Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Oct 22, 2009 
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The Yankees are one win from the World Series and they don’t need any reminders about what happened the last time they were this close. The memories of 2004 are still fresh, so they’re taking it one game at a time, and Chad Jennings has all the details on the team’s approach to Game 5.
A.J. Burnett has been pitching behind CC Sabathia all season, and now he’s got a chance to provide the ultimate follow-up: A spot in the World Series. I looked at Burnett’s first season in New York in my column.
Joe Girardi figures to stick with what’s worked in Game 5, subbing in Jose Molina to catch Burnett and putting Jorge Posada on the bench. The notebook also has items on Derek Jeter’s health, an intriguing international free agent and more.
Is it not true that the Yankees have only allowed two home runs in the entire playoffs so far?
Kendry Morales and Vlad?
I believe i heard a stat that the Yanks had not allowed one yet during the game that Vlad hit one out.
It is correct, the Yanks have hit 14 HR in seven postseason games and allowed just two! Let’s hope that continues.
Really want to see AJ pitch well and efficiently. You always want to clinch first chance you get. Im not joining in on any Phillies discussion til this thing is settled. It’s not like looking ahead with a big lead in the pennant race… we’re talking one win before the end of the week.
Repost:
Bronx Bombers Girl-your dinner sounded great! Did your mom like it?
it’s true about the two homers, and Jinx Buck ruined it
3 Homers. Kendrick hit one off of Pettitte.
Swishes Fishes
October 22nd, 2009 at 8:20 am
it’s true about the two homers, and Jinx Buck ruined it
*************
LOL. I said the same thing as soon as he started talking about that. I hadn’t even realized it before he mentioned it.
Here’s hoping the NYY end the series tonight, or by Game 6 at the latest. Aside from the obvious reasons that we just want a win, avoiding having CC pitch Game 7 could go a long way toward helping the NYY win the WS. If CC pitches Game 7 Sunday (the WS starts Wed.), he wouldn’t get the Game 1 start and he wouldn’t be available for 3 WS starts. He has been dominating this post-season. Having him go in WS Game 1 would give the NYY a great chance to get a 1-0 lead and get some momentum going.
I want it done tonight! I want to stay up and watch a champagne celebration! I want someone to pie AJ tonight!
If you look at AJ Burnett’s ERA by months this year he was bad during April and May, amazing during June and July, then bad again for August and September. That means we have until December until he starts pitching bad again!
“If you look at AJ Burnett’s ERA by months this year he was bad during April and May, amazing during June and July, then bad again for August and September. That means we have until December until he starts pitching bad again!”
And with this god aweful scheduling we still may be playing in December!!!!
I hope you are right Ghost. If not, I am sure w/ a well rested bullpen AJ will be on a short leash.
I hope they get it done tonight, I have had enough of the Angels fans…accusing Mo of using a spitter…complaining that the umps are giving all the calls to the Yankees…not to mention the annoying rally monkey and thunder stix
Chris: Just imagine if the NYY do win tonight. It’ll be a 6 day layoff until the WS starts. The ASB doesn’t even last that long!
http://www.newsday.com/blogs/s.....-1.1540463
See ya, L.A. Enjoy rollerblading on Venice Beach while the rest of us watch the World Series.
It’s only fair, anyway, because New York and Philly actually care.
Check out this ratings nugget from Game 4 of the ALCS Tuesday night::
Not only did the New York market crush Los Angeles in the ratings – 19.8 percent of area homes compared to 10.8 – but L.A. barely beat out Philadelphia, 10.8 to 10.6, and Philly didn’t even have a team in the game.
Yankees-Dodgers might have had more national TV appeal than Yankees-Phillies, but the latter is a compelling matchup, too, and should do very well in the Northeast . . . where people like baseball.
Jennifer
my boss lived in CA for awhile and would go to Angels games when the Yankees were there. He said they would all be gone by the 7th inning, and during the game the fans would be more interested in hitting a beach ball around then actually watching.
This catcher controversy is a distraction.AJ has issues.
It’s suppose to be what’s best for the team I thought.
The continuing saga of the poster boy for womanizing ….
http://www.nydailynews.com/mon.....andal.html
It seems they are more interested in clapping those sticks together and watching for the monkey than actually paying attention. If we take them out of the game early they’ll leave. I can’t imagine what it must sound like there with the thunder sticks. I’d be curious what the home team players think about it. I’d walk out everyday with a headache. Heck I was getting one watching it on tv. I had to turn the sound all the way down.
haiku-man
Jose catching, Jorge at dh. He killed Lackey and has been hitting this post season.
I agree with Jorge at DH, Keep Swisher on the bench to pitch hit for Jose and give GGBG a start in center putting Melky in right.
Jeter SS – Feeling better?
Damon LF – Getting hot?
Tex 1B – Time to wake up Tex!
ARod 3B – Won’t see anything to hit tonight
Jorge DH – His night to shine!
Cano 2B – RISP numbers get some help tonight?
Melky RF – Heating up!
Molina C – Keep your bat warm Swish
Gardner CF – 2/3 so far
Ummmm, we have to win tonight. Look what we’re dealing with again on Saturday:
http://www.weather.com/weather.....undeclared
noreaster
Another thing to add, they need Jorge a hot hitter behind Alex, cause as you said he won’t get anything to hit.
Also I think Tex is primed to break out of it. Tuesday he started hitting the ball hard. He just missed a HR in the first inning, and he got a hard hit single to left.
Good point Jennifer, plus we also have Matsui on the bench in case Joe decides to give up the DH and catch Posada when Jose leaves.
Agree with Molina catching and Jorge as DH. The “who catches AJ” controversy is no such thing. The bottom line is the guy generally has pitched better to and is more comfortable with Molina.
Doing what your starting pitcher prefers IS in the team’s best interests because in any single game the starting pitcher is the most important guy.
And with Alex as on fire as he is they’ll have to pitch to Tex, who as we stated looked primed to break out.
Matsui has been pretty awful this post season. Gotta sit him.
You go for the jugular tonight. You need Mo for 2 you use him for 2. No playing around. Do not bring the series back to NY.
“Ummmm, we have to win tonight. Look what we’re dealing with again on Saturday:”
hope someone wil show that weather report to the yankee players (some extra motivation wouldn’t hurt). And for that matter show it to the Angels players too
TLVP
October 22nd, 2009 at 8:15 am
so what if Mike Staton’s ERA was above 5 in 1998 – his WHIP was 1.22 which is fine but he gave up a lot of HR’s and that will kill you ERA
what’s your point? i know some people in the media thinks the 1998 bull penn was superior ot the current one which is a dubious claim. The one area where 1998 is clearly better than 2009 is starting pitching
—————————————
the point is that if there was a LoHud blog in 1998 the complaints about Stanton and Nelson would have been almost identical to the ones in 2009 about Coke, Bruney, and the rest. Coke’s numbers in 2009 are virtually identical to Stanton’s yet Stanton is remembered as a brilliant shutdown reliever (he was very good regardless of his stats, as is Coke). Stanton’s ERA in 1998 didn’t seem to bother the Yankees much, did it?
And this thing about Torre burning out the bullpen is also a bunch of crap. In the championship years the top 4 starters averaged almost 7 innings a start, very similar to the top 3 this year. That doesn’t leave tons of innings for the bullpen to fill and makes it much easier to keep it fresh. By comparison, the top 3 starters in 2006 averaged just over 6 innings per start and Wright, the #5, less than 5 innings-that adds almost 150-200 innings to the bullpen load for the season-divide that among 4-5 guys and it adds 50% to an average relief pitchers innings for the season-what is a manager supposed to do in that situation, carry 14 pitchers?
Yankees starting pitching from 2004 on (they were in the WS in 2001 and 2003) has essentially sucked until this year, it’s no surprise that it correlates to success in 2009. Yet Torre is villified by many on this blog for screwing it up when it all comes down to starting pitching, as any knowledgeable baseball expert will say.
Come on AJ !! .. Clinch it baby!!
10 hours and 38 minutes until Game 5!!!!!!!!!!!!
Average…sorry to disagree, but the crap about Torre burning out his bullpen was totally true. Torre felt like he had to win EVERY game and went to his go to guys EVERY night, so by the time the post season came around our guys had NOTHING left. That’s what cost us in 04 when they couldn’t hold a multi run lead for Mo…
BTW, the name is not appreciated…
50/50-The Average Baseball IQ on the Lohud Blog-Highest in the Majors.
============================================================
Torre is working the same formula in LA that he did in NY.
Win the the regular season fade in the post season with a spent pen.
The definition of insanity is:
Repeating the same actions and expecting a different result.
Jen your on the Mark ! the hitting will be there sit HM and get Mo in ASAP.
Aloha Joe T
Just saw the pictures in the Post Steve, STEVE !! when I heard 22 I’m picturing Amy Fisher maybe Sahel Kazemi But DUDE Seriously I never would have thought of you as a Chubby Chaser……
Reminder:
“Guess the Line Up” will run from 3-4:30 this afternoon.
This will be Round 7 of postseason GTLU. Since it seems to be picking up momentum again, I want to go over the rules
1) Post players AND positions
2) No late submissions
3) No early submissions
4) No revisions
Have no problem with using Molina tonight to catch AJ. But I do think the Yankees need Posada’s bat in the line-up as DH behind Alex to give him some protection. Matsui has done nothing this series. That was the main reason for carrying Cervelli on the roster.
Hope that the Yanks wrap it up tonight.
I just threw up afer i saw the picture of the girl that phillps was banging….absolutly disgusting..What is wrong with him?
Noreaster, when killed the Yankees in ’04 was the starting pitching in the ALCS in games 5,6, and 7, give me a break. It had nothing to do with the bullpen. They lost game 4 in the 12th, game 5 in the 14th and game 7 was Brown and Vazquez. Show me one relief pitcher who blew a game because they were ‘burned out’, there are none. Quantrill lost game 4 in his 1st inning of work; Loiza, a starter, pitched the 11-14th in game 5.
Facts are facts, crap is crap.
I just threw up afer i saw the picture of the girl that phillps was banging….absolutly disgusting..What is wrong with him?
– its called a slump buster ! .
Erica, I stand behind my lineup…but I’m cool with the rules…
Erica, Im early, but excited:
SS-Derek Jeter
LF-Damon
1B-Tex
3B-AROD
C-Posada
DH-Matsui
2B-Cano
RF-Melky
CF-Gardner
Looking for a solid outing from AJ. Not a lot of walks, HBP, and wild pitches.
His last start with Molina catching, the tying run scored on a pitch that Molina couldn’t even stop.
i agree that you want posada’s bat in there behind a-rod.
Also, Mo will be available for 2 innings im sure since they had off yesterday, and he didnt pitch in game 4, plus worst case they have off tomorrow.
She is just a young troubled girl. Phillips behaved shamefully, he is a disgrace.
Well 50, your premise on Torre is totally false and is well documented given his record burning out bullpen pitchers and ending their careers. As for 04, the series should never have gotten back to NY…facts are facts and crap is crap…
Joe has to have both Matsui and Posada in the line-up:
Posada is batting .414 in his career against Lackey
Matsui is batting .286
Swish on the other hand…….batting a whopping .116
I think he is going to def start Gardner, however if he benches Posada, our line-up looks awfully weak….
I agree with benching Swisher in favor of Gardner. Swisher has really been pressing at the plate and part of that probably comes from the feeling that he’s letting the team down with his performance. Getting him back to the bench will take a lot of that pressure off of him and allow him to be an underdog again. It also gives the Yankees a good bat off the bench for Molina or Gardner in the late innings. I also think Gardner getting on base will piss off Lackey who has a short fuse to begin with.
It is bad enough what Phillips did to his wife and that girl, but what about his kids…how could any dad submit his kids to that kind of humiliation.
show me one relief pitcher below the age of 35 who Joe Torre ‘burned out’ and ruined his career. And don’t give me Scott Proctor, I think alcohol had much more to play in that than anything else.
Sam, nice article about AJ. I didn’t know his offer to Robertson – what a generous offer. Earlier this season, Phil and co. talked about what a mentor he’s been to the youngsters. I hope he has a good game tonight….
Since Girardi has Molina catching AJ, I would sit Matsui and Swisher and start Posada at dh and Gadner in cf. If you pinch hit for Molina use Cervelli at catcher.
AJ was not bad in September …….except for one start. Again, he should be pitching to Posada – this is all in Joe’s head.
Robbykid-
Glad you are excited. Love the enthusiasm. Just please post it again after 3.
Hey 50-The Average IQ
Why don’t you go away and raise the average IQ a few points?
If you honestly think Torre didn’t burn out and ruin the careers of Quantrill, Gordon, Sturtze and Proctor check their post-Torre careers. Either haven’t been paying attention or are in denial.
Torre DID blow the ALCS by using Gordon and Mariano too much in games four and five acting like they were must wins which they clearly were not.
Citing starters innings stats as evidence Torre didn’t burn out pitchers is like citing stolen base stats to prove something about HR hitting. Torre didn’t burn out every reliever he managed… just the ones he trusted (other than Mariano) 2004-07.
Noreaster
October 22nd, 2009 at 9:34 am
Erica, I stand behind my lineup…but I’m cool with the rules…
****
Thanks Noreaster. I don’t like being such a pain about rules, but I can’t play with the line ups ALL day when I am at work (just some of the day)
ok…
Eye of the Tiger baby, Eye of the Tiger !
Let’s finish the angels off tonight. Go Yankees
50, we’re not having this discussion…do your own research, trust me, it will be easy (hello, Scott Proctor). But nice job trying to limit pool of relievers Joe has burned out. Kind of like a Red Sox fan limiting the comparison between the Yanks and Sox to just championships over the last 9 years…
I don’t get the “controversy” over Jose catching Burnett and Matsui DHing…it’s not a new thing anymore and we’ve faired pretty well the last couple games we’ve gone with that formula. Besides, Jorge will be back in there in the 6th or 7th and all will be well again…whatever the combo, I just hope we win tonight…talking about the 04 collapse has me antsy, and losing tonight will do nothing to sooth that and will only increase the talk from the talking heads about “could it happen again?!” I don’t want to hear that nonsense anymore than I have to…
Not sure the Yanks could pitch CC 3 times in WS anyway. The only off days barring rainouts, are the 2 travel days. Say they start CC in games 1 and 4. That would mean Burnett and Pettite would be moved up 1 day each, and they also would have to pitch on 3 days rest. I think Gaudin might have to start a game this time.
Erica, It’s all about getting along and having some fun! (and this has been a fun year!)
I would hesitate to sit Matsui tonight because he has good numbers against Lackey. Posada will be in the game as soon as Burnett comes out anyway
There were two Joe Torre’s as manager of the Yankees.
One with Don Zimmer on the bench and one without.
The one without Zimmer on the bench burned out relief pitchers AND the team. He also cared more about his image and his brand the final few years on the job.
That wore on almost everybody on the team, except those who blindly followed him.
In 2007, Luis Vizcaino pitched 13 times in the second half of the year in games when the Yankees had leads of 4 or more runs.
He was shot by the time the playoffs came around.
He killed Tom Gordon in 2004 and rendered him useless in the post-season.
His overuse of Proctor, Quantrill, Sturtze and others are well documented.
Yes, the starting pitching wasn’t what it was in the Dynasty Years. However, as manager, you have to do a better job of handling your bullpen and Torre did a poor job of that in the Post-Zimmer years.
The Yankees are one win away from going to the World Series with a 3 man starting pitching staff. Joe Torre wasn’t that short of arms in his time in NY.
He just did a poor job of utilizing them in the Post-Zimmer years.
Erin-
Rubber Duckie just came on my iPod
So it is really the Boss’ fault; he was the reason Zim left.
Ironic.
Erica-nice
Was it true that Gordon was so nervous in games 4 and 5 in Boston that he was throwing up in the bullpen? He was shot and he knew it, thanks to Torre
Was it true that Gordon was so nervous in games 4 and 5 in Boston that he was throwing up in the bullpen? He was shot and he knew it, thanks to Torre
i skipped the comments section the last couple of days, knowing how bad it must’ve been for girardi. some people have ridiculous expectations.
big party here in northeast philly last night, the cops were better prepared since this is becoming routine, so they greased the lightpoles to keep the damage down.
the phillies are no joke and wont be easy to beat in the WS.
sorry joe torre, but at least where you are now, only pat sajak and vin sculley really care whether you win or lose.
go yankees finish it off tonight!
Totally agree Hokiehill, if AJ is more comfortable, or has better results w/ Molina, then put them together. The Yankees tend to score more in the later innings anyway, and by then Posada will be in the game.
I like Ghost’s idea of Gardner (if he can get on base)distracting Lackey. Actually I hope any Yankee on base tries to run. I think that helped against Kazmir.
SJ 44
Amen brother! And none of those guys every returned to their pre-burnout level.
We could also make a list of relievers who died of loneliness cuz they weren’t “trusted”.
let’s see, Quantrill made over 80 appearances a season 3 years in a row, he was 35 at the end of that season, and his career ending is Torre’s fault?
Gordon, same thing. His work load with the Yankees was about the same as in prior years and he was 37 years old when he left to be the Phillies closer. But that’s Torre’s fault as well.
Strurze was just a mediocre pitcher who was a starter before going to the pen. But it’s Torre’s fault as well.
Proctor was an alcoholic while he was with the Yankees but that is Torre’s fault as well.
2004 was an aberration. The Yankees had 6 chances to score runs in games 4 and 5 in extra innings to win the game and the series-they didn’t. If you don’t score eventually the other team does.
I guess that’s it, so many of you hate the Sox so much and can’t just admit they won the Series in an historic event you just need someone to blame and Torre is the obvious villain.
JohnC
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:00 am
Was it true that Gordon was so nervous in games 4 and 5 in Boston that he was throwing up in the bullpen? He was shot and he knew it, thanks to Torre
***********
I’ve heard that too.
So Torre should get no blame whatsoever for the not so happy moments during his time here? mmmkay
sj44-
just curious.
why would zimmer have much of an effect on pitching decisions?
i never thought of him as much of a pitching guru.
not saying he didn’t, but he was a utility infielder as a player so i wouldn’t think he knows that much about pitching except that he had a hard time hitting it.
who was the yankee pitching coach at the time ?
i would think he’d have had more influence.
again, not sure he did.
i love joe torre, but torre definitly overused the ‘hot hand’ to the point that of becoming a ‘dead arm’
but it worked and he won and we partied.
theres no question girardi this season developed a full effective bullpen out of a collection of arms who started out terribly. torre would never have done that, instead he would have burned out one after the other.
guys are we really going to debate Joe Torre , Don Zimmer and 2004 when our team is on the verge of getting back to the World Series .????
Come on. The Past is the Past . Lets worry about tonight !
I definitely feel Gardner will start tonight against the righty, but you can’t take melky out because he has finally gotten hot. Melky in right, BG in CF, and Swish to PH later in the game if necessary, but hopefully it wont be.
BETSY
I noticed that you thanked Sam about a generous offer made by AJ to Robertson. I cant find the article. Do you still have the link?
good point about zimmer, i dont know how much of the yankees success can be traced to a bench coach, but i think torre was much sharper with him on the bench. just as i think girardi benefits alot from having tony pena there.
Yes Torre was such a genius he used Gordon for game 3 with a 19-8 lead! WHY? He burned him out!
S.A.–Relax, Relate, Release
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:08 am
So Torre should get no blame whatsoever for the not so happy moments during his time here? mmmkay
*****
I hate 2004
I hope with all of my heart and soul that we can clinch tonight to neutralize that stink that still lingers in the air.
guys are we really going to debate Joe Torre , Don Zimmer and 2004 when our team is on the verge of getting back to the World Series .????
============================================================
It is a valid discussion at this time, given that Torre’s Dodgers got knocked out last night for the 2nd straight year, in similar fashion to the way the Yankees were eliminated during Torre’s latter tenure. It is also topical in light of Girardi’s use of the pen this year as described by Ham Fighters.
In fact it is very Blog worthy.
so randy, where are we at on the cashman-meter these days?
whooooooooa we’re half way there, whooooooa oh, Livin on a Prayer ! 1 +4 wins needed
I hope with all of my heart and soul that we can clinch tonight to neutralize that stink that still lingers in the air.
******************************************
With you on that Erica, plus if the Yanks don’t win tonight we are going to have 2 days of reminders of the 2004 ALCS collapse.
if i can take any postive out of 2004 .. i have to say it made me more humble as a Yankee fan. Nothing is given and the game ain’t over till the very last out.
Mr October the link is in Sam’s entry.
Nevermind Betsy Im a moron this morning!!! I totally missed it but I found it. Thanks anyway.
Fran (the original) and OPPC member
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:14 am
I hope with all of my heart and soul that we can clinch tonight to neutralize that stink that still lingers in the air.
******************************************
With you on that Erica, plus if the Yanks don’t win tonight we are going to have 2 days of reminders of the 2004 ALCS collapse.
*****
That is what scares me most. I don’t like to even consider the possibility of loss, but if there is one this place will be troll and bridge jumper filled for two days with 2004 comparisons.
We deserve better than that
I think the bigger problem with Torre’s management of pens was not helping/allowing young guys to develop. They’d fail and that would be it.
That’s the difference with Girardi’s approach. Last year he got effective work out of guys like Veras. This year Robertson emerged.
And he knows, you can’t pull the plug after one failure. Guys know and react to it. Bruney said before how much Girardi makes guys in the pen more comfortable, because there is a better trust factor.
yanks
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:14 am
whooooooooa we’re half way there, whooooooa oh, Livin on a Prayer ! 1 +4 wins needed
*********
Now I’m going to have that song stuck in my head all day. LOL
Jennifer Thanks I saw it at the last second. I totally missed it.
“let’s see, Quantrill made over 80 appearances a season 3 years in a row, he was 35 at the end of that season, and his career ending is Torre’s fault?
Gordon, same thing. His work load with the Yankees was about the same as in prior years and he was 37 years old when he left to be the Phillies closer. But that’s Torre’s fault as well.
Strurze was just a mediocre pitcher who was a starter before going to the pen. But it’s Torre’s fault as well.
Proctor was an alcoholic while he was with the Yankees but that is Torre’s fault as well.”
Much of the above is true, but Torre did a lousy job using his bullpen down the stretch and in the playoffs. He used some of his best relievers in games where the Yankees had big leads when he could’ve saved some of those bullets left in certain pitching arms for the games he really needed them to perform well in.
Zimmer ran the game on the bench for Torre in his time in NY.
Zimmer and Mel ran the pitching staff. Joe was more of a CEO type of manager when Zim and Mel were with him.
Joe trusted them and followed almost every suggestion they made.
Joe never really had that level of trust with another bench coach. He trusted Guidry because Ronnie was a yes man to Joe. When Joe panicked and overused guys, Ronnie was Old School and didn’t see anything wrong with it. Unfortunately, that was not in the best interests of the team.
That’s why they put the Joba Rules in place when Joba was called up. It was to protect Joba from Torre.
By the time Zimmer left, it was open warfare between Joe and George. Joe had his legacy and that became the most important thing to him. Yes, even more important than winning because after 2004, Joe was more concerned about Joe than the team.
That’s the unfortunate byproduct of working for George Steinbrenner for a long time. You always have to watch your back.
Its much different now working for Hal than it was for George.
When Torre dropped Arod to the 8th hole in 2006, he lost the locker room and never got it back.
Guys said all the PC things when the cameras were rolling because they knew ripping St. Joe was media suicide for them. Privately, many of them, even guys that liked Joe, never got over what he did to Arod and the team that day. He quit that game and the season and some guys to this day will never forgive him for it.
2004 wasn’t an aberration. It was a manager in full panic mode after losing Game 4 and he managed like it the rest of that series and it cost the team bigtime.
Not running on Wakefield. Overusing Gordon. Not running or bunting on Schilling. Using a shot Kevin Brown in Game 7.
I could go on but you get the picture.
He did a great job for the Yankees until the last 3-4 years he was on the job. After that, he became too caught up in his image and was much more detached from the team and that hurt them in the post-season.
He had the better team every year he was in the post-season from 2003-2007 and lost all but 3 series.
Sorry but, that doesn’t get a pass. Its part of his legacy just as the 4 WS titles are.
“so randy, where are we at on the cashman-meter these days?”
ham fighter-
i think once he got finished burning wang this year , he’s done a good job.
and over the winter the yankee$ got the two players that absolutely changed the team in sabathia and teixeira.
if anyone is interested, here’s a good link indirectly about cashman this year:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03.....gewanted=2
SJ44
Best analysis of Torre’s decline and fall that I have read. A World Series this year will be very catharctic and also firm up the new Yankee order.
I think Posada and Gardner should start, put Swish and Matsui on the bench and PH them. Slide Posada from DH in for Molina at the plate in the late innings and PH Swish and Matsui for the pitcher’s spot when he comes up.
It could be good practice for the World Series, haha =)
No Posada in the lineup. He can pinch hit and catch later in the game.
Matsui probably needs to get his knees drained again.
He had the better team every year he was in the post-season from 2003-2007 and lost all but 3 series.
Sorry but, that doesn’t get a pass. Its part of his legacy just as the 4 WS titles are.
*****
In his book 2004 and the Chapters after is called “The Abyss”
jennifer
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:12 am
Yes Torre was such a genius he used Gordon for game 3 with a 19-8 lead! WHY? He burned him out!
———————————–
he burned him out so badly he threw 2 scoreless innings in game 4 after the Sox tied the game.
I would agree that Zimmer was a key element of the Yankees championship teams. And there is only one person to blame for Zim leaving, we all know who that is.
“He did a great job for the Yankees until the last 3-4 years he was on the job. After that, he became too caught up in his image and was much more detached from the team and that hurt them in the post-season.
He had the better team every year he was in the post-season from 2003-2007 and lost all but 3 series.
Sorry but, that doesn’t get a pass. Its part of his legacy just as the 4 WS titles are.”
SJ44,
I agree with you up to a point. I’m not so sure he had the better team in 2004. He had the better lineup, but the starting pitching favored the Red Sox. In 2005, I thought the Angels were the better club, but I agree that the 2006 Yankees were better than the Tigers and that he should’ve beaten the Indians in 2007.
I don’t dislike Joe Torre. I think he did a great job for the Yankees.
However, the last 4 years he was on the job was not his best work. It just wasn’t.
He wasn’t welcoming to new players. He became more and more detached from the team, and his work with the pitching staff was just awful.
Its all part of his legacy. You can’t cherry pick the good parts and forget the bad.
Just as Arod has had a remarkable post-season, he can’t erase the past. He’s just looking to forge new memories.
Its the way it goes in sports. All good things must end and you have to move on.
The Yankees and Torre did and I think both are in a better place right now than if they stayed together.
It worked out well for both parties.
Take a look at game 5. Yes he burned him out! Enough talking about Saint Joe. We are one game away from advancing to the world series for the first time since 2003. That is what we should be talking about!
sj44-
thanks for the in depth response about zim and torre. i obvioulsy like torre , but there’s a time for any manager to move on.
actually in aventura today. time to take the wonder puppy jack russell to a dog park so i don’t get chewed to death trying to watch the game tonight.
Randy,
I’m heading to Cincinnati later today for work.
If I knew you were going to be in Aventura, I would have put off travel for a day.
Instead, I will be in Jeff Ruby’s Steakhouse (a must visit if you ever go to Cincy) to watch the game.
I’m hoping they can clinch it tonight. If not, I have to re-arrange the Saturday schedule to make sure I can see the game.
SJ, I’m not disagreeing with you about whether Torre should still be with the Yankees, all things come to an end, I just object to his villification on this blog for every bad thing that happened to the Yankees in his last years. He had an owner who drove him crazy and no young pitching until his last 2 months with the club.
We do disagree on 2004, the Yankees had every opportunity to put away the series regardless of the bullpen and didn’t. By the time they lost the 2 extra innings games they were done.
Joe and Evan are already discussing Phillies Yankees.
1967 made me a humble yankees fan. so did 1989.
thats why i said i love joe torre. how can you not love a manager who won you 4 WS in 5 seasons? yeah he burned out his bp in later years, he was trying to win a 5th.
all good things do come to an end and joe’s came last season.
i still love the guy.
This series is far from over in my mind.
The Angels have an uphill battle.
However, if they win today, a lot of things can happen.
I think the Yankees are more fortified than they were in 2004 to avoid a collapse.
Mainly because the locker room isn’t uptight.
I remember being around the team after Game 4 in 2004. To a man, they acted as if they were in big trouble.
That was a bad sign to me.
This year, I talked to a couple of players I know after Game 4 and they were non-plussed about the win.
To them, it meant nothing until they win Game 4.
Entirely different vibe than in 2004.
That said, when you have a team down, its best to put them away.
You would hate to have to burn CC in a Game 7 when you can finish these guys off now.
Anyone seen this bs:
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/12399965
Loose screws could sink Yankees’ World Series ship
Oct. 21, 2009
By Gregg Doyel
CBSSports.com National Columnist
ANAHEIM, Calif. — Playing like this, the Yankees won’t win the World Series. They can’t. Not with their players getting picked off and their starting rotation at 60 percent and their meddling manager making moves just to show everybody how smart he is.
Playing like this, the Yankees can reach the World Series — but that’s not their goal. Getting there? The Yankees didn’t spend $200 million to get there. They spent it to win it, and they were way too good for Minnesota in the Division Series and they’re proving to be too good for the Angels in the American League Championship Series.
But the Yankees can’t screw around and win the World Series like they’re screwing around winning the pennant.
Philadelphia ain’t Anaheim.
Is that clear enough? The Phillies are at a whole other level from the Angels, and I don’t care what the regular season tries to tell you. The regular season lies. You are what your record says you are? Not really. Not in baseball. Strange but true: The two teams that finish 162 games with the best record in each league almost never advance to face off in the World Series. The AL’s regular season best vs. the NL’s regular season best hasn’t happened in 14 years, and it won’t happen this season. The Dodgers won 95 games, tops in the National League, but they’re being clocked by the Phillies in the NLCS.
The regular season is 162 games of misleading drudgery, and without any competition in the National League East to keep their attention, the Phillies drudged their way to 93 victories. The Angels won 97 games, but the Angels aren’t four games better than Philadelphia. The Angels aren’t any games better — not in the postseason format. The regular season is about depth and patience and front-office moves and grinding, and the Angels have all of that. The postseason is about star power, and the Phillies have that.
The Phillies have as much star power as the Yankees, is my point. Which means the Yankees won’t be able to shock-and-awe their way to the World Series title like they have shocked-and-awed — and botched-and-bungled — their way to the precipice of the AL pennant.
The Yankees would be wise to use the rest of the ALCS — whether it’s limited to Game 5 on Thursday night or it extends to Game 6 or even (doubtfully) Game 7 in New York — tightening up the loose screws in their ship.
The loosest screw is in the dugout, where Joe Girardi has turned the ALCS into his personal Buck Showalter moment. Not since Showalter was reinventing the game has a manager been such a showoff, including a whopping stretch that saw Girardi make 14 pitching changes in 18 innings. That micro-managing leaked into Game 3 of the ALCS, when Girardi broke up the momentum of Andy Pettitte’s duel with Vladimir Guerrero to visit the mound with two balls and two strikes just to remind Pettitte of something, presumably how smart his manager is. Girardi was brilliant, all right. Probably puzzled and definitely disrupted, Pettitte’s next pitch was blasted by Guerrero for the tying home run.
And it’s not just Girardi. It’s the New York offense. And pitching. And base running. Let’s take them one at a time.
Offensively, the Yankees reached the fourth inning of Game 4 in a team-wide 3-for-35 slump with runners in scoring position. New York had survived that thanks to an awful lot of Alex Rodriguez, but his hot streak can’t continue. It just can’t. Baseball is about ebbs and flows, and he’s flowing almost as well as anyone has ever flowed in the postseason, but it can’t continue. The odds are against it. Baseball is a coin flip, and A-Rod has come up heads eight games in a row. In the next round we’ll see his tail. Count on that. And if the rest of the Yankees are still doing their 3-for-35 thing, well, there’s always 2010.
Maybe by 2010 the Yankees can figure out their rotation. General manager Brian Cashman is getting too much praise for New York’s dominance considering he spent $200 million on a team that has just three starting pitchers. Three. And that will hurt in the World Series unless Girardi drops the Showalter act and goes all Dusty Baker on the Phillies, using (up) ace C.C. Sabathia in Games 1, 4 and 7. The schedule will allow it, assuming the ALCS ends in time for Sabathia to be ready for Game 1 of the World Series, and then assuming he pitches on three days’ rest — as he did in Game 4 of the ALCS — in Games 4 and 7 of the World Series.
Goofs like this might not hurt the Yankees in the ALCS, but they certainly will against the Phillies. (Getty Images)
Goofs like this might not hurt the Yankees in the ALCS, but they certainly will against the Phillies. (Getty Images)
Sabathia was dominant Tuesday night, but the last time he went on three days’ rest in the postseason, he was battered for five runs in 3 2/3 innings in Game 2 of the 2008 NL Division Series. The team that battered Sabathia that day? The Philadelphia Phillies. You follow?
Whoever would become the Yankees’ fourth pitcher in the World Series, presumably Joba Chamberlain, the Yankees’ Sabathia-dependent rotation won’t be as good as the Phillies’ Cliff Lee-injected rotation.
Which means the Yankees will have to do the little things well. But they haven’t done the little things well all week. The most holy shortstop, Derek Jeter, was picked off Tuesday. So was Nick Swisher, though the umpire blew the call. Later, veteran Jorge Posada ran himself off the bases when retreating to third on a comebacker to the mound, only to find teammate Robinson Cano there. The reaction of both Posada and Cano? Stepping off the bag. Brilliant. That’s not the Yankees. That’s the Bad News Bears.
And these are the Phillies: Ryan Howard and Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley. Shane Victorino and Jayson Werth and Raul Ibanez. Pedro Feliz and Carlos Ruiz slugging from the seventh and eighth spots in the lineup. A rotation of Lee, Cole Hamels, J.A. Happ, Joe Blanton and Pedro Martinez. Brad Lidge closing games like it was 2008. Ryan Madson setting him up.
The Yankees had better get their stuff together, and soon. Or the 2009 World Series won’t come back to New York for Games 6 or 7.
It’ll already be over.
Today’s game all comes down to AJ. I think we can get to Lackey. If we keep their offense in check, we should win.
In retrospect, announcing that CC was pitching Game 4 and letting him psyched up for it was a great decision. Better than waiting until after the Game 3 loss and making it seem like a ‘do or die’ moment.
Allowed everyone to stay loose
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/12399965
This was clearly written by a Yankee hater. The Phillies are good, but they aren’t better than us. They don’t scare me at all.
omg! greg doyel is picking aginst the yankees in the WS they havent even reached yet?
thats gonna cause panic in the streets of gotham!
“She is just a young troubled girl. Phillips behaved shamefully, he is a disgrace.”
She’s 22, recognized as a grown woman in all 50 states. She’s a disgrace herself. Bedding down a married man.
I stopped reading after this point…
“Offensively, the Yankees reached the fourth inning of Game 4 in a team-wide 3-for-35 slump with runners in scoring position. New York had survived that thanks to an awful lot of Alex Rodriguez, but his hot streak can’t continue. It just can’t. Baseball is about ebbs and flows, and he’s flowing almost as well as anyone has ever flowed in the postseason, but it can’t continue. The odds are against it. Baseball is a coin flip, and A-Rod has come up heads eight games in a row. In the next round we’ll see his tail. Count on that. And if the rest of the Yankees are still doing their 3-for-35 thing, well, there’s always 2010.”
You can’t talk ebbs and flows of hitting and immediately follow that comment by saying ARod will hit his ebb, yet no other player on the team will hit their flow…
Who gives a rip about what some unknown writer on CBSsports.com thinks about the WS outcome?
SJ44,
I’m a long term reader and have only recently started posting a bit. I have a friend/client whose who used to play at AA level with another organization and is friends with quite a few of the NY players. I think your review of the Torre situation is right on the money from the stories I’ve heard and some of the players (only a few) I’ve had the chance to talk with.
As a fan I appreciate most of the Torre years and wish him well.
i like the idea of keeping a power bat on the bench. when they have to pinch run for posada or matsui it leaves a hole behind arod for them to exploit. having a big bat on the bench neutralizes that.
“Hey 50-The Average IQ
Why don’t you go away and raise the average IQ a few points?
If you honestly think Torre didn’t burn out and ruin the careers of Quantrill, Gordon, Sturtze and Proctor check their post-Torre careers. Either haven’t been paying attention or are in denial.”
Correlation doesn’t equate to causation. Gordon had a bum arm long before Torre ever got to him. Quantrill had pitched a ton of innings EVERY year long before Torre ever got to him.
Tanyan Sturtze was a STARTER for Tampa Bay long before Torre ever got to him. And Proctor probably just had a poor work ethic, as it’s very hard to work out when you’re pissy drunk (hello Joba!)
This would be a much more even match up if this was the 08 Phillies.
This years Phillies has more holes. And it’s their pitching.
This will come down to pitching as it usually does. Whoever pitches better wins.
I’m banking on the Yankees with their starters and pen. That Philly pen will blow a game in this series.
You worry about Gaudin though pitching game 4. BUT it may not be a big deal IF they’re up 3-0 or 21. Atleast not to me.
If they’re down 0-3 or 2-1 then you worry.
I take the team with the better pitching/closer in any series.
hmmm…I didn’t watch very much of the NL series, but didn’t the Phillies commit some errors?
I still think Jeter’s attempted steal (and everyone else’s for that matter) was a good move. I thought it got Kazmir rattled, he didn’t look comfortable the whole night.
Yeah, there is no excuse for the sloppy base running, but I am sure that was addressed.
After 12 years, it was time for Torre to leave the Yankees and he probably should’ve left after the 2004 or 2005 seasons. Just a little too much distrust between the dugout and the front office/ownership. I’m not talking Cashman either. He was stuck in the middle and defended Torre over the years until it became apparent that defending Torre to the very end wasn’t in his own best interest as certain Yankee executives wanted him gone.
Bill from NJ
That is the biggest load i’ve read in some time.
Wow. That CBS article is a joke.
Right now, the Yankees have unfinish business with the Angels. Until that’s resolved, I’m not going to deal with any WS predictions that are pro or con for the Yankees.
We’ve got three games (two at home) to win one game. I like the odds and we should rap this up tonight or Saturday at the latest. It doesn’t matter unless we go to game 4 and have to burn CC (as SJ44 pointed out). Should be a fun game tonight watching how they pitch ARod (or don’t). It will be a giant mistake if they decide to hit him…game will be over after that.
I just hope Jorge is batting behind ARod…
That CBS article is a joke! The guy talks about ups and downs. Doesnt that imply that the other Yankee hitters bats will awaken. Brad Lidge has stunk all season and strings together a couple of saves and he and Madsen all of a sudden become the best setup and closer of all time.
8 hours and 58 minutes until Game 5!!!!!!!!
Who is getting excited??????
Crawdaddy .. your 100 percent correct !. Lets finish the Angels off first !.
all those points are correct, i wouldn’t say anything can be learned from picking out certain pitchers whos performances declined after they played for torre.
but it is true that joe was addicted to going with the ‘hot hand; riding whoever’s on a good streak game after game after game until they were exhausted and ineffective, then changing to another horse.
this does not prove in any way that this lead to an overall decline, especially since sturtze, proctor and co had never distinguished themselves anywhere else in thier careers.
when torre retires and sits in the stands to watch the yankees in the WS in 2 or 3 years, people will remember him differently than they do now with him wearing dodger blue.
Lets get it on already ! ARE YOU READY FOR THIS
I’m looking for AJ to step up big in this game, possible 7 innings of one run or less. He’s done this against the Sox in the last series in NY.
Erica – always OPPC
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:02 am
Who is getting excited??????
**********
Count me in
Erica
I am!!!
“when torre retires and sits in the stands to watch the yankees in the WS in 2 or 3 years, people will remember him differently than they do now with him wearing dodger blue.”
I will always remember Torre fondly for his Yankee years and I truly hope he and the Yankee organization resolves their differences so that when he’s retired from baseball, he can have his day in the sun at Yankee Stadium because he’s going to be inducted in the HOF and it’s because of his years as Yankee manager.
me too !
NO RETREAT NO SURRENDER .. THAT THE YANKEE WAY !!
Hopefully AJ stays true-to-form tonight and gets shelled! Would love to see this series extended while the Phillies rest-up for another title win!
Oh Yankees….so close, but hopefully so far away (again!)
Go Angels!!!!
I’m looking for the Yankees to put together and execute a great game plan tonight. They’re ready for this!
Regarding Jeter’s cold: Please let the rest of the team be bathing in BioSafe and wearing hazmat suits in the locker room. The last thing we need is for this great season to end because of the Flu. Take your vitamin C guys.
Think back to this summer’s ASG- remember when Mariano was pitching and they cut to a camera shot of Torre watching Mariano in the dugout??? He looked so sad.
I could not deal with a World Series of that look
Fake Name
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:10 am
Regarding Jeter’s cold: Please let the rest of the team be bathing in BioSafe and wearing hazmat suits in the locker room. The last thing we need is for this great season to end because of the Flu. Take your vitamin C guys.
****
A-Rod was sick too. If this is how A-Rod hits when he is sick I say we should hide his vitamins
“The two teams that finish 162 games with the best record in each league almost never advance to face off in the World Series. The AL’s regular season best vs. the NL’s regular season best hasn’t happened in 14 years, and it won’t happen this season. The Dodgers won 95 games, tops in the National League, but they’re being clocked by the Phillies in the NLCS.”
That’s because the playoffs have a very large amount of randomization to the results. The Yankees were big favorites (75%) over the Twins and small favorites (60%) over the Angels. With those odds, the Yankees only had a 45% chance to reach the world series even though they were clearly the best team in the AL. On the other hand, the Dodgers were much smaller favorites in both of their series. If they had a 60% advantage in one and a 55% advantage in the other, they only had a 33% chance of making the world series. Collectively, there was less than a 15% chance of the two teams with the best records meeting in the world series. And that is why it hasn’t happened in 14 years.
ss jeter
lf damom
1b teixeira
3b rodriguez
dh posada
2b cano
rf swisher
cf cabrera
c molina
Trevor-
I posted GTLU rules at 9:29 this morning. Please read them
If you want to play, submit it later
I think Jorge should DH and Gardner should start in center moving Melky to right. This would let Jorges bat protect Arod. (if not I believe the Angels pitch around Arod and go after a slumping Matsui at least that what i would do) This leaves Girardi with a choice two power hitting “bullets” off the bench to pinch hit for Molina in a late inning at bat. I really believe the protection Posada could provide for Arod bolsters this lineup a great deal. Gardners (2 for 3) speed can irritate Lackey and the defense becomes a whole lot better with Johnny Gardner and Melky.
New thread
Eric you had me at “That’s” .. lol
who wrote that article on cbs sportsline? SO bias, its unbelivable…First off, the National League is less competitve than the AL…..How do you say that Phillies are on a different level than the Angels??
Who is getting excited? I’m getting nervous as always for playoff games. Let’s get it over with today. Until then, I refuse to study the Phillies. Why is it I am not superstitious with anything except baseball? Maybe if I changed how I was sitting when he came to bat Tex would start hitting. Hmmm….
Austinmac-
Take a shower. Don’t ask. Just take a shower
Anyone seen this bs:
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/12399965
—————————————————-
Sure, the Phillies looked tough but I think most of that had to do with who they were playing. Yankees defense will be another story.
If Jorge is the DH and bats fifth the Yankees can always move him out of DH and put him behind the plate. I know the DH would then be eliminated BUT if Molina is batting eigth or ninth (I personally want to see Gardner 9th and in cf) it would mean the pitcher hits in that spot. Girardi can then pinch hit for the pitcher the rest of the game. Keep in mind Swisher Matsui and depends on the situation Hairston (better hitter than Molina) are still on the bench available to pinch hit. Cervelli would also be still available although I doubt Joe would want to use his 3rd catcher up. Guzman is also still available to run.
You mean benching the yankees leading hitter vs. Lackey? (Jorge- .414)
Would you think about subbing Jorge for Hideki?
Or Gardner for Swish (.116)?
Ooops, sorry Mr. October…beat me to the punch!
I’d DH Posada tonight, he’s hotter at the plate than Matsui.
Great story Sam, very well written.
Don’t get too excited after a yankee game, you might get fined for solicitation:
http://bit.ly/s1iA7
:frown:
:happy:
:sick:
:glad: