Pujols wins unanimous decision
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Cardinals first baseman Albert Pujols has become the sixth player to win the National League MVP by a unanimous vote. The others are Orlando Cepeda (1967), Mike Schmidt (1980), Jeff Bagwell (1994), Ken Caminiti (1996) and Barry Bonds (2002).
UPDATE, 2:18 p.m.: The top 10 vote-getters (a first-place vote gets 14 points, nine for second, eight for third on down to one for 10th). The full ballot is right here.
1. Albert Pujols – 448 points
2. Hanley Ramirez – 233 points
3. Ryan Howard – 217 points
4. Prince Fielder – 203 points
5. Troy Tulowitzki – 172 points
6. Andre Ethier – 113 points
7. Pablo Sandoval – 89 points
8. Chase Utley – 84 points
9. Derrek Lee – 66 points
10. Matt Kemp — 49 points
Well done by Sam for nailing the MVP winner and the top candidates in a league he doesn’t cover. The guy was 7-for-8 picking these awards.
UPDATE, 2:26 p.m.: What a great bounce-back year for Tulowitzki. The guy’s career was basically left for dead last year when his home run total dropped from 24 to 8, but he came back this year with 32 bombs, 92 RBI and 20 stolen bases. And those Dodgers outfielders are awfully good, aren’t they? That’s a nice combination out in Los Angeles.
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Sam Borden
he deserves it
i sense a 7/210 contract in his future
He is a beast. What a player. Is Arod still the best player?
He should start declining…If hes steroid free. doubt it though.
Anyone else and the BBWAA would have had to be disbanded.
REPOST
He (Nady) does not produce enough at all to be a corner OF or DH on this team.
But Melky does?
And I think you need to look at Nady’s stats:
‘06: 17 HR, 63 RBI, .337 OBP, .280 BA
‘07: 20 HR, 72 RBI, .330 OBP, .278 BA
‘08: 25 HR, 97 RBI, .357 OBP, .300 BA
Take him out of Pitt and in the Yankee lineup in 06 and 07 and those RBI numbers go up.
Congrats to Pujols
Shockingly little love for Utley.
So that makes him the 4th non PED user/player to do it.
Gotta keep track of these things you know.
They’re not gonna put Melky or Nady in a corner OF slot. Disabuse yourselves of this ridiculous notion. They are gonna spend on LF and SP. And they’re not going for average of below in either spot.
Someone thinks Pujols is not the product of science?
“Someone thinks Pujols is not the product of science?”
No more of one than Arod and countless other players.
Squidward? So? The idea that he’s been clean is delusional.
Squidward
November 24th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Shockingly little love for Utley.
************************
His hair scared the voters.
Chip
A while back I asked you about being a guest on my podcast.
My friend and I actually did our first one last week and it wasn’t nearly as unlistenable as we’d expected!!
We basically just talk Yankees/Mets hotstove and Giants/Jets.
I need your email cause the one I lost the one I had in BBB Allstars.
Email me at MichaelPTRS09@yahoo.com
Wouldn’t say that at all Phil. Nothing to support he isn’t. But to me, there isn’t a player in MLB that I’d consider above suspicion.
“His hair scared the voters.”
Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed works….
Since when is Melky a corner OF or DH? And the 06 and 07 numbers of Nady are average like I said.
Nady OPS+
04: 92
05: 104
06: 102
07: 108
08: absolute fluke first of the season with 143 and came back down to earth with the Yankees at 105
Like I said Nady is average. Maybe just a touch above average.
It is utterly embarrassing how little credit Javier Vazquez, Ben Zobrist and Chase Utley got in the voting. They ally should have been in second place for NL CY, AL MVP and NL MVP respectively.
At the very least the BBWA is getting the first place selections correct but after the first place vote-getter their selections are downright laughable.
Congrats to Pujols – and is it possible he used PEDs sure. It’s also possible Jeter did too.
Phucker -
I shot you an email.
Phil –
Who said anything about putting Nady in LF? I think he could be brought back to play RF/DH with Swisher though.
Squidward
November 24th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
“His hair scared the voters.”
Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed works….
*******************
LOL
Meant to say “They all* should have been ….”
Congrats to AP! Well deserved. I can’t even imagine the contract he’d command, but that’s for another day.
And Pujols is the product of science. First you take an egg, then you fertilize it…
Let’s Go Yankees
Nady wouldn’t be asked to hit 30 HR or drive in 120 runs. If the Yankees brought him back he would bat in the bottom third of the order with Swisher and whomever wins the CF job.
Find me a 7 or 8 hole hitter with better numbers than Nady and then you’ve got yourself an argument worth making.
Maybe I view this from an old school point of view, however the 3-4-5 hitters are the heart of the order and right now it’s missing a beat……Maybe they move Cano into the 5 slot, Jorge isn’t the answer…..Miggs in his aggressive way made all very solid points……I thnk Cashman wants to make changes via trades or loss risk / high return signings ( Ben Sheets )…Granderson & Edwin Jackson would be great and certainly a Josh Johnson deal would be most impressive……Let’s see how a well conditioned Joba Chamberlain looks in 2010 and get Young Master Hughes into the mix at some point to spell Pettite in 2011…….Sheets could be the signing of the winter……Still tink Damon is on a fast downward slope
“Squidward? So? The idea that he’s been clean is delusional.”
Delusional?
How about you provide us with something that links him to steroids outside of the “he’s too good to be clean” theory.
Of course I’m open to suggestion – I have no problem bringing back Nady, but then again I have no problem with the Yankees signing Matt Holliday, trading for Brad Hawpe, trading for DeJesus, signing Winn, or any number of other possible alternatives.
There are only three things (position player wise) that I’ve heard that I just don’t agree with at all:
1. Signing Damon to whatever he wants.
2. Bringing back Matsui (love ‘em but think the Yankees want more flexibility at DH)
3. Playing Melky Cabrera in LF
You give me alternatives to those three moves and I’m liable to agree with you 85% of the time.
Nady isn’t good enough to merit a new deal from the Yanks coming off the surgery he’s coming off of. What kind of manager would put a player in his first year off of his second TJS in righfield?
I had to assume that Nady was one of your littany of ideas for LF. He hasn’t the arm for right.
They’re gonna spend dough on LF and SP.
They’re gonna spend dough on LF and SP.
Who?
Holliday and Lackey? I’m fine with that. Give me Holliday in LF, sign Randy Winn for 1 year to DH and bat 2nd…away we go.
You want to tell me Holliday and a reclaimation project pitcher like Ben Sheets? Sounds good to me.
I’ll even take Holliday and bring back Damon to DH.
I do think that the Yankees would like to use stopgap measures to plug LF and the #2 spot in the batting order this year and then go after Carl Crawford next winter – but hey – who knows.
Just thinking of cheaper free agents off the top of my head who would produce more than Nady:
Damon, Cameron, Nick Johnson, Matsui, Dye, Delgado, Marlon Byrd, Vladdy, Thome, etc.
Chip you have lost your freaking mind if you think Randy Winn will could every in a million years DH for the Yankees. He does not even produce enough to DH for the Trenton Thunder
Here’s how some of the BBWA writers have placed the Yankees on their ballots this year:
Jeter
2nd: Tom Verducci (SI), Peter Gammons (Boston), Larry Stone (Seattle), Joe Christensen (Minnesota)
4th: Pete Abe
6th: Ken Rosenthal(Fox), Jon Heyman (SI)
8th: Joel Sherman (NY Post)
9th: Keizo Konishi (Seattle)
10th: Sheldon Ocker (Cleveland)
Teixeira
2nd: Pete Abe, Jon Heyman (SI)
3rd: Tom Verducci (SI), Joe Christensen (Minnesota)
4th: Ken Rosenthal(Fox), Larry Stone (Seattle)
Rodriguez
3rd: Ken Rosenthal (Fox)
5th: Jon Heyman (SI)
9th: Larry Stone (Seattle)
10th: Tom Verducci (SI)
They’re not gonna spend on DH. Not sure which LF they have targeted. Could be Damon, could be Holliday, could be someone else on the right side of 30 who is under the radar.
They are gonna spend on starting pitching. I think they prefer Halladay to Lackey, and expect they will try to get Chapman without giving up a major league deal.
Haha anyone that thinks Mark Teixeira was the second most valuable player in the AL simply doesn’t get it.
Chip,
Randy Winn is a bad hitter. Plain and simple.
Brad Hawpe cannot hit lefties.
Matsui is better than both.
He does not even produce enough to DH for the Trenton Thunder
Depends on what you need your DH to do. Yes, most DHs are middle of the order sluggers but if the Yankees signed Matt Holliday that’s not what they would need. They would need a number 2 hitter to replace Damon. If that person happens to play DH – what difference does it make?
Looking at your list of “cheaper free agents” Damon, Cameron, Nick Johnson, Matsui, Dye, Delgado, Marlon Byrd, Vladdy, Thome, etc.
Well Damon and Matsui certainly won’t be cheaper – nor for that matter will Nick Johnson or probably Vlad either.
Nady’s coming off a lost year – he’s probably going to have to sign an incentive laden contract to prove he’s ready to go. Maybe Dye or Delgado come in at roughly the same price, but I doubt it. And Marlon Byrd is certainly an option, though if you don’t think Nady has the stats to warrant playing a corner spot or DH everyday for the Yankees then why the heck do you think Byrd does?
Phil may be right and I have to acknowledge that Holliday has to be a candidate for LF. But I also FEEL that Crawford is a better candidate next year when he’s a FA. Either just costs money, but if Holliday is obtained, then there is no need for Crawford next year.
That’s the reasoning behind my views that Damon or Nady for 1 year in LF and/or as DH is acceptable. Sure Nady is coming off an injury, but he’s not a pitcher, and doesn’t need the velocity that a pitcher does, just greater range. Did I say range? Who’s our current LF? What arm strength does he have? Couldn’t be worse.
I also FEEL that Austin Jackson stands a good chance of making the team, either out of ST or later in the year, but whichever, he’ll be up on the team for the stretch run. That makes him likely to be in the OF mix as well, unless of course he’s traded now or later – like for a Crawford. OF course, either Melky or Gardner could be included or substituted in that trade, and I’d do it in a heartbeat.
Patrick
Yes, Matsui is better against lefties than Hawpe, but two things:
1. Matsui is 6 years older than Hawpe
2. Hawpe, unlike Matsui, has never missed significant time due to injury.
Matsui’s a fantastic hitter against LH pitching for a lefty, no one is going to measure up to him in that regard. But I just don’t think he’s coming back – I think the Yankees want to get younger and want a DH who can play the field without falling apart – that’s not Hideki.
Cash as much as said Matsui is gone by saying that he wants to get more flexible at the DH spot and that the post season wasn’t going to influence his decision making.
As for Winn – he had a bad year, no question about it – but look at the year before that. The Yankees love switch hitters and if you take Winn and slot him between Derek and Tex I think you’ve got a perfect number two hitter.
Why cause Crawford’s a speed player with limited pop who will lose his speed? Holliday’s better than Crawford.
As it stands we need a 2 and a 5 hitter. Now I don’t really believe in batting slot types and I think your best hitters should get the most ab’s. Anyway we need two good hitters probably 1 from the outside and Miranda and what we already have will make up the DH.
Randy Winn’s OBP last year was .318. His OPS+ was 75. How do you plug that in any spot in your lineup? In the AL East Randy Winn is nothing more than a AAA player right now. Almost every guy in Scranton last year could have done that or better.
Keep in mind when guessing what the Yanks will do this off-season that the current basic agreement expires in 2011.
I wonder how anxious the Yanks will be to lock themselves into any more expensive, long term contracts until they have a better idea where the luxury tax is headed and how revenue sharing will be addressed (will the current deduction for construction bond debt service be kept?) in the new agreement.
I have to acknowledge that Holliday has to be a candidate for LF. But I also FEEL that Crawford is a better candidate next year when he’s a FA.
A couple of things:
1. I’ve said this before – but if we get around Christmas time and Holliday hasn’t signed and the bidding for him isn’t outlandish (say something in the range of Carlos Lee’s contract with Houston) I could see Brian jumping into the mix with a one time “here it is, take it or leave it” deal like he did with Tex.
2. Yes, Crawford is an attractive option, but we really have no idea if he’s even going to hit the free agent market. A ton of things could happen between now and then. Tampa could get blown away with an offer for him and deal him to a team that locks him up to a long term deal, he could blow out his knee, he could decide to sign a new deal in Tampa…Cash took a risk passing on Johan figuring that CC would be available the following winter, I’m not so sure you keep toying with the fates like that.
“1. Matsui is 6 years older than Hawpe
2. Hawpe, unlike Matsui, has never missed significant time due to injury.”
What difference does age make at this point? Both are one year alternatives. Matsui will probably retire and Hawpe’s an FA after next year. Matsui can survive a season just DH’ing and give you 500-600 PA’s.
“The Yankees love switch hitters and if you take Winn and slot him between Derek and Tex I think you’ve got a perfect number two hitter”
Perfect? You mean except for not being nearly as good as his predecessor?
Patrick-
I think anyone who picked Teixeira 2nd for AL MVP got it exactly right.
You do not look at the year before when a guy is 35. You look at the last year. Randy Winn is done. If the Giants who have no offense do not want him, the Yankees certainly do not. Again at this stage of his career Winn is a AAA player
“As for Winn – he had a bad year, no question about it – but look at the year before that.”
I did, he OPS’d .790 as a corner outfielder. That’s simply not good.
“I think anyone who picked Teixeira 2nd for AL MVP got it exactly right.”
Ben Zobrist, Zach Greinke, Derek Jeter were all more valuable. Maybe Evan Longoria. I’d put Tex at 5th or 6th.
“1. Matsui is 6 years older than Hawpe”
I would make that as an argument against Hawpe. At his age, or youth, he will be looking for a longer term deal; but he is not nearly the caliber of player to commit more than a couple of years.
DaSaint007,
I wouldn’t be so sure about Crawford and FA. If he is out there, I would love to have him, but I think Tampa Bay will choose him to be the guy they pay. I would expect them to sign him to an extension by the end of ST, I will be shocked if they haven’t by the trade deadline.
If NY signed Holliday to patrol left, that doesnt mean they would be out of the running for Crawford if he hit the market in 2010. They could always package Swisher and Melky or something for a CF and then move Holliday to RF and put Carl in LF
I just want to know who gave Jeremy Affeldt a top ten vote???
“I could see Brian jumping into the mix with a one time “here it is, take it or leave it” deal like he did with Tex”
This is a myth. Yankees and Teixeira were talking nearly a month before he signed. Teix and Boras met with Cash in early Dec. That only went on as long as it did so Boras could use Boston to get the Yankees up to the number they were looking for.
Randy Winn’s OBP last year was .318. His OPS+ was 75
Yes, and his OBP the year before was .363 with an OPS+ of 105.
So how about instead of using small sample sizes we look at his career numbers (OBP of .344 OPS+ of 99) and realize that “hey, that’s pretty darn close to Johnny Damon’s career numbers of .355 and 105.”
Or we can go your way and base decisions on 1 extreme season.
Randy Winn’s OBP last year was .318. His OPS+ was 75. How do you plug that in any spot in your lineup? In the AL East Randy Winn is nothing more than a AAA player right now. Almost every guy in Scranton last year could have done that or better.
_______________________
Freddy Guzman or Gardner or Bubba Crosby -esque
For the people that do not know Chip’s thinking, if a guy has a little bit of speed and is a lefty he will automatically be good if he is hitting between Jetes and Tex. It does not matter where you hit in the lineup if you suck like Randy Winn.
Winn sucks, Nady is average, guys like Kennedy you mentioned before suck, Hawpe is no more useful in the field than Matsui is and can not hit lefties, and so on and so forth.
None of these guys are remotely viable options. You seem to be on a mission to make this team much worse offensively.
Hawpe’s an FA after next year.
Hawpe has an option for 2011.
‘Haha anyone that thinks Mark Teixeira was the second most valuable player in the AL simply doesn’t get it.”
Maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t, but I don’t think putting down anybody who sees him as 2nd is right. Anybody who ties for his league lead in HRs, leads his league in RBIs, plays Gold Glove defense and Silver Slugger offense, is a legit candidate.
Ok Chip I’ll play your game. Here’s what I want the Yankees to do.
Sign Andy Pettitte.
Fill the DH with Hideki Matsui. He can still hit and he’s a perfect DH since he does well against lefties and righties.
There are a number of ways I’d be happy with filling the LF spot. Here are a few in no order of preference:
1. Sign Damon to a 1 or 2 year deal
2. Trade for Milton Bradley
3. Sign Holliday to a 5 or fewer year deal
4. Trade for Granderson and move Melky to LF
5. Sign Cameron and maybe also Damon to 1-2 year deals
After LF is filled I’d be open to trying to trade for someone like Josh Johnson, but I do not want Halladay.
“Hawpe has an option for 2011.”
Not if he’s traded.
Why does anyone want Milton Bradley? I dont get it….I’ve seen more Milton Bradley proposals and more Matt Holliday hate. It makes no sense to me.
There is no such thing as one extreme season at age 35. When you hit that age career stats and even 2-3 year trends are thrown out the window. These guys fall off a cliff suddenly at that age.
Randy Winn has fallen off that cliff, been buried, and eaten by a pack of wolves by now.
Damon OPS+ last year was 126. Not even remotely close to Winn in what you expect next year.
Hawpe has an option for 2011.
–
Voided if traded
Did Verducci co-write his votes with Joe Torre? Which one was mis-quoted?
Why does anyone want Milton Bradley? I dont get it….I’ve seen more Milton Bradley proposals and more Matt Holliday hate. It makes no sense to me.
–
Bradley is cheaper and just as good offensively and would only be under contract for 2 more years. And he could be had for cheap since the Cubs pretty much have to dump him.
The only arguments against bradley are based on his mental state and his penchant for injuries.
If money isnt an issue to NY (and it usually isnt)….Matt Holliday is NY’s best LF option, period.
I think they would regret not getting Matty boy if Mauer re-signs with the Twinkies and Carl re-signs with the Rays. You bring Matsui back to play DH for 1 year and plug in Holliday behind Sui…..thats a modern day murderers row…..Tex, Arod, Matsui, Holliday, Posada, Cano….
““Hawpe has an option for 2011.”
Not if he’s traded.”
Let’s be precise. It’s a team option for 2011, which Hawpe can void if he’s traded, but he doesn’t have to. But do you actually think Hawpe would reject be paid $10MM in 2011, and do actually think teams would exercise the option? Count me as dubious on both counts.
Phil, you’ve piqued my curiosity as you’ve mentioned this twice now. Why do you feel Miranda will get a shot as DH?
And yes, Crawford is a speed player, is a plus defender, has a plus arm, and steals plus bases. Sure he’ll lose it, but you’ll probably lose your hair too. He’s only 28 when he becomes a FA.
“Yes, and his OBP the year before was .363 with an OPS+ of 105.
So how about instead of using small sample sizes we look at his career numbers (OBP of .344 OPS+ of 99) and realize that “hey, that’s pretty darn close to Johnny Damon’s career numbers of .355 and 105.” ”
Uhh an OBP of .363 with an OPS+ of 105 is still pretty bad for a corner OF. Keep in mind you are trying to replace Damon’s production here. Here are his last 2 years:
2008: .303/.375/.461 OPS+ of 118
2009: .282/.365/.489 OPS+ of 126
Damon is a solidly above average hitter and that’s in the American League. Randy Winn is average at best and the same age as Damon. Considering his down year this year, it is very likely that he has begun to decline.
Bottom line, Randy Winn is not a very good player and will never play LF on the Yankees unless it’s in a bench role.
For the people that do not know Chip’s thinking, if a guy has a little bit of speed and is a lefty he will automatically be good if he is hitting between Jetes and Tex.
Not true – I want no part of Brett Gardner in that spot for example.
How about instead of you telling people what I am thinking I do it instead?
What I want out of the #2 Hitter – in no particular order
1. Speed. Doesn’t have to be blazing fast but someone who can score on an extra base hit from first.
2. Good Eye. Someone who is going to work a count to either give Jeter a chance to steal a base, can be trusted to hit and run with, and will let the guys coming up after him see what the pitcher has
3. Situational hitter. This is why someone like Cano or Swisher doesn’t qualify – Cano doesn’t have the baseball IQ for this spot in the order and Swisher, while a great on base guy, makes too many wasted outs. A veteran who can pull the ball through the hole, can fight off an outside pitch, or will simply advance the runner to third with less than two outs.
4. Line drive power. Damon’s power was a plus but if I can get 15 HR from this spot I’m fine with it.
That’s it – a switch hitter would be nice but is not a requirement.
“Anybody who ties for his league lead in HRs, leads his league in RBIs, plays Gold Glove defense and Silver Slugger offense, is a legit candidate.”
Can’t speak for Patrick, but I think he might be saying that monster offense from positions like catcher and 2B are more valuable than the same from 1B. Teixeira had a great year, but he was really only marginally better than several other 1B’s such as Morales, Youkilis, Morneau and Cabrera. I don’t have much of a problem with him being 2nd, but relative to their positions, others are probably more valuable.
LOL Jeter 8th, 9th and 10th? Those writers need to get a clue
Patrick, the idea that Ben Zobrist, on a 3rd place team, should finish ahead of Jeter is silly. I think Jeter should have finished ahead of Tex, but there is nothing laughable about Tex finishing 2nd.
You can not make plans for 2011 based on what a player who is not currently a FA may due. Come on – Crawford may not even be available next year (I expect the Rays will lock him up at some point). Not only that, how do we know he even wants to play for the Yankees? No thanks – the Yankees need to make moves now, not wait until 2011. Nady? I like the guy, but I am completely uninterested in him. TJ surgery twice for a non-pitcher? That tells you how bad his arm is. He’s not even a great hitter – he’s ok.
Phil, do you think the Yanks are going to after another pitcher besides Andy (not counting Chapman, who won’t obviously start this year)? I really don’t want Lackey. It has to mean something when the Angels, his own team, aren’t making an overly aggressive move to sign him. I don’t think he wants to come to NY and I just don’t want him.
Randy Winn became a baseball irrelevant when the 100+ loss Devil Rays gave up on him in his prime!
The only league Milton Bradley might ever star in will be a State Correctional Facility softball league.
Let’s at least talk about sensible possibilities. No, that does not include David Dejesus batting second for the New York Yankees or Robinson Cano being traded. Is this the Bizarro Blog?
Keep in mind you are trying to replace Damon’s production here.
You’re getting caught up in Damon’s power. The power he provided out of both the leadoff spot earlier in his career and the 2 spot last year were bonuses.
In suggesting Winn I’m not saying “woohoo Randy Winn’s available, hell with Damon let’s go get this guy.”
What I’m saying is that if Damon wants and holds out for 3 years or more – I think Randy Winn (on a 1 year deal) could be a fine replacement for Damon in that spot in the batting order.
Is he as good as Damon? NO. Is he good enough to get the job done? In my opinion yes he is.
Phil, do you think the Yanks are going to after another pitcher besides Andy (not counting Chapman, who won’t obviously start this year)? I really don’t want Lackey. It has to mean something when the Angels, his own team, aren’t making an overly aggressive move to sign him. I don’t think he wants to come to NY and I just don’t want him.
=======================
Well….They had to worry about Abreu, Figgins, Vladimir & Lackey….Lackey clearly being the most expensive and probably on the back burner for the moment. Doesnt mean they didnt want him back…..but if you spend for lackey and then Abreu/Figgins go elsewhere because you’re so focused on lackey it really depletes their offensive smallball way of play.
You can not make plans for 2011 based on what a player who is not currently a FA may due.
That’s exactly what Cashman did when he bypassed Santana to await CC in Free Agency Betsy. It’s been done before, and it happens all the time.
Phil, I hope not; I don’t want Miranda anywhere near the DH.
Also, when did Jorge become such a lousy hitter? Last year, people were bemoaning the fact that his absence probably cost us a playoff spot. Now he’s not good enough to hit 5th or wherever. I don’t get it. I also completely disagree with Cano in the 5th spot. He’s a 6th or lower hitter thanks to his idiosyncrasies. He should be much better than that, but woulda coulda shoulda…….that’s not reality.
There is no such thing as one extreme season at age 35. When you hit that age career stats and even 2-3 year trends are thrown out the window.
So what you’re saying is that a player of that age can’t rebound?
So for example a pitcher who at 38 puts up just horrific numbers – say an ERA in the 5’s, low IP totals (based on his previous seasons) is cooked and incapable of coming back the next year and winning 20 games while pitching to an ERA of 3.37?
I would not believe the astute baseball front office in NY would touch Randy Winn and view him as Damon’s replacement. What a pain in the butt it is to pitch to Damon and always has been . What a proven performer on the big stage.
If the Yanks can’t sign Damon and Matsui to reasonable short term deals they should sign Mike Cameron and make a deal with the Nationals for Adam Dunn.
“I did, he OPS’d .790 as a corner outfielder. That’s simply not good.”
Then how is Milton Bradley, the crappy fielding,oft-injured, total mental case, with his 2009 OPS of .775/.820 lifetime, your # 2 option for LF?
According to the Los Angeles Times, the Angels are still unwilling to deal Aybar, who hit .312 with 58 RBI, while playing solid defence, but are expecting the any deal to start with a young starter, either Jared Weaver, Joe Saunders or Ervin Santana. From TSN.Ca on Halladay
If the Yanks can’t sign Damon and Matsui to reasonable short term deals they should sign Mike Cameron and make a deal with the Nationals for Adam Dunn.
=========================
and lead the league in strikeouts. Great Idea.
Damon OPS+ last year was 126. Not even remotely close to Winn in what you expect next year.
I really do wish you would learn to read. I am not (nor have I ever) said dump Damon because the Yankees can get Winn.
My argument for Winn (or DeJesus for that matter) is that I would rather invest in Winn for 1 year or trade for a younger player in DeJesus than invest 3 years and big money in Johnny Damon.
So take Damon out of it entirely…Damon’s not available…he has gone and signed with another team.
Instead of telling me that Randy Winn and David DeJesus are awful compared to Damon; find me a number two hitter on the market (either trade or FA) who fits the criteria listed above.
Chip, pitchers are much much different than hitters as they can reinvent themselves. And even still maybe 1% of pitchers at that age have been able to do that. Maybe Winn can bounce back next year, but history tells us that it is a pretty much guarantee he will not.
Fact of the matter is that Randy Winn was the worst offensive OF in all of baseball last year with enough PA. There is maybe a .000001% chance he can bounce back from that.
“and lead the league in strikeouts.”
And home runs. By a lot.
Sorry but if Damon isnt coming back, you gotta give a hard look at Holliday. This randy winn stuff is nonsense…..and there’s no guarantee Crawford doesn’t get a contract extension in TB.
“Now he’s not good enough to hit 5th or wherever”
He fared pretty poorly in the 5 hole last year with a .177 average and .614 OPS in 127 PA’s. Hitting 6th, he hit .310 with a .965 OPS in twice as many PA’s. Career-wise, his #’s as a 5 hitter are not awful by any stretch, but he’s about 100 points better OPS-wise hitting 6th.
I’m hearing that the ‘Stros are lloking to get cheaper and are open to moving either Lee or Berkman as both guys are signed to 2yrs/30mil….
either guy could make a lot of sense for us as they both could DH and play LF,hit for power and average,protect ARod and drive in runs…
I like Berkman a lil more though as he could also play some 1b and provide insurance in case of an injury to Tex and he still runs and provides another switch bat.
Jeet
Cano
Tex
ARod
Berkman
Posada
Ankiel-RF
Melky/Gardner-LF
Ajax-CF
in this proposal I’ve traded Swish/IPk and a bullpen arm for Berk and signed Ankiel and promoted Austin. By doing this i’ve got great outfield speed and defense,Ankiel’s upside is better than Swish or at the minimum replaces his power production(I make him Long’s personal project .280/30/100/.350obp) and the combo of Berkman/Gardy/Melky/Miranda(can dh when Berk plays in LF) gives me an upgrade in production to Damon/Matsui/Melk and there is no pressure on Austin to “produce” just catch everything he can .
For roughly $20mil i get Berk-14.5mil/Ank-5mil which i like a lot better than Damon 10-12mil and Matsui 8-9mil….
thoughts on Berkman?
Sal -
I also don’t believe that the astute people in NY’s front office will give Damon anywhere close to the contract he’s looking for. Someone’s gotta replace him. Who?
Sure, they could sign Matt Holliday and that would certainly take care of LF – but Holliday’s a 5th place hitter on this team. Who bats second?
Cano – poor baseball IQ and poorer OBP
Swisher – Good OBP but far too many non-productive outs.
“and lead the league in strikeouts.”
And home runs. By a lot.
=================
I thought we learned that having a bunch of sluggers doesnt win championships over the past 8 years? Theres no situational hitting with those guys….they either go yard or kill rallies.
Wave Your Hat,
Come on now. Dunn and Cameron in the same lineup? We are looking at 325-350 Ks if they play full seasons. RISP was one of the Yankee problems this year. Dunn is a career .249 hitter, but .232 with RISP. He hits 40+ HRs almost every year, but even with that, struggles to crack 100 RBIs. Cameron is .250 career. We would have a lot angry Yankee fans if either was a Yankee regular, let alone both. That does not make us better.
Let me post this on its own so this stands out
With players with a minimum of 500 PA there were only 7 players in all of baseball worse offensively than Randy Winn.
Of Outfielders Randy Winn was the worst in ALL OF BASEBALL.
“I thought we learned that having a bunch of sluggers doesnt win championships over the past 8 years? Theres no situational hitting with those guys….they either go yard or kill rallies.”
Wrong, very wrong, as applied to Cameron and Dunn.
Who did Sherman rank 2-7 if he had Jeter 8th and Tex not even in the top 10?
Heyman put Alex ahead of Derek, Rosenthal put Alex ahead of Derek and Mark.
Verducci gave Alex a 10th place vote as a thank you for helping his bank account grow?
DaSaint,
Cause that’s what I was told. They’re gonna save money on the DH slot by using Miranda and guys rotating.
Wave Your Hat,
Keep thinking that. Glad you’re not the GM. Holliday makes alot more sense if Damon and Matsui werent to return than trading prospects for Dunn and blowing money on Cameron for a buttload of strikeouts.
Maybe Winn can bounce back next year, but history tells us that it is a pretty much guarantee he will not.
As I’ve said. You have done a wonderful job repeating time after time that you think Randy Winn is awful. Give me an alternative not named Johnny Damon.
I’m all for Mike Cameron if he’s replacing Melkys bat in the 9 hole for a year til a better option comes along…..but Im not okay with him replacing Damon.
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
November 24th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Let me post this on its own so this stands out
With players with a minimum of 500 PA there were only 7 players in all of baseball worse offensively than Randy Winn.
Of Outfielders Randy Winn was the worst in ALL OF BASEBALL.
——————-
I’m glad to hear that – two years ago Nick Swisher had the lowest BA of all players who qualified, the Yankees still went out and traded for him.
Who are you replacing Damon with in the 2 spot in the batting order?
Mark in Tampa-
Both walk a lot, like Swish, but they aren’t as susceptible to the slumps.
Cameron would be great defensively, and Dunn wouldn’t have to play the field.
Sure, lots of KO’s, but lots and lots of walks and HR’s. Plus Cameron hammers lefties, and Dunn righties.
Just a thought.
An alternative to Damon that is better than Randy Winn is any other OF in all of baseball.
Corey -
I agree with you on Cameron – way too many strikeouts to bat in the 2 spot.
I would be stunned if the Yankees acquired Bradley. How many times have we heard how chemistry and a team of good guys that got along was the key this year? Bradley has done nothing but cause trouble wherever he has been. No way. Not happening. I’m not sure of much of what will and will not be done, but of this I feel certain.
Swisher was also in his mid-20s and I am not talking about BA. I am talking overall offensively. A comparison of the two is ridiculous
An alternative to Damon that is better than Randy Winn is any other OF in all of baseball.
Pick one.
One OF who is available right now either as a FA or via trade (and if you’re pulling a trade what are you giving up) who you would like in the 2 spot of the batting order for next year.
You bring Matsui back to play DH for 1 year and plug in Holliday behind Sui…..thats a modern day murderers row…..Tex, Arod, Matsui, Holliday, Posada, Cano….
——-
If you do that then who bats second? You would have to hit Cano or Swish 2nd. Assuming it was Cano then the line up would be Jeter, Cano, Tex, Arod, Matsui, Holliday, Posada, Swisher, Melky/Ajax. With this line up you could flip flop Matsui and Holliday against Lefties and Righties if you wanted to protect Arod more. Cano would get better pitches to hit which god knows he needs but he has to be more disciplined at the plate.
The only alternative to Damon out there this offseason in free agency for the 2 hole is Chone Figgins in my eyes….other than that I want Damon back.
Randy Winn? Why not just sign Tony Womack !
YankeeRay
November 24th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
You bring Matsui back to play DH for 1 year and plug in Holliday behind Sui…..thats a modern day murderers row…..Tex, Arod, Matsui, Holliday, Posada, Cano….
——-
If you do that then who bats second? You would have to hit Cano or Swish 2nd. Assuming it was Cano then the line up would be Jeter, Cano, Tex, Arod, Matsui, Holliday, Posada, Swisher, Melky/Ajax. With this line up you could flip flop Matsui and Holliday against Lefties and Righties if you wanted to protect Arod more. Cano would get better pitches to hit which god knows he needs but he has to be more disciplined at the plate.
—-
I’d rather have Damon in the 2 hole giving us more defensive flexibility.
Chip, I think I would let the Randy Winn idea die. He is aging and this year could well be the sign of things to come. I wouldn’t chance it. Otherwise, I agree with many of your thoughts.
Damon will bolt,he always leaves teams when he’s a free agent.
This team won’t be any different.
At his age ,he’s a mercenary.Besides can you really trust he wants to stay?
He did write in his book (while a redsawx)that he would *Never* play for the Yankees didn’t he?
“Cano – poor baseball IQ and poorer OBP”
He could use some work on his understanding of game situations from time to time, but his OBP is not as bad as it is often made out to be. Take out his dreadful ‘08 of .305, and he averages around .355 OBP. There were about 70 players in the majors last year who were better than that. That is about 2 per team. It isn’t like he is the worst player in baseball for OBP. Not everybody can be a .400 OBP hitter.
Swisher was also in his mid-20s and I am not talking about BA. I am talking overall offensively. A comparison of the two is ridiculous
No it isn’t.
Low BA means a lot of wasted outs which generally means a lot of strikeouts – not good if you’re trying to generate runs. Especially when you’re giving him 21 mil over three years.
Still waiting for an answer…
The only thing Winn accomplishes is getting worse at the position we sign him for. I’d rather have Holliday for 5 years.
No one should count on Cano moving up to 2 or the 5 hole. He’s proven many times in his career when you take him out of the 6-7-8 hole he struggles.
The Yankees would have moved him up years ago if he could hold down one of those spots.
Low BA means a lot of wasted outs which generally means a lot of strikeouts – not good if you’re trying to generate runs. Especially when you’re giving him 21 mil over three years.
–
Even in his worst year Swisher had a better OBP than Winn last year and only 10 points off Winns career line. So even at his worst, when you look at all his plate appearances, he made less outs than Winn
Phil
your logic against Crawford is so flawed that is funny…you’re assuming that he will “lose” his speed…when exactly is that going to happen? next year? how can you suggest we bring a 37yr old Damon back because of his speed(although he only stole 9 bags last yr) but Crawford’s a bad sign at 30(60 sbs last year) to a 5yr deal because he’ll lose his speed! C’mon..
And as for his lack o power for all of you guys who don’t know if Damon signs with anybody but the Yanks or the RedSux(pesky pole) he’ll revert back to the 12 homer toad that he’s been his whole career. That’s to say that ANY LH Hitter with average pull pop in his bat will see his home #’s spike dramatically playing in our stadium and hitting in front of Tex and ARod. I would imagine that Crawford who happened to be the best LF’er in baseball this season would enjoy that advantage also and probably hit 20hrs in our lineup next season
I feel as though this offseason is a good one to trade swisher in a package if you’re gonna do something to try and fill the 2 spot if damon isnt returning.
I’ve seen Miranda play in the minors and who could forget his 460 foot HR vs Tampa. His power is awesome, but he has 19 career ML ABs. He has one more option for AAA (read that on RAB), so maybe at some point he gets a shot to work his way into the 2010 lineup as DH or part-time DH. But no way a WS Championship team goes into the season planning on Miranda to be it’s DH. You don’t replace a professional hitter like Matsui with a guy who has 19 ABs.
He is aging and this year could well be the sign of things to come.
I’m not suggesting giving him a 10 year 100 mil contract.
1 year, $3-5 mil – pocket change to the Yankees. If he flops, he flops, so be it.
Frankly I would rather deal for David DeJesus myself. But barring that, and assuming Damon holds out – I’m still waiting for alternatives that don’t s*ck as much or worse than Winn.
Chip it is ridiculous. Winn was the worst OF in all of baseball last year. One of the worst players in all of the MLB. 2 years ago just because Swisher’s BA was low he was not even close to the worst offensive producers in baseball. His OPS+ was still almost 20 points higher than Winn.
Like I said. If Damon leaves give me any other OF in all of baseball over Randy Winn. Anyone from Matt Holliday on down to Melky in the 2 hole.
“Low BA means a lot of wasted outs which generally means a lot of strikeouts – not good if you’re trying to generate runs.”
This argument is antediluvian. Haven’t you ever heard of OBP? You can make an argument that a high strikeout rate is a negative in sequential offense but it pales in comparison to the benefits of a high OBP, with or without strikeouts.
“Both walk a lot, like Swish, but they aren’t as susceptible to the slumps.
Cameron would be great defensively, and Dunn wouldn’t have to play the field.
Sure, lots of KO’s, but lots and lots of walks and HR’s. Plus Cameron hammers lefties, and Dunn righties.
Just a thought.”
Aren’t susceptible to slumps? They have both spent their entire career in a slump! Cano hit .271 last year, more than 20 points higher than their career averages, and everybody was ready to drive him out of town themselves. Cameron would be better than we have had defensively, but he hasn’t been great for several years.
Jerkface -
I have no problem with Holliday – none at all – but signing him doesn’t remove the need for a number 2 hitter if Damon walks.
You can grossly overpay for Chone Figgins I suppose.
Scott Podsednik? Ok, but a couple of years ago he was just as horrible as Winn was last year and he doesn’t hit lefties well.
Mike Cameron? Strikes out far too much.
Anyway – I’m out for the day – to those of you who won’t be online tomorrow – have a Happy Thanksgiving.
Starin’ to sound like you can cross Joe Mauer off of your NYY 2011 Christmas Wish Lists.
That’s OK, if we can’t have him I’d rather he played his entire career in MIN
It woulda been really funny if that guy from Seattle entered a 1st place vote for Miguel Cabrera in the NL MVP ballot too.
Wonder how much that vote cost Cabrera. Does he get a bonus for a 1st pace vote?
Either that, or the guy who voted for him didn’t like Mauer (or anyone else) personally, or he placed that vote under duress or with some unseen humorous slant.
Or, somehow he considered the impact of Cabrera at his worst and extracted an interpretation ‘value’ from that. Sort of like when a guy like Osama Bin Laden wins Time Magazine’s ‘Man of the Year’ award.
“Patrick, the idea that Ben Zobrist, on a 3rd place team, should finish ahead of Jeter is silly. I think Jeter should have finished ahead of Tex, but there is nothing laughable about Tex finishing 2nd. ”
Betsy,
It’s unfair to look at Zobrist’s team and where they finished when evaluating his value. When you look at how he hit, his fielding and adjust for position he is one of the top 5 productive players in the AL for 2009. Depending on how you weight things, he could be as good as the second most valuable player in the league. Specifically, look at WAR.
Also depending on your interpretation of the award, if you include pitchers, Zach Greinke is also one of the top 5 most valuable players in the league. Some people have him valued even more than Joe Mauer.
Think about the times the Yankees have faced hitters like Dunn, Cameron, etc. The guys who hit HRs, but K a ton, and bat @250 or less.
Do you ever fear them against good pitching? No, you only fear them against Sidney Ponson, Mitre, Bad Joba, the mediocre to bad pitchers. Would you have any faith in either of them ever getting a hit, or having a productive AB against Beckett, Papelbon, or Lester? I wouldn’t either.
“This argument is antediluvian. ”
Impressive
Early Post headline prediction if we sign Holliday and trade for Halliday on the same day.
” HOL/HAL of ADAY “
Mark in Tampa, that is your biased view on the subject. Is there anything to back up your perception of those players?
anyone ever think of throwing swisher in the package for Halladay and throwing Figgins in RF? I think figgs could handle RF and would fill out the 2 hole if damon were to leave. Idk, I just like throwing random ideas out there
Chip, it’s been great chatting with ya, but forget Randy Winn.
Betsy
regarding your opinion that you can’t strategize about 2011 FA’s and Crawford….that’s exactly the strategy that Cash employed that resulted in CC in pinstripes and Johan in Queens.
in order to effectively do his job Cash has to make those exact kinds of reads.
In the example of Crawford his agents know that if he were a FA today he would command a 5yr/75mil contract.
We all know that the Rays can not/will not pay that $ to him hence very very likely he’s on the market next year looking for a check.
As far as a team trading for him then locking him up prior to…who? Look at the landscape of the game right now the majority of teams are looking to move big $ contracts for cheap players and very few have big $ to sign players as Holliday,Bay and Lackey will soon find out. Cash knows this better than us because he talks to the other GMs and knows the internal state of franchises. He’s also in the unique position of running the richest team in the sport an everybody-agents,players,rival gms-knows that he can always write the check if he wants.
I highly doubt that Crawford’s agents would let him leave 25-30mil in hometown discount on the table to resign with the Rays knowing that Yankee $ will be out there in 1yr…
I agree about moving Swish in a package to upgrade me…classic buy low(Marquez and Betimit) and sell high strategy
how about Swish/IPK and Whelan/Duff for Berkman
“that is your biased view on the subject. Is there anything to back up your perception of those players?”
Are you talking about Cameron and Dunn?
Dunn-His full season stikeout LOW is 165! He has K’ed 190+ twice. Even though his full-season low for HRs the last 6 years is 38, his RBI high is 106. That is not leaving a lot of RBIs on ABs other than home runs. He is a career .249 hitter, with a high of .267. Career .232 RISP.
Cameron-will be 37 at the start of the season. Career .250 hitter, with a high of .272-5 years ago. It has been 10 years since he struck out less than 142 times in a full season, yet he has only cracked 25 +HRs once. He had 110 RBIs 9 years ago, hasn’t been better than 83 since.
I don’t like either one to be on the Yankees. It’s not personal, just business!
Dunn has the following OPS vs good pitchers
Wainwright: 1.296
Clemens: 1.125
Kerry Wood: 1.077
Tim Hudson: 1.037
Zambrano: .968
Oswalt: .943
He is perfectly capable of hitting good pitching, thats why he has 40 bombs every year
Crawford is a hot name right now but I’m not totally sold on signing him to a long term deal, if he is available after the 2010 season.
He’s already 28, going to be 29 after this season and he had a career year last year. His OBP was .364 while his career OBP is .335. The key to his game is speed and that is usually the first tool that disappears as players get older.
Everyone around here loves to talk about him and it’d be nice to have him on the Yankees for his age 29-33 years but anything after that is pretty risky.
My point is, he’s not the kind of premium player that I’d make long-term plans for like the way Cashman planned around signing Sabathia.
Crawford is a hot name right now but I’m not totally sold on signing him to a long term deal, if he is available after the 2010 season.
–
Crawford is a player I’d put up with a low OBP for because of his speed, defense, ability to hit for contact, and the probable added power at NYS.
Would a package of Hughes, Swisher, Romine, McAllister get a Halladay deal done? lol….
Mark in Tampa,
Yes that’s who I’m talking about. You are ignoring your initial argument that because they strike out a lot, they are poor against good pitchers. I don’t see why those two factors would have any correlation. If they do, prove me wrong.
I know they strike out a lot but Dunn is amazing at getting on base and he has massive power.
Cameron on the other hand has good power and he’s a great fielder in CF. He would be a solid upgrade over Melky. There are probably only 5 or 6 CF’s that are better overall players than Mike Cameron.
The chattering on about K’s and RBI’s convinces me some folks have no idea what makes an offense tick.
Dunn’s OPS+ over the last 5 years (2009-2005): 144 126 132 130 136. And if you want to look at RISP, his OPS in 2009 was 1.019. Career-wise, his OPS with RIS is .906. That’s awesome.
Cameron’s OPS+ over the last 5 years (2009-2005): 111 111 104 121 114. Plus great defense.
Champ,
his career OPS+ of 103 sucks and is unlikely to get better as he ages, loses speed and loses artificial turf hits. You don’t make future plans around a guy with a 103 OPS+. That’d be dumb.
“Crawford is a player I’d put up with a low OBP for because of his speed, defense, ability to hit for contact, and the probable added power at NYS. ”
Yeah but you know he’s going to get a big deal after the 2010 season and speed is the first thing to go away when a player gets older. If he’s 29 after 2010, would you sign him to a 6 year deal? I’m not sure..
4 years, yeah no doubt about it but anything more is kind of risky.
champ809,
I think you are underestimating Berkman’s value. It would likely take a lot more to get him. If they are shedding payroll, Swisher wouldn’t be in that deal, isn’t he owed @10M per year?
“Dunn has the following OPS vs good pitchers”
Have you ever seen him play? He is not good against good pitchers. He is a below average hitter in every sense, except that he runs into about 40 pitches a year.
thanks Jerkface i agree 120% about Crawford
I also wouldn’t discount that if you put him in alineup behind Jeter and in front of Tex and ARod carl would be pitched to differently and probably see a spike in .obp. Also as the team around him has gotten better he’s seen a spike in those #’s. Outside of the last 2yrs he’s played his career on terrible teams
as far as contract length he’s not a guy who would command an 8 or 9 yr deal so 5yrs would be about right with him
Mark,
Did you not see the numbers Jerkface just posted? He does fine against good pitchers.
You keep saying Dunn is terrible against good pitchers but I see nothing to back that up.
Mark,
Did you not see the numbers Jerkface just posted? He does fine against good pitchers.
You keep saying Dunn is terrible against good pitchers but I see nothing to back that up.
Girardi was just on Oprah.
pat-
I couldn’t find the complete ballot for a couple of those writers including Sherman, but his 8th-place vote for Jeter is mentioned in this article: http://www.nationalpost.com/sp.....id=2258383
However if you have read his columns it’s pretty clear he has ranked both Teixeira and Rodriguez ahead of Jeter.
Here’s a quote from Sherman’s blog:
“The largest criticism I received from the emails I read was that I had Derek Jeter (eighth on my ballot) too low. Jeter has had a tremendous season; his defense in particular has been fantastic. However, the more and more I thought about the Yankees I wondered if there should be some kind of penalty for being in that fantastic lineup because it is hard to make a case that any one player is indispensable. But the Yanks were only 13-15 early in the season without Alex Rodriguez. And I also believe that Mark Teixeira would be harder for the Yankees to live without than Jeter. Now that sounds like a knock on Jeter. It is not. But when you only have 10 spots to put names, you are trying to find ways to split hairs.”
Dunn has a great OPS with RISP. Great, that means he walks a lot with RISP. Because he sure isn’t getting many hits. You need hitters to drive those runs in, not continually take walks. Giambi did that, do you want a rerun of his last 3 or 4 years in NY?
Swish has 2yrs and $15.5mil left on his contract so that’s half of Berkman’s contact.
Swish would give them similar production to what Berk did last year at 1b and in IPK he could be a middle of the rotation guy in the NL and Dunn and Whelan are two good bullpen arms with Whelan potentially capable of closing. Neither if the 3 will make any $ for 3-4yrs and Houston has a dearth of arms at both the major and minor league levels
I would take figgins over any adam dunn deal. This team needs a little speed…Im sick of the clunky big sluggers going station to station
Joe
November 24th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Girardi was just on Oprah.
****************
Really? That’s cool. Care to recap?
Sorry but Id put swisher in a halladay deal before a berkman deal…..Hughes, Swisher, Romine, McAllister + maybe another lower level prospect. That wouldnt be a bad deal at all….but maybe because I’m a Yankee fan
Sherman is full of it, Jeter might not have drove the engine, but he did start it.
Wow, if a player is 28, and the quality of Crawford, someone is actually reluctant to make a long term deal? Well please name 5 LF’s you’d prefer to have.
To suggest that he ‘may’ slow down in the later years of his contract is silly. Just silly. Of course he will. So what? So did Jeter, and Damon, and so will Gardner and Melky and AJax. So did I. It happens.
Dunn has a great OPS with RISP. Great, that means he walks a lot with RISP. Because he sure isn’t getting many hits. You need hitters to drive those runs in, not continually take walks. Giambi did that, do you want a rerun of his last 3 or 4 years in NY?
–
You know there is this thing… called the internet, where you can look things up.
.283 .454 .566 1.019
Thats Dunn with RISP 2009, absolutely ridiculous
“Dunn has a great OPS with RISP. Great, that means he walks a lot with RISP. Because he sure isn’t getting many hits. You need hitters to drive those runs in, not continually take walks.”
Wrong again.
Dunn’s 2009 SLG with RISP? .566
Career? .486.
That means he gets a lot of extra base hits with RISP.
You do know you can look these things up pretty easily, before you post?
Figgins sucks, too.
This type of slow developing player market actually works in Cashman’s favor.
Dunn’s a very good hitter and could hit 50 playing his home games in YS.
“You are ignoring your initial argument that because they strike out a lot, they are poor against good pitchers. I don’t see why those two factors would have any correlation. If they do, prove me wrong”
This is not proof, of course, but hitters who strike out a lot normally do because they have holes in their swing or do not have a good handle on the strike zone. Who is better able to exploit that? A good pitcher or a mediocre pitcher? So Dunn has success against a few of the top pitchers. OK, the stats aren’t lying there. But, I would, on balance, prefer a .290 hitter who Ks 80 times or less to a .250 hitter who Ks 150+ times, even if he hits a few more HRs and walks a little more.
OK, the stats aren’t lying there. But, I would, on balance, prefer a .290 hitter who Ks 80 times or less to a .250 hitter who Ks 150+ times, even if he hits a few more HRs and walks a little more.
—
Enjoy being GM of the Royals.
I’m going to turn this argument around. You know what I think? I think that players who have high averages and empty OBP get absolutely dominated by good pitchers because they rely on squeeking grounders by the defense and getting lucky bloops to pad their batting average. Players with low averages and high OBP have to make the most of their plate appearances, and often square up the ball better leading to more XBH. They need to know the strike zone, so they walk more. Good pitchers can’t make mistakes to that kind of guy. You can make a mistake to a .300 hitter with a poor OBP or not as much slugging because they rely on getting any piece of wood on the ball and hoping it gets through.
Look at the angels, shut down in the postseason. Look at Cano. Look at Rollins and Victorino.
What about Thome for DH/5th spot.
He’ll probably take a 1 yr contract.
Sure he’s old,slow, injured and strikes out a lot.
But he’s such a nice guy. And Swisher really loves him.
And he needs 36 HR’s to get to 600. Sounds like fun.
Can’t expect to win the World Series every year.
Dunn is also .201 BA, .738 OPS against power pitchers in 2009; .221, .853 career. Power pitchers are usually the better pitchers, he has done much of his damage against finesse pitchers.
We can argue stats all day, and make them say whatever you want, but do you really want Adam Dunn in a Yankee uniform? I have no interest in seeing that at all.
“But, I would, on balance, prefer a .290 hitter who Ks 80 times or less to a .250 hitter who Ks 150+ times, even if he hits a few more HRs and walks a little more.”
So who are we comparing Dunn to? Who would you rather have?
Phil
this is why statheads and geeks can’t be given the keys to the shop…you’e using the one stat of ops+ to make your case against Crawford but completely neglecting the fact that Crawford is alsp going to give you the best defense in LF steal you 55-60 bases and hit you 12-15 triples making the top of your lineup lethal. Oh throw in the fact that he’ll be a nice mentor for Austin Jackson with them both being Texas boys and i think it’s a fit for me.
And talking about him losing his speed is silly being that you have no evidence of that and he’s 28 not 38…
Dunn is also .201 BA, .738 OPS against power pitchers in 2009; .221, .853 career. Power pitchers are usually the better pitchers, he has done much of his damage against finesse pitchers.
–
The difference between Adam Dunn the .221 hitter vs power pitchers, and Adam Dunn the .280 hitter vs power pitchers is 14 hits a season. If he had those 14 hits he’d also OBP far above .400.
As it stands he is an exceptional player vs power pitchers, with a high OBP and good slugging.
his is why statheads and geeks can’t be given the keys to the shop…you’e using the one stat of ops+ to make your case against Crawford but completely neglecting the fact that Crawford is alsp going to give you the best defense in LF steal you 55-60 bases and hit you 12-15 triples making the top of your lineup lethal. Oh throw in the fact that he’ll be a nice mentor for Austin Jackson with them both being Texas boys and i think it’s a fit for me.
–
Advanced metrics such as UZR, RZR account for defense and advanced offensive stats such as wOBA and EqA can account for steals and triples whatever.
Arguing against ’stat heads’ is ridiculous. Patrick has a valid argument for being wary about crawford. His game is based almost entirely on speed, with above league average BABIP in every season.
He also plays on turf which could cause early physical problems in his legs.
Not taking a position in the Crawford argument but fangraphs has him as the second most valuable LF in the majors in 2009. Combined with being relatively young, that means you gotta think about him.
Jerkface
Cano hit 25hrs/48 2bs and 3 3bs for 75xbhs top 10 in mlb for a .520 slg% what exactly are we looking at…Cano had a inconsistant postseason but he’s not some slappy singles hitter
champ809,
I’m glad you’ve found a label for those smarter than you. And the 12-15 triples are accounted for in the OPS+. He’s a good fielder and a good basestealer and should be as long as his speed lasts, but his OBP will probably go down on grass, and his 103 OPS+ sucks for a corner OF which he would be for the Yanks.
Cano hit 25hrs/48 2bs and 3 3bs for 75xbhs top 10 in mlb for a .520 slg% what exactly are we looking at…Cano had a inconsistant postseason but he’s not some slappy singles hitter
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Yea I like Cano, but the point I’m making is that players who focus on batting average and lack strike zone discipline aren’t some magic game winning player over low average/high strike out guys.
champ,
Uhh according to so-called “statheads” Carl Crawford was the second most valuable LF in all of baseball last year.
My only point about Crawford is that most of his game depends on speed and as players age, speed is the first thing to go away. Considering he is nearing the age of 30, I’d be wary of signing him to a long deal after the 2010 season when he’s a FA.
Similar to how Damon was looking for a 7 year deal after he became an FA and got a 4 year deal. I’m sure Crawford will be looking for the same thing, a 7 year deal which I wouldn’t want to give him. However, I’d be all for another 4 year deal, maybe 5 years.
i was referring to Phil not Patrick and as Wave pointed out a overall analysis of Crawford shows he is one of the best most valuable LF’ers in the game.
Rickey Henderson’s game was based on speed,so is Jose Reyes’ what the hell does that mean
as far as playing on the turf and possible injury Carls played on average 155 games and I’m of the opinion that he’d want to get off turf and on natural grass to possibly extend his career
In reality, Crawford should transition to CF. His bat translates there a lot better and his stellar defense would definitely hold up in CF. If his agent is smart he will be marketed as a CF when he becomes a FA.
trust me Phil i doubt that you’re smarter than me.
as far as Crawford losing speed if he lost two steps he’d still be faster and smarter on the basepaths than anybody we have in uniform right now
Yanks signed Eladio Moronta a toolsy CF who had been suspended on age violation down in the DR.
Where’d you go to college, champ?
Ok we know Crawford is good but would you sign him to a 7 year deal after this season? That’s my only point.
If he can be had for a 4 or 5 year deal I’d be on board with that. However, if he gets a 7 year deal from some team I hope the yanks would stay away.
Patrick,
You are right about that, but for some reason, Crawford has an aversion to CF and also to batting leadoff. Both of those, or even one, would make him so much more valuable, but he has convinced himself that he is not comfortable.
What exactly are the Yanks giving up for 1 year of Dunn at 12 million?
Nats need pitching but then again so do the Yanks. So does pretty much everybody.
And I don’t think the Nats are interested in Kei Igawa.
Besides, I think half the Nats attendance are people hoping to catch a Dunn HR.
The other half are people who were lied to about Strasburg starting.
For 12 mil the Yanks might be able to get Matsui back.
What exactly are the Yanks giving up for 1 year of Dunn at 12 million?
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Mid level pitching prospects.
“if he gets a 7 year deal from some team I hope the yanks would stay away.”
I think this economy helps the Yanks quite a bit, because I don’t think very many teams are in a position to offer anybody those long term/high dollar deals. The Yankees probably wouldn’t need to go 7 to get anybody, let alone Crawford. However, I do not believe he will actually be a FA next year. Prediction-Tampa Bay locks him up with 4/65 by the end of ST. After seeing what Bay and Holliday get(or don’t get) this winter, he will be happy to take that, I think.
Yanks aren’t gonna spend on a DH.
Bronx Jeers-
The whole speculation about Dunn was originally based on the Yanks not being able to sign Matsui to a one year deal, I think.
“No one should count on Cano moving up to 2 or the 5 hole. He’s proven many times in his career when you take him out of the 6-7-8 hole he struggles.”
I’m pretty sure that if Cano were moved up in the lineup full time his numbers would mirror his career numbers.
Not sure why the Yankees would have moved him up years ago, the guys who have been batting ahead of him are all better or similar hitters.
Tampa is not spending 14mil on Crawford with a 40mil payroll with Desmond Jennings waiting in the wings…
I hope the Yanks don’t spend $ on a DH as I’ve been saying all along that I want Miranda to be the primary DH and i think that he could come close to Matsui’s production with 500abs.
CF is a much more demanding position to play than LF and i think Carl is more comfortable in LF similar to Ichiro prefering RF over CF
Cano’s heading into his age 27 season, and I wouldn’t be surprised if all of his numbers go up.
Miranda will be lucky to be a Yankee on April 1st.
‘Girardi was just on Oprah’ ???
Sounds like an awkward scene if someone were to walk in … besides, isn’t he married?
They’re gonna try Miranda as one of the rotating DH’s.
Sounds like an awkward scene if someone were to walk in … besides, isn’t he married?
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On Oprah, not in Oprah
“They’re gonna try Miranda as one of the rotating DH’s.”
Not if he’s a part of trade package which is what I expect to happen in the coming weeks.
“The whole speculation about Dunn was originally based on the Yanks not being able to sign Matsui to a one year deal, I think.”
Probably but whether or not he’ll get offered 2 yrs remains to be seen.
As of right now, mobile OFers with similar production are getting 2 yrs/19 mm.
And we thought last years market was slow.
crawdaddy,
right now, they intend to use him in a DH role, and he’s not in any of their trade mixes. They’re only going big on LF and pitching as far as major league payroll. They’re not gonna sign a DH as it stands now as they are looking to cut payroll a bit.
Dunn? Milton Bradley?
Lunacy.
i would go 4yrs/60 or 5yrs/75 for Crawford there are no 7yr deals out there right now if your names not Pujols or ARod or maybe Prince
On Oprah today.She hosted the crew of flight 1549(The miracle on the Hudson)Pilot Sullenberger(Sully) and crew,along with the first responders that helped get the people to safety.
Joe G. appeared on behalf of the Yankees,and invited all to a game next season,batting practice,and a chance to meet the Players,as the Yankees VIP guest,for their heroism!!
That Yankees organization is first class!
“right now, they intend to use him in a DH role, and he’s not in any of their trade mixes. They’re only going big on LF and pitching as far as major league payroll. They’re not gonna sign a DH as it stands now as they are looking to cut payroll a bit.”
Phil,
If you’re the Phil I think you are, I know you have your inside sources, but I wouldn’t believe Cashman if he told me that right to my face. Not that Cashman is a liar, but circumstances have a tendency to change as the player market evolves from what it is now until what it becomes in late January. Therefore, when Miranda is still on the team in March and the Yankees don’t have much beyond him as a DH candidate then and only then will I believe it.
Miranda will not be traded he has a better shot of being on the opening day roster as he has more value to the Yanks than to any other team.
He’s passed all the hurdles they’ve set in front of him,he’s in his walk year and he could potentially replace Matsui’s LH/DH/role for 535k similar to the way that Morales replaced Tex’s production for the Angels for 800K. He’s ready, he’s a power LH hitting rbi guy with a potential impact bat who will have the opportunity to parlay a good walk year with the Yanks into a several million dollar a year contract. I’m all on board with saving $ by giving himthe primary dh abs esp. against rhp whom he murders and redirecting that cash into someone like Aroldis Chapman and maybe seeing what it’d take to get Berkman.
That’s the payroll flexibility that Cash has been dying to have for 3-4yrs now
We shall see……..
what most people seem to not really grasp is the concept of payroll flexibility.
Most on here seem to wnat the Yanks to sign Holliday,trade for and sign Halladay move the prospects or cheap but productive players we have so that we end up with a team full of 30+yr old all stars that are all making 15-30million dollars so that we can guarantee 3 more championships.
That’s the opposite of what Cash will do should and/or wants to do.
A guy like Miranda or AJax may be throw away pieces to the average fan but the have a much different intrinsic value to an organization even one like our Yankees.
Example what is the likelihood that the Rays pay Crawford 60-75mil over the next 5yrs when their top prospect,Desmond Jennings, will play in AAA this coming year and profiles as the same player as Crawford and may offer equal production over the next 5yrs for $5mil.
More likely they go into the season with Crawford after picking up his option and seeing if they can compete. If they are out of the race at the trade deadline then they will move him for cheaper pieces and call up Jennings or let him play out the season and take the 2picks with him being a def type A FA.
I’m intrigued at the possibility of Juan Miranda as DH. For some time, prior to Tex of course, I had hoped he would have a shot at 1B. It would be earth-shattering if the NY Yankees started the season with a rookie as DH. Earth Shattering. But it would clearly confirm to me that the organization is opperating differently.
It would be great to see the 2010 season start with Melancon, Jackson, Pena, Cervelli and possibly Miranda – if the unthinkable is true, joining last year’s crop of Robertson and Gardner.
OPS leaves out stolen bases. It seems to me that a better measure is OPS plus net stolen bases. Is there such a stat available?