All the noise that’s fit to print
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 08, 2009 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Just like he does every day of the Winter Meetings, Yankees general manager Brian Cashman just met with the beat writers. We all rode the elevator to his floor, we gathered into his hotel suite and then we waited.
“I know there’s a lot of noise out there,” Cashman said. “Clearly I can’t speak to the noise.”
Noise became the code word for the Curtis Granderson trade, but Cashman would not comment on the ”noise” in any way, shape or form. Someone asked whether the Yankees need for Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui had changed. Cashman couldn’t say. Someone asked how long it might take seven hypothetical players to take seven hypothetical physicals. Cashman wasn’t sure.
“I know a lot of this is silly,” he said. “I apologize.”
Not that any of us expected anything different, it was just funny to play the game for a while, to ask about the trade without asking about the trade. When its finalized, Cashman will talk about it, but he said he didn’t expect to be able to talk about anything new tonight. For tonight, it’s all just noise.
• Cashman met with the agents for both Hideki Matsui and Andy Pettitte today. He called the meeting with Matsui’s agent, “informative.” He said he met with Pettitte’s agents more than once but he wouldn’t say whether things have moved forward. “We’ll just keep talking,” he said.
• There is a report that Matsui has been working in the outfield, trying to prove he can play the field. Cashman said he understood that Matsui would like to play the outfield again, and that Matsui’s value as a free agent will go up if he proves he’s able to do so, but “my interest in him would be as a DH,” Cashman said.
• The Yankees spent part of the day finalizing their plan for Thursday’s Rule 5 pick. “We’re lined up and prepared to go and have someone in mind,” Cashman said. There were “a few guys we had interest in” leading into the Brian Bruney trade discussions.
• Cashman has literally not left his room all day. He said he was working on things until 12:30 in the morning last night and he wasn’t sure how long he’d be up tonight. All agents have come to his room and so far all other teams have come to his room when discussing trades noise.
• In case you’re interested, Cashman said he gets a lot of trade offers through text message. Wonder how many of them get a : ) and how many get a LOL.
Love the deal!
What a grand deal.
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
December 8th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Simon,
Is there any logical reason that you have been bashing a guy who played above average defense in RF and put up a 129 OPS+ last season (Swisher) or did he spurn you for an autograph one day and you are holding some strange grudge?
————————-
Given your lack of a response I guess it is pretty safe to assume you hold some personal grudge against Swisher.
Granderson will fit in well in NY. Plays hard, good clubhouse guy.
Coke and Kennedy can be replaced. Don’t know how good Jackson will be.
Very good trade for NY.
Nick Swisher:
2006: .864 OPS
2007: .836 OPS
2008: .743 OPS
Traded to the Yankees
2009: .869 OPS
Curtis Granderson:
2007: .913 OPS
2008: .858 OPS
2009: .780 OPS
Traded to the Yankees
2010: ??? ???
Too many people are making a big deal on his 2009 season. Look at his home/away splits, and you will see:
.696 OPS at home
.861 OPS on the road
now replace his Comerica projections with the short porch YS projections and you have a damn good player.
My personal lineup for 2010
1 Jeter
2 Damon
3 Tex
4 Arod
5 Cano
6 Posada
7 DeRosa
8 Swisher
9 Granderson
9
Marlins turned down Justin Smoak and Neftali Feliz for Josh Johnson.
Welcome back to the blog Umer
Isn’t it Great? Isn’t it Grand? It’s a Home Run for Curtis Granderson!
Marlins turned down Justin Smoak and Neftali Feliz for Josh Johnson.
—
yeesh.
mick December 8th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
I wouldn’t boo Damon for going elsewhere. He was great for the Yankees and helped them this year.
————————————————-
abdab-
I am just wondering where Johnny thinks he’s going.
________________
I don’t think Damon thinks anything is that far along. I think he would still love to come back to the Yankees, but he isn’t giving a discount to do so.
I understand that fans always think that players wanting to be paid the highest they can get are just mercenaries, but most of us do our jobs for the most we can be paid to them.
I just read that offer for Johnson on MLBTradeRumors. Guess you can rule out getting him without giving up Montero. Jeez.
I have mixed emotions on this trade. Its funny how much I fell invested in Austin and Ian. Both are close to fulfilling their MLB destinies, whatever that may be. I would have like to see them reach their potential as Yankee’s.
On the other hand, if you have ever heard Granderson talk, you know that the Yankee’s got themselves not only a helluva ballplayer, but a top notch person as well.
Yeah that Ranger package Chad is way over the top. Yanks would have had to send Joba, Montero at least.
If that offer doesn’t get Josh Johnson then no team gets Josh Johnson.
Boston fans who think Theo just has to call and ask for Marlin All Stars and they are handed them can give up that pipe dream.
It was sad to see some of the reaction of friends of mine who are Tiger fans re: losing Granderson.
When the fans are that upset, you know you’re getting something special.
Can’t wait to see him patrolling CF.
Josh Johnson’s agent has also said that he’s worth 18 or 20 mil when he reaches free agency.
Granted, he’s 2 years away from that but the cost in prospects and salary is way too high.
The Yanks can win without him in the meantime and sign him or King Felix (if he’s available) in 2 years.
I like Damon and wouldn’t mind having him back. However if he signs a one year deal then what are the Yankees going to do in 2011 in LF? They just traded the guy that they were planning on taking an outfield spot? Sign Crawford? Won’t he cost just as much as Holliday if he’s even available. Sign Werth? He will be expensive also and may not be available either.
Signing a short term outfielder is holding the spot for who exactly especially since AJax is gone now. Unless they are OK with Melky and Swisher holding down the corner outfield spots longterm then why not just sign Holliday and set the outfield up for the next 3 or 4 years.
2 years can be an eternity in baseball. No telling what the next two years will tell us about the young arms that will be available.
The Marlins have said they weren’t dealing Johnson, I think they just proved that.
Yea if that don’t do it for Johnson then I’d say just cross him off the list, at least for this year.
“Signing a short term outfielder is holding the spot for who exactly?”
That’s what I want to know. And now that we have a table setter in his prime in Granderson, I don’t see the desperate need to sign Carl Crawford.
I think we need a slugger instead, someone who can demolish Lester and other assorted lefties in Fenway Park.
Holliday seems like the perfect fit.
I would love to get my hands on that phone.
Gammons is going to… wait for this you’ll be shocked! NESN.
Bret, It seems that you and I are the only ones who see how much of a no brainer Holliday is, especially if the price is around 80M which I have heard.
I just don’t see signing a short term guy and then going through this again next year when a quality option is available now.
LOL at Cash not being able to talk about the “noise” while it’s not official.
Bodh, I don’t know why I worded it like that. I understand why Cash wants to hold onto Dunn – I should have just said that I want to see more from Dunn and Melancon before they are counted on. Clearly they have ability and that’s a good place to start.
So, while I got off the computer at around 12:30 am, Cash was still working – I’m obviously a slacker. He’s got all the GM’s coming to him? I love it, lol
mlbtraderumors says that the sox talked about a deal for Granderson but wouldn’t part with Bucholtz and ellsbury
Oops, I mean agents……..
Scratch that, apparently Pete Abe was wrong, it is MLB Network.
Gammons isn’t working for ESPN anymore. I bet he’s auditioning for a GM JOB. lol
jennifer
December 8th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Gammons is going to… wait for this you’ll be shocked! NESN.
************************
So, in he’s not really leaving ESPN after all.
Okay he is going to be on both MLB Network and Nesn. Oh goodie, so now we have MLB Network and ESPN to be red sox channels.
http://www.nesn.com/2009/12/pe.....-2010.html
I like Peter Gammons, lol – whatever he feels about the Sox, he does like the Yankees. Plus, he’s a nice guy…….
I wonder when they’ll be holding the press conference to introduce the “noise”
Poor Swish still never got one.
I don’t think Crawford will get as big as contract as Holliday. His game is less power, more speed, and as he ages that speed bleeds away.
I could be very happy seeing Damon back. I would be very happy seeing them sign Holliday, but I just don’t see that happening. If his price comes down that much other clubs will sign him.
I don’t view the short contract as a big problem. It allows you to say goodbye when the player just doesn’t have it anymore, and may let you get a player who becomes available.
So Peter Gammons is going back home to NESN. It’s not like he is changing networks since ESPN is the same as NESN.
But who will I go to at ESPN for news tilted towards the Red Sox, besides 30 other people?
Gammons has always been a Red Sox homer but he’s also a tarheel so on principle I can’t hate him that much. He will be good on the MLB channel if that report is true
Betsy,
We’ll have to see. These kids will get their shot. Sooner or later, you have to let the kids show what they can do.
This is why I want to see both Joba and Hughes in the rotation.
It’s time to develop our own.
Blake,
I think the Yankees throw off people in the way that they treat personnel decisions.
For example, some here say the Yankees have said they aren’t interested in Holliday or he’s ‘not on their radar’.
However, by showing no immediate interest in Holliday they’re paying respect to Johnny Damon as they do with all long-time team contributors. The Yankees are a class organization with a reputation for honoring players like Damon. Since they do, other players take note and they’re more likely to want to be a part of it.
So when it comes to LF, the Yankees have to at least appear interested in making Damon a priority and make a public effort to keep him here.
I’m so convinced that they’re interested in Holliday that they’ve already made a contact to him and have agreed to give Damon some time to find his market before they publicly pursue Holliday.
Before you know it, they’ll let us in on the negotiations but not until there is some transition time and fans can see that the Yankees appreciated Johnny Damon and won’t just cast away past contributors when somebody new comes along.
Nice to see our reporters here report and not retort! In the past, Cashman would have been roundly chastized for not “stating the obvious.” JMO
***********
I know I’m probably old school with this, but I love hearing the player who says to his agent “The only team I want to play for is the Yankees. Get the job done.” Right now that would be Andy Pettitte.
Damon’s sucess this season, IMO, was directly tied into the way Girardi used him. Damon was sat on any number of occasions in order to save his legs and body for the postseason. 4 years? The guy and his agents are on majors beans. I was thinking more one year, maybe a team option for the second.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/10491164
Does getting Granderson hurt Yanks’ bid for Doc? — 6:42 p.m.
The Yankees acquisition of outfielder Curtis Granderson makes it more challenging for them to work out a deal to acquire right-handed pitcher Roy Haladay from Toronto, according to major league sources.
To acquire Granderson from Detroit in a three-team deal that also involved Arizona, the Yankees gave up right-handed pitcher Ian Kennedy, left-handed pitcher Phil Coke and outfielder Austin Jackson.
While the Yankees focus is on winning at the big league level, general manager Brian Cashman has also been careful not to strip the farm system, which is why after giving up the players to acquire Granderson will make it hard for the Yankees to put together the type of package Toronto wants. The Blue Jays focal point has been catching prospect Jesus Montero.
The Yankees still need pitching but indications are they could decide to turn to free agency, possibly even making a run at John Lackey, because they addressed the outfield field by signing Granderson, which means they don’t have to be as concerned about re-signing Hideki Matsui and Johnny Damon, both of whom are free agents.
Pete Abe reporting on the press session with Theo:
“He also reiterated several times that the coming season is a “bridge period” to the prospects who spent last season in Single A. The goal is to remain competitive while protecting the future.”
Bridge this!
It sounds like Cashman has a pretty crazy and stressful job right now but how many of you on here would LOVE to be in his shoes? It sounds like so much fun. We all love acting like armchair (or stool in Nick’s case) GM’s, imagine what it’s like to be the real thing.
Funny comments by my boy Cash, he knows about the deal, we know about the deal, he knows that we know and we know that he knows that we know. Ya know?
I’d like for Andy Pettitte to sign ASAP, then I hope Cash goes after Matsui and/or Mike Cameron. How about this for a lineup:
Jeter SS
Granderson LF
Teixeira 1B
Rodriguez 3B
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cano 2B
Swisher RF
Cameron CF
It’s a pipe dream, I know, but the offense and defense on that team would be off the charts.
“mlbtraderumors says that the sox talked about a deal for Granderson but wouldn’t part with Bucholtz and ellsbury”
Sounds about right. Reason the D’backs were in this deal is because the Yankees didn’t want to part w/ Phil and Joba and they had nobody else good enough to satisfy Detroit. Enter Scherzer.
http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/ar.....halla.html
We were never getting Doc anyway. That was a pipe dream. Cashman knew it, and now we have a CF’er. My only wish is that they get Cameron to hit the lefties.
I wonder why Gammons is leaving ESPN? I mean it’s a longer commute to MLB’s studio in Jersey and ESPN’s studio in Connecticut.
Patrick-I agree, and do NOT think it’s a pipe dream. After all Cameron’s a free agent. It’s a signing that would make perfect sense.
FYI, the term ‘Cameron’ has been banned from this blog and warrants immediate IP tracing and account deactivation.
Brett, I think its funny when people act like they know exactly what the Yankees are going to do or not do because they have no idea in reality..
I think Holliday is a perfect fit and I hope they go after him but who knows what cash has up his sleeve
The Nick Swisher Conference Call was one of the (audio) highlights of the last offseason.
Haha, I love the fact that Cash gets offers thru texting, I do that in my fantasy leagues, it would be so cool to do it as a GM.
That’s a bridge to nowhere.
Hey Bod, looks like we’re back to total agreement. I’ve been absent from the forum for a while so haven’t gotten in on hot stove talk but did notice some Doc posts today and immediately added my two cents – I don’t want Doc.
It isn’t that Doc isn’t a tremendous pitcher. He certainly is. But I have always been of the mind that the Yankees don’t need to be a team of superstars in order to achieve. On top of that, I love the youth aspect and also believe that both Joba and Hughes will be an important part of our future.
Doc is 32. I’m more into keeping our kids.
Blake,
It is funny. I did it last year with Tex. I was sure they weren’t going to sign him, especially once Cash traded for Swisher. On top of that, I didn’t want Tex here because of the money. The Holliday situation seems to be repeating itself. Fans think he’s too pricey and overrated – tags stuck on Tex by many last year, myself included.
“But I have always been of the mind that the Yankees don’t need to be a team of superstars in order to achieve”
Didn’t hurt ‘em any in ’09.
Personally I’d like to see the following for the rest of the offseason:
1. Sign Andy
2. Sign Matt Holliday. As mentioned in earlier posts with no Austin Jackson in the fold anymore, there is no point in having damon as a 1-2 year player as we develop Jackson to take over for him. Why not get the big bat in LF now?
3. Sign a low risk/high reward pitcher like Sheets
4. Sign another arm in the pen.
5. Resign Gaudin
Then go to war with that team
I barely understood the Cameron talk before the granderson trade but now it makes no sense at all. The guy is old, strikes out a ton, and plays a position the Yankees are now set at.
edit: the tex situation repeating itself.
The Yankees held their organizational meetings in Tampa and Matt Holliday was not on the agenda.
Given their luxury tax position, it’s a 40% premium on a Holliday contract.
They aren’t going there for him.
They aren’t going to have a 220-230 million dollar payroll.
CR, he probably won’t appear live in studio at the MLB Network. He’ll probably do shows via webstream from Fenway Field.
Maybe I’m alone, but I’m more interested in making the Yankees the best team they can be than in keeping the kids.
As it happens, I don’t want Halladay because I think keeping the kids makes more sense, but if it made more sense to trade for Halladay I’d absolutely do it.
Sure we don’t NEED to be a team of all-stars, but it certainly helps.
Bret,
Whether you like it or not, Mike Cameron is a great fit on this team. He’s a very good and consistent player.
CC
AJ
Andy
Joba
Phil
Chad G
We have all we need right there. If you add, you don’t add a superstar.
Jackson brothers on Larry King.
“Given their luxury tax position, it’s a 40% premium on a Holliday contract.”
It was a 40% premium on Granderson and anyone else they add this offseason. They were over the threshhold before the meetings started.
Most disastrous Mass. bridge since Chappaquidick?
Bodh, I’m all for developing our own……….
This has nothing to do with the Tex situation.
They eyed Mark Teixeira for 2 years.
They contacted Tex on the first day of free agency last year.
They have had no such contact with Holliday.
Bret, you can write it a 1,000 times.
Unless Matt Holliday wants a 2/20 contract, he’s not playing for the Yankees.
I want Sheets. If he goes on the DL we have plenty of depth – Gaudin, Kennedy, Aceves etc.
But he has a high upside and could be a #2 starter in the AL East.
Cashman should be fired over this move. He’s been quoted as saying his prioty is “pitching, pitching, pitching and LF”. So basically he meant GIVING UP pitching for a “part time” (my opinion) left fielder. Granderson’s AVG has dropped every year in each of the last three years ending with an embarassing .246. Where is he going to hit in this lineup? Second? Eighth? Ninth? I know that Chad, Sam and others have talked about getting a proven player vs an unknown in AJAX. But the yankees have been pumping up AJAX as the second coming. Why not use him as one of your main chips (along with Joba??) in a trade for Doc H. Giving up Coke leaves you with Marte as your Lefty specialist and even though he had a great post season, just remember what he did during the season. So unless they are planning on using Mike Dunn or a trade, i’m not sure about including Coke, he did get some big outs (and give up some HR’s too) but he did get a year of seasoning. As for Kennedy, i think his comeback late in the year for AAA and in the fall league proved well for him to garner interest from other teams, but he is replaceable with others on the roster.
“They aren’t going to have a 220-230 million dollar payroll.”…unless they trade for Roy “Doc” Halladay…
Wait, you might be in the majority. The thought of having a team filled with nothing but high-priced superstars actually makes me sick to my stomach. I have more altruism in me than competitor I fear. The Yankees won the world series last year without Doc. I’m willing to see it happen again without Doc.
Lineup:
1. Jeter SS
2. Granderson CF
3. Teixeira 1b
4. A-Rod 3b
5. Holliday LF
6. Posada C
7. Cano 2b
8. Swisher DH
9. Melky RF
Gardner, Cervelli, and whoever on the bench
On the contrary, the Cameron talks make PERFECT sense.
Sure he strikes out a lot, but that’s offset by his OBP and HR’s. He plays great defense, and would play LF with righties pitching and CF, with Melky in LF,when lefties are pitching.
But I only want him for one year.
Granderson is owed 25 million for the life of his contract. Holliday will make 18-20 million per year in his new deal.
Can you not see the difference?
It ain’t happening. Holliday is not coming to the Yankees.
Cashman doesn’t want to jinx anything— physicals have nixed deals in the past. Remember the Pirates deal needed to be tweaked the next morning because someone failed their physical?
SJ, what pitchers do you think the Yanks are focusing on now? The usual suspects? I know that they loved Sheets last year (his x-rays? not so much)…….anyone else? The problem with taking risks with a Sheets or whomever is that if they don’t pan out, what do you do? The Yankees have little pitching depth…….
trisha – OPPC forever – (new lucky picture from last day at the old Stadium) BRING ON THE GHOSTS!
December 8th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Hey Bod, looks like we’re back to total agreement. I’ve been absent from the forum for a while so haven’t gotten in on hot stove talk but did notice some Doc posts today and immediately added my two cents – I don’t want Doc.
It isn’t that Doc isn’t a tremendous pitcher. He certainly is. But I have always been of the mind that the Yankees don’t need to be a team of superstars in order to achieve. On top of that, I love the youth aspect and also believe that both Joba and Hughes will be an important part of our future.
Doc is 32. I’m more into keeping our kids.
====
Hi there sweetheart.
Did you see my holiday wishes to you?
Was wondering when we’d see you.
I think we need to pick up an arm for depth but otherwise just re-sign Andy and let the next generation’s seeds be planted – especially young pitching.
We have a nice mix of youth and experience.
Wishing you a peaceful and joy-filled holiday (in lieu of a card
).
Yeah I agree with blake. Cameron sucks, and didn’t he use steroids ? we don’t need anymore bad press when it comes to steroids.
trisha-All right. To each his/her own.
But I root for the laundry.
Betsy
Actually the yankees do have some pitchers to back up the club in case of a injury. Ivan Nova, Gaudin, Aceves, McAllister.
I think we’re going to read a lot of articles in NY papers in the next few days about what a great guy Granderson is – he really seems to be beloved in Detroit. Man, this clubhouse is stocked with quality people and players….
Cameron doesn’t suck. Not at all.
An OPS of 795 is certainly good enough for our use.
“This has nothing to do with the Tex situation.
They eyed Mark Teixeira for 2 years.
They contacted Tex on the first day of free agency last year”
One of the biggest myths perpetuated on this board is that Cashman swooped in the 11th hour to land Teixeira. They were all over him from 11/15/08 til they signed him a little more than a month later.
What I don’t get is if we sign damon, we will be in the same position in 2 years, who is going to play LF? We’d have to go out and get the big slugger on the market then. So why not go out and get Holliday now and get 2 more years out of a star LF?
Betsy,
They will focus on the usual pitching prospects.
The Granderson trade doesn’t change that focus.
Sheets will cost too much.
For depth, I want to sign Wang to a rehab deal.
Sj, were you in those meetings? Because if you weren’t then you have no clue what they really talked about.
I’d like to know what you’re longterm plan for LF is. If they sign Damon or whoever to a one year deal then what’s the plan for 2011? Jackson is gone so that’s out, sign Crawford or werth, that’s gonna cost money in a year they should be buying pitching.
Being that the GM’s and such can’t talk about the “noise”, how is it that the trade rumor mill is able to report on the players involved throughout the whole process?
Jeremy, I’ll give a little on Aceves and Gaudin, but they are not very good. That is to say, they’d be ok for a few starts here and there, but that’s it. I expect them mostly to be long-relievers. The other kids are AAAers who’ve never pitched in the majors. I just hope that Cashman is still able to get the “pitching, pitching, pitching” that he clearly wants.
Bret the Hitman
December 8th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
FYI, the term ‘Cameron’ has been banned from this blog and warrants immediate IP tracing and account deactivation.
Jeremy
December 8th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Yeah I agree with blake. Cameron sucks, and didn’t he use steroids ? we don’t need anymore bad press when it comes to steroids.
—————————-
Yes why would anyone here want arguably one of the 5 best CF in baseball?
Why does he suck exactly? Do your eyes tell you that? Do your biased opinions tell you that?
Well here are some facts:
He had a 111 OPS+ in and 10 UZR in CF last year
Mike Cameron would be a very good addition to this team, unless you think that strike outs count for more than one out.
Ok then – let’s see which of these free agents will want to prove themselves in the crucible of the AL East (instead of the very much weaker NL). Of course I would still love Doc, but….that’s probably a pipe dream at this point.
Signing Cameron for 8 million + Matsui for 10 million =
Granderson + Cameron replacing Melky + Damon = net upgrade in OBP and SLG , HUGE upgrade in defense
Melky becomes an elite 4th OFer where he is most valuable
Matsui back at DH
Lineup has no damn weaknesses as posted before
jeter-granderson-tex-arod-matsui-posada-cano-swisher-cameron
oh lordy that lineup will pick it and stick it.
In a year or two there might be a lot of other options for covering left field. You don’t need to have long term commitments in every position.
Trades, FA, someone from the farm, moving someone from one position to another, there are a lot more options open to the Yankees with the shorter term deal than locking up a player who might not be their ideal player to that position.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....-1.1643518
Blake,
they don’t need to have long term contracts at every position.
It’s simple math.
Once you realize they aren’t looking to add another 80-100 million dollar contract to a position player, and are still negotiating with Damon, you will realize Holliday is not coming to the Yankees.
“What I don’t get is if we sign damon, we will be in the same position in 2 years, who is going to play LF?”
Even if Damon is signed, wouldn’t Cabrera still be in LF for the most part, with Damon Dhing?
Gammons going to NESN? Wasn’t he already there?
Forget Matt Holliday. The only reason the Yankees are mentioned is to drive up his price. Holliday to Sox, Bay to Angels or Mariners is my guess.
Roy Halliday will not get traded, which is a shame for the Jays and their fans. Their starting pitching is not all that bad for 2010, by the way…they had a lot of good young guys on the DL last year. Not sure why they really need another SP. A bat like Montero is another issue…
Some of the fans here act just like politicians. They keep repeating the same thing over and over with the thought that saying it enough makes it so.
There was a time ( 1960 ) when the Superstar type players , who were sure lock Hall Of Fame destined recieved salaries of $ 100,00.00 Dollars….Today that figure is 100 million……I like Matt Holliday, however he’s not a 100 million dollar / HallOf Fame type ball player……
Forgot to mention that Granderson + Cameron = same cost as Damon but a huge upgrade overall next season
Signing Cameron for 8M and matsui for 10M = more than Holliday would cost and after next year you are right back in the same boat.
Sign Holliday and fill the DH from within
Bod – I didn’t see your holiday greeting for me!
I have actually enjoyed the time away mainly because my biggest desire was to revel in the gift our Yankees had just given us and felt no need whatsoever to worry about tomorrow, if you know what I mean! Heck, if I have both equilibrium and optimism throughout the season no matter whether the Yankees win or lose, how much moreso after the team wins the world series!
Only an email from a friend alerting me to Granderson brought me to the forum today! I must admit it’s easy to get drawn back into the discussion – but I really have needed the time away to catch up on life and just clear my head of baseball in the interim! I find this is the offseason to do it. Last year it was an interesting watch because we were still trying to field a team to get the job done. Well we got the job done. So once again I am into letting the Yankees do the work and showing up with my pom poms once the season begins.
HOWEVER – I will always give my wish list when we’re talking about what we’d like to see happen.
1. I want Melky on the team
2. I want Matsui re-signed
3. I don’t want Doc in the Bronx, since his coming here would seem to signal that either Phil or Joba wouldn’t be. I don’t buy into that.
That said, what Cashman does works for me. I just happen to believe that I will get more of what I am hoping for rather than less. Time will tell!
# Betsy – high on pie December 8th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
http://www.newsday.com/sports/…..-1.1643518
Don’t link newsday, you have to pay to see it now.
“But I root for the laundry.”
As do I.
SJ,
If you have a chance, I have a few questions.
Any idea of what the Yanks think of Chapman? Are they willing to drop $15-20 Mil (not my number, just the latest media best guess) to develop him.
What would the Cubs, or anyone else for that matter have to deal to entice the Yanks to move Melky? Is he part of their long-term plans?
I would think that DeRosa would be a great fit, can play multiple positions (IF and OF), can be a RH DH, great guy in the clubhouse, used to playing 4-5 times a week. Is he someone they are considering?
Thanks as always for your insight and well thought opinion.
SJ. You just repeated yourself and didn’t give any longterm solution. Are you gonna sign a new LF every year?
Sign Holliday and fill the DH from within
—
Signing Cameron + Matsui increases our production from last season with known quantities. Filling the DH from within pretty much just means Miranda and possibly Montero if they want to rush him.
Miranda may or may not be a major league bat. I’m not going into opening day with Miranda as my DH if I’m Cashman.
Carl, I’m sorry – I’m a subscriber, so I didn’t know. Davidoff was praising the deal – I’ll copy and past a few choice paragraphs:
*******
think this trade is really a triumph for Brian Cashman. It’s as much a representation of his reign as is the Yankees’ World Series title of 2009.
When Cashman agreed to return following the 2005 season, he did so with the understanding from George Steinbrenner that he would be allowed to run things his way. His way meant spending over slot for draft picks. It meant proceeding methodically in building both an organization and a team, and no longer operating just for the purpose of righting a wrong from the previous postseason disappointment.
Making this trade required young, affordable talent like over-slot draft picks Austin Jackson (who, to be accurate, came aboard in 2005, before Cashman gained full control over the draft) and Ian Kennedy. It required an understanding of payroll management; Curtis Granderson is valuable not only because of his skills, but because he is cost-controlled.
Granderson is hardly perfect. He strikes out a ton and struggles to hit lefties, and as another team’s scout put it, “Let’s see if they get the 2009 Granderson (good) or the 2008 Granderson (great).” Actually, his 2007 was even better, but you get the point.
As long as he provides power and adequte defense from the centerfield position, Granderson will justify the investment in both dollars and prospects. The Yankees liked Jackson and Kennedy, but Jackson still hadn’t developed the ability to produce both power and average, while Kennedy simply doesn’t have superb stuff.
Betsy – high on pie
Thanks Betsy!
Okay he doesn’t suck, but I just don’t like Cameron. And he is old, and I’m going to look it up but I swear he was a steroid user. The Yankees don’t need more bad press when it comes to players and steroids.
In more detail, then:
I root SOLELY for the laundry. I follow kids through the minors, yes, but only to see how they’ll affect the big club (w/the notable exception of Shelley Duncan. I liked that kid. But he’s IT.)
So you’d rather have Cameron for 8 million than let one of the kids play
I think they can deal with a guy who used steroids several years ago that had no connection to them.
Yes he’s old, but I only want him for a year.
“So you’d rather have Cameron for 8 million than let one of the kids play”
This season yes, I would. Because I don’t think the kids will play as well as Cameron.
You don’t need a long term solution in LF this year.
They aren’t tying up 80-100 million dollars on Matt Holliday with Jeter, Rivera and a great FA class coming up in 2010.
It’s why they haven’t had any talks with Boras re: Holliday.
Once you realize you don’t have to tie up every position with a long term contract, you will understand what they are doing.
Wait, well I’m not exactly talking about prospects here! If I missed something in Bod’s post, I apologize. I consider both Hughes and Joba part of the laundry. Those are the kids I was talking about.
OT – I have to say that most of the Jackson brothers are extremely handsome!
A few thoughts on today and on this trade.
1 – whats with the love affair with Austin Jackson and Ian Kennedy? Austin Jackson was our best prospect? Really? HELLO MCFFFFLLLLLYYYY!!!!! Jesus Montero is! Duh. And FYI Austin Jackson was NEVER the main piece of any potential Roy Halladay trade. Halladay’s asking price is either Joba, Phil, with Montero, Romine each or both included.
Ian Kennedy, listen folks, he has put up great numbers in the minors no doubt, I know he has had a set back with the surgery but is anyone willing to bet that he turns out even a number 3 starter (best case scenerio) in this league? True anything can happen, he can be a number 1 for all we know but I put the odds of him even turning out like a number 3 at 15%, and that is being nice.
We got a massive upgrade on the field, speed with a little more pop and cheaper then Damon would cost us. Oh yea he is younger as well. Right now the plan is to put him at CF, Melky at LF, and Swisher in RF. If that is not a much improved OUTFIELD then this past year, you are fooling yourself. So what are you losing? Maybe a little less batting avg then what Damon would give you, a potential decent ML centerfielder, POTENTIAL, and a SP only god knows what he will be like. I am not even considering Phil Coke in this discussion, to me pitchers like him are a dime a dozen.
Not to mention Granderson is locked up at a decent rate for the next 3 years. HELLO this is a no brainer folks, no brainer.
Now, if you bring back Damon max 1 year deal (which boras will decline) then see if he goes for a 2 year deal with he last being a club and player option, if not bid Damon farewell and lock up Matsui who will be missed in this lineup, dont kid yourself.
Also, let us not think that Jeter is locked up in that Lead off spot, dont be surprised to see him back at the number two in that case the line up would be.
Granderson
Jeter
Tex
Arod
Matsui
Posada
Cano
Swisher
Cabrera
Damn good line up, and a MUCH improved Outfield.
What is not to like?
Why not Melky in lf?
The name of the game right now is pitching. That’s where Cashman is going to focus on now.
With Hughes and Joba: I want to keep them but only because I think that makes the most sense for the club. No other reason.
Sj, i’m glad you know exactly what the Yankees are doing. Of course they don’t need a long term solution for next year, its just one year, but the years after that they do. With Jackson out of the equation who exactly would the stopgap be holding the spot for.
“Once you realize you don’t have to tie up every position with a long term contract, you will understand what they are doing.”
SJ,
I couldnt agree more.
hey since the tigers also were interested in cervelli (can’t possibly understand why – except for the eyes) – why not look into another blockbuster – this time for verlander.
Joba, Cervelli, Dunn, Aceves and a close to major league ready infielder (Pena, Russo etc) for verlander ..
is that too little?
So you’d rather have Cameron for 8 million than let one of the kids play
–
Yes, what ‘kids’ do you think are going to play at a higher level than Cameron (4 war centerfielder)???
I am not comfortable starting Melky AND Granderson for the majority of games, nor Gardner and Granderson. Miranda has 1 more year to prove his worth between AAA and MLB (continuing to hit lefties). There are no other CFers or LFers on our roster that can step in to replace Damon right now.
Unless we sign Damon, or Holliday, we need a combination of players that combined will outpace Melky and Damon.
Believe it or don’t, but the fact is Cameron + Granderson is a huge upgrade defensively and offensively. It doesn’t matter how many times Cameron strikes out when he hits 20 HRs and gets on base more than Melky while playing superior DF in center.
What LF are available next year?
I don’t think that Cameron was on steroids. He was suspended for using a PED however.
Every postion? Arod and teixera are the only ones with long term deals now. Thats hardly every position.
Sadly I keep hearing that Mike Cameron is a good fit for this team and is a consistent player. Yes, consistently low batting average and on base percentage, and a consistently high strike out total. Is he a BAD player…not really. Good guy? Maybe. But people, seriously, just compare his numbers to Melkys and it’s clear we shouldn’t go out and sign him. AND…his value drops if he’s not used in his natural position. I dont know if you guys heard, but NEWS FLASH…the Yanks are in the middle of trading for a pretty decent CF.
prospect huggers,
the tigers are not trading verlander if you gave them the whole farm literarrly. He is as close to untouchable to the tigers organization as Pujols is to the Cards.
With Verlander and Porcello they have a good to great 1-2 punch and they are both young. You do not trade guys like that. They are trying to stock up so they can build a team aroudn them two while they are still in their prime. Granted Porcello just started but you get the picture.
Verlander has probably top 3 stuff in baseball, you dont get rid of guys like that.
Jerkface, and Holliday and Granderson is an even bigger upgrade. Cameron is fine but he’s old and goes against what they say they are trying to do. You can say its just for one year but then what?
people still want Cameron? Cmon….Granderson+Swisher+Cameron would = a team with terrible RISP numbers.
“I root SOLELY for the laundry.”
Open your heart, Mr. Proctor & Gamble.
Hughes and Joba are no longer prospects.
Trisha, I have scrolled the threads, but just as an observer. The same discussions/debates wound around and around…
I’m finishing up a project that has been a few months in the making as well, but I am never fully withdrawn from baseball.
I do understand entirely the desire to linger in the moment of 2009. I have probably watched Game 6 a dozen or so times already. There’s something one can’t quite fully grasp in that final out – so I keep going back again.
Mike Cameron was suspended for a “banned stimulant” back in ’07
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3088062
Jason Stark with Seth Everett on 1050:
- Thinks Detroit/NY made out well, Arizona not so much in the trade.
- Thinks Angels are where Halladay ends up, if he gets traded at all. Red Sox think the price is too high.
- Says there are “6″ teams on his approved list, but we’ve only heard of 4.
- Heard that Halladay doesn’t want to sign an extension with anyone so close to FA, even if it is a preferred team because he wants to see his value on the market. Says that is different from his stance earlier in the off-season where he allegedly only would approve a trade to a place where he would be extended.
- Doesn’t think Halladay is a West Coast guy, heard from people close to him that he would “love” to go to Philadelphia.
That is pretty much it, they are taking Wolf and other guys now.
Betsy, Crawford and Werth are supposed to be but who knows whether they will be or not and they will have similar price tags to Holliday.
“With Hughes and Joba: I want to keep them but only because I think that makes the most sense for the club. No other reason.”
This is like an out-of-body experience. Okay, I’ll bite. What other reason would there be to keep them? For auld lang syne? I don’t think I’ve seen anyone else saying they want them “just because”. I would think they are factoring in that they think they are good for the team! Otherwise I would think they wouldn’t mind seeing them go the way of other laundry that has already left. If they WEREN’T good for the team, why would anyone want them around?
Mike Cameron?? Where is he going to play? Unless you are giving up Melky as some rumors speculate to the Cubs, but no way. To me an outfield of Melky in LF, Granderson, CF, Swish in RF is much better then anything with Cameron at there both on the field and off.
Cameron is one of those hitters like Pat Burrel (although Burrel is a better hitter). During a course of a season he will give you 20+ hrs, 75+ rbis, used to play some good defense but that is only because the season is soooo freaking long and there are a ton of bad pitchers.
If you put him in a Yankee uniform in my opinion it would get ugly quick.
Betsy, Crawford and Werth are supposed to be but who knows whether they will be or not and they will have similar price tags to Holliday.
===============
Werth is NOT better than Holliday…and if anything, anyone using Coors field should take a serious look at Citizens Bank Park
“This is like an out-of-body experience. Okay, I’ll bite. What other reason would there be to keep them?”
To hug them?
If what Stark is reporting is accurate and Halladay is leaning towards not signing an extension and becoming a free agent then that changes things quite a bit.
Sadly I keep hearing that Mike Cameron is a good fit for this team and is a consistent player. Yes, consistently low batting average and on base percentage, and a consistently high strike out total. Is he a BAD player…not really. Good guy? Maybe. But people, seriously, just compare his numbers to Melkys and it’s clear we shouldn’t go out and sign him. AND…his value drops if he’s not used in his natural position. I dont know if you guys heard, but NEWS FLASH…the Yanks are in the middle of trading for a pretty decent CF.
—
I would love to compare numbers! Melky and Cameron here we goooo
2009
Cameron: .250 .342 .452 .795
Melky: .274 .336 .416 .752
Ok, so melky is a better average hitter, but gets on base less (so more outs) and hits for way less power (lower slugging despite higher average).
Advantage: Cameron
Career!
Cameron: .250 .340 .448 .788
Melky: .269 .331 .385 .716
Even more in Cameron’s favor than 2009!
Defense?
Cameron: 10 UZR/150
Melky: 2.3 UZR/150
Advantage Cameron.
Next season has Carl Crawford among others.
FA’s, asterisk indicates option
Alfredo Amezaga FLA
Pat Burrell TB
Eric Byrnes ARI
Frank Catalanotto MIL
Carl Crawford TB
Coco Crisp KC
Michael Cuddyer MIN *
David DeJesus KC *
Adam Dunn WAS
Jermaine Dye CWS
Jody Gerut MIL
Jose Guillen KC
Willie Harris WAS
Brad Hawpe COL *
Geoff Jenkins PHI
Austin Kearns WAS
Jason Kubel MIN *
Magglio Ordonez DET *
Marcus Thames DET
Jayson Werth PHI
Anyone who thinks Melky Cabrera will be more productive than Mike Cameron next season is either looking at the wrong statistics, a complete homer, or frankly crazy.
Jerkface, as you said Cameron will cost around 8M dollars which is a lot more than Melky will make. I’d rather just let Melky play if it comes to that.
December 8th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
Mike Cameron?? Where is he going to play? Unless you are giving up Melky as some rumors speculate to the Cubs, but no way. To me an outfield of Melky in LF, Granderson, CF, Swish in RF is much better then anything with Cameron at there both on the field and off.
–
I pretty much just laid it out but Cameron is better offensively and defensively when compared to Melky. The best OF we could field is Granderson-Cameron-Swisher.
We can’t afford Holliday. You play Cameron in CF and Granderson in LF. Granderson moves back to CF if we acquire a LFer in 2011.
Unless you’re certainly getting Crawford next offseason, I prefer Holliday to every guy on that list. While theres alot of useful guys on that list for alot of teams, none of them look like long-term options aside from Crawford
Jerkface, as you said Cameron will cost around 8M dollars which is a lot more than Melky will make. I’d rather just let Melky play if it comes to that.
==
I’d rather the yankees win ballgames, but thats just me. If they are truly operating on a budget then it makes sense to go after Cameron.
Not getting Cameron means retaining Damon at a larger price, which might negatively impact our DH.
Camerons is what? 37? Melky is more than 10 years younger, less than half the price…for a player with a higher average and a slightly lower on base? And who know’s how he plays in New York, outside of CF approaching well out of his prime. Versus Melky who is going into his prime and has proven he can help this club.
I can’t see Cash going after another position player for a while if at all.
Unless they plan on moving Melky or Gardner.
Now it’s time to focus on the rotation.
I liked Cameron for this club too…five years ago.
Hey Jerkface (sorry dude that is your name)
You are giving me those numbers which state that Cameron is a better hitter, sightly with more pop, and a better defensive player. I agree with you there, slightly better with more pop, however you are forgetting one thing.
This team just won the WS with Melky Cabrera, who is used to playing in the bronx and has had numerous CLUTCH hit for us….why give that up for a player that has a little more pop? Why risk it???
Melky is not the problem relaly much of an issue if he is playing LF. He was an issuein CF because his numbers werent there but LF we all can live with him there.
trisha-I thought you were saying you would rather keep prospects (counting Joba/Hughes as prospects) in certain situations than make the team better, no? Which is a fine position. I respect that.
But I only want players because they make the team better. That’s it. No other reason.
Camerons is what? 37? Melky is more than 10 years younger, less than half the price…for a player with a higher average and a slightly lower on base? And who know’s how he plays in New York, outside of CF approaching well out of his prime. Versus Melky who is going into his prime and has proven he can help this club.
–
Higher average (maybe depends on if melky can keep it togetheR), lower OBP, AND much lower slugging. And worse defense. Don’t forget to list everything in the equation!
Melky would still be on the team in this scenario as the 4th OFer. Its not like he is leaving, but without damon AND matsui hitting the crap out of the ball, this team can’t carry Melky and another deadweight. We’ll end up like 2008 where our offense blew.
Cameron-Granderson-Swisher in the same lineup will make me cry.
blake
Yes, it does, doesn’t it?
Now who will go for one year of Halliday?
Likely very few.
Best bet for all is to see where everybody is on July 31st, and get him as a two month rental–Jays will still get better return than two picks. He may be willing to move then.
Joba, Romine, and McAllister for a year of Halliday? No thanks. Sign Pettitte and see what the back of the rotation can do.
Damon as LF/DH, Pettitte as the #3. Offseason over. I’m sure there is a stealth Cashman move somewhere as well.
“I’m finishing up a project that has been a few months in the making as well, but I am never fully withdrawn from baseball. ”
I know this will sound overly sappy but I feel that I am never fully withdrawn from baseball because from head to toe I am Yankee. They couldn’t be closer to my heart and so they are always with me. I guess what I really meant that I needed to withdraw from the daily lohud discussions in order to clear my head, especially because revelling in the moment for me was in direct opposition to immediately launching into discussions about next year’s team. It was fun to share the Granderson moment though!
“I do understand entirely the desire to linger in the moment of 2009. I have probably watched Game 6 a dozen or so times already. There’s something one can’t quite fully grasp in that final out – so I keep going back again.”
And just reading that made me tear up. Some things will never change!! One is my love for you Bod.
Can’t wait for next year’s Casey renditions!
What is wrong with an OF of
Melky-Granderson-Swisher, with Damon or Matsui at DH?
Kyle,
i agree with you man, I do not want to see that AT ALL!
This team just won the WS with Melky Cabrera, who is used to playing in the bronx and has had numerous CLUTCH hit for us….why give that up for a player that has a little more pop? Why risk it???
Melky is not the problem relaly much of an issue if he is playing LF. He was an issuein CF because his numbers werent there but LF we all can live with him there.
–
You have this backwards. He is easy to hide in CF because most CFers in baseball aren’t good at offense. In LF (power position) or RF (power position) melky is woefully under equipped. I risk it because thats what baseball teams do, GET BETTER in the offseason (royals not withstanding).
Melky will still be here, providing ‘clutch hits’ or whatever. The 4th OFer on the yankees gets a lot of play time under girardi.
I’d also like to point out that Melky was far from clutch in his previous seasons with the yankees. He has his good qualities, but he is still a work in progress. He has yet to ‘put it together’
“I’d rather the yankees win ballgames, but thats just me. If they are truly operating on a budget then it makes sense to go after Cameron.”
——————————–
obviously the Yanks cant win ballgames with Melky Cabrera. The Yanks will never succeed with him! Great point!
If the yanks are truly operating on a budget then it makes sense to stay with Melky (at 6 Mil LESS). Do you guys have any idea what you’re talking about?
I love that all the people come to Cash in his room. He goes nowhere.
Cash is definitely King.
Hate to break it to you guys but trading for Granderson means the Yankees probably will not be signing a long term LF this season or next. That means no Holliday or even Crawford next year.
The Yankees have an incredible amount of money tied up for the foreseeable future and if they want any flexibility whatsoever they sure are not going to get tied into to another long term contract with a LF. The next 3 years we will probably see Grandy in CF, Swisher in RF, and either a 1-2 year free agent (Damon or Cameron for example) or a prospect.
The Yankees also have plenty of time to replace AJAX in the system with Grandy and Swish locked up for the next 3 years.
Pittsburg, yea I’ve been a strong go get Halladay guy, but if he’s decided hes going to become a free agent then no way I’m trading for him. Let them ship him off to the Dodgers or somebody and then bid for him next year and lose no prospects.
Mike Cameron is 36 years old and coming off a season in which he hit .250/.342/.452.
Melky Cabrera is 25 years old and coming off a season in which he hit .274/.336/.416.
Mike Cameron had a .738 OPS with runners in scoring position this past year.
Melky Cabrera had a .793 OPS with runners in scoring position this past year.
Forgive me for not seeing the need to entice Mike Cameron. If we want to bring in a 36 year old outfielder, you bring in the guy who just gave you four years of markedly better production than Cameron would have offered and who this past October was instrumental to helping you win a championship. Mike Cameron will not be a Yankee next year.
I would have had no problem with bringing back Damon on a 2 year, 22 million dollar pact and Matsui on a 1 year, 10 million dollar pact with a 10 million dollar option for that same amount. I personally don’t believe that outside of Pettitte any moves need to be made for the rotation. If one of Joba or Hughes fails then you have a guy who would be a competent fourth starter on a championship team right now (Aceves) stretched out and ready to go as a starter.
Wait, I apologize. Now I understand what you were saying.
Okay you are right in the way you read what I was saying. I don’t necessarily care to make a move to make the team better if it means giving up certain players. Do I think the Yankees could be a better team with Doc on it, especially in the short run? Absolutely and unequivocally. Would I give up either of the two mentioned players in order to make it happen? No.
I too can understand and respect the position of those who would want to do it. I just don’t see it as a necessity to win and the scale for me tips on the side of keeping the kids (Joba and Hughes.)
Cameron, Granderson, and Swisher will probably all strikeout 130 times. Talk about a black hole at the bottom of the lineup.
We’re going to be so frustrated watching all of our rallies being killed by strikeouts, and not advancing runners, or getting guys in from 3rd, etc…..
Cameron-Granderson-Swisher in the same lineup will make me cry.
What is wrong with an OF of
Melky-Granderson-Swisher, with Damon or Matsui at DH?
–
That lineup will make opposing pitchers cry top. Thats back to back to back 20 HR hitters, 2 of which are fast as hell, and Granderson/Swish see a ton of pitches.
Melky-Granderson-Swisher with Damon/Matsui at DH is bad because you are suddenly missing a bunch of on base, RBIs, HRs from the difference between Melky and Damon/Matsui.
Melky is a 4th OFer or a CFer on a stacked team. He isn’t a LFer on a yankee team without both Damon and Matsui
Kyle, I can’t see that happening.
And just reading that made me tear up. Some things will never change!! One is my love for you Bod.
Can’t wait for next year’s Casey renditions!
====
Right back at you darlin’.
And “Dusty At the Bat” occupies a very special place on the desktop.
Aside from being hilarious, that was extremely well written.
I await many more versions (too bad we couldn’t have the heroic Dusty sacrificing his place in history as the greatest 2B of all time to take over short stop….:D)
Yanks upgraed their Outfield and lineup today…..I really don’t see Cameron being that much of an upgrade to the ever improving Melky C…..Get Pettite inked, re-sign Matsui to hit 5th, and secure a starter like Sheets and then Cashman can tinker with the bench…..I rather have the stronger armed Melky in right field…Then again then vision of Swisher trying to track down balls hit into death valley at The Stadium could be an issue….
Cameron, Granderson, and Swisher will probably all strikeout 130 times. Talk about a black hole at the bottom of the lineup.
We’re going to be so frustrated watching all of our rallies being killed by strikeouts, and not advancing runners, or getting guys in from 3rd, etc…..
–
Its such a black hole that 2 of the 3 will probably get on base at a .360+ clip and one will on base at .340 meaning they make less outs, also they will hit a billion HRs.
Yes I am sure they will kill all the rallies with their walks and HRs.
Spare me. I’d rather have a guy with a low average and a huge on base than a slap hitter who can’t get on base.
Why do people use “youth and better defensively” as if they are interchangeable?
Cameron is 37, but he is still a gold glove outfielder and would improve our defense dramatically. Melky isin’t close to as good as him defensively. He is also a better offensive player. More power, higher OBP.
Basically, the only advantage to Melky is that he is younger. Heck, Cameron is probably faster than him too and will steal more bases despite being 10 yrs older.
I still CAN”T believe people on here bringing up Mike Camerons name.
HE’S NOT COMING
Pat M. I think they should sign Holliday but if they really are on a strict budget and decide they can’t afford him then what you proposed would be my 2nd choice. I like Matsui over Damon now because they need a #5 hitter. I like Sheets a lot and think if he’s 100% he’s the best Free Agent pitcher available, and am fine letting Melky fill the other outfield spot although I’d put him in RF and Swisher in LF.
Jeter
Granderson
Teixeria
Rodriguez
Matsui
Posada
Cano
Swisher
Cameron
Wow, that lineup might hit 270 HRs and have a combined OBP of like .360.
I’d rather sign Matsui for 12 M (but it would definitely be less), then Cameron for 8. There’s no comparison in the difference of the team with Matsui instead of Cameron. Not much difference in the outfield, and we have protection for ARod. You cant disagree with that. Who would rather get Cameron over Matsui? Anybody?
If the Yankees are trying to control payroll then why on earth would the sign Cameron when they just won a WS with Melky. Melky still has upside. Cameron is 37 and players can fall off very quickly and unexpectedly at that age.
I’d rather sign Matsui for 12 M (but it would definitely be less), then Cameron for 8. There’s no comparison in the difference of the team with Matsui instead of Cameron. Not much difference in the outfield, and we have protection for ARod. You cant disagree with that. Who would rather get Cameron over Matsui? Anybody?
–
It isn’t Cameron over Matsui. No one ever said that. In fact, my plan is to get Matsui AND Cameron.
Matsui for 10 million, Cameron for 8 or less. Both on 1 year deals.
CF+LF = covered for the same price as Damon last year.
DH = cheaper.
They also fill different needs. Granderson is an upgrade over Melky. Cameron is also an upgrade over Melky. By themselves, neither is a total upgrade over Damon, but combined they are far superior to Damon+Melky.
If the Yankees are trying to control payroll then why on earth would the sign Cameron when they just won a WS with Melky. Melky still has upside. Cameron is 37 and players can fall off very quickly and unexpectedly at that age.
–
Payroll is controlled because they still have to sign a LFer and a DH. Melky has upside but has shown very little sign of reaching it. Right now he is a 4th OFer or a CFer on a weaker club by his stats. We love him because he came up to the Yankees but he was really bad outside of 2006 and 2009, and he has never come close (Outside of 1 month in 2008) where he was near his 2006 production.
THANK YOU BLAKE!!.. Some on here think Cameron is Mickey Mantle, and that we need a free agent at every postion. I just don’t get it . Melky is fine, Like you said we won a championship with him.
Blake I thought of Melky in RF with his very good arm…Swisher in left may not be too bad due to Curtis roaming around in center
Have there been any reports this year that the Yankees have interest in Cameron, where did this Cameron stuff come from?
Again, Cameron+ Matsui= aprox 18M which would be more than Holliday would cost for 2010. They could let Miranda or possibly Montero DH later in the year. Posada already catches more than he should. It would be good if he got more DH time next year.
Sure Melky would work, but adding Cameron provides flexibility.
Have there been any reports this year that the Yankees have interest in Cameron, where did this Cameron stuff come from
—
Cashman has tried to acquire Cameron for the last 3 years.
Melky is fine, if we get Matsui back as our DH.
Essentially, that would mean that Grandy replaced Damon and our defensive OF got better as well.
If Damon comes back, then Melky is no longer needed, probably would not make a great 4th OF, coming off the bench and could be traded, since he actually has trade value.
Gardner has no trade value, because he is a minor leaguer with speed, could be our 4th OF and speed guy off the bench.
Pat, yea I think Melky’s arm makes him a better fit in RF and hopefully he can handle some the the crazy spin you get in RF better than Swish. I think Swish could hold down LF good enough with Granderson in CF.
Jerkface, I said this year. It made more since last year and the year before and they passed then, why would they do it now when it makes no sense?
I’m not sure of his rehab timeframe, but he can be ready by early may, i wouldn’t mind seeing X Nady back here. Possibly start off as a part time righthanded DH until his arm is recovered and them put him back into the OF part time
Can we send Cameron to Toronto in the package for Halladay?
Bod – did I ever tell you that I was a J major in college? I actually love to write. I have a bunch of poetry socked away, much of it significant-other inspired, for the bad as well as the good. (How is this for an allusion to strong love kicked weary – a stanchion battered by the tides.)
Anyhoo, I too look forward to little Dusty providing inspiration for many additional stanzas to our Casey anthology! I trust he will do it.
XO
Jerkface, I said this year. It made more since last year and the year before and they passed then, why would they do it now when it makes no sense?
–
For the many reasons people have laid out, it makes perfect sense. They passed before because the Brewers kept asking for too much. Melky + IPK.
What does our pen look like next year? We lost Bruney/Coke, and Hughes is moving back to the rotation presumably.
trisha-You should have joined National Novel Writing month in November.
I don’t think Philly can afford Halladay.
Dan Shulman doing the Indiana/Pitt game from MSG.
Just sign Matsui an call it a day. The yankees have enough outfielders we don’t need old steroid man Cameron on the team.
Yanks are not clogging the DH with a guy who can’t play the field. The DH will either go to Damon, or be rotated to give guys a day off.
The way I see it Cash has 2 options to fill out the position players:
1) Sign Holliday, which would make the outfield LF- Holliday, CF- Granderson, RF- Swisher/melky. You could platoon Swisher and Melky, play Melky in RF and DH Swisher, or trade one of them and fill the DH either by signing Matsui (which would really be pushing it) or fill it from within with Miranda, Montero, etc, and mix in Posada.
2) Sign Matsui or Damon ( I prefer Matsui since the Granderson trade), play Granderson, Swisher, and Melky in the outfield and DH either Damon or Matsui.
Both are good options. I like #1 better because I think it makes a better team and sets the outfield for a few years, but the rub is in the price tag.
I think if we sign or trade for a left fielder, Melky will get traded.
There was 2 specific areas that needed attention this winter…..The outfield defense was one for obvious reasons…..Second will be the rotation…I expect Pettite to slip at least 10-15 % from last year….Let’s just say, I don’t think he’ll match the innings, wins, era that he posted in 09….Now if Joba comes back and does his offseason work, he shouls easily pick up that drop off by Andy, as Joba improves over his 09 numbers…Then we have Young Master Hughes, how will certainly improve over Joba’s 09 numbers……The real issue is the innings per outings and it’s effect on the pen….For this reason, Cashman has to find another starter who can go 7 innings….Someone besides CC
Scott, if they sign Pettite and then another starter then I’d say Joba will be back in the pen (if he doesn’t get traded), at least thats what I would do. Its time for Phil to be a starter for good.
“If Damon comes back, then Melky is no longer needed, probably would not make a great 4th OF, coming off the bench and could be traded, since he actually has trade value.”
Damon could be the DH. He is a bad outfielder.
I think Cashman is satisfied with Granderson, Melky and Swisher in the outfield.
Pat M, thats what I’ve been saying. The rotation as it is now is a burned out bullpen waiting to happen. Joba and Hughes likely won’t go deep often, Andy (assuming he comes back) will be a year older and it can’t be assumed that he will routinely go 7+, and AJ gets knocked out of a lot of games early when “bad AJ” shows up. That leaves CC as the only rest game for the pen. They need another innings eater..
Tim, as long as your rotations can hit 5th and covers Alex…..Right now, that hitter isn’t on the roster anymore..
“8:35pm: Mike DiGiovanna of the LA Times reports that Angels GM Tony Reagins would consider moving Erick Aybar for a substantial return”
haha, the substantial return meant Halladay. How you think Aybar would like moving to Toronto. Dude looked like he was going to climb Everest in the playoffs, I’m thinking he wouldn’t like Canada too much.
Wait, I didn’t know about it. I think I should do a little more research into those writing things. Boy that would be the way to stay humble. Read the writings of people who really know how to do it.
AJ averaged more than 6 IP per start. As did CC and Pettitte. We don’t need ‘an innings eater’(slang for bad pitcher that happens to throw a lot of bad innings). Also where would we get this mythical innings eater?
CC-AJ-Pettitte-Hughes-Joba will be fine. Sign Sheets or keep Wang for insurance.
Jerkface, By inning eater I didn’t mean Sidney Ponson, I meant a guy like Sheets. I meant another quality arm.
I really think after this Granderson trade has gone through, Cash will truly focus on pitching and less on the LF market, unless something drastic develops, considering it is doubtful they are in on Bay or Holliday.
The way the starting pitching market is looking, it seems a lot of 1-3 year deal type pitchers are seeking a bit more money than expected. Hence reports of the Mets getting in on Lackey due to the increased asking price of FA SP’s.
Bet on the Yanks signing Pettitte + FA project (Duchscherer/Sheets/Harden).
Sheets isin’t going to sign here to be in a competition or be a “back up” plan that we stash away somewhere. If we sign him, he’s in the rotation and that pushes one of Joba/Hughes out of the rotation. I have no problem with that, but if you sign one of the high risk/reward guys like Sheets, Harden, Bedard etc., you have to assume they will be healthy and in the rotation, not sign them incase someone else gets injured.
What’s with the sudden fascination with signing a long-term solution for LF? I seem to remember a Dynasty in the late 90s/early 00s that had some success taking LF year-by-year…
If we sign Sheets, that means Joba or Hughes would be in AAA or in the pen. Assuming Sheets is ready to start opening day, of course.
Because year by year you never know what you’re getting. Some years you may get stuck with nothing.
Tim, I think if you sign a guy like Sheets/harden then they go into the rotation and Joba goes to the pen if he hasn’t been traded.
Tim,
Exactly. Sheets or Harden are not signing anywhere to be stashed away in AAA or something. Those guys will find dozens of starting jobs this winter.
Cashman has stressed pitching pitching pitching, so you have to figure he is eying another starter and isin’t content with having both Hughes AND Joba in the rotation. We’ll find out soon enough.
It is amazing to me that in 2009 with so much information and statistics at our fingertips with just a click of a mouse that people here can not grasp how much significantly better Mike Cameron is then Melky Cabrera.
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.....id=4355125
I remember this
People thought this was the beginning of the end for Mo haha
2009 WAR FOR CF
1. Guitierrez: 5.9
2. Kemp: 5.0
3. Nyjer Morgan: 4.9
4. Mike Cameron: 4.3
Its amazing to me that people who preach about payroll constantly will spend 8-10 million on a 37 year old outfielder who strikes out a ton and could fall off dramatically at any time. Melky is cheap, good defensively and has room to improve. Cameron is old, expensive, and only will decline from here on.
And this SO thing kills rallies is such nonsense. You kill rallies by making outs You extend rallies by not making outs. Mike Cameron gets on base more than Melky Cabrera, thus he makes less outs. This is not rocket science
Chad,
From Cashman’s comments, did you get any sense as to whether the “someone” they have in mind on Thursday is to be the Rule 5 draftee (who they will have to keep on the 25-man roster all season or risk losing to waivers or by return to the originating team) or “someone” the Yankees covet and could acquire in a trade for the Rule 5 draftee once they get him? The latter scenario is one that most who have commented on this situation seem to have overlooked, but it is one that solves the problem of having to find a player who can be useful on a championship team for the full season while still getting a meaningful return for Bruney, a pitcher they may have been planning to non-tender in a few days anyway. If the Rule 5 draftee is then traded, either on Thursday or at anytime before the end of the season, the 25 man roster restrictions go away from the Yankees with the Rule 5 draftee.
I can best illustrate my point by using some real names of players and teams, but these are chosen not as predictions, but merely as examples as to how my suggestion might work. Suppose, for example, that the player the Yankees really want to acquire is outfielder Rene Tosoni of the Twins. Tosoni is not eligible to be taken in the Rule 5 draft because, on the 5th of June (2005) immediately preceding his 5/25/2006 signing he had not yet attained the age of 19. Thus, the Twins did not have to protect him this year, and I would think that most teams would project him at AAA in 2010. Suppose, merely for purposes of our example, that the Yankees have approached the Twins about trading directly for Tosoni, but nothing the Yankees wanted to give up, including Brian Bruney, interested the Twins. Suppose however that the Twins did let it be known that they were really interested in someone who was eligible for the Rule 5 but didn’t think they could get him (either because their pick comes too late or because their roster is at 40 and they have no pick). The Yankees could direct the Nationals to pick the player the Twins wanted as the PTBNL in the Bruney trade and then send the player the Twins wanted for 2010 to them for Tosoni. Remember, the Yankees traded for Kanekoa Texeira, in a different context, of course,in 2008 specifically because he had another year left before he would be eligible for the Rule 5. Tosoni could be assigned to the minors by the Yankees for another year, and the 25 man roster restriction associated with the Rule 5 pick would go with the draftee to the Twins
Steve, thanks for posting.
I’m not even thinking Halladay anymore…..I just don’t think it’s realist for a variety of reasons (plus, I hate getting my hopes up only to have them dashed – if it works out, great. I’m not counting on it)
What leads you to say Cameron will fall off a cliff. He has shown now signs of decline. He has pretty much been the same exact player both offensively and defensively for the past 8 years.
You know who you CAN stash in AAA until you know what you’ve got in him? Chien-ming Wang.
And for a lot less than for Sheets/Harden.
On most teams, you put the best arm in RF because of the throws being longer, and usually more chances for outfield assists from right. But, in Yankee Stadium, with more room in left, you want a better outfielder in left as far as tracking fly balls.
Swisher wasn’t too bad in right last year, in part because there is a lot less ground to cover in YS. Also, like LF in Fenway, although to a much lesser degree, the throws are shorter because of the depth of the field. So, as the team stands now- Melky LF, Swisher RF.
Nick,
You are right but unfortunately, it doesn’t look like he is on Cashman’s radar now.
Nats in on Garland, Pineiro, Padilla,Smoltz but not Lackey. Yanks on Gozalez to replace Coke.
http://twitter.com/JimBowdenIV/
Kelvim Escobar
37 year olds can decline quickly and without warning. I didn’t say he would, I said it was a possibility. One that I’m not willing to chance 8 million dollars on when I have a young cheap option that I just won the WS with.
Blake, especially if he’s got all these teams on his list…….I hope we can get him as a FA, but I’m not counting on it whatwith so many teams bidding for his services. I just hope he stays with the Jays this year.
Granderson single season 23 triples is very very
impressive.
But lets give it up to:
Chief Wilson 1912 36 Triples
Heinie( Yes Heinie…)Reitz 1894 31 Triples
A SO is a rally killer. Ground balls and fly outs do get runners in from third. Even an error can score a run.
Cameron strikes out too much, is old and expensive. Play Melky.
Betsy, I think thats a real possibility. As it looks right now he will either be moved as a one year rental or start the year in Toronto. That could change of course but if Toronto just kept him then that would be almost as good as trading for him because that would allow the Yankees to get him next year and not give up any players.
groundballs also create double plays, and they are much more serious rally killers than K’s.
It is interesting that Cashman was talking as if he wanted Hughes AND Joba in the rotation next year, yet he is putting so much emphasis on securing pitching this off-season and basically all of his public quotes (even today) mentions how high of a priority pitching is.
Which one is it?
Sounds like the Angels are making a real push for Doc…….
Maybe.
You have a zero percent chance of doing something productive if you strikeout.
“Granderson single season 23 triples is very very
impressive.
But lets give it up to:
Chief Wilson 1912 36 Triples
Heinie( Yes Heinie…)Reitz 1894 31 Triples”
Ty Cobb 1911- 47 doubles, 24 triples, and a .621 SLG in a season where he only hit 8 HRs!
Mark in Tampa
December 8th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
“Granderson single season 23 triples is very very
impressive.
But lets give it up to:
Chief Wilson 1912 36 Triples
Heinie( Yes Heinie…)Reitz 1894 31 Triples”
Ty Cobb 1911- 47 doubles, 24 triples, and a .621 SLG in a season where he only hit 8 HRs!
*****
Don’t you have to take the era into account there? Weren’t old baseball stadiums more expansive, thus- easier to hit a triple instead of a HR??
Anyway, going to bed. Good night Yankee people.
Blake, I do think he’ll be an Angel based on what Stark said and the recent post about Aybar………I’ve given up on trying to figure out what Doc wants – I’ve no idea. I would not be surprised if he wants to test FA no matter what – and I don’t blame him. Of course that means the Angels or whomever would be renting him……and that means that the trade probably wouldn’t take place.
Rose
December 8th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
A SO is a rally killer. Ground balls and fly outs do get runners in from third. Even an error can score a run.
Cameron strikes out too much, is old and expensive. Play Melky.
————————
Even if this is so which I clearly do not buy:
None of this matters. These statistics taken in a vacuum. If at the end of the season Mike Cameron produces more offensively than Melky he is more valuable on the offensive side. If he produces more it does not matter if he did it with a guy on third or whatever. All that matters in baseball is production and Cameron PRODUCES ALOT more than Melky.
Mark in Tampa, Who can make the throw from right field to 3rd base , Melky or Swisher ??? That’s wht the best arm goes to right whenever possible…..Melky has the arm ….I’m not on the Cameron float at all…..
I strike out is still better than hitting into a double play or triple play. And actually, a dropped third strike, wild pitch, a pass ball, there are ways for k’s to work out occasionally.
Betsy, If Doc decides to not sign an extension then teams are going to drastically reduce their offers. Therefore the Jays may just decide to keep him and try and trade him at the deadline or just take the picks and try and gain goodwill with their fanbase by acting like they tried to keep him. It’ll be interesting to see how it unfolds.
blake
December 8th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
You have a zero percent chance of doing something productive if you strikeout.
————————–
Add that to the list of things that do not matter at the end of the season.
Think about what you are saying:
Cameron strikes out more so he has less chance of being productive. Melky strikes out less so he has a greater chance of being productive….
Yet the statistics clearly show that Cameron produces ALOT more than Melky
By the way, isn’t it interesting that the Tigers/AZ both asked for Phil Hughes and not Joba……….and Toronto preferes Phil as well.
Cameron’s overall numbers may have been better than Melky’s, but Cameron had a very hot start. After May, they were very similar players(numbers-wise), and Cameron tailed off significantly after the ASB. Post-ASB- .311 OBP, .743 OPS, .241 BA with 75 Ks and 28 RBIs.
Cameron may make a few more plays in the field than Melky, but they would be playing left, so a little different for both. Cameron would hit more HRs, Melky more contact and more hits. Don’t forget that either one would bat 9th mostly, so we aren’t talking about key contributors.
They are fairly close, albeit with different weaknesses and strengths. Being that they are fairly close, I would opt for the guy who is already part of the team. Change a championship team in ways that make it significantly better, like today’s trade, but I don’t like to break up a winning combination for an incremental improvement.
Mike Cameron – 25 HRs
Melky – 13 HRs
No other stats are relevant. Cameron also plays GG defense.
Phil, a passed ball after a 3rd strike happens about once a month in MLB and isn’t significant enough to even talk about.
Betsy -
Shows what the rest of the league thinks of Joba. GMs can see past “Jobamania” and the commercials and endorsement deals. Coming into camp out of shape had to have been a major red flag. And this was coming off an offseason where he got arrested for DUI and had a season cut short with a shoulder injury.
Blake, I’m done with the whole thing, lol. More drama at the ASB is not what I need – and the Yankees definitely wouldn’t go after him then. First it was Santana, now Halladay -I promise myself that the next time someone like this is up to be traded (because the team can’t afford him, etc…….), I’m not going to get caught up in the whirlwind.
The problem is they are not fairly close.
Cameron is a 4 WAR player
Melky is a 1.5 WAR player
That is a huge difference
oh and Cameron had more hits than Melky last season
If Hughes and Joba come to camp ready to go I have no doubts that both of them will be in the rotation.
They simply didn’t go through all that hoopla with Joba to abandon the plan for him as a SP after one uneven year. Its not like his 2008 stuff magically came back when he moved to the bullpen. In the playoffs his stuff was good but not nearly as good as it was as a STARTER in 2008.
Hughes simply isn’t going to remain in the pen. Cashman believes he can be a #1/#2 starter, shifting him to the pen last year helped him harness his stuff, command, and confidence against big league hitting. At some point they have to find out what they have here, and I don’t see any risk of him imploding like he did in 2008 if for some reason that’s what people are desperately fearing. He was more than competent (outside of one inning) in the rotation this year and I suspect he’ll pitch awfully well over next season.
If somebody gets hurt, Cashman has plenty of stopgap options for the rotation, Aceves and Gaudin included. Aceves is a number 4 starter on a championship level team, so keeping him stretched out will be tremendously important- and might mean that we have to add some pieces to the bullpen. Gaudin is a fine option as a number 5 for any team.
I really don’t see any chance of us bringing in a reclamation project (Sheets, Harden, or Duscherer) that would outpitch either Phil or Joba this year. Sheets hasn’t pitched a full season worth of MLB ball in five years, Harden has chronic shoulder issues and showed poor command in the NL central last year, and Duscherer was never all that good to begin with.
I’m not getting into strikeout argument again because it could go on all night and some people just don’t get it.
blake,
it doesn’t make a lick of difference. K’s are neutral outs and nothing more.
The pen is looking awfully thin with Coke/Bruney gone and Hughes moving back to the rotation. Also is Aceves going to be in the pen, or in AAA in reserve incase someone gets hurt?
MO
Marte
Robertson
??? Who else? Dunn?
“Aceves is a number 4 starter on a championship level team”
You know this how?
“oh and Cameron had more hits than Melky last season”
3 more hits. In 59 more ABs.
WAR is one stat. Other than that, Cameron scored 8 more runs, 2 more RBIs, and his OBP was .006 higher. That is with 59 more ABs, and Cameron had about the hottest month and a half of his career to start the season. IDK that you can count on that again. He was more productive, but not by a landslide in every category. He would also be switching leagues, so that could affect his early season numbers.
“But their first major thunderbolt of this offseason wasn’t about the money — for a change.”
This sick POS Jayson Stark.
When the Red Sox committed over 200 million in the 2006 offseason and benefited with a WS in 2007, nobody cared that all they did was spend the money.
Betsy, It could still happen, never put anything past Cashman but I’m just not going to worry about it until more info comes out.
As for Joba, the rest of baseball sees Joba for what he is because they aren’t blinded by emotion. He is a question mark. He may become a good starting pitcher but he also may end up in the pen which devalues him.
“So out the door went 22-year-old outfield stud Austin Jackson,”
Now that Austin is not a Yankees anymore, now we hear the praise for him. Hmmmm….
blake
December 8th, 2009 at 11:25 pm
I’m not getting into strikeout argument again because it could go on all night and some people just don’t get it.
—————————-
I’m not getting into strikeout argument again because it could go on all night and
some peopleI just don’t get it.Fixed
Phil, thats fine if you want to think that. You’re wrong but its your opinion and you’re entitled to it, I’m not going to argue with you about it.
Guys, Joba wasn’t hurt per say…He was shut down for a few weeks due to shoulder inflamation….In fact most pitchers ussually pitch through it…..All the stat b.s. is not going to convince me that when in the final anaylsis that Cameron is the better option over Melky….Take the money difference and use it to resign Matsui……Man, the dude is 57 years old…..
Pat M,
Yeah, I know what you are saying about the arm in right, that’s why I was saying that is the conventional wisdom. But do you really want Swisher patrolling the expansive YS left field? He ended up OK in right last year, some guys ran on him, but it wasn’t too bad. Then again, LF in the new stadium doesn’t seem quite as huge as it was in OYS, regardless of what the numbers on the fence say.
Cameron- .250 24homers 70rbi
Melky- .274 13homers 68rbi
Not a big upgrade over Melky and I don’t think Cashman will pay Cameron, who made 10 million in ’09
blake
December 8th, 2009 at 11:25 pm
I’m not getting into strikeout argument again because it could go on all night and some people just don’t get it.
—————————
I’m not getting into strikeout argument again because it could go on all night and
some peopleI just don’t get it.Really Fixed this time
Granderson!
Bye Johnny.
Keep Melky, Swish, Gardner. Swish can DH and is still a utility infielder, isn’t he?
Is the above scenario possible? Its lower-cost that’s for sure.
While I do not listen to anything ESPNers say, this from Stark
So out the door went 22-year-old outfield stud Austin Jackson, widely viewed as either the Yankees’ first or second-best prospect. And out that door, right along with him, went their most dependable left-handed reliever last year, Phil Coke. And the third guy on that exit ramp was pitcher Ian Kennedy, a guy the Yankees once balked at trading for Johan Santana.
All those on here saying that we gave up nothing.
Justin Masterson and Nick Hagadone are nothing.
IPK, Ajax, and Coke is not.
blake,
I’m not wrong.
I don’t know Aceves is a number four starter on a championship team, but I’d be pretty damn sure he could be.
He is extremely rare in that he can throw 4 pitches (fastball, cutter, change, curve) for strikes at will. And on most days all four of those pitches are at least major league average.
Look at his stats from this past year pitching mostly in longer spurts out of the pen, and then consider his minor league track record. The overall impressiveness of his season was masked by his September and October slide into obscurity:
3.54 ERA, 69/16 K to BB ratio in 84 innings, 1.01 WHIP
I know you don’t get it.
blake’s argument:
Cameron strikes out a lot so he is not productive.
I am right.
End of argument.
This past season, when all were Yankees, Stark and others had quite different opinions of the three. IPK was a question mark as to whether he would ever be a big league contributor, Coke was an ineffective set up man, and few of the national guys had any idea who Ajax was.
Phil, thats fine. If you want to think strikeouts are just another out then you can.
Erica – always OPPC
December 8th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
Mark in Tampa
December 8th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
“Granderson single season 23 triples is very very
impressive.
But lets give it up to:
Chief Wilson 1912 36 Triples
Heinie( Yes Heinie…)Reitz 1894 31 Triples”
Ty Cobb 1911- 47 doubles, 24 triples, and a .621 SLG in a season where he only hit 8 HRs!
*****
Don’t you have to take the era into account there? Weren’t old baseball stadiums more expansive, thus- easier to hit a triple instead of a HR??
Anyway, going to bed. Good night Yankee people.
——————–
Yes of course…the walls were so far back it was easier.
Granderson does it today. wow.
I was really just making an homage to those great names:
Chief and Heinie.
Sounds like a sitcom.
It is disgusting that all Boston traded for an All-Star catcher (a switch hitter who hits 30 HRs and well over .300) was a righty-specialist reliever in Masteron and some kid named Hagadong.
Meanwhile, we had to give up a top CF prospect in Jackson, a solid #3 starter in Kennedy, and a good lefty reliever in Coke. Heck, Coke is better than anything Boston gave up for Martinez.
Disappointing that Cashman continues to allow GMs to charge him with “yankee tax”. Just stop trading with anyone and sign FAs. Of course, we get screwed there too. Our “core 4″ held out for the most money and even used Torre’s Dodgers and the Mets as leverage, whereas Boston’s players sign hometown discounts way below their market value. Watch how much Jeter takes us to the cleaners next off-season. Whereas Beckett will probably sign for less than AJ Burnett.
Just sickening.
Or a wrestling tag team.
Thats not what I said at all. You have no argument yourself so you make up something that I said and use if for your own argument. I said you have a zero percent chance of doing something productive if you strikeout which is a true statement. I said nothing about Cameron in relation to strikeouts.
This Melky (World Champion) vs. Cameron (congrats on becoming a grandad!) is great, but isn’t it Damon that Cameron would really be replacing?
I am not sure when the Tigers moved their fences in, but it would not surprise me at all if it was before the ’08 season, when CG went from 23 to 13 triples. Shorter fences are definitely a major contributing factor to less triples. The last couple years, I have also noticed way more singles on balls hit off the wall instead of the automatic double.
The DH and corner outfield positions can be filled with productive but inexpensive players in every offseason. The Yankees don’t need to do anything long term in left field, and I bet that they intend on using those positions as roster flexibility in the future.
My argument is Cameron’s statistics. Year in and year out he produces offensively more than Melky. It does not matter if it happens with a guy on 3rd and less than 2 outs or with a 2 run HR. All that matters is production.
Obviously you have zero percent chance of doing something productive if you SO, but who is arguing that. It is a ridiculous argument and it does not matter again if Cameron produces more
Stark sounds like a complete dip. Coke was reliable? In what universe?
LOL The Yankees never balked at trading Ian Kennedy for Santana – they balked at trading him along with Wang; they balked at including him along with Phil and Melky.
“This Melky (World Champion) vs. Cameron (congrats on becoming a grandad!) is great, but isn’t it Damon that Cameron would really be replacing?”
In position, yes, but based on the roster as of right now, it seems to be Melky and Swish for left and right. I think maybe Damon would be primarily DH if he is brought back, playing maybe 50-75 games in left.
If you strikeout then you can’t do anything to help the team.
If you hit the ball then a lot of good things can happen: you can get a hit, the other team can make an error, you can move runners, hit a sac fly, sac bunt, etc etc.
Now that doesn’t mean that if you strikeout a lot then you can’t be a good player, it does mean that you have less chances to make good things happen because you put the ball in play less.
Thats my last comment on the subject.
Cameron is a bum and would strike out 200 times in the AL
Aceves is not that good – I’m quite down on him.
Alex Rodriguez for his career when faced with the opportunity has made a productive out 29% of the time.
Mike Cameron has made a productive out 26% of the time.
Get that rally killer AROD off the team.
According to the Detroit Fret Press,Granderson has great character,a good guy,disciplined.
He told the Tigers he wouldn’t sign with them,until he finished his college education.Both his parents are educators.Seems like they lead by example!
Mark Teixeira: 29%
jpir one22 (12/8/2009 at 11:41 PM) PETER GAMMONS
SYNONYMOUS WITH CRIMINAL
His fraudulent reporting should land him in jail.
I wonder how many ***** of the Red Sox prospects did PG lick. The guy is a disgrace, but he fit right in at ESPN, and would fit right in at NESN.
Let’s hope he does not go to MLBNetwork and bring his corrupt practices there too.
+++
Look who it is, Lohudders.
Looks like Melancon is going to be force-fed next year.
Right now, he is probably behind Marte and Robertson and that’s it. That probably means the 7th inning guy.
Jorge Posada: 26%
Sure, if you make contact you have a chance at doing something good. So Melky has far more chances (because he doesn’t strike out) but because he isn’t that great of a baseballer he usually does nothing.
Filling your team with contact hitters and hoping they reach via error is a method for failure.
For every ‘contact’ hitter that gets a sac fly or RBI ground out, there is a guy grounding into a double play, popping up, hitting it to weak to score anyone, hitting it right at someone and not hard enough to get through, etc.
Too many variables. You go with production and Cameron provides it.
Also you can’t use a straight up position vs position comparison for Cameron vs Damon because we already have Granderson replacing most of Damon’s production at a different positon.
cameron+granderson just has to beat Melky+whoever
Cameron is another low OBP guy
Pass.
We need OBP, not strikeouts and .250 averages….
CR9, That’s Stark ragging on the Yanks once again…..Let’s see how it all shakes out in 3 years….By then Jackson will have had a year maybe 2 under his belt..Ian will have won maybe 22 games, and Coke will have moments of brillance and will be on the highlight reel for serving up some bombs….Whenwhile Curtis Granderson will make another All-Star game or 2, and the Yanks very well could be crowned another World Series Championship…..Tigers wanted Hughes to start any trade talks for Curtis Granderson, however Yanks gave away some players that might have a nice MLB career…That being said, The Yankees acquired an impact centerfielder…..Wait until you see him play, I’m certain your stance will be long forgotten…
Nick Swisher: 30%
How did the Yankees manage to have the best offense in baseball with all these rally killers?
Melky to the Cubs or another interested team- what can we get in return? I think Melky’s trade value is at its highest right now. There’s no better time.
Who plays LF? Hopefully not Damon. I want Damon back in pinstripes but not as the everyday Left Fielder.
That said, from early on I thought a trade with KC would be optimal. DeJesus and Soria to the Yankees. We can get a young Left Fielder and a BP arm that can easily be our 8th inning man. Only thing is, do we have the trade chips available anymore to obtain one of them or both?
I think these guys would thrive as Yankees. But I think our chances of getting them just got slimmer. I’m happy we got Granderson, thrilled actually. I’m hoping for another Corner Outfielder not name Cameron though. Way too many strikeouts with Cameron, Swisher, and Granderson.
“their most dependable left-handed reliever last year, Phil Coke.”
So Coke was more dependable than Marte who was hurt until May and out until late August?
He could have pulled that off by just showing up at the ballpark everyday.
blake,
these statistics must be blowing your mind. Who would have thought 5 minutes of research on the internet is more valuable than you unsubstantiated conjecture
didn’t read through the comments but Gammons will be working for NESN and MLB Network/ MLB.com
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....8;c_id=mlb
I’m surprised there are no good rumors tonight.
btw, the Phillies and Lee’s agents have had preliminary talks about an extension.
im fine bringing back pettite for our rotation and just sitting pat.
CC
AJ
Pettite
Hughes
Joba
Gaudin
Mitre?
Mitre was pitching better before he took that line drive off his arm, hes young and was coming off an injury. i think he could give us some innings if we need him to.
Melky wanted by the Cubs ?!?!?
Great !!!
Here’s the “Top 20 CUB Prospects”……
http://www.minorleagueball.com.....-20-prospe
Who’d we like to get ???
I hate dismantling our championship team.
It is conceivable that Damon, Matsui, Coke, Bruney, Hairston, Molina, Hinske, are all gone. We’re losing 1\3rd of our championship team and replacing them with unknowns (Melancon, Pena etc.)
“Alex Rodriguez for his career when faced with the opportunity has made a productive out 29% of the time.
Mike Cameron has made a productive out 26% of the time.”
Are you really comparing a Hall of Fame player and Cameron?
Stick with comparing Cameron with Melky. They are on the same level.
Mitre is rubbish, he just a AAA rotation filler
Tom
You cant be concerned with the past. And right now, 2009 is the past. The Yankees look to the future, and there is no sentiment involved, most of the time.
When it comes to Jeter, things might be different.
Are you really comparing a Hall of Fame player and Cameron?
Stick with comparing Cameron with Melky. They are on the same level.
—
It is a fair comparison based on the stupid nonsense other posters are using to bash Cameron. Nowhere in the post does it say that he’d rather have Cameron than A-rod, or that Cameron is a better player than A-rod.
That is like saying you can’t compare HR totals, or batting average, or whatever against a ‘hof player’. Ridiculous statement to make.
Joba in the pen
December 9th, 2009 at 12:01 am
“Alex Rodriguez for his career when faced with the opportunity has made a productive out 29% of the time.
Mike Cameron has made a productive out 26% of the time.”
Are you really comparing a Hall of Fame player and Cameron?
Stick with comparing Cameron with Melky. They are on the same level.
————————
People are killing Cameron because he does not make “productive outs” enough of the time. I am simply pointing out how utterly meaningless that is considering the best player in baseball makes about the same amount of productive outs.
The point is productive outs mean absolutely nothing. Production matters and Cameron produces
“I’m surprised there are no good rumors tonight”
Unless you count the rumor that Theo is out looking for the nearest bridge this evening now that he realizes he just can’t compete!
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....plays-coy/
“Cameron is another low OBP guy
Pass.”
Actually, that’s misleading. He’s a high ISO D guy (.090) like Swisher. But also like Swisher he’s a low AVG guy.
Mark in Tampa
LOL ! Good one ! Yeah Theo and the Red Sox don’t stand a chance. They better prepare for another wildcard finish.
I actually don’t have any particular fascination with Cameron… I just don’t want Damon back and Cameron seems like the logical replacement.
Phillies are signing Ross Gload. National League teams suck.
I heard somewhere that Damon has no offers, only bs offers emanating from Boras.
Why dont we just sign Holliday so these Cameron talks can stop…..wouldnt you guys want a locked up outfield of Crawford – LF, Granderson – CF, Holliday – RF so when the old farts on the infield exit the Yanks can just focus on that and not both the INF and OF. That would be an unbelievable OF
You can’t say productive outs do not matter. It is a very ignorant view. Productive outs matter at all times, but especially in the playoffs.
Jeter walks. Damon grounds out, but moves Jeter to 2nd. You have a man in scoring position with 2 chances to get him home.
Jeter walks and Cameron strikes out. You now have a man on 1st with 2 chances to get him home.
I like the first situation better. Anyone would. You can’t even argue that point. It’s common sense.
Tom
Many championship teams stayed the same the year after and failed. Examples: 2001 Diamonbacks, 2002 Angels, 2004 Red Sox and so on.
I know that some of you get attached to these players but this is business. It’s about winning, not being nice.
rich in NJ,
Last time Damon was a FA, how many suitors did he really have? Boston gave him a so-so offer they figured he would turn down, and who else besides the Yankees?
Now he is 4 years older, isn’t a CF, maybe isn’t a LF, and is losing his speed too.
If productive outs do not matter, there would be no such thing as a sacrifice fly or a sacrifice bunt. But there are and always have been. So productive out do matter. Case closed.
So I can fully grasp what is being suggested here….Some want to trade the 25 year old Melky and replace him with Cameron who is 12 years older and will cost 7 million ( at least ) more per season……I ask , For What ????
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
What exactly did Cameron produce? In ’09 he had 70 rbi.
Melky had 68.
I really want damon back, i want damon back, and playing left field, this new guy in center.. and melky in right. Swish for braisn on the bench and matsui dh’n. Pettite signed and lackey signed. Play ball
Mark in Tampa
I’m not sure, but I remember that Boras wanted a 7 year contract back then. Yeah, the RS offered $40m for 4 and the Yankees were at $52m. IIRC, the RS were a little ticked that he didn’t let them match.
I would only have interest in him if it was a one year deal.
No to Holliday. What is wrong with some of you. Do you want the yankee payroll to be 300 million ? Come on ! Give it a rest !
This team doesn’t need every all star in the game. Trust some of your prospects and take a chance on other players not superstars all the time. No to Cameron and no to Holliday.
There is not way that Melky would ever start over Swisher.
joba in the pen,
Be careful with those actual production stats. You have to start quoting crazy derivatives and other off the wall rate stats to be taken seriously around here.
Why wouldn’t melky? He’s a better player in every way…
rich in NJ,
Not that it really matters, but I thought the Boston offer was for 3 years, and the Yanks got him primarily because of the extra year.
Damon, Matsui, Coke, Bruney, Hairston, Molina, Hinske
The first 2 yeah. The other guys I lose no sleep
http://www.northjersey.com/spo....._2010.html
I know I said I didn’t care, but man – if Doc ends up on the Sox, ugh……
What is going on here? Bickering about strikeouts?
The fact of the matter is a strikeout is better than hitting into a double play. But striking out is an unproductive out. You have a better chance of getting on base and/or extending an inning by putting the ball into play rather than striking out.
Reaching base on an error is much more likely than reaching base on a passed ball on strike 3.
Anyone who says that strikeouts are better than (fill in the blank) doesn’t have much of a leg to stand on.
Sox are going to do something big— They are not throwing in the towel in ’10. Typical spin from Theo and co… “We can’t compete, it is a transition year”.
They will reel in some big fish.
Man I wish CB was here and get his breakdown on not only Granderson , but this Cameron debate regarding Melky….One player is improving every season, and player B is on a slow decline………I said about 3 weeks ago that the Yankees’ 25 man roster would have at least 4 maybe 5 new players when camp opens on February…..CB are you out there ????????
SI_JonHeyman#mets taking little closer look at lackey after getting sticker shock on middle-rung starters. might rather pay for ace.
about 3 hours ago from mobile
Teixeira, Swisher, Granderson, Posada, and Cameron might strike out 600 times
“Why wouldn’t melky? He’s a better player in every way…”
Than Swisher? Based on what?
Swisher’s OPS+ as 129; Melky’s was 99.
In the words of John McEnroe: You cannot be serious.
Of course the Sox are going to do something……no matter what they say, the know they can put a stake in the Yankees hearts by getting Halladay. The Yankees had better understand this……….
Melky is better than Cody Ranson…..and that’s about it !!!
m
December 9th, 2009 at 12:26 am
What is going on here? Bickering about strikeouts?
The fact of the matter is a strikeout is better than hitting into a double play. But striking out is an unproductive out. You have a better chance of getting on base and/or extending an inning by putting the ball into play rather than striking out.
Reaching base on an error is much more likely than reaching base on a passed ball on strike 3.
Anyone who says that strikeouts are better than (fill in the blank) doesn’t have much of a leg to stand on.
—————————-
You have a better chance in general. However Cameron SO alot more than Melky, yet he gets on base more so apparently SO is not affecting Cameron too much.
And no one said a SO is better. The argument is that they are the same. And if there is any difference it is negligible because pretty much every great offensive force the Yankees have right now including AROD make about the same amount of productive outs as Cameron.
Player B with a better OPS+ than his career line last year and the same defense he has provided his entire career.
Where is the decline?
Why is Halladay a stake in the Yankees heart?
I’m sure the Yankees do understand what a Beckett-Halladay-Lester rotation means for them next year. But I don’t think the fear of that will be enough to make Cashman sacrifice Hughes or Joba plus other guys for 1 year of Doc.
Boston is the desperate party here. Henry also has to be itching to do something and could very well overrule Theo on certain prospects. Simply re-signing Bay does nothing for them, they know that.
“Of course the Sox are going to do something……no matter what they say, the know they can put a stake in the Yankees hearts by getting Halladay. The Yankees had better understand this……….”
What do you want the Yankees to do if the Red Sox get Doc?
….and exactly what player is ‘improving’ ???
Like….how ???
The RS need O more than D.
Even if the Red Sox land Halladay the teams would be about even overall and in the long term the money + prospects the Red Sox would have to give up would work in the Yankees favor.
Repko,
And people still clamor for Dunn and his career avg. of 180 SO/162 games.
Melky was a starter (and contributor) on a World Championship team.
What has Cameron ever won to say he is better than Melky?
Stake in the Yankees’ heart?
Sox one Halladay away?
If the trade is Halladay for Pete Abe, maybe.
Otherwise, what did they give up? Who won’t they sign to extend him? What does this mean for Beckett?
Repko,
And people still clamor for Dunn and his career avg. of 180 SO/162 games.
–
It could also have something to do with his 40 HRs, 100 Runs & RBIs, and perennial ridiculously high on base %
lets go yankees…I sometimes think you visit us here just to be obtuse and a royal pain in the Cameron….He’s 37 years old, he’ll cost 10 million dollars for at least 2 years…..Go back to your fanasty baseball and beat up on all the 15 year olds at their own game…..I watch baseball and evaluate what I see, not so blindly by some b.s. printout……Melky has improved in his 3 seasons in the bigs…..
“It could also have something to do with his 40 HRs, 100 Runs & RBIs, and perennial ridiculously high on base %”
*nods*
What has Cameron ever won to say he is better than Melky?
–
Do you really think that playing in a world series and winning a world series is in anyway applicable to decide how good a player is relative to another player?
So Phil Coke is better than Mike Mussina?
Halladay to the Sox would definitely stink. But, they’ll have less $$ to spend and prospects to acquire offense.
If Halladay happened, the Yankees would sign Lackey like a second after the trade is twittered.
“What has Cameron ever won to say he is better than Melky?”
By your logic, Ernie Banks is worse than Clay Bellinger.
The Red Sox have no LF, a 3B who can barely move, a DH who can no longer produce without steroids, and are expecting a catcher who has caught a total of 140 games the past two seasons to catch the vast majority of their games.
Halladay is far from the solution to all their problems
m: did Mickey Mantle strike out too much for you?
It could also have something to do with his 40 HRs, 100 Runs & RBIs, and perennial ridiculously high on base %
If the Sox got Halladay, we’d probably work to scotchguard our middle relief.
Pat M.
December 9th, 2009 at 12:39 am
lets go yankees…I sometimes think you visit us here just to be obtuse and a royal pain in the Cameron….He’s 37 years old, he’ll cost 10 million dollars for at least 2 years…..Go back to your fanasty baseball and beat up on all the 15 year olds at their own game…..I watch baseball and evaluate what I see, not so blindly by some b.s. printout……Melky has improved in his 3 seasons in the bigs…..
————————–
Yeah some guy posting on a message board is qualified to evaluate baseball players…
Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth both struck out a lot. So did Reggie Jackson. So have a lot of great players.
Are the RS getting Halladay?
“It could also have something to do with his 40 HRs, 100 Runs & RBIs, and perennial ridiculously high on base %”
Forgot to add- Dunn over Cameron
Corey
December 9th, 2009 at 12:10 am
Why dont we just sign Holliday so these Cameron talks can stop…..wouldnt you guys want a locked up outfield of Crawford – LF, Granderson – CF, Holliday – RF so when the old farts on the infield exit the Yanks can just focus on that and not both the INF and OF. That would be an unbelievable OF
———————————————————–
When the old farts exit the infield?
Your first baseman is locked up until 2016. 7 more years.
Your third baseman is locked up until 2017. 8 more years.
Your second baseman is locked up until 2013. 4 more years
Your new centerfielder is locked up until 2013. 4 more years.
Not to mention you have one rotation spot basically locked up until 2015. 6 more years.
And another rotation spot locked up until 2013. 4 more years.
Now you want to lock up two more outfield spots for at least 5 more years at around $20 million per year each.
In 2012/2013, you’d be paying about $160 for 8 players and need a catcher, shortstop, DH, 3 starters, closer, bullpen and bench.
Add another $20 for Jeter (paycut? right…) and imagine if the inhuman Mo is still around?
Sounds like close to $200 million for 10 players to me.
Melky has improved in his 3 seasons in the bigs…..
–
Technically he has degraded, if you start from his first real season in 2006. Other than provide more power ( which makes sense for a guy filling out as he gets older ), he has never hit for as high an average or walked at as good a rate. His .280/.360 line is the best of his career.
Improvement? Where? 2007 he lost his discipline and 2008 he regressed heavily.
Adam Dunn would put up sick numbers with the Yanks. Just absurd.
Many great players strike out a lot. Point is Cameron is not a great player and he strikes out a ton.
Who cares if the Sox get Halladay they still have a bad offense especially outside of fenway. They also have holes in their bullpen with the loss of wagner and saito.
The near future doesn’t look good for the Sox. Even with Haladay they lose Beckett next year and they are right where they left off.
Melky’s first full year in the big leagues was 2006.
His OPS+ that year was 95
Three years later in 2009:
His OPS+ was 99
Improved by how much exactly?
Just to be clear I am a fan of Melky. If he is starting in LF in 2010 I am fine with it. But, if they have the money to improve I want Cameron over Melky and will be happier with Cameron.
Melky looked like he was gonna be much better by now.
Oops. Didn’t realize that Dunn was in the same class as Ruth, Mantle, and Jackson.
I retract my stance.
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
Are you a Yankees fan? What’s the meaning of your handle?
Rose,
but that hasn’t stopped him from being better than Melky, which he is.
Also I love the ‘I watch baseball I see the players I know what Im talking about!’ guys, like the dudes who use stats to backup an argument do not watch baseball.
I have watched as much or more baseball than anyone alive on this earth since 2004 thanks to mlb.tv and affordable baseball tv packages.
Every yankees game, multiple other teams games every day that baseball is on. SO give me a break with that crap.
You know what I see when I watch melky? A guy who has decent plate discipline but doesn’t know how to use it, will swing out of his shoes at ball 4 until he makes an out, and hasn’t been able to put together an above average offensive season his career.
His monthly burst of production where he drives the ball and shows patience is inevitably weighed down by his penchant to chase and chop balls weakly because his lefty swing isn’t that good.
Carl C, I would extend Doc…..it wouldn’t be for 1 year.
Rose, I didn’t say the Yankees should do anything; I’m saying that they need to understand what Doc on the Sox will do. They made the Granderson trade – that practically knocks them out of any Halladay consideration as they’ve already semi-depleted their farm system. It’s great that they won’t move Phil, Joba or Montero – but like Tex signing in NY, Doc to the Sox would be a complete game-changer.
Buddy Biancalana
December 9th, 2009 at 12:47 am
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
Are you a Yankees fan? What’s the meaning of your handle?
————————-
With a few weeks left in the season last year before Detroit’s collapse I noticed that the Twins had a real shot of winning the division b/c they had something like 7 head to head games left with the Tigers. I wanted the Twins in the first round of the playoffs over the Tigers, so to make the last few weeks of the season more exciting I started rooting for them.
M, if the Yankees would do that (sign Lackey), then just go get Doc. Who’s to say Lackey even wants to come to NY? I would not give him the $$$ and years he’s asking for….I’m not saying the Yankees should react by making a bad move, just that their apparent decision not to engage in serious talks for Doc could backfire on them.
How about Guerrero for DH?
How about Guerrero for DH?
–
I would rather have Matsui. If there were a player in worse shape than Matsui it’d be Guerrero and he doesn’t fit the Yankee way. Runs like a grandma, swings at anything. Has bad knees and a bad back.
Matsui just has bad knees.
billy
December 9th, 2009 at 12:51 am
How about Guerrero for DH?
——————
You are better off with a LH DH in YS. I would put Damon, Matsui, and Delgado ahead of Vladdy.
I guess we’ll see, but how much offense would the Sox need with that ridiculous rotation? I think being Yankee fans, we’re trying to see everything about the Sox in a negative light……
Betsy,
Oh, I’m all for that. Just saying that if the Sox got Halladay (doubtful), then we’d counter with something. And it wouldn’t be Jarod Washburn.
We need another veteran pitcher along with Andy. Why not Doc?
Theo is a good GM but he is not the best. Whatever the Red Sox do one trade won’t help them beat the yankees. They have a lot of issues.
Adam Dunn, no, but a high K rate does not in itself disqualify someone from being a good, productive player. I think that’s the point, anyway.
Jerkface
December 9th, 2009 at 12:45 am
Melky has improved in his 3 seasons in the bigs…..
–
Technically he has degraded, if you start from his first real season in 2006. Other than provide more power ( which makes sense for a guy filling out as he gets older ), he has never hit for as high an average or walked at as good a rate. His .280/.360 line is the best of his career.
Improvement? Where? 2007 he lost his discipline and 2008 he regressed heavily.
============================
Exactly.
How many assists vs. errors ???
Throws to home plate are almost closer to first base….stupid player; cannot/will not adjust his throws to compensate for his ‘fade’. Most Little Leaguers figure that out by age 11.
Had a decent series vs. LAA.
Betcha he didn’t get close to the Mendoza line in the Minnesota series !!!
Betcha he didn’t get close to the Mendoza line in the World Series !!!
Clay Bellinger could’ve done that – and he’s probably 40 years old by now !!!!
Rich, nothing is close with Halladay – I just think given what I’ve read tonight (Klapisch, various tweets) that eventually the Sox are going to cave. I hope I’m wrong- I hope it’s just me being overtired – but I’m getting a bad feeling. Of course, I won’t be thrilled if he goes to the Angels either, but still……
Nick, I’m really thinking of 2010, not beyond.
Mike Cameron has made a productive out 26% of the time.
—————————————————-
Melky Cabrera has made a productive out 38% of the time (40% in ’09).
I think this makes up for the .006 more time Cameron gets on base.
Plate Appearance with less than 2 out, runner on third, and scored. ’09
Cameron: 42%
Melky: 53%
Plate Appearance with runner on second, none out, and runner advanced. ’09
Cameron: 36%
Melky: 52%
Those are both consistent throughout their careers.
Will people stop thinking about the Sox. By the looks of things they aren’t going after Halladay. They just want to drive the price up for the yankees. The yankees should pass as well and go after sheets/harden. I say take a chance on halladay if he bceomes a free agent, don’t let your best prospects go to the bluejays.
Don’t trade Montero and Hughes.
Betsy – high on pie
You said you had a bad feeling during the playoffs and throughout the season. It seems like you always have a bad feeling.
M, I agree……I seriously need to get some sleep. Good night !
Jeremy, I haven’t had a bad feeling since the WS ended, lol. I’d rather think the worst and be pleasantly surprised when it doesn’t happen. I’m not sure I really think the Sox are going to get Doc – it might just be one of my moods.
Betsy – high on pie
We all saw the problem for the Red Sox last year lack of offense and they suck on the road. Those are facts. No one here is trying to look at the Sox in a negative light. The Sox had good pitching in the ALDS but their hitters got shut down by Angel pitching.
Stop thinking about the Sox becuase they aren’t that good and that is a fact, not negative bs.
A lineup of
Jeter
Granderson
Teixeria
Rodriguez
Dunn
Posada
Swisher
Cano
Cameron
would be just so drool-worthy. Opposing pitchers will call in sick the day they are scheduled to face us….
The same zealots that were pushing for Mike Cameron over the possible trade for Curtis Granderson are still at it…Now they’re banging on 25 year old Melky…It just seems that Melky at his age is the better option than paying 10 million dollars for 2 years of Mike Cameron…How can you not see this ??? He’s too expensive to be a role / platoon player, so I just cannot see what the fasination is with him…..
Betsy – high on pie
LOL ! Don’t worry Betsy I don’t see the Sox getting Halladay. Unless the price goes down but the Sox still have a number of issues to deal with. The yankees are still the team to beat.
Thanks, Betsy.
…the idea of being able to let Melky be a 4th or 5th outfielder (where he belongs) is just so good to dream about….
Cameron is better. (period)
Ryan Church (if healthy, would also be better)
Betsy – high on pie
What the Yankees gave up for Granderson would not have come close to getting Doc. One has nothing to do with the other.
——————————————–
Phil
You are entitled to your opinion. I feel that Cameron is not that much better than Melky, so why spend money to sign him.
Pat M.
“…Now they’re banging on 25 year old Melky……It just seems that Melky at his age is the better option than paying 10 million dollars for 2 years of Mike Cameron…”
__
First, we’re not “banging” Melky, we’re saying that he is nowhere near as good as Swisher.
Cameron would have been for one year not two.
“Ryan Church (if healthy, would also be better)”
Church has been DFA by the Braves
“I feel that Cameron is not that much better than Melky, so why spend money to sign him”
Based on what though?
I’m sorry but Melky is a 4th OF’er on the Yankees. He was great in ’09, but I don’t have much confidence in him repeating his campaign. Maybe he will, idk and maybe he will do even better, but I really don’t think Cash he is going to be on the starting lineup opening day.
I feel a certain mood of discontent on the blog. Why? Cashman improved the club today with a big move. Can’t wait to see what rabbit he’s going to pull out of the hat next.
I love how he said “pitching, pitching, pitching, and LF.” The Granderson trade qualifies as coming out of LF.
“I feel a certain mood of discontent on the blog. Why?”
Speaking only for myself, I think they sold low on IPK.
the main difference between Cameron and Cabrera is that Cameron has a higher SLG and Melky has a higher Avg. Sure Cameron has been a better fielder, but Melky is adequate in left. the argument is that he’s not $6 mil better than Melky. And because Melky is younger, he’s less prone to injury.
It all comes down to what we each value in a player…
“the main difference between Cameron and Cabrera is that Cameron has a higher SLG and Melky has a higher Avg.”
And a much higher ISO D.
Rich,
I can respect your opinion, but serious question. What player do you think that IPK could’ve brought back? Not even as a headliner, but as a secondary piece?
And I’ve always said that Kennedy would be good because he was a good college pitcher.
And I don’t know that they sold low. He struggled in the majors in 2008, just coming off the aneurism surgery. I do know that he didn’t really have a place on the Yankees. Just buried to deep on the depth chart.
“Ryan Church (if healthy, would also be better)”
Church has been DFA by the Braves
==================================
Concussion issues ???
Rich in NJ
Cameron hit .250 with 24 homers and 70 rbi and although some think it is not important, had 156 strike outs. Salary 10 million.
Melky hit .274 with 13 homers and 68 rbi. Salary 1.4 million.
I don’t see that big of a difference between the 2.
Over the past few weeks, I’ve been hearing about the virtues of Mike Cameron and how he’s a better fit than Curtis Granderson, which of course is sheer rubbish…Now it’s how more valuable he’d be playing left field over Melky……He’s older by 12 years, and he’ll cost 4 time sor so what they’re paying Melky…I must say though, it’s less of a stretch than the Curtis Granderson conversation…..Cameron is the type of guy you acquire when you lose a player to an injury, and that’s about it…..
“And a much higher ISO D.”
———————————
And Melky makes a significantly higher percentage of productive outs. People have been knit-picking about this for days. Can we just agree to disagree? or does that defeat the purpose of the blog? I really need to be studying…
Cameron hit .250 with 24 homers and 70 rbi and although some think it is not important, had 156 strike outs. Salary 10 million.
Melky hit .274 with 13 homers and 68 rbi. Salary 1.4 million.
I don’t see that big of a difference between the 2.
–
I’d say 11 homers and 8 UZR of defense? Because you choose not to perceive differences does not mean they are not there.
m
“I can respect your opinion, but serious question. What player do you think that IPK could’ve brought back? Not even as a headliner, but as a secondary piece?”
IPK’s FB was topping out at 93 in the AFL, and he was getting better at commanding the cutter that Pettitte taught him last season.
I think that if he proved in ST that those gains have a chance to be enduring, he was probably worth a fairly high end OF prospect.
As good as Kennedy may have been going forward, NYY has more pitching in the system that are as potentially good or better….many more.
As far as Cameron vs. Cabrera, going forward, there’s not enough difference in the two to justify the higher cost, while retar-ding or stopping Cabrera’s developement. If you think that he’s not going to progress further….take up knitting. Baseball is not for you.
Rad
As much time as I spent in school, I would never tell anyone not to study. Of course, there was no interweb when I was in school so…
Over the past few weeks, I’ve been hearing about the virtues of Mike Cameron and how he’s a better fit than Curtis Granderson, which of course is sheer rubbish…Now it’s how more valuable he’d be playing left field over Melky……He’s older by 12 years, and he’ll cost 4 time sor so what they’re paying Melky…I must say though, it’s less of a stretch than the Curtis Granderson conversation…..Cameron is the type of guy you acquire when you lose a player to an injury, and that’s about it…..
–
Cameron would be in Center, Granderson would be in left. Much better defense than the other way around.
All I hear about is how melky or cody ransom or *insert scrub here* is better than an actual valuable major league ball player, but its all a bunch of rubbish.
On base percentage, OPS, and wOBA directly correlate to winning percentage in baseball teams. Cameron beats melky in all those areas AND he is a better defender.
I don’t know how it could be made more clear. Cameron makes less outs and creates more outs defensively, its like the best of both worlds! Also melky would still be on the team!
Anyone who has watched melky the last 5 years knows he is not a starter, but a lack of options combined with a strong enough lineup to hide him while they hoped for his development has prevented the Yankees from replacing him.
Look at how easily they took his job away last spring, if A-Jax were still here and had a good spring I bet he’d be the starter next year too.
If you think that he’s not going to progress further….take up knitting. Baseball is not for you.
–
If he does not progress further next season what will you do? I ask this seriously. I like Melky and wish he would get back to hitting like May 2008, but if he shows no appreciable increase in baseball acumen over the next season what will all of you do ?
Gardner is going to outperform both Gardner AND Melky next year, so this issue is moot….
cameron is not that good and his body is breaking down. Why would anyone want a guy like that. This team is trying to get younger not older.
Also he is a former steroid user. We don’t need that kind of attention.
Rich-
So are you saying you don’t like the Granderson deal because IPK was in the package?
I see Mike Cameron as a ballplayer the Yanks would consider picking up at the July dedline for depth, not an everyday player from openning day……..GB, did you make your trip to the Doc’s ????
Would Cameron accept a bench role with us?
Who cares about Melky ? We have so much pop in the lineup that he doesn’t have to be so good. Jerkface give it a rest. You act like your on a mission to tear down Melky when is role is not that great.
And Cameron is not that great. I don’t like him, and he is not that good.
Mike Cameron’s body is breaking down so badly he averaged 149.5 games the last 2 seasons????
“I’d say 11 homers and 8 UZR of defense? Because you choose not to perceive differences does not mean they are not there.”
I said not a BIG difference between the 2.
———————————————-
Ryan Church was DFA to make room for Soriano on the 40 man roster.
IPK is not that good. He is a average back-end starter. Thats it. He was going to get traded anyways because the yankees have so much pitching in the farm. And a lot of the pitchers down there have better stuff than IPK.
I am only viewing melky objectively. And the lineup is no longer strong enough to hide Melky so long as we don’t have a leftfielder or a DH.
I love Melky, on another site we post glorious sonnets in Melky’s honor. However, our blind optimism when it comes to Melky, while fun, is vastly overshadowed by the cold reality that unless he does something awesome he probably won’t have much of a place on the Yankees after next season.
If Gardner pans out he will lose his 4th OFer spot. And next season the Yankees will acquire a LFer unless Melky breaks out.
So far he has shown no signs of doing it. He might just be an average defender and a slightly below average bat. That is a nice player to have for depth when affordable, like Melky is, but its not a starter.
I’d be much safer with Cameron starting on opening day than Melky, just like I, correctly, saw Swisher as a starter on opening day vs Nady.
What will you do when Cameron’s skills continue to decay? Cabrera’s spent the last 3 years in the majors, when at least in 2006, he should have still been polishing his talents in the minors. For all of the whining about OPB+ and the other BS, Cabrera’s still produced as many runs as Cameron, and it will only get better. Wins pay off in runs, not formulas…regardless of what or who came up with them. I’ll take Cabrera’s numbers at 25 over Cameron’s at 37, especially for the cost.
Jerkface…..Cameron is going to want one last payday, so he’s going to ask for 2 years……
Thank you, Jerkface, for watching Melky over these last few seasons and giving an honest and accurate evaluation of his contributions.
(Which are best ‘below acceptable”)
Many here have already ‘drank the Kool-Aid’ on Melky…..and see him more as a ambling pudgy kid with a really “cute” name – not a ballplayer.
The New York Yankees deserve better.
What will you do when Cameron’s skills continue to decay? Cabrera’s spent the last 3 years in the majors, when at least in 2006, he should have still been polishing his talents in the minors. For all of the whining about OPB+ and the other BS, Cabrera’s still produced as many runs as Cameron, and it will only get better. Wins pay off in runs, not formulas…regardless of what or who came up with them. I’ll take Cabrera’s numbers at 25 over Cameron’s at 37, especially for the cost.
–
Congrats on not answering the question. If Cameron starts to break down, I guess I’d go to the depth that the yankees would have behind him: Melky or Gardner, followed by AAA players.
And Cameron was worth 4 WAR , which is 3 more ‘wins’ than Melky.
cameron’s defense is not getting better. Not saying it’s bad but he is not getting younger and he won’t get better. If you want to make a horrible Omar Minaya type investment then getting Cameron is an example of one.
If you want Melky on the bench, and want to upgrade, fine. I just don’t think Cameron is the practical choice. Even if he’s better, he’s not THAT much better. And he’s pretty expensive. Can you think of anything better than an aging, much more expensive, slightly better replacement before you decide to take Melky’s starting job away from him. Even if im not against that, i dont see it for Cameron.
Pat M.
December 9th, 2009 at 1:39 am
I see Mike Cameron as a ballplayer the Yanks would consider picking up at the July dedline for depth, not an everyday player from openning day……..GB, did you make your trip to the Doc’s ????
————————————————————
Yeah, PAT M. I’m still here in Tampa. I’ll be here for another couple of days, undergoing a battery of tests and then, more treatments.
The nurses and doctors say that I’m the best patient they’ve ever had. Then, they were hit by lightning.
Jerkface…..Cameron is going to want one last payday, so he’s going to ask for 2 years……
–
On XM radio he said he’d be open to 1 year on a championship team. He wants to win a ring, not get paid.
cameron’s defense is not getting better. Not saying it’s bad but he is not getting younger and he won’t get better. If you want to make a horrible Omar Minaya type investment then getting Cameron is an example of one.
–
His defense also isn’t getting worse? And even if he was half as good as last year he’d still be twice as good as Melky.
Also Cameron right now is 4 times more valuable than Melky! He isn’t ‘slightly’ better.
Kenny Lofton’s fade will be duplicated by Mike Cameron’s fade in the next season …..Melky is 25 years old, he fits what the club is attempting to do, get younger and less costly….Besides, sometime soon, Derek Jeter could be patrolling leftfield……
Jerkface
December 9th, 2009 at 1:48 am
What will you do when Cameron’s skills continue to decay? Cabrera’s spent the last 3 years in the majors, when at least in 2006, he should have still been polishing his talents in the minors. For all of the whining about OPB+ and the other BS, Cabrera’s still produced as many runs as Cameron, and it will only get better. Wins pay off in runs, not formulas…regardless of what or who came up with them. I’ll take Cabrera’s numbers at 25 over Cameron’s at 37, especially for the cost.
–
Congrats on not answering the question. If Cameron starts to break down, I guess I’d go to the depth that the yankees would have behind him: Melky or Gardner, followed by AAA players.
***And Cameron was worth 4 WAR , which is 3 more ‘wins’ than Melky.***
————————————————————
In who’s opinion? Bill James? Isn’t it strange that in almost none of his fancy numbers, you never see a Yankee near the top, but, they continue to win?
Most of the most valuable yankees were near the top in WAR. WAR pretty much owns as a stat. The guys you expect to be good are.
Pujols, Lincecum, Jeter, Sabathia, A-rod, Teixeira, these are guys that have high WARS.
Players like Melky don’t.
I know you hate Bill James, but I don’t think he created WAR.
Wishing you well GB7!
in almost ***all*** of his fancy numbers, you never see a Yankee near the top
We all remember when the yankees got kenny lofton in 2004 how did that work out ? The same will happen with Cameron if he comes here but worse.
Kenny Lofton never faded, he was excellent until he was 40.
He did this: 296 .367 .414 as a 40 year old. I’ll take that over melky any day.
…..Melky is 25 years old, he fits what the club is attempting to do, get younger and less costly….
=================================================
Get Younger
Get Less Costly
There are many Yankee Fans that very keen to the phrase :
Get Better.
….that was conspicously left out of your Melky wishes/analysis.
We all remember when the yankees got kenny lofton in 2004 how did that work out ? The same will happen with Cameron if he comes here but worse.
–
Torre played the vastly inferior (on defense) Bernie williams over Lofton. He was criminally underused. One of the reasons why Torre was a joke.
Also plenty of yankees lead the league in SABR stats, GB7 I don’t know what nonsense you are spouting. Name some stats that Yankees don’t lead in?
OPS+? VORP? WAR? Yankees will be at the top of all those.
I’m fine with this trade, but the conception that the Yankees have “a lot of guys” like Ian Kennedy is just flat out wrong.
He’s still pretty clearly the third best 25 and under pitching commodity we have, unless you want to include Manny Banuelos, who is so far from the majors that its almost moot. McAllister is bigger and a bit more projectable than Kennedy, but all reports on his stuff cast him as a number 4 right now, one who probably has less probability than IPK.
He’s going to make the Diamondbacks major league roster and be a damn good number 4 starter for them. I’d hardly be surprised to see him toss ~170 innings of 110 ERA + ball.
Im pretty sure Cameron will hold up better than Kenny Lofton. I’m just not willing to take that chance. Especially for that kind of money while Melky is getting the job done.
Buddy Biancalana
December 9th, 2009 at 1:55 am
Wishing you well GB7!
————————————————————
Thanks, Buddy. I figure that this is my penalty for being a lifelong Yankee fan. I’ll still be one for another 40 years.
Jerkface, you just keep buying James’ books and making him rich. You take your fantasy and electronic baseball games too seriously.
Jerkface
Yeah I agree with you on that about Torre. He was a joke especially from 2003-2007. That was around the time Bernie’s defense began to fall apart.
I have this thing called the internet, I can get all the stats I want for free, never paid for a thing in my life related to stats. Keep living in the dark ages, and I’ll be thankful that ‘your kind’ of people have been pushed out from baseball for the past decade.
You once again didn’t answer my question, because, like your opinions, they are best spoken in the dark. Once illuminated they are seen for what they really are. A bunch of BS.
Alright Jerkface and Upstate, at what price do you consider Cameron ???? Then compare it to what the slightly lesser player that is Melky ???? Besides the 12 year age factor, and I remind you that he’s getting paid 80 % of what Cameron makes……Would it not be prudent to take that 8 million dollars and allocate that money elsewhere ???? Matsui, another starter like maybe Ben Sheets????? I’m going to miss Ian Kennedy…I’ve known him since he was an 11 yearold Little Leaguer in Huntington Beach…..He beat my 12 year old All-Star team in 97
Buddy Biancalana
Yes.
Mitchell, Phelps, Noesi, Nova, Heredia, Marte and DeLaRosa all have more potential talent than Kennedy. And that’s not even from the Staten Island team.
I’m telling you IPK is not that good. He is like Michael Bowden and Hunter Jones overhyped can’t live up to hype prospects in the majors. His stuff didn’t impress me that much. We have McAllister and at least he throws strikes, and he projects to be a #4 starter.
Alright Jerkface and Upstate, at what price do you consider Cameron ???? Then compare it to what the slightly lesser player that is Melky ???? Besides the 12 year age factor, and I remind you that he’s getting paid 80 % of what Cameron makes……Would it not be prudent to take that 8 million dollars and allocate that money elsewhere ???? Matsui, another starter like maybe Ben Sheets????? I’m going to miss Ian Kennedy…I’ve known him since he was an 11 yearold Little Leaguer in Huntington Beach…..He beat my 12 year old All-Star team in 97
—
1 year/8 million is what I would pay Cameron. Then I’d try to get Matsui for 1 year/10 million or 2 years / 20 million. Then you have saved 3 million over the cost of Damon/Matsui last season, while greatly increasing overall production.
What I do not consider an option is not signing any left fielder, and starting Melky. All it would take is another slight down year from Granderson to completely render our outfield, outside of swisher, impotent. The lineup couldn’t afford 2 players with a .330 or lower OBP.
I am extremly bullish on Granderson bouncing back though.
My preference for what Cash should do next:
1. Sign pettitte, gotta get him back cause those 200 innings arent gonna pitch themselves
2. Offer to Matsui
3. Offer to Nick Johnson if Matsui declines
4. Offer to Damon at the Yankees price
5. Offer to Cameron if Damon declines
6. Offer to Holliday if the market is right.
7. Get a rehab pitcher / keep Wang as backup.
If I’m Cashman, I would call Rizzo to see what’s the price for Willingham. IF Matsui and Damon goes elsewhere.
IPK might look really good in the weak NL west but he can’t cut it in the AL and esppecially the AL East.
“…take your fantasy and electronic baseball games too seriously…”
But Jerkface is ‘spot-on bullseye’ with Little Melky.
Whether it’s Bill James’ data or actually watching the games that Melky plays….both methods of evaluation bear out that he’s – at best – simply a 4th or 5th outfielder for the Yankees.
Being ‘cute’ doesn’t cut it.
Reality dilutes the ‘Kool-Aid’.
“Then I’d try to get Matsui for 1 year/10 million or 2 years / 20 million”
That’s an overpay for 1 year. For two years, given their pre-existing salary commitments for 2011, and the likelihood that Posada spends considerable time at DH that year, that would be a very poor use of their payroll.
“IPK might look really good in the weak NL west but he can’t cut it in the AL and esppecially the AL East.”
There are plenty of successful pitchers in the AL East with far less stuff.
Signing Cameron would be a good move, but I’m sure he isn’t on the top of the list when it comes to who the Yankees will sign next. Damon and Matsui are both better options than Cameron as far as what the Yankees need next year.
I disagree. If you could get Matsui for cheaper, Great. Lets do that. However I don’t think Posada spends considerable amount of time at DH next season or the season after. He just isn’t a very good DH.
Matsui is a born hitter. Posada is a guess hitter with an ugly swing. I think he will hold up enough at catcher for the next 2 years to live out the life of his contract behind the plate, and the yankees shouldn’t bother putting him at DH because he hasn’t shown an affinity for it in his career.
Now I’m not saying that IPK sucks. But he was overhyped. He is a #4,#5 starter.
….and in addition to Jerkface’s proposal above —
Let’s trade Melky for something worthwhile….
I say we’d get crap.
But others here value him as being so important – he must be able to get ‘big-time’ value for him !!!
If he’s so great and valuable —- exactly who could we actually get for him ???
WHO ???
Rich in NJ,
I’m confused. You think that IPK could’ve brought back an OF prospect? As in a minor leaguer? I’m all for holding onto prospects, but we need to improve the big-league club and I think most would agree we did that. A lot of people who don’t like the trade lament losing Jackson, but he himself is a highly tauted (sp?) OF prospect. Perhaps we should’ve just done a Kennedy-(Austin)Jackson swap?
The only time I’ve seen minor leaguers go for other minor leaguers is for roster manipulation purposes.
Did I read you wrong?
TJ Beam went to college too.
Jerkface December 9th, 2009 at 1:36 am
If he does not progress further next season what will you do? I ask this seriously. I like Melky and wish he would get back to hitting like May 2008, but if he shows no appreciable increase in baseball acumen over the next season what will all of you do ?
———————————–
If the yanks sign Cameron then trade away Melky (or keep him as the 4th OFer), what do you do at the end of the season?
I think it’s the same scenario. no?
It took cameron until age 26 to have a year that was better than Cabrera’s best year, so far. Believe it or not, Cameron didn’t always put up the numbers that you love.
Jerkface, Now first off, last season many here were complaining about Cashman and the Swisher trade because Nick had such a sour 2008 season, yet he rebounded well in the Bronx environment….I see a greater rebound from Curtis Granderson simply for the fact that he’s so much better than Nick…..As for the Yanks leftfield situation, can anyone name the 5 or more leftfielders that were part of the Dynasty teams ….Of course Tim Raines was still a quality ballplayer in 96, but all those teams never really an everyday player that was noteworthy…..Many Melky types at that stage of their carrers
IPK’s biggest detriment was lack of opportunity. Granted he was given the opportunity and squandered it. But I think he could’ve proven himself if New York was in the business of developing back end pitchers in the majors. But the Yankees have to win, and win now so few of our prospects actually crack the rotation.
“Mitchell, Phelps, Noesi, Nova, Heredia, Marte and DeLaRosa all have more potential talent than Kennedy. And that’s not even from the Staten Island team.”
This is an absolutely ridiculous assertion. Just because these guys throw harder than Kennedy do not in any way make ANY of them the pitcher he is. You’re talking about one of the better pitchers in recent college baseball history here who took the minor leagues by storm in his first professional season (and was damn good in the majors before he tweaked his back). He had a rough 2008, but that’s basically the only blip on what’s been a pretty flawless professional career in terms of performance.
Kennedy was still pretty clearly the third best young starting pitcher in the Yankees organization. You think the Diamondbacks would have given up Daniel Schlereth for David Phelps?
Nick in SF…..You enjoying the show tonight ???? LoHud Evening Edition. or early AM if you’re in the East….
Losing Kennedy and Jackson hurts somewhat, but, I can comfort myself knowing that Granderson is playing in center field. I can survive. It also helps to know that NYY has a lot of replacements on the way.
GB,
I kind of wished Cashman call Cleveland to see what they want for Sizemore. Cleveland already got their own Jackson, and that is Mike Brently.
Jerkface, Now first off, last season many here were complaining about Cashman and the Swisher trade because Nick had such a sour 2008 season, yet he rebounded well in the Bronx environment….I see a greater rebound from Curtis Granderson simply for the fact that he’s so much better than Nick…..As for the Yanks leftfield situation, can anyone name the 5 or more leftfielders that were part of the Dynasty teams ….Of course Tim Raines was still a quality ballplayer in 96, but all those teams never really an everyday player that was noteworthy…..Many Melky types at that stage of their carrers
—
I agree on Granderson, he won’t even get on base as much as Swisher, but he provides just as much power and another skillset (speed) that Swisher doesn’t. Look at that statement though, people bagged on swisher all last year even when he was getting walks and hitting bombs. Those same people would bag on Cameron for the same thing.
And sorry but the Dynasty Left Fielders were primarily better than Melky is now. They were not ‘melky type players’. Ledee, Curtis, Raines, those guys got on base, some showed very good power. They all put up lines that exceed Melky’s.
That was also a different time. The yankees have to compete with 2 exceptionally run organizations every year now with Tampa and Boston. Even the Orioles are getting back into it with their young core.
Additionally, in response to the other guys ‘it took cameron until 26′ blah blah blah, Cameron’s first real season was age 24, and was better than any of Melky’s seasons, then he had a down year at age 25, then he started producing like Mike Cameron from 26 on.
Melky had 1 alright year on base wise, sucked for 2, then put up a marginal year.
I’d venture to say that at least 2 of those pitchers will have more than 1 win after 12 ML starts.
Wouldn’t a better barometer of pitcher quality be total career? Which we won’t know for 20 years?
I wasn’t aware pitchers were graded on ‘wins after 12 ML starts’
Ed – campaigning for Josh Willingham (it worked for Gaudin)
December 9th, 2009 at 2:29 am
GB,
I kind of wished Cashman call Cleveland to see what they want for Sizemore. Cleveland already got their own Jackson, and that is Mike Brently.
————————————————————
People complain mostly about Granderson’s strikeouts. Apparently, they haven’t paid any attention to Sizemore’s. Cleveland has no reason to trade Sizemore, anyway. NYY wasn’t getting him for what they gave up for Granderson.
Pat M, entertaining discussion this evening. I have to opt out now, but I look forward to catching up tomorrow.
Hey, could Melky bring back Jonathan Sanchez?????
And like any other stat, WAR should be taken with a grain of salt.
Tori Hunter and Mike Cameron have the same WAR. Is it indisputable that Mike Cameron is just as valuable as Tori Hunter?
Also, Colby Rasmus has a higher WAR than both of them. His ’09 line is: 251/307/407
GB,
that is completely through. glad to have Granderson though.
As long as Kennedy pitches in that airpoty in Arizona and the other West Coast parks, he’ll be fine. I liked Kennedy, but, I like Granderson more. NYY has replacements for Kennedy.
So, again, who could we theorhetically get for the ‘really valuable’ Melky ???
No one will even hazard a guess….because a realistic player in return would be ‘crapola’….
No one’s gonna trade for him – we’re stuck.
Hopefully we’ll get some OF help to move him down to #4 or # 5 on our depht chart…
Who could we get ?????
Colby Rasmus had half as much WAR as either of them. Don’t know what you are looking at. It was all almost all defense because he is a great centerfielder.
Torii Hunter plays a passable centerfield while being a very good offensive player = 4 WAR
Mike Cameron plays elite defense and passable offense = 4 WAR.
Different strokes for different folks.
Jerkface December 9th, 2009 at 2:29 am
“Melky had 1 alright year on base wise, sucked for 2, then put up a marginal year.”
—————————-
This “marginal year” is a 336 OBP.
Mike Camerons career OBP: 340.
By your standards, Mike Cameron is pretty much a marginal OBP player…
IDK. Maybe i’m reading it wrong, but from what i can tell FanGraphs says that Rasmus has a WAR of 4.0, and Hunter and Cameron are both 3.5…
Jerface, are saying that Mike Cameron is a better centerfielder than Tori Hunter ????
As long as Kennedy pitches in that ***airport***
Ed
Look at Sizemore’s stats. He isn’t that much different than Granderson. About the same age and he has some high strikeouts on his resume.
Cleveland needs Sizemore so some people will show up to watch the Indians so they won’t trade him. And if they did they would ask for Hughes and Montero which is a non starter.
Correct, Mike Cameron is a marginal on base player. However he has good power and plays elite defense.
Really, are you guys not getting this?
Melky plays pedestrian defense, and has below average offensive production. His advantages are: He is young so growth is expected, he is cheap because he is young, and he can play every outfield position average to above average.
Disadvantages: Mediocore hitter, fading plate discipline, not enough power, not a good enough hitter to justify lack of plate discipline and power, merely average to below average in center. Bat can’t carry his above average defense in the corners.
Mike Cameron’s advantages: gets on base at an average level, hits for good power, plays elite defense in the outfield and at the premium outfield position.
Cameron’s disadvantages: Doesn’t hit for average, costly compared to melky, old.
So again, we just value different factors differently.
Jerface, are saying that Mike Cameron is a better centerfielder than Tori Hunter ????
—
Defensively? Emphatic yes. Offensively? No.
Combined? Depends on the team. Yankees don’t need Hunter. A team that wants a middlish order bat would want Hunter over Cameron.
Also I am looking at fangraphs right now. Colby is at 2.3
You’re looking at 2010 projections from Fans.
Nick in SF
December 9th, 2009 at 2:35 am
Pat M, entertaining discussion this evening. I have to opt out now, but I look forward to catching up tomorrow.
Hey, could Melky bring back Jonathan Sanchez?????
=========================
That would be great….but overly greedy.
We’d be happy with Celerino Sanchez !!!!
http://www.baseball-reference......ce01.shtml
Although, on this team Melky doesn’t have to produce like a corner outfielder. His production, though less, is adequate for the team. And as long as the team is good, im good.
“You’re looking at 2010 projections from Fans.”
Thanks.
The team won’t be good enough to hide him next year as it stands. We need a DH and a LF.
Of all the moves Cash will make, I expect him to get a guy who can player leftfield before a DH.
I bet he would rather go into the season with Miranda at DH, a complete major league unknown, over Melky at LF.
As long as NY has middle infielders, a catcher and a center fielder that hit like corner outfielders, they can survive with a 3 mil a year corner outfielder.
GreenBeret7
December 9th, 2009 at 2:51 am
As long as NY has middle infielders, a catcher and a center fielder that hit like corner outfielders, they can survive with a 3 mil a year corner outfielder.
======================
…but we don’t have to settle for “slog”….hopefully they’ll find better
If they don’t we have to accept and recognize Melky as a ‘slog’ player.
m
My preference is to maximize assets. To employ an example I have used before, if you sold a stock last March, you would have done so at a 30%-40% discount than if you sold it today or in March 2008. Why would you do that unless you needed the money?
Similarly, IPK has dominated MiLB. As I said, he seems to have regained his health and learned another pitch. If he can demonstrate that over a longer time horizon, his value would go up.
The Yankees just won the WS. They can make deals on their terms, and failing that, they can stand pat.
I’m talking about trading IPK for an OFer, for example, that is as close to the MLs as he is.
Someone similar to Matt Joyce. That would fill a need on the ML roster and the move would be cost effective.
The other reservation I have is that I think they are running out of redundant pieces if they want to trade for Halladay.
Someone like Matt Joyce.
Melky for Matt Joyce ???
Celerino Sanchez, We were in Fort Lauderdale together in the Spring of 1973…..Spoke no english at all….It was clear that they needed a 3rd baseman….His name Graig Nettles…
“Matsui is a born hitter. Posada is a guess hitter with an ugly swing. I think he will hold up enough at catcher for the next 2 years to live out the life of his contract behind the plate, and the yankees shouldn’t bother putting him at DH because he hasn’t shown an affinity for it in his career.”
I don’t see Posada catching more than 100 games this season, and considerably less than that in 2011 when he will turn 40. Players can adapt to being a DH.
Posada’s career OPS+ is 124. Matsui’s is exactly the same. Posada is a student of the game. He has found the flaw in more than one of his teammates’ swings when they were in a slump. Matsui his issues. For example, we don’t know how long Matsui’s knees will hold up.
Again, I think Matsui can be signed for one year at around $6m.
There is no way I would give him two years, and I think the Yankees agree.
Pat M.
December 9th, 2009 at 3:01 am
Celerino Sanchez, We were in Fort Lauderdale together in the Spring of 1973…..Spoke no english at all….It was clear that they needed a 3rd baseman….His name Graig Nettles…
—————-
Him (and also Jerry Kenny) – let the ground ball thump them in the chest; pick it up; throw them out !!!
“Although, on this team Melky doesn’t have to produce like a corner outfielder. His production, though less, is adequate for the team. And as long as the team is good, im good.”
Why do you want to give away outs?
Rich in NJ
December 9th, 2009 at 3:06 am
“Although, on this team Melky doesn’t have to produce like a corner outfielder. His production, though less, is adequate for the team. And as long as the team is good, im good.”
Why do you want to give away outs?
=====================
“…because he’s so adorable… and golly !!! he’s only 25 !!!…”
BFD.
I need to sleep. GN
G’nite….what’s on SYFY ???
Bring back both Matsui and Damon.
1) Jeter, SS
2) Damon, LF
3) Teixeira, 1B
4) Rodriguez, 3B
5) Matsui, DH
6) Posada, C
7) Cano, 2B
8) Swisher, RF
9) Granderson, CF
You can rotate things in the outfield, occasionally having Melky play for Granderson against tough lefties, giving Damon blows, and spotting for Swish during his dreadful slumps; Damon can also DH some. Girardi will find a way to get Melky at least 300 at bats.
There doesn’t seem to be much of a market developing for both players, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Damon return on a 2 year, 20 million dollar deal and Matsui on a 1 year, 8 million dollar deal. Factoring in the reduction in their annual salaries from last year the Granderson acquisition essentially adds nothing to the payroll.
G-C….Not a bad set-up…..Melky is now the defensive replacement…Damon is going to want to heavy a contract…I much rather having Matsui than Damon though….
Jerkface,
You obviously put a lot of faith in these defensive statistics.
Can you explain Coco Crisp’s fielding values from 2005-2008? There are examples like this all over the place where guys go from being one of the best defensive players in the league statistically, to mediocre or bad, and then back to one of the best.
I think it’s fine to use these stats as part of an argument, but that can’t be all you’ve got if you want to have a strong argument.
I know it doesn’t make a great deal of sense, however I just think the Yanks will be keeping very close tabs on The Doc……If things become managable it terms of players involved, Hallady could end up in The Bronx……He just fits the Yankee profile
Let’s go yanks,
Listen I’m not going to stay up all night argueing with you over whether or not strikeouts are bad. You have your opinion and I have mine so let’s just leave it at that.
As for Cameron, you have never answered this question. Why would the Yankees who are trying to reduce payroll and get younger sign Cameron when they have a much younger much cheaper and a similar caliber player already on the team in melky. It kinda goes against logic
Wow – good morning?
I came to revel a little in the Granderson trade, and all I see is Melky-bashing.
Interesting note on that – last night on XM, Kevin Kennedy thinks Melky’s a good player for the Yankees – can play all outfield positions, has some pop, hits decent at the bottom of the lineup and has good hustle. (He beat out a lot more infield hits than I ever would have thought – the man worked hard all year). It’s all in your expectations, I guess. If you’re looking for Mays or Mantle, no, Melky’s not the guy. But he doesn’t have to be a superstar, or even an all-star.
Anyway, I still love that the Yankees got Granderson.
And I think IPK is going to be a really good pitcher for the Diamondbacks and wish things had worked out a little differently. I know lots of people don’t like IPK, but I always have.
So, what’s next for Cashman? And will it happen this week, or is the rest of the week all laying groundwork for future deals and/or signings?
I said all along that I don’t think that much of Granderson and don’t like the deal. Not because of what they gave up but because of what they got. That being said now that he’s a Yankee, please let me be wrong. GO CURTIS!
doreen,
Its not so much melky bashing as it is that a few people on here want the Yankees to sign Cameron and that’s just how they are making their flawed and illogical arguments
blake -
Thanks for the explanation.
But why would the Yankees want Cameron now? Last year, under different circumstances, he might have a good “get.” Maybe.
Melky has been the popular whipping boy since joining the big club.
It doesn’t make any sense to me about the bromance of Cameron. He would be OK to add, but I just don’t see the value he would bring that justifies the cost.
Too many just get fixated by their own views, then bash anything that Cashman has done or not done because they wanted differently.
Somehow I don’t think Cashman will get his ideas on how to run the Yankees on what gets posted on a blog.
Repeating the same thing over and over doesn’t enhance the point either.
I think the Next order of Business is to sign Pettite and Damon.
I think 2 years 20 million is about right for Damon. He can play Left and can cycle in and out of our rotating DH spot.
YES. the same rotating DH spot that kept our aging players nice and fresh.
Damon has 2 years left. i’ll take .270 15 hrs and 70 rbis for the next two years. His Defense is a non-factor because Melky and Gardner will take over in late innings.
By the way. Whats wrong with Melky ?. Seriously its nice to have some homegrown kids on the team ! .
Rich, Granderson is much better than a high-end OF prospect…….are you valuing a total unknown over a very good major league ballplayer?
For those worried about CG, ESPN showed his stats since 2006 compare with Jimmy Rollins.
Doreen, it makes no sense. It would be much more beneficial to take the 8-10 million that Cameron would cost and spend it on pitching.
Rich, I don’t get it. You don’t like IPK for Granderson, but you like him for Matt Joyce?
Boy, Melky has some fan club. I’m not getting into the Cameron discussion, but talk about overrating a player…….
Doreen, why is criticizing a player labled bashing? Melky isn’t that good……
You also came to the wrong place if you’re looking to revel in the trade. If you were here yesterday, I’d say about 85% of the fans absolutely loathed the trade……..
I mean overrating Melky..
2 observations.
1. We need a new rumor. Any rumor. I’m sick of hearing about Mike Cameron.
2. Cameron is a FA, right ? We would not inherit an existing, bad contract ? I keep hearing $8-10m. No way that is a good number. Abreau, a better player, got $6m last year. I think Damon, also a better player, will be hard pressed to get more than $10m per today.
I can’t see anyone paying $8-10m for Cameron. It just makes no sense. Maybe it happens, but I don’t think it will.
I think people are just looking at his current salary and extrapolating it out (b/c prior to last year, salaries never went down). Well guess what, it is a different world now. More power to him if somebody is willing to pay, but he is 37, whiffs a lot and is basically an average player. That ain’t worth $10m anymore.
How Scott Boras will handle his clients is a big question.
Most fans would believe that for position players, the players that would command the biggest contracts would be Holliday, Damon, and Figgins.
Figgins paved the way with a $9M per year deal. With the market being what is is, and Damon being 5 years older than Figgins, he should get no more than a 2-year deal at $8 per year.
Better to go with Matsui now that the outfield has been settled.
We’ll see if this is true:
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....uk3TKslVlI
I always think its kinda funny when people star coveting player via trade that there have been no indication made that they are even remotely available. I feel like i’m eventually going to see this:
“I think the Yankees should trade for Hanley Ramirez, Tim Lincecum, Albert Pujols and Miguel Caberera and if there is space left we should definitely try and get Chris Carpenter and Ian Kinsler. That would set us up at OF, DH and bench as well as SP! Think about that line-up!
We’ll trade Romaine, some mid to low AA an A ball prospects and Melky.
That should do it…just as long as we don’t touch Joba, Hughes or Montero.”
Somtimes I think people think they are dealing with baseball cards and not real players.
Betsy, melky isn’t a great player and people aren’t argueing that he is but he does make much more sense for the Yankees than Cameron which is all people are saying.
As for the trade, I love it unless Jackson could have been used to aquire Halladay. If that was never a possibility them I think its a slam dunk for the yanks. Ill take a proven good CF over a might be good Cf anyday especially of I have the Yankees resources.
Forget what I just posted.
Not really……..Montero and Joba/Hughes? The Jays have no prayer of getting Montero, nevermind Montero and one of the young pitchers.
It’s probably the Angels stepping up – just have to hope that Doc refuses to sign an extension because either he (a) wants to test FA or (b) doesn’t care to play in CA longterm
Betsy -
First, I did come here yesterday a few times. There were as many for as against, I’d say most just being slightly hesitant as opposed to absolutely against the trade.
Second, I don’t think I’m overrating Melky. I said he’s a good player, not a great player. Which I think is about right.
And the stuff with Melky has a history – it’s not just criticizing. There are people who absolutely hate having Melky Cabrera on the team. But I also think that people’s expectations were way too high. He’s a good player. He’s not a superstar, not an all-star, but he’s good. How did I overrate him?
And it’s okay to underrate, bash and otherwise criticize every single player on this team, but it’s not okay to take a positive outlook and try to see a player in a favorable light?
Maybe I am coming to wrong play anymore.
Blake, Heyman was on WFAN earlier and he said the Jays liked Jackson – that’s what he had written in an earlier story. Who to believe – Heyman or SJ?
We have catchers, but the Jays are fixated on Montero; I suspect they don’t know about Romine or they’re not interested. It appears they really want to get something done sooner rather than later – I still think the Angels are the team.
gb7 – any love for garcia, kontos, mcallister or pope? older possibles are aceves, gaudin, hirsh, horne, igawa
and mitre. i’d say we are loaded with AAA/AA starters still.
EdWhitson
December 9th, 2009 at 8:27 am
2 observations.
1. We need a new rumor. Any rumor. I’m sick of hearing about Mike Cameron.
*******************
I second this!
Melky is valuable to what he does for the Yankees. That’s different than just looking at raw stats and drawing conclusions.
If that was the way to build a team, the Yankees would have won 4-5 more championships from 2001-2008 when they filled the roster with every “name” guy on the planet. Some (like Giambi) had all the stats Bill James wannabes loved.
Certain guys fit certain teams better than others because their roles are what a particular team needs. That’s Melky’s strength as a player in the Yankee lineup.
With Giambi for example, he made the Yankees a weaker team for years because his play declined and his contract was an albatross for the organization, limiting their lineup and roster options.
Melky Cabrera played a good sized role in helping the Yankees win this year.
I don’t see what bringing in Mike Cameron would do since he isn’t that much better than Melky at this stage of his career.
I’d rather put that money toward pitching. Especially since, there is no way they don’t add another veteran arm (aside from Andy) to the mix.
I don’t see them starting the year with both Hughes and Chamberlain in the rotation.
ok slow morning and I’m bored at work so here’s a plan that I think could work for the Yanks.
Payroll as of now, aprox.. 175 counting granderson.
Sign pettite for 10M that makes it 185M, sign Holliday for 5 years at 15 M per year. That makes it 200M.
Now at this point you can stop and have a less payroll than 2009 or spend a little more and sign either Damon/matsui to a one year deal to DH or sign a pitcher like Sheets to round out the rotation. I would prefer to sign a pitcher because I think the DH can be filled from within.
Now I’m not saying this is what they will do or even that this is the best option but it is an option
ooops! add wang and bleich to the various roster mixes.
Betsy, the Yankees can still get Halladay but they will have to bid more than the angels
“If that was the way to build a team, the Yankees would have won 4-5 more championships from 2001-2008 when they filled the roster with every “name” guy on the planet. Some (like Giambi) had all the stats Bill James wannabes loved.”
Of please. Those teams suffered from bad luck (2000 WS, 2004 ALCS), bad managing (2003 WS, 2004 ALCS), and underwhelming starting pitching (2003-2008).
It had nothing to do with gritty role players v. big money players.
“If you’re looking for Mays or Mantle, no, Melky’s not the guy.”
Neither is Cameron, for all of you who think swing and miss Cameron is so much better than Melky.
Betsy – high on pie
Joyce was just a late night/early morning sleep deprived example.
I like maximizing assets. I don’t think the value of IPK was maximized.
Matt Holliday is going to get a lot more than 15 million a season.
He’s making 13.5 now, and has the Red Sox, Braves, Giants, Mariners and possibly the Mets all bidding on him.
He’s going to get at least 18 million per season and the Yankees aren’t going to go there for him.
SJ. You don’t know what they are bidding. Until there is an offer on the table for Holliday that is that high I’m not buying it.
The Yankees are NOT giving two years to Damon or Matsui.
Rich,
Those teams suffered from a lot more than bad luck.
They suffered from an inflexible roster due to bad contracts.
They had to carry 3 first baseman because Giambi could barely play the position.
Their pitching suffered because they just went after names and not really delved into the market properly.
Their farm system suffered because all of the money went to free agents. They are just beginning to see the fruits of spending 4 years rebuilding the system.
Ian Kennedy brought back an all star CF. If that’s not maximizing assets (since Kennedy hasn’t won a game in the majors in 2 years and is coming off a serious injury), I don’t what is.
yanksince57 – FINALLY!!!
December 9th, 2009 at 8:37 am
gb7 – any love for garcia, kontos, mcallister or pope? older possibles are aceves, gaudin, hirsh, horne, igawa and mitre. i’d say we are loaded with AAA/AA starters still.
————————————————————
Mcallister was mentioned already. Kontos, Garcia and Horne won’t be of much use for the next year. Same with Mitre. Pope, who knows. He started out just fine, but, seems to have stalled out. I have a vested interest in Ryan Pope. He’s from Savannah and the second pro baseball player from the Savannah College Of Art And Design. Igawa’s a fine pitcher….in Japan. Gaudin has uses….if he finally starts using his time learning from guys like Sabathia, Rivera and Pettitte.
Blake,
Actually, I do know since I know the agent involved.
You can choose not to buy it but, if you think Matt Holliday is going to get a 10% pay raise as a free agent, you just don’t understand how things work.
He’s going to make close to, or exceed, 100 million with his free agent contract and its not coming from the Yankees.
I think what 2009 showed was that chemistry matters. It is hard to sign / trade for guys that are chemistry adders vs. chemistry detractors, but make no mistake, it matters.
Swisher and Melky both contributed from a production standpoint, but also brought some intangibles – that made the team looser and more relaxed. Cano brought some youthful enthuiasim. Hairson, Molian were professional veterans. AJ was okay, but the pies were legendary.
Sure, you need to have talent (Jeter, A-Rod, Teixera, CC) that can flat out bring it, but you need chemistry as well.
Think about 2003/2004. The teams seemed uptight, stressed, did not click and did not win. There was a lot of individual talent (Sheff, Giambi), but it just did not happen forus.
The 2009 team had fun and it showed. That is part of the reason, why we won.
I don’t susbscribe to the altar of “gritty role players”, but chemistry matters.
SJ,
As I said, their problems were multi-faceted, and while it’s true that they had bad contracts which played a role in their starting pitching problems, I think the primary reason for those pitching problems was that they weren’t developing any homegrown starters of their own except for Wang in 2005. I think that was the result of bad drafting not bad contacts.
As a result, Cashman, by his own admission, had to seek patchwork trade options like Weaver, Brown, Randy Johnson, and Vazquez.
Truth be told, I supported the Vazquez trade, despite his having lead the NL in abuse points in 2003, but if Cash had opted for Schilling instead, the Yankees might have won two WS from ’04-’08.
IPK+AJack+Coke brought back Granderson. I would have preferred to trade Aceves or McAllister instead.
If Granderson’s D reverts to its 2007 level, and he improves v. LHP, it will be a much better trade.