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Cashman: “The next step isn’t ready to happen now”

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 10, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Right about now, Brian Cashman is boarding a plane out of Indianapolis, literally putting his active four days of the Winter Meetings behind him. This was the storm before the calm.

“I am definitely not in a position right now where I feel like I’m ready to do anything,” he said. “The next step isn’t ready to happen now, based on my conversations. There shouldn’t be another shoe to drop immediately.”

Cashman has options, and he has little need for urgency. He has to act, obviously, but the past four days have surely eased any need for desperation. Yesterday, Cashman acknowledged having talked to John Lackey’s agent. Today, he acknowledged talking about Ben Sheets. He’s met with the agents for Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui. He’s been engaged with multiple trade talks. As soon as something makes sense, he’ll be ready to move.

“Patience can benefit you, (or) it might not,” Cashman said. “You can wait something out and see if it falls in your lap, but by doing that you risk losing something that you want. It’s a little riskier for us to play that game. If we really want something and it fits in our criteria at some point, waiting it out to see if it gets cheaper, I’m not sure that’s the way we go about it.”

• Contrary to some reports, the Yankees were never going to take Zach Kroenke with the top Rule 5 pick. “That was not a consideration,” Cashman said.

• Cashman met with reliever Rafael Soriano’s agent — Soriano ultimately accepted arbitration and was quickly traded to Tampa Bay — but the Yankees were never serious players for the right-hander.

• Would the Yankees enter the season with Juan Miranda as their primary designated hitter? I don’t know, but I honestly believe the Yankees are not going to be overly aggressive in trying to upgrade the position unless it means a DH who can also play the field. “I’m not trying to oversell anybody,” Cashman said. “Juan Miranda will do a nice job against right-handers as our DH, if that’s the way we have to go. Is that the right way to go? We’ll check the market. Like with backup catcher. I have Cervelli. Is that the right thing to do? We’ll see.”

• Cashman said he fully expected to lose both Kroenke and Kanekoa Texeira in today’s Rule 5. “There are at least two other guys I thought were going,” he said. Cashman didn’t say who those other two were. My guess: Kevin Whelan and Colin Curtis.

• By the way, Cashman confirmed that Kroenke can elect free agency if he’s not kept by the Diamondbacks. That means there’s a solid chance the left-hander is gone no matter what. “Kroenke’s probably toast,” Cashman said.

• Not sure how I forgot to include this quote in the original post, but anyway… Cashman was talking about his reluctance to trade away young players, and he once again said that losing three young players in the Granderson trade does not change his willingness to make another trade if the situation is right. This line is sure to scare the (heck) out of a lot of people, but Cashman said, “For the right player, I’ll move anybody.”

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407 Responses to “Cashman: “The next step isn’t ready to happen now””

  1. CR9 December 10th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    Listening to Peter Gammons on ESPN right now.

    Thankfully, I do not have MLBNetwork and will not have see that cryptkeeper’s face much longer and hear him stutter over his words any longer.

  2. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 10th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    Whoever signs Bay is going to regret it big time in a few years and how on earth do the Mets think that Bay can handle the OF in Citifield?

  3. Dark Dante December 10th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    Cashman needs to apply for a job with the CIA with the way he speaks. Seriously the man can make a simple statement become convoluted.

  4. m December 10th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    toast? Is he using that now that Sabean is using “that shipped has sailed”?

  5. CR9 December 10th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    And listening to one Bostonian, John Buccigross, talk to another Bostonian, Gammons, was fun. It was a lovefest. Youc could see the gleam in Bucci’s eyes as he waxed poetic to Gammons.

  6. vinny-b December 10th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    “I think your analysis of the Sox is spot on. Even Theo admitted that this is a “bridge” year. As Nick from SF said, that’s a true bridge to nowhere””
    —————————————–

    the Chappaqua Bridge analogy was gold too

  7. SJ44 December 10th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    Its interesting what’s happening right now…..

    The Yankees are in the great position of being able to wait out the market.

    The market, knowing the Yankees are in “wait and see mode”, has trouble getting going for one reason…..

    Nobody knows when the Yankees will strike.

    For example….

    Say you are engaged in coversations with Mike Cameron or Johnny Damon. Both guys, at least to date, have nothing more than one year offers on the table.

    How far do you go, knowing the Yankees are lurking?

    It affects those negotiations. Teams don’t want to over-commit dollars because, unlike the Yankees, they can’t eat their mistakes.

    Its a tough bind for teams.

    From the player perspective, the multi-year offers just aren’t there.

    If you are Johnny Damon, and your game fits PERFECTLY for the Yankees, how do you turn down 1 year at 9-10 million for a 2 year offer (if one materializes) elsewhere? It makes no sense.

    Its why Cash is holding all the cards right now.

  8. blake December 10th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    CR9. You need to get the mlb network. Even of you have to occasionally see gammons the channel is really good.

  9. tampayank December 10th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    can you ask Cashman if Swisher has the possibility of getting traded? I heard that yesterday..that would be sad, he was the personality of the 2009 championship team :(

  10. CD December 10th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    I can’t believe the Rangers are gonna take broken down Mike lowell of theo’s hands. Yes, the sox will pay 75% of his salary, but still.

  11. blake December 10th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    Sj, do you think Sheets is worth a one year deal at around 8M? I think if he’s 100% he is for sure.

  12. Mike RI December 10th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    Cashman needs to apply for a job with the CIA with the way he speaks. Seriously the man can make a simple statement become convoluted.

    - Seriously .. he never tips his hand

  13. CD December 10th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    SJ, yesterday you said Damon won’t take a one year offer from anyone. Now you say that’s all he has on the table. What if that’s all he gets – will he retire?

  14. L to the 2nd December 10th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    Let’s go yanks good point re: Bay.

    That’s an awfully big OF for an average defensive LF’er – he also won’t get those “friendly” Monstah HRs either.

    About Montero’s catching abilities – I’m sure Tony Pena (or even GI Joe) could teach him a thing or two before we already switch positions on the guy.

    Must be great to be Cash right now – holding all the cards.

  15. SJ44 December 10th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    If Sheets is healthy, he’s the best pitcher on the market.

    He had flexor tendon surgery….not Tommy John Surgery. The same surgery Andy Pettitte had 4 years ago and Andy is fine.

    He sat out all of last season and did not miss a day of rehab in Texas.

    If his shoulder is sound (big question mark from his last set of X-Rays), he’s a better pitcher than John Lackey and anybody else currently on the market.

    If you are the Yankees, and can get him for 8 million+ incentives, you plug in a #2 starter for the #4 spot in your rotation.

    You are only talking about a 1 year deal. Very little risk.

    Good business if he is healthy and you can pull it off.

  16. vinny-b December 10th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    “Cashman needs to apply for a job with the CIA with the way he speaks. Seriously the man can make a simple statement become convoluted”
    ——————————-

    normally am a apologist for Cashman. Although i admit the above quote reads like it was stated in code.

  17. David December 10th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    Damon, Sheets and done.

  18. vinny-b December 10th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    “Whoever signs Bay is going to regret it big time in a few years and how on earth do the Mets think that Bay can handle the OF in Citifield?”
    —————————-

    the Mets don’t think. That’s the problem. And haven’t from the time Omar the Latin God took over

  19. charlestonchew December 10th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    December 10th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
    To those who question Montero based on size as a catcher, look at Mauer. 6?5? and 225 pounds. A bit thinner than Montero, but not much.
    Montero looks like Pudge, but enlarged and a little thinner.
    He’s a beast and if he can catch we’re in for a wonderful treat. He just has to be average to below average to be worth it at catcher. Nobody is praising Victor Martinez’s amazing defense… but he’s good enough offensively to account for that. Montero is hopefully a similar case. Maybe not.
    We’ll see. I wouldn’t trade him for anyone. No matter who it is, I keep Montero.

  20. Chip December 10th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    If I have the opportunity to trade LF/CF Melky plus pieces (minor-league pieces) to KC for LF DeJesus, I drive him to the airport myself.

    DaSaint I agree – supposedly the Royals are very hot after Gardner, if I can move him for DeJesus forget the airport, I’ll drive Brett to Kansas City.

  21. L to the 2nd December 10th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    Cash’s to do list:

    Damon (2 years, $18m).

    Matsui (1 year, $8m).

    Sheets (1 year, $8m).

    Done.

  22. SJ44 December 10th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    He won’t retire. He will take the best offer, wherever it comes from.

    Here’s the problem Damon has…..

    Its a market where few teams have money to spend.

    Those that have money are spending it differently than in the past.

    Johnny is also behind guys like Holliday, Bay and perhaps Cameron in the pecking order of available OF’s. That means, he has to wait his turn for his payday and it may not be prudent for him to wait.

    Boras doesn’t have the Red Sox for example to up the ante with the Yankees for Damon. No competition there.

    The Red Sox have issues of their own. Lots of dead money, a split in the organization as to which LF (Bay or Holliday) to pursue and whether or not to get into the Halladay sweepstakes.

    They also lost 2 key people (Hoyer and McLeod) in their front office (Theo devotees) to San Diego.

    That makes the internal wars more intense. One reason why Kevin Towers turned down a job with them.

    Where does Scott Boras go to put the pressure on the Yankees to up their offer to Damon? He has no where to go.

    If Johnny wants to go to the White Sox, the Yankees will say bye, bye.

    That’s why I think at some point, Johnny will realize, perhaps sooner than Scott, that NY is the best place for him and do the deal.

    If he doesn’t, he runs the risk of the 10 million that was on the table in December not being there in January from anybody.

    He already lost out on 2/20 because he waited too long.

    I’d hate to see him lose out on 1/10 for the same reason.

  23. vblade December 10th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    Damon will realize that there’s nowhere for him to go except back to New York, especially if money is one of his main concerns. Cashman can sit on his hands and wait. It’s a good situation for the Yankees and Cash has played his hand very well in the Winter Meetings.

  24. murphydog December 10th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    Chance the Gardener (from “Being There” http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078841/quotes ): “There will be growth in the spring.”

    Cash The General Manager (From the Yankeees): “The next step isn’t ready to happen now.”

    Hmmmm…..

  25. tex's friend December 10th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    forget dejesus for a trade. get bannister.

  26. David December 10th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    Cannot afford Damon and Matsui.

  27. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 10th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Can someone explain the David Dejesus fascination?

  28. Chip December 10th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    DeJesus, Sheets, one more relief pitcher, call it a winter.

    I think Brian is going to wait, see who gets non-tendered, who is left without a chair like Bobby Abreu and Olrando Hudson last year and then make his next moves.

    Some guys who might not get arbitration offers:
    Casey Kotchman
    Jonny Gomes
    Dioneer Navarro (personally I think this is a guy Cashman is secretly hoping doesn’t get offered arbitration so he can bring him back – it’s possible he’s right too since Tampa picked up Kelly Shoppach who is also up for arbitration)
    Huston Street
    Garret Atkins
    Gerald Laird
    Jorge Cantu
    Joel Zumaya
    Dan Uggla (another potential target)
    Delmon Young (maybe)
    Jack Cust
    Jeremy Accardo
    Brandon League
    Josh Willingham

  29. Noreaster December 10th, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    Cashman said, “You don’t want to win the winter but lose the postseason”…but clearly we ‘won’ the winter meetings…

  30. blake December 10th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    Sj, I 100% agree with what you said about sheets. If he is healthy I think he’s better than lackey. He is really fun to watch, he works quick and throws strikes. I’d love for them to get him

  31. SJ44 December 10th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    Dioner Navarro? LOL

    Cash has no fascination with Dioner Navarro.

    He’s about the get DFA’ed by the Rays. They have catchers throughout the organization with bigger upsides, and the guy is partying his way out of MLB.

    Cash has no interest in bringing back Navarro to the Yankees.

    Especially since Cervelli is a much better defensive catcher than Navarro right now.

  32. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    charlestonchew

    Montero looks like Pudge, but enlarged and a little thinner.

    Yeah, I tend to confuse Pudge and Montero too except for the 7 inches in height difference.
    Victor Martinez is a lousy defensive catcher. There is a reason that Cleveland had shifted him to 1B. Boston is stretching to play him significantly at catcher as he is unlikely to be long-term solution. More likely, he will be their 1B, Youk moves to 3B, and the quest for a new Red Sox catcher continues as this will be Varitek’s last year in Boston (the capstone on a 4 year slide).

  33. Erin December 10th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    murphydog
    December 10th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
    Chance the Gardener (from “Being There” http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078841/quotes ): “There will be growth in the spring.”

    Cash The General Manager (From the Yankeees): “The next step isn’t ready to happen now.”

    Hmmmm…..

    ***********************
    LMAO :D

  34. Laura - Bring back Matsui in 2010! December 10th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    This is why the other teams hate us. We are always in the best position to get the best players and make the best deals. But you know what they say — life’s a b___!

  35. Laura - Bring back Matsui in 2010! December 10th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    “Can someone explain the David Dejesus fascination?”

    I’d love to – except that I don’t understand it either.

  36. Tom in NJ December 10th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    “Can someone explain the David Dejesus fascination?”

    I knew him in college. Sort of. I tried out as a walk on back in the mid-to-late-late 90s and had catch with him once. So there’s that…

  37. Erin December 10th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench)
    December 10th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
    Can someone explain the David Dejesus fascination?

    *********************
    Wish I could help you out. ;)

  38. vin December 10th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    I don’t see the infatuation with Brian Bannister. He had a good rookie year with the Royals in ’07, but he’s very hittable, and doesn’t strike guys out. It’s not like he has an extremely low walk rate.

    I’d rather see Joba and Hughes get starts over him – especially considering he would need to be traded for, and he has more service time so he’ll be more expensive.

    Comparing Bannister, Joba, and Hughes’s peripheral MLB stats:
    Bannister – Joba – Hughes
    h/9: 9.44 – 8.50 – 8.18
    hr/9: 1.05 – 0.86 – 0.89
    bb/9: 2.90 – 3.87 – 3.36
    k/9: 5.12 – 9.11 – 8.27
    whip: 1.37 – 1.37 – 1.28

  39. L to the 2nd December 10th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    I think the RS are trying to position themselves financially to go all out on Mauer next year.

    That is, unless he re-ups with MIN first.

    Uncle E, I don’t get the DeJesus love either.

  40. charlestonchew December 10th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    Joe Vogel,

    When I said he looks like Pudge, I stated “enlarged”

    He’s just a bigger Pudge, with the same body proportions.

    Thanks buddy.

  41. vin December 10th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    “Can someone explain the David Dejesus fascination?”

    Apparently he’s from the tri-state area – which means he’d be PERFECT for the New York Yankees. DUH… ;)

  42. mick December 10th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    murphydog December 10th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    Chance the Gardener (from “Being There” http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078841/quotes ): “There will be growth in the spring.”

    Cash The General Manager (From the Yankeees): “The next step isn’t ready to happen now.”

    Hmmmm…..
    ————————————–
    murph

    few will remember or even know this great book and movie…peter sellers was great

  43. Lauren December 10th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    SJ44, johnny had a 2/20 mill deal on the table — from whom?

  44. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    The infatuation with Brian Bannister is that he is into sabermetrics. Very interesting and smart guy.

    David Dejesus was always touted as a high ceiling guy and the next great player for KC but he never really got there.

  45. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes

    As I said earlier, I believe Jeter will end up in LF in 2 seasons. Thus, Montero is left with 1B (Tex), DH (A-Rod thru age 42–Thanks Hank), LF (Jeter), C (Probability to great of defensive liability), RF (probably), or another team.

  46. Betsy -high on pie December 10th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    So SJ, what do you think is going on now with Doc? The Angels have their offer in. Is it just a matter of the Jays accepting or not? Do they take it to other interested teams to see if they will match or do better? How does it work with these potential blockbusters? Is Cash in contact with Anthopolous? Does he wait for Anthopolous to get back to him with either an offer he’s going to accept (giving Cash a chance to match it – as I think Cash asked him to do) or that he’s simply received and hasn’t decided? Does Cash call Anthopolous to see if he’s willing to negotiate off is initial demand?

  47. SJ44 December 10th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    If they are, its a failed strategy since Mauer will re-sign with the Twins. They are already negotiating an extension with a good shot of it getting done prior to the start of the season.

    Their problem is simple. Too much dead money on the books (which limits what they can do) and they overrated their own prospects.

    Something BTW, Yankee fans, more than their front office, is guilty of doing.

  48. jpb1973 December 10th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    Cashman needs to apply for a job with the CIA with the way he speaks. Seriously the man can make a simple statement become convoluted.

    - Seriously .. he never tips his hand

    ——————————————————

    Cashman would make a great Federal Reserve Board Chairman.

  49. Betsy -high on pie December 10th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    Yep, I read an article about Towers where he was very hesitant about the Sox because of the Theo/Lucchino dynamic. I didn’t realize he’d already turned an offer down….Who’d have thunk it that the Yankees would be looked at as a stable organization and the Sox as something dysfunctional (especially if John Henry overrides his GM to get into the Halladay sweepstakes)?

  50. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 10th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    vin
    December 10th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
    “Can someone explain the David Dejesus fascination?”

    Apparently he’s from the tri-state area – which means he’d be PERFECT for the New York Yankees. DUH…

    OH! Trade for him then!
    Oh and trade for Vin Mazzaro too he’s from the town where my brother lives!

    Dejesus is an older, more expensive Melky that’s not a switch hitter.

  51. Chip December 10th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Cash has no interest in bringing back Navarro to the Yankees.

    I forgot – you are in constant contact with Cashman and know exactly what he’s thinking and players who don’t get tendered contracts have no value whatsoever. For the record, Tampa has about 10 players up for arbitration including both Shoppach and Navarro, BJ Upton, Matt Garza, JP Howell and Jason Bartlett – for a team on a budget, one of those guys has to be the odd man out.

    Cash has said that he thinks Cervelli could be the back-up to Jorge but has also said that he would still look for another backup because he wants to see what Cervelli could do with a full season of starting at AAA.

    It’s also possible that if the Yankees don’t sign someone to DH that they could bring in another catcher so that Posada could do the majority of the DHing.

    I think if he’s available at a low cost (maybe even minor league deal) then yes, I think the Yankees will have interest in a 25-year old switch hitting catcher.

  52. SJ44 December 10th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Betsy,

    Unless the Jays get a better offer, Halladay will start the season in Toronto. If the Angels offer was good enough, they would have done the deal.

    Not doing it tells you the deal fell short.

    GM’s always stay actively engaged. You don’t need to be in the same city to stay in toucghg.

    Everybody will stay in touch and see how it shakes out.

    Jeter isn’t going to LF in 2 years. Its funny, everybody wants to place him in the OF and you don’t just move a 37-38 year old guy to a big LF like Yankee Stadium and think its going to work.

    Especially since he has never played the OF in his life.

    He will stay at SS until he shows he can’t play it anymore.

    At that point, he will probably retire because the guy has shown no signs of not being able to play SS at this time.

    He is just coming off one of his best seasons.

  53. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    Theo is a good GM and the Sox are a well run team but I think we are seeing that no one is perfect.

    The Sox still have holes at 3B, DH and LF. They have less than ideal players at SS and catcher. Their minor league system is greatly diminished, most of the talent is years away from the majors.

    I still think the Red Sox will contend for the playoffs in 2010 and beyond but they aren’t the “model franchise” that everyone tried to convince us they were.

  54. SJ44 December 10th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Chip,

    I know more about what’s going on than you do.

    The Yankees have no interest in Navarro for the reasons I stated.

    They don’t need him.

    Cervelli can back up Posada and you have Montero and Romine knocking at the door in another year.

    Tampa got rid of him not because of money.

    They got rid of him because pitchers hated throwing to him and his off field issues became a problem.

    The Yankees aren’t looking to inherit those issues.

    Find another below average player for you to tell the Yankees to sign. It seems to be a daily thing with you.

  55. John in Ohio December 10th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Obviously, Damon is ahead of Matsui on the priority list, because he can still play the outfield (kinda), and can still run the bases (pretty well).

    But how long do they wait for Damon? And, is it a foregone conclusion that Matsui is not in the plans under any scenario?

  56. vin December 10th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    Good post up at RAB about Jamie Hoffmann.

    http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ann-21093/

  57. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    Chip,

    Right now if you give me a choice I’d pick Cervelli over Navarro as a back-up catcher. Navarro has a better stick but Cervelli is a much better fielder which is what you need in a back-up.

    Also, I highly doubt that Cashman is considering Navarro or Cervelli as starting catchers with Posada at DH. Do you really want to give 500 AB to a weak hitter like Navarro or Cervelli? That’s a really really bad idea.

    I’d rather take the minor hit in defense with Posada back there for 110-120 games and put someone else at DH who can actually hit.

  58. Ed H. December 10th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    It’s interesting tat before the meetings began, one of the biggest stories was that Kevin Towers was expected to choose a job offer during the meetings. That evidently didn’t happen. I wonder what went on there. Anybody know anything?

  59. Ed H. December 10th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    tat = that

  60. vinny-b December 10th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    “Can someone explain the David Dejesus fascination?”
    —————————————————–

    he went to Rutgers

  61. tex's friend December 10th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    Theo is a good GM and the Sox are a well run team but I think we are seeing that no one is perfect.

    ___

    yeah he is great. it’s great business to pay two salaries for players on other teams. (lowell and lugo). it takes a lot of skill to maneuver yourself into a position where you are the ones paying for other teams players.

  62. SJ44 December 10th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    Ed,

    Word is, he’s going to work for the Yankees. IIRC, Olney reported that today.

  63. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 10th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    Ben Sheets is not going to sign with the Yankees to be a 6th starter and if Hughes AND Joba are not in the starting rotation next year you may as well trade the one who is not because by the time they are able to handle a full season as a starter they will be making a lot of money in arbitration.

  64. vin December 10th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    “But how long do they wait for Damon? And, is it a foregone conclusion that Matsui is not in the plans under any scenario?”

    Word on the street is that Matsui is expected to return to the Bronx.
    http://twitter.com/KenDavidoff/statuses/6536914286

  65. SJ44 December 10th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    He wouldn’t be signing with the Yankees to be a 6th starter.

    He would sign with the Yankees to be the #4 starter, with Hughes the #5 and Chamberlain in the bulllpen.

    The Yankees wouldn’t have even met with his agent if it was for the 6th starters slot. Cashman wouldn’t waste Casey Close’s time with that.

  66. Mike RI December 10th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Ben Sheets is not going to sign with the Yankees to be a 6th starter and if Hughes AND Joba are not in the starting rotation next year you may as well trade the one who is not because by the time they are able to handle a full season as a starter they will be making a lot of money in arbitration.

    - Sheets will be a Yankee. Hughes will be a starter , and Joba will be in the Bullpen.

  67. Betsy -high on pie December 10th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    nyp_joelsherman

    Neither #Yankees nor Boras camp describe active negotiations on Damon, and so no quick resolution is ancitipated

  68. Chip December 10th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    Tampa got rid of him not because of money. They got rid of him because pitchers hated throwing to him and his off field issues became a problem.

    Well actually Tampa hasn’t gotten rid of him at all so let’s start there. And what off the field issues are you talking about?

    Right now if you give me a choice I’d pick Cervelli over Navarro as a back-up catcher.

    Patrick – I agree with you. I only bring it up because there were statements earlier in the winter by Cashman that he might want Cervelli to start in AAA. Maybe that’s posturing I don’t know, but if it is true he would need to bring in another catcher and I think he could do a low risk thing (minor league deal with an invitation to spring training) with a guy like Navarro and if it works out, great, if not, you stash Navarro in AAA and use Cervelli as the back up.

    Remember, last year the Yankees ended up needing both Cervelli and Kevin Cash to catch in the majors, so you can never have too much catching depth.

  69. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    “yeah he is great. it’s great business to pay two salaries for players on other teams. (lowell and lugo). it takes a lot of skill to maneuver yourself into a position where you are the ones paying for other teams players.”

    If you can’t acknowledge that Theo is a good GM you are way too big of a homer.

  70. vinny-b December 10th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    “Neither #Yankees nor Boras camp describe active negotiations on Damon, and so no quick resolution is ancitipated”
    ———————————————-

    then Damon might as well stay in Europe.

  71. 'My heart beats when they win, and it stops beating when they lose.' December 10th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    How can that be accurate about Matsui? That post makes it seem as if the Yankees are close to a deal, but if it will take until January, than that means they haven’t been able to come to an agreement. So which is it?

  72. Betsy -high on pie December 10th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    Either Joba in the pen or he gets traded…..I wonder what Sheets thinks about NY.

  73. blake December 10th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    Cashman has the ability to talk for an hour and not say anything. Its a very valuable skill when you are a public figure. Just ask jeter, its kept him out of trouble with the media for years.

    Who knows where jeter will end up. He’s got a couple more years in him at shortstop and them who knows..we can cross that bridge when we get there.

  74. Betsy -high on pie December 10th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    SJ, thanks for the insight.

  75. JohnC December 10th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    What abput Chapman? Think he will be a Yankee or Red Sox?

  76. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 10th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    It makes absolutely no sense to put Joba in the bullpen. Trading Joba>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Joba in the bullpen.

    If they are desperate for someone for the bullpen they would have traded for Soriano or will sign Gonzalez, but you do not put 24 year olds with his stuff in the bullpen. That is an absolute utter waste of resources. If they think Joba can not cut it as a starter then he will be traded.

    They also did not spend the last 2 years building Joba’s innings up to just completely waste all that time and effort and stick him in the bullpen. Both Joba and Hughes will either be starting pitchers next year whether it is for the Yankees or some other team.

  77. L to the 2nd December 10th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    If the Yanks sign Sheets, either Hughes or Joba (probably Joba) is ticketed for the pen.

    Anyway, I’ll revert to the old “you can never have enough pitching” adage before anyone goes crazy about a “6th” starter.

  78. Laura - Bring back Matsui in 2010! December 10th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    Peter Pascarelli is floating the rumor that the Yankees and the Braves are talking about a Derek Lowe for Melky Cabrera deal. ATL is supposed looking to move Lowe and is willing to eat some of his salary. That would be a first; someone supplementing a salary for us. Not sure how much truth there is to it, but I found it interesting.

  79. Wave Your Hat December 10th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Chip, the Yanks aren’t going to pay more than the minimum for a back-up to Jorge this year. That let’s out Navarro. You don’t need an in with Cashman’s office to figure that out.

  80. Chip December 10th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    If you can’t acknowledge that Theo is a good GM you are way too big of a homer.

    Agreed, though the way he acted when it became obvious that the organization was going to deal Hanley Ramirez was pretty weak. Taking his ball and going home…come on.

    Possibly the smartest thing Theo did was letting Damon, Millar, Mueller, Lowe, and Pedro go after the 04 World Series. It would have been easy to re-sign them all because of the success that team had, but he knew it was smarter to dump them a year early rather than a year too late.

  81. tex's friend December 10th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    “yeah he is great. it’s great business to pay two salaries for players on other teams. (lowell and lugo). it takes a lot of skill to maneuver yourself into a position where you are the ones paying for other teams players.”

    If you can’t acknowledge that Theo is a good GM you are way too big of a homer.

    ___

    What exactly has he done that i should accept that?

    I cannot think of anything we has done that someone else couldnt have?

    51m to talk to dice-k?
    paying for players not even on the team?
    losing tex to the yankees?

    he is just like others. i like my team (not a homer exactly), but i know that cashman has a style to his work that theo and others just dont have.

  82. vinny-b December 10th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    “Peter Pascarelli is floating the rumor that the Yankees and the Braves are talking about a Derek Lowe for Melky Cabrera deal. ATL is supposed looking to move Lowe and is willing to eat some of his salary”
    ——————————————-

    please no. I hate that _______

  83. blake December 10th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    I agree that if they sign sheets that joba should go to the pen. If that happens then you are basically closing the door on him as a starter. Wouldn’t it be better to trade him while he still has the value of a potential starter?

  84. Josh December 10th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    SJ44: “Find another below average player for you to tell the Yankees to sign. It seems to be a daily thing with you.”

    Best line of the day!

  85. tex's friend December 10th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    If the Yanks sign Sheets, either Hughes or Joba (probably Joba) is ticketed for the pen.

    Anyway, I’ll revert to the old “you can never have enough pitching” adage before anyone goes crazy about a “6th” starter

    __

    if that happens and all are healthy, look for joba to start and phil in the pen. the damage they would do to joba moving him back AGAIN, is not worth it. hughes spent most of the year there last year.

  86. Chip December 10th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    Chip, the Yanks aren’t going to pay more than the minimum for a back-up to Jorge this year. That let’s out Navarro. You don’t need an in with Cashman’s office to figure that out

    I agree that they won’t pay a ton of money to a back-up. I’m talking about giving Navarro a minor league deal and letting him and Cervelli compete for the back-up spot. The Yankees used 4 catchers last season and are losing both Molina and Cash, so at the very least they need bodies for depth.

  87. John in Ohio December 10th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    Here’s a dumb question:

    Why wouldn’t someone in Halladay’s position just come right out in the press and say “I’ll only accept a trade to the Yankees (or whomever), so trade me to them and get something in return, or keep me all year and get nothing after the season”?

    He would be protecting the interests of his new team, wouldn’t he?

  88. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    Chip,

    Maybe in the beginning of the offseason there were rumors about Cervelli in AAA (although i don’t remember that at all) but just yesterday Cash talked about Cervelli filling the backup role. He said there was a chance he could upgrade that spot but if we both agree that Cervelli > Navarro as a backup catcher then why even talk about it?

  89. L to the 2nd December 10th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    John:

    Mainly b/c he destroys what little leverage TOR has.

  90. Appletons Buffet December 10th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    SJ44 a.k.a. Joe

    You know your baseball… for the most part.

    You try too hard, though, to make it seem like you are in constant contact with the Yankees.

    You are not privy to the plans of Brian Cashman, no matter your vast knowledge of baseball and the Yankees.

  91. Wave Your Hat December 10th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Not buying the Lowe rumors. The Yanks have and had their chance to sign any number of free agent pitchers of the quality of Lowe and haven’t done so. They could have gotten Kevin Millwood from the Rangers.

    The Braves would have to eat an awful lot more of Lowe’s $15MM salary than I suspect they are willing to do before the Yanks do that deal.

  92. vinny-b December 10th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    “The Mariners are exploring an Adrian Gonzalez trade with the Padres, report Ken Rosenthal”
    ————————————–

    wouldn’t you love if Seattle pulled it off :)

  93. Wave Your Hat December 10th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    Chip-

    If Navarro is made available, some team will take him. He isn’t going to the minors, and he’ll be paid substantially more than the minimum.

  94. kd December 10th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    i’d like to see bay go to a team other than the red sox.

    then they have to tango with boras for two players, holliday and beltre.

    if they trade lowell, they’re going to put at least $30 million a year into those two guys.

    they year they have to pay beckett. that leaves less flexibility for next years free agent class, which is a lot better than this one

  95. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    “Who knows where jeter will end up. He’s got a couple more years in him at shortstop and them who knows..we can cross that bridge when we get there.”

    Hey bro where’d you buy your crystal ball, I’d like one too.

    Honestly, there’s no way you can say that Jeter is done at SS in a couple years. He was a plus defender there this year and I see no reason to believe he won’t be next year.

  96. BJK December 10th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    SJ-

    For all the talk of being patient and allowing young pitching to develop, are you saying that The Yankees spent the entire season stretching Joba out, only to give up on him as a starter right before he’s ready to pitch a regular full season?

    With Hughes under more of an innings limit, wouldn’t it make more sense to start Hughes in the bullpen and swap them out if Joba falters?

    If Joba moves to the pen now, what was the point of stretching him out and putting him through all that nonsense? What better time is there to test him out than the season after winning the World Series, when pressure to win another championship would (theoretically) be as low as it would ever get?

  97. John in Ohio December 10th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    L to the 2nd

    But, why would he care about Toronto? If they trade him, he won’t be there. And, if they trade him within the division, he’d WANT them to be weaker.

  98. blake December 10th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    Maybe Halladay really doesn’t have a preference among the four or five teams mentioned. As much as yamkee fans want to believe he wants to be a Yankee, nobody knows that. The only thing we know is that he doesn’t want to be a blue jay anymore.

  99. Bret the Hitman December 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    I found it interesting when he mentioned the DH role, the thought seemed to trigger his concerns about Cervelli and the catching situation. I think Doumit makes great sense for the Yankees as a buy-low DH. He’s a switch hitting catcher who can play 3 positions – catcher, right field and first base. He’s more powerful as a lefty, which helps him in Yankees stadium but maintains a .290 career BA as a righty. Power aside, his splits are even. He’s a versatile defender and true switch hitter. He’s also in his 20′s and would make the team younger. They could use him for catching depth should Cervelli flounder. In the meantime, he could DH.

  100. vin December 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    “He would be protecting the interests of his new team, wouldn’t he?”

    He would also be hurting his chances for the best possible extension. I think he wants to get traded, and sign an extension with that team. Instead of becoming a FA. He would have more leverage if he became a FA, but there’s always risk involving a pitcher (plus he would be another year older).

  101. Gary December 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    Brian is being pretty coy about the whole thing. Yanks want either Halliday or Lackey, the Sheets thing is just a distraction.

    I think the chance that both Joba and Phil are with the yanks is about 20% for next year. One is going to get traded for another top line player.

  102. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 10th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    People need to realize that if the Yankees internally give up on Joba as a starter he is not going to the bullpen. He will be traded while he still has value.

    The only way Hughes goes to the bullpen is if it is to limit his innings at either the beginning or end of the season.

    Both Hughes and Joba will be starting pitchers next year.

    SJ, for someone that seems to be dead on most of the time you are way off on this one.

  103. vinny-b December 10th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    - Surprisingly, Ken Davidoff of Newsday writes of an increasing expectation around MLB that the Yankees will eventually re-sign Hideki Matsui.

    hmmmmm…

  104. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 10th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Also, the only way the Yanks are signing Sheets is if they plan to increase payroll next year and all indications point to them decreasing payroll

  105. blake December 10th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Patrick, when I said that I didn’t mean couple as a concrete number. He will play shortstop until he can’t anymore and then we will go from there. That’s what I meant.

  106. vin December 10th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    “wouldn’t you love if Seattle pulled it off ”

    Seattle is getting ready to win that division. Let’s see Scioscia work his magic without his #1 starter, lead-off hitter, and cleanup hitter. They’ll replace those guys, but I’m not sure they’ll be better off next year.

  107. pat December 10th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    “That would be a first; someone supplementing a salary for us.”

    Didn’t the Pirates supplement to the Yanks last year?

  108. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    SJ44,

    You seem to be suffering from a severe case of inflated self-worth from mild association. “I know a guy who knew a guy who’s sister once dated Luis Polonia…thus, poof, I’m George Weiss, Branch Rickey, and Brian Cashman all rolled into one.”
    Omnipotent in baseball knowledge you are not.

  109. Rocky December 10th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Have you guys ever watched Joba pitch ? He is dynamic as a reliever and very conservative as a starter. He could affect the outcome of more games as a reliever than he does as a starter. He also would be in line to be Mariano’s successor. It seems like a no-brainer to me.

  110. Bret the Hitman December 10th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    I’m warming up to the Sheets idea. From what I’ve read CC and Big Ben hit it off in Milwaukee so I hope CC plays an active role in luring him to the bright lights of NYC.

  111. Chip December 10th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    If Navarro is made available, some team will take him. He isn’t going to the minors, and he’ll be paid substantially more than the minimum.

    Wave,

    then you pass on him.

    Everyone seems to assume when I suggest that the Yankees sign average Player X I’m saying give the guy 5 years 200 mil and stick him in the middle of the lineup. I’m not.

    I’m saying that the Yankees (even behind Cervelli) need depth at catcher to replace Cash and Molina. They need some catcher who could be called up if Posada pulls a hammy or Cervelli breaks a leg. That’s what I would bring Navarro here to be. Same way they brought in Cash and Moeller. There is some logic though to bringing in a younger guy like Navarro (25) who may still have room to improve rather than an old man on his last legs.

  112. m December 10th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Laura,

    LOL. Texas paid a part of A-rod’s Yankee salary for years. It was a sinful pleasure taking that much from an AL team.

    I think too the Pirates (or whatever team he came from) paid most of Hinske’s salary.

    Derek Lowe? Wow. Lots of people here wanted him. He’d certainly fit the veteran starter that most of us would like to add.

    Depending on how much salary they’d eat, that could be very intriguing and I think we have enough attractive pieces to make it work.

  113. John in Ohio December 10th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    vin

    OK…I see that point somewhat….but him becoming a FA or not will ultimately be decided by Toronto anyway.

    I’m not aguing that he should do that, just seemed interesting to me, and wondered what the community here thought.

  114. mick December 10th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    They also did not spend the last 2 years building Joba’s innings up to just completely waste all that time and effort and stick him in the bullpen. Both Joba and Hughes will either be starting pitchers next year whether it is for the Yankees or some other team.
    ———————————————————
    As I said last year, Joba as a starter was an EXPERIMENT.
    Not written in stone, Joba will be a starter no matter what. NOT.
    The experiment was not a failure nor was it a resounding success.
    As long as there is a starter better than him on the team and Hughes beats him out in ST, then Joba will be in the pen, as hinted by Cash.

    Take that to the bank.

  115. no.27 December 10th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    2 years in a row now Cashman has made a great trade early in the offseason. Last year, he did it with Swisher. Because Swisher could play OF and 1B, it still left a window open for signing Teixeira but showed that the Yankees wouldn’t overpay for him.

    This year getting Granderson to play CF means that the Yankees can sign a DH cheap (Cashman said something along the lines of everywhere you look DH’s are begging for jobs) and go into the season with Melky in LF. Or, if Damon decides to sign on the Yankees terms, they’ve got Damon and Granderson in LF/CF for close to the same price it cost them to have Damon and Melky there last year.

  116. Paco Dooley December 10th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    Any GM that doesn’t agree with Cashman’s quote “For the right player, I’ll move anybody.” is not doing his job. You have to always look to make your team better. The Twins would trade Mauer for an over the top package, as would the Mariners with King Felix, and if they say no, they are either lying of stupid.

  117. Martha Stewart December 10th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    LOL @ the post by Joe Vogel.

    Will everyone please call SJ44 by his real name?

    It is Joe.

    Pretty please, pretty pretty please?

  118. vinny-b December 10th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    SJ44 has been right a helluva lot more times then he’s been wrong on this board. Don’t know why anyone is doubting/questioning his connections

  119. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    “What exactly has he done that i should accept that?”

    Well he’s built two world series winning teams. I’d say that puts him in the upper echelon by itself.

    More specifically, he does a good job of evaluating player value, he exploits the draft and international markets like every MLB team should and he consistently builds winning clubs while maintaining a top-10 farm system.

    Look, I’m done arguing for the opposition but the bottom line is, Theo is a good GM. You are forgetting my initial point though, I originally said that the media has been telling us that the Red Sox (and Theo) are the “model franchise” and that the Yankees aren’t as well run. Now we are seeing that that is false.

  120. blake December 10th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    The yanks can sign sheets and one of Damon/matsui and still come in at or below last years payroll from what I can tell.

  121. vin December 10th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    I’d be shocked if both Hughes and Joba aren’t with the Yanks next year. The team has invested so much time and energy into developing those two guys. The progress they made last year (Hughes consistently getting outs, and Joba making 30+ starts) will go to the benefit of another team.

    I think moving them now would be selling low. Plenty of team will view them as dominant relievers/inconsistent starters. Their ceilings are much higher than that.

    The best bet is to add 2 of Damon, Cameron, Matsui, and look to get a low-risk/high-reward pitcher like Duchscherer. That would be a ton of offense, and a good, versatile pitching staff.

  122. DaSaint007 December 10th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    Jeter is going to retire as a SS, so can we please get this notion of him as a LF out of our heads.

    I actually prefer Matsui as DH, but wouldn’t mind Damon. I just don’t think Damon will take 2 years. Could be wrong, but we’ll see. I just can’t imagine both back. Highly unlikely.

    I can see Ben Sheets being signed, but I’m just unsure if he’ll be ready to contribute at the start of the season. Likewise, if Hughes is in the rotation, he will have innings limits, so someone else has to step in: Gaudin? Aceves? Someonwe else?

    I still would try to offer Wang a contract, as he won’t be ready until later in the season. I think it’s worth it to have his potential under control for late 2010 and/or 2011. How many 19-game winners do you let get away, unless you know medically that it’s impossible for him to contribute.

  123. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    Patrick the Prospect Hugger
    December 10th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
    “Who knows where jeter will end up. He’s got a couple more years in him at shortstop and them who knows..we can cross that bridge when we get there.”

    Hey bro where’d you buy your crystal ball, I’d like one too.

    Honestly, there’s no way you can say that Jeter is done at SS in a couple years. He was a plus defender there this year and I see no reason to believe he won’t be next year.

    I’m basing that prognostication on precedence. In all seriousness, name a similar SS who has been productive defensively in their late 30′s. I’m not rooting against Jeter. Quite the contrary, I’m being realistic about the future (One cannot simply plan 6 months ahead and expect success). Along with catcher and 2B, SS is the most challenging defensive position on the diamond. Jeter will lose range (I suspect he will still have the arm to play it) and the volume of balls not gotten to during the course of a full season will be meaningful.

  124. John in Ohio December 10th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    SJ44 is Joe Buck?

    Say it ain’t so, Joe.

  125. BJK December 10th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    mick
    December 10th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    As I said last year, Joba as a starter was an EXPERIMENT.
    Not written in stone, Joba will be a starter no matter what. NOT.
    The experiment was not a failure nor was it a resounding success.
    As long as there is a starter better than him on the team and Hughes beats him out in ST, then Joba will be in the pen, as hinted by Cash.
    Take that to the bank.

    ————————————————

    Funny. Some might argue that initially moving Joba to the pen in the first place was the experiment.

  126. Lombardi December 10th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    Reverting for a moment to the Montero discussion on the last thread, another big catcher who I think everyone forgets, is HOF’er Ernie Lombardi who played way back in the 30′s and 40′s – for 17 years, in fact!

    He was 6″3 and 230lbs.

    Regardless of what everyone says, “Monty” “stands” a chance!

  127. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 10th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    Baseball players are defined by the value they bring to their team:

    Joba working out as a starter: very very valuable

    Joba as a centerpiece trade chip: very valuable

    Joba as a reliever: minimal value

  128. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 10th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    speaking of Joba and the other youngsters who just won a World Series.

    Is anyone “checking up” on them making sure they don’t go to pot, and show up to play in the spring.

    Is K Long going to visit Robi in the DR?

    Maybe some offseason charity stuff to remind them their work has just begun.

  129. Wave Your Hat December 10th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    Chip-

    I guess I’m not being clear. I’m assuming the Yanks have a fixed budget, or a somehat fixed budget. That means they have to make trade-offs. Spending one single dime more than the minimum on a back-up catcher is one dime less that they have to spend on more pressing needs. So they won’t spend it on the back-up catcher, so they won’t get Navarro.

  130. Martha Stewart December 10th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    No.

    SJ44 is not Joe Buck.

  131. Laura - Bring back Matsui in 2010! December 10th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    “LOL. Texas paid a part of A-rod’s Yankee salary for years. It was a sinful pleasure taking that much from an AL team.”

    Wow, I forgot about that. It was so long ago.

    “I think too the Pirates (or whatever team he came from) paid most of Hinske’s salary.”

    This I did not know. PIT paid us to take Hinske? Too funny. And he got a ring to boot.

  132. vin December 10th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    “OK…I see that point somewhat….but him becoming a FA or not will ultimately be decided by Toronto anyway.”

    Not necessarily – he could get dealt to a team that views him as a 1 year rental – and he could waive his NTC to go there to get off the Jays and onto a contending team (like the Rays for example).

    I really thought he was going to the Dodgers. That was my bold prediction here last July. Unfortunately that team is flat broke. He would’ve really fit in well there. They’re a #1 starter away from the WS. Vicente Padilla started an LCS game for them!

  133. John in Ohio December 10th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    I could see Joba stepping into the set-up role for a couple of years, and then replacing Rivera as the closer.

  134. L to the 2nd December 10th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    John:

    I think if Halladay did that, he would hurt his own leverage as well (as vin said, in getting an extension with another team). If TOR were unable to trade him, it would make things pretty ugly there for the year.

  135. GreenBeret7 December 10th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    Jeter may switch positions at some time, but, it won’t be before he does something no other shortstop has ever down…collect 3,000 hits.

  136. Ninja Burglar December 10th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    I’ve been on the recieving end of an SJ44 “you just said something stupid” type comment. But the guy knows what he’s talking about. I usually just skim through the treads looking for his comments, being that he’s one of the most consistent and knowledgable posters here.

  137. Bret the Hitman December 10th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    blake
    December 10th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
    I agree that if they sign sheets that joba should go to the pen. If that happens then you are basically closing the door on him as a starter. Wouldn’t it be better to trade him while he still has the value of a potential starter?

    That’s a really good point.

  138. m December 10th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    Cash gets a lot more grief for doing a lot less wrong than Theo.

    Theo’s done more than a lot of other gm’s in building 2 championship teams in close proximity to each other.

    But the Yankees are in much better shape top to bottom, from the big league club to the state of the minor league teams than the Red Sox right now. And don’t tell me it’s resources. The Red Sox chose not to pay Tex and ended with Victor and Kotchman and one other guy who’s name is escaping me right now. They chose not to dip into the FA pitching class last season knowing this year’s class would be bad. Instead going with cheap rehab projects like Penny and Smoltz and the gambles hurt them big time.

    So, yes, Theo’s a good gm, but it’s all relative. I don’t think we should be expected to bow at his feet for those two championships.

  139. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    Lombardi
    December 10th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
    Reverting for a moment to the Montero discussion on the last thread, another big catcher who I think everyone forgets, is HOF’er Ernie Lombardi who played way back in the 30’s and 40’s – for 17 years, in fact!

    He was 6?3 and 230lbs.

    Regardless of what everyone says, “Monty” “stands” a chance!

    Good example, although Lombardi was more of a DH in a DH-less league.
    I’m not saying that their is no chance that Montero will not be a catcher, but there is a very strong possibility that he will be a defensive liability with potentially a huge bat (that could be attenuated by the wear and tear of catching). The Yankees have made the mistake of trying to hide good bats/bad gloves behind the plate before (Anyone remember the ’80′s–Nokes, Slaught, Hassey?).

  140. timo December 10th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    In addition to the Alex and Hinske trade examples, there’s also the Leiter pickup (with the Marlins paying his big salary over the minimum) and the Sexson pickup (Mariners paying the freight). Cashman likes to have other people pay and will hold on to the bitter end rather than pay out himself (Igawa, Pavano, Giambi). Kind of like Costanza and parking.

    So I can see a Lowe deal happening.

  141. GreenBeret7 December 10th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    no other shortstop has ever ***done***…collect 3,000 hits.

  142. Doreen December 10th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    Brian Cashman acknowledged in his interview yesterday on the MLBN (after the Granderson trade was announced) that Joba has two different personalities as a pitcher. As a relief pitcher – he is all out there, and he describe him as “conservative” when he is a starter.

    Yes, they stretched Joba out. In a perfect world, Joba is given another opportunity to start. But the Yankees and Cashman are pretty flexible and apparently they are not blind, either.

    I would love to see Joba succeed as a starter. And if the Yankees go that route, that would be fine. But I’m no longer staunchly opposed to having Joba in the pen, with an eye toward developing him as a closer. If it’s to be merely a set up guy in perpetuity, then it’s best for Joba to be traded. I’m not blind either, and I like to think of myself as a fairly “go with the flow” kind of person, most of the time anyway.

    Sometimes situations present themselves that you didn’t expect, and you have to go with it or be the worse for not doing so.

  143. Jeremy December 10th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    Theo got Boof Bonser from the Twins…LOL !

    What is he doing ? I wonder if he is trying to form a package of talent to ship to San Diego for Adrian, or he is really going along with this “bridge” to the future thing.

  144. Pat M. December 10th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    SJ, Any word on Tony going to camp in February….Much talk about Pittsburgh moving Doumit…..In the end, I do expect Matsui returning for several reasons…The first and most important purpose is to hit behind Alex…..There’s no other options out there or from within….Lefthanded power stroke, bleeds rbi’s……I know I sound like a broken record again ( see Granderson ), however the ballclub is better with him, and less without him….

  145. no.27 December 10th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    The thing that most people here miss is that the Yankees won 103 games last year with Joba as the 4th starter and an overall terrible group of pitchers at the 5th spot in the rotation. Joba and Hughes can improve on the production from last season’s 4th and 5th starters while continuing to develop.

    The best case scenario for the Yankees is for Joba and Hughes to both reach their potential as front of the rotation starters. There is no reason for the Yankees to not give them that chance when they can clearly win with them playing up to reasonable expectations as they develop.

  146. Betsy -high on pie December 10th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    Seth Everett says the Angels have the inside track to Doc because they are willing to give up Saunders (does Saunders do much for the Jays? I guess they can spin him as the Fox article mentioned as he is arbitration-eligible)…….He also mentioned the Phillies, but that they would have to give up more than Dominic Brown, Happ….I guess possibly Drabek? I’m not familiar with how Ruben Amaro does business ; he did say that a run at Doc is possible, but very unlikely. Of course, if he does business like Cash, that could mean nothing. On the other hand, Ed Price tweeted yesterday that the Jays are interested in minor leaguers, not established major leaguers. **Everett also said that the Angels pursuit of Doc does not preclude them from re-signing Lackey.

    This is really nothing new…….seems like the same old ,same old

  147. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    GreenBeret7
    December 10th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
    no other shortstop has ever ***done***…collect 3,000 hits.

    Arguably Honus Wagner?

  148. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 10th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    By the time Joba would be able to take over for Mo he will be a free agent in line for a nice big closers contract just like any other free agent closers (if the reliever thing panned out). In that case you can just sign any other free agent closers or even sign Joba if he was traded. Therefore, Joba as as the successor to Mariano has no more value to the Yankees right now than a guy who does not even play for the Yankees like a Houston Street for example.

    If Joba is indeed a future closer you trade him now to get another cost controlled young SP or a guy like Halladay. And then in a few years if your heart so desires sign him as a free agent to be a closer.

  149. Betsy -high on pie December 10th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    Please – Derek Lowe? Off of his bad year in the NL? No thanks.

  150. Bret the Hitman December 10th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    So does this mean the Joba-to-the-pen crowd isn’t a bunch of delusional idiots?

  151. GreenBeret7 December 10th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    Joe Vogel
    December 10th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
    GreenBeret7
    December 10th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
    no other shortstop has ever ***done***…collect 3,000 hits.

    Arguably Honus Wagner?

    ————————————————————

    Not even arguably. Neither did Ripkin nor Yount.

  152. Doreen December 10th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    let’s go yankees -

    I’m not so sure that people outside the Yankee organization would see Joba as a starter. I NEVER, or almost never, hear any commentary in favor of Joba as a starter. Most would put Joba in the pen. So, I don’t know what that does to his trade value.

    Now, that doesn’t mean nobody would want Joba as a starter – I haven’t heard ALL the commentary that’s fit to spit, but just going on what I’ve generally heard.

  153. Betsy -high on pie December 10th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    According to a report yesterday, Doc wants to hit FA……I don’t blame him as it’s his last chance for a big score. If the Jays work a deal with his preferred team, maybe he changes his mind.

  154. blake December 10th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    If the Yankees sit down and internally decide that Jobas future is in the bullpen would it not be wise to shop him before he is labeled as that by other teams? The value gap between a young starter and a young relief pitcher is huge.

  155. randy l. December 10th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    joe vogel

    why are you so threatened by the fact sj44 knows a lot of people in the sports business?

    it’s not his fault that you never crossed the line from just being a fan to actually working in the sports world.

    i say get a life and go pay your dues in some sport related business instead of trying to bash someone who clearly has paid his dues.

  156. Bret the Hitman December 10th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    If Joba is indeed a future closer you trade him now to get another cost controlled young SP or a guy like Halladay. And then in a few years if your heart so desires sign him as a free agent to be a closer.

    Good point. But I’d tried to deal him for a younger starter or a top notch position player prospect.

  157. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 10th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    GB7 are you showing some affection for Mr. Jeter? – like to see it,
    You usually take the disappointed grandfather position – or am I way off base?

  158. Wave Your Hat December 10th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    “i say get a life and go pay your dues in some sport related business instead of trying to bash someone who clearly has paid his dues.”

    Seems like a lot of trouble to go to just to post anonymously on a blog.

  159. champ809 December 10th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    If anyone goes to the ‘pen it’s Hughes not Joba as Joba is ready to give you 200 innings and Joba also has over 40 starts under his belt.

    Sheets will-assuming that his medicals say he’s 100% healthy-probably get at least a 2yr contract…I agree if he’s healthy he’s the best starter available on the FA market

  160. vin December 10th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    “Regardless of what everyone says, “Monty” “stands” a chance!”

    Of course he does. Some people just like to re-iterate what they read on some “analyst’s” Twitter. Piazza was a monster behind the plate, but as was mentioned his shortcoming were not because of his size – it was his awful arm. Jason Varitek is a big dude and he’s been a ML catcher for over a decade now.

    Montero may not develop the skills necessary to be a catcher, but that’s not necessarily related to his size.

  161. Laura - Bring back Matsui in 2010! December 10th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Just because Joba hasn’t excelled yet as a starter doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t be one. Facts are facts – the guy has 4 good pitches. Someone with that arsenal should not be “wasting” his talents in the bullpen. It’s up to Joba to make his role as a starter a successful one.

  162. timo December 10th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Not saying that Lowe would necessarily be a good idea (would depend on how much Braves would eat) just that I can see the concept being attractive to Cashman.

  163. Bret the Hitman December 10th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    If anyone goes to the ‘pen it’s Hughes not Joba as Joba is ready to give you 200 innings and Joba also has over 40 starts under his belt.

    That’s a good point and why I originally felt that Hughes would start 2010 in AAA if the Yankees bring in Sheets or Lackey or Halladay etc. etc.

  164. ray (sox fan) December 10th, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    GB

    I’m not dissing Jeter at all. He is a great player and will certainly be a first round Hall of Fame inductee.

    Just a quick question though. Cal Ripken Jr. did play 3rd base at least a couple years but didn’t he play most of his career at shortshop and he definitely had over 3000 hits.

  165. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 10th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    Is Montero’s bat ready for the majors?

  166. Rocky December 10th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    Why not keep Joba and have the game be over after seven innings when the Yanks have the lead. Isn’t that valuable ?

  167. Bret the Hitman December 10th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    So who is the setup guy?

    Obviously not Soriano.

    Please don’t say Robertson.

    For a setup guy, I want someone who can fill in as an emergency closer.

  168. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 10th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    Doesn’t Jeter currently have most hits as a SS?

  169. Laura - Bring back Matsui in 2010! December 10th, 2009 at 3:06 pm

    “Just a quick question though. Cal Ripken Jr. did play 3rd base at least a couple years but didn’t he play most of his career at shortshop and he definitely had over 3000 hits.”

    ray, I don’t think he had all 3,000 at SS. He might have moved to 3B by the time he reached 3K. I’m not sure.

  170. Noreaster December 10th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    Yes Uncle Ellsworth, Jeter is the all time leader at SS for hits…

  171. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 10th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    Jeter has the most hits as a shortstop. And Always will.

  172. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 10th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    I am sorry, but I have to post this again to make it clear:

    BY THE TIME JOBA WOULD THEORETICALLY BE THE “SUCCESSOR” TO MO HE WILL BE A FREE AGENT AND IF HE IS GOOD ENOUGH TO HIS SUCCESSOR HE WILL COMMAND A $15 MILLION A YEAR CONTRACT.

    Also, Papelbon will probably get 10 million next year in arbitration. When Joba hits his last couple years of arbitration we would be paying him about that to be an 8th inning guy. That is a ton of dough to pay a set-up man

  173. GreenBeret7 December 10th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench)
    December 10th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
    GB7 are you showing some affection for Mr. Jeter? – like to see it,
    You usually take the disappointed grandfather position – or am I way off base?

    ————————————————————

    Not at all, Ellie. I think Jeter is one of the top 3-4 shortstops in history and by the end of his career, could be the best overall and I enjoy watching him go out and do his job. I always thought that he couldpull the ball for more power when needed, though.

    There are a couple of things that annoy me, though, because I don’t see him as a god-like being. I also don’t think that he was ever the best choice as team captain. He has far too exclusive clique. That clique is who he’s the team captain for. When it suits his purposes.

  174. L to the 2nd December 10th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    I don’t think Hughes ever sees SWB again – unless he drives by it (or watches “The Office”).

  175. Bret the Hitman December 10th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    Maybe the Yankees see Joba as a future dominant closer in which case it makes sense to hold onto him?

    If so, the Yankees will sign Lackey and save their prospects.

    CC, Lackey, AJ, Andy.

    How’d you like to face them in a short series?

  176. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    randy l.
    December 10th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
    joe vogel

    why are you so threatened by the fact sj44 knows a lot of people in the sports business?

    it’s not his fault that you never crossed the line from just being a fan to actually working in the sports world.

    i say get a life and go pay your dues in some sport related business instead of trying to bash someone who clearly has paid his dues.

    Saucy…I’m at a loss for words Freud (amateur hour?).
    No, seriously, it’s more of an annoyance. I won’t portend to know EXACTLY what the Yankees are going to do. I can’t. I do not have the authority to make the final decision, nor am I in a position of significant influence. I am merely a mid-30′s, humble law student in the Midwest with a deep love for baseball (hell I still play it in the summers–no guarantees on quality anymore). I am not going to flaunt my “connections” to professional baseball (there are a few) in order to impress others or inflate my own self-worth. Rather, I am fascinated with the business and personnel aspects of big league baseball and my lifelong favorite team the Yankees. Unfortunately, I waste far too much time on the Yanks in light of my current studies (as I’m trying to study for a Con Law final as we speak).
    So unless SJ44 aka Joe is actually wielding real influence in the Yankess organization, he should refrain from posturing as an authority on their future decision-making.

  177. Noreaster December 10th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    Uncle Ellsworth, just google “jeter all time hits leader for shortstop”

  178. Martha Stewart December 10th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    It is not about respect.

    Joe (SJ44) acts with 100% certainty all the time.

    Unless he is in the Yankees organization, his conceitedness is unwarranted.

  179. Seven December 10th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    I like to give Joba another shot this year as a starter. I still feel he has the talent to become a future ace. If he does fail as a starter he will make a great closer and be Mariano’s replacement.

    Funny how Joba struggling in august and september can change people’s opinions on him so quickly. Before he was almost untouchable in a lot of yankee fans minds. Now he is in bunch of purposed trade deals.

    Joba major leage career so far:
    3.61 era in 281.2 ip with 285 strikeouts. Those are great numbers for a 24 year old kid pitching in the al east with very little minor league experience. I wouldn’t trade him.

  180. RayVT December 10th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    I was kind of surprised at some of the sizes for Catchers over the years. 1st I found all the HOF Catchers, then I added 4 other great Catchers defensively at least with Karkovice being voted the best Defensive catcher ever. Montero is not much different than the norm here.

    Johnny Bench 6’ – 1” 208 Lbs
    Yogi Berra 5’ – 8” 198 Lbs
    Roger Bresnahan 5’ – 9” 200 Lbs
    Roy Campanella 5’ – 8” 200 Lbs
    Gary Carter 6’ – 2” 215 Lbs
    Mickey Cochrane 5’ – 10½” 180 Lbs
    Bill Dickey 6’ – 2” 185 Lbs
    Buck Ewing 5’ – 10” 188 Lbs
    Rick Ferrell 5’ – 10” 160 Lbs
    Carlton Fisk 6’ – 2” 220 Lbs
    Gabby Hartnett 6’ – 1” 195 Lbs
    Ernie Lombardi 6’ – 3” 230 Lbs
    Ray Schalk 5’ – 9” 165 Lbs

    Lance Parrish 6’ – 3” 220 Lbs
    Joe Mauer 6’ – 5” 220 Lbs
    Ray Fosse 6’ – 2” 215 Lbs
    Ron Karkovice 6’ – 2” 215 Lbs
    Jesus Montero 6’ – 4” 225 Lbs

  181. flash December 10th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    where has cb been?

  182. Erin December 10th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    L to the 2nd
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
    I don’t think Hughes ever sees SWB again – unless he drives by it (or watches “The Office”).

    *********************
    gold star for The Office reference :)

  183. Noreaster December 10th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    Brett, My first pick to be the 8th inning guy is Marte, followed by Joba (since that is the tandem used in the WS). I would also have no problems going back to Phil. (I know, two of these guys are starters…just saying).

  184. Bronx Born December 10th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    Mr. Vogel,

    Despite your insinuation and outright invalidation, SJ is a most trusted source for information and does have much inside scoop. Aside from that we like him. So take your nastiness elsewhere, it is not needed or wanted here.

  185. Martha Stewart December 10th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    His real name is Joe Casale (SJ44)

  186. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    “So who is the setup guy?
    Obviously not Soriano.
    Please don’t say Robertson.
    For a setup guy, I want someone who can fill in as an emergency closer. ”

    Robertson and Marte.

    Marte has experience closing.

  187. Laura - Bring back Matsui in 2010! December 10th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    “where has cb been?”

    He/she posted a couple of threads back. Erica has been missing as well.

  188. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 10th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    Not at all, Ellie. I think Jeter is one of the top 3-4 shortstops in history and by the end of his career, could be the best overall and I enjoy watching him go out and do his job. I always thought that he couldpull the ball for more power when needed, though.

    There are a couple of things that annoy me, though, because I don’t see him as a god-like being. I also don’t think that he was ever the best choice as team captain. He has far too exclusive clique. That clique is who he’s the team captain for. When it suits his purposes.

    This is what i was referring to.
    Just bustin’ your chops a little

    I constantly tell my neices and nephews to relish the fact thay can watch Mr. Jeter and Mr. Rivera play. (and a few other s well)

  189. GreenBeret7 December 10th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    ray (sox fan)
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
    GB

    I’m not dissing Jeter at all. He is a great player and will certainly be a first round Hall of Fame inductee.

    Just a quick question though. Cal Ripken Jr. did play 3rd base at least a couple years but didn’t he play most of his career at shortshop and he definitely had over 3000 hits.

    ————————————————————

    Ripkin played almost 700 games at third, plus DH and pinch hitting.

    Yount had over 1200 games in center field and another 140 as a DH.

    Wagner played almost 1,000 games at other positions other than shortstop.

    Jeter has less than 20 games as a DH or pinch hitter. He’s never played another defensive position and has less than 20 hits as a DH or pinch hitter.

  190. CountryClub December 10th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    You don’t have to be in the yankee organization to get reliable info on what they’re thinking. i know two people that work in the industry (not with the Yanks) and 90% of what they tell me ends up being true.

  191. Rocky December 10th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    If you trade Joba who is the 8th inning guy in the meantime ? Do you remember Kyle Farnsworth ? Or Tanyon Sturtze ? Maybe one of them is available.

  192. Erin December 10th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    Laura – Bring back Matsui in 2010!
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
    “where has cb been?”

    He/she posted a couple of threads back. Erica has been missing as well.

    ***********************
    Laura, Erica can’t go on the internet at work anymore. She does still post, but it’s usually during the evening.

  193. PittsburghYankeeFan December 10th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    First, stop with the SJ44 abuse.

    The guy is connected–it’s obvious that he has inside knowledge at the level of someone in the business.

    We are lucky that he want to post and mix it up with us lowly fans.

    Second: can Sheets stuff translate from the NL Central to the AL East? Is that worth $8 million after the Pavano fiasco?

  194. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    Why can’t Erica go on the internet at work anymore? She was always fun to have around.

  195. Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench) December 10th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    GB to your point. I love when Jeter goes for the HR to left in the right spots.

  196. CountryClub December 10th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    If Sheets is healthy, his stuff can work anywhere.

  197. GGCG (Goodness Gracious Curtis Granderson!) December 10th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    I was a big supporter of Joba in the rotation. That was because I thought he’d be a reasonable equivalent of the snorting, flamethrower strikout artist that came out of the pen for 6-7 innings every 5th day.

    The Joba we got as a starter was a 90-92 mph nibbler. If that is who he is as a starter trade him now while his value is high or put him back in the pen.

    Given my options between a Joba being a great starter and a stud reliever, I’ll take him as a great starter.

    Given my options between Joba being a mediocre starter and a stud reliver, I’ll take him as the reliever.

  198. Laura - Bring back Matsui in 2010! December 10th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    “Laura, Erica can’t go on the internet at work anymore. She does still post, but it’s usually during the evening.”

    My job put a ban on it as well, but as you can see, I’m choosing to ignore it. LOL!

  199. Erin December 10th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Patrick the Prospect Hugger
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
    Why can’t Erica go on the internet at work anymore? She was always fun to have around.

    ***************
    Patrick, it was something about how they ran an internet usage report for her office, and didn’t like what they found. LOL

  200. GreenBeret7 December 10th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    Ellie, I always thought that the real team captains over the last 7-9 years were Rivera and Posada.

  201. Erin December 10th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    Laura – Bring back Matsui in 2010!
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
    “Laura, Erica can’t go on the internet at work anymore. She does still post, but it’s usually during the evening.”

    My job put a ban on it as well, but as you can see, I’m choosing to ignore it. LOL!

    ****************
    You’re like me, I’m not supposed to be on either. ;)

  202. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    “Patrick, it was something about how they ran an internet usage report for her office, and didn’t like what they found. LOL”

    Ouch, if they did the same thing to my office I’d probably be in a bit of hot water.

  203. Pat M. December 10th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Joe Vogel, Welecome to The LoHud….Great Yankee site, tough crowd at times…I think you handled yourself rather well……Randy I ( The Original Tin Cup ) is tough as nails at times, but doesn’t bite…..It’s that GB guy you need to watch out for !!! He’ll bite your ame off and smile as he chews it right in front of you…..I admire that fact that you still strap it on …..You certainly made a splash…..

  204. PittsburghYankeeFan December 10th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Man, the Sox look like the 05-06 Yankees right now.

    Ouch. (PS, not really…I’m loving it)

  205. Chip December 10th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    On Johnny Damon:

    According to Francesa (who isn’t by any means an insider but may be right about this) the odds are Damon will have to take the best offer made to him, even from a loser team.

    Damon (and Xavier Nady among others) were caught up in a ponzi scheme and may have lost a lot of money. If that’s the case then he’s going to look at this as his last chance to cash in.

    That said, maybe a 1 year 9 mil deal is the best he can get, but if someone, say the White Sox or the Giants, come back with 2 years $16 mil, he might just take it.

    Here’s the link: http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/0.....re-change/

  206. Nick in SF December 10th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    Theo a genius?

    Wake up and smell the Manny!

  207. RayVT December 10th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    LOL! I believe SJ & GB & a few others have been spot on most of the time. While I know quite a few MLB players including my uncle, I do not have any inside info just an opinion!! LOL! And we all know what that is worth. SJ has opinions too, & he is usually right. LOL! It doesn’t matter what his apparent attitude or lack thereof on this board. As I & others have said he is usually right.

    So get over it!!! Go play your fantasy BB or FB & be a winner there! LOL!

  208. rodg12 December 10th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    Ripken had 2479 hits as a SS. He had 678 as a 3B (add in 24 as a DH an 3 as a PH to get is career totals). Jeter’s currently at 2731 as a SS (plus 16 as DH). Hopefully, he can get his 3000 as a SS in 2 years.

  209. Bret the Hitman December 10th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    Assuming the Yankees think Joba is merely a mediocre starter yet a stud reliever, Cashman definitely must add another starter this offseason. When you pencil in Joba in the pen, it opens many questions in the rotation. It’s puzzling to me that after signing Andy, Cashman says that the Yanks won’t be signing any more big name pitchers.

  210. GreenBeret7 December 10th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench)
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
    GB to your point. I love when Jeter goes for the HR to left in the right spots.

    ————————————————————

    Ellie, that’s what always surprised me. He’s got outstanding power when he wants to. You look at those shots into Monument Park and the ones to right center. You can’t just flip the ball to those spots. Those are shots. There’s been a lot of games when NYY needed a late inning bomb and he’d settle for a single to right. I don’t want him to be a strict pull hitter, just pick his spots in the game. Take one crack at it a game.

  211. DaSaint007 December 10th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    This is the BLOG Police. Stand away from your computers and go back to work. LOL!

  212. Erin December 10th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    Patrick the Prospect Hugger
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
    “Patrick, it was something about how they ran an internet usage report for her office, and didn’t like what they found. LOL”

    Ouch, if they did the same thing to my office I’d probably be in a bit of hot water.

    **********************
    Same here

  213. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    Thanks Pat. I’ve always enjoyed stirring the pot. I presume that you’re good Irishman (German-Irish myself).

  214. Erin December 10th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    DaSaint007
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
    This is the BLOG Police. Stand away from your computers and go back to work. LOL!

    *********************
    Uh oh, DaSaint is going to rat us all out! ;)

  215. Noreaster December 10th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    GGCG, Joba is still young and showed some steady improvement until the Joba Rules started having him pitch every 8 days or so. We know he can be a GREAT reliever, his work in July shows that he maybe a good to very good starter. Give him time to progress and learn how to start on the major league level…

    As an aside, he did nibble early but seemed to get stronger as the game went on, lets see what the year brings and what the Yankee needs are.

  216. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    RayVT are you really laughing that much? Weird..

  217. BJK December 10th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    GGCG (Goodness Gracious Curtis Granderson!)
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
    I was a big supporter of Joba in the rotation. That was because I thought he’d be a reasonable equivalent of the snorting, flamethrower strikout artist that came out of the pen for 6-7 innings every 5th day.
    The Joba we got as a starter was a 90-92 mph nibbler. If that is who he is as a starter trade him now while his value is high or put him back in the pen.
    Given my options between a Joba being a great starter and a stud reliever, I’ll take him as a great starter.
    Given my options between Joba being a mediocre starter and a stud reliver, I’ll take him as the reliever.

    ————————————————–

    Agreed. My point is that we haven’t found out if he is just a mediocre starter yet. He should get another season to develop.

  218. Chip December 10th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    Nick in SF
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
    Theo a genius?

    Wake up and smell the Manny!
    —————————-

    Wouldn’t really call Manny a mistake but even if I did, everyone makes them: Farnsworth, Quantrill, Pavano, Hawkins, Myers, Villone, Kevin Brown, Jeff Weaver, Giambi, Vazquez, Big Unit….

  219. Jeremy December 10th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    PittsburghYankeeFan
    I know. The Sox just got Boof Bonser from the twins basically for a bag of balls. I don’t understand these trades. Maybe Theo really is going along with his bridge year theme.

  220. Pat M. December 10th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Joe Vogel, Irish-Italian and grew up in an all Yittish neighbohood in Westchester…..That’s my excuse for insanity

  221. GreenBeret7 December 10th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Like I said, Cashman may give both Matsui and Damon a one time offer and tell them to take it or leave it and go with the first one to accept the deal.

  222. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 10th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Joba as a mediocre starter is still>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Joba as a reliever.

    Do you realize how much mediocre starters get on the open market? Randy Wolf is just one in a line many who get 10+ million a year.

    For 10-12 million a year you can sign two set up men and still have money left over.

  223. RayVT December 10th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    Patrick the Prospect Hugger
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    Yes I do!! LOL! I have a lot to laugh about, don’t you? I was sure Girardi would be fired at midseason!! I thought Manny was a lock for NYY! I even thought Toronto would finish 3rd with boston 4th with Yanks winning & TB in 2nd. I even cringe when our prospects leave, although I don’t hug them!!!

  224. Bret the Hitman December 10th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    All of this insinuation of Joba in the pen might just be Cashman warning Joba to come into camp in shape and more focused than last spring training. His conditioning is key. I’m ok with Joba and Hughes in the rotation, but I’d still like to see one more starter added or one of those two packaged for a young top end guy.

  225. Nick in SF December 10th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    I didn’t call Manny a mistake. The point was that Theo has not won a title without Manny and his big bat.

    (I am referring to Manny Ramirez, who used to play in left field for Boston)

  226. Pat M. December 10th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    Bret the hitman….I think both Hughes & Joba are considered young top end guys….That’s why GM’s want them in every trade proposal….

  227. Noreaster December 10th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    As for Damon, my guess is that Cashman is not low balling him and has offered him 18M for 2 years. Damon is probably trying to get more than that. Damon as a DH/LF for 2 years would be fine. My guess is the fallback is a one year offer to Matsui to be DH. Either outcome would be fine for the 2010 Yankees.

  228. champ809 December 10th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    “As I said last year, Joba as a starter was an EXPERIMENT.”

    actually you are toyally wrong…Joba to the pen in ’07 was the EXPERIMENT and because it was such a success people are confused about that being where he belongs…

    Joba has been a dominant STARTING PITCHER his ENTIRE life playing the game,lil league-minors he’s been a DOMINANT STARTER.

    The Yanks drafted him because of his ability as a dominant STARTER.
    Joba BLEW AWAY minor league comp as a STARTER who we then converted to a reliever as an “EXPERIMENT” out of need because the ML team in ’07 had a gaping hole in the Pen.
    He was dominant in that role as most ANY FRONTLINE STARTER WITH FRONT OF THE RO STUFF WOULD BE IN A 1 INNING ROLE.

    Joba’s GREATEST VALUE to the YANKS would be as a 200+ inning dominant starter and he’s shown the ability to be just that if left alone.

    If the Joba as a starter path was failing as in he had been terrible as a starter then OK switch him to the pen and keep moving.

    But he’s actually been very successful as starter and very impressive when you consider that he’s “learning on the fly”,pitching in the TOUGHEST division in baseball on the BIGGEST stage in the sport.

    The fact is if you study his #’s from July ’08 when he went into the rotation until July ’09 when the Yanks started the 2inning-3inning “starts” portion of the rules program you will see that in his first 35 big league starts he has a 3.13era/less than a hit per inning/and more than a K per inning with a BAA in the low 200′s! at thhe age of 22-23.

    Is that failing or passing with flying colors?

    now that he’s finally built up and ready to go we’re going to put him in the pen to waste away throwing 15-20 pitches every other day? That’s laziness on the part of Girardi and Eiland. They should be adamant about Joba being the #4 this year and giving us 34 starts just like the Sox pitching coach was adamant about not giving up on Lester for Johan when he predicted that Lester would win just as many if not more games than Johan over the next 3yrs. The sox were rewarded with a young cost controlled relatively cheap ace and similar production at a sixth of the cost.

  229. UpState December 10th, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    Yiddish.

  230. Jeremy December 10th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    I was for Joba being a starter but I could see him becoming a closer. Hughes seems like the perfect fit. I can see Hughes becoming a great starter.

  231. Bret the Hitman December 10th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    Pat M.

    I guess what I mean is younger than Halladay but more proven than Hughes and/or Joba.

  232. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    Pat M.
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
    Joe Vogel, Irish-Italian and grew up in an all Yittish neighbohood in Westchester…..That’s my excuse for insanity

    West central Iowa, town of 500. We had a stoplight…in the county (Dad grew up with the Yanks in the ’50′s and ’60′s. Whitey, Mickey, Billy, Eddie, Allie, Yogi, Tony, Casey, Bobby…see the trend. Before Vietnam he was stationed at West Point in the summer of ’68. The Yankees, crappy as they were at the time in the Mick’s last season, used to let the servicemen in the bleachers for free if in uniform. He went often.)

  233. randy l. December 10th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    “Unfortunately, I waste far too much time on the Yanks in light of my current studies (as I’m trying to study for a Con Law final as we speak).”

    joe vogel-

    it’s understandable that you’re a little cranky from law finals, but i think your annoyance with sj44 is misgudied.

    from my limited experience and connections in baseball , i have no doubt that sj44 is the real deal. and if you think him and i always agree take a look back at some of our cashman discussions.

    but agreeing is not the point. the point is intelligent conversation about the yankees, and i think sj44 obviously qualifies in that regard.
    ————————————————–

    now as far as all these catcher heights.

    from standing next to fisk i would be very surprised that he’s only 6″2″. i’d say 6’3” at least. mark sullivan was a red sox catcher and he was listed at 6’4″. i’ve been around both him and fisk and they are the same height in my mind.

    another tall catcher i’ve been around was paul casanova the old senators and braves catcher. he’s listed at 6’4″. fisk also seemed almost as tall as him.

    not that it really matters , but i think you have to take the listed heights on the back of cards or on baseball websites with a grain of salt.

    i have a hunch that short catchers have inches added and tall catchers have inches removed because it ‘s not good to be too short or too tall.

  234. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    “(I am referring to Manny Ramirez, who used to play in left field for Boston)”

    Oops I thought you were talking about the guy that made my burrito at Chipolte today.

  235. DaSaint007 December 10th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    Cashman knows what he’s doing. The market (spelled economy) has been atrocious. Overall, the typical value of these contracts appears lower than last year. In my mind, Abreu didn’t get a 2 yr, $19 mil contract. He got a 3 year (sorry about robbing you last year) $24 mil contract. That’s an average of $8 mil/per.

    Something tells me that $8-9 million is the target that the Yankees are willing to offer for their LF, and considerably less for DH. If he has been offered 2/$20 he should take it and run, and I think he would. But I don’t think it was offered.

  236. GreenBeret7 December 10th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    UpState
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
    Yiddish.

    ————————————————————

    Troll.

  237. tony in albany December 10th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    this came from Buster Olney’s blog this morning:
    “Was told this: The Yankees want to re-sign Johnny Damon, but if they can’t, they’ll move on to others. If they do sign Damon, they’ll probably look to trade Nick Swisher.”

    can anyone offer any insight on that? SJ? anyone? I was a little confused by why resigning Damon would mean moving Swish….who would play right field? Melky/Gardner? Despite his pitiful playoff numbers, he was still a 30HR, 80 RBI guy during the season.

  238. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    mark sullivan was a red sox catcher and he was listed at 6?4?. i’ve been around both him and fisk and they are the same height in my mind.

    There’s great job security when you’re the offspring of the GM.

  239. Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    tony,

    That’s just Olney speculating. As usual his speculation makes no sense whatsoever.

  240. DaSaint007 December 10th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
    Joba as a mediocre starter is still>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Joba as a reliever.

    Do you realize how much mediocre starters get on the open market? Randy Wolf is just one in a line many who get 10+ million a year.

    For 10-12 million a year you can sign two set up men and still have money left over.
    ———————————————————–
    This is the point that many don’t grasp.
    The Randy Wolf, Derek Lowe’s of the world are well paid for what they offer. Joba is much more valuable as a cost-controlled starter than as a reliever (see Bruney, Farnsworth, Dotel, etc., etc., etc.)

    Oh, and one more thing. If Mariano can continue to save 30-40 games a year for 3 more years, better believe it will be in a Yankee uniform. Forget about Joba or whomever as successor. Worry about that when it happens.

  241. JeterJobaCanoFan2010 December 10th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    Hooray to Champ 809 for his his great summary of Joba’s Yankee career. I would toss in the 1-0 win over Beckett in Boston in 08. His 13 SO’s in 09. Striking out Miguel Cabrera to end a potential big inning. Ya-ll can’t deny that he had some great games this season proving that he has a golden arm and is worthy of the praise given him in 07 and 08. Anyhow, here is a repost:

    JeterJobaCanoFan2010
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
    Dang! Didn’t realize that so many fans dislike Melky. Didn’t Melky just play CF in the WS. And who won? He is younger than Gardner and to me is the better player. I agree with the poster who said that Gardner is AAA.

    Now for the Joba – Hughes debate. I am a very firm believer in Joba as a starter. Now all of a sudden he is considered a reliever because he was in the BP for the playoffs and WS? i can post the article from last summer when Cashman said emphactically that Joba is a starter. No, he won’t go back in the bp. If they had limited his IP early in the season they may not have had to go with 3 pitchers. That last bit about 3 innings, then 4 then 5 was all wrong.

    Hughes was in the bp most of the season and did an excellent job – except for the WS where he just plain choked. Joe went with Joba before he did Hughes. So that makes Joba the better reliever material for 2010? Wrong.. Joba is the better pitcher both in the rotation and bp. You take a starter and put him in the pen, of course, he will do well.

    This Joba v. Hughes is just plain b.s. The Yankees should just let the two pitch in the rotation because isn’t that what the development was for? If they bomb – they bomb. But if they both succeed then the Yankees have 2 HOME GROWN pitchers to dominate for the next decade.

    . . . .NYYROC
    December 10th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
    Please go back and read NYYRoc’s post. It may change your mind.

    GB: Is this enough to make you cranky?? I can try harder.

  242. rodg12 December 10th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    Joe Vogel -
    I’m from Iowa too (also live here currently). What town?

  243. randy l. December 10th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    “He’ll bite your arm off and smile as he chews it right in front of you…”

    joe vogel-

    that’s unless gb7 forgets to put his teeth in and and then he just gums you to death.

  244. Doreen December 10th, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    Actually Joba to the pen in ’07 wasn’t even really an experiment, per se. That would insinuate that they had plans for Joba to be in the pen at some point going forward. Joba in the pen in ’07 was an emergency response to having exactly ZERO set-up men at the time, and Joba could throw heat. He was successful and electric in that role.

    It was a HUGE mistake! :lol:

  245. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    rodg12
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
    Joe Vogel -
    I’m from Iowa too (also live here currently). What town?

    Des Moines. Used to be Coralville/Iowa City but my wife ended up in med school. She’s from Carroll originally, Churdan myself.

  246. GreenBeret7 December 10th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    randy l.
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
    “He’ll bite your arm off and smile as he chews it right in front of you…”

    joe vogel-

    that’s unless gb7 forgets to put his teeth in and and then he just gums you to death.

    ————————————————————

    If you wake up tomorrow and there’s a parakeet head in your bed…..it was a mob hit.

  247. Rocky December 10th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    Thank you Doreen !

  248. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    If you wake up tomorrow and there’s a parakeet head in your bed…..it was a mob hit.

    From Bensonhurst or the southside of Des Moines.

  249. rodg12 December 10th, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    I live in Marshalltown. Grew up in Garwin (small town outside Mtown). You play in the summer wood bat league around CR when you were in IC/Coralville?

  250. mick December 10th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    Joba has been a dominant STARTING PITCHER his ENTIRE life playing the game,lil league-minors he’s been a DOMINANT STARTER.
    ———————————————————–
    Until Joba shows he can get Major League hitters out on a consistent basis,”lil league-minors” do not matter.
    Wherever he helps the team and fits in comfortably is where we want him.

    He was a success in the majors as a reliever before he ever started, so as far as I am concerned he has been a better reliever than a starter in the MAJORS.

  251. Doreen December 10th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    By the way, just for the record, I’d want Joba as a starter. I think, given the chance and provided he comes into camp in shape, he will be what he’s been expected to be. It just takes time and patience. Not something found in abundance in these parts. :)

    I just think the Yankees are looking at all their options.

  252. Rocky December 10th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    Maybe we can bring back Scott Proctor or Octavio Dotel for the 8th inning. We really didn’t get going last year until we had a reliable setup guy.

  253. Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    rodg12
    December 10th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
    I live in Marshalltown. Grew up in Garwin (small town outside Mtown). You play in the summer wood bat league around CR when you were in IC/Coralville?

    Not in IA City, but I do play in the central IA league (the one founded I believe by former pitcher Jim Barr). Last summer I played in an 18+ aluminum bat (as a catcher!) and a 35+ wood league (I’m 34). The former is much more competitive and fun. Been playing off and on since ’98 depending upon work and school.

  254. randy l. December 10th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    “If you wake up tomorrow and there’s a parakeet head in your bed…..it was a mob hit.”

    gb7-

    now you’re crossing a line.

    what’s the name of that hospital you’re in in tampa?

    tell me and i’m sending transcripts of your descriptions of the nurses to the hospital website.

    we’ll see what tune you’re singing when they get creative.

  255. rodg12 December 10th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    Joe Vogel December 10th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    Not in IA City, but I do play in the central IA league (the one founded I believe by former pitcher Jim Barr). Last summer I played in an 18+ aluminum bat (as a catcher!) and a 35+ wood league (I’m 34). The former is much more competitive and fun. Been playing off and on since ‘98 depending upon work and school.

    I played a summer in that wood bat league around CR when I was still in College. Have a few college teammates that still play in that. Pretty much just slow-pitch softball for me these days. Played in a big tourney in Carroll last summer, actually.

  256. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 10th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    new thread btw

  257. henryst December 10th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

    What is so radically different between the way Joba would pitch innings 1 and 2, and the way he would pitch innings 7 and 8, that would wreck his career if he was put back in the bullpen to do the latter?

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