The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Let’s talk money

Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Dec 03, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

I’ve had a bunch of e-mails about the Yankees payroll situation recently, so let’s talk about it for a moment. According to the fantastic database at Cot’s Contracts, the Yankees have approximately $170 million already committed to players for 2010. That doesn’t include arbitration deals for young players like Melky Cabrera and Brett Gardner, and it also doesn’t include any deal that ultimately gets worked out for Andy Pettitte.

(FYI: Johnny Damon, Hideki Matsui, Jose Molina, Pettitte, Xavier Nady and Chien-Ming Wang come off the books this winter for about $45 million while Derek Jeter, CC Sabathia, Robinson Cano and Damaso Marte get raises for about $15 million.)

In 2009, the Yankees payroll was approximately $206 million. With the winter meetings approaching next week, Brian Cashman is in Tampa today (and tomorrow) to talk with the Steinbrenners and other team officials about what, exactly, the team is prepared to spend on players this coming year.

The goal, at least in the long-term, has been for the Yankees to reduce payroll. There has been talk for a while now about how Hal Steinbrenner would like to see the payroll under $200 million at some point in the near future, and the Yankees made their big splashes last offseason – CC, A.J., Tex – because they had $100 million coming off the books that winter as well as the knowledge that this year’s free agent crop was weak.

It was a smart move and, if not for Roy Halladay, the Yankees would be in a position to easily drop payroll this winter. There is no free agent on the market right now that is a “must-get” for the Yankees in the way that, say, John Lackey is almost a necessity for the Mets to sign if they are serious about becoming a contender again. The Yankees do not have that big a glaring need that they couldn’t look at more mid-level players for and/or fill from within. Unfortunately, Halladay is the X-factor.

There has been speculation about the possibility that Halladay might not require a contract extension from the team that acquires him, and it’s true he hasn’t made that as public as Johan Santana did two years ago. That said, Halladay isn’t an idiot, and it would be insanely stupid for a 32-year-old pitcher who throws a ton of innings not to get some security at this point in his career. Halladay will want an extension and he will get it – figure on something like five years, $23 million (otherwise known as CC money)?

There are only a few teams who can afford that and the Yankees are, of course, one of them. But if the Yankees were to do that, they’d do so knowing that their 2013 payroll would include $62.5 million going to three pitchers: Halladay ($23M), Sabathia ($23M) and A.J. Burnett ($16.5M). That’s a lot for a group where Sabathia would be the youngest at age 33 (the other two would be 36).

Add in (the assumed) Jeter deal, A-Rod’s never-ending contract and the money owed to Teixeira, and suddenly the long-term budget projections for 2013 are looking particularly bloated.

It isn’t my money and, as I’ve said before, I think the Yankees would be foolish not to seriously consider making a move for Halladay. But even following a year where the Yankees surely flourished financially, it’s hard not to wonder – and hard not to blame them for wondering – just how much is too much?

 
 

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212 Responses to “Let’s talk money”

  1. Betsy - high on pie December 3rd, 2009 at 8:43 am

    Adding Halladay would not be a case of “too much”……..I hope that they don’t pass on him simply because of the $$$$. If the Jays ask for too much in terms of prospects, that’s another thing altogether.

    As for whether he’d sign an extension: Doc might not if the Jays put together a deal with a team, say the Angels, that doesn’t fit all his requirements (I think it’s pretty obvious that he prefers a team that trains in Florida). He’d probably go there just to get out of Toronto, but maybe just for the year so he could become a FA and go to where he really wants to go (NY, Boston or whomever – on th East Coast). I posted an article yesterday from Bob Elliot (I think) of the Toronto Sun that laid out a lot of what Doc is thinking. I think he may be patient enough to wait until next year to make his big score.

  2. Chris from NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 8:46 am

    The big question with Halladay is, will he pitch like David Cone and bring multiple championships with great pitching and leadership, or is there some more risk with having huge, untradeable contracts with multiple pitchers in their post-prime years??

    I love Halladay as a pitcher, but if you believe that Joba AND Hughes can pitch league average or better and fill out the back end of your rotation for another 5 years, I think you need to stick with that. The Yankee lineup is still an old one, and giving up one of hugh/joba and one of montero/jackson would give up the few young pieces you could plug in to make the team younger. If the price on Halladay falls to just Joba/Hughes and some lesser prospects, than I think you make the deal and pay the money.

  3. Erin December 3rd, 2009 at 8:50 am

    I would love for them to get Hallady-my only problem is I really, really don’t want them to give up Joba, Hughes or Montero to get him.

  4. Sam Borden December 3rd, 2009 at 8:53 am

    Betsy:

    I have seen that speculation in several places and the logic is sound. Certainly Halladay looks like he cares a LOT more about winning than the average star.

    At this point, though, in the world we live in now, I just can’t see a pitcher who has any kind of decent business adviser making that type of decision. It would just be crazy. If you have a family and want long-term security for three generations, than you just HAVE to get the money while you can and avoid the possibility that something – anything – happens to you (on the field or off) that could end your career. I think it’d be great if Halladay just pushed for a trade to a good team, but he’d be nuts not to get an extension out of it.

  5. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 8:53 am

    It’s all the more reason why they need to accumulate as many talented cost-controlled players as possible in order to offset the bloated contracts.

    A small aside, Halladay is 32.

  6. murphydog December 3rd, 2009 at 8:57 am

    Sure, Halladay is pricey. Acquiring a veteran pitcher has its upside in terms of experience, consistency and knowing how to pitch successfully. The downside is that a lot of miles have been logged on that arm and that with pitchers, it could all end at a moment’s notice with a tweak, twinge or pop in the shoulder. All that said, I think the “cost” of Halladay has to be considered in terms of the cost of not acquiring him. If Le Roy goes to Boston, does it mean insufficient wins in that Division to get into the playoffs and another WS win? Same question if he goes out of the Division and or league.

    Just as Jeter could not abide Witasick’s “At least I had fun,” I don’t see Hal and Hank sitting back and saying, “At least we saved some money.” Budget reduction is not a virtue in and of itself for the Yankees. Budget reduction plus success is the goal; the first without the second is not acceptable.

  7. Sam Borden December 3rd, 2009 at 8:58 am

    Thanks, Rich. Changed.

    To all: I know that the natural response to any talk about Yankees payroll is to say, “they make so much, just pay it” but the reality is that it is a factor (both in the big picture, as I mentioned above) and the short-term, too.

    Would it keep the Yankees from getting Halladay if the right player package was out there? I don’t think it would – and it wouldn’t if it was my decision – but to think that money isn’t a legitimate factor for the Yankees as they go into the Winter Meetings is naive. It is because it always is in pro sports.

  8. tom A December 3rd, 2009 at 9:00 am

    Do future free agents ever come in play (with the budget)? Joe Mauer may be available in a years time. Do the Yanks plan ahead for a possible large bid?

  9. Sam Borden December 3rd, 2009 at 9:00 am

    Murphydog,

    Good point about the where-does-he-go? You know that, especially under George, that was a big part of any decision and often times the determining factor. In this case, I’m not as sure the current administration (Hal, Cash, et. al) are as focused on that as in the past. It’s a valid concern, though.

    OK, I’ve got to go teach. Back later on.

  10. Fran (the original) and OPPC member December 3rd, 2009 at 9:02 am

    When the Yankees passed on Santana Cashman knew that CC was going to be a free agent the following season and would not cost players. If the Yankees pass on Halliday, where is the next big pitcher coming from? From reading Girardi’s comments it certainly doesn’t seem like Hughes or Joba will be the answer.

  11. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 9:02 am

    Erin
    I agree. Its a tough decision and I am glad I don’t have to make it. It would be hard to pass up an ace like Hallady, but I would hate to lose Joba or Phil who have so much potential.

  12. DaSaint007 December 3rd, 2009 at 9:03 am

    This has been much debated here and elsewhere. I believe economics are a significant factor. As blessed as the Yankees are, even their revenues can be affected by current market conditions.

    Multiple valued prospects are normally traded for star-caliber, contract-controlled players. The Jays (and Halladay) would have to agree to grant a window to negotiate a contract extension before I would even offer any high-end players.

    If no extension is granted, then its unreasonable to expect multiple top caliber prospects for a 1 year rental. Regardless a package of 2 pitchers selected from a pool of the likes of Kennedy, McAllister, Nova, and Coke, as well as Austine Romine, considered by many to be a balanced catching prospect, and a lower level prospect should be sufficient in my opinion.

  13. damon enjoy 27...think 28 December 3rd, 2009 at 9:05 am

    This is music to my ears.AJ CC and other team mates are lobbying Cashman,both Steinbrenner brother to trade for Halladay.The link below shares info that AJ THINKS DOC IS A PERFECT FIT FOR THE TEAM AND THE CITY.

    http://www.nybaseballdigest.com/?p=18444

    AJ is on a mission to get Halladay to the Yankees. The fact that CC isn’t threatened and pushing for Doc to come helps.
    CC being the ACE and wanting Doc here is all good!

  14. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 9:06 am

    why trade for halladay when we can wait for next years fa pitchers or trade for a younger more cost controlled pitcher now?

    it makes no sense to add a 33 yr old pitcher & give up top prospects

    if we can get him with joba & 2 lesser prospects you have to think about it but…

  15. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 9:06 am

    ” The downside is that a lot of miles have been logged on that arm and that with pitchers, it could all end at a moment’s notice with a tweak, twinge or pop in the shoulder.”

    The contract and the risk of injury to a middle-aged pitcher have to reduce the price paid in terms of prospects/young players. The idea that the Yankees have to give up Joba or Hughes or Montero is absurd when you consider the price in player personnel assets for comparable pitchers like Santana and Lee.

    “Budget reduction is not a virtue in and of itself for the Yankees.”

    I think the primary reason why the Yankees will reduce their payroll is because they fear that if they don’t that the next CBA will contain an even more onerous luxury (read Yankee) tax.

  16. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 9:07 am

    Fran (the original) and OPPC member

    next year has some great fa pitchers available

  17. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 9:09 am

    halladay & pettitte takes our payroll to 200 million with no lf & dh as of now

  18. austinmac December 3rd, 2009 at 9:10 am

    Does the $206M payroll from last year include Pettitte’s bonuses or is it considered at the base rate? If it is at the base rate, as I suspect, that gives another $5M cushion to lower the payroll.

    If the goal is to be under $200M, that is problematic since, assuming Pettitte signs for $11M, that only leaves something in the range of $15M to fill another starter’s spot(isn’t Girardi clearly saying that is necessary), LF and DH. Even assuming no DH will be signed, that is a tight budget. I like DeJesus, but he will not be as cheap in talent to acquire as some would think. I doubt they would make two trades depleting young talent. That makes me believe one of these spots will be filled by free agency.

  19. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 9:10 am

    king felix,becket,lee i believe are all fa next year

  20. Patrick from CT December 3rd, 2009 at 9:13 am

    The Yankees are not going to trade 1 of Joba/Phil plus 2 other near read prospects and them write another 100+mil contract on top of that. The Red Sox are not going to do a similar deal either. That is simply too high a price to pay. Santana cost prospects and $$ but none of the prospects were of the value of Joba, Phil, or Bucholtz.
    Halladay’s price is going to have to come way down to be moved to either the Yankees or Sox. Both the Yankees and Sox have core players with their contracts coming to an end after 2010, what do you think these guys will think if their team was to trade for a guy that is under contract and then write him a big extension??? If I’m Jeter, Mo, or for the Sox Beckett, Papalbum, I would be asking where’s mine?

  21. JohnC December 3rd, 2009 at 9:14 am

    King Felix is not a Fa until after 2011. Phillies are going to do all they can to sign Lee to and extension before he hits free agency. That would leave Halladay, assuming that he doesn’t get traded and sign an extension.

  22. JohnC December 3rd, 2009 at 9:14 am

    I’d like to see them sign Sheets or Bedard, and Chapman. Maybe sign DeRosa to play left and backup IF.

  23. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 9:15 am

    Sam,

    CC actually received 23M from the Yankees during the last 12 months due that 9M bonus plus his 16M 2009 salary. So in essence, his salary for 2010 is still 23M.

  24. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 9:15 am

    damon enjoy 27…think 28

    With regard to:

    http://www.nybaseballdigest.com/?p=18444

    Has Frank Russo ever been right about anything?

  25. Fran (the original) and OPPC member December 3rd, 2009 at 9:16 am

    bru,

    Thanks for some of the names. Is there a site where I can see a list of potential free agents?

  26. murphydog December 3rd, 2009 at 9:16 am

    “I think the primary reason why the Yankees will reduce their payroll is because they fear that if they don’t that the next CBA will contain an even more onerous luxury (read Yankee) tax.”

    Good point about luxury tax concerns as all the talking heads this year did their obilgatory “Yankees Buy Another WS” pieces. Nothing like a bunch of rich guys getting together to suppress free enterprise.

    Still, IMO, the Yankees will not sacrifice short term success in favor of significant financial savings. I don’t see the Steinbrenners doing a “re-building” year or two because they want to be ready to dodge the future luxury tax. They walk a very fine line between fiscal equipose and integrity in operations versus consistent, short term succcess. I can see them rationalizing: “OK, we get Halladay and then we start saving.” If they can confidently project out the next five years in the farm system and likely free agents, and conclude that Roy is the last piece to another Dynasty run, I think they do it and do their penance later.

  27. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 9:17 am

    I don’t think that Cot number includes Pettitte’s incentives earned during 2009 which was near 5M.

  28. SJ44 December 3rd, 2009 at 9:17 am

    There is nobody in the Yankee organization, especially Hal Steinbrenner, who cares about whether the fans, media, pundits, or anybody else will cry “too much” if the Yankees decide on pursuing Roy Halladay. That’s not how they work and that’s not how they think.

    Since the 1920′s, fans, media and pundits have cried about the Yankees spending and how its going to “ruin baseball”.

    So far, at least in the last 90 years, they have been wrong.

    Nobody cares when the Yankees are cutting 50+ million dollar annual checks to the MLB General Fund, and watch the small market teams who get that money put it into their pockets rather than into their teams. I don’t hear fans, media and pundit cry foul about that.

    Payroll is a direct byproduct of revenue and profits.

    Sure, the Yankee payroll is high.

    However, and this is a point missed by just about EVERYBODY who discusses this subject, their % of payroll against revenues is right around the league average.

    Most teams have between 25-35% of their overall revenue going toward payroll. Some are lower and some are higher. Overall though, they fall within the 25-35% range.

    In other words, if a team brings in 100 million dollars in annual revenue, 25-35 million of that is dedicated toward payroll.

    The Yankees, at least under the Steinbrenner’s, have always been at or around those averages.

    They simply bring in more revenue than other teams and have more to spend.

    That hasn’t changed under Hal Steinbrenner, nor will it.

    Does that mean they will throw all caution to the wind? Of course not.

    Does that mean they would love to reduce payroll? Of course they would.

    However, more than anything else, they want to keep winning because winning is VERY profitable to the NY Yankees.

    That’s why they hold meetings. To maximize their money in the best way possible to keep winning.

  29. squidward December 3rd, 2009 at 9:19 am

    “CC actually received 23M from the Yankees during the last 12 months due that 9M bonus plus his 16M 2009 salary. So in essence, his salary for 2010 is still 23M.”

    He was, but he was on the books for $14M in ’09 for luxury tax purposes. He’ll be on the books for $24M+ over the next several years.

  30. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 9:20 am

    i would call the mariners & see if we can get king felix & what it will cost

    cano,joba
    & another prospect but we keep hughes,ajax & montero

    joba & cano will take payroll down to about 159 million plus 4 million for kf.163 million

    add pettitte for 8 million,171 million.

    we can add damon & matsui for 18 million & be sitting at 189 million with all of our problems solved except 2nd base but have the best rotation around & a 24 year old ace.

    or we can sign holliday for 16 million & be at 187 million & leave the dh spot open or sign a dh

    we can add a second baseman or play pena there

  31. haiku-man December 3rd, 2009 at 9:20 am

    Damon

    I believe this article,because of their friendship,hope it works.May be Halladay will wait like AJ,and CC and become a FA,if the price is too high,for a trade.

  32. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 9:21 am

    “However, more than anything else, they want to keep winning because winning is VERY profitable to the NY Yankees.”

    Right, on top of the regular season attendance that comes with having a winning team, those seven home playoff games generated a bunch of revenue for the Yankees this year.

  33. damon enjoy 27...think 28 December 3rd, 2009 at 9:23 am

    Rich n NJ

    Time will tell!

  34. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 9:26 am

    “He was, but he was on the books for $14M in ‘09 for luxury tax purposes. He’ll be on the books for $24M+ over the next several years.”

    How’s that??? CC signed 161M contract for seven years which averages out to 23M per season. In the last 12 months since 12/31/08, he received 23M from the Yankees for the 2009 season and will receive 23M for the next six years unless he opts out after the 2011 season.

  35. SJ44 December 3rd, 2009 at 9:26 am

    King Felix isn’t on the market. Its a wasted phone call.

    It would cost the Yankees more in prospects to get King Felix (if he was on the market) than it will to get Roy Halladay.

  36. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 9:29 am

    “It would cost the Yankees more in prospects to get King Felix (if he was on the market) than it will to get Roy Halladay.”

    Of course, but if you are going to give up prospects, it makes more sense to do it for a 23 year old rather than a 32 year old.

    But you’re right that the point is almost certainly moot.

  37. Just call me Mr. Clutch December 3rd, 2009 at 9:33 am

    It used to be that the Yankees had a lower salary offering for ballplayers. Their bargaining point was the players getting WS money to make up the difference.

    That is different now.

  38. austinmac December 3rd, 2009 at 9:34 am

    If CC’s bonus is not included in 2009 luxury tax calculations it would seem prudent to always give a large bonus and defer luxury tax payments over the course of the contract.

    I have to believe the Yankee ownership enjoyed the accolades and money from winning. The Yankees have learned winning makes money. We can, I think, know they will spend money in an effort to keep winning.

  39. disco stu December 3rd, 2009 at 9:35 am

    I dont claim to be any sort of financial guru … far from it. However, I know enough about the Yankees that they have revenue streams that put them into the stratosphere when compared to what other baseball teams deal with when creating a budget for any new baseball season.

    The Yankees have business ventures with Manchester United, Youmuri Giants, an exclusive merchandising lisence with Addidas, food/beverage partnership with Jerry Jones, IT partnership with Cisco, deal directly with China to develop and procure baseball talent, a new monolith baseball stadium that includes amongst other things NYY Steakhouse which is open year round, and of course, YES … I’m sure I am missing others as well.

    You mean to tell me that if the Yankees were in a “pinch” and needed more money to help supplement their budget for player payroll, they couldnt re-allocate a monicum of the global money they annually make hand-over-fist and apply it to the team on the field?

    C’mon … money has never and will never be an issue with the Yankees … they are a global, corporate, monster … if they need to secure another 5 million dollars to their payroll to ensure that they trade for Roy Halladay (and sign him to an extention) and have money left over to bring back Johnny Damon and Andy Pettitte, people are nuts if they think they wont have the means and resources to do just that.

  40. SJ44 December 3rd, 2009 at 9:36 am

    32 isn’t ancient. The way Halladay pitches, he can pitch until he’s 40 because he pitches to contact and his delivery is stress free on his elbow and shoulder.

    The Yankees acquired guys like Cone, Wells and Clemens in their 30′s and did well with those acquisitions.

    Everybody wants Andy Pettitte back (as do I), and he will be 38 next year. He won’t even allow his elbow to be MRI’ed because he doesn’t want to know what’s messed up in there. Yet, he is still able to pitch effectively.

    Roy Halladay’s durability is only questioned by those who want to hug every prospect and believe they will all be stars for years to come.

    People in the game aren’t worried about his durability. They are more worried about whether Joba Chamberlain can hold up physically more than Roy Halladay.

    Doc will get a 4-5 year deal from somebody and the odds are pretty strong (given his history, medicals and pitching style) he will be able to hold up through most, if not all, of that deal.

    Just as others like Wells and Clemens did in their time.

  41. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 9:37 am

    3 pitchers locked up for 15 years/62 million a year & a total age of 109 years old

    no thanks

  42. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 9:38 am

    109 when their contracts are over

  43. Brian NYY December 3rd, 2009 at 9:39 am

    If the Yankees can get Doc, the revenue they would create would pay for his salary. It has been said once and been said a million times, the Yankees are in another stratosphere when it comes to revenue generation. Salary is a relative statement because the other teams cannot even join the Yankees’ financial universe. So guess what, if you can get Doc, you get him. Don’t worry about salary. No team makes as much as the Yankees make. So why should they have to play by the same rules, when they left everyone else’s game a long time ago.

  44. ANSKY December 3rd, 2009 at 9:39 am

    Some thing else to think about when considering payroll as far down the road as 2013. If you give Halladay a “CC money” extension when you trade two or three of (just for example) Joba, Hughes, Melky, Ajax, or perhaps Swisher, how much would those guys start making around that year? Swisher’s 7 mill (or so) would be off the books by then. Joba and/or Hughes would be making a few mill each by then with increases soon expected.

    Also, how much would the diff be when Halladay, CC and AJ all come off the books? To think about what’s available then, well, that may be over-thinking it a little at this point.

    I’m for not trading mucho talent that’s now just about ML-ready to get Halladay (let the Sox, Dodgers or Angels do that) but rather signing Lackey (and losing just a draft pick) and of course re-signing Pettitte.

  45. Noreaster December 3rd, 2009 at 9:42 am

    I think that people miss the point about the 206 million payroll the Yankees have. The Yankees have something that nobody else in baseball has, 4 ‘core’ guys who have been playing together since 1996/7 with 2 being 1st ballot HOF’ers and 2 playing All Star caliber baseball. The Yankees didn’t buy them, they rewarded them. That accounts for roughly 53 million dollars in payroll.

    Sure they ‘bought’ CC, AJ and Tex last year. But didn’t Boston buy DiceK and JD Drew in ’07 and tried to get Tex at 170M last year?

  46. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 9:43 am

    “The Yankees acquired guys like Cone, Wells and Clemens in their 30’s and did well with those acquisitions.”

    But none of those pitchers cost the Yankees assets like Joba, Hughes, or Montero.

  47. ANSKY December 3rd, 2009 at 9:44 am

    Not worried about durability from CC. AJ on the other hand … a few erratic games aside, we’ve been lucky on the durability front so far with him. But there are still four years to go. At least Pettitte and his elbow seems to be content with 1-2 year deals.

  48. Doreen December 3rd, 2009 at 9:47 am

    bru -

    That’s just silly.

    It’s five years. They’ll each be in their mid-thirties. The $62 million aggregate is fair.

    You can’t say it’s 15 years and 109 years of age. Silly.

    The only thing I think about regarding the payroll is how it must really stick in the craw of the Yankees to continually be financing other teams, who still continue to cry about the unfairness of it all.

    If they can keep their payroll at a level percentage-wise that maxmimizes their own team but minimizes the contribution to their competition, I think that’s what they try to do. I think that’s what they’re working towards – the best ratio for them.

    SJ44 -

    There have been rumblings (probably started by the comments of Henry) that revenue sharing should be lowered, and luxury tax raised. So, stop penalizing teams for making money, but increase the penalty if you spend “too much” on payroll. Do you think that the Yankees are trying to be pro-active here, i.e., trying to read the writing on the wall?

    It seems the worst thing for the Yankees to do with regard to all of this is to actually have to nerve to WIN. MLB et al. seem perfectly okay with the Yankees’ spending and accumulating “the best” players as long as it doesn’t result in a WS victory and/or appearance. They’re allowed to get to the playoffs, but not to win. Then all heck breaks loose.

  49. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 9:47 am

    it is the combination of all the factors that i wouldn’t do it

    i know prospects usually don’t pan out but just remember arod,pujols,ramirez,king felix & every other player that ever played the game were prospects at one time

    it is possible that joba can become an ace or montero is huge

    we just don’t know

    the problem i have is the money,prospects it will cost combined

    i know lackey is not as durable but aj wasn’t at on time either & lackey only costs money & we keep all of our prospects & lackey might be 7 million a year cheaper

    are we better off with lackey while keeping all of our prospects & 7 million dollars a year more in our pocket?

  50. SJ44 December 3rd, 2009 at 9:48 am

    If CC exercises his opt out after next season, that also opens up money.

    Not exactly an impossible scenario.

    Money isn’t as big a deal on these things as fans think.

    Its about positioning the team in the best possible way to win consistently.

    If it was just about getting younger, the Marlins, Pirates and Royals would win every year.

    Cashman himself has said getting younger for the sake of getting younger doesn’t make you better.

  51. Noreaster December 3rd, 2009 at 9:48 am

    And I agree with Rich, look at the package that Philadelphia gave up last year as a barometer for what we should give up to land Doc. There was no Joba, Hughes or Montero in that package.

    Montero has a chance to be a special player. Remember that he is just turning 20…

  52. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 9:49 am

    If CC opts out, he would likely only do so in order to get more money…from the Yankees.

  53. SJ44 December 3rd, 2009 at 9:51 am

    At the time David Cone was traded to the Yankees, some members of the front office were vehement about not giving up “can’t miss” pitching prospect Marty Janzen in the deal.

    Some were very upset when he went in the deal to Toronto for Cone.

    How did that work out?

    How do you know Montero would be in the deal? Just because MLB Trade Rumors says so doesn’t make it a fact.

    They can give up one of the younger arms for Halladay (and probably would have to) and not miss a beat because they would have Halladay and the remaining younger arm.

    Right now, Montero can’t even get on the field in Winter Ball.

    A cautionary tale to those who believe every hyped prospect is “can’t miss”.

  54. Jerkface December 3rd, 2009 at 9:52 am

    The luxury tax is stupid. The yankees spend in the top percentile of teams for payroll/revenues, but its within an ordinary range. football and basketball teams both spend around 60% of revenues on player contracts. Baseball is closer to 50%.

    The luxury tax should be a threshold by percentage of revenues and not a flat dollar amount. If the Yankees lower their payroll closer to 150 million, they will only be spending say 25-35% of their revenue on payroll, while other teams will be spending 40-50% (the good ones)

  55. Noreaster December 3rd, 2009 at 9:53 am

    I think CC has to be looking at the market and thinking that he hit it just right. He wasn’t able to get much of a bidding war going, but he got his cash. Maybe I’m naive, but he doesn’t strike me as someone who will Opt out…

  56. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 9:53 am

    SJ44,

    Now you’re changing your tune because you said you wouldn’t trade Montero for Halladay this past summer.

  57. Neil December 3rd, 2009 at 9:56 am

    Should a deal for Halladay see fruition, his workload will lessen just as Sabathia’s did last season. Both were expected to go deep in games with previous teams. With a good Yankee bullpen and a manager that knows how to use it, neither pitcher should exceed 200 innings.

  58. 86w183 December 3rd, 2009 at 9:57 am

    Sam —

    The $$$ figures you are using are not entirely accurate. CC was paid $ 23 Million last year. His “salary” might go up but his “money” stays the same so it should not be counted. That’s $ 9 Million extra.

    Also Texiera’s was paid $ 25 Million last year and will be paid $ 20 Million this year.

    Each guy’s luxury tax calculations are somewhat different.

    You also understate the amount of money coming off payroll. You have to include everything Pettite earned ($ 10.5) not his $ 5.5 “salary”. The Yanks have over $ 50 Million coming off the books.

    Media guys love to “report” that the Yankees would like to cut payroll, but there is not one shred of evidence to support that notion.

    The Steinbrothers are their father’s sons and while they may be more careful about spending and value the financial implications or transactions more than The Boss they are not going to let it get in the way of winning.

    And there’s loads of evidence to support that theory.

  59. austinmac December 3rd, 2009 at 9:58 am

    I believe Joba may or may not become a top-flight starter. I would put the odds at under 50%. The odds Halladay will be atop-flight starter over the next 5 years is, in my opinion, far higher. Can Halladay get hurt? Of course, so can Joba. Joba, and two other solid minor leaguers that do not include Jackson or Montero.

    We hear discussions of the Jays being willing to hold onto Halladay and collect the draft picks. Draft picks are nice, but few ever make it to the majors much less become stars. Good minor league prosects are closer to the majors and more easily evaluated.

  60. SJ44 December 3rd, 2009 at 9:59 am

    I didn’t say I would trade Montero. I’m saying that for every “can’t miss” prospect folks crow about, most of them don’t make it.

    Just look at the last 15 years with the Yankees as proof.

    I don’t know many publications that had Mariano Rivera and Andy Pettitte as “can’t miss” propsects back in the day.

    My point is, the Yankees have the depth in their farm system to make a Halladay trade and the Jays know it.

    Its a matter of who goes to Toronto and that’s going to be in direct correlation to the other offers they receive.

  61. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 10:01 am

    “At the time David Cone was traded to the Yankees, some members of the front office were vehement about not giving up “can’t miss” pitching prospect Marty Janzen in the deal.”

    I remember, but Joba and Hughes have had ML success.

    Are you seriously questioning Montero has he recovers from a finger injury?

  62. waswhining December 3rd, 2009 at 10:01 am

    Of all the pitchers mentioned (who’s available this year and next) Halladay is the only one who approaches as the replacement for Andy Petite who will be here next year and who-knows-after-that. When Andy comes off the books either Phil Hughes or Joba will be ready to assume a #3 position in the rotation.

    As far as trade goes all you have to do is beat Boston’s offer. They really only have Bucholtz who has shown cracks in his makeup — I think the Yanks have more in their minors than he is worth. If I were a Jay’s fan, I’d be ready for some big time disappointment here. I don’t think they get any of the players mentioned thus far.

  63. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 10:01 am

    *as he recovers*

  64. Patrick from CT December 3rd, 2009 at 10:01 am

    You can call me a prospect hugger or what ever. I’m not trading Phil or Joba for 1 year of Roy. The Yankee don’t need Roy to win the WS next year. You want to trade some minor leaguers for Roy, great. Roy will be a FA next year.
    I want my cake and eat it too. Just sign Andy and some other FA pitcher for the 2010 run.
    Now who’s going to be in the Outfield for 2010?

  65. Noreaster December 3rd, 2009 at 10:03 am

    Also, don’t forget to factor in the Cashman factor. He came back to the Yankees (so he said) to make sure his legacy would be intact when he left. Does he really just want to be known for trading the best of his prospects for ‘older’ talent? I don’t think so…

  66. CountryClub December 3rd, 2009 at 10:03 am

    I’ve read numerous scouts say that Montero can hit in the majors right now. Nobody questions his bat. His catching, on the other hand, is a hug question mark.

  67. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 10:05 am

    Doreen

    most of the huge long term contracts to pitchers do not work

    cc was only 28 or 29 when we got him

    zito,bedard are 2 examples

    all the talk was how smart cash was for waiting to sign fa instead of trading for them & paying them depleting our system

    now we wan’t to do things different

    we cant keep all of them i know but at least we should try to trade them for long term solutions

    how much better are we with halladay over lackey?

    lackey will cost about 16 million,doc 23 million
    with lackey we keep all our prospects that we can use to get a lf,cf,rf,pitching.

    doc over lackey.we are talking about an earned run over 9 innings every 5 days

    if i am giving my best prospects up it is for kf,jj,etc not a 33 year old pitcher that will cost 23 million a year

  68. CR9 December 3rd, 2009 at 10:08 am

    I have a great question in regards to payroll and the Yankee tax that we normally pay, that we are paying less of this year due to the new stadium.

    Since the $9 million signing bonus for CC did not count towards payroll, then would we pay luxury tax on it? I do not think so.

    So if I’m correct in my thinking, why not give more players signing bonuses and large ones at that(maybe because it’s not covered by insurance) on long term deals.

    For example, you knew CC was going to be in NY for at least 3 years when you signed him to that contract with the opt out clause.

    Why not give him, of his 63 million due in the first 3 years, a 40 million signing bonus?

    That’s only 23 million that could be counted for luxury tax purposes over the 3 years.

    Make sense?

  69. Corey December 3rd, 2009 at 10:11 am

    Some people really humor me……So trading joba or hughes in a Doc package with some minor leaguers is a bad idea….but trading CANO and joba/hughes + prospects for King Felix is any better?

    Roy may be 32 (Which isnt that old btw we just gave AJ a 5-year deal at the same age), but He’s been just as durable as any of the young ace’s out there. You cant predict injuries…Cano and company can be traded for Felix and then he could need tommy john the same year……and why wait for next year? Next years best pitcher aside from Cliff Lee (Who will probably get an extension with the Phillies) is Roy Halladay.

  70. GreenBeret7 December 3rd, 2009 at 10:12 am

    Why would Seattle have a need for two second basemen? Why would NYY get rid of a defensive gem like Cano that swings a left handed bat like that? In case somebody hasn’t noticed, NYY running a little thin on left handed power bats.

  71. SJ44 December 3rd, 2009 at 10:14 am

    His finger is fine and was fine a month after he was injured.

    He’s not sitting because of his finger. He’s sitting because the league is a tad more competitive than he is ready for at the present time.

    They aren’t “renting” Roy Halladay for one year if they trade for him. They will sign him to a 4 year deal if they acquire him.

    Joba and Phil have had ML success. However, neither guy is Roy Halladay and chances are they never will be.

    If you can deal one of them to get Doc, you do it and the Yankees will if that offer approaches their desk.

  72. sab December 3rd, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Lets also keep in mind that the yankees starting pitching last year remained relatively healthy (wang notwithstanding). Although it would be nice if that happened again in 2010, you would be a little naive to think it could. So lets say both Pettite and AJ (or hughes or Joba or god forbid sabathia)find themselves on the DL for about 3 -4 weeks. You now have Sergio Mitre and Chad Gaudin and Ian Kennedy in the rotaion logging significant starts and innings and /or sucking the life out of the already thin bullpen (if Joba and hughes are starting). Thats 2008 all over again.

    Thats why its imperative to get a Halladay, or Lackey or some other workhorse starter that will help if/when some of the starters get hurt.

    The Yankees got lucky needing only 3 starters for the entire playoffs this past year – if they try to go that route again this coming year the results may not be as positive.

  73. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 10:17 am

    Why would the Yankees trade Cano? That is crazy talk.

  74. Will December 3rd, 2009 at 10:18 am

    Sam,

    CC made $23mn last year too ($14mn salary + $9mn in bonuses). According to Cots, Marte is due the same $4mn. Only Cano ($3mn) and Jeter ($1mn) are due raises. When that is subtracted from the approximately $49mn coming off the books, that leave about $46mn, which is rather substantial flexibility.

  75. Betsy December 3rd, 2009 at 10:21 am

    Sam, I understand that any athlete is one bad injury away from the end of their career, but for the first time, Doc is about to have control of his own career. He still doesn’t have that now even with the NTC because he can not force the Jays to trade him to the Yankees (or the Sox). Even if he rejected every trade to every other team, he still can’t make the Jays agree to a deal with a preferred team. The point is, next year he will have full control of his career – why should he give that up? If he prefers the Yankees or some other East Coast, winning team, then why should he forgo free agency just because he might get hurt? If every player did that, no one would ever explore free agency – they would just re-sign with their current team.

  76. pat December 3rd, 2009 at 10:22 am

    “There have been rumblings (probably started by the comments of Henry) that revenue sharing should be lowered, and luxury tax raised. So, stop penalizing teams for making money, but increase the penalty if you spend “too much” on payroll.”

    I don’t know if that vote is an ownership meeting decision or if it has to be part of a CBA.

    If it’s CBA, why would players vote to put more money in owners pockets and less in theirs?

    If it’s ownership, I would guess more owners benefit from revenue sharing than pay into it so why would they vote YES. The small market teams would need to fill their stadiums to make revenues instead of living on the MLB workfare system.

  77. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 10:24 am

    hughes & joba have ml experience

    it is not like they never played in the majors

    i realize that most prospects don’t make it but hughes,joba,montero & ajax can also be real good

    every player was a prospect at one time

    if i can get doc with joba & keep hughes & montero i might do it

    not sure about ajax.i would have to talk to scouts

    but if it costs joba,ajax & montero i hang the phone up

    tough call

    we waited for fa pitchers & kept our prospects & it worked.

    now we wan’t to change the way we do business?

    i just think we are better paying lackey 7 million dollars less a year & we can still use our prospects to trade for a cheaper more cost controlled pitcher or position player

    we are light years better signing lackey & trading joba with some prospects for josh johnson or someone similar or a position player

  78. Betsy December 3rd, 2009 at 10:25 am

    Can anyone summarize that Baseball Digest article for me? Thanks!

    I’ve no idea if AJ is talking to Doc, but AJ might need to talk to Hal as Hal is the one who is insisting on lowering the payroll. If George were running the team, I would say that that a deal would likely get done (assuming that the Jays don’t demand an unreasonable package). However, Hal is made of different stuff. Of course he wants to win, but he is more of a business man than George in the sense that he actually cares about a budget.

  79. Doreen December 3rd, 2009 at 10:29 am

    pat -

    I suppose it only makes sense if the luxury tax is then used the same way revenue sharing now is. Just guessing.

    Perhaps no changes are going to be made. This is all a knee-jerk reaction the Yankees’ 2008 spending successfull spending spree.

    I think more could be accomplished by simply making sure that the teams who benefit from other teams’ financial success through whatever gimmick are made accountable for that money.

  80. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 10:29 am

    does anybody think that era for pitchers have gone down since drug testing got stricter?

  81. Paco Dooley December 3rd, 2009 at 10:30 am

    Sam Borden wrote: ” I’ve got to go teach”

    I didn’t know Sam teaches – I’m curious what and where (he sounds like me, as a university professor always telling people I have to go run to teach…)

  82. Erin December 3rd, 2009 at 10:31 am

    There’s one part of the Feinsand article about AJ recruting Hallady that confused me:

    “Just as Halladay served as a mentor to Burnett during their years together, his presence could have the same impact on Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes.”

    Wouldn’t one of the two be gone? Who are they giving up if both Joba and Phil are still around?

  83. Phil December 3rd, 2009 at 10:32 am

    Montero raked in the same league last year. Amazing that it got so much more competitive this year…

  84. Erin December 3rd, 2009 at 10:33 am

    Paco Dooley
    December 3rd, 2009 at 10:30 am
    Sam Borden wrote: ” I’ve got to go teach”

    I didn’t know Sam teaches – I’m curious what and where

    *****************
    I was wondering the same thing

  85. Tigers Wood December 3rd, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Oh boy.

    The Tiger freak continues.

    Mistress #1 will hold a big press conference today (2:30 PM EST) with big mouth Gloria Allred.

    http://www.tmz.com/2009/12/03/.....d-for-him/

    Tiger, tiger, tiger — this is what you get for not using call-girls.

  86. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 10:34 am

    i am all for doc as long as it does not hurt us from upgrading lf,cf,dh wich i think it will

    of course we are better with him minus joba,ajax,montero right now but who knows going forward

    if joba starts putting up a 3.5 era & montero turns into pujols lite who knows.

    we can only go by what we have in front of us & scouts opinions
    & make the best call

    i think cashman is very smart.a lot smarter than he gets credit for

    don’t be suprised if he pulls off a nice deal

  87. Tigers Wood December 3rd, 2009 at 10:39 am

    Man, Tiger was INSANE:

    Less than an hour before Tiger’s accident, Rachel and Tiger were texting each other. Elin confronted Tiger and asked whom he was texting. She grabbed the phone and we’re told she called Rachel to confront her. According to sources, Tiger and Elin began arguing and the phone broke in the process.

    We’re also told there was damage as a result of the altercation in the vestibule area of Tiger’s home — damage that cannot be easily repaired, and that is why Tiger would not let police come in.

    You NEVER text your mistress while the wifey is around — NEVER. Nah, you wait for her to go to sleep.

  88. Jerkface December 3rd, 2009 at 10:43 am

    Placido Polanco apparently close to signing 3 year/18 million dollar deal with the Phillies to play 3rd base with a mutual 4th year option.

    Phillies have to have the luckiest GM to keep making these kinds of boneheaded signings and not crash horribly.

  89. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 10:44 am

    tiger is so stupid

    he blew it

    there is no possible way to keep this a secret in this technological world

    i heard they revised the pre nup

    a way to satisfy the wife

    he probably said i’m sorry,i’ll never do it again,we will get counselling & i will re-do the pre nup so you get more if i do it again.

    you just can’t be that famous & married & do something that stupid

    man is jeter a genious

  90. Tigers Wood December 3rd, 2009 at 10:46 am

    Wow!

    According to the NY Post, Tiger wife knocked a couple of his teeth out!

    http://www.newseum.org/media/d.....NY_NYP.jpg

  91. Chris NY December 3rd, 2009 at 10:46 am

    “But none of those pitchers cost the Yankees assets like Joba, Hughes, or Montero.”

    Maybe not prospects like those 3, but to get Clemens we had to give up Wells… who was a proven ML pitcher (and WS Champion), certainly as good or better an asset as Joba, Hughes, Montero (depending on what package it takes exactly).

    These rumored requirements in terms of players to Toronto are just like the Santana deal. The Twins wanted the world, NY nor Boston wouldn’t give it to them, and they got much, much less from the Mets in the end. Rumors are rumors and chances are Toronto may have learned from the Twins blunder and will get more than the Twins got for Santana, but far less than the rumors indicate they require as of now….

    Time will tell I guess. They did seem blow their chances with Philly last year by asking for too much, maybe they’ve learned from that as well.

  92. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 10:49 am

    Placido Polanco & feliz their previous 3rd baseman put up similar numbers.

    similar average,obp,slg,ops

    polanco maybe a tad better numbers

  93. Chris NY December 3rd, 2009 at 10:50 am

    ***NY nor Boston WOULD give it to them***

  94. Evan December 3rd, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Tiger’s problem is he married a women who was too good looking.

    He should have married an average looking woman, someone who would be forced to tolerate his extracurricular activities. Either that, or he should have married a bisexual, someone who would welcome an extra partner in bed.

  95. Jerkface December 3rd, 2009 at 10:54 am

    Feliz vs Polanco offensively isnt going to favor feliz. Polanco will get on base more, hit for a higher average, and a little less power.

    But defensively you have no idea what they will get from Polanco at third. He hasnt played there seriously in 5 or 6 years.

    With Feliz or Adrian Beltre on the market as super premium defenders at third, it makes little sense to sign Polanco to such a long deal for that money.

  96. Chris NY December 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 am

    “we waited for fa pitchers & kept our prospects & it worked.

    now we wan’t to change the way we do business?”

    I don’t think it’s a matter of changing how we do business at all, necessarily. I don’t see Cash sending more than 1 of Joba/Hughes/Montero/Ajax. I don’t know what went on behind the scenes with the Santana deal, but reports were that we walked away before the price got down to what the Mets paid. I have to think if the price they paid were offered to us, Santana would be a Yankee.

    I don’t think it’s any different here. If the price comes down to a more reasonable package (and “reasonable could and probably should be at least a bit higher for Halladay than Santana), Cash does it. If it stays at the, give me all your women and children, then he doesn’t….

    We only walked from Santana because the price was TOO high in terms of prospects and money, not because it was going to take both, just too much of both.

  97. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 am

    Tiger’s problem is he married too young and wasn’t done sowing his oats.

  98. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 am

    Yeah it’s kind of absurd to say Winter Ball is too competitive for Montero. He’s not playing but don’t make like you know WHY he isn’t playing. He destroyed AA, I think he could handle winter ball given the chance.

    Once again I’ll say, even if the deal was Joba for Halladay straight up, I wouldn’t make it. Is the difference in Joba and Halladay really worth 20+ million per year for 5 years?

  99. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 10:57 am

    i think we get doc

    i heard cash talks a lot to the toronto gm

    i believe it will be for joba & 2 or 3 others

    not sure if ajax will be in it but pretty sure it won’t be joba,ajax & montero

    maybe joba,ajax & a throw in

    i would not do it because i think we are a better team with lackey & all of our prospects that at any time we can use for another pitcher(s) or position players & the extra 7 million or so in our pockets

    or wait for next years fa or trade for a younger pitcher

    we are talking about losing joba,some other prospects & about an extra 7 million a year for an earned run over 9 innings every 5 days

    am i missing something?

  100. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 10:58 am

    There is a major question whether Joba will ever be the pitcher that Halladay is today and will be for the next 3-4 years.

  101. CR9 December 3rd, 2009 at 10:59 am

    Sam or Chad or anyone, can you answer my previous question?

    Also, in what world, and in this economy no less, how is Placido Polanco worth 6 million a year.

  102. Jerkface December 3rd, 2009 at 10:59 am

    The yankees cannot force the winter ball org he is playing for to play him, so the coach is going with a different catcher. That guy is probably caught up in the SSS struggle that Montero was going through. For a short season, if you are there to win and not develop another organizations prospects, you’d probably play the hot hand.

    Nothing to do with competition or being overmatched

  103. Gmarchesej(Yanks and More) December 3rd, 2009 at 11:00 am

    I am torn on this,the Yankees do need more pitching and I think it would be nice to have at least one more pitcher, the ideal situation would be for Wang to come back and be pretty close to what he used to be and then Joba or Phil as the 5th starter with the other in the bullpen. I do also think though now is the time to try and go with Joba and Phil in the rotation and have Kennedy, Mitre, Gaudin as backups. The Yankees still have a great lineup and are top heavy with the pitching. Joba really wasn’t a bad starter last year, if you remember when he really struggled is when they started talking about the innings limit and then only letting him pitch a couple of innings.

  104. Doreen December 3rd, 2009 at 11:00 am

    No, what Tiger should have done was not cheat at all, or at the very least he should have been discreet, not sending text messages and such. He wanted to be caught.

  105. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 11:00 am

    “Also, in what world, and in this economy no less, how is Placido Polanco worth 6 million a year.”

    It’s the Boras “one dumb team/owner” syndrome which is what he’s hoping for with Damon.

  106. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 11:03 am

    it is not just about comparing joba to doc

    are we better trading for doc or signing lackey for 7 million a year less & then trading joba with some prospects for josh johnson

    now we would have lackey & jj for about the same money,maybe a little more.

    just using the above as an example if it could be done

    or just waiting for next years fa pitchers

    i think king felix is a fa next year

  107. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 11:03 am

    “No, what Tiger should have done was not cheat at all, or at the very least he should have been discreet, not sending text messages and such. He wanted to be caught.”

    I firmly believe that most iconic athletes like Tiger and Arod should not be married until they’re near the end of their careers or have retired. There are too many distractions, temptations and plain selfishness for these type of athletes to remain faithful to one woman while in their 20s and early 30s.

  108. 86w183 December 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 am

    As I understand the luxury tax rules signing bonuses are spread out over the length of the contract as are buyout clauses.

    Sabathia signed seven year contract but since it has an out after three years the signing bonus would be spread out over those three years. He was paid $ 9 Million in bonuses with a salary of $ 14 Million last year and $ 23 Million the next two.

    Thus in reality he earned $ 23 Million a year, but for luxury tax calculations it’s $ 17, $ 26, $ 26. So while his earnings don’t go up this year, his “cost” goes up due to the $ 3.6 Million additional luxury taxes (40 % of $ 9 M).

    Unless I’m wrong, of course.

  109. Evan December 3rd, 2009 at 11:05 am

    Doreen December 3rd, 2009 at 11:00 am

    No, what Tiger should have done was not cheat at all, or at the very least he should have been discreet, not sending text messages and such. He wanted to be caught.
    ==============================================

    Not cheat at all?!? Please. He’s a guy. Hate to tell you this, Santa doesn’t exist.

    As for being discreet, that’s why God invented call-girls. :lol:

  110. Doreen December 3rd, 2009 at 11:05 am

    Evan -

    I seriously hope that your last post was tongue in cheek. Because if it wasn’t, I just don’t even know where to begin.

    With the premise that somehow women who don’t quality as being pretty enough or hot enough or whatever term you want to use should somehow be ‘grateful’ for whatever she gets from a marriage to a man?

  111. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 11:05 am

    “are we better trading for doc or signing lackey for 7 million a year less & then trading joba with some prospects for josh johnson”

    First off, I think Lackey gets 17-18M per season. Secondly, Josh Johnson isn’t available and has been stated repeatedly by Marlins executives and insiders.

  112. Erin December 3rd, 2009 at 11:05 am

    Crawdaddy
    December 3rd, 2009 at 11:03 am
    I firmly believe that most iconic athletes like Tiger and Arod should not be married until they’re near the end of their careers or have retired. There are too many distractions, temptations and plain selfishness for these type of athletes to remain faithful to one woman while in their 20s and early 30s.

    *******************
    Jeter looks like a genius, doesn’t he? ;)

  113. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Tiger should have asked himself WWJD (what would Jeter do)

  114. champ809 December 3rd, 2009 at 11:10 am

    most of you guys have a “fantasy baseball” GM mentality and just refuse to understand that roster constuction on the ML level is a complex recipe of many factors beyond just Halladay’s an ace lets get him!

    SJ44

    please enough with the can’t miss prospect garbage trying to talk down the obvious talent that Montero is. You don’t sound MORE knowledgeable because of it actually quite the opposite you come off as more uninformed. There are many prospects coming up through the ranks that get overhyped,it’s true.
    However there are a select group of players that are “once in a generation” talents that look totally different to the eye the minute that you see them. The ARods,Manny Ramirezs,Griffeys,Bonds,Jeters and Mantles and Dimaggios who when seen by guys who’ve spent a lifetime in the game on first sight say “this kid is going to be one of the great ones!”….

    That’s who Montero the hitter is….get over yourself and deal with it!

    You don’t trade that from your org for a mid thirties pitcher who is in his decline years and at best may give you 4 all star years for 100mm+ in salary when this kid may give you 10-15 years of all star performance for the same capital investment.

    When you consider also that your postion players are aging and also in their decline phase and the strength of your org is the young high end arms and the dearth are major league ready or near major league ready position players then that would have to give you even greater pause to do a deal sending say Joba/Montero for Halladay and a 100mm extension.

  115. squidward December 3rd, 2009 at 11:10 am

    “does anybody think that era for pitchers have gone down since drug testing got stricter?”

    Not much.

    AL average ERA since 2000:

    2000: 4.92
    2001: 4.41
    2002: 4.47
    2003: 4.53
    2004: 4.64
    2005: 4.36
    2006: 4.56
    2007: 4.52
    2008: 4.36
    2009: 4.46

    1998, 1999 and 2000 were all 5.00 or better.

  116. Doreen December 3rd, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Evan -

    Contrary to what you may think, NOT all men cheat. Some have consciences, some are merely too busy. Some actually love their wives and families and don’t want to jeopardize that.

    And to think that cheating with a call girl somehow doesn’t count because, basically, they’re not sentimental about the situation, come off it. A call girl who is hired by Tiger Woods would be running, not walking to the nearest tabloid.

    How about we stop giving people a pass on these types of things because they can hit a golf ball or complete a forward pass or strike out a zillion people; or because they make a ton of money and have a ton of celebrity (I include men and women here). How about we stop justifying and tolerating these things on such a grand scale that multiple divorces and marriage and all that goes with that is okay as long as their is a pre-nup? How about people who decide to get married do so knowing that it’s not just “going steady” and it’s not always a bed of roses – that it’s hard work and worth it if you’re true to yourself.

    And if you’re not the kind who should be married, if you have wanderlust or are a commitment-phobe, then just DON’T GET MARRIED. It’s not a recreational sport.

    I sincerely hope you are not involved with any women, Evan. Or men. Whatever.

  117. Evan December 3rd, 2009 at 11:15 am

    Doreen December 3rd, 2009 at 11:05 am

    With the premise that somehow women who don’t quality as being pretty enough or hot enough or whatever term you want to use should somehow be ‘grateful’ for whatever she gets from a marriage to a man?
    ============================

    But it’s true. I’m only dealing with reality. An average looking girl will tolerate more because she has less options. Tiger’s wife is so hot its hard to photograph her because the film melts. Because she has so many options available she isn’t gonna take any craap.

  118. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 11:15 am

    Also, in what world, and in this economy no less, how is Placido Polanco worth 6 million a year.

    Agreed – especially given sheer quantity of 3b available this winter. I thought Adrian Beltre would have been a perfect fit here for so many reasons (great glove, rh power on a mostly lh team). This signing just makes no sense.

  119. Noreaster December 3rd, 2009 at 11:16 am

    Wow, Evan, as a guy I’ve got to say grow up! If you get married and say those vows you don’t cheat. It’s not like we all don’t get tempted from time to time, but being an adult is saying no. Tigers problem is that he is a self centered jerk who put his own wants in front of his family’s…

  120. pat December 3rd, 2009 at 11:16 am

    Doreen

    Very few men want to get caught. Successful shadiness leads to arrogance. Arrogance leads to getting caught.

  121. Just call me Mr. Clutch December 3rd, 2009 at 11:16 am

    Josh Johnson doesn’t need to be traded at this time. They still have him under control for a number of season yet. The only reason he was brought up as a trade candidate was because he wasn’t signing a long term contract with the Marlins. I can’t blame him because the Marlins never hold on to talent long term.

    The Marlins would have to be blown away with an offer for them to trade him.

    Felix has a couple more seasons with the Mariners. He isn’t going anywhere, and they might sign him to a longer deal.

    Lackey will get a decent deal.

    Saying that Halladay is just an earned run a week is undervaluing what else he brings with him. AJ had a great season which he credited working with Doc for. If Halladay comes to wear the pinstripes it may help AJ and Hughes to be better.

    I am not advocating for or against Halladay, but there are definite pluses to getting him that you don’t get with other pitchers.

  122. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 11:16 am

    Crawdaddy
    December 3rd, 2009 at 11:05 am
    “are we better trading for doc or signing lackey for 7 million a year less & then trading joba with some prospects for josh johnson”

    First off, I think Lackey gets 17-18M per season. Secondly, Josh Johnson isn’t available and has been stated repeatedly by Marlins executives and insiders.

    ————————————-

    i was talking about the idea along those lines

  123. bru December 3rd, 2009 at 11:17 am

    & nobody knows who is really available until you try

  124. 86w183 December 3rd, 2009 at 11:17 am

    Evan —-

    You are an embarrassment to the species.

    Not every man is a philandering scumbag. All spouses, thin and fat, homely and gorgeous are entitled to loyalty and fidelity.

    Grow up.

  125. Evan December 3rd, 2009 at 11:17 am

    Doreen December 3rd, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Evan -

    Contrary to what you may think, NOT all men cheat. Some have consciences, some are merely too busy. Some actually love their wives and families and don’t want to jeopardize that.
    ================================

    Donald Trump, ARod, and Rudy Giulliani are laughing their heads off at that sentimentality.

  126. Sal December 3rd, 2009 at 11:18 am

    Yankees have a ton of trade pieces/chips to make any deal. Pretty impressive.

  127. Noreaster December 3rd, 2009 at 11:20 am

    Evan, ARod will have someone else raising his kids, I don’t think that is anything to look up to…

  128. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Evan -

    That could be among one of the dumber posts I’ve read on this subject.

    It isn’t a matter of how the woman looks, it’s more about the level of pride she has in herself. A woman, average looking or not, who has pride in herself will say, “hell with this, get me a lawyer” and try to take the guy for all she can and then walk. And at the same time there are super hot doormats.

    Judging by the fact that Tiger’s wife took a golf club to his car and can bank 300 mil in the divorce I would think super hot or not, she’s got pride and options.

  129. Doreen December 3rd, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Evan -

    Just wow. How sad for you.

  130. Laruen December 3rd, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Gee Doreen, I thought you were a fan of “Mad Men”.

    Unfortunately, yes, all men cheat. I say that as women in her late 30s.

  131. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 11:22 am

    Bru,

    I don’t know what the Yankee ownership and Cashman will decide, but it’s going to come down to what Toronto wants in return as well as Halladay’s asking price. Also, I do wonder if the Yankees feel the same way about Joba and Hughes today as they did after the 2007 season? In othewords, have they soured on either guy and if so that might be a determining factor in this Halladay decision.

  132. pat December 3rd, 2009 at 11:22 am

    “Tiger should have asked himself WWJD (what would Jeter do)”

    Be careful. Appreciate what these guys do in their arena of play and don’t pretend to know who they are outside of it.

    Expecting predictable behavior from people, especially those you don’t know, is setting yourself up for disappointment because humans have foibles.

  133. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 11:24 am

    “Evan, ARod will have someone else raising his kids, I don’t think that is anything to look up to…”

    I thought Arod has joint custody or at the very least very liberal custody privileges.

  134. Noreaster December 3rd, 2009 at 11:24 am

    No Laruen, all men don’t cheat…

  135. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 11:25 am

    Donald Trump, ARod, and Rudy Giulliani are laughing their heads off at that sentimentality.

    Actually Rudy for certain is not – his infidelity cost him a great deal of his political future. He’s done well for himself, but his aspirations of getting to the White House were trashed.

    As Noreaster said, someone else is raising Alex’s little girl – not sure he’s all that thrilled about that.

    Spitzer cheated his way out of Albany

  136. Noreaster December 3rd, 2009 at 11:25 am

    Joint custody or at the very least very liberal custody privileges is hardly a full time father…and what did he just teach his children?

  137. Toe December 3rd, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Jeter should write a play book, how not to get into trouble. He’s done great so far in a big fish bowl.

  138. squidward December 3rd, 2009 at 11:26 am

    “But it’s true. I’m only dealing with reality. An average looking girl will tolerate more because she has less options.”

    Dude! Thanks for explaining this. Here I was stupidly thinking that a woman’s pride, intellect and sense of self would best define exactly her level of tolerance. And all along it was looks. I’ll be damned.

  139. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Pat
    I was just kidding, I am sure Jeter is far from perfect, much as we would like to think otherwise :)

  140. Rishi December 3rd, 2009 at 11:27 am

    not sure if this was posted yesterday (for some reason been crazy busy since the season ended):

    http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ise-20637/

    “Of course, when the topic of starting pitching arose, Francessa put back on his bullheaded attitude regarding Joba Chamberlain. He’s a born reliever, yada yada yada. Cashman explained the situation as he always does: it’s much harder to find a starter than a reliever, when you find a good starter on the free agent market he’ll cost you a lot of money, and it’s easier to move a starter to the bullpen if necessary. Francessa kept interrupting and misunderstanding. He said no fewer than five times that it was a “purely economical issue,” as if it were some great revelation. Of course, it’s not “purely” an economical issue, though economics do play a prominent role. It’s also about maximizing the value of each player, but Cashman couldn’t get in a word edgewise to explain that.”

    Lots of other good stuff in there, too

  141. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 11:27 am

    Lauren,

    No we don’t – I say that as a man in his early 30′s who is not only engaged but knows several married couples where both parties are faithful.

  142. Erin December 3rd, 2009 at 11:27 am

    Evan
    December 3rd, 2009 at 11:15 am

    But it’s true. I’m only dealing with reality. An average looking girl will tolerate more because she has less options.
    *********************
    Seriously? Evan, that is incredibly offensive and not even close to the truth. If you honestly believe this, I feel sorry for you.

  143. Noreaster December 3rd, 2009 at 11:27 am

    anyway, back to baseball…what’s the over/under on the Yankees getting anything done by the end of the winter meetings?

  144. Evan December 3rd, 2009 at 11:29 am

    Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 11:21 am

    It isn’t a matter of how the woman looks, it’s more about the level of pride she has in herself.
    =========================================

    All other things being equal, a women who looks great has more confidence than someone who’s frumpy looking. That’s just facts.

    I mean Christy Brinkley will always have more pride/confidence than a frumpy hedge fund trader at Citicorp.

  145. Tala08 December 3rd, 2009 at 11:30 am

    Amen pat. Putting people on pedestals, especially when comparing them to others who have made mistakes, is unnecessary.

  146. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 11:30 am

    “Joint custody or at the very least very liberal custody privileges is hardly a full time father…and what did he just teach his children?”

    Don’t get married until you’re ready to commit to only this one person.

  147. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 11:32 am

    All other things being equal, a women who looks great has more confidence than someone who’s frumpy looking. That’s just facts.

    I mean Christy Brinkley will always have more pride/confidence than a frumpy hedge fund trader at Citicorp.
    —————————-
    You couldn’t be more wrong. I know beautiful women who put up with a lot of crap because they worry that their looks are all they have. They always end up with guys who treat them badly and they put up with it because that’s just how sad they are. On the other hand I know “frumpy” looking women who would never ever tolerate their boyfriend or husband disrespecting them even close to as much as Tiger has disrespected his wife.

    You’re a disgrace to the race man.

  148. Chris NY December 3rd, 2009 at 11:33 am

    “Donald Trump, ARod, and Rudy Giulliani are laughing their heads off at that sentimentality.”

    Didn’t realize there were only 3 men in the entire world…

  149. Rishi December 3rd, 2009 at 11:34 am

    if you stop responding (and post about other stuff) the conversation usually dies

  150. Doreen December 3rd, 2009 at 11:34 am

    pat -

    I never thought about it that way. I think you are correct.

    Evan -

    Because Donald Trump, ARod and Rudy Giuliani and their ilk are such excellent role models and what we would want our sons to aspire to be in terms of how they treat women. Sheesh.

  151. Chris NY December 3rd, 2009 at 11:35 am

    “All other things being equal, a women who looks great has more confidence than someone who’s frumpy looking. That’s just facts.”

    You obviously don’t know many good looking women. For every woman walking around with her nose in the air because she’s “so hot,” there’s at least 1 equally hot and completely insecure.

  152. squidward December 3rd, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Evan’s 2nd from the left on the Evolution of Man chart.

  153. Toe December 3rd, 2009 at 11:36 am

    what about bill and hill clinton ?

  154. Chris NY December 3rd, 2009 at 11:36 am

    Good point, Rishi….

  155. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 11:37 am

    anyway, back to baseball…what’s the over/under on the Yankees getting anything done by the end of the winter meetings?

    It’s possible, but I doubt it – Cashman likes to sit back and take his time.

    One thing I thought of yesterday that could makes sense would be for the Yankees to work a deal with the Nationals for Adam Dunn. The Big Donkey would be a perfect fit for the Yankees at DH and his 1 year $12 mil salary would easily fit within their budget. They could offer the Nats a package of Melky or Gardner along with an infield prospect and minor league pitcher and I think the Nats would jump at the deal.

    The new regime in Washington knows that Dunn has no real place there and I think they would be happy to move him.

  156. Evan December 3rd, 2009 at 11:39 am

    squidward December 3rd, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Here I was stupidly thinking that a woman’s pride, intellect and sense of self would best define exactly her level of tolerance. And all along it was looks. I’ll be damned.

    =====================================================

    It’s not just women, it’s universal — it includes men as well.

    I very handsome man will have more confidence/pride (all things being equal) than an average looking man who’s overweight. Where do you think George Clooney’s swagger comes from — it’s certainly not from his acting ability. I mean who has more cool, cool confidence Clooney or a super successful director like Ron Howard? Looks plays a role.

  157. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 3rd, 2009 at 11:39 am

    wow

  158. Erin December 3rd, 2009 at 11:39 am

    Rishi
    December 3rd, 2009 at 11:34 am
    if you stop responding (and post about other stuff) the conversation usually dies

    *********************
    Rishi, excellent point :)

  159. Rishi December 3rd, 2009 at 11:40 am

    REPOST:

    Rishi
    December 3rd, 2009 at 11:27 am
    not sure if this was posted yesterday (for some reason been crazy busy since the season ended):

    http://riveraveblues.com/2009/…..ise-20637/

    “Of course, when the topic of starting pitching arose, Francessa put back on his bullheaded attitude regarding Joba Chamberlain. He’s a born reliever, yada yada yada. Cashman explained the situation as he always does: it’s much harder to find a starter than a reliever, when you find a good starter on the free agent market he’ll cost you a lot of money, and it’s easier to move a starter to the bullpen if necessary. Francessa kept interrupting and misunderstanding. He said no fewer than five times that it was a “purely economical issue,” as if it were some great revelation. Of course, it’s not “purely” an economical issue, though economics do play a prominent role. It’s also about maximizing the value of each player, but Cashman couldn’t get in a word edgewise to explain that.”

    Lots of other good stuff in there, too

  160. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 11:47 am

    Interesting post Rishi. I think Joba as starter is more valuable than Joba as reliever. At least he should get the opportunity to start. He can always be moved to the bull pen later if necessary.

  161. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 11:47 am

    Rishi,

    Saw that yesterday about the Cashman stuff with Francesa – I take it all with a grain of salt. Brian is very good at misdirection and as we learned last year, what he says isn’t always what he’s going to do.

  162. Wave Your Hat December 3rd, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Last year, looking at the Yanks’ budget on Cot’s convinced me the Yanks would chase and sign Tex.

    This year, I don’t think focusing on the budget will tell you so clearly what the Yanks plan to do.

    First, it’s clear that they can’t replace Wang and maintain an offense as potent as the 2009 offense for under $200MM, even if they don’t sign Doc. Despite all the money coming off the books, replacing those 52 HRs and 172 RBIs from Damon and Matsui will cost big bucks. Just keeping Andy will cost at least $10MM, and even just signing a pitcher for the 3 or 4 spot in the rotation will put them back up to the $205-$210MM salary range they were in during 2009.

    If they sign Doc and maintian the offense, the overall budget will be well in excess of $210MM.

    If they sign Doc to an extension, keep in mind that the Yanks already have four long term contracts in play. In 2013, Tex, ARod, CC and AJ will cost them $93MM. Add a $20MM deal for Doc (probably more), and 5 aging guys will cost them $113MM. That’s a huge nut to overcome when you need another 20 players.

    Also, keep in mind the basic agreement will expire after 2011. The Yanks right now don’t know how the luxury tax will be structured, and can’t be positive about retaining the deduction for construction bond interest in calculating revenue sharing.

    Since the Yanks don’t need to make risky or long term moves in 2010 to maintain their overall performance level, I suspect they may be a little more cautious this off-season than many think.

  163. Neil B. December 3rd, 2009 at 11:49 am

    I’m honestly surprised that so many people on this forum would be ready to do a deal for Halladay (with the assumption that it would take Joba or Phil, Montero [or at least AJax], and a lesser propsect). Here’s why I think Cash definitely won’t pull the trigger in the end:

    1. Financial flexibility: The Yankees had none of it in the 2000s. When they *finally* got it back after the fall of 2008, they went out and made smart investments, signing a 28-year-old offensive and defensive stud at first and a 28-year-old durable ace. Both of these guys should be solid for at least the first 5 years of their contracts. The Burnett signing is more risky given his injury history and just the fact that he isn’t a 16.5 million/yr pitcher, but I think Cash decided in the end that the Yankees had a prime chance to sign a No. 2 pitcher without any loss of talent – and with few rival bidders to inflate the price any more – and at least it paid off in year 1.

    But all that spending erased the newfound financial flexibility, and now the Yankees have to be careful not to get themselves in the same situation they were in during the 2000s. Sam poses an excellent point about 2013, when all of these contracts will still be on the Yankee ledgers:
    1. 36-year-old Halladay, projected $23M
    2. 33-year-old Sabathia, $24M
    3. 36-year-old Burnett, $16.5M
    4. 38-year-old Jeter, projected $15-18M??
    5. 37-year-old A-Rod, $29M
    6. 33-year-old Teixeira, $23M

    That’s over $130M going to six players, with only the Burnett contract coming off the books after the season. Especially with a new CBA looming in the near future, the Yankees really need to be looking to keep their payroll around the $200M mark in order to make sure they have a financial model they can sustain, and signing the rest of their roster for under $70M is going to be hard to do given Yankee standards.

    2. Cost-controlled players: This pretty much goes hand-in-hand with #1, but one of the best ways to maintain financial flexibility is with prospects, and Phil, Joba, AJax, and Montero could give the Yankees cheap production going forward for years to come. Obviously, there’s no guarantees, but with AJax filling a position of need (the Yankees could use an offensive upgrade at CF) and the same for Montero (although his chances of being a catcher in the majors are 50/50 at this point), those are clearly guys the Yankees want to hold onto.

    3. Looming free agents: The other thing about having financial flexibility is that the Yankees need to think about guys coming into free agency that they want to make serious runs at. I’m talking chiefly about Joe Mauer – who admittedly is more than likely staying in Minnesota, but the Yankees must absolutely have the funds available if he ends up hitting free agency – and Carl Crawford, who the Rays probably realize they can’t keep (and are already grooming Desmond Jennings to replace him). CC is young, a defensive stud, an offensive sparkplug, and basically is all of the things Tex was when the Yankees signed him – a fantastic long-term financial investment. The Yankees really need to be targeting him as an LF cornerstone next summer, and in that vein they should shy away from making another huge payroll commitment before then.

  164. sab December 3rd, 2009 at 11:50 am

    Crawdaddy
    December 3rd, 2009 at 11:00 am
    “Also, in what world, and in this economy no less, how is Placido Polanco worth 6 million a year.”

    It’s the Boras “one dumb team/owner” syndrome which is what he’s hoping for with Damon.
    —————————————————-
    and thats why they should have offered arbitration to damon…

  165. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 11:55 am

    “and thats why they should have offered arbitration to damon…”

    Cashman knows what he’s doing and he viewed the risk as too great which is why he didn’t offer arbitration.

  166. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 11:56 am

    and thats why they should have offered arbitration to damon…

    Apples vs. Goat Milk

    Damon would have accepted arbitration if the Yankees offered it. He wants to stay in NY and if he could get a 1 year deal for between $15-$19 mil I think he would take it in a second.

  167. sab December 3rd, 2009 at 11:59 am

    One thing I thought of yesterday that could makes sense would be for the Yankees to work a deal with the Nationals for Adam Dunn. The Big Donkey would be a perfect fit for the Yankees at DH and his 1 year $12 mil salary would easily fit within their budget.
    ——————————————————–
    at 12 mil for 1 year why not just sign matsui – they are equally inept in the outfield…and sui strikes out much less..

  168. jpb1973 December 3rd, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Does anyone think that a combination of Juan Miranda (against LH’ers) and Jorge Vazquez (against RH’ers) would be a reasonabale combination for the Yankees at DH? If so, they don’t cost much and they Yankees could easily use some $$$ to resign Petitte and Damon (LF) and trade for Halladay.

  169. Noreaster December 3rd, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Chip. Damon on today’s market is only worth 18/19 million for 2 years. So I guess that’s why arbitration wasn’t offered…

    Another thought on Joba. By the end of the World Series, he was the number 3 option in the pen. We all love Mo and feel he will be around forever, but the guy is 40 years old. So why would you trade a stud out of your pen when you have an old closer? Joba isn’t going anywhere.

  170. tampayank December 3rd, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    I miss baseball season:(
    my college football team is mid major and I only follow NFL for fantasy football purposes

  171. Boogie Down- Hot Stove December 3rd, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Look at next years Free Agents that could be available:

    Cliff Lee, Carl Crawford, Joe Mauer, & Brandon Webb, to name some of the top. I would much rather wait a year, save the money & prospects, and sign one or two of these guys.

  172. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    I think Joba should have another chance as a starter, coming to spring training in better shape and w/ no innings limit…that being said, he sure looked like the old Joba when he came out of the pen. Either way, he is a young pitcher w/ a lot of potential, as is Phil. if Cash didn’t want to trade his young guns for Santana, why would he want to for Halladay?

  173. Mike RI December 3rd, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    Can we please drop Joe Mauers name off next years list . he’ll be a Twin for sure . And as a Yankee fan i hope he does stay in Minnesota,

  174. Mike RI December 3rd, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    Did anyone see on MLBTRADERUMORS.COM

    The Mets asked for Matsui’s physicall work ??

  175. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    at 12 mil for 1 year why not just sign matsui – they are equally inept in the outfield…and sui strikes out much less..

    Two reasons:

    1. Dunn is going to give the Yankees vastly more production than Matsui

    2. While Dunn will never be considered a good outfielder he, unlike Matsui, can play the OF without getting hurt. I like Matsui, I really do – but Girardi knows he can’t put him in LF, Matsui’s knees can’t take it. Heck the guy runs out a double and he’s limping for the next three days.

  176. SJ44 December 3rd, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    Champ,

    it may be time for you to get a clue.

    Are you seriously comparing Jesus Montero to Arod and Joe D?

    Those guys were in the majors, and productive, at the same age Montero sits on the bench in winter ball.

    Can the “once in a generation” hype.

    It’s not only excessive, given his body of work so far, it’s inaccurate.

    If the kid something Arod/Joe D like, THEN compare him to them.

    Until then, excessively hyping him is comical at best.

  177. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Sab -

    Actually here’s a third reason:

    If the Yankees decide they like a middle of the lineup featuring Tex, Alex and Dunn they can extend Dunn – Matsui’s time is winding down.

    Noreaster –

    I agree – the $15-$19 mil is what he could have gotten if he had gone to arbitration.

  178. Erin December 3rd, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    upstate kate
    December 3rd, 2009 at 12:09 pm
    I think Joba should have another chance as a starter, coming to spring training in better shape and w/ no innings limit…that being said, he sure looked like the old Joba when he came out of the pen. Either way, he is a young pitcher w/ a lot of potential, as is Phil. if Cash didn’t want to trade his young guns for Santana, why would he want to for Halladay?

    *************************
    completely agree.

  179. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    Mike -

    I agree, for the good of baseball in Minny Joe Mauer needs to stay there. Yes, it would be thrilling to think of him on the Yankees but Mauer is that franchise right now. A hometown kid making good hardly ever happens. Let’s just hope that the people running the organization see it that way as well.

  180. CR9 December 3rd, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    Why are you all insulting Evan?

    If there is one thing I gathered from his posts, is that he thinks that’s what reality is.

    He never stated, or at least I did not see it if he did, that he thinks it’s right.

    It’s never right if a man or a woman cheats on the other.

  181. Gene-Paul December 3rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Just to start out, I am a Jays and Sox fan. Just to make everyone aware, to think that you are going to get halladay for JOBA and lesser prospects, or Hughes and lesser prospects, honestly, look at the game today and list 5 pitchers that on any given day can control the pace of the game and work at a comfort level like Roy? Regardless of the awards and everything, Put Roy on a team with more offensive support, he would win over 20 a year. He is the most dominant pitcher in the game. For the topic of injuries and his age, they are a deciding factor. But the Yanks have to focus on what he would do to the Division if he were on the Sox, more offence, better defence. He would be dominating.

    Just to put things to rest. He will be going to the sox as they have offered up Bucholz or Lester, Kelly, Kallish.

    It is a package that Jay’s GM will take. Also it is not Joba or Hughes and propsects, it is JOBA and HUGHES and prospects. But Jays aren’t intersted in Joba, hasn’t really lived up to the hype, and hughes may be a wash.

    Trust me when I say Roy will be in the friendly confines of Fenway come opening day.

  182. Mike RI December 3rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Mark F.

    Girardi doesn’t know who will be manning left field or the designated hitter spot, but unlike last winter, he knows who will occupy the top two spots in his rotation. Still, with Andy Pettitte iffy and the Yankees uncertain about the roles of Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain, Cashman is still searching for arms.

    “We definitely have the top two, and Andy is someone we’re very interested in, but we still have to fill spots in the rotation,” said Girardi, who was at the Waldorf-Astoria yesterday to receive the March of Dimes Sportsman of the Year award. “We still consider (Hughes and Chamberlain) as starters, but their roles could depend on what we do this winter.”

  183. Boogie Down- Hot Stove December 3rd, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Joba & Phil should get their shots in the rotation next year. Maybe Kennedy & Melancon can fill their roles in the pen? But if we can get two homegrown kids to give us 10-12 wins, and 170-200 innings a piece, with Era’s under 4.5, we’re in business.

  184. Mike RI December 3rd, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Giradi’s quote says it all . Its not 100 percent given Hughes and Joba are starters ( or even on the team ) next season.

    I believe an arm will be added .

  185. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    Gene-Paul
    No way are the Sox giving up Lester, what sense would that make? He is their best pitcher. Bucky, at this point in time anyway, is no better than Joba or Hughes. He pitched well against some poor teams for part of a season.

  186. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 3rd, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    Can you all please stop talking about Tiger Woods?

  187. JohnC December 3rd, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    Gene_paul

    No way Theo is going give up Lester. And he will not include Bucholz and Kelly in the same deal. If you’re gonna make things up, try to be a little more realistic ok?

  188. Noreaster December 3rd, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    I agree that Joba and Phil should be starters next year, but you cannot deny that they both look great in the pen. If something were to happen to Mo (knock on wood), Joba would be immediately moved to the pen.

  189. Neil B. December 3rd, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    @ Gene-Paul

    Umm, with all due respect, I’m positive that’s a package the Red Sox have definitely NOT offered. If the Jays could get Lester in *any* package for Halladay, they’d take it in an instant – he’s an established ace who strikes out a ton of guys and is young and cost-controlled for years to come. That would be a fantastic return for Halladay, even if no other prospects were included.

    And if the Red Sox had offered Buchholz + Kelly – the latter being a guy that Theo is super reluctant to give up – I think this deal would have been done already. Don’t get me wrong, I think those two will eventually be the guys that get the deal done, and I agree with you that the Red Sox will nab Halladay when all is said and done, but the Red Sox haven’t offered up that package yet and the Yankees (and whoever else) still have a shot. I just don’t think anything less than Hughes + Montero + a low-level prospect will get it done (this is the Yankees equivalent of Buchholz + Kelly).

  190. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 3rd, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    I think the consoling aspect of this Yankee off season is that we have a much stronger core of players than we did at this time last year.

    We HAD to add pitching and we did. Tex was a great signing (admittedly one I didn’t fully support at the time but now understand the logic behind) because of this year’s weaker FA market, especially at 1B.

    So with that, we have a lot more to work with aside from having to find solutions to the Damon & Matsui losses.

    This is why Halladay, while certainly tempting and definitely a possibility, isn’t AS crucial as it otherwise might be.

    And who are we all kidding…Pettitte will be back.

  191. Erin December 3rd, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    Noreaster
    December 3rd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
    I agree that Joba and Phil should be starters next year, but you cannot deny that they both look great in the pen. If something were to happen to Mo (knock on wood), Joba would be immediately moved to the pen.

    ***************
    It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Joba eventually winds back up in the pen, but I do think he’ll start the year in the rotation

  192. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 3rd, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Noreaster,

    I think that your comment underlines the issue that the Yankees have: WILL Joba and/or Hughes truly pan out to be special front end starters.

    I don’t think anyone can say for sure.

    As Olney wrote this morning, if the Yankees agree that they’re both more likely going to be strong relief pitchers, then using one to acquire Halladay is a no brainer.

  193. Mike RI December 3rd, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    Yes Pettite will be back. but he’s still another year older , and Hughes and Joba are both ? marks.

    I think the Yanks will still land another Arm. Halladay. maybe ??, But i think it will be Sheets

  194. m December 3rd, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Very interesting post, Sam. Just last night I was thinking of posing a question, that now seems quite timely.

    What do you think Roy Halladay would feel comfortable with to extend with the Yankees? Taking all factors into consideration. He’s an ace who deserves ace type money, but on the wrong side of 30. Does $100M/5 years sound about right for both sides? Does anyone else offer him that AAV? (of course he’s going to get 5 years. Lowe got 3? 4?)

    Basically the challenge was to come up with the lowest figure that Roy would accept.

  195. Noreaster December 3rd, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    Based on how Phil and Joba have pitched so far, I’d be surprised if one of them didn’t turn out to be at least a number 2 starter and both seem to be “no brain’ers” for number 3 starters right now. We also know that they both can be studs in the pen. I’d say hold our cards and see what our needs are and how they develop.

  196. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 3rd, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    Mike RI,

    Sheets eh?

    I don’t know about that. Especially if Pettitte is one year older and with Burnett’s history. Seems like a high risk move to me, but I guess at the right price, who knows.

    Harden would seem to be along that same line.

    Obviously they’re both studs when healthy, but they’ve struggled their entire careers to stay healthy.

  197. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 3rd, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    m,

    Did you read Olney’s article this morning? Its a good read.

    Covers Halladay’s likely cost and what the Yankees would be paying AJ, CC, and Doc (if they acquire him) moving forward. The numbers are kind of scary…

  198. Phil December 3rd, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    The Yanks think Montero is their best hitting prospect since Mantle, but I guess that’s immaterial cause they must not have any clues.

  199. Comet December 3rd, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    “Evan
    December 3rd, 2009 at 10:53 am
    Tiger’s problem is he married a women who was too good looking.
    He should have married an average looking woman, someone who would be forced to tolerate his extracurricular activities. Either that, or he should have married a bisexual, someone who would welcome an extra partner in bed.”

    Evan that’s really quite offensive. No man or women should have to “take” their partner having someone on the side. What century do you live in?

  200. m December 3rd, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    Prince,

    No, I didn’t see that. And it’s just as well that I’m not an insider, looking at the figures might make me sick.

    What kind of concessions is Doc willing to make to never, ever have to wear that powder blue uni ever again?

  201. kd December 3rd, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    new post

  202. m December 3rd, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    lol, has anyone seen Steve Phillips’ wife? Elin is gorgeous. There’s no such thing as having a wife that’s too pretty. You’re either a dog or you’re not. Woo! Thanks for the laugh. Is that what you guys were jumping on Evan for?

  203. Gene-Paul December 3rd, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Jays GM asked for Lester or Bucholz as part of the package, never insisted that Lester was there for them to take. Most likely scenario is it will be bucholz, sorry if I confused.

    Sox package is still the best option.

    You guys have a strong staff and expecting too much from Joba or Hughes just might not get you what you need from them.

    If they Jays do deal with the Yanks, I wouldn’t be impressed if Joba and Hughes or one of them was a part of te deal. not impressed with either of them. I think Bucholz is a better pitcher with more talent then either of them.

  204. SJ44 December 3rd, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Who is saying that? Fans? People who run websites?

    Nobody I know from the Yankees has ever called Jesus Montero the best hitting prospect since Mickey Mantle.

    Do they love his potential? Absolutely.

    The best hitting prospect since Mantle? Sorry, nobody with any influence with the Yankees has said that about him.

    All I am saying is, guard against overhyping ANY of these guys.

    Last year, Lars Anderson was the Prospect de Jour with the Red Sox. He was “can’t miss”.

    Now? He’s just a guy.

    I think Jesus Montero has a ton of potential.

    However, before folks start comparing him to guys who were major league all stars at 19-20, take a deep breath, relax, and let the kid develop.

    He’s not anything close to big league ready just yet.

  205. SJ44 December 3rd, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    It doesn’t matter if you aren’t impressed with either Hughes or Chamberlain. Most baseball GM’s are and most would take both guys over Buchholz.

    The Red Sox do not have a single prospect above A ball ready for big league action. The Jays aren’t going to take Single A guys as the cornerstones of a Halladay trade.

    Both Hughes and Chamberlain have also had more major league success, and are younger, than Buchholz.

    If the Yankees put Hughes or Chamberlain, along with Austin Romine for example, in a deal, the Sox have to add more pieces to matchup, since they don’t have prospect for prospect equal talent as the Yankees right now.

    Just because Peter Gammons thinks differently doesn’t make him right.

    At one time, he called Craig Hansen, “the best setup man in the AL”.

    How did that turn out?

  206. Gene-Paul December 3rd, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    SJ44

    Very true about Gammons and Hansen. That is the problem, any trade involving a proven star for prospects is very tricky, every GM wants the best return, but to gamble on guys that have had “limited” success, and to say Joba and Hughes have more than anything then “limited” success is crazy, I haven’t even seen a flash of brillaince from either of them.

    The Jays see the sox and yanks umpteen times a year, I have watched Bucholz and regardless of the age difference between him and Joba and Hughes, I have seen him command the ball, he is going to be a stellar pitcher in the near future. Regardless of what happens, Roy Halladay will be sorely missed by the organization. So they want to make sure they get a king’s ransom for him. Fans are ready to walk away, so unless it is a trade that makes your spine tingle and feel good, it wont happen

  207. GreenBeret7 December 3rd, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    Since when has Buchholz been so much better than either Hughes or Chamberlain? He’s a career 12-14 and 7 of those wins are against Toronto and Baltimore. Will they only pitch him against those two teams? If so, that should give him about 8 wins a year. A real ace, huh?

  208. Rishi December 3rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    :arrow:

  209. 86w183 December 3rd, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    People on this post worry way too much about the Yankees money. It’s their money and they’ll spend what they choose to spend.

    If the choice is Austin Jackson, Juan Miranda and Halladay on the MLB roster or Damon, Matsui and Gaudin then I would vote for the top flight pitcher and the $$ would be comparable if not less.

    There’s no such thing as too much pitching. If Pettite retires you can still go young at # 4 and # 5 and use his money for either Damon or Matsui.

    No way to know if Doc will demand a long term extension or if the Yanks are willing to take him as a one year guy. Time will tell.

  210. Gene-Paul December 3rd, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    Greenberet, never said Ace, just think he has a better upside than joba or hughes.
    If you want to toss out numbers

    Joba Hughes combined 28-19 in 165 appearances
    ERA 4.63. That is basically 118 no decisions aka games they did not factor into, which is roughly i in every 9 games they will give you a quality start. They give up way more home runs than Bucholz, and Joba and Hughes are surrounded by bigger bats, that team can make any run of the mill pitching prospect look good. So really who has more upside, the guy who is going from a offensive team (yanks) to a team that wont have much protection (jays) It would be an easier fit for Bucholz.

  211. raymagnetic December 3rd, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    “I’ve no idea if AJ is talking to Doc, but AJ might need to talk to Hal as Hal is the one who is insisting on lowering the payroll. If George were running the team, I would say that that a deal would likely get done (assuming that the Jays don’t demand an unreasonable package). However, Hal is made of different stuff. Of course he wants to win, but he is more of a business man than George in the sense that he actually cares about a budget.”

    When has Hal EVER said he wanted to lower payroll?

    I guess the money he allowed to be spent last year meant nothing?

    If George were still running the team I can almost guarantee he would have driven Hughes, Joba, and Montero to Canada himself for Roy Hallady.

    Last time George took control of the finances during the offseason the Yankees signed Sheffield instead of Vlad (whom Cashman wanted by the way).

    So. Please. Just. Stop. It. George ran the Yankees into the ground. Wasn’t until he was suspended that the Yankees started winning again.

  212. Glenn December 3rd, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    I think that Toronto needs to unload Vernon Wells and his contract. Some would consider Vernon an upgrade vs. every existing Yankee outfielder. If the Yankees would take Wells they could argue that they have thereby diluted the need for high level talent going to Toronto.


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