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Great American Halladay?

Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Nov 25, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Thanksgiving is usually a quiet time in baseball, though there have been some exceptions. In 2003, the Red Sox put on a full-court press to get Curt Schilling, with Theo Epstein even traveling to Arizona to woo the righthander and his family over turkey and stuffing.

Now, at least according to our friends at the Daily News, it looks as if the Red Sox may be gearing up for a similarly productive holiday season. This time the target is Blue Jays ace Roy Halladay and the inevitable pursuit we all expected appears to be picking up steam. The Red Sox watched the Yankees land CC Sabathia and A.J. Burnett last winter, so is it a big surprise that Boston is looking to add a marquee pitcher this offseason?

Since the Yankees aren’t just going to sit back and watch, there are two options:

1. Get involved in talks with the Blue Jays in an effort to drive the price of a Halladay trade up but ultimately pull out.

2. Legitimately try to make a deal.

In this situation, with Halladay being a 32-year-old ace and Toronto (seemingly) considering a trade within the division, the price is going to be pretty high regardless, so No. 1 almost isn’t necessary. Halladay is going to cost and, with new Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos now in charge, it’s not like the Yankees can just wait until Halladay is going to be a free agent and then pay him. Anthopoulos is surely going to move Halladay so Toronto gets something for him.

If the Yankees are truly interested, they probably need to be prepared to part with Phil Hughes/Joba Chamberlain and Austin Jackson/Jesus Montero, plus about $100 million for a contract extension on Halladay. Is that for certain? No, but it seems to be where most observers see the market. Boston is looking at Clay Bucholz plus another top prospect (the News suggests Casey Kelly, who Epstein is said to love), so this seems like a comparable discussion.

Should they do it? My thinking on these types of situations is this:

I can’t predict what the Steinbrenners want to spend on payroll but with the Yankees there is always wiggle room (and a lot of it) so I don’t factor in the extension very much at all. If the Yankees were willing to give Sabathia and Burnett – especially Burnett – a lengthy deal, Halladay is certainly just as (if not more) viable.

The player perspective is the more important issue and ultimately it comes down to whether you think BOTH prospects in the deal will become big stars. To me, I’d always be willing to trade one great prospect for an established superstar so – in my opinion – it’s only a losing proposition if both kids turned out to be huge.

If the Yankees could get Halladay for Joba and Austin Jackson, I would do it. I’m not convinced both players in that deal would become superstars and even if one did, it’s impossible to say for sure they’d even come close to approximating Halladay’s success. I’d try everything to keep Montero out of the deal (knowing the situation with Posada and the value of catchers in general) but of the other three – Hughes, Chamberlain, Jackson – I’d be less hesitant. There is no reason to believe Halladay won’t continue to be among the league’s premier pitchers, and if you have a chance to get him, I’d take it.

By the way, this isn’t about “blocking” the Red Sox. These kinds of deals can’t be only about keeping a player from another team. Or at least they shouldn’t be. Pitching is always the difference and Halladay would give the Yankees two legitimate aces, the top No. 3 in baseball (in Burnett) and probably Andy Pettitte coming in at No. 4.

That’d the best rotation in baseball and it wouldn’t even be close.

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232 Responses to “Great American Halladay?”

  1. Andrew @ NoYoureATowel November 25th, 2009 at 9:46 am

    I wonder, though, how the Yankees could change around their philosophy so quickly from not double paying for Johan Santana but doing so for Roy Halladay…

    I know Halladay may be the better pitcher right now, but the situation isn’t that far removed

  2. Sam Borden November 25th, 2009 at 9:48 am

    Andrew,

    You may well be right and it’s a good point. I was offering my opinion of what I would do — Cash, in his infinite wisdom, may have a different philosophy.

    Then again, I might well have traded for Santana, too :-)

  3. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 9:49 am

    Controversial comment of the day: I would not trade Joba or Hughes for Roy Halladay. Never Montero.

    Joba and Hughes are YOUNG pitchers that the Yankees really believe have the ability to become Aces one day,and even if they’re not quite as good as Halladay if they’re realy good for a long time and cheap that’s > really good for a short time and expensive.

  4. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 9:49 am

    Wouldn’t really call Kelly a “position player”. His future at SS is pretty much zero. He can’t hit. He can pitch though, and that’s almost certainly where he’ll end up.

  5. RayVT November 25th, 2009 at 9:51 am

    Interesting thoughts. I believe Boston is in trouble and are searching for answers. Scutaro for SS is a key IMO. I believe they trade Papelbon to Tigers for Cabrera & move Bard to closer. I also think they take a flier on Kelvim Escobar as a #4/5 starter for depth for Wakefield/Dice-K. I think the Sox then try to get a frontline SP with Buckholtz/Bowden/two Single A Prospects/Plus ??. (Halladay or Santana or Josh Johnson) Lastly, I think they sign Chone Figgins to play LF.

    C- Martinez
    1B- Cabrera
    2B- Pedroia
    SS- Scutaro
    3B- Youkilis
    LF- Figgins
    CF- Ellsbury
    RF- Drew
    DH- Ortiz/Lowell

    SP1- Beckett
    SP2- Lester
    SP3- Halladay/Santana/JJohnson
    SP4- Matsuzaka
    SP5- Wakefield/Escobar
    CL- Bard

  6. Mark in Tampa November 25th, 2009 at 9:51 am

    But is it realistic to think that they would be willing to bring Pettitte back if they bring in Halladay at 16M? We would be talking about 62M just for 4 starters in 2010. I am not sure Hal wants the payroll at that level. Especially when it actually costs more because of the luxury tax.

    If they don’t re-sign Pettitte, then they have Hughes, with innings limits, as the number 4; and Gaudin, Aceves, or Kennedy as the 5. They are better 1-3, but worse 4 and 5.

  7. Mike RI November 25th, 2009 at 9:52 am

    Great Article Same. couldn’t have said it better myself!

  8. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 9:52 am

    Bard to closer would be nice. Yanks don’t own Ppelbon (not that they CAN’T hit him), but over and admittedly short sample size, they do own Bard. I don’t see a long future as a closer with Bard.

  9. Mike RI November 25th, 2009 at 9:52 am

    *Sam

  10. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 9:53 am

    “I wonder, though, how the Yankees could change around their philosophy so quickly from not double paying for Johan Santana but doing so for Roy Halladay…”

    Pure speculation on my end, but the fact that they won it all could play a role in a possible shift in philosophies.

  11. Sam Borden November 25th, 2009 at 9:54 am

    Mark,

    Fair point on Pettitte, though I think if you’re in for over-budget, you’re in. I don’t see Pettitte going anywhere else at this point in his career so perhaps the Yankees could convince him for more of an incentive-based contract (again) if they do get Halladay. Either way, if they’re going over-budget for Halladay I think they’ll probably not balk at bringing Pettitte back, too. That’s just my guess.

  12. m November 25th, 2009 at 9:55 am

    A bird in the hand is worth 2 (or 3) in the bush…

    Joba + Jackson + pitching prospect sounds about right.

  13. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 9:56 am

    Question: If Halladay is REALLY worth that much more than Joba or Hughes, why would Toronto want them?

    I agree with the Yankees in that I see potential for BOTH to be future Aces.

  14. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 10:00 am

    “But is it realistic to think that they would be willing to bring Pettitte back if they bring in Halladay at 16M?”

    Not sure bringing in Halladay at $16M is especially realistic. He’ll run $20M plus IMO.

  15. Erin November 25th, 2009 at 10:00 am

    Wait till we do it all Over Again
    November 25th, 2009 at 9:56 am

    I agree with the Yankees in that I see potential for BOTH to be future Aces.

    ***********************
    Me too. Cashman talks all the time about needing to be patient with Joba and Hughes. This is JMO, but I don’t see them getting Hallady this winter.

  16. Mike RI November 25th, 2009 at 10:00 am

    Question: If Halladay is REALLY worth that much more than Joba or Hughes, why would Toronto want them?

    -Answer-
    Because they have to get something for him before he leaves Toronto.

  17. RayVT November 25th, 2009 at 10:00 am

    I believe the Yankees will sign SP Lackey. I also believe they will trade for an OF, possibly Granderson or Carlos Lee maybe. Holiday or Bay are options via FA, but I just don’t believe they will do that.

  18. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 10:02 am

    Mike RI-But if he leaves for FA, don’t they get draft picks?

  19. Roger(live from Amsterdam) November 25th, 2009 at 10:02 am

    If you’r willing to spent money.I’d rather have someone like lackey AND hughes AND joba AND jackson then just Halladay

    Hallday is probably the best pitcher in baseball.But I’d rather be rooting for guys like joba,hughes and jackson then buying a WS.

  20. Phil November 25th, 2009 at 10:02 am

    We need to keep either Joba or Phil. I don’t want to trade either quite frankly. We have good trade pieces in pitchers Nova, McAllister, Ajax, Montero -who knows maybe others in AA or AAA ball – to reel in a very good pitcher from some team other than Toronto if the price is too high for Halladay. But who and what team? I dont know.

  21. Mark in Tampa November 25th, 2009 at 10:02 am

    Why is there no Dan Haren talk at all this year? If Joba or Hughes are to be traded, why not for Haren? You wouldn’t have to face them 4 times per year if they do realize their potential. Also, Haren made 7.5 last year, so you could retain Pettitte as well without totally blowing the budget.

    In fact, if they non-tender Wang and let Molina go, the move would be…deficit neutral. :)

  22. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 10:03 am

    Just to give you an idea of the Yankee payroll flex:

    After working with a $201 million payroll the Yankees have roughly $36 million off the books at the moment, since Damon and Matsui (at $13 million each), Pettitte ($5 million) and Chien-Ming Wang (not expected to be offered a contract after making $5 million last year) add to $36 million.

    That is countered by Sabathia’s 2010 salary increasing $9 million, Robinson Cano going up $3 million, Nick Swisher getting a $1.450 million bump, Derek Jeter going up $1 million and Damaso Marte getting a $250,000 increase. That totals $14.7 million.

    The difference is $21.3 million – if we’re to assume the Yankees want to keep the payroll where it was last year.

    Brian Cashman has often said that you can’t make moves because you’re afraid of what the other guy is going to do. I think if the Red Sox get Halladay the Yankees will counter with a move of their own – but they aren’t going to get dragged into a bidding war for him.

    For what it’s worth, this was the exact same situation that came up with Johan. The Red Sox were putting together a deal for him, so the Yankees made an offer, Bill Smith tried to play one against the other and both walked away.

  23. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 10:03 am

    My bad, Mark. I guess you were talking about Halladay’s ’10 salary, which is about $16M

  24. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 10:04 am

    Mark -

    But why would Arizona deal Haren? With him, a healthy Webb, and an improving Scherzer there’s no reason Arizona can’t put together a team capable of winning the NL West.

  25. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 10:05 am

    My prediction for the Yankees offseason: Yankees resign Pettite, keep Jobber and Hughes in the starting rotation. I’d love for them to resign Matsui AND Damon, but I think they’ll only keep Damon. Then they sign Mike Cameron for LF. Thhat way instead of the dreaded “revolving DH” where our best lineup involves Brett Gardner we have a legitimate A lineup with Damon at DH and Cameron in LF. When you want to rest players, say Posada, you stick Damon in LF, take out Cameron, and plug Jorge at DH w/Cervelli catching. Voila.

  26. NYYROC November 25th, 2009 at 10:06 am

    It’s an interesting situation and can be viewed from many different angles. One way of looking at it is that having a rotation including CC, AJ and Doc would be unbelievable. Another view, as mentioned by many here, Cashman has said he doesn’t like these kind of deals where he has to double pay, he didn’t make the Santana deal, why would he change his approach now, especially since they have just broken the 9 year WS drought? Another view, at some point when does this just get ridiculous? Soon the entire rotation will be made up of $20MM/ year guys.

  27. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 10:08 am

    Rememer, Toronto doesn’t HAVE to do anything. I don’t want to trade away one of our potential young Aces for an old Ace.

    The question is, do I think the remainder of Joba/Hughes’s career will be as or more valuable than the short time we have Halladay, and the answer is yes.

  28. RMEL November 25th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    Nice read Sam, I believe Cash will pass with Doc as he did with Santana…and remember Santana was 4 years younger then Doc…I think Lackey would be the guy we add because it just cost money…CC,AJ and Lackey would be almost as good at Beckett, Lester and Doc….Plus you might want to hold on to those chips if Joshson becomes available at some point

  29. Phil November 25th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    I guess we can always re-sign Phil or Joba at free agency.

  30. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    “But why would Arizona deal Haren?”

    I don’t think they’d do it this year. If they did though, you’re probably talking about a package of 4 high end prospects because he’s under contract for 4 more years at an average of $12M per. He’d cost a lot more than Halladay, IMO. I’d look at Haren in the same way I’d look at Adrian Gonzalez. You’ll have to WOW a team to pry them loose.

  31. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    There was some talk on the last thread about Cashman suggesting a 2 for 1 trade to clear roster spots –

    How about this as a possible DeJesus deal:

    IPK, Kevin Russo, Brett Gardner & Brian Bruney for DeJesus and Brian Bannister (although if they could swing it so Gil Meche was included I would be good with that.)

    As it stands right now, for Ian Kennedy to make the Yankee rotation in the next three years both Phil Hughes and Joba would have to flame out as starters, Andy would have to retire and the Yankees would have to decide not to go after a single free agent pitcher. That’s without considering whether guys like Zach McAllister, Dellin Betances, Andrew Brackman, Ivan Nova, or DJ Mitchell might pass him on the organizational depth chart.

    Gardner becomes their CF

    Russo’s a legit 2b prospect and leadoff hitter, but with Cano, Corona, Nunez, Pena the Yankees are deep there too.

    Bruney is a middle reliever but his salary offsets some of the money that the Yankees will be taking back.

    Plug DeJesus into LF and bat him 2nd and Bannister fills the Yankees’ desire to get a veteran for the back of the rotation. Bannister is due a raise from his 1.7 mil contract in arbitration this winter.

    As for comparing the potential of Joba/Hughes to Halladay – well that’s just silly. Halladay’s an elite pitcher – the odds of Hughes or Joba reaching that level are slim, not because they are bad pitchers, but because the level that Halladay’s at is so hard to reach. That said, I don’t think he’s going to be a New York Yankee.

  32. Rich in NJ November 25th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    I don’t think the RS would give up Bucholz and Kelly no matter what Feinsand says. I think Andrew @ NoYoureATowel is right that Cash won’t change his “prospects or contract” philosophy. So my guess is that Halladay will go to the RS for less than Bucholz and Kelly.

    The only thing that can cause Halladay to become a Yankee is if he tells the Jays that he will only waive his NTC to go to NY. In which case, the price will be less than Joba/A-Jack.

  33. Roger(live from Amsterdam) November 25th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    Totonto will never make that deal with Boston.Buckholz is very overrrated.He doesn’t even come close to guys like Hughes or Joba

  34. Mike RI November 25th, 2009 at 10:13 am

    Come on guys ! Your not giving up the whole farm. Your giving up either Joba OR Hughes ,(we’ll still have one of the young kids). Austin Jackson and a few other pieces. If they ask for Montero. you get up and leave.

    You have to give something to recieve something.

  35. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 10:13 am

    I disagree that Buccholz is overrated. I was extremely impressed with Buccholz last season. He pitched well against such Ace pitchers as CC Sabathia and Roy Halladay several teams. He got through the great Yankees lineup with 2 runs in 6 innings. That’s pretty good.

  36. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 10:14 am

    I know you have to give to recieve something. Which is why I DON’T want Halladay.

  37. Tommy H November 25th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Would Toronto do Montero/Jackson/McCalister? Would the Yankees?

    My starting point if I’m Cash would be Jackson/Romaine/McCalister-

  38. Mark in Tampa November 25th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    One thing that gives me pause with Halladay is the history with the Clemens deal. Even though he was older than Roy is now, he had 2 of the most dominating seasons of his career just before the Yanks traded for him. He was better, no doubt about it, in ’97 and ’98 than Halladay has been the last two years. Yet, he had a 4.6 ERA in his first Yankee year, the team won in spite of him, not because of him. He was, overall, of course a positive for the Yankees; but he most definitely was not the pitcher we thought we were getting.

  39. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    I don’t think the Yanks would get Halladay because I don’t think the Jays trade him unless Joba and Hughes are in the deal.

    I don’t think the Red Sox get him either, for that matter. Maybe Anaheim, but my gut feeling is he stays on the Blue Jays.

  40. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 10:17 am

    Mike -

    I just think it goes against every fiber of Cashman’s being to make a deal where he’s giving up high ceiling young major leaguers for a player whom he then has to sign to a 9 figure contract.

  41. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 10:17 am

    Mark-Well if you fast forward that deal 2 years he did win a Cy Young for the Yanks. I think that deal worked out pretty well.

    But I still wouldn’t trade for Halladay.

  42. Rich in NJ November 25th, 2009 at 10:18 am

    btw, The Angels may be willing and able to offer more than the RS, so that could prevent him from going to Boston, assuming Halladay wants to play in LA.

  43. Rich in NJ November 25th, 2009 at 10:20 am

    Mark in Tampa

    Although there was a period of adjustment for Clemens in NY, he also had a hamstring pull in his first year here.

  44. Roger(live from Amsterdam) November 25th, 2009 at 10:20 am

    Halladay needs a tan.Let him go to LA

  45. TLVP November 25th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    i think the Yankees need to worry about a number of things here

    1) would a deal make sense in the current CBA and financil rules of MLB?

    2) could a deal actually change the rules of MLB finances?

    The talk of the Yankees buying the WS was unavoidable, but on the back of that they need to keep a slightly lower profile this offseason. IF they win next year with Halladay on new USD 110m/5 year deal, the complaints would be even louder and the risk of a salary cap would be a lot bigger

    Winning with Hughes, Montero, Joba and Ajax would be much less controversial than with Halladay…

  46. McGeorge Bundy November 25th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    I’d like to see the Yanks get a deal done. Joba and Jackson for Halladay, if possible, sounds good to me.

  47. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    “btw, The Angels may be willing and able to offer more than the RS, so that could prevent him from going to Boston, assuming Halladay wants to play in LA.”

    Keep hearing that the Angels are balking at including Erick Aybar in a Halladay deal. Aybar looks to be a pretty decent young SS, but I can’t believe they’d let him be the difference between getting Halladay and not getting him.

  48. Mark in Tampa November 25th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    Wait till we do it all Over Again,

    I know, I did say that the deal was overall a positive, especially since we didn’t give up much. Wells was our best starter in ’98, but he was a veteran the Yanks thought was headed to the downside(correctly). My point was that he was not the dominating Clemens we thought we traded for.

    Put it this way-if we gave up Hughes or Joba and Montero, and got a 4.60 season out of Halladay, where it appeared his stuff was diminishing, would you be happy with that deal? I know that the Clemens deal doesn’t directly correlate, but it woould make me hesitate on pulling the trigger.

  49. Tommy H November 25th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    Clemens was better as a Yankee than people give him credit for- from the 2000 ALCS on he was dominating and had very very good post seasons, which included the most dominant start I’ve ever seen in a big spot (2000 game 5 knocking A-rod down and then being lights out) and 2 great world series games (piazza bat throw and game 7 2001)-

  50. betsy November 25th, 2009 at 10:25 am

    GB, thanks for clarifying about Joba and Hughes – and I agree with you 100%. I think this is a big year for Joba especially – he has to be good (not great).

    Boy – this Halladay thing is pure torture. I was hoping we were done with this when Santana was dealt, but it’s deja vu all over again. I don’t think the Yankees should make any move just to block the Sox – that’s the sign of a panicky, desperate team. If they honestly feel they should go for it, then go for it. If not, then deal with Roy on the Sox. There’s no way I give up Joba/Hughes and Montero. I’ve said all along I wouldn’t give up Joba or Hughes period, but I can understand the reasoning of those who would. That’s what makes this so difficult. I think those of use who want to hold onto the kids (specifically Joba and Phil) have a valid argument and those who think that we should give up one of them have a valid argument. Neither side has a slam dunk, IMO.

    I would give up Jackson, but then of course, what to do in the OF? The Yankees have zero OF prospects that are close to being MLB-ready……..

  51. bru November 25th, 2009 at 10:27 am

    no way i trade a ton of prospects for a 33 yr old pitcher that will be extended for years

    you give up way to many top prospects & pay top dollar for to many years

    why not sign lackey or try to trade for king felix

    if i am giving up hughes/joba,ajax,montero it is for a 24 yr old pitcher that made under 4 million in 2009

    i know kf payday will come but…

    we would have 60 million or so tied up in 3 pitchers for 15 years total

    i would not sign lackey but if i am cashman i am on the phone with detroit & seattle for verlander or kf

    i don’t wan’t to hear that nobody is going to give us verlander or king felix either

    most on this board less than a year ago said no way the padres would trade ag or seattle would not trade kf.

    hughes/joba/ajax/montero & maybe cano is a very nice set of players

    pitching wins so if i am going to give up several of our best prospects i am going to try hard to land kf or verlander first

    if we can’t at least we tried

    man would that kill the rs if we got kf

  52. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 10:27 am

    Mark-It depends. The 1st year I’d be mad, but if he was great somewhere down the line, like Cy Young great, then yeah. Especially if he didn’t hurt our title run.

  53. Mark in Tampa November 25th, 2009 at 10:28 am

    Chip,

    I don’t know that Arizona would be willing to part with Haren, it may make no sense for them at all. I am just wondering why there is no noise at all around him. If I were Cashman, I would at least be calling AZ about him. Maybe he has, and has been told no way. Just putting him out there, he had been a hot name for a number of years, and has done nothing performance-wise to keep from being a hot name.

  54. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 10:28 am

    The talk of the Yankees buying the WS was unavoidable, but on the back of that they need to keep a slightly lower profile this offseason.

    No they really don’t. The Yankees are going to go into this season with a payroll right around 200 mil; it will still be higher than everyone else’s payroll by a wide margin.

    And if a high payroll team like Boston or Los Angeles were to trade for Halladay it would still make the same waves that a Yankee deal for him would make.

    In the end – none of that matters. There will never be a salary cap of any kind in baseball no matter how much hand wringing Selig or some of the other owners do – because the MLBPA will never allow one. It’s a non-starter with them and will only lead to a long strike or long lock out – neither of which are good for baseball and both the owners and players know it.

    The only possible outcome would be an increase in Revenue Sharing (which the Yankees already get a break on thanks to the private financing of the stadium) or an increase to the luxury tax – either way – those would pale in comparison to the revenues that the Yankees generate.

    Bottom line is that the Yankees are a money making machine.

  55. betsy November 25th, 2009 at 10:30 am

    One time Bucholz pitched well against the Yankees – that’s enough to be overly impressed? He did most of his damage against the O’s and Jays…….Now, he did pitch pretty well against the Angels in the post-season. LOL It makes no difference what we think of Bucholz, just what the Jays think of him.

    Even if the Angels and Jays reach an agreement, who’s to say Doc would go there? They are neither an East Coast team nor a team that trains in Florida……In fact, if Doc has a list of teams he will play for, then the Jays shouldn’t bother to negotiate with teams not on that list – it’s just a waste for them to do so.

  56. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    The fact is he pitched well. Forget the linups, look at the results and the kid did very well.

  57. Rich in NJ November 25th, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Bucholz is good. If the Angels are offering Weaver, they would probably have the edge, but Bucholz has upside as a #2-#3.

  58. bru November 25th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    cc & burnett only cost us money so if it did not work we survive but halladay at 33 yrs old paying him 20 million a year for 5 years & giving up our best prospects?

    nuts.

    it is safer to sign lackey for a little less money & no prospects

  59. Mike RI November 25th, 2009 at 10:36 am

    The Yanks should just sign Lackey , keep all our kids , and call it a day !

  60. FUSER November 25th, 2009 at 10:36 am

    Question: “…Another view, as mentioned by many here, Cashman has said he doesn’t like these kind of deals where he has to double pay, he didn’t make the Santana deal, why would he change his approach now…”

    Answer: Cashman said in a recent interview that he didn’t do the Johan deal because he didn’t think that the Yankees were one player away from winning a championship. They’re now one player away from cementing the next dynasty, and his name is Roy Halladay.

    And as for the notion that the Yanks would be content with standing pat simply because they just ended the 9 years WS drought, there is precedent: They traded for Clemens after winning the ’98 WS. (That ’98 team is considered one for the ages, so it’s not like they needed Clemens.)

    One X factor in all this is Hank S. He bemoaned not trading for Johan, and I think he’ll be more vocal and not let a second opportunity to acquire a dominant ace pass by.

  61. Patrick from CT November 25th, 2009 at 10:37 am

    The Yankees all ready have BIG $$ tied up in CC and AJ long term. I just don’t see the Yankees going out and trading Joba or Phil plus and then signing another 100mil long term deal. I know the Yankes have lots of $$ but…

    Resign Andy for another year at 12mil and add another guy for depth.
    If Andy retires then go get another good Vet on a 1-2 year deal. I just don’t see another 100mil deal this year…

    Joba and or Phil will make it as the #3-4, have faith…

  62. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Just to throw a name out there – would there be any interest in making a deal for San Fran’s Jonathan Sanchez?

    He’s a LHP with lots of upside if he can get his control under control. The Giants have lots of arbitration eligible players and with Timmy being one of them, odds are they would like to pare a few off the roster.

    Yankees could probably get Sanchez for a package of IPK and Brett Gardner (maybe expand the deal a little for Ryan Garko to play some DH and some OF/1b off the bench)

  63. greenBeret7 November 25th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    TLVP
    November 25th, 2009 at 10:22 am
    i think the Yankees need to worry about a number of things here

    1) would a deal make sense in the current CBA and financil rules of MLB?

    2) could a deal actually change the rules of MLB finances?

    The talk of the Yankees buying the WS was unavoidable, but on the back of that they need to keep a slightly lower profile this offseason. IF they win next year with Halladay on new USD 110m/5 year deal, the complaints would be even louder and the risk of a salary cap would be a lot bigger

    Winning with Hughes, Montero, Joba and Ajax would be much less controversial than with Halladay…

    ————————————————————

    Who cares what the media idiots or other fans think? If they get Halladay or anybody else, I’m just fine with it. Will you suddenly become embarrassed? Will you feel so much shame that you’ll have to wear a paper bag with a dollar sign over your head to hide your identity?

  64. Chris from NJ November 25th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Halladay is a beast, no doubt about it, but what kind of contract would he demand as an extension? I think we need Hughes and Joba in the rotation, because AJ will probably look pretty old in his last year or two, and if the Yanks sign lackey, he will look just as old near the end of whatever kind of deal he gets. So trading a 23-24YO guy with upside for another mid 30s guy would pay off this year, and probably next year, but it would hinder the club down the road for sure.

  65. Nud November 25th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Make the deal for Doc Halladay!! It is a no brainer……CC, Halladay, Burnett, Andy………that is a winner!!!

    If the deal is to rich for the Yanks blood, then they will have to find an impact pitcher elsewhere. Lackey, Haren, Wolf…..It might be expensive, but signing Lackey, resigning Damon and trading for Granderson (he can hit 5th) might be the ticket.

    I’d just put the packAGE togehter for ROY “CY” HALLADAY

  66. damon enjoy 27...think 28 November 25th, 2009 at 10:43 am

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com
    Buster Olney quotes a Blue Jays exec,said the possibility of a trade is 50/50.
    Another source told him last summer they could have had 3 top prospects.Now they could get one star prospect,and one prospect with major league-potential.

    All of this is writer conjecture don’t take it serious.Cashman has the prospects,and the money if he thinks it works for the Yankees,he’ll deliver.

    Sawx really want Felix Hernandez,this may be smoke and mirrors.

  67. Nud November 25th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    There is going to be ALOT OF TALENT available via the trade market and a team like the Yankees CAN’T AND WON’T sit back when you can get excellent players at a fraction of their cost form a year or 2 ago…..

    Yanks are big business………..If they are gonna continue to have the highest tix prices then they better have the best players/…….every year!!1

  68. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    “They traded for Clemens after winning the ‘98 WS”

    They traded a pitcher on a the downside and an infielder who never really was a major leaguer. Yankees will have trade high end prospects in this case and pay a 5 year contract at $20M+. Clemens, I believe got a three year deal. On average, Clemens made about $8.5M per over his 5 years with the Yankees.

  69. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    And as for the notion that the Yanks would be content with standing pat simply because they just ended the 9 years WS drought, there is precedent: They traded for Clemens after winning the ‘98 WS.

    Clemens didn’t cost the Yankees any prospects – they got him for David Wells, Homer Bush and Graeme Lloyd. If the Yankees could get Halladay for AJ Burnett, Ramiro Pena and Damaso Marte I’m sure he would do that deal.

    One X factor in all this is Hank S. He bemoaned not trading for Johan, and I think he’ll be more vocal and not let a second opportunity to acquire a dominant ace pass by.

    Hank’s not calling the shots; Hal is.

  70. William Buckner November 25th, 2009 at 10:45 am

    I’m with bru…

    I only want to hear two names. King Felix or Josh Johnson. That’s it.

    If the Sox want to give them young cost controlled players for a 32 yr old soon to be FA, go ahead.

    But correct me if I’m wrong, isn’t Beckett a FA in 2011 too?

  71. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    “Yankees could probably get Sanchez for a package of IPK and Brett Gardner”

    No, they couldn’t.

  72. Chris from NJ November 25th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    Jonathan Sanchez is Ollie Perez by another name. He will get lit up in the AL East and by other good AL teams with patient hitters. I think Joba and Phil can start for us, and Joba should be past his innings limitations now.

  73. Chris from NJ November 25th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    Only thing to consider with the Sox trading for Halladay, does Halladay become the next Schilling? Schilling dominated at an advanced age and in big games for the Sox.

  74. RayVT November 25th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    Well Halladay would be nice, but Josh Johnson would be great! I’d trade Joba & Hughes for Johnson. Maybe they throw in Uggla and the Yanks move Cano or Uggla to LF.

  75. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    Buster Olney quotes a Blue Jays exec,said the possibility of a trade is 50/50.Another source told him last summer they could have had 3 top prospects.Now they could get one star prospect,and one prospect with major league-potential

    I think that the best thing that could have happened to the Blue Jays is the Johan fiasco. The Twins overplayed their hand and ended up making an awful trade because they were just determined to make a deal. I don’t think Toronto will make that mistake.

    If all they can get is one prospect and a marginal guy Anthopolus will decide he’s better off keeping Roy for one more year and just hope that the draft picks he gets for him as compensation pan out.

  76. blake November 25th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    I pretty much agree 100% with Sam’s comments. If Toronto will take Joba and Jackson then I’m doing that in a heartbeat

  77. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    I would certainly prefer Felix or Johnson to Halladay given what the Yankees would have to give up.

    I just heard a name on the trade block…old buddy of ours…Javy Vazquez.

    Ok ok ok – I know – I was there in 04 and I know.

    Do we think that last year’s outstanding season was a result of being in the NL or would you be willing to make a deal for him to be the 4th starter on the Yankees?

    Personally I think he’s a strictly NL pitcher (and his numbers back up that point) but I always thought he got a raw deal here – Torre and Mel just had no use for him and no confidence in him and so he always pitched with no room for error.

  78. Roger(live from Amsterdam) November 25th, 2009 at 10:57 am

    let’s say a Jackson+Hughes or Joba get it done…

    Who would you wanne keep:

    Joba or Hughes??

  79. Brian November 25th, 2009 at 10:57 am

    I don’t mind the Yankees giving up young talent for top of the line stars. And i realize that Halladay is one of, if not the best pitcher in the AL today. However, if we’re going to part with several of our top prospects, send them to florida for josh johnson, or go after King Felix, try for grienke. Get some friggin solid youth in the rotation.

  80. braeden November 25th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    If the Yankees had a added Halladay last season and won the WS.The haters would have a field day.So if he comes now he’s an added plus,because the team won without him.His being 32 is a concern,when Hernandez is so young and soon to be available.

  81. blake November 25th, 2009 at 10:59 am

    I don’t know about johnson but I’d say the price tag on Felix would be even higher than Halladay. The mariners believe they will compete next year and they have no reason to trade him right now

  82. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 10:59 am

    Roger – I keep Hughes.

    I like his makeup a whole lot more than Joba’s. I also am not as certain Joba will ever be the starter that Hughes will be.

  83. Mike RI November 25th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    let’s say a Jackson+Hughes or Joba get it done…

    Who would you wanne keep:

    Joba or Hughes??

    – I’d keep Joba !

  84. Roger(live from Amsterdam) November 25th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    I’d keep Hughes

  85. David Astoria November 25th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    I think Cashman regrets not getting Santana and now would be the perfect time to make up for that. The Yankees can part with Joba, Hughes and Jackson for a legit #1 or #2 starter. Joba and Hughes have been given their chances to be in the rotation and failed. Yes, Hughes was a surprise out of the pen this year. I would beat the house on another World Series with a Sabathia, Halladay, Burnett and Pettitte rotation.

  86. Noreaster November 25th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    I’d love to see the Sox trade for Roy and drain their farm system. No way Toronto goes for Laptop and a single A talent, he will cost at least another player who is probably on the Sox roster now or AA/AAA (maybe one of their outfielders?).

    Stay the course, keep the kids and sign Lackey if they think they need another starter. If Pettitte comes back that gives the Yankees a GREAT rotation and a GREAT pen. Phil/Joba as a number 5 and the other in the pen? That’s sick.

  87. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    As most of you know I don’t think the Yankees are going to deal for Roy Halladay – that said – the talk about Halladay vs. Johnson/Hernandez is somewhat similar to the discussions about whether the Yankees should have gotten Schilling or Vazquez.

    Now, the D’Backs wanted a lot more for Schilling than the Yankees ended up giving up for Javy, but just remember that Javy was considered a can’t miss stud pitcher at the time. He was going to be the guy to lead the transition away from older pitchers like Clemens and Wells to a younger rotation. It didn’t really work out that way.

  88. blake November 25th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    Much rather keep Hughes.

  89. Wave Your Hat November 25th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    I’m not ready to buy the conventional wisdom on what it will take to get Halladay.

    The nearest comps for a Halladay deal are the Santana and Cliff Lee trades. Considering what the Twins got for Santana, and what the Indians got for Lee, I don’t think the Red Sox would necessarily have to give up Buchholtz, or the Yanks give up Joba or Hughes, to get Halladay.

  90. Yanksgal07 November 25th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    I just want to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving…may it be filled with love and happiness..may you be filled with the turkey and trimmings ..ENJOY !!!

    Go Yankees 2010 !!!!

  91. MB November 25th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Spot on Sam.

  92. RMEL November 25th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    I only want to hear two names. King Felix or Josh Johnson. That’s it.

    ——

    Im totally with that….I would think if it would take Buchholz and Kelly it should take Joba and a prospect like Arodys Vizcaino…both Kelly and Vizcaino are in the same boat and Vizcaino is a year younger

  93. Mark in Tampa November 25th, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Chip,

    I might be inclined to take another shot at Vazquez, except for one thing-he was not very good with CWS either, so it wasn’t just a wrong fit, wrong time thing with NY. I think you were right when you said he is destined to be an NL only pitcher.

  94. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    I think Cashman regrets not getting Santana and now would be the perfect time to make up for that.

    Why would Cashman regret that?

    If he had gotten Johan then he wouldn’t have gotten CC this past winter. I would say CC has worked out quite well while Johan – as good as he is – has to be handled with kid gloves and has had a myriad of injuries.

    He didn’t have to give up Phil Hughes – who was a key player for the Yankees out of the pen.

    Jeff Marquez was used as part of a package to bring in Nick Swisher

    Melky Cabrera ended up starting in CF and had a number of key hits throughout the season.

  95. RMEL November 25th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    other thing…. i would think that Seattle and Florida would consider King Felix or JJ if the Yankees would offer a Package of Joba,Vizcaino, Melancon and Kennedy….I mean that 4 pitchers for one who has only 2 year before becoming a FA

  96. Neil November 25th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    If 40-man roster space needs to be created due to free agent signings or player trades, the 1st candidates to be removed should be Edwar Ramirez and Christian Garcia with Brian Bruney on the bubble unless he’s used as part of a deal.
    There’s 11 more days until the winter meetings begin in Indianapolis.

  97. bernie williams November 25th, 2009 at 11:16 am

    There’s no way I would trade any of our prospects for Halladay, knowing that we can get a younger pitcher like Lackey sign him for 4+ years (paying less than Doc’s extension) and keep all the kids at home.

    Of course Lackey is not close to Doc, but he’s still very dominat and knows how to pitch in AL.

    Just stop and think what would you guys prefer:
    Halladay or a combo of Lackey, Hughes, Joba, Ajax…

    no brainer, go after Lackey and lets wait for the next ring

  98. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    Slightly different take:

    If the Yankees are going to trade for a pitcher in his 30s I think there’s a better chance of them looking to the great state of Texas and dealing for either Kevin Millwood or Roy Oswalt.

    And to be honest – I would prefer Millwood. I think he’ll come cheaper in terms of prospects and I don’t think it would take a great leap to get Josh Daniels to include either David Murphy or CJ Wilson or both.

  99. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    Ok ok ok – I know – I was there in 04 and I know.
    =====

    If you mean Game 7 ALCS in ’04 then this is a ridiculous comment on Javy.

    Torre should have been torched for bringing in a starter to a bases-loaded situation, vs., no less, a LHB who had previously killed him. We did not lose that game because of Vasquez – who would have been an infinitely better choice to start the game than Kevin Brown.

    We did lose the SERIES because we had no LHP. Game 7 was not on Javy.

  100. blake November 25th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    I don’t think cashman regrets not trading for Santana because it was the right move at the time and he was able to get CC a year later and give up nothing but money.

  101. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    Neil
    November 25th, 2009 at 11:11 am
    If 40-man roster space needs to be created due to free agent signings or player trades, the 1st candidates to be removed should be Edwar Ramirez and Christian Garcia with Brian Bruney on the bubble unless he’s used as part of a deal.
    There’s 11 more days until the winter meetings begin in Indianapolis.
    ====

    Chris Garcia grouped with E-Ram? Are you for real?

  102. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    Neil,

    In the last string there was a comment that Cashman is going to the Winter Meetings looking to make 2 for 1 deals to free up some space on the 40 man roster.

    I fully expect a pitcher (Ian Kennedy?) and one of the myriad of infielders to be moved before too much longer; either for a back end starter or an outfielder.

  103. damon enjoy 27...think 28 November 25th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    http://www.bases.nbcsports.com sports/baseball
    Article:Damon to the press,Tell Yankees I want to sign.

    I believe the Newsday story was all Boras telling Damon what to say.
    Damon wants to stay,betcha.I don’t like the idea of a disgruntled player ,who feels cheated being on the team.

  104. Mike RI November 25th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    From SI.Com
    The Red Sox are making a push to obtain Toronto ace Roy Halladay before the start of baseball’s winter meetings Dec. 7, according to industry sources. But the Blue Jays reportedly want top prospect Casey Kelly along with young starter Clay Buchholz. The Sox could retreat from the deal if the Blue Jays continue to demand Kelly. The 20-year-old was their first pick in the 2006 draft and signed for $3 million.

  105. raymagnetic November 25th, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Ohh, eff it.

    Burn the farm DOWN and sign EVERYBODY.

    Get Halladay, sign Holliday, trade for Sizemore, sign Lackey, and trade for Crawford.

    Bring the payroll to around $275 million and really be the Bad Guys of baseball.

    Jeter
    Sizemore
    Tex
    Arod
    Holliday
    Posada
    Cano
    Swisher
    Crawford

    Halladay
    CC
    Lackey
    AJ
    Kennedy

    There you go. WS champs next 4/5 years.

  106. blake November 25th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    Kevin millwood.. Seriously..

  107. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    and he was able to get CC a year later and give up nothing but money.

    Same could be said for this situation too.

    Let’s say for the sake of argument that Halladay goes to Boston. You think there’s any chance that Boston is going to be able to sign him, Beckett, and Victor Martinez?

    Odds are Beckett hits the FA market and the the Yankees can get him – or Cliff Lee – in the winter of 2010.

  108. Ed - campaigning for Josh Willingham (it worked for Chad Guadin) November 25th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    “I only want to hear two names. King Felix or Josh Johnson. That’s it.”

    then what’s Tim Lincecum? chop liver? if I have to give up Huges and Joba, i better get back Lincecum in return. Timmy’s payday is coming up in a week. if the Giants situation turned out to be like the Marlins, Cashman better get on the phone.

  109. champ809 November 25th, 2009 at 11:24 am

    Chip

    please do not start with bringing in junk like Brian Bannister..PLEASE!

    I’d prefer to keep Joba over Hughes but would much prefer that we keep Joba,Hughes,AJax and Montero and break all of them into the roster over the next season as we will ne a much stronger organization over the next 2-7yrs as a result of that. I’d like Halladay on my team but not at the cost of the talent and the $ he would cost. If Boston gets him then that would mean that they are letting Beckett walk as they will not field a staff with potentially four $20mm+ pitchers in Halladay,Becks,Lester and Dice-K.
    I also hate how we always have yo give up more when trying to acquire the same players as other organizations;

    Joba/Hughes+AJax/Montero> Bucholtz+Casey Kelly+Kalish it’s not even close in terms of quality and upside

  110. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 11:27 am

    Just for fun:

    Yankees trade Joba, Melky and Austin Jackson to Cleveland for Grady Sizemore and Shin Soo Choo

    Yankees sign John Lackey

    Yankees sign Matt Holliday

    Lineup:
    Jeter
    Sizemore – CF
    Tex
    Alex
    Holliday – LF
    Posada
    Cano
    Swisher – DH
    Choo – RF

    Rotation:

    CC, Lackey, AJ, Andy, Hughes

  111. RickD November 25th, 2009 at 11:27 am

    I live in south fl-If the yanks could get Johnson thats the way i would go-He is young,big,and throws hard

  112. EL Duque November 25th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Please CASh don´t trade Hughes or JOBA!

    They will rule the League! Promise!

  113. Erin November 25th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    damon enjoy 27…think 28
    November 25th, 2009 at 11:20 am
    http://www.bases.nbcsports.com sports/baseball
    Article:Damon to the press,Tell Yankees I want to sign.

    I believe the Newsday story was all Boras telling Damon what to say.

    ****************************
    I agree. That Newsday piece just screamed Boras.

  114. NYYROC November 25th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    “Bernie Williams”: You make a good point. Everyone gets lured by the “big name” of Halladay, but if you are going to have to pay another pitcher $18MM-$20MM why not just buy Lackey. He is not as good as Doc but he is very good and playoff tested. Plus the team keeps Joba, PH etc. Overall the team is stronger.

  115. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    raymagnetic
    November 25th, 2009 at 11:21 am
    Ohh, eff it.
    Burn the farm DOWN and sign EVERYBODY.
    ====

    I’m as cynical as you are. But unlike that Santana winter, where I and several others on another site were hoarse from a “Save Phil Hughes” effort, I now have a quiet confidence that Cashman will stay the course. I just don’t see Halladay going down.

  116. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    following up on my last post – in the winter of 2010 – the Yankees can replace Posada and Andy with Mauer and Cliff Lee.

  117. Mark in Tampa November 25th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    If we don’t trade for Halladay, we will have a 2010 rotation that is not as good as the ’09 rotation was supposed to be, but better than the way it turned out.

    2010-CC, AJ, Andy, Joba, Phil is not as good as-

    CC, AJ, Wang, Andy, and Joba-that is what ’09 was supposed to be, but turned into-CC, AJ, Andy, Joba, bum of the week. Obviously, they won 103 and the WS with that. They most certainly can win with the same rotation plus Hughes. Like any pitching staff in history, they will need good fortune in health, with or w/o Halladay or anybody else.

  118. damon enjoy 27...think 28 November 25th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    Damon tells mlb.mlb.com/news NY Yankees that he could play for 10 more years…..OMG!

  119. 86w183 November 25th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    I would love Halladay, but agree with many that if the price involves two of the top four guys (AJax, Joba, Hughes, Montero) on top of huge $$$ I’d pass.

    Lackey is almost as good, will cost less money and no prospects except for draft picks. If the Yanks bring back Pettite the rotation will be so loaded they can afford to give a youngster a chance at LF or DH. If not, they still have financial flexibility and have successfully gotten younger.

    Chip — Please stop writing that Sabathia is getting more money next year. He’s not. He was paid $ 23 Million last year and will be paid the same in 2010. Teixiera actually will be paid $ 5 Million less in 2010 than he got in 2009 although for luxury tax purposes it is calculated on the annual average.

  120. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    2010-CC, AJ, Andy, Joba, Phil

    Not sure that’s going to be the rotation. I think Phil is going to start in AAA to monitor his IP.

    There’s still the chance that the Yankees will add another pitcher (Lackey, Sheets, etc…)

  121. Erin November 25th, 2009 at 11:36 am

    Chip
    November 25th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    Not sure that’s going to be the rotation. I think Phil is going to start in AAA to monitor his IP.

    ****************
    I don’t think Hughes will start in AAA. I believe Cashman said is IP will not be as restricted as Joba’s were.

  122. Mike RI November 25th, 2009 at 11:38 am

    If you sign Lackey, you force the Angles to get in on Halladay therefore forcing a bidding war between Anehiem and Boston.

  123. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    Chip — Please stop writing that Sabathia is getting more money next year. He’s not. He was paid $ 23 Million last year and will be paid the same in 2010.

    According to Cot’s you’re wrong. http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.c.....60040.html

    As you’ll see from that link, in 09 CC made $14 mil and gets $23 mil from 10-15.

    Tex’s salary remains static at $20 mil next year

    Cano gets a 3 mil bump

    Swisher gets another mil

  124. CR9 November 25th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    I hope it does not come to fruition, but if it does, the stinkstiffing done by Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus, and ESPN (namely Peter Gammons) will have had an effect.

    Sam reminded me with his comment about “Theo really loves Kelly” comment. Other people in the media (namely ESPN) spew that Epstein loves this guy, and does not want to part with that guy. That is the most ridiculous thing that ESPN ever says. Hey ESPN, Brian Cashman loves Andrew Brackman and Austin Jackson. Is that supposed to give them more value, because the GM of the team loves them.

    I guess the only good thing that can come out of a possible trade is that we finally get to see the real Clay Buchholz with the Jays. He will be a 70 pitches, 5 ER in 3 innings pitcher with any team not named the Red Sox.

  125. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    Erin –

    I hope you’re right.

  126. Paco Dooley November 25th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    You can’t compare this to the Clemens deal. He was great in NY after his first season, but he was also juiced to the max. You take steroids away from Clemens and you probably have an ageing mediocre player, who was jettisoned by the Red Sox earlier in his career.

  127. CR9 November 25th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    Chip, on top of that $14 mil, he got a $9 mil signing bonus, IIRC.

  128. m November 25th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    I’d be wary of trading for a NL pitcher. Halladay is an ace in the AL East.

    Josh Johnson sounds like a possibility as the Fish are lowballing JJ, but the price in prospects would be high, high, high.

    Also, just because Cash didn’t do something 2 years ago, doesn’t mean he’ll do the same thing everytime.

    I think the money (risk due to age) it would take to do an extension would be the most prohibitive factor in Halladay’s case.

  129. bernie williams November 25th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    Just for fun

    Yankees sign Lackey
    Yankees trade joba+ajax+… for Sizemore
    Yankees sign Cameron

    Jeter
    Sizemore
    Tex
    Alex
    Posada
    Cano
    Cameron
    Swisher
    Melky

    CC, Lackey, AJ, Pettitte, Hughes, Brackman

  130. Doreen November 25th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    Sam, I just read your post. I haven’t read any comments yet, so forgive me if I’m just repeating something someone else has said.

    BUT -

    Roy Halladay pretty much owns the New York Yankees. This wouldn’t be the Red Sox just getting a solid #1 pitcher; it would be about being able to almost guarantee shutting down the Yankees offense on several occasions. When Halladay did it for Toronto, it didn’t mean all that much because the two teams were not in competition for the division. For him to do it with the Red Sox, well, that’s another story altogether.

    So, in this case, blocking the Red Sox, somehow, anyhow, is not an unreasonable thing to try and do.

    Perhaps it’s like the Santana deal, with both teams making sure neither one gets him?

    If the Red Sox are serious, and if they have the pieces the interest the Blue Jays, then that automatically makes Halladay a must have for the Yankees, and I’d be willing to see Chamberlain and Austin Jackson go.

    What I hope happens is the Red Sox really don’t have anything that interests the Jays, or are not willing to part with a particular piece, and neither the Yankees nor the Red Sox end up with him.

  131. Stan November 25th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    The hidden factor in Boston landing Halladay is what affect it will have on supposedly their No. 1 starter, Josh Beckett.
    Boston will most certainly need to do at least a 3-4 deal with Halladay for at least $15M per which wouldn’t excite Beckett. He then becomes 2nd class status with his option year of 2010 earning $10M and facing free agent status after 2010. Theo Epstein risks opening up a can of worms and can’t expect to sign Beckett again.
    It ends up as a possible short term fix plus losing Buchholz and Kelly. Color a deal of Halladay to Boston as blowing smoke.

  132. Phil November 25th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    We’ll probably see a loss in velocity from that great arm of Johnny’s in 10 yrs. What a shame.

  133. bernie williams November 25th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    CHIP: There’s still the chance that the Yankees will add another pitcher (Lackey, Sheets, etc…)

    —-

    what about lackey and harden?

  134. CR9 November 25th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    This is the problem with Baseball America and Prospectus and ESPN, when one of the Red Sox prospects leave, like say Casey Kelly, they regenerate as Stolmy Pimentel or Ryan Kalish or Anthony Rizzo. They get spoken about in the media as if they are something, and with all the talk, they become something (trade chips).

    GB talks about the Yankees prospects like ESPN talks about Red Sox prospects, except he actually recognizes the Yankee prospects’ strengths and weaknesses. I only wish GB could have a place in the media to spew positive Yankee farm system news, the way ESPN stinksniffs every Red Sox non prospect.

  135. 86w183 November 25th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Chip his SALARY was $ 14 Million. He also got a $ 9 Million signing bonus so he was PAID $ 23 Million.

    It’s not difficult math.

  136. disco stu November 25th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    If the Yankees are required to sign Halladay to a contract extention to secure any trade they are considering, then I dont see how they can get it done.

    The Yankees dont offer contract extentions to their own players, let alone someone coming from another team.

    With Jeter and Mo in their walk years, how would Cashman justify offering Halladay a contract extention but refusing to do it for his two future Hall of Famers who (BTW) just helped the Yankees win ANOTHER WS?

    What sort of message does that send to Jeter and Mo … and Girardi, for that matter?

    The only way I can see the Yankees realistically getting Halladay for 2010 would be if they are willing to get him for one year and then try and re-sign him as a FA. In that scenario, I dont see the Yankees offering much of a package for fear that they dont resign him and they waste giving up all that talent for someone they only have for 1 season … so the price for Halladay would have to basically drop off the cliff for the Yankees to bite.

  137. Mike RI November 25th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    I’d rather see the Yanks sign Lackey.. if not .. Sheets or Harden would be a nice choice .

  138. 86w183 November 25th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    Also Tex was PAID $ 25 Million in 2009. $ 20 Million in salary and a $ 5 Million bonus so he, indeed costs less in 2010 though his luxury tax calculation is $ 22.5/per.

  139. raymagnetic November 25th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    Bodhi,

    I think Cashman stays the course as well. But since everyone else was throwing out trade proposals I figured why not add one in there myself.

  140. Mark in Tampa November 25th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    “CC, Lackey, AJ, Pettitte, Hughes, Brackman”

    Brackman will be lucky to ever start 1 ML game, let alone be a starter in 2010 at the ML level.

    His freshman year of college-10 appearances
    Sophomore-7 appearances
    Junior-78 innings
    Pro ball-106 innings total

    He is a project, he has barely thrown a ML season of innings since he left high school. His best hope may be as a reliever, since he does have a big arm; but all accounts have him a long way from gaining the necessary experience to even be an effective AA starter.

  141. Erin November 25th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    disco stu-great post. I hadn’t even thought of the extension, and what that would say to Jeter, Mo, etc. Yet another reason while I just don’t see it happening.

  142. Neil November 25th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    Chip -

    Talk sense. The Yankees are not going to be in on any Mauer talk.
    The Twins open up a new venue in 2010 (Target Field), will have the added revenue to open the vault in signing the St. Paul, Minnesota native to a similar deal that Teixeira got.
    The whole world knows the Yankees have no catching woes for many years even if Montero is at another position.
    Cliff Lee however, is a possibility.

  143. Sal November 25th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Don’t pay twice Cash ! Don’t pay twice !

  144. YankeeFan4Eva November 25th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Please dont ever say Cameron’s name again. Do not get him..PLEASEE~!!!

  145. Erin November 25th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    edit: why, not “while”

  146. damon enjoy 27...think 28 November 25th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    The Toronto Star, http://thestar.com doesn’t have a current article on Halladay,they do say the Pres Beeston’s comments the other day fueled the rumors.

    The Toronto sun.com hasn’t a current article either.

    All this is hyperbole.

  147. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 11:59 am

    YankeeFan4Eva-What’s your problem with Cameron?

  148. Phil November 25th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    Halladay has a full NTC and I’d be very surprised if Toronto ends up with 2 top prospects let alone one.

  149. champ809 November 25th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Chip

    they Yanks in theory could replace Posada and Pettite with Mauer and Lee sure….

    in the REAL World that is not much of an option and even less of one if we trade away Joba/Hughes/AJax and every other low cost player we have and acquire and sign Halladay @ 21mm and sign Holliday for 18mm.

    There isn’t any team in baseball that can have a roster of 15 or so guys thatmake between 15 and 30mm a year. Please wake up.
    In that scenario your top 4 pitchers make between 18mm-AJ and 23MM-CC with Halladay and Lee @ roughly 20mm per….

    your lineup would be;
    Jeet SS-20mm
    Cano 2b-12mm
    Mauer C-20mm
    Arod 3b-32mm
    Tex 1b-22mm
    Holliday LF-18mm
    Posada DH-15mm
    Swish RF-9mm
    Melky CF-3mm

    how ridiculous does this seem to you… a great fantasy lineup you’d crush your league with this but as it has to be obvious THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN in REAl world sports!

  150. CR9 November 25th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    Phil

    Buchholz and Kelly are 2 bottom prospects, not top prospects.

  151. Erin November 25th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    damon enjoy 27…think 28
    November 25th, 2009 at 11:58 am
    The Toronto Star, http://thestar.com doesn’t have a current article on Halladay,they do say the Pres Beeston’s comments the other day fueled the rumors.

    The Toronto sun.com hasn’t a current article either.

    All this is hyperbole.

    *******************
    I figured as much. :)

  152. Patrick the Prospect Hugger November 25th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Enough is enough, my name is back in action. Halladay? No thanks.

  153. Chip November 25th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Chip his SALARY was $ 14 Million. He also got a $ 9 Million signing bonus so he was PAID $ 23 Million.

    I am aware – however the Yankees are intent on keeping the payroll at it’s current levels so to avoid luxury tax issues, as you say, for bookkeeping purposes CC makes 9 mil more next season – which means the Yankees have less money to spend if they want to maintain the current payroll level.

  154. CR9 November 25th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    champ809, why can’t we trade McAllister and Betances to get deals done and then have our farm system replenished with new names put forth by Baseball Prospectus and ESPN like Ryan Kalish or Tony Rizzo or Tim Federowicz?

  155. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    “As you’ll see from that link, in 09 CC made $14 mil and gets $23 mil from 10-15.”

    For luxury tax purposes, he was on the books for $14M this year. He was indeed paid $23M in total. He’ll be on the books for $23M plus a prorated portion of his bonus for the next six years of his deal. It’ll work out to $24.3M a year in the books, but he’ll be paid $23M.

  156. m November 25th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    Phil,

    You make a great point. I think the situation in Toronto is beyond repair for Halladay, even for one season. While it’s true that Doc can squash any destination, he would probably welcome a chance to go to a contender. Whether it’s for a year or more than that might dictate where he ends up.

  157. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    Its pretty simple. Check in on the asking price and if the deal makes your team better without costing an insurmountable number of prospects and dollars, you pull the trigger.

    I can think of far worse possibilities than the Sox ending up with Halladay.

    There is so much talent out there that I’d be hard pressed to believe that adding Halladay would make the Sox a better team than the Yankees. Their bullpen is a joke. Our offense is better, and its not like Cashman is going to stand pat and do nothing this offseason.

  158. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    m,

    Halladay will not be a member of the Blue Jays come Jan. 1st.

  159. jake November 25th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    Great article and definitely true….of course it’s about blocking the red sox, but more so to get the best pitcher in the league…

    I would trade:
    Joba Chamberlain
    Austin Jackson
    Ian Kennedy
    Ramiro Pena

    Yanks would get:
    Roy Halladay
    Vernon Wells + his whole contract…that would be HUGE for the Blue Jays and would give the yankees a legit CF for the time being…everyone knows he can hit and field and he will be playing all on natural grass now, so less injuries for him…you get a good CF and the best pitcher in baseball!!

    look at this rotation:
    CC
    Halladay
    AJ
    Pettite
    Hughes
    ** HOLY CRAP :O** best in baseball

    Lineup:
    Jeter
    Damon
    Tex
    Arod
    Matsui
    Posada
    Cano
    Wells

    Absolutely unbelievable team… repeat WITHOUT A DOUBT

  160. gianthinker November 25th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    I’d want to hold onto JM more if we knew he was a catch. Since he’s projected to move I’d trade him with Joba.

  161. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    Boston’s bullpen is pretty good.

  162. m November 25th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Oops. The team that trades for him will dictate whether it’s a short term rental or a long-term lease.

  163. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Also, I hear the Sox are more interested in Holliday than they are Bay.

    THIS IS GREAT NEWS! Let the Sox get raked over the coals by Boras for an overrated LF. Again, too much talent in baseball to overpay for a guy like Holliday.

  164. jake November 25th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    After i posted my last post, I looked up at what some of you guys are saying…

    IF we dont sign Mike Gonzalez to set up for Rivera, how about keeping Hughes in the set up role and signing Sheets/Harden? both have same risk and around same reward, so it just depends on the agent and the guy…

  165. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Boston’s bullpen is mediocre at best. Don’t be fooled.

    jake,

    If Cashman traded for Halladay and Vernon Wells, he should be shot..more so for the latter. Wells has huge $$$ on his contract and unless Toronto is willing to eat half of whatever is left, no way do we bring in Wells.

  166. blake November 25th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Well there have been compelling arguements on both sides for making a deal for halladay. I personally think they should do it because I think he gives them a great chance to win more titles in the next 3-4 years. When you’re the Yankees I see no reason to worry about anything beyond that because you have the resources to fill whatever holes you have at the time. They aren’t the pirates and they don’t have to make decisions now to compete 7 years from now.

  167. CR9 November 25th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    I just remembered something rather funny.

    When Josh Beckett struggles late this year, and in the 2008 playoffs, ESPN said the word through baseball was “Beckett was injured.”

    So when Beckett is not effective, it’s because he’s injured.

    But when Joba is not good, or CC was not good in the first half of the year, it’s because they can’t handle NY or some other convenient reason for ESPN.

  168. CB November 25th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    The yankees and the red sox continue to do off season business in very different ways.

    The Red Sox leak like a sieve. They are literally in on every player and on every trade. They can acquire any player in the league because they have an infinite supply of infinitely attractive young players that are infinitely affordable.

    The yankees simply don’t leak very much and when they do it’s very selective.

    Right now it doesn’t matter what the Red Sox want. It doesn’t matter what the Jays or Anthopoulos want.

    What matters first and foremost is what Halladay wants. He has the leverage in these triangular negotiations. That’s the bottom line.

    Halladay is 32 and has never played for a winner. He is not only a beast on the mound he is a huge competitor. He can’t be sure of how many more peak years he has in the tank.

    At the same time he’s never gotten a huge money deal.

    Roy is likely going to want to play for the team that 1) has the best chance of making the playoffs/ winning the Series; 2) Will give him a 4-5 year extension at somewhere 92-125M on top of his 16M deal for this year.

    If he doesn’t find that situation he is not going to approve a trade. He has the leverage.

    Boston could make a trade for Roy. But if they do so it will be a watershed moment in the Henry/ Lucchino/ Epstein regime.

    To now they have refused to give any pitchers long term big money deals. They have tried very hard to not trade younger, cost controlled players for veterans.

    Trading for Halladay would completely upend their vaunted organizational discipline and philosophy. It will be strategically moving them away from what they believe has made them successful.

    And here’s the other factor they have to deal with – they actually don’t have many young players to trade. Their farm system at the upper levels isn’t very good.

    Trading buccholz is going to hurt because even if they acquire Halladay they will still need another pitcher. Replacing Bucchholz with Halladay moves a starter for a starter – it doesn’t fill out their rotation.

    Casey Kelly is perhaps the most talked about low minors prospect since Justin Upton. Maybe Alex Rodriguez. He’s pitched for half a season – that’s it. And he split that half season between low A and high A.

    He carries huge risk like any player in the low minors does.

    Their other vaunted prospect Ryan Westmoreland hasn’t even played in low A yet – he’s only played in the Staten Island league.

    This trade is not going to be easy for the Sox to make in any respect. And if they do execute it they will have completely changed the core strategy that made them a success to begin with.

  169. Joe Monte November 25th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    I believe the Dodgers will make a major push for Doc.

  170. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Another thing:

    Why, why, WHY would we sign a Type A reliever? Why on God’s green earth would we sacrifice a first round draft pick for a reliever?

    As Cashman proved last season, the bullpen can be pieced together with in house options. You don’t need to go out and sign a setup man. Give in house guys the opportunity first.

    To sign a Gonzalez or Soriano would be a stupid move on every front.

    No Thanks.

  171. CR9 (Red Sox farm system = When 1 prospect leaves, he regenerates as a new one) November 25th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    I just do not know how the Red Sox do it, their former prospects can miraculously regenerate as new prospects once the former prospects are gone.

  172. damon enjoy 27...think 28 November 25th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    According to the http://www.latimes.com

    Angels and Dodgers are looking into acquiring Halladay!
    Dodgers are considered a looooong shot.

  173. Jacob Ruppert November 25th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    Someone made mention earlier of Red Sox prospect Stolmy Pimentel. I recently read a Peter Gammons article touting Stolmy as an option for the 2011 Red Sox rotation alongside Casey Kelly. It saddens me more and more every day that ESPN is nothing more than a Red Sox or Boston in general propaganda machine. When a guy named Stolmy Pimentel’s name is pulled out of one of Peter’s random orifices and fed to the public as an actual prospect, your organization has lost all credibility.

  174. blake November 25th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    If holliday had never played in Oakland I would love see now opinions in him would be different. People put way too much stock in half a season on a bad team.. The guy is a really good player and fills several needs the Yankees have and you give up zero prospects to get him. He hit .322 in 80+ games during interleague play against the AL if that makes any of you feel better.

  175. joeman November 25th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    If the Yankees could get Halladay for Joba and Austin Jackson, I would do it.

    you and me both…

  176. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    blake,

    I tend to lean towards agreeing with you on this one.

    When we could have had Santana, there were so many other questions surrounding the team that it just didn’t present itself as the kind of deal that would “get us there”. On top of that, he was expensive, Hughes wasn’t worth sacrificing, and we were several pieces removed from a championship team with or w/o Santana.

    We just won the World Series and Halladay would give us a second Ace.

    Its a tough decision either way, but I truly hope that Cashman doesn’t consider it simply for the sake of blocking the Sox. I am sure he won’t, but it has to be in the back of his mind at the very least.

    I consider this opportunity similar to the 98 offseason when the Yankees traded for Clemens…and he was 36!

  177. m November 25th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    CB,

    The Boston wishlist is much longer than their farm system can support.

    Wouldn’t going after Lackey make more sense as far as SP goes?

    Is it possible that Halladay says “I’ll go to the Dodgers/Cardinals/Phillies, but no extension. I’ll go to the Yankees/Red Sox with the 72-hour window to negotiate” or something like that?

  178. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    Boston’s bullpen ERA was 3.15.

    The Yankees’ bullpen ERA was 3.35 (I’m not counting several pitchers on both teams who only pitched like 5 innings).

    Boston’s bullpen was better.

  179. CR9 (Red Sox farm system = When 1 prospect leaves, he regenerates as a new one) November 25th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    There’s this mythical beast that if you cut off one head, it grows another. I forgot the name, but that’s the Red Sox farm sytem. Cut off one head of Lars Anderson, and what grows back is Ryan Kalish.

  180. PittsburghYankeeFan November 25th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Sox do not have the prospects for Halliday. Bucholtz and Kelly? Please. If the Jays GM takes that one, he should be fired on the spot.

    If the Sox decided to take on Vernon Wells and his abomination of a contract as well, now you’re talking.

    So the Sox get Halliday. Then they would have to match it with Beckett for 2011, or what is their rotation? Halliday and Dice K?

    That would be interesting, and a total departure from the way the Sox do business.

  181. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    “When Josh Beckett struggles late this year, and in the 2008 playoffs, ESPN said the word through baseball was “Beckett was injured.””

    He was definitely hurt in ’08.

    He definitely wasn’t in ’09 though.

  182. blake November 25th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    Mad prince. Cashman has been quoted as saying that one of the reasons he didn’t do the Santana deal was because they weren’t good enough to win at that time anyway.. That’s not the case now..

  183. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    blake,

    That is exactly what I was getting at…

  184. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    CR9-You’re thinking of the hydra.

  185. Patrick the Prospect Hugger November 25th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    Good stuff CB, I agree it will be tough for the Red Sox to make that deal.

    If they want to they could and by all means go for it. Waste all your prospects and money on Halladay and leave gaping holes at LF, SS, 3B, and DH.

  186. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    “Halliday and Dice K?”

    Lester?

  187. CB November 25th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    “The Boston wishlist is much longer than their farm system can support.

    Wouldn’t going after Lackey make more sense as far as SP goes?”

    m,

    You’re exactly right. Boston’s offense is a huge problem – and likely to get worse.

    They simply don’t score runs outside of Fenway. They are stuck with Ortiz and Lowell.

    They trade Buchholz for Halladay there is no way they can trade for Adrian Gonzalez.

    Their hitting – especially their power hitting – is very limited.

    It would be much more efficient for them to sign Lackey – as long as they believe his elbow is ok.

    A rotation of Lester, Beckett, Lackeye, Buchholz, and Wakefield is much deeper than a rotation of Halladay, Lester, Beckett, Wakefield, and filler.

    If you’re counting on Wakefield in the rotation you need 4 other starters you can count on because you know Tim is going to get hurt.

    These leaks to a NY reporter seem like leaks directed to get attention.

    I’m sure they’re interested in Halladay – just like they were in Felix Hernandez.

    But the subtext of Feinsand’s report is this old notion that the Sox can trade for any player and do so on their terms because they are managerial geniuses.

    The Red Sox are making a “big push…” What does that even mean and why would you even leak that?

  188. joeman November 25th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    if they did take on Wells & Doc…can’t see either Damon or Matusi being sign back, move Melky over to LF

  189. Jacob Ruppert November 25th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    CR9
    I believe the mythical beast you are referring to is called the Hydra. When Hercules cut off one of its heads, another one grew back.

  190. braeden November 25th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Look at the players payroll for the Sawx.They look for retreads or bargains.The use of the Halladay rumor is for beantown to raise his price.I lookend at some of their contracts and beantown has been -cheap- fugal.

  191. blake November 25th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Maybe its just me but I want Jeter and Rivera etc.. to won more titles. I’m fans of those guys just like I’m a Yankee fan. I don’t want to see the Yankees wait around on Joba or Jackson or Hughes to maybe turn in to good players while Jeter and company get old. Go and win now before age opens up new holes in different places.

  192. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    “The Red Sox are making a “big push…” What does that even mean and why would you even leak that?”

    Why presume that they did?

  193. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    CB, I think you forgot Dice K in that rotation…

  194. BigJoe44 November 25th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Great discussion going on today.

    I have to agree with Fuser who said that the Yankees were more than one player away from the World Series when Cashman passed on Santana. Both Chamberlain and Hughes (along with Kennedy) were going to be our saviors, and there was no way any Yankee fan wanted them traded. OK, maybe a few would have done it. The Big 3 are now comparable to Ford, GM, and Chrysler. There is still hope that they can be superstars, but maybe a bailout is in order.

    As far as Jake’s prosposed trade to get Halladay and Wells, I think they can both help the Yankees, but we could get that deal done for way less. I don’t think Chamberlain, Hughes, or AJax would be involved. I personally would like to see Halladay and Wells in pinstripes, but that is a lot of payroll to add. Fortunately, it’s not my money, except when I make a trip to see a game.

  195. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    Is anyone else seeing the similarity between the potential Halladay trade and the 1998 trade for Roger Clemens?

    It appears to me that this is an extremely similar situation with potentially similar ramifications if we pull the trigger (i.e. more Championships).

  196. joeman November 25th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    Joba will be a average RP or SP nothing more

  197. braden November 25th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    edit: fugal=frugal

  198. Wait till we do it all Over Again November 25th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    “Maybe its just me…”

    Yep. I root for the laundry. I’m sure I’ll find it in my heart to love whatever players are in a Yankees uniform.

  199. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    “Is anyone else seeing the similarity between the potential Halladay trade and the 1998 trade for Roger Clemens?”

    Over 5 years with the Yankees, Clemens made a little more than 40% of what Hallday will require and the Yankees would have to trade legit prospects instead of fodder. Otherwise, they’re pretty similar.

  200. CB November 25th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    “Why presume that they did?”

    I’m not in any way. That was the point of my post.

    I was commenting on the reporting, the perceptions being formed, and the likely leaking of rumors not the likely substantive issues.

  201. 86w183 November 25th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    Halladay can lay out any terms he wants for the Jays. He has total control of the situation.

    There are so many unknowns about his wishes/desires and the Jays’ financial pressures to do anything but bat around scenarios that may or may not have any chance on earth of happening.

    Would be helpful to know Pettite’s intentions before making any major decisions regarding pitching this off-season.

  202. Pat M. November 25th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    The BoSox are fighting for their 2010 Wild Card lives this winter……They need either a 3rd baseman or a 1st baseman….They need a leftfielder, a SS, at least 1 reliever ….Their rotation is their strength, so I find this Doc Halladay chatter to be just that, fireside chatter on a dreary Thanksgiving Eve in Beantown…..

  203. Squidward November 25th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    “I was commenting on the reporting, the perceptions being formed, and the likely leaking of rumors not the likely substantive issues.”

    Got it.

  204. joeman November 25th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Wells is around 5 mil a year, had a bad year in 09, was hurt in 08 only had 425 AB…will be 31 in Dec, I would take him on with Doc & move Melky to LF & sign either Damon or Matsui to DH

  205. CB November 25th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    “I think you forgot Dice K in that rotation…”

    I didn’t. I just don’t think he can be counted on.

    When Dice-K has a strong spring and shows his shoulder is healthy then you can pencil him into the rotation, IMO.

    Otherwise a guy who missed 90% of the season due to a bad shoulder is a big risk.

  206. blake November 25th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    I cheer for the laundry and the players in the laundry. especially when those players are hall of famers that will be impossible to replace with equal production. Which is why doing whatever you can to win now is important. Its not going to be as easy when you don’t have MO sitting out in the bullpen anymore. If you have a chance at a second dynasty them why is that less important than the team 5 years from now

  207. CB November 25th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    “….Their rotation is their strength, so I find this Doc Halladay chatter to be just that, fireside chatter on a dreary Thanksgiving Eve in Beantown…..”

    Pat M.,

    As usual you’re on the mark.

    The Sox literally have no SS right now. And there’s no SS available on the market that’s attractive and JJ Hardy has been traded.

    They are going to either pay big money in LF or settle for much lesser production.

    They have a number of holes.

    Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball but there’s a real argument to be made that he would be a misallocation of resources for the Sox to acquire in a trade given competing needs.

    The same could be said for the yanks.

  208. ANSKY November 25th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Could we please throw Kei Igawa into any Halladay deal as a bonus? Never mind unloading him at cost to Toronto … no no no that’d be a clear deal-breaker. I’d suggest paying the rest of his contract too. Just give him away as a freebie.

    What NY would gain from that is, Toronto would have one pitcher that gets pounded every time we play them. Right now he’s winning nothing for the big league club down in Scranton. He’s just winning AAA games. In Toronto at least he’d be good for a few major league ‘wins’ a year.

    For all NY’s paid and still owes him, at least they’d finally be able to win some games pitched by Igawa.

  209. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 25th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    Squidward,

    You can’t really compare the salaries form 98 to now…the increase across baseball has been insane over the past 10 years.

    Prospect wise, you’re absolutely right…not sure you’d even call Bush a prospect and Lloyd certainly wasn’t. But David Wells was pretty darned good at that point…certainly no Clemens, but legitimately good.

  210. Patrick the Prospect Hugger November 25th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    “Boston’s bullpen ERA was 3.15.
    The Yankees’ bullpen ERA was 3.35 (I’m not counting several pitchers on both teams who only pitched like 5 innings).
    Boston’s bullpen was better. ”

    You can’t pick and choose which pitchers to look at.

    2009 Bullpen ERA’s:

    Red Sox – 3.80
    Yankees – 3.91

    Ok so for the entire year the Red Sox were slightly better. However, lets look at the month-by-month splits.

    April

    Red Sox – 2.88
    Yankees – 6.46

    May

    Red Sox – 3.04
    Yankees – 4.04

    June

    Yankees – 2.63
    Red Sox – 3.82

    July

    Red Sox – 2.99
    Yankees – 3.99

    August

    Yankees – 4.12
    Red Sox – 4.69

    September/October

    Yankees – 2.87
    Red Sox – 4.92

    Postseason

    Yankees – 15 ER in 46.1 innings for an ERA of 2.91
    Red Sox – 7 ER in 7.1 innings for an ERA of 8.59

    So as you can see, the Yankee ERA was skewed because of a bad April and as the season went on the Yankees bullpen got better as the Red Sox pen got worse. If you go month by month the Red Sox have a better bullpen ERA in 3 months and the Yankees are better in 3 months.

    Then when it really counts (the playoffs) the Yanks had a much better pen.

    Bottom line, I think it’s a stretch to say the Red Sox had a better bullpen.

  211. DaSaint007 November 25th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    Halladay to the Red Sox may be a hedge against them losing Josh Beckett in Free Agency after this season, unless they offer Beckett a moster contract also. Could boston support 3 monster contracts for their rotation (Halladay, Beckett, and Dice-K?). I don’t think so, but if they do, I don’t EVER want to hear a peep about Yankee spending.

    I hope they get him. Face it, he can only face the Yankees 4 times a year in the regular season. You want to mortgage the farm for that AND another $100+ million contract?

    Not me.

  212. ANSKY November 25th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    If you trade Joba to Toronto, first sign him to as much of an extension as you can legally offer that prohibits him from then being traded to Boston. Just in case he becomes an ace. I’m not convinced he won’t. I’m guessing he’ll become a more reliable, 200-inning pitcher in 2011 or 2012.

  213. 86w183 November 25th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    joeman — Vernon Wells has five years and $ 107 Million left on his contract. I wouldn’t go near that thing unless we got Halladay and Wells for Igawa and Wells agreed to pay $ 10 Million a year to Halladay.

  214. melky gardner November 25th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    I seem to recall this strategy not working out so well in the first half of the decade. Halladay is 32. He is at his peak and there is only one way to go from here.

    That said, I might be convinced to part with Joba.

    Hughes, no way. Ajack, no way. Jesus Montero? No @#$%# way.

  215. Patrick the Prospect Hugger November 25th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    I don’t really want Halladay to be quite honest.

    He’s 32, is going to cost a ton of money and a ton of prospects and the Yankees have other needs.

    Is the marginal value between Hughes or Joba starting 30 games and Halladay starting 30 games really equal to an extra $20 million and 3-4 top prospects? No chance.

  216. York yankee November 25th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Keep the youth, sign chapman.
    Much more fun to watch developing staff than mortgaging future. I love Doc, but not worth it.

  217. Brian casmen (GM of NYY) November 25th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    As I see fans on this blog sugesting all kind of trades I teach you something, as a GM the 1st thing you have to know is “sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war”, a lot of you fans wants Roy Haladay because…..if we don’t get him boston will……,let’s take it slowly we have 2 aces in our staff (remember AJ’s game vs. Becket?) So we don’t need another ace,additional to this if we do get haladay because this will make us stronger…think of this, in 2 yrs from now we’ll have an ace of 31 yrs old & after him we’ll have 2 35 year old pitchers….at the other hand boston will have Becket,make a deal for king Felix/Johnson/Grienky/Etc, then they will have lester & Dice-K, so we’ll have locked up big bucks on aging vets with no room to add salary & boston will have a solid young 4…..let boston get Haladay & empty their farm then throw big bucks @ him & we’ll have a solid young pitching staff sprinkled with a few vets, JUST LEAVE IT UP TO ME I’M GETTING PAID FOR THIS JOB & NONE OF YOU DO!!!!!!!

  218. Abdababdaserser November 25th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    Boston has kept Buchholz in the minors for longer than would be needed in a year when they had Penny and Smoltz doing poorly enough that the RS released them and ate that money rather than bring him up earlier. He came up and looked great, then the league figured him out because his success was in large part to pitching “backwards”. The more he is seen the worse his results.

    He is listed in almost every single trade proposal of the Sox. Afterward, when no deal goes down they claim they want to keep him. That should raise red flags all over the place. Buchholz has some talent, but it doesn’t come close to the hype Gammons and crew were spouting about him.

    The Red Sox leak trade rumors and moves they are looking at all the time. It was one of the reasons Teixeira specifically mentioned that he didn’t like regarding Boston pursuing him.

    Boston has a number of holes to fill. Their farm system is decent, but they don’t have the pieces to fill their needs, nor do they have enough in quality arms to make trades with other clubs.

    I don’t see them having enough to trade for Cabrera. Papelbon isn’t all that helpful to the Tigers and their money situation, as he is a relief pitcher and coming up on FA years. His salary isn’t going to be cheap, and the Tigers lose their main offense bat that plays every day.

    Cashman may or may not be willing to trade one of the young guns for Halladay. No one here knows what his plans are, and he isn’t leaking. He is stealth, unlike Boston who feel they have to trumpet each and every thought they have.

    If Cashman does make a trade, I can see Joba being one of the pieces that goes. There is a bit of hesitation there because the big boy has talent. Trouble is he hasn’t been listening. He can be a legitimate ace for the team, or he may just be a great relief pitcher. He needs time to develop and the Yanks might not be as patient waiting on him to come around as the Jays might.

    In an earlier post someone commented that if the Yankees get Halladay then it would lead to a salary cap. So what? Know where the cap would have to be set? Higher than what the Yankees now have as their salary. It would also come with a salary floor. It would also mean that all the owners books would be open to see. If it happens, it does. It will mean more baseball teams being sold because some current owners are looking strictly at profits.

    Overall, I don’t see the Sox getting Halladay. I think it more likely they buy Lackey.

  219. joeman November 25th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    86w183
    November 25th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
    joeman — Vernon Wells has five years and $ 107 Million left on his contract. I wouldn’t go near that thing unless we got Halladay and Wells for Igawa and Wells agreed to pay $ 10 Million a year to Halladay.

    not touching that…

  220. Noreaster November 25th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    I really don’t see the Doc fit with Boston either. Boston was horrible on the road because much of their team lacks the power to play good baseball in an average size park (look at home/road splits for Pedroia, Lowell, etc). They need those players they would give up for Doc to land at least two bats if they are going to compete this year.

    The only way I see them going after Doc is that they see him as a replacement for Beckett and are willing to have a subpar lineup again this year (and hope for the best).

  221. ANSKY November 25th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    If Boston gets Halladay at the expense of Buckholz and a good position player, keeping Dice-K, Lester and Beckett, I think we’re still better.

    Dice-K & Beckett have had problems. I think we’ve already seen the best of those guys. They can still pitch, but not as dominantly as some might worry then will. And who’ll be available in the FA market to take Beckett’s place on their roster when his FA year comes along?

    Keep Joba and Hughes, sign Lackey, give Pettitte another year (extension too?) if he wants it, and land Chapman.

    Hughes & Joba are about a year from being reliable 200-inning pitchers. Chapman is a bit of a gamble, but being only 21 he could be a year or two behind them in terms of being a full time starter.

    CC, AJ, Pettitte, Lackey as 1-4 starters … not bad. Let’s say one gets hurt in the next year or two and DL/stinks for as much as half a year. Hey, we all saw how Wang went down and he was once considered reliable. Pettitte’s been teetering on retirement too. Pick the number 5 starter from Joba/Hughes/Aceves or whomever else raises their game. If any of that the injury/retirement possibilites actually happen over the next couple years (or if CC decides to opt out for 2012) you fill in the blanks with Joba, Hughes, Aceves, Chapman when there’s a need or when they’re ready.

    Overall that puts us way ahead of Boston. Way ahead.

  222. Mocha Joe November 25th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    I don’t think the Yankees need to (or will) add Halladay. Having said that, I think they will sign Lackey instead. Halladay is obviously better, but you have to give up your best prospects in return. Lackey, as an alternative will only cost draft picks and will likely command less per year than a Halladay extension. The Yankees won’t come off as bad if they just sign Lackey (esp if Boston gets him), b/c they will still be able to develop their top prospects to help down the road.

  223. KLev November 25th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    Sam, I agree on all counts.

  224. The Phranchise November 25th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Bucholz is way overated. All you keep hearing is talent with him. His no hitter is now two years removed. He could be a very good pitcher, but the ridiulous #1 type guy is so off base. Even based on the kids personality. And Kelly is in A ball? Is he a pitcher or a hitter? We heard the same crap about how great Lars Anderson was last year, how’s AA treating him? Anyway, it’s the hype machine and putting an unnamed source on this is such a bad article. The Jays would need to be blown away by any trade offer in the division. They aren’t taking low level prospects in the minors as key piece of any trade (we all remember Ian Kennedy blew thru all levels of the same minors in one season). Bucholz hasn’t proved any better than what Joba has done or Hughes. And with the Yankees non-involvement so far why would the Jays make a deal without them. Plus Halladay’s contract at 32, he will not want a 3 year top dollar one like what the Sox will want to spend, he will want more like a six year and the Sox won’t go there even for him. They will lose what remains of their trade chips when they need position players still and they still haven’t signed Bay, Paps is a FA soon, Beckett FA after next year, Victor Martinez is a FA, Lowell is done, they don’t have a SS. They won’t put everything into getting an older pitcher and then need to dip into free agency for all these spots. The article is complete rubbish. And if it wasn’t a Joba, Austin Jackson combo is a much better offer than the Sox two. The Yankees would be providing them with two MLB potential players next year. I still don’t think they trade in the division.

    To me the Angels have the money, have a few free agents. They have Weaver, Santana, Brandon Wood and other prospects they could deal. They could afford the contract. Then they could bring back Lackey. Halladay, Lackey, Saunders, Kazmir and Escobar is a pretty good staff and they still have decent position players, but could fill out the roster from there. I just never believe them actually spending the money or making a bold move.

  225. The Phranchise November 25th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    Why does everyone talk about Bucholz and he is still a sure fire top of the rotation prospect who hasn’t proved that yet and Homer Bailey who was the #1 pitching prospect in all of baseball not too long ago is washed up and a bust but can dominate the minors?

  226. Carlo November 25th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    I dont have much to say, but what i will say is this: The Red Sox will not have Halladay and Beckett in their rotation come 2011……maybe for a year, but definitely wont pony up to pay for both after 2010. So come 2011, they will have Lester + 1 of Halladay/Beckett + Dice K + Wakefield……and Bucholz will be gone.

  227. vblade November 25th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Sign Lackey, keep the kids. Done deal. No need to go overboard and ruin the long term plan that has been pretty successful thus far.

  228. P. allen November 25th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    I would trade Melky/Kennedy/Brackman/Miranda to KC for Grienke. This way you still have a CF, and you have CC, Grienke, AJ, Andy, Hughes/Joba and maybe Chapman.

  229. Enough Pitching Changes November 25th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    “Melky/Kennedy/Brackman/Miranda to KC for Grienke”

    why on earth would KC do that deal for that crap you are giving them?

  230. Luca November 25th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    I like: Joba-Melky-Aceves-Brackman to tigers for Verlander-Ordonez(putrid contract for Tigers).
    I bilieve Shetts or Bedard worth the risk of 1 Year for 4-5 milion plus incentives with option.
    Empire strike back!

  231. FUSER November 25th, 2009 at 4:51 pm

    Quote: “They traded a pitcher on a the downside and an infielder who never really was a major leaguer. Yankees will have trade high end prospects in this case and pay a 5 year contract at $20M+. Clemens, I believe got a three year deal. On average, Clemens made about $8.5M per over his 5 years with the Yankees.”
    ______
    You cannot compare 1999 salaries with 2009. You’d have to adjust Clemens’ 1999 salary to see what that equates to in 2009 dollars.

  232. Ira ScHIOWItz November 26th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    trading either Hughes or Chamberlain for a pitcher 10 years older does not make sense Josh Johnson if availabe or Morrow of Seattle makes much more sense I believe Hallidays better days are behind him. It would be a grave error in judgement Ira

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