Tellem: Matsui is “ageless”
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If you’re looking for some light reading on this Friday evening, you might be interested in a piece that Arn Tellem – otherwise known as Hideki Matsui’s agent – wrote for The Huffington Post about … Hideki Matsui.
The arguments for and against Matsui figure to rage on for a while. On one hand, he’s just a DH (albeit one who can really hit). On the other hand, he’s a DH – who can really hit! Not surprisingly, Tellem thinks Matsui has a lot left.
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on Friday, November 13th, 2009 at 7:51 pm by Sam Borden.
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Chad Jennings
Josh Thomson
I am going to post this one more time in more of an appreciation for Robinson Cano type of thing:
2009:
OPS+
Kemp: 125
Cano: 129
So, are Matsui & Vlad the only two DH’s on the market? How does anyone really know if Matsui can play in the OF if he didn’t all year?
Matsui has an ageless bat. Only his knees are mortal.
One thing we should have learned from Dice-K saga is Japanese are human too, therefore following the regular human’s mechanics.They age, and have wear& tear in a long marathon of 162 games.
Welcome back, Sam. Hope you had a nice vacation.
Matsui is anything but ageless. Good try though by his agent.
sign matsui as a DH, its Damon we might not NEED back, i hate watching him try to throw. But he still can hit too… On another not how in the world did Cano not get a silver slugger and/or a gold glove! he has better numbers than polanco and hill (other than HRs), right?
For Erica and Erin.
Separated at birth: Howard Cosell and Count von Count.
Matui’s knees would like a word with Arn.
Erin-
If you are out there….. I am not sure where you live, but I discovered tonight thast Bob from Sesame Street will be making an appearance on 12/3 at the Barnes & Noble in Carle Place, Long Island
Love Cano, but, the winners of the Silver Slugger and Gold Glove awards were correct.
So, are Matsui & Vlad the only two DH’s on the market? How does anyone really know if Matsui can play in the OF if he didn’t all year?
—————————————–
Market flooded with DH types
Huff
Guerrero
Hinske
Nady
Garciaparra
Blalock
Giambi
Matsui
Thome
Sheffield
Giles
Kearns
Dimitri Young
Cashman has already said Matsui is a DH for Yankees and other GMs agree.
GreenBeret7
November 13th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
For Erica and Erin.
Separated at birth: Howard Cosell and Count von Count.
*******
You are right… very odd. Btw, LOVING Count Von Count being named TV’s hottest vampire by TV guide
I go to that Barnes and Noble all the time……..I doubt I’ll be making the trip for Bob, though
Isn’t that unusual for a player’s agent to be writing articles in defense of his player? I sometimes read the Huffington Post, but obviously it’s not a sports blog – why is he posting that there? In any case, if Matsui insists on playing in the OF, he won’t be back.
I love the Count, lol – and what a sexy accent.
Erica – always OPPC
November 13th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
GreenBeret7
November 13th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
For Erica and Erin.
Separated at birth: Howard Cosell and Count von Count.
*******
You are right… very odd. Btw, LOVING Count Von Count being named TV’s hottest vampire by TV guide
————————————————————
Was never a sesame street groupy, but, my granddaughters made me watch it with them, followed by Mr. Robinson’s….errrr….Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. I did enjoy the Count though. The girls used to count with him….in his voice. Talk about something being hilariously priceless.
Betsy-
This ones for you… It’s called “The Count Censored”. Its hilarious. Someone bleeps the count for no reason
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Wd-Q3F8KM
On Granderson:
If traded the Yankees and quite a few other teams will be in the mix.
Don’t assume AJAX will be traded in that deal.
Watched clutch fielding plays on MLB last night-showed Granderson leaping high, reaching over the wall and snagging a sure homerun. Can anyone remember one of our outfielders doing that this year? I can’t!
On Matsui-one year, no more than 9M, same as Abreu, who actually is more valuable.
i maybe agree with polanco getting the gold glove, but i think cano was better than Hill in most catagories but HRs and RBIs. Much better average, more hits, better OBP, less Ks, etc.
Loved Mr. Roger’s, though the only thing I can now remember about the show was him tying his shoes and a train (i think) that would drive by.
Speaking of trains, has anyone ever seen that show with the talking trains that had faces? I cant remember the name of it, but it was one that I can remember watching ALL the time.
Me, I’m a Bing Devine with froggy “pluck your magic twanger” and Soupy Sales kind of guy!!!
GB7- Remember them don’t you.
Soupy was the Pieman long before AJ!!!
Erica, was that really an original clip from the Street (I mean without the bleeping)? LOL That was hysterical……..My favorites were Cookie Monster (C is for Cookie!), Oscar the Grouch and the Count. I actually preferred Electric Company and I did love Mr. Roger’s neighborhood. However, the town consisted of a baker and a mailman – no policeman, no fire chief, no nothing. I loved X the Owl and the Trolley……..
Christina, Thomas the Tank Engine?
We make fun of Mr. Rogers at work (affectionately, though) -his sweater, his goldfish and his cheesy songs. Won’t you be my Neighbor? Say that to someone today and you’ll get arrested…….
Shining Time Station?
Betsy
November 13th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Erica, was that really an original clip from the Street (I mean without the bleeping)? LOL That was hysterical……..My favorites were Cookie Monster (C is for Cookie!), Oscar the Grouch and the Count. I actually preferred Electric Company and I did love Mr. Roger’s neighborhood. However, the town consisted of a baker and a mailman – no policeman, no fire chief, no nothing. I loved X the Owl and the Trolley……..
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yeah, that was a real Sesame Street song. The just bleeped everytime he said “count”. LOL
Wallace Matthews brought up Soupy Sales to AJ around the time Sales died…..funny article, lol. AJ didn’t know who he was. He mentioned that they don’t use crust in the pies because they don’t have time for them (I guess the Easy Bake oven is not an option),lol
As far as the Silver Slugger award goes, and I love Robbie, it is called the Silver SLUGGER award. Hill had more HR’s and more RBI’s…he was the better “slugger”. Plus Robbie had a tough year driving in RISP (.207).
Well, the way the Count was going on – I mean, really. I thought he was going throw himself against the wall. I think he had a little too much blood to drink that day…..what a nut. It makes me want to go to You Tube and check out more clips, lol
Here’s the same song without the bleaps, but with the words so you can sing along.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhUFxaauNTE
COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE
Betsy, it wasnt Thomas. It was a show, I think there were like 3 trains, somehow they all had these faces, and this conductor. I wish I could remember what it was called. It had to be around in the mid 90’s?
As for Silver Slugger, Aaron Hill deserved that award, without doubt. The combo of him and Lind this year was amazing.
It was probably Shiny Time Station, which is what Thomas the Tank Engine was originally called in America. Two different names, same franchise.
GB, thanks! LOL that song sounds like a Jewish folk song…….like a weird version of Hava Negilah
Yes, Phil! Thats it. Man, I loved that show.
For the Sesame Street Mafia
http://www.nydailynews.com/ent.....treet.html
52 great photos, including some Yankees
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shbgRyColvE
Arriverderci, Frog!
Classic – more Kermit and Cookie Monster…….and I love when Kermit gets that chagrined look on his face
Kevin Page
Yes I’m estatic about getting CC, Tex and AJ. But when is it enough? I’m not suggesting the Yankees stand pat or rest on their laurels. But I would like SOME balance in the league and at least some of the teams being able to lock up their star/homegrown players.
It’s good for the spot in the longturn
I dont understand this kind of thinking at all. I am not at all interested in the well being of the sport, all I care about is the Yankees. If it means that we have to sign every single big name free agent to win, then so be it. If teams start locking up their homegrown players, we wont get the opportunity to sign players like CC, AJ or Tex. And unlike the Red Sox, teams wont trade with us /gift us players for nothing.
Yankee Trader
November 13th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
Me, I’m a Bing Devine with froggy “pluck your magic twanger” and Soupy Sales kind of guy!!!
GB7- Remember them don’t you.
Soupy was the Pieman long before AJ!!!
————————————————————
Oh, yeah. I remember Andy’s Gang. Incidently, he was also born in Kalamazoo, Michigan….just a few years before a noted Yankee shortstop went to school there.
CD
November 13th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
For the Sesame Street Mafia
http://www.nydailynews.com/ent…..treet.html
52 great photos, including some Yankees
*********
Sesame Street Mafia… I like that
CD, thanks – funny pics!
The above is most certainly NOT Jacob Ruppert.
Well the http://www.theonion.com continues it’s hate campaign against the Yankees.This is a Really Vulgar article,under the sports, baseball tab.The last couple of sentences are offensive!
My mistake, it is him! He was resonding correctly to a quote!
I forgot to say that not only was the Luis Castillo dropped ball one of the best moments of the season, but the David Ortiz steroid use story was also on the top of that list including this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHi46mDmg8M
lol !
I’m going to feel like a huge loser saying this, but I was a huge fan of a certain pop group back in the day and can still remember watching them make a cameo on Sesame Street
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI1uziAXXuQ
Tellem put on his “Boras face”. Why not? If Boras can dispense (try anyway) snake oil, Tellem can do likewise. Remember two years ago Boras was touting Arod as the guy who could play at a high level until the age of 45!!
Both Damon and Hideki are on a severe downward slope. If Cashman buys either for more than a year, I would be surprised (though not shocked).
Jermaine Dye is a good DH/OF candidate
Betsy
November 13th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
GB, thanks! LOL that song sounds like a Jewish folk song…….like a weird version of Hava Negilah
————————————————————
Yeah, well, the Count was Jewish. He stole the tune from Hava Nagila.
As far as the Silver Slugger award goes, and I love Robbie, it is called the Silver SLUGGER award. Hill had more HR’s and more RBI’s…he was the better “slugger”. Plus Robbie had a tough year driving in RISP (.207).
_______________________
Trouble is many times it doesn’t go to the better “SLUGGER”. If it were the case of power hitting, how did Ichiro get one with 11 HR’s?
______________
Regarding Shining Time Station (my kids watched this show all the time)…. George Carlin and Ringo Star played the part of Mr. Conductor. Ringo did the better job in my opinion, but both were interesting to watch in that role.
Ringo always seemed to popular with kids. When he was a Beatle kids always overwhelmingly named him as their favorite of the Fab Four.
______
Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood, that show was really out of the era it would have been best in. Some of the names were especially creepy… Mr. McFeely? For a kids show? The puppets…
_______
Soupy Sales – wasn’t he with the last years of Wonderama? I remember Soupy Sales and his pies.
I think we can probably forget Granderson:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....rson-rumor
and
According to Steve Kornacki of MLive.com, a Curtis Granderson trade is “unlikely to happen” this winter.
Tigers general manager Dave Dombrowski suggested the same thing Wednesday, yet rumors are still streaming in from all over involving some of the Tigers’ bigger stars. “My personal feeling is that Detroit is not going to trade Curtis Granderson,” an unnamed American League executive said Friday. “He’s like (Cleveland’s) Grady Sizemore. They don’t come along very often and Detroit is blessed to have him.”
Source: MLive.com
Betsy
November 13th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shbgRyColvE
Arriverderci, Frog!
Classic – more Kermit and Cookie Monster…….and I love when Kermit gets that chagrined look on his face
————————————————————
I always thought that look was caused by frog gas.
What the hell is going on w/John Wetteland? I read he was hospitalized w/elevated blood pressure and heart rate. The alarming part of what I read was that he was allegedly “depressed and suicidal”.
Damn, John, keep it together man. Our prayers are with you.
The Count is one of my clan? I knew it all along…….
Abadaba, McFeely was Mr. Rogers’ mother’s maiden name………we call Mr. McFeely “Mr.McFeelup”……..
Oy, GB…….
Jim Henson was born on my birthday – he died way too young. After that, Kermit was never the same; his son did a fine job, but Jim Henson could never be replaced.
Jacob Ruppert
November 13th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Kevin Page
Yes I’m estatic about getting CC, Tex and AJ. But when is it enough? I’m not suggesting the Yankees stand pat or rest on their laurels. But I would like SOME balance in the league and at least some of the teams being able to lock up their star/homegrown players.
————————————————————
Competitive balance is when the Yankees win everything, every year and all others are sucking air.
Erica – always OPPC
November 13th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Erin-
If you are out there….. I am not sure where you live, but I discovered tonight thast Bob from Sesame Street will be making an appearance on 12/3 at the Barnes & Noble in Carle Place, Long Island
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Erica-that’s awesome. I’m actually in Illinois, so that’s a little out of my area. LOL I was really mad last weekend-they were having a Jim Henson weekend at the Siskel Film Center, and I only found out about it the day it was happening. I would have loved to have gone.
CD
November 13th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
For the Sesame Street Mafia
http://www.nydailynews.com/ent…..treet.html
52 great photos, including some Yankees
*******************
I’ll consider myself a proud member.
The Sesame Street Mafia…love it
Erin, for some reason I never watched Sesame Street much as a kid. Did you ever watch Alf? That was another show I never missed as a kid. My mom said I constantly watching Mr. Ed too, though that was way too long ago for me to remember.
Betsy, I can understand using a maiden name for something like that show, but when its a name like that on a show for kids you might just want to rethink things and honor her using maybe her first name, no?
Fred Rogers was a gentle soul, though. He was a minister.
Christina-I Loved ALF. I had a stuffed ALF and everything. I wish they would show reruns-that was a great show.
The first muppet I remember ever being on TV was back around 1961 or 1962 when Rowf The Dog was a weekly guest on The Jimmy Dean Show. Rowf and Roy Clark. Clark sang at Mickey Mantle’s funeral. great song and fitting tribute to the Mick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEY4LxORCeo
GreenBeret7
November 13th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
For Erica and Erin.
Separated at birth: Howard Cosell and Count von Count.
*******************
Too funny
I preferred Eddie Murphy’s “Mr. Robinson’s Neighborhood” on SNL.
Mr. Ed is the best, lol. I used to watch it on Nick at Night – now I have the DVDs
Abadaba, definitely. He would have hated the pies,lol – the reason why he went into tv was because he didn’t like the pie throwing kind of comedy that was available on tv. He thought it was demeaning…….or something like that.
GB,is that the When I was Young song? That always makes me cry ……
Congratulations Robinson Cano on winning the Silver Slacker Award?
Mr. Ed….”Hello, Willllbbbuuurrrr.”
Here you go, Betsy. A little baseball action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVm-HwAkVp8
“I am going to post this one more time in more of an appreciation for Robinson Cano type of thing:
2009:
OPS+
Kemp: 125
Cano: 129″
Amazing how many people want to get rid of the guy, isn’t it?
GB- I love that!! Mr. Ed brings me back to my childhood.
“As far as the Silver Slugger award goes, and I love Robbie, it is called the Silver SLUGGER award. Hill had more HR’s and more RBI’s…he was the better “slugger”. Plus Robbie had a tough year driving in RISP (.207).”
Robinson actually had a higher “slugging” percentage.
Cano’s misunderstood. Fifty years ago people loved Willie Mays for smiling so much, now they hold it against Cano.
Mr Ed, My Favorite Marian, Please Don’t Eat the Daisies, The Ghost and Mrs. Muir. All shows from my younger years… My Mother the Car… boy, they don’t make shows like those anymore. lol.
GB, lol – thanks! That’s an all-time classic scene…….what a bum Koufax was, giving up a shot to a horse.
Leo Durocher was also in an episode of the Munsters…….another great show.
Betsy
November 13th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Abadaba, definitely. He would have hated the pies,lol – the reason why he went into tv was because he didn’t like the pie throwing kind of comedy that was available on tv. He thought it was demeaning…….or something like that.
GB,is that the When I was Young song? That always makes me cry ……
————————————————————
Yes. “Yesterday, When I Was Young”. another great song is by The Pretenders, “Forever Young”, a Bob Dylan cover.
Dick Van Dyke show as well……I Love Lucy….Patty Duke Show. I’m too young to have watched these “live” as it were, but thanks to cable tv…………Car 54 Where are You was a dorky show, but I liked it anyway, lol.
I think Robbie’s hitting with RISP hurt him a bit with the Silver Slugger award. The perception about him isn’t as good as it should be.
His defense is very good, and his arm is amazing. His trouble is he makes it look too easy, and when he misses people think its because he is lazy. So many of the plays where he missed were really close. I think he is far too under-rated for what he does.
I listened to that just now and I will do so again later….I really love it. I might also go listen to the Green Beret song by Barry Sadler – I love that, too.
Ooh, ooh! Loved that show Car 54… The Honeymooners, McHale’s Navy, F Troop, Hogan’s Heroes, Get Smart, I Dream of Jeanie, Bewitched… amazing how many shows were on that I watched.
Christina: Pictures from the Yankees Parade
November 13th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
I’m going to feel like a huge loser saying this, but I was a huge fan of a certain pop group back in the day and can still remember watching them make a cameo on Sesame Street
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI1uziAXXuQ
*******
Christina-
I know a woman who used to do PR for Sesame Street. The day NSYNC came to shoot, was a closed set because they dodn’t want every employee bringing everyone they know. So the woman brought her video camera to work with her so her daughter could see later. She got some great footage of the guys playing with the puppets. Lance in particular, was really funny with Cookie Monster.
However, in the background Ernie and Bert were hanging in a locker. I will not lie, I may have been 20, but this was quite traumatizing and I may have cried……
Erica – always OPPC
November 13th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
However, in the background Ernie and Bert were hanging in a locker. I will not lie, I may have been 20, but this was quite traumatizing and I may have cried……
******************
I don’t blame you. I would have cried too.
I loved I Dream of Jeannie and Bewitched…..Brady Bunch, Gilligan’s Island. Ok, they weren’t Shakespeare, but they weren’t supposed to be……..
To be fair here:
WAR:
Kemp: 5
Cano: 4.4
Now because Kemp plays in the AL, you subtract (approximately) .5 from his WAR and add (approximately) .5 to Cano’s, to get the estimated WAR’s of:
Kemp: 4.5
Cano: 4.9
Very, very similar. For our purposes we’ll say they’re identical WAR’s, since we’re only approximating league differences.
However, Kemp plays CF, and elite CF’ers are harder to find as evidenced here:
Top 5 2b:
1. Zobrist 8.6
2. Utley 7.6
3. Pedroia 5.2
4. Kinsler 4.6
5. Lopez 4.6
(Cano was 6th in 2009)
Top 5 CF:
1. Gutierrez 5.9
2. Kemp 5.0
3. Morgan 4.9
4. Cameron 4.3
5. Bourn 4.2
Plus, Kemp is two years younger.
Basically, the two players are almost of exactly the same value, but with a gun to my head I think I’d have to take Kemp. It’s no slam dunk though, and I’m by no means advocating Kemp for Cano in a trade-not at all. There are arguements in Cano’s favor such as:
Kemp strikes out ALOT
Kemp has a pretty significant split. He destroys LHP but is pretty average in comparison against RHP.
Cano is a lefty in YS which clearly is an advantage
Cano as a lefty is just as good against LHP which is really valuable
Basically, neither team would make the trade anyway and we have one of the top six, by WAR 2b in the league, and Pedroia (at 5.0) hits significantly better in the Sardine Can, so you can make a good arguement that Cano is a top five 2b in baseball. We shouldn’t trade him.
Everyone is at Torre’s event tonight…
bryanhoch — Someone also asked Jeter to take a picture. Derek grabbed the camera and took a picture of the kid. Not what he meant. Good stuff.
5 minutes ago from Power Twitter
—
bryanhoch — Some entertainment reporter asked Jeter how he & Minka are celebrating. “Come on now,” he said.
Betsy
November 13th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
GB, lol – thanks! That’s an all-time classic scene…….what a bum Koufax was, giving up a shot to a horse.
Leo Durocher was also in an episode of the Munsters…….another great show.
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One of the other great ’60s tv shows was “McHale’s Navy”. Ernest Borgnie, Tim Conway, Carl Ballentine, Gavin McLeod. Conway was unbelievably funny. He did one show that had the PT-109 in it with Conway imitating the PT skipper. He did a great John Kennedy.
I know CF is an important position, but I tend to value infield defense up the middle a bit more.
I think you have to have pretty quick reflexes to play 2nd or SS. In CF you need speed and good routes.
I wouldn’t give up Cano in any trade. While I would prefer to see a better player in Center Field than Melky and Gardner, if it came down to Cano or Kemp I think I would go with Cano. Kemp is a very good player, so is Cano. The age difference doesn’t mean all that much to me.
Betsy
November 13th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
I listened to that just now and I will do so again later….I really love it. I might also go listen to the Green Beret song by Barry Sadler – I love that, too.
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Barry Sadler was quite a talented guy. Wrote music, novels. He had quite a war record. We were in the same SF group in Vietnam, but, he lefy a year or so before I got there. He has about 12 other songs on an alblum…”A Salute To The Nurses Of Vietnam”, “A Trooper’s Lament” and “I’m Watching The Raindrops Fall” being the best. I have them all loaded on the computer.
The thing is, it’s harder to find a premier player at CF than it is at 2b. Which is why Kemp is so vluable.
Get Erik Bedard! Type B free agent and has potential to become dominant
Why in God’s name is Matt Kemp and Robinson Cano joined at the hip? I doubt they’ve even met each other but they are constantly mentioned in the same breath on this blog. There was never a trade on the table for those two guys and there never will be. Please just forget it
People were discussing it so I compared the two.
You’re right, their names never have been and most likely never will be mentioned in trade talks.
There really aren’t many premier players in baseball at CF or 2B. Trading Cano would be just opening up one hole to fill another, which is pointless. He’s a top 5 2B with upside still. He’s going nowhere unless the deal could bring a young elite starting pitcher, which trumps everything..
If they were to go the low risk/high reward route then I’d rather go with Sheets than Bedard. Sheets is a stud when he’s healthy and is a great competitor.
There are a lot of very good 2B in the league but yes Cano is one of the better ones
Aaron Hill, Dustin Pedroia, Ian Kinsler, Chase Utley, Brian Roberts, Ben Zobrist and yes Robinson Cano
Agents have no clue about how stupid they sound.
The first time that Ben Zobrist or Jason Bartlett can repeat a season like 2009 without using loaded bats, let me know.
GB&, were Bartlett and Zobrist breaking the rules?
If they were, you have a point. If they weren’t, why does it matter?
*Supposed to be GB7. Sorry.*
I said premier not good.
Aaron hill- one good year, hit 2 hr’s in 2008.
Pedroia – is premier
Utley- is premier
Kinsler- is premier
Zobrist- not there yet, only one good year so far.
Cano- premier.
So by my count there are 4 or 5 elite 2B in baseball, I’d say Cano is the 4th best in baseball but has the highest ceiling of any of them. He’s already better defensively than Utley.
Cano is not better than Utley defensively by UZR.
Cano is better defensively by MEBT. (my eyeball test). Defensive stats are worthless for the most part. Utley can’t get to anything as a middle infielder and has throwing issues at times. Of course he’s Roy Hobbs with the bat so…
Oh and Robbie turns the DP better than anyone in the game and much better than Utley.
I totally, completely, and utterly disagree that defensive stats are worthless.
Defensive stats look at every play made by every fielder of every game of the year.
We look at certain plays at certain times, and then we’re going by memory, which is biased and subjective.
While UZR has flaws, and I was originally against it completely, I do believe it measures second base defense fairly accurately.
Ok I will retract that they are totally worthless, but they certainly don’t tell the whole story. Just because the UZR says Utley is better defensively than Cano, do you believe that?
BTW, how do you know Utley’s arm isn’t as accurate?
You’re going by 2 errors in 2 games (the 2 playoff games v. the Dodgers). Utley played over 162 games this year.
That’s like saying that Robbie Cano is a bad defender (which he isn’t) because of that one game v. the Angels where he made 2 errors.
I will trust the guys who watch every player make every play and are completely subjective than someone who has only seen the players play certain games and who has a subjective, biased view of events.
“Just because the UZR says Utley is better defensively than Cano, do you believe that?”
Yes, I do. Absolutely.
Things it DOESN’T measure accuartely: 1b and C defense, which is why Tex may be a little better than the numbers show.
Wait
You mean “completely objective” in the first part.
CR9-
You are correct.
My bad.
Wait till we do it all Over Again
November 13th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
GB&, were Bartlett and Zobrist breaking the rules?
If they were, you have a point. If they weren’t, why does it matter?
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When players in their late 20s double their home run totals in one season, after playing 4-5 years in the majors, they’re loading something. It wasn’t just the number, it was the distance and location of where they went….opposite field and right and left center. That’s over 400 feet by a shortstop that doubled his 5 year total and a career minor leaguer that doubled and tripled his career numbers in the same number of at bats.
Excuse me, you don’t know a thing about me. Don’t assume that I haven’t seen Utley play. I watch a ton of baseball and happen to know a thing or two about playing middle infield. I don’t just watch Yankee games like some of you do. I watch any game thats on and have watched the Phillies play a ton. Utley’s arm isn’t as strong or accurate as Cano. I never said he was Steve Sax or Knoblach, I was comparing him to Cano. If you think Utley is a better defender than Cano then you are just flat wrong and we will just have to disagree on that one.
Wait
I pointed it out just in case someone tried to pick apart everything you said because of one accidental mistype.
blake-I never said you didn’t watch a lot of baseball. Not at all. I’m sure you do, and good for you.
What I DID say was that there are people out there who watch every single play of every single game and compare them to every other fielder of that position. And I know that they are very objective. And I know the statistic they use.
Utley may have a weaker arm than Cano, but he does have more range. You may disagree, but it’s similar to saying somebody with a BA of 290 is a better hitter than a guy with a BA of 300. The stats just don’t add up.
However,since I DON’T watch Utley play a lot, I will take your word for it that Robbie has the better arm.
GB7-Interesting that you say that; you’re the only person I’ve ever seen bring that up.
That’s an interesting perspective.
“Cano’s misunderstood. Fifty years ago people loved Willie Mays for smiling so much, now they hold it against Cano.”
Don’t even mention Cano and Mays in the same sentence.
I’m not sure who “they” are that you are talking about but if you think Utley has more range than Cano then you are entitled to that opinion.
The overall point that I was trying to make before going off on this tangent was that Cano is a good 2B with several years of major league experience that still has upside, thats hard to find at any position.
“They” are the people who calculate these statistics.
Could we compare Cano to Willie Mays Hays?
“The overall point that I was trying to make before going off on this tangent was that Cano is a good 2B with several years of major league experience that still has upside, thats hard to find at any position.”
THAT point I agree with.
I love Robi but I am sorry he is not even in the same league as Utley defensively
“they” are stat nerds who for the most part haven’t played an inning of baseball past tee-ball.
Wait till we do it all Over Again
November 13th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
GB7-Interesting that you say that; you’re the only person I’ve ever seen bring that up.
That’s an interesting perspective.
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I doubt that it’s steroids. If I had to guess, steroids at the very most would increase numbers by 10%. I don’t think they keep a player on the field in the heat of Texas, either as some have said about Rodriguez. That’s bull. Texas had a catcher back in the 79s and 80s named Jim Sundberg was catching 145-150 games a year for 6 years. Which is more likely to be strength draining…catching 145-150 games or playing shortstop in 160 games?
well for 1 willie mays hays obviously has more speed, and is great at hustling on the courts with woody harrelson
I’m sorry guys, 2 or 3 years ago I would have agreed with you but Cano has improved in that time and Utley has regressed with age and the hip injury. He doesn’t move like he used to and it affects his range and throwing especially when he goes to he right..
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
November 13th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
I love Robi but I am sorry he is not even in the same league as Utley defensively
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Perhaps you’d like to look at the numbers, besides the only one that supports your arguement There’s vitually no difference in their numbers on defense.
I like cano…however after watching Utley in the world series hit 5 homeruns and carry the phillies pretty much by himself and watch cano be an AUTOMATIC out…we really should not be comparing the two..I think cano is a better fielder but right now utley is the better player
Utely is 30 and Cano is 27. Utely may be slowed by his hip surgery but he hasn’t regressed because of his age. And he hit in the World Series unlike Cano who did absolutely nothing at the plate.
I’ve looked at the numbers and they are virtually a wash over the last couple years. From watching them play I think Cano can make some plays that Utley can’t and thats why I think he’s better. Utley is a solid defender but he doesn’t have the athletic ability or arm strength that Cano does. Also Cano still has room to improve defensively where Utley has probably peaked with the glove.
Perhaps you’d like to look at the numbers, besides the only one that supports your arguement There’s vitually no difference in their numbers on defense.
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What? Can you rephrase that?
Never said Cano was a better overall player. Utley is a significantly better hitter at this point, especially against good pitching. Was talking strictly about defense. Regressed was probably the wrong word to describe Utley but I do think he has slowed a bit.
Enough Pitching Changes
November 13th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
I like cano…however after watching Utley in the world series hit 5 homeruns and carry the phillies pretty much by himself and watch cano be an AUTOMATIC out…we really should not be comparing the two..I think cano is a better fielder but right now utley is the better player
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And until this year, Utley did absolutely zip in the post season.
blake
November 13th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
I’ve looked at the numbers and they are virtually a wash over the last couple years. From watching them play I think Cano can make some plays that Utley can’t and thats why I think he’s better. Utley is a solid defender but he doesn’t have the athletic ability or arm strength that Cano does. Also Cano still has room to improve defensively where Utley has probably peaked with the glove.
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How are they a wash?
Utley’s UZR over the past three years is 15.5
Cano’s is -0.6
Look at their fielding %, ZR, and RF. If you’re going to look at one defensive nerd stat you have to look at all of them. The rest are virtually the same.
Rose,
Cano and Mays both starterd their major league careers in New York.
Watcha gonna do about it?
The Yankees have mostly flyball and strikeout pitchers. Therefore their infielders don’t get as many chances as some teams and that affects the stats. Also, there are less groundballs hit in the AL than the NL due to style of play. There are way too many variables to ever accurately quantify how good a defender is. Baseball just has to put a number value to everything
UZR is by far the most important statistic when judging defense. Unless the UZR’s are similar the other stats you brought up are largely irrelevant. Also that talk about flyball strikeout pitchers and AL/NL style of play is just nonsense.
I am a huge fan of Cano. There is nothing wrong in admitting Utley is better esp. defensively. The gap in their UZRs is HUGE. There really is not much of a debate unless you are the ultimate homer.
Who is comparing Cano to Mays? And how could you? Mays was a GREAT player who is in the Hall of Fame.
The only thing they have in common is they played for NY teams.
no more nonsense than UZR is. If you feel that way thats your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I’m not looking at it as a Yankee fan. I’ve watched them both play a lot and in my opinion Cano gets to more balls and turns the double play better. I for one am tired of talking about it….
Last year the team had too many DH-types. Slow guys with good knees who played like guys with bad knees. Guy who played defense but in all honestly they shouldn’t have.
This coming year, Matsui is the only guy who’s looking to most like a DH-type. Jeter, A-Rod, Posada, Swisher are not there yet.
Gone are Giambi, Sexson and the horde of beer league 1B’s from ‘08. Also gone is Abreu, who can still play & hit, but his weakness in NY was defense.
Jeter just won the gold glove …. ’nuff said.
A-Rod? If his hip ain’t going to hold up this year, he won’t be able to hit & run either. So, he’s either a good 3B (highly likely) or a mega Pavano contract (not likely) but he’s not a DH.
Swisher’s a 4th OF, and he can give Tex a break. His bat is really streaky, which would be bad to have as an irreplaceable piece of the lineup (DH or otherwise) if he goes into a month long slump. Som,e might say even though he hits anywhere from .220 to .260 he still has a high OBP? Remember Giambi. I’d rather use him as a utility man and PH.
I don’t see a starting catcher coming up that’s ready to take Posada’s spot next year and probably the year after (well maybe a 2011 platoon with the big kid coming up) so he’s not DH. Jorge can still play D.
Damon … the only thing about him is that his wife and his mom can probably throw better than he does. He’ll probably command a higher price than Matsui.
I still think that Matsui might be able to fill in as LF here and there. Regardless, eve assuming he IS only used as DH, his bat behind Tex & A-Rod in the lineup works for me. Especially with Posada coming up after him rather than instead of him. Damon isn’t a middle of the order hitter. Matsui is. If Matsui’s the only DH type on the roster, that’s fine. We’re not going to see a repeat of the ‘08 offense if he is.
I’d lean towards Matsui a the only DH type. He has a few years left with the bat. If he can play the field occasionally, great. If not, great. Occasionally sit him or play him a little in LF if he shows he can at least hold his own (no pun intended) out there, and DH someone else those days. Get him at least 450-500 AB’s over the year though.
What’s needed is a two more athletic OFs, at least one of whom can hit at the top of the order instead of Damon. Both need to throw the ball to the infield from the warning track without needing three hops to do it.
Here’s one of the two: Gardner in LF. C’mon, I’d at least think about it. He hit for a lot higher average than anyone expected this season, but I don’t think he’s hit his ceiling yet either. Like to see how much he raises his game next year, maybe he could be a FAST top of the order guy if he can get on base a little more. If he becomes a leadoff guy and Jeter moves back to the two spot, Jeter’s patience at the plate could allow him to steal more bases, thus negating the Jeter DP problem we all discussed last year.
That’s IF Gardner can get on base a little more. Having Jeter, Tex, A-Rod, Matsui, Posada and Cano coming up after him should get Gardner some hittable pitches. Defensively I think Gardner’s up to it in CF or LF. He can cover more ground than almost anyone. And anyone can throw better than Damon. Maybe even my 9-month old daughter can. Sorry Johnny.
This off-season I’d bring Matsui back for a couple years (2 with option?) find ONE good hitting and athletic OF to replace Damon’s bat, I’d tinker with the bench and keep looking for more good starting pitchers. Remember CC has that opt-out after 2 more years and Pettitte won’t keep coming back for much longer. I’d also sign Molina for another year and think about a utility INF. That means from the starting lineup I’d lose only Damon. .
I envision an OF out of spring training consisting of Melky/Gardner/TBD by FA or trade and Swisher as 4th OF. If Melky or Gardner aren’t progressing, bring up AJax or use the weaker of the two to make a move mid year.
Garder LF
Jeter SS
Tex 1B
A-Rod 3B
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cano 2B
Swisher RF
Melky CF
Of course that’s only when 4th OF Swisher starts. Depending on whoever starts in RF you adjust the order accordingly. If he happens to be a leadoff or number 2 hitter, then you put Gardner back at the bottom of the order and he hits 1 or 2 spots before Jeter anyways.
I really don’t get how Swisher is a 4th OF – he’s streaky, so are a lot of players. 4th OF don’t hit 25 or so HRs and knock in 80 plus RBIs
Gardner can not hit, period…….he doesn’t have much of a ceiling. He’s at best a 4th OF, probably closer to a 5th. CC is not going to opt out……I’m not sure why everyone assumes he’s going to. He loves it here, loves his teammates and is building a dream home in NJ.
Option A : resign both Damon and Matsui to 1 year deals at somewhere around 15-20 million for both.
Option B : let Damon and Matsui walk and sign Holliday to a multi-year deal and pay about the same in payroll for the 2010 season as you would for Damon and Matsui.
Which is better? Option A offers less longterm commitment and you have players that you know can play in NY. However if you go that route then you have this same problem again next offseason and are again looking for a LF. Also there are no guarantees that Damon or Matsui will stay healthy or continue to perform at the same level.
Option B: locks down a corner outfield postion with a good player for a few years and allows the team to concentrate on other things (like pitching). The drawbacks are that its a longterm commitment and there are questions as to whether Holliday can perform in the AL. You could wait until next offseason and go after Crawford (although I think Holliday is a better player)
I personally would go with option B for a variety of reasons but I don’t know if thats the right answer or not. I like Damon and Matsui as well and wouldn’t mind seeing them back.
Betsy, Swisher’s not exactly a gold glove out there. Yes, when he’s got it going he can hit some dingers. I think it’s more the D than the streakiness though, which seems to be a little more than normal. (or the .250 average)
Coming out of Chicago he was more of a 1B than an OF although he could play both.
Gardner can throw better than Damon, but not that much better. Gardner has a weak throwing arm.
And with his great speed he should learn how to bunt.
Betsy – Compare Gardner’s average and Swisher’s average. Gardner was a lot closer to .280 than Swisher at end of the season. Defensively Garndner’s better. Swisher just has more pop when he’s not cold at the plate. I bet he’d even say he’s more of a 1B than an OF, but that he’s happy to play there whenever Girardi asks.
Gardner is the best bunter in MLB (or so says Tim McCarver)
“Gardner is the best bunter in MLB (or so says Tim McCarver)”
I hope you don’t believe anything McCarver says.
it was a joke, but if some bill james statistic said it some of you would.
Nick Swisher’s OPS+ was 129 last season
Gardner’s OPS+ was 93 (meaning he is a below average player)
But yeah in the year 2009 with so many advanced stats showing how good and bad players are .AVG is definitely most important….
…….banging head against desk
Swisher over Gardner as my starter in the of. Gardner offensively has speed. He hasn’t shown he can hit.
Swisher can hit and hit with power.
How much value does UZR have? Zero, when Adam Dunn has a better rating than Ken Griffey, Jr. Great stat, huh?
GreenBeret7
November 14th, 2009 at 12:23 am
How much value does UZR have? Zero, when Adam Dunn has a better rating than Ken Griffey, Jr. Great stat, huh?
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Again I have to ask WTH are you talking about?
Look it up and read it yourself
You provided nothing relevant to discount UZR. Adam Dunn definitely does not have a better rating than Griffey. And regardless they are both brutal in the field so comparing them is meaningless. You do not need any stat to tell you they both are worthless defensively.
So yeah… I am going to stick with my WTH are you talking about
You can’t tell me that in their careers that they are the same fielders…or worse…that Dunn was better. That’s what the numbers say. If Bill James wants to have suckers swallow everything he says. have at it. He and his sheep are idiots.
Yankees will offer market for both Damon and Matsui. Young legs and ageless players or not, Bobby Abreu is a cautionary tale to both players and their agents. Want a one year deal for $5 million? Wait a bit too long. ST is in 90 days.
Cash holds ALL the cards here. All the rest is smoke and mirrors.
Cano plays a decent second base. So foes Chase Utley. They both can hit, Cano with a bit more average, Utley with perhaps a bit more power in a weaker league. OK, so what’s the issue?
Except that is not at all what the numbers say…
Since they started tracking UZR in 2002 Griffey has been brutal in the OF. Dunn has been even more brutal. Your comments make no sense. When Griffey was a great baseball player on the Mariners and not an old washed up injured every year bum his UZR would have reflected that.
UZR is the best defensive statistic out there for every position except C and 1B. You have said absolutely nothing to debunk that.
OPS+ isn’t the end all be all stat in baseball. Although I agree, Swisher is a better player than Gardner, there are several stats we can look at to determine which one is superior. Don’t forget, Gardner is a very very good defender while Swisher is just a bit above average.
He and his sheep are idiots.
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Yeah only idiots would use sabermetrics. You are much more qualified to judge players than every executive in baseball who uses them. You should send your resume to Cashman and let him know he is an idiot and you have a better way to judge players.
Patrick
November 14th, 2009 at 1:12 am
OPS+ isn’t the end all be all stat in baseball. Although I agree, Swisher is a better player than Gardner, there are several stats we can look at to determine which one is superior. Don’t forget, Gardner is a very very good defender while Swisher is just a bit above average.
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I would be interested to see what offensive statistic you could find where Gardner is even close to Swish
Let’s go yankees,
Gardner is nowhere near swisher. In simply saying that ops+ isn’t the only stat we should look at. Gardner excels at defense which greatly increases his value. I’m not saying he’s equal to swisher, just that it’s unfair to ignore Gardner defense.
In who’s world besides that of the Bill James Sheep People was Daniel Murphey of the Mets a better first baseman than Mark Teixeira in 2009?
In nobody’s world was Daniel Murphy a better 1B than Teixeira. Did someone say he was?
UZR is not a good statistic for 1B or C. That has been stated many times in this thread. Ya know what I am just going to go back to the standby of WTH are you talking about because again you are making no sense and not respond anymore
UZR doesn’t even apply to C. It’s not great for 1B but it’s still widely used.
I do agree though, UZR for 1B is kind of silly. Adrian Gonazalez had the highest UZR for 1B in the NL but Albert Pujols was the better defender. UZR is definitely flawed but it’s the best fielding stat that we have that is readily available.
Patrick
November 14th, 2009 at 1:33 am
In nobody’s world was Daniel Murphy a better 1B than Teixeira. Did someone say he was?
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Bill James’ magic exlixor.
GreenBeret7 November 14th, 2009 at 12:23 am
How much value does UZR have? Zero, when Adam Dunn has a better rating than Ken Griffey, Jr. Great stat, huh?
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Hey GB ~
I was just reading a recent discussion on UZR over at my “usual hangout” – you might find it interesting.
UZR at your own peril…
http://www.marinercentral.com/.....topic=3500
gb go to bed
is there anything in this world that you are wrong about
I guess LoHud blew off covering the Torre charity dinner that featured a bunch of the players. Sad.
Not much original content on here any more.
Speaking of Torre’s charity dinner here is a nice article with some direct quotes from Torre regarding some of his former players winning a WS. Nice picture with Cano and Melky.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....real_.html
CompassRosy
November 14th, 2009 at 1:57 am
GreenBeret7 November 14th, 2009 at 12:23 am
How much value does UZR have? Zero, when Adam Dunn has a better rating than Ken Griffey, Jr. Great stat, huh?
=========
Hey GB ~
I was just reading a recent discussion on UZR over at my “usual hangout” – you might find it interesting.
UZR at your own peril…
http://www.marinercentral.com/…..topic=3500
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Thanks, Rosy. It seems that it’s not just me that thinks that’s a screwed up “stat”. They’re leaving it up to people that don’t play the game (except in fantasy baseball) to determine whether a ball should or shouldn’t be caught….people that may or may not care….people with biases towards teams or players.
Important things such as weather conditions, field conditions, pitching mistakes….such as missing his spot or crossing up his defense….opponents base running that pull hitters out of position on a hit and run or steals are disregarded and blamed on the fielder. There are too many factors to determine who should do what.
Maybe they should chalk in every position players “zone” on the field. One other thing that doesn’t get taken into account is player positioning because of lateral movement of team mates, or, lack of same.
Let Godzilla go!
ThX for all your HELP
Seems like both Tellem and Boras are grasping at a few straws. One’s client has superior genetics that make him younger than his years, and the other’s is simply “ageless.” Sigh.
Gotta laugh a little, don’t you?
I guess they wouldn’t be doing their jobs otherwise…hopefully both are willing to be reasonable.
I think the Yankees are going to make take it-or leave it type offers to both. They don’t have time to mess around because they have to move on if either/neither player accepts…….
In some ways, I think that Matsui is the most important to bring back of the “big 3″.
If Pettitte is not re-signed, the Yanks will bring in a good pitcher through trade of FA. Whether it is Lackey, Halladay, or somebody else, you could argue that would make the Yankees even better. At least until the post-season.
If Damon doesn’t come back, they may sign Holliday, maybe trade for Granderson, or another player who can make the Yankees better.
But, if Matsui walks, I am pretty sure they won’t try to be a rotating DH, or something like that. They will bring in a veteran bat to DH. Does anybody want to see Thome, Giambi, or Vlad flailing at balls in the dirt or over his head? I can’t think of an available player that I would rather have at DH for the Yanks next year than Matsui. Also, for the way he fits with this team and the city, he probably has more value to the Yankees than any other team he may go to. And certainly more value than another vet coming here to end his career. Plus, none of the others are ageless.
In my heart I would like to see all 3 return, but as Betsy says, the Yankees can’t wait forever. You make a good point about Matsui Mark, I agree, I don’t like the idea of a rotating DH.
I want Matsui’s bat as the DH next year!… He’s too clutch not to have on this team.
I think Andy is vital, but of the other two, I admit if forced to choose, I would bring back Matsui. Either way, though, it wouldn’t be for more than a year, maybe two. What are we going to do about the DH spot in the future?
matsui is probably he best hitter available as a free agent. Not the best player but the best hitter when you talk about overall production and being able to hit good pitching in the clutch. The question is how much does he have left and do you want to sign a player who is just a dh on a team that’s a little long in the tooth.
“What are we going to do about the DH spot in the future?”
I don’t think that is too much of a concern. I think bring back Matsui because he is proven, has something left, and has been a vital part of this team. But, 2011 or 2012, there will be somebody available. DH is traditionally fairly easy to fill. Look at all the DHs available right now. Even though I think Matsui is the best option, if he didn’t exist, you could put a reasonable hitter in that spot.
As for Posada, after his current contract is up, probably not. To me, he is a great bat at the catching position, because he gives the Yanks a major competitive advantage in that spot over just about anybody. But, as a DH, he would be just about average now, probably below average in 2 years.
I don’t think the Yankees wait forever either. I also think NY has offers out to Andy, Matsui and Johnny with some kind of incentive for early acceptance or penalty for delayed acceptance.
If it was my money, and I sure wish it was, I’d offer the following:
1. Matusi 1 year at $11m
2. Damon 1 year at $11m, team option 2nd year at 9m
3. Andy 1 year at $12m
Damon’s stock has probably fallen in the eyes of many posters because of his health and because of Boras’s so called demands- 4 years.
Yet Damon still has value to the Yankees though, but on a 1+1 contract, he is an ideal 2nd place hitter, with the ability to bat leadoff, is a decent hitter against LHP and his swing is perfect for YS.
One of the better moves Joe G made this year was swap Jeter and Damon in the lineup. He could do this more easily with Damon. There really is nobody on the Yankees now that can bat #2 as efficiently as Damon.
yankee 21
you are entirely too reasonable
I like your plan.
Hideki Matsui : A professional hitter / great teammate / A good Yankee.
With his bad knees, interleague play did him good plus the way Girardi spot rested him. Even slowed down, he’s still a smart baserunner.
yankee21,
I am thinking the Yankees would be looking at Matsui for less than 10M. I wouldn’t be surprised if they offer Pettitte guaranteed money for @ what he made this year after the incentives kicked in.
I think they would be willing to give Damon 13M for a one year deal with a team option 2nd year. But no way would they want to commit that kind of yearly money for a 3 yr deal or more.
If Damon/Boras insist on a 3 or 4 year deal, Damon will not be a Yankee. I don’t think they will get more than 2 years from anybody. But, by the time they drop their demands, the Yankees will have moved on. Blame the Damon loss on Boras over-inflation. Think about it, only the Yankees were willing to give Damon 4 years, back in ‘05. Now, with him being 4 yrs older, and nobody spending money in this economy, somebody else is going to give him 4? Wake up Johnny! It’s a management market right now, not a player’s market.
my heart would like to see Damon and hideki back but my head says that signing holliday and trying to trade for granderson to hit in the 2 hole makes the team significantly younger and better on defense. (although I haven’t looked at the UZRs so I can’t be sure on that claim (said sarcastically)
If it was my money, and I sure wish it was, I’d offer the following:
1. Matusi 1 year at $11m
2. Damon 1 year at $11m, team option 2nd year at 9m
3. Andy 1 year at $12m
………………………………………….
Yankee 21 ;
Yes, yes, and yes.
While on the same word, Damon should “yes” Scott Boras to death then go ahead with what his heart tells him.
I think Andy’s decision is key. If he doesn’t come back, the Yankees need another starting pitcher.
Andy has been so over looked and taken for granted. Both CC and AJ said he helped them adjust to pitching in NY and pitching in the post season. Hopefully he makes his decision soon.
Don’t forget that Hideki is Jeter’s favorite player. That has to count for something.
Scott Boras is intentionally out of touch with reality of what today’s economics are.
He’ll overvalue Matt Holliday and his other clients then come back to earth.
Andy will be back. I’m pretty confident in that
Given how last year played out, even though his deal amounted to essentially the same as what he was offered in the beginning, I think Andy will not want to go through all that again. If he wants to return I don’t see him taking long to decide.
Good morning, all.
Matsui is definitely a one-dimensional player, but that one is that of a very good hitter. Probably the best pure DH today.
If you look at historical precedent for winning teams with a one-dimensional DH, you can look at the Red Sox. Feel as we might about the Red Sox and David Ortiz, +/- his juicing, but it’s an analagous situation, I think, and they did win in 2007 and maybe some other year, I think, with that situation on their roster.
The more I think about it, Matsui for one year can make sense. And unless the Yanks can come up with a better option (Curtis Granderson?), Damon for one more for the OF.
Any negotiations start with both sides giving extremes with the knowledge that they will meet somewhere in between.
Boras knows the market pretty well, even though he throws out figures that are absurdly high, when they come down they appear to be a bargain compared to what he said it should be. It allows the buyer to think they got a good deal, while it usually ends up being right around the range that he really expected to get for his players.
Its all a game. Boras doesn’t care what people think of him or his original demands, its all about what happens as an end result.
In Damon’s case I can see him bumping up the duration to 4 years as the starting point. When he gets a two year deal it will be said Boras failed, meanwhile most people are saying it should be year to year. Damon getting two years for decent money would be a win for him.
Good morning Joe
Agreed on your points. I like Granderson and I think he’d excel in NY, but I like him as a replacement in CF for Melky vs. a replacement for Johnny in LF. Damon offers NY value that Granderson does not and vice versa.
Ultimately with Granderson it comes down to the price tag. What would NY have to give up to get this guy. If that price includes AJAX and perhaps ACEVES that is a deal that hurts a little but one I have to make. That gives me 3 CF, so I look to package Melky or may I dare say Swisher, yes Swisher, as part of a larger move for a blockbuster trade.
I’d like to bring Johnny back but he is 3rd priority behind Andy, Matsui.
Chapman is the main non-yankee they need to secure.
Aba- I’ve had a fair amount of negotiations experience, in my opinion when one party starts off with an extreme position, for example 4 years for an aging mid 30s OF, they lose credibility and I turn a mental switch in my mind, and I say simply this is a non-starter, come back with an offer when you are serious. If they don’t come back, provided I am not desparate, and the Yankees certainly aren’t, then I move on.
And that would be on DAMON, not Boras. He is the client.
In short I disagree with your premise.
I don’t think anyone is giving Damon or Matsui $ 10 Million plus a year. The market is loaded with serviceable DH types and it is definitely a buyer’s market. Matsui cannot play the OF at all and Damon shouldn’t be out there more than once or twice a week.
Pettite might get $ 10-12 M, but I wouldn’t offer the other two more than $ 8 M with a vesting option for another $ 8 M for 2010.
If you do that the # 4 and # 5 OF have to be better and more versatile than Gardner and Hinske. If you could get Randy Winn to replace one of them then you can carry the other.
Yankee21, then you haven’t been in many negotiations. I have and different people have different tactics. Boras always works this way. YOU may turn off that mental switch, but this isn’t the first time, nor the last time that the Yankees would be dealing with Boras.
Boras’ job is to inflate the value of his player. It allows him to move down gradually and many times nets him more than most of the other agents in the game.
Damon might end up getting a two year plus an option year. Damon had a very good year. He was a large part of getting to the post season for two different teams, and a decent part of them winning the WS.
If you turn off a party that starts at the extreme, I can guarantee you that you have missed out on the right deals more often than not. Being in business for over 40 years I have learned that lesson. I’ve seen many who react as you end up on the losing side.
86,
It is a buyer’s market but I believe Matsui comes in at 10+ for 2010, on a 1 year deal, with NY,, a lower AAV on a multi year deal somewhere else. Yes, he can no longer play the OF except in an emergency and he runs like my mother, but he still has a quick bat, can handle and thrive in the NY pressure cooker and can damage LHP.
These guys do not grow on trees. Which is why I belive Matsui earns 10+.
Let’s see how this plays out.
I’m not saying this is what they should do because I don’t know all of the particulars on what it would cost, but if they could get Granderson at a discount (prospects wise) then they could let both Damon and Matsui walk and use that money to sign Holliday. This would give them Holliday in LF and Granderson in CF and Swisher and Melky could compete for the RF job or platoon. This would make the outfield significantly younger and better defensively. Also going this route would prevent this same debate next offseason and allow them to concentrate on pitching.
Aba,, not wise to presume my experience especially when you don’t know me from Adam. Ok?
Let me state this a different way regarding extreme positions. Granted, I am going to expect an initial offer that is much more advantageous to them than to I to start out, whether you view that as extreme or I view at as positioning, may in the end be a matter of semantics.
When I talk extreme I am talking about lacking reality. In this market an opening volley for Johnny D at 4 years is lacking reality, in short extreme, and really is a waste of time for me to negotiate with that party off that point. Now, if time is not a critical factor, in short if this is the only negotiation you have to do all winter, then maybe you play games and negotiate from that opening volley, but I sure as hell wouldn’t, I have other negotations to do and you can certaintly agree the Yankees do to.
Sorry a 4 year opening is a non-starter and I tell Boras once he gets real I am interested in talking, but the clock is running and I don’t have all winter for him to get real. Real to me, would actually be 1 year less, an opening volley of 3 years from Boras. I then would negotiate a guarenteed 1 year contract with some type of option of a 2nd year (favorable to the Yankees).
Yankee 21 —-
I just don’t see the competition for Matsui, which is why I see his $$$ being much less than the $ 13 M he got this pasr season. Damon is pretty much in the same boat.
Both guys faded when they didn’t get enough rest so I cannot see the widsom in bringing both back. At this point each should primarily serve as a DH.
Count meout of the Holliday camp. Helluva hitter, lousy OF. I really like Granderson and I could live with the price tag being Austin Jackson and Aceves but would prefer to keep Austin and offer a better arm (McAllister and Gardner?) instead.
However if A. Jackson, Aceves and Kennedy/McAllister gets Granderson and Edwin Jackson I gotta do it.
One other thing about Boras. He is very, very good at what he does. However, Cashman has a little experience too, he didn’t just get off the bus so to speak.
I think he is well aware of Boras’ tactics and I also think he is probably amused by them.
Let’s flash back 4 years ago. Remember when Boras took Johnny around as a FA asking for 7 years for his client. Everyone knew that was a joke, everyone new that was unreal.
In fact, the Yankees publicly stated they were prepared to go into the 2006 season with Crosby as their CF,, it wasn’t until after the new year, when Boras got real, they had a meeting of the minds and Johnny was a Yankee for 4 years.
The Yankees on the surface ignored Boras until he got real. It was only after Boras bucked up they struck a deal. Cashman did not wittle 7 years down to 4, he didn’t play games. He simply was resigned to other options until Boras determined he might not have a home for his client if he stuck to his ridiculous and extreme demand.
I suspect this will happen again.
I disagree that Holliday is a lousy outfielder. He’s no gold glover but he’s at worst average and IMO an upgrade over Damon. Damon may have a little more range but his arm is one of the worst in the history of baseball.
86, I agree on the trade package for Granderson/Jackson. I’d be a little surprised if that was sufficient for DET though.
Lets see how this plays out for Matsui. My best is a deal at or above 10 mil, 1 year.
86… correction to above… ” my bet,, not my best…
“Matsui cannot play the OF at all and Damon shouldn’t be out there more than once or twice a week.”
If this is the case, then you cannot sign both. If Damon plays the outfield 1/2 days per week, the dh spot has to be kept open for him. Matsui will not be signed to dh occasionally and sit on the bench the rest of the time.
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Abreau signed for 18 million for 2 years. Damon probably is looking at a similar contract.
blake —
You can be an upgrade over Damon defensively and still be lousy! Ok, let’s call him so-so. I just think the $$$ and years are too much for what he brings.
Plus, I love the Yanks RH/LH/SH balance and if Matsui and Damon are not back a power LH bat needs to be added first.
Rose —
Exactly. That’s why I wrote I cannot see the wisdom in bringing back both. I’m torn about which one I prefer and am glad I don’t have to make that decision — though I lean towards Damon because his superior variety of skills.
“Abreau signed for 18 million for 2 years. Damon probably is looking at a similar contract.”
If he lowers his demands, the Yankees would probably be willing to do that. I just don’t think Boras will come off of 3 or 4 years until after Jan 1. If that is the case, we will have a new LF by then. Also, I don’t think Damon will do better than 2yrs/16M if the Yanks are out of the bidding. I think that the time frame of the Yankees vs. the time frame of Boras vs. the time frame of needing to move in the trade/FA market, means Damon will be elsewhere next year.
86w183,
What do you think the final $$$ and years will be for Holliday? If it is 7/180, I agree with you. But, if his #s go to 6 yrs or less, for an avg of 14-16M per year, I think that has to be a consideration.
If Boston were to sign Bay fairly early, I think his #s could get to that. However, if Bay signs elsewhere, and Boston is desperate for Holliday, his #s will skyrocket.
Mark —
If Holliday can be had in the $ 15 M a year range I’d be more open to that discussion. When I hear Boras talking Teixiera money, though I lose interest quickly.
Only problem is Holliday, even at $ 15 would cost close to as much (in my opinion) as Damon and Matsui combined leaving minimal $$$ to plug the hold at DH.
And as I mentioned above, he throws off the Yanks LH/RH/SH balance.
Upon further review I remain opposed toadding Holliday even though he’s a heckuva hitter and his RCF power would be devastating in the new building.
But, Holliday at 15M, plus Matsui at 8M, is 3M less than Damon/Matsui combined this past year. I agree with you, though, at first glance I wanted nothing to do with Holliday. Replacing a LH batter with RH is part of that as well. He is, however, the best LF option out there, when you start going through the alternatives. There is nothing really exciting that is available.
I do see his demands coming way down, particularly if Bay goes back to Boston. It is amazing how contract demands drop when Boston is out, and the Yankees are disinterested.
“How much value does UZR have? Zero, when Adam Dunn has a better rating than Ken Griffey, Jr. Great stat, huh?”
Yes. I never would have known that w/o UZR.
This is not the Griffey of old, guys. This is the Griffey of now.
UZR has issues. However, it’s not rocket science. You don’t need to play the game to clculate the stat. If a ball is hit in the hole, and player b makes the play but player a does not, they write that down and put it into numbers. That’s it.
I found it interesting, and a little disappointing, that Cashman mentioned backup catcher as one of his areas of concern. With how well Cervelli played, how well Posada’s injured shoulder held up and progressed, and how bad of a year Molina had, I would think he would be OK with Cervelli as the backup.
I know he isn’t going to come out and lay out his plans in the press, but why even mention it? If they want to save payroll, Cervelli is an internal option that saves them 3-5M without doing anything. And, with very little to no difference in on-field performance, IMO.
*calculate*
86, we dont know the market for holliday yet. it may be less than expected. Holliday is a career .322 hitter in interleague play which was mostly against the AL ( in 86 games). Has hit .320 against the red sox.
If you are going to count his stint in Oakland as a negative then you have to count his interleague record as a positive. They guy can play and if it wasn’t for a half a season in Oakland he’d probably still be considered the best LF in baseball
blake —
I did not say a single thing about his time in Oakland, did I? I think he’s a terrific hitter, mediocre OF and probably more expensive than he’s worth to the Yankees.
That said, it’s not my money and a middle of the lineup of Teixiera, Alex and Holliday would be pretty awesome.
If they do that, they can use Austin Jackson as a trade chip for a No. 4 starter instead of Granderson. But if it was me and my money I’d do the Granderson trade and not add another $ 100 Million contract.
I agree with Mark if Bay signs early with Boston then that really changes the market as far as Holliday goes. Boras can no longer pit Boston against the Yankees and his price may come way down. Its been reported that Holliday wants play for the Yankees also.
“Statistics” on defense are a bit like bull’s teats — yes, they exist; and you can look at them, and even massage them a bit if it makes you feel good. But at the end of the day they are completely useless for telling you if the bull is capable of performing his job.
I was just trying to make a point. I was initially against Holliday as well but the more I’ve thought about it the more it makes sense.
“Its been reported that Holliday wants play for the Yankees also.”
That is what he said, but what he meant was: “I really want to involve the team with the biggest payroll and willingness to spend in my negotiations.”
Dang and I thought he was being sincere
““Statistics” on defense are a bit like bull’s teats — yes, they exist; and you can look at them, and even massage them a bit if it makes you feel good. But at the end of the day they are completely useless for telling you if the bull is capable of performing his job.”
What can I say? Uh, no, that’s not true?
The Yankees would make a huge mistake in not resigning Matsui, perhaps for 2 years. He is an accompished hitter, can hit in clutch situations and under the pressure that comes with playing in New York.
Johnny Damon is the one player sho should NOT be brought back. Look at the outfield situation and its easy to determine that the Yanks must get more athletic and improve defensively. Melky is good, but he’s not a fleet CFer and he doesn’t hit well enough yet as a corner OFer. Swisher is a poor defensive OFer. Damon? He was the worst defensive left fielder in the A.L.! Everyone takes liberties on his chicken arm. He appears lost in Left, his first step to the ball is poor and his depth perception is worse. Many balls went for extra base hits that would have been caught by average LFers.
He still can run and has decent offensive numbers. But he’s definitely not a No. 2 hitter and did a poor job in advancing baserunners and can’t bunt. He did reach the short right field porch, but so did every other pull hitter.
Luis Polonia would probably hit 40 dingers there!
The Yanks need a LFer who can contribute both offensively and defensively. Damon cannot do both. They also need a left DH. Who would you rather have in that role? Matsui is a “no brainer”! Sign a guy like Figgins for LF, lead him off, move Jeter back to his natural No. 2 and get ready for another World Series!
Figgins is 32 in January and has started a grand total of 24 games in LF. And he’s the answer?
I’m on record in favor of trading for Granderson, moving Melky to RF and Swisher to LF and re-signing either Damon or Matsui but not both.
Granderson is three years younger than Figgins and a better defensive OF with power. Speed is less valuable in a power friendly stadium and power laden lineup and it’s not like Grandrson is a slouch there.
86w183:
Figgins is definitely a better fit in LF than the current player. How many games did Damon log before he took over as the everyday LF? Not many. Playing the corner OF positions for a good outfielder is a minor adjustment. Figgins is a better all around player than Granderson and we certainly don’t need his (Granderson) 141 Ks at the leadoff position! (The k total is actually down from his 174 in 2006.)
Figgins has a higher OBP, makes better contact, is a better base stealer, and can play infield positions also. He would be a solid replacement for ARod and Cano when they are periodically rested.
Granderson is a potential answer for CF but notAnyway a good outfielder can adjust to playing \.
Also Figgins will only cost $ and Draft Picks. Granderson will cost A-type prospects.
Yankees do not need pitching, especially unproven pitchers like Chapman, or a veteran like Lackey. Hughes Joba complete the rotation, and D-Rob is the 8th inning set up man.
But Matsui and Damon aren’t durable and won’t be able to play next season, so we need someone to back up A-Rod. So Holliday is a good buy. Granderson just sucks Im sorry. And what the hell kind of name is Granderson anyways? I thought you guys were talking about Garret Anderson, then I looked it up and saw that I was wrong.
So sign Holliday, cut Swisher or option him to the concession stands, keep Melky, and then start Brett Gardner in centerfield. Or if he’s not ready then we can just option him to the gardening crew.