The good and bad of Roy Halladay
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 25, 2009 
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As a pitcher, Roy Halladay has little or no downside. He’s coming off his career-high in strikeouts, he’s lead the American League in complete games the past three years and he’s gone over 220 innings the past four years. He’s durable, he’s dominant and he’s worth the $15.75-million he’ll make next year. Sure, his numbers will probably slide as he gets older and there’s always an injury risk, but here and now, he’s terrific. Who wouldn’t want him?
As a trade target, though, Halladay has some negatives. He’ll turn 33 next year, he’s in the last year of his contract and getting him would cost more than money. Forget statistics. Halladay’s Baseball Reference page is nothing but mouth watering goodness. That’s the obvious upside, but what are the negatives of a Halladay trade?
Age. To me, Halladay seems like one of those guys who will continue to pitch well into his late 30s. Just a guess, obviously, but he’s a big boy who’s held up pretty well. That said, a trade for Halladay is only worthwhile if it comes with a contract extension, and there would have to be some concern about a Yankees rotation that has A.J. Burnett and Halladay tied to multi-year contracts as they enter their mid-30s. I think it’s a minor concern, but it’s there.
Money. Halladay is in the last year of a contract that will pay him $15.75-million. Last year, Burnett was a year younger than Halladay is now — and without nearly the track record — when he landed a five-year, $82.5-million deal. Halladay is going to cost more than that. Four years, $80-million? Five years, $100-million? Maybe. Certainly a contract that pays around $20-million a year. That’s close to half of what’s coming off the Yankees’ payroll this year. I know money seems like it’s never an issue for the Yankees, but there has to be a limit somewhere. Adding Halladay could limit the Yankees ability to fill other spots, and let’s not forget that Derek Jeter is about to need a new contract, Robinson Cano is about to enter the tens of millions and guys like Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and David Robertson aren’t going to be cheap forever.
Talent. If the swap were Halladay for Chamberlain or Hughes, I’d do it in a second, and I’m a huge believer in both. Even if it were Halladay for Chamberlain/Hughes and a highly touted, minor league pitcher (Dellin Betances, Andrew Brackman, Zach McAllister or even Manny Banuelos) I’d make the trade because Halladay fills a rotation spot for the next half decade. I would hesistate, however, to include either Austin Jackson or Jesus Montero. Jackson could fill a big league spot within the next year, and he’s going to be cheap for the next several years, something that would make it easier for the Yankees to pay Halladay and the rest. I would hesitate to include Montero because of his talent, but also because he also fills a spot the Yankees need, either as Jorge Posada’s successor or as a young, cheap designated hitter (again, something that helps the Yankees pay the other guys through the middle of next decade). I think you have to look at how the pieces fit, not just how much talent you’re giving up and how much talent you’re getting back
Bring in doc
Wow you guys are lovin this Halladay talk.
I hope you’ll Take a break to listen to a few bars of Alice’s Restaurant Massacree with four Part Harmony and eat some greeen bean cassarole, Ocean Spray Jellied cranberry Sauce and TURKEY FOR THE TABLE!
Doreen please post full your menu.
Uncle Ellsworth (much adieu about nothing)
November 25th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Doreen please post full your menu.
***************
I second this!!
Haven’t been here in a while-Just wanted to wish everyone a Happy and Safe Thanksgiving!
Halladay-pass
Erin Are you making anything?
I’m making Magic Cookie Bars to bring to my Sister in Laws sister’s house
Christmas I’ll make a Turkey (but I want to make a goose too)
SA
DON”T leave without adding a TG dish.
What is your fave or what do you make?
Hasppy TG
Chad, excellent post. There’s more to this than just getting and losing talent, as I’ve been saying for some time now.
Hope nobody’s posting anything tomorrow. Time for friends, family, and giving thanks for all we have. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
Uncle Ellsworth (much adieu about nothing)
November 25th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Erin Are you making anything?
I’m making Magic Cookie Bars to bring to my Sister in Laws sister’s house
Christmas I’ll make a Turkey (but I want to make a goose too)
*****************
I’ve been given the very important task of making the Jello. LOL
Luckily for me, my mom and aunt handle everything else. They’re both much better cooks than me.
I LOVE magic bar cookies-save one for me
I cannot buy that the Yankees would give up Hughes and Chamberlain for Halladay.
That seems utterly idiotic.
Erin I hope you are learning how.
Making Gravey is a Lost Art.
learn that.
Jell-o? Shots?
I was going to make a Yankee Pot Roast with Fries with Gravey but…..
Pat M, Lackey didn’t pitch so well in game 1. I don’t want him. I don’t think he’s a NY guy and I worry about his health
Pat M, Lackey didn’t pitch so well in game 1. I don’t want him. I don’t think he’s a NY guy and I worry about his health
Happy turkey day Uncle E!
I am usually in charge of the green bean casserole.
The menu for tomorrow night for my family:
Turkey
Green bean casserole
Roasted potatoes
Garlic Mashed potatoes
Stuffed Mushrooms
Corn
Gravy
Biscuits
Stuffing
Apple Pie
Pumpkin Pie
Betsy
What are you making?
Heyman just said on wfan that the blue jays love Montero. By judging Cashman previous decisions I dont see how they trade for Halladay. He didn’t trade for Santana back when they needed an ace. He doesn’t seem willing to give up his elite prospects in trades.
Lackey is a dead end street.
That guy is not the answer and his contract will be unreasonable.
S.A.–Serenity Now
November 25th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Happy turkey day Uncle E!
I am usually in charge of the green bean casserole.
The menu for tomorrow night for my family:
Turkey
Green bean casserole
Roasted potatoes
Garlic Mashed potatoes
Stuffed Mushrooms
Corn
Gravy
Biscuits
Stuffing
Apple Pie
Pumpkin Pie
YOU are the Firrst contestant in
PICK the BEST ThanksGiving MENU!
(this is a NOT AN ERICA SANCTIONED EVENT – yet)
Looks good! what kind of biscuits?
What kind of Stuffing?
7789,
And they don’t NEED an ace.
Yanks got one already.
Mad Prince, i think he “Chamberlain/Hughes” = Chamberlain or Hughes
but i did have to read it again myself because at first i thought he meant Chamberlain and Hughes
They could probably get Halladay for less if they also take Vernon Wells of of Toronto’s hands. Maybe Joba and somebody other than Ajax and Montero. Wells can go out to center and then you let Matsui and Damon walk awaay.
Uncle Ellsworth (much adieu about nothing)
November 25th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Erin I hope you are learning how.
Making Gravey is a Lost Art.
learn that.
Jell-o? Shots?
****************
I know, I should really learn to cook something other than pasta. Maybe that should be my New Year’s Resolution. Gravy will be my first order of business.
Jello Shots…not a bad idea! lol
Jeter’s Edge,
That’s how I read it…both, but ya, on second read it looks like one or the other.
Uncle E:
Biscuits: This cheesy biscuit thing my aunt makes. They go fast.
Stuffing: Stove Top.
Uncle Ellsworth (much adieu about nothing)
November 25th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
I was going to make a Yankee Pot Roast with Fries with Gravey but…..
**************
mmmmmmm…if you’re making that I’m coming over to your house!
S.A.–Serenity Now
November 25th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Uncle E:
Biscuits: This cheesy biscuit thing my aunt makes. They go fast. Sound Good!
Stuffing: Stove Top. – Hmmm not a fan.
If the Yankees have to include Jesus Montero in a package for Roy Halladay, then they will have no choice but to sign him to a contract extention … you cant give up one of the crown jewels of your farm system for a pitcher that may leave in one year.
As I have stated before, the Yankees dont offer contract extentions to their own players … how would Brian Cashman explain offering a contract extention to Roy Halladay to the likes of Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera as they enter their “walk years” … are the Yankees now going to offer them contract extentions, as well?
If not, then doesnt that send a horrible message to these immortal players who have helped bring 5 WS titles to this franchice … why does Roy Halladay get such elite consideration but Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera do not … talk about a major Pandora’s Box in the making.
Heyman just said on wfan that the blue jays love Montero.
–
Any organization would love Montero
S.A.–Serenity Now
November 25th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Biscuits: This cheesy biscuit thing my aunt makes. They go fast.
*************
Those sound really good. I got hungry looking at your menu, BTW.
David,
Possibly, but Wells’ contract is a bit absurd. I’d think that Toronto would have to cover at least 30-40% of the remaining money to include the Yanks to pull that one off.
I guess Roy Halladay is the new Johan Santana(in terms of offseason trade speculation)
VIA MLBTR
Red Sox interested Justin Duch…
The Red Sox are interested in everybody.
I wish ESPN or another media outlet would say about the Red Sox what they say about the Yankees when only fans ask in chats with the ESPN personalities if the Yankees could trade for a big name like Halladay or sign a big name like Mauer.
“What makes the Yankees think that everybody they have interest in, has interest in playing for the Yankees. The Yankees are not the be all and end all.”
Erin don’t wait til New Year
Watch them make the gravy tomorrow –
end of sermon
Yanks won’t trade Montero. I wouldn’t be schocked if they traded Austin Jackson.
disco stu,
I don’t think that this “walk year” extension stuff would be an issue. That would be read as part of the trade. Don’t you think that guys like Jeter and Mo would be a bit more concerned with the guy the Yankees would be bringing in than they would with when, because it is only a matter of when, they get paid?
Erin
Do you listen to Alice’s Restaurant?
I’m sure your buddy does – where is she Atlantic City?
Erin November 25th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Those sound really good. I got hungry looking at your menu, BTW.
==========================
All I ate today was toast, so looking at tomorrow’s menu is making me drool!
If the Yankees signed Roy Halladay to anything, Jeter, Rivera, and Posada would be doing backflips a’la Ozzie Smith.
m
Are you making pinapple/spam stuffing?
Disco Stu makes a good point.
My hope of hopes is that he stays in Toronto or goes anywhere but the Red Sox.
I don’t know how itchy Epstein’s trigger finger is going to be to pull this off even though the Yankees won the World Series (he seems cold and calculated like Cashman). They already sunk $100 million into Matsusaka, I don’t see John Henry ponying up all of a sudden.
Henry loves to be able to poke and prod the Yankees, and coughing up this much $$$ would go against his somewhat stubborn “cheapness” (when he has a # in mind he won’t budge).
Either way, whoever gets him, it will be with a significant degree of “hurt”.
Stuffing from a box. I made homemade stuffing one time and it was really good. But it’s not worth the effort.
I did see one of the markets offering Portuguese sausage (linguica sausage) in their pre-cooked meal. That sounded good.
“…and guys like Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and David Robertson aren’t going to be cheap forever. ”
good point. they’re too old .
trade them and get someone younger and cheaper.
“disco stu,
I don’t think that this “walk year” extension stuff would be an issue. That would be read as part of the trade. Don’t you think that guys like Jeter and Mo would be a bit more concerned with the guy the Yankees would be bringing in than they would with when, because it is only a matter of when, they get paid?”
I have no idea what Derek Jeter or Mariano Rivera would feel if the Yankees offered Roy Halladay a contract extention in exchange for him to agree to be traded to the Yankees … but I feel fairly confident that their agents would be on the phone asking Brian Cashman when the Yankees will start to consider renegotiating their next contracts as soon as the trade was finalized.
You dont have to think it will be an issue, but all I know is this, the Yankees have maintained year after year that they dont renegotiate contracts with existing players until they are free agents … if things now change with Roy Halladay, I suspect there will be a lot eye brows raised.
m
November 25th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Stuffing from a box. I made homemade stuffing one time and it was really good. But it’s not worth the effort.
I did see one of the markets offering Portuguese sausage (linguica sausage) in their pre-cooked meal. That sounded good.
————————————————–
Stuffing from a box tastes like the box compared to homemade stuffing.
m
November 25th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Stuffing from a box. I made homemade stuffing one time and it was really good. But it’s not worth the effort.
I did see one of the markets offering Portuguese sausage (linguica sausage) in their pre-cooked meal. That sounded good.
I love linguicia. (I think it is Red Sox meat though)
I use unseasoned bag stuffing that I and my seasonings too.
Uncle Ellsworth (much adieu about nothing)
November 25th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Erin
Do you listen to Alice’s Restaurant?
I’m sure your buddy does – where is she Atlantic City?
*****************
I do listen to Alice’s Restaurant!
She’s at work-her internet got taken away from her.
I don’t know how she does it. I don’t know what I’d do if I couldn’t take internet breaks at work.
Pat M -
Thanks and a Happy Thanksgiving to You and Yours — and also to all of you here!
This Thanksgiving’s a little on the light side; there’ll only be 5 of us. My husband’s mom just got home after a couple of months in rehab (she was in an accident and broke her foot and shoulder – she’s doing great, but only got home Sunday). So, we’re bringing dinner to her.
Turkey, of course, with herb butter rub.
Gravy
Panettone Stuffing
Smashed potates with sour cream and chives
Spicy Parmesan Green beans w/Kale
Cranberry, Cherry & Walnut Marmalade (cranberry sauce)
Garlic & Sun Dried tomato corn muffins
Roasted Brussels sprouts with balsamic vinegar & pancetta
Oatmeal-Nut Crunch Apple Pie
(And maybe some CC and AJ cookies!)
——
Of course the Blue Jays love Montero! Who isn’t going to love him???
——-
No matter what happens with Halladay (and I don’t so much want him as I hope the Red Sox don’t get him), it’s becoming clear to me the Yankees need another pitcher. Don’t know who (I’m not motivated enough to do all the research – and no one’s paying me!
). Lackey intrigued me a bit, but I don’t know one way or the other.
I suppose they have to fill those newspapers with something, so until something solid comes about, there’ll be this speculation that alternately has me yawning and overreacting.
And they sure know how to push the right buttons to get fan reaction, don’t they?
I have said, and I still believe, that the Yankees should only get Halladay if ends up being a deal that’s almost too good to be true, and I don’t think that will happen.
I’m trusting those of you with Red Sox info to infer that the Red Sox really don’t have the goods to get Halladay without suffering elsewhere and they have too many needs – more than the Yankees.
Uncle Ellsworth -
Thanks for reminding me about Alice’s Restaurant. I look forward to it every year, but sometimes the busy-ness of the day gets in the way.
Jeter, Mo and the current Yankees understand a contract extension contemporaneously with a trade is a different situation. I agree they would be thrilled.
A second tier plus for Halladay – he had quite the positive incluence on Burnett. Maybe they pick up their mentor/mentee relationship where they left off? Maybe Doc squeezes some more “good Burnett” starts and/or one or two “great Burnett” starts put of AJ, or mitigates the “bad Burnett”…
Turkey, of course, with herb butter rub.
Gravy
Panettone Stuffing
Smashed potates with sour cream and chives
Spicy Parmesan Green beans w/Kale
Cranberry, Cherry & Walnut Marmalade (cranberry sauce)
Garlic & Sun Dried tomato corn muffins
Roasted Brussels sprouts with balsamic vinegar & pancetta
Oatmeal-Nut Crunch Apple Pie
(And maybe some CC and AJ cookies!)
Show Off!
What time is dinner?
What is Panetonne?
Glad I don’t have to make a decision on do or don’t for Doc! I see the argument both pro and con and without a crystal ball who knows? If it were just $s no problem. Maybe this is Joba’s year. they should kinda just leave him alone and let him pitch. I think all that messin him around didn’t help him a bit.
My gut says keep what you got and let it shake itself out. Goin after Doc just seems to me reckless. Glad i don’t make the decisions
“Jeter, Mo and the current Yankees understand a contract extension contemporaneously with a trade is a different situation. I agree they would be thrilled.”
Really? Have you personally spoken to them? Just because offering an incoming player a contract extention is not the exact same scenario as a current player being offering one, doesnt mean that that the current players (or their agents) make not take offense to it.
hey everybody! i’m so happy to be back here! so…i’m in full agreement with chad. halladay would be better than chamberlain or hughes. i’d take him in 5 seconds.
How much of an effect is Halladay supposed to have on AJ? His year in 09 was almost identical to his Toronto years.
Anyone deep fry their turkey?
Doreen sounds Amazing – looked up panetonne – I’ve had that before but not in stuffing.
Doreen
Sounds good.
Throw in some baked rutabaga and onion delight.
(s)mashed potatoes sounds kinda violent.
1. The most I’d offer Damon is arbitration.
2. Matsui 1 year and an option.
3. Sign Sheets, and or Harden to an incentive laden short deal with an option.
4. Consider, not commit to, Lackey or Halladay, depending on the deal. Halladay if not giving away too much; Lackey if not giving too long a deal.
5. Consider a trade if Josh Johnson is available.
6. On the outfield, I go back and forth on a number of options, and I really can’t decide. My reaction is to go with a short-term fix and not Bay or Holliday. There are better options after next year.
7. I’ll miss them if they leave, but get it together Pettite, Damon, Wang and Cashman! If you can’t work out something quickly, it should be time to move on sooner rather than later.
Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench)
November 25th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Anyone deep fry their turkey?
**************
A good friend of mine does, and she says it’s amazing.
Doreen-love the menu!! Sounds yummy-especially the garlic and sund dried tomato corn muffins
Disco Stu– I believe they have seen how the business works over the past 15 years. Traded players often seek and get extensions. Should the Yankees make decisions on whether an agent will call and try to use it to his advantage? I don’t think so. Players like to win. Halladay would certainly help.
“Really? Have you personally spoken to them? Just because offering an incoming player a contract extention is not the exact same scenario as a current player being offering one, doesnt mean that that the current players (or their agents) make not take offense to it.”
It’s apples and oranges. You’re asking players to understand the extension is a necessity to complete the deal, which is a legitimate difference.
They SHOULD also be smart enough to know that EVERY game they play in the post-season, successfully perform in, and ideally WIN just ADDS to their OWN market value.
They and their agents should be doing CARTWHEELS if the Yankees enhance their chance of hitting .320 again in a 6 game WS, or going 3 for 3 in saves with a 0.00 to 1.00 ERA.
That’s not rocket science.
Now, can we assume the players think THIS way? No, but no more or less than you can assume the players think in the way you are speculating about…
Smashed potatoes keep some lumps in, which is how I like them. (Gotta have some violence in your Turkey day, don’t ya???) Never made rutabagas. Did make turnips one year and they’re not worth the effort, to me.
I would be absolutely catatonic at the thought of deep frying a turkey. Very afraid.
Disco Stu. You wouldn’t have to talk to the players personally to know they’d understand the business aspect of an extension accompanying a trade is a different situation then the yankees policy on contract extensions for their own FA’s. I think that is fairly obvious.
As we all discuss the merits of trading for Halladay, it seems one big question we don’t know the answer to is what that trade would do for there ability to accomplish other things such as Pettitte, a left fielder etc. If the budget must go down, spending too much on any one player this off season is a problem. As a fan, I hope that’s not the case. I for one don’t care if people complain about the budget.
The downside is Halladay’s age, and that is not insignificant. It makes him more likely to get hurt, to recover more slowly from even minor injuries, and to decline.
Doreen
November 25th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Smashed potatoes keep some lumps in, which is how I like them. (Gotta have some violence in your Turkey day, don’t ya???) Never made rutabagas. Did make turnips one year and they’re not worth the effort, to me.
I would be absolutely catatonic at the thought of deep frying a turkey. Very afraid.
————————————————
Rutabaga and turnip are quite different. Rutabaga is milder and sweeter. My wife uses a Finnish recipe with some spices and bakes it in the oven.
Rich in NJ–don’t start the age argument. he is as good as he ever was.
“Anyone deep fry their turkey?”
If you do it, make sure the turkey is fully thawed, or the oil will boil over. And do it outside. Many people down here fry their turkey, and I read about several house fires every year because of it. But it tastes great if you survive!
Parsnips are a another great root Vegetable – irsh eat it all the time – very good
“Anyone deep fry their turkey?”
If you do it, make sure the turkey is fully thawed, or the oil will boil over. And do it outside. Many people down here fry their turkey, and I read about several house fires every year because of it. But it tastes great if you survive!
If I ever do it – Safety will be my number one concern
Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench)
November 25th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Parsnips are a another great root Vegetable – irsh eat it all the time – very good
——————————————-
Haven’t had any in a long time but they are good.
Used to be quite common in the garden in the past but not sure it is now.
Valerie G.
Rich in NJ–don’t start the age argument. he is as good as he ever was.
__
What? That’s not the argument, and quite frankly, it’s not an argument. The issue whether or not he will decline, and if so to what degree, as he enters his mid to late 30s.
That’s the reality. Try to deal with it instead of pretending that it doesn’t exist.
Seems like Potatoes and carrots are the only one of that ilk to get used much – need to break out and get some turnips and rutabagas
Rich in NJ–I’ll be nice because it’s almost Thanksgiving, but it so happens there will be no decline, and no, I’m not lying to myself or being delusional. He has at least 5 good years left.
The other issue is will Joba return to being the starter he was in 2008 prior to the shoulder injury.
Prior to the injury, he pitched as well as Halladay, so there would be no reason to trade a younger, cheaper version of the same pitcher.
The Yankees’ read on his ability to fully regain his arm strength should determine whether or not Joba would be available in a trade.
Rich in NJ–Joba is not nearly as good as Halladay. Not in any reality.
Valerie G.
Rich in NJ–I’ll be nice because it’s almost Thanksgiving, but it so happens there will be no decline, and no, I’m not lying to myself or being delusional. He has at least 5 good years left.
__
Nice? Seriously, what’s your problem? Do you somehow think that you have the ability to predict the future? If so, pick some stocks for me, and tell me which numbers to play in the lottery.
The reality is that older pitchers can be more susceptible to injuries or to a decline.
You have no idea whether or not Halladay will decline and neither do I. The difference is that I admit it, and you either won’t or can’t.
No matter what you think, every GM in MLB is aware of that manifest fact.
“Prior to the injury, he pitched as well as Halladay, so there would be no reason to trade a younger, cheaper version of the same pitcher.”
Dude, he made 12 starts and pitched 65 innings (a tad over 5.0 innings per).
You can’t compare 65 innings to the CAREER of Roy Halladay.
Small sample size equally skews positive runs as it does negative ones.
Does anyone think that Peter Gammons will be able to smell his Thanksgiving feast or will his nose be so far stuck up the Red Sox….
Will his nostrils be engulfed by the Red Sox stink?
Rich in NJ–
“No matter what you think, every GM in MLB is aware of that manifest fact.”
And you know this…how? I’ll admit he will decline at some point, but I can’t see it happening soon. He was just as good last season as any other, and that’s just a fact. Let’s just agree to disagree in the spirit of the holidays, deal?
Valerie G.
Rich in NJ–Joba is not nearly as good as Halladay. Not in any reality.
__
From June 3rd to August 4th 2008 Joba was about as good as any starter in MLB.
In 2008, Joba’s ERA as a starter was 2.76 and his BAA was .245. In 2009, Halladay’s ERA was 2.79 and his BAA was .256.
Try to stick with facts.
“Do you somehow think that you have the ability to predict the future? If so, pick some stocks for me, and tell me which numbers to play in the lottery.”
Buy blue chips and don’t waste your time playing the lottery.
No once can predict the future, but anyone who can understand history, and calculate rudimentary odds can make some educated guesses about the future.
Stuckey
November 25th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
“Prior to the injury, he pitched as well as Halladay, so there would be no reason to trade a younger, cheaper version of the same pitcher.”
Dude, he made 12 starts and pitched 65 innings (a tad over 5.0 innings per).
You can’t compare 65 innings to the CAREER of Roy Halladay.
Small sample size equally skews positive runs as it does negative ones.
______________________________
I completely agree. Joba is not Halladay. At least not right now.
“In 2008, Joba’s ERA as a starter was 2.76 and his BAA was .245.”
In 65.1 innings.
“In 2009, Halladay’s ERA was 2.79 and his BAA was .256.”
in 239 innings
And he has a 3.43 ERA in 2046.2 career innings.
“Try to stick with facts.”
Okay….
I can predict the future…
It involves Peter Gammons stinksniffing Casey Kelly’s jock.
Rich in NJ–I am getting annoyed now. Joba has had too few starts to make statements like that. He hasn’t yet reached his potential and I don’t see any of Halladay in him at the moment. Except the strikeouts.
Valerie G.
And you know this…how? I’ll admit he will decline at some point, but I can’t see it happening soon. He was just as good last season as any other, and that’s just a fact. Let’s just agree to disagree in the spirit of the holidays, deal?
___
For the same reason that health and life insurance are more expensive as one ages. It’s the result of actuarial tables.
Does that mean Halladay will decline in 2010 or 2011? No; we just don’t know.
As for how good a pitcher was one year but declined the next year, look at these stats:
2004: 2.60
2005: 3.79
The pitcher is Randy Johnson. Even adjusting for league differences, that is a decline. Stuff happens.
We’re not talking about one year with Halladay, we are talking about four or five.
I can’t predict the future, but neither can you.
That’s not to say that I don’t want Halladay, I do. But the price has to be right.
Stuckey–thanks for the backup
Stuckey
Joba got injured. You do realize that, right?
Boston gets enjoyment from being rumor mongers. John Henry was once a very minority limited partner with the Yankees, saw the business model the Yankees use and attempted it with the Florida Marlins.
After selling that franchise, he moved on to Boston and tried again to emulate the Yankee business model.
Henry has painted himself in a corner.
Valerie G.
Do you understand anything about projection?
The point is that Joba has shown the ability to be as good as Halladay. That doesn’t mean that he has had the same career.
Will he regain that form? I have no idea, but if he can, I am not trading away a younger and cheaper pitcher with that kind of ability.
I don’t get annoyed. I just laugh at the silliness I read at times.
Rich–I just said 5 years! We agree. his decline (if it ever comes as you predict) won’t be for quite some years, so no need to panic. and it won’t be sudden, he’s too good a pitcher for that. and btw, randy johnson and roy halladay are 2 completely different pitchers. no comparison at all.
Rich–silliness? I have my opinion. Joba will not be Halladay. Not a projection, per se, just an opinion.
Stuckey
No once can predict the future, but anyone who can understand history, and calculate rudimentary odds can make some educated guesses about the future.
__
I’m not the one who claims to know that Halladay will be the same pitcher over the next five years that he has been over the last five.
I have admitted that I don’t know.
Anyway, your tone is funny.
“As for how good a pitcher was one year but declined the next year, look at these stats:
“2004: 2.60″
At age 41
“2005: 3.79″
42
Not a good example
Stuckey–Thank you!!!
Valerie G.
Your silliness is about pretending to know what will happen and by claiming that the age issue isn’t worth discussing.
The point is that the possibility has to be considered and accounted for in the price paid.
Stuckey
Because you say so?
The point is that a lot of people thought that RJ would continue to be a great pitcher in 2005 because he was in 2004. He wasn’t. Stuff happens, whether or not you want to admit it.
“Joba got injured. You do realize that, right?”
Yes, that’s not at all the point.
65 inning is 65 innings. You want to project this as his potential (if he ever fully recovers from shoulder issues and they don’t reoccur which is a HUGE if).
Even if Chamberlain’s arm return to the exact same physical state it was in 2007-2008 prior to the shoulder issues, to suggest he’d approximate that level of performance flies is hardly a safe assumption.
THAT is a fact. A 12 start run does not a career projection make.
I want to wish everyone here a happy and safe holiday. Save a seat for me at the table!!!!! Go see the Blind Side and Pirate Radio, if you haven’t, this weekend.
Montero is the best Yankee hitting prospect that we’ve had in many years. I hope he stays off limits!!
If you have to trade Joba or Hughes I want a Josh Johnson or a Felix Hernandez. Look, what little, Philly gave up for 1&1/2 years of Lee, who is one of the top lefties in the game and would be more valuable to us as a lefty pitcher than Halladay. King Felix is going nowhere, but Josh Johnson might be an option if we take Uggla on also[ with the intent of spinning him elsewhere].
The more I think about it, there isn’t a DH available as a FA, who put up anywhere near Matsui’s numbers last year.
If after his minor knee surgery, his medicals come back OK, then he should be resigned.
I hope Pettitte makes up his mind soon to come back or not so we can move forward.
If we can’t make a trade for Granderson, then I think it might be a good idea to offer Damon arbitration.
I’m still open to suggestions and am eagerly awaiting the rumors surrounding the Yankees, when “leaks” come out from Cashman’s meeting with the top brass next week!!
Rich–Exactly right. But I have enormous confidence in him at this point and I’m not anticipating any decline any time soon.
Rich–You’re comparing a 32 year old young, outstanding pitcher to a 46 year old, unfortunately washed-up pitcher. Explain, please.
Stuckey
No, the point is that if Joba’s arm strength returns, I would rather keep him because he demonstrated that he can be a dominant starter and he is younger and cheaper.
“A 12 start run does not a career projection make.”
No one said it does. But it does suggest that Joba may be worth keeping if the Yankee believe that his arm strength will return.
What you are failing to understand is that the $10 million to $15 million the Yankees would save by keeping Joba (if they think he will recover) reduces to the following equation:
Joba + a $15 million player > Halladay at $20 million
“Because you say so?”
Because I say what? I haven’t made any predictions. I’ve added facts to the discussion.
“The point is that a lot of people thought that RJ would continue to be a great pitcher in 2005 because he was in 2004. He wasn’t. Stuff happens, whether or not you want to admit it.”
Absolutely agreed. But even that said, comparing a 41 year old pitcher to a 33 year old pitcher does not effectively make your point.
“Stuff happens” is ABSOLUTELY true. As does “stuff happen” to 23 year old pitchers who develop shoulder issues.
The BEST information available however suggest over the next 3 to 5 years, Roy Halladay will LIKELY be a more effective pitcher than Joba Chamberlain.
I agree, Roy Halladay’s arm could fall off next season and Chamberlain could win the CY Young. Could happen.
But a smart person would probably bet on the opposite happening if they absolutely had to bet one way or another.
Rich–I’d rather have Halladay than Joba and 15 million any day.
Valerie G.
RJ wasn’t washed up when the Yankees traded for him, was he?
He was second in the CYA voting in 2004:
http://www.baseball-reference......html#NLcya
Rich–I meant now, not in 2004.
Uncle Ellsworth, I’m not making anything – I’m going to my sisters, lol. When we have Thanksgiving at our house, I don’t cook – my job is to clean the floor, the tables, etc…..
Valerie G. November 25th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Rich–I’d rather have Halladay than Joba and 15 million any day.
I agree, all this reminds me of the past two years. We didn’t get Santana and didn’t make the playoff’s. We got CC and AJ and won the WS. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that getting top notch pitching roughly translates into winning Pennants and WS. Giving Boston or LA a pitcher to beat you with also isn’t sound logic to winning championships.
“Because I say what? I haven’t made any predictions. I’ve added facts to the discussion.”
I haven’t made any predictions either. I merely raised the issue.
“Absolutely agreed. But even that said, comparing a 41 year old pitcher to a 33 year old pitcher does not effectively make your point.”
No, the sole purpose of the comparison was to point out that there can be rapid declines. It’s not like many pitchers remain effective past 40 like RJ did. He’s a very rare athlete. So his chronological age may have been misleading.
I acknowledge that Joba’s future is unpredictable, but I don’t have the data that the Yankees have.
“The BEST information available however suggest over the next 3 to 5 years, Roy Halladay will LIKELY be a more effective pitcher than Joba Chamberlain.”
We don’t have the BEST information, because we don’t have the medical reports on Joba.
“But a smart person would probably bet on the opposite happening if they absolutely had to bet one way or another.”
Again, being smart has nothing to do with it. It’s about having all the facts, and none of us do.
While you all were arguing, Boston made a trade for the big H- not Halladay but Tug Hulett!!!!!
Valerie G.
I have only referenced the period from 2004 to 2005.
Just think about being able to stack your pitching for the key series, CC, Halladay, Andy, AJ
Rich–It seems the overwhelming view agrees with me
just kidding. seriously, though, getting halladay would seal the deal for another world series. at least that’s my opinion.
Ugh, I thought I was going to have my WS DVD today (I paid for 1 day shipping because I couldn’t wait) and Amazon delayed it, so now it won’t be here until Friday. Amazon was very kind and waived the entire shipping fee………
Gary,
If the Yankees had traded for Santana, they MIGHT not have Hughes. If so, their bullpen would have had a gaping hole this season, and they might not have won the WS.
Rich–Yankees -hughes+santana=world series. i don’t see hughes being more of a commodity than santana, other than team chemistry.
So are the G Men going to beat Denver tomm night? Hopefully good Eli shows up and the defense starts playing defense again. That was not defense out there last Sunday.
Valerie G.
Actually, Stuckey said that he wasn’t making predictions. Neither have I. The only person that has said that know what the future will bring is you.
I wish I had a crystal ball. Truly. Because Joba has had some starts where he was stellar. Absolutely stellar. Showed what he could be capable of.
I believe what Pat M. says about his not being conditioned for this season.
I have to believe that if Pat M. saw it, his coaches and manager and GM saw it and “read him the riot act” about what he needs to do to prepare for the season.
I expect a new and improved (or would it be old and what we thought he would be) Joba in spring training, if he is still with the team.
I know it’s not a popular frame of mind, but these guys are human beings with outside pressures. Who knows what goes on in someone’s life that has an effect on how they prepare for their work? Anyway, I’m hoping Joba has seen the light. Because what he did show when he was “on” was worth waiting for.
I have no doubt that Phil Hughes is going to be very good. Maybe not a #1 guy, but in the solid #2, #3 hole, for sure, eventually.
So glad I’m not Brian Cashman. Although he does have a whole lot more information than I could ever dream of having…
Yankee Trader
November 25th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
While you all were arguing, Boston made a trade for the big H- not Halladay but Tug Hulett!!!!!
———————————————-
Not sure what to think about that. That’s the 3rd low end player they have picked up lately.
Valerie G.
Rich–Yankees -hughes+santana=world series. i don’t see hughes being more of a commodity than santana, other than team chemistry.
__
Huh? The point is that Santana might have cost Hughes.
How can we judge Hughes at 23?
Rich–What are you talking about?
“What you are failing to understand is that the $10 million to $15 million the Yankees would save by keeping Joba (if they think he will recover) reduces to the following equation:
Joba + a $15 million player > Halladay at $20 million”
Not failing to understand anything. I’m just considering the “IF” part of the equation more so than you are, I believe.
There are handfuls of pitchers in baseball history that have shown the consistent ability of Roy Halladay. There are thousands of pitchers that have shown extraordinary promise as an under 25 prospect that never approximate a Halladay.
That’s just what history teaches us. And in Chamberlain’s specific case, there are more than a few “reddish” flags surrounding him, including injury questions coming into the draft that allowed him to fall to the Yanks, his performance SINCE the 2008 injury, questions about conditioning, and let’s not forget some personality/maturity question marks, including a DUI.
Now that’s not to say I’m “down” on Chamberlain. I’m not. But that known facts are the known facts.
The bottom line is 65 spectacular inning may be tantalizing, but they’re NOT a strong indicator of what you get from Chamberlain the next 4 or 5 years, which has at least some level of potential of being nothing to very little.
On http://www.nesn.com
~The funniest headline under the redsock tab:
Redsocks acquire infielder Tug Hulett(triple A) from Royals.He’s not Miguel Cabrera or Adrian Gonzalez,but he’s something.
~The first comment says,Is this suppose to get us excited?
We need proven talent…I need a drink.LOL!!!
Tug owns a career .194 average.He hit IN 2009 .291 in 99 games 11 homers,and 53 Rbi’s
What a joke. I just heard that fat faced stinksniffer Gordon Edes on ESPN. (Gordon Edes left Yahoo because Yahoo was not pro-Red Sox enough for him)
He says all it will take to get Halladay is Buchholz and 1 or 2 prospects.
Maybe it is the case, but what makes him think that the Blue Jays even value or think that Buchholz is any good?
Rich–I’m saying Santana beats Hughes in value, that’s all. Perhaps not career-wise, but definitely right now.
Sorry, Joba showed brilliance in a bunch of starts last year, but I’ll be darned if I’m going to say he showed he could be as good as Halladay. Let Joba do that for about 10 years, with a ridiculous ERAs in the best division in baseball…….then we’ll talk. There’s no way I’m taking a small sample size and running with it that way.
# Rich in NJ November 25th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Gary,
If the Yankees had traded for Santana, they MIGHT not have Hughes. If so, their bullpen would have had a gaping hole this season, and they might not have won the WS.
No argument from me, I simply used the metaphor about what happens when your willing to pay the bucks and get good pitching. As we saw again good pitching and defense trump good hitting.
Stuckey
Hypothetically, what if the $15 million enables the Yankees to fit Mauer into the budget should he reach free agency?
Anyone here ever go shopping on “black Friday?”
CR9 (Red Sox farm system = Hydra, except cut off one head and 6 more grow back) November 25th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
What a joke. I just heard that fat faced stinksniffer Gordon Edes on ESPN. (Gordon Edes left Yahoo because Yahoo was not pro-Red Sox enough for him)
He says all it will take to get Halladay is Buchholz and 1 or 2 prospects.
Maybe it is the case, but what makes him think that the Blue Jays even value or think that Buchholz is any good?
I think if that’s the offer from the BoSox that the Yankee offer will be better. The Yanks aren’t going to loose this one that easy.
Valerie G.
Rich–I’m saying Santana beats Hughes in value, that’s all. Perhaps not career-wise, but definitely right now.
__
Obviously, but that’s a very constricted way to look at it.
Doreen, I think you are underestimating Hughes and giving Joba too much slack. He had one job this off-season – to come into camp in shape. Man, we’re disagreeing quite a lot lately – I don’t like it, lol
Doreen
Watching Joba interact with teammates off the field he acts a bit immature. That being said it may be that he hadn’t taken the need for conditioning seriously enough.
I think with the info Cashman has he seems to be making good decisions lately.
what else did Gordon Edes say on ESPN
# Rich in NJ November 25th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Stuckey
Hypothetically, what if the $15 million enables the Yankees to fit Mauer into the budget should he reach free agency?
The Yanks have to have a high interest in both Mauer and Crawford. Both could be 10 years players. Jorge is fading and the Yanks would have to be interested.
Betsy – high on pie
Sorry, Joba showed brilliance in a bunch of starts last year, but I’ll be darned if I’m going to say he showed he could be as good as Halladay.
__
Not last year, in 2008.
Gary
Have you looked at their payroll commitments for 2011 without even factoring in Jeter’s new contract and maybe one for Mo, not to mention raises for some of their younger players?
http://spreadsheets.google.com.....utput=html
They don’t have a ton of flexibility.
The Yankees were not a good team in 2008 and Santana would not have come close to putting them over the top. I don’t relish rehashing that non-deal as it was years ago…..and why would we anyway? We got our younger stud who proved a horse, we kept our kids and we won the WS. The non-move was the right deal.
As I said earlier, I can see all viewpoints when it comes to Halladay and that’s what makes this so difficult. I side with those who prefer to keep Joba/Phil and the kids, but I completely understand the opposing view. I have a tug of war going on inside me, lol. Part of me doesn’t want to give up what it will take, the other part wants Doc very much……and the other part does not want him going to the Sox.
Doreen
Watching Joba interact with teammates off the field he acts a bit immature. That being said it may be that he hadn’t taken the need for conditioning seriously enough.
Doreen I agree it starts with the stupid hat (salt stains no brim) and it’s just his general attitude. I’ve never seen someone pitch so crummy and then be in such denial about it.
Rich, last year was 2008
Just want to say happy thanksgiving to everybody!
Betsy -
I don’t think I’m underestimating Hughes, though. I think he’s solid. Joba’s the guy I’m wishing for the crystal ball for.
Joba’s the guy with all the question marks. Because he’s been as good as can be, AND he’s been really rotten (I sat through a start of his at Yankee Stadium – the Luis Castillo game – and it was AWFUL).
I guess the bottom line is, I don’t really want the Yankees to be in a position to think they need to go after Roy Halladay, as good as he is.
And Hughes could turn out to be an Ace. But even if he doesn’t he’d be like Wang – a #2 who could be a #1, or a #3 who’s as good as many teams’ #1 or #2. He’d be a favorable “matchup” no matter where he was in the rotation.
“I haven’t made any predictions either. I merely raised the issue.”
I don’t believe I claimed you did.
“No, the sole purpose of the comparison was to point out that there can be rapid declines. It’s not like many pitchers remain effective past 40 like RJ did. He’s a very rare athlete. So his chronological age may have been misleading.”
I think its fair to say the body of pitchers (particularly of the long-term caliber of Halladay) that remained effective into their mid to late 30′s FAR outpace the pitchers who remained effective into their mid-40s.
Its just a poor comparison. Doesn’t mean you point about Halladay isn’t taken, but the comparison was ill-conceived.
I said: “The BEST information available however suggest over the next 3 to 5 years, Roy Halladay will LIKELY be a more effective pitcher than Joba Chamberlain.”
You said: We don’t have the BEST information, because we don’t have the medical reports on Joba.
You’re missing the point. You’re still CONCLUDING that the reason Chamberlain hasn’t continued to put up numbers approximating those 65 inning is due to injury, and I will continue to make the point you’re reading too much into those 65 innings.
You are EXTRAPOLATING via an historically small sample size.
To some degree you ARE concluding that if the Yankees somehow have some scientific method to determine what his arm strength will be over the next 4 years, that if their readings said “pre-2008 injury” that this would mean he’s again return to pitching that effectively, which is a rash assumption.
Does anyone find it strange,that Scioscia was quoted as saying he’d beat the Yankees next year,even though the sawx owned them for years.?
Scioscia knows the Yankees are the team they need to get past for a berth in the WS.
This was a slap in the face to beantowm when you think about it carefully.
Betsy -
I feel that same “tug of war” regarding Halladay and all the options. I re-read some of my posts and it seems like I flip-flop depending on what time of day it is.
I truly, truly don’t want the Yankees to HAVE to get Halladay. But, boy, it sure is a temptation, isn’t it?
“I think its fair to say the body of pitchers (particularly of the long-term caliber of Halladay) that remained effective into their mid to late 30’s FAR outpace the pitchers who remained effective into their mid-40s.”
RJ was “only” 41 in 2005, and again, he’s an extreme outlier. Let’s assume that Halladay will be good for another five years. He could still be done by 39 or 40. RJ is that rare.
Again the comparison was for the limited purpose of pointing out unpredictable declines.
“You’re missing the point. You’re still CONCLUDING that the reason Chamberlain hasn’t continued to put up numbers approximating those 65 inning is due to injury, and I will continue to make the point you’re reading too much into those 65 innings.”
Yes, I think it’s mostly an arm strength issue, and David Cone has said the same thing, although the arm strength issue may have cause mechanical issues, like the hitch that Eiland has identified.
Look at Joba’s average velo as a starter in 2008:
6/3 95.24 2.1 IP
6/8 96.22 4.1 IP
6/13 94.57 6 IP
6/19 95.12 5.2 IP
6/25 95.34 6.2 IP
7/1 94.81 4 IP
7/6 94.94 6 IP
7/11 94.79 6.2
7/19 95.22 6 IP
7/25 95.51 7 IP
7/30 94.86 6 IP
8/4 94.80 4.2 IP (shoulder injury)
He hasn’t come close to that as a starter since then.
“To some degree you ARE concluding that if the Yankees somehow have some scientific method to determine what his arm strength will be over the next 4 years, that if their readings said “pre-2008 injury” that this would mean he’s again return to pitching that effectively, which is a rash assumption.”
No, I am merely suggesting that their medical experts and their experience with pitchers should be considered before reflexively trading Joba.
Doreen, Pat M and I see Phil as Young Master Hughes – he’s going to be more than solid. We’ll see…….
Here’s basically the same Daily News story:
http://wap.mlb.com/news/article/200911257715776/
I love this line, lol:
The Red Sox would love nothing more than to secure Halladay — likely to be the best pitcher available by trade or free agency this winter — before the World Series champion Yankees can do so.
The Jays will come back to the Yankees before they make any deal (or, you’d think they would) with the Sox, so if the Sox get something done before the Yankees, it’s probably because the Yankees weren’t that interested at the price. Then again, who can guarantee anything? Who knows if Anthopolous will come back to the Yankees? If he’s got a deal he’s happy with….he may just plow ahead.
__________________
Doreen November 25th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Anyone here ever go shopping on “black Friday?”
====================================
Yes and I never will again.
Too much of a pain
That is one sick staff that we could run out there if we did. The Jays are going to want a boat load and that extension will be for silly money. I also keep bouncing from “no freaking way” to “maybe we should”. I am so glad this decision isn’t on me. Ca$h is sure going to earn his rent on this one.
Doreen, forget my first line…..I copied and pasted the wrong comment, lol. I agree with your response to me…….this is a big year for Joba.
Doreen, it is so tempting……..I wonder sometimes if I doth protest too much. I want him, but I don’t want to give up what we will need to. I don’t want the Yankees to act out of fear of the Sox (which they won’t), but I don’t want the Sox to get Doc. I hate this darn soap opera, lol
Mike RI
Gordon Edes also admitted on ESPN that he is a fat loser and a stinksniffer extraordinare of the Red Sox.
Wendy Nix, Patriots Stinksniffer extraordinare, quoted Tom Brady and said that although the Pats only have 4 players remaining from their Super Bowls, their guys still have experience because “though they were not there, they were watching.” LMAO
Halladay is an ace. Joba has proven nothing. Could be a #1 or could be a bust.
Halladay and AJ are about the same age. AJ signed a long term contract with the Yanks and cannot shine Halladay’s shoes. If Yanks trade for Doc a long term contract would not concern them.
With all that being said, I still don’t think Cashman will give up his young players to get him.
Doreen
November 25th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Anyone here ever go shopping on “black Friday?”
*************************
Doreen, I used to but got sick of the crowds. Too much of a hassle, IMO
I don’t want to sell low on Joba.
i think toronto will do what the twins did with santana and ship halladay off to some third-rate team in the other league for a couple of scrubs and a bag of balls just to get rid of him and pocket the money
“Roasted Brussels sprouts with balsamic vinegar & pancetta”
Yum! What temperature and how long do they roast for?
“Anyone here ever go shopping on “black Friday?”
I used to be at stores at 5am when they opened but alot of the stores have the same deals on their websites now.
TIP: look for coupon codes before you order anything online and if you order from smaller companies outside your state you can often save tax and shipping.
On a serious note, people were at our local Best Buy last night in tents in prep for Black Friday.
On a joking note, I think I saw a guy in a Red Sox jersey and he was struggling to get someone off of him. I’m pretty sure it was Peter Gammons, while in the midst of stinksniffing, trying to make that average Joe into another Red Sox prospect.
Want to send a very Happy Thanksgiving out to all of my Yankee people!!!!
Hope everyobe has lots of be thankful for
And for those who are doing holiday shopping- I like presents!!!
On a serious note, people were at our local Best Buy last night in tents in prep for Black Friday.
==========================
That is just nuts.
I am baking another loaf of beer bread tomorrow morning.
I had 12 people here last Friday night. I baked two loaves of beer bread. All that was left were some very sad crumbs.
Happy Thanksgiving to you Erica as well.
There is only a few things in life to be thankful for besides family/friends, and this year we got it!!!! 27!!!
Uncle Ellsworth (much adieu about nothing)
November 25th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Erin
Do you listen to Alice’s Restaurant?
I’m sure your buddy does – where is she Atlantic City?
*********
I AM HERE!!!!! I was getting my hair cut
Dude, I plan my Thanksgiving morning around hearing Alice’s Restaurant at 12pm on Q104.3. Well, that and making sure I see the Sesame Street float in the parade. (Some traditions just never die)
Yankees have signed OF Jon Weber to a minor-league contract
with an invitation to major-league spring training.Weber 31 in Jan,hit .302-.382-.497 with triple A Durham last year mostly playing RF.I’m thinking Duncan’s replacement(minor-league depth.)
Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Erica!
Doreen
November 25th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Anyone here ever go shopping on “black Friday?”
*****
Yes. I love the people watching.
But I think I might skip it this year. I live close to the Walmart where the employee got trampled to death last year. Its pretty scary.
I just go for the entertainment value, but I won’t put myself in a situation where I will be in danger
Erin-
Happy Thanksgiving. My gift to you
http://viralvideochart.unrulym.....gbNymZ7vqY
Can someone explain to me how Mcallister dominates AA @ 22 with a 90-94 mph fastball and never gets mentioned, but Casey Kelly is in A ball with a 89-92 mph fastball and is the second coming?
As for Halladay to the Sox…
Buchholz… turns 26 in 2010 and still has not thrown 100+ innings in the majors
Ellsbury…. 26, no power, overrated
Bard… Good value, but not getting moved with Paplebon’s money demands & shoulder issues
Bowden & Tazawa… back end starters that have been destroyed in the majors
Reddick… didnt hit @ AAA or in the major
Kalish… i like him alot, but hes not a deal starter
Rizzo, Pimentel & Westmorland…. why are A ball players even in the discussion?
Kelly…. Another A ball player! 89-92 mph fastball & wants to play SS
^^^^^ how exactly are the Redsox going to get Halladay? The truth is that the Sox system is very thin at the top and that is why we keep hearing about their A ball players.
JK
It’s because the baseball organizations and scouting organizations are only interested in stinksniffing the Red Sox and not actually doing due diligence and being unbiased.
I’d take Halladay only if it was Joba, A-Jax, and a lower level pitcher to be determined by the advice of Cashman’s scouting staff.
Phil Hughes takes his career far more seriously than Joba as evidenced by his offseason preparation in recent years.
Joba is inclined to wait until pitchers and catchers report to get ready. Hughes is at the minor league complex in January with early arrivals like Jeter.
Erica/Erin -
Two teachers from my daughter’s school are holding the Abby Cadabby float!
pat – thanks for the online Black Friday tip.
pat -
Roasted Brussels sprouts recipe:
2 tbls. olive oil, 2 lbs. brussels sprouts, trimmed & halved, 6 oz. thinly sliced pancetta, chopped, 2 garlic cloves, finely chopped, 3 Tbsps. balsamic vinegar 1 Tbspn fresh thyme. Preheat oven 450. Brush heavy rimmed baking sheet with 1 T oil. Place 1 T oil in large bowl. Mix in brussels sprouts,pancetta and garlic. sprinkle with Salt & pepper. Spread mixture in a single layer on prepared sheet. roast until brussels sprouts are tender and brown (watch & stir occasionally), about 20 minutes. Can be made 3 hours ahead, let stand at room temp. Drizzle brussels sprouts with vinegar and sprinke with thyme. Stir to coat. Serve. (If they were standing at room temp,return to oven for 5 minutes before serving). I’m making a half recipe.
—
I’ve never ever shopped on black Friday. Erica, I thought you lived near that Walmart. To me, it’s not worth it. And I never have an exact game plan for something like that, I think if you’re going to go out at 5 a.m. you need a plan. Frankly, we don’t give that kind of gift for Christmas that you need to wait in line at 3 a.m. Never have, never will. I’ve been doing internet shopping for the last 8 years. I fill in with actual shopping, but there’s something about getting things delivered to your door, free shipping, no tax, that has an extra holiday zing to it!
(Amazon dot com is my special friend at this time of year!)
Sabathia, AJ, Marte, Rivera, Cano, Swisher, Tex, A-rod, Jeter, Posada, Brackman & Miranda = 163M
Gaudin 2.5M, Joba 450K, Hughes 450K, Bruney 1.5M, 4 young relievers 1.6M, Cabrera 2.5M, Garder 400K, Cervelli 400K = +9.8M
Pettitte resigned = 7-9M base + incentives
Damon resigned = 7-9M
Total = 187M to 191M + Pettitte’s incentives
I don’t see how we can say for sure that the Sox don’t have what it takes to get Doc……unless we can all of a sudden read Antholopous’ mind. It doesn’t matter what we think of our (or their prospects), it just matters what the Jays think.
Oh,and I haven’t said this yet, but Happy Thanksgiving to everyone! I have Friday off as well, so this will be a nice, long weekend. I have to get a dress for our offices’ Hannukah/Christmas party, but no way am I going on Friday……more like Saturday.
JK -
The Boston farm system has been overvalued for several years courtesy of a tool named Gammons.
He does little legwork to actually see Boston’s prospects other than primarily stationing himself in Fort Myers for spring training with his Red Sox and some of their Florida road games.
He never goes to Arizona to see Cactus League prospects.
Other than being in Bristol, Conn. at ESPN headquarters, or to the Cape Cod League, he relies on Elias Sports Bureau information and other sources.
On camera he comes across as a superior judge of talent which he isn’t.
The Sox can get Halladay.
The question really is, will another team offer more than the Sox.
Many teams have more in terms of top minor league talent than Boston.
but will other teams give up top talent?
if not, the Sox are in the mix.
“I don’t see how we can say for sure that the Sox don’t have what it takes to get Doc……unless we can all of a sudden read Antholopous’ mind. It doesn’t matter what we think of our (or their prospects), it just matters what the Jays think.”
Betsy,
Of course they have what it takes to get Halladay, but they only have enough trade sources to make just one big trade which means no trade for Adrian Gonzalez or Miguel Cabrera if either was on the trading block which I don’t think they are. Furthermore, I have a hard time believing the Red Sox will sign two pitchers to more than 4 year contracts with a salary per year similar to CC. Which means Beckett goes after next season or they don’t sign Halladay to a long-term deal which might not happen because Halladay might insist on a long-term deal before he approves any trade.
BD,. Doc doesn’t want to go to many teams, he wants to go to contending teams (preferrably – and this may be too kind as I’m not sure how hard line Doc is – to a team on the East Coast who trains Florida). Also, you need a team that can pay the man what he’s going to demand – after all, he’d be giving up his FA.
There’s no doubt that the Sox are in the mix. They are desperate, unlike the Yankees, so I see them as more likely to make a deal.
Phillip Hughes is the real deal…Always has been & every GB in the game knows that….Cashman will never trade him, he’s Cashman’s presonnal validation for gaining control of the Organization……The only down side to Young Master Hughes, is that he lost 2 years of development due to freak injuries…..Just think where he’d be today ????
Doreen-
Thats the thing… to some people its worth getting up before dawn to fight crowds and go shopping. I would do it if the sale is really good, but very little is worth it to me.
However, last Saturday I was out east at 7:30am for the Estee Lauder/Clinique sample sale…. totally worth it
Craw, since Gonzalez and Cabrera are not on the block at this time, the only route the Sox can/should take is to do everything they can to secure Doc. I can see them letting Beckett go, but then they’d have Halladay, Lester, Bucholz……Dice-K and Wake? You’d be switching pitcher for pitcher. Of course, if they are desperate, I can definitely see them switching gears and signing Doc/Beckett. John Henry has probably been stewing since Tex signed with the Yanks – he’s itching to do something.
I actually think the Sox can get Halladay, but they can’t get Halladay + make a deal for what they really need, which is a big bat.
Plus I’m waiting to see Theo hand over his first 20M+ per year contract to a pitcher over 30 pitcher.
If the Jays would accept a deal involving Joba I can see Halladay coming in and making Hughes even better. I believe in Hughes, in Joba I do not trust.
The Sox are a lot like the Yankees were when they were considering the Santana deal. They need a lot more than a starting pitcher. However the staff they have now is much better than the Yankee’s was at that time so Halladay would make them pretty tough when you put him in with Beckett and Lester.
Halladay’s NTC will prevent Toronto from getting everything they want from anyone.
The following article touches on the point I was trying to make yesterday. I’m not buying Cashman’s crap about not knowing his budget for 2010. He knows the parameters of his 2010 payroll budget which is why he’s completing his game plan in order to present it to ownership next week. He will have a list of possible targeted players and the different options available to the Yankees. Everything will be in a formal presentation with all the relative information, charts and graphs to support their various options.
Once he makes his formal presentation next week to ownership, they will green light him on which way to proceed with. Furthermore, if circumstances changes in which a certain player suddenly becomes available for the right asking price whether in a trade package or lower salary demands than Cashman will either go to Hal and ask permission to deviate from the approved plan if it’s in the best interest of the Yankees and within whatever payroll stucture they can live with in 2010 and beyond.
Again, I think Cashman is blowing smoke up you know what when he says he doesn’t know what his budget is right now or he’s not engage in trade talks because he hasn’t been given permission to make any trades from ownership.
Cashman is in stealth mode right now and I would take anything he says publicly with a large grain of salt. It goes back to that classic line from “The Godfather” when Vito Corleone says the following to Sonny.
“Never let anybody outside the family know what you’re thinking”
http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde....._in_h.html
After 2010 in Boston…
Youkillis, Pedroia, Lester… back loaded contracts rising
Paplebon… 10M+ a year in arbitration
Martinez… looking for 13M+ a year
Beckett… looking for 20M+ a year
Halladay… if they get him, looking for 20M+ a year @ 34
SS, 3B, DH, C… positions to fill
^^^^ this is where it starts to get expensive for the Sox.
If Mauer stays in Min, where do they turn for middle of the order position players?
“Plus I’m waiting to see Theo hand over his first 20M+ per year contract to a pitcher over 30 pitcher.”
That’s what I’m waiting for is to see the Red Sox adjust their business model. If they do that then they expose themselves to following the same game plan the Yankees have, but without the same level of revenue streams to support that revised business model.
Of course Cash is in stealth mode. And he often says things are behind where they actually are.
The filter is hating on me and I didn’t write anything bad. Let’s see if this works.
Thanks Doreen!
“Halladay’s NTC will prevent Toronto from getting everything they want from anyone.”
Unless, he gives them permission to proceed if a negotiating window is allowed during the trade talks. The key for Toronto is not getting fleece like the Twins did with Santana. I don’t think Toronto gets what they demanded last July, but they should be able to get some value greater than those two draft picks they get if Halladay walks away from them next offseason.
“Of course Cash is in stealth mode. And he often says things are behind where they actually are.”
Whatever that means….
Cashman knows the ways of the ninja
Brian, Just find me a # 5 hitter !!!!!!!!!!
crawdaddy,
The problem with Min was they kept waiting and waiting for loud mouth Hank to push Cashman to make a bad deal. Bill Smith over played his hand. Santana also forced him to make any deal by saying you either trade me now or never because there will be no deadline trade.
what do you guys think the reasoning behind the “lowering the payroll talk”. Do you think they actually care about the whining that is done around baseball? Do they not want to seem out of touch in this economy? Do they need to lower payroll for financial reasons? Ok we know that last one isn’t true.
The Yankees payroll has never bothered me because I know that other teams could do the same thing and choose not to. The Steinbrenners contrary to popular belief are not the richest owners in MLB. They just choose to win baseball games and not buy that 15th private jet…
Holiday is a #5 hitter and he plays LF. Perfect fit..
The yanks should make all their moves on black friday, they might get some pretty deals
Erica – always OPPC
November 25th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Erin-
Happy Thanksgiving. My gift to you
http://viralvideochart.unrulym…..gbNymZ7vqY
*************************
OMG Erica, that’s awesome! Thank you!!
Doreen
November 25th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
Erica/Erin -
Two teachers from my daughter’s school are holding the Abby Cadabby float!
*************************
That’s so cool! I’m very jealous.
Blake
Cashman promised George & the limited partners who were complaining about the Yankees wild spending that he would eventually get the Yankees under 190M. He also got Tex to stay out of this years market.
The clock is striking 5:25 here on The West Coast as the sun is slipping into the Pacific…..So to all my fellow LoHuders, old & new, Happy Thanksgiving Day….Can’t wait until tomorrow when The Rockettes kick off the day and then it’s time to roast a Turkey…….
crawdaddy
November 25th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
“Never let anybody outside the family know what you’re thinking”
***************************
Love it. Cashman IS the Godfather! lol
“Cashman promised George & the limited partners who were complaining about the Yankees wild spending that he would eventually get the Yankees under 190M. He also got Tex to stay out of this years market.”
It’s possible to do that, but at a cost of not repeating next season.
Craw, I think he means that Cash often says things are at one point (meaning, for instance, that they are about to hold their meetings to discuss various plans), when in actuality they are further ahead in the game (meaning they’ve already held preliminary discussions). In other words, Cash lies………….In the case of Halladay, there is no way I believe that Cash and Hal haven’t talked at all.
JK
November 25th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
After 2010 in Boston…
Youkillis, Pedroia, Lester… back loaded contracts rising
Paplebon… 10M+ a year in arbitration
Martinez… looking for 13M+ a year
Beckett… looking for 20M+ a year
Halladay… if they get him, looking for 20M+ a year @ 34
SS, 3B, DH, C… positions to fill
^^^^ this is where it starts to get expensive for the Sox.
If Mauer stays in Min, where do they turn for middle of the order position players?
……………………….
The combination of Ortiz, Lowell, and Varitek only sees $27M coming off the books. After 2011 Drew’s $15.75 comes off the books.
With no substantial prospects being major league ready, Boston is forced to use free agency.
I don’t get that myself, Blake, other than to say that Hal is a businessman and he doesn’t care quite so much about winning as his dad. I really appreciated the $$$ he spent bringing in the big FAs, but at the deadline, the Yankees had some holes to fill and it seemed like Hal was being penny wise, pound foolish (that he didn’t want to go over budget to plug these leaks). It didn’t end up costing us, but it could have. Still, Cash did get Gaudin and that was an under the radar move; he did a nice job for us and could be an interesting pitcher to watch in 2010 (meaning he’s pretty versatile).
“No, I am merely suggesting that their medical experts and their experience with pitchers should be considered before reflexively trading Joba.”
I don’t think anyone is suggesting “reflexively” trading Chamberlain. I think some people think even when fully considering what he’s shown and the potential upside that suggests, that Halladay is still the better bet over the next 4 years.
With the revenue streams that the Yankees have I don’t really see what difference a 210M payroll would have over a 190M payroll especially if the 210M payroll wins the WS and the 190M one doesn’t….
I have watched Buchholz a number of times. I try to be fair. He looks capable with a very good changeup. I don’t see the rest of his stuff as above average.
I think Joba and Hughes have a higher upside stuffwise.
I think winning changes a lot of things regarding the payroll. While they are looking to lower it this year, they know the window is open for a repeat and a run. So, while I think they will stand by their plan to only pay one big hitters salary, I wouldn’t be surprised if they then traded for another bat and excused themselves. I’m not sure Damon is their first choice for left. It should be interesting.
Betsy, Remember in the end the Steinbrenners will need a dump truck to cart away the dough they made this season…The World Series alone must have added 50 million to the Clubs worth……You spend money to make money & that’ll put fannies in the seats, and advertisers lining up for commercail spots and sponsorships……Fiscal guidlines is quite different that fiscal restraint……
Stan,
Yes, they will be forced to use free agency, but on who? That is the question. If Mauer stays in Min all you have is Crawford who is not a middle of the order bat. Most of the best free agents next year will be pitchers.
Not signing Tex has really screwed up their long term planning
Uncle E:
“I hope you’ll Take a break to listen to a few bars of Alice’s Restaurant”
You can get anything you want at Alice’s Restaurant, exceptin’ Alice… Man oh man, the good old days of Dave Herman and WNEW FM 102.7 (And don’t forget the Nightbird, Alison Steele).
Geez Louise. That radio station in its heyday is why I joined up as an undergrad at WFUV at Fordham at Rose Hill. In the end, it was only a brief dalliance behind the mic. Doing the early show meant real early and trying to remember how to pronounce Alzo Sprach Zarathustra for the classical music show was tough. Every so often we had to leave the mic and go make sure the light was lit on top of the radio antenna – which has since moved from Keating Hall, but I digress.
For a brief shining moment I was going to be an FM DJ in part because of the kind of magic that was the Thanksgiving playing of Alice’s Restaurant on WNEW FM.
Tug Hulett… the answer to the Sox problems??? LOL
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ne.....;type=lgns
“Hypothetically, what if the $15 million enables the Yankees to fit Mauer into the budget should he reach free agency?”
I believe that Yanks have a budget, but I also believe the Yanks wouldn’t let $15 million (particularly in light of the multiple 8-figure contracts that expire or have opt-outs between 2011 when Mauer hits the market and 2014) stand between them and perhaps someday the greatest catcher of all time.
And on that note, nor a Cy Young candidate for the next decade still in his mid-20′s (Hernandez).
Do I think $15m could be a budget buster for the likes of John Lackey and Matt Holliday? Perhaps even Carl Crawford or Cliff Lee?
Yeah maybe…
But for Mauer or Hernandez? No f-in way…
murphydog-
You can heat it now at 12pm on Q104.3 in New York on Thanksgiving Day. Not sure where you live, but if you are out of town they stream online
Mauer seems like the kind of guy that would give a hometown discount. I think he signs an extension this winter…sadly..
Erica – always OPPC
Thanks a bunch. I’m in NY so it shouldn’t be a problem.
You can get anything you want at Alice’s Restaurant…
http://www.arlo.net/resources/lyrics/alices.shtml
“And I went up there, I said, “Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,
KILL, KILL.” And I started jumpin up and down yelling, “KILL, KILL,” and he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down yelling, “KILL, KILL.” And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,
sent me down the hall, said, “You’re our boy.” “
Hal would not green light any moves that added money at the trading deadline and they pulled back 2-3M in the draft, so I don’t think the Yankees will be over 195M this year.
The GM, Hal & limited partners all want the payroll reduced going forward.
Oh c’mon Blake, I know we want the Yankees do win every year, but do we REALLY want to see a league where all the great players inevitably wind up in NY or Boston?
I’m a Yankee fan but I’m also a baseball fan. Mauer is FROM Minnesota for pete’s sake. If there was ever a guy you’d route for staying put, it’s got to be him.
Let ONE of the Yankees 8 catching prospects come through. I hope Mauer retires as a first ballot hall of famer/life-long Twin, and that he loses to the Yanks in the post-season a few more times during his career.
murphydog-
if a bunch of people do it, it’s a movement
Stuckey,
I love watching Mauer play and would love to see him in pinstripes but also am with you in that I’d like to see a guy like that stay put in the state he grew up in.
As a baseball fan, it would be ideal if every owner in MLB cared about winning and were willing re-invest in their team. The reality is that there are about 8 teams that have owners that care…
Murph…..Oh did I love Allison Steele circa 1970-1973…Many a late night listening to her & The Moody Blues………Happy Thanksgiving Murph….Hang tough
“Oh c’mon Blake, I know we want the Yankees do win every year, but do we REALLY want to see a league where all the great players inevitably wind up in NY or Boston?”
In Boston? No In New York? Yes
Obviously, Minny has to and will resign Mauer, so he is not a possibility.
I’ve said this once and I’ll say it a hundred times, if the next owners of the NYY were the Abu Dhabi Group (the ones who bought Manchester City FC) and they spent $500 million a year like they did this past year on Man City, then I’m all for it.
Yankees and their fans should not care about the rest of baseball, because the rest of baseball dont care about them!
And if you’re talking about staying put in a place he grew up in, and in a Mexican community in which he is of Mexican descent, I hope Adrian Gonzalez stays in SD his entire career. Especially when the only alternative is being gifted to the Red Sox.
Who would trade Montero in a deal for Felix?
JK,
That was before they won it all for the first time in a long time. It’s easier to justifying adding if you have to when the window is inarguably open.
Pat M.
Thanks, Bud. Have a great Thanksgiving.
Erica:
“if a bunch of people do it, it’s a movement.”
I agree.
Everybody have a great Thanksgiving!
“If there was ever a guy you’d route for staying put, it’s got to be him.”
Good because I’ve never cared if any non-Yankee player stayed put.
If we could sign Mauer, by all means.
But we won’t. They’ll rename Minnesota Mauersota if they have to.
Still, if he reaches FA, I’m all for signing him.
I wish there were more players that were able to play their entire career for 1 team. In that regard, I hope Mauer and Mourneau stay as Twins, just as I hope to see Jeter, Mariano, and Posada retire as Yankees. It’s a shame that Pettitte didn’t get that opportunity. My favorite Yankee pitcher, Ron Guidry did, thankfully.
What other active players have played for only 1 team. Halladay is one, I believe.
Better bet over the next 4 years? Not so sure I agree with that one.
4 years is a LONG time in baseball. A very long time actually.
If Chamberlain and Hughes are as good as we and the Yankees think they are then there’s mo way I trade any of them for Halladay.
Look at what Sabathia, Lee and Santana were traded for. Lee was actually more valuable than Halladay is considering the Phillies got to have him for parts of two seasons.That’s the guideline for Halladay in my opinion.
You don’t trade multiple major league and near major league guys for a 33 year old pitcher who’s
going to command 20 million a year. That’s just not good business saavy. If the Sox want to go that route than let them and sign Lackey.
I agree with Raymagnetic, except I wouldn’t even sign Lackey. Let’s give Hughes and Joba and chance, Wang will be back by the middle of the year for depth hopefully (I’d like to resign him, give him a shot).
I agree with Raymagnetic too, but would rather give Sheets a chance than Wang.
I was just reading the Jim Callis chat wrap and came across this doozy…..
“It seems like Kelly is a potential hold up in Halladay going to the Red Sox. Why would either side balk at a 20 year old in A ball with only 2 pitches. He plays so much SS we don’t even know if he can endure 100 innings let alone 200.
Callis: Kelly is a three-pitch guy with tremendous feel for his age, so don’t undersell him.”
What does that answer even mean? I don’t understand how one can quantify “feel”. Does he have more “feel” than Zach McAllister who has dominated AA? Does putting on the Red Sox minor league uniform make you “feel” better to the scouts for BA and Peter Gammons? I wish someone could explain the obsession with these Sox prospects that if with any other team, would be considered zeroes and nobodies.
I agree on Hughes. I don’t agree on Joba. I think theres a very good chance he ends up in the pen longterm and if that turns out to be true then you have passed on a Cy Young winner for a relief pitcher.
I love Sheets Crawdaddy so if no Halladay then I’d love to see him in pinstripes. I think Sheets is better and cheaper than Lackey if he’s 100%
Late to the discussion, as I was helping the mrs. cut veges for tomorrow –
I’ve said for a while, Ben Sheets is where the action is going to be. I’m actually surprised the Red Sox haven’t been linked to him, as they seem to be “involved” with just about every FA.
If Sheets’ medicals and his “tryout” are OK, then I bet the Yanks go after him. He would be a one year deal or so, and wouldn’t cost Joba or Phil. The only trade candidate I would take instead of him would be Josh Johnson, for the obvious reasons of young age and dominant, power arm.
And if the Yankees trade for Johnson (or anyone else), it likely would involve at least two pitchers, so Justin Duscherer (sp?) would make great sense to fill that gap.
Bill James projects Joba for a 3.94 ERA and 11 wins in ’10.
I’d take that in a cocaine heartbeat.
Actually Josh Johnson isn’t a trade candidate according to the Marlins owner. IMO, JJ is like Felix, I don’t expect either one to be dealt this offseason.
“Yankees and their fans should not care about the rest of baseball, because the rest of baseball dont care about them!”
Caring about the game of baseball and caring about other baseball teams is not the same thing.
And call me crazy, but I would like to see the Yankee beat GOOD teams in the playoffs. I still like a good game, which is why I’d rather go see the Yanks play the Sox or the Angels rather than the A’s or Orioles.
Winning against a real rival is a little more satisfying, I’d argue.
Also, I don’t believe the stuff that the Red Sox are leaking to the media either. I expect them to kick the tires on Sheets too. Right now, it’s all smoke and mirrors what the Red Sox and Yankees are really thinking of doing this offseason.
3.94 out of Joba isn’t too bad at all. However, he has shown that he can do that while pitching 5 innings, if he can extend that to 6 or 7 innings, that will be the progress we need to see. I also hope a little more from Joba than 11 wins, but as long as he keeps us in games, I’ll be happy.
“Look at what Sabathia, Lee and Santana were traded for. Lee was actually more valuable than Halladay is considering the Phillies got to have him for parts of two seasons.That’s the guideline for Halladay in my opinion.”
Raymagnetic-
Totally agree and mentioned that much earlier, plus as a lefty in Yankee Stadium, Lee would have been more valuable. Philly got him for basically nothing-Carrasco and a bunch of no names, and some people here are willing to give up AJax, Montero, not to mention major league ready talent in Hughes or Joba, for Halladay.
Montero is the best Yankee hitting prospect in years, and is off limits IMO!
The only way I consider trading Hughes or Joba is for a young pitcher in return like Josh Johnson of the Marlins. I’d even take on Uggla if that would help seal the deal, and spin him off in another trade.
“And call me crazy, but I would like to see the Yankee beat GOOD teams in the playoffs.”
I disagree. This year, when we were the best, was a blast. 19998 was a blast.
And you know what? 96′ was a blast. 00′ was a blast.
Championship years are always fun to me, regardless of the level of competition.
Even though the Twins were mediocre, that epic comeback in game 2 was still great baseball. And game 3 wasn’t shaby either. In fact the Twins put up the best baseball game of all three teams the Bombers faced. Do you really care that they weren’t good?
crawdaddy – oh, you’re absolutely right. The Marlins would have to be bowled over to trade Johnson, as they have no pressing need to do so.
And both the Yankees and Red Sox, as well as most of the other teams I’d wager, use the media to plant stories to get points across, to the public and to whomever in the industry, or to blow smoke. It’s hard sometimes to sort out what’s accurate from what is a commercial or disinformation.
Heyya-176 innings.
BTW, he has not shown he could do that for four or five innings. His ERA this year was 4.75 in 157.1
I’d sign up for the Bill James Joba in a cocaine heartbeat subtracted by a NY minute.
“crawdaddy – oh, you’re absolutely right. The Marlins would have to be bowled over to trade Johnson, as they have no pressing need to do so.”
————————————————–
Money with a cheap owner in Loria with the refusal to grant a 4 year extension to Johnson+multiple arbitration eligible players.
a 4.00 ERA and 10-12 wins might be all Joba ever is as a starter. Nobody really knows what he is at this point except that he was really good out of the pen and threw 100 MPH in 2007.
A 3.94 ERA in 176 innings from a starter Joba’s age is excellent.
The problem with that 3.94 in 176 innings is that he hasn’t done it yet.
Blake-Of course. But the Yankees expect him to be good and those are his statistical projections.
I’d be thrilled with that.
Wanting Halladay doesn’t make you a bad person.
I try not to read chats conducted by Law or Callis because their hyperbole on Sox prospects are ludicrous.
The Yankees loved, loved Sheets last year – I wouldn’t be surprised if they kicked the tires on him. However, he’s been linked (or he was, last year) to the Rangers and I expect he’ll end up there.
Forget Felix, forget Johnson – neither are on the block.
A 4.00 ERA in the same number of innings would be good enough at his age IMO.
In 11′ I think he becomes the pitcher the Yanks think he can be.
Not a really bad person, at least.
If Cashman called Seattle and said I’ll give you Joba and Montero for Felix I bet they’d listen.
I’m sure Seattle would listen to Joba and Montero for Felix. I would dislike losing those 2 guys however.
Yes, Joba was at a 4.75 ERA this year, but his ERA in August and September was over 7 combined. It may have been fatigue; I prefer to think, and hope, that it is because of the ridiculous way they used him. In ’10, the shackles should be off, we will get to see what he is capable of. Hopefully, he follows the lead of Hughes and Cano, and gets himself in really good shape after a disappointing season.
And here’s more fodder:
http://www.newsday.com/columni.....-1.1622813
“If Cashman called Seattle and said I’ll give you Joba and Montero for Felix I bet they’d listen.”
It depends if they think they can sign Felix or not.
You got me all wrong. In 09′ I was arguing that he was WORSE than Heyya implied him to be. 4.75 in 150 innings is awful. Which is why a 2010 rennaisance would be even more impressive.
I would too but I would like getting Felix more than I disliked losing them. Joba and Felix are the same age and Felix is already a Cy Young Candidate and Montero has never seen a major league pitch and all objective reports say he can’t stick behind the plate in the big leagues. If he can’t catch then his value decreases quite a bit.
“I’m sure Seattle would listen to Joba and Montero for Felix”
If a team had offered any two players in baseball for Mariano in ’99, would/should the Yankees have done it? Some players really are untouchable. From Seattle’s point of view, I wouldn’t trade him for anybody, at least until they are 100% that they couldn’t re-sign him.
I was watching the Duke game for literally 20 seconds and Dickie V says about some kid or player in the crowd with a Yankees hat on (the kid must be somebody).
“Come on, Dyson, you’re from New England. Why you gotta Yankees hat on? Get a Red Sox hat on. Come on, dont be a frontrunner, get a REd Sox hat on!”
I would not trade Montero AND Joba. MAYBE one alone. But not both.
Anyway, maybe Seattle would listen, but they wouldn’t pull the trigger even if we offered Joba and Montero IMO.
Nick in SF in Nick in SF in Pikesville, MD wrote:
“Wanting Halladay doesn’t make you a bad person.”
Despite being a lapsed Catholic I can still recall that it’s not the temptation necessarily that is sinful – unless we invite it – it’s the decision to act on it that is sinful. [Contra: the Gospel according to George (Carlin), thinking about "it" is a sin all by itself].
I feel compelled to point out that Cashman went to Catholic U and is I believe a Catholic himself. So if anyone understands the dichotomy that Nick points out when it comes to Halladay, it’s Cash Money.
And before any of you Amateur Fascist Thought Police try to jump me for mentioning religion here, consider two things:
1) I’ve been sneaking a little pre-holiday schnapps and,
2) I’M KIDDING!
Interesting, since Dickie V had always said he was a Yankee fan…until last year, when he was the Rays head fan and cheerleader. He was back to being a Yankee fan this year, though.
Well Seattle won’t get a better offer than that and they won’t be able to sign him after his contract is up without a big discount.
Blake-Then they won’t trade him.
It’s not like Seattle is poor. They’re not the Rays or Twins.
No Seattle isn’t poor but they have never re-signed their big free agents (Griffey, Arod, Randy Johnson), why would they start now. Felix may get the biggest pitcher contract in baseball history. You think they are going to go there, I don’t..
Mark in Tampa
I know he has always been a Yankee fan, maybe not a true fan, but has a lot of respect for Jeter and the professionalism shown by Jeter.
I could not believe it when I heard it. Oh well. He lost his sanity decades ago.
The only team that Dookie V knows for sure he likes is the Dook blue devils
Then they’ll let him walk.
Seattle is competitive, no reason to trade him.
Are they the same ownership/management group as in those days? They did sign Ichiro to a huge extension that was criticized because it was out of line for a player of his type. If anybody is going to be worth signing as a FA, it is Felix. Also, I think the Arod move was his choice, he was determined to test the market.
“Well Seattle won’t get a better offer than that and they won’t be able to sign him after his contract is up without a big discount.”
Not sure how you could draw either conclusion.
Nick in SF, Well do tell me about your efforts on the Par 3 # 5 hole ??????
They are competitive but if you’re losing the only reason you are competitive to free agency then whats the point.
He’s not a FA yet. When he is we may be thinking differently of young Joba and Montero.
Stuckey,
Do you see a team offering a deal better than Montero and Joba? The reason they won’t re-sign him is because he will probably get the biggest pitcher contract in history if he hits free agency.
I think the Yankees are going to make a blockbuster trade to get Mauer, not Halladay.
Hold it… oh no… I’m out of schnapps! Hmmm. Wait, I think I saw some Bailey’s Irish Creme somewhere…
They’re not trading Montero.
Expectations are so high on Montero I don’t see how they can go anywhere but down and I don’t have any clue what Joba will be doing in 2 years…
Everyone needs a Halladay now and then…
Duschecher (sp?) dealing with clinical depression? He was scratched from a rehab start late last season for something that was not physical. Seemed like an odd thing when it happened. Hope he’s coping well.
“Amateur Fascist Thought Police”
Don’t worry he works for the Globe now.
So wait two years and find out.
Stuckey
I don’t think anyone is suggesting “reflexively” trading Chamberlain. I think some people think even when fully considering what he’s shown and the potential upside that suggests, that Halladay is still the better bet over the next 4 years.
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If you scroll up, you will see that the post I initially responded to (I think her name is Valerie) didn’t even want to read that Halladay’s age could be a factor, so of course the Yankees should trade Joba. That’s as reflexive as Pavlov’s dog.
new post
“Do you see a team offering a deal better than Montero and Joba?”
I think the problem is I’m not sure Chamberlain’s regard around the league if what you think it may be.
There are MANY people out there who believe his future is in the bullpen, and I have to believe that includes some major league teams.
And Montero may not find a position, and a DH is going to lose some market value, no matter how strong a bat he may be.
“The reason they won’t re-sign him is because he will probably get the biggest pitcher contract in history if he hits free agency.”
And won’t Mauer get the largest contract for an everyday player this side of A-Rod?
Or will that be Pujols?
And what about Lincecum? And Greinke? And Hanley Ramirez?
Now some of them have signed extensions, but I believe they’ll ALL be free agents by 2014. The Yanks and Sox can’t sign them all, can they?
“If you scroll up, you will see that the post I initially responded to (I think her name is Valerie) didn’t even want to read that Halladay’s age could be a factor, so of course the Yankees should trade Joba. That’s as reflexive as Pavlov’s dog.”
I read her posts, and I didn’t think she was arguing age wasn’t a factor, she was factoring it in and coming to a different conclusion you did about the factor.
Let me ask you outright. 2010-14, considered as a whole, who do you think is the more valuable, or better performing pitcher, Halladay or Chamberlain?
Besides last year, what is Sheets’ injury history?
I remember there was some website that analyzed the pitching motions of players and showed that Sheets put a tremendous strain on his arm (with motion and lack of proper leg positioning), so it wasn’t surprising his arm blew out.
“I read her posts, and I didn’t think she was arguing age wasn’t a factor, she was factoring it in and coming to a different conclusion you did about the factor.”
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Valerie G.
Rich in NJ–I’ll be nice because it’s almost Thanksgiving, but it so happens there will be no decline, and no, I’m not lying to myself or being delusional. He has at least 5 good years left.
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She explicitly says otherwise, refusing to consider other outcomes, unlike yourself. That’s why I called it reflexive.
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“Let me ask you outright. 2010-14, considered as a whole, who do you think is the more valuable, or better performing pitcher, Halladay or Chamberlain?”
Based on the facts we have, Halladay. No question. He has more of a track record. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that will be the case.
Also, there are other things to consider, like financial issues given the payroll commitments they already have, and the other players or prospects going to Toronto. And as Phil said, we could be selling low on Joba.
Don’t get me wrong, I want Halladay, but I think Joba has a chance to a great pitcher and I am reluctant to give him up.
Before anyone rushes to overpay for Halladay:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....-done-soon