Truth or consequences?
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Oct 03, 2009 
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When David Price hit Mark Teixeira in the first inning last night, it sent shock through the Yankees dugout. A player getting injured in the final, meaningless weekend of the season is the nightmare scenario for a team about to begin the division series.
Teixeira, who is normally one of the more understated players on the team, wouldn’t offer much when reporters in Tampa asked if he thought Price hit him on purpose. “I have no idea,” he said. Joe Girardi also wouldn’t let Price off the hook, saying, “I don’t know,” but he looked into the Rays dugout while shaking his head when he came out to check on Teixeira.
Obviously he was thinking about Sept. 8, when CC Sabathia hit Rays slugger Carlos Pena with a pitch that broke Pena’s fingers and ended his season. Was Price getting some payback?
For those who think so, don’t forget that the Rays – who denied intent – had the rest of a four-game series to exact revenge back in September. And Price, in particular, actually started (and pitched quite well, in fact) the night after Pena got hurt.
Of course, even if they believe it was on purpose, the smart thing for the Yankees to do is nothing. Wait until spring training, wait until next year. It’s more important to get ready for the playoffs and, as they learned a few weeks ago with Jorge Posada, even a minor bench-clearing can end up with someone getting a nagging injury.
The last thing they need right now is someone getting hurt before the games that really matter get started.
Amen, Sammy. Amen.
I just posted on the earlier thread that Girardi said on YES that he didn’t know if Price’s pitch was intentional.
Thomson got it wrong when he said:
“Both Teixeira and Girardi were a bit short in answering the question, but they said the pitch from David Price was NOT intentional. I’ll leave you to draw your own conclusions.”
As I said on the other thread, Pena swung at the pitch that hit his hand, so only a jerk would blame CC. Given the way that they hurt Cervelli in a meaningless 2008 exhibition game, we know that the Rays are in fact jerks, or worse.
Thanks for correcting the record, Sam.
All good points but the issue here is Price’s support of Pena’s HR lead/tie with Tex. Pitching inside to make it tough for Tx to hit/play in these games. Did he want to hit Tex in the head? Likely not. But when you get that aggressive with at this point you better be careful.
There is no doubt that the intent was to protect Pena. That is very risky given the overall picture. In this game where retribution is time honored, there will be a Price to be paid.
BTW, it worked, for the moment.
The legend of Sam Borden begins tonight.
I was at the game last night and I was waiting for someone to nail Longoria, but the situation never allowed it to happen. Considering the chances the Rays had to try and even the score in the last series and didn’t do it, someone needs to get hit tonight. Send Edwar out there and put it right between the numbers on his back.
bush league team.
this perennial bottom-feeder will be back on the bottom before long. Where they belong.
brillian management team you say? Yes. Signing Pat Burrell (when Abreu was available). And trading Edwin Jackson and Scott Kazmir was brilliant. They’re amateurs
The smart thing to do would be have Mark blast one and brush his shoulder off at the Rays dugout while pointing at the scoreboard displaying his 40 Home Runs as he rounds the bases.
“This is what I remember about Joe Torre. With his vengeful nature he made sure that Jeff Nelson was not renewed since Nellie complained to the press. (The kiss of death in the Torre era.) The team was never the same. He pitched Jeff Weaver in a critical spot in an important game in the world series, used Sheffield and Matsui when they hadn’t played most of the season, absolutely wore out the arms of his bullpen so they had nothing left to give, batted Arod in the 8 hole of a playoff game, and let Joba stand out in a field of midges and probably changed the course of that playoff series. Then – and probably most importantly to me – he threw his team under the bus in a Yankee “exposé”
trisha: well stated. And don’t forget the bloody sock game, where he refused to bunt on Schilling because it “wasn’t the way the yankees played”. He should have been let go, at that point
the ‘Kiss of Death’ line, had me imagining scenes from the Godfather. Which i believe, he thinks he is
Torre did become full of himself over time.
From Sam’s lead:
“For those who think so, don’t forget that the Rays – who denied intent – had the rest of a four-game series to exact revenge back in September. And Price, in particular, actually started (and pitched quite well, in fact) the night after Pena got hurt.”
Sam, during that series in New York the Rays were technically still alive for the playoffs. Thats why they didn’t exact revenge.
In my opinon, throwing at Teixeira was a bush league move made by a bush league organization (the Rays). If they didn’t want Tex to hit an HR they could have spent the weekend pitching around him. It absolutely burns me up that so many Florida based Yankee fans patronize the Rays by attending game when the Yankees visit. All that does is provide cash to their bush league owner. I’d like to see Yankee fans stop attending games at the Trop when the Yankees are in town and, instead go watch the Tampa Yankees of the FSL. The best way to hurt the bush league Rays is hurt them in the pocketbook. If we starve their bush league owner then he will have no choice than to starve their bush league players. Let them go bankrupt!!!
vinny- You must not forget that the Rays had a brilliant long-term plan. Lose for 10 straight years, get top picks in the draft, and stockpile talent in the minors. Would you not love a team who lost for a decade to make a World Series run in 1 year. They say planning is everything.
I was at the game last night and I was waiting for someone to nail Longoria..
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I know that you want to watch the Yankees play when they come to town but I wish that you and other Yankee fans would stop patronizing the Rays. They are a bush league organization and don’t deserve your money.
I agree with Sam. There’s plenty of time for payback next season. The Yankees need to be concerned with getting through these next 2 games healthy.
I know that you want to watch the Yankees play when they come to town but I wish that you and other Yankee fans would stop patronizing the Rays. They are a bush league organization and don’t deserve your money.
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This is just silly.
wow soo many updates…lol im liking this..!!!
and i do think the hit was tensional.
Considering the chances the Rays had to try and even the score in the last series and didn’t do it, someone needs to get hit tonight. Send Edwar out there and put it right between the numbers on his back.
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Now isn’t the time to take retribution…we don’t need any players hurt in the fight that would follow. But next season, someone needs to drag a bunt up the first base line and when Price comes over to field it…thats the time to run him down and get into a fight with him.
Until then, it would be good if all Yankee fans would stop attending Rays home games. Hit them where it really hurts…in the pocketbook.
MLB.com’s Noah Coslov reports that J.P. Ricciardi is leaving his position as Blue Jays GM effective immediately. SI.com’s Jon Heyman says that assistant GM Alex Anthopoulos has been promoted, although it’s unclear if it’s just a temporary move.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....to-gm.html
Bye Bye
jpb- Came to Tampa just for the games. I don’t live in Tampa, it was just the closest place with the best ticket prices to see the Yanks.
Plus with the luxury tax and revenue sharing, it doesn’t matter where you go to see them, you’re putting money in all the owners’ pockets.
and i do think the hit was tensional.
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Tensional? without a doubt. It did cause tension.
Intentional? Seems to have been. Hard to prove though.
I know that you want to watch the Yankees play when they come to town but I wish that you and other Yankee fans would stop patronizing the Rays. They are a bush league organization and don’t deserve your money.
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This is just silly.
=======================================================
Not really! Rays fans don’t attend in enough numbers to pay their best players. Why should Yankee fans support them. Maybe an action like that would help their their management realize that baseball is in the business of entertainment…not in fighting a war
Rays did have all series at YS to hit one of the Yankees back BUT sometimes teams wait til they’re home to do it.
Why? I have no idea. The Red Sox are good at that. They’ll start brawls at Fenway but won’t do anything like that on the road.
“The last thing they need right now is someone getting hurt before the games that really matter get started.”
Agreed.
Rookie pitcher gets carried away and goes too far up and in, but he still meant to go up and in. Did Maddon mind? Probably not. The Yankees now have something to think about besides just winning when they play The Rays. How they use that is up to them. They looked shocked last night.
In a way there is something to like about the Rays, a small market upstart team challenging the likes of Boston and New York, trying to remain confident that they belong. The Rays appear to have chosen to be the old school Oakland Raiders. They have maybe enough raw talent to get back to the WS or to at least be WC or Division spoilers next season if they all stay healthy.
How do you play a team that wants to play you physical? Girardi is no dope. It will be addressed at the right time in the right way. But let’s not forget that the best revenge is winning the game, and the division, not getting a TKO.
There isn’t going to be a fight if we hit someone tonight below the shoulders.
And regardless of whether CC hitting Pena was intentional, the Rays needed to protect their guy, which is fine, it’s part of the game. But you settle it in that series if there are games left in it. You don’t let it blow over and then stir things up a few weeks later.
“the ‘Kiss of Death’ line, had me imagining scenes from the Godfather. Which i believe, he thinks he is”
You know vinny, I think you’re right, and further, I believe that he definitely has a dark and venegful side. He sure showed it over the years with players who crossed him!
Doc Halladay will be on the move come late Novemeber / early December……The bean counters are coming in to run the Organization….They’ll be no King’s Ranson demands for the Good Doctor.
jpb- Came to Tampa just for the games. I don’t live in Tampa, it was just the closest place with the best ticket prices to see the Yanks.
Plus with the luxury tax and revenue sharing, it doesn’t matter where you go to see them, you’re putting money in all the owners’ pockets.
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Luxury tax and revenue sharing provide a safety net for the team…they can’t be successful if they don’t get gate receipts.
Hey, I’ve got no problem with teams making money in this business but the team has to accept respionsibility for their players actions. This is the second time the Ray’s have deliberately taken liberties with the health of a Yankee player (the Cervelli injury was the first). If the management of the team isn’t willing to work in a manor thats good for the game then they should feel the economic consequences.
jpb1973,
If you really believe that Yankee fans going to the Trop or not going to the Trop is really going to effect th Rays bottom line to the point that Maddon is forced to change his baseball ideology, then I don’t know what to say.
But going on the road to see the Yanks is a lot of fun.
And for some, it’s their only chance to see the team live.
Let’s not cut off our nose to spite our face. You know what I mean?
PAT M./Nick
5-star. OVER- Wisconsinsin/Minnesota 53.
-dennis
MLB.com’s Noah Coslov reports that J.P. Ricciardi is leaving his position as Blue Jays GM effective immediately. SI.com’s Jon Heyman says that assistant GM Alex Anthopoulos has been promoted, although it’s unclear if it’s just a temporary move.
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I hate to say this but thats a good move for the Blue Jays. JP Ricciardi did a lousy job there. This may lead to them eventually becoming more competiitve on the field.
From SI_JonHeyman: ricciardi should have accepted phillies offer of happ, taylor, carrasco and donald for halladay. jays will get much less
“Wisconsin”
Typing too fast.
-dennis
“I believe that he [Torre] definitely has a dark and venegful side. He sure showed it over the years with players who crossed him!”
Verrrrry true. But that’s also very old school, back from before players were millionaires. Baseball used to be a very different game… Torre was nothing if not old school, maybe not tactically, but certainly in personality.
But let’s not forget that Torre had Old George breathing down his neck and George’s stooges firing at him from all sides. Some of that environment has changed with Cash taking over baseball ops and Hal speaking for ownership, but at the time I think it tended to make Torre extra-dictatorial as to things he could control.
I figured I would present the Prediction Chart information in a different way.
On April 6, 2009, we started a Yankee Wins Prediction Chart.
A total of 53 posters participated. A group within that number were add-ons (July 29th, 2009 and later) but had asterisks beside their names. There were 8 posters who gave predictions July 29th or later.
Of the 53, the following are still in the running:
*TOM B 104
DR. COX 104
TRISHA 103
VSPOT 103
KEVIN IN CT 102
NICK IN SF 102
YANKEESJTJ 102
The Rays are always involved in beanball wars. It is who they are, but hitting Tex in a meaningless October game is just bush.
As for the Torre thread. Torre was a good manager/great leader until he lost Zim by his side and started to believe his own press clippings. Torre is one of the great Yankee managers, but after watching Joe G. manage, it was time for him to go…
“But let’s not forget that Torre had Old George breathing down his neck and George’s stooges firing at him from all sides. Some of that environment has changed with Cash taking over baseball ops and Hal speaking for ownership, but at the time I think it tended to make Torre extra-dictatorial as to things he could control.”
Interesting point.
jpb1973,
If you really believe that Yankee fans going to the Trop or not going to the Trop is really going to effect th Rays bottom line to the point that Maddon is forced to change his baseball ideology, then I don’t know what to say.
But going on the road to see the Yanks is a lot of fun.
And for some, it’s their only chance to see the team live.
Let’s not cut off our nose to spite our face. You know what I mean?
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I think that if Yankee fans skipped the first series or two next season, the Rays managament would get the message. They can’t make it without Yankee fans and Red Sox fans in attendance. Thats 18 home games per year out of 81.
You know if winning and playing with a ship on your shoulder really worked they would have greater attendance without having to rely on Yankee/Red Sox fans to keep them going. The truth of the matter is that, one year after going to the World Series they aren’t even drawing 23,000 per game. So why all the chippiness?
Hey Trisha,
That list has really shrunk. I submitted an original total of wins (97) and updated it last week and still couldn’t make the final list.
ABsolutely – Joe wasn’t going to let his team react. After the Jays game, remember that he was peeved at Posada – and the rest of the team…..and rightly so. The punishment for the Rays will be that they have to go home in two days…….they had a taste of success last year and now they’re going home again. That has to make it worse for them…………good. I admit to being rather nervous now for the rest of these games. I don’t think I’d play my regulars for more than 5 or 6 inning – who knows what the Rays have in store?
A poll:
Remembering all the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the end of 2007, Who still wishes Torre had stayed on a multi-year contract?
What a difference a few seasons make
“I admit to being rather nervous now for the rest of these games. I don’t think I’d play my regulars for more than 5 or 6 inning – who knows what the Rays have in store?”
Paging Mr. Duncan? Mr. Shelly Duncan, please get your brass knuckles and report to the managers office.
Thank’s Dennis-Costanza…….I have Notre Dame & UCLA
Fran, you’re still in the running on that list!
Vin – 104
Noreaster – 104
Fran – 104
Erica – 104
boo this ***** ! i’ve been calling for 104 since spring training
Per Michael Kay (I did not hear this, but I read it on another board), Molina will be catching AJ on Sunday.
Well, we know what that means. Unbelievable – I can’t think of a worse decision.
Tom B – if you didn’t give me your prediction until July 29th or later, that is why you would have had an asterisk. If you gave me it at the beginning and I screwed up, I apologize. Just let me know and I will change it.
If you talked about 104 but didn’t give a prediction until later in the season, that’s why you would have had the asterisk.
“Per Michael Kay (I did not hear this, but I read it on another board), Molina will be catching AJ on Sunday.
Well, we know what that means. Unbelievable – I can’t think of a worse decision.”
Betsy, why would you think of it as a bad decision? I think of it as the bomb (a good bomb that is – he he he).
Hello Betsy, long time no hear. I still love it when you bless us with your thoughts
How come all these loser teams (BAL, TOR, TAM) only pick fights with us? Why don’t they pick fights with the Sux?
Tricia, Sorry I never entered the wins contest…..I just beat 2 to 1 that the Bombers would win 100 games. I also played for a Division Title, AL Pennant and of course the World Championship…..2 DOWN 2 TO GO……A-ROd to 100 rbi’s not looking good however
Why are Sox fans going boycott the Rays if they play aggressively with the Yanks?
Trisha,
Thanks! I forgot what my updated prediction was.
Whether the yankees finish with 102, 103 or 104 wins it has been a hell of a season. Over the next two games, the Yankees need to stay healthy and calm.
The time for retailiation against the Rays is next year, when they are not expecting it, similar to what happened to NY last night with Tex getting nailed.
The real key for the Yankees over the final 2 games of the reg season is to make final decisions on their ALDS roster. I look for Marte, Robertson and Gaudin to get some more time in to give Joe G another look and help him decide.
PAT M.
Are you playing the MN/WI over?
-dennis
Number, I really don’t care what you think of me or my posts. You clearly have a problem ignoring me, which says something about you……and you clearly don’t like anyone disagreeing with anything the Yankees do. Sad.
Trish, I posted that because I thought it was newsworthy…..I suppose it will start the debate again. You know we just disagree on this – we’ve been through this before. AJ had his best stretch of pitching with Po behind the plate……..Molina was nowhere to be found. AJ’s recent bad stretch had nothing to do with Posada, it had to do with his streakiness as a pitcher. Molina was behind the plate when he pitched terribly in Baltimore. Molina can’t hit and Posada is a great hitter. Molina behind the plate and Posada DHing weakens the lineup because Matsui can’t play.
get ready for panda molina in the alds.
AJ has spoken.
1 or 2 games of his bat and not our best clutch hitter Matsui.
Aren’t we fragile enough already?
Betsy, look on the bright side.
Posada is definitely catching A.J. in the World Series because there’s no way Girardi would have 2 batters in the lineup that hit like pitchers.
The Yankees are focused right now on the post season, not the punks in Tropicana.
The Rays have started brawls with the Red Sox and the Yankees. Maddon probably gave Price a bonus for that throw at Teixeira. They are petty and punk enough to look to deliberately try and take out a player.
That pitch was head hunting, and looking to cause post season trouble for the Yankees. Don’t kid yourself that it wasn’t.
Most teams would never dream of doing something like that. Playing the post season bound teams is one thing, looking to take out a player going to the play offs purposely is far over the line. It comes from a team that couldn’t even get people to come to their stadium the year following getting to the WS. They are losers. Sore losers at that.
The Yankees will let it go as the price is too high a risk for this last series of the regular season.
Playing tough and intimidating has its place, but there is a limit to it that should not be crossed. The Rays under Maddon have crossed it.
So damn right
You think Joe wants to take his 5th place hitter out of the lineup in a playoff game?
If he does make this move t pair AJ and Molina, you have to figure there is something going on behind closed doors, maybe something new came up. A manager isn’t going to weaken his team just for the hell of it.
Betsy, I don’t think Joe G has publicly stated whether Molina will be catching AJ or not. I know Cone and Kay were speculating this last night but it is not definitive.
Even if Molina catches AJ it does not necessarily follow suit that Posada will DH. It probably depends on match up but I would think Joe G would make a decision accordingly whether Matsui or Posada is the guy to go with.
BTW; I think it is a bad move for Molina to start as catcher in the playoffs. He is an absolute black hole offensively, a virtual sure out, and IMO if the Yankees starter is pitching his game it doesn’t matter who is behind the plate.
If anything I’d go with Posada catching and if necessary Molina comes in late as a defensive replacement.
You can best believe that if the Rays throw at us again there will be retribution.
for those having to watch the game on Extra Innings last night – the Rays announcers didn’t make things any easier.
When Teixeira was drilled, listen to announcer Kevin Kennedy.
http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/m.....id=6973215
Kennedy starts to chuckle when he mentions this is “the last thing that Joe Girardi wants to see”.
Then Statts and Kennedy (not on video)say they are glad to see the Rays playing “hardball” and “coming to play” when discussing the HBP.
When Teixeira is removed a couple of innings later they chuckle,wondering if MT’s removal is due to injury and say that at least he won’t pass Pena in homers tonight.
Totally classless.
Why does Girardi start Molina at DH when CC is going for #20?
Can anyone answer that?
Yankee21, if Molina catches AJ on Sunday, that’s a sure sign that he is catching him the playoffs…….Jorge and AJ haven’t worked together in awhile, they really need to get sort of re-accquainted behind the plate. LOL If the Yankees go deep into the playoffs, eventually JOrge and AJ will have to work with each other (Pel made a good point, though I’m not thinking that far ahead – we still have to win a couple of series first and that will not be easy), so why not start now? The whole thing makes no sense………
DT, I’m glad I didn’t have to watch that garbage. Kevin Kennedy should know better as a former manager – what an idiot.
You can bet Maddon does not want Tex to catch Pena.
It will be interesting to see what happens the next 2 games. You know Girardi and Tex want that HR.
Hopefully they are not covering up an injury either.
I’ve been thinking of this recently: Let’s say, just for argument’s sake, that we make the world series this year (I know I’m getting ahead of myself), and let’s say we’re facing the phillies, a team with two very tough lefty pitchers. Let’s say we’re facing Hamels or Lee at Citizens Bank Park…
Do you think that Girardi would put Matsui in LF and sit Damon? I know he hasn’t played out there all year and his body might react. But this IS the world series, Matsui hits lefties better than most other lefties in baseball, and Johnny looks overmatched against these guys. Since it could be Matsui’s final games in pinstripes your’re not ruining his future or anything… I think it has to at least be considered. what you you all think?
He did it on purpose
” I loved him as manager of the Yankees, but felt it was time for a parting of the ways.”
doreen-
i totally agree it was time for a new manager, but i would have liked to keep torre in the yankee organization. losing a good baseball guy like torre doesn’t make an organization stronger, but maybe he still wanted to manage so he wouldn’t have taken another position. he’s certainly continued his success with the dodgers.
i will restate the simple truth that jeter, posada, rivera, and pettite love the guy and know as much about his dark side( and we all have one right) as anyone.
anyone trying to make torre out to be a yankee bad guy is going against the beliefs of the above players.
someone has that right, but let them know that their thoughts are in opposition to these players.
Bets, I totally disagree that he had his best stretch with Posada. Someone gave all the stats one day (I know, what do stats prove…) and it is unequivocal that he has more Ks when Molina is catching, plus his ERA is definitely lower.
“AJ’s recent bad stretch had nothing to do with Posada, it had to do with his streakiness as a pitcher.”
While there is no way you have any proof of this, one thing you fail to recognize is that people who like Molina catching him keep trying to point out that it could be totally AJ’s comfort level and nothing that Posada is doing right or wrong. Try turning this into something more benign and it’s easier to look at objectively.
That said, I don’t particularly care who catches AJ as long as we win the games.
And has been pointed out continuously, Girardi knows more than all of us put together. If he has Molina behind the dish it’s because he sees good reason for it. If he sees fit for Molina to catch in the postseason, it’s because he knows what he’s doing. If he sees fit for only Jorge catch in the postseason it’s because he knows what he’s doing.
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If people can start to realize that Girardi is a better manager than anyone posting on lohud, they will be able to sit back and enjoy the show rather than kvetch (right word?) over every damned decision with which they disagree!
Yea. Great thought BFARBS. He will certainly put a guy in LF who has played ZERO innings there this year. In the playoffs no less. Great call.
Trisha
Are you serious?
Kvetch?
We have every right to voice our opinions on each and every move they make.
This is not a minor move either.
If Stats and Kennedy really chucklee that Tex’ removal may have been due to injury and that is good because he won’t pass Pena tonight then they they are absolute pieces of s. I’d like to see the Yankees call them on it,probably not possible though…
Isn’t Kennedy the ex manager bum who is on XM? Maybe Joe G can call into his show after the season and call him on his comments.
Interesting that Kennedy’s name never comes up as manager candidates.
Maddon and the Rays really care about Pena tying for the lead in HRs? How pathetic is that? How about he get his team to play with integrity instead of focusing so badly on individual goals that his team goes out there with the intent to injure someone?
Mick – voicing an opinion is one thing. Pretending/assuming that your opinion makes more sense than the decision of the manager is ludicrous.
JMO
If AJ is pulling this stunt, at this moment, he is only drawing attention to himself and you know how he reacts when everyone is watching. The dude is the poster-boy for implosion. If he insists on Molina and goes 2 games, which could also be a major mistake, and we lose this series , there will be no end to the malaise we are in.
And make no mistake about it, we are in a malaise. We have been eliminated in every post season series since 2000.
Dennis-Coostanza….I’m all over your overs….
Betsy
I disagree with your premise that if Molina catches AJ on Sunday it is a sure sign…
It is a sign not necessarily a sure sign, perhaps Girardi wants MIN or DET to think this, or perhaps he wants to give Molina some AB in case he decides Molina will play.
I really don’t know what Joe G is doing half the time, but as long as Joe G knows, and the Yankees win, its good enough for me.
Mick, by the way I am not saying you do any of those things. That was a generic statement.
Maybe Joe asked AJ last week who he wanted to throw to and he said Molina. How do we know?
Do you really believe Joe wants to start a .215 hitting catcher over the 2nd best catcher in baseball, if there isn’t a legit reason to?
trisha
if the mgr changes his philosophy because a player throws a hissy fit then the decision of the mgr is ludicrous.
I still think Cervelli is better than Molina right now. But he’s not going to be on the roster. I don’t see anything Molina does that’s so much better then Cervelli.
Burnett had good games with Cervelli catching him too. but it won’t matter since Molina (automatic out) will catch him.
“if the mgr changes his philosophy because a player throws a hissy fit then the decision of the mgr is ludicrous.”
Likely so. But since Girardi is a manager who has gotten the Yankees to 100+ wins in his second season I have to believe that hissy fits aren’t what drive his decisions.
matt
if girardi starts catering to his players now it is a bad sign.
Mick, why are you assuming this is on AJ? AJ also is the one, per Kay, who asked for Jorge to remain behind the plate for his starts. Joe is the one who makes the final decisions on the team – not the players.
Yankee21, Molina has had more than enough plate appearances. It would be more important for AJ/Jorge to familiarize themselves again than it would be to give teams something to think about…..or give Molina more at bats.
I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
trisha
i agree with you but why would molina catch aj on sunday?
if aj comes up big, you know he will catch him in the alds.
Posada and Matsui must be in the lineup each and every game or they will lose this series.
This is no time to experiment.
That Miranda has a sweet stroke. This kid has a swing made for Yankee stadium. I wouldn’t be surprised if the team finds a spot for him in the outfield next year. He’s listed as an 1st baseman/leftfielder in Yahoo Sports.
“for those having to watch the game on Extra Innings last night – the Rays announcers didn’t make things any easier.
When Teixeira was drilled, listen to announcer Kevin Kennedy.
http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/m…..id=6973215
Kennedy starts to chuckle when he mentions this is “the last thing that Joe Girardi wants to see”.
Then Statts and Kennedy (not on video)say they are glad to see the Rays playing “hardball” and “coming to play” when discussing the HBP.
When Teixeira is removed a couple of innings later they chuckle,wondering if MT’s removal is due to injury and say that at least he won’t pass Pena in homers tonight”
unreal.
believe it or not, i used to enjoy the Tampa Rays announcing team. Joel McGraine (who would not have made these comments) used to take a few good-natured shots at the Yankees when announcing the Tampa/NYY games. However, it was just that, good-natured ribbing. And he was very funny.
Kevin Kennedy? He is the one on FOX having the ‘David Letterman-like affair’ with Genie Zelasko behind closed doors. (just kidding, i wouldn’t wish that one anyone)
Betsy, lets’ agree to let the Molina AJ thing go, whatever the h happens, happens.
Just play the next two games, stay healthy, and gear up for October baseball.
Whatever Joe G decides on the roster, he’ had ample time to do the analysis to make his choices, so we’ll just have to see where the chips fall.
“I still think Cervelli is better than Molina right now. But he’s not going to be on the roster. I don’t see anything Molina does that’s so much better then Cervelli.
Burnett had good games with Cervelli catching him too. but it won’t matter since Molina (automatic out) will catch him.”
I would love to see Cervelli on the roster. I’m not sure he won’t be there. Why do you think he won’t be there?
Torre let players have personal catchers… what is wrong with Girardi doing so?
Didn’t we start Flash in game 3 of the 05 ALDS?
Tidrow,, Miranda is a first baseman by trade, as far as I know he hasn’t played much in the OF, anywhere.
He is also by reputation an average to below avg first baseman.
I agree Miranda does have a good stroke, but I don’t think the Yankees have a place for him, he’ll be part of an off-season trade package IMO.
If Molina is now AJs personal catcher, Cervelli had better be on the roster.
Remember it was Maddon who picked his own player to come to the All Star game… Pena. Despite other players at that time in particular being far better.
Maddon is a tool. He and his dyed hair will be gone in another year or two.
Betsy, it’s just that your analysis is so good, I think it’s so well thought out that I admire how you come your conclusions. I was really paying my respects to you, not diminishing your brain’s power of enlightenment.
I just typed a great post and it got eaten up!!!
Oh, well. Bottom line is, 102 wins under his belt gives Girardi the benefit of the doubt, as far as I’m concerned. If AJ is more comfortable with Molina, it gives him a psychological advantage, and any advantage is a good one. If AJ is effective, fewer runs are needed, no? Plus, Molina can be pinch-hit for if necessary and Matsui has proved to be effective as a pinch-hitter. They have won a few games with Molina in the lineup, true?
randy l -
It would have been better if the end of the run had been planned and handled better. But I think Torre was just as tired of the Yankees at that point, perhaps more so, than they were of him. You never know what could happen going forward. Time is a great buffer (I won’t say healer, because no matter what, no one EVER forgets).
No manager is perfect, no manager makes great decisions. But I do think that it’s easy to forget that for most of Joe’s tenure the biggest part of his job was to keep things on an even keel – meaning – tame the beast that was Steinbrenner, or at least keep him at bay, and he was super-successful in that regard. Players we respect respected Torre. That says a lot.
It was, however, getting painful every time the Yankees got off to a slow start or failed in the playoffs, to deal with the “Joe Torre’s job watch.”
God help us if we lose game 1 with CC on the mound
For game 2 we have Jekyll and Hyde Burnett AND Molina in the lineup?
**no manager makes great decisions all the time, is what I meant to say.
scott
if aj insists on molina he might only get 1 game, game 3.
that would also be a mistake as andy has been better on the road.
By the way, I missed where AJ has insisted on Molina catching him. Was this written anywhere, or is it speculation?
If he does pair Molina and AJ he is doing it to HELP AJ and probably did so with AJ’s input as well.
Girardi has communicated great with the players this year, I would bet he has done his due diligence.
Yankee21, no problem – we’ll debate when the decision is made, lol.
I’ve always been for Cervelli on the roster – mostly in case Po or Molina get hurt. If one of them does, then who is the backup catcher?
Why would Yahoo Sports have his name on the list of leftfielders if he’s never played it? I haven’t heard of him playing outfield either but could he be any worse than Swisher? (just kidding)
joe does not get the benefit of the doubt because he won 102 games. if he won 99 would he get benefit? he has never managed under the pressure of post-season. let’s see if we are this cavalier if we lose another series. we have a lot to prove, we haven’t won in 9 years, we now have a reputation as being chokers, as the redsox once had. this is major.
Doreen, we have no idea if AJ is more comfortable with Molina – people just assume he is, for some reason.
Doreen,
Girardi was non-committal when asked about if he was going to pair AJ and Molina yesterday. He also said that Molina will catch on Sunday (AJ’s scheduled day) and he wants to get him ABs because “he’s going to play a role in the postseason”.
I’d say it is informed speculation at this point. Certainly not baseless.
Also, why bother having a board or a blog if we can’t debate what managers/GMs/teams do? We could say that every manager/GM/team must know more than we do, so let’s not disagree with anything they decide. That’s silly………..
Miranda is the he i’m referring to.
Doreen, Mick is speculating……..there is not once shred of proof that AJ has insisted on anything.
One, not once
Betsy, I “think” now they can still make moves if a player is lost during the playoffs. I believe they lose him for the next round though. For example, Posada gets hurt in game 2 of the ALDS, then they can replace him HOFer Cervilli, but Posada isn’t eligible for the ALCS. I believe that’s how it works.
If I’m right, then the score on being right between you and me is:
Betsy 1,000,000,000,000
Me 1
*wink*wink
The offense has been sluggish the last week or so with the regulars in and we’re facing 3 good power pitchers next week.
It makes no sense to weaken our lineup. Especially when we’re struggled offensively in the postseason as it is.
New post please..
Betsy, it’s just that your analysis is so good, I think it’s so well thought out that I admire how you come your conclusions. I was really paying my respects to you, not diminishing your brain’s power of enlightenment
lol
“If people can start to realize that Girardi is a better manager than anyone posting on lohud, they will be able to sit back and enjoy the show rather than kvetch (right word?) over every damned decision with which they disagree!”
trisha-
are you demented ?
no one i can think of on this site has gone against what girardi believes as far as who should catch as you.
girardi has put posada in as much as possible this year which is in opposition to your beliefs that cervelli and molina should catch more.
your beliefs are in almost total opposition to girardi’s .
that said, i wouldn’t be opposed to molina catching burnett if on any particular day, in his gut, girardi thinks it’s the right thing to do.
Yank1 -
Not meaning to insinuate it was baseless, just wanted to know if it was speculative or if something was actually written somewhere.
mick -
Girardi does get some benefit of the doubt for knowing his players and for using them very well this season to the tune of more wins than was absolutely necessary to win their division. 102 is just really nice. 99 would have been okay, too.
I do think it is “big” though if Girardi chooses for Molina to catch AJ, because all along most people were assuming that Posada would catch every game because no way would Girardi “compromise” the lineup. Not good, not bad, just a big decision – or rather, unexpected.
Off to buy some hair color. This stuff is bringing in the grays at a rapid pace.
To not have Matsuis lefty bat in the lineup in game 2 at home would be ludicrous especially since damon has lost his power.
This would also lead me to believe AJ could go game 3.
Both are mistakes as AJ should go at home. Andy on road.
Tidrow,
Miranda is not capable of playing YS left field. They could attempt to hide him in right from time to time, but I don’t buy that he because can’t technically play a position, so he should be sent packing.
He has great power – the swing wasn’t an anomaly, what you saw is what we’d get.
He can surely be a DH/PH/1B swing man. If I’m the Yankees, I make a point of keeping that bat around. I’m not an advocate of putting a statue in the OF because of his bat, but I think we can find creative ways to get Miranda into the lineup without forsaking our OF defense.
There’s no proof that AJ did ask for Molina, and there is no proof that he DIDN’T ask for Molina.
Bottom line – none of us know anything. There are plenty of discussions that the media (or Michael Kay) are not privy too. It makes no sense to rule anything out. How do we know AJ didn’t ask for Molina? How do we know he did?
Trust what Girardi does because he is the one dealing with these players and he knows things that we don’t. If you think that Girardi is crazy for making this move, then you are assuming that Girardi is purposely weakening his team with no reason at all. Just because the media doesn’t get wind of a problem, doesn’t mean there isn’t one. As others have said, why would Girardi want to weaken his lineup if he didn’t have a tangible reason to do so?
If the Yankees are so concerned with Posada’s game calling with AJ on the mound then call the game from the bench. Simple as that.
To take one of your best bats out of the lineup, the guy who has been behind the plate all season for a 102 win team, in favor of an automatic GIDP or K is just plain stupidity. We all saw last year what happens to this team with Molina behind the plate.
I still can not believe that this argument is going on about how this team could possibly be better with Molina catching. He is one of the worst hitters in baseball and his defense does not make that much of a difference in the outcome of the game.
Oh and by the way Posada is throwing out 29% of base stealers this year. Molina… 28%.
Trisha,
I know how much Twins fans hate the Yankees, and found the ones who invaded another forum I participate in during the whole Santana thing very self-righteous and antagonizing.
They griped about how we were going to “steal” Santana from them – and many of us countered that we did not particularly want Santana, and certainly not if Hughes was to be in the package.
They of course demeaned Hughes and our entire minor-league system, without knowing anything about it.
Of course, their cries of outrage and woe about Santana should have been aimed at the correct target – Twins ownership. they get on their moral high horse about the Steinbrenners, but it’s their late billionaire owner who drove his managers nuts with his stingy payroll.
No – I’m not soft-hearted about the little Cinderella Twins. I’m tired of the whole underdog story that’s played ad nauseum solely to undermine the Yankees and soothe those jealous hearts out there.
Whoever we play – I won’t shed any tears for.
as far as retaliation for teixeira getting hit, of course it’d be silly to do anything about it now .
the rays made their point maybe about pena getting hit and hurt. ok, it’s over.
walk away and focus on the bigger picture.
if the yankees feel like maddon is making a habit of over aggressiveness against the yankees, i’m all for girardi just telling him right to his face next spring that it’s going to stop or maddon is going to get his butt kicked ( joe could do it) or one of his players is going to get hurt.
joe won’t do that of course, but maddon does seem a little too full of himself so next spring something may need to be done to give maddon a reason to back off .
but now ? no way.
the yankees have other things on their mind.
“are you demented ?
no one i can think of on this site has gone against what girardi believes as far as who should catch as you.
girardi has put posada in as much as possible this year which is in opposition to your beliefs that cervelli and molina should catch more.
your beliefs are in almost total opposition to girardi’s .”
Except that Girardi did have Molina catch more and Cervelli was in AAA where he couldn’t possibly catch the Yankees.
See ya now.
I make it a point never to respond to your posts but this one I just couldn’t help. I will now go back to my sound policy of ignoring your drivel at least in terms of any baiting aspect.
Career vs. Edwin Jackson -
Molina – 1-9
Posada 3-10, double, 2 walks
Matsui – 7-23, triple, HR, 3 RBIs, 3 walks
Yeah… let’s have Molina’s bat in there!!!!!
mick,
I seriously doubt that AJ beat out CC arm-wrestling for Molina.
I kid. I kid.
Betsy,
Think about it. Why the about face on Posada by the organization? Why has he been not catching so much lately? Do you think there’s something we don’t know about? Like an injury that’s worse than they’re telling us?
As for Torre, I don’t think about him too much. Loving the one we’re with. But I do find it funny that the Dodgers still haven’t clinched. Lucky thing they clinched a playoff berth because it looks like the Rockies aren’t simply satisfied with getting in. And really, why should they? It’s a difference of starting at home in the first round or not having any HFA at all during the playoffs.
“Trust what Girardi does because he is the one dealing with these players and he knows things that we don’t.”
Gates, I’m with you. I’ll leave it to others to worry about things over which they have no control or say. Girardi has more than proven his managerial ability to me, so I’m good with whoever ends up on the field, at bat, etc.
“For those who think so, don’t forget that the Rays – who denied intent – had the rest of a four-game series to exact revenge back in September. And Price, in particular, actually started (and pitched quite well, in fact) the night after Pena got hurt.”
On its surface, this makes sense, until you remember that baseball retaliations rarely make sense. The Blue Jays waited @ two months and did nothing during a full series at YS after the Arod “Ha” play. Then all of a sudden, at home, Josh Towers throws at Arod, and the Jays were all fired up like Arod had done something 5 minutes ago. Yet, they were docile as lambs during the YS series a few weeks earlier.
The Mets waited at least a year, maybe two, before their feeble attempt at payback to Clemens. That may have been their first chance facing him since the Piazza incident, but it was still pretty impotent.
Maybe the Rays were thinking that if something happened, their fan could come on the field and help.
I would give you all the Tampa perspective, but I don’t think anybody here realizes the Rays are still playing actual games.
Tidrow,
I agree that Miranda has a good swing, but that is about all he brings to the table right now, he is just not regarded as a good fielding 1B and until this year, he also had a lot of trouble hitting LHP. So his skill set is limited.
IMO he’s part of a trade package over the winter. Unless, and this is a big unless, the Yankees unload Swisher, their only creditable 1B backup, which would be even more surprising.
I think the organization has sent the message in many ways this year that they are okay with people having a different opinion and style than the “old guard” way.
From ST with the pool tournament and allowing clubhouse music, CC and AJ making the starting pitchers a team within the team, Mariano encouraging AJ to be the pie-man, kangaroo court and even the subtlety of CC, Tex and Alex being chosen to be the spokesmen for Hope Week instead of any of the “old guard”.
Appreciating history is a good thing but getting stuck in the past means you never move forward.
Cashman and Girardi have moved this team forward this year in ways Torre wouldn’t have.
For all the talk about how Torre may not have been the best in-game manager but he could manage personalities, Girardi has done a pretty effective job of both of those things this year and the clubhouse at least appears to be a better place for the team and not just some members of it.
Torre was the right man for the job at that time but his time in NY had passed.
Okay, to alleviate everyone’s concerns about Molina’s bat, let’s just sneak Benjie to the plate for his at-bats.
yankee21,
You might want to look at the stats before condeming Miranda vs. LHP.
He hit .289/.364 and slugged over .500 vs. LHP in 135 ABs. Of his 19 HR, 6 came against lefties, and he had less than half of the ABs he had vs. righties.
He hit .290/.371 vs. righties, with a slightly lower slugging percentage.
If you’ve watched Miranda, you’d know he brings more than a good swing. He’s a legitmate lefty power hitter and he can drive the ball to all fields.
Miranda is a suspect defender, but his bat is for real, and unlike quadruple A guys like Shelley Duncan, Miranda hits all kinds of pitches.
“IMO he’s part of a trade package over the winter.”
Could be, though your description of him explains why his value would be pretty low. He’s not a starting MLB 1B, even on a bad team. He could be a piece of a trade, but certainly not a centerpiece (which is precisely what you implied…I think).
“For all the talk about how Torre may not have been the best in-game manager but he could manage personalities, Girardi has done a pretty effective job of both of those things this year and the clubhouse at least appears to be a better place for the team and not just some members of it”
all the more reason Girardi should be AL Manager of the year. I hope the posters on this site don’t make the mistake of taking him for granted
Minnesota picking up a game yesterday was huge. It allows them to lose to Greinke, yet still have a horse in the race.
bod, I said until this year, Miranda did not hit LHP well. I agree this year, no problem. I also didn’t condemn him.
October 3rd, and this whole catching nonsense will not go away……If AJ Burnett was to push for a personal caddy, it would make him look like a chump diva, and would go along way to isolate him from the core group considering this is Jorge Posada as well……This is Giradi’s call, and I don’t see Burnett as this type of player anymore……On the brink of the October run, and this catchers stuff still occupies space and time…….
“I still can not believe that this argument is going on about how this team could possibly be better with Molina catching.”
it’s probably going to go on right through the playoffs.
girardi is going to have to make a decision each game on who plays to win that game. there are a lot of factors that could make him decide on molina for one game.
in molina’s defense,i think molina is actually a pretty good situational hitter though i’m just going by my memory and haven’t looked up the stats.
this shouldn’t be a posada against molina thing. they’re both teammates and the yankees need both. i like posada, and i like molina.
posada is the starter and molina the back up. they make a great catching duo in these roles.
how girardi uses them with burnett is anyone’s guess at this point. so it’s going to be discussed.
whatever girardi decides, if there’s a loss, it’s really going to get talked about.
but that’s baseball. so what. isn’t that part of the fun?
“Minnesota picking up a game yesterday was huge. It allows them to lose to Greinke, yet still have a horse in the race.”
If they lose to Grienke and the Tigers beat Freddy Garcia, then the race is over. Twins aren’t allowed to lose to anyone at this point.
I like the Twins… scrappy, gritty. No Superstars…. just hard working blue coller players. No brand name pitchers, just solid effective guys who get it done. A low budget, small market team that can’t compete with the big guns, yet always find their way north of .500. great ownership, great manager, always make smart trades and shuffle their roster year in and year out, yet are always a good team.
Other small market teams like PIT and KC should take a page from their book.
Minnesota picking up a game yesterday was huge. It allows them to lose to Greinke, yet still have a horse in the race.”
m,
Not necessarily. If they lose to Greinke, and Detroit wins, the race is over. Best case is, of course, to have a tie, Verlander has to pitch tomorrow, and Jackson would have to start their 1 game playoff. In addition, if there is a tie, that play-in game would take place on Tuesday instead of Monday because of the MNF game in Minnesota.
vinny B
Joe G as manager of the year? It will never happen, it will either go to the Ron Washington of TEX, Gardenhire of MIN or Scioscia of LAA.
Joe G will finish 3rd at best. The MSM media will never give him any credit, much more likely to sight the payroll advantage.
BTW: The results are good for Joe G, but he makes a lot of decisions that lead me scratching my head. I think he is a good mgr,, not a great one, at this point. However, if he makes sound decisions in the PS, he’ll have upped his cred, at least IMHO.
Josey has a WS ring from 2002 and comes from the Mike Socseita school of fundamentals.
Don’t sell him short in the postseason. He may not hit HRs, but he will do little things to win ball games.
“I like the Twins… scrappy, gritty. No Superstars…. just hard working blue coller players. No brand name pitchers, just solid effective guys who get it done. A low budget, small market team that can’t compete with the big guns, yet always find their way north of .500. great ownership, great manager, always make smart trades and shuffle their roster year in and year out, yet are always a good team”
and yet Bud Selig wanted to CONTRACT them. The Brewers would have been a better choice
Thanks, guys.
“I like the Twins… scrappy, gritty. No Superstars…. just hard working blue coller players.”
Mauer? Morneau? Perennial allstar Joe Nathan? This team has had some star power. Not Yankees star power, but still. Let’s not forget that the Twins haven’t seen the playoffs since their #1 starter was one Johann Santana. Gritty is nice, but the Twins have had some legit guys.
Jose Molina also had as grand total of 1 AB in that 2002 WS run. He has 8 playoff ABs overall in 3 playoff runs.
Maybe Molina is catching AJ on Sunday so that Posada can manage for the day…?
Seems like a good candidate for it.
“Best case is, of course, to have a tie, Verlander has to pitch tomorrow, and Jackson would have to start their 1 game playoff.”
I think Porcello would get the playoff game. Jackson has been shaky and Tuesday would be only 3 days rest for him. Porcello has posted a 3.22 ERA in September. I think he’s the guy for the Tigers if it comes to a play in game.
pat m-
i wouldn’t be shocked if girardi on a hunch goes with molina with burnett for any particular game .
but his thinking if he does will have little to nothing to do with the posada truther reasoning that clogged up the blog for most of the summer.
managers go with their gut sometimes.
i don’t find him doing this as a bad thing nor do i think discussion about it as a bad thing.
i remember earlier this summer you, gb7, and i had a talk about the 1960 pirates /yankee world series . i remember noticing berra caught a couple of games. elston howard caught a few, and blanchard caught a few.
it’s nothing new for a manager to use multiple catchers. of course, i’m not telling you anything you don’t already know.
Rex,
Either way, it would mean that their 2nd best pitcher gets burned as well as their top guy. If the Tigers clinch today, however, Verlander rests tomorrow, and they get their rotation set up.
Mark:
True. Though if it comes down to a playoff and they win with Porcello, I believe the only difference will be Jackson and Verlander switch spots, with Jackson the Game 1 starter and Verlander the Game 2 guy, all on more than normal rest. Unless, of course, the Yankees smell blood and decide on the other series.
Another thing to consider is that Verlander is at 232 innings right now, with Sundays start still to come. That means he will make the playoff start having thrown 240 innings already. That is 39 more than he has ever thrown. By contrast CC is at 230 right now, but he will not throw again until the playoffs, obviously. Besides that, this is less innings by 15-20 than what he had going into the PS the last 2 years.
As per a commenter from nesn.com.
“This year would have been Damon’s fourth year,that Theo didn’t want to give him.Hopefully he learned from his mistake.”
They are lamenting Jayson Bay’s becoming a free agent,and Theo
not acting during the season WITH AN EXTENSION,to prevent him from coming to the Yankees.Bwahahah,they still miss Johnny!!
Man I luv it when they’re worried about losing a player to the Yankees.Bay’s #’s and Tex’s are very close.
As far as Toronto is concerned,Ken Rosenthal’s article(on mlbtraderumors.com),cited a mutiny against Cito Gaston in the club house.Look for him to be replaced too.
yankee21
October 3rd, 2009 at 12:55 pm
bod, I said until this year, Miranda did not hit LHP well. I agree this year, no problem. I also didn’t condemn him.
====
Condemn meaning write him off.
Sorry if you found the term offensive.
The adjustment to hitting LHP is testament to how adaptable Miranda is. His is a serious bat.
“I like the Twins… scrappy, gritty. No Superstars…. just hard working blue coller players.”
So Mauer and Morneau are just marginal players? Likely MVP and an MVP of a few years ago, and they are just blue collar players. Right. Gotcha.
If AJ feel comfortable with Molina.That’s ok to let Molina catch the ball.While Posoda is a good hitter,it’s more important to help a pitcher can pitch solid in the playoffs especilly than anything.In the playoffs Pitchers usually influence the game win or loss.If the pitcher and catcher can’t cooperate well,the game will be going to loss,and I don’t think just one hitter has the power to turn the tide at that time.Think about Lester,Becktte and Valander,they are so sharp,and we should do anything that it can help our pitchers and hitters.
“The adjustment to hitting LHP is testament to how adaptable Miranda is. His is a serious bat.”
Not at this level. We are not talking another K. Morales.
Pena said he told his pitchers not to let Tex pass him in the HR race (Both have 39), so it’s pretty clear Price was head hunting.