Report on meetings; Gold Gloves awarded
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- November
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Didn’t want to start a new post just yet, but wanted to top this one with some information about today’s actual GM meetings. It sounds like there wasn’t much more going on in the room than was going on in the lobby.
Major League Baseball’s vice president of baseball operations, Jimmie Lee Solomon, just briefed the media on what was discussed during the morning and afternoon meetings. Remember that most of this is only discussion and idea gathering, no changes can be made without running ideas and proposals through the front office.
• Instant replay. Surprisingly, not a huge topic. Solomon said the GMs were given a report about instant replay, but the report generated very little conversation and very few questions. Remember that this was the first full year of instant replay in baseball. “I think we need to digest what we’ve got,” Solomon said.
• Draft order. There was a discussion about changing the draft order to reflect not only the regular season standings but also the postseason. Basically, the GMs talked about the World Series winner drafting last, the runner-up drafting next-to-last, and so on. This would only affect the last few spots in the draft. There was no discussion of a worldwide draft, of trading draft picks, a forced slotting system or changing the way compensation picks are awarded.
• Umpires. Sounds like everything about umpires was discussed. “I think Commissioner Selig is going to look at the entire umpire structure and he’s going to seek ways to enhance the entire structure,” Solomon said.
• Arizona Fall League. Right now it’s primarily for players Double-A and higher. The GMs talked about changing that to allow more young players into the league.
Again, nothing changed today, this just gives you an idea of some of the things the general managers are thinking and talking about. We’re about to have access to a bunch of GMs in about 30 minutes, so I’m hoping to have some more updates later this afternoon.
———
Mark Teixeira and Derek Jeter were among the American League Gold Glove award winners announced this afternoon.
The complete list:
C Joe Mauer
1B Mark Teixeira
2B Placido Polanco
3B Evan Longoria
SS Derek Jeter
OF Torii Hunter
OF Ichiro Suzuki
OF Adam Jones
P Mark Buehrle
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on Tuesday, November 10th, 2009 at 3:38 pm by Chad Jennings.
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Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Congrats to the Captain & Teix!
One made the other better in 2009
But Jeter is the worst defensive shortstop in the game !!!
Cano > Polanco
It’s not the worst list that the voters have come up with, but that’s not saying a lot.
Hunter got it this year solely on past glory. Guettierez was head and shoulders the best defensive center fielder in the league this year.
There is no chance, none, zilch, zero, zip – that the New York Yankees go into next season with an OF of Melky, Gardner, Swisher. They will not go with two fourth outfielders and Nick Swisher on an everyday basis.
If the Yankees don’t keep Damon then they will use the money they allocated to his signing on a free agent or trade target.
If Bay and Holliday were off the market by the time Damon makes his decision then they will focus on:
Marlon Byrd
Randy Winn
Mike Cameron
Dan Uggla (who they would convert to LF)
Rick Ankiel
or bringing back Xavier Nady.
I’m still mad Robbie didn’t win one. Oh well, his day will come.
Sign me up for Miranda. I like the intangibles.
Hey Papelbon, you have the right to remain silent!
THWACK!!!!!!
You’ve got to be a real Yankee homer to think Cano should have won the GG over Polanco. Polanco was better in almost every defensive category.
Congrats to Jeter and Tex…you have to think this is extremely rewarding for Jeter after all of the age and range discussion early in the season. I remember quite a few heated arguments from folks in here about how Jeter has lost it and we need to start finding options for 2010…seems a little silly now, eh?
Wow. A total of three picks that are even remotely defensible. I’m not entirely sure any of them belongs other than Longoria.
It’s really a shame that the Gold Glove awards don’t choose a LF/CF/RF rather than three OF. Carl Crawford is excellent and gets snubbed once again.
Here’s how each guy did according to UZR/150 (only qualified players included):
C Joe Mauer (N/A)
1B Mark Teixeira (7th)
2B Placido Polanco (1st)
3B Evan Longoria (1st)
SS Derek Jeter (5th)
OF Torii Hunter (4th in CF)
OF Ichiro Suzuki (3rd in RF)
OF Adam Jones (5th in CF)
P Mark Buehrle (N/A)
Not a horrible list, but still not great.
@Joe:
2005,2006 and 2007 he ranked among the worst shortstops in the game at UZR (look it up at fangraphs). That’s when all those guys who try to invent new ways to gauge fielding better stated he was the worst defensive shortstop in the game.
I think it’s safe to say the captain worked on his defense the past two years and it paid off. Now he’s among the defensively better shortstops in the league and having Teixeira at first obviously helps, too.
Still a joke that Franklin Gutierrez didn’t win a gold glove in the outfield.
C Joe Mauer – fine
1B Mark Teixeira – debateable but he deserves it
2B Placido Polanco – no
3B Evan Longoria – hahaha NO
SS Derek Jeter – had a good year but does not deserve a GG
OF Torii Hunter – a million no’s
OF Ichiro Suzuki – ok
OF Adam Jones – eh not so good
P Mark Buehrle – who knows
Tom in NJ-
I love the Domingo Jean reference last thread!!!!
He reminded me of Pascual Perez with screwed up teeth.
The GG selections were pretty cut and dry. The only change I would have had was at second base and go with Aaron Hill, but Polanco was in the top three in almost every second base category. It’s also hard to argue against a guy that makes only 2 errors in over 150 games at 2nd base.
“I remember quite a few heated arguments from folks in here about how Jeter has lost it and we need to start finding options for 2010…seems a little silly now, eh?”
No complaints from me but I wouldn’t use the gold glove to prove defensive prowess. They say you win it with your bat as much as your glove.
Given the way Derek hit he was fine at short, and his defense has improved, but I think Izturis had the better year defensively.
Anyway, the AL isn’t full of defensive wizards at SS right now.
Adam Jones just moved up another notch on his way to greatness
Captain was a surprise! congrats!
Teixeira at 1st base is debatable? Against who? Lou Gehrig? Don Mattingly?
Mr. October -
Quick Trivia: Do you remember who the Yankees traded Domingo Jean for?
posada was screwed
Pat
With Adam Jones, Nick Markakis, and Felix Pie I think Baltimore has the best, young defensive outfield in baseball.
Really it should have been:
C Mauer
1B Teixeira
2B Cano
3B Beltre
SS Andrus
OF Ichiro
OF Guitiurrez (HUGE SNUB – one of the best defensive OF’s in a long time)
OF Crawford
I’m convinced Cano and Tex had great years despite their UZR. It’s been established that UZR is only worthwhile if you look at it in 3 year or more samples. Even the creators of UZR admit that it stinks.
My initial feelings were a bit wrong, Longoria and Polanco are worthy choices but I think Beltre and Cano deserve it more.
Patrick – you have no idea what you are talking about. Jones was unbelievable in the field. Tex was easily the best defensive 1B by far. Longoria is a great 3B too. the only problem I have is with Hunter. I don’t know about Buehrle either. I think they just wanted to give him some kind of award after he got a perfect game.
“3B Evan Longoria – hahaha NO”
um…yes.
“seems a little silly now, eh?”
Not really. Jeter had a solid year defensively, but Andrus was much better.
Jeter has been pretty lousy defensively the past several years.
Jeter even worked hard this past offseason to improve his range, especially to his left. It paid off.
GreenBeret7
November 10th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Teixeira at 1st base is debatable? Against who? Lou Gehrig? Don Mattingly?
____________________________________________________________
Hehe
UZR is a helpful tool. But it’s not the only thing that should be used to decide fielding awards.
And it’s pretty much accpeted that UZR is useless for 1st baseman.
“Teixeira at 1st base is debatable? Against who? Lou Gehrig? Don Mattingly? ”
I said he deserved it didn’t I? You could make a case for Morales, he had a great year at the plate and in the field.
Chip,
Actually that would be Seattle. Gutierrez and Ichiro alone would make it the best defensive OF in baseball. You don’t even need 3 OF, just those two guys.
Chip-
Hmmm thats tough. I think him and #6 Steve (I cant play third only second) Sax were linked some how but im not totally sure. Who was it?
GB7-
Other than we all like Tex, exactly why did he deserve the GG over, say, Paul Konerko? Miguel Cabrera? Kendry Morales?
Not a knock on Tex but there are some other pretty good fielding first basemen in the league.
Jeter wasnt lousy in 2008; he was basically average. His work to improve started after the 2007 season. He improved in 08 and improved more in 09.
Jeremy,
Jones was a middle of the pack CF. There is no way he deserves the award.
“I’m convinced Cano and Tex had great years despite their UZR. It’s been established that UZR is only worthwhile if you look at it in 3 year or more samples. Even the creators of UZR admit that it stinks.”
Lies. It’s more useful in 3-year samples, sure, but so are offensive statistics.
Tex had one big year, UZR-wise, in 2008. Otherwise he’s been right around average. Cano had one big year, too, in 2007, and has otherwise stunk. Over that three-year sample, both are within one run of 0.
Polanco did make just 2 errors all year, plus he is a previous winner, past winners sometimes get a few extra votes for that. Cano had a great year, probably gets to more balls than Polanco, and makes more spectacular plays, but it is hard to argue with the choice.
BryanHoch Teixeira: “Winning a 3rd Gold Glove means a lot to me, especially when good defense helped our entire team reach the ultimate goal.”
6 minutes ago from Power Twitter
Chip, Baltimore is going to be a force in aboout 3-4 years…They’re loaded with power arms…They need to get strong up the middle ( infield wise )….Gutierrez could have beaten out Tori
BryanHoch Jeter: “I’ve always taken a great deal of pride in my defense. Being honored with a Gold Glove is an accomplishment I will never overlook.”
7 minutes ago from Power Twitter
“Gutierrez could have beaten out Tori”
or anyone else. He was the most valuable defensive player in baseball.
“Lies. It’s more useful in 3-year samples, sure, but so are offensive statistics.
Tex had one big year, UZR-wise, in 2008. Otherwise he’s been right around average. Cano had one big year, too, in 2007, and has otherwise stunk. Over that three-year sample, both are within one run of 0. ”
As someone previously said, UZR is worthless for 1B. Cano had a “bad” year according to UZR this year but that really doesn’t mean much. I watched every game and he was great.
Hey, Cano is an outstanding second baseman.
That said, if the gold glove is given only on the basis of fielding only sheer “homerism” would say Cano should have received it instead of Polanco.
12 errors for Cano and 2 errors for Polanco.
Ken Rosenthal: #Padres only open to dealing stars for right price http://j.mp/38QKmr
___
Isnt that what the indians said about Martinez and Lee? The only thing they got worthwhile from either of those deals is Masterson. No one takes these people seriously when they say this.
“And it’s pretty much accpeted that UZR is useless for 1st baseman.”
Do you have any information to support this? I don’t see why it would be any worse for measuring a first baseman’s range. Of course, it doesn’t factor in the other things a first baseman does (picking balls out of the dirt), but I doubt that would change things significantly enough to make Tex the best fielding 1B in the league.
Pat M.
November 10th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Chip, Baltimore is going to be a force in aboout 3-4 years…They’re loaded with power arms…They need to get strong up the middle ( infield wise )….Gutierrez could have beaten out Tori
———————————————————
i heard the same thing wit the rays
they never get by the yankees with our money & now our farm system
if joba,hughes ever become great look out
As someone previously said, UZR is worthless for 1B. Cano had a “bad” year according to UZR this year but that really doesn’t mean much. I watched every game and he was great.
____
UZR IS USELESS!!!
No one that watches Mark Teixeira believes he isnt worthy of the GG. He saved so many errors from his co infielders AND mastered 1B by himself.
i dont know why uzr even exists.
Ok let me revise what i said previously, this is what it should have been:
C – Mauer
1B – Teixeira
2B – Polanco
SS – Andrus
3B – Beltre
OF – Gutierrez
OF – Ichiro
OF – Crawford
Gutierrez deserves the GG the most but you could pick another few guys to fill in those last two OF spots.
“As someone previously said, UZR is worthless for 1B.”
UZR is *not* worthless for 1B. That someone was very wrong. And as to its one claimed weakness — digging throws out of the dirt — other folks measure that, and Tex is about average.
“Cano had a “bad” year according to UZR this year but that really doesn’t mean much. I watched every game and he was great.”
The fact that Cano has had four “bad” years out of five means he’s probably a bad 2B. Your watching every game doesn’t mean anything unless you’re also watching every *other* 2B in the league just exactly as closely. And probably keeping very good notes.
If Teixeira didn’t win a Gold Glove I think his fellow infielders should have chipped in and bought him one.
And I don’t mean the Rawling’s award version.
I mean an actual baseball glove made of solid gold.
BryanHoch Jeter: “I’ve always taken a great deal of pride in my defense. Being honored with a Gold Glove is an accomplishment I will never overlook.”
—————————————————————-
‘… particularly when it’s time for my new contract and people want to discuss my future in the OF.’
Cano did not deserve to win a gold glove. I think he really improved defensively this year. But Polanco and Hill are both better than Cano defensively.
Teixeira is a great fielding 1st basemen it is well deserved. He always make very strong and accurate throws and he is the best in scooping balls from the dirt. He really did save Jeter and A-Rod on a lot of throwing errors this year.
Congrats to the Captain and Tex. The individual awards,after this Postseason, are especially gratifying. Here’s to Jeter’s MVP.
Wade Taylor, Scott Kamieniecki and Jeff Johnson
The fact that Cano has had four “bad” years out of five means he’s probably a bad 2B. Your watching every game doesn’t mean anything unless you’re also watching every *other* 2B in the league just exactly as closely. And probably keeping very good notes.
___
This argument only works if UZR compares one second baseman to another, which it doesnt. Watch Cano and Tex everyday does mean we see how good they are, not compared to others but just them. If some ’stat’ says cano is bad at 2nd, that stat is not accurate because we all saw him. 12 errors and MANY spectacular plays.
“Hokiehill November 10th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Congrats to Jeter and Tex…you have to think this is extremely rewarding for Jeter after all of the age and range discussion early in the season. I remember quite a few heated arguments from folks in here about how Jeter has lost it and we need to start finding options for 2010…seems a little silly now, eh?”
I’ll admit I was one of those guys that was worried about Jeter…he obviously was healthy this season and was great at the plate but Tex helped him out a lot defensively…..the Tex signing was so huge
The Yankees have more November wins than the Knicks, Nets, Giants and Jets COMBINED.
____
Because the yankees are better than all of those teams combined.
There is no chance, none, zilch, zero, zip – that the New York Yankees go into next season with an OF of Melky, Gardner, Swisher. They will not go with two fourth outfielders and Nick Swisher on an everyday basis.
If the Yankees don’t keep Damon then they will use the money they allocated to his signing on a free agent or trade target.
If Bay and Holliday were off the market by the time Damon makes his decision then they will focus on:
Marlon Byrd
Randy Winn
Mike Cameron
Dan Uggla (who they would convert to LF)
Rick Ankiel
or bringing back Xavier Nady.
=========================================================
if those are the alternatives to Melky, Gardner Swisher in the OF then I’ll keep the 3 stinky guys (aka 4th outfielders)the yankees currently have thank you
“This argument only works if UZR compares one second baseman to another, which it doesnt. ”
Uhh…what do you think it does?
Gold glove doesn’t have anything with whayt you did @ the plate, there is the silver sluger award for what you do @ the plate, gg is only what you do on defense!!!
Teixiera deserved it hands down. He threw out a runner at the plate from his knees on a ground ball, his arm and glove are awesome. It’s called GOLD GLOVE not GOLD CLEATS, so spare me the babbling about range and UZR
I’m biased toward Tex, but Rafael Palmiero was robbed!!!!!
“This argument only works if UZR compares one second baseman to another, which it doesnt. Watch Cano and Tex everyday does mean we see how good they are, not compared to others but just them. If some ’stat’ says cano is bad at 2nd, that stat is not accurate because we all saw him. 12 errors and MANY spectacular plays.”
Clearly, you don’t understand how UZR works.
UZR is kind of right about Cano he doesn’t have the greatest range at 2nd there are balls to his left that get by him that could be caught. He has a very strong arm and quick release he is great at turning doubleplays though.
Adam,
I think you’re correct when you point out that range is only a small factor of what makes a good defensive 1st baseman.
As I mentioned earlier, UZR is a good tool. But it doesnt tell us how well a 2nd baseman or SS turns a double play. It also doesnt tell us how strong someone’s arm is.
UZR is just 1 piece to the puzzle.
Mike F. worships at the altar of Jimmy the Greek
Cano got robbed big time.
Cano makes that play to his right better than any second baseman in the game Hill,Utley,Polanco and Orlando included…hopefully next year he gets his uniform a lil dirtier going to his left and he’ll get a guanta de oro
Chip,
I hope you’re right in saying there is no chance the team starts the season with an OF of Melky, Gardner & Swisher. Like Joey’s Poodle, I’m hoping for a real CF. But in my case I would go more global and say I’m hoping for an actual OF. Not this make-do conglomeration. Wondering who you see out there in 2010?
Joey’s Poodle,
I’m one of the old (now disassembled) gang you might have seen in recent months on RAB and WW, and this is the handle I use now. If you recognize me correctly by style and consistent opinions from the old place, I’ll fess up.
Too many writers see Cano as a hot dog. Therefore no GG.
The Fielding Bible Awards provide a pretty good alternative to Gold Gloves. Check them out for comparison:
http://fieldingbible.com/
Elvis Andrus should have won at SS. And Teixeira had an overrated year at first base defensively. And I am a die hard Yankees fan by the way.
I don’t watch Polanco everyday, but I am biased in favor of Cano. Polanco may be good, but Robbie is a natural at 2B. Now if he could just work on that RISP issue…..
gold glove awards have always been controversial. zone ratings are also.
i’m happy that the yankees are a better defensive team than they have been in the past.
teixeira was a huge improvement, cano is excellent.
you’d think alex would be better at third base since he was a repeat gold glove shortstop.
he doesn’t seem much better than an average third baseman and that seems kind of underachieving.
the outfield defense isn’t great on the corners, but it was adequate.
posada despite his haters is league average.
the only way for the yankees to really upgrade their defense is to make a change in the outfield.
if damon leaves they have a chance to do that. otherwise, the yankees are pretty set on defense.
dont worry, gardner at the very least will not be starting unless you want someone who stands at the plate and stares at 90 mph fastballs down the middle and then slaps at the bad pitches because he is about to strike out.
“Elvis Andrus should have won at SS. And Teixeira had an overrated year at first base defensively. And I am a die hard Yankees fan by the way.”
Are you sure?
Patrick -
I agree with your take on Seattle but they don’t have the youth that the O’s trio has.
Mr. October –
Xavier Hernandez, eventually replaced as the Yankee closer when they brought in Lee Smith – makes you really appreciate Mo when you think back to who we had at the end of games back then.
Joe
November 10th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Cano got robbed big time.
*********************
shhhhh…that’s appearently the minority opinion on here today.
Really what was so overrated about Tex at first base. Please provide some examples.
“you’d think alex would be better at third base since he was a repeat gold glove shortstop.”
randy, which Alex Rodriquez have you been watching? Alex is a very good 3B. He was better last year when he didn’t have a bum hip, but he can still pick it. He also has a very good throwing arm. He’s even improved on popups. Give the guy his props.
It’s the coaches and managers that vote for the Gold Gloves in their league only. In Teixeira;s case, I’m sure that they remember the plays against their teams, and just as importantly, the number of errors that he saved the rest of the infield. He’s the best I’ve seen at digging throws out of the dirt, he’s quick and his ability to range far to his right and still cover the line had a lot to do with his selection. It also allowed Cano to play furth to his right. What I did notice was that there were many less hits up the middle than in previous years. Mick Kellaher should get a lot of credit for infield positioning.
In short, Teixeira made the infield better.
chip-
whats the answer to your trivia question?
Its driving me nuts!
I’m not a Gardner fan….he looks like a Triple A lifer or just a late inning pinch runner
most agree that polanco and hill were better, but to say cano was bad is just not true.
Some other worthy GG candidates:
Nick Markakis
Denard Spahn
Aaron Hill
BTW Is A-Rod geting an MRI soon on his hip to make 100% sure he will not need further labrum surgery on the hip?
Sorry sab:
Winn-done. will lucky to get a minor league job
Uggla-can’t field, strikes out.
Cameron-another strikeout machine
Nady with 2 TJ surgeries will not be able to make outfield throws.
Ankiel going downhill both offensively and defensively.
There might be so many nontendered arbitration eligible players that the FA ranks might swell to some 250 players!!!
He’s the best I’ve seen at digging throws out of the dirt ***since Mattingly***
It also allowed Cano to play ***further*** to his right
“Some other worthy GG candidates:
Nick Markakis”
Oh, he is definitely worthy. He is wicked hot. He should be a Yankee. He’s too gorgeous to be an Oriole. Oh Wait, are you talking about his fielding? Oh, okay. Yeah, he can catch a baseball..I think. I haven’t really noticed.
Set up man Xavier Hernandez.
He sucked. He sucked real bad.
if damon is convinced by boras that he will get 4 years and posada money somewhere, he will not be playing for the yankees next year. yankees offer 2 tops.
“I’m not a Gardner fan….he looks like a Triple A lifer or just a late inning pinch runner”
Do you feel the same about Melky or Ellsbury? They all hit about the same.
how many years before adam jones is a free agent?
In the AFL, today, Brandon Laird is 0-2 with an RBI and a walk. He made his first error of the season today. He’s playing first base.
Colin Curtis is 3-3 with a run scored and an RBI double.
Chip-
Thats right!!!!!
Wow the Xman!!!!
I think thats when the YANKEES traded Stanky the Yankee as well!!
Good trivia!
Not that Cano is bad, but only a homer would deny that others were better.
Not bad, but not the best.
Gotta agree with Jimmy, it’s pretty ridiculous Gutierrez didn’t win a gold glove over Hunter. As good as Ichiro is, and he deserved the gold glove, he had 317 putouts to Franklin’s 445. Pretty ridiculous.
Could be that coaches and mgrs see Cano as a hot dog, therefore no GG.
Chip,
Sorry, I was just evaluating them based on defense. It’s true, the O’s could have a very dangerous and athletic team very soon.
randy,
I agree completely, A-rod’s defense at third has been somewhat disappointing.
Bill,
I prefer the fielding bible to UZR but I don’t have the 2009 edition. UZR is an extremely flawed stat in my opinion.
Markakis and Gutierrez made too many errors to be considered for a GG.
Mike F. defending Jimmy the Greek because Jimmy had a black limo driver whom he took naps with and their heads touched.
You can’t make it up.
“he’s quick and his ability to range far to his right and still cover the line had a lot to do with his selection. It also allowed Cano to play furth to his right.”
I’m not arguing that Tex isn’t a good fielder, because he is.
But I just don’t buy into this theory that Tex could play so much farther to his right than most other first basemen.
If that were the case, shouldn’t it show up in his assist totals? He only had 49 – much lower than any other good fielding AL first baseman.
CR1
If Damon doesn’t come back, and Bay and Holliday are off the table – my 2010 OF would be:
LF – Winn
RF – Swisher
CF – ???? Melky, Gardner and Austin Jackson will battle it out in spring training.
I might look into what Magglio wants but I assume he’s going to want at least what Abreu got. I would also look at Ankiel who could replace a lot of the LH power that they might lose this winter and he’s a very good defensive player, though he strikes out a ton.
I stay as far away from Chone Figgins as I can.
That’s just without creating any trades – but for trade targets I would look at:
Connor Jackson (Arizona) – spent most of the year on the DL but I think the Yankees could catch something with him the same way the White Sox did with Carlos Quentin
Scott Hairston (A’s) – more of a fourth OF in my mind but I’ve always liked him and his power bat and think he would be a great bat off the bench for this squad and could be a super utlity OF type.
Brad Hawpe (Rox) – Colorado wants to move him and he didn’t play well for them down the stretch but I honestly like him better than Matt Holliday (in fact if the Yankees could swing a deal that would get them Hawpe and Clint Barmes I would be thrilled)
Laura – How long ’til Spring Training 2010?
November 10th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
“Some other worthy GG candidates:
Nick Markakis”
Oh, he is definitely worthy. He is wicked hot. He should be a Yankee. He’s too gorgeous to be an Oriole. Oh Wait, are you talking about his fielding? Oh, okay. Yeah, he can catch a baseball..I think. I haven’t really noticed.
____________________________________________________________
Considering the fact that Markakis was mentioned earlier this morning in the GG conversation, you held out pretty long before making a comment
You can’t compare putouts by a center fielder to putouts by a right fielder.
Mr. October, that IS a cool story. I liked Sam Militello…..Wade Taylor was also in that crop and he later became a scout for the Yankees. I think this was the group that came a year or so before Pettitte. Bob Tewksbury was another former Yank – he ended up having a fine career.
Bodh, I’m rooting hard for Jackson, but I don’t think he’s ready. However, Cash glowed about him yesterday, so maybe he’s closer than we think. I would still send him down to AAA for the year, but I don’t think there’s any doubt that Gardner /Melky duo is just a placewarmer for Ajax.. I wonder how much patience (answer: none) fans will have for him whenever he does come up. Fans want to win RIGHT NOW, but unless we want to turn back into the 80’s Yankees, they’re going to have to live with the growing pains. Jeter, Bernie and co. had it easy because the team stank when they came up – fans were willing to be patient because they had already waited a long time and they could see the enormous promise the kids had. That is no longer going to be the case……unfortunately.
October –
Xavier Hernandez, Lee Smith, Steve Farr, Steve Howe….I’m having nightmares tonight….
I’m confused, does UZR take into consideration a players laziness in “trying” to get to a ball but not really going all out? (kidding)
tex’s friend
November 10th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
if damon is convinced by boras that he will get 4 years and posada money somewhere, he will not be playing for the yankees next year. yankees offer 2 tops.
____________________________________________________________
The fact that Boras is comparing Damon’s contract to Posada’s and is bringing up Jeter’s future contract really bugs me. Maybe its just me but I think the homegrown guys deserve more respect…..
pat
November 10th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
BryanHoch Teixeira: “Winning a 3rd Gold Glove means a lot to me, especially when good defense helped our entire team reach the ultimate goal.”
6 minutes ago from Power Twitter
====
applause emoticon.
That’s it Teix – & continue to remind everyone that we’re MLB Daddy
.
“The Fielding Bible Awards provide a pretty good alternative to Gold Gloves. Check them out for comparison:
http://fieldingbible.com/ ”
i had my first big blog fight with hmmm back in early blog days.
the problem with the fielding bible back then was that it was very subjective.
the problem is no one knows who the people are who actually rate each and every play on video. they are in effect anonymous official scorers .
they are probably dewan interns.
the problem for someone like derek jeter the dewan interns know who they are rating. dewan and james are very biased towards jeter simply because he’s a challenge to them that clutch and intangibles do indeed exist.
they say they don’t. bottom line is they go out of their way to fixate on jeter. the interns know it. therefore it’s a subjective system that is made to look objective, and it isn’t.
Ken Rosenthal: #Padres only open to dealing stars for right price http://j.mp/38QKmr
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as opposed to just giving them away ala Cleveland Indians..
Patrick -
Throw in Wieters behind the dish and Roberts and Izturis (not young players but outstanding defensive players) and if that team could get any pitching at all they would be a force.
If the O’s were to add maybe two pitchers and a player like Beltre at 3rd they could easily push for third place in the East.
“I prefer the fielding bible to UZR but I don’t have the 2009 edition. UZR is an extremely flawed stat in my opinion.”
Most would disagree with you.
http://ussmariner.com/2009/03/.....ing-bible/
Gardner made improvements his swing still needs some work but it is a lot better than when he first came up last year. He doubled his at bats this year from last year and went from hitting 228 last year to hitting 270. He had a good obp and stole 26 bases and led the team with 6 triples and played solid defense. He showed he belongs in the major leagues as a 4th outfielder. We’ll see if he can become into an everyday player and turn into an Ellsbury or Shane Victorino type player. Or he might just be a solid 4th outfielder.
The fact that the Yankee pitchers led the league in strikeouts and and were 12th in the league in groundouts would help explain the low number of infield assists.
Elvis Andrus should have won at SS. And Teixeira had an overrated year at first base defensively. And I am a die hard Yankees fan by the way
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then you didn’t view many yankee games this year. Or you’re ignorant.
Tex had an overrated year defensively??? wow.
imo if the scouts say ajax is almost ready he is up very soon
i just dont see us going with melky,gardner/ajax,swisher
no power
maybe we get a lf & let melky/gardner/swisher fight for cf.
it would not supprise me to see us get holliday or bay or trade for an o.f.
patrick-
alex has had a lot on his plate .
maybe with his hip better and the postseason monkey off his back he can concentrate more on improving his defense at third base.
he’s not bad. it’s just with his tools you’d think he would wow you there more often.
Tex’s assist #’s are prob lower because he routinely made that play his self and not flipped the ball to the pitcher covering 1b…
Tino on with Kay
Yankee Trader
November 10th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Some other worthy GG candidates:
Nick Markakis
Denard Spahn
Aaron Hill
BTW Is A-Rod geting an MRI soon on his hip to make 100% sure he will not need further labrum surgery on the hip?
Sorry sab:
Winn-done. will lucky to get a minor league job
Uggla-can’t field, strikes out.
Cameron-another strikeout machine
Nady with 2 TJ surgeries will not be able to make outfield throws.
Ankiel going downhill both offensively and defensively.
There might be so many nontendered arbitration eligible players that the FA ranks might swell to some 250 players!!!
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yankee trader – thats what i said if those are my choices i’d rather keep melky, gardner and swish – as bad as that OF would be it would be much worse if we had any of the other players mentioned….heck if i’m forced to go after mike cameron, randy winn or rick ankiel – i’d much rather just keep johnny damon..
Alex is above league average at third but he doesn’t have the greatest range at the hot corner…i think he’ll be improved next season if his hip is sound
Gardner has a lot of work to to be compared to Victorino and Ellsbury. Right now, he’s got a chance to be what Scott Posodniek is with the White Sox. If he doesn’t fix that swing and learn to bunt, he won’t even be that.
randy l.,
You really think the hundreds of people across the country BIS hires to analyze games and record data have a bias against Derek Jeter? The company sells their data to major league teams among other big clients. Do you really think it’s in Dewan’s interest to rig this data to prove a point?
“The fact that the Yankee pitchers led the league in strikeouts and and were 12th in the league in groundouts would help explain the low number of infield assists.”
Valid point, and it gets you part of the way there, but not nearly all the way, IMO.
For instance, Lyle Overbay had 102 assists. Teixeira had 49. Yet the Yanks had only 80 more strikeouts total than did the Blue Jays.
Tex’s glove was gold but his bat was chaff in April, October and November.
He saved errors but Jeter, A-Rod and Matsui saved him from being the goat.
GreenBeret
Well, for CF only, the closest to Franklin was Mike Cameron at 404. And the only reason he made 7 errors is because Gutierrez gets to so many balls that your average outfielder does not. That’s not even ridiculous highlight reel types either which don’t go for errors. That includes mundane every day plays. Errors are a very poor evaluation for outfielders. Manny Ramirez only had 4 errors. I think it’s universally agreed that Jermaine Dye is a bad outfielder, for instance, and he only committed 5 errors.
Mike
November 10th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Elvis Andrus should have won at SS. And Teixeira had an overrated year at first base defensively. And I am a die hard Yankees fan by the way.
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22 errors won’t win very many Gold Gloves at shortstop. Lead Gloves and Rag Arm Awards, maybe.
“Gardner has a lot of work to to be compared to Victorino and Ellsbury. Right now, he’s got a chance to be what Scott Posodniek is with the White Sox. If he doesn’t fix that swing and learn to bunt, he won’t even be that.”
Ellsbury is insanely overrated. The guy had a .720 OPS last year and a .770 OPS this year. Gardner had .724 OPS this year.
Gardner has a lot of work to to be compared to Victorino and Ellsbury. Right now, he’s got a chance to be what Scott Posodniek is with the White Sox. If he doesn’t fix that swing and learn to bunt, he won’t even be that.
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but Tim McCarver said Gardner was the best bunter in the American League.
yes he actually said that
He routinely made that play his self and not flipped the ball to the pitcher covering 1b – I was going to mention that.
Also, does UZR also account for how Tex was able to improve the play of the other infielders? They did have a whole lot more confidence throwing to 1st than in the Giambi era.
“Well, for CF only, the closest to Franklin was Mike Cameron at 404. And the only reason he made 7 errors is because Gutierrez gets to so many balls that your average outfielder does not. That’s not even ridiculous highlight reel types either which don’t go for errors. That includes mundane every day plays. Errors are a very poor evaluation for outfielders. Manny Ramirez only had 4 errors. I think it’s universally agreed that Jermaine Dye is a bad outfielder, for instance, and he only committed 5 errors.”
So Soriano with his 33 errors over the last four seasons as a leftfielder isn’t a good indicator of him being a poor outfielder?
The gold glove awards have always given it to the best overall player of its close. That’s just the way it is
Chip,
Some interesting ideas there that I will have to mull over — I hadn’t thought about Hawpe, for example …
Tex’s glove was gold but his bat was chaff in April, October and November
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first of all, without Tex in the regular season there would have been no October. Considering Tex was clutch in the regular season, i know his lack of production in the post-season was due to irregular playing time and/or inclement weather.
secondly, what does hitting have to do with winning a gold glove? Based on last year, i’ve never seen a better glove at first base
“Most would disagree with you. ”
I like the USSMariner but it’s just one guy saying how UZR is better when BIG SHOCK his website is one of the only websites that publishes UZR.
So are we saying Overbay is twice as good as Tex?
How do you define a putout? Assist?
Adam
November 10th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
“Gardner has a lot of work to to be compared to Victorino and Ellsbury. Right now, he’s got a chance to be what Scott Posodniek is with the White Sox. If he doesn’t fix that swing and learn to bunt, he won’t even be that.”
Ellsbury is insanely overrated. The guy had a .720 OPS last year and a .770 OPS this year. Gardner had .724 OPS this year.
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Let me know when Gardner reaches the .770 OPS level.
:He routinely made that play his self and not flipped the ball to the pitcher covering 1b – I was going to mention that.”
I can’t see that. The claim is Tex makes plays to his right other first basemen can’t reach. OK, let’s assume that is true. Now you’re saying not only does he make those fantastic plays in the hole, he then jumps up and runs to first himself? That doesn’t seem physically possible.
And I watched almost all the games, and didn’t see him do that particular play that much.
Looks like Scott Boras is seeking a Posada-like deal for Johnny Damon. He won’t get one, of course, but he looks like he’s ready to play some hardball.
http://www.i-yankees.com/?p=10420
“So are we saying Overbay is twice as good as Tex? ”
m-
No I’m not saying that. Using Overbay as an example to discuss a very limited point about Tex’s range to his right compared to other first basemen.
“This argument only works if UZR compares one second baseman to another, which it doesnt.”
Yes, that’s exactly what it does.
“Watch Cano and Tex everyday does mean we see how good they are, not compared to others but just them.”
If not compared to others who do the exact same thing they do, what’s the point? Is it a kind of elementary school, E for effort award? Look, I have no doubt that as a human being, as a citizen of Earth, Robinson Cano is an absolutely fantastic, astoundingly great second baseman. He’s much, much better at it than me, for instance. But if you want to know whether he’s “good” as a major league second baseman, it’s probably a good idea to compare him to other major league second basemen. Which is why “I watch him every day” gets you nowhere at all.
“If some ’stat’ says cano is bad at 2nd, that stat is not accurate because we all saw him. 12 errors and MANY spectacular plays.”
And many singles to right that would have been 4-3s if Polanco or Pedroia or Hill were out there instead.
If no Tex then no world series in 2009. Its as simple as that. He saved as many runs as he knocked in.
The best comment of the day was the reason for Tex’s low assist number. He never throws the ball to the pitcher unless it’s absolutely impossible for him to get to first himself.
He commented on this in the spring. When he first came up he noticed that pitchers have trouble catching the ball while running to 1st. He decided it wasnt worth the risk if he can make it himself.
Right now Brett Gardner is Bubba Crosby. He has to show a lot more before he can be considered an every day ball player.
I’m really starting to talk myself into a trade with the Rockies – Something that results in Brad Hawpe in RF for the Yankees. Suggestions? My goal is to land both Hawpe and Clint Barmes (as sort of a super utility guy)
Matsui Hires New Agents !!!
http://assets.nydailynews.com/.....esame5.jpg
“Let me know when Gardner reaches the .770 OPS level.”
Probably (hopefully) won’t ever get the chance to do that with the Yankees.
say what u want about Tex winning the golf glove. All I know is he looks like ozzie smith out there compared to giambi
So your saying that Overbay gets to twice as many balls because he has better range to his right?
Or is number of putouts partially a product of number of balls hit your way?
Serious question, I haven’t seen much of Overbay, so I have very little to go on in the way of comparison.
Why would the Rockies trade Hawpe? He’s fairly cheap for his production and they have a 2011 team option on him.
If no Tex then no world series in 2009. Its as simple as that. He saved as many runs as he knocked in
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yes. In the regular season, even the FEW times Tex didn’t come through in big spots, the outs were LOUD outs
CD
November 10th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Matsui Hires New Agents !!!
http://assets.nydailynews.com/…..esame5.jpg
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I think I might have to keep a copy of that picture, Sesame Street fanatic that I am.
OMG! Love it.
************ BREAKING NEWS **************
Los Angeles of Anaheim outfielder Bobby Abreu has been awarded the presigious Stasi Award for excellence in wall avoidance for the 2009 season.
Abreu, now a six-time Stasi Award winner, issued the following statement through a spokesman:
“Winning the Stasi is very exciting, especially as we celebrate the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall. That was the happiest day of my life and today is another happy day.
I look forward to the day when all the walls will come down. Mr Selig, tear down these walls!!!”
****** END OF STORY — MUST CREDIT NICK IN SF *********
Why would the Rockies trade Hawpe? He’s fairly cheap for his production and they have a 2011 team option on him
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don’t know either, but it is being reported the Rockies are moving him
“So Soriano with his 33 errors over the last four seasons as a leftfielder isn’t a good indicator of him being a poor outfielder?”
No, it’s not. Soriano was actually a good outfielder until his injury last year killed his range. The difference between good and bad range in the field is much greater than the difference between good and bad error-avoiding ability, especially in the outfield where nobody makes more than ten errors a year anyway.
Overbay also routinely plays way off the first base line. He is a very good to great defender, but so is Tex. Whether he or Overbay deserved it really doesn’t matter, we all know that if it is close, the GG usually goes to the better hitter, as little sense as that makes.
At least Tex played more than 15 games at first, which is what Palmeiro did one year he won the Gold Glove.
“Why would the Rockies trade Hawpe? He’s fairly cheap for his production and they have a 2011 team option on him”
They understand that he’s a terrible outfielder, and they have three good outfielders to play.
Oooh. Bill might have a point. How many times have we seen a ball go by a non-diving Cano?
He did actually improve his defense at the wall, but LMAO.
Watching the last few innings of the 22nd game in NY against Minnesota on the MLB channel. Looks like Twins will win this game!!!!
AJ walks five, hits two, and if it wasn’t for a poor route by Damon to an outfield hit he could have left the game leading 1-0.
Hughes comes in to a 1-1 game, top of the 8th, gets two outs, walks the next guy who steals second and scores on a hit by the bottom of the order. Rivera comes in and promptly gives up the 3rd run on a hit by Punto. Terrible job by what is supposed to be our strength-the bullpen.
Now of course the outcome is no different in the Twins losing, but it reminds me of some of the Yankee deficiencies.
We rely on the homer too much and rarely score early giving our starter a lead. Don’t manufacture runs very well and most of the lineup can’t bunt worth a lick.
Bullpen showed its inexperience in the playoffs. IMO, we’ll need another 8th inning setup man, and Robertson isn’t ready to assume that position.
The infield defense shined, the outfield defense is marginal at best, and the arms are neither strong nor accurate. Melky fairly strong but inaccurate.
Well what do you know, A-Rod just hit an A-bomb off Nathan to tie the score, bottom of the 9th. Guess we’re going to win!!! LOL!
Oh Darn, Matsui pops out-doing nothing so far!
Swisher does what he does best, swings on a 3-0 count and flies out for out #2.
Cano grounds out-Extra innings.
If i take a shower now, I bet the yankees win this game!!
The point is, I hope the yankees make the necessary changes to the roster to repeat as WS champs, and put themselves in a position to still get younger, while improving the pitching, defense, and situatinal hitting.
Don’t let Pedroia fool you, the guy dives for balls hit right at him.
Nick FTW!
“They understand that he’s a terrible outfielder, and they have three good outfielders to play.”
Wow, just looked at his UZR and never realized he was such a butcher. I doubt we have anything that would interest the Rockies though.
m-
You are focusing to much on Overbay. I was focusing on Teixeira’s range to his right. Now, UZR does not give Teixeira a plus range factor. But, there are many here who feel that UZR underrates Tex, and that he has great range to his right.
My issue with that is, I don’t believe a first baseman can make a play farther to his right than any other first baseman, and still have time to get back and tag first himself. If he is making a spectacular play far in the hole, he has to throw to the pitcher covering (unless Smoky Burgess is running).
So I looked at Teixeira’s assist totals, and they were extremely low. They aren’t accounted for by strikeouts, because while the Yanks led the league in K’s, the margin wasn’t great enough. And I checked ground out ratios on fangraphs, and they don’t seem to account for it either.
So, I’m just asking where those great plays to the right show up.
“You really think the hundreds of people across the country BIS hires to analyze games and record data have a bias against Derek Jeter? The company sells their data to major league teams among other big clients. Do you really think it’s in Dewan’s interest to rig this data to prove a point?”
adam-
so baseball info solutions is owned by john dewan . correct?
here’s the link :
http://www.baseballinfosolutions.com/ourteam.html
to answer your question, yeah, i think dewan is biased towards jeter.
when you look at the old fielding bible of a few years ago jeter’s numbers were skewed in exactly the way you’d think they would be if there was bias.
for people who haven’t taken the time to read the fielding bible, someone looks at every play jeter makes and give a rating to the ground ball hit in his area.
these viewers rate each ball as soft hit, medium hit , or hard hit. if 25 times a ball in play is rated harder hit than it actually is that could be 25 black marks on jeter’s record. and that’s about how it played out with jeter in the fielding bible.
it’s absurd to say dewan isn’t fixated on jeter because he features him in his books as a player to bash.
the really simple thing is no one knows who the raters are and how they did the rating.
how about some transparency the way it is in an official game?
we know who the official scorer is in a mlb game. with dewan, we get an anonymous scorer. why the secrecy?
i doubt, adam, you’ve even attempted to know anything about who actually rates each individual ball in play. i’d say it’s probably unpaid interns. you’re welcome to tell me who the dewan scorers are if you can.
with your zeal for dewan, maybe it’d be an intern opportunity for you.
matsui,molina,hinske,nady,damon all file for fa
I’m siding with the coach’s & Managers who go by what they see on the field rather than just one more uneeded stat sheet to staisfy the many who never played the game, or better yet don’t really know what signifies a quality ballplayer…..I’ve been saying this for 3 years, trust your eyes and what you see, rather than what you read and hrear from some overpaid talking heads…Stats sheets have just overwhelmed a simple game……
Erin
November 10th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
CD
November 10th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Matsui Hires New Agents !!!
http://assets.nydailynews.com/…..esame5.jpg
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OMG! Love it. I think I might have to keep a copy of that picture, Sesame Street fanatic that I am.
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I recognise Scott Boras on the left and Matsui in the center, but, who’s the scout on the right?
They should file for FA–good for them. The right offers will be there if the Yankees want them back.
Left fielders
Garret Anderson (38) – Type B
Marlon Anderson (36)
Jason Bay (31) – Type A
Emil Brown (35)
Marlon Byrd (32) – Type B
Johnny Damon (36) – Type A
David Dellucci (36)
Cliff Floyd (37)
Joey Gathright (28)
Matt Holliday (30) – Type A
Reed Johnson (33)
Greg Norton (37)
Wily Mo Pena (28)
Manny Ramirez (38) – $20MM player option – Type A
Dave Roberts (38)
Gary Sheffield (41)
Fernando Tatis (35) – Type B
Marcus Thames (33)
Randy Winn (36) – Type B
Center fielders
Rick Ankiel (30)
Rocco Baldelli (28)
Marlon Byrd (32) – Type B
Mike Cameron (37) – Type B
Endy Chavez (32)
Coco Crisp (30)
Darin Erstad (36)
Jeff Fiorentino (27)
Ryan Freel (34)
Joey Gathright (28)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (34)
Reed Johnson (33)
Andruw Jones (33)
Corey Patterson (30)
Scott Podsednik (34)
DeWayne Wise (32)
Right fielders
Jermaine Dye (36) – Type A
Brian Giles (39) – Type B
Vladimir Guerrero (35) – Type B
Joey Gathright (28)
Eric Hinske (32)
Geoff Jenkins (35)
Austin Kearns (30)
Jason Michaels (34)
Xavier Nady (31) – Type B
Randy Winn (36) – Type B
Designated hitters
Hank Blalock (29)
Jason Giambi (39)
Ken Griffey Jr. (40)
Vladimir Guerrero (35) – Type B
Aubrey Huff (33)
Hideki Matsui (36)
Gary Sheffield (41)
Matt Stairs (42)
Mike Sweeney (36)
Jim Thome (39)
Starting pitchers
Brandon Backe (32)
Cha Seung Baek (30)
Miguel Batista (39)
Erik Bedard (31) – Type B
Kris Benson (34)
Paul Byrd (39)
Daniel Cabrera (29)
Chris Capuano (31)
Aroldis Chapman (22)
Bartolo Colon (37)
Jose Contreras (38)
Doug Davis (34) – Type B
Justin Duchscherer (32) – Type B
Adam Eaton (32)
Shawn Estes (37)
Josh Fogg (33)
Jon Garland (30) – Type B
Tom Glavine (44)
Mike Hampton (37)
Rich Harden (28) – Type B
Mark Hendrickson (36)
Livan Hernandez (35)
Rich Hill (30)
Shawn Hill (29)
Tim Hudson (34) – $12MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
Jason Jennings (31)
Jason Johnson (36)
Randy Johnson (46) – Type B
John Lackey (31) – Type A
Braden Looper (35) – $6.5MM mutual option with possible buyout – Type B
Rodrigo Lopez (34)
Noah Lowry (29)
Jason Marquis (31) – Type B
Pedro Martinez (38)
Eric Milton (34)
Brett Myers (29)
Vicente Padilla (32) – Type B
Carl Pavano (34) – Type B
Brad Penny (32)
Odalis Perez (33)
Andy Pettitte (38) – Type B
Joel Pineiro (31) – Type B
Sidney Ponson (33)
Mark Prior (28)
Horacio Ramirez (30)
Jason Schmidt (37)
Ben Sheets (31)
John Smoltz (43)
Brad Thompson (28)
Brett Tomko (37)
Jarrod Washburn (35)
Todd Wellemeyer (31)
Kip Wells (33)
Randy Wolf (33) – Type A
Closers
Mike Gonzalez (32) – Type A
Kevin Gregg (32) – Type A
Fernando Rodney (33) – Type B
Rafael Soriano (30) – Type A
Jose Valverde (32) – Type A
Billy Wagner (38) – $8MM club option with a $1MM buyout (Red Sox agreed not to exercise) – Type A
some free agents
“I’m siding with the coach’s & Managers who go by what they see on the field rather than just one more uneeded stat sheet to staisfy the many who never played the game, or better yet don’t really know what signifies a quality ballplayer…..I’ve been saying this for 3 years, trust your eyes and what you see, rather than what you read and hrear from some overpaid talking heads…Stats sheets have just overwhelmed a simple game……”
The coaches and managers take literally five seconds to try to remember a guy they saw make one great play off of them that year, and failing that, write down the name of a good player. Seriously, look up the piece written today or yesterday by, I think, Larry Stone of the Seattle paper. It’s amazing how poorly run the whole process is, and it really shows in the results.
And if you really think it’s fundamentally a “simple game,” you…are probably running the Royals.
“but Tim McCarver said Gardner was the best bunter in the American League.
yes he actually said that
”
That was just part of the whole FOX jinxing the Yanks. Gardner never got the bunt down.
“I’ve been saying this for 3 years, trust your eyes and what you see, rather than what you read and hrear from some overpaid talking heads…Stats sheets have just overwhelmed a simple game……”
Pat M-
That’s fine, but in the context of the gold glove, where you are comparing one player to another, it doesn’t work.
If we watched every game of every team, in person and not on TV, and paid very close attention to each defensive play, and we were knowledgeable, unbiased and not mistake-prone, I might agree that this would be one way to judge the gold glove.
But we don’t. In fact, neither do the coaches and players. They see their own team, but the other guys only a few times. Bias and reputation can effect their judgment as much as the next fellow’s.
I recognise Scott Boras on the left and Matsui in the center, but, who’s the scout on the right?
That’s Scott’s evil twin
with the coaches and managers voting for gold glove awards and stat heads being into zone ratings and the fielding bible, this is pretty much a hot button issue.
personally i’d go with the coaches and the managers.
i’m still suspicious of stat geeks who seem like they should be in investment banking rather than in baseball.
maybe they just weren’t good enough statistical analysts for the investment world and needed something to do.
congrats to tex and jeter!
quick story from my trip to the parade friday:
i think i was in the same crowd that Josh blogged about/from. 2 garbage trucks covered in fans. just jam packed with nothing but happy people. took lots of pictures, but was too far to recognize most on the floats. the best pictures were the ones of the fans and crown around us…
a few weeks ago, i got over a dozen free beachballs from work. they had the old company logo on them, so they wanted to get rid of them.
i blew up roughly 12 or so. all seemed to drift forward up to Broadway and then made the left, no matter where i tried to hit them initially… i hoped to see one or some of them on TV later that day (turned out I didn’t)
the parade ended, and my buddy and I figured we would get something to eat before heading home. after eating we attempting going onto the PATH train back to Jersey City, where I had parked.
Wasn’t happening. The entrance to the PATH was bascially people gridlock. I got an idea to take the subway uptown a little and then the other PATH from 14th. why not? we weren’t going anywhere anytime soon on the WTC PATH line.
When we got onto what was the E train (i think), it was basically empty. Except for one happy family of Yankee fans, including a little girl bouncing one of the beachballs I had blown up earlier that day. She seemed like she was having a blast bouncing it. It was covered in pro-Yankee graffiti.
And we got back to Jersey City in no time
I said Overbay because that’s what the comparison was.
At any rate, I haven’t seen much of any of the other AL 1B, so I’m not qualified to rate them.
But I do know that Tex played an excellent first base and got to the balls he was supposed to get to for the most part.
Solid, workmanlike body of work, that while not “spectacular” was definitely gold-glove worthy.
I need someone to explain to me why they have a problem with Tex getting this award, especially when it’s generally accepted around the league that Tex is one of the best 1B in the game.
randy,
1) If I remember right, the article you’re talking about in The Fielding Bible that discussed Jeter’s poor range was written by Bill James, not Dewan.
2) The data used to build the Plus/Minus system is also sold to MLB teams and agents. It can’t afford to be biased.
3) The BIS data is collected by paid video scouts.
4) In the past, Jeter’s range was rated as below average by fielding systems using STATS data (the old UZR) as well as BIS data (Plus/Minus). Are both companies biased against Derek Jeter?
And here is James’ article from the Fielding Bible. It doesn’t bash Jeter at all. Merely, uses the data to compare him to Adam Everett and argue that Derek Jeter is not a Gold Glove caliber shortstop, which he isn’t.
http://www.billjamesonline.net...../jeter.asp
http://tinyurl.com/yesfpxy
I give up….But I often wonder what kind of zone rating the great Mark Belanger would have been getting ???
I wonder how Cash voted?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4642344
How does Bill James reconcile the fact he works for the Red Sox with his other, more famous career?
m-
Just to be clear, I don’t have a problem with Teixeira winning the gold glove. He is a fine defensive first baseman.
I don’t think he is head and shoulders above the competition, though, as some do, and I wouldn’t have been outraged if another first baseman had won it. I think the top AL defensive first basemen are tightly bunched.
The narrow issue was the amount of range to the right, compared to others. On that, I think the jury is still out, and given that, I’m inclined to go with tools like UZR or +/- as being the best tools we have, flawed as they may be.
You can’t go by what some pizza faced stat geek that weighs 275 pounds to determine who can or should get to a ball. It doesn’t take in to consideration, the batter, defensive positioning, condition of the field, weather, type of pitch or location.
when are people going to learn that UZR != Gold Glove.
Even the guys that invented the UZR stat admit it sucks.
M, I thought Tex was definitely spectacular; he’s a phenomenal 1B.
And just ignore range and uzr and whatnots for a bit.
If this were the NBA, Tex would be the MVP because one of the criteria used is “does he make his teammates better?”
(This season, Jeter made a career-low eight errors… http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4642325 )
And in Tex’s case, it’s a resounding “YES!”
So, my vote goes to Mark Teixiera.
betsy
November 10th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
M, I thought Tex was definitely spectacular; he’s a phenomenal 1B.
This is TRUE
Jeter was Awesome too.
“You can’t go by what some pizza faced stat geek that weighs 275 pounds to determine who can or should get to a ball.”
When I run one of these defensive measurement companies, I’ll only hire clear complexioned long distance runners, just to keep you happy.
WYH,
For the record I wouldn’t have a problem with it either. Unless it was something stoopid like giving it to Ortiz.
“And if you really think it’s fundamentally a “simple game,” you…are probably running the Royals.”
no bill-
i think pat m means that baseball is a beautiful game and that too much over analysis from people who never played the game is just overkill.
you’re saying bill that people like dewan and bill james know more about baseball than girardi and his coaches and also about every other coaching staff in the league.
if that were true , i don’t see any problem in having a team with bill james or dewan as the manager or coaches. put their money where their mouth is. or yours.
i think a bill james/ dewan run team would be lucky if it could beat the royals.
to me , statistical analysis , is a nice way into the game for people that haven’t played much. even when i agree with it’s principles, it’s a no brainer. things like walk a lot.
thanks bill james. we never knew that.
i think complicated stats have their place, but i also think that sabermetrics is simplistic and easy to beat by baseball lifers or people like pat m who played at high levels of pro ball.
“It doesn’t take in to consideration, the batter, defensive positioning, condition of the field, weather, type of pitch or location.”
UZR uses the base/out state to take into consideration positioning. The other things you mentioned probably have a very insignificant effect on any given play for a fielder.
“pizza faced stat geek”
Amen
speaking of pizza i just ordered a large shrimp from little italy
the best you will ever have
brick oven & the juices run down yer arms
absolutely the perfect taste
Forget the hot stove and the gold gloves!
The Stasi Award!
That’s what this game we love is all about.
Nice one Nick.
“you’re saying bill that people like dewan and bill james know more about baseball than girardi and his coaches and also about every other coaching staff in the league.”
Of course it’s true. It’s why the Brian Cashmans and Theo Epstiens of the world makes the big decisions and get to spend the big bucks.
Really, the problem is ignorance and arrogance in the whole stats vs. scouts debate. Randy is showing both right here. Most people that read even a little bit about baseball realize it makes sense to use both statistical and subjective (scouting) analysis when making decisions and that’s the model the best teams follow.
Awesome. Both are well deserved.
Adam
November 10th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
“It doesn’t take in to consideration, the batter, defensive positioning, condition of the field, weather, type of pitch or location.”
UZR uses the base/out state to take into consideration positioning. The other things you mentioned probably have a very insignificant effect on any given play for a fielder.
————————————————————
So, you don’t think a wet field, a pitch that’s supposed to be inside, but, goes outside and hit the other way is an infrequent occurance? If so, you have a lot to learn.
http://espn.go.com/blog/SweetS.....scratching
So apparently we’ve been talking about the wrong 1B. We should’ve been discussing Kevin Youkilis.
I know nothing of this game that you speak of but the fact that a portly Venezuelan man can win the prestigious Stasi award speaks volumes.
I may just go out and write another double album in his honor.
Even though he played exactly half of a regular season’s worth of games at 1B.
I guess the apple doesn’t fall too far from the Bill James’ tree.
“And here is James’ article from the Fielding Bible. It doesn’t bash Jeter at all. Merely, uses the data to compare him to Adam Everett and argue that Derek Jeter is not a Gold Glove caliber shortstop, which he isn’t.
http://www.billjamesonline.net…../jeter.asp”
adam-
you seem like a reasonable guy.
doesn’t it strike you as odd that someone who is handing out objective stats to all of baseball goes out of his way to include a jeter against everett article.
why not just send out the stats without editorial comment.
when i read old fashioned box scores, someone isn’t saying nice season by cano , but pedroia is better.
just give me the numbers.
i’ll make up my own mind.
dewan and james don’t just hand out stats. your link shows quite nicely the bias and agenda they have.
i distrust dewan and james precisely because they have all kinds of baseball opinions and don’t give just the facts or numbers.
it isnt that hard
you sign the players with the best stats
how hard was it to sign cc,tex,burnett
or lackey,etc???
if you want the yankees to get better in lf & pitching,etc… you sign bay,matsui & lackey & we win # 28 in 2010
165 million,15 million each for lackey & bay & 10 million for matsui
payroll at 205 million wich is the same as 2009
“So, you don’t think a wet field, a pitch that’s supposed to be inside, but, goes outside and hit the other way is an infrequent occurance? If so, you have a lot to learn.”
I doubt a wet field has a statistically significant impact on a hitter’s ability to field his zones over the course of the season. That’s why you use large samples (the creator of UZR, who was hired by the Cardinals based on the system, suggests using a 3 yr average). I also doubt a fielder is counting on a pitch to go inside so much that he can’t get to a ground ball the other way in his zone because he’s so surprised.
“doesn’t it strike you as odd that someone who is handing out objective stats to all of baseball goes out of his way to include a jeter against everett article.”
Bill James had nothing to do with the stat. He merely used it to write the article.
Neyer probably thinks Youk should have won both the 3B and 1B GG awards
Is it that hard to believe that a 1B that is capable of switching to 3B midseason without any serious issues is the best 1B in the league?
Statistics have their place, but no one can tell me that Teixeira wasn’t the best first baseman out there this season. Now, maybe as a Yankee fan watching Giambi and co. playing the position for the last too many years has made me think that average is phenomenal, but I really don’t think so.
Also, why do I get the feeling that most stats are set up from the point of view of trying to show that a player isn’t as good as we think he is? (that’s my subjective bias, not a fact, just so you know)
And stats that try to chart a player’s defensive skills are flawed. There are too many non-quantifiable variables.
**Actually, on XM with Rob Dibble, he thinks Youkilis (however you spell his name) is the best first baseman in the league. (Not that I agree, but I have an anti-Youk bias to begin with) and he felt that Hill deserved the award for second base, because he gets to more balls than Polanco and turns more DPs, and though he had more errors, he had more chances.
And he waxed poetic, for him, about all the things that aren’t taken into consideration. And any award that can be given to a guy who played 28 days at a position is suspect.
He also talked about how ridiculous it is that whoever votes for GGs virtually ignores LFs and RFs.
“Of course it’s true. It’s why the Brian Cashmans and Theo Epstiens of the world makes the big decisions and get to spend the big bucks.”
adam-
if theo and cashman are so valuable, why don’t they get paid more than a good middle reliever?
the fact is a lot of people could do what they do and the market place only places a 3-4 million dollar value on what they do.
the yankees are a very expensive vehicle. there are a lot of people who could drive it.
if cashman or theo don’t think so, let them ask for ten million a year.
neither will be driving their expensive sports cars for long.
saucY November 10th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Neyer probably thinks Youk should have won both the 3B and 1B GG awards
—
and LF
randy,
And you don’t think there are the same amount of people out there capable of managing a winning baseball team?
GreenBeret7
November 10th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
I recognise Scott Boras on the left and Matsui in the center, but, who’s the scout on the right?
***********************
Hmmmmm…..good question. Maybe it’s Good Boras and Evil Boras? LOL
“Bill James had nothing to do with the stat. He merely used it to write the article.”
dewan stuck the article in his book.
james and dewan have been partners. they basically think alike.
the point is dewan is putting out a book with supposed objective numbers , but includes a major negative article about jeter when he doesn’t do it with anyone else.
dewan has a thing about jeter wouldn’t you say?
randy l -
Come on, now. You know that argument about if GMs were really valuable they’d made more money isn’t valid.
Teachers, police officers, etc., etc., are way more valuable than any baseball player.
We don’t pay people based on their value.
We pay them more if they entertain us.
Plus it’s apples and oranges. You can compare GMs to GMs, but not GMs to players. Within the realm of GMs, GMs in towns like Boston, NY, Chicago, Phillie – high pressure to win towns – are paid accordingly.
Now, am I saying that Brian Cashman or Theo Epstein are irreplaceable. Not at all. No one is.
Adam
November 10th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
“So, you don’t think a wet field, a pitch that’s supposed to be inside, but, goes outside and hit the other way is an infrequent occurance? If so, you have a lot to learn.”
I doubt a wet field has a statistically significant impact on a hitter’s ability to field his zones over the course of the season. That’s why you use large samples (the creator of UZR, who was hired by the Cardinals based on the system, suggests using a 3 yr average). I also doubt a fielder is counting on a pitch to go inside so much that he can’t get to a ground ball the other way in his zone because he’s so surprised.
————————————————————
With common sense and thinking like that, don’t be shocked if you don’t get a call to come over and change a lightbulb.
Even on the low side, I’d say that it happens to an everyday player at least once every 4-5 games. That’s a pretty sizeable amount of chances over a season.
Then too, I don’t swallow everything an idiot like James and others shovel out anyway. Every year they hook fantasy geeks with a new “theory” to get suckers to buy their crap. They love you guys.
Erin
November 10th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
GreenBeret7
November 10th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
I recognise Scott Boras on the left and Matsui in the center, but, who’s the scout on the right?
***********************
Hmmmmm…..good question. Maybe it’s Good Boras and Evil Boras? LOL
link didn’t work what pic are you talking about
GB7 =
Colin Curtis, 3 for 3? I told ya – watch out for that one, he’s a sleeper!
I just watched game 2 of the ALDS on MLB. It reminded me what a special, fun season it was. On a personal level for me and no doubt you all, what pleasure I got from the season. No wonder I miss it.
will MLB channel have winter league games?
“the point is dewan is putting out a book with supposed objective numbers , but includes a major negative article about jeter when he doesn’t do it with anyone else.”
I think you have a thing for Dewan for whatever reason. Have you never read a baseball book before? All of them include analysis showing off the stats the authors created. That’s all this one does.
I don’t give a fig what Neyer thinks…..whatever stats he’s going to throw out there, I know what I saw with my eyes. I don’t care what UZR says – if I want to deal with mathematical formulas for fun, I’ll go sit in on an economics class. Are these formulas just created by computer whizes with too much time on their hands? The idea of trying to reduce a wonderful game to graphs/charts/#s is ridiculous to me. Let them, but I think it’s silly and I don’t pay any attention to them
CD
November 10th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Matsui Hires New Agents !!!
http://assets.nydailynews.com/…..esame5.jpg
*******
LOL… If anyone can negotiate it’s Elmo
“Then too, I don’t swallow everything an idiot like James and others shovel out anyway. Every year they hook fantasy geeks with a new “theory” to get suckers to buy their crap. They love you guys.”
I love it when guys get angry about stuff they don’t understand. You guys are all the same. There is a reason that all of these “idiots” end up actually working for major league clubs in positions of influence.
I miss Johnny Damon already…
Doreen
November 10th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
GB7 =
Colin Curtis, 3 for 3? I told ya – watch out for that one, he’s a sleeper!
————————————————————
yeah, he ended up 3-4. I hope I’m wrong about him, but, I have to see a lot more of that in a full season AAA setting. a player like that would do much to help the team.
“I don’t give a fig what Neyer thinks…..whatever stats he’s going to throw out there, I know what I saw with my eyes. ”
Did you watch every baseball play that occurred in 2009? Do you remember every play you saw? No, and that’s the reason these, admittedly not perfect, stats are useful. It’s not my fault you won’t take 10 minutes to read about them and increase your understanding of the game. You impress no one by bragging about your ignorance.
Umm, let’s see,how many Socks made the list?
I hear crickets!!
Adam
November 10th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
“Then too, I don’t swallow everything an idiot like James and others shovel out anyway. Every year they hook fantasy geeks with a new “theory” to get suckers to buy their crap. They love you guys.”
I love it when guys get angry about stuff they don’t understand. You guys are all the same. There is a reason that all of these “idiots” end up actually working for major league clubs in positions of influence.
————————————————————
It’s pretty easy when you buy a piece of the team.
I’m not angry, just amused. Any, because nobody agrees with you, they don’t understand it? Or, maybe, it’s because they don’t accept BS.
Erica – always OPPC
November 10th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
I miss Johnny Damon already…
——————————————
I think he will still be in NY next year.
With the Mets.
The idea of trying to reduce a wonderful game to graphs/charts/#s is ridiculous to me. Let them, but I think it’s silly and I don’t pay any attention to them
——————————————–Betsy
Good call!
The need to make baseball into a science was invented by people who never played the game.
Statistics can enhance the baseball experience. They cannot replace it.
Sometimes statistics will confirm what you already know to be true.
But a lot of times, what you see with your eyes tells you statistics are wrong. Oh, they may be mathematically correct. But they’re wrong.
Plus, statistics tell you only what they want you to know.
And not every little thing is perfectly quantifiable.
I think numbers can be wonderful and amazing in their own right. But they don’t and can’t tell the whole story in baseball.
I think it’s rude to tell people who know the game because they played it that they disregard statistics because they don’t understand them. And most don’t disregard stats, as much as they don’t regard them as bible. They are useful tools. They are not gospel, end of story, truth.
“I’m not angry, just amused. Any, because nobody agrees with you, they don’t understand it? Or, maybe, it’s because they don’t accept BS.”
I’m not exactly worried that people priding themselves on wanting less information are not agreeing, or even listening, to me.
Just got home to see Placido Polanco won the Gold Glove for 2B.
Well, everyone knows that the gold glove is just as much an offensive award as it is defensive. They usually do not give it to guys that can only play defense. While Polanco, I would imagine, is decent offensively, I believe, without having looked at stats, that Cano is light years better than fathead Polanco offensively.
Oh, well. #27 will allow me to forget this cheatjob.
GB7 -
I’m just teasing you at this point about Colin Curtis.
(You’ve seen more minor league games and players than I’ll ever have the opportunity to see. So I defer. But, I was right on Hanley Ramirez, so I’m holding out hope that I can see talent every now and then.
)
“The idea of trying to reduce a wonderful game to graphs/charts/#s is ridiculous to me. Let them, but I think it’s silly and I don’t pay any attention to them”
betsy-
You don’t need to focus on stats to enjoy the game.
If, however, your job was to field the best team you could next year, based on how your players play next year, on a finite budget, you’d be very interested in graphs/charts/#s.
And if you wanted to compare the defensive abilities of all first basemen to each other, in an unbiased way, you’d also be very interested in graphs/charts/#s.
Now I know, from all your posts, that you are a bit of a worrier when it comes to your favorite team (not that there is anything wrong with that – I’m that way myself).
Graphs/charts/#s are to my mind a great antidote to worrying, as it distracts the mind at the very least. You can also get a lot of amusement out of them by using them to yank GB7’s or Randy’s or SJ44’s chain (don’t get mad guys).
Just a suggestion.
lol @ ESPN and the front of their MLB page devoted to Neyer’s ‘article’…
“Devalued Gold” … like this is the first year people questioned the winners…
“But a lot of times, what you see with your eyes tells you statistics are wrong. Oh, they may be mathematically correct. But they’re wrong.”
It’s usually (but not always) the opposite. I realize people like you prefer to not use logic, but the fact is your eyes often deceive you as you can’t possibly remember every play so your memory and opinion of players will be based on a few “big” moments.
It’s not my fault you won’t take 10 minutes to read about them and increase your understanding of the game. You impress no one by bragging about your ignorance.
————————————————————-
The game survived without all the minutia of “statistics” as you call them.
But then again I hated Science as a student.
Can’t we love the game as much as you even though you are infinitely wiser?
And you don’t think there are the same amount of people out there capable of managing a winning baseball team?
adam-
interesting question.
managers and gms are paid about the same .
i’d say there are other managers who could manage the yankees and if girardi had asked for ten million, he wouldn’t be managing the yankees.
i think neither gms or managers are as important as good players and the money all the respective people get reflects that.
if a gm like theo or cashman isn’t worth that much compared to a good player, what does that tell you about the stat consultants value to baseball that are below these gms.
does jeter even know who dewan is?
bottom line, dewan just isn’t that important in the game compared to derek jeter.
do we really need to care what he thinks?
did anyone read my parade story?
i know it’s a few days late, but i’ve been busy…
Adam -
Here you are right: No one has seen every play of every game played, and so statistics are needed to fill in the gaps in some instances.
But there’s no way someone can say Teixeira didn’t deserve that award.
I don’t think statistics should trump actuality (for lack of a better word).
In the case of the GG awards, you’re comparing, for the most part, players who are all very good at what they do; players who are separated by gossamer. So, do you err on the side of a statistic, or err on the side of what someone’s eyes saw?
I think that’s an interesting conundrum.
Is it that hard to believe that a 1B that is capable of switching to 3B midseason without any serious issues is the best 1B in the league?
==============================================
So Alex should be winning GG at SS?
Just kidding, Adam. It’s a positional award. Let’s give to someone who played most of the season at the position, okay?
saucY
November 10th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
did anyone read my parade story? i know it’s a few days late, but i’ve been busy…
Oh Yes Sorry!
Great Story did you go home and Celebrate with a coupla cheesburgers or did you shoot your paretns and join the Texas Rangers j/k
“lol @ ESPN and the front of their MLB page devoted to Neyer’s ‘article’…
“Devalued Gold” … like this is the first year people questioned the winners…”
Rob Neyer’s on the Fielding Bible Panel…
Welcome to “Scientists Gone Wild.”
saucY,
I did! I meant to tell you that the abc lady “tried” to spike it back into the crowd. Not very good form.
Uncle Ellsworth (much ado about nothing)
November 10th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
link didn’t work what pic are you talking about
***************
Go up to CD’s 5:06 post.
Baseball has gone in the wrong direction by moving out oldtime baseball men, guys that made determinations based on experience, sight and feel. There are very few Gene Michaels left in the game and that’s a pity. Nothing wrong with using today’s technology to help track stats, but, when computers are allowed to make decisions, it’s gone too far. Baseball on the field is now guided by computers fed some zit faced kid’s ideas. A kid who last touched grass when he bent over to pick up his inhaler.
I’ll take the Bob Lemons, Gene Michaels, Gabe Pauls of the baseball world over the Bill Gates clones any time.
How ironic is it that the resident board Scientologist is named after the first man created by those who believe in Creationism.
Adam -
People like me? You don’t know me.
I am an extremely open-minded person. Extremely.
“Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” — was that Mark Twain?
Anyway – point being people can use statistics to say whatever they want them to. They’re flawed in that human beings choose the variables that go into any equation, no matter how objective they’re trying to be. Just as human beings view a baseball game and bring their own biases (as I said, I am anti-Youk, so there’s no way anyone can convince me he was a better 1B than Tex.)
I think statistics are useful, but they don’t define the game of baseball, and they don’t necessarily tell you who is best. Statistically best? Okay. Overall best – sometimes yes, sometimes no.
“does jeter even know who dewan is?”
of course he does but he’s involved now.
http://images.google.com/image.....microsoft:*&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=qvj5Sp_GIsTTnAeumfSDDQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCUQsAQwAw
I do like the idea of challenges like they do in the NFL, for baserunning safe/out, foul/fair calls down the line and home runs. Would correct a lot of the more egregious mistakes umpires make. Questek behind the plate would feel wrong, though. Ball/strike calls and umpire zones are one of the more sacred parts of the game.
That was just part of the whole FOX jinxing the Yanks. Gardner never got the bunt down.
—————————————————-
They do that all the time.
I think it’s a combination of them hating the Yanks and being told what to say by execs to appeal to the Anti-Yankee sentiment.
The 1st question at their job interviews are no doubt,”Do you hate the New York Yankees?”
m
November 10th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
saucY,
I did! I meant to tell you that the abc lady “tried” to spike it back into the crowd. Not very good form.
-=-=-=-=-=-=
seriously? i watched Fox, NBC, and YES coverage.
nice
Ooh. Did Adam just pick a fight with Doreen? Gotta go back and read.
Gene Michael’s what?
GreenBeret7 November 10th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Baseball has gone in the wrong direction by moving out oldtime baseball men, guys that made determinations based on experience, sight and feel. There are very few Gene Michaels left in the game and that’s a pity. Nothing wrong with using today’s technology to help track stats, but, when computers are allowed to make decisions, it’s gone too far. Baseball on the field is now guided by computers fed some zit faced kid’s ideas. A kid who last touched grass when he bent over to pick up his inhaler.
I’ll take the Bob Lemons, Gene Michaels, Gabe Pauls of the baseball world over the Bill Gates clones any time.
——————————————————
Wow! I find myself agreeing with GB7. Is that an imposter?
I actually did watch every play of every MLB game and I say any player that spends a month playing next to Cody Ransom deserves an award.
James was interesting, at least to me, when he was starting out and everybody and his dorky brother-in-law wasn’t churning out, or at least nattering on about, similar stuff. I had been following the game for a long time already by then but didn’t think I knew everything. So I used to buy his books and then watch with some of his thinking in mind. I thought it was helpful to look at things from different perspectives IF you knew something about baseball. James et.al. enriched the conversation.
That was before a whole generation emerged that knew a lot more about numbers than about the game that they were supposedly being used to illuminate. Then there began to be too many conversations that were more about ‘competitive number-ation’ than about any light that numbers could shed on the game itself. I don’t know whether I would say that that impoverished the conversation, but it often took it in a direction that was too far away from baseball to keep my interest.
No reason to remain in the dark about stats, but also no reason to think they tell you all you need to know about the game and the players.
If they did, we could quit playing the games and just computerize the whole season.
But the games get played — and however much we learn about the numbers, the games and the players keep on surprising us every year.
Adam -
And I’m incredibly insulted, by the way, by your last comment about “people like me” who “prefer not to use logic” because I don’t necessarily buy into every statistic that is fed to me.
I like to think that, actually, it makes me a thinking human being.
Before I go back and read, let me guess. Someone thinks that Doreen thinks that stats are a bunch of hooey.
False. Wrong. She worked very hard at some point in the past year to learn a statistical concept that made my eyes glaze over. She’s very much interested and somewhat versed in regards to the other “side” of baseball.
Baseball stats can’t be used for anything but the truth if you understand them.
my 2 cents on stats: they have their place. know which ones to look at in certain cases. keeping everything in context…
but i think range is ridiculously over-rated when people seem to tout it as the only one worth looking at for defense..
Doreen
November 10th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
GB7 -
I’m just teasing you at this point about Colin Curtis.
(You’ve seen more minor league games and players than I’ll ever have the opportunity to see. So I defer. But, I was right on Hanley Ramirez, so I’m holding out hope that I can see talent every now and then. )
————————————————————
I know you were only teasing, Doreen. as far as the minor league games go, I regret that I don’t get to see these young players after they leave Charleston, except when I can get to Tampa. After that, it’s an occassional televised game or radio broadcasts, unless I can get north. I’l loved to watch some of these kids mature…cradle to grave, so to speak.
Doreen November 10th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Adam -
And I’m incredibly insulted, by the way, by your last comment about “people like me” who “prefer not to use logic” because I don’t necessarily buy into every statistic that is fed to me.
——————————————————
Doreen
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
the article about jeter and everret was not meant to bash derek jeter. It was one of the first articles for the fielding bible and it needed to make a name for itself. By talking about a high profile player who everyone knows (including non-baseball fans), you create interest in story. The purpose of the story was to show that lesser offensive players actually contribute in a large way to helping a team through their defense. They created a way to measure defense; albeit not a perfect way, but a better way; and they were using that article to draw interest into their statistics from both mlb teams, and fans all over, to invest in their product. Their is no secret bias against Derek Jeter, just a sneaky plan to make money, and it clearly has worked.
have a good night folks!
Adam
November 10th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Baseball stats can’t be used for anything but the truth if you understand them.
—–
No. Not necessarily. It is the truth that the creator of a statistic wants you to know.
Assimilate into the BORG
In no way could Youkilis even be considered for a Gold Glove this year. He didn’t even play half of Boston’s games at first base.
“I think it’s rude to tell people who know the game because they played it that they disregard statistics because they don’t understand them. And most don’t disregard stats, as much as they don’t regard them as bible. They are useful tools. They are not gospel, end of story, truth.”
doreen-
one of the great things about baseball is there is a geometric and mathematical beauty to it, so i can see why people who like numbers would be attracted to it.
my position is that it’s like knowing another language. you can express the same ideas in different ways, but they are the same ideas. i don’t really think the statistical analysis group is really inventing the wheel.
but the problem is that it sometimes seems like they think they are.
there is no one on the blog who i have greater respect for than cb and he loves the statistical analysis side of the game.
there are a lot of ways to understand and enjoy the game.
i just don’t think any one side should declare themselves the final authority because baseball is just too complex a game for that.
Questek behind the plate would feel wrong, though. Ball/strike calls and umpire zones are one of the more sacred parts of the game.
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First, there should not be a challenge system. It should be similar to Hockey, where they have people viewing the games and replays all the time in Toronto. Any questionable goal, the refs call Toronto and Toronto renders a decision.
Sacred parts of the game. If by sacred, you mean it was sacred that the Yankees won their 27th World Series by winning 11 games versus the Twins, Angels, and Phillies and also 11 games versus the HP umpires, then this postseason was SACRED!
Although it’s generally pitching that wins or loses, many of you have noticed how our offense goes into shutdown mode in the postseason. Sure, that could be the better pitching. But that is a common misconception, that there is always better pitching in the postseason.
Enough ABs get changed by the HP umpire, and our hitters then have to change their approach, swing at pitches a foot outside, and so on. It makes the job of the pitcher that much easier.
Doreen & GB7
You both are on the right track. Stats as a tool are helpfull. As the be all end all, not even close.
The game is played by live people not robots. Stats don’t take into account the inner make up of the individuals that play the game. Yes the dreaded intangibles.
The way I see it is the stats people are trying to tell the old school guys they are smarter and know more about the game. Wrong.
A mix of the two is okay. If you had to choose between the two the old school would be right more often than not.
And I’m sure that defensive statistics were commissioned by a player who wasn’t so hot offensively, but with contracts being what they are wanted to be able to quantify his value to a team.
There’s nothing wrong with that. And it is a valid argument by said player, that his defensive prowess is of value and should be rewarded.
But one should not have a blind faith in statistics.
Something tells me that Adam is really Bill James, or, at least on his payroll. Wipe that pizza sauce off of your face, kid.
Now, come back with how anybody that doesn’t accept this crap just isn’t as smart as you and Uncle bill.
MaineYankee
November 10th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Erica – always OPPC
November 10th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
I miss Johnny Damon already…
——————————————
I think he will still be in NY next year.
With the Mets.
******
Wrong. He doesn’t make sense for an NL team. He is great as a OF/DH type. Not quuite right for a long term full-time outfielder
****many of you have noticed how our offense goes into shutdown mode in the postseason in previous years****
You people do know that UZR is completely USELESS for catchers and 1st basemen right?
@CR9
That argument can go against you. If your saying that the yankees got the worse of the HP umpires but yet happened to score more runs in 11 games, doesnt that mean the opponents got it worse since they lost?
Black dress
Black eye
black dog
Blackie Parish
Black – Sholes
Black Taco
“Their is no secret bias against Derek Jeter, just a sneaky plan to make money, and it clearly has worked.”
anthony-
are you trying to help or hurt?
i didn’t get around to my belief that dewan and james have made a cottage industry out of what they do.
hey , can , you blame them? for how little they knew about baseball they’ve done all right for themselves.
Erica
At least I didn’t get the dreaded hiss.
Erica
Did you hear Johnny will not give a hometown discount ?
Just wondering if he will go for the last buck or really wants to play here, that’s all.
Still wearing his jersey.
Mike
NO!
That makes no sense.
The HP umpire cheats us moreso than our opposition.
When we get 5 cheap calls in our favor in a game, and the opposing team gets 20 cheap calls, the advantage goes to them.
When our pitchers have smaller strike zones than their pitchers, and our hitters have wider strike zones than their hitters, the advantage goes to them.
Going into every postseason, because of the HP umpires, it is Advantage: Opposition of Yankees.
Because this team was so talented and so together and had that will to fight adversity all year long, they overcame the umpires, making it that much more special.
Let’s hope the HP umpires decide to put aside their anti-Yankee bias next postseason, if the Yankees are fortunate enough to be in it.
My head hurts!
I have no issues with managers/gms using computers to complie things like what certain players might look for in certain situations, but games aren’t or shouldn’t be played on computers. Even common sense shouldn’t rule how decisions should be made. Casey Stengel used to pinch hit for a right handed batter against a left handed pitcher…using a guy that didn’t hit the pitcher….just because he had good swings at him the last time he saw him. He’d pinch hit for a batter (Clete Boyer) in the first inning of a WS game and with a 3 run lead. The guy had a 2 run single. You’ll never find a computer that will tell you that was the correct move.
randy l -
Absolutely.
And CB has taught me a lot of statistics that I’ve found really interesting and even fun. But I suspect that CB loves the entire game, not just the number side, and it shows. He seems to use statistics in the way they are meant to be used – to enhance the game and to appreciate some of the nuances.
And I agree that baseball is a very “mathematical” game. And I personally love the neatness and symmetry of numbers.
But, as you said, you can’t disregard the human element. And I keep thinking about Jeter’s season last year, where he played hurt at diminished capacity. Is there a variable in the statistical formulae that take this into account (not just for Jeter, obviously, but in general)? And if a player doesn’t announce his infirmities, how would one even know to use such a variable?
So, all I’m saying is, numbers are not perfect, but can be useful. And neither side (sabermetrics vs. “authentic”) should be told they don’t know what they’re talking about.
Long before the use of statistics (and I maintain that the growth of that industry is directly attributable to the growth in salaries), no one had any trouble identifying who the better players were, who the mediocre players were, and who the worst players were.
** Long before the wide-spread use of esoteric statistics, that is.
“I think you have a thing for Dewan for whatever reason. Have you never read a baseball book before? All of them include analysis showing off the stats the authors created. That’s all this one does.”
adam-
gee adam , you were doing so good being reasonable and rational and all.
have i ever read a baseball book before?
i bought dewan’s book to argue against it. i guess you’d say i read a lot of it.
i see some value in it , but i believe it’s biased.
using terms like “people like you” in your other comments really sounds very elitist and kind of bigoted.
maybe you’d like to clear that up.
mick
November 10th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Erica
Did you hear Johnny will not give a hometown discount ?
******
I heard that. Don’t believe it. Free Agency 101 says that you aren’t supposed to say “I really want to be a Yankee and I will take whatever crummy contract they offer”
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