to; he is completely untrustworthy at this point.
Joba is suffering from Ian (disconnect with reality)Kennedy
pitching disease. I.E. pitch terrible say you did a great job & see no reason to change anything.
Hope he gets straight, but keep him away from Kennedy.
Joba is painfully frustrating to watch right now.I’m not ready to give up on him, but I think he has lost his position as the fourth starter.Hopefully he can get himself straightened out and earn a spot in the rotation next year.I believe Gaudin as the 4th starter backed up by Aceves gives them the best chance in the playoffs.
As Shroder (sp?) told Charlie Brown, “The worst thing to have is potential.”
At what point do we realize that baseball history is littered with young pitchers with “potential” that never did anything more than tease, and that Joba is a another name in that list.
The NNYs got at least one very good pitcher out of the ‘generation tres,’ and his name is Hughes. I’m very happy with that success rate.
This is a recipe for disaster,and lowering team spirit,to keep Wishing he will pitch well.
The Yankees can’t hit enough runs to keep putting him out there to throw nothing but runs to the other teams!
He’s had ALL season to earn his spot in the rotation,and failed.
Help!
September 21st, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Is anyone concerned about the Yankees after this past weekend, e.g. how flat they look and how the pitching looks awful? Are they just being complacent for a week or so after a tough season or are did they peak at the wrong time?
____________________________________________________________
The only pitcher who looked awful was Joba. AJ and CC were great. If it wasn’t for Mo going all human on us, we would have won 2/3. Relax everyone.
Didn’t Joba also say the following: “I let my teammates down. It was pretty much embarrassing what I did, not being able to pick my team up and get out of here with a series win,” Chamberlain said.
But because he also drops a bunch of optimistic/positive lines, he is out of touch with reality? I hope he enjoys his time as the newest whipping boy for the fanbase. Every one of he, Kennedy and Hughes along with Cano and Melky have had their time as whipping boys. Seems like Yankees fans are really understanding when it comes to young baseball players.
GGBG:
Magic # is 9 now, no?
As for Joba, his ERA thru July looks pretty darn good. However, aside from those three starts following the break, he’d been chronically living dangerously, putting far too many men on base and requiring 11-12 outs from the bullpen per outing. Basically, he’s pitched very well in about a quarter of his starts. In 21 starts he has not recorded a win, his ERA is 6.12 and WHIP is 1.77 and he averaged 4 1/3 innings per start. SJ’s right. Joba’s pitching screams unreliable.
Is there a consensus on selecting the long series in the ALDS? I think it is the right choice vs. Detroit, but I’m not so sure vs. the Twins. The Minn starters are not too deep either.
I saw him live about a month ago. In one word…painful.
The worst is he is either in denial or delusional.
I just hope when they move Hughes back in that the same does not happen.
I’m looking to win the Guess-The-Date-The-Yanks-Clinch-A-Playoff-Spot-Contest tonight. GO YANKEES!!!!
Joba did say he let his team down. But when the writers asked more questions, I think he felt cornered. Just look at his comment about being kicked when he’s down. Kid’s going through a lot. The Yankees put a tremendous amount of pressure on him this season.
Damon is right. The Orioles have mailed in the month of September and the folks who run that franchise are fuming at the players.
Players know when players dog it. Its not a matter of the Red Sox being a better team. Its a matter of how you go about your business.
Do you still get your pre-game work in? BP? Work counts? Run balls out? Compete? Players know the guys who are still working at it and the guys who are reading hunting magazines. Players do talk to one another on different teams.
Tampa Bay has done the same thing and their management is no too pleased with a lot of guys in their clubhouse.
That’s what Damon is talking about and he’s absolutely correct.
The Orioles have some interesting young players on the rise.
However, if they don’t find a way to control the quit currently present in that locker room, its a toxic atmosphere for young players. They will never develop the right way to be winning major league players.
I think Joba should go back to the bullpen. Make the games into six-innings affairs!
Gaudin as the #4 starter. Seriously though, I hope that there is a rainout during the ALCS and that rainout coincides with Game 4!!!
Right now my confidence in Joba is a little low, so I would be inclined to go with the next best option, which I guess right now would be Chad Gaudin. However, I’m not ready to give up on Joba yet and there is a good chance that by the end of season I will have enough confidence in him to say that he is the 4th starter (in the ALCS). We’ll just have to see how the rest of his starts work out (as well as Gaudin’s). I think you have to have him on the ALDS roster, you never know what could happen and you need someone with his talent on the roster.
I am not giving up on Joba for the long term, but for the play offs I am not so sure. It will be interesting to see what he does in his next 2 starts. It puts too much pressure on the offense to be down by so many runs so early in the game (same w/ some of AJ’s starts)and gives the opposing pitcher too much of an advantage.
After Mo gave up the Suzuki homer,did anyone really think game three would be won with Joba on the mound?
He came in giving up runs,and 5 in the 2nd.
You don’t stumble into postseason with bad pitching,and think you’re going to win the WS.
It is a lot of pressure to put on someone who hasn’t been in the position before. I’m not sure they Yanks have anyone on the roster equipped to be the number 4 in the playoffs. My feeling is that the Yanks go with Joba and the offense simply steps up. Does anyone really want Chad Gaudin as their number 4? This is where the Yankees shooting themselves in the foot with the Wang injury really hurts them.
joba’s just about reached his innings limit for the season, i think its time to pull the plug and shut him down.
leaving him off the postseason roster might get it through his thick skull that he hastnt been pitching well and things need to change before opening day next year.
The Yankees didn’t put any pressure on Joba this year. He began the year as the #5 starter, with an innings limit.
That falls into the “little pressure” catagory.
He’s now the #4 starter. Again, not a pressure spot in a rotation.
Joba’s problem is Joba. Once he figures that out, he will get better.
He has nobody to blame but himself for his season.
He came into camp in poor shape. That’s not the Yankees fault.
He’s paying the price for it now because he’s on fumes.
Hopefully, he gets it together in the off-season.
This seems like a good debate topic. It will be a whole lot of fun to discuss it with Pete as the moderator when the postseason finally comes…oh wait, Pete isn’t even finishing the season with us…
sj
i respect your judgement enough to take a closer look at our two positions, but i don’t see the yankees having those two starters you’re talking about.
they have one in sabathia.
tonight we’ll find out maybe if we have two.
the yankees have no # 2 the way the red sox have lester .
and while we’re on the subject what’s up with the yankees developing their young starters?
they have developed zero good ones at this point and the red sox have lester and buchholz.
i think cashman’s development plan is back under scrutiny and eiland’s ability as a pitching coach.
if the yankees are one and done because of weak starting pitching there’s going to be problems in yankee management. cashman is safe , but eiland not so much.
i’m not saying to overreact here, but i’m also saying being in denial isn’t the answer either.
I kinda like Captain (Go) Dan. I love his stance on the mound.
But almost every playoff team has ?? at #4 & #5. As long as top 3 and bats get the job done, I think we’ll be fine. Not liking the 5-5 in the last 10 games. But it was an emotional week of Jeter. A fight. A blown save. They just have to overcome.
But I will be sorely disappointed if the Yankees come out flat today.
joba and bruney should not be on the postseason roster if there was any justice in sports.. bruney is a whip machine and joba is a joke, he is in love with his B level slider and throws a 93 mph fastball.
his postgame talks are embarresing and moronic… joba has been a huge dissapointment and is a cliche machine who has less baseball smarts then many posters on thsi site….
You can’t judge Joba’s early pitching performances by ERA.
He was only going 4-5 innings. Its easy to keep your ERA down when you don’t throw a lot of innings.
He has had a handful of good starts this year.
Overall, he’s been the most disappointing guy on the team this season because he isn’t tapping into his full potential.
When the entire team improves, and one guy doesn’t, its pretty tough to hang his lack of improvement on the team.
Get a big mirror in the off-season Joba and look into it everyday. You can BS writers and fans. You can’t BS yourself.
Get in shape, fix your attitude and he will be “back” next year.
If not, he joins Igawa in the Scranton rotation.
That would be a shame because Joba has talent. He has yet to show he has the head to be a consistent and effective starting pitcher.
Joba has never been the same since he hurt his shoulder last season… he had a problem with his shoulder in the past as well as I recall.
m – Joba is the 5th starter, how did the Yankees put tremendous pressure on him? They tried different things to get him to be successful, they tried more rest, shorter outings.
He gets kicked when he is down because he keeps saying that he is good, he is pitching well, except for a few bad pitches. He hasn’t been economical, he hasn’t had good control.
I don’t think he should be given up on, but he needs some toughening up. No excuses. If he does poorly he should own it. It would make it a non-story, just like when Andy does it.
It becomes a story when he divorces himself from reality. Its why AJ and Ian got nailed for doing the same thing.
SJ,
I beg to differ. I think there is pressure on Joba. Pressure to be “Joba”. They’re developing him in the majors and they’re destined for the WS. There is pressure on Joba, especially since Wang went down.
He hasn’t responded well imo, but as long as our hopes don’t rest on him. I don’t really care.
Milton Bradley suspended and sent home for the year for attitude problems. Shocking!
“Damon is right. The Orioles have mailed in the month of September and the folks who run that franchise are fuming at the players.”
He’s right that the O’s and some others have mailed it in.
He was wrong to suggest that Boston is somehow the sole benificiary. Yankees have seen a lot of the Rays, Jays and O’s in September too. 15 games to be exact. Those teams didn’t exactly come into those series with both guns blazing against the Yankees either.
SJ44,
How do you know that the Orioles management is upset with their players? Do you have the inside info what is going on in their clubhouse?
Since the poll is who “should” be the #4 starter, I’m not voting in it. It “should” be Andy Pettitte or Burnett with Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay in the mix. It “should” be Jarrod Washburn. It “should” be someone that can goes 6-7 on most days.
I didn’t say I gave up on Joba. The pressure is not from the Yankees, but I think Joba’s feeling the pressure.
They’re not telling him he has to do this or that. Be this or that. They’ve made every effort to make it work and make him comfortable.
But I think Joba’s feeling the pressure when he’s out there on the mound.
Hey guys. You’re now talking to the champion of my fantasy league as I just won it all last night! I named my team Ms. October and everyone came through for me in the clutch (even Mo who was on the opposing team and chose an excellent moment to blow a save).
This is the first chance I’ve had to post since hearing the sad news about Pete’s departure, and I’m really broken up about it. I also really hope this isn’t a sign of anything bad down the road with the Yankees–We can’t lose anything else to those sox!
LOL at the sign in the bathroom. Those signs became my enemy about a month ago when I was at a certain cafe in Toronto–actually it was called Bonjour Brioche, never go there! No toilet paper in the bathroom, but all the NAPKINS, like the ones used on your table, were stored all over the bathroom, behind the toilet, everywhere. then there was a sign saying don’t put napkins in the toilet, only toilet paper.
“You don’t stumble in the playoffs with weak starting pitching and win”?
Really? Check out the 2000 Yankees. Lost 15 out of their last 18, most by 5 or more runs a game, and won the World Series.
Check out the 2006 Cardinals. Jeff Weaver won playoff games.
Research a little before you post hysterics.
Randy,
Andy Pettitte missing a turn doesn’t mean he can’t pitch anymore. The guy has pitched great the second half of the year.
Everybody looks to rest an older arm when you are getting ready for the post-season. That doesn’t put Pettitte in the unreliable catagory.
How does Eiland fall under scrutiny this year? Every guy on this team is improved from last year except for Joba.
Perhaps Joba will come into camp in better shape next year which will undoubtedly help them.
Buchholz has pitched well against last place teams. That doesn’t make him “developed”. He’s also older than both Chamberlain and Hughes. As is Lester.
Hughes seems to have turned the corner. He’s pitched better than just about any young arm in the league since May.
How is Cashman’s “plan” bad? Last year, they didn’t make the playoffs. This year, they have the best record in baseball.
Geez, tough crowd.
Once the playoffs start, its out of the GM’s hands. There are no other moves to make. You play the games and find a way to win 11 of them.
No GM has a magic formula for playoff success. Its all a crapshoot.
Gm’s responsibilities are to get though 162 games and put the team in the best possible position to win.
Cashman has done that. The rest is on the players to perform.
If Joba can’t handle being a 4th or 5th starter on the Yankees, then he isn’t destined for much of a career.
The Yankees have put zero pressure on him. Joba’s issues are Joba’s.
I have friends in management with the Orioles. They are ripping at the way their team has mailed in September.l
Not what they want to surround their young players with as they learn how to play at the ML level.
Swisher is un-hittable!
I am a little confused by this:
“Joba’s demise makes it almost certain the Yankees will take the longer division series — assuming they get a choice — so they can use only three starters.”
Take the longer division series? What does that mean? I thought it was a 5 game series in the ALDS no matter what.
Sorry if I am missing something here.
Anyway, Joba just needs to make it through this season. Work on some things over the winter, and report to Tampa in the spring ready to go.
“Not what they want to surround their young players with as they learn how to play at the ML level.”
1st step was to get management that could play at the ML level. I think they’ve done that in McPhail, but Rome wasn’t built in a day.
“Take the longer division series? What does that mean? I thought it was a 5 game series in the ALDS no matter what.”
Extra day off, which would allow a team to use only three starters in a 5 game series.
Joba is a mental midget….perfect for a machismo closer role. Phil Hughes not being a part of the rotation is a glaring mistake.
why does SJ 44
post thoughts in one sentence bites.
it’s almost
as if
he’s thinking that this is twitter.
and that he’s limited
to 160 characters
per line
Thrillington
September 21st, 2009 at 12:50 pm
I am a little confused by this:
“Joba’s demise makes it almost certain the Yankees will take the longer division series — assuming they get a choice — so they can use only three starters.”
Take the longer division series? What does that mean? I thought it was a 5 game series in the ALDS no matter what.
Sorry if I am missing something here.
——————
The difference is in how many days you play those 5 games over…whether you use the 4th starting pither or pick the series where your numbers 1 and 2 can go twice
I can’t wait to see Ian Kennedy pitch again. He’s still my favorite of that trio (with Hughes and Joba).
It doesnt matter who starts Game 4, the Yanks will be lucky to get out of the first round
they have developed zero good ones at this point and the red sox have lester and buchholz.
–
Buchholz is developed? He has 1/4th of a season’s worth of good starts. Joba was excellent last season and alright the beginning of this season. Hughes was good this season.
Lester took 4 seasons to finally catch on and had plenty of minor league time. If anything Joba should never even be categorized as a pitching prospect because he had less than a full minor league season full of instruction in our system.
Rishi,
espn rankings. Yanks are 5-5 and Sx are 9-1 in their last 10, but the Yankees are up by 5. Enough to supplant the Yankees? Or will they just put the Dodgers in the top spot?
There is no way they can pitch this version of Joba. He isn’t going to going to “find” himself with only 10 more innings. He is a disaster now with more than one issue. It seems that every start is a different problem. Either his delivery, pitches are flat, location, nibbling, throwing breaking pitches in the wrong count. It is definitely not something the team wants to do but they have no other choice than to start Gaudin and hope for the best. Maybe next season Joba will find it, but it isn’t coming in the next 3 weeks.
Oh my God, the panic here is kind of hysterical. Calm down. Whatever happens, happens. We’ve got two really solid starters on our team, three if A.J. gets it together, and two of his last three starts were really good and in his one bad start all the damage was done in one inning. Relax.
I voted for Gaudin. Sorry, Jobber.
btw, that’s a just for fun question.
so, please, folks. no lectures about who cares about power rankings.
“Buchholz is developed? He has 1/4th of a season’s worth of good starts. Joba was excellent last season and alright the beginning of this season. Hughes was good this season.
Lester took 4 seasons to finally catch on and had plenty of minor league time. If anything Joba should never even be categorized as a pitching prospect because he had less than a full minor league season full of instruction in our system.”
Great post.
I am not a huge Joba fan, but who else do they have? Mitre has been even more sporadic. Gaudin has not pitched badly in a couple of his starts, but it is shame this is the best the Yanks can do.
at this point, chad gaudin may be the most reliable 4th starter. get 5-6 out of him and you are good.
Guys, this is only the fourth starter. It’s not the most important spot in the world. You can win w/o great fourth starters as long as your other starters are solid (cough Danny Neagle cough).
Since the poll is who “should” be the #4 starter, I’m not voting in it. It “should” be Andy Pettitte or Burnett with Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay in the mix. It “should” be Jarrod Washburn. It “should” be someone that can goes 6-7 on most days
___
Washburn was horrible in Detroit and now is out for the year. Lee is better because he is in the NL. Halladay rolls over everytime he faces boston.
Is Girardi nuts?? Joba is not the same, aggressive-style pitcher anymore. We have no chance to win a series with him in the rotation.
Go with Aceves. Aceves knows how to pitch and he is already stretched out since he works about 5 innings to cover joba. Aceves is a good starter and he would only need to go 6 innings in an ALCS start.
Joba is a power pitcher and was effective when he threw 97-98 mph. Lately, more of his fastballs have been a more Andy petitte like 91 but Andy has better placement and far more pitches to deceive batters with.
Of course we have a chance to win a series. One of two things needs to happen, and both are VERY, very possible:
A) Joba surprises everybody and pitches well. He has that ability
or
B) Everybody else pitches well
I’m confident one of those two things will occur.
“Lester took 4 seasons to finally catch on and had plenty of minor league time.”
Not sure about your 4 seasons theory, but because Lester was drafted out of high school, he did get the benefit of nearly 400 minor league innings before the bigs. Some argument certainly could be made that getting at least 200 or perhaps the 300+ that Hughes got was in order.
Jeremy,
Overstating Aceves’ innings a bit there.
But to me the best thing the Yankees could do is to make a decision about Joba right now. If they decide not to go with Joba, use the next 2 weeks to stretch out Aceves.
The most important thing tonight is that Andy comes out of his start feeling good. Hopefully his arm issues go away.
m
September 21st, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Rishi,
espn rankings. Yanks are 5-5 and Sx are 9-1 in their last 10, but the Yankees are up by 5. Enough to supplant the Yankees? Or will they just put the Dodgers in the top spot?
——————–
With ESPN? I’m going to say they give it to the Dodgers…the SportCenter lead in last night was “the AL East is now up for grabs”
sorry – that should be give it to the RED SOX
I really don’t think there is much panic here.
It’s the normal posters. And then there are rampant trolls. You can spot the trolls easy. They are the ones with the names you have never seen before and will never see again
I think they’ll give it to the Dodgers. They’ve beaten Col. & SF. The Sox have beaten the Orioles. (I know they beat the Angels, but that doesn’t help my argument any, haha).
I was a major voice in keeping Joba in the rotation to start the year, but the Joba that we see now dosent have the stuff to be an effective starter or reliever for that matter.He has 2 HUGE problems that i dont see being corrected, he cant throw his fastball for strikes,look at the horrible walk rate, and he has lost velocity. When he was 96-97 mph it didnt matter it was straight as a string, but at 91-92 that str8 fastball gets hammered especialy when he cant spot it.Maybe if he’s in the pen he can go all out for one inning and get it back ,but that remains to be seen. This post-season is a pipe dream or a nightmare if they decide to trot him out there. i know he is young and understand the learning curve but he has LOST his fastball and until that comes back,or he gains impecable control, he will continue to get hammered.
Jeremy (Missouri)
Who ya got in the World Series?
Buster Olney (1:02 PM)
Hi, Jeremy… Let’s get this on the record — before the season, I had the Rays vs. Phillies. A month ago I would’ve had Yankees vs. Phillies. As of today… I’ve got Red Sox vs. Cardinals. Boston is putting together its pitching at just the right time, and while Carpenter has been knocked around of late, I still like their No. 1-2, plus a good bullpen, and a deep lineup. But to reiterate, I can’t claim any great talent at picking this stuff this year.
We were both wrong. Good job by espn on getting it right. haha. Yankees just need to reward their faith this week.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/powerrankings
m
September 21st, 2009 at 1:08 pm
I think they’ll give it to the Dodgers. They’ve beaten Col. & SF. The Sox have beaten the Orioles. (I know they beat the Angels, but that doesn’t help my argument any, haha).
———–
And it keeps the “East Coast Bias” hounds a bay for a little while.
The Yankees just need to get back to winning so I can go to Sunday’s game stress free
Lester wasn’t good until his 3rd season in the majors. He had 140 innings of mediocrity before 2008 when he broke out. Was going off memory and was a year off. The point stands. Lester, cancer aside, had to find his way in the minors and majors before establishing himself as a star. Joba gets another year or two before I start calling him a bust or a moron or whatver you guys are saying.
I want to see Joba next year after a fruitful offseason of conditioning with Hughes at the Performance Institute.
I know after a crappy season he is going to get pressured by the Yankees to train and why not do it at the place Hughes had great success at?
I vote the Yanks get HFA, take the extra day schedule, win the ALDS in 3 and ALCS in 4.
CC pitches game 4 of the ALCS and WS on 3 days rest and no 4th starter is needed.
Oh, Olney. You’re assuming the Sox can win in Anaheim?
m
September 21st, 2009 at 1:09 pm
We were both wrong. Good job by espn on getting it right. haha. Yankees just need to reward their faith this week.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/powerrankings
———————
Sweet! the record actually counts for something – I do win the Red Sox v. Dodgers thing
(i know, that wasn’t the question, but anytime I can win something I take it)
Meanwhile, I just broke out the headphones because this girl in my office is BANGNING ON HER LAPTOP and the noise is killing…so now she is just banging harder. You realize you don’t type faster or with less mistakes if you just type harder, right?
Bold prediction time: Yankees sweep the Angels, two of three from the Sox this week.
That’s right, I called it.
The Sox resurgent staff doesn’t scare me because the Yanks own Dice-K.
M
Yeah more like 3-4 innings for Aceves. They Should stretch him out before the playoffs because he is a good pitcher, and he comes through in big spots. I rather have a guy like that who I know will give me at least 6 quality innings than Joba.
dont care what kind of roll boston goes on. the yankees have a better chance against the sox than anaheim if they get to the second round.
Boston globe is reporting that the sox will pursue King Felix in the offseason. My gut feeling is that they will land him someone how but who do the sox have to give up?? lester?? buckholz??
Yikes some rough options huh? Joba is so bad now I guess you have to go with Gaudin… I must admit I voted for Swish because I pretend to be funny.
Lester is not going anywhere. If they give up somebody it will be Buchholz.
Oh, we’ve played the Sox well in recent years. Even at Fenway.
But I think the Angels offense can stand up to the Red Sox. So you (Olney and others) just assume the Red Sox roll right over the Angels.
*can’t just assume.
“Lester wasn’t good until his 3rd season in the majors.”
Third year, but in reality he sandwiched about 3/4 of a decidedly ordinary season around his bout with cancer over 2006 and 2007. He’s pitched more or less at a 1/2 starter level since.
Still, you’re right in suggesting that Joba should not be written off as a bust. Still plenty of time for the potential to be realized.
So if the royals beat the red sox 1 of 3..the night greinke pitches and yankees take 2 of 3 from LA….. the magic number would then be 6? going into the big weekend with the sox…..geez this is too nerve racking
Let me be the first to say it…Joba, Melancon and Jackson for Josh Johnson….I believe that would be a fair deal for both teams…
John (Boston)
What odds do you give the Red Sox in winning the Al East? They are only 4 back in the loss column and play KC, NYY, Tor and Clev, while Yanks have LAA, BOS, KC and TB??
Buster Olney (1:24 PM)
John: Longshot. I hear you on the schedule, but keep in mind that neither Francona nor Girardi is going to alter their planning one bit in order to go for the division title. Francona isn’t going to start throwing Lester on three days’ rest, and he’s not going to pitch Papelbon five days in a row… Both teams are going to be in the playoffs, and the focus of both teams is going to be prepping for the post-season, and not winning the division.
RMel, unfortunately Joba & Melancon’s stock is at an all-time low. I think the Yankees still like Joba’s potential.
Unless Joba shows serious improvement in his last starts, I have to say Aceves. He’s been so solid out of the pen, he didn’t do well on the one start he had but I have a feeling he’d be fine.
“Buchholz is developed?”
jerkface-
developed enough that he’s contributing wins in crunch time.
i don’t see any young yankee starter doing that.
i do agree it takes time for young starters to develop which is precisely why i like 25 year old starters rather than age 22-23. i’d rather the yankees slow down hughes and joba to be ready at 25 rather than at 23.
That’s an awful deal for the Marlins.
Trade their best pitcher for a AAA CF they don’t need, a relief pitcher who can’t throw strikes and a starter who has pitched worse than Mitre the past 2 months?
How is that remotely fair?
You want Johnson. Start with Hughes and Montero.
The Marlins don’t need to trade JJ. They also have no desire to give him away.
SJ44,
do you feel the Yankees have given Joba, and certainly the media, an excuse in how he has been handled?
We (here) know that it’s on Joba to produce. The discussion on this blog about Joba is probably more credible and informed than anywhere else (certainly in the mainstream).
However, with the “joba rules”, switching him to a starter, monitoring his innings, and then this new “extended spring training” schedule he’s on…
all he or anyone else has to say is “The Yankees mismanaged him” and that’s why he has struggled.
It’s time to throw joba to the wolves, IMO, and make him learn the hard way.
no more babying.
no more excuses.
How are the Sox going to get King Felix ? I though the Mariners were going to keep him to build up their pitching staff. If they didn’t trade him this year why would they do it next year?
RMel, unfortunately Joba & Melancon’s stock is at an all-time low. I think the Yankees still like Joba’s potential.
—-
M, totally agree but Joba is still under contract for 4 year plus some rumbling about Johnson wanting big money….just a suggestion
The Sox are going to get King Felix because it’s Boston.
developed enough that he’s contributing wins in crunch time.
–
Ian Kennedy contributed wins in crunch time for the Yankees in 2007. So did Hughes.
You’re playing a silly selective end date/small sample size game and annointing Buchholz as complete. He beat up Toronto, who he owned even when he sucked, and the Orioles.
Let him pitch a whole season like this and then you can say how awesome he is.
Jeremy,
the thought is that the Mariners will attempt to sign Felix to a longterm deal.
If they cannot get that done, they will almost certainly look to deal him for a ton of talent.
When they trade him? nobody knows.
I still think they’d need to be overwhelmed to deal him this offseason, but the Sox would be smart to try.
I’d like to see them keep Felix, as i’d like to see Minny keep Mauer.
“Boston globe is reporting that the sox will pursue King Felix in the offseason.”
They can pursue who they want, Boston doesn’t have the guys to get that done.
And Seattle will be very careful on next deal. They were killed in the Bedard for Adam Jones, George Sherill, Chris Tillman deal.
Joba is about 3 years younger than all of these pitchers that have now found it. All of them have had MUCH more time in the minors to learn how to pitch. Maybe he needs to start next season in AAA to help him get better. There is nothing wrong with that if he had to do it. Not everyone is Lincecum where they are unhittable right away. Joba is going to have to learn how to pitch with what he has now because he doesn’t have the great stuff anymore.
developed enough that he’s contributing wins in crunch time.
i don’t see any young yankee starter doing that.
i do agree it takes time for young starters to develop which is precisely why i like 25 year old starters rather than age 22-23. i’d rather the yankees slow down hughes and joba to be ready at 25 rather than at 23.
–
Also I want to address this again, then you say “Oh well they are 25 and REALLY I like 25 year old starters so the yankees suck” but Boston had Lester AND Buchholz up in the majors when they were younger. They sucked. If they pitched well they would have stayed there. They didn’t.
So I guess Theo wasn’t much of a genius then ?
Jeff (Boston, MA)
Hi Buster, there are rumors that the Red Sox will be aggressively pursuing Felix Hernandez in the offseason (and reports that they tried to do so before the trading deadline as well). What does it take to get that done if it could be done at all?
Buster Olney (1:27 PM)
Jeff: Wouldn’t surprise me if they asked (and a lot of teams would be interested), and this might be the only way they’d entertain a trade of Buchholz. But rival execs think that Boston will be more reluctant this off-season to trade prospects, after giving up arms in other trades (like in the Victor Martinez deal). My guess is that in the end, nobody will give the Mariners what they will require to swap King Felix. We’ll see…
That’s an awful deal for the Marlins.
Trade their best pitcher for a AAA CF they don’t need, a relief pitcher who can’t throw strikes and a starter who has pitched worse than Mitre the past 2 months?
How is that remotely fair?
You want Johnson. Start with Hughes and Montero.
The Marlins don’t need to trade JJ. They also have no desire to give him away.
—-
Trying to tell me that Joba stock is that low…Come on…Its about the Money and Johnson wants to get paid and the Marlins are not going to do that…Ok…Ill Make it Joba and Montero and I bet the Marlins would do that in the second and so would Cash…Joba’s act is old and while he still has 4 years of service time…maybe you could pull something like this off….If you think the Yankees rotation is CC, AJ, Andy, Joba, Hughes next year your nuts…Its way too questionable for Cashman liking and you know he will added a front line starter…why not Johnson
Ryan (Astoria, NY)
What’s your take on the Yankees handling of Joba?
Buster Olney (1:34 PM)
Ryan: I think it has nothing to do with why Joba has struggled. I think that has a lot more to do with his lost velocity… which he could help with a different approach.
Ryan (Astoria, NY)
What’s your take on the Yankees handling of Joba?
Buster Olney (1:34 PM)
Ryan: I think it has nothing to do with why Joba has struggled. I think that has a lot more to do with his lost velocity… which he could help with a different approach.
jeremy,
if the mariners are not able to sign Felix for the long term they will trade him and they are not going to wait too long because he is going to be a free agent in 2011.
I am a big Joba fan but he was completely lost on the mound yesterday and is very unlikely to be of any real help to the Yankees from this point forward in 2009. It could just be conditioning, he’s never pitched as many innings as he has this year. We’ll see if he makes a commitment to getting himself in better shape for 2010 since he now understands first hand what it takes to pitch a full season in the majors.
As for the 4th starter, Aceves is the pitcher on the staff with the most talent with a flexible role, he should be the #4 game starter in an ALCS with the Yankees selecting the ALDS series schedule with the extra days off. For some reason, though, Girardi doesn’t seem interested in having him start. He can be pretty inflexible but the post season is a different animal than the regular season, particularly since there are more off days and CC, Andy, and AJ usually go pretty deep into games which minimizes the need for a long reliever to burn innnings.
As for AJ, he’s been really good 2 out of the last 3 games, I think it’s time to get over this bad streak as he’s pitching much better right now. He was really good for a couple of months this season, it’s likely he will be the ‘good’ AJ for the rest of the season and the playoffs.
The Yankees, in spite of their current problems (which is just a lull after an extended run of .700+ baseball) are still the best team in baseball, I’ll take that going into the crap shoot called the ‘post season’.
The Mariners have time to use Felix for themselves, and still get the goods in a trade for him.
I don’t think he’s going anywhere this winter.
“Its about the Money and Johnson wants to get paid and the Marlins are not going to do that”
Johnson’s free agency doesn’t come til after the 2011 season, so Florida is certainly in no rush to move and his price will be higher than you’re suggesting.
The Red Sox are going to pursue King Felix.
Just like they pursued Mark Teixeira?
“if the mariners are not able to sign Felix for the long term they will trade him and they are not going to wait too long because he is going to be a free agent in 2011.”
———–
not if, but “when” smaller market teams trade their stars is becoming very interesting.
at what point do these players provide max value?
obviously, trading felix now gives much more value to the receiving team than if they were to trade him mid-season next year.
but how much?
and is the return going to exceed his value to the club should they keep him for next season?
same thing with roy halladay. right or wrong, the blue jays felt the value in keeping him and trading him later exceeded trading him at the deadline.
and perhaps we’ll see this analysis with josh johnson.
Nice to see Pete leave out comment s like this…seems that his Red Sox boat has sailed and is doing as much as he can to turn the fans against these players…
from Sliding into Home:
UPDATE: When I first wrote this post I was unaware of a quote from Joba that Peter Abraham left out of his post. Here it is via MLB.com:
“I let my teammates down, and it was pretty much embarrassing what I did,” said Chamberlain, who completed just three innings. “Not being able to pick my team up and get out of here with a series win, it’s frustrating.”
That’s much more like it. I don’t really understand why Peter Abraham left this out of his post, but it certainly shows a completely different side of Joba. While I still don’t know how Joba can say things he did were “great” yesterday, at least he admitted his outing was embarrassing and that he let his teammates down. Thanks to Caroline for pointing this out to me in the comment.
SJ, then what does that say about the Yankees losing 2/3 to a team that apparently tanked it?
Wait till the ALDS
September 21st, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Bold prediction time: Yankees sweep the Angels, two of three from the Sox this week.
That’s right, I called it.
____________________________________________________________
Can you please call for saturday to be a win? I am taking some sox fans to the new stadium for the first time and I would really like them to experience a loss
NYY626 – is that the scheduled Joba game? Might need to start praying for a miracle
“You’re playing a silly selective end date/small sample size game and annointing Buchholz as complete. He beat up Toronto, who he owned even when he sucked, and the Orioles.
Let him pitch a whole season like this and then you can say how awesome he is.”
since you threw out the first “silly”. i’ll tell you what’s silly and that’s you supporting cashman no matter what stupid baseball thing he does.
the fact is that the yankee starting pitching sucks right now and you can spin it any way you want and it’s not going to change that.
ypu like a broken record in your support of cashman.
you have any original ideas?
LOL Buster……so, he picks the hot team at the moment and not who he thinks is best. What a joke.
lol, Rishi.
A comment at the bottom of the chat:
Knew317 (Today at 1:27 PM)
Report Violation Hey, Boston has it’s own ESPN now, leave some questions for the rest of us!
“SJ, then what does that say about the Yankees losing 2/3 to a team that apparently tanked it?”
————
the Yankees, in their own way, have “tanked” it
if they were still fighting for a playoff spot, they wouldn’t be resting guys as much and using as many minor leaguers.
one luxury of the lead they built, is risking some games in exchange for resting pitchers and position players after a long season.
that said, it would be nice to see the Yankees finish the season with some intensity that can be carried into the playoffs. too much rest and too many “unimportant” games may be a bad thing.
Boston Dave,
if the Mariners wait too long the Red Sox or other teams are not going to give up premium talent to aquire him. They will wait to sign him when he becomes a free agent then the Mariners will get couple draft picks.
If Clay Buchholz were on the Yankees, he’d be the next big thing.
Some of you need some objectivity (on both sides).
m – too funny!! I am going back and forth between the chat, here and work so I’m usually a bit behind somewhere
i can’t believe that i just voted for gaudin, but let’s face it, he’s the better pitcher right now…Unless joba redeems himself over his last few starts this isn’t really a tough decision. Of course let’s worry about the alds before the alcs.
“The Red Sox are going to pursue King Felix.
Just like they pursued Mark Teixeira?”
joe from long isand-
now that’s something i’ll give cashman credit for.
texiera is the real deal and the difference between these two teams this year in the regular season.
He beat up Toronto, who he owned even when he sucked, and the Orioles.
Its not true that he always owned the Orioles. He had the no hitter against them in 2007 but in 2008 his ERA jumped to 8 against them. He faced Toronto I think in 2009 not before.
christina25,
I agree though I don’t think he’ll ever hit free agency in almost any scenario.
I would make every attempt to sign him this offseason and trade him if they can’t.
The market of teams that will want him then will be huge… especially in an offseason that is somewhat weak for starting pitchers.
Is John Lackey really worth 5/$80M? I don’t think so.
Felix (and perhaps Aroldis) will be the apple of every GM’s eye and he may offer max value then because of the # of interested parties.
ummmm……. ALFREDO ACEVES is a much better PITCHER than Joba who should be in the pen.
m – where did you see the “they have their own ESPN” comment – I ca’nt find it…apparently didnt make a difference since there are still a lot of Boston questions today
JOBA CANNOT WIN A GAME BECAUSE THEY DONT LIKE HIM GO 5 INNINGS-loll (it would be good if that was stated)
and i think joba is a relief pitcher not a starter.
Rishi
September 21st, 2009 at 1:48 pm
NYY626 – is that the scheduled Joba game? Might need to start praying for a miracle
____________________________________________________________
Haha I’m aware. I emailed my friend this morning; “I bet you’re excited about saturday, I think Joba’s pitching”. But I think the sox are throwing out Dice-K; so I’m praying for our potent offense to help Joba out.
The Joba saga has reached comedic proportions. This is turning into a cautionary tale by the day…
The Mariners can’t afford Felix,they can see if he’ll agree to an extension.
Mlbtraderumors said the Sawx offered 5 for 1 last year.If they really want to go all out they will.
Halladay won’t be traded in the division.
Of course all of this is conjecture.Cashmam may pull a rabbit out of his hat again.
I am a fan of Cashman, but I am not arguing in his favor. I am arguing against the ‘Red Sox do no Wrong’ argument. Theo had Lester and Buchholz up and down in the majors and minors for 3 years. Buchholz is on a nice run. Joba has been on nice runs.
Any move Cashman had available to him would probably be getting crushed right now. Bannister is hurt. Washburn sucks. I guess he could have signed another veteran in the offseason?
Really the only thing I don’t like is his handling of Wang, and I don’t know enough to crucify Cash.
“i can’t believe that i just voted for gaudin, but let’s face it, he’s the better pitcher right now”
———–
I said the same thing when I voted for Gaudin.
In a vacuum, I’ll reward the guy who is both trying the hardest and getting the results every time.
Gaudin seems to be pretty good for 5 innings before cracking a bit. Gaudin for 5 and Ace for 2-3 isn’t a horrible Game 4 option should they make the ALCS and WS.
NYY626
September 21st, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Rishi
September 21st, 2009 at 1:48 pm
NYY626 – is that the scheduled Joba game? Might need to start praying for a miracle
____________________________________________________________
Haha I’m aware. I emailed my friend this morning; “I bet you’re excited about saturday, I think Joba’s pitching”. But I think the sox are throwing out Dice-K; so I’m praying for our potent offense to help Joba out.
———————————————————
I’m praying they don’t decide to push him back to Sunday for whatever reason (I’m going on Sunday)…
“They will wait to sign him when he becomes a free agent then the Mariners will get couple draft picks.”
Sox history says they’ll nickel and dime him and he’ll sign with someone else if he hits free agency. They might be smart to give up the premium talent and work out an extension when they are the only ones allowed to negotiate.
Betsy,
They were one pitch away from winning that series. The one night Mariano was human.
I’ll take the same situation as Sunday 99 times out of 100 since nobody, not even Mariano, is perfect.
They played great for two days and Joba didn’t give them a chance to play yesterday.
Look at the standings today. The Yankees are in good shape.
Its not about “money” with the Marlins any longer. They have a new stadium being built and money isn’t going to be an issue.
They aren’t trading Josh Johnson for prospects. They don’t need to. In fact, they are negotiating with his agents now on a contract extension.
Fantasy trades are always suggested to heavily favor the team one roots for despite being written as “fair” trades.
The Marlins have Cameron Maybin. They don’t need Austin Jackson.
Mark Melancon has no trade value.
Joba? A lot of baseball do not see him as the lockdown starting pitcher many do. His season this year certainly hasn’t swayed the naysayers.
That’s the package for Josh Johnson? The Marlins would laugh in the Yankees faces with that offer.
If you want some original ideas. How about Cashman has a guy like Gaudin we can throw in the 4th spot in the playoffs. Joba might turn it around. Maybe he tandems Ace and Gaudin since our ‘regular BP’ is pretty solid without Ace.
Its tough not being as deep as the Red Sox. They could cut half their starting rotation and they still just throw those quality arms out there like Dice-k ’100 pitches of fun’ matsuzaka , and Paul Byrd.
Ryan (Astoria, NY)
You mentioned earlier how Girardi and Francona won’t alter their managing to try for the division. While I agree they won’t, I think you’re understating the importance of winning the division. The division winner gets home field against either the Twins or Tigers, while the wildcard has to go on the road to Anaheim, which is a much tougher road.
Buster Olney (1:59 PM)
Ryan: OK. And Francona and Girardi both probably recognize that. But they won’t alter their post-season planning in order to try to make that happen… the risk/reward is just too low. We’ve seen how managers handle this kind of situation in the past, and they always choose the rest/alignment route over trying to win the division.
BD, when I think of “tank”, I mean a team that isn’t trying out on the field. That said, Girardi started experimenting way to early and now he’s allowed the Sox (by virtue of their extremely hot play of late) to get right back in this thing. I think he took too much for granted……..though it’s not his fault that the SP has been pretty lousy. I do not understand his insistence on Joba starting instead of Aceves….Aceves, as I said before, is completely wasted in his role and Joe is foolish to think Joba is just going to wake up and pitch well in the post-season.
I do not get blaming Cash. I think Phil in the pen was a mistake which we will see the results of next year. He still doesn’t have a change (I guess he’ll go to winter ball for that) and he still is going to experience ups and downs that young pitchers do. He’s lost a year of development as a starter – even acknkowledging the confidence he’s gained as a reliever. That said, it’s hard to argue with the results this year. Without Phil in the pen, I have no clue how the pen would have gelled; as it is, I have faith in all of 2 guys…..and maybe Aceves. Theo gets no credit from me for keeping CB on the farm while he trotted out Smoltz and co.
Boston Dave,
Do you think that any team that trades for Felix will attemp to sign him before the trade is complete?I dont see that happenning. I think he will taste free agency no matter what. I cant stand John Lackey. He is a punk.I dont think he is worth 80 million dollars.
“Fantasy trades are always suggested to heavily favor the team one roots for despite being written as “fair” trades.”
—————
cmon SJ! fantasy trades are so much more fun
who cares if they not only have no chance of being accepted but would also greatly insult opposing GMs to the point that you’d lose all credibility among your peers?
Joe is going to pitch CC on short rest in the 7 game series. Joba will not be starting a game 4. He will come into games where Burnett falters or be #2 behind Aceves
Rishi –
Call me crazy, but it might stress me out if we sweep the sox this weekend. I always feel like we play pretty evenly during the year. If we win all 3, it would be their turn to win “according to the universe”, which means we lose the ALCS.
And yes I do realize this makes zero sense logically…
He still doesn’t have a change (I guess he’ll go to winter ball for that) and he still is going to experience ups and downs that young pitchers do.
–
Betsy, I was reading an article about this and I wouldn’t be too worried about the change. He has thrown it a couple of times recently out of the bullpen and the article mentioned that most pitchers work on pitches in the bullpen (side sessions not out of the BP) until they are comfortable bringing it into a game. It would be nice to let him just throw it without consequence in the minors, but even if he wasn’t confident enough in it he wasn’t going to throw it much as a starter anyways.
I’m confident he’ll either develop the feel for it or move on to a different pitch. Maybe a split or something.
christina25
September 21st, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Boston Dave,
if the Mariners wait too long the Red Sox or other teams are not going to give up premium talent to aquire him. They will wait to sign him when he becomes a free agent then the Mariners will get couple draft picks.
======
And what “premium talent” would the Red Sox be in a position to offer?
christina25,
correction: I dont think Seattle lets him see free agency.
He may very well want to become a free agent but Seattle would be wise to deal him if they cannot wrap him up with a new contract.
I am unqualified to speculate here but I’d think he’d require a deal comparable to CC’s. I’m not sure how many teams can offer him that.
I’m counting on Trey Hillman to have a little “gotta beat the Sox” mentality left over from his days in the Yankees organization to help the cause.
Girardi hasn’t been “experimenting” with anything Betsy.
He has an older team. The idea is to be fresh for the post-season. Not to win 110 games.
What good does it do to burn out your team in September when you don’t have to?
He has a 5 game lead with 12 left. That’s a huge lead.
I get the fact the Yankees lost yesterday so everybody is going to “predict” doom.
Fortunately, team isn’t as doom ridden as some of its fans.
When you have the luxury to rest players who are sore and a little beat up, so they are stronger in the post-season, that’s what you do.
Exhale on the panic people. You sound like Red Sox fans.
Pat,
For some reason I dont see the Red Sox not giving Felix a lot of money. Couple years ago Theo was asked the question about what player is worth building his team around and he choose Felix. I have no doubt that he will pay him big money especially since Beckett is going to be a free agent in the winter of 2010, Lowell is going to be off the books and Ortiz.
NYY626-
I totally understand what you are saying – don’t want to use up the “good game against Boston” mojo…makes no sense, but I understand
I had HOPED to watch the Yankees clinch at home Friday/Saturday and then go Sunday and chill knowing the division was locked up and it was “fun time” – see more of the kids etc. and not have to worry that the outcome of the game would affect anything more than whether or not they hit 100 wins.
Thought I could get that at the Phillies game last week (where I didn’t care who won and you knew they were going to beat the Nationals with Cliff Lee going), but we sat under the big board so I couldn’t see anything, didn’t know a lot of the players and got bored.
Actually spent time thinking about how Jon & Kate had filmed there and where they might have sat…not good at all
” I am arguing against the ‘Red Sox do no Wrong’ argument.”
jerkface-
ok, i can agree with you on that. i don’t believe for a second that theo doesn’t make a lot of mistakes because he does.
but one thing the red sox do is throw a lot against the wall to see what sticks.
i think theo increases his chances of something sticking with pitching better than cashman does.
so built into theo’s approach is a lot of error. we agreed on that.
but wouldn’t it have been better for the yankees to have left hughes and aceves stretched out as starters so that the yankees would have depth in starters instead of no depth now.
this is a mute point for the playoffs because it’s too late to do anything about it, but i think theo made a good move in leaving buchholz in triple a for half the year and rolling the dice with penny and smoltz.
they didn’t work out , but he had buchholz as a back up plan. if they had worked out, he would have had a nice problem on his hands.
if pettitte is healthy tonight and throws a good game, my alarm level will drop in half because the yankee offense can mash with anyone.
if pettitte has problems, yikes.
SJ, I meant the O’s, not the Ms. The Yankees played horribly against them at YS
The same people calling Joba a bust are the ones who wonder – regularly – why we never develop any home grown pitching talent.
More than a little ironic.
Jerkface, I am confident that Phil will get the feel of the change- he’s just got an aptitude for pitching. He also works hard – I can’t believe that he won’t get a good change down. I was really only talking about next year…..but as for a split, I don’t want him to go there. It’s a hard pitch on the arm, I think…….or so I’ve read.
The Front office controls what happens with Joba/Aceves etc., not Girardi.
If Cashman is committed to developing him as a starter, there is nothing Joe can do. GMs and managers work in unison. But ultimately, the GM has the final say.
but wouldn’t it have been better for the yankees to have left hughes and aceves stretched out as starters so that the yankees would have depth in starters instead of no depth now.
this is a mute point for the playoffs because it’s too late to do anything about it, but i think theo made a good move in leaving buchholz in triple a for half the year and rolling the dice with penny and smoltz.
–
Theo didn’t really have a choice. Buchholz got smoked last season. I think Cashman always has a lot of options, its just he gets killed when they don’t work. We had Darrel Rasner, Shawn Chacon, etc.
We had plenty of back up this season, the biggest problem was them trying to bring Wang back. They should have just punted Wangs entire season. That really messed with Hughes. However, I think the Hughes move is going to pay off. It’d be nice to have Hughes as the 4th starter in the playoffs, but at this point who cares? The 4th starter has marginal impact and Girardi could always try to pitch one of AJ/CC on short rest in lieu of a 4th starter. Hughes confidence boost from the bullpen HAS worked out.
Really the difference between Theo and Cashman’s season is that Cashman is tryign the Byrd/Smoltz/Penny portion in the second half, thats because our pitching was good overall in beginning/middle portion of the season.
Boston had a lot of trouble with injury / no dice-k early.
We’re doing the Penny/Smoltz thing with Mitre/Gaudin *now*. its not ideal but I can’t kill Cashman on it.
It just couldn’t be seen how effective Ace and Hughes were going to be in the bullpen. That really stopped the Yankees from taking them out without thinking of how that production was going to be replaced
I found the BAA-type data on Baseball Reference. As you would expect, they show how poor Joba has been the last 2 months:
Joba’s last 2 months (BAA/ OBP-A/ SLG-A/ OPS-A)
August = .323/.414/.500/.914
Sept = .333/.400/.561/.961
When you compare Joba’s overall 2009 BAA stats to other Yankees starters, plus a few others, you can see the stats pretty much confirm what each of us feels about each pitcher’s performance. Mo has the best stats overall, CC has been the best starter; Andy & AJ are about equal to each other (leveling out streaks); and Hughes and Aceves are about equal with each other, and also nearly equal to CC’s stats:
Joba = .273/.363/.436/.799
Sabathia = .232/.287/.361/.648
Pettitte = .257/.324/.393/.717
Burnett = .246/.337/.396/.734
Rivera = .197/.235/.323/.558
Hughes = .217/.290/.353/.643
Aceves = .221/.274/.379/.652
In response to:
Help!
September 21st, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Is anyone concerned about the Yankees after this past weekend, e.g. how flat they look and how the pitching looks awful? Are they just being complacent for a week or so after a tough season or are did they peak at the wrong time?
_____
How did the pitching look awful????
Joba was the only one who looked awful, everyone else did a really good job.
AJ on Friday : 7 innings, 1 earned run
CC on Saturday: 7 innings, 1 unearned run
Mitre on Sunday: 5 innings, 1 hit!
COME ON…. REALLY?!…. Only Joba pitched poorly. Mariano blew the save on friday… but i mean, he has been phenomenal, he’s allowed to make a mistake. Only his second blown save of the year.. i’m pretty sure no other closer this year has less than that.
Oh, and i voted for Gaudin. He’s the only one who’s proved himself and deserves a shot.
Giambi I can see but Jeter knowing a con artist psychic just doesn’t compute.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/l.....bEgarYtA9I
bodhisattva,
I’m not saying that those players are premium talent but Buchholz, Casey Kelly, Doubront,Pimentel are very good players.
Girardi experimenting has cost us exactly 0 games.
He has used Bruney more, but not in favor of Hughes, Coke, or someone good. He has rested guys, but that is a product of being an older team. You play Damon, A-Rod, Jorge etc. every day, they will flame out.
The horrendous SP is the reason for the slide. Burnett was awful for a 6 week span. Joba was awful ever since the ASB, save his first 3 starts. Mitre is a punching bag. Gaudin is what he is (even though we have won all 3 of his starts).
Sox starters are all pitching very well. They don’t have automatic give-ups like we do with Mitre and Joba.
Rishi
September 21st, 2009 at 2:07 pm
NYY626-
I totally understand what you are saying – don’t want to use up the “good game against Boston” mojo…makes no sense, but I understand
____________________________________________________________
Glad to know I’m not insane then
Andy misses one start, says he’s fine, and the LoHud universe gets ready to jump off a bridge…
The Yankees have a 5 game lead with 12 left and it’s time to panic and complain that Girardi is a moron…
this often seems like some kind of Bizarro world of Yankees fans, I wonder what happens when the real world meets the Bizarro world. Will it be like George Costanza’s famous line, ‘a LoHud divided against itself will not stand’?
Or more likely, the trolls and bridge jumpers will once again disappear after the Yankees play well this week, only to return at the first (and I mean the very first) sign of any trouble in even a meaningless game.
As my hero, Crash Davis would say, Joba’s got a million dollar arm and a five cent head. However, if Nuke LaLoosh could make it in The Show, so can Joba Chamberlain.
I think that the Yanks need to shut Joba down for the year right now. He’s worthless to them in the playoffs and he can only hurt himself and the team from here on out. Put Gaudin in the number four slot and hope for the best.
The Yanks need to ride his gluteus maximus over the winter to make sure that the dude shows up in shape. Give him a chance in the spring to earn a spot on the big club but guarantee him nothing. It’s on Joba. He needs to understand that.
Option 1: Pick other starter and using Joba as the long reliever (to leave him off the roster might damage his psych in long term);
Option 2: Use Joba as #4, with a quick hook when things get dicy early (aka Rogers under Torres).
None of them sounds a comfortable position, but that’ where we are at, for the moment, when a drastic change may backfire.
Seriously, what ills Joba? Velocity? Reaching (inning limit) physical limit? Headcase? or all of the above?
For next year, we need another free agent starter and bring Hughes to start sooner.
Torvald:
Really? This passage was in my story:
“It’s pretty much embarrassing what I did,” Chamberlain said.
Plus I posted the entire audio of his comments. What else would have me do?
Back to Pete’s question. Leav JC off of the ALDS roster. Bring him back in ALCS/WS as a 6/7 inning man. In the meantime keep starting him for the rest of the season even if he stinks.
christina25
September 21st, 2009 at 2:18 pm
bodhisattva,
I’m not saying that those players are premium talent but Buchholz, Casey Kelly, Doubront,Pimentel are very good players.
===
christina25, define “very good.”
Pimentel and Doubront both have mediocre FBs. Buccholz isn’t remotely in King Felix’s class and Kelly is a nice prospect, but again, nowhere near an elite status.
The fact is, the Mariners laughed at the list of six players submitted by the Red Sox (with the “pick four you like” directive). Bard was on that list, as well as Kelly and I believe, Buccholz.
You can’t snow the Mariners into taking mediocrity in numbers for a prize like Hernandez.
LOL. Dream on.
If Gaudin pitches good against the Angels he should get the spot.
I am not sure that Joba is completely blind to his failure, just not confident enough to come out to admit it. Maybe there is hope, so long there is nothing physically unsound. Time for the pitching coach to work his magic (if there is any).
What’s embarrassing is how uncritically many posters here accept what the media wants to pass off as a story.
Joba basically told the media to stuff it, so they try to elevate their importance by claiming that Joba is delusional because he doesn’t come clean with them.
The media, right or wrong, is tolerated by players, whose goal is to get out of the clubhouse once the game is over. Chamberlain is not going to hold court on his mechanics just because the media is hungry for a story.
Why don’t you scouring fools accept what his battery mate said? “We want him to be positiive….” He also said it’s in Chamberlain’s best interest to put an essentially ST abbreviated outing behind him as quickly as possible.
In other words: giving the writers the scoop is pretty low on the priority list for Chamberlain, and the Yankees, for that matter.
If Girardi doesn’t stretch Aceves out, he deserves to be fired.
You don’t keep your best option in the bullpen while “automatic loss” Joba starts a key playoff game.
Girardi better start Aceves or else
Rishi,
At the bottom of every espn article (except Bill Simmons, oddly enough), there’s a comment section.
I see no reason to make that decision now. It’s possible the Yankees won’t have to decide on a # 4 for the post-season for three+ weeks. A lot can happen in that time.
That said, Joba has been awful and will have to be on a short leash if/when he starts from here on in.
Long term, I’m assuming the Yanks plan for Joba and Phil to take two rotation spots which leaves one for Pettite, or Mitre or Gaudin or Aceves or Kennedy or a FA (Lackey?) or a major trade.
I don’t understand where all the panic is coming from…this is the same team that has the best record in MLB. The Joba situation is worrisome, but AJ’s pitching this weekend was much better and if Andy pitches well tonight, there is one less thing to worry about.
Lester gave up 3 runs to the Os yesterday and Beckett has been struggling in some of his starts, so they have issues as well.
“Chamberlain is not going to hold court on his mechanics just because the media is hungry for a story.”
Wouldn’t be much of a story anyway. There’s little evidence to suggest Joba could issue informed thoughts on his mechanics at this point.
Here’s another thing to consider when it comes to the media.
They all say, “I don’t root for A or B, I root for my story.”
How very revealing.
The writers betray their true interests with this defense; they shouldn’t have a “story” they root for, their job is to report WHAT ACTUALLY OCCURS, not tailor what they see and try to pass it through the filter of “their” pre-determined “story.”
The idea that Joba is in denial is a “story” they root for.
and yet SJ44 last wednesday actually commented that Joba wasn’t as bad as he nows claims….is it schizophrenia, being bi-polar, alzheimers, or the fact that he just loves to contradict what people comment on just to hear himself talk?
==========================================================
SJ44
September 16th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Marte has had one bad outing since he has returned. Pettitte being held out for precautionary reasons. That’s what you do when you have a big lead.
Robertson begins his throwing program today.
Ace pitched well in his last outing, as has Coke.
CC has been dominant. Joba was much better the other night, and the back end of the bullpen is still lights out.
The one problem is AJ. That’s a concern.
Dice-K had one outing. Let’s not declare him “back” just yet.
Beckett has been awful the second half. Wakefield is still hurt. Buchholz has shown he can beat Toronto and Baltimore and not much else. Paul Byrd is in their rotation.
Their only really fearful starting pitcher at this point is Jon Lester.
I hardly see how their pitching is up to form.
I wonder what Joba is saying to his pitching coach and his manager. That’s more important than what he says to the press.
Rex
September 21st, 2009 at 2:46 pm
“Chamberlain is not going to hold court on his mechanics just because the media is hungry for a story.”
Wouldn’t be much of a story anyway. There’s little evidence to suggest Joba could issue informed thoughts on his mechanics at this point.
====
I beg to differ; I’m sure Joba could speak at length about his mechanics. That doesn’t mean, however, that he isn’t at a loss to correct them when they go awry in-game.
Really, the naivete here is astounding. Joba is smart enough to play dumb. The Yankees don’t need neophytes running to their lap-tops with jargon about pitching mechanics they don’t even comprehend.
jerkface-
i think one thing we can agree on is tonight’s start with pettitte is important.
i think that it’s more important that he’s healthy and pitching well rather than winning the game , but a win would be nice too.
to me it’s all about getting ready for the playoffs.
.. and boston dave., good to see you back commenting.
Ed H.
September 21st, 2009 at 2:49 pm
I wonder what Joba is saying to his pitching coach and his manager. That’s more important than what he says to the press.
======
I think we can assume with a degree of certainty that there is an on-going dialogue. We can also assume with some confidence that the information will stay in-house for the present time.
Has any other partial plan season ticket holder received a letter from the Yankees today? If I’m reading this right, only 1,500 of us are going to get a chance for playoff tickets? Am I correct?
“Really, the naivete here is astounding.”
So is the know it all-ism.
Can we vote for Brett Tomko?
I’m not naive enough to think that the NY media doesn’t have its own agenda at times. But I don’t think they’re out to get him like they were with Alex all these years.
But Joba went with the cliche, then when the questions kept coming Joba got defensive. He talked about being kicked while he was down. Nobody’s doing that. Remotely at all doing that. The team, his teammates, and more than they otherwise would have supported him. He hasn’t gotten killed by the media at all. I don’t see it.
Should they leave the poor kid alone? Probably. But Joba sucking lemons is a story. It was the story of the day.
If Joba doesn’t want to face the tough questions, then he needs to pitch better. As for dealing with the media? The media turns stars into superstars. The players do need the media because they help shape their public persona. Jeter, Tex, and others have learned to deal with the media as a necessary evil. Heck, Giambi and Ortiz benefitted from their goodwill. Barry Bonds (even before the steroids), Randy Johnson, and Sheffield choose to take a different route.
I agree w/ what SJ had to say last week, w/o benefit of a crystal ball.
JerryD- Tomko is done for the season
This comes down to management not being able to admit a mistake. Joba needs to be back in the bullpen for the rest of the year to see if he can be effective from there. Anybody else would be a better 4th starter.
To the last part about Joba not even being on the DS roster…
If he’s not going to start, why wouldn’t you have him in the pen for the division series?
“Really, the naivete here is astounding. Joba is smart enough to play dumb. The Yankees don’t need neophytes running to their lap-tops with jargon about pitching mechanics they don’t even comprehend.”
I agree. A thinking pitcher may not be the best for most of MLB starters, especially when they are young (Schrazer from Arizona comes to mind). We shouldn’t ask too much out of Joba (to articulate about his ordeals), but a bit improvement on the performance would be helpful.
You dont think Buchholz and Bard are very good? If the Mariners dont like the players that the Red Sox offered they can get the draft picks when he hits free agency.
Tryouts are underway and Gaudin is leading the pack. Girardi is losing his patience on Joba even if he won’t let it be known to the press. Joba is walking on thin ice and only a delusional wouldn’t see it. Girardi was disgusted with the messy pitching of Joba. Mitre was good as a long reliever yesterday, and may stay there and be an important piece for us. If Gaudin keeps pitching strongly as a starter, this will no longer be an issue.
Who intrigues me is Kennedy. I hope we see him pitch soon to see if we can find another good option here.
*The team, his teammates, and fans (for the most part), have supported him
Yea I guess if Pettitte struggles or doesn’t seem good to go for the playoffs then the Yankees would definitely be in trouble.
I think he will be his old self though. I trust him.
Every regular season game is important to a point. After all, Yankees are nearly certain to clinch the playoff spot; baring total clapse, they should win the division and retain the homefield advantages. Thus, it is important that Petit is healthy for this start, the result (how well he pitches) is secondary (so long it is not totally out of wack).
Drive 4-5, I emailed my ticket representative: the way it works is 1,500 people with partial plans are getting randomly selected for the pre-pre onsale that season ticket holders with more than 20 games get to participate in on the 23rd. Then, after that, those with partial season ticket plans (less than 20 games) can buy tickets starting on 9/25.
“I think we can assume with a degree of certainty that there is an on-going dialogue. We can also assume with some confidence that the information will stay in-house for the present time.”
Bod, yes, both are obviously true. My point is that we should not be parsing every word of Joba’s comments to the press because we are not privy to his communications that really count.
Jay
September 21st, 2009 at 2:55 pm
This comes down to management not being able to admit a mistake.
——————–
Exactly. Why is Joe so determined that Joba WILL be starting for the team with the numbers that he’s put up this year? There’s sticking to your guns, and there’s also a point where you need to call a spade a spade.
I’m not saying that this would work, but Girardi has literally done everything else – why not call this kid out in public? Its pretty obvious, given last night’s performance in front of his locker, that its not going to hurt Joba at all.
lol, pull a Sweet Lou and call out Joba like Pinella has Milton Bradley. I would pay real money to hear Joe say, “Joba looked like a piece of crap out there today!” Really, its not going to hurt the kid’s feelings. Girardi has done everything for the kid except send him a bouquet of roses, and, while the team has done everything that it can to pick him up, he’s still lost out there.
I don’t see how running him out there every five days is doing anything to help either Joba or the team get closer to the postseason.
m,
You’re not seeming to appreciate a (not so) fine distinction.
Who said they’re “out to get” anyone? They have a storyline: Joba in denial.
Translation: the kid isn’t going to cough up anything to us and our apparently over rated powers of persuasion. Boiler plate is what Joba is going to give them, so the “story” is that Joba is in denial. He is: he’s denying them a “story”.
I was a sportswriter for 10 years. I’ve been in many sweaty postgame gatherings. I once beat an enormously bigger paper (than the one I worked for), which got beat because it was so in bed with the NFL team we both covered, they were hamstrung by all the perks.
Our story was so big, they couldn’t just pretend it hadn’t happened, because the player was on record with us front to back. The next day, you had to see it. The rival paper’s two honcho reporters were literally holding up this guy trying to get him to say he was misquoted.
They wanted to run a counter story to make themselves look as though they had recognized a “non” story by getting him to back track. I was standing there, trying not to smile too much. To his credit, the player said “No, I said all of it.”
There are all sorts of little games going on.
Joba doesn’t need to pitch better in order to avert “tough” questions. In fact, Joba just needs to pitch and not worry about the fanatical reaction to every pitch the kid throws.
Johan Santana wasn’t a regular starter until his fifth ML season. This may take some time, folks, so you might want to get up and roam around the cabin before reaching out and tugging on the emergency lever.
If Joba weren’t currently on the best team in baseball, there wouldn’t be such an outcry with each outing. The idea that putting him in the postseason rotation might be a bit of a roll of the dice is understandable, but this idea that he needs to step up and shut up the media is slightly ridiculous.
How about the media just shuts up and reports what happens in the games, and then reports the kids answers to their questions, without going into morality overdrive and dime store psychoanalysis?
Interview the pitching coach or get ahold of Newman or Nardi if they want to do an earnest story on Joba’s makeup and mechanics.
Andrew GTLU Bronze Medalist ,
Thank you. I was having a hard time understanding it.
Orlando,
Your problem is, you greatly over estimate the power of the theater.
Everyone needs to realize that Joba is not in great shape. Unlike last year when he joined the starting rotation his fastball was sitting 94-100 like Verlander and his command was much better. Since the injury and the lack of prep. in the offseason Joba has not been good. He needs to work hard this offseason like Hughes did in order to regain what was lost.
Ed H.
September 21st, 2009 at 3:10 pm
“I think we can assume with a degree of certainty that there is an on-going dialogue. We can also assume with some confidence that the information will stay in-house for the present time.”
Bod, yes, both are obviously true. My point is that we should not be parsing every word of Joba’s comments to the press because we are not privy to his communications that really count.
====
Oh, I know that Ed H. I was agreeing with your comment. My irony there was companion to yours
.
Joba has two starts to get it together, but I don’t think he will. I’ve lost faith in him as many Yankee fans have.
It’s a combination of what we see on the field, what we hear through the media and what we came to expect of a player who came to the Yankees and dominated.
The only silver lining I can think of is Cano and Melky had similar frustrating campaigns last season and they’ve both come back to be much better players.
In that sense, I think it’s time to write Joba off for this season.
I want Aceves stretched out and ready to start in the post season.
I don’t see the strategy in potentially sending Joba to the hill in a post season start with Aceves waiting in the pen to bail him out.
They should flip flop that role and allow Ace to start and have Joba, Gaudin, etc. ready to come in if Ace can’t hang.
It’s a matter of which pitcher has pitched well this season. Ace pitches against tough lineups all the time in key situations and does much better than Joba.
Maybe a return to the pen gives Joba some focus or some freedom to let loose again.
I don’t know.
I just know that Joba is awful this year. What ticks me off as a fan is that he only showed up when he was the subject of trade rumors.
Then all of a sudden he could pitch like a professional.
Once that bullet was dodged, he went down the tubes and all that makes you think as a fan is he’s complacent.
I’ve heard people speculate he’s pitching this way to protect the arm so he can stay healthy and get starter dollars.
That may be true. I tend to think more than he’s out of shape, enjoying the good life and thinks he’s untouchable because of his “legend”.
I also think he’s so afraid of the failure he’s staring in the face he’s finding it hard to push past that.
I said it back in June and I’ll say it again. His problems are between his ears.
It’s when think when you’re like that and you pitch like David Wells.
It’s another thing when you’re like that and you pitch like garbage.
He’s added nothing to this team outside of a few starts and being a rally monkey on the bench.
I don’t start him in October.
Last year when Joba started we all saw his ability and potential. He was basically the Ace of the staff last year when he started. And the matchup between him and Beckett last year where he shut down the Sox at Fenway for 8 innings was his best start.
m
September 21st, 2009 at 3:00 pm
*The team, his teammates, and fans (for the most part), have supported him
====
I guess it’s hard to hear the boos from Hawaii.
Those booing fans, who have shown no support, are in essence booing the Yankees plan to develop our own starters.
The idiots don’t grasp – and why would they, being idiots – that the Yankees, or any club, can have no lasting success without developing arms from within.
They want them developed, but they’d prefer that messy unseemly process to take place in darkness, and not in the light of day, or under the Stadium night lights.
Boston will have a lot of problems signing any players, much keeping their own, until they can figure out how to keep that idiot, Larry Luccino away from players negotiations and normal people.
GreenBeret,
Do you really believe that? Just because Tex(who made up his mind before Lucchino went to Texas) said that it mean its true. A lot of players that left the Red Sox said that they were treated well in Boston by the management. Even Lugo who was booed by the fans said he was treated well.
Backbench-
I found the Charlie Brown cartoon which mentioned “potential”; the character was actually Linus.
http://eclecticemily.wordpress.....m-peanuts/
Everyone keeps saying that Joba has two starts to get it together, but is that really enough? He has proven time and time again that he just isn’t on top of his pitching. Joe continues to send him out there as if there will some improvement, yet there hasn’t been won.
Our offense shouldn’t have to cover Joba’s butt when he gives up runs and walks. Yes we should give him a lead, but he just blows it!
Joba was better off in the bullpen. I think Joe needs to look at how important these last couple of games are for the Yankees and how important it is that we win.
Joba is much more effective as a one inning guy late in the game. Every time he starts, he lets up three or four runs in the first inning. He doesn’t have the stuff to be a five inning guy.
I am not sure why people think the Yanks are responsible for Joba not turning into a decent let alone quality starter. Perhaps, all of the hype about Joba is just that –hype based on his 2007 role as a reliever.
I have watched Joba all season. I see a guy who does not seem to pitch with much energy in most of his starts. He nibbles and he is not blowing people away with the same type of fast ball and sharp biting sliders that he had in 2007. I think hitters have learned to work counts and not chase a lot of his secondary pitches because they are often not strikes.
It seems when Joba gets in trouble he does it in a big way and cannot stop teams from having big innings. By comparison, CC is able to contain damage and somehow when he does not have his best stuff he exudes confidence that he will be able to work through the game and give his team a chance to win. I do not see that in Joba at all and I doubt it is due to his relative inexperience.
Simply put, I think we have all over rated his ability and he is not going to be anything more than a #4 or #5 starter. I am not even convinced that JOba would excel as a reliver since he has shown so little ability to pitch quick innings.
Right now in the ALDS we go with 3 starters. If we make it to the ALCS I would be far more comfortable with Gaudin or even Mitre right now vs. JOba. I think I would tell Joba he is in the pen because he has done very little to justify why we would trust him in a starter. I wouldn’t even be upset if we told Joba that he is not on the post season roster because this guy really has done very little to prove that he belongs with this club. If Joba was someone one else and given his record and his overall performance — particularly since mid AUgust– I think the Yanks would consider him a border line candidate for the post season roster.
Come this off season I am all for finding some team who still buys into the Joba Rules hype and make a deal for a corner outfielder.
Let’s all remember that the most innings that Joba has pitched in the majors is 100. He’s at 146 right now. There could be some fatigue involved.
“Joba is much more effective as a one inning guy late in the game. Every time he starts, he lets up three or four runs in the first inning.”
Hey genius, you contradicted yourself. If he always gives up 3-4 runs in the first inning, you can’t trust him with a bullpen role, either.
I’d say teach Swish a knuckle and let Wakefield it…
Don’t make excuse for Joba! He does enough of that himself. He is not the same pitcher who came into the 8th inning in 2007 with a 97 – 100 MPH fastball and blew batter away. His fastball is now only 93 MPH and he has very little confidence in it because it gets hit hard and often. He is constantly arguing with the Yankee catchers because all he wants to throw is off speed stuff because the fastball is nothing special and gets hit all over the park. The sad fact is Joba lazy and likes to party too much. He is his own worst enemy. He appears to have the Gooden / Strawberry disease– too much party not enough work. Joba is too young to rule out a comeback but all the signs are present – lazy, out of shape, poor performance, and bad attitude. Yea, he was a fan favorite and ruled the Bronx 2 years ago but now is a disappointment to the Yankees, his fans and the rest of baseball.
What the happened to Joba’s 100 MHP fastball. The Yanks have installed the Joba rules 2 years ago to protect his arm and he still stinks! I rather give Kennedy another chance than give the ball to Joba and have to witness another half hearted effort. Joba is an under achieving, overrated, under worked cry baby who cannot get batter out!
Joba can get anybody out! He has an avg 90 MPH fastball. I don’t care where you put him, bullpen or starter, he stinks right now, no control – too many walks, poor attitude –too many excuses, lazy, weak fastball. He pitching is a liability right now not an asset. Joba will most likely blew-up again and not make the post season roster.
Requesting pitching coach Dave Duncan to help Joba is ridicules! What makes Joba so special that the Yankees have to import a special pitching coach just for him? You are advocating for another type of Joba rules – special rules just for him? Quit kissing his back side and sent him to the minors where he belongs!