Granderson attracting plenty of interest
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The Yankees aren’t having their internal meetings until next week, but that doesn’t – and shouldn’t – stop the speculation about who and what they’re going to be going after once the Hot Stove gets cooking. For now, Curtis Granderson is the popular name being floated around the trade market and – not surprisingly – there are plenty of teams (including, perhaps, the Cubs and Angels) interested in him.
Should the Yankees be one of them? Obviously it depends on what kind of value would have to go to Detroit in return, but there are also two questions that you have to answer before you get to whether you want Granderson or not:
1. Do you want Johnny Damon back playing left field?
2. Do you believe Melky Cabrera and/or Brett Gardner is an everyday center fielder?
If you want Damon back and if you like Cabrera (or Gardner) in center, then there isn’t much room for Granderson this winter, especially if Austin Jackson is waiting in the wings. There could be a hybrid situation, I suppose, where Granderson is a platoon-type player since his splits against lefties are atrocious. But if that’s true, then how much could the Yankees reasonably give up in a trade for a guy who wouldn’t play all the time?
I’ve always liked Granderson as a player and neither one of the two questions I posed above would keep me from acquiring him (I’m not married to Damon in left and I’m not convinced about either guy in center), so the question would hinge on what was being sent out.
If Jackson was in the deal, I’d at least listen though I’d probably want more back than just an outfielder. If we were talking young pitchers, though, like Hughes or Chamberlain? Not interested. Pitching is what wins and outfielders just aren’t as important.
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on Saturday, November 14th, 2009 at 2:59 pm by Sam Borden.
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Chad Jennings
If Jackson was in the deal, I’d at least listen though I’d probably want more back than just an outfielder. If we were talking young pitchers, though, like Hughes or Chamberlain? Not interested. Pitching is what wins and outfielders just aren’t as important.
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Couldn’t agree more.
while curtis will hit better outside of det stadium, he still overated and can’thit lefties. sign cameron. i pass
Granderson and Melkey had nearly the same OPS/OPS+ last year (despite Granderson hitting 30hr’s). His L/R splits are horrific (i believe it was .270 to .188). So you’d basically be running up an AA player every time he faced a lefty. Im cool passing on him.
From the end of the last post:
If any of you read the Verducci/Torre book, a lot of the player information was written by Tom Verducci with much information gotten from David Cone.
The last few chapters mostly Torre’s words about Cashman essentially not backing him up at the meeting to decide to offer Torre two more years, and the image he portrayed of the Boss in declining health, were two areas that bothered me.
I believe that AJAX at his best could be Granderson. If that and a few lower level pitching prospects gets it done- so be it. Detroit’s money strapped with plenty of bad contracts. This could be a dump job. They need some flexibility and we could catch them at an opportune time!
Sam, I pretty much agree. I don’t see why we couldn’t have Damon back even if we got Granderson, but then if that would preclude signing Matsui………..I’d probably choose Matsui. If not, then I would love to have Johnny back. If we had to, we could get by with Melky/Gardner (but mostly Melky as I am not a fan of Gardner; IMO, he’s at best a 4th OF – he just can’t hit).
The problem is that the Tigers are not going to wait while the Yankees have their meetings. If they intend to deal CG, they already have plenty of teams interested – there is no reason for them to delay any potential trade. The Yankees need to get cracking if they are going to get involved for Granderson.
I hate to give up Jackson……but I probably would. Phil or Joba? No way…….Every team demands Phil or Joba (or Montero), so frankly, I’m not sure the Tigers would be any different (and in which case the Yankees would just hang up the phone).
Erin, I just posted this in the prior thread, but I wanted to be sure you saw it…….I apologize if I made you feel badly last night; that was not my intention at all.
Damon IMO will be gone to a team offering him a 3 year contract.
Detroit is apparently hurting financially and has a lot of contracts in no particular order it would like to unload:
Dontrell Willis
Nate Robertson
Magglio Ordonez
Jeremy Bonderman
Brandon Inge
Carlos Guillen
Gerald Laird
Now if you want Granderson, who actually had decent average against lefties in 2008, without giving up Roberton or AJAX, think which of the above players contracts you might have to take on to outbid the Cubs and other teams hot after Granderson.
And yes I would like to see Granderson patrolling CF. Saw MLB clutch fielding highlights the other night, showing Granderson leaping high and snagging a sure homer, reaching over the fence. Can anyone remember one of our OF’ers doing that this year??
I think they’re sending a BIG signal to Damon: we want you back, but if you insist on a 4 year deal, we’ll look to the 29 year old Granderson.
Interesting for sure. But think about chemistry too….when you break this team up, I hope Cash is thinking about the relationships and what makes the team tick from a friendship and chemistry perspective.
Trisha
He was being offered a contract to be the highest paid manager in the game. How dare we offer him 5 mil a year! He took offense with the incentives. How dare we offer him incentives!
NYY626
I am sure Torre was happy for individuals such as Mo, Jeter, and a few others. But he was probably not happy for George, the Yankees organization, Alex, Damon, and some others.
It is amazing that Granderson hit 30 homers and 71 RBIs as a leadoff batter in un-hitter-friendly Comerica Park.
He could hit 40 HRs in the Bronx, batting ahead of Tex.
Damon is capable of breaking down as we saw in the last game of the World Series. I don’t see him getting a 3 year deal. He might get a 2 year with a club option, but not a straight up 3 year deal. He most certainly isn’t getting a 4 year deal; that’s just Boras smoking crack.
I think they’re sending a BIG signal to Damon: we want you back, but if you insist on a 4 year deal, we’ll look to the 29 year old Granderson.
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Damon won’t even get a 3 year offer from the Yankees, unless, possibly they offer him a team held option on a 3rd year.
“I am sure Torre was happy for individuals such as Mo, Jeter, and a few others. But he was probably not happy for George, the Yankees organization, Alex, Damon, and some others.”
Exactly. And he’s a phony to say that he was.
Cameron? Whiffs as much as Granderson and is 8 years older. 37 in January. Why would you want him? I’ll pass on Cameron.
Go get Granderson to play CF, trade for either DeJesus to play LF[13 assists no errors] or sign Marlon Byrd to play left field[20 homers], move Cabrera to right and DH Swisher.
Cheaper,Younger, Swifter, More athletic and our outfield defense goes from one of the worst to one of the best in the AL. Apply the savings to get another starter and /or another 8th inning reliever!!
Call it a day.
Welcome any thoughts!!!
“Gammons has spotted a new future HOF player in the Red Soxs farm system
_________
http://sports.espn.go.com/bost…..id=4654348”
—————
This is how the Sox are able to get Schilling for Fossum, Dela Rosa, Goss, Lyon.
Because their farm system is broadcasted all over by ESPN. Not even name guys, but no namers like Iglesias, Ryan Westmoreland, Casey Kelly, Lars Anderson. In this article, he talks all about Red Sox farm catchers.
He says Tim Federowicz will be an everyday MLB catcher. I will stake my life on the fact that Tim Federowicz will never be an everyday catcher in the ML. This article shows the true sickness of ESPN.
Where are the articles about our catchers in the system.
By the way, come 2011, Jed Lowrie could be a 50 XBH guy.
And Casey kelly, and Ryan Westmoreland front everybody’s top 10 prospect list.
FYI – Cano and Melky were at the event, not just the dynasty bunch.
CR9 – Torre was close with George, so I’m not so sure that’s true about Joe being unhappy for him, especially since the man is not in good health. This is my last comment on Torre and the book as I’m running out the door – The book was a great read, and most of the stuff was positive and interesting. The media clearly picked out the few parts where something negative was said and focused on those. Truthfully, Alex did act like a prima donna; this is not groundbreaking information to the public! He has changed a lot this year, and I’m happy for him and it obviously did wonders for the team – 2009 WORLD CHAMPS ANYONE?
Catch y’all later.
I don’t care much to get Granderson. I’m more interested in signing Damon for two years and then finding a new DH. We don’t need Granderson and getting him might cost too much. I’m not willing to give up Jackson for him and I’m especially not willing to give up Hughes or Chamberlain.
Melky, IPK, and a high pitching prospect are OK with me for Granderson. Jackson – absolutely not. I’d rather see him grow into a player on the Yankees than see him do it on the Tigers as we have an aging Granderson down the road.
CR9 -
Gammons = Tokyo Rose
We should kick the tires on Granderson, but to me, he’s worth our second and third tier prospects. We should only give up top talent for pitching. I’m talking Halladay level.
Right now Austin Jackson is alot of hype. He has no power, and that could take years to develop any. I want to see him come up and prove himself.
CR
I cant even bother reading Gammons’s drivel anymore. He is the older version of Bill Simmons if Simmons had actually held a job as a sports writer. Really, if you look at it, Gammons is even worse than Simmons since Gammons actually is paid to cover all 30 teams while Simmons is paid to opine about Boston teams and how great their fans are.
Here is a VERY suspicious photo of Gammons talking up the Red Sox farm system.
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/3398/gammons.jpg
Yankee Trader
November 14th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
From the end of the last post:
“If any of you read the Verducci/Torre book, a lot of the player information was written by Tom Verducci with much information gotten from David Cone. ”
Agreed.But on page 206 of Joe Torre’s book is this passage:
“”David”,Torre told Wells, “your name is on the book”.”
Joe Torre should have listened to his own advise.
I think the deal could work better if the yankees agree to take on a bit of salary. Two guys i wouldnt mind having are carlos guillen and nate robertson. Guillen can still hit and play all over the place- they could use him sort of like they used hairston this year (provided he can stay healthy) and a lefty with decent stuff never hurt nybody. Robertson could be used as a starter, long reliever, or lefty setup. He becomes extra appealing if the yankees cant bring back gaudin. I think agreeing to take one of those contracts would mean the yankees have to give up less in the deal
The last few chapters mostly Torre’s words about Cashman essentially not backing him up at the meeting to decide to offer Torre two more years, and the image he portrayed of the Boss in declining health, were two areas that bothered me.
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even being in Florida at the time, was able to perceive this was the situation. And despite being a Torre fan (in the past) i have no problem with Cashman’s actions. When a manager cannot manage a bullpen he is of zero use. The ‘Joba Rules’ (issued from the top down) was the final clue ownership/cashman had had enough
“Cameron? Whiffs as much as Granderson and is 8 years older. 37 in January. Why would you want him? I’ll pass on Cameron.”
He would only cost cash, instead of prospects AND cash.
Cameron for 1 or 2 years + Austin Jackson, Z-Mac, and any other prospoects are more valuable than Curtis Granderson – (minus) the propsects.
Speaking of Gammons I love this headline about the Red Sox:
“Now that their catching situation has been resolved, the Red Sox can shift their focus to more pressing concerns such as left field and shortstop”
Really? Their catching situation has been resolved? Their starting catcher has caught a TOTAL of 140 games in the past 2 seasons and is much more of a 1B/DH than a catcher. And their backup catcher is absolutely worthless. Their 2nd best pitcher strongly prefers throwing to their worthless backup and they have a knuckleball pitcher who neither Martinez or Varitek can catch. Seems resolved to me………….
Cameron is still a very good player and a very good CF. Why do so many people on here think that if you strike out a lot you automatically are terrible. A SO is just another out.
Sam Borden would make a better GM than Omar Minaya
i don’t understand how Mike Cameron is a noticible upgrade over a Melky/Gardner combination.
don’t see it
Cameron is still a very good player and a very good CF. Why do so many people on here think that if you strike out a lot you automatically are terrible. A SO is just another out
————————————
keep reading Bill James.
strike outs are rally killers. Why do you think the Yankees were never out of any games this past year, and why they came from behind time and time again? First in the league in walks. Last in the league in strikeouts.
common sense alone, should let you know strikeouts are unproductive outs. As opposed to outs which move runners over
Laura – Bring back Matsui in 2010!
November 14th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Damon is capable of breaking down as we saw in the last game of the World Series. I don’t see him getting a 3 year deal. He might get a 2 year with a club option, but not a straight up 3 year deal. He most certainly isn’t getting a 4 year deal; that’s just Boras smoking crack.
**********
A leg cramp on a 45 degree night is not exactly “breaking down”
A strikeout is the worst possible out you can make. Even hitting into a DP can score a run under the right circumstances. SO being just another out sounds great in concept, but in practice it is lacking as it fails to put pressure on the defense as well as potentially advancing/scoring runners.
I’ve been thinking a lot about Granderson…
If he does get dealt (not a given), it won’t be to the Yanks.
Cashman has TOO MUCH leverage. Gardbrera played well this year (both showed improvement). Damon is a perfect fit for the Yanks (no team will give him 3 years). The Yanks just won the WS with league average (slightly below) centerfielders.
Cashman will evaluate Granderson for what he is – a good glove, good guy, who will struggle mightly against about 25-30% of all the pitchers he sees (lefties). His glove is too good, and his salary is too high for him to be a platoon player.
The most likely scenarios for next year are:
1) Damon in LF, Matsui @ DH
or
2) Holliday in LF, Matsui/Damon @ DH.
Option 1 leaves the Yanks primed to be BIG players in 2010 FA class, but a little weak for next season.
Option 2 pretty much locks down a great middle of the lineup for the next 5-6 years. This option wouldn’t necessarily leave the Yanks on the bench for the 2010 FA class – their participation will have a lot to do with Mo and Jeter’s next contrats, and how profitable the ‘09 and ‘10 seasons were.
I like Curtis a lot. If he was on the Yanks next year, I’d be happy about it. I just don’t see Cashman doing it. If he’s going to deal prospects for a player, it will be for a difference maker (Roy Halladay), not to improve the only non-above average part of the lineup.
As currently constituted, the Yanks success next year will most likely hinge on how well Joba and Phil perform in the rotation.
There’s no such thing as a productive out
A strikeout is the worst possible out you can make. Even hitting into a DP can score a run under the right circumstances. SO being just another out sounds great in concept, but in practice it is lacking as it fails to put pressure on the defense as well as potentially advancing/scoring runner
————————————-
thank you. Blind allegiance to the Bill James baseball philosophy really gets tired, after a while
I agree with Sam completely. It depends what we are sending over. I don’t mind keeping Damon, for another year, to see what happens with Austin Jackson and or the free agent market next season, but I’m not sold on Cabrera/Gardner. Granderson is better than a Gardner and Cabrera platoon.
I do like Cabrera platooning with Granderson. As Gardner can come late in games to pinch run, than take over left for Damon. That would be ideal.
Jackson+Jairo Heredia+Brett Gardner for Granderson. Move Melky to LF.
Sign a RH bat as a 4th OF. Marlon Byrd would be perfect. So would Xavier Nady.
Sign Ben Sheets to an incentive-laden deal.
Move Joba to the bullpen and Hughes into the rotation.
Let go of Damon and sign Matsui to be a DH/PH. Re-sign Hairston.
Re-sign Wang as insurance. If he gets healthy, and they don’t need him, use him as trade bait in July.
CC/AJ/Sheets/Pettitte/Hughes. Melancon/Robertson/Aceves/Coke/Marte/Joba/Mo.
Jeter/Granderson/Tex/A-Rod/Posada/Matsui/Cano/Swisher/Melky.
Cervelli/Hairston/Pena/Byrd.
And another WS championship in 2010.
vinny-b
Agree with you that it was time for Torre to go. I was bothered by the last few chapters that degraded Cashman and Torre’s portrayal of the Boss, things he could have left out of the book.
Strikeouts!! Interestingly the Yankees set a record of 56 strikeouts in a 6 game WS.
Read this interesting fact article about the WS-
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4624943
Putting the ball in play can be just a big of a rally killer as a SO. This whole productive outs thing is so ridiculously overblown. There are so few situations where by putting the ball in play you can make a productive out.
Run-scoring sacrifice fly:
in what way is that not a productive out?
Yankees should do this:
Rotation: Hughes and Chamberlain gotta be starters. They, along with Burnett, need to be consistent. Petite will leave soon, and then we have four core starters for a few years at the least.
Sabathia, Burnett, Petite, Hughes, Chamberlain.
David Robertson will be the set up man for Mariano. He might be transitioned into the closer role in the future.
I don’t really like any of our outfielders. Damon and Matsui are going to go on the decline, and aren’t good hitters, Brett Gardner can’t hit, and Swisher needs to be able to hit in addition to walking. I think Cabrera is a solid choice, but besides that I’m not sure. Austin Jackson, I have nfi, but maybe. If we bring back one I think we should bring back Damon. But we need 1 more power hitter to back up A-Rod. Holliday?
As for Catcher, Cervelli more than proved his worth as the backup.
I completely agree on the strike out vs. other out issue. Balls in play can produce positive results while strike outs never do. There’s no such thing as a good out? Advancing and scoring a runner can certainly be a good thing. I have watched way too many games where the runner on third with one out doesn’t score becasue of a strike out when the infield is playing back. Hit the ball!
We must remember Jackson fans about as much as Granderson.
“There’s no such thing as a productive out”
So sac flys that score runs and sac bunts that put runners into scoring position are not considered to be productive? All the high fives I see given to a player from the dugout that makes these types of outs tells a different story.
I can see the Yamkees trying to upgrade the CF position, Melky is decent all around player though more suited to being the first OF off the bench because he can play all three OF positions. Gardner is a AAA player at best, the guy can’t hit at all and is average in the OF. A CF would be a welcome they could sign Damon & have him split time with Melky & DH….
I don’t see the Yankees shelling out another 100M+ contract for Holliday.
Matsui will either have to accept a one year deal or move on.
Damon-I’m sure the Yankees would prefer year to year deals, and I’m not sure he’ll even sign for two years.
vinny-b
November 14th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
A strikeout is the worst possible out you can make. Even hitting into a DP can score a run under the right circumstances. SO being just another out sounds great in concept, but in practice it is lacking as it fails to put pressure on the defense as well as potentially advancing/scoring runner
————————————-
thank you. Blind allegiance to the Bill James baseball philosophy really gets tired, after a while
———————-
How is stating that Mike Cameron is a better player than Melky Cabrera or Brett Gardner blind allegiance to Bill James? Anyone in baseball can tell you that without using sabermetrics.
Blind allegiance to “HE STRIKES OUT ALOT, HE SUCKS!!!!” is much more idiotic and irrational than looking at every relevant statistic and saying hmmm. Mike Cameron is pretty much better in every single one. I am going to say based on that, he is a better baseball player.
A SO is an out. I will take a better all around baseball player who happens to strike out a lot and sacrifice and the minuscule amount of times a DP is actually “productive.”
It is very simple. Mike Cameron is better on offense and defense than Melky even with all the strike outs. Therefore, he will drive in more runs and save more runs. That is the definition of production.
I read that Matsui is ageless article. Maybe, but its up to the scouts to confirm that.
If Matsui doesn’t decline then there is no doubt that he is worth being back. Damon also should be back.
But in all likelihood, I can’t see an injured Matsui maintaining his power and ability. Nor can I see Damon doing that.
“I do like Cabrera platooning with Granderson.”
Cabrera is not that good hitting from the right side. He is a better hitter from the left side.
I completely agree on the strike out vs. other out issue. Balls in play can produce positive results while strike outs never do. There’s no such thing as a good out? Advancing and scoring a runner can certainly be a good thing. I have watched way too many games where the runner on third with one out doesn’t score becasue of a strike out when the infield is playing back. Hit the ball!
—————————————————
and don’t forget. There’s no such thing as ‘clutch hitting’ either. : )
Mike Cameron is old. The Yankees are trying to get younger.
Rose,
So what is your alternative? Put the lefty Gardner in there? Leave Granderson who hits a hundred points lower versus lefties?
Besides that, Melky hit 268 against lefties last season, that’s not good, but compared to Granderson who is hitting under 190, I’ll take it. But hey, that’s just me.
I’m convinced that Brett Gardner is not a hitter even with all the work Kevin Long has done with him. He’s Bubba Crosby with a little more speed.
If another team beats Cashman with Granderson, sign free agent Marlon Byrd and take Damon with a 2-year deal with a team option / buyout clause for a 3rd year. Melky is the 4th OF with enough at bats between the 3 OF positions.
If it means Austin Jackson and Zach McAllister to get Granderson then sweeten the deal to include Edwin Jackson as a good 5th starter option.
Matsui would take a 2-year deal.
http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/....._id=429719
no way on granderson, or any trade, to be honest. IMO, sign cameron, and resign damon and matsui, and pettitte. Allow girardi to use his macro-managing skillz to turn the “logjam” into a strength of depth.
Matsui and Damon will be another year older and slower.
One scenario:
Trade for Granderson and take on Carlos Guillen’s contract, to lessen the value we give up in return.
Sign Marlon Byrd and his 20 homers for LF or trade for Ivan DeJesus and his 13 assists, no errors for left field.
Move Cabrera to Right
Swisher to DH
Cervelli backup catcher.
Use money saved to find another starter/reliever.
With less than 2 outs and a runner on 3rd, the runner has scored 47% of the time Mike Cameron has been at the plate in his career.
For comparison, in Alex Rodriguez’s career 52% of the time the runner scores.
LGY,
I don’t believe anyone is screaming that high SO #’s mean a player sucks? What people are saying is that it should not be taken lightly. Nothing emboldens a pitcher more than a guy that has holes in his swing and has a propensity to K. Cameron has a very long swing and is not known for shortening it under any circumstances. That is a detriment. I believe in a player simply getting the job done and if it meeans poking the ball the other way to do it then so be it. Cameron over the years has shown an unwillingness to do so.
“Trade for Granderson and take on Carlos Guillen’s contract, to lessen the value we give up in return.
Sign Marlon Byrd and his 20 homers for LF or trade for Ivan DeJesus and his 13 assists, no errors for left field.
Move Cabrera to Right
Swisher to DH”
1. Why should we absorb guillen’s contract if all we’re getting out of it is a mediocre defensive CF who can’t hit lefties to save his life?
2. Marlon Byrd is basically damon, except less likely to repeat his offensive season
3. Who is Ivan Dejesus? If you’re talking about david dejesus, you’re talking about another player of comparable overall value to damon’s (better, though wildly overrated, defense, less offense)
4. Melky Cabrera is not now and never will be a good enough hitter to play RF. His bat barely justifies even a solid defensive CF as it is. What makes you think he’ll grow into a true impact bat?
5. What is it about Swisher that says “DH”? His +5 UZR (2nd best among yanks outfielders, behind gardner)? The yanks’ glut of over-30 power bats who will either need to DH often, or, if matsui is resigned, will only be capable of DHing?
think, mon. think what you say
What you are saying is that because Melky Cabrera strikes out less and is more willing “to poke the ball the other way” means he is a more productive and better player than Cameron.
That is simply not true. Mike Cameron is more productive in basically every statistical category offensively and defensively. Regardless of how many times he SO, he still creates more runs and saves more runs than Melky.
“LGY,
I don’t believe anyone is screaming that high SO #’s mean a player sucks? What people are saying is that it should not be taken lightly. Nothing emboldens a pitcher more than a guy that has holes in his swing and has a propensity to K. Cameron has a very long swing and is not known for shortening it under any circumstances. That is a detriment. I believe in a player simply getting the job done and if it meeans poking the ball the other way to do it then so be it. Cameron over the years has shown an unwillingness to do so.”
Yet, despite this glaring flaw in Cameron’s game, he has continued to be a reliable, consistent 4-5 WAR player for years…I can’t see how anybody here would not take that in a heartbeat, high k-rate or no…
“Sam Borden would make a better GM than Omar Minaya”
He’s probably done a better job evaluating the market.
Don’t think the Yankees will sign both Damon and Matsui. Sign Damon to 2 years and let Matsui go. DH can be shared. OF of Damon, Melky and Swisher. Gardner is your 4th outfielder. Jackson hopefully will be ready in 2011.
If Cashman doesn’t sign Damon he can fill left field multiple ways. Depends how much money he wants to spend, Holliday. Don’t know if Figgins is suited to play left.
Trade for Granderson depends on what players Detroit wants. Cashman wants to hold onto his young players.
Rose
November 14th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Mike Cameron is old. The Yankees are trying to get younger.
————————–
The Yankees are trying to get younger in the grand scheme of things by not signing any more over 30 guys to long term contracts. Cashman never says or does anything for just next year. He always works on at least a 3 year plan.
Mike Cameron furthers the lets say 3 year plan of getting younger because you only sign him for 1-2 years as a stopgap for Austin Jackson. With Cameron there is no need to sign a long term contract with a Holliday or Bay for example and you do not need to trade Jackson for Granderson, thus making the team younger
Why would you want Cameron? He is 37, hit .250 with 156 strike outs. How is he much better than what you have.
For which OF position is A Jax best suited?
lgy: bingo. Signing a +10 UZR CF who has 20-hr power and gets on base at a decent clip to bat either 8th or 9th, and lessens the yanks’ dependence on Damon’s defense and Matsui’s bat (on an every day basis, anyway), is a good thing, regardless of that player’s age. Nobody’s suggesting that we give cameron anything more than a 1+1 deal for an AAV of at most $10 mil. But as a stopgap until either carl crawford is available, or jackson is a viable option, especially when there is no cost in player resources, could be huge. In fact, it could be the difference between a club that leans too hard on its older players, and a club that has the roster flexibility (and defensive proficiency) to maximize the production of its older players. In other words, the difference between a team that should be the favorite to win it all in 2010, and a team that would fall right back into the proverbial “thick” of it.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....s_aim.html
Pretty powerful story about about Doc. I loved him when he was on the Mets, the only Met I had any tolerance for at all. I was honestly afraid that his life wasn’t going to have a happy ending, so I’m glad that he seems to have turned things around. I remember his curveball – it was a thing of beauty
“For which OF position is A Jax best suited?”
I saw him a lot in WB/S this year. CF or LF. He covers too much ground to be wasted in RF.
Yankee Trader
November 14th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Damon IMO will be gone to a team offering him a 3 year contract.
Detroit is apparently hurting financially and has a lot of contracts in no particular order it would like to unload:
Dontrell Willis
Nate Robertson
Magglio Ordonez
Jeremy Bonderman
Brandon Inge
Carlos Guillen
Gerald Laird
Now if you want Granderson, who actually had decent average against lefties in 2008, without giving up Roberton or AJAX, think which of the above players contracts you might have to take on to outbid the Cubs and other teams hot after Granderson.
And yes I would like to see Granderson patrolling CF. Saw MLB clutch fielding highlights the other night, showing Granderson leaping high and snagging a sure homer, reaching over the fence. Can anyone remember one of our OF’ers doing that this year??
———————————————————–
melky & gardner are fine defensively
no way i give up any good prospects with the way he hits lefties
if he was like 26 yrs old & hit lefties better maybe
unless i throw in one of joba/hughes with some other prospects for cg & verlander
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
Melky’s stats are comparable to Camerons. Although Melky hit less homers he didn’t strike out nearly as much as Cameron. Put the ball in play, something good might happen. Cameron doesn’t do that often enough. I’ll take Melky over Cameron.
All Arsenal fans…be worried!van Persie is injured and will be out for 3 months!
NO! Anybody but van Persie!
Is he an outfielder or a pitcher?
CR9
November 14th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Trisha
He was being offered a contract to be the highest paid manager in the game. How dare we offer him 5 mil a year! He took offense with the incentives. How dare we offer him incentives!
NYY626
I am sure Torre was happy for individuals such as Mo, Jeter, and a few others. But he was probably not happy for George, the Yankees organization, Alex, Damon, and some others.
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the incentives were for winning & going farther in playoff rounds
the magic that won all the ws did not need incentives
jt was to busy looking over his shoulder & stressed out wich distracted him from managing properly
they thought he needed incentives to keep him motivated because they didnt win in a while & he was laid back
with a man like torre it was over at that point
he was burnt out
Mark
A catcher..
Melky’s stats are comparable to Camerons. Although Melky hit less homers he didn’t strike out nearly as much as Cameron. Put the ball in play, something good might happen. Cameron doesn’t do that often enough. I’ll take Melky over Cameron.
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Until you find some comparable stats I am not buying that. Mike Cameron is better in every statistical category offensively and defensively except BA and SO.
This is not conjecture. This is not “well something might happen if you put the ball in play” All the statistics show Cameron is a much more productive player because he creates more runs and saves more runs. So it is not might. It is what does happen
LGY,
I recall having similar discussions with members of other forums concerning Adam Dunn last season. For all of the statistical analysis showing him to be a highly productive player and an asset to teams no one but the Nationals gave him the time of day. Now obviously Cameron has defensive qualities that Dunn can’t replicate, but the offensive arguments were similar. Either the 29 other teams out there had no clue and couldn’t appreciate the fantasy value of Dunn or just perhaps teams have come to the conclusion that the game has changed and all or nothing hitters with lofty OPS #’s that mirror their high strikeout numbers are not really all that valuable.
ty,
My argument was about OVERALL production. Dunn is so bad defensively he takes away basically everything he does offensively. He only had a 1.2 WAR this year. Cameron and Dunn are not similar. Cameron is a 4+ war player
Do u believe that Melky is an everyday left fielder? Uh, I think he’s more than proven that already. Maybe you didn’t watch the 2009 season. We were fine with Melky playing everyday in center. If we traded for Granderson, an outfield of Curtis in center, Swisher in right, and Melky in left would be fine. Gardner as your 4th outfielder. It would work out great. I hope they are able to snag Granderson, the guy is a really great talent and he’s still young.
Mike Cameron is old. Way older than Melky. NO thanks. Cameron’s better days are behind him. Even talking about him is a waste of time. the Yankees don’t want that guy anymore.
KO,
So younger=better. I must have missed that. His better days are not behind him. His statistics this past year are right in line with his entire career offensively and he is still a great CF.
And talking about him is not a waste of time because I would pretty much bet anything that the Yankees are considering signing him.
Couple things,
Is Mike Cameron a type A or type b free agent?
Is he worth a salary of 3X as much of what Cabrera will make next year?
He’s also going to be 37 years old next year. Can he hold up physically?
If all things were equal then yes you go get Mike Cameron.
However all things are surely not equal.
If they’re going to sign an outfielder I’d much rather see them sign Marlon Byrd over Mike Cameron.
Cameron is a Type-B FA, so the Yanks’ pick would be safe. The problem with older players is that they are less likely to hold up over the length of a long-term contract. On a one-year deal, that risk is minimized.
Oh, and for the “productive out” crowd, Mike Cameron, despite striking out so much more than Melky, actually had more sacrifice flies than Melky. Obviously, this doesn’t control for opportunity, but I think we can say that it’s likely Melky, playing on a team historically good at getting on base, likely had plenty of opportunities.
Whatever incremental value there is to making an out on a ball in play over striking out is significantly less than the value of not making an out over making an out. Cameron is better at not making outs than Cabrera.
Cabrera does not really need to be replaced. He is good enough in CF and hitting 9th. So I don’t really see any point in Granderson if the Yanks have to give up any top tier prospect. Especially when he was awful vs lefties last year and opposing teams love to throw lefties at the Yanks. On top of that, his performance has decreased significantly the last two years.
I think the other teams being mentioned will offer more for Granderson than the Yankees will. Just a feeling.
As for Melky/Gardner in CF. We just won a title with the both of them playing the position and batting 9th. I actually don’t see CF as a pressing need as long as we keep our offensive positional advantages where we currently have them and as long as we sign a true dedicated DH (like Matsui or Vlad) and a very solid LF like we have/had in Damon.
We can win with Melky/Gardner and let Ajax break in slowly (provided he isn’t dealt).
Anyone claiming we can’t win with that combo in CF has severe short term memory.
Are they an ideal platoon for CF? No. But in this lineup when the other positions are filled with solid performers they are more than acceptable as a CF tandem (although Melky really held the job down).
I love Granderson as a player and think he’d be an awesome CF for the Yanks, but I wouldn’t trade any decent pitching for him when the current platoon we have just helped to win a title.
This off season, to me, is more about possibly getting 1 more starter and either retaining Damon and Matsui at team friendly terms or replacing them with high quality players.
“Anyone claiming we can’t win with that combo in CF has severe short term memory.”
Nobody said that at all. But winning the title doesn’t automatically mean the team can’t be improved. I personally think the team is better if Melky and/or Gardner are reserve outfielders or insurance against A-Jax not being ready rather than being starters from the get-go.
As for Matsui and Damon being another older and slower;
Matsui is a DH. He doesn’t need to be fast. What team employs a fast running DH in the league?
Let me know when you figure that one out.
As for Damon being another year older and slower, that is true. But I don’t think he’s about to fall off a cliff as a player and I’d bet that the next 2 years of his career will be similar to this past season.
If he wants/needs 3-4 years, it’s a deal breaker. But for 2 years he’s a good bet.
I just don’t see who you replace Damon with unless you want Holliday here for the next 6 years or Bay for 5 years.
After those two, I think the rest of the options come with red flags equal to or worse than Damon’s age red flag.
Kevin S.,
Agreed. I think upgrading is a great idea. Like I said, I love Granderson and think he’d thrive here, but I also know the Tigers are going to ask for pitching.
Personally, I don’t want to lose a guy like Robertson or Hughes/Joba for Granderson.
If you tell me can deal IPK and Coke for him, I’ll pack their bags.
I just have a feeling that a CF who just hit 30 dingers and has a manageable contract for the next 3 years is going to require more than that.
i’ve said it before, i’ll say it again: sign damon, matsui, and cameron, then use melkner’s passable-major-leaguer-ness to spell the older trio, and thereby maximize their all around productiveness over the course of the whole year.
for those comparing melky to cameron, please get this into your head:
Melky: 95 OPS+, +2ish UZR guy
Cammy: 110 OPS+, +10ish UZR guy
melky cabrera is not Mike Cameron.
Cameron would be good for 1 year. It’s hard to argue against that. But only if he’s willing to work with K Long.
i’ve said it before, i’ll say it again: sign damon, matsui, and cameron, then use melkner’s passable-major-leaguer-ness to spell the older trio, and thereby maximize their all around productiveness over the course of the whole year.
for those comparing melky to cameron, please get this into your head:
Melky: 95 OPS+, +2ish UZR guy
Cammy: 110 OPS+, +10ish UZR guy
melky cabrera is not Mike Cameron.
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I agree that Melky is not as good as Cameron, but I also don’t think it’s necessary to make that upgrade if they get both Damon and Matsui back, nor do I know if they would be able to do that financially. Keep in mind some other players will be getting raises.
Not that we cannot win, but our team would definitely be hindered by Melky and Gardner together in the OF with Swish.
ANYONE THAT WANTS gRANDERSON ON THE YANKEES, HAS NOT LOOKED AT HIS STATS. eVERY YEAR HIS PRODUCTION HAS GONE DOWN, K’S ARE UP, FEW SB’S, AND HE BATS .183 AGAINST LEFTIES. ANY PLAYER THE YANKEES NOW HAVE, INCLUDING GARDNER, WOULD OUT PLAY GRANDERSON. LET JACKSON COME UP MID-SEASON AND BE THE EVERY DAY CF. I’D RATHER INVEST IN HOLLIDAY FOR LF, AND MOVE MELKY TO RF, PLATOON SWISHER AND GARDNER IN THE OF. WHERE ARE THE YANKEES GOING TO FIND A #5 HITTER THAT’S AS PRODUCTIVE AS MATSUI? HE CAN PROTECT A-ROD, POSADA CAN’T. I’D LIKE TO SEE MONTERO BROUGHT UP AS THE BACK-UP, LEARN WHAT HE CAN FROM POSADA WHILE HE’S STILL HERE. I DON’T SEE POSADA FINISHING HIS YANKEES CAREER AS THE STARTING C.
ANYONE THAT WANTS gRANDERSON ON THE YANKEES, HAS NOT LOOKED AT HIS STATS. eVERY YEAR HIS PRODUCTION HAS GONE DOWN, K’S ARE UP, FEW SB’S, AND HE BATS .183 AGAINST LEFTIES. ANY PLAYER THE YANKEES NOW HAVE, INCLUDING GARDNER, WOULD OUT PLAY GRANDERSON. LET JACKSON COME UP MID-SEASON AND BE THE EVERY DAY CF. I’D RATHER INVEST IN HOLLIDAY FOR LF, AND MOVE MELKY TO RF, PLATOON SWISHER AND GARDNER IN THE OF. WHERE ARE THE YANKEES GOING TO FIND A #5 HITTER THAT’S AS PRODUCTIVE AS MATSUI? HE CAN PROTECT A-ROD, POSADA CAN’T. I’D LIKE TO SEE MONTERO BROUGHT UP AS THE BACK-UP, LEARN WHAT HE CAN FROM POSADA WHILE HE’S STILL HERE. I DON’T SEE POSADA FINISHING HIS YANKEES CAREER AS THE STARTING C.
November 14th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
“Cameron? Whiffs as much as Granderson and is 8 years older. 37 in January. Why would you want him? I’ll pass on Cameron.”
He would only cost cash, instead of prospects AND cash.
Cameron for 1 or 2 years + Austin Jackson, Z-Mac, and any other prospoects are more valuable than Curtis Granderson – (minus) the propsects.
Vin…I don’t want any 37 year old centerfielders…I wouldn’t take them even if they were named DiMaggio or Mays.
I agree that pitching is key – but you said outfielders aren’t that important…
… Funny how Johnny Damon, probably single handedly turned that entire series around and Matsui practically won two games by himself
granted, the pitching allowed those two the opportunity, but it can’t be ignored either
Mike S. – you don’t want to lock into them long term, but a player’s best predictor of his next season is his previous season. If a guy was a plus defender in center at 36, chances are he’ll remain good at 37.
I think not. There will be a downward progression with greater risk for injury. Andy, Matsui, Damon, Jeter, Alex (35 next year), Mo…now Cameron? How many over 35 guys do you want? And if they all go down due to age, diminished production and/or injury, what then? Do you want a team or an old-timers game?
Yes, there is a greater risk of injury, but that’s why you have depth. Cameron is still likely to be better than either, as the expected downward progression for him doesn’t cover the gap (we rarely *expect* somebody to fall off the table, and Cameron’s body type ages well). And for the record, I consider him to be in lieu of Damon or Matsui, so not everybody on your list there (though you forgot Posada).
To be clear, Mike Cameron has essentially the same age-related risks as Damon and lacks the injury history of Matsui. He will require less salary and less commitment in terms of years, and when we consider defense, he’s been more valuable than either of the others in three of the past four years.
Are we forgetting the DH slot?
We can have a standard OF of Granderson, Gardbrerra, and Swish, with Damon DHing.
On days that Posada DHs, one of the 4 sits (depending on their current health and pitching matchup).
If and when AJax is ready, we can make room by trading Melky.
Go get Granderson to play CF, trade for either DeJesus to play LF[13 assists no errors] or sign Marlon Byrd to play left field[20 homers], move Cabrera to right and DH Swisher.
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Word. And I would also sign Nady to a very small dollar one year deal. Between Granderson, Cabrera, Swisher, Byrd/DeJesus and Nady, there’s plenty of offense to go around in the OF and DH spot.
Mike Cameron “was” a very good player, with few his equal defensively. Though a career .250 hitter, he hit with power and was, and still is, a positive clubhouse presence. If you have watched him with any regularity over the past two years, you would have noted that he has slipped defensively, most notably in his capacity to get the jump on the ball, which in the past, was a high point of his defensive excellence…Melky gets a far better “first step” than Cameron circa 08 -09. Signing Cameron would be a mistake…hopefully, Cashman will keep his pen in his pocket.
Damon’s charisma, his baseball intelligence and his clutch hitting have caused many of us to ignore his woeful antics in the field. His decline has been dramatic as his adventures in roping in the easiest of flyballs has (or should have) caused Girardi and staff sustaining discomfort. Most simply put, he cannot play the position at an acceptable level. As the DH, perhaps, if you value his presence more valuable than that of Hideki’s….assuming it is one or the other. Even though there has been commentary that the DH slot will be a rotating one given the abundance of aged vets encumbering the roster, the need for a ” regular DH” cannot be ignored, and I doubt that Cashman will. Even assuming it to be a close call, the money flowing from the Japanese market should be a determining factor.
don’t worry. cashman has proved he’s no idiot. the yankees aren’t going to give up joba or hughes to get curtis granderson–or any other good, but unspectacular, player.
if the yanks trade a young starter, the first one to go would be ian kennedy.
there would be no point at all in trading away joba or hughes in a deal for a hitter.
the yankees have a lot of “expendable” talent to pull off a deal for someone like granderson. gardner, kennedy, jackson, dunn, mcallister, melancon are all very viable trading chips. giving up a few of those guys in off-season deals this year wouldn’t surprise me. as for jackson, he’s a good prospect, but until he starts hitting for power, there’s not really too much to get excited about. granderson would likely be a more productive player for the yankees over the next couple of seasons than would a-jax.
“Pitching is what wins and outfielders just aren’t as important.”
I understand what you’re saying. But eacj individual situation has its own flavor. I mean, sure you wouldn’t give up Hughes or Joba for Granderson. But you’d definitely give either of them up for Justin Upton. And Grady Sizemore. And Ryan Braun. And you’d probably give one of them up for Matt Kemp. So, there are definitely some oufielders out there that are worth giving up pitching for. But I think we can mostly agree that Granderson is not one of those guys.
Defense also wins championships and improves pitching. Granderson could impact that aspect of the game as well. the run diffence with Tex was huge this year. id say 5-7 wins. we won the east by 8 I think….