Who gets your vote for the Hall?
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 27, 2009 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
This year’s Hall of Fame ballot was announced this afternoon, with Roberto Alomar headlining the first-timers and Andre Dawson and Bert Blyleven the top returning vote-getters. I’m a long way from getting a vote, but this is what my ballot would look like as of tonight. Ask me tomorrow and I might have changed my mind. Frankly, I love that there is no definition for what makes a Hall of Famer. Good, smart baseball people can disagree. The gray area makes the decisions difficult and that’s exactly the way it should be.
Would, without question, get my vote
Roberto Alomar – A great all-around player throughout the 1990s. He hit for average, showed good speed, played great defense at second base and played well in the postseason. I’m sure a lot of people dislike the guy, but there’s no doubt he could play.
Would, after much second guessing, get my vote
Andre Dawson — We talk a lot about five-tool players these days, and Dawson was a five-tool major leaguer. Great arm. Good speed. Hit for a ton of power. I think of him as a dominant player, and that’s what I want in the Hall of Fame.
Barry Larkin — When Larkin was still playing, I thought of him as a future Hall of Famer. He was a really nice hitter at a premium defensive position and he might have won more than three Gold Gloves if he weren’t playing in a league with Ozzie Smith.
Mark McGwire – Not an easy choice, but the more we learn about the Steroid Era, the more I’m convinced McGwire should be in the Hall of Fame. There are plenty who disagree – probably most people disagree – but I would put him in.
Would not, after much second guessing, get my vote
Bert Blyleven – There was a time when I was firmly in the Blyleven-belongs-in-the-Hall camp, but I no longer think he had a dominant enough peak to be a Hall of Famer. He was very, very good for a long, long time, but I think the Hall should be full of players who were overwhelming at some point. I’m not sure Blyleven ever was. If he gets in, though, I won’t be upset about it.
Edgar Martinez – He’s exactly the kind of hitter I love – more walks than strikeouts, a lot of doubles — but I don’t think I would vote for him. It will be fascinating to see what happens with him. With apologies to Harold Baines, Martinez is the first great designated hitter to appear on the ballot.
Don Mattingly – Absolute proof that not all great players are necessarily Hall of Famers. Wouldn’t make my ballot, but I don’t think anyone could blame you if he made yours.
Dale Murphy – Kind of like Blyleven, I once firmly believed Murphy should be a Hall of Famer. Unlike Blyleven, Murphy’s peak was terrific — back-to-back MVPs, five 100 RBI seasons — but I’m not sure it was sustained long enough.
Jack Morris – A great player who pitched one of the great postseason games of all time. But not a Hall of Famer.
Tim Raines – I think I might come around some day. Right now, I don’t think of Raines as a Hall of Famer, but I’m always amazed at how much better his numbers are than what I might expect them to be.
Lee Smith – I actually typed his name into the “would” category before moving him down here. I honestly might change my mind again tomorrow. Throughout his career, Smith had one job to do and he did that job very well. Maybe I would vote for him afterall…
Not Hall of Famers, but I hope they get some votes
Dave Parker – Big guy with a big bat and a big arm. Always liked him as a player.
Alan Trammell — Another favorite. Trammell put up pretty good career numbers, and he hit especially well in his only World Series. Personally, I probably liked him more than I liked Larkin, but I think Larkin was a slightly better player.
Robin Ventura — Can you imagine how many times he’s had to watch that video of Nolan Ryan punching him in the head? It’s a separate part of his Wikipedia page! Someone give the guy a Hall of Fame vote for his troubles.
Ray Lankford – The 12-year-old version of myself would have voted for him. That’s what happens when you grow up in Southeast Missouri.
The full list of candidates
Roberto Alomar
Kevin Appier
Harold Baines
Bert Blyleven
Ellis Burks
Andre Dawson
Andres Galarraga
Pat Hentgen
Mike Jackson
Eric Karros
Ray Lankford
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Tim Raines
Shane Reynolds
David Segui
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Robin Ventura
Todd Zeile
happy thanksgiving to all the would be hall of famers. (and lohuders, too.)
Blyleven belongs. Nuff said!
I find it amazing that Trammell is still getting yearly votes (9th year on the ballot) and his infield partner Lou Whitaker was a one year and done.
6 time All Star Trammell had 2,365 hits.
5 time All Star Whitaker had 2,369 hits.
I’m not saying either is HOF worthy – I just never thought one stood out over the other.
Chad, nice job……I can’t really comment about anyone on the list except to say that I will be forever ticked at the baseball gods for what they did to Donnie, lol. I adored this man – he was one of the few things that Yankee fans could be proud of during the worst of times. He was a brilliant hitter and phenomenal 1B and he should have been in the HOF by now……….but, of course, a back injury intervened.
One thing on Jack Morris – I can’t get past his ERA that is close to 4.00 for his career. I know very well about his game 7 of the 1991 WS……but a 3.9 something ERA? Ouch.
Timmy Raines was a wonderful player and I loved him on the Yankees – I hope he’s doing ok now; doesn’t he have lupus?
I hope McGwire never gets in the HOF…….
Da Saint, AJ pitched over 200 innings…..
My poor sister. My oldest sister came from Westchester with her family today and she was bringing with her this dessert she knows I love. It’s made in a 13×9 Pyrex dish – with a walnut crust, chocolate pudding and a Cool Whip topping. Around 3:30, she calls the house and tells my mother this horror story. She had made the dessert and put it on a stovetop burner. Unfortunately, my sister also felt like having tea at that time and heated the stove up so she could put the tea kettle on hit. Well, she heated up the burner with the pyrex on it and the whole thing exploded in the kitchen – glass, walnut crust, everything (the crust was the only part that was in the pyrex). My sister was in the kitchen and was very fortunate not to get struck by flying pieces of glass…..I mean, there were shards and fragments of different sizes just blown all over the place – what a scary situation.
This is more insight than usual into why the Hall of Fame is often a joke. Raines should have been in already. Edgar belongs. Trammel and Larkin belong. McGwire belongs if we are willing to concede they’ve already taken some roiders. Blyleven belongs…
Pass on Andre Dawson and his abysmal OBP…
Actually, Trammel probably doesn’t belong.
I did a little more digging on Lou Whitaker to try and find out why the HOF voters never gave him more love – and I found this quote –
“His arm was considered one of the best in the game and he was adept at making the pivot. (He) made plays look so easy he was often accused of being lackadaisical”
Hmmm… that sounds familiar.
Yes, they were talking about Sweet Lou Whitaker – not Robinson Cano.
Sweet Lou should be in.
1. Pyrex: I rent a room in my house and my tenant just did the exploding pyrex dish thing. He also escaped unscathed but makes me wonder how many people are not so lucky.
2. Gardner (from previous thread discussion): If you look at his overall offensive numbers for ’09, he looks plausible. But he had a big dropoff after his 5-6 game against the Mets on 6/26. He was in a deep slump for a full month before he got hurt on 7/25, was not much better in September, and put up an 0-10 in the WS with an .000 OBP and 4 SOs.
Maybe BG can bounce back. But you can’t even think about dealing away Melky without having another CF solution.
Edgar Martinez was a hitting machine. Because much of his career was as a DH doesn’t bother me.
Much the same with Harold Baines.
Bert Blyleven had nearly 4,000 strikeouts yet some people say Schilling belongs. Why ?
It seems the criteria changes fron player to player. I’ve never understood it.
Edgar also won a silver slugger award at 3B once.
Timo, true – it’s easy to get careless, especially when you are busy. I’m glad your tenant was ok.
Also, I agree with you on Brett Gardner.
GB, if you are out there, you might appreciate the following. A poster named Scouting the Sally posted the following on NYYFans:
As somebody who saw both in person, I’m very comfortable in my belief Casey Kelly is the better prospect. Yes, Banuelos has the advantage in age and maybe even fastball when his being a lefty is taken into consideration.
However, Kelly has much more velocity projection due to his having a fantastic pitcher’s build and being a plus athlete. Kelly also has two quality breaking pitches with the curveball already a plus pitch and the change is not far behind.
Banuelos has a nifty little curveball, but his changeup is borderline average at best. Also, he’s under 6′ so there’s little fastball projection left. He’s also not as good of an athlete as Kelly.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Banuelos A LOT! However, Kelly was the best pitcher I saw this season while Banuelos is squarely in the second tier with the likes of Stolmy Pimentel, Kyle Allen, Jeurys Familia, and a handful of other guys.
To compare both based solely on age and fastball velocity is doing Casey Kelly a disservice and simply picking and choosing the information a Yankees fan wants without looking at the whole picture.
__________________
***I know you like Banuelos quite a bit………I have to say that this guy said he saw both Kelly and Banuelos just once. I find it hard to believe someone could pass judgment on players as prospects based on 1 start/1 game….especially when it comes to projecting them some years into the future.
Nine of ten Similar Pitchers to Blyleven at Baseball Reference’s are HoFers. I think he belongs.
http://www.baseball-reference......be01.shtml
Question for you Chad, would you leave a player off of your ballot if you don’t think he fits the bill of “first ballot hall of famer?” if it was the first year of their eligibility? In my opinion I understand some players have to wait, but isn’t 5 years enough usually to get 90% of the players in on the first ballot?
Also, I am firmly of the belief that for his body of work- Billy Martin is a Hall of Famer. He’s the opposite of Joe Torre as a player- not hall of fame worthy at all but great in big spots and he did a bundle with his managerial career- he NEVER gets discussed though-
Betsy – I’m happy for you that your sister was not hurt.
DT – VERY interesting. Robbie does get a bum rap, in my opinion.
I think Edgar Martinez was the first truly great DH. I know I hated seeing him bat against the Yankees. He would get my vote. And Lee Smith, also. I never understood why he kept getting traded. All he did was get guys out.
How the heck did Todd Zeile make the ballot?
No, I wouldn’t leave a player off simply because I thought he wasn’t a first-ballot Hall of Famer. You’re either a Hall of Famer or you’re not.
How did Edgar Martineznot win the AL MVP in 1995 when he hit .356? Mo Vaughn?
http://www.baseball-reference......html#ALmvp
Good man Chad, I agree-
Josh Johnson per MLBtraderumors being made available by the Fins- that will make the Doc trade story more interesting-
also a story that Halladay wants to pitch in the bronx per mlbtraderumors.com
Very interesting- maybe talking to his buddy AJ?
Roberto – the winner gets Johnson, the loser, so to speak, gets Halladay, for obvious reasons.
Here’s hoping Cash can get it done, at the right price.
headline a little misleading- story just that he would waive a no trade clause to the Bronx-
Joe, thanks – we were lucky. She was so sweet, too. After the disaster, she started making another one and we finished putting it together at my house…..
I don’t get this “first ballot” issue. If someone is HOF worthy, they should be elected first time out. Do their numbers suddenly get better after a year of waiting? It has to do with high and mighty sporstwriters who love having the power to determine who gets in and who doesn’t. This responsibility has gone to their heads; I wish there was a better method of selecting HOFers.
agree- Josh Johnson is the number 2 target (after Felix)- Doc number 3…here’s hoping the new GM for Toronto panics a bit and accepts a Twins/Santana-esque package of McCalister/Kennedy and Jackson plus a lower level prospect for Doc.
If Halladay wants to pitch here, he needs to tell the Jays that he will *only* pitch for the Yankees.
good point ace- i think belle and martinez both more deserving- maybe it was Mo’s slick fielding that clinched it for him…
looks like maybe the mariner’s (buhner/edgar and randy) split the vote and belle was universally hated/mo universally loved- that’s all I can think of-
So that should be “Doc Wouldn’t Mind Pitching in the Bronx”?
“Halladay will waive his no trade to pitch for the Yankees”…. Well duh..
Why are people still talking about Felix? He’s not available and I doubt he will be anytime soon. As such, the Yankees are not targeting him. It’s pure fantasy to even speculate about him…..
No one knows what’s going through Doc’s mind. Like I said about Santana, if Doc really wants to play for the Yankees he will make that clear to the Jays. I don’t think he would do that. However, I mentioned this possibility earlier. Doc wants to get out of Toronto, so maybe he would accept a trade to a non-East Coast contender……………but he would not sign an extension. Why should he, when he can go where he wants to and get his last big $$$ contract next year as a FA? Now, if this is the case, that puts the Jays in a tight spot because no team will give them what they are looking for for 1 year of Doc. In that case, maybe they hold onto Doc for 1 year and take the pics.
I wonder if the Jays will even bother having serious talks with teams not on Doc’s list. I mean, what’s the point of doing that? They did that with the Rangers last year…..waste of time.
Well, I should not be concerned about the Red Sox getting Josh Johnson.
Last time, they took a bad contract from the Marlins, and gave the number 1 prospect in baseball to get Beckett.
This time, their organizational number 1 prospect Buchholz is not even all that good.
And the Marlins do not have any Mike Lowell contracts.
According to Gawker, Jeter will be named Sports Illustrated’s Sportsman of the Year.
http://gawker.com/5414123/dere.....f-the-year
Betsy, I think many people see similarities between Josh Johnson’s situation and the King’s situation. Wasn’t it pure speculation a couple of weeks ago that Johnson, a 25 year old power pitcher would be available? Logic would seem to dictate that the Mariner’s should try to lock him up long term, and if they cannot then they have to get something for him-
If people didn’t talk about things that could possibly happen there would be much less to talk about-
Wow Betsy. Seems like you and your sister both averted disaster today!
Betsy – h o p
“No one knows what’s going through Doc’s mind.”
Not in detail, but we do know that he wants to pitch for a winner, that he wants to get paid, and that he is close to AJ.
speaking of Kings..Lundy pulled in an ugly Rangers performance-
Alomar
McGwire
Raines
Larkin
Blyleven
Martinez
Trammell
Raines and Blyleven both should have been in long ago; I can’t fathom someone voting for Andre Dawson but not for those two guys or Edgar.
Surprising that Fred McGriff wasn’t considered comment-worthy. I don’t think I’d vote for him, but he’s awful close. At least as deserving as Dawson.
JasonR
November 27th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
According to Gawker, Jeter will be named Sports Illustrated’s Sportsman of the Year.
http://gawker.com/5414123/dere…..f-the-year
************************
Awesome. Must buy that issue. Or I’ll just steal my brother’s
Jason, thanks!
LOL How great is that? What a year for Jeter – the WS, Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente and now SI Sportsman of the Year awards? Plus a 3rd place finish in the MVP race
The guy from Scouting the Sally got absoluted stomped over at NYYfans.
Man, I haven’t thought about NYYFans in a looong time.
The around the minors section is still good.
Roberto, that’s true……but the M’s have more $$ than the Marlins (certainly more of a willingness to spend it). I don’t mean to curtail talking about Felix, but the Yankees have to deal in reality and can’t wait until he “may” become available. They have to act on what they know now.
Erin, just my sister – but yes, she was very lucky. They still need to be careful walking around in their kitchen as I’m sure there are shards of glass still stuck in places they didn’t get to.
I’m watching Bedknobs and Broomsticks now……still as good as I remember. I love Mary Poppins (as you mentioned earlier). My favorite song is “Just a Spoon full of Sugar”…..
Rich, true…….but we don’t know to what extent he will use his NTC. If I’m him, I might just refuse to go anywhere and wait until next year. The uncertainty of the situation last year seemed to unsettle him and I wonder if he’s going to want to go through the same thing now.
Phil, you gave it pretty good. I don’t know who that guy is…..I will say I doubt posters there (maybe even me) would be saying what they said about him if he had picked Banuelos ahead of Kelly.
I like most of the posters on NYYFans, but a few of them are real you-know-whats. I asked a ? about Montero’s poor BA in winter ball and I got smoked. I didn’t even bother responding as those guys seem to have their own clique
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsman_of_the_Year
How crazy is it that Jeter will be the first Yankee to be named SI SMOY?
What the hell- they didn’t like Mantle’s 56? They didn’t like the Yankees as a team in 1961/98? Roger Maris?
They have it to McGwire and Sosa in ’98. Uh oh…
Betsy,
I’m a loner over there. I don’t why you got smoked for asking about Montero. It’s no big deal. He was slumping to start and they benched him. He was good there last year, and he was good in instructs before winter ball, so he’s clear of his injury.
That mlbtr post mentioned Doc used his NTC to stop a Texas and minny trade. Anyone know when those happened?
Phil, I got smoked because some posters there don’t like me and they make fun of me. I wanted to respond a couple of times and almost did, then I just decided they weren’t worth it. If internet posters don’t like me, it doesn’t bother me. I’m glad that Montero is healthy and I look forward to following him this year.
By the way, this guy Sally says that professional scouting associations (like B.A.) often evaluate players based on little personal experience having seen these players. Is that true? I just can’t imagine that being the case. If it is, I will be disillusioned, lol.
I’d vote for:
Alomar
Blyleven
Dawson
Larkin
Mcgwire
Mattingly
Edgar Martinez
M, Doc definitely used that NTC against Texas (I never heard anything about Minny). It was near the deadline – I didn’t understand why the Jays even engaged in talks with the Rangers as there was no way Doc would go to Texas.
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Colu.....6-sun.html
Here’s the article about Halladay saying he would approve the Yanks.
Betsy,
BA is a joke and the Yanks don’t give them any special info, so BA and the Yanks have been on cold terms for a long time.
btw, what is your name over at NNYfans?
Mark McGwire…made baseball fun to watch with that home run chase.
Betsy,
Thanks. So I guess it was this season. Interesting that minny tried to get Halladay when they had Pavano already.
Awais- Homer Bush made baseball fun to watch in 1998!!!!
5 time All Star Whitaker had 2,369 hits.”
Whitaker’s case always puzzled me. He compares very favorably with Ryne Sandberg, yet Sandberg is in a Sweet Lou coudn’t get 5%.
Phil and Betsy,
You’re not alone over there and I still enjoy reading your posts.:)
I don’t have a vote.
“I wonder if the Jays will even bother having serious talks with teams not on Doc’s list. I mean, what’s the point of doing that? They did that with the Rangers last year…..waste of time.”
Point of doing it was the Rangers have the best pitching prospects. Made sense for Toronto and Texas to discuss it over the summer. Obviously doesn’t anymore.
-Mlbtraderumors,Halladay would approve deal to Yankees.
-Bob Elliot of the Torontosun.com Halladay would waive NTC to pitch for the Yankees.
-Also,bases.nbcsports.com: Halladay ready to don pinstripes.
Make it stop!!
“How did Edgar Martineznot win the AL MVP in 1995 when he hit .356? Mo Vaughn?”
Should have been Albert Belle in 1995
craw, thanks for the re-examine on some of my points.
“craw, thanks for the re-examine on some of my points.”
You’re welcome, but their valid points about observing a pitcher once and then not considering the younger pitcher’s further development as he gets to be that older pitcher’s age.
I meant to say “they’re” and not “their”.
“If Halladay wants to pitch here, he needs to tell the Jays that he will *only* pitch for the Yankees”
He could do that, but it could serve to diminish Toronto’s return, at which time they could tell him he’ll pitch only for the Jays. He can control where he goes, but not if he goes.
Check Bert B:
http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/top500p.htm
Halladay extension would probably be 23-25M x 4 years.
Halladay for McAllister, Nunez, any catcher not named Romine or Montero + Brackman.
Open up the vault Hal!!!!
Then go get Josh Johnson for Joba, Ajax, any other catcher not named Romine or Montero, and if you have to take Uggla on to sweeten the deal, and spin Uggla off on a separate deal.
Let Pettitte retire.
Rotation:
Sabathia
Halladay
Burnett
Johnson
Hughes
Gaudin
Go get em both Cashman.
Was I dreaming????????
Halladay extension would probably be 23-25M x 4 years.
Halladay for McAllister, Nunez, any catcher not named Romine or Montero + Brackman.
Open up the vault Hal!!!!
Then go get Josh Johnson for Joba, Ajax, any other catcher not named Romine or Montero, and if you have to take Uggla on to sweeten the deal, and spin Uggla off on a separate deal.
Let Pettitte retire.
Rotation:
Sabathia
Halladay
Burnett
Johnson
Hughes
Gaudin
Go get em both Cashman.
Was I dreaming????????
Ok, but also sign Sheets and Harden to incentive laden contracts as back ups
Bert Blyleven-Yes. One of top 3 or 4 curveballs
Andre Dawson-Yes
Mark McGwire-No, until he fesses up
Lee Smith-Yes
Ok, but also sign Sheets and Harden to incentive laden contracts as back ups.
————————————————-
Great idea. We don’t need a DH. We can use CC on the days he doesn’t pitch!!!!!!!
… but I want, Holiday, Ankiel and Granderson on the team too, but give Miranda a chance at dh!
In all honesty, if I have to give up Joba or Hughes I want the right handed version of CC, in Josh Johnson, cost controlled and young.
Halladay would be nice, if prospects on the order of what Philly gave the Indians for Cy Young winner Cliff Lee, were acceptable, since the Steinbrenners will then be well over a payroll of 200M++, still needing to find a LF and DH.
… but I want, Holliday, Ankiel and Granderson on the team too, but give Miranda a chance at dh!
————————————————–
I don’t remember seeing Ankiel or Miranda in my dream, but why not empty Hal and Hanks pockets!!!! LOL
“I don’t remember seeing Ankiel or Miranda in my dream, but why not empty Hal and Hanks pockets!!!! LOL”
You mean we have to PAY them to play for the Yankees?!?!
You mean we have to PAY them to play for the Yankees?!?!
———————————————-
You might not have to, because what they would make in their share of WS money plus lucrative endorsements, living in NY, might do the trick?!?!
Perhaps a signing bonus would be nice!!
Betsy = Rocketbooster
I would love to have Doc here, but I’m willing to concede that:
A. This could be noise designed to stoke the hot stove
B. The Yankees might not be willing to part with the necessary prospects (seriously don’t think that Hughes or Jesus need to be included, though)
or:
C. The Yankees might not be willing to give Doc a long extension
Doc Halladay = Another fun season
m-
Have to agree with you on Halladay, but if we are going over budget, with him one year from FA, the prospects should be no greater than what was given the Indians for 1&1/2 years of Cliff Lee, who as a lefty would have been a valuable asset for NY.
Mcgriff has 493 career home runs. 7 more and he’s a shoe in.
Mcgriff has 493 career home runs. 7 more and he’s a shoe in.
—————————————————-
Yes-We could sign him as a player/coach, and much like he did for the Braves, in literally playing his 1st game with them and lighting a “fire” in the booth, it could be an easy path for him, plus wasn’t he a lefty-perfect for YS!!!
I’m glad McGriff didn’t get those 7 home runs because he’s no hall of famer.
YT,
The better prospects will come if a 72-hour negotiation window is opened. Only 2 teams could afford to do that: NYY and Red Sox. Red Sox have a lot of needs, and not enough chips to fill them all via trade, though. Angels are a long shot for an extension, but I don’t know that they do business that way and they weren’t willing to offer their own ace a worthy extension.
cont.
So if it’s a straight up trade, it opens the door to 28 other clubs. I doubt then, that Doc would be on either AL East powerhouse.
m-
Probably would not approve an extension with the Angels who train out west. Supposedly he wants to be closer to home in Florida during spring training.
Biggest question will be the prospects and the length of a 23-25M/year extension!
McGriff had a lot of homers and a good OBP. He was better than some HoF 1B’s.
m-
If you’re talking about a straight trade for Doc, without an extension it still takes a team willing to give up prospects and pay him his, what 15.5M 2010 salary.
The trading partners for a 33 yo [next year] pitcher is still somewhat limited, especially with his NT clause!
Phil-
McGriff a 9th round draft choice of the Yankees in 1981.
December 5, 1990: Traded by the Toronto Blue Jays with Tony Fernandez to the San Diego Padres for Roberto Alomar and Joe Carter.
July 18, 1993: Traded by the San Diego Padres to the Atlanta Braves for Vince Moore (minors), Donnie Elliott and Melvin Nieves.
Chad, did you look at numbers when deciding this or was this just off the top of your head?
In what way can you justify a vote for Dawson over Raines, who had better career numbers in nearly every category?
Phil, I’m Rocketbooster……hmm, it sounds weird to say it. I picked the name when Clemens joined the team. I thought it was cute play on words – Rocketbooster meaning as a fan/booster of Rocket and rocketbooster as an aeronautical term.
Craw, thanks! I really just have problems with a couple of posters who like to pick on me. I think nothing of them, so they don’t bother me. I love your posts as well, though I had no clue who you were. You knew who I was and I thought you were someone else on NYYFans.
I just got through watching the WS DVD – it’s just fantastic. I still remember what an empty feeling it was to go home after the last home game in 2008, knowing that the season was over, done, finito. They showed quite a bit of the walk-off pies, the Alex HR in Baltimore and just overall did a very good job of setting the scene. The highlights are fantastic and there were some neat shots that I hadn’t seen before. I am still very moved at the end of Alex crying with joy……..hugging Jeter, especially. It’s nice how they’ve come full circle in a way……Swisher’s mohawk still gets me; he looks like a rooster. I’m sad in a way because some guys will not be back and I wish they could all be back.
JK, do you post on NYYFans and, if so, who are you?
“In what way can you justify a vote for Dawson over Raines, who had better career numbers in nearly every category?”
Amen brother! Raines was a better bat. Better OBP (60+ points better), better OPS, OPS+ and more runs created over the course of his career in roughly the same number of plate appearances as Dawson.
Only fair to point out that Dawson had a pretty sizeable edge defensively though.
HOF: None of the Above
I just figure Doc may want to sit tight and go FA next year. If the Jays work something out with, say, the Angels….. he could refuse to sign an extension (so he could play for his team of choice next year) – in which case the trade would be altered (no way Angels are paying an arm and a leg for a year rental. In that case, the Jays might just as well keep him and take the picks.
Great post Chad, I definitely agree with you on McGwire from your comments and I think electing him may be a lesser publicity nightmare than electing Alomar. The other thing against Alomar is I don’t think he was ever the best hitter in any lineup he was in nor was he a “feared” hitter. I hear how McGwire had the “lull” mid-career (had injuries, played in a horrible hitters park) but if you were a pitcher who would you pitch around? Alomar compiled some nice numbers in some really nice lineups (not the Mets unfortunately for them) but McGwire WAS the lineup.
The guy I think gets overlooked too frequently was Jack Morris. He was simple the best pitcher in the 80s (who was better for the whole decade? Fernando, Gooden, Mike Scott, Sutcliffe, John Tudor, Saberhagen, Mike Witt(Clemens toward the end, given him credit for enduring – although he may have borrow some pills from his wife) those were the “aces” during Morris’s career and none of them could string together more than 5 good years. Morris was the ace of two World Series teams years apart. BB deserves some recognition too and had nastier stuff than Morris, but nasty stuff doesn’t always translate (Nolan Ryan vs. Greg Maddux, who was really better?)
I think what may happen is that no one will get elected. Electing only Alomar would be a nightmare (the AIDS story would get a lot more legs as it was mostly overlooked). Electing no one would be a slightly lesser nightmare (of course, maybe the Veterans will break down and vote someone in, if not we will be up there celebrating an umpire, a former owner and a broadcaster – what a horrible dent in the CNY economy!)
Thoughts?
Oh and Mark Mcgwire?
He doesn’t even deserve to be in baseball right now. I’d give Pete Rose the nod over that bum.
Under Oath, he didn’t want to talk about the past. Under Oath, he said he would be a national spokesman against steroids.
He did nothing but hide for the past 4 years.
“HOF: None of the Above”
No Alomar, eh? Can’t see him being kept out myself.
Mark McGwire? Really?
What exactly dis we learn about the steroid era makes you think he deserves to be a HOFer?
I think even Barry Bonds had a Hall worthy career before he took steroids.
Who knows how long McGwire took steroids for?
Raines should have been in a long time ago.
Check the facts on what McGwire actually did vs. what Alomar legally did. McGwire admitted to something sold over-the-counter at GNC and Alomar had unprotected sex with someone when he knew he had full blown AIDS. McGwire did not lie in front of congress he just refused to comment. He didn’t forget how to speak English like Sammy Sosa. Rafael Palmeiro is the one who said he did not use sterroids, then was given a suspension for PEDs.
I’m not defending McGwire that he may have used illegal sterroids (I’ll admit, he probably did, I don’t even care either way other than he was probably on the juice when he hit that home run off Rivera opening day 1997 – STILL pisses me off), but until the 100+ names (from AFTER McGwire’s playing days; he was never tested) we are going to have to put an asterisk on this whole era (very unfortunate).
The more I hear of the Tiger Woods accident story, the more I think Jeter is the only athlete who could get a bigger benefit of the doubt with the same set of facts.
“The more I hear of the Tiger Woods accident story, the more I think Jeter is the only athlete who could get a bigger benefit of the doubt with the same set of facts”
I think it might be a tie.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/r.....JXGPwQIeaN the Post’s sensationalized version of the suit being dropped but unfortunately more could come out about this if he’s the only one up there on the podium next summer
Andro, which McGwire was caught with was what roiders used between cycles of steroids to calm the side effects. It’s not the only thing any of them were using. It’s used between cycles.
Anyone who has not gotten in trouble before should get the benefit of the doubt in an incident in which no one else got hurt.
Betsy,
I read NYYFans but don’t post. I remember you from when you use to post on PP. I’m UniqueNYC
can you imagine the look on Gammons’ face if we land Doc!
Im kind of tired of hearing Lee Smith coming up in HoF talks. Yeah he had a ton of saves but did any of them matter? Where it really counts, the post season, he is 0-2 in 4 appearances with only 1 save. He allowed 5 runs in 5.1 post season innings.
The same deal is going to come up with Trever Hoffman. Again, a ton of saves, but none of them mattered. He fared better than Smith in the post season but he doesnt have any rings and his only world series appearance was against the Yankees and we all remember how that went.
So when it comes up I dont think Hoffman is a HoFer either.
I’m pretty sure PED’s didn’t help Bonds win 7 Gold Gloves and steal over 500 bases.
McGwire was a slugger pure and simple. With a career .263 average.
JK, no way, lol……..I still pop in on PP from time to time. I always loved your posts, by the way. Craw knew it was me because I post the same things here that I do on NYYfans (saves lots of time). Is that how you knew it was me?
via MLB Trade Rumors:
Amongst other things, Bowden pushes the Yankees to beat Boston to the punch and deal Joba Chamberlain, Brett Gardner, and Ian Kennedy to the Blue Jays for Roy Halladay.
Zero:
Why should a player be punished for being on an inferior team? Tell you this much. If Mo is on the Padres in 1998 and Hoffman is on the Yankees, Hoffman has a ring. Plenty of guys who spent large chunks of their career on bad teams are in the HOF because they were great players. I agree with you on Smith because to me he falls beneath the Fingers, Gossage, Sutter, Eckersley class of closer. Hoffman? He’s a mortal lock and should be.
How is Jack Morris not in the HOF?? He was an absolute ace and the premier pitcher of his generation who played on a lot of crappy teams. If he had played in NY he’d be in already.
McGwire used to take his walks and had an outstanding career OBP of .394. He didn’t just hit homers.
I don’t know enough to rate these HOF candidates. But I do think that mcgwire is a big coward. Hiding out in his gated community since the senate hearings? Chicken sh**.
Betsy,
I’d bet that Doc wants out. They’ve gone too far down the road to turn back. Even if it’s for a year, he’ll want to go. In fact, he may prefer a one and done with another team. He’ll be the biggest pitching FA next winter.
RE: Woods. The last story I read as ESPN was bizarre. Elin heard the crash, grabbed a golf club, and smashed in the back window to get him out. When the cops got there she was hovering over him on the street and he was in and out of consciousness. My guess is that Selena Roberts was somehow involved…
“If he had played in NY he’d be in already.”
But for the collusion in the ’80s, Jack Morris would have been a Yankee.
“How is Jack Morris not in the HOF?? He was an absolute ace and the premier pitcher of his generation who played on a lot of crappy teams”
Premier pitcher of his generation? Not sure there was ever a day in his career when he was his league’s best pitcher. This is especially true the 2nd half of the 80′s when guys like Viola, Clemens, Saberhagen and Steib were playing. Fine pitcher. Nice postseason resume. But he’s a borderline guy to me.
yte
survey
A great survey site to make some extra cash on the side with… check it out at Low cash out points means you get paid super fast..
or also palm research is nice at
http://www.palmresearch.com/index.pl?ref=1292324
With the first one, i’ve made $20 this past week, just doing the surveys they email me or i check on the website, palm research i just started with. Great incentives. ALL HAVE PAYPAL! No more waiting 3 months for checks either.
the other is… being blocked out, weird anyway it’s
dailysurveypanel.com /?r=will759227
copy and paste it.
M, I agree…..and if he can’t go to the Yankees or some other East Coast team, he’ll probably refuse to sign an extension. He may be fine with CA for a year, but for the rest of his career? I’m not sure……
he wants to be a Yankee and I think he will be.
Albert Belle not making the HOF is one of the biggest travesties in modern baseball.
Belle was infinitely better than Jim Rice was.
Belle was a lot more “feared” as well when he was playing lol.
For his career his OPS+ is 51st on the all time list.
Richie Allen should be in, too. Charlie Keller, too.
Joba, Ian & Gardner for Doc Halladay is actually a good trade for both clubs…..Toronto isn’t going to get a better deal anywhere else….All 3 player will be starters next season for the Jays……I still have reservations about cutting ties with Chamberlain, however maybe the organization feels he’s never to commit himself 100 %……Ian Kennedy will be a 14-15 game winner annually……….Young Master Hughes is not an option to be moved…He’s a star just in wait of shinning
I would do that Halladay deal in a second.
Buddy, Do you think it’s enough, providing Roy signs an extenstion ????
I’m not giving up Joba.
Okay, so it’s just as we all suspected.
Elin confronted Tiger about the Tiger affair reports. She scratched his face up. He went to the SUV to leave, and she came out with a golf club and smashed in his window.
I really hope Tiger did not cheat on his wife. I do not think he did, but you never know.
via TMZ
Not that I believe TMZ, but I really don’t care what Tiger does in his private life. If, however, his wife committed a crime, she should be prosecuted.
Though TMZ is just a gossip site, they are generally not wrong.
I don’t know how they do it, but they usually seem to get accurate information.
Pat M.
I would be surprised if the Blue Jays take that deal, but a window to get him signed to an extension is a must.
The trade value of Joba and IPK will never be lower. It makes < 0 sense to move them now.
I didn’t do a ton of research, but I certainly looked at numbers. I disagree that Raines has better career numbers in every category, and I certainly think Dawson was a better defensive player. I think they’re pretty close to one another, both borderline. I’d put Dawson in ahead of Raines.
As for McGriff, I did shortchange him a bit. He has great career numbers, but I still don’t see him as a Hall of Famer.
Except if McGriff had 7 more HR, he would skate in.
Rich in NJ………..If Toronto would ever consider Chamberlain & Kennedy as the prime pieces to this deal, why would you even care about your percieved notion that their value is low, which I disagree with you on that notion by the way……
Pat M.
It’s not a perceived notion, Pat, it’s an actual fact. Both were hampered this past season by injuries: Joba was regaining arm strength from the shoulder injury and IPK had aneurysm surgery.
Because both have ceilings that are considerably higher than the level they pitched at, their value is lower.
It’s like if you sold a stock last March, you would have made the trade at a 30% discount, maybe more. If you didn’t need the money, it made no sense to do that.
The Yankees don’t have to make a trade. They are the WS champions.
So if they hold on to Joba and IPK until their values appreciate, if they wanted to move them, they could get much more back.
Thinking someone is dominant isn’t enough. There is no way you have watched every single game of Andre Dawson or Bert Blyleven careers career. The statistical record of both players captures every game, not just the ones your eyes saw. And without going crazy with advanced analysis, it is easy to see that dawson was not dominating at all. His career OBP was .323. That is crap when it comes to Hall of Fameers. Heck, even light hitting Dave Concepcion is at .322.
So yeah he may have had 5 tools. But OBP is the most important skill for hitters, and Dawson was mediocre at best at OBP. Definitely not HOF worthy.
And of course, Blyleven’s statistical record overwhelmingly suggests that he should be in the HOF. Just dig around baseballanalysts.com to see why.
Raines should also be a no-brainer for HOF. Once again, just because your gut tells you he isn’t doesn’t mean a darn thing. Your gut didn’t watch every at-bat of this guys career. His numbers are HOF worthy, so that should cancel out whatever your gut is telling you, because it shows that your gut is incorrect.
Trammell should probably be in as well, but it is a closer call than the above guys.
Dawson will get in soon, unfortunately. But this guy was not dominating at all. He simply made too many outs with his given chances.
You obviously never saw Blyleven pitch. Anyone who did knows he is long overdue for election. I have no clue why he isn’t. Fifth in K’s, the same WHIP for a career that Halladay has at 32, more wins than Gibson, Feller and Palmer despite pitching for lousy teams most of his career?! Let’s go, folks.
When will the Yankees visit the white house?
Rich in NJ……Although this arguement is all speculative , if this was indeed the table offer, do you make this deal, being there’s no time to monitor Joba & Ian’s increase in value……Actually this deal is similar in theory ( Joba instead of Phil ) as the proposed deal for Sanatana……The Twins wanted Kennedy included with Hughes, Melachon & Melky……Although Sananta at that time was considered the best pitcher in the game, he had already started to show signs of lost velocity in his fastball…..Cashman said no then, so you wonder if he’s respond the same way to Roy Halladay who is currently tabbed as the games best pitcher only to be 4 years older than what Santana was 2 winters ago……Do you gamble that a smarter and a better conditioned Joba who comes to camp in 2010, makes this trade a bad one by season’s end ???? Tough call for Cashman……Does Joba fulfill his potential, or will he just become another underachievement…..His work ethic is now a major question in the Halls of The Yankee Front Offices…..Hang with him, or part ways with him and get a Doc……One thing is certain in my mind, Phillip Hughes will not be part of that deal…….
I’m not giving up on Joba either. He has more upside than any of the young pitchers.
This can be put in another way re: trade – - who would you rather have pitching against you? Joba or Phil?? Joba may have had a less than spectacular 2009 season,but who did Joe ultimately go with in WS. Joba. Who did not cave in the WS. Joba.
Let’s face it, if the roles had been reversed Joba would still have come out on top. Remember the old argument that any pitcher from the rotation will be a very good reliever.
Again, Phil has been given more opportunities to succeed than Joba has. Count them.
Andre Dawson cost his team too many outs to get into the Hall of Fame. OBP’s in the .320′s shouldn’t be in there. He was way the hell down the list of best players in the NL when the writers gave him the MVP. That was insane. Putting him in the HoF would be even crazier.
I’m not trading Joba for anyone with an NTC who wants to be a Yankee.
In regard to Phil becoming a shining star. He has had X number if years to do so. I truly think he has been intimidated by Joba. Phil was the fair haired boy until Joba came along.
In Joe’s book, Cashman, et al went up to see Joba pitch in a minors game. They were suitable impressed with him and his command of pitches. Cashman called Torre and told him that Joba was better than Hughes.
Could have Phil been intimidated by Joba again in post season and that is why he choked like a big dog.
If Joba is traded, then Phil has all the glory to himself. He may never be that star but he will be good. He has had longer than Joba to prove himself. Joba pitched 2 years in college entering the Yankee system in 2007.
Joba is a year older, Hughes came right from Foothill HS….He simply dominated at every stop including the Bigs until he suffered 2 very unusual injuries which has literally cost him 2 seaons if deveolpment….There’s a reason as to why his ( Young Master Hughes ) name always comes up by opposing GM’S when trade talks are initiated…….His time is just about upon us…..2009 was a year of maturation for him, now the innings will be his only obstacle….It’s his time to busrt on the scene for good and stake his claim as a premier young righhander starting pitcher……Maybe to the Yankee thinking, there;s only room for one right now…….If Jobe does get moved this winter, then who comes in to spell Andy Pettite in 2011.???????
Trading Joba will come back to burn the Yankees like Tex moving Danks & Min moving Garza.
lol what? Its the Yankees man, They could go out and get whoever they need. If Joba becomes Roger Clemens with the Jays, he will be a Yankee again.
As for Hughes….. I ain’t trading a 23 year old pitcher that can get swings and misses in the zone throwing 100% fastballs
Our 2010 New York Yankees
Jeter SS
Damon DH
Tex !B
Arod 3B
Holliday LF
Posada C
Cano 2B
Swisher RF
Granderson CF
CC
DOC
AJ
Andy
Hughes
I think this will work
Too Funny
Wife beat the snap outta Tiger for cheating!
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....crash.html
And even though his wife is drop-dead-gorgeous, Tiger, like a typical guy couldn’t remain loyal.
Alomar is the definition of a Hall of Famer – best player at his position for a decent number of years.
McGwire – no way – he’s just like the Black Sox players that were banned. He’s a cheater and that rules you out for the Hall in my book.
mac daddy
Tiger didn’t cheat on his wife.She rescued him when he crashed outside their home.She used a golf club to break the back glass and retrieve her husband from the crash.The air bag didn’t deploy,and meant he was going less than 33 mp,and no alcohol was involved according to police! Tiger is a nice guy and has a great image.
HOW AN ACCIDENT WOULD DETERMINE FIDELITY
IS A BIG STRETCH,and sounds like someone waiting for some DIRT!!
The case for Lee Smith: 7 time AS, 4 times in top ten CY voting (once as a runner up), 11 30 save seasons, 4 times led league in saves, 478 saves are 3rd all time and one of only 4 with 400+ saves, 8.73 SO/9 innings, 2.57 SO/balls. Gossage had over 100 less saves and their ERA and whip are basically identical (ERA-Goose 3.01, Smith 3.03; whip-Goose 1.23, Smith 1.25) Can’t fault the guy for playing on bad teams. It is fair to say he was dominant during his career.
HOF -
Dave Parker is Jim Rice statistically. Their career numbers are so very similar including awards, etc… in fact, in many regards Parker was the better player.
Now, Parker was not a Hall-of-Famer in spite of his peak years – and neither was Rice even though he is in.
Pat M.
No, the Yankees have leverage. They don’t need to give up Joba or Hughes or Montero. My best offer would be McAllister, AJack, and either Melancon or IPK. That’s a very good deal for Toronto under the circumstances.
My case for Don Mattingly in the HOF.
Baseball is a game that uses numbers from one era to another for comparison purposes. As if Donnie Baseball played in the same era as Lou Gehrig. How much harder would the 2130 game streak have been if Lou played Sunday afternoon in NY and Monday night in LA?
So I start by deciding that Mattingly gets compared to his peers. Sure I can post the Kirby Puckett comparison, but I get the WS waived back in my face, and nobody remembers that the Yanks were the best team in 1994, the strike year. Thank Bud Selig for that.
I m going to quote two posters above to make a point: Donnie played in the beginning of the steriod era. It’s hard to give give him a fair shake when Rafael Palmiero was juicing. Here is the quote:
” # Roberto for Paul November 27th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsman_of_the_Year
How crazy is it that Jeter will be the first Yankee to be named SI SMOY?
What the hell- they didn’t like Mantle’s 56? They didn’t like the Yankees as a team in 1961/98? Roger Maris?
# Rich in NJ November 27th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
They have it to McGwire and Sosa in ‘98. Uh oh…”
They gave it McGwire and Sosa in ’98….hmmm
For 3.5 years, Donnie was arguably the best player in baseball. That type of dominance is rare even in HOF locks.
Was Mantle ever the best player in baseball? Was Gehrig?
Was Aaron? Go ahead and pick between DiMaggio and Williams.
Looking at the Baseball-Reference.com Mattingly averaged 195 hits per 162 game seasons. OK…the acid test, Gehrig, averaged 205. Stan Musial? How about 194? Willie Mays? How about 178? Dave Winfield…a stunning 169. Raffy? 173. He would have kept Donnie out, except roids will keep him out.
DiMaggio? 207
Ted Williams? 188
Ernie Banks: No WS, but 166 hits per season.
Wade Boggs: 200 (AL, DH era, well accepted HOF player)
Kirby Puckett. Give the man his credit, 209!
Derek Jeter: 208
Manny Ramirez: 183
OK, I know OBP supersedes batting average and hits. But I am just making a point that Donnie is GREATLY underappreciated. No questions his glove his HOF caliber, hw could play with anyone. It’s the declining offense that bothers people. My point is that offense was rising in the era, dues to steriods, and that his comparisons suffer becasue of it.
Sure, 1995 wasn’t 1998, when the chemical era was in full bloom. But it hard to decide exactly when it started. Caminetti, in 2002, said he thought half of baseball was using steriods.
Joe Torre would have voted for Todd Zeile
Bert Blyleven’s omission from the Hall of Fame is a travesty. He was the definition of a superstar pitcher on a terrible team without any run support. BaseballAnalysts.com has an entire series of articles dedicated to Bert Blyleven and they analyze his career from every angle. No matter how you look at it, he was just as, and often times more dominant than many of his contemporaries who are all in the Hall.
Here is a piece of one of the articles. On the right sidebar, there are links to the articles in the Bert Blyleven series.
“*** Since 1900, Bert Blyleven ranks 5th in career strikeouts, 8th in shutouts, and 19th in wins. ***
That should do it, don’t ya think?
Blyleven is 5th in career strikeouts. Every pitcher in the top 17 who is eligible for the Hall of Fame has already been enshrined in Cooperstown except Blyleven. The only four pitchers who have struck out more batters than Bert are Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, and Steve Carlton. The nine pitchers immediately behind Blyleven are Tom Seaver, Don Sutton, Gaylord Perry, Walter Johnson, Greg Maddux, Phil Niekro, Fergie Jenkins, Bob Gibson, and Pedro Martinez. That’s keeping pretty good company, no?
Blyleven is 9th in career shutouts overall and 8th since 1900. The only pitchers with more white washes are Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander, Christy Mathewson, Cy Young, Eddie Plank, Warren Spahn, Nolan Ryan, and Tom Seaver. Hall of Famers all. In fact, one could make the case that these eight pitchers are inner circle Hall of Famers. The 13 pitchers immediately behind Blyleven are Don Sutton, Pud Galvin, Ed Walsh, Bob Gibson, Mordecai Brown, Steve Carlton, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Juan Marichal, Rube Waddell, Vic Willis, Don Drysdale, and Fergie Jenkins. Once again, each and every one of these pitchers is a member of the Hall of Fame. In fact, every pitcher who has 50 or more shutouts is in the HOF except Blyleven. And he has SIXTY!
Blyleven is 27th in career wins and 19th since 1900. Every pitcher above Blyleven who is eligible for the Hall of Fame has been inducted into Cooperstown except Bobby Mathews, a 19th-century hurler with 297 wins, and Tommy John, who accumulated one more victory than Bert. Immediately behind Blyleven are Hall of Famers such as Robin Roberts, Fergie Jenkins, Red Ruffing, Burleigh Grimes, Jim Palmer, Bob Feller, and Eppa Rixey. There are dozens of others behind this group who are also in the HOF, including such notables as Carl Hubbell, Bob Gibson, and Sandy Koufax, as well as Catfish Hunter, a Blyleven contemporary who won 63 fewer games and trailed in shutouts by 18 and strikeouts by 1,689. Blyleven didn’t just trounce Hunter in counting stats but he also trumped him in arguably the most important rate stat for pitchers. Hunter’s adjusted ERA (ERA+) was 104 (or 4% better than the league average). By comparison, Blyleven’s ERA+ was 118 (or 18% better than the league average).”
http://baseballanalysts.com/ar.....dditio.php
In – Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin and Trammell
on the fence – Morris
Just a comment about Alomar. He spit in an umpires face. He was and remains-in my eyes- a classless and selfish individual who should have to wait many years before induction.
You overrate Andre Dawson due to generational bias — he played during your formative years. There are tons of players in every era who had similarly good, but not great, careers, who are overrated by those who were coming of age during their careers.
Unfortunately, some of them end up voted in by the veterans committee.
But Andre Dawson is not even close to Hall of Fame calibre.
John — notice how your case for Mattingly uses only rate stats, not compiled stats. Simply put, although my favorite player in the history of the game, he did not do it for long enough for the HOF. And despite a 3.5 year run, did not have anything close to Koufax/Kiner dominance.
Bert blyleven not dominant! So what! The man had 3700 strikeouts in his career. Threw 242 complete games. A career 3.31 ERA, which would have been lower if it hadden been for his last two years. He was very consistent and put up HOF numbers. He also performed great in the postseason, had a 8-1 2.49 ERA. His biggest knock is his losses, but all things considered he should be in.
This is why i wish Mussina stayed two years. With this lineup he would have easily gotten 300 and would be a first ballot HOF. Mussina will go through this same thing. And he deserves the HOF more than Blyleven.
Dave L.
Yes, I used rate stats. That is exactly my point. In his era, lots of players were able to extend their careers by using steriods. “Stat compilers” was a phrase I saw used for Palmiero and Winfield. Be pretty good, and play 18 years, and your totals add up. Clearly Palmiero had the compiled stats….but this usage knocks him out of the running. But you have to wonder how many players in the post 1990 era did extend their careers…and build up stats for a “long run” case. I am making an “intermediate run case.”
Several times I sat in seats right off the batting box. Mattingly showed no signs of steriod use.
I hae no beef against Dave Winfield, btw, but here is a 162 game comparision:
Mattingly 14 seasons: BA .307 OBP: .358 RBI: 100 Career Hits:2153, Golden Gloves 9. Hits per 162: 195
Winfield 22 seasons: BA .283 OBP: .353 RBI: 100 Career Hits: 3110. Golden Gloves: 7. Hits per 162: 169.
Since the standard for the Hall is 10 seasons. So exactly how is Winfield’s 22 year career demonstrably better than Mattingly’s 14 year career?
Alomar, Dawson, Blyleven, Raines, and Smith are all no-brainers.