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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


The desperation factor

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 03, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The word of a scout is hardly gospel, but it’s certainly an educated opinion. That’s part of the reason I’ve enjoyed reading former scout Frankie Piliere at Fanhouse. In his past two chats — this Wednesday and last Wednesday — Piliere talked a lot about the Yankees, including this question and answer:

Q: What’s going on with the Yankees and Roy Halladay? Last I heard, the Red Sox are making a HUGE push for him right now. Any idea if NY is going to do the same thing? What is their limit (Montero/Hughes/and a lesser prospect?)

Piliere: The million dollar question indeed. Boston is going after him very aggressively right now. I just don’t know if the Yankees have the desperation factor in their corner. They still want to get younger and just not sure they want to go that extra mil and surrender one of their big prospects. If they can do it without Montero or Jackson then I think they’ll be in on it but that’s a big if.

You do have to wonder how much desperation could play a role in the Halladay sweepstakes. As Sam outlined this morning, a Halladay contract extension could put the Yankees into a payroll jam, but probably not enough of one to rule it out. There are only a handful of teams able to enter the Halladay race and it could be a matter of who’s willing to make an over-the-top offer.

Q: Can the Yankees make a major push for Halladay without including Jesus Montero?

Piliere: Can they? Yes. But if Toronto deals Halladay and doesn’t get Montero it doesn’t look too great. I think they have other prospects to pull it off though.

———

Other Yankees highlights from the past two Piliere chats:

• Asked to choose Ian Kennedy or Red Sox prospect Michael Bowden, Piliere went with Kennedy. “I think he’s more in the plans than Yankee fans like to believe,” Piliere said. “Just not sure why people so easily forget about this guy. I think he’ll be in the mix for the rotation in ST barring a spending spree on more pitching.”

• Asked to name breakout players for 2010, Piliere went with the Rangers’ Chris Davis and “Phil Hughes as a starting pitcher.”

• Asked if the Yankees will be willing to budge from a one- or two-year offer for Johnny Damon, Piliere said no. “I think they’ll be smart on this one,” he said. “I do not see them going beyond two years. I can see Damon walking for the bigger deal.”

There’s more Yankees stuff in there. Check it out.

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432 Responses to “The desperation factor”

  1. Crawdaddy December 3rd, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Which prospects Boston is going to deal for Halladay then especially if they don’t give up Buchholz? I have a hard time thinking prospects at the “A” ball level is good enough for Toronto.

  2. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 3rd, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    Generation Trey Resurrected!

  3. kd December 3rd, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    people do forget about ian kennedy.

    is he healthy? if i were brian cahsman, i’d be telling the media that he’s 100%

  4. Phil December 3rd, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    Boston has reportedly backed of Halladay.

  5. Phil December 3rd, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    IPK is 100%, he just pitched in the AFL.

  6. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    Yankees Magazine had a nice feature on IPK this week.

  7. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 3rd, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    IPK pitching a few innings at the end of the season was good to see for a lot of reasons

  8. m December 3rd, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    Boston is in a bind. They have so many holes to fill.

    They should get a LF, SP, and a SS.

    Start with Bay, Harden, and Scutaro. Just pay the money. Unfortunately, that means going into the season with Lowell at 3B, Ortiz at DH, and Victor at C.

    Hold on to Buchholz because you need him in your rotation. But trade him if there’s a glaring hole or a catastrophic injury.

    I think that’s enough to at least get a wild card right now.

  9. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    That crazy inning IPK pitched against the Angels had to be a real confidence booster.

  10. Mark in Tampa December 3rd, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    “Just not sure why people so easily forget about this guy…” (Kennedy)

    Did he watch any Yankee games in 2008? I agree that Kennedy will be in the future Yankee plans, but by his performance in ’08, it can certainly be understood that fans and media alike would write him off. He showed less than nothing, and we really haven’t seen anything since to convince otherwise. If Hughes had missed most of ’09 and was out of our consciousness, we would be forgetting about him, too.

    I think Kennedy will have a bounce back season, whether it is in the majors or the minors, for the Yankees or somebody else. He needs to, or else the baseball people will start forgetting about him too.

  11. SJ44 December 3rd, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    Boston doesn’t have the depth in their system to absorb a Halladay trade and fill the rest of the holes on their team.

    Their two best prospects are Ryan Westmoreland and Casey Kelly and both are in A Ball. If you want to add their 19 year old Cuban SS (whom they won’t trade), that’s the only 3 guys (outside of Buchholz who is already on the ML roster) teams really like.

    They don’t have anybody to rival Austin Romine, let alone, Austin Jackson, Jesus Montero, Hughes, Chamberlain, McAllister, Banuelos, Nova, etc.

    If you add in Pena or Nunez, the Sox still come up short, at least in terms of depth of legitimate prospects, for a Halladay deal.

    The issue with Halladay is simple. Its not money, prospects, or money AND prospects.

    Its Halladay. He controls the process more than the Jays or anybody else.

    If there is one team he wants to go to, and his people tell the Jays its that team or no team, that’s where he is going.

    It won’t be for a mountain of prospects either.

    Its the power of the no trade clause.

    Either trade him to where he wants to go before the start of ST, or be happy with the 2 draft picks when he leaves as a FA in November 2010.

    That’s why the Yankees can take their time on this one. They aren’t the team with a lot of holes to fill.

  12. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Comet, if you are still around…
    when my son was little he used to watch this tugboat cartoon on Canadian TV, and we can’t remember the name of it…do you know?

  13. JK December 3rd, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    Kennedy rediscovered his missing curve in winterball last year. He developed a 2 seamer this winterball.

    If Kennedy’s velocity is back to 2007 and his early college days again like it was in the AFL (90-93 mph), then he still has #3 potential.

  14. G. Love December 3rd, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    I still don’t know why Yankee fans care about the Yankee payroll.

    The Yankees have the financial might to make mistakes disappear. Igawa and his 4 million salary is an afterthought in AAA. The Yankees also have the ability to cut players they owe money to if they think they are done with them and need a better option.

    That may not be how you like your favorite team run, but it’s the reality of the situation here.

    The Yankees know getting Roy Halladay gives them a huge upgrade for next season. It also keeps him away from their biggest rival in Boston.

    You say it doesn’t matter what Boston does, yet last season one of our biggest moves was weakening Boston by taking Tex from them right under their noses.

    If you really think the Yankees and Red Sox don’t try to steal players from one another you haven’t been paying attention.

    The Yankees won’t trade Montero. You can all get your shorts out of bunch over that.

    He’s the next Jorge when Jorge rides off into the sunset. The Yankees believe in finding offensive positional advantages in positions other teams can’t. It’s what make the Yankee lineup so long and deep and allows the Yankees to play Melky and Gardner in CF.

    They know the true value of Montero if he’s behind the plate and I’m sure they are fully committed to seeing that play out.

    That said, none of you can sit here and call him the next Arod, Manny, etc. You look foolish doing that. He needs time to develop. He’s not ready for the pro’s.

    Dismissing the fact that his current winter league team isn’t using because the league is ultra-competitive is even more foolish. It’s just an excuse to make for a player you believe the hype on and then some.

    Clearly, he still needs work to make it up to the Yankees.

    Still, you don’t trade him.

    One of Joba or Phil? You do trade for Hallyday. You still get to keep the other one and you get Roy fricking Hallyday to replace the other which is a massive improvement.

    Yes, Hallyday is going to sky rocket the Yankee payroll.

    So what? Where does it affect you as a fan? Are you embarrassed that your favorite team spends money?

    I’m not. I’d be more embarrassed to be a Boston fan and see my owners put out 130 million dollar payroll while they rake in cash from the fans.

    You keep Montero and you trade whatever else it’s going to take to get Doc because he gives this team the best chance at more titles in the next 4 years.

    By the time he’s not effective, I’m sure whoever the Yankees traded for him will be available again as free agents or someone better will come along in the organization.

    I’m not convinced that Joba and Phil deserve the 4 & 5 spots. I don’t think Cashman is either. He played that card 2 seasons ago and it didn’t work. He wouldn’t have done what he did last season with CC and AJ if he truly believed that handing rotation spots to those 2 were the best way to win.

    That’s not saying they won’t be good pitchers, but a lot remains to be seen about both.

    Their best success in the majors have come in the pen.

    Until they do it in the rotation over the course of a full season, they are question marks.

    Still, we’d only have to give up one for Doc. If it’s going to take both, I trust that Cashman walks away from the deal.

  15. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 3rd, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    I think the unfortunate thing for guys like Hughes, Joba, and IPK was that the expectations thrusted upon them all in 2007 were so insanely unrealistic that it really messed their development.

    Not so much with Joba as he excelled in the pen, but Hughes and IPK.

    I’m really not sure what to expect out of any of them, least of all Kennedy. It was terrible to make comparisons to Mussina…not acceptable or fair by any stretch of the imagination.

    I hope he overcomes it…

  16. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    SJ
    I know Halladay is saying he wants to be traded by spring training, or stay put for the year. If he isn’t traded by ST, do you think he would waive his NTC to be picked up mid season by a contending team?

  17. JRB December 3rd, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    kate,

    I agree with you. While Halladay wants some stability for the year, it’s hard for me to see him staying put on that team especially if they’re in 4th or 5th place in the division. At the same time though, it’s hard to think of how many teams would be willing to get rid of top prospects for a 2 month rental.

  18. CD December 3rd, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Boston ALSO faces a payroll jam.

    VMart and Beckett are FA next year.

    So as of now, they have to resign VMart, Beckett, Bay and sign someone to play SS and replace Lowell when his contract expires next year. Finally Papi and Drew will need to be replaced after 2011.

    Everyone talks about the yankee financial restrictions, but not Boston’s.

  19. NYYROC December 3rd, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    Huuuuuggghhheesssss!!! Just felt good to say (write) that again! Can’t wait for ST!!

  20. m December 3rd, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    The fact that Roy said anything of the kind publicly is very telling in and of itself. Sounds like he wants to push the issue and it’s very clear that he did not like that he was made available when Ricciardi dropped his little bombshell. And the deadline came and went, and he was still a Jay.

    So, of course it’s not an ultimatum. Just a nudge in the right direction.

  21. SJ44 December 3rd, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    GLove,

    Outstanding post. That’s what I’ve been saying all along.

    I love the prospects as much as the next guy. I just don’t overhype them.

    Calling a kid who can’t get off the bench in winterball is the next “Arod or Joe D”, is overhyping someone.

    The Yankees would trade one of Phil or Joba for Halladay in a NY minute.

    I too believe they won’t trade Montero.

    I do however think Joba or Phil, Austin Romine and an A Ball prospect would be as strong (or stronger) a proposal to the Jays as any team could put forth.

    Doesn’t mean they will get him. Just mean that the Yankees have the pieces to both do this deal and not drain the farm doing so.

  22. CD December 3rd, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    Where is 36 year old Johnny Damon going to walk to ??

    Who’s gonna give him a 3 or 4 year deal?

  23. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 3rd, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    G. Love,

    They may have the financial might to make them disappear, but these little disappearing acts don’t positively impact their ability to win championships.

    They need to allocate their resources intelligently. Couldn’t you say that all the money they wasted on various former all stars or dumpy japanese imports could have been better used elsewhere or not at all and thus created more draft picks?

    One guy that comes to mind is Sheffield. I was always a fan of that guy despite his selfish attitude that inevitably affected every team he’s played for in some way.

    Its unfortunate that Cashman (err, Steinbrenner) felt compelled to bring that guy on board and sacrifice those draft picks when our offense was already pretty darned good even before the Soriano/A-Rod trade.

    We had Jeter, ARod/Soriano, Giambi, Posada, Matsui.

    The money SHOULD have gone towards pitching, if anything.

    I dare say that if we had put that money towards pitching in 2004, Boston would still be cursed, especially after the departures of Clemens and Pettitte.

    Heck, if Steinbrenner wasn’t a cheapskate with Pettite, he very well may have stayed healthy throughout 2004 and been the key difference between winning and losing to Boston that year.

    ALL SPECULATION, I know, but it makes for a compelling argument.

  24. G. Love December 3rd, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    SJ,

    I think at the end of the day it comes down to how Toronto ranks Joba, Phil and Bucholtz.

    If Bucholtz somehow is internally ranked #1 by them over Joba and Phil then I think Boston has an edge.

    That said, I don’t think Boston will ever give Doc the contract the Yankees will and I think Doc knows that and will steer the process to the Yankees when all is said and done.

    Boston will pull that hometown discount garbage on him trying to get him to go under his market.

    From my perspective, most players don’t agree with that concept unless they are young and locked into the club for years before they hit free agency.

    That said, I still think Youkilis and Pedroia made a huge mistake taking the under market deals that bought out years of free agency in Boston.

  25. Abdababdaserser December 3rd, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    upstate kate, Halladay hated what he went through last season after he was put on the market. He might consider a trade to a contender, but he is looking more term than that and its far too big a risk for the Jays that he will change his mind.

    The Twinkies knew that Santana had put his foot down about it and had to deal him or live with the draft picks.

    There are a number of comments that are attributed to Halladay that leads you to think he is very interested in being with the Yankees. His comment about facing specifically Yankee batters when talking about facing the AL East. His talk of wanting to go to a continually contending team (Boston might be close but no other team has been in as many post seasons as the Yankees over the last 15 years, and the Yankees don’t look to be slowing down). His desire to remain on the east coast and have ST near his Florida home.

    Add to that his ties and friendship with AJ, and supposedly other members of the Yankees pushing for Halladay, and it seems like his leanings are toward the Yankees.

    Halladay has been linked to being open to going to a couple of clubs. Phillies, Boston and the Yanks. He has stated though that he doesn’t like to bat, which probably puts the Phillies a bit behind.

    Boston has other holes to fill, and the Mariners seem like they are looking to make some moves this year. Its rumored they are interested in Lackey and in Bay. They might just be making enough of a push to unseat the Angels, who seem to be the main competition in the West.

  26. Giuseppe Franco December 3rd, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    The Yanks just won the World Series using the strategy of keeping their young talent and waiting for the big guns to hit free agency.

    Cashman wasn’t likely to change his strategy even before they won their 27th title and he’s even less likely now, especially since it is no secret that the Yanks are a better team because they didn’t trade these young kids away.

    Cashman simply does not like to “pay twice” for okayers a year away from FA (see Santana, Sabathia, and Teixeira).

    I know it’s the hot stove season but the odds of Halladay coming to the Yanks via a trade this offseason are paper thin at best.

  27. kd December 3rd, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    so the mariners are pushing for jason bay. i like this. if bay goes to seattle, then the red sox will get more desperate. they still have to wonder if holliday can handle the al east, and more importantly handle playing in boston. then they have to deal with boras.

    as far as halladay, hopefully aj can do his magic

  28. 86w183 December 3rd, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    If they make the Halladay deal they would most likely need to commit to giving LF or DH to youngsters, maybe both if Pettite returns, but that’s ok.

    The Yanks would have plenty of offense with Jeter, Alex, Tex, Swish, Cano and Jorge. If the bottom three is a little light its a small price to play for the addition of Halladay.

    Might this package get it done?

    McAllister or Kennedy
    Robertson or Melancon
    Romine
    De La Rosa or Banuelos

  29. Betsy December 3rd, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    I have not heard any buzz on Boston/Halladay. In fact, Buster was on with Kay yesterday and said that they (well Theo, anyway) do not want to part with Bucholz – in part because he’ll be good and cheap for a long time.

  30. champ809 December 3rd, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    at this point i almost want everyone to just stop talking about Joba and Hughes as most of you sound like you haven’t a clue what your talking about.

    Cash I believe and based on what I hear and read is a big believer in the futures of both Joba and Phil and I’m sure would prefer to keep both of them and have them as the 4&5 starters this upcoming season but the Yanks upper management is not an Autocracy. The final decision is not his alone.

    Girardi is another animal altogether as evidenced by his comments which to me reveal him to be self serving. He I’m sure wants to package Montero/Joba/AJax for Halladay and sign Holliday because he simply wants an almost guaranteed title next year and the 3/4 yr extension @ 5mm that would come along with it. Damn with what’s best for the long term careers of our players or the competitive position of the franchise. His JOB is to assist in the development of Joba and Phil and Montero and AJax and such.

    Joba by the way “Yanks Fans” was in the top10 in the league in era heading into the “rules restrictions” phase of the Joba Rules laast year. He accomplished this @ 23 yrs old, basically in a figure it out on the fly on the job training with just his pure raw stuff! He will be better this year and he’ll be just turned loose. Hand him the ball every 5th day in the #4 spot on our staff and just wait till June hits when everybody’s jumping back on his bandwagon again.
    Anybody know what the Yanks w-l record was in Joba’s 1st 35 starts as a pitcher for us(prior to Aug. ’09 and the 2-3inning “start” phase?

  31. G. Love December 3rd, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    Mad Prince,

    Sheff is a bad example. If you remember Cashman wanted to lock up Vlad long term to play RF for the Yankees.

    It wasn’t Sheffield vs. spending money on pitching.

    It was Sheff vs. Vlad.

    I understand the concept of payroll flexibility, but I also understand that if you keep one of Joba/Phil and don’t deal them for Hallyday and Hallyady remains dominant for the next 4-5 years and one of Joba/Phil don’t pan out, then the team suffers and the record suffers and the chances of getting to the post season suffer.

    Listen, do the Yankees need Hallyday to field a competitive team?

    No.

    But the Yankees are all about the post season. It cost me over 8k to pay for my seats for the entire run of the playoffs and that was on top of the season ticket price.

    That post season money is a windfall for the Yankees that I think they want to guarantee will be there come October.

    At this moment, Hallyday gives them a better chance to repeat.

    We just won a title with 3 starting pitchers. I don’t think the team wants to go that route again.

  32. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 3rd, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    G. Love,

    Regarding the rest of your post, you do make some great points.

    Like SJ44 wrote, I will not OVERHYPE prospects that haven’t even smelled New York yet. Its a waste of time and as you wrote, a person looks silly when trying to compare Jesus Montero to any number of all stars. Someone on here said he should play next year cuz he’ll be as good as Piazza, guaranteed. Really?

    Anyways, I’ve been writing time and again that I perceive the Halladay trade as being similar to the Clemens trade, only Doc is 3 years younger than Clemens was at the time and relatively dominant.

    I think my main issue is who they would decide to trade…Hughes or Joba. Very hard decision to make.

  33. Vader December 3rd, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    GF…I’ve been away from the blog since the post season, have you made it home yet and how are you doing?

    Hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving.

  34. Abdababdaserser December 3rd, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    G. Love, I just don’t see where Toronto would put Buchholz higher than Joba or Hughes.

    Both Joba and Hughes did very well through the season in the majors while Boston kept Buchholz hidden in the minors. I do not believe that even Boston is as high on Buchholz as they are trying to sell it.

    Buchholz was left in the minors while the Red Sox struggled with Penny and Smoltz. They even brought up Tazawa who had no experience over Buchholz.

    Buchholz had that early success, but then was in the minors again to be “rebuilt”. Add to that his build being so slight compared to most pitchers.

    The only thing Boston could do that would improve the Buchholz offering would be adding in Bard, but I don’t see Boston doing that as I think they are going to let Papelbon walk or trade him.

  35. Betsy December 3rd, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    Gene-Paul is a Sox and Jays fan? How odd…..and we’re to take his posts as gospel?

  36. Abdababdaserser December 3rd, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    Boston also won’t be signing Polanco to cover 2nd if they move Pedroia over to SS. Their choices to fill their holes just got reduced a bit more.

  37. m December 3rd, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    Joba was bad heading into the all star break. That had nothing to do with the “Joba Rules”. In fact, they did all kinds of tweaking because he was getting shelled. Hello?! First inning troubles? Hello?! Can’t make it out of the 5th because of elevated pitch count.

    The Yankees bent over backwards to accomodate Joba. He was given every opportunity to prove himself. Which he did at times, but not at others. Just like any young pitcher struggles.

    But please, don’t point fingers at the Yankees.

  38. SteveB December 3rd, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    Hiya Chad, long time no speak.

    I like Ian Kennedy A LOT, but in 2008 & 2009 he pitched a total of 116 and 23 innings, respectively. I realize he has pitched about another 30 innings during winter ball, but my point is that his total 2010 innings will most likely be set on some variation of what we now know as the ‘Joba Rules’. So I question just how much he can actually help the Yankees in 2010. I also don’t really see him as a reliever as he is more of a ‘control pitcher’, versus what Hughes brought to the setup role in 2009 with his 94-95 heater.

  39. 86w183 December 3rd, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    m —

    Completely wrong there on Mr. Chamberlain. Yes, Joba had two lousy starts before the All-Star break but had three outstanding starts and a pretty good one immediately afterward before the revised Joba Rules started messing with him.

    He was 8-2, 3.73 after 21 starts, which is pretty damn good. That’s why I only want to make the Halladay deal if it can be done without Joba and Phil.

  40. G. Love December 3rd, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    I definitely rank Joba and Phil above Bucholtz. In fact, I probably rank Joba ever so slightly higher than Phil.

    Joba has shown he has Ace stuff at times. It’s just not clear what he’s developing into at this point.

    Is he the next closer or is he going to be a starter?

    It would definitely hurt to give up one of Joba/Phil plus minor leaguers for Doc.

    But if the Yankees do it, they are doing it because they want to win and I have no qualms about that.

    Would I rather wait for Doc to be a free agent and give up nothing other than the draft picks?

    Absolutely.

    But, I think Doc is going for an extension now rather pitching another season without one.

    The only thing that gives me hope is if Doc wants the extension now, it may end up decreasing the talent Cashman will give up for him and we may end up keeping both Joba/Phil and getting Doc which isn’t out of the question since Doc is steering the ship here.

    If he knows the Angels, Red Sox and Phillies won’t give him Yankees dollars in an extension and the Yankees will give him big dollars, he can effectively tell the Jays that he will only accept a deal to the Yankees and Cashman can get away with not giving up the talent he would have to with all things being equal.

    I don’t Boston, Anaheim or Philly writing a check for 20 plus million a season for this guy and trading their top chips.

    That’s why it pays to be patient in this waiting game.

    We may end up getting Doc for IPK, Romine and Jackson.

    You never know.

  41. Bronx Jeers December 3rd, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    Boy it would be pretty cool not seeing Roy Halladay eat the Yankee offense up for lunch/dinner.

    For years I’ve always seemed to catch his starts as part of the Friday night plan.

    For a while I really hated seeing him but then I just learned to accept it and to appreciate the performance.

    IMO, he’ll age well with his compact delivery. His ball arrives low,low,low and always seems to be moving into the paint.

    He’s like a slightly more more powerful version of Greg Maddux.

    I won’t say he’ll be as good as Maddux was from 33 to 37 but it’s not unthinkable.

    BTW Maddux won 87 games in those 5 seasons after turning 33.

  42. Abdababdaserser December 3rd, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    The biggest problem the Yankees had over this decade was pitching not being good enough for the post season. They had the bats, but their pitching wasn’t as good.

    I have concern that the Yankees, knowing that pitching is very important in the post season, will back off from offense. The biggest reason for the WS win was that they had the pitching AND the offense to wear down the pitching they faced. When you lean too much toward one you risk not going as well as hoped.

    The Giants are a prime example of pitching not being enough for the regular season. Even Grienke lost more games than he should have because of the lack of steady offense.

  43. Betsy December 3rd, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    Bucholz pitched very well against the Jays this season, so the Jays saw him at his best. Who really knows how they feel about the players? Maybe they are willing to negotiate off of a Joba or Hughes and instead get quality depth (more players), maybe not.

    I don’t think Doc will do the “I will only go to such and such team, so I’m staying if you don’t work something out”. For all we know, he could value the Yankees and Sox equally (he’d prefer not to hit, so I don’t see him signing an extension with the Phillies, and he prefers training in Florida, so I’m not sure he’d sign an extension with the Angels). ……

    I’m just not sure where Cash stands on this, to be honest. I don’t think he will trade Joba, Hughes or Montero. Maybe he’s a prospect hugger, maybe all of those years that the Yankees traded their kids (only to have them come back and haunt the team) have made him gunshy about trading very good prospects…..There are a lot of unknowns here.

    Mad Prince, I’m not an Insider, so I can’t read what Buster wrote this morning; care to summarize? Thanks

  44. G. Love December 3rd, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Betsy,

    What kids have the Yankees traded that have come back to haunt them?

    Outside of Jay Buhner back in the mid 90′s, I’m drawing a blank.

    And Dioner Navarro doesn’t count. He just lost his job to Shoppach in TB.

  45. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 3rd, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Guiseppe, I agree with everything you said. The odds the Yanks trade for Halladay are very very low.

  46. Abdababdaserser December 3rd, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    G. Love, I tend to agree with you. I think Joba has more talent in terms of what he can do physically, than does Hughes. I just think that Joba has a problem with getting out of his own way.

    I think the Yankees have always valued Hughes more, and that is probably due to his make up. He doesn’t throw quite as hard as Joba, though a couple MPH isn’t going to make that much difference. He has better control and less emotions.

    I also think that Halladay is more inclined to do sign an extension over just accepting a trade. It just seems like he would rather have things settled.

    I don’t see the Jays wanting to hope for draft picks, as they are a bigger risk.

  47. m December 3rd, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    86,

    Coincidentally or not, Joba fell off around the passing of the trade deadlines.

    Joba said he recharged his batteries in Nebraska and him realizing how much he LOVES the game was the reason why he had that stellar start out of the gate. But I wonder if he was pitching well because his name was linked to a Halladay trade?

  48. champ809 December 3rd, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    m
    December 3rd, 2009 at 1:33 pm
    Joba was bad heading into the all star break. That had nothing to do with the “Joba Rules”. In fact, they did all kinds of tweaking because he was getting shelled. Hello?! First inning troubles? Hello?! Can’t make it out of the 5th because of elevated pitch count.
    *******************************************************

    you are totally wrong about that my friend… Joba the month of June made 6 starts averaging 6 innings/per and gave up 3 or fewer runs in all of his starts… He had two bad starts back to back @ Home against Toronto and @ Anaheim and then came back with 3 dominant starts and then the rules phase kicked in.

    EVERY PITCHER INCLUDING HALLADAY?LINCECUM AND ANYBODY ELSE CAN HAVE SLUMPS!

    But if you really want a better picture not based on your misguided perceptions look at the actual record and stats from July ’08 when he first transitioned into the starting role until Aug ’09 when they instituted the limits it comprises about 34 starts which is a full season worth of starts and then tell me what those #’s look like

    ’08 12 starts 5-2/2.60era as a SP
    ’09 21 starts 8-2/3.73 era

    combined 33starts/13-4/3.25era initial 33 major league starts

    if Joba next year makes 33 starts,wins 15-17 games with an era 3.5 or lower for 600K why would i need Halladay for 23mil is he going to win all his starts and pitch to a 1.00era to justify the difference in salary?

  49. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Well in my perfect world, the Yankees get Halladay (even if it is next year) AND keep Joba and Phil.

    GF- glad to hear you are doing better :)

  50. Abdababdaserser December 3rd, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    Betsy, I don’t think Cashman is afraid to trade players who were once untouchable. Look at Tabata.

    Joba seemed to cause a good deal of frustration for the Yankees. We all remarked on it though the season, how he would shake off the catcher and not go after batters. There was talk he wouldn’t listen to the coaching. Some of that seemed to come from him getting too big too soon.

    There is also confusion about which role is he best suited for. Closer/ setup or starter. He certainly looked better as a reliever THIS year, but he did have dominating games at times. I think it seems the Yankees have more confidence in Hughes developing than in Joba developing as a starter, which despite the talking heads, is the more important role for a club.

  51. Ed - slacking in class now December 3rd, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    G Love:

    does Thames and Rivera count?

  52. 86w183 December 3rd, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    Don’t care why he was so good after the break. I’m just saying that he was not in danger of being removed from the rotation, he just had two lousy starts.

    It amazes me that so many people have opinions on what Roy Halladay wants in terms of teams, extensions etc. The fact is none of us has a clue. I hope he told the Jays Yankees and only the Yankees, but it’s just wishful thinking.

  53. raymagnetic December 3rd, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    “Did he watch any Yankee games in 2008? I agree that Kennedy will be in the future Yankee plans, but by his performance in ‘08, it can certainly be understood that fans and media alike would write him off. He showed less than nothing, and we really haven’t seen anything since to convince otherwise. If Hughes had missed most of ‘09 and was out of our consciousness, we would be forgetting about him, too. ”

    We should judge every pitcher based on 10 games pitched if they do poorly, then well, they’re nothing.

  54. G. Love December 3rd, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    Ed,

    Do Thames and Rivera count to you?

    Would they have started on any of the Yankee teams over the past years?

  55. m December 3rd, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    champ and 86,

    You’ve made your points, but I don’t think the Joba rules are to blame for his bad starts. Chalk them up to “every pitcher, even Halladay and Lincecum” struggle. Chalk them up to being out of shape. Chalk them up to his propensity to nibble. Bad mechanics. Iffy control. Overdependence on the slider. Inability to throw the slider for strikes at times.

    But don’t blame the Yankees, who did their best to protect Joba.

  56. m December 3rd, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    Oh! And stubborness. Continually shaking off Jorge.

  57. Ed - slacking in class now December 3rd, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    G Love,

    yeah you right. they would had been 4th/5th OFers, or either DFA’d long time ago.

  58. Pat M. December 3rd, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    SJ, Is Tony reporting with the Pitchers & Catchers in mid-Feb……I wonder if they have 24 hour fitness centers in Nebraska, if they do, that’s were Jobe should be at least 3 hours a day……As for Doc, money isn’t an issue, it’s going to be the exchange of young talent….Even Joba & Romine could be the best offer Toronto gets…..Ian Kennedy will open many eyes come March…People I’ve spoken to just raved about him during his stint in Arizona….He’s back on course to being a good # 4 type pitcher who’ll give you a plus 5 record ( 11-6 ) guy…..Joba will go before Hughes

  59. AeroFANatic December 3rd, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    I don’t think Gaudin will be tendered, and make 3 million….when essentially Kennedy is the same type of pitcher with MUCH higher upside.

    I think next years rotation is CC, AJ, Petitte, Hughes, and either Chamberlain/Kennedy with the loser being in the pen.

    I also think 2 of the following will be on the big league club in 2010: Damon, Matsui, Cameron, Granderson, Miranda.

    If we get a CF (Granderson/Cameron), Melky moves to RF and Swisher becomes DH. Then the million dollar question is…who plays LF? Possible that Melky goes to LF and the DH spot goes to Miranda and the bench as they employ the “rotating dh”.

    30 million for 4 spots. Petitte(10mil) leaves us 20 million for 3 spots. We can afford a Granderson, Cameron, Damon, Matsui…but on our terms to keep it under 200million

  60. Wave Your Hat December 3rd, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    I just can’t see the Yanks getting Halladay. They might want to force up the price the Sox pay, but I can’t see him coming here.

    First, payroll. Talk about how rich the Yanks are all you want, and talk about how the fans don’t care, but budgets are budgets and there must be limits somewhere.

    Per Cot’s and Sam this AM the Yanks have ARod, Jeter, Tex, CC, AJ, Mo, Jorge, Cano, Swisher and Marte signed for $166.3MM.

    They control Joba, Phil, Melky, Gardner, Robertson, Aceves, Bruney and coke, who barring trades will almost certainly be on the roster in 2010 – say a total of $5.6MM (that’s the sum of my guesses for what they will get from the Yanks or arbitration, you can do your own but I suspect you’ll come up with a very similar amount).

    Let’s say they decide to save $$ as much as possible, by letting Molina go and keeping Cervelli, and Pena as backup infielder – that’s $$0.8MM.

    Total – $172.7MM for 20 players.

    Let’s say they bring Andy back for approximately $11MM. You are up to $183.7MM.

    You still need a LF, a DH, another bench guy and a pitcher.

    To replace Matsui and Damon and add a bench guy around the minimum, I think you are talking $20MM. Maybe it’s $18MM, maybe $22MM, but I’m guessing $20MM and I’m probably not far off.

    Total- $203.7MM. You still need a pitcher.

    If it’s Halladay, add $16MM with no extension. With an extension, say $23MM.

    But you aren’t done. If Joba or Phil go in the deal, you have to replace whichever one of them would have started in the pen – say $4MM for the same quality pitcher you are losing.

    So add Halladay’s and the replacement reliever’s salary, and subtract Joba or Phil’s. That’s $19.5MM with no extension, $26.5MM with an extension.

    Total- between $223.2MM and $230MM. That’s up from between $206MM and $210MM this year. As they say, it ain’t happenin’.

    To sign Doc, they will have to compromise. Decrease the offense, not get a replacement for Phil or Joba in the pen, not sign Andy. They’ll need to save $15MM to $20MM somewhere.

    I don’t see it. Cashman didn’t do it for Santana, he didn’t do it for Lee or Halladay during 2009. IMO he’s not doing it now.

  61. raymagnetic December 3rd, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Career Numbers:

    Phil Hughes – 192 IP’s 105 ERA+ 1.282 WHIP

    Joba Chamberlain – 281 IP’s 121 ERA+ 1.374 WHIP

    Clay Buccholz – 109 IP’s 95 ERA+ 1.495 WHIP

    One of these things is clearly worse than the others.

  62. G. Love December 3rd, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    How in God’s name is Ian Kennedy going to be counted on for a rotation spot next season?

    Cashman will NEVER go into spring training or leave spring training with him as one of the starters.

    He needs to build up innings.

    Some of you guys just don’t think when it comes to prospects.

    The team can’t continually have starting pitchers with innings limits in the rotation.

    Every time they try that they end having to find a Mitre/Gaudin type on the fly because that plan doesn’t work.

    You think you can pencil Kennedy in for 180 innings next year?

    I don’t even think you can pencil in Hughes for that much as a starter next year.

  63. Nick in SF December 3rd, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    I thought we got Sheff because he was Steinbrenner’s nephew. Maybe I’m misremembering.

  64. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    Betsy, I don’t think Cashman is afraid to trade players who were once untouchable. Look at Tabata.

    There’s a difference between Tabata – who had stalled at AA and was showing a poor attitude as well – and Joba who soared through the minors and is already performing at the major league level.

  65. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    Ray -

    Do those numbers you posted above include the stellar work that Joba and Hughes did in relief or purely starting numbers?

  66. Tom December 3rd, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    I can see Joba and Phil becoming excellent pitchers in 2 years if not next year with the confidence the championship gives to them. I don’t want to trade them. Can’t we get Doc with Montero, Ajax, Mitre or Aceves or Kennedy or Zach Macallister or Ivan Nova? Yankees have a ton of good young talent.

  67. G. Love December 3rd, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    Nick,

    Sheff was Steinbrenner’s Tampa love child. Conceived in the back room of Malio’s steakhouse.

  68. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    Piliere may know talent, but I don’t think he understands the art of the deal.

    As I said on the other thread, there is no way that Halladay is worth Montero when Santana and Lee went for far, far less.

  69. m December 3rd, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    Well, the Yankees need to 4 very good starters if they want to march through the playoffs again next season. Baseball’s going to adjust accordingly after the Yankees won 11 games with 3 starters.

  70. AeroFANatic December 3rd, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    Kennedy at the very least can be the long man/spot starter/1-2 inning guy this season as injuries also happen. He is better than Gaudin IMO, higher upside, and MUCH cheaper which will allow the Yanks to save 2.5 million to use somewhere else.

    Bullpen would be: Rivera, Robertson, Coke, Marte, Bruney, Aceves, and Kennedy/Chamberlain.

  71. sab December 3rd, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    I don’t think he will trade Joba, Hughes or Montero. Maybe he’s a prospect hugger, maybe all of those years that the Yankees traded their kids (only to have them come back and haunt the team) have made him gunshy about trading very good prospects…
    ———————————————————–
    come on now…thats a little dramatic…how many prospects can you name that the yankees traded in the last 10 years that have come back and haunt them…i count a total of zero (dioner navarro is a scrub except for 1 year that he was less scrubby than about 50% of the rest of the catchers in the AL)..

    the yankees have traded no one that has amounted to anything other than an average player – which unfortuantely also is true to the many “can’t miss” minor leaguers they currently are parading to the big team for a few weeks at a time now..

  72. Pat M. December 3rd, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    G. Love, I was not endorsing Ian to be pitching in the Bronx this season after camp breaks…However my point is that he’s feeling better and he pitched much better this his surgery……I do think he’ll turn out to be a 13-14 win type guy pitching in the 4th spot……Wave, you budget breakdown is noteworthy, that’s why I think Cashman tries to get the Granderson deal….

  73. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    As I said on the other thread, there is no way that Halladay is worth Montero when Santana and Lee went for far, far less.

    That logic doesn’t apply for a couple of reasons:

    1. We know how Baseball America and Scouts Inc felt about the players that Cleveland and the Twins got – we have no idea how the organizations felt about them

    2. Even if we assume that both those trades were mistakes (and for the Twins it certainly does look that way) that doesn’t mean that Anthopolus will make the same bad decision that another GM made.

    3. Each team is a different situation – we don’t know if maybe the Indians had to deal Cliff Lee – maybe there’s something they know about his medicals that made them think that now was the time they had to move him for fear he’s going to snap his arm off any second.

    4. Those two players were not traded to teams within their division

    5. CC Sabathia was traded for a top level prospect who (at the time of the deal) was far more polished than Montero is now.

  74. kd December 3rd, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    saito close to signing with the braves

    red sox take another on the chin

  75. Erin December 3rd, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    Yay for the IPK reference! :)

    Sorry-I know I’m late to this discussion. lol

  76. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    how many prospects can you name that the yankees traded in the last 10 years that have come back and haunt them

    Mike Lowell

    And, even though he’s been hurt off and on, after watching Giambi for all those years how could you not miss Nick Johnson?

  77. squidward December 3rd, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    “Baseball’s going to adjust accordingly after the Yankees won 11 games with 3 starters.”

    We can only hope so. Loved the results, but the postseason schedule was just brutal. Yankees had 1 fewer off days in the postseason than they had in the 6 month regular season. As a fan, it was a bit of a downer to see the Yankees play everyday over the summer only to assume an NBA schedule once October rolled around.

  78. raymagnetic December 3rd, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    “Ray -

    Do those numbers you posted above include the stellar work that Joba and Hughes did in relief or purely starting numbers?”

    As far as I’m concerned innings are innings. Some think pitching out of the pen is more stressful on the arm than starting.

    Those are the numbers however.

  79. Tom December 3rd, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    Remember when we traded all of those good young pitchers in the 80′s? Drabek, Rijo

  80. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 3rd, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    “5. CC Sabathia was traded for a top level prospect who (at the time of the deal) was far more polished than Montero is now.”

    Maybe Matt LaPorta was more polished in the field but not at the plate. Before being traded LaPorta was destroying AA, the same thing Montero did last year.

    Plus, Montero has much more upside than LaPorta did (and does).

  81. Corey December 3rd, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    looks like Boston needs to add Bullpen to their woes….First Wagner, now Saito is about to sign with Atlanta.

  82. Tom December 3rd, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    Atlanta is aggressive so far.

  83. Giuseppe Franco December 3rd, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    Vader and Kate,

    Just got home on Saturday after 8 weeks of purgatory. It’s a struggle to get around sometimes but I’d rather be immobile at home than in the hospital.

    Thanks to you and everyone else for the well wishes.

  84. Giuseppe Franco December 3rd, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    Looks like Saito and Wagner are going to be replacing Gonzalez and Soriano.

  85. Pat M. December 3rd, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Good to have to back & off the DL Mr. Franco, just in time for the Winter Meetings……Corey, The BoSox now need 3 bullpen arms, a SS, a 1st baseman, a leftfielder…And they have to hope that Dice-K and Wakefield can stay healthy……The Boy Genius Theo has his work cut out for him…..And to think pitching is their strenght or was…

  86. Laura - Bring back Matsui in 2010! December 3rd, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Looks like ATL is trying to make a real run at PHI’s throne. Look for the Mets to lose the division yet again.

  87. Nick in SF December 3rd, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    kd, what do you think about the UW game tomorrow?

    Can we make it to the Sun Bowl?

  88. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    Chip

    Here’s why my logic is tight:

    1. I really don’t care what BA thinks; I can recognize talent on my own. Neither the Mets nor the Philies traded a young pitcher with Hughes or Joba’s established ML talent, nor did they include a generational talent like Montero.

    2. Anthopolus may not make the same “bad” decision, but in any business, comparable sales are used to set market value. For example, they are a key factor in appraising a house. So while some dumb GM may decide to overpay, no reasonable GM would, and my post is based on what is reasonable.

    3. If the Jays don’t deal Halladay, they lose him for picks because their owner has said that he won’t re-sign with them. That’s the same situation that the Twins were in.

    4. If the Jays want as pitiful a haul as Bill Smith got because he didn’t want to trade Santana in the AL, then he is as dumb as Bill Smith, and he can explain that meager return to his fans.

    5. The CC deal was made before the economy fell off of a cliff. But either way, that’s one comparable compared to two, so it’s the exception rather than the rule.

  89. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    As far as I’m concerned innings are innings. Some think pitching out of the pen is more stressful on the arm than starting.

    Ok, well you’re entitled to your opinion – but I think that the view around MLB is a little different. I think some teams look at Bucholtz and say “he’s a starter” whereas they look at Joba and aren’t sure and look at Hughes and wonder if he can physically hold up to a full season of starting.

    And also I think that we can all agree that there’s more of a premium put on starting pitching than relief pitching.

    Simply to put the numbers on the record here’s what Joba and Hughes have done as starters compared to Bucholtz:

    Joba: 221 IP, 101 BB, 202 K, 4.18 ERA
    Hughes: 141 IP, 59 BB, 112 K, 5.22 ERA
    Bucholtz: 186 IP, 84 BB, 158 K, 4.97 ERA

  90. Comet December 3rd, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    Upstate Kate:

    Does this ring a bell?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Tugboat

  91. ray (sox fan) December 3rd, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    I will readily admit that the Sox have quite a few holes to fill for next season.

    But some of you guys are reaching a little bit in my opinion. :) Saito will be 40 years old before next season starts.

    He is a decent relief pitcher at this point in his career, but if he is signed by Atlanta there will be no loss of sleep by the Sox front office or by Sox fans.

  92. squidward December 3rd, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    “Looks like ATL is trying to make a real run at PHI’s throne.”

    Because they signed Wagner and Saito? They just donwgraded their bullpen…….twice. If they were serious about making a run, they’d have tried keeping Soriano and Gonzalez.

  93. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    squidward

    They can’t without moving Lowe.

  94. Nick in SF December 3rd, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    “Saito will be 40 years old before next season starts.”

    The stem cells are much younger. Theo blew it again.

  95. kd December 3rd, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    nick,

    UW is ours! We got the Axe and we’re rolling on!!

    Ok, I will return to reality. no rain, we win easily.

    the Sun Bowl would be better than the Emerald bowl.

    Who do you think wins the Civil War tonight? My guess is Oregon wins in a blow out

  96. champ809 December 3rd, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    LaPorta is 5 YEARS OLDER than Montero and Montero has actually put up better #’s in his professional career to date.
    Montero is also bringing plus-plus offensive potential to a position-C- where it rarely exists.
    LaPorta is an OF/1b/DH type who doesn’t project to have the power potential that Montero has so it’s totally different.

    BTW the Phils gave the Indians 4 of the top 7 prospects in their organization at the time of the deal. Marson.Carrasco,McDonald where also the 3 closest to ml ready prospects in the Phils system. Drabek and Dominic Brown moved up the lists that season with good seasons @ the a+ and aa levels but it’s not like the Phils package was garbage.

  97. squidward December 3rd, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    “He is a decent relief pitcher at this point in his career, but if he is signed by Atlanta there will be no loss of sleep by the Sox front office or by Sox fans.”

    I suspect they’re losing no sleep over Wagner either given that they agreed not to pick up his option when they traded for him last summer. I believed they turned down an option on Saito too.

  98. GreenBeret7 December 3rd, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    Chip
    December 3rd, 2009 at 2:27 pm
    how many prospects can you name that the yankees traded in the last 10 years that have come back and haunt them

    Mike Lowell

    And, even though he’s been hurt off and on, after watching Giambi for all those years how could you not miss Nick Johnson?

    ————————————————————

    Oh, please. Nick Johnson has had one season in the last 6 years that could even considered close to average production for a first baseman. What value does a first baseman whose only skill is drawing some walks. His fielding over that time has been average and in two of those years, it was below average. A FA under .990 for a first baseman is pretty ugly.

  99. ray (sox fan) December 3rd, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Nick in SF
    December 3rd, 2009 at 2:47 pm
    “Saito will be 40 years old before next season starts.”

    The stem cells are much younger. Theo blew it again.”

    ________________________________________________________

    My friend Nick in SF……I guess we shall just agree to disagree on this one.

  100. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Rich –

    1. I really don’t care what BA thinks; I can recognize talent on my own. Neither the Mets nor the Philies traded a young pitcher with Hughes or Joba’s established ML talent, nor did they include a generational talent like Montero. a “generational talent” come on. The kid is 19 and doesn’t have a position. He’s got a heck of a bat but so far all it has done is hit AA pitching.

    2. Anthopolus may not make the same “bad” decision, but in any business, comparable sales are used to set market value. For example, they are a key factor in appraising a house. So while some dumb GM may decide to overpay, no reasonable GM would, and my post is based on what is reasonable. and if Anthopolus is reasonable then he knows that rather than take a bad deal he’s better off taking no deal, letting Halladay play out his contract, offer him arbitration and take the two compensation picks

    3. If the Jays don’t deal Halladay, they lose him for picks because their owner has said that he won’t re-sign with them. That’s the same situation that the Twins were in.Those picks would still be better than taking lesser players and who knows, maybe with Halladay for another season they make the playoffs – Tampa got there, why not Toronto with good young pitchers around Roy and some quality position players in Lind, Hill, Snyder…

    4. If the Jays want as pitiful a haul as Bill Smith got because he didn’t want to trade Santana in the AL, then he is as dumb as Bill Smith, and he can explain that meager return to his fans.Yes, but if he trades Halladay to the Yankees and doesn’t come away with a clear win – two studs – then he’s going to have to explain that to his fans everytime Roy comes back to Toronto in road grays. It’s a lose lose

    5. The CC deal was made before the economy fell off of a cliff. But either way, that’s one comparable compared to two, so it’s the exception rather than the rule. and the Johan deal was made before the CC deal so that argument really doesn’t hold water. As for it being the exception rather than the rule, when you’re talking about a sample size of three I don’t think you can talk in those terms.

  101. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    Montero is also bringing plus-plus offensive potential to a position-C- where it rarely exists.

    IF he stays at catcher and IF something doesn’t happen between now and then to derail him

  102. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    Comet
    yes, that is it! I knew you would know, thanks.

  103. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    All Atlanta has done is replace Gonzalez and Soriano with older, cheaper options.

  104. Bad Review December 3rd, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    Actually, the CC deal wasn’t made before the economy fell off the cliff. I remember every one saying how much the Yankees are spending in a bad economy.

  105. Phil December 3rd, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    I think a Halladay trade is pretty likely. The Yanks want another starter who can start a playoff game for them. The choices are basically trading for Halladay or signing Lackey. They could trade for Lowe, but he’s older, sucked last year and has a bad contract. Now, Lackey would cost a pick, and is looking to be significantly overpain give his health and FIP’s over the past few years. Halladay is the much better pitcher, and if he can be had without giving up Hughes, Joba or Montero, he’ll probably be a Yankee. And with Halladay’s NTC, apparent desire to be a Yankee, refusal to accept a trade after ST, I think he’ll probably be a Yankee.

  106. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    Actually, the CC deal wasn’t made before the economy fell off the cliff. I remember every one saying how much the Yankees are spending in a bad economy.

    Talking about the trade that sent him to Milwaukee from Cleveland – not the contract.

  107. Nick in SF December 3rd, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    kd, Oregon sounds good on paper, but OSU has looked pretty good too. I don’t know how much football you watched over the Thanksgiving weekend, but there were upsets galore in rivalry games… my gut tells me that Oregon wins but take the 10 points (or tease it up a little).

    I assume you were at the Big Game? One of the best I’ve ever seen. I flew out on a red eye that night from SFO, and there was a Stanfurd chump still wearing his Beat Cal t-shirt on my flight. I snapped a photo of him and will try to post it on my flickr page soon.

    I think the Emerald Bowl would want Stanfurd just to get a different team from last year, but who knows. New Year’s in El Paso and Jaurez sounds good.

  108. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    1. ” ‘generational talent’ come on. The kid is 19 and doesn’t have a position. He’s got a heck of a bat but so far all it has done is hit AA pitching.”

    Who cares? He projects to hit 40 HRs; that’s incredibly rare. Do you really think that if he can’t stick at C that he can’t play the OF better than, for example, Dunn, or play 1B and be worth a ton there, let alone that the AL has a DH, so he’s covered no matter what?

    2. “and if Anthopolus is reasonable then he knows that rather than take a bad deal he’s better off taking no deal, letting Halladay play out his contract, offer him arbitration and take the two compensation picks”

    McAllister, IPK, AJack, and Melancon is FAR better than two picks in the 25-45 range (because Halladay will sign with a good team).

    3. “Those picks would still be better than taking lesser players and who knows, maybe with Halladay for another season they make the playoffs – Tampa got there, why not Toronto with good young pitchers around Roy and some quality position players in Lind, Hill, Snyder…”

    See 2.

    4. “Yes, but if he trades Halladay to the Yankees and doesn’t come away with a clear win – two studs – then he’s going to have to explain that to his fans everytime Roy comes back to Toronto in road grays. It’s a lose lose”

    There is no panacea. The assets that I proposed is a win for him.

    5. “and the Johan deal was made before the CC deal so that argument really doesn’t hold water. As for it being the exception rather than the rule, when you’re talking about a sample size of three I don’t think you can talk in those terms.”

    You’re right. Others had a far better answer for 5. than I did. Montero >>> LaPorta

    (How do you bold?)

  109. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    The Yanks want another starter who can start a playoff game for them.

    There’s a lot of middle ground between Roy Halladay and Chad Gaudin.

    I think the Yankees would like to believe that if they make the playoffs this year that Joba Chamberlain or Phil Hughes would be capable of starting a playoff game for them.

    Again – the Yankees believe they have the horses at the front of the rotation – they’re looking for someone who may be able to slot into the back of the rotation if Hughes and Joba fall flat.

  110. Sal December 3rd, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    Hopefully the Jays realize that the Yankees have better young talent to give up than Boston does. Yanks can point to players on their minor league championship teams over the past 3 years. AA Trenton won 2 in a row, AAA Scranton Wilkes Barre won 1, and the big club just won. Pretty impressive organization.

  111. Phil December 3rd, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    We’ll see what happens.

  112. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    Rich -

    To bold you do without the dashes at the front of what you want bolded and at the end (to do Italics you just use an i instead of a b)

    As for the rest:

    Montero – Ask Todd Hundley or Mike Piazza how easy it is for a catcher to move to LF or 1b. And until he gets to ML pitching let’s just calm down about him being a 40 HR guy.

    McAllister, IPK, Jackson and Melancon are not a win for Anthopolus – you’re talking about two guys who at best project to the back of the rotation, a middle reliever and one very good prospect in Jackson who strikes out a ton and had very little power last season.

  113. Tom December 3rd, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    McAllister, IPK, AJack, and Melancon is FAR better than two picks in the 25-45 range (because Halladay will sign with a good team).
    ________________
    Send Cashman this recommendation ! This keeps Phil and Joba

  114. Phil December 3rd, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    Melancon profiles as a closer.

  115. Nick in SF December 3rd, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    This seems pretty obvious, but the Jays would presumably also enjoy saving $15+ million on a (great) pitcher who wants to be elsewhere.

    I didn’t think Toronto could keep Doc last season after JP dangled him and he said he wanted to leave and I was wrong about that, so maybe they can keep him through this season too, but… I really don’t think so. It’s gone too far. Gotta move the Doc. Gotta get the best deal back for him.

  116. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    Rich –

    Sorry, not sure why the bolding instructions didn’t show up the way I wanted. Anyway, you put a B between at the start of what you want bolded and a /B between at the end.

  117. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 3:06 pm

    the b and /b go between

  118. raymagnetic December 3rd, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    “Ok, well you’re entitled to your opinion – but I think that the view around MLB is a little different. I think some teams look at Bucholtz and say “he’s a starter” whereas they look at Joba and aren’t sure and look at Hughes and wonder if he can physically hold up to a full season of starting.”

    Well Chip, none of the three have EVER pitched a full season in the majors.

    Also, it depends on what innings the pitchers pitch, as in how high leverage were the innings they pitch.

    Being that both Chamberlain and Hughes pitched in high leverage innings, their one inning is worth more than a regular inning.

    Look around the interwebs for articles about reliever innings and leverage and you may be enlightened.

    You could also go on Fangraphs and see exactly what Hughes/Chamberlain/Buccholz were worth to their respective teams.

    Guess who’s worth is the lowest?

    You’re right though, I am entitled to my opinion, as you are yours, regardless of how wrong it is.

  119. pat December 3rd, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    Polanco to Philly to play 3rd should take care of the Lowell to Philly talk.

  120. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    ok, not sure why it’s not showing up

    anyway – google how to bold in HTML and you’ll see…easy stuff.

  121. Ed - slacking in class now December 3rd, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    “Polanco to Philly to play 3rd should take care of the Lowell to Philly talk.”

    i still think Polanco sliding to 3B would be a bad idea. but then again, look how A-Rod’s transition turned out.

  122. kd December 3rd, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    nick,

    the big game was glorious. we went out in shallow alto bars afterwards in full cal gear.

    i’d love to see that picture.

    you may be right about oregon state, i just think oregon is more hungry

  123. jake December 3rd, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    “You’re right though, I am entitled to my opinion, as you are yours, regardless of how wrong it is.”

    raymagnetic…was it not your opinion that you stated several times that Boston would end up in fourth place this last season behind not only New York, but Tampa Bay and Toronto?

  124. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    Melancon profiles as a closer.

    I’m happy for him – Toronto has a few guys who “profile as closers” in Accardo, Downs and League and they can also use a guy who doesn’t work out as a starter and move him to the pen – worked for Lidge, Papelbon, Soria, and some guy, Mariano something…

    You’re right though, I am entitled to my opinion, as you are yours, regardless of how wrong it is.

    My only “opinion” on the issue was that rather than twisting the stats to show what you wanted them to show you should have used the proper stats. Hughes and Joba were dominant in the pen and I would wager that Bucholtz would be too if he pitched there. But as starters all three have been average at best.

    I happen to believe that Hughes will be a better starter than Bucholtz; Joba I’m not so sure about since I think he’ll eventually get shifted to the pen.

    As for Bucholtz being worth less to his team than Joba and Hughes are to the Yankees, again, that takes into account their work out of the pen.

  125. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    I didn’t realize that html worked here:

    Teams don’t want to give up their best young talent and $100+ mil. So, my proposed deal is probably the best that Anthopolus can get.

    Thanks.

  126. raymagnetic December 3rd, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    “raymagnetic…was it not your opinion that you stated several times that Boston would end up in fourth place this last season behind not only New York, but Tampa Bay and Toronto?”

    Source?

  127. sab December 3rd, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Chip
    December 3rd, 2009 at 2:27 pm
    how many prospects can you name that the yankees traded in the last 10 years that have come back and haunt them

    Mike Lowell

    And, even though he’s been hurt off and on, after watching Giambi for all those years how could you not miss Nick Johnson?
    ———————————————————-
    Chip – Mike Lowell was/is a nice player but I’m not sure you can bunch him in the “he haunted the yankees” for trading him group – plus if they keep lowell they wouldn’t have had charlie hayes, scott brosius and more importantly aaron boone and alex rodriguez – so i’m saying no to the lowell haunted the yankees

    as for nick johnson – any player that has been on the DL more than carl pavano is absolutely not a player that haunts any ex team that traded him…

  128. raymagnetic December 3rd, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    Chip,

    You just don’t get it. It’s not just about them pitching in the pen. It’s about leverage, and how well they pitched in the pen.

  129. Tom December 3rd, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    Jay Buhner haunted the Yankees more than anybody they sent away.

  130. Phil December 3rd, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    Halladay’s NTC is gonna tell the story here. He’s been putting incrementally more pressure on them to get him where he wants to go and before ST.

  131. Rich in NJ December 3rd, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Anyway, I would rather save my big chips for Josh Johnson in a year.

  132. Betsy December 3rd, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    GLove, not recently – I’m talking about in the past. I just wonder if Cash is gunshy about trading any potentially very good players because they could come back and haunt them. It’s a fine line he has to walk – knowing which ones to trade, which to keep; knowing that some players he may love ought to be traded to serve the present needs of the team. Remember Cash did say last year that he can’t look the core in their eyes and talk to them only about the future when they’re relatively close to the ends of their careers.

  133. S.o.S. December 3rd, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    So i was thinking of the funny sitcom THE OFFICE the other day and was convinced that it is the funniest sitcom ever.

    What was your favorite 80′S sicoms were funny back then?

    Threes company
    Cosby Show
    Family Ties
    Perfect Strangers
    Different Strokes
    Growing Pains
    Whats Happening
    Sledge Hammer
    Webster
    Night Court
    Cheers
    Alf
    ???

    My favorite has to be Threes Company.

  134. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes December 3rd, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    And until he gets to ML pitching let’s just calm down about him being a 40 HR guy.
    =====

    I am going take exception to this, whether Rich does or not.

    Telling someone to “calm down” implies they are in some sort of high state of emotion, coloring their reason, while you yourself are the picture of rationality and clear judgment.

    In a word – it’s a self-serving and condescending crock, and transparent in trying to demean another’s observation. It’s the classic BS that goes on non-stop here.

    I’ve seen Montero often enough to grasp that someone predicting he’s capable of a 40 HR season in the majors is not uninformed, giddy cheerleading or, gag, “prospect hugging.” In the case of Montero, his bat is unilaterally considered exceptional RIGHT NOW.

    Doesn’t every surmise or prediction about prospects or players who may not have yet done what’s predicted for them in terms of upside come with the built-in proviso that it may not actually occur?? Does a fellow poster really have to endure this little finger-wagging reminder from another?

    Wow – you must be a genius: let him do it against major league pitching, first. Well, how about we just shut down the board right now?

    We’re not talking about Kelvin DeLeon, who was still in short season in ’09.

    Montero moved seamlessly from A to AA and likely would have been minor league player of the year had he not gotten hurt.

    And the guy hasn’t played a minute of ML ball yet – yeah – let’s crush anyone who can recognize an obviously great talent because others need it telegraphed between the eyes.

    Finally, if it’s over the top to predict that Jesus Montero will be in the 40HR club at the major-league level, then I daresay any and ALL predictions are henceforth suspect, and should be withheld.

  135. raymagnetic December 3rd, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    Chip,

    This is an article from 2006 about Papelbon and his worth in the pen and reliever versus starter innings.

    http://www.baseballprospectus......cleid=5471

  136. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    You just don’t get it. It’s not just about them pitching in the pen. It’s about leverage, and how well they pitched in the pen.

    And you don’t get it. Relief pitchers are a lot easier to find than starters. If you have a choice between two guys and one of them has shown that he can pitch in a playoff rotation and stay healthy while pitching to an ERA of around 5 you will still gamble on him ahead of the guy who has been a revelation in the pen but hurt/ineffective in the rotation in a similar number of innings.

    If you were right and that “leverage” and how well someone pitches in the pen were more important than whether someone starts or relieves then K-Rod would be making more money than AJ Burnett.

  137. Phil December 3rd, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    “prospect hugger” is a taunt launched only by the dumb.

  138. Nick in SF December 3rd, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    “i just think oregon is more hungry”

    Maybe, but OSU hasn’t been to the Rose Bowl since… ’65??? They should be pretty hungry too.

    Stay tuned, I’m going to post that pic right now so I don’t forget.

  139. Ed - slacking in class now December 3rd, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    SOS,

    Married with Childen was the funniest!!

  140. kd December 3rd, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    will montrero start the season in aaa?

  141. Phil December 3rd, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    kd,

    probably not, but he could.

  142. sab December 3rd, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    Jay Buhner haunted the Yankees more than anybody they sent away.
    —————————————————–

    that may be as close to someone who the yankees traded away that came back to haunt them – but that was more than 10 years ago (since cashman took over)…and how many people have cried (except for george costanza’s father)over that trade…buhner was a nice player but was hurt alot and only had 4 or 5 years that he truly was an all star (and maybe even a juicer)..

  143. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    He’s been putting incrementally more pressure on them to get him where he wants to go and before ST.

    That’s not exactly true – all he’s done is say that if they want to trade him this winter fine. But that he’s not going to go through the season with rumors over his head like he did last year and so when the season starts he’s not going to waive his NTC.

    I wouldn’t say that actually takes the pressure off Anthopolus – it sets a hard deadline and if he hasn’t gotten a proposal that he likes by Spring Training he can say “ok, well that’s that.” and move on to other business.

  144. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes December 3rd, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    Phil
    December 3rd, 2009 at 3:24 pm
    “prospect hugger” is a taunt launched only by the dumb.
    ====
    ….and the lazy.

  145. Iconoclast December 3rd, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    Giuseppe, great to see you back and to know you’re home and feeling better (if not exactly yourself yet.)You were a favorite over at the old Newsweek blog and I’m happy to be reading your posts again. I hope the recovery speeds up!

    All the best.

  146. 86w183 December 3rd, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    Ted Lilly for Jeff Weaver didn’t turn out so hot.

    Willie McGee for Bob Sykes

    Fred McGriff for Dale Murray

    those are three beauties

  147. upstate kate December 3rd, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    SOS-
    Barney Miller
    Hogans Heros

  148. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes December 3rd, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    kd
    December 3rd, 2009 at 3:26 pm
    will montrero start the season in aaa?
    ===

    I’m guessing he will start at Trenton, but that there’ll be a very short window to see him there. So if anyone who hasn’t seen this kid at the MiL level and wants to do so and lives within striking distance of Trenton, you may want to take an early season trip.

  149. kd December 3rd, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    nick, you may be right.

    please post a link. i loved watching all those farm kids sulk that night in palo alto

  150. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 3rd, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Wings was decent

    odd couple
    Bob Newhart
    MASH

  151. Phil December 3rd, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Chip,

    He used it to block a trade to Texas, block a trade to Minnesota, and now he is using to say trade me by the end of ST, or forget about every trading me. There’s only one more step.

  152. Nick in SF December 3rd, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    here you go:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/9.....155653697/

  153. Tom December 3rd, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    Buhner had a gun of an arm. Ala Jesse Barfield. Another bad trade. Leiter for Barfield.

  154. S.o.S. December 3rd, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    Not sure where Brandon is these days. But he would say young outfielder with attitude problems we gave the Pirates in the Marte trade. Even though he hasnt stepped foot on to a major league field yet.

    I would like to change my answer to Married with Children. Final Answer. Cant believe i forgot that show.

  155. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    This is an article from 2006 about Papelbon and his worth in the pen and reliever versus starter innings.

    Lovely article – however it doesn’t really have anything to do with your argument. In that article they were talking about Papelbon’s potential as a starter because they had no frame of reference – he hadn’t started in the majors so there was no way of knowing what he could or couldn’t do. Not the case here.

    While Hughes and Joba haven’t pitched a ton in the majors as starters they do have a body of work to look at and what is undeniable is that as relief pitchers they were better than they were as starters. Also undeniable is that while Hughes has been in the rotation for parts of three seasons, two of those stints resulted in injuries that sidelined him for long stretches of time.

    Will Hughes and Joba improve as starters – probably – but is it assured, nope. And therefor unless a team is evaluating them as potential relievers their relief stats don’t matter.

    Go around the league – you’ll find very good relief pitchers on every team – you think that those pitchers are more valuable than a mid rotation starter? You think many of those pitchers could be midrotation starters? Heck most of them are in the pen because they couldn’t hack it as back end starters.

  156. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    He used it to block a trade to Texas, block a trade to Minnesota, and now he is using to say trade me by the end of ST, or forget about every trading me. There’s only one more step.

    Phil – I just refuse to believe that there is a GM in this league who is dumb enough to make a deal when he has no leverage to work with. If it were me, and I wasn’t offered a deal I wanted for Roy and the deals I did want he vetoed I would say “fine, you’ve got two choices, retire and give us back the money or go out there and pitch when your turn comes up. You can pick your team next year as a free agent.”

    It was an awful mistake by Bill Smith and it would be an awful mistake now by Anthopolus.

  157. kd December 3rd, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    thanks nick.

    so sad, how satnfurd teaches bad grammer. beat kal is actually be at cal, which of course means, “i pay triple for a third of the education.”

  158. Giuseppe Franco December 3rd, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    Iconoclast December 3rd, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    Giuseppe, great to see you back and to know you’re home and feeling better (if not exactly yourself yet.)You were a favorite over at the old Newsweek blog and I’m happy to be reading your posts again. I hope the recovery speeds up!

    ———–

    Thank you very much for the kind words. They are appreciated.

    What was your moniker on the Newsday blog? I see Chip hasn’t changed.

    It’s a shame Newsday killed that place. You could actually carry on a discussion during the regular season.

    Sometimes, this place has too many people going back and forth during the summer months and the author(s) create new threads rather quickly.

  159. Phil December 3rd, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    I don’t care if Anthopolous makes a mistake. They could have traded him at the deadline.

  160. DaSaint007 December 3rd, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    Good discussion on here, sorry I missed it earlier.

    The Yankee minor league system is in very good shape right now. The names bandied about, Kennedy, Melancon, McAllister, Nova, Brackman, Montero, Romine, Jackson, Russo and others, reflect the hard work Cashman and his team has done the past 4 years to rebuild the system. Most won’t make it to the major-league team, so they’re trade depth which is a good thing.

    At this point, I don’t think that the Yankees have to trade top major or minor league talent/propspects: Joba, Hughes, Montero and Jackson. IF they can agree to a window for an extension, then multiple lesser free agents can be offered. If Toronto refuses, Halladay will most likely play out the year in Toronto, declare free agency after the season, and possibly sign with the Yankees – if the Yankees want him compared to Lee, Beckett, Webb, all of whom will be available next year. If they do sign him then, all they give up is 2 draft picks, and who knows where those picks are anyway, as it’s dependent on record.

    Kennendy, like Hughes, will be innings limited and therefore is scheduled to be in AAA next season. Remember, he’s coming of an anyurism surgery, and a follow-up procedure. He impressed in the AFL and that’s great, but I’d be ecstatic if he were the piece in the trade because he’s of little value to the big team next season anyway, and is still recovering. Don’t get me wrong, I do like Kennedy, more than Joba actually, but he’s of no real value to the team next season as a starter.

    Likewise, the Yankees have tremendous catching depth in the minors, Montero, Romine, Cervelli, Pellitere (sp?), and a couple others that have been well regarded. Most are therefore tradable, that’s what the depth was created for.

    If Boston were to pull the trigger, it would be because they think that 2010 is their last chance at a championship with their core players before needing to rebuild. Halladay + Beckett + Lester + Dice-K is a pretty good starting 4, and their #5 would be Wakefield, but after that, Beckett could depart, Wakefield is OLD, they have a hole in LF, an aging 3B, a catcher that should be DH, an aging DH, and a backup catcher as their Captain.

    Boston needs this more than the Yankees, but the Yankees have the leverage and therefore no need to trade prime players. They can restock the Jays system with multiple talented players without Joba, Hughes, or Montero.

  161. S.o.S. December 3rd, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    Lovely article – however it doesn’t really have anything to do with your argument. In that article they were talking about Papelbon’s potential as a starter because they had no frame of reference – he hadn’t started in the majors so there was no way of knowing what he could or couldn’t do. Not the case here.

    While Hughes and Joba haven’t pitched a ton in the majors as starters they do have a body of work to look at and what is undeniable is that as relief pitchers they were better than they were as starters. Also undeniable is that while Hughes has been in the rotation for parts of three seasons, two of those stints resulted in injuries that sidelined him for long stretches of time.

    Will Hughes and Joba improve as starters – probably – but is it assured, nope. And therefor unless a team is evaluating them as potential relievers their relief stats don’t matter.

    Go around the league – you’ll find very good relief pitchers on every team – you think that those pitchers are more valuable than a mid rotation starter? You think many of those pitchers could be midrotation starters? Heck most of them are in the pen because they couldn’t hack it as back end starters.

    Phil – I just refuse to believe that there is a GM in this league who is dumb enough to make a deal when he has no leverage to work with. If it were me, and I wasn’t offered a deal I wanted for Roy and the deals I did want he vetoed I would say “fine, you’ve got two choices, retire and give us back the money or go out there and pitch when your turn comes up. You can pick your team next year as a free agent.”

    It was an awful mistake by Bill Smith and it would be an awful mistake now by Anthopolus.

    ================

    Chip,
    I just wana know how the hell do you type all this in 4 minutes? And here i thought David can type.

  162. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    I don’t care if Anthopolous makes a mistake. They could have traded him at the deadline.

    Well that’s why Riccardi isn’t there anymore – he could have had a sweetheart deal from Boston at the deadline and didn’t pull the trigger and then the floor fell out when the Phillies traded for Lee and took themselves out of the race. That said, I don’t think that’s going to force Anthopolus to make a bad deal for the sake of making a deal.

    S.o.S.

    I got some mad skillz

  163. Nick in SF December 3rd, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    :arrow:

  164. tex's friend December 3rd, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    Josh Johnson had a good year and one in 2006. Why exactly do we think he would excel in the AL East?

  165. Chip December 3rd, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    DaSaint -

    Depth is a wonderful thing – but of the names you mentioned in the pitching: Kennedy, McAllister, Nova – no one really knows what they are – two of them are projected as back end starters. Brackman could be a stud but he first has to work his way back to being effective before we can even consider him a legit prospect at this point.

    As for the catchers – Pillitere is probably a career minor leaguer – maybe a back up in the majors; Cervelli is a backup in the majors. Montero may or may not be able to catch. In addition to Romaine they have a couple of other kids, but none close enough to project.

    You can’t just throw a bunch of back end pitchers and back up catchers on a pile and say – “look, we’re giving you so many prospects, you can’t possibly want more than that.” Again, it’s quality vs. quantity…A GM with an asset on the block would rather take 1 high level prospect who has the chance to be special than 4 or 5 guys who might someday crack the majors.

  166. Pat M. December 3rd, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    Mr. Franco, you were missed…….I understand that Doc Halladay is a very tempting prize, however unless the price is right in terms of the players being exchanged it ain’t happenning……Unless Cashman comes up with an alternative to Damon ( Granderson ) and trim some fat from the roster, it’s going to be a difficult task to pull off……Do they want Doc, yes, can they pull this off, maybe……..Young Master Hughes is going to be an outstanding MLB Starting Pitcher……Often wonder how good he’d be already if it weren’t for those two fluke injuries…..

  167. champ809 December 3rd, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    Chip

    the terms back end starter,front of the rotation starter middle of the rotation starter are scout/development terms that are used to descibe primarily a pitchers “stuff” more than anything else…

    So an Ian Kennedy because he doesn’t possess a plus fastball is projected as more of a back of the rotation type pitcher but he could very well turn out to be a HOF pitcher like a Maddux.
    More important than the standard terms is the actual performance of the player on the field.In the case of Kennedy he has been an ace at every level of baseball that he’s played and etablished himself at in his amatuer and brief professional career outperforming his raw stuff with his pitchability.

  168. DaSaint007 December 3rd, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    Chip,

    I wasn’t implying that you can simply offer quantity over quality at all. That said, 1 high end/quality prospect isn’t enough for a star player the caliber of Halladay. No, my intent was to show that the Yankees have talented depth in the system, so that combinations of players could be offered from different levels without trading most of your premier prospects.

  169. champ809 December 3rd, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    as far as the top catchers in the org Cervelli is far down on the list as far as projected ability goes offensively behind Montero,Romine,Gary Sanchez,John Murphy,John Farnham to name them

  170. DaSaint007 December 3rd, 2009 at 5:01 pm

    as far as the top catchers in the org Cervelli is far down on the list as far as projected ability goes offensively behind Montero,Romine,Gary Sanchez,John Murphy,John Farnham to name them
    ————————————

    Champ,

    What are you a lawyer? No one mentioned ‘offensive’ ability specifically. We’re not about to start dissecting who is better ‘offensively’ vs. ‘defensively’. Fact is that Cervelli is GOOD ENOUGH to possibly replace a darn good ‘defensive’ catcher in Jose Molina next season.

    The Yankees created that depth for a reason, whether its organizational just to fill up the Minor League rosters, or to hopefully groom major-league caliber catchers for the big team. Montero could be a tremendous catcher – or 1B or DH – time will tell. But if he’s not catching, then someone else needs to, right?

  171. NH Yankee fan December 3rd, 2009 at 7:32 pm

    All this talk about Casey Kelly and correct me if i am wrong but i believe he was picked by Boston w/ the pick right after NY took Gerrit Cole. Obviously a bad decision on both levels.

  172. Steve December 3rd, 2009 at 10:25 pm

    Chris Davis? I was excited that he mentioned Hughes until I saw the other guy he mentioned.

    Davis sucks.

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