Waiting for the big picture
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 02, 2009 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
The Atlanta Braves signed Billy Wagner today, and in the process they gave the Boston Red Sox a first-round draft pick and a supplemental draft pick between the first and second rounds. All that for a guy who pitched fewer than 14 innings for Boston.
It’s easy to point to this move and claim it’s proof of a broken system — and maybe it is — but back in August, when the Red Sox traded two spare parts for Wagner, the fact that the Red Sox had the right to offer Wagner arbitration but not pick up his option was reported. It was a known and accepted part of the trade. When Wagner became a Type-A free agent, it became perhaps the most important part of the deal. Love or hate the Red Sox, it now seems to be a heckuva move for Boston.
The balance of power hasn’t shifted. The baseball world hasn’t flipped upside down. Theo Epstein made a nice move, that’s all. The thing to take from it is that there’s always a bigger picture. Trading for Wagner was a short-term move in August. It’s become a long-term move in December.
As much as fans and media would love to see the Yankees get the offseason wheeling and dealing started, the truth is that patience remains a virtue. Brian Cashman is going to meet with his owners. He’s going to gather his scouts. He’s going to talk to his manager. He’s going to set a game plan.
Then he’s going to act.
Quick, small-picture moves destroy good baseball teams. Cashman is a big picture kind of guy. That’s a good thing for the Yankees.
Really it boils down to the Red Sox paid 3.5 million to buy a #1 draft pick. Smart move but please let us not hear from the living skeleton crypt keeper looking Red Sox owner anymore about buying anything.
Great analysis, Chad. Patience and faith in Cash is the way to look at the big picture.
Like the Wicked Witch said in the Wizard of Oz, ” All in due time …”
Well said. I’m still celebrating #27. I’ll start thinking about it when I have something to think about.
He already met with his guys and came up with ideas, they just have to run it by the Steinbrenners tomorrow and Friday.
So, Theo is batting .500 with trading for closers late in the season. We’ll always have the Gagne affair to laugh about.
Have a feeling the Mets did this just to screw us.
Wagner said that he wants to be a closer and would not be a SU man past this year. It was a lock that he’d decline, yet the Mets decide they would rather forfeit free 1sr round picks in favor of an AAAA player. Two 1st round picks available to stock a barren system and they passed.
??
why is this not working
How do we know that Casey Kelly isin’t Greg Maddux?
You don’t have to throw 100 MPH to be successful….
Jimmy
Regardless of whether he is or not, he has not surpassed A ball, and he has yet to even pick a position. He is made out to be the 2nd coming of Christ. When in actuality, he will probably be the 2nd coming of Cesar Crespo.
The Yankees aren’t going to set the market this year. Waiting for the market to come to them takes more time.
“Have a feeling the Mets did this just to screw us.”
You may recall that Minaya once traded Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon. He’s just a really, really, really bad GM.
The whole point of the trade was the money still owed to Wagner. You should at least mention that in your analysis of the trade. For the money they paid Wagner for his 14 innings they could of added signed Mark Teixeira for the $2 million more per year it would of taken to keep him away from the Yankees.
Greg Maddux was a position player?!
chad
very nicely put
nice writing
I would much rather us save our chips for next off-season. We’re already a contender, as is, for next season. I don’t want us giving up anything for Halladay., when we can just sign one of the Studd FA’s next year.
speaking of minaya, how unbelievable is is that that guys still has his job? he must have compromising pictures of the wilpons.
but then again, wilpon was a ‘good friend’ of madoff, so that certainly brings his judgement into question…
m
You do know that Kelly is a switch pitcher and a shortstop, and can play both positions at the same time, right?
But seriously, he is a “RHP”
Ham,
No one thinks Henry’s the devil incarnate. He’s just a well-dressed buffoon. A petty, green-eyed *rick.
Kelly had a .607 OPS as a SS this year.
The only reason he still plays it is because the Sox promised him they would give him an opportunity to do so. Clearly, he isin’t going to continue there.
So now he is Ian Kennedy, yet he is portrayed like Tim Lincecum.
boogie down, good call, i love halladay, but i dont want to see them give up the farm for him. this team is getting pretty old and going back to the days of sending all our young talent out for aging vets who look great at the time has not proven to be all that great a plan.
i say let the sock give up 3 or 4 primo prospects, plus pay halladay $20M+ per year on a 5 year deal and i think the yankees end up much better in the long run.
cashman is smart & will not get burned
no way he trades joba,ajax & montero for doc
i also think cash is not so high on joba & would rather trade him over hughes
yankees & jays are talking & if cash can do a deal that makes sense he will.if not he will pass
we assume it will take joba,ajax & montero to get it done when it might take kennedy,mcallister,romine or joba,romine & kennedy/mcallister
“The whole point of the trade was the money still owed to Wagner.?
Except it has now been reported that the Mets’ accounts with Madoff actually made money, so that earlier report may have been false.
I think it says that the Elias rankings are broken more than the arbitration process. Elias massively overvalues relievers (LaTroy Hawkins is a Type A)
How do we know that Casey Kelly isin’t Greg Maddux?
—
Because Casey Kelly doesn’t have pinpoint control of 4 pitches which all have the most insane movement possible on them?
Maddux could throw you the same type of pitch 100 times and have 100 different pitches based on movement/speed/location
I remember back in 07, Buck and Aikman were doing the Skins/Patriots game on Sunday and Aikman showed up to Fenway in a Sox cap during the Rockies/Sox WS a couple days earlier.
mel:
if you still wondering, Rebecca is dating the Mike Ashmore of Trenton Thunder beatwriter. I found that out from his facebook.
Is nothing sacred, Ed?
a match made in nerd heaven…
Nick, lol I got no idea. beats me.
Yes, the Sox paid $3M for a few innings from a reliever they had no need for.
it’s great for them that it turned into draft picks, but it’s really not THAT big of a deal.
that $3M could have just been spent in the lower rounds of the draft on 4-5 signability guys.
it was a good move for them, but it wasn’t like it didn’t cost them ANYTHING. the $3M seems to be forgotten amongst all the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Speaking of Mashmore, he had entry that the Mariners hired Bill Masse as a scout. Masse once said that Melky would win a batting title. I wonder if Seattle might have some interest in him now (although, obviously not as a CF).
without the aging vets we dont win the ws
a lot of them just happen to be our own
the smart thing we did this time is only sign the right fa in their prime & kept most of our prospects instead of trading our prospects for the wrong players past their primes
it takes a combination of trades,fa & kids to get it done
if you only sign,sign,sign the payroll is through the roof & you have to have fill ins in case of injuries
velli is a perfect example
right now we are sitting at about 166-170 million in payroll
if we trade for halladay & extend him we are around 190 million before pettitte wich takes us to 200 million with lf,dh,cf concerns
doesnt make sense but i think we need another pitcher even if pettitte is signed
i just don’t think cash & girrardi are content with cc,burnett & pettitte & going with joba & hughes as our 4th & 5th wich i agree with
i know some will say we did it with the 3 already but imo that is not good enough
we have to always try to get better
Mike Ashmore
–
Speaking of Mike Ashmore, he is a Red Sox fan. Which makes Rebecca’s relationship with him dubious in the least, traitorous at the most!
What a revolting development!
Why can’t compensation picks be determined by the size of the free agent’s new contract and not some poor statistic?
Mike Ashmore is a Red Sox fan?
Pete Abe 2.0…..
In many MLB drafts, only 3-7 players in the entire 1st rd become impact players. Also, half of those tend to come from the top 10-12 picks.
So if I had to guess, I’d say only 2-3 players of the final 18-20 picks become impact players (all-stars or borderline all-stars) in the majors.
1st rd picks are great… but far from a sure thing. The Red Sox were lucky to get the picks but $3M plus the money they’ll pay the picks, for players who have the odds stacked against them, isn’t some coup.
I don’t think they are comfortable with the rotation as is either. Having Joba and Hughes as the 4th and 5th starter is a recipe for an overworked bullpen. AJ gets knocked out a lot of games early as well and Pettite is another year older. As is they only have one guy who consistently goes deep into games (CC).. which is why Halladay would be so nice. The pen could rest 2 out of 5 games…
why on earth would anyone care that some internet poster dates a minor league beat reporter?
Ed,
You rumormonger!
Mike Ashmore is a Red Sox fan?
Pete Abe 2.0…..
–
More like Pete Abe .5 because he is a normally weighted individual.
His red sox fandom is confirmed from his website, which was interesting to browse as he does a lot of work outside of the trenton thunder.
Ed,
lol. Doreen confirmed it through a secret girl code already.
And isn’t that cute about the Facebook? I accused Rebecca about being an idealist when it came to marriage. It remains to be seen if I am correct.
We need a wager of some sort. Nick?
Confining the utility of 1st round picks to whether or not they are impact players is a bit narrow. For example, if they drafted a pitcher that turned out to be a #3 starter that gave them 3 WAR for 5 years, that player’s production would be well worth the $3 million.
huh, get over yourself many of us have become friends with rebecca and shes the one who’s been dropping hints about it in the first place, also many on here are regular readers of mike ashmore’s column.
im so sorry we’ve taken you away from discussing the halladay non-trade which is a few weeks away from (not) happening.
I’m dating Kim Jones.
huh,
Because we love her and totally care if she’s happy. Sounds like she is. Even if you aren’t.
raymagnetic , LOL. im sorry? i did confirmed with rebecca though…
also..since when did this blog turned into a gossip blog? IT’S NONE OF OUR BUSINESS!!!
Re Rebecca:
Good for her.
You have shamed us all.
hey, remember the thunder was a red sox affiliate for the first 5 years or so that mike was covering them and he saw many of the current red socks come up through the system.
he also saw carl pavano set the EL record for wins, but suprisingly that didnt make him a diehard yankees fan…
Rich,
it’s the 3M+bonuseses for the 1 and sandwich pick, right?
I agree with Blake and Bru. I too believe that Joe and Cashman aren’t 100 percent confident with Joba and Hughes as our 4th and 5th starter
blake
the problem is if we sign pettitte & trade for doc we are at about 195 million with dh & lf concerns
Phil,
I think that’s right. But a #3 starter could be worth $12m per year to the RS.
Wager on the fruits of treachery???
Hmmm, what kind of wager?
Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench)
December 2nd, 2009 at 9:41 pm
I’m dating Kim Jones.
now I’m pretend upset.
Kim Jones was my pretend girl friend.
I’m guessing Rebecca will make Mike (if they still together then) to arrange a meeting with Jesus Montero during spring training or when minor league season starts. that’s one of the advantages of dating a beatwriter.
not only do you push the payroll up further by signing halladay, you also lose the chance to keep the payroll down by using the cheap(er) talent (joba or hughes, ajax, montero, whoever) that you sent away and have to pay for established and older talent to fill the holes they would be filling.
in the past i could have seen the yankees go all-in if only to keep the socks at bay, but now they are chasing us again and we dont have to make such expensive and risky moves.
jmo…
“For example, if they drafted a pitcher that turned out to be a #3 starter that gave them 3 WAR for 5 years, that player’s production would be well worth the $3 million.”
———-
there are maybe 1-2 #3 starter quality pitchers taken outside the top 10-12 picks of the 1st rd each year, tops.
the odds a #14-30 pick, in my unqualified estimated turns out to be an above average player or better than a #5 starter is probably 10%.
*estimation
Kim Jones is just following the path of Tiger Woods, unfortunately…
“there are maybe 1-2 #3 starter quality pitchers taken outside the top 10-12 picks of the 1st rd each year, tops.
the odds a #14-30 pick, in my unqualified estimation turns out to be an above average player or better than a #5 starter is probably 10%.”
I have no idea what the percentage is, but I know that the higher the pick, the higher the hit rate.
By accumulating draft picks, a team’s odds of increasing their hit rate goes up. Adding two additional picks in the top 45 at the price the RS paid is a very good deal for any big revenue team.
Ham Fighters
December 2nd, 2009 at 9:48 pm
not only do you push the payroll up further by signing halladay, you also lose the chance to keep the payroll down by using the cheap(er) talent (joba or hughes, ajax, montero, whoever) that you sent away and have to pay for established and older talent to fill the holes they would be filling.
in the past i could have seen the yankees go all-in if only to keep the socks at bay, but now they are chasing us again and we dont have to make such expensive and risky moves.
jmo…
====
Agree
we are sitting at about 170 million with raises
would it be crazy to try to trade cano,joba for a kf dropping payroll to about 163 million(joba & cano are about 11 million & kf was under 4 million) then sign holliday & pettitte for about 26 million total having payroll at around 189 million or sign damon & matsui for 16 million total & be sitting at about 179 million both leaving us options if we wan’t to sign a 2nd baseman/dh ??
with that rotation we can play pena at 2nd base & dh miranda if we wen’t with the holliday instead of damon & matsui
Now I have to take his negative evaluation of Eduardo Nunez (that Chad posted) a couple of days ago with a grain of salt… I didn’t know a Red Sox fan was making that evaluation… maybe he wants us to cut him so his Red Sox pick him up…
Speaking of tragic betrayals that ended badly, I visited Gettysburg over the holiday. I snapped a pic of my Yankee cap on a Confederate cannon. I’ll try to remember to post it sometime.
ok i give up, what’s a kf?
Nick in SF
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Speaking of tragic betrayals that ended badly, I visited Gettysburg over the holiday. I snapped a pic of my Yankee cap on a Confederate cannon. I’ll try to remember to post it sometime.
I went there this summer – an eye opener!
lots of cannons and monuments!
There’s a big difference between trading Joba, Hughes, Montero and trading anyone else.
Rich,
yup.
Why would Rebecca be going out with a scumbag Bostonian
Mike “wishes big Papi could” bAshmore.
Seriously though, It’s just amazing how Yankees beat writers that are hired are Red Sox fans. Imagine the rumors that a Yankees fan beat writer could have floated year in and year out like Nick Cafardo, Bob Ryan, Tony Massor., Peter Gammons, and the newest addition, Pete Abe.
Once Trenton moved from Boston’s organization to New York’s, Mike Ashmore should have been fired for being a Red Sox fan. (Whether he is unbiased or not, I do not know and that’s not the issue)
Uncle Ellsworth, did you notice that the rebel states put up much bigger and ostentatious (sp?) monuments to their dead? Of curse there were far more of them…
My nephews particularly enjoyed climbing around the rocks in the Devil’s Den.
Does Mike Ashmore take shots at A-Rod and Girardi, mention empty seats and ticket prices, praise Giambi, and talk about Springsteen?
Rich in NJ
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:04 pm
There’s a big difference between trading Joba, Hughes, Montero and trading anyone else.
====
I would put Banuelos in that group without a second thought.
king felix of the mariners
they prob never trade him but for cano & joba who knows
170 million minus 11 for cano & joba is 159 million
add 4 million for kf & we are at 163 million with the sickest rotation on the planet & a 24 yr old ace
sign pettitte,holliday for 24- 26 million & we are at 187-189 million
or pettitte,damon,matsui for 9 million each & be about the same
Nobody could commandeer a fan base’s views about certain players/managers with negative thoughts and concepts quite like Pete Abe.
I bet every time he was writing one of his hate-filled tirades toward Alex or Joe G., he had another Big Mac stuffed down his throat. And while the Yankees were winning Number 27, he probably held a Mickey D’s hostage, not for money, but for food.
Uncle Ellsworth, did you notice that the rebel states put up much bigger and ostentatious (sp?) monuments to their dead? Of curse there were far more of them…
My nephews particularly enjoyed climbing around the rocks in the Devil’s Den.
I did.
Did you like the cyclotron? I would have liked it for if permitted to stay more than 45 seconds.
I could have spent a lot more time touring the Battlefield – it just amazing
CR9,
The readers can usually tell when a journalist is biased and they no longer read his stuff if he comes across as impartial. So he’ll usually sabotage himself.
The problem with Pete Abe is that he only became biased after the blog had already been established. He had his fanbase here and knew a few shots at A-Rod wouldn’t drive away his 100s of posters. He went to the Globe and is showing his true colors now. If Pete acted then (05 when he took over the blog) like he does now, this blog would be empty.
RD 87
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Now I have to take his negative evaluation of Eduardo Nunez (that Chad posted) a couple of days ago with a grain of salt… I didn’t know a Red Sox fan was making that evaluation… maybe he wants us to cut him so his Red Sox pick him up…
=======
The dude can hit – has good power potential. DId you see him in ST? He has terrific range – which the writer completely ignored, and a killer arm. I’m not terribly concerned about off-balance throws and a bit too much zeal, at this stage.
And whenever writers venture into the murky “work ethic” waters regarding a young player, buyer beware…ultimate statements about character are highly suspect..
He needs to not overthrow, work on not K-ing, and let the game come to him a little more…but he has some studly virtues…keep the faith, my friend!
If there is any justice in the blog world when CR9 dies he’ll bypass Heaven, Hell and Purgatory and head straight to Boston.
“I would put Banuelos in that group without a second thought.”
Phil, thoughts?
@leokitty I don’t think Melancon did himself any favors in that clubhouse with his “unintentional” erratic pitches.
From Mike Ashmore’s twitter.
Isn’t that dandy? He put unintentional in quotes, as if Mark Melancon meant to hit anybody.
Mark Melancon, from what I read from GB7 in the past was that he had elite control/command. When he came to the majors, he lost that control/command. For whatever reason, he was a walk machine in the MLB in 2009.
Lets see how Theo does,now that he’s lost his Asst Gen Mgr Jed Hoyer,and as of today his Director of amateur scouting,Jason McLeod,both to the Padres.Two big pieces from the front office. http://www.boston.com has the story.
~You know what they say about a sinking ship,follow the rats they are the first to get off!!
Eduardo Nunez:
.322 avg, 9HR, 262B, 19 SB.
Needs to work on his OBP – what young kid doesn’t? Also, sometimes his bad throws are the result of Sanchez disease – kid doesn’t know when to give up on a play.
Otherwise, you’d see less wild throws – because his range is so good, sometimes he’s trying to make a throw you can’t possibly make.
Don’t forget to factor in Wagner’s signature choke job in Game 3 of the ALDS in the final reckoning of this deal.
Boston was probably going to lose the series anyway, but Wagner did his part to help things along, like he has in every post season in which he’s participated.
Via Ken Rosenthal -
Just as the emergence of shortstop Elvis Andrus persuaded the Rangers to move Michael Young to third base, the rapid development of two young shortstops eventually might compel the Yankees to approach Derek Jeter about a change.
The issue could not be more sensitive — Jeter, who turns 35 on June 26, wants to continue playing short, and he will be a free agent at the end of the 2010 season.
Scouts, however, have been buzzing all spring about Ramiro Pena, 23, and Eduardo Nunez, 21, both of whom have received increased exposure with Jeter participating in the World Baseball Classic.
Pena spent last season at Class AA, Nunez at Class A.
“They’re two of the better young kids I’ve seen … two legitimate core players for the future,” one scout says. “They’re not that far from being major-league ready — they have some tools and they know how to play.”
Will they hit?
“Their offense will not keep them from playing — they have at least survivor skills with the bat,” the scout says. “I enjoy watching them. They’re exciting players. They bring a lot of energy.”
As for Jeter, one problem with moving him off short would be finding him a new position. Center field would appear to be his most logical destination, considering that the Yankees are set long-term at first, second and third.
Robin Yount moved from short to the outfield at 29, but Jeter’s mentality is probably more similar to that of Cal Ripken, who did not shift to third base until he was 36.
The Orioles had to sign free agent Mike Bordick to justify the switch to Ripken. Jeter might resist for moving younger players, but his diminished range could weaken his case.
Both times now, when Jeter has been away at the WBC, Pena has taken advantage of the situation – in terms of making an impression. And, it was three years ago when Eduardo Nunez popped up on the Yankees prospect radar. However, then again, neither Pena or Nunez made it on to the Yankees top prospect list in John Sickels’ The Baseball Prospect Book 2009 – whereas SS prospect Carmen Angelini did make the list (albeit with a grade of “C”).
Remember, once upon a time, Domingo Ramos and Damaso Garcia were supposed to be the future of the Yankees, up the middle, too…
.
Also, Eduardo and the entire Thunder team play in a pitchers park that suppresses their offense.
Rich in NJ
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:16 pm
“I would put Banuelos in that group without a second thought.”
Phil, thoughts?
====
He’s 18, tops out at 96 already, & has potentially 3 plus pitches. He’s also a LHP.
Whatever Kenny you Hack!
Uncle Ellsworth, I enjoyed the Cylontron a lot, but I would have been happy if it been completely devoted to Grace Park.
Banuelos would be hard to part with.
What? Eduardo Nunez sucks… Ashmore the Red Sox fan said so. Stop telling me how good he is
Yes… I’m sure the players in the clubhouse are going to be mad that a 23 yr old rookie was nervous and hit a couple of batters.
Looks like we found our new Pete Abe! LOL!
Guys I just checked in with PinstripesPlus to see if there was a anything new on Nunez.
Lo and behold, there’s a long interview with Yanks MiL defensive infield coordinator Jody Reed. Haven’t read it yet, but I’m sure Teale will get him to comment on infielders at all levels in the system.
The thing is worth a subscription, IMO.
Joe from LI, that article on Cash makes me wonder about Donnie………Also, Cash is tougher than he looks. I know he spoke to Joe G. about shutting out his coaches (which he apparently did last year), but to think that Torre had some kind of circle around him? That’s disturbing – the team comes first (or it should) and instead it appears that it became all about Torre.
reed was a red sock, dont believe a word of it…
It was apparent that Torre was off the reservation for his last several years with the team.
The Red Sox are also surely pleased with this turn of events. They weren’t poised to make a strong effort to retain Wagner, and now they’re set to land the 19th pick in the draft, assuming that the Braves fail to sign a higher ranked free agent. Matt Holliday, Jose Valverde, Jason Bay, John Lackey and Marco Scutaro are the only ones who will take precedence for the pick, and it’s highly unlikely Atlanta will land any of them. The Red Sox could now go ahead and ink Scutaro, safe in the knowledge that they’d still have at least one first-rounder.
Blake, AJ pitched over 200 innings this year – he didn’t get knocked out of THAT many games early……
Reed says a lot of Nunez’ errors came early in the season, when it was stone cold. He also says Nunez “is on the verge of figuring this out.” Rather a sweeping observation, but if it means he may be putting it all together – the God-given and the learned – that would be very, very nice indeed.
GB7, if you’re in the building – what’s your take on Jose Pirela? Reed says he may have a future at SS, despite his defensive prowess at 2B. Says he’s working on arm strength.
the above was written by Matthew Pouliot
Betsy – All people change over time. It looks like that was Torre’s downfall, changing and getting away from the style that led to his success in the early years. It’s almost like he stopped trying, and just let things happen. Was too comfortable with “his guys” and wasn’t interested in either trusting new players or learning as the game changed (ex, the use of stat analysis). I don’t think Torre is unique in this, that’s why people sometimes thrive with a change of scenery – they figure out that they HAVE to do something different.
Well, that’s it for me for tonight – Have a good night all. May we wake up to reading stories about how the Yanks acquired Doc Halladay for Kei Igawa.
Nick, I am a Civil War buff and am dying to get to Gettysburg. What did you think?
What’s so huge about Theo’s Director,McLeod,of amateur scouting leaving to go to the Padres.
He landed in 2004,Pedroia ,2005 Ellsbury,Clay Buchhlolz,Jed Lowrie,Michael Bowden,and Craig Hansen in 2005 draft.
Has anyone here seen Carlos Santana live?
If so, how would you compare him to Montero? I’ve only seen the latter.
Please, no Evil Ways jokes…
gfd
Remember when Craig Hansen was the next greatest pitcher in baseball. He was not worth trading for somebody like Buchholz and Kelly are currently not worth trading for Roy.
CR9
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:51 pm
gfd
Remember when Craig Hansen was the next greatest pitcher in baseball. He was not worth trading for somebody like Buchholz and Kelly are currently not worth trading for Roy.
====
I believe Gammons was hyperbolizing about him in 2008?
To wit: “The best setup man in baseball.”
I’m dead serious, BTW.
The Yankees know their farm system better than anyone; if they decide to try and acquire (seriously) Halladay, they know which pieces are worth holding onto and which they are willing to send to a division rival. I trust Cash………
I’m especially serious about chocolate.
If you live in the NY-metro area, and are having a tough time getting through the offseason, may I suggest a visit to Kee’s Chocolates in Midtown or Soho.
I highly recommend the smoked salt, lemon basil, black sesame, earl grey, and yuzu. Sadly, the green tea was pedestrian. Oh, blood orange rocks as well – so does balsamic.
Betsy, The guys who strap it on and the coaching staff always have ( maybe not as much today ) had an us vs. them ( the Suits ) mentality…..That circle of tightness that bonded the coaches and the Manager has been a staple of the game for a long time…..With Torre, Bowa & Mattingly you’re looking at the old school at it’s finest….Zimmer’s departure was planned by Zim himself but he certainly had the last shots at George and the Front Office….With the advent of GM’s being Ivy League types who never stepped on a field in their lives has changes the dynamics in clubhouse and The Front Office relations….GM’s were former players, or lifers who finally became GM’s after spending years making their bones…….What went on behind the scenes with Cashman & Torre was a collision waiting to happen once Cash had full control……Old School / New Wave
Yes, Brian Cashman IS a big picture guy in the sense that the big picture involves signing players for a decade and doling out contracts worth more than Cuba. There’s no micro-management needed, don’t spend the billions of dollars you have on sh*tty, hard to manage players who can’t play defense. That’s the strategy. I’m a yankee fan, but we need to stop pretending that they are a real baseball team in the same sense that the Brewers are a baseball team. Let me know if they get the payroll under $150 million. Then we’ll talk actual strategy.
Winning that World Series sure did suck, huh Anthony?
bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:57 pm
I’m especially serious about chocolate.
*******
Bodhi-
I made a very interesting discovery Monday night. I went to Godiva to buy a gift for someone and if you sign up for their frequent customer card, you get a free piece of chocolate a month!!!!
I was quite glad I went on November 30th
bodhisattva
You had me at Gammons!
Seriously though, I remember him saying those things as well.
Cashman was an outstand player at Catholic University in Washington. Big on base percentage. So not exactly an Ivy Leaguer who’d never been on a field.
Betsy, if you’re a Civil War buff, like Keith Hernandez, Gettysburg is a must-see.
The Visitors Center is great, you see a 20-minute movie that sets the scene and puts it in perspective, then you visit the cyclotron, which is a 360-degree thingy which puts thins in geographic perspective, and then you go out to the actual battlefield.
We only had a little bit of time, so I have to go back someday. But being there at the scene really makes the history of it all come alive. If not for the bravery of a few great men, disaster could have followed.
Anthony
Are you a weasel? We are playing with a $150 million payroll. Essentially, having to overpay free agents and overpay our own guys like Jeter is necessary to playing in NY. I have not tried to quantify this, but we are paying the same players 50 million more than they would get with any other team.
And who gives a **** anyway what we pay. You cannot buy a World Series, and that I can quantify. 1 out of 9 years comes to an 11% clip. Not exactly buying WS.
DH wouldn’t be a concern if Posada was moved to DH full time and catches partime behind Cerevelli.
Cerevelli is capable,young,cheap and liked by all the pitchers.He would solve the aging Posada,bad defensively meme.Posada cold still catch about 2-3 times a week.
“I’m a yankee fan, but we need to stop pretending that they are a real baseball team in the same sense that the Brewers are a baseball team. Let me know if they get the payroll under $150 million. Then we’ll talk actual strategy.”
Bodhi
Been to the one on Thompson Street.
Tried Balsamic, Chili and Pistachio. All were outstanding.
Oh since this blog is all about gossip tonight-
While waiting on a neverending line at Target tonight, I spied a Star magazine with “Stars Best & Worst Beach Bodies”. Guess which Yankee shortstop and his TV star girlfriend were photographed twice while frolicking on the beach in St Barts recently.
And they were voted Best couple beach bodies. I agreed
Atlanta bought Lowe last year. Don’t be surprised to see them go after Lackey or Wolf, who are both rated higher than Wagner. If Atlanta signs any one of the below, Boston will get a 2nd round pick instead, which although is still good, not nearly as good of chance of actually making it to majors.
Matt Holliday 95.960
Jose Valverde 89.874
Jason Bay 89.859
Johnny Damon 85.634
Mike Gonzalez 84.268
John Lackey 83.865
Rafael Soriano 83.667
Marco Scutaro 83.069
Orlando Hudson 82.488
Bengie Molina 81.224
Miguel Tejada 81.143
Randy Wolf 77.778
Billy Wagner 76.377
Phil, I think you get my point…Brian Cashman certainly wasn’t on any ballclub’s radar at any compacity…..He was an over achieving intern……I like Cashman, but as he siezed control and power I’m certain he doesn’t get his wingtips or saddleshoes caked with brick dust…..Catholic University is what a Division V School……My point is the inu’s don’t consider the new wave GM’s as one of them anymore……I’m not saying that this is bad, however it’s certianly a major change in the last 5-6 years….
Only gossip I have is that Tiger Woods cheated on his wife. But I am sure at least 1 of you guys have read that one.
Hi Erica! Long time no “see”!
I’m sorry, Wolf was not offered arbitration. But regardless, if Atlanta signs any of those players offered arbitration… Since they already signed a Type A, they are going to be a lot more willing to sign another Type A, because they don’t lose another 1st round pick…
Christina: Pictures from the Yankees Parade
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Only gossip I have is that Tiger Woods cheated on his wife. But I am sure at least 1 of you guys have read that one.
Hi Erica! Long time no “see”!
*****
Hi Christina!!!!
I haven’t been posting very much lately. Its a combination of problems at work/lack of anything to add to the conversation (not that that ever really stopped me before, but you know).
Erica- This is the first I havent commented in a while myself. School is really wearing me down and has been busy. Plus I have too many jobs. Any good shows on lately? The table for 12 is surely no Jon and Kate + 8
oops, have*
Check that …Uni’s….
Christina: Pictures from the Yankees Parade
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Erica- This is the first I havent commented in a while myself. School is really wearing me down and has been busy. Plus I have too many jobs. Any good shows on lately? The table for 12 is surely no Jon and Kate + 8
******
I really miss Jon & Kate, but thats probably just me. Lately, I am really loving ABC on Wednesday nights, plus Glee. And everything on NBC on Thursdays (plus Greys Anatomy). I still watch way too much TV.
Here’s the SI Sportsman of the Year article…….it’s a truly wonderful piece:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...../index.htm
I think Jeter’s reaction to Jay Witasick epitomizes who he is on the field. I read that just now and my jaw dropped – stunned that any player could be that blase and non-competitive.
My contribution to gossip….
The Yankees have invaded Europe. Johnny is in France and Alex is in England.
Would Swisher be a type A as a reliever too?
Pat M, the new ways aren’t always so bad (not that I’m saying you’re saying that). I am no stat geek myself – I don’t know about WAR, UZR, etc….and I’m perfectly happy. I respect and appreciate the knowledge that former baseball players bring to the game. That said, there is no excuse – not for Torre, not for Bowa, not for Mattingly – to ignore their GM and try and run the team their way. Torre and Cash were friends, but what kind of friend treats their friend with the disrespect that Torre apparently did? I think it takes a lot for Cash to call something “garbage”. I love Mattingly -adore him, really – but I would lose a lot of respect for him if he was part of the staff that Cash was referring to.
Wally Pipp and a few other major leaguers came from the same college team Cash played for. He was a 2B who got on base a lot.
Torre was a failure as a manager until he inherited Buck’s talented Yankee team, and the kids that were coming up. They won, and he thought it was because of him. It wasn’t, but he developed his coterie of reporters and celebrity friends and it all went to his head.
Grady Sizemore must be loving this too. Very few people looking at his mug photo.
I have to get in bed! Good night Yankee people!!!!!!!!!!
Nick…….like Keith Hernandez? Really? LOL
I am most definitely not a spiritual person, but I know that when I step foot onto those fields, I will truly understand what it is like to walk on hallowed grounds. I get that way at Ft. Sumter………The Cyclorama sounds nifty. I need to get there – maybe this spring. Are you on a tour?
Bodh, I’ve heard of Kee’s – I like chocolate, but don’t consider myself passionate about it. It sounds like I need to check out the shop – is it near Penn Station (in mid-town)?
National Lampoon’s Yankees Vacation – Look kids, it’s Johnny Damon……Alex Rodriguez! *Inside joke from NE’s European Vacation, lol
pat
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Bodhi
Been to the one on Thompson Street.
Tried Balsamic, Chili and Pistachio. All were outstanding.
====
pat,
I am THRILLED someone on here understands the gravity of how delectable that chocolate is:
http://www.keeschocolates.com/cho.html
Balsamic was great. Now I simply MUST try the chili and pistachio – may have to take a ride in tomorrow. It won’t take much to convince my GF, who introduced me to Kee’s.
Between Kee’s and the Pastry Nazi – Le Patisserie Claude on 4th – I could become a very, very large man. It’s a good thing I no longer live in the city.
Phil, That Yankee core was put together by Ex-Yankee ballplayers…Gene Michaels & Bob Watson…..I’m not inclined to volley this point back & forth….All I’m saying is that the mentality & culture has changed in this decade and some of the older former ballplayers just didn’t see things the same way that the Micro0Soft GM types view the game…..As a former player you view the coaching staff and your mgr. with great sense of dedication and that feeling is returned to the players……All I’m saying is that it must be hard for former players who’ve been in the game for 40 plus years to be told by some Stat guy who to play…….I can see how things fell apart between Torre and Cashman…And Bowa and Mattingly responded in the only way they new……Not taking sides, it’s just understandable
Bodh, I’ve heard of Kee’s – I like chocolate, but don’t consider myself passionate about it. It sounds like I need to check out the shop – is it near Penn Station (in mid-town)?
===
Betsy,
Kee’s Chocolates SoHo
80 Thompson Street
New York, NY 10012
Monday through Friday, 9am to 7pm
Saturday and Sunday, 11am to 7pm
212 334-3284
Kee’s Chocolates Midtown
452 Fifth Avenue (inside HSBC)
New York, NY 10018
Monday through Friday, 9:30am to 5:30pm
212 525-6099
Torre is a first ballot HOF and has took 2 historic franchises (Yanks and Dodgers) and restored them to glory. Dodgers don’t win a playoff game for 20 years… Torre arrives and takes them to 2 consecutive NLCS’s.
Yanks haven’t done anything for 18 years and Torre shows up and bam… the best era the Yankees have had in decades, 4 titles in 5 years, 14 straight playoff appearances.
Cashman looks real smart spending his boss’ money in a non-salary cap sport, but it is Torre who brings teams together.
I was as disgusted by the monster that George created (i.e., Torre) as anyone, but his calm demeanor probably did contribute to the atmosphere that helped them overcome the 0-2 deficit to Atlanta in the ’96 WS, but as the years went on his ego became unbearable. In actuality, his situation was analogous to that of Chauncey Gardner in “Being There.”
Erica – always OPPC
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:30 pm
I have to get in bed! Good night Yankee people!!!!!!!!!!
=====
Goodnight, Erica!
Unfortunately, Kee’s refuses to deliver chocolates, so one cannot order them or send them as a gift. They are uncompromising about them needing to be eaten fresh.
Bodh, thanks!
Torre’s staff seems to be doing fine out in LA, aren’t they?
Maybe it was Cashman who was being too intrusive on his HOF manager.
When Torre starts teaching Mark Sanchez how to slide, then I’ll be impressed.
Patisserie Claude…wow, that brings back memories. I grew up in the neighborhood amd went there all the time. Nothing was worse than getting there too late in the day and finding him already sold out of Napoleons…often that was my dessert after lunch at The Bagel.
Betsy, no tour, I was just near Baltimore for Thanksgiving as some of my family and I took an afternoon visit. It’s worth a longer trip. Thank goodness we put those rebels down.
bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Reed says a lot of Nunez’ errors came early in the season, when it was stone cold. He also says Nunez “is on the verge of figuring this out.” Rather a sweeping observation, but if it means he may be putting it all together – the God-given and the learned – that would be very, very nice indeed.
GB7, if you’re in the building – what’s your take on Jose Pirela? Reed says he may have a future at SS, despite his defensive prowess at 2B. Says he’s working on arm strength.
————————————————————
Pirela even at age 19 is more advanced defensively than any other middle infielder in the system, but, still has some things to work on….like footwork. He also bounced between short and 2nd base. Offensively, he can hit. He’s fast, but, not a good base runner, yet. Zero power, though. I’d think that 2nd base is his spot. At 5’19″ and 191 pounds, be may be getting a little too stocky for short stop. I like him, though.
Eduardo Nunez is the real thing on offense. He has speed and the power should be sort of Jeter type power. That will come when he puts on some weight. His defensive issues has always been footwork.
By the way….you’ll love Daniel Brewer. Not much power, but a good, young hitter with speed. Plays mainly corner outfielder and well, but, plays all three and first base.
CR9
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:03 pm
bodhisattva
You had me at Gammons!
Seriously though, I remember him saying those things as well.
=====
You have to understand the roots of Gammons’ love. As Hamlet would say “there’s something in this more than natural…” (meaning LESS than natural).
Hey Anthony,
Stop complaining about Yankee payroll. Let me ask you a question: How much does your house cost, or how much is your rent? How much do you think the same size residence cost in Kansas City? Duh, yes, NY is more expensive.
You can do the same with salaries. We get paid more here, because things cost more here. Now I know that they get paid obscenely more, but you get the drift.
Who sold out Napoleon ?
He wasn’t at Gettysburg was he?
Joseph
Are you serious?
Stick and Buck assembled the talent and changed the losing culture that led to the four WS, yet you want to give Torre the credit? Please.
btw, The Yankees made the playoffs the year before Torre showed up, but you want to give Torre the credit for the Dodgers for making the playoffs, and none to Buck for the Yankees finally making the playoffs. That’s ridiculous.
You are also conveniently overlooking the fact that the Yankees had the best record in the AL in 1994 at the time of the lockout.
And if there had been a wild card in 1993, the Yankees would have made the playoffs.
No one deserves less credit than Torre for the Yankees’ turnaround.
Nick, that’s right. If we hadn’t, we’d all be doing the Tomahawk Chop right now.
GB, thanks for the info on those young players….!
So all the reviews about Nunez here are far different from the ones that Mike “Sox fan” Ashmore gave us?
hmm…..
Betsy, if you want to see Gettysburg, I’d suggest starting at Antietam. It will give you a chance to work up to Gettysburg. It’s outside of Sharpsburg, Maryland. From there, go to Manassas, Virginia and them to Gettysburg. Starting at Gettysburg is a bit of a shock to the system. Antietam, though is absolutely marvelous. Beautiful marvelous and tragic.
Bodhi
My sister-in-law is a chocolate snob and always talked about Kee’s so I made a friend take a detour while we were in the city and go with me one day.
Well worth the walk. Only disappointment was I love cinnamon and they didn’t have anything with it.
Pirela even at age 19 is more advanced defensively than any other middle infielder in the system, but, still has some things to work on….like footwork. He also bounced between short and 2nd base. Offensively, he can hit. He’s fast, but, not a good base runner, yet. Zero power, though. I’d think that 2nd base is his spot. At 5?19? and 191 pounds, be may be getting a little too stocky for short stop. I like him, though.
Eduardo Nunez is the real thing on offense. He has speed and the power should be sort of Jeter type power. That will come when he puts on some weight. His defensive issues has always been footwork.
By the way….you’ll love Daniel Brewer. Not much power, but a good, young hitter with speed. Plays mainly corner outfielder and well, but, plays all three and first base.
==============
Thanks, GB. Always good to hear we have a heady defensive player who is still technically a teenager.
Yeah, I am stoked about Nunez. I fear he’ll wind up in SWB, thus prematurely ending another romance of mine.
You say I’ll love Brewer – is supposed to get promoted to AA? I’ve read about him being a good all-around type player.
You’re most welcome, Betsy. Keep in mind, though. Those are only my opinions…of a fan and amateur observor.
Nick in SF
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:49 pm
Patisserie Claude…wow, that brings back memories. I grew up in the neighborhood amd went there all the time. Nothing was worse than getting there too late in the day and finding him already sold out of Napoleons…often that was my dessert after lunch at The Bagel.
====
Claude is a mercurial little fellow. He can be rather soft-hearted, and, in turn, he can refuse to heat up your croissant. He’s actually semi-retired. I’ve always liked him. It’s all the more worth the trip if he scowls at you.
He must have stopped making Napoleons. That was my great regret about the place – no napoleons. But the pear tart is ridiculous – and what about the little individual quiches? They are clouds in the mouth.
Yeah, Bodh. Brewer should be starting at Trenton in 2010. right now, he’s a singles/doubles hitter with a little power.
Pat,
I understand that there is a cultural revolution of sourts going on. But don’t forget that Stick was the guy who brough the Yanks back to their OBP based history, and Buck was into OBP, too. Watson was a functionary, but a very good player back in the day.
pat
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:05 am
Bodhi
My sister-in-law is a chocolate snob and always talked about Kee’s so I made a friend take a detour while we were in the city and go with me one day.
Well worth the walk. Only disappointment was I love cinnamon and they didn’t have anything with it.
=====
Why not tell her? She might come up with a cinnamon chocolate truffle upon suggestion.
I was a reasonable fan of Jacques Torrez before I had Kee’s. Now, there’s no turning back. If you’ve been to ABC in Union Square, there’s this Michel Cluizet or however it’s spelled. Found it just too rich.
What I like about her is she takes something off…yeah…offspeed chocolates. Maybe that’s her chinese roots speaking.
When you went to Thompson Street, no doubt the smell of the chocolate being made went right to your head….:D
GB7,
I’ll look forward to seeing him up here, then.
You may be getting DeLeon down by you. Man, you lose Manny but you’re gaining Jose Ramirez and Vizcaino in 2010. I look forward to your thorough reports and I’ll be taking a trip in May to Lakewood, NJ to see a 4-game series w/your Riverdogs.
Joseph
Are you drinking? Torre was handed a great team,that was on auto pilot.
Remember Ken Rosenthal, what he said to Jeter at the end of the ALCS “You have not won a world series since 2000 and you have not been to one since 2003″.
I think that a lot of the media types like Abe and Rosy and Buck and so on, the intentionally try and plant seeds of doubt in individual Yankees..
Go ahead and say these guys are professionals, they are not going to doubt themselves….
But these guys are humans, they are not robots. They all have feelings, memories, have good and bad days, even doubt themselves sometimes (though I cannot imagine Derek ever doubting himself).
Phil, Stick was a outstanding baseball guy fating back to the early 70′s….He used to come by the back field in Lauderdale and work with the infielders…Footwork, working runners back to the bag, learning the hitters….He was great with the hidden ball trick as well…..Knew the game, gave me crap because I didn’t take the free ride to Kent State…..I was there a week before the shootings on May 4th…..Stratch golfer as the standing joke was who was getting hustled after practice…He was tight with Ford & Mantle
Stick was always a popular guy among the Yanks who came before him and while he was there. I know Bobby loved him. He was a bad hitter, but a tall shortstop, who was sharp. He understood that from the time of Huggins on, the Yanks were big OBP proponents and he decided to get the team back to that.
Stick was tight with Thurman as well.
Like Willie Randolph, he was a Pirate first.
Roberto Alomar gave some high praise to Robbie Cano:
Alomar still keeps an eye on the current Bombers, including a certain second baseman who reminds Alomar of himself – the flashy, gifted (and often nonchalant) Robinson Cano.
“When you have too much talent, you can end up playing that way,” Alomar said of Cano. “But I do think Robinson is going to be an MVP and Gold Glover. That’s how good he is. The rest is up to him.”
The Stick & Slick were always putting a hurt to guys on the links……He was the guy who replaced Wills in LA….Very soft spoken Gentlemen & very much into the instructional / coaching part of the game……His was suppose to move into the front office a few years before he actually did….Houk talked into playing in Detroit in 75 from what I remember, and they were a really bad team……Phill you’re right about the OBP, especially in the mold of Richardson & Kubek, table setters
Pat,
Casey used to implore Richardson to walk more, but he says they only threw him strikes. In any event, his batting in front of Mickey is one of the reasons why Mickey didn’t have more 100 RBI seasons. His OBP was .299 for his career, and batting him leadoff for the Yanks should have been disastrous for the Yanks, but it wasn’t because of what was behind him. But Huggins himself walked a lot, and so did his players and McGraw’s players and a bunch of Casey’s players. Billy Martin used to want Rivers to bunt and walk more, and of course Willie Randolph was a great OBP guy – and paradoxically that’s why he’s underrated.
bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:24 am
GB7,
I’ll look forward to seeing him up here, then.
You may be getting DeLeon down by you. Man, you lose Manny but you’re gaining Jose Ramirez and Vizcaino in 2010. I look forward to your thorough reports and I’ll be taking a trip in May to Lakewood, NJ to see a 4-game series w/your Riverdogs.
————————————————————
Looking forward to seeing DeLeon, but some of the kids out od staten island look good, too. Neill Medchill, Zpoilo Almonte, Deangelo Mack and Kyle Higashoka on offense should give Charleston what they were missing this year….bats and power. They should have a couple of great arms coming in, too, with Ben Watkins, Ronny Marte and especially, Adam Warren and Arodys Vizcaino. Trent Lare was outstanding at Staten Island, but, he was also 24 years old. Not sure what to think, there. Another great year in Dixie.
Phil, That was always confusing about Bobby, he never whiffed, but yet never scored 100 runs…….I was recruited by him in 1970 and even worked out with him…He had the quickest hands I had ever seen when turning the duece……South Carolina wasn’t for me……
The Riverdogs should be a lot of fun this year – at least till promotions move some of them up to radio dead Tampa. I was glad that Zolio Almonte started to shine a bit this year. They had been high on him for some time with no tangible results. I think Lassiter might be back in Charleston, and Angelini could even be there for round three. Mack really came on after they shifted some things, and will remind you a bit of Jimmy Wynn when you see him, so keep your fingers crossed that the power follows him to the Sally league and beyond. Medchill should be interesting to follow. He’s looking more and more like a steal. The pitching staff could be somewhat insane. Should be great.
Pat,
That’s the thing about Richardson, he was a picture perfect fielder at second(though I learned from watching Randolph after I hurt my arm) and never struck out, so he appeared to be much more productive than he was. So he was sort of overrated as a hitter and Randolph was underrated.
One thing the Yanks could always do when they were good was turn the DP. From McGraw through Casey, whoever they put in there, and they would mix and match sometimes, could turn DP’s as well as any seasoned pair in baseball. It was sort of freakish.
Phil, I was a SS that was being converted to 2nd due to my side arm throwing style when I needed to unload from the hole….Good thing I gave it up in early 74, because 2 years later # 30 came onboard for Doc and that was that for a long time at 2nd….Willie was a star ballplayer on a team that had a galaxy of big stars….He played in All-Star games however you’re right he never really got his due…..
Willie’s one of the 20 greatest 2b’s of all time. And I still can’t stand McCrae for running into him. Of course that created Brian Doyle’s big chance to shine. After the `78 series, I’m not sure I can remember anyone hitting more shots right to the lip of the warning track when Brian got to play.
They were just starting to get really good again when you gave it up. Were you hurt?
Oh, the nostalgia!
Willie Randolph is the reason I became a Yankee fan. Still is my all-time Yankee favorite, and has been since 1976.
G’night all.
We got Dock Ellis in the same deal.
Phil, Left knee , damaged some cartilidge….Since then I’ve had my left hip replaced 3 times and 5 knee proceedures…..
Great observation Chad! You are correct!
GB, I need to do some research and find a bus tour that visits these various Civil War battlefields. I think your idea is a good one…….Over the weekend, I’m going to start working on this so I can plan a trip for next Spring or Summer.
Betsy
How was the Star Wars concert?
Guess I don’t understand the “ranking” of players as Type A or Type B, but Billy Wagner is a Type A and Andy Pettitte is a Type B???????? Something doesn’t seem right…..
Upstate Kate, it was fantastic, just so much fun. I wish I could do it again (well, except for the part where it took 40 minutes to get out of the parking lot, lol). John Williams is a genius…….