The untouchables?
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 22, 2009 
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There’s already been some discussion in the comments about Nick Cafardo’s last article, specifically about this paragraph:
The Yankees could easily get into the Roy Halladay hunt if they’re willing to part with Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain, which they apparently are. The one player they’d love to hold on to is Austin Jackson, their future center fielder who could keep their outfield costs low.
Seems to me that getting Halladay would almost certainly cost one of the Yankees top young pitchers, and that young pitcher would be replaced by the new ace, which make it easier to give up either Hughes or Chamberlain. Replacing Jackson is tougher for the Yankees because they don’t have nearly the same outfield depth in the system.
Aside from guys like Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera, it’s hard to label anyone as untouchable. It’s a matter of finding the right deal. No doubt the Yankees would rather keep Chamberlain and Hughes, but for an ace like Halladay, they might be willing to deal one of them. They’d certainly rather keep Jackson as well, but for a young outfielder — there’s been a lot of talk here about Curtis Granderson — he might become more available.
I don’t know whether the Yankees are actually willing to trade Chamberlain or Hughes, but I don’t think the idea of moving one of them for Halladay is outrageous. It’s probably necessary for such a deal.
Trading a young stud pitcher for a 33 year old pitcher that will demand a contract extension at huge money, no matter how good that 33 year old pitcher is, is asking for trouble. Simply said, it’s moronic.
“young stud pitcher”, neither has shown beyond glimpses to fit that description, halladay is a known commodity, I’d be fine with the yankees moving either for halladay or holding pat, but I’d not like seeing halladay wind up in a sox uniform.
That’s 1980′s-era thinking, James.
Agree 100% with James.
People aren’t trading those kind of pitchers anymore. See the Santana deal from two years ago and Santana was 4 years younger than Halladay is. Toronto is thinking pie in the sky if they think they are gonna get anywhere near what they were offered at the deadline. Halladay has already said he won’t resign with them and they have no leverage.
Id trade Joba before id ever trade Hughes. if the jays wanted Joba and some others for Halladay, please pull the trigger with out any questions
We won the World Series… without Roy Halliday.
This again.
Oh, are we still in June?
No, that’s right. It’s November.
How’d we do without must-have Roy, any way?
Oh, that’s right. We won.
Next.
As in, next generation of Great Young Yankee Arms.
BTW, for those actually interested in a pitching-centric empire made up of mostly system guys, please see PSP Part VI of Nardi Series.
Jose Ramirez…Jose Ramirez…Jose Ramirez….:D
Yes Leaping Tom.
Yes Yes.
murphydog
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Agree 100% with James.
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Disagree 100% with King James Version of Winning Baseball
.
Getting Doc is all about the cost. If it’s Joba or Phil, plus the mandatory contract extension at mega-bucks, I think Cash’s track record over the past couple years (since Santana was put on the market by the Twins) has been to pass on those type deals. Though still with much to prove, their upside is better than that for a 33-year old pitcher.
IF the price for Doc is a lesser player, and a contract that won’t necessarily be an albatross, then maybe.
I still think the Yanks will seriously look at Ben Sheets, who would only cost the money for a short term deal.
The point is, there is no way the Yankees would be willing to move Joba or Phil and not Jackson. Nick Cafardo has no clue what he’s talking about.
Leaping Tom
November 22nd, 2009 at 2:10 pm
We won the World Series… without Roy Halliday.
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The Yankees will survive if Halladay goes to the Sox…..I agree, it’s a 1980′s type of mentality to trade young pitcher(s) for a veteran who will be 37/38 at the end of his extended contract. Those who insist that Doc will remain dominant throughout the life of his contract are just speculating. There are more pitchers (haven’t we been through this already with this team?) who have faded badly at that age than have continued being dominant and I am not willing to trade huge pieces of our future for the possibility that Doc remains dominant.
Anyone who would trade joba or houghes for a 33 year old 1 year rental need to see a doctor asap you don’t do that especialy after you won the WS, I’m glad you’re not the Yanks GM
And, along the lines of the NY Times article linked by Betsy in the last thread – I think Cash says sayonara, thanks for everything, to Matsui and looks for Curtis Granderson, PLUS another bat.
Adam Dunn? Last year, I wasn’t sold on him, but he did have great numbers. His lifetime OPS is .900, and he averages around 40 HR, from the left side. Can you imagine THAT hitting behind Alex?
He has one more year on his contract with the Nats, and I would think that some young pitching – Kennedy, Nova, McAllister, Noesi who was just added to the 40-man – might do it for the Nats. Heck, they just shelled out 20M for Strasburg coming out of college.
Just dreaming….
Cashman is not going to abandon his own philosophy for the honor of paying a premium for Roy Halladay in his dotage.
That dinosaur is dead.
I don’t see Cashman pulling off a trade for Halladay. Of course, he could do it–I’m sure that an offer of Hughes/Montero/Banuelos would get the Blue Jays’ attention–but such a move wouldn’t be consistent with what Cashman’s been doing over the past couple of years. And, it certainly isn’t the case that the yankees are desperate.
Halladay’s a great pitcher, but so was Johan Santana two years ago, and Cashman resisted giving up the farm for him. Why would he give up the farm now, especially after the kind of success the yanks had in 2009?
Ben Sheets is a free agent. He’s a bit of a risk, for sure. But, if he’s fully healthy, he’s a top pitcher.
John Lackey is a FA, an absolute horse, and a winner. A notch below Halladay, but still…he’d cost only money.
And then there’s Josh Johnson. One of the best young pitchers in the game and, apparently, on the block. You want to give up top-shelf young pitching talent like Joba or Hughes in a deal for a pitcher? Johnson’s the kind of guy to pursue. 25 years old (not 33, like Halladay), with great stuff and a track record.
The Yankees do not “need” Roy Hallday. It would be absolutely idiotic for them to give up the farm for something they don’t need. I wish fans would appreciate this.
Btw as far as I remember doc hasn’t pitched a good game on a big stage (anyone wathched the allstar game???) He’s a great pitcher without expectations, in NY he will fail & then all of you who wanted him will cry cashmen should’ve known better
Dunn either walks, Ks, or hits homers.
Can’t field a lick.
Walking and homering are fine, but he’s not a guy you want up with one out, man on second, in extra innings, in the postseason.
If we’re coveting a lefty slugger who can’t field a position, we have one – Juan Miranda. And he actually would be quite useful with man on second, one out, extra innings, postseason, because he’s a much better contact hitter. And much cheaper
.
I’m sure that an offer of Hughes/Montero/Banuelos would get the Blue Jays’ attention–
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It would also get Cashman fired.
jake
November 22nd, 2009 at 2:27 pm
I don’t see Cashman pulling off a trade for Halladay. Of course, he could do it–I’m sure that an offer of Hughes/Montero/Banuelos would get the Blue Jays’ attention–but such a move wouldn’t be consistent with what Cashman’s been doing over the past couple of years. And, it certainly isn’t the case that the yankees are desperate.
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jake, I agree. If they really want Halladay I see them waiting a year until he’s a free agent. I really don’t see Cash pulling of a trade to get him this year. It would be kind of a strange move to do it now, IMO
Juan Miranda will be in the DH rotation as they pass on Matsui and spend on LF and pitching.
The problem is…..you can’t sit here and say “we did fine in 2009, why change the team?” Yes NY did fine in 2009, but the reason they won the world series (aside from sabathia) is because Matsui and Damon played spectacular baseball this postseason, the chances of them repeating their 2009 performance is very small if you ask me….and you cant have Sabathia going on short rest the whole postseason again, especially now that Selig said next years postseason wont have as many days off. Gonna need 4 starters next year and beyond…..Pettitte has a year left in the tank, Burnett is sketchy aside from Game 2 of the WS……….
Point is, the old guys hit and pitched well and Arod had a postseason for the ages. Riding into next year expecting a repeat by throwing out the same team of over the hill position players when your competition goes out and improves their teams is near sighted.
The Yankees do not “need” Roy Hallday. It would be absolutely idiotic for them to give up the farm for something they don’t need. I wish fans would appreciate this.
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Well, the good news is, some of us do. More importantly, Cashman gets it, and for a change, so does the owner.
James is 300 percent correct.
Halladay is 33. thats not Ancient. How old was Clemens when we signed him…36. How old was David Wells , David Cone ,Jimmy Key, ext ext.
Again Hallady is a 33 NOT 93. he’s a stud and an Ace. giving up either Joba or Hughes isn’t going to kill us.
I for one hope the trade goes down.
I’m not giving up young talent for Adam Dunn, no thanks.
Seriously….Everyone was fine with giving AJ Burnett a 5 year 80 mill deal just this past offseason….and guess what he’s 33 in a little over a month from now lol. Roy Halladay is not ancient by any means.
AJ is sketchy aside from game 2 of the WS? Hmm, I seem to remember him giving up 1 run against the Twins, 2 runs against the Angels (where he was ultra-dominant except for one inning) and then the game 2 of the WS……. Not sketchy to me.
I don’t think the Yankees (or any champion) should stand pat, but let’s not pretend Matsui and Damon didn’t have good years (not just post-seasons). I definitely don’t think we should give them more than 1 and an option (if that), though – at some point, the Yankees need to get younger.
Ugh – I hate, hate the idea of DH rotation. If Alex DH’s, you’ve got some utility guy at 3rd; same goes for Jeter or whomever. Bodh, I absolutely do not want Miranda as DH (or part thereof).
Umm, Corey, we didn’t give up Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain for AJ.
In 1995 the yankees sent three guys to blue jays for a 33 year old David Cone, that deal worked out pretty well, cone has 4 rings.
In 1999 the yankees traded 3 guys including david wells to blue jays for a 36 year old guy named roger clemens.
Trading one of Joba/hughes and little else, does not equate to trading away the farm, not even close. Would it make more sense to try and get king felix, 100% but that’s not the topic here. Calling the notion of acquiring Roy “idiotic”, is exactly that.
Halladay is not a “need.” there is not way, after winning 103 regular season games and going 11-4 in the playoffs, culminating in a World Series victory, that anyone could think that they “need” Roy Halladay to succeed.
Is he a “nice to have”? Sure, for the right deal.
I don’t think Cashman abandons all he has fought so hard for over the last 2-3 years. No way. (I’ll be the first to eat my words if I’m wrong.)
I can see Granderson happening and Matsui gone. I’m not happy about Matsui perhaps being gone, though. But Granderson is not exactly “on the market” according to the Detroit GM. He is not untouchable. There is a difference. The difference is cost.
I don’t see anything at all happening until after the winter meetings. Cashman is certainly looking like he’s taking his time, measuring the market and waiting it out.
Trading a young stud pitcher for a 33 year old pitcher that will demand a contract extension at huge money, no matter how good that 33 year old pitcher is, is asking for trouble. Simply said, it’s moronic.
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Another one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Guess that David Cone trade with Toronto back in 95 was also moronic?
Just money is preferable to prospects and money by tons.
Totally disagree, Mike. What does Doc have anything to do with those pitchers? Coney struggled the last years of his career and Jimmy Key did not pitch until he was 37 or 38. Not only that, but he was never a dominant pitcher and was not expected to be so (and I LOVE Jimmy Key). I loved Roger when he signed here, but the man used steroids – I’m pretty sure that had a lot to do with his performance as he aged.
Corey, you’re kidding, right? First of all, very few people wanted AJ at any price. Secondly, they just gave him $$$ – the Yankees did not have to give up prospects. It’s not even close to being the same situation.
Ok James……..the Yankees traded garbage for David Cone.
AJ Burnett was sketchy. I seem to recall him having a 5.27 ERA in the postseason. In the ALCS: 2 No Decisions, 12.1 IP, 8 ER. In the World Series: 1-1, 9.0IP, 7 ER. He pitched well in the ALDS, but lets not forget the Twinkies didnt have Morneau this year which didnt help at all.
Betsy,
I want Matsui re-signed.
Failing that, I see no reason to go out and get a DH when we have a low cost, high-slug in-house option that hits the right way for the Stadium.
And I must say, I don’t even know why you’re down on Miranda. Is it because he’s not a “name”? This guy has a real bat. And he’s suited to sitting around and getting up just to hit. We have virtually no one else in-house currently who is able to do this.
This is the one guy who has the tunnel vision for just hitting. He is a born professional hitter. I see no risk at all there.
Is giving up either Hughes or Joba going to kill this team ??? NO .
AJ had one horrible game, one fantastic game, one not so hot, but the Yankees could have won if not for a bullpen implosion and one very good – that was the sum of his playoff experience this season. Not bad for someone who’d never been, I’d say.
Doreen….not bad for someone who never been. Terrible for someone who got almost a 100MM contract. He’s not a #2, period.
#3 very good starts by AJ, 2 terrible ones. Game 2 of the WS makes up for the bad starts by far………and taking away from his Twins game because they didn’t have Morneau? Then Andy and CC should be discredited somewhat as well.
Betsy I don’t recall off hand, what were Mike Gordon, Jason Jarvis and Marty Janzen’s ranks in the yankee system in 1995? I dont recognize the names but what they did vs what they were worth at the time are pretty different things.
bodhi -
Is there any indication that the Yankees are willing to go to Miranda?
I’d prefer Matsui, as well. He’s definitely shown that he CAN be a real DH, as opposed to a guy who is on his off day trying to hit 4 times in the game, or a guy who should be retired, but they want to squeeze a couple of HRs from him every so often.
I don’t relish a revolving DH. However, I have a feeling that if anyone could make such a scenario work, it would be Joe Girardi. Hopefully, though, they look at other replacement scenarios for Matsui first. (If Matsui goes elsewhere)
Terrible? LOL He earned his money with game 2 of the WS, if nothing else. I see we are never going to agree on this, so I’m done that.
How should CC be discredited when he put away all 3 teams the yankees faced this postseason? lol. My point is AJ Burnett was average at best. If you’re going to rely on him as your #2 again, Dont expect a WS Repeat, because next year theyre gonna need 4 starters with less postseason off days.
I think Matsui is a goner.
Corey -
He won game 2 of the WS, a much needed game, given they would have lost home field advantage, in a no-contest manner. I’d say he did what he was expected to do.
Bodh, I’m not leaving the DH spot in the hands of someone who’s rarely played in the majors. Not everyone from our farm system is going to be a star or even good-to-solid. I’ve no idea if he’s a real bat or not, but I’m not willing to give this guy the DH spot.
A starting pitcher that gives us innings is a need. An absolute need. The top priority of the entire team. If this team wants any chance at repeating they’re going to need someone else. We have one 7+ inning guy and 4 6 innning pitchers.. 2 of which have trouble going at least 6 btw. That is murder on the pen… a pen that doesn’t much exist right now either.
I think Halladay would be great but only if they can get him to sign an extention. If not, they have to find someone else. He’s a FA after this season so it would be giving up too much if he wouldn’t sign.
James, wherever they were ranked, they were garbage…….
Doreen, fyi -they had already lost HF advantage…..
Phil, on what do you base that? Also, what would you do with the DH spot?
IMHO you trade for Granderson, let him work with Long in the offseason and put him in CF.
Work out some return of Damon, “ideally”, although unlikely, a one year contract with easily reached incentives to get a 2nd year and let him DH, and continue to bat 2nd[ a spot not ideally suited for either Swisher or Cano]. Put Melky in left and instantly you have a better defensive outfield with no loss of lefty, Yankee Stadium, suited homerun power.
Now if your talking about trading one of Huges or Joba it better be for King Felix or Josh Johnson. You win WS #28, and then we can have this discussion next year as to whether
to sign Halladay as a FA, to replace Pettitte.
Um, CC shouldn’t be discredited, but you can not say AJ should be penalized for not facing Morneau and then not say the same for CC and Andy; talk about a double standard. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Betsy -
How did they lose HFA?
And my point was, anyway, that going into Philadelphia 0-2 would not have been a good thing.
Halladay wont make it to Free Agency. He’s going to be traded this winter and will sign a contract extension. The man has a no trade clause…he’s not going to go somewhere he wouldnt want a contract extension.
Joba and Hughes both have the talent to become Halladays. Especially Joba.
They lost the first game, Doreen. If the Phillies had swept, the series would not go back to NY. The Yankees had to win both games to keep HF…..
How much major league pitching has Miranda slugged against? Obviously none, so going that route is a bit of a risk. And I can certainly understand the K issue with Adam Dunn – goes against the flow with OBP and all. Still, 40 HRs, 100 RBI, .900 OPS, 144 OPS+ – that ain’t exactly chopped liver. And put his LH bat in YS with Damon’s Deck….just sayin’….
But, whether it’s Dunn, Miranda, or someone else, the evidence points to Matsui being gone, I think. I will miss him, am glad he got his ring before leaving, but I think you have to turnover the roster. At his age, with those knees (and we saw how his hitting suffered when they did bother him) – Remember how bad Vlad looked? That’s what I’m afraid of with Matsoo, that he’ll finally fall off the cliff and turn into the 2010 version of Vlad Guerrero and end his Yankee career that way. That would be a tragedy, all the way around.
Yeah, the Yankees won all those games last year. True. But what’s the Yankee rotation next year? Assume Pettitte doesn’t come back. Or assume he comes back and he can’t repeat 2009. Still think Roy is a luxury in the AL East?
Can Joba or Hughes really be counted on in 2010 to replace the regular season innings and wins Pettite gave them? Really?
Even if you could convince me that those regular season innings will be replaced, are you really telling me that Joba and/or Hughes can be counted on to give the Yankees a post season performance like Pettitte had in 2009? Remember that the playoffs, if the Yankees see them in 2010, will not have as many off days. That three-man rotation isn’t going to work next year in the ALCS and WS.
After CC and AJ a 2010 rotation featuring Hughes and Joba as #3 and 4 is neither proven nor consistent. Chad Gaudin? Sergio Mitre? Some AAA Phenom? I’d feel a whole lot better adding a proven, solid starter considering that the #2, Burnett, can look like a #1 or a #4 starter depending on the week.
Pettitte returning to the team in 2010 and returning to 2009 form is only the beginning. IMO, they need Roy. At the very least, if they don’t want/get Roy, they need to make drive Boston’s price waaaaay up.
trying to find any of them on baseball reference supports that lol, thank you blue jays. really the point there was some precedence to the last dynasty of impact guys 33+ in age that were traded for, as stated I’m rather indifferent in acquiring halladay, but I definitely don’t think it can be called stupid by any means
“There’s already been some discussion in the comments about Nick Cafardo’s last article, specifically about this paragraph:
The Yankees could easily get into the Roy Halladay hunt if they’re willing to part with Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain, which they apparently are”
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works for me. Get rid of one problem (Joba Chamberlain), while solving another (Roy Halladay). The Yankees would have a very very dependable/formidable rotation.
if you are able to turn Joba Chamberlain into Roy Halladay, then you do it.
Doreen, I am not trying to argue with you – I was just trying to convey some information. I got your real point.
SADF, there is almost no chance Joba or Phil become Doc (or any young pitcher, really), but they don’t have to be. I will be very happy if they are stud or even just very good pitchers for years…..
Whatever happened to the fun of watching young players develop from within?
I couldn’t care less about the $$. That’s Steinbrenners’ problem.
And you know, I’m all for picking up a necessary piece or two (super-happy about 2009 Swishee), but those fairytale 96-99 teams were often about regular players stepping it up (Brosius, Tino) or cast-offs being redeemed (Daryll, Wells).
And, of course, the kids.
Remember how cool it was to watch Jeter, Mo, Andy, Jorge? What about the role guys: Mendoza, Spenser, Ledee?
Come on — that’s fun.
Leave Doc in the frozen north.
Joe, what evidence is there to support the idea that Matsui is gone?
The Yankees need another ace…or a #2. AJ burnett as your #2 will not work out 2 years in a row. If it does, i’ll wear a Red Sox hat for a week.
Wow – home field advantage in baseball is pretty much nothing – you lose one game and it’s gone. Wow. How ridiculous is that? You win 103 games. You win your division, you win the AL Championship, the AL wins you Home Field Advantage for the WS, and you lose ONE game at home, and you no longer have an advantage.
I have always thought that HFA in baseball is a non-thing. Plus, I always thought getting to pay 3 consecutive games in your home park is a pretty good thing. I would change the WS to be the team with HFA getting to play the first 3 games at home. If you can’t win 2 of 3 at home, then you deserve to lose HFA. 3-2-2. that’s how I’d do it. And I don’t care about revenue. Because it is entirely possible, the way things are set up now, that the team that loses the WS can have more home games, and thus, more revenue.
I’m not assuming Andy is retiring, for one……and though Andy may backslide some from 2009, why should we assume that he’s not going to perform well in the post-season? The Yankees could use another pitcher, they don’t need Doc.
Doreen
November 22nd, 2009 at 2:57 pm
bodhi -
Is there any indication that the Yankees are willing to go to Miranda?
I’d prefer Matsui, as well. He’s definitely shown that he CAN be a real DH, as opposed to a guy who is on his off day trying to hit 4 times in the game, or a guy who should be retired, but they want to squeeze a couple of HRs from him every so often.
I don’t relish a revolving DH. However, I have a feeling that if anyone could make such a scenario work, it would be Joe Girardi. Hopefully, though, they look at other replacement scenarios for Matsui first. (If Matsui goes elsewhere)
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I doubt it, although I’ve been emailing Cashman for the last year and a half on this – not letting Miranda go to some other AL team to torture us in our own park, etc.
Miranda’s problem is he plays no position (not a good 1B either, as you know). In a perfect world, I’d have Matsui back and Miranda as a PH, infrequent 1B, because as I said, he doesn’t need to acquire a DH “mentality” if Matsui has to get his knees drained, or needs a rest. He would seamlessly fill in.
But of course, you can’t carry TWO guys who can’t play the field – Cashman’s wary of one as it is – and I’m sure Joe would want to give our vets the musical DH option when Matsui requires a blow, and they, a break from fielding their position(s).
It’s just always in my mind that there has to be a way to take advantage of Miranda’s big lefty bat.
sadf
November 22nd, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Joba and Hughes both have the talent to become Halladays. Especially Joba.
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Sorry, no. Halladay in his youth when he was pitching poorly demonstrated that he could go deep into games. His second start in the majors was a complete game and he’s at least 1 every year minus one he was injured for part of.
Hughes and Joba have trouble going 6 innings.
James, I would not call acquiring Doc idiotic in any way…….I just wouldn’t do it, not for what the Jays are going to ask. It’s pretty clear from the reports that the Yankees are interested in shoring up their staff…..but they can do that without obtaining Doc. They are looking beyond 2010……
Joba stinks. Trade him
Doreen, I’ve never believed in HFA in baseball. It really comes down to the pitching……HFA means more in football and basketball.
Betsy -
I know you weren’t trying to argue. Sorry if I sounded argumentative.
Halladay was also sent to single A to completely start over………
No, that’s ok Doreen – I’m sorry (and, we were arguing the same thing) for being so defensive.
Betsy,
I base that on what I’ve heard and that Miranda will be a component of the DH spot. They’re gonna spend the money of LF and pitching.
Betsy -
Glad I’m not the only one who sees it for the silliness that it is. (HFA, that is).
That’s because he was injured and even prior to that season he was just as dominant.
I just think that comparing Joba and Hughes to him is overrating them by alot. Halladay is such a rarity in today’s game. He’s pitched 25 complete games, 7 of which are shutouts in the past 3 years in the toughest division in baseball.
Most “normal” players have trouble throwing 1 complete game a season.
and not only is he in the toughest division in baseball….he has to face BOTH the red sox and yankees lineups not just one lol….Mind boggling.
Betsy,
I read that a little different than you(Carfado). I read it to mean that the Yankees are resigned to the fact they would have to give up Joba or Phil if they want Halladay this winter, but they would prefer to find somebody else to include besides Ajax.
I think the Yankees(and Carfado) would agree that if the Jays requested a package of Ajax and assorted spare parts besides Joba and Hughes, they would take that in a second.
Phil, I can’t say I disagree with what the Yankes are doing in the sense that they have to prioritize. I just have doubts about Miranda and I absolutely hate the rotating DH.
Doreen, the way I look at it is that if you are a good team, you will win on the road and not just at home. That’s the nice thing about the Yankees – they have always been a good road team.
Joe from Long Island
November 22nd, 2009 at 3:05 pm
How much major league pitching has Miranda slugged against? Obviously none, so going that route is a bit of a risk. And I can certainly understand the K issue with Adam Dunn – goes against the flow with OBP and all. Still, 40 HRs, 100 RBI, .900 OPS, 144 OPS+ – that ain’t exactly chopped liver. And put his LH bat in YS with Damon’s Deck….just sayin’….
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Oh sure, I get the attraction to Dunn, but he really is Jason Giambi, and I’d prefer to have a guy with lefty power who would be a bit more situational, even if you give away some power (Matsui is a good example).
The reservations about Miranda are understandable, but I have seen enough of him live to make me dismiss them. He’s not in Triple A because he’s a great fielder, lol. He’s always hit where ever he’s been – and he’s not just some big swinger, he can really, really hit.
To go further with Corey’s point..
Last season, he pitched 3 complete games (1 being a shutout) against the Yankees. 2 complete games against Boston (1 being a shutout) and a complete game against the Rays. So 6 of his 9 complete games came against the east. The other 3? Angels, Twins, Royals. So 4 out the 6 teams were in the playoffs.
He pitched under 7 innings 6 times and under 6 innings 2 times.
He could be a 25 game winner on our team.
murphydog – I couldn’t agree with you more about the need for another starter. But, it doesn’t have to be Doc – a recovered Ben Sheets, or Edwin Jackson, Josh Johnson will do going forward.
Betsy – I’ve read where Cash has said that Matsui isn’t a priority. Now, this could be all negotiating, of course. But my concern is that he ain’t getting any younger, and when his knees act up, which they did a couple of times this past season, it affects his hitting. There’s been speculation that he will need, or is at risk of, another surgical procedure. I obviously don’t know. But, between the factors of age and his knees….I don’t see how one can not be concerned going forward.
Im not sold on this Ben Sheets nonsense. Everyone clamored for him last year then he needed surgery. Im not spending my 2010 on Sheets and keeping my fingers crossed he and burnett stay healthy all year.
Corey November 22nd, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Im not sold on this Ben Sheets nonsense. Everyone clamored for him last year then he needed surgery. Im not spending my 2010 on Sheets and keeping my fingers crossed he and burnett stay healthy all year.
Might as well keep Wang instead
E-gawa, no doubt – Doc is a remarkable pitcher. I would never compare any young pitcher to Doc…he’s the best. Even with his struggles in the 2nd half of last year, he still ended up with an under 2.80 ERA
Am I going to have to put “the prospect hugger” at the end of my name again??
Halladay is not needed, esp not for Hughes or chamberlain. Also, add montero to that untouchables list.
If Joba or Hughes is the main piece in a halladay trade how can you not do it Patrick? You’re getting an Ace for a young pitcher who was nothing more than a 1 inning bullpen arm in the postseason.
Joe, I don’t recall Cash saying that Matsui wasn’t a priority.. There’s no question that Matsui’s knees are in terrible shape – he did have to have them drained twice, after all. He’s just such a good and clutch hitter…….it will be hard to replace him (though of course that day would be coming eventually).
Mark, interesting interpretation. If I’m the Yanks and I have to give up Joba or Phil, I don’t give up Jackson. The thing is, I understand the point – the Yankees have few OF prospects (and those are in the lower levels of the minors), so trading AJax would hurt badly.
http://www.waswatching.com/arc.....da_in.html
For those who haven’t got much of a chance to see Miranda, I found this surfing around the net. This was in 2007.
After the quotes from the scouts, I believe a commenter says Miranda can’t hit lefties.
His 2009 numbers vs. lefties: 0.291 0.367 0.507
Patrick
November 22nd, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Am I going to have to put “the prospect hugger” at the end of my name again??
Halladay is not needed, esp not for Hughes or chamberlain. Also, add montero to that untouchables list.
=====
Patrick, I think you need to do it for the greater cause.
Betsy – high on pie
November 22nd, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Ok James……..the Yankees traded garbage for David Cone.
LOL another know-nothing.
Janzen, the prospect the Yankees gave up was very highly regarded at the time, and never amounted to much, hindsight is 20/20 but at the time the prospects the Yankees traded were as well regarded as Joba/Hughes.
and to say Cone struggled the last few years of his career shows you only hopped on the bandwagon around 1999/2000.
The Yankees got 5 solid season out of Cone, he helped bring home 4 WS rings and in 3 of those post seasons was a front line starter, well worth trading for him. Additionally he even went on to have 1 more decent season for Boston in 2001.
My untouchable list is Joba, Montero and Hughes. It would take a combination of the best of the rest of the prospects to make a deal for Halladay.
What about a package of Romine, McAllister, and Austin Jackson? Is that enough? Too much?
As said by many on this board, Boston doesn’t have the pieces to put together a deal for Halladay.
They would have to use Buchholz as a front piece then it drops off considerably. Any of their high end propects have yet to see AA baseball and the deal would strip their farm system.
Toronto will want a replacement for Halladay plus very near ready talent.
If the Jays would take Chamberlain AND Hughes straight up for Halladay, I would pull the trigger.
I mean, not only is Halladay awesome, he’ll make Burnett better.
Of course, we’d have to pick up a couple of solid relievers somewhere, but how hard could that be?
Oh, right.
As said by many on this board, Boston doesn’t have the pieces to put together a deal for Halladay.
They would have to use Buchholz as a front piece then it drops off considerably. Any of their high end propects have yet to see AA baseball and the deal would strip their farm system.
Toronto will want a replacement for Halladay plus very near ready talent.
=====================
What Boston really wants to do is sign Lackey and then use their prospects to throw at the padres for Adrian Gonzalez.
Lester, Beckett, Lackey, Buchholz, Wakefield……Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Gonzalez, Ortiz, Martinez, Drew, Bay, Lowell, Gonzalez/Scutaro…..
they would be revitalized.
https://secure.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200910026969445&c_id=nyy
Imagine this kind of power in our Stadium.
I forgot Dice-K in that rotation.
Toronto has pretty good pitching depth in their system…..If an extenstion is allowed like Schilling gave Theo in 03, then you have to take a real hard look at Doc….If not, revisit him next winter when he’s a FA….This also allows the Yanks to see the strides that Young Master Hughes and a well conditioned Joba will have made in the 2010 season…..There’s a wealth of talent in those 2 arms…..Ben Sheets is a guy to consider for 2010 ….
If Cashman were to consider giving up the prospects Jays reportedly would want, Cashman is smart enough to instead go after Josh Johnson of Marlins (who I believe is a better target anyway). Johnson is under control for 3 more years, and would do a 4 year deal today for $10M per year–he is 25 and an ace…as opposed to spending $23M for 5 years on a 33 year old.
If the Yankees don’t sign/acquire two OF/DH types then mid season they will be making a trade. No way next years OF is Swisher/Melky/Gardner/Jackson. I would sign Damon and either a cheaper Matsui or that Super Utility guy from Bergen Catholic High School whose name escapes me.
Brad, I’m with you on that one. The one thing that Halladay has going for him is that he has a track record of success in the AL, specifically Eastern Div. While, overall, you have to figure NL pitchers haven’t done as well in the ALEast (see Vasquez, Wright, and more recently, Penny and Smoltz) Josh Johnson has been so good, I would really think long and hard about him; check with the scouts, etc.
Hard not to consider a 25 year old talent like that.
I’d prefer they include both Hughes and Chamberlain as part of a package for a 23 year old Felix instead of a 33 year old Halladay.
If Cashman wouldn’t part w/Hughes or Joba for Santana, after winning a WS, what makes ANYONE think he would do it for Halladay – 3 years older – AND pay him $20m +/ per?
Not gonna happen.
I think people have short memories.
So now we’re believing a Boston columnist about the Yankees’ intentions?
In their dreams will the Yankees trade Joba or Hughes for a year of Halliday. Good as he is, he still is 32 and somewhat of an injury risk.
Sox do not have the chips for Halliday, especially since he would go within the division, and the Jays would ask a premium. Wishful thinking by a beat writer of the now irrelevant Sox.
My money says Halliday goes to Dodgers (not sure how they make a deal with ownership in turmoil) or Cubs for one year, and Jays get prospects, or….
Cubs take Wells off their hands as the deal for Halliday–that may actually be a reasonable fit, given that the new owners have deep pockets, and would like to field a winner as quickly as possible. With the Milton Bradley implosion, they need a CF, after all. Halliday would dominate the NL just like CC did, then rake it in in a FA deal in 2011.
All day, referees cheating the Giants and Jets.
New rule in the NFL
Of course, as long as its the Boston team against the NY team, and it goes in favor of the Boston team.
Illegal contact is allowed in the secondary as long as the quarterback has left the pocket.
Never heard it before and never will hear it again, unless it is in the Pats favor.
I don’t know if anyone said this:
Instead of trading a bunch of young players to get Doc, why not just sign lackey and give up nothing…good rotation:
1.CC
2. Lackey
3. AJ
4. Andy
5..whoever..
“If Cashman wouldn’t part w/Hughes or Joba for Santana, after winning a WS, what makes ANYONE think he would do it for Halladay – 3 years older – AND pay him $20m +/ per?
Not gonna happen.
I think people have short memories.”
As I recall, Cash WAS willing to part with Hughes and more for Santana, but the Twins kept upping the asking price (Wang I believe)
“If Cashman wouldn’t part w/Hughes or Joba for Santana, after winning a WS, what makes ANYONE think he would do it for Halladay – 3 years older – AND pay him $20m +/ per?
Not gonna happen.
I think people have short memories.”
As I recall, Cash WAS willing to part with Hughes and more for Santana, but the Twins kept upping the asking price (Wang I believe)
I keep hearing how well the jets are doing covering moss..great..congrats..how about covering welker?
If we give up nothing at all-no money, no players, nothing-we have a good rotation.
Three good pitchers and two young starters who we should figure out a use for already. The organization says they’ll be starters, so start them!
“As I recall, Cash WAS willing to part with Hughes and more for Santana, but the Twins kept upping the asking price (Wang I believe)”
agree which made the trade to mets make no sense…they could have had lester from boston..instead they got carlos gomez..which after watching the playoffs worked out well for the yankees..
Looks like the cheating Patriots and their cheating city were at it again last night.
The Jets were woken up in their hotels in the middle of the night due to a fire alarm.
The Jets suspected foul play, but their worries were put to rest by some nice smelling BS.
The offseason is like a chess game for Brian Cashman. Certain moves must be made before others can be considered.
His 1st priority is what becomes of Damon, Matsui, and bringing Andy back.
Once he knows those answers it opens doors for all other moves.
Stan – exactly. One move dictates another. One step at a time.
Pittsburgh – This is why I think Toronto isn’t going to get the great haul people think they will. The team that does get Doc doesn’t have to have an eye-popping offer, only the best one.
if they are will to part was with Doc and we can keep hughes and jackson… pull the trigger..i like joba but..
Wait till we do it all Over Again November 22nd, 2009 at 5:05 pm
If we give up nothing at all-no money, no players, nothing-we have a good rotation.
Three good pitchers and two young starters who we should figure out a use for already. The organization says they’ll be starters, so start them!
*************************************
immediately brings to mind when kennedy and hughes were given starting jobs out of spring, it was a nice thought, lots of upside, had the “fun to watch young guys develop” thing covered, but it also fell flat on it’s face and left the yankees scrambling. Not to say it would happen again, both Joba and Phil are now more well prepared than kennedy and hughes were at that time, but the possibility exists. Also what are the innings limits on both of their arms, would be hard to think phil threw as many innings as they wanted/planned to have him toss this year. Also means you’re confident in AJ’s and andy’s health. Realistically you have to think the yankees add at least 1 significant arm and a flyer type like sheets, wang, or on the higher end harden
“Now if your talking about trading one of Huges or Joba it better be for King Felix or Josh Johnson. You win WS #28, and then we can have this discussion next year as to whether
to sign Halladay as a FA, to replace Pettitte.”
This.
In a lot of ways, last season’s off season strategy was much easier. Sign, sign and sign. This year is trickier, yes they should re-sign Damon if he’ll take a 2 year deal. I don’t subscribe to the rotating DH idea. I’d rather have Matsui and just sit him more often than this year which would just keep him fresh anyway.
I don’t see them signing Lackey or trading for Roy. I do see them going hard to sign Roy next year. They will need a mid level starter this year, maybe Rich Harden or Joel Piniero.
Unlike last off season when big signings helped assemble a champion, big trades may be the key to the Yankees repeating in 2010.
I’d like to trade for Granderson and either Josh Johnson or Felix Hernandez.
These trades must happen before any of the signings since acquiring Granderson eliminates an immediate desperation to sign Holliday and adding Johnson or Felix gives the Yankees leverage with Pettitte and allows them to avoid a possible bad contract to Lackey.
If either the Granderson or Johnson/Felix deals fall through, the Yankees will have plenty of time to negotiate with Holliday and Lackey. They will be far more desperate but at least time will be in their side since the trade opportunities fell through early.
We will hit the jackpot if we are able to add Granderson and Johnson/Felix via trade.
Since both Johnson and King Felix earn significantly less than Lackey or Halladay, the Yankees can fill LF with Matt Holliday and move Melky to RF and Swisher to DH.
There’d still be money in the bank to ink Andy Pettitte, Rafael Soriano and Aroldis Chapman.
“This is why I think Toronto isn’t going to get the great haul people think they will. The team that does get Doc doesn’t have to have an eye-popping offer, only the best one.”
From what I have read on other baseball-related boards, Blue Jay fans seem to think we HAVE to start the deal off with Montero, or we won’t even get Halladay. Well, they had their chance at the trade deadline, but failed. Since, Halladay seems to want to “move on”, its safe to say the Blue Jays won’t be getting their package they were planning on.
*The front office failed, not the fans.
Trades are for teams with payroll restrictions, I don’t see the Yankees making any big trades. Plus I don’t think any trade would go down prior to Damon and Pettitte negotiations. Then the trick is figuring out on offensive piece and one starter. Done, off season over.
I think realistically King Felix commands Hughes, Joba and change in a deal, maybe along the lines of ajax or montero. I could see the marlins moving johnson cheaper but still not as cheap* as halladay could be had, imo
*-relatively
Jeff NJ,
I don’t think the Yankees will be making Damon a priority. I would hope plan A is Granderson and if they can’t work out a trade for him, try to get Damon on a 1 year deal, then if that falls through, look at Holliday and Bay.
For those espousing the virtues of the 2009 ballclub winning the WS earlier this month, please be advise that will have little impact on whether they can accomplish that same task in 2010 with that same group of players. A change in personnel is coming and I think Cashman recognizes that soon to be fact. With that said, for those like that NY Times writer, who in today’s paper saying the Yankees have to get younger to repeat next season, I have a word of caution for them too. Getting younger is one thing, but those younger players have to be better or as good than those older players you replaced.
I don’t have the slightest idea what Cashman is going to do this offseason. He’s going to try to improve the ballclub, but the big question that remains to be answered is how much of a budget his owners give him for 2010. If he has the same type of budget in 2010 that he had in 2009 then I can see him making some changes in the lineup as well as the pitching staff. IMO, his main priority is to improve the pitching depth. I don’t think he wants Pettitte being his #3 starter in 2010. It bears watching what he does in that regard.
As for the lineup, he has to address the Damon situation because he’s going to need a #2 hitter if Damon is gone. I like Swisher, but he’s not exactly the type of player I want getting 650 at bats in the #2 hole despite his high OBP. I prefer a guy with a little more speed and bat control, who is good at situational hitting.
As far as DH, I don’t think Cashman is going to use that position to rest players like Arod, Jeter and Posada. They’re too valuable getting most of their at-bats while fielding their position. IMO, it’s in the Yankees best interest that Arod plays 140 games in the field with Jeter about 150 games and Posada catching 100 games. Somehow, Cashman is going to get another impact bat besides the one he needs for LF in 2010.
I definitely think Josh Johnson would cost less talent than King Felix.
First of all I wouldn’t give up Hughes, Joba and Montero in a trade for a 20 year old Babe Ruth. Also the problem with trading for King Felix is that Seattle has no intention of trading him. Let Theo worry about making 3 and 4 team deals in a failed attempt to get him, it’s a wasted effort.
My wish list:
Andy Pettitte
Josh Johnson or King Felix
Curtis Granderson
Matt Holliday
Rafael Soriano
Aroldis Chapman
Chien Ming Wang
Reality:
Pettitte
Damon
Matsui
A mediocre mid level starter ala Joel Piniero or Rich Harden.
“I definitely think Josh Johnson would cost less talent than King Felix.”
Let’s remember that the Marlins aren’t going to do the Yankees any favors. They have historically drove a hard bargain when it comes to trading their best players even with the Red Sox.
Jeff NJ,
Ok I guess we can’t chat if we have different wish lists.
Anybody out there have a similar list as mine?
Crawdaddy,
I know that but our farm system is actually LOADED now and we’re in a position to deal unproven talent for YOUNG proven talent that can help us win now and into the future. I think there is too long of a gap between the old guard and the farmhands. What I’m saying is, guys like Mo, Pettitte, Posada and maybe even Jeter will be declined before kids like Hughes, Chamberlain, Jackson, Montero etc. become productive or reach their peaks.
My wish list would put figgins in left, matsui at DH for 1 year, sign Andy and chapman and trade for halladay I guess (assuming Felix and jsh are too pricey)
I’d do a Hughes, Montero, Kennedy package for Felix. At 23 he’d be a difference maker in the rotation for years to come.
Montero won’t be a catcher, and will be blocked by Teixeira at 1B. He might be able to learn LF though.
While Hughes showed life on his fastball out of the bullpen, his stuff as a starter is average. Plus he looked petrified in the playoffs out there, never challenging hitters.
Kennedy will never be more than a back of the rotation guy.
Curt Schilling was 37 when they acquired him – and he helped them two WS after that – just saying – just saying.
Oh – Roy Halladay throws a CUTTER – you know who else throws a cutter – Mariano Rivera – and he’s about to turn 40 and still is effective and the best.
Do this deal – he will still be good in his late 30s and contribute – just as as – wait for it – wait for it – Andy Pettitte.
By they – I mean – Boston.
Patrick -
Why would the Mariners then trade their stud no.1 pitcher – one of the best in baseball and not even in his prime for – as you describe – a hitter who will not be able to stay at catcher thus reducing his value; a starter who is petrified of the playoffs and stuff is average as a starter; and then a back end starter.
WHY??? Think of the other team – you are not dealing with a computer when trading of a video game console.
I am thinking of the other team. The Mariners are going no where next season, with or without Felix. The Angels and Rangers both have much better teams.
They can use Montero at 1B, and if he stays as a catcher all the power to them.
Hughes may be a perfect fit for Seattle, he just doesn’t seem to be bright lights New York material.
And Kennedy gives them a more rotation depth.
They’re already discussing moving Morrow because they know their rotation is non existent and he’s part of the reason why.
Whatever the Yankees do please do NOT trade Jesus Montero.
Phil
People aren’t trading those kind of pitchers anymore. See the Santana deal from two years ago and Santana was 4 years younger than Halladay is. Toronto is thinking pie in the sky if they think they are gonna get anywhere near what they were offered at the deadline. Halladay has already said he won’t resign with them and they have no leverage.
___
This post is spot on. I don’t understand how anyone can disagree with it’s irrefutable logic.
I also want to point out I see zero chance Felix is getting dealt. Not to mention the Yankees have to empty the farm. It just will not happen. What the Yankees need to do is worry about Damon first. Then they can dictate what they do with the rest. If Damon doesnt sign then maybe sign a chone figgins and put him in left. Holliday is way too exspensive even for the Yankees after what they spent last offseason. As for pitching they should look into Halladay obviously but do not give up Montero. I would be willing to deal one of Hughes or Joba if I was Cashman but not both. I think the Yankees have alot of options and Cash just needs to be creative. Let’s not forget they just won it all so it is not dire here.
Actually pitching is a dire need. We went without Wang in the rotation all last year, even though most people forgot about it. So we were missing a number 2/3 in the rotation.
That spot needs to be filled. You can’t be going into next season expecting to be able to do the 3 pitcher formula again. While I think its a mistake to trade for Halladay due to his age and the salary requirement, a front end pitcher is a necessity.
MLB Network has the Orioles/Reds WS – i had forgotten what a great pitcher Jim Palmer was – talk about a fluid delivery!
I agree that they need at least one more front line pitcher – but the current business model is you don’t give up the farm for a pitcher over 30. So I hope they sign Lackey and/or Sheets and “wait till next year” on Doc.
Yanks should offer the Blue Jays a few lower level prospects for both Halladay and Vernon Wells. The jays wouldn’t be able to pass on getting rid of Wells’ contract.
“Yanks should offer the Blue Jays a few lower level prospects for both Halladay and Vernon Wells. The jays wouldn’t be able to pass on getting rid of Wells’ contract.”
Yeesh … no way!!!
No way do the Yankees take on Vernon Wells contract coming off a WS victory … any team that would trade for Halladay at the expense of taking on the albratros that is Vernon Wells contract is an organization that is so desparate for Roy Halladay that they would be willing to destroy any kind of payroll flexibility for the next 3-4 years.
Which is why the Mets would probably do it!!!
Taking Wells with Halladay may be a good idea. Toronto would be very happy to get rid of his contract, so we would be able to get Halladay without selling the farm. Wells is a much better defender than Damon, and would give us a solid bat in the 6 or 7 spot. His offensive numbers the last two years are because of injuries. A healthy Wells would make him almost worth his contract. The big bonus would be getting Halladay for little more than the big contract he would want.
Taylor..”Young Stud Pitcher” Who are you speaking of? Joba or Hughes? Actually, it does not matter b/c neither falls under the category “Young Stud Pitcher”! Now do I think there is potential of them falling under that title? Honestly, I don’t know. The Yankees really messed up Joba and Hughes basically gave everyone a “Woody” during the season and then when we needed him the most…he sucked!!
As I was saying, they both have the TALENT to become Halladays. Do they have the training, the cultivation? Not yet.
It’s up to the Yankees to turn 23 year old Joba into what he could be.