Preparing for the Rule 5 draft (part one)
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- November
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I’ve been getting a ton of emails about the Rule 5 draft, most of them asking which players need to be protected and which are likely to be protected. I was going to go over the whole thing in one post, but it’s a lot of information so I’ll break it into two parts.
First things first, the easiest way to think about Rule 5 eligibility is that high school players drafted in 2005 and college players drafted in 2006 become eligible this year. It’s a little more complicated than that, but that’s a good starting point. For more on what determines eligibility, check here, here and here.
Second thing to know is that in order to protect a player, he must be added to the 40-man by November 20.
With that out of a way, we’ll start by looking at guys who are Rule 5 eligible for the first time. I’m sure there are some players I’ve overlooked, but I’m fairly certain I have all of the viable new Rule 5 candidates listed here. And there are some listed here who have almost no chance of being taken.
Pitchers: Jonathan Hovis, George Kontos, Paul Patterson, Kanekoa Texeira
Catchers: None
Infielders: Mitch Hilligoss, Eduardo Nunez, Luis Nunez, Kevin Russo, Kevin Smith
Outfielders: Colin Curtis, Seth Fortenberry, Austin Jackson
Austin Jackson will be added to the 40-man. He is the Yankees’ top position prospect other than Jesus Montero and there is zero chance he’ll be left off the roster, barring a trade. Beyond Jackson, three names stand out to me: Eduardo Nunez, Kevin Russo and Kanekoa Texeira.
You might remember Nunez from spring training. He had some nice moments in big league camp, then he hit .322 as an all-star shortstop in Double-A Trenton. He made 33 errors, but that bat is very nice for a middle infielder. As for Russo, he was the International League’s postseason all-star second baseman last year. I watched him all year and honestly believe he was the best lead-off hitter in the league, as a rookie. He’s a good defender at second and third with limited experience at shortstop and in the outfield. I believe both Russo and Nunez are worth protecting and would almost certainly be drafted, but with Ramiro Pena already on the roster, that’s a lot of 40-man spots to devote to middle infielders.
Texeira was a bonus of the Nick Swisher trade. I actually have no idea why the White Sox included him, but he had a 2.84 ERA with Trenton. He’s primarily a reliever but made six starts. I didn’t see him in person so I can’t tell you much about what he throws, I just know that I’ve heard good things about him.
The rest would probably pass through the Rule 5 undrafted. George Kontos is a Triple-A starter who would have been a great Rule 5 candidate, but he had Tommy John surgery last season and isn’t expected back until May or June. That might keep him safe. Colin Curtis could and probably should also draw some attention as a toolsy center fielder — he’s having a great Arizona Fall League — but I’m not sure there’s room for him on the Yankees 40-man.
Beyond Jackson, I’d say that at least one of Russo and Nunez — maybe both – will be added. Maybe Texeira as well. How many of the newly eligible players are protected might depend on how many of the second-timers are protected this time around. We’ll get into that this afternoon…
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on Thursday, November 12th, 2009 at 11:00 am by Chad Jennings.
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Sam Borden
The starting question is where are we with the 40 man? How many spaces are currently open?
I think that (much like Jeff Marquez last year) the Yankees will try to deal either Russo or Nunez rather than having to protect both of them.
i understand servicetime, but why not bring austin up for a cup of coffee last september here a few guys that should get sent packing.
1.edwar ramirez he has no future in nyy bullpen
2.shelly duncan he has no future with nyy.
3. mitre minor league deal only
Jennifer:
Off the top of my head spots have been opened up by the departures of – Towers, Guzman, Hinske, Molina, Hairston, Damon, Matsui, Andy, Nady. They can open up a couple of more spots by dropping Shelly Duncan, Jonathan Albaladejo and either cutting CM Wang or putting him on the 60 day DL
Saw Texiera pitch in a must win game against New Britain last year and was very impressed with his guts. Where he fits in long range bullpen plans I have no idea but I’d definitely sooner have him than someone like Edwar at this point.
Chip- So we have a fair amount of room. I would add Edwar to the list of drops. BTW you can’t move Wang to the 60 day. He either has to be added or dropped.
To Patrick (from the last thread)
If Damon leaves the Yankees will need a LF and someone to hit between Jeter and Tex – a good situational hitter/on base guy – to me – and I could be wrong on this – I think that a David DeJesus fills that role or (if you want to go the FA route) Randy Winn.
Jennifer-
True – they would have to wait until spring training ends to put Wang on the 60 day DL – but the thing is that they can give someone they wanted to keep (say Hinske) a minor league deal and tell him that it’s just a book keeping thing and as soon as camp breaks they’ll open up a spot on the 40 for him.
Rishi-
(repost)
I read somewhere once the value of a world series ring is over 20 grand. Which would exceed the amount the gift allowance per person per year. The IRS may be cracking down on this.
I have to admit, I am not tax specialized so I don’t always know full tax details. I have a huge seminar I need to attend on new tax matters for 2009 in a few weeks, so I will let you know if I learn anything that could shed light on fringe benefits
What’s the status of Scranton’s all-time win leader? Rule 5 eligible/filing for free ageny/going back where he came from?
And yea, there’s a fair amount of room but there are a couple of problems with just throwing all those guys onto the 40 – one is that it hampers you when you try to sign FA’s because you have to cut someone (which reminds me, they can also create a space by dropping Christian Garcia) and you don’t want to have a half dozen minor league middle infielders on the 40.
jimmy1138
He was put on waivers no one bit on him. Shame he does after all have a record that will never be broken.
I’ve always liked Colin Curtis. Would be a shame to see him go.
Chad – what about the guys who were rule 5 draftees last year (Corona, Nova, etc.)? Are they still draft eligible?
NY Post says that some teams in Japan have asked about buying his contract from the Yankees but he really wants to stay in the States – can’t say I blame him – 40 mil probably goes a long way in Scranton.
Thanks Chad. People will see, during the post season, what a special reporter you are.
Mike –
I don’t believe you can be drafted as a Rule V two years in a row.
Chip
November 12th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Jennifer:
Off the top of my head spots have been opened up by the departures of – Towers, Guzman, Hinske, Molina, Hairston, Damon, Matsui, Andy, Nady. They can open up a couple of more spots by dropping Shelly Duncan, Jonathan Albaladejo and either cutting CM Wang or putting him on the 60 day DL
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There is no disabled list once the season’s over. The player is either on the 40 man roster or he’s not.
So he’d rather stay in the states where he is basically disliked by most Yankee fans, instead of going back home. Thanks Kei FOR NOTHING!
I don’t know what worse…trying to convince yourself that NYY can get players like Hernandez and Kemp who aren’t on the block that the Yanks can get them just because they want them or drooling over players like Dejesus, who is nobdy special. He isn’t that great defensively, he has limited speed and even more limited power. What value is that?
Steamer -
I was probably at that same game last year against New Britain. Texeira pitched 2 innings, I think. The first he had a little trouble, and the second, he was outstanding, if I recall. But overall an impressive outing.
granderson would strengthen our outfield D. Move Melky to left. i like the idea.
This is exactly why bringing new blood to this blog was such a great idea! Having someone who knows the inner-workings of the Yanks farm system and can provide interesting and informative analysis of these types of situations sets this blog apart from all others!!
GB7, you forget he has “ESPN Top 10 Plays” Value. Very important.
m1kew
November 12th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Chad – what about the guys who were rule 5 draftees last year (Corona, Nova, etc.)? Are they still draft eligible?
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They are if they aren’t on the 40 man roster.
Greenberet7-
Granderson is nothing like soriano. As far as not hitting lefties….how did Paul O’Neill work out? If it’s an especially tough lefty on the mound, give him a day off. He has had good and bad years against left handers….just like O’Neill had after joining the Yanks. O’Neill had 3 years of hitting under .200 and NYY managed to win WS titles.
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Come on GreenBeret its not fair to compare Granderson to O’neil. And Yes .. Granderson is alot like Soriano. Impatient, Tons of K’s , low on base percentage, Thats the last thing we need espically at the top of our lineup.
i wonder what john sterlings call would be when granderson hits one out ?
“If Damon leaves the Yankees will need a LF and someone to hit between Jeter and Tex – a good situational hitter/on base guy – to me – and I could be wrong on this – I think that a David DeJesus fills that role or (if you want to go the FA route) Randy Winn. ”
Dejesus would be a good option but the Yanks would have to trade for him too – same as Granderson. Curtis is a better player though so I’d rather go after him.
What kind of player does a package of Colin Curtis/Eduardo Nunez/Ivan Nova bring back to NY?
GB
Regarding DeJesus – Power isn’t everything.
DeJesus is the same age as Granderson, far less expensive (both contractually and in terms of what it would take to get him)
Over the last three years DeJesus has hit for a better average, better OBP – while Granderson has had more power. But here’s the startling number:
vs. LH Pitchers over the last 3 years
DeJesus: .279 BA .334 OB
Granderson: .202 BA .261 OB
Please confirm this. If a team picks up a player they must remain on the 25 man roster for the entire season?
October –
I think that package could EASILY bring the Yankees DeJesus. Maybe swap out Curtis for Melky.
MR.OCTOBER
November 12th, 2009 at 11:38 am
What kind of player does a package of Colin Curtis/Eduardo Nunez/Ivan Nova bring back to NY?
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Vernon Wells
1 more hit per 10 ab for granderson & he is hitting .283 against lefties
In the two seasons prior to this one Ganderson’s OBP was .361 and .365. He walked 72 times last season and 71 times in ‘08. His OBP was down last year because of his unlucky BAIP.
maybe long can work with him
“What kind of player does a package of Colin Curtis/Eduardo Nunez/Ivan Nova bring back to NY?”
Depends… the Yanks sent MUCH less to CHW and got back Swisher and Texeira because Kenny Williams was looking to dump salary.
I think that package could get 65% of a Curtis Granderson type player.
Remember what Pete used to say – at some point the other GM is going to have to sit at a press conference and list the reasons why he feels he made the right move.
If the Yankees were to let Johnny Damon go, they’d have plenty of other options, and not just left fielders. Some baseball people feel that New York should be focusing on center field instead of left, and the team has long coveted Mike Cameron. He could potentially replace Melky Cabrera and Brett Gardner until Austin Jackson is major-league ready.
Can two teams trade their respective rule 5 draft picks amongst themselves so each team gets something for return?
Granderson gets killed by his homepark. He’s actually got an acceptable OBP on the road. And what’s more, he might really rake in YS. His OBP was over .360 for the two years before this one, where he was dinged up and hit into terrible luck, his babip was well under .300. Anyway, he strikes out a lot, but he also walks 50-70 times a year. He’d be a terrific upgrade in CF.
What about Noesi,Duff, Whelan, Valdez, Schmidt, Arias?
NYY doesn’t need an outfielder with little power and less speed, especially one that isn’t all that much as an outfielder. He plays for KC and even they don’t want him playing center field. Last year, they preferred Gaithwright, for Christ’s sake. I hope the Royals trade him someplace like SF so the “I want Dejesus” wails will stop.
Yes, players taken in the Rule 5 must be kept on the 25 man roster all season.
And yes, Rule 5 eligible players from last year will be eligible again this season. Players can be taken in more than one Rule 5 draft. Shane Victorino was drafted in two different Rule 5s.
Phil –
Home vs. Road doesn’t explain how awful he is against LH pitchers or his huge strike out totals.
Vin –
Agreed. I think the Yankees could use a package like that to get a David DeJesus (in fact Nunez would probably end up starting at SS for the Royals next season)
Jennifer –
Yes, a player picked in the Rule V has to stay on a team’s 25 man roster all year or he gets offered back to the team that lost him.
MR.OCTOBER
November 12th, 2009 at 11:38 am
What kind of player does a package of Colin Curtis/Eduardo Nunez/Ivan Nova bring back to NY?
…………………………
Add another name (?) and serious talks start with Toronto for Halladay.
Damned, Vin…now you’ve reduced yourself to quoting PA?
if yanks can get granderson and keep melky for LF, and gardy on the bench it would be a good trade. Switch hitting Melk man is very important to retain.
Chip,
We face RHP about 80% of the time, and I still think he’d be an excellent pick-up.
GB -
DeJesus is a LF so yes, it stands to reason that the Royals wouldn’t want him in CF. Yankees wouldn’t be picking him up to be a CF either.
The Yankees don’t need a .250 hitter that can’t hit left handed pitching. If Damon leaves they need a situational hitter who can move Derek along when he’s on base and set the table for Tex and Alex.
And Joey Gaithright? Really? Had to go back what, three years for that?
“What kind of player does a package of Colin Curtis/Eduardo Nunez/Ivan Nova bring back to NY?
————————————————–
Vernon Wells”
How much of Wells’ salary would Toronto be taking on? 75%?
The Jays aren’t getting anything of value for Wells if they don’t pick up at least half his salary.
Patrick, no way for the pen for Phil. I agree it’s time for him to start……….but I’m just suggesting that fans (and the Yankees) have patience with him. I would skip starts to limit his innings…
Phil –
My problem with Granderson is that he’s a left handed Alfonso Soriano and that’s not what the Yankees need, it’s not how they’re built and it’s not how they won.
The Yankees won by building a team that worked pitchers, took walks, got on base and extended innings. Even Swisher, with his sub .250 BA was an asset because of his high on base percentage – Granderson doesn’t offer that. Yes, he hits a lot of homeruns and triples, and yes, he’s a very good centerfielder, but he also has a lot of wasted at bats by striking out and just being a poor situational hitter overall.
“Damned, Vin…now you’ve reduced yourself to quoting PA?”
LOL – he’s getting much harder to quote nowadays.
I did always feel that quote was right on the money, and important for some (a lot) of people here to remember.
Im not a huge fan of Granderson. i think he’s a little overratetd. However if the package for him DIDN”T include AJAX , Hughes or Joba . than i’m for it.
Based on the season he had (injury aside) Brett Gardner will have to play himself on the 25-man roster before spring training ends. If A-Jax or Colin Curtis turn heads in March, Gardner is headed back to AAA.
bru
November 12th, 2009 at 11:47 am
If the Yankees were to let Johnny Damon go, they’d have plenty of other options, and not just left fielders. Some baseball people feel that New York should be focusing on center field instead of left, and the team has long coveted Mike Cameron. He could potentially replace Melky Cabrera and Brett Gardner until Austin Jackson is major-league ready.
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Please no 37 year old Cameron for center. Melky and Brett did just fine in center.
Sign either Damon or Sui and let the kids and Swish compete for the outfield spots.
I think Swish and Melky are 2 of the outfielders going in to Spring training.
The Yankees have more than enough pop to cover a light hitting OF if Damon or Sui is the DH.
Just Sign Matsui!
Plus there is the difference in cost to consider:
While I believe DeJesus could be gotten for a package of second and third level guys (Melky, Nova, Nunez) it would take at least two blue-chippers to start the conversation to get Granderson. You’re talking about giving up at least two of the Hughes, Joba, Jackson, Montero crew.
Chad
Because nobody would take Vernon Wells’ contract, could the Blue Jays potentially, if they needed, leave Wells unprotected off the 40 man roster, to add a minor leaguer with upside, and then put Wells back on the 40 man roster after the Rule 5 Draft.
I would prefer to hold onto Romine in any Granderson deal…….
i think the Yanks will protect Russo,Curtis and Nunez along with Nova as those 4 players will be the Heart of the SWB roster and insurance to the MLB roster. These players along with AJax and IPK represent your only close to major league ready players at the upper levels of your farm system
Does Romine need to be protected?
Betsy
I would rather have Hughes start the season in AAA where his innings can be limited and then have him come up in late June or early July with fewer restrictions (ie the way the Rays broke in David Price.)
Chad Jennings
November 12th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Yes, players taken in the Rule 5 must be kept on the 25 man roster all season.
And yes, Rule 5 eligible players from last year will be eligible again this season. Players can be taken in more than one Rule 5 draft. Shane Victorino was drafted in two different Rule 5s.
Would you protect any of the guys who were drafted last year?
Matsui or Damon (1 of them is not coming back)
Hinske (free agent)
Guzman (free agent)
Duncan (could be cut)
Miranda (possible trade)
Hairston (free agent)
Molina (free agent)
Towers (free agent)
Ramirez (could be cut)
Unlike last year, there is no roster crunch. The Yankees will be able to protect everyone they need to EASILY!
Betsy, Romine, Laird and the class of ‘07 are safe.
Chip, that’s ridiculous – I don’t believe Detroit will ask for that. If they are serious about trading him, they will get hung up on by the Yankees…….and by other teams if they ask for similar packages.
They have to stay on the 25 man the entire season or be offered back to their original team. But I believe there are 2 phases to the draft, depending on AAA/AA and A players.
Felix Hernandez and Hughes are roughly the same age but felix was allowed to struggle and learn to pitch at the big league level. Now they were able to do that with him because seattles fans don’t demand as much as the Yankees do but they are reaping the benefits from him now. I’m not suggesting that Phil will ever be as good as felix because he’s just not as talented but its the same concept. You have to pitch in order to learn how to get major league outs and its time to remove the training wheels and see what he becomes
“I would rather have Hughes start the season in AAA where his innings can be limited and then have him come up in late June or early July with fewer restrictions (ie the way the Rays broke in David Price.)”
Hughes got nothing else to prove in AAA. why does he needs to start the season in AAA?
vin
November 12th, 2009 at 11:57 am
“Damned, Vin…now you’ve reduced yourself to quoting PA?”
LOL – he’s getting much harder to quote nowadays.
I did always feel that quote was right on the money, and important for some (a lot) of people here to remember.
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Th quote may be accurate, Vin, but, you could have attibuted it to an anonymous quote….just to save face.
GB, thanks!
Chip, I’m not sure if I want Phil up here skipping starts or starting in AAA. As long as he doesn’t end up (or start) in the pen……
Guys.. lets say we do trade for Granderson. what does that do for a guy like AJAX. trade bait ??
One of the tougher decisions on who to protect will be Wilkin De La Rosa, a hard throwing young lefty starter.
Betsy –
I agree, I wouldn’t send two of those guys to Detroit for Granderson, but I think that’s what it would take to get him. Which is yet another reason why I would rather go for a David DeJesus than him.
Green Beret-
NYY doesn’t need an outfielder with little power and less speed, especially one that isn’t all that much as an outfielder. He plays for KC and even they don’t want him playing center field. Last year, they preferred Gaithwright, for Christ’s sake. I hope the Royals trade him someplace like SF so the “I want Dejesus” wails will stop.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I agree DeJesus is not the answer. I would rather have a 25/26 yr old Melky Cabrera than a 30yr old DeJesus.
Cabrera avg .274 hr 13 rbi 68 runs 66 obp .336 slg .416 in 485 abs
DeJesus avg .281 hr 13 rbi 71 runs 74 obp .347 slg. .434 in 558 abs
Cabrera = better defense
Mike
To get Granderson you’re going to have to give up Jackson.
Oddly enough, the impatient Ganderson walked 22 more times last year than DeJesus did.
Betsy,
Need to be protected…
1. 2005 & earlier HS drafted & IFA signed
2. 2006 & earlier college drafted
Romine was a HS player drafted in 2007.
Melky Nova and Nunez imo is way too much for DeJesus…Melky and DeJesus are comparable playersand Melky’s 5 years younger and probably better defensively especially in LF. Nova and Nunez are 21-22 year old legit prospects who will paly at AAA this year….you guys seem to fall into the trap that the national media sells of talking down the value or ability of the Yanks prospects…case and point Wang and Cano were considered b prospects when they were coming up in our system? How’d they do? Nunez is a very good looking young player with tremendous upside to his game and the error totals for minor league infielders are very misleading as the infields they play on are terrible.
Jeter,Utley,Hanley all made a million errors coming up as minor leaguers…how are they looking now? Nunez is the only in house replacement we have for Jeter in the system who is not 4 years away and i think needs to be held onto
The problem with sending Hughes back to AAA is that it burns another option on him. He’d only have one left.
blake,
I agree, but don’t forget Phil was called up at age 21. The hamstring injury really hurt his development. And of course 2008 was awful.
After Felix’s call up in 2005 (age 19) he has been healthy enough to make at least 30 starts in each of the past 4 season. He’s 23 years old and already has 99 big league decisions.
Mike RI
November 12th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Guys.. lets say we do trade for Granderson. what does that do for a guy like AJAX. trade bait ??
***************
Jackson would have to be part of the package to get Granderson.
October -
You’re putting a lot of faith in Melky being able to recreate what he did last year – I like Melky but remember, this is the same guy who was so ineffective in 2008 that he was sent to the minors.
thanks Chip
i’m not sure i’m doing it then
the current 40 man:
91 Alfredo Aceves
63 Jonathan Albaladejo
64 Andrew Brackman
99 Brian Bruney
34 A. J. Burnett
62 Joba Chamberlain
48 Phil Coke
68 Wilkin De La Rosa
31 Michael Dunn
70 Christian Garcia
41 Chad Gaudin
65 Phil Hughes
38 Ian Kennedy
43 Dámaso Marté
39 Mark Melancon
45 Sergio Mitre
46 Andy Pettitte
36 Edwar Ramírez
42 Mariano Rivera
30 David Robertson
52 CC Sabathia
29 Francisco Cervelli
20 Jorge Posada
24 Robinson Canó
2 Derek Jeter
72 Juan Miranda
19 Ramiro Peña
13 Alex Rodriguez
25 Mark Teixeira
53 Melky Cabrera
28 Shelley Duncan
11 Brett Gardner
33 Nick Swisher
That’s 7 open spots to begin with, and you have to assume Garcia and Shelley could be dumped to leave them 9 spots to protect Rule 5 guys and sign/re-sign some FA. I think dumping those 2 gives them 5 spots they can use for protection.
GB -
Options are burned by service time, not how often he starts the season in the minors.
I’ll be really surprised if Hughes starts the season in AAA. I just don’t see that happening.
I don’t think we need to give up AJax to get Granderson. I’m not even sure that I want to. I don’t think he’s as bad as Soriano, but it’s pretty close.
Ed,
Hughes threw about 112 innings this year (AAA, regular & post season). They will not push him past 160 innings & we saw how much of problem they had keeping Joba around 155-160.
They would start Hughes in AAA not because he has anything to prove but so they can get away with throwing him 4 innings per start to keep his innings down early in the season (ex. Price). You can’t get away with that in the majors.
Chip
November 12th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
GB -
Options are burned by service time, not how often he starts the season in the minors.
————————————————————
Once they’re on the 25 man roster, they can be sent back to the minors 4 times. After that, waivers need to be requested before they can be sent back.
Chip
i think we can get cg with ajax combined with a few others
no way cash gives up montero,joba,hughes for cg
ajax,kennedy & another lower prospect
the only way hughes,joba,montero should be traded is for a real good,young cost controlled pitcher or o.f.
i also think dejesus will work especially because it wont cost nearly as much as cg
i can live with it
no way dejesus is as bad defensively as damon & he will put up about the same numbers
we lose 15 rbi & that is with dejesus on the royals
for what dejesus will cost i can live with him in lf
that would leave most of our good prospects to trade for a pitcher
“Just Sign Matsui!”
Didn’t you hear? He’s got bad knees and can’t play the outfield. Who needs a WS MVP that can’t play the field? How will the Yankees ever win with that guy on the roster? The horror of it all!
Bru –
What I said was that he would have to give up at least two of the group of Jackson, Hughes, Joba, Montero – not all four of them.
It would probably take something like: Jackson, Hughes, McAllister and Brackman.
To me this is exactly like the Johan scenario. The Yankees could have given up Melky, Marquez and Hughes to get Johan but instead they held onto those three guys and instead got CC for just money the following year.
The Yankees can give up a boatload of prospects for Granderson or they can hold serve – get a lesser player like Winn or DeJesus for a lot less, and then next year just spend money to get a guy like Carl Crawford.
Here we go with the clamoring for David Dejesus yet again.
I get it. He played at Rutgers and for some reason is considered a local product so there’s some weird Yankee fan sentimentality for this guy I don’t share.
If he’s out LF or CF next year, we’re in deep trouble.
GB – yeah but there’s also the service time aspect of it. For example the Yankees can’t send Jeter to AAA.
“The Yankees can give up a boatload of prospects for Granderson or they can hold serve – get a lesser player like Winn or DeJesus for a lot less, and then next year just spend money to get a guy like Carl Crawford.”
But Chip, they can’t get Crawford because he wants to stay in TB. He’s already told TB that he will give them a hometown discount. Forget Crawford. It ain’t happening.
Russo can make the team out of ST instead of Hairston.
“Didn’t you hear? He’s got bad knees and can’t play the outfield. Who needs a WS MVP that can’t play the field? How will the Yankees ever win with that guy on the roster? The horror of it all! ”
Haha exactly I didn’t see how it was a problem this year at all. Assuming Damon leaves then you have an extra spot for Granderson or whatever they decide to do.
Chip,
He’s not a .250 hitter. He was this past year cause his babip was well South of .300 ie, he had terrible luck. He’s an over .800 OPS CF when healthy in a normal season and that would be a big upgrat for us. He has nothing to do with Sori.
you are not going to have to give up AJax to get Grandy necessarily…if you look at Detroit’s system the need catching,bullpen help and corner infielders as that is the weakest areas in their organization.. if the move Grandy then Casper Wells comes up and plays CF and Rayburn can play RF…when Magglio is gone next year then they will move Cabrera off of 1b into the DH spot. the fact the Kyle Farnsworth is still pitching in the 7th and 8th innings and the injury history of Zumaya means they need arms in the pen
if i were the Yanks i decided i wanted Granderson the best offer from me would be;
Romine(hate to do it)
Laird(we have Tex and ARod for 7-8more years)
Bruney
and that’s it Romine and Laird will start the season in AA could make AAA this year and be on their big league roster next season and Bruney could possibly close for them but certainly pitch in the 8th inning and he’d be making $1.5mil and we’re taking back 23+mil back in salary commitments
Pokey
i dont see us signing any of our free agents before the rule v
am i missing something
rule v on nov 20th ??
MLB
Gardner
Melky
Pena
Cervelli
Robertson
Coke
Aceves
AAA
Melancon
Russo
Dunn
Kennedy
AA
De La Rossa
Nunez
Mcallister
Bleich
A+
Heredia
Romine
Adams
Noesi
Mitchell
It’s probably not likely but I wonder if the Yankees could get Granderson without Joba, Hughes, Montero or Jackson.
i dont see us signing any of our free agents before the rule v
am i missing something
rule v on nov 20th ??
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dec. 10 is the rule 5 draft
vin. I understand what you’re saying but they have babied both Hughes and joba much more than a lot of teams would have. the Yankees either have shut him down sent him down or sent him to the pen whenever he’s struggled. they just let Felix go and now he’s one of the best in baseball and Hughes is still in the infancy stages of his development as a starter.
“Haha exactly I didn’t see how it was a problem this year at all. ”
It wasn’t. That’s why it annoys me to no end when I hear the talking heads in the sports media say that the Yankees don’t want to sign him because he can’t play the field. He didn’t play the field this entire year and everything worked out pretty well from where I’m sitting. Why try to fix what ain’t broken?
champ809
November 12th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
if i were the Yanks i decided i wanted Granderson the best offer from me would be;
Romine(hate to do it)
Laird(we have Tex and ARod for 7-8more years)
Bruney
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Why don’t you just add Banulos, Montero and McAllister along with 10 mil cash…you know…just to help offset the player’s minor league salaries.
“If he’s out LF or CF next year, we’re in deep trouble.”
There isn’t a baseball player alive that you can’t stick in left field that would put the Yankees in “deep trouble”.
If even its own FANS don’t recognize how deep this team is compared to others, something is wrong.
They need to keep the roster spots available if/when they sign people, or they could lose whoever they DFA/waiver/whatever.
No way I’m trading romine for granderson. All reports say he is the catcher of the future because montero will likely need to play another position.
I wouldn’t give much more than Jackson for granserson
“It’s probably not likely but I wonder if the Yankees could get Granderson without Joba, Hughes, Montero or Jackson”
Why would you even entertain the idea of trading Montero for Curtis Granderson?
Only player I would trade Jesus for is Felix Hernandez. Maybe Lincecum too.
Chip
i know what you said & i dont think it takes 2 of the players you listed
i could be wrong.
nobody knows for sure
i think ajax,kennedy & maybe another prospect like mcallister,pena,etc… gets it done
if they ask for any of hughes,joba,montero i dont do it
WIKIPEDIA:
If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. If a player is on the 40-man roster and not the active 25 man roster for any part of more than three seasons (in which he spent 20 or more total days of service in the minors), he is out of options and may not be assigned to the minors without first clearing waivers. However, if a player has less than 5 years of professional experience, he may be optioned to the minors in a fourth season without being subject to waivers. If a major league player is ineligible for free agency and “has options” remaining, his team may option him to a minor league team without consequence. This is usually what is meant when players are “sent down” to the minors. Likewise, when a player on the 40-man roster is added to the active major league roster, he is “called up” to the majors.
Aren’t we the ones doing Detroit a favor by taking on Grandersons contract.???
i like romine
i think he will be good
laird is another interesting player
cervelli is not our future catcher
An offer of Ajax + Kennedy + Melancon or Robertson would probably get it done. If this is a Swisher/Abreu salary dump situation, I try everything possible to keep Jackson off the table.
you guys are way overvaluing Curtis Granderson. no way in hell Cash trades AJax,Hughes,Brackman and McCallister and comes back with Grandy….Josh Hamilton maybe or Ethier but Grandy is not worth anything having to do with Hughes…Johan Santana was the best pitcher in the game…Granderson isn’t the best anything…Hell i’d rather just sign Cameron for 1yr 8-10 mil and get better defense equal power production speed and keep my guys who may be really important to my future roster
JK-
IF your going to go this far for Granderson. why not just throw in Joba or Hughes and land Halladay
Ajax + Kennedy + Melancon or Robertson
What is with everyone and their “Montero is going to have to move to another position” talk?
He’s the same size as Mauer for goodness sakes!!!
Why trade for Granderson when you could just sign Mike Cameron? Cameron’s a little older, but they are about same player and the commitment to Cameron would probably be a lot less.
What kind of player does Laird/Curtis/Nova bring back?
I think DeJesus is a solid if unspectacular player. In Yankee Stadium I think you could expect 15-20 HRs and an average between .280-.310. Not too shabby if you ask me. He did hit .291 against LH pitchers last year with little power. He is an alternative to Damon if Damon really does exoect 3+ years on a contract.
pokey. Can he move and throw like mauer can? I haven’t seen him play in person so I’m just going on what I’ve read. Mauer is a very special dude and a great athlete for that size. It would be awesome if montero could stay behind the plate but there seems to be a lot of doubt out there from scouts.
Mike RI,
I said that would probably get it done. If it’s me I don’t do the deal with Jackson in it. Kennedy + Robertson or Melancon + another solid prospect would be my limit. Granderson has too many red flags to his game right now to go crazy.
As for Halladay, I’m not overpaying in prospects to get Tor to trade within the division and then handing over 20M+ per year to a starting pitcher starting at age 33.
Ivan Nova will need to be added to the 40 man also. He was returned to the Yanks this year after the Padres selected him in last year’s Rule 5 Draft and failed to keep him on the 25 man all year.
They certainly won’t leave him unprotected again.
MR.OCTOBER,
Laird = too far from majors & below avg. @ 3B defensively
Curtis = has no plus tools & is 25 next year
Nova = has great stuff but has not dominated minors.
I don’t think the Yanks will give up any of their top prospects for CG. Top prospectes don’t get traded anymore, especially in of offseason. I think the deal will end up looking a bit like last year’s Swisher deal, wich parts from the 40man roster clearing space.
Laura -
And CC was absolutely going to play on the west coast and Tex was going to play for either the O’s or Nats because he wanted to be close to home.
My rule of thumb is don’t believe any of what these guys say until the deal is signed.
Would love to see what some of you would have been willing to give up to get Swisher last year if you’re willing to give up so much to get Granderson.
“vin. I understand what you’re saying but they have babied both Hughes and joba much more than a lot of teams would have. the Yankees either have shut him down sent him down or sent him to the pen whenever he’s struggled. they just let Felix go and now he’s one of the best in baseball and Hughes is still in the infancy stages of his development as a starter.”
I’m not so sure they’ve “babied” Phil and Joba. The Yanks’ hardly invented the concept of innings limits. There have been numerous pitchers who broke down after throwing too much early in their careers. Guys like King Felix are the exception to the rule.
The Yanks only sent Hughes to the pen because they felt they had to get CMW back into the rotation (not a crazy though) and because Phil lobbied to move to the pen rather than go to SWB (can’t say I blame him). I do, however, wish they used Phil for more multi-inning appearances both for increasing his workload, and because Phil for 2 is better than Phil and anyone not named Mo for 1 each.
Cash and Girardi let Joba struggle in the rotation this year. They knew he wasn’t going to get a postseason start, so they moved him back to the pen for the playoffs (smart move). Even when they tried “babying” him down the stretch he didn’t give them any reason to warrant leaving him in for 6 or 7 innings.
I expect very big things from Joba next year. He needed to get smacked around a little on the field. Give him a little perspective as to just how hard it is to be a successful ML starter.
GB7 has seen Montero and Romine in action and can give a firsthand account, but everything I’ve heard says that Montero is very good and getting better behind the plate. The kid’s a freak of nature.
PHIL-
I think you hit the nail on the head. I can see cashman trying to trade spare parts from the 40 man or prospects with no spot that are too good to be left unprotected for a player that can contribute in 2010. 3 type B prospects that should be protected but dont have a spot on the 40 man for who is the question?
Chip
November 12th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Laura -
And CC was absolutely going to play on the west coast and Tex was going to play for either the O’s or Nats because he wanted to be close to home.
My rule of thumb is don’t believe any of what these guys say until the deal is signed.
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Chip-exactly. That’s a large part of why I hate the off season. It’s all just writers speculating for the most part.
Joba needs to get his butt in shape if he’s gonna do big things
blake
November 12th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
No way I’m trading romine for granderson. All reports say he is the catcher of the future because montero will likely need to play another position.
I wouldn’t give much more than Jackson for granserson
this why you couldn’t be the GM for the Yanks Austin Jackson has more value to the Yanks than Romine does and it’s not even close? AJax is pretty much major legue ready and we have no long term solutions in the OF and Behind him our best prospects are at least 3 years away…We have 7 high ceiling catchers in the system including at least 3(Montero,Murphy and Sanchez) that have higher ceilings than Romine….
I personally wouldn’t trade for Grandy but i was simply outlining how we could put together a very attractive package and not include Hughes,AJax,Montero or anyone that we may really need in the near future….
Most of you guys want Bruney let go
Laird-barring injury to ARod or Tex-has no future with this team and is prob 2yrs away and again i love Romine but tarding him is certainly trading from a position of strength in the organization.
GB7 that offer in no way represents giving up the farm…actually i wanted to pick your brain about who in your opinion will be the starting rosters and staff for Trenton and Tampa. You seem to share my interest and knowledge of our farm system(i noticed in a post yesterday your comments about being excited about Jose Mojica)i’ll post mine in a few
Hope you’re right pokey
JK
i dont trade robertson for cg when it is not needed
he is going to be good for us
for another player maybe
“Why trade for Granderson when you could just sign Mike Cameron? Cameron’s a little older, but they are about same player and the commitment to Cameron would probably be a lot less.”
I’m down with this plan.
Can we please stop with the Cameron stuff? PLEASE?!!!??!!??
Melky and Gardner are fine in CF.
I’m going out on a limb here and thinking A-Jax is trade bait, hence the reason he was not called up in Sept.
Montero’s body type is what makes some say he won’t stick at the position…He’s not as athletic as Mauer even though they are the same size but he’s more athletic than say Piazza
Champ. So I assume you could be the GM of the Yankees? Anyway several reports project that romine will replace posada and be the future catcher.
My point (which you clearly missed) was that I wouldn’t give up much for granderson in the way of top prospects
“I think the deal will end up looking a bit like last year’s Swisher deal, wich parts from the 40man roster clearing space.”
I don’t think his contract is bad enough (relative to his ability) to have a Swisher scenario. At worst, he’s owed 25.75 mill over the next 3 years (about 8.5 per year) if the club buys him out after 2012.
Abreu just signed for 2 years 19 million (8.5 per year). I’d rather have the 29 year old Granderson for 3 years than the 35 year old Abreu for 2 years.
I think Abreu’s contract helps set CG’s value around 10-12 mill per year.
Torii Hunter (who is both overrated and overpaid) is making 18 million over the next three years. I’d rather have Granderson than Hunter even if the money were the same.
Erin -
Off season is both frustrating and fun at the same time.
You can throw out wild ideas and convince yourself that almost anything is possible.
For example, I’m pretty excited about a lineup of:
Jeter
DeJesus – LF
Tex
Alex
Posada
Hawpe – RF
Swisher – DH
Cano
Gardner/Jackson – CF
and a rotation of:
CC, AJ, Andy, Joba, Hughes
If they could get granderson for a swisher type deal then that would be great but I think some of you forget that swisher was coming off a horrible season in which he didn’t even play half the time. I think the tigers think a little more highly of granderson than the chi sox did of swisher
Stuckey
November 12th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
“If he’s out LF or CF next year, we’re in deep trouble.”
There isn’t a baseball player alive that you can’t stick in left field that would put the Yankees in “deep trouble”.
If even its own FANS don’t recognize how deep this team is compared to others, something is wrong.
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Got to agree with Stuckey here.
Bring back Andy or go get another vet for the rotation.
Bring back either Johnnie or Sui.
There are vary few holes people. The heavy lifting was done durning last year’s off season. Just say no to another 80mil plus contract Hal.
I’m all for letting a few of the kids sink or swim.
AJax wasn’t called up because he wasn’t on the 40 man and they didn’t want to dump someone just to make room for him to barely play for a month. Plus he’d already reached his target number of ABs.
One thing I seem to be missing here is this. If the Yankees move *too many* of the Rule 5 eligibles onto the 40-man roster, then they’ll need to DFA *someone* to pare the roster down later.
Of the seven currently open spots I think at least one will be for Matsui or Damon, and one will be for either the other or a replacement FA. One is for AJax. That leaves four open spots. Hinske and Hairston might be re-signed, or if they’re not I’m not certain their replacements would come from the current 40-man. So there will be between two and four open spots before people start getting traded or cut or DFA’d.
Much as I like Shelley Duncan, I think his major league future is elsewhere; I’d look into trading him for younger players. Alas, the teams that could best use him may not have the prospects to swing a deal. The others who I consider possible trade-for-minorleaguers are Albaladejo, Melancon, Miranda and Ramirez. (I don’t think Brackman, Bruney, or Mitre have enough trade value at this point.)
So to me there *is* a small amount of roster crunch. Not enough to lose sleep over, but there are decisions — half a dozen or less — that need to be made.
Chip,
You would think if you were going to spend all day blasting Granderson you would actually look up some statistics. Ya know those silly little things that actually a lot more valuable than your asinine observations.
Curtis Granderson is absolutely a patient hitter. You do not walk 72 times if you are not a patient hitter.
Also, I loved your comment on how he does not fit the Yankees at all because he does not work pitchers. In his career his has averaged 4.06 pitches per plate appearance. That is a better career number than Johnny Damon, Mark Teixeria, Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Jorge Posada, and Hideki Matsui.
Baseball Reference. Spend some time over there and then come back.
Granderson is probably going to bounce back and be better than Cameron going forward. Plus he’s left handed and we need that for our homefield advantage.
Also an outfield with David DeJesus and Melky/Gardner is an absolute joke.
AJax is not trade bait….as far as the handling of King Felix vs Hughes the advantage that teams not named the Yanks have is they can bring young players along without the pressure of immediately being all star calliber players and being part of a “we have to win the world series every year” mentality from owners and idiots in the fanbase
King Felix is a good example his first full season in the league he went 12-14/190ip/195hits/60walks/176Ks/4.52era
Joba’s line last year his first full year is very similar and the fans are calling him a bust,want him moved to the pen or traded which is just stupid. if it wasn’t for the silly way that the yanks used Joba from August on he’d have had a much better year actually but again we were trying to win it all not just get our young guys experience so that we’ll be good in 2 years..
G. Love
I have no sentamentality toward DeJesus. I dont care if he’s from Rutgers or Shmutgers.
He would be nice in the Number 2 hole if there is no Damon. He has a career 358 OBP. He might even be able to play CF, I think he has in the past. He has speed, and a bit of power.
I am most concerned with our Number 2 hole next season. If Damon does not come back, it could go to a signing or trade of ours, or in house, Swish, Cano, or Melky. I’d rather have Cano if that situation arises, but Dejesus would make a nice fit.
Lets go Yanks- Formely lets go twins
Granderson has struck out 567 times the last 4 years. That’s an average of 142 times a season
Im all set with Soriano Jr. thats not what you want at the top of your lineup
LGY -
What’s the number one complaint that we (as Yankee fans) had about Alfonso Soriano? It was that when he didn’t get a hit he also wasn’t doing anything to advance the guys on base. That’s Curtis Granderson.
His OBP was a poor .327 (which is fine from a guy batting 8 or 9 I suppose but not a guy you’re looking to set the table ahead of Tex and Alex)
His career BA vs. LHP is .210
And my argument was never that he was a bad player, just that he’s not the right player for this team and certainly not worth the players it would take to get him.
Melky showing off the stone for the WS ring.
http://www.gettyimages.com/det.....ertainment
pat
November 12th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Melky showing off the stone for the WS ring.
http://www.gettyimages.com/det…..ertainment
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pat, that’s a great picture! Did anybody go see Melky at Macy’s?
LGY -
Please go back to rooting for the Twins.
The Yankees won a World Series with Melky and Damon in CF & LF and DeJesus is certainly an upgrade defensively over Damon.
argh, I forgot they need to leave a spot for Pettitte (or *his* replacement). That adds a bit to what roster crunch there is.
Champ. I think the thing that concerns people with joba is not that he struggled. Its how he’s struggled and the diminished velocity and bite on the slider. Maybe its from a lingering injury or maybe its just cause he’s out of shape. When Felix was struggleing his stuff was the same
new thread
vin
November 12th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
“Why trade for Granderson when you could just sign Mike Cameron? Cameron’s a little older, but they are about same player and the commitment to Cameron would probably be a lot less.”
I’m down with this plan.
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we are at least as good with cameron for a year & maybe ajax takes off & solves a lot
also ajax will be under control for years for pennies
that is the tough thing cashman has to decide
why not sign damon,cameron,etc & keep our kids until a better more permanent solution comes along?
as long as our pitching is good we are fine
would anybody trade joba,ajax,montero for king felix & is that enough?
“Joba’s line last year his first full year is very similar and the fans are calling him a bust,want him moved to the pen or traded which is just stupid.”
No, stupid fans and sports talk hosts who need to fill 4 hours a day are calling him a “bust.”
I know what you’re saying on this issue, and I agree that it may SEEM difficult to bring along a young pitcher in NY vs. Seattle. However, Hughes was handed a spot in the rotation at 21. Joba was handed his at 22.
Both guys missed development time because of injuries, not because of the “NY pressure cooker.” 2010 will be big for these guys.
On one hand I’d feel more comfortable if another starter was brought in to replace CMW because these last few years of Jeter/Mo/Posada/Andy’s careers need to be win-now. However, I really hope Joba and Phil get the chance to start for the entire year and succeed.
Unless suddenly all players in the league that strike out a lot are the same players then the comparison of Soriano and Granderson are not at all alike.
Soriano walks half as much as Granderson and sees much less pitches per plate attempt. Granderson is also a superior defender while Soriano is a below average defender. Yeah,so aside from the SO, they are not similar at all.
Granderson had one bad OBP year. You do not judge players based on one season. The two seasons before he had OBP in the 360s. Soriano’s highest career OBP was .351.
Stats can be deceptive with regard to Granderson. He walked 72 times in 631AB.By contrast Damon walked 71 times in 550AB and only had 98 SO as opposed to 141 SO for Granderson. Matsui had 64 BB in only 456 AB and only 70 SO. Seeing pitches only to eventually K does very little to help the team.
Mike Ashmore has some video of Texeira on his blog: http://thunderbaseball.wordpress.com/
just scroll down and you’ll see his links. probably some articles on there too that i remember throughout the year that will talk about KT.
i was also at the games in NB at the end of the year and he come in in relief at the end of one game, but they got the better of him that night. the next game he was called upon as well and he shut ‘em down for more than one inning!!! he is one of those guys that can just let it go and move on and want the ball the next day. he threw a TON of innings this year (~100 to last season’s ~60). he can go one out or one inning, but he can also definitely go several at a time if needed. that seems to make him valuable i would think.
Good read on DeJesus:
“over the last three seasons, DeJesus has been practically equal in value to Hunter (whose overrated-ness is seriously underrated) and Damon (just plain overrated); DeJesus has been more valuable than Ethier and Jason “Do People Seriously Think I’m Anywhere Close to as Good as Matt Holliday?” Bay. All five are good, but would DeJesus ever be offered a 5/$90M deal? Would his agent ever compare him to Derek Jeter? Would anyone bother comparing DeJesus to Holliday? Would you take anyone seriously who said that “Ethier is a fourth outfielder on a good team?”
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....ns-destiny
His diminished velocity was mainly due to him throwing more two seamers and fewer four seamers as Joba himself said..as far as the slider it’s a “feel” pitch in the ‘pen Joba is strictly 4 seam fastball/slider pitcher so you see consistantly higher velo readings and a sharper slider.
as a starter the Yanks had him throwing more 2 seamers and pitching more to contact in an effort to keep his pitch count down-hence the 92-92mph fastballs- and also he was mixing in his curve,change and even a cutter into his repertoire and lost some “feel” for the slider…i think that with Joba if he continues to work on command and feel for all his pitches on any given day he should stick with the 3 best that he has and he’ll be dominant…in my mind he’s a 4seam fastball/Curve/slider guy throwing the occasional change to the lefty and only throwing the 2seamer if he’s in a jam and needs a doubleplay..but again this is all part of development…and as an aside i doubt very seriously you watched everyone of King Felix’s 2006 starts to know if he had his good stuff when he struggled through that season
Nice read on DeJesus Tom. I am a real fan of his and realize that he is one of the few potential players who could replace Damon’s skill set and would more than likely improve his numbers with Tex and Arod behind him.
For those that missed the totals from the AFL yesterday:
Brandon Laird: 2-5 with a double (6) and a 2 run homer (6). He’s hitting .321 with a league tying 24 RBI and 2nd in homers.
Kennedy got knocked around in 4.1 innings. 7 hits, 4 runs (earned), 1 walk, 4 strikeouts.
Dunn was racked up in .2 innings for 2 hits, 3 runs (earned), 1 walk, 2 strikeouts, 1 homer allowed.