Welcome to Day Two
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 08, 2009 
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As Day Two gets started in Indianapolis, there are some important facts and one rumor that probably won’t go away anytime soon.
Potential free agents who were offered arbitration had until midnight last night to accept. Most declined and became free agents. Relievers Rafael Betancourt and Rafael Soriano (who’s been linked to the Yankees) were the only Type As to accept arbitration. Carl Pavano was the only Type B to accept.
That’s significant only because it further defines the free agent market. Getting Soriano would require a trade with the Braves, but Jason Marquis, Mark DeRosa, Justin Duchscherer, Brandon Lyon and the rest are fair game.
The rumor that’s sure to generate discussion — and was already creating buzz last night — is the proposed three-way trade that would send Curtis Granderson to the Yankees, with Ian Kennedy, Austin Jackson, Phil Coke and Mike Dunn being shipped to the Tigers and Diamondbacks. The blockbuster was apparently proposed by Arizona and – no surprise – the Diamondbacks would seem to be the obvious winners in the deal. The Yankees would have gotten the best player while also giving up the best prospects. The Tigers would have given up the only proven big leaguers.
Stay tuned, but early word was that the deal was rejected by at least one team, maybe two. A trade like that will create buzz whether it has legs or not.
UPDATE, 9:50 a.m.: It now seems that every report on the three-way Granderson trade says it’s either highly unlikely or completely dead.
I don’t like the trade – giving up too much, especially if A-Jax can be a legit CF option.
Steep price for a .249 hitter.
curtis granderson for Ian Kennedy, Austin Jackson, Phil coke and Mike Dunn?? That’s an awful lot of young talent for one player… I’m guessing the yanks would have been one of the teams which rejected the deal..
I should have followed the link before commenting. It’s funny to read:
” The proposed deal is being pushed by the D-Backs, but was rejected by at least one of the two other teams, the source says.”
Why is this news then? Every team can float trades that put them in a winning position, only to have the other teams (one or BOTH) reject the trade. No, this is not news.
If Brian Cashmann pulls the trigger on this trade, he’s on the way out of NY!
This would, in my opinion be a disaster of a deal. 4 players with ML experience and/or promise for on Center Fielder who cant hit lefties… DO NOT DO IT.
Are all people that exited about Curtis?? The Yankees loose bullpen depth plus one promising prospect and one prospect who could me a pleasant back up surprise.
We hope Austin Jackson is as good as Granderson. I’ll do a similar deal if I was Cashman with tweak here and there.
WHat a hot load this is. I hate Arizona for even more reasons now. Can’t we just give that state back to Mexico?
This deal sucks for us because we are giving away too much. Remove Jackson and I’d do it.
Blackaccord
December 8th, 2009 at 8:50 am
curtis granderson for Ian Kennedy, Austin Jackson, Phil coke and Mike Dunn?? That’s an awful lot of young talent for one player… I’m guessing the yanks would have been one of the teams which rejected the deal..
Hey why not just ask for Joba, Hughsie, & Montero to boot!
Not a fan of that trade. Seems like the Yankees would be giving up a lot for one player.
I agree .. we’d be giving up WAY too much.
Laura,
I wouldn’t include Dunn or Jackson. It would be more like Kennedy, Coke, Melky & Snickelfritz.
“This deal sucks for us because we are giving away too much. Remove Jackson and I’d do it.”
You’re not getting Granderson without Jackson. I think Cashman is going to make the deal one way or another.
I find reporters usually get the main players right, but lose the details. For instance, the Yankees probably want Curtis and may part with some combination of AJAX, IPK, Coke and Dunn, but not all 4. This reminds of the Randy Johnson were every hour there were new players named and the ultimate trade was different.
Crawdaddy,
There is no way Ajax goes for Granderson. That chip is reserved for Doc, and that’s it.
EVERYONE! This is a terrible deal for the Yanks! CASH run away fast!!!!! I’d rather pay Damon 20 Mil than do this deal!!!!!
“Crawdaddy,
There is no way Ajax goes for Granderson. That chip is reserved for Doc, and that’s it.”
Halladay isn’t coming to the Yankees.
josh: thank you for the coverage.
if you talk to Cashman, please tell him: GET CURTIS GRANDERSON
“You’re not getting Granderson without Jackson. I think Cashman is going to make the deal one way or another.”
I’m not comfortable parting with Jackson to get Granderson. I’d give him up to get Halladay, but only if I get to keep Joba, Hughes and Montero. Sounds like I don’t want to give up anybody. It’s a good thing I’m not the Yankees GM.
“Halladay isn’t coming to the Yankees.”
I agree Crawdaddy. But we have to hold onto or chips for the big player, and Granderson isn’t it.
Best pitcher in that proposed 3 way deal is Scherzer IMO.
Halladay isn’t coming to the Yankees.
neither is Granderson at that price.
“EVERYONE! This is a terrible deal for the Yanks! CASH run away fast!!!!! I’d rather pay Damon 20 Mil than do this deal!!!!!”
Then you’re not very smart because Jackson at his best is nothing, but a right-handed version of Granderson without his power.
“neither is Granderson at that price.”
Granderson has a much better chance of being traded to the Yankees than Halladay.
crawdaddy
“Then you’re not very smart because Jackson at his best is nothing, but a right-handed version of Granderson without his power.”
And you’re not very smart if you’re going to give up four prospects for a .249 hitter.
Snickelfritz. No Way! This guy has HOF written all over him. He has been the best player the Yankees have ever signed and is a lock to be a name more recognized than Babe Roof.
That is the straw that broke this deal.
“This deal sucks for us because we are giving away too much. Remove Jackson and I’d do it”
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remove Austin Jackson, and the above trade is no fairer than Austin Jackson for Jarod Washburn at the 2009 trade deadline.
Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy, and 1 of Phil Coke/Mike Dunn. Would prefer not to give up 2 LHP’s.
granderson = career .210 hitter vs lefties, with a overall batting average trending the wrong way and will (does?) want to get paid like none of it’s going on. According to fangraphs his UZR has plummeted as well, so Ajax, IPK and coke? Don’t think so.
“And you’re not very smart if you’re going to give up four prospects for a .249 hitter.”
I didn’t say I would pay 20M to Damon either.
By the way, stop overvaluing our prospects. Some of them are good, but they’re not that good.
“And you’re not very smart if you’re going to give up four prospects for a .249 hitter”
————————————-
yeah, because young all-star centerfielders who play excellent defense, hit 23 triples in a season, have 30 homerun power, and are model citizens off the field are a dime a dozen.
curtis granderson is a platoon player – only on this blog.
I’d trade AJax for Granderson, but not 3 pitchers along with him.
Granderson would be a good replacement for Damon.
Snickelfritz is a legend in the pan-south atlantic American Euro league.
Fuhgeddaboutit!
Ridiculous trade for a .250 hitter who can’t hit lefties.
Kennedy, AJax, Dunn & Coke? Really guys?
If you’re gonna burn prospects, burn ‘em on pitching (Halladay, King Felix). Not this guy.
No wonder it’s being floated by AZ – guess who gets the best of that deal?
Just say no Cash.
For those players plus Melky or Gardner they should get Granderson and Edwin Jackson. If that were possible I would do it. Might have to upgrade from Dunn to Melancon or McAllister to seal the deal.
Then you sign Pettite and the Joba/Phil battle for # 5 starter sends the “loser” to the eighth inning role.
Granderson stinks vs LHP, but the way the Yanks mash lefties teams don’t go out of their way to throw them. You hit Granderson second against RHP and seventh or eighth vs LHP. They guy is a helluva player.
Crawdaddy,
You are undervaluing our prospects. If we give up that much for one player, who’s not even the best at his position, we’re telling the league our best prospects are not so good.
Snickelfritz is the next Buchholzkelly!
“I’d trade AJax for Granderson, but not 3 pitchers along with him.
Granderson would be a good replacement for Damon.”
Looks like Cashman wants to do the deal, but wants to tweak the components. I think Jackson has to be in the deal for the Tigers so it will be interesting to see what Cashman and Dombrowski do going forward.
Curtis Granderson + Austin Jackson = Curtis Jackson.
“Kennedy, AJax, Dunn & Coke? Really guys?
If you’re gonna burn prospects, burn ‘em on pitching (Halladay, King Felix). Not this guy.”
This group of four doesn’t get you a sniff of either guy. And Coke isn’t a prospect folks. He’s a 27 year old LOOGY.
Chad – you don’t consider Phil Coke a proven big leaguer?
“You are undervaluing our prospects. If we give up that much for one player, who’s not even the best at his position, we’re telling the league our best prospects are not so good.”
You don’t even make any sense!
“This group of four doesn’t get you a sniff of either guy. And Coke isn’t a prospect folks. He’s a 27 year old LOOGY”
————————————————–
thank you for the reality check. It is needed.
curtis granderson is a platoon player – only on this blog.
Actually he’s a platoon player because of the .200 batting average he has against Left Handed pitching.
“This group of four doesn’t get you a sniff of either guy. And Coke isn’t a prospect folks. He’s a 27 year old LOOGY.”
And not a very good one at that with his homerun throwing butt.
“You don’t even make any sense!”
That’s cuz UR not paying attention!
“Actually he’s a platoon player because of the .200 batting average he has against Left Handed pitching.”
If the Yankees make the trade they think he’s more than a platoon player and that they can improve his approach against lefty pitching.
I actually think that the trade is good for Arizona and Detroit actually.
I’m thinking Cashman didn’t like the prospects Arizona was trying to send back to the Yankees.
Tigers replace Edwin Jackson and Granderson with AJax and Scherzer, plus they get two relievers for their troubles.
Arizona would get two pitchers they could plug into their rotation immediately, and Jackson is likely as good as Scherzer or better.
Yankees would get a CF, who although I do like him, his numbers have been trending in the wrong direction for the past three years.
If you’re Cashman you have to be sure that Granderson can rebound. If not you just gave up your CF of the future and three pitchers for a guy that’s a platoon player.
“You are undervaluing our prospects. If we give up that much for one player, who’s not even the best at his position, we’re telling the league our best prospects are not so good”
—————————————
this is not remotely logical
So if the Yanks get Granderson, are they backing away from Damon all together or do they plan to platoon Damon and Granderson in LF?
“That’s cuz UR not paying attention!”
I’m done paying attention to the likes of you because you’re wasting my time.
The Yankees didnt offer up this trade. It was requested. Stop yelling and screaming about the Yanks giving up too much. If the Yanks are going to get Granderson, Austing Jackson is going back to Detroit. That’s a fact. Coke and Dunn being included is not a problem. And those three guys should get the deal done. Adding Kennedy would be a deal breaker for me unless the prospect (not mentioned by Chad but was part of the proposal) coming back from Ariz was almost ML ready.
Also, Granderson is signed to a very team friendly contract. So you wouldnt have to give him any sort of extension.
If we miss out on this steal I hope cash money can still get a warm lunch out of dealing away the lowly Ajax and washed up IPK.
I wasn’t implying those 4 would get you Halladay or Felix.
Get real.
But you can package them along with others (prospects or ML ready). Not burn them on essentially a platoon player (yes, he’s full time, but he can’t hit lefties).
And yes, I know Coke isn’t a prospect. Thanks for the clarification.
In 2008 Granderson had a .739 OPS against LHP, so it’s not hopeless.
I’d rather upgrade the package and include Edwin Jackson and leave Arizona out of it altogether. If that can be done than Austin Jackson/Ian Kennedy at the top of the package would be a legit price for a 29 year old CF and 26 year old starter.
I assume Swish goes to LF and Melky RF.
“If you’re Cashman you have to be sure that Granderson can rebound. If not you just gave up your CF of the future and three pitchers for a guy that’s a platoon player.”
Ray,
I agree with you there.
Doesn’t Jackson’s ceiling = Granderson?
Also, from all indications, the Yanks and Tigers both declined the deal.
Granderson a platoon player…?yeah right
Are those the same people who think Gardner is a better player then Melky..?pfff
I wonder who the 2 Diamondback prospects are?
Are they good enough to flip for Halladay? That’s the only way this deal makes sense. Otherwise, it is another winter meetings rumor that only gets us hyped up.
If they are good enough to flip with Joba for Doc, then do it. I mean that’s a lot of prospects out the door but you get Granderson in CF and Doc on the staff. And you only give up Joba and Ajax? Imagine that?
Vinny-b
What I’m trying to say, it is better to over-value your prospects, than just give them away. The Yankees have always hyped their prospects to try and jack up the price for them. But in this case I think our guys are worth more than Granderson in this trade scenario.
Thanks raymagnetic – voice of reason.
And you communicated it better than I did
Crawdaddy,
Have a good one Playa!
Mark in Tampa
December 8th, 2009 at 8:43 am
“Felix is not (and I refuse to engage in any speculation about him. He’s 2 years away from FA and I expect he’ll be re-signed by the M’s)”
Just saw this AM on MLBnetwork that Felix is talking to the M’s about a contract. He is reportedly looking for 6/100M. If the M’s won’t pony up for that, they deserve to lose him.
Hopefully, now that Adrian has officially declined arb, the M’s can get busy in earnest.
Although – according to his agent, there’s no rush…
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ons_w.html
Is it really a smart idea to have Hughes and Joba battle for a rotation spot in spring training? I don’t think so.
Don’t they say that you should never trust numbers in March and September? They’re going to battle for a rotation spot when they really should just be getting ready for the season and working on building up arm strength? Just doesn’t make sense at all.
I also think it’s a very bad idea to stick either Hughes or Chamberlain in the pen. If that’s the plan the Yankees might as well trade one of them.
The Yankees worked hard getting Chamberlain’s innings up last year so that he could be a starter with no limitations. Doesn’t make sense to stick him in the pen now without seeing if your hard work last year pays off.
Hughes, if you put him in the pen now, when is he ever not going to have an innings limit? Put him back in the pen and you’ve burned a golden arm in my opinion.
Chad,
Who is the best player available in the rule 5 draft? Who do you see that Yanks taking (although I would assume it would be the same person)? This could become one of those trades that people discount now but turns out to be another steal like swisher was last year.
Remember, whoever the Yanks take in the Rule 5 draft is a player that has to stay on their 25 man roster all year. If not, they lose the player back to the original team for 25k.
because of that, my guess is it will be someone they think can stick in their pen.
“I’d rather upgrade the package and include Edwin Jackson and leave Arizona out of it altogether. If that can be done than Austin Jackson/Ian Kennedy at the top of the package would be a legit price for a 29 year old CF and 26 year old starter”
Only reason for getting Arizona in the deal is because they like Scherzer more than IPK, which I can understand and agree with.
Just read Schlereth (sp?) was one of the D’back prospects involved.
So if the Yanks get Granderson, are they backing away from Damon all together or do they plan to platoon Damon and Granderson in LF?
******************************
I was thinking that if the Yanks get Granderson he becomes the everyday LF and they don’t resign Damon.
“Who is the best player available in the rule 5 draft?”
Pirates pick 2nd. In a chat I read on Baseballprospectus.com, a Pirate fan asked who’d they be looking at at #2 and Kevin Whelan’s name came up. That tells me there isn’t much there. Rule 5 was really watered down with that last CBA.
“Doesn’t Jackson’s ceiling = Granderson?”
in Austin Jackson’s girlfriend’s dreams it does. (and i’m a action jackson fan)
Granderson had a couple years where he looked like a machine. 290 average. 22 tiples. 30 HR’s. I don’t see this level of potential in Austin Jackson.
at this point, Austin Jackson resembles Roberto Kelley more then Curtis Granderson. A defense player first, who may develop a major league bat and then again may not. For the record, i don’t want to give up Austin Jackson in any deal unless we have a future CF’er in place. In this case, Granderson would be that centerfielder.
“Doesn’t Jackson’s ceiling = Granderson?”
—————————————————–
in Austin Jackson’s girlfriend’s dreams it does. (and i’m a action jackson fan)
Granderson had a couple years where he looked like a machine. 290 average. 22 tiples. 30 HR’s. I don’t see this level of potential in Austin Jackson.
at this point, Austin Jackson resembles Roberto Kelley more then Curtis Granderson. A defense player first, who may develop a major league bat and then again may not. For the record, i don’t want to give up Austin Jackson in any deal unless we have a future CF’er in place. In this case, Granderson would be that centerfielder.
crawdaddy
December 8th, 2009 at 8:55 am
We hope Austin Jackson is as good as Granderson. I’ll do a similar deal if I was Cashman with tweak here and there.
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the tweak here is to yank kennedy & the tweak there is to yank ajax
way way to much to give up
we lose a ton of cost controlled players to increase payroll when ajax alone might be our cf answer
“So if the Yanks get Granderson, are they backing away from Damon all together or do they plan to platoon Damon and Granderson in LF?”
Some scuttlebut that the pursuit of Granderson is, in part, to create some leverage for the Yankees in their dealings with Damon.
“Pirates pick 2nd. In a chat I read on Baseballprospectus.com, a Pirate fan asked who’d they be looking at at #2 and Kevin Whelan’s name came up. That tells me there isn’t much there. Rule 5 was really watered down with that last CBA”
——————————————
well that sucks. Was hoping this Rule 5 may have a Santana, Josh Hamilton, type of player. At least one
Was there an official offer made to Andy yet? Just curious as to how much it was for.
Wait, wait, wait…
Not that I particularly want Curtis Granderson but people would actually be upset if we traded away Phil Coke or Michael Dunn?
crawdaddy
December 8th, 2009 at 8:59 am
“This deal sucks for us because we are giving away too much. Remove Jackson and I’d do it.”
You’re not getting Granderson without Jackson. I think Cashman is going to make the deal one way or another.
———————–
i might do it with ajax & kennedy plus a throw in
SI’s Heyman says that the Yankees said no to the deal.They wanted Kennedy,Dunn,Coke,Jackson.Cashman would lose his job if he were that stupid!
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....aft-20911/
The above link talks about players Yanks might target in Rule 5 draft.
This is not a trade that makes sense for the yankees. Your trading one of your few blue chip pieces for a guy who is 30 with declining #’s and is potentially a platoon hitter.
Hold onto or a-jax. The only two guys I deal him for is potentially Halladay or Carl Crawford
“SI’s Heyman says that the Yankees said no to the deal.They wanted Kennedy,Dunn,Coke,Jackson.Cashman would lose his job if he were that stupid!”
——————————————-
Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy, and 1 of Dunn/Coke is completely fair.
To me, that’s a really lousy trade… giving up 4 players to get one. I think we’d be much better off just to keep Damon, and keep those prospects growing. Probably Kennedy and Jackson would make their way to the bigs this year anyway, and Coke is already there.
NOT a good trade!! WAIT, let me say that a different way, “IT’s a LOUSY TRADE!!”
I am going to have to disagree 100% with your analysis Chad. Arizona is the clear loser in that proposed trade. Max Scherzer is likely to be the best player going forward and they would be getting Ian Kennedy (4-5 starter at best) and Edwin Jackson who is headed for a big fall next season. Look at his peripherals, his performance in the first half was a mirage.
Dude Kennedy, Jackson, Dunn, Coke is a freaking steal for Curtis Granderson and 2 prospects. A STEAL
crawdaddy
every player is a prospect at one time
don’t take this the wrong way but pujols was one also
i talk to my scouts & see what ajax is & what he could be
i trade him but not with kennedy,coke & dunn
kennedy,ajax
& ???? maybe
they get ajax wich i believe is the centerpiece & a number one drafted pitcher or first rounder in kennedy??
we can sign damon or wait & keep all our prospects
i can see trading our prospects for pitching
could easily just be a leak job by the Yankees to get Damon a little worried…smoke and mirrors!
Throw in Edwin Jackson and Justin Upton and now we have something to build on. As it stands its silly
IF the proposed Arizona, Detroit, NYY trade does have Daniel Schlereth coming back to NY along with Granderson I would probably do it.
Schlereth is going to be a hard throwing LH starting pitcher, which trumps anything that Kennedy might be. For the short term he can easily replace Coke in the pen. I still don’t like Granderson’s splits but in regard to Austin Jackson – well for every Jay Buhner there are two Ruben Rivera’s and Ricky Ledee’s.
Really the only high quality prospect the Yankees are giving up is Jackson. Kennedy is redundant in this organization at this time. Dunn walks far too many people at this stage, and Coke is what Coke is – which isn’t bad, but like I said, in the short term Shlereth would be an apt replacement for him in the pen.
I can’t see Arizona though giving up both Scherzer and Schlereth.
on a separate note – I have another suggestion for LF.
Switch Hitter. Career .300 hitter with a .340 OBP – no power at all but tremendous speed. Can play both CF and LF. Has been on winning teams. Has 2 years and $18 mil left on his contract and plays for a team that wants to move him to save payroll. Probably wouldn’t cost too much in terms of prospects because he’s currently the 4th outfielder on the team.
I’m thinking Gardner, Coke, and maybe a guy like Corban Joseph or Carmen Angelini.
The guy in question: Juan Pierre
“Some scuttlebut that the pursuit of Granderson is, in part, to create some leverage for the Yankees in their dealings with Damon.”
Makes sense. I think we’ll get the deal done with Damon as long as he lets go of this pipe dream of a 4 year deal.
“The guy in question: Juan Pierre”
I saw him when he played for the Cubs. Pass.
Juan Pierre is a horrible horrible player. One of the most overrated in the game.
Chip, I agree that if sclereth was one of the guys them his ceiling is higher than coke or probably Kennedy as well (plus they would talk about him all the time on espn cause of his dad)..if you’re getting him and granderson then that’s sounds a lot better
juan Pierre, no thanks
I am not giving up on Doc to the Yanks – there’s no reason to. Therefore, AJax has to stay. I don’t care one bit about Dunn and Coke…..Kennedy is probably future trade bait, but I would save him for another deal.
Juan Pierre
Juan Pierre
Juan Pierre
Juan Pierre
Juan Pierre
Juan Pierre
Fair enough to all those who say no to Pierre
Just read the blog about who the Yankees might take with the first pick in the Rule V draft – Can’t say I know anything about Tosoni – the OF they speculate will be the guy, but if he’s as good a prospect as they say I could see this being a steal for the Yankees, giving up Bruney for an everyday OF who can play all three spots and hit for power with speed.
I’m taking away Chip’s make believe GM card.
Juan Pierre
Are you people crazy? Curtis Granderson and two mid-level prospects for Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy, Coke and Dunn is a great deal for the Yankees.
Just bring Snickelfritz up and say no to the trade.
Now its being reported that the Yankees balked at the price of this trade. I tend to agree that its too much from the Yankees side for a CF who has talent but big questions as well.
Heyman is tweeting that the Granderson deal is dead. Arizona wouldn’t give up Schlereth and Scherzer in the deal – that makes sense to me. It would be like asking the Yankees for Joba and Hughes.
Of course, just because a deal is dead at 10 doesn’t mean it won’t be alive and well by 11.
Ray, I have been saying that for weeks – I detest the idea of a competition. Also, Phil should be working on his pitches, not worrying about “winning” ST (I guess the same can be said for Joba, too). Phil will never be a starter if he’s relegated to the pen…at least, not with the Yankees. I agree, they may as well trade him.
Betsy, keep the faith. Cashman knows what a two headed monster the rotation would be with CC and Halladay. If there’s any way it can happen then cash will get it done. I don’t think he will part with Hughes or montero but the Yankees can still make a strong offer without those two.
Are you people crazy? Curtis Granderson and two mid-level prospects for Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy, Coke and Dunn is a great deal for the Yankees.
-
too much.
I’d trade directly with Detroit, and would offer Austin Jackson, McAllister, and Coke for Granderson. We get a premier CF/LF, while they get a young, agile, CF replacement, a near-MLB ready pitcher, and a proven MLB lefty-reliever. All affordable.
It doesn’t matter if that deal is dead – there is nothing to stop the Yankees and Tigers from making a deal on their own.
I still say hold onto AJax for now…..
Blake, I’m saying that I can’t agree with Craw that Doc is definitely not coming. Once the Yankees decided to bid for him, they knew this was going to be a long, drawn out affair. Patience is required. We have no idea what the Jays will or will not accept…..
No way am I giving up Jackson and McAllister for Granderson…..In fact, I’m not inclined to make any deal for Granderson at this point.
That would have been an extreme overpay for the Granderson of the last two seasons.
And at this point I stop pursuing Halladay until the options for Toronto become 2 mid-level prospects. boston doesn’t have the assets to do the deal, as they need them to fill positional problems. Phillies can’t afford the extension when they have the same situation with Lee. Angels don’t train in Florida, if that really matters at all. And the Mets are cheap.
Default, Yankees, which allows them to trade mid-level prospects. No Joba, no Hughs, no Kennedy, no Montero, no Melancon (they don’t need a reliever). Pick any 2 other names and the deal is done.
I think people devalue coke a little. He was pretty darn good at times last year and should only get better.
I would do the deal if it was a-jax,kennedy and coke
You don’t want you’re 2 lefty relievers go so I would stick to Dunn
No love for Snickelfritz. What a shame. The guy plays his heart out.
Ray -
Here’s my logic on Pierre – not that it really matters:
1. He’s a switch hitter
2. He doesn’t strike out
3. He gets on base
4. He can run a ton (which Girardi wants to do even more)
5. He plays the kind of small ball that Girardi wants
6. His salary (9 mil/year for 2 years) fits in exactly with what the Yankees wanted to pay Damon
7. He can play the field very well
Again, not that it matters – but figured I would throw his name out there.
“Are you people crazy? Curtis Granderson and two mid-level prospects for Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy, Coke and Dunn is a great deal for the Yankees”
——————————————
Patrick: don’t bother trying to convince them, it is in vain. The Bill Jame’s deciples do not deem Curtis Granderson as a valuable player.
Good morning from the Tampa VA Hospital (Bay Pines).
According to Heyman (so you can take it for what it’s worth), the deal was:
‘Zona gets: Edwin Jackson, Ian Kennedy
Detroit gets: Max Scherzer, Phil Coke, Mike Dunn, Austin Jackson and Daniel Schlereth plus one minor leaguer from ‘Zona.
Yankees get: Curtis Granderson.
If that’s the deal, that would explain why the Yanks told them to shove it.
the jays are not going to trade Roy to the Yankees or red sox for mid level prospects. If they are going to do thay it’ll be to an NL team or the angels. The Yankees or sox will have to pay more than other teams would.
They need to save AJack/IPK for any Halladay deal.
I agree Blake.
Coke was a nice suprise last season. He’s still young and he’s now battled tested. ( I know he struggled at the end of last season and into the playoffs ). But he’ll learn.
I like having Coke and Marte as our lefties.
We lost Bruney and if we lose Coke. our bullpen takes a little hit.
“Are you people crazy? Curtis Granderson and two mid-level prospects for Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy, Coke and Dunn is a great deal for the Yankees”
——————————————
Patrick: don’t bother trying to convince them, it is in vai The Bill Jame’s deciples do not deem Curtis Granderson as a valuable player.
GB7 – what are you doing at the hospital??
Wow the yanks get hosed in that deal, move Schlereth over to the Yankee column then maybe its closer to fair
From Heyman:
“Anthopoulos is doing a nice job keeping a lid on Halladay trade talks. He is the anti-Towers.”
Nothing on Towers so far this week. I can take him or leave him. Not sure he adds as much as many believe. Didn’t draft particularly well and though famous for identifying solid pitching, he was the guy who Rule 5′d Joakim Soria. Nothing wrong with another set of eyes, but I don’t see him having a significant impact here or anywhere else.
my bad for the re-post
Reggie said Ajax was the best one in spring training last year. Either hold on to him or trade him for Doc with others of course. Cashman has a lot of trade chips, he should use it wisely which he will I hope.
Patrick: don’t bother trying to convince them, it is in vai The Bill Jame’s deciples do not deem Curtis Granderson as a valuable player.
___
I guess it’s a lot easier to post that rather make a fact-based argument.
Actually Heyman said the Yanks would be getting 2 prospects from Arizona as well.
Even if they were 2 mid-level prospects it’s a great deal for the Yanks.
Patrick: don’t bother trying to convince them, it is in vai The Bill Jame’s deciples do not deem Curtis Granderson as a valuable player.
I hate Bill James – the reason I’m down on Granderson is that I’m not entirely sure where he fits in the lineup. He strikes out too much to bat leadoff or 2nd. You can bat him 5th I suppose.
In addition he isn’t just bad against left handed pitching, he’s awful. He struggles to hit .200 against southpaws which means that you either platoon him or live with a hole in your lineup anytime you face a left handed pitcher.
“Patrick: don’t bother trying to convince them, it is in vain. The Bill Jame’s deciples do not deem Curtis Granderson as a valuable player.”
Funny you should say that. Your boy Patrick is a Bill James sabermetric disciple.
As I said earlier however, if you believe that Granderson will rebound it’s a good gamble. If you don’t believe he’ll rebound and he can’t hit lefthanded pitching then it’s a bad trade.
The Yankees should have rejected the deal but don’t sleep on Granderson. You take away a player (Jackson) or swap some in the package and it is not bad trade. Granderson is a big player. Playoff experience, young, big power, speed, decent defense. He’s got all around skills. He strikes out too much but he’s an all-star player.
Vinny-b
“Granderson had a couple years where he looked like a machine. 290 average. 22 tiples. 30 HR’s. I don’t see this level of potential in Austin Jackson.”
Actually he has produced those stats once and they were not on the same year.
As for potential at age 22 Jackson’s stats in were:
67 runs 4 HRs 65 RBI .300 Avg .354 OBP
Granderson at age 22
71 Runs 11 Hrs 55 RBI .286 Avg .365 OBP
Jackson did this in AAA Granderson was still in Advanced A.
Losing Brian Bruney isn’t taking a hit to the bullpen.
Some of you have to stop overvaluing Yankee prospects.
They all aren’t going to be Derek Jeter.
This team is known for acquiring known commodities. Usually, on their own terms because Cashman is patient enough to wait it out.
Last year, the same people who think Mike Dunn and/or Austin Jackson are the next stars on the team complained for giving up Jeff Marquez for Nick Swisher.
The Yankees know their own system better than anybody.
They aren’t going to give guys away. Nor, are they going to keep every prospect and turn the team into the Pirates.
if this deal for granderson happens them I’m thinking the yanks move away from Damon and more toward matsui. Matsui would be more likely to take a short term deal and would fill the need of a #5 hitter. Although as most of you know I’m for signing Holliday
The Yanks pulled out of the deal cause they weren’t getting enough for what they were giving up. Something else less complicated could still be worked out. We’ll see.
Chip,
I hear your arguments about Juan Pierre but truth be told he’s just not a good player.
I wouldn’t want the Yankees paying him 9 million a year, that’s for sure.
Rishi
December 8th, 2009 at 10:27 am
GB7 – what are you doing at the hospital??
————————————————————
Either the doctors want to practice for their Christmas ham and turkey carving or the nurses love my style so much that they wanted me back for an encore.
I’m more inclined to prefer the second one.
Yankees officials left three-way trade talks that would have netted them Curtis Granderson saying they were unsure that negotiations will ever heat up again. But quite frankly I think that is just downplaying the matter. It seems pretty clear that they want Granderson and, generally, what the Yankees want they ultimately find a way to get.
Foxsports.com had the initial report and I heard the players the report had leaving the Yankees and going to either Detroit or Arizona – Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy, Michael Dunn and Phil Coke – were basically right. The Yanks would receive back Granderson and perhaps one or two prospects.
I think this is a package with which the Yankees should be able to part. Jackson is the toughest player to move from the group, since the Yankees have kept him out of packages for years. Washington wanted him for Alfonso Soriano at the 2006 July trade deadline and Seattle wanted him for Jarrod Washburn at this past deadline. The Yanks think he is going to be a really strong player, but scouts from other teams wonder about his high strikeouts and limited power. You lose him as the center fielder of the future, but you get Granderson in his prime for three years at a reasonable $25.75 million.
Kennedy is a back-end starter. To me Coke is this generation’s Jim Leyritz: A talented guy who might not max out because he has trouble with his conditioning and knowing his place in a clubhouse. Dunn, a convert from position player to reliever, is a wild card. He has a big arm with a chance to turn into a late-inning factor. But, right now, he does not have much idea where the ball is going.
3. Granderson has his flaws, as well. He strikes out a bunch and is terrible against lefty pitching. But it is possible to improve at those things. However, even if he doesn’t, he is still an above-average producer who could possibly give more as a Yankee.
He busted out with a career-high 30 homers last year. But he hit just 10 in a tough home power park in Detroit. At Yankee Stadium, I think it is possible that Granderson’s power could climb toward 40 homers.
Plus, I think the Yankees really want to be better on defense in the outfield, and I do not think it is inconceivable that they trade for Granderson and play him in left and sign free agent Mike Cameron for center. That would be adding 250-plus strikeouts to the team. But they would provide excellent defense plus both are known as tremendous clubhouse assets.
http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/hardba…JhgkakZGugG9bI
**I still want to hold onto AJax for a possible Doc deal
“Some of you have to stop overvaluing Yankee prospects.
They all aren’t going to be Derek Jeter.”
Probably none of them are, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t valuable.
lol.
so much for that Rule 5 outfielder RiverAveBlues had speculated. He is a draft and follow and not eligible for selection
Making a comparison on guys minor league stats, and trying to predict major league success, is ridiculous.
These players aren’t computers. All of them advance at different paces.
Taking stats, and not taking anything else in consideration (ballparks, playing time, developmental time) and trying to draw conclusions, defies logic.
If Austin Jackson has as successful career as Curtis Granderson has had as of right now, he will be a very successful ML player.
The problem is, NOBODY can predict that so, its ridiculous to even try.
Coke isn’t a prospect anymore. He has shown he can get big league hitters out, he just needs to get more consistent.
Da Saint, why should the Yankees stop pursuing Doc? They haven’t even spoken to Anthopolous seriously yet. Cash and Hal knew what they were getting into when they decided to try and get Doc – it’s going to be a drawn out affair requring some serious negotiations. It’s not going to be just ” this is what we want and if you don’t want to give it up, don’t bother calling back”. If the Jays pull that, they won’t trade Doc at all.
Da Saint, why should the Yankees stop pursuing Doc? They haven’t even spoken to Anthopolous seriously yet. Cash and Hal knew what they were getting into when they decided to try and get Doc – it’s going to be a drawn out affair requring some serious negotiations. It’s not going to be just ” this is what we want and if you don’t want to give it up, don’t bother calling back”. If the Jays pull that, they won’t trade Doc at all.
Blake, that’s up to you as to whether you believe Anthopolous or not. You think the Jays are going to take less from other teams than from the Yanks or Sox?
“Making a comparison on guys minor league stats, and trying to predict major league success, is ridiculous.”
If you actually think that, then you need to read up on MLEs.
Valuable how? Some are valuable to use in trades to acquire known commodities.
Some are valuable to fill out the roster.
Others are valuable as viable, future frontline players.
They all have value at different levels.
It gets foolish for some to believe ALL of them are future stars. They aren’t.
If the Yankees can pump up some of them publicly, to make teams THINK they are, and acquire assets they want, so be it.
Just don’t fall into the trap they are ALL future stars. They aren’t.
(from the previous thread)
Just a drive by to say hope everyone is doing well and still revelling in our beautiful number 27. I know I am! It has helped to keep me warm during the off season.
A friend just emailed me the info on the potential Granderson deal. I am sure this has been discussed but I thought I would add my two cents. I would absolutely love to have Granderson. Good riddance to Kennedy; Phil Coke unfortunately developed a little bit of an attitude there and I think that was his undoing; I feel a little bad for Edwin Jackson only because he played his heart out for the Yankees – just a little bit of a sympathy thing there. Austin Jackson is the only one in there that hurts.
Well anyway, I thought I would check in with that blockbuster opinion! Granderson, to me, would be an awesome addition.
That said, for someone like me who typically lets the Yankee do their thing and is good with whatever they do in the end, this off season has been particularly fulfilling! Nothing like letting it all unfold after a world series win. Hope the holiday season is good to all of you hotstovers!
*******************
Also, I am willing to lay odds on the fact that Roy Halladay will NOT be under the Yankee Christmas tree.
JMO
I wouldn’t say I’m a Bill James disciple. My views on baseball are more in line with a guy like Keith Law.
The bottom line is this, there is a very very slight chance that Austin Jackson will ever be as good as Curtis Granderson and even if he is it will probably be years in the future. Ian Kennedy is nothing more than a 4 or 5 starter. Mike Dunn and Phil Coke are decent pitchers but really nothing special.
Giving up those 4 guys for 2 prospects plus Curtis Granderson would be a steal for the Yanks.
“The problem is, NOBODY can predict that so, its ridiculous to even try.”
Waldman and Sterling would be proud!
I agree that granderson is awful against lefites…and I’m not 100% sold one way or the other on whether the Yanks should go after him. But, they only played 54 games against lefty starters last year. You can rest him against the real difficult lefties and let him struggle through vs the rest. It wouldnt be the end of the world.
Yanks were only getting back Granderson in the 3 way yesterday, that’s why they backed out. We’ll see what happens today.
“You can rest him against the real difficult lefties and let him struggle through vs the rest. It wouldnt be the end of the world.”
What about in the postseason?
Patrick the Prospect Hugger
December 8th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Actually Heyman said the Yanks would be getting 2 prospects from Arizona as well.
Even if they were 2 mid-level prospects it’s a great deal for the Yanks.
————————————————————
Then he’s either changed his mind in the last hour or, as usual, he doesn’t have a clue as to what he’s talking about.
“8:29am: SI’s Jon Heyman tweets that this one “looks very unlikely.” In his scenario Heyman had Daniel Schlereth, Scherzer, and more going to Detroit. He adds that the Yankees are saying no to the deal, which would’ve cost them the four prospects named below. Similarly, Morosi now finds the chances of this one to be “not good” because the Yankees balked at the price.”
Blake, you could say that about most of the players in the game. Coke is just not that good – that said, I doubt he was the reason the deal fell apart.
Cash doesn’t have to make a deal now. I’d rather he not make a deal rather than make a bad deal, even if it’s for a player he likes.
According to Fox Sports, a major league source confirmed the Rays have contacted Toronto officials about Halladay. The source suggested that Tampa Bay might be willing to offer speedy outfielder B.J. Upton and pitching prospect Wade Davis in exchange for Toronto’s 32-year old star.
_____________
Rays have trade pieces too.
____________
BEAUTIFUL #27 ! Yes it is !
The Rays rumor is false.
The DBacks and Tigers would have to come up with more for the Yanks if they want to make that deal.
The chances Austin Jackson becomes Curtis Granderson is slim because they are different types of players.
I don’t need a computer program to figure that out. You can do that by seeing each guy play.
Granderson is more of a slasher type of hitter who has developed a bit of a power stroke. He has holes in his swing Kevin Long can fix. If he can close Arod’s holes, he can certainly close Granderson’s.
Jackson is more of a free swinger/athlete who is still developing as a baseball player.
Granderson has better baseball instincts than Jackson. As a matter of fact, they are much better, particularly on the basepaths.
Jackson has a better arm, but covers much less ground in the OF, than Granderson.
If the Yankees felt Austin Jackson was going to be the next Curtis Granderson, they wouldn’t have offered him in the trade.
If you are going to use stats to compare players, you have to use them properly. Comparing 22 year olds at different stages of development incorrectly is not the proper way to use stats or project future player success.
Betsy, yes I believe the jays would trade halladay within the division but I also believe that it will require better prospects for them to do it. At least it would for me, I would want him out of the division if at all possible if I’m them. They are going to say they’ll trade him to anyone because the more percieved bidders, the higher the price
“The chances Austin Jackson becomes Curtis Granderson is slim because they are different types of players”
Right, but they aren’t being traded for even up.
Here’s the thing with Austin Jackson that’s worrisome:
He strikes out a ton (123 vs. 40 walks) and still managed to hit .300 – which means he had a very high batting average on balls in play – a stat that could be as much about luck as anything else. It’s entirely possible that playing in a league where there is better fielding he will hit the same .240 that Granderson did, but without the power (4 HR last season)
Now that said, it’s also possible he learns the strikezone a little more and the power comes and he becomes Torri Hunter. That’s the risk you take when you deal a prospect.
I will say this, with the Yankees quietly bringing in lots of high ceiling young OF’s (the Dominican player a week ago, Heathcott in the draft, Edgar Gonzalez last year, possibly Tosoni in the Rule V draft) and the possibility that Montero winds up in LF, it’s possible that the Yankees are trying to find someone who could supplant Jackson if they decide to move him.
blake
So you think that Anthopoulos wants to make as bad a deal as Bill Smith did with Santana?
Betsy, I didn’t say that Coke was the next mariano Rivera. I said he was a little undervalued by people on this board. He’s got good stuff and has been given a role that he could become very good at.
Paul O’Neill had the same rap (can’t hit lefties) when he came to NY. With better instruction, he changed his approach and figured it out.
The Tigers fired their hitting coach in the off-season in large part because guys weren’t getting better.
Granderson will hit better under guys like Long or Rudy Jaramillo (who is now with the Cubs) because they will change his approach to lefties.
He certainly has the skill. Just needs to change his approach.
Patrick,
I agree with you re: Granderson trade.
I heard the Yankees pulled back because they wanted to get more than just Granderson in return. That’s why they engaged the D’backs in the talks.
Granderson’s trendlines concern me:
OPS+, UZR/150
2007: 135, 12.9
2008: 123, -9.4
2009: 100, 1.6
As do his disparate splits:
2007-09
v. L: .202/.261/.309/.570
v. R: .301/.378/.562/.940
SJ, we don’t know who offered what, that’s the thing. Maybe it was the Tigers /Diamondbacks who proposed Austin Jackson. Before the rumor of the 3 way deal was announced, there were tweets that the Yankees balked at giving up Jackson for Granderson. SJ, do you think there is a possibility that Cash is holding Jackson out of any deal because Toronto likes him and he could go in a Halladay deal? In any case, clearly the Yankees like Ajax.
Too many rumors flying to know what’s accurate and what’s not. Some sources say the D-Backs pulled out, some say the Yankees……we just don’t know anything.
Blake, we’ll see…..this isn’t going to be resolved anytime soon.
GreenBeret7
December 8th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Rishi
December 8th, 2009 at 10:27 am
GB7 – what are you doing at the hospital??
————————————————————
Either the doctors want to practice for their Christmas ham and turkey carving or the nurses love my style so much that they wanted me back for an encore.
I’m more inclined to prefer the second one.
============================
Long’s had pretty good luck getting the Yankee lefties to hang in there against lefty pitching.
As for the other parts going in that potential Granderson deal:
I have no love for Ian Kennedy – as I said, I think with all the right handed starters in the organization he’s redundant. He profiles as a back of the rotation starter and the Yankees have a lot of guys who profile that way.
Phil Coke gives up a ton of HR to left handed hitters; if the Yankees trust Damaso Marte they can move Coke. They also have a couple of LH relief guys coming along too.
Mike Dunn walks too many guys to be counted on as a relief pitcher.
I detailed my qualms with Jackson above.
Overall – if the prospects the Yankees are getting back are projectable and if they have decided that they have enough young talent in the OF to replace Jackson I would take the deal. One thing I would do though is immediately move Jesus Montero to LF and see if he can play the position.
Rich, I think he isn’t going to accept that kind of deal from the Yankees which is what some of you think is going to happen.
A point you all seem to miss about the Santana deal and the lee deal is that both were shipped to the NL for those players. Neither would have done it in their division.
“Paul O’Neill had the same rap (can’t hit lefties) when he came to NY. With better instruction, he changed his approach and figured it out.”
__
There is as much reason to believe that O’Neill’s ability to improve his R/L splits make him an outlier.
Montero isn’t going to play left field in Yankee Stadium. He doesn’t have the speed. He might fill in in right field on occassion. He could even play left field in boston if there was a very fast center fielder.
“A point you all seem to miss about the Santana deal and the lee deal is that both were shipped to the NL for those players. Neither would have done it in their division.”
Do we know that, blake. Maybe the deal that they got for Lee was their best offer?
Maybe the RS and the Yankees were never really interested in Santana?
Phil
Long may be able to do that, but it’s still a projection that should lower the price paid.
I doubt the Yankees would get any kind of decent prospect back from the Tigers (do they even have a farm system?) – Cash knows what he’s doing.
Yanks weren’t getting back any prospects in the deal they pulled out of yesterday.
“I said he was a little undervalued by people on this board. He’s got good stuff and has been given a role that he could become very good at.”
Yeah, but it’s a role a lot of guys can be good at. He’s not bad, but he’s far from exceptional.
Rich,
I agree. I think the Yanks agree, too.
Rich, you find me a deal like this that has happened within the division for midlevel prospects. The vast majority have sent the star to the other league.
Schilling to red sox
Santana to mets
Lee to phillies
Sabathia to brewers
Beckett to red sox
Etc etc. All were sent to the opposite league
It’s great to have some baseball to think about!
What have we learned so far:
1) The Yankees are really interested in Granderson and it my affect the Damon negotiations.
2) Andy will be back with a higher base (and last year’s base was so low because the Yankees were at/near their cap when they signed Andy). so…
3) The Yankees really do have a ‘soft’ cap.
What is interesting to me that no one is talking about:
1) I love the Bruney trade. First pick in the rule 5 draft might be worth something. Does anybody think we will make the pick (and then have to keep that person on the roster all year) or trade the pick?
2) What are the Sox up to? Are they going to lay back till next year when Lowell, Ortiz, Beckett come off the books or try to do something big this year?
Rishi
December 8th, 2009 at 10:52 am
GreenBeret7
December 8th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Rishi
December 8th, 2009 at 10:27 am
GB7 – what are you doing at the hospital??
————————————————————
Either the doctors want to practice for their Christmas ham and turkey carving or the nurses love my style so much that they wanted me back for an encore.
I’m more inclined to prefer the second one.
============================
well I hope all goes well…
————————————————————
Thanks for the thoughts, Rishi. Not much worse can happen to me, unless I just nasty away.
All I know is, I bet they don’t ever invite me back for a visit.
Betsy,
I think Cashman knows exactly who he can get and what he has to give up to get him. He has been talking regularly with the Tigers and Jays since the season ended.
Some teams see Austin Jackson differently than others. Some see him as a future star. Others see him as a good, but not great, major league player. I know some teams that don’t think he’s that good.
Every team sees and evaluates players differently. For example, I know of a lot teams that never saw Lars Anderson as a future star. Yet, last off-season, all we heard was how the “future first baseman of the Red Sox”, was going to be in AA in 2009″. Now, the same people who touted the kid say he isn’t up to the hype.
What we don’t know is how the Tigers and Jays view Austin Jackson.
I had heard a few weeks ago the Tigers really like Jackson and the Jays are less enamored with him.
If that’s true, then holding Jackson out of any Granderson deal makes little sense since the Jays aren’t seeing him as a key piece to a Halladay trade.
“8:29am: SI’s Jon Heyman tweets that this one “looks very unlikely.” In his scenario Heyman had Daniel Schlereth, Scherzer, and more going to Detroit. He adds that the Yankees are saying no to the deal, which would’ve cost them the four prospects named below. Similarly, Morosi now finds the chances of this one to be “not good” because the Yankees balked at the price.”
Where does it say the Yanks would only be getting Granderson? All the rumors I heard were that the Yanks would get prospects back from Arizona.
OT, anyone know what happened to yp-forums.net? Has the forum been taken down?
Maybe the RS and the Yankees were never really interested in Santana?
I think more than getting Johan they were concerned with making sure that if they didn’t get Johan that he didn’t go cheaply to the other team.
Neither team really cared that the Mets got him – for all his positives Johan has a few flaws that make him a scary investment (as we’ve seen here in NY) but I just think they wanted to keep the other guy honest. If the Yankees were going to get him Boston was going to stick around long enough to make sure it cost them Hughes and if the Sox were going to get him the Yankees wanted to make sure Lester ended up in Minny.
GreenBeret7
December 8th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Good morning from the Tampa VA Hospital (Bay Pines).
********************
Get well soon GB!!
Sorry I’m late with this-I was in a meeting and am just reading through all of the posts.
SJ,
know anything about Chad Tracy? could he be the next Josh Hamilton pick?
GB,
hope you feel better dude.
SJ44
I heard the Yankees pulled back because they wanted more than just Granderson in return. That’s why they engaged the D’backs in the talks.
why would Cash do that – as you said the straight up deal sounds like a steal.
blake
The Yankees made a trade with the Jays for David Cone.
Patrick the Prospect Hugger
December 8th, 2009 at 11:00 am
“8:29am: SI’s Jon Heyman tweets that this one “looks very unlikely.” In his scenario Heyman had Daniel Schlereth, Scherzer, and more going to Detroit. He adds that the Yankees are saying no to the deal, which would’ve cost them the four prospects named below. Similarly, Morosi now finds the chances of this one to be “not good” because the Yankees balked at the price.”
Where does it say the Yanks would only be getting Granderson? All the rumors I heard were that the Yanks would get prospects back from Arizona.
————————————————————
Is it difficult to read this part?
“In his scenario Heyman had Daniel Schlereth, Scherzer, and
more going to Detroit.”
There’s nothing left other than Granderson. Not a chance of that deal getting past Cashman laughing out loud.
“If you are going to use stats to compare players, you have to use them properly.” Gee SJ thanks for the lesson.
My point with the minor league stats is that based on their production at that point in their careers you can not say that Jackson has no chance to be as good as Granderson.
As far as instincts go the Yankees did pretty well with Bernie williams in center (No.I’m not comaparing Jackson to Williams) and he had no baseball instincts.
@robtom. Forum will be back in a day or two. Domain had to be renewed.
“I doubt the Yankees would get any kind of decent prospect back from the Tigers (do they even have a farm system?)”
As rated by K. Goldstein on BP
Five-Star Prospects
1. Jacob Turner, RHP
2. Casey Crosby, LHP
Four-Star Prospects
3. Scott Sizemore, 2B
Three-Star Prospects
4. Daniel Fields, SS
5. Andy Oliver, LHP
6. Alex Avila, C
7. Cody Satterwhite, RHP
8. Wilkin Ramirez, OF
9. Ryan Strieby, 1B
10. Gustavo Nunez, SS
Two-Star Prospects
11. Casper Wells, OF
Erin
December 8th, 2009 at 11:03 am
GreenBeret7
December 8th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Good morning from the Tampa VA Hospital (Bay Pines).
********************
Get well soon GB!!
Sorry I’m late with this-I was in a meeting and am just reading through all of the posts.
————————————————————
Thank you for the thoughts Erin. It’s just a thing. Now, if they tell me that I’m going to miss opening day, I’m gonna be upset.
The Yankees made a trade with the Jays for David Cone.
Roger Clemens too.
I would love to see the Yanks somehow turn Ajax into Granderson.
However, I’d like Granderson only if the Yanks got another outfielder which would allow them to sit Granderson against most lefties.
Mike Cameron is a natural fit with Granderson. He destroys lefties. Granderson destroys righties. And Cameron is OK against lefties.
So, against righties you have Granderson, Cameron and Swisher. Against lefties you have Melky, Cameron and Swisher.
Outstanding OF defense, and together Granderson and Cameron will probably cost less than $15MM. That’s clearly worth giving up AJax and some other spare parts.
Thanks, Chip
Ed – slacking in class now
December 8th, 2009 at 11:05 am
SJ,
know anything about Chad Tracy? could he be the next Josh Hamilton pick?
————————————————————
Only if he has a worse drug problem.
Thanks for the kind thoughts, Ed.
Good stuff WYH, I totally agree.
Granderson and 1 or 2 prospects for Kennedy, Jackson, Dunn, Coke is a great deal.
If the yanks acquire Granderson, where would that leave Damon?
GB7 – best wishes. Take care of yourself, and get home for the holidays.
@Dev, thanks for the update.
Rich -
No problem.
But in the end it doesn’t really matter – different GMs were running the show back then and they had different mandates and such from ownership.
I think the bottom line is that Anthopolus needs to decide what’s in the best interests of his team: Dealing Halladay for less than a sure win or keeping him for the season and taking your chance with the draft picks instead.
mlbCoz RT @KenDavidoff: Andy Pettitte’s agent Randy Hendricks: “If we can work out a deal, he’ll play. Is talking only to #Yankees.”
10 minutes ago from TweetDeck
I like Jordan Brown in the Rule 5 draft. I posted his stats on my website.
If the yanks acquire Granderson, where would that leave Damon?
Looking for a new team.
GB7,
Count me in on those wishing you good health. Hope all goes well for you.
“If the yanks acquire Granderson, where would that leave Damon?”
Very much in the cold….at least so far as playing for the Yankees is concerned.
Rishi
December 8th, 2009 at 11:14 am
mlbCoz RT @KenDavidoff: Andy Pettitte’s agent Randy Hendricks: “If we can work out a deal, he’ll play. Is talking only to #Yankees.”
10 minutes ago from TweetDeck
*************************
Thanks Rishi! Best post of the day!!
GB, I hope all goes well today.
SJ, I thought I read from Heyman that the Jays like Jackson…eh, there’s so much info and misinformation flying around that who knows what to believe?
I completely agree that it’s all about how the Jays/Tigers feel about players, not what we think they ought to feel or what we feel ourselves. Who’s to say the Jays don’t like other players in our system? Who’s to say they don’t love Melancon or Romine (just using two examples – I could have picked any players out)? Maybe we think to ourselves that the Jays would never do such and such….but how do we know that? Conversely, we could love players that they don’t like….so that even if we think they are stupid for not doing a deal, it doesn’t mean they don’t have a reasoning behind it.
Did you read Sherman’s piece on Cash/Anthopolous yesterday? It doesn’t necessarily mean a trade will be done, but I find it interesting that they have a good working relationship. What does that mean when a foundation is being laid? Do GMs just try to first get together and schmooze a bit? Do they talk about generalities (in this case, what the Jays are trying to do, the kinds of players they are looking for, etc…)? There has to be a lot more to a trade than just one GM calling up another and proposing a deal…..Sherman pointed out that oftentimes, GMs trade with certain GMs more than others and some GMs never trade with each other. Is that based on how well they get along personally?
Granderson has incredible charisma. He could easily be a future broadcaster. The NYC press will absolutely love him.
Thank god that trade is dead.
The Yankees are getting raked over the coals. I read that they’d receive a couple prospects from Arizona or something like that on MLBTR, but still.
I won’t overvalue our prospects, but if we’re giving up Jackson, Coke, IPK, and Dunn, we better be getting more than Granderson in return.
Why trade Jackson for a guy like Granderson when we can wait a year, re-sign Damon for 2 years and theoretically have Jackson in CF in 2011 full time. Even if he doesn’t pan out to be as good as Granderson, he is still much cheaper, apparently has a lot of upside, and very well could be better (optimistic me) in 5 years.
Ed, Chad Tracy is a free agent.
Good Morning GB.
I just wanted to join the others in wishing you good health!
Tom;
I mean this Chad Tracy
http://www.baseball-reference......acy-002cha
Chip,
“The Yankees made a trade with the Jays for David Cone.
Roger Clemens too.”
I’ve written this several times over the past 3 weeks on this blog. We have had some considerably GREAT luck with the pitchers we’ve acquired from Toronto. Coney and Rocket helped bring rings.
I know people might not be too fond of the Rocket these days…I certainly have my issues with him, but I still believe he was THAT good. Just wouldn’t have been that good for as long w/o the PEDs.
Thanks for the kind thoughts, Joe, Fran and Tom. I should find out what the deal is by this afternoon. They got me stuck in this room…thank God for the internet. I hate that I can’t eat anything. The worst part, besides the waiting is that the nurses are older than my grandmother. Brrrrr.
GB, have been totally away from the forum (don’t everyone cheer at once!) and just decided to check in today about the Granderson thing. I remember you talking in the past about some health issues and I would like to add my good wishes and prayers for you that whatever is going on, everything goes well and you are in the pink very soon. Rational Yankee fans are sometimes hard to find!!! Your common sense and stability are needed around these parts.
Ed, Chad Tracy is a free agent.
Different Chad Tracy – there’s the free agent and then the one I think Ed was talking about who is Jim Tracy’s son. He’s a C/1b/OF who can hit a little. Think of a really poor man’s Eric Hinske.
The more I read the more I would like them to use the Rule V pick on Rene Tonis
ray (sox fan)
December 8th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Good Morning GB.
I just wanted to join the others in wishing you good health!
————————————————————
Thanks, Ray. Hope you and the (sox fan) family are doing well.
Please don’t send “Yaz” down here. I don’t like poodle puddles.
“The more I read the more I would like them to use the Rule V pick on Rene Tonis”
too bad, he isn’t eligible for rule 5.
GB7 – Take care of yourself!
Granderson has incredible charisma. He could easily be a future broadcaster. The NYC press will absolutely love him.
______________
glib is granderson
BloggingBombers Granderson to Yankees may not be a dead issue, but it won’t be for the 4-player package (Ajax, Coke, Dunn, Kennedy) in that 3-way deal.
8 minutes ago from web
Thank you for your kind thoughts, Trish. It’s much appreciated.
“The more I read the more I would like them to use the Rule V pick on Rene Tonis”
He’s not available.
Both of those trades were a decade ago. I’m not at my computer so I can’t look up the specifics of the trades. I never said that a deal couldn’t happen , I’m for one and hope one does happen. I just don’t see it happening for mid level prospects. That would make no sense for toronto and would worsen their situation by making the Yankees better
Thanks for the thoughts, Bronx. Very kind of you.
You guys are going to love this.
Pete abe said
He does not expect the Sox to trade Westmoreland, Kelly, or Buchholz.
However, the Red Sox can make some significant moves…
Teams like Casey Kotchman; Josh Reddick has value; Manny Delcarmen has a big arm
Casey Krotchman is a loser, and was gotten by the Sox for nothing.
Reddick is the equivalent of a Publix grocery bagger, with less talent.
Manny was left off the postseason roster, and makes Kyle Farnsworth look consistent.
This, from Pete Abe, the guy who insulted bloggers here that suggested using IPK to trade for somebody. He shot down any and most of our prospects as trade bait.
But Josh Reddick. Josh Reddick. I repeat again, Josh Reddick.
By the way, hey Ray.
Hope the docs find what they need to do to fix you up GreenBeret7. I guess they picked those nurses special for you so you don’t get overly … excited. Either that or they were concerned that Tiger would pay them a visit.
GB7– Gotta look out for the good guys.
Oh, o.k. Ed and Chip.
I’d be a little leery about taking a 23 year old who hasn’t played above AA and expect him to remain on the 25 man roster all year.
His stats are nice though. Then again, why not just call up Juan Miranda…
GB, get out of there and get better soon!
Buster Olney on ESPN tv: Tigers offering Granderson and Edwin Jackson. He didn’t say for whom in return.
This, from Pete Abe, the guy who insulted bloggers here that suggested using IPK to trade for somebody. He shot down any and most of our prospects as trade bait
____________________
according to nooo maaas . org he was the ‘interested reader’
“Thanks, Ray. Hope you and the (sox fan) family are doing well.
Please don’t send “Yaz” down here. I don’t like poodle puddles.”
__________________________________________________________
Hey GB. I didn’t send Yaz down there. I figured I would cheer you up and send you a Schilling t-shirt!
SI_JonHeyman hearing 3-way with granderson to #yanks, e. jax to dbacks, scherzer plus to #tigers is back with a chance.
4 minutes ago from mobile web
The Yanks weren’t getting anything other than Granderson in the deal they walked away from. Seems like Detroit still wants AJack.
Looks liket the Granderson deal is back on. Lets see how this shakes out
“The more I read the more I would like them to use the Rule V pick on Rene Tonis”
He’s not available.
———-
Assuming this is correct, there are other players to be had. The bottom line is, anything the yanks get is better than if they just let Bruney walk. Hopefully they can find someone that sticks all year. It’s an enormous crap shoot. But it was a gret trade for Cash. When do the yanks get the 1st pick in any draft? The rule 5 isnt idea, but we’ll take what we can get.
Best wishes GB7
MLBTR
10:33am: Heyman tweets that this deal is “back with a chance.” Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News agrees, noting that the Tigers “may be caving” on the price for Granderson. Wouldn’t be the Winter Meetings without three-team trade scenarios and the constant back-and-forth.
“The more I read the more I would like them to use the Rule V pick on Rene Tonis”
He’s not available.
———————
My bad – Well actually River Ave’s bad – they made a mistake listing him.
I know Cashman likes pitching (who doesn’t) but I don’t see him using a Rule V pick on a pitcher simply because it’s really tough to get them work unless you commit to using him regularly – so with that, yeah, I guess Tracy could be the pick.
doit
according to nooo maaas . org he was the ‘interested reader’
what’s the background story on that?
If the deal was such a steal how come Cashman didn’t see it as such a steal?
I would think that he more than anyone on this blog would recognize a steal when he sees one (Nick Swisher anybody?)
That’s why it’s funny to see people talk about how much of a steal it would be for the Yankees in yesterday’s trade scenario.
10:33am: Heyman tweets that this deal is “back with a chance.” Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News agrees, noting that the Tigers “may be caving” on the price for Granderson. Wouldn’t be the Winter Meetings without three-team trade scenarios and the constant back-and-forth.
Dombrowski is said to be willing to take either Melky or Gardner instead of Jackson.
BloggingBombers Yankees would still give up Austin Jackson for Granderson, but one of the other 3 pitchers – most likely Mike Dunn – would be downgraded.
less than 10 seconds ago from web
God bless you, GB7. I’ll be on troll patrol till you get back. Seriously, God bless you.
You know, if I’m taking on a 3 year/$26 million contract, I shouldn’t have to give you too much in top talent. Frankly, and yes Phil and Rich, I know it won’t happen, but Jackson + a mid-level prospect should do it.
In 2006, when we got Abreu (and the $23 million remaining on his contract) and Cory Lidle, we gave up C. J Henry (2005 #1 pick), and 27-year-old Matt Smith, as well as Jesus Sanchez and Carlos Monasterios. Where are they now?
lauren, just the fact that that url has to be spelled like that means that it is a topic non grata on this website, but its out there, look it up so you see what type of person he was
Best wishes GB7
good job Rishi ! your on it brother !
Dombrowski is said to be willing to take either Melky or Gardner instead of Jackson.
—–
Now THAT would be a steal!!! But I don’t believe it.
Jesus Sanchez is now a hot pitching prospect for the Phillies. Matt Smith got hurt and is out of baseball. Carlos has also had injuries.
Mike RI
December 8th, 2009 at 11:47 am
good job Rishi ! your on it brother !
==========
sister?
have a lull in the work so I can follow along
“10:39am: Bob Dutton of the Kansas City Star tweets that the Royals will “look at” Jose Molina as a possible starting option.”
uh…wow, the Royals are desperate for starting catchers.
SI_JonHeyman if #yanks get granderson, they may still try for damon. #nicelineup
===========
needed??
I’d let Gardner go in a heartbeat for Granderson instead of Jackson. I’m okay with the other 3, but who am I to say Yes or No.
Thanks Phil. As Cashman likes to say, prospects are suspect.
Sorry for the late pile on, but best wishes you GB7. Your posts are fun to read…
LOL sorry Rishi. sister ! . lol sorry
“10:33am: Heyman tweets that this deal is “back with a chance.” Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News agrees, noting that the Tigers “may be caving” on the price for Granderson. He says the Yanks would likely downgrade one of the pitchers, most likely Dunn. Wouldn’t be the Winter Meetings without three-team trade scenarios and the constant back-and-forth.”
hopefully Ajax is out of the deal.
uh…wow, the Royals are desperate for starting catchers.
Yeah – they’re also looking at Kendall.
melky or Gardner. I just can’t see that unless the tigers have finally admitted that this is a salary dump.
CountryClub December 8th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Dombrowski is said to be willing to take either Melky or Gardner instead of Jackson.
—–
Now THAT would be a steal!!! But I don’t believe it.
********************
OMG is that is true! Cash get it done!
You sign Damon to be your DH for 100 games a year. the other 40 he can play left and then he’ll probably need to sit for 20 or so games.
Mike RI
December 8th, 2009 at 11:53 am
LOL sorry Rishi. sister ! . lol sorry
========
np
I think it’s assumed – and it’s a “guy’s name”
If Detroit is willing to downgrade on Jackson, then I offer Melky. May as well shed some salary on our part also.
Chip December 8th, 2009 at 11:53 am
uh…wow, the Royals are desperate for starting catchers.
Yeah – they’re also looking at Kendall.
*****
Reallly wow. I guess cathers are like lefty’s if you can catch you have a job forever.
Get well soon GB!!! I don’t know what’s wrong as I’ve been gone for a week or so, but I know you are missed when you aren’t here!
Ray
I find it hard to believe that a team like the Yankees will be able to make a Rule 5 pick stick on their team all year (you have to return the pick if he doesn’t remain on your 25 man roster). But that said, the pick would have value to other teams (like the ‘Nats!).
Maybe it will be packaged in a trade or is there someone out there Cash has his eye on?
if that rumor is true then melky is a better player with a much higher ceiling than Gardner. Gardner is what his is already
I’d rather upgrade the package and include Edwin Jackson and leave Arizona out of it altogether. If that can be done than Austin Jackson/Ian Kennedy at the top of the package would be a legit price for a 29 year old CF and 26 year old starter.
—-
Same here. But maybe Arizona is high on Scherzer and would require Joba or Hughes included.
For Granderson and Edwin Jackson, they’d maybe want Jackson + Hughes + Dunn + Coke
SI_JonHeyman if #yanks get granderson, they may still try for damon. #nicelineup
I think that’s Heyman doing some wishful thinking for his buddy Boras.
If the Yankees get Granderson – 2 things will happen:
1. I will jump on the Curtis bandwagon and take back all the nasty things I said about his platoon splits because I don’t want to jinx any Yankees
2. The Yankees will pretty much be done in the position player market. They certainly won’t be giving out a 2 year $20 mil contract to Johnny Damon.
I’m still not crazy about the idea of putting Melky in LF though…we’ll have to see I suppose.
The Melky bashing : there he goes again !
Maybe it will be packaged in a trade or is there someone out there Cash has his eye on?
Well the Yankees traded Brian Bruney for the pick so I guess there’s someone Cash has his eye on.
Melky can certainly play LF better than Johnny Damon.
Melky can certainly play RF better than Nick Swisher.
Melky can play a pretty decent CF too, though there are better options.
I disagree, Chip. I think the yanks would still sign Damon…but only at their price. There would be no need to cave to Boras in any way.
the only ‘possible’ way hughes is gone is for halladay. even then, yankees would rather send joba. no way they let hughes go for granderson.
HOT stove heating up!
Melky can play LF and RF…but he doesnt hit like a LFer or RFer. that being said, I’d be fine with him in LF if Granderson was hitting 30 hr’s in CF.
Chip if the deal goes through I still think they go after another bat
Thanks to all of you guys. I appreciate the kind thoughts.
Sweeney on WFAN shortly…..
I hope we get Curtis Granderson. He’s a wonderful player and with him we wouldn’t need swisher or even damon. But by giving up Jackson, its just way to much in my opinion. Get it done cashman but include swisher in the deal.
If the Yankees acquire Granderson they’d still sign Damon?
hahaha. sure.
I hope we get Curtis Granderson. He’s a wonderful player and with him we wouldn’t need swisher or even damon. But by giving up Jackson, its just way to much in my opinion. Get it done cashman but include swisher in the deal.
-
huh ??
“2. The Yankees will pretty much be done in the position player market. They certainly won’t be giving out a 2 year $20 mil contract to Johnny Damon.”
I don’t believe it. I’m not buying the “get the payroll under $200MM” line. They’ll need at least one more hitter, plus a pitcher in addition to Andy.
Ray (sox fan). You’re supposed to be cheering me up…not threatening me with schilling t-shirts.
Anything going on with Rich Harden. I recently had a thought about him being a possibility.
It could be Granderson and Cust replacing Damon and Matsui. That would leave enough money to add Pettitte, Chapman, R. Soriano, Harden and DeRosa.
I disagree, Chip. I think the yanks would still sign Damon…but only at their price. There would be no need to cave to Boras in any way.
Well that’s true – they would probably turn to Boras and say 1 year 9 mil take it or leave it. And frankly I’m fine with that if he wants to take it and come on as the DH. I would actually prefer that because it would allow the Yankees to bat Damon 2nd and Granderson 5th
I think though that if he doesn’t then the Yankees can go a couple of different ways – they can sign Cameron to play LF, play Melky in RF and go with Swisher at DH (an outstanding defensive OF with Granderson in CF) or they could go with Melky in LF, Swisher in RF, Miranda at DH. Or sign a catcher (Benji Molina?) and put Posada at DH.
I think it would make more sense for them to resign Matsui if they trade for Granderson.
Or, they could resign Damon and make him the part time DH, part time outfielder.
I’d prefer Matsui in the DH role however.
Why wouldn’t they move Granderson to LF if they got him? That way you’re just replacing Damon’s production with Granderson’s and you keep Melky and Gardner as your CF’s?
The deal is hopefully dead, dead, dead or just a figment of someone’s imagination. Seriously, WAY too much prospect talent for Granderson. I think Granderson is an excellent player, but lefties are tough on him and that overall batting average in 2009 scares me. But regardless, four top minor leaguers is too steep a price. Now it’s true that not all four guys may prove to be major league success stories, but they all have real talent. My initial thought was it’s not a bad deal if you pull A-Jax from the mix, but then you’re still giving away three pitchers with genuine upsides. Tough call.
GB7–Hope all goes well. I’m glad a little thing like a hospital doesn’t dull your general managerial abilities.
Gardber is Granderson Very Lite! He also is even weaker as a LF. Melky is the one to kee of the two along with AJ. Melky can play all 3 OF positions well. Gardy can’t. I wonder if Swish is in a trade talk somewhere too. I don’t like the idea of Swish in LF.
Wherever A-Jax plays in 2010, he needs better plate discipline to cut down on his high amount of strikeouts.
according to WFAN’s Evan Dunn has been dropped from the list
Catching backup will most likely be internal.
Granderson and/or Cameron.
Damon or Matsui
Andy and an arm
Done
The Yankees will certainly still be in on Damon. Why would getting Granderson (a CF) have any effect on the Yankees LF/DH situation, unless you think aquiring Granderson limits the Yankees financially…in which case you would be wrong. If the Yankees get Granderson it gives them all the time and leverage in the world. They can stand pat with Melky in left, highly unlikely but they can posture this way, and let either Damon or Matsui crawl back to them, because the longer they stay on the market the more their price and options lower. I think Cash gets Granderson without giving up Jackson, a package of Melky/Gardner, Romine, Ian Kennedy and maybe one filler and then looks to package AJax (Cash has shown early on that he’s willing to trade him) and Joba, along with a few others for Halladay. Cashman is the true Ninja Assassin.
What about a deal Granderson for A-jax,Kennedy and Dunn..would you do it?
I would…
Heyman updates the state of the trade:
# latest 3-way looks something like this: yanks get granderson; dbacks e-jax, i.kennedy; tigers scherzer, schlereth, a-jax, coke. 2 minutes ago from web