Is Yankee-Twin dominance historic?
Posted by: Josh Thomson - Posted in Misc on Oct 09, 2009 
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This is a question better left for Elias Sports Bureau and its fancy computer programmers. The answer would require days of skimming through BaseballReference.com and may drive a man (or woman) crazy. But riddle me this:
Has any team in baseball history been swept in a head-to-head season series three times in the same decade during seasons when it WON its division?
Think about it. Theoretically, these are 85, 90, 95, 100-win teams. Impossible, right? Right?
Wrong. The Yankees swept the AL-Central champ Twins in 2002, 2003 and, of course, in 2009. Minnesota even won 94 games in 2002 and found itself swept that year by the Yanks. It seems remarkable to imagine a 94-win team unable to pick off one lousy victory. So twice more in the next seven years, too?
The Yankee dominance has been stark and not just a figment of some old baseball man’s imagination (like the “scrappy, base-to-base” 2009 Angels, whose 883 runs are the second-most in baseball). Including the consecutive 3-1 losses in the 2003-04 Division Series, the Twins are just 52-100 vs. the Yanks in the regular season and playoffs since Minnesota’s stopped beating them repeatedly in 1992. From ’93 on, the Twins won their season series against the Bombers once, in 2001, but failed to do so in the eight seasons before or the eight since.
As you may’ve heard in the post of Twins audio, talk focused on the lopsidedness. Jason Kubel and Denard Span seemed to downplay it, but you can’t blame 52-100 on being one or two “clutch” hits away. It’s real.
October 9th, 2009 at 10:32 am
trisha – OPPC lifetime member who trusts Joe Girardi
October 8th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
MG, if I misinterpreted your post I apologize. I have never seen you be critical of players. If I beat it into the ground it’s because I felt there was something to it that needed to be addressed. Yanks were losing a lot of games with Posada behind the plate and there was cause for concern IMO
——————————–
Trisha, I just saw this and your logic and facts are so misguided I needed to respond:
1. AJ’s best stretch with the Yankees this year was from the end of May through the end of July- 11 starts, 8-2, 2.1 ERA. The catcher in 8 of those games was Jorge Posada. Molina caught none of them, he was on the DL.
2. Molina started 42 games for the Yankees this year (I went back and checked the game logs). The Yankees record in those games? 23-19. That means the Yankees record in games started by everyone else was 80-40, significantly better. It also directly refutes your contention that ‘the Yankees were losing lots of games with Posada catching’.
3. The Yankees record in games caught by Posada is 64-34 (I might have missed a couple adding it up), that’s better than their team record.
Girardi is making a gut instinct call here because he’s afraid to switch off Molina after Jose catching AJ the last 6 starts. I think he made a mistake, as does Randy, by not fixing this before the end of the season but I’ll be rooting just as hard for the Yankees tonight as any other game. But, please, let’s deal with facts, not emotions about this decision. The Yankees record with Posada behind the plate is far better than with any other catcher, in particular Jose Molina. You are entitled to your opinion about the relative merits of Jose v Jorge but they are not supported by any team statistic.
7 hours and 7 minutes until Game 2!!!!!!!!
Erica-
9 hours and 7 minutes until my boy comes home for the long weekend
What?!?!
The Yankees didn’t play the Twins in 2002, they were beaten by the Angels. They did beat them in ’03 and ’04, but those were 3-1. Santana won game 1 both years, then the Yanks took the next 3, beating Santana in game 4 both times.
My fault, I think you meant swept the entire regular season series. Sorry!
upstate kate
October 9th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Erica-
9 hours and 7 minutes until my boy comes home for the long weekend
****
Awww.. is this his first trip home? You must be so happy!!! Will he sit on the couch and watch the game with you like a good boy? LOL
MG – thanks for your response but YOUR logic and facts are misguided. I was talking about one period of time in the season when the Yankees went 12 and 23 and Posada caught the majority of those games. They had been on quite a roll right before that. Okey dokey? Nobody mentioned the entire season. But YOU did mention that I had been all over Posada (my words.) Yes indeed, and I just told you why.
NOW PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE WITH ALL OF THIS! I am hardly the only one here who still prefers Molina with AJ. As “right” as you think you guys have it, “we” think we have it equally right. And we also have some pretty sharp former players (catchers included) who think we have it right.
“But, please, let’s deal with facts, not emotions about this decision.”
Uh, yeah, MG, please lets.
It’s real, but didn’t we win sweep the series in NY this year on a series of walk-offs? Absent a couple of clutch hits in those games, there would not have been a sweep.
But that is why I am so loving the Yankees this year – they don’t give up, they continue to fight, and really and truly the game is not done until the proverbial fat lady sings.
7 hours and 6 minutes to game time! Got my ticket and can’t wait!
“You are entitled to your opinion about the relative merits of Jose v Jorge but they are not supported by any team statistic.”
Well duh they are well supported by the numbers of runs, hits, Ks, ERA, HR, CS, and everything else in the stats between Posada catching AJ and Molina catching AJ this year.
It’s funny, Varitek was scheduled to catch Beckett today. And then the Sox lost game 1 and now Martinez is catching him. I wonder why??
And duh again, we are NOT talking the merits of Posada v Molina, we are talking the merits of Molina catching AJ. Or haven’t you been around lately? Or did you somehow dream that I said that Molina should replace Posada for good?
When did the yankees go 12-23? Did we have that bad of a stretch? Doesn’t seem like it! ( which I guess is a good thing right?)
Yankees went 12 and 23 when Posada started catching again in May.
Posada isn’t even in the top 3 on his team for MVP. Next year when they dump Matsui so Jorge can be eased into the DH role, we will see how invaluable he is.
Erica-
It is his first trip home. He assures me he hasn’t gained the “freshman 15″. He will probably watch a little of the game w/ me and then go see friends. He is a definite Yankee fan, but not the baseball fan I am.
countryclub
watch for LA to run all over them today.
Trisha, your facts about the Yankees results are so way off I can’t deal with it. If the Yankees had gone 12-23 with Posada earlier in the season (they didn’t) and his overall record was 64-34 then he’s been lights out since then, something on the order of 52-11.
You have posted the Posada/Molina stuff for the entire season, not just since your imagined 12-23 stretch. You have probably posted at least 100X more than I have about this subject for the season.
This is my last post on this subject and I won’t even dare to look at another game log on this blog, it is just too painful reading all the stupidity that flows whenever any Yankee does ‘something wrong’ or a pitcher walks someone. The chorus has won, enjoy it.
upstate kate
October 9th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Erica-
It is his first trip home. He assures me he hasn’t gained the “freshman 15?. He will probably watch a little of the game w/ me and then go see friends. He is a definite Yankee fan, but not the baseball fan I am.
****
Aww, well I hope you have a wonderful time with your son this weekend. I also hope he brings the Yankees lots of luck!
MG
don’t let the trolls get you down.
keep the faith brother.
Just be glad that we do not have to debate the merits of starting a catcher who throws out 13% of the runners vs. the other won who gets 14%, like the red sox are doing.
I would downplay it as well…history has little bearing on the present (unless that’s recent history)…I really doubt that the Twins’ performance v the Yankees from 1993-2008 are any indication of how they will perform against the Yankees in the playoffs now. Of course, how the Twins have done against the Yanks this year DOES have some bearing on the series as it directly relates to each teams’ current players/skill level/etc…although as the Tigers have proven against the Yankees recently, regular season records can go out the window once October comes…
The instances where I can see long term history having more of an effect are with curses, like the one formerly placed on the BoSox and the one currently on the Cubs. I don’t believe either team was/is actually cursed; however, the media and fan circus around those things IMO can influence the players and whether or not they play loose or tight…if you have the weight of an organizations “cursed” history on your shoulders, I would imagine that only adds to the huge amount of pressure that comes with the playoffs to begin with.
I am just sick and tired of being misquoted, attacked for things I didn’t ever say, having people decide what I am REALLY meaning – despite what I have said, and having every freakin point I make twisted and misinterpreted.
I have had posters go back and take something I said months and months ago without having ever read things since then and still say try to pretend that my points are the same. And they want me to defend that one thing, when other things may have come since then that caused me to change my view.
NYY626 this has nothing to do with you. I was actually having a good day until I came on and saw that (what I consider to be) arrogant post from MG, totally misinterpreting and misstating my position. I am really tired of it.
***************************
Okay, now that I’ve gotten that out of my system.
Does anyone know whether all of the ALCS games are night games? Is there any way I can find that out?
let tito pull veritek and lose the series.
i think we are going to win ours.
in the end, the 2 best teams in the AL will play in the ALCS.
“This is my last post on this subject”
Thank you sweet Jesus.
And for the record, my position always was that Molina should get MORE playing time – even an extra game a week – because I considered him to be a better DEFENSIVE catcher than Podsada. That view has not changed.
ARROGANT?
The Yankees record after Jorge came back from the DL at the end of May through the ASB was 19-11 in games he started.
HOW IS 19-11 THE SAME AS 12-23? AND WHO HAS THEIR FACTS BACKWARDS?
I give up, enjoy yourselves…
mark in tampa
catching isn’t just about throwing people out.
how about handling the pitching staff?
since when is a good hitting catcher the be-all end-all?
they are a luxury.
catchers are there for defense first.
Good job, MG – you did the best you could. I appreciate the effort.
MG
sometimes this place needs a good fumigation.
the negativity and knee-jerk responses wreak.
if you notice, it dies down when people talk sense.
mick,
I realize that. I also think handling a pitching staff is a factor, but somewhat overrated, and there are no real numbers to point to to prove it. I was just taking the basestealing numbers, maybe out of context, because they are the most pathetic defensive numbers to point to for the Boston catchers. No need to make them look good, IMO.
The Yankees won 12 games in the partial month of April. Besides that, they won no less than 15 games in any month. That leaves a max of 13 or 14 losses in a month, depending on off days. In what world did they ever go 12-23? Maybe in ’08.
Unless hurt, Posada is going to catch 110 games next season.
Posada began catching again (came of the dl) on May 29th. Their record in the 35 games after that was 22 wins and 13 losses…
NYY626, it might have been 11 and 19 and not 12 and 23, and the problem was in the games he started. And that is why there was that firestorm happening at the time. The Yanks were losing a ton of games. People mentioned at the time it could have been due to the fact that he hadn’t caught for a while and was still rusty/hurting – and that very well may have been the case. But it was in that period of time that I had a lot of concern – and so did many many others both on and off the forum.
At this point, it is only about the AJ issue.
“Unless hurt, Posada is going to catch 110 games next season.”
And may he win them all.
Tom in NJ – I will have to check back to see exactly when it was that there was the big firestorm dealing with Posada. If you remember the press and commentators were all over it and Girardi was being questioned daily. That’s when we sustained a lot of losses.
Tom, I might have had the timeframe wrong.
I have a wacky idea. I’m going to look at the game logs! I’ll be back.
This was originally posted at Deadspin via the NY Times, but it’s a cool video about the MLB video archives and specifically some new footage of Ruth striking out and standing in RF in the old Stadium that was discovered recently.
http://video.nytimes.com/video.....faces.html
This thing of ours is going to last longer the Kennedy conspiracy.
Hey how about some kudos for those of us who never really weighed in on the subject yet somehow managed to find the strength to remain in here without losing our minds?
I’m a survivor of Posadagate! or Molinagate?
This is really the debate that never ends.
I might be skipping the game thread tonight. This topic is really making me rather sick already
Ignore trisha like I do, it works really well.
I was hoping this debate would die down, but what was I thinking? LOL I love Molina, but I’m starting to think it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world if the Yankees let him walk after this season. Maybe that’s the only way to let the debate end! But then we might get Posada vs. Cervelli.
this whole debate is ridiculous and really bogging down what should be a day of excitement for the rest of us…
let me solve the whole thing for you and we can all move on…
Posada is the better player, hands down, when you include all aspects of the game…this year they both threw out the same % of runners, 28% I believe… Molina is better from an overall defensive perspective but Jorge is massively better from an offensive perspective…all of this comes together to = Posada > Molina.
On the flip, Molina has been a huge addition to this team over the past couple of years and has not had a detrimental impact on the games he’s played (from a macro perspective) for us so far this year. I really think the potential for negative impact from having Molina in a game for 6-7 innings in 1, possibly 2 games a series will be minimal and if it in fact helps Burnett concentrate/pitch better than the impact will be positive regardless of Molina’s performance at the plate.
So in conclusion, Posada is the better player and anyone sane agrees with this but Molina playing tonight is not the end of the world and has the potential to be beneficial. The bottom line comes to this…it’s Girardi’s decision on who to play, and if he thinks playing Molina is the way to go tonight, then it’s the right call…the best record in baseball gets him the benefit of the doubt IMO. And guess what, even if Molina goes 0-3 and Burnett has a crappy game, it was still the right call because Joe went with his instincts and that’s what I would want from any manager in the same situation.
Lets try to get excited again….
6 hours and 20 minutes until Game 2!!!!!!!!!
what’s the weather at the stadium now? I’m too lazy to look up a weather page.. :p
Here’s something to cheer about. You don’t have to worry about “ignoring” me because I won’t be around to ignore.
Have a ball and enjoy the postseason. I don’t need the crap I get because an “elite” group here disagrees with my opinions.
See ya!
Trisha – I wasnt attacking you, I was just asking because I honesrly don’t remember that long of a slump.
Can we all just pleaseeeee end this debate already. Its such a dead issue. Our goal right now is 10 more wins!
What’s the time frame Trish? You said “Yankees went 12 and 23 when Posada started catching again in May”. Posada was on the DL from May 4th until May 29. In the 35 games after he started playing again the Yankees went 22 and 13.
trisha-
That’s your MO, ignoring people, I use it with you & voila no fights between us. You get into it with so many people on this blog, it’s really exasperating.
Hokiekill,
Thanks and I’m sure you’re point is right on the money but I can’t even read it. It’s not your fault.
It’s just that at this point, I am highly doubtful than anybody can add anything that hasn’t been said about 100 times before.
Go Yankees!
Go AJ!
Go Molina!
Go Posada!
You 3 guys (Chad, Sam, and Josh) are great. You bring your A game for every post, and the more posts the better. This blog has improved 2 fold in the last 2 weeks. Fantastic Jobs, keep it up!!
WE SHOULD CALL YOU 3 THE NASTY BOYS!!!
Arguing these points isn’t going to change the fact that Molina is catching tonight. So just shut up, sit back, try to enjoy the game, and root like h*ll that the Yanks win tonight! If they lose because AJ stunk and Molina hit into 3 double plays, then we can talk about this. Until then, let’s move on.
Thank you Hokiehill, I’ve been saying basically the same thing for a few days now! Bottom line, the one thing you didn’t mention, is that the key is having AJ be as comfortable as he possibly can, especially being his first PS game and at the Stadium no less. If that means you lose a little with the bats then so be it. You still have plenty of pop off the bench if/when needed in later innings. Please people stop the insanity, Aj needs every advantage in this start and that means Molina behind the dish going on the last good stretch he had in the season, live with it and please stop agonizing over it, it is freaking painful already!!!
nice status/signature, Trisha. I wish others would follow & do the same.
I can’t believe people are STILL talking about this Posada/Molina issue. I mean let it go people! I can’t wait until the game is over and Yanks are victorious and we can all move on, the players, the media, the fans! Everyone is acting like A-Rod was taken out of the line up. It really is not that big a deal. Girardi was on WFAN yesterday and even said back in the day when he was the Yankee catcher there were playoff games that he sat in favor of Leyritz or Posada…you just have to live with it and move on!!! Molina is a great defensive catcher, he’ll be fine and Posada will get in the game if they need his bat, or need someone to stand and watch strike 3.
Go Yankees.
This is a stupid argument. The fact of the matter is the Yankees had the best record in the regular season and need 10 more wins to win it all. I’ll cheer for whomever plays tonight.
Brian in NJ….AGREED!!!!!!
“I can’t believe people are STILL talking about this Posada/Molina issue.”
It’s why I’m planning on skipping the game thread tonight. This place will be unbearable if AJ struggles.
I went to the game logs. I might be off by one or two, but by my count, in games where Posada either started or played a significant number of innings, the Yank’s record was 61-36.
This does not count two games – April 19th and September 7th, where Jorge came into the game late and played a key role in the Yanks’ winning by hitting home runs.
At no time was there a streak where the Yanks went 12-23 or 11-19 or any other such record while Jorge was catching.
That myth is busted. I’m not surprised trisha took off.
My point was more to the effect that Joe couldn’t have made a wrong decision either way. And even more to the point, no one here is in a position to actually question that decision. Alas, the point of message boards and blog comment sections is to debate this type of thing but where things go wrong is when it becomes personal and people start SHOUTING and being overly negative towards another person, rather than simply disagreeing with or arguing against their opinion. I don’t care which side of the fence you’re on with this, or any other issue…you’re opinion is your opinion and not wrong or right regardless of what someone else thinks…
I think this blog would be a better place if more disagreements started with “I disagree and this is why…” as opposed to, “you’re such an idiot/troll because you think that way! and I’m right because obviously BLAH BLAH BLAH”
“This place will be unbearable if AJ struggles.”
It will be unbearable if he ever lets a man on base, the Yanks ever trail at all, or if a Yankee should ever make an out with a man in scoring position!
I get the ghastly feeling that this dominance will end this series.
Not sure if anyone heard the new song arod has for his at bats but it’s “Already Home” by Jay-Z. Saw this on another blog.
Some of the lyrics:
Oh they want me to fall (fall),
Fall from the top (top),
They want me to drop (drop)
They want me to stop (stop)
They want me to go (go),
I’m already gone (already)
The sh** that I’m on
I’m already home
(hey, I’m already home yeah)
I like it!
“This place will be unbearable if AJ struggles.”
It will be unbearable if he ever lets a man on base, the Yanks ever trail at all, or if a Yankee should ever make an out with a man in scoring position!
———————————————
There’s actually no winning as far as comments go. If AJ is great than the supporters of the decision will gloat…if he fails than those who don’t like the decision will gloat…this kind of thing is why I told myself to stay away from the comments…for some reason I just can’t do that.
All this arguing isn’t going to change that Molina is catching Burnett tonight.
But good god, let’s hope everything works out. Forget about this blog. The entire New York media will be in full frenzy mode if Burnett has a bad game.
“irardi was on WFAN yesterday and even said back in the day when he was the Yankee catcher there were playoff games that he sat in favor of Leyritz or Posada…you just have to live with it and move on!!!”
The biggest difference is that back in those days people weren’t utilizing statistical methods of analysis like average runs created per game and all the numerous offensive models that so clearly show Posada as so much more valuable than Molina in the lineup. It’s a loaded argument because the crux of it from the Molina camp is that AJ is more comfortable with him (not something that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt statistically) and that AJ’s comfort is more important than losing Posada’s bat for 3 or so plate appearances (another thing that is not really quantifiable).
shouldn’t we be happy that the Posada/Molina non-issue is the only controversy we are talking about? No Arod controversy, no bullpen issues, no slumping players (although if Teix has another o-fer tonight that will certainly change). It’s been a pleasure having nothing more than a fabricated controversy to worry about.
“This place will be unbearable if AJ struggles.”
*******
This place will be unbearable if he throws the first pitch for a ball.
Crawdaddy
October 9th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Unless hurt, Posada is going to catch 110 games next season.
——
Molinas response to this post was “all I know is we better win everyone of those games”
The Ghost, Teixeira hit the ball hard in all of his at-bats, the unfortunate thing was that they were for the most part directly at the shortstop and on the ground, with men on 1st no less.
I expect that unless he gets his stroke out of whack, swinging from the left side tonight he will have some better results.
It’s the gloating and the goading that gets me the most. The statements of “vindication.” The “See, I told you so” nature of some comments. Having to be right. Having to have the last word. It’s juvenile.
Those who want to avoid the skirmish are told to “scroll past,” but when a subject takes over an entire thread, it’s impossible to simply scroll past. It chases people away, or inhibits them from posting.
How many times can the same thing be said over and over and over ad nauseum? It’s an infinite loop, apparently.
Is there a game somewhere this afternoon? Or just the two tonight?
Erin
October 9th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
“This place will be unbearable if AJ struggles.”
*******
This place will be unbearable if he throws the first pitch for a ball.
****
This place will be unbearable.
Why is this even a controversy?
AJ is currently on a good roll and Joe wanted to try and keep it going and not disrupt it.
And to those who think Girardi schemed this thing up in September to purposefully pair them together… realize that 3 of the games he caught were day games after night games, which PO never catches. The other was when Posada was suspended. The other was when he was nicked up from the neck issue.
Joe will go with Molina,but if it looks like the game is going in the tank,he will relieve the AJ/Molina combo and go to the pen.Posada and Cerevelli are available in relief.
The AJ/Molina combo I believe are on a short leash.If AJ wins this game and I hope he does,Joe made a gutsy smart move.
If AJ HAS to be pulled to save the Team from a loss,Joe will hear about that to infinitum! This will be a heavily managed game.
Now the reasons Joe wants this game,is because it zaps the momentum the Twins came into postseason with,and the Twins would need to win 3 straight.Meaning the Yankees quit,and that’s not going to happen.
Joe has an arsenal in relief,he and the Yankees want this for Yankee Universe,believe people.
A couple of days ago,Joe in an interview in the NY Times,said he viewed the games like chess,he’s a thinker(engineer degree) A-type personality,He is driven by success,especially after last years epic fail.
MG-
urban dictionary:
crazymaker
http://www.urbandictionary.com.....ZY%20MAKER
“Someone who has a deep sense of self love. They lack insight into the people around them. They de-value and break down the people closest to them so they can achieve control. Manipulative mind numbing conversation about how they are feeling and why they are better is an earfull they are always ready to share. Sorry is a word they use strategically along with their mind games to squeeze every bit of life out of you.”
Doreen-
Just the 2 games tonight, it’s a travel day for the other series.
i didn’t know that Joe has an engineering degree.. interesting.
Mutual Assured Destruction?
“It’s the gloating and the goading that gets me the most. The statements of “vindication.” The “See, I told you so” nature of some comments. Having to be right. Having to have the last word. It’s juvenile.”
Thank you. I’ve said the same things in my head for weeks but wasn’t able to put it as politely into words so I’ve just bit my tongue.