Kroenke gets second Rule 5 chance
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 10, 2009 
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For the second time in as many years, Zach Kroenke is a Rule 5 pick suddenly lifted out of the Yankees organization. The Diamondbacks drafted him sixth and felt lucky to get him that low.
As a second-time draftee, Kroenke has options. The best-case scenario is making the Arizona bullpen, but if the Diamondbacks don’t keep him, Kroenke can elect free agency rather than return to the Yankees minor league system.
“I’ve talked to my agent about it,” Kroenke said from his snow-covered home in Nebraska. “We’re trying not to mention it. It’s probably bad luck. We’ll take it as it comes, see what the Yankees say if that comes. I’ve always enjoyed being with the Yankees.”
There were rumors that the Yankees might take Kroenke with the first pick, use him as a replacement for Phil Coke, and Kroenke was excited by that possibility. But Arizona isn’t a bad situation for him. The Diamondbacks just traded one of their top young left-handed relievers in the Curtis Granderson deal, and they currently have only one other lefty who seems likely to open with the big league club. that lefty, Clay Zavada, is a changeup pitcher who’s been tougher on right-handed hitters than left-handed hitters.
“They assured me that I’d get a better shot with them,” Kroenke said. “Not like I did with the Marlins.”
Florida took Kroenke in last year’s Rule 5 but hardly used him in spring training. He threw a bunch of bullpens, got into two games and was offered back to the Yankees. He became Scranton/Wilkes-Barre’s Pitcher of the Year, but remained overshadowed by Coke and hard-throwing Mike Dunn. Kroenke didn’t get a call-up in September, wasn’t added to the 40-man in November and now he’ll try to take advantage of his big league opportunity with the Diamondbacks.
“It’s one of those things where you want to stay even keel,” he said. “You can’t put too much of yourself, too much emotion out there into it. You just have to stay focused. Just take a little page out of the front office’s book, just call it business. You come out and try to do your job and exceed expectations.”
Joba as a mediocre starter is still>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Joba as a reliever.
Do you realize how much mediocre starters get on the open market? Randy Wolf is just one in a line many who get 10+ million a year.
For 10-12 million a year you can sign two set up men and still have money left over.
There I said it: Joba as a 4th starter is more valuable to the Yankees than Joba as the 8th inning guy.
The real name of SJ44 is Joe Casale.
That’s like Fight Club.
His name is Joe Casale.
His name is Joe Casale.
His name…
Good luck to Zack.
At least Kennedy and Zack will have a friendly face when they hit camp.
Martha Stewart
December 10th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
The real name of SJ44 is Joe Casale.
———–
False.
Joseph Randazzo.
NJ.
Hey Martha,
Give it a rest. Big deal you know his real name. You’re a frickin’ genius.
Anyone who has been on the blog as long as most of us have know what SJ’s real name and credentials are.
Can’t believe it’s that important to you to post it several times in the past few hours.
You’re a real Woodward and Bernstein.
Now go make a centerpiece out of toilet paper or something.
So, as long as the next step is not ready to happen, what do we think the Yanks will do? I see five options:
1. Two medium priced hitters, say Damon/Matsui, or Cameron/Matsui, or [your favorite OF here/your favorite DH here];
2. One high priced hitter (Matt Holliday);
3. One hitter, one starting pitcher, Joba or Phil moved to set-up man in the pen, say Damon/Sheets, Cameron/Sheets; or
4. Halladay and call it a day.
5. Something else.
In order, I’m thinking 1, 3, 4, 5, 2.
I think that’s what the Yanks should do as well, so I’m biased.
SJ used his real name on Mike Silva’s “ny baseball digest” radio show he’s not hiding anything.
get a life.
My ideal plan for the Yankees is to bring back Damon and Matsui at team friendly short term deals and make a run at Sheets if he’s healthy.
I’m against paying twice for Doc right now although I think before all is said and done any deal for him will go through the Yankees.
If Sheets is healthy though, I let Phil and Joba battle it out in the spring for the 5th spot. Loser sets up for Mo.
Our pen would be loaded and our rotation would be stacked in that scenario.
“Attention Halladay Shoppers!At least a half-dozen teams are in the hunt, but Toronto’s asking price for Roy Halladay remains high.”
This was the tease that led to this article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4729494
I thought the hook was clever.
“My ideal plan for the Yankees is to bring back Damon and Matsui at team friendly short term deals and make a run at Sheets if he’s healthy.”
I was assuming the Yanks didn’t have the budget to do all three. If they do, sounds good.
In a surprise twist, it has been revealed that GB7′s real name is Gabrielle Bonet.
G. Love
December 10th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
My ideal plan for the Yankees is to bring back Damon and Matsui at team friendly short term deals and make a run at Sheets if he’s healthy.
********************
Sounds good to me!
I think the Yanks are gonna sit back for a few days and see what comes to them.
“Martha Stewart” = ok, well done, what’s your point?
Some kind of weird stalking going on here?
SJ, Joe, whatever = he’s the best poster on here, no offence randy, nick, et al.
He’s certainly given a lot more than you have. Give it a rest.
Nick with the Deus ex machina.
Wave Your Hat,
Option 2 but I’m biased. I want option 2 to happen.
I didn’t think this was all a big mystery since half the people on this blog know me and have heard me on a number of different shows.
But, hey, if it makes somebody’s day to think they solved some mystery, its all good. Its the holliday season! lol
Wave,
I know this much about the Yankee budget; No one ever knows what it is.
If, for some reason, they are fixed on keeping it under 200 million, then no, they can’t get all 3 of those players.
However, I think Damon will cost in the 10 million range, Hideki in the 7 million and Sheets in the 10 million range before all is said and done.
So 27 million for a LF, DH and starter.
That payroll would exceed the 200 million threshold, but all those players would be short term deals so the team maintains flexibility and continuity in Damon and Matsui’s case.
I think our best lineup has Damon and Matsui in it with Granderson now.
I hope they make it happen since I love both those guys. They are both talented and they are both clutch.
“My name is my name!” – Marlo Stanfield
Kroenke is awesome, he’ll be good with whoever takes him.
“In a surprise twist, it has been revealed that GB7’s real name is Gabrielle Bonet.”
Really? I thought he was Gerard Butler from the movie 300.
Just wanted to mention that I enjoy these personal interviews you have with the minor leaguers, Chad. It’s something nice that we never had here before, and I’d venture to say that most beat writers who cover the big league team and have their own blogs don’t do much of this. It obviously comes from your time with that team but hopefully you can keep some sort of relationship with the triple A team and players so we can continue to have this. Keep up the good work!
There is no hard/fast budget. We already know that the Yanks would prefer to keep it under $200, but I think it’s been pretty well-established that the budget is flexible when it comes to players they want.
Actually, I have no idea what SJ’s real name is – he never revealed it. I’m fine with that -
I’m also curious to see if the Yankees target Ryan Doumit for DH and more importantly to add more depth at catcher. Cervelli is could flounder. I like him, but Doumit would be nice to have around as insurance, not to mention a great hitter for DH.
I really hate the idea of a competition between Joba and Phil. First off, Joba will have the advantage because he’s been a starter. Phil got by with 2 pitches last year – a cutter and FB (I guess that’s 1 pitch, really). He gave up his curve for the most part and forget his change. ST is supposed to be a time for him to work on these things. If he’s trying to beat Joba, there is no way he can do that…. I think it would be a terrible decision (for both of them actually…but still, more so for Phil). If you put Phil in the pen now, then IMO, you might as well trade him. It’s clear teams value him (maybe even more than Joba) and you could buld a deal around him. He’s going to be 24 next year. If he stays in the pen in 2010, he will have worse innings limits in 2011 than he would have this year. Again, I would rather see Phil traded for something (or sent to AAA, but that’s not happening) than to see him in the pen.
wait! I am Joe Casale!
The bench next year will be some combination of
Russo, Cervelli, Pena, Melky, Gardner, Hoffmann
I like that. Lots of youth and versatility.
Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench)
December 10th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
wait! I am Joe Casale!
*******************
Uncle E, are you having an identiy crisis?
I am Sparticus!
Hughes outperformed Joba last year in ST. Why is it unrealistic that he will do it again? Of course, Joba was out of shape last Spring and was virtually guaranteed a spot in the rotation, but still… Hughes looked good.
Agreed…SJ44 is one of the best posters here.
Without him and a select few of others, this place would fall apart (at least the comment portion).
I think a competition is the best way to go. Don’t guarantee either a spot and let the best man win. Signing Sheets enables them to do that.
Joba needs something to motivate him, let’s see if a competition does it. You know Hughes will be motivated.
Mike,
I like the bench as well.
Wave Your Hat
Do you think the Yankees should give up Joba to the Jays and extend Roy? If so, then maybe that’s an option.
There’s enough money left for Roy as the needed SP, Doumit as the DH/OF/third string catcher and Aroldis Chapman.
Can any team offer the Jays a better prospect at the center of a trade package than Joba?
If Damon signs with the Yankees, either Brett or Melky is a goner. Reports have the Royals interested in Brett. OK…but what’s he worth? I figure he’s worth a LOOGY, which may be what the Yanks are looking for as a replacement for Coke. Do the Royals have a LOOGY to offer? I can’t think of one.
On the other hand, the Cubs are looking for a CF and, reportedly, like Melky. Sean Marshall pitched pretty well in relief last year–maybe, finally, finding his niche. A Melky for Marshall deal would be pretty fair.
Mets finally get off the mat and sign FA lefty, Geoffrey Sarnataro. Might help them a bit
I didn’t say it before, but SJ’s posts are the ones I look forward most to reading, especially when I have questions about how processes work. I’ve no idea what his connections are, but I trust him absolutely.
I wonder just how serious the Yankees are with Sheets – I get the idea that they aren’t. Sheets in Wrigley Field? Hmmm
The only Royal I’d want on the Yanks is Joakim Soria. That’s a pipe dream though.
I think the big problem is that the Yankees expected much more of Joba last year. After his showing in 08 where he was so dominant, they probably expected him to continue his progression as a starter to the point where he would be a known entity this Spring without a real ‘cap’. That way, they could afford to live through Hughes’ growing pains because Joba would be able to hold his own spot down.
But Joba regressed last year. Save for 3 starts after the ASB, his season was a huge disappointment. He lost velocity, his control was dreadful, he was out of shape, Eliand/Girardi were very frustrated with him, he didn’t listen to Posada, and he didn’t seem to learn anything and just went in circles start after start.
Now, Joba might be even more of a question mark than Hughes is, and I’m sure Cashman thought that would not be the case. How can you have Hughes AND Joba in the rotation when both are question marks? If one doesn’t work out, who do we go to? Gaudin?
more people need to be aboard the Lackey train. I wasn’t at first but i have really warmed up to the idea. Give him AJ’s contract, move Joba to the pen for the season at least, quite possibly for good. We need another bridge at this point.
As for Gardner, maybe they can get a versatile utility player for him since Ramiro Pena might not be ready. I think of Pena more as a player who adds depth to the minors. Maybe the Royals have a solid utility guy?
Its the holliday season! lol
——————————Isn’t that holiday? Or is it Halladay?
Heyman on Francessa -
The price for Halladay is outrageous… Toronto is asking for the moon. Thinks this thing is going to a drag out a long time.
SJ, we may have gone over this before, but on another board I visit, the fans think the Sox stole Max Ramirez – they think he’s an outstanding prospect. What do you think?
Bret-
I don’t like the idea of getting Halladay, because I think the Yanks need at least one more outfielder and I don’t think they’ll get one if they do a Halladay deal. IMO, Doc will absorb all the Yanks’ remaining budget if the Yanks get him.
Lets just say Joba never progresses past being a number 3 or 4 starter:
Number 3 or 4 starters on the open market cost $10-12 million.
You put Joba in the bullpen you have to replace him in the rotation. To do that would cost $10-12 million.
Marte costs the Yankees $4 million a year, Mike Gonzalez will probably cost someone $4 million a year (or even Soriano would have cost 3-4 mill a year b/c if he thought he could get more he would not have accepted arbitration)
For $10-12 million you have two set-up men (Marte + Gonzalez/Soriano), Joba in the rotation, and $2-3 million more to spend on lets say Carlos Delgado.
Now folks:
Is Joba in the bullpen + insert name of mediocre free agent pitcher
greater than
Joba in the rotation + Marte + Gonzalez/Soriano + Delgado?
In conclusion, as long as Brian Cashman is calling the shots he will never do something as stupid as putting Joba in the bullpen.
It has been revealed today that popular LoHud commenter CB is, in fact, former Sleater-Kinney guitarist/singer Carrie Brownstein.
http://tinyurl.com/yg9z8b3
Greatest Ever
I’m with you on the whole Lackey thing.He’s can handle the Al East and wouldn’t cost hughes,joba and or montero
btw I’m Roger Moore
Mets signed who??
Never heard of Sarnataro. Who was he with?
#3
Towers to help evaluate Chapman
Hughes to the pen
Wang to a minor league deal
Trade Gardner
lose Mitre
Keep Melky
Boston Dave – XXVII
December 10th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Agreed…SJ44 is one of the best posters here.
Without him and a select few of others, this place would fall apart (at least the comment portion).
————————————————————
You can’t include Randy in that select group of posters. The only thing he contributes are his boastful stories of his golfing exploits. I’m here to tell you that Randy is to golfing as Tiger Woods is to celibacy.
hockey puck
I am the one and only Erica
(Finished a major crisis… being a rebel and celebrating on LoHud)
Hughes should be given a chance to start.
Roger Moore,
exactamundo…
Plus we know what Lackey can do on the big stage. I don’t question Halladay would be a great postseason pitcher, but why trade all of that talent when Lackey has already proven he is the goods.
At this stage, I want him. I don’t care about Holliday, Damon, Matsui, anyone else. I want Lackey.
Given the ecomomic conditions what they are, Brian Cashman did well at the winter meeting and enough to grade his report card an “A”.
The Granderson deal and Pettitte signing opened doors for things to come.
SJ posts lots of fact here – lots of great information. And he’s extremely helpful and is very willing to share his knowledge and feel for the business of baseball, and that is greatly appreciated and has added value to this blog, imo.
Like the rest of us, though, SJ also has opinions that he posts. Some I agree with, some not. I don’t see this as a problem. Honest disagreement can lead to great discussions.
We all get our backs up every once in a while over some disagreement or other with one poster or another.
This is tantamount to when Deep Throat revealed his identity.
If Joba projects best as a guy in the bullpen, that’s where he is going to go.
Last night on the MLB Network, for the first time publicly (even though privately they have felt this way), Cashman was very clear that putting Joba in the pen was not out of the question.
Some guys are just better out of the pen than in the rotation. Joba may be one of those guys.
My guess is, this ST we will know for sure.
Betsy.
Max Ramirez is a poor defensive catcher and a good hitter. At least he was before suffering a serious wrist injury, requiring surgery, which ended his season last year.
A lot of teams see him more as a f1B/DH than a catcher.
The Sox didn’t “steal” anything. They are paying 9-10 of Lowell’s salary for a guy who is a AAA player (at best) right now.
That’s a pretty big price to pay. Especially since it places more dead money on the books.
Andrew
December 10th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
This is tantamount to when Deep Throat revealed his identity.
****************
LOL
Wave,
Getting Halladay would definitely put a dent in the offense but it’d make the pitching tops in baseball.
Like I said, I think the Yankees have a good relationship with the Pirates and could get Doumit in that lineup.
If they lose Damon and Mastui and replace them with Granderson and Doumit, they can still be a WS caliber team, especially with Halladay.
The OF’s would be Melky, Granderson, Swisher, Gardner and Hoffman. Even Doumit can play a little RF.
Andrew
December 10th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
This is tantamount to when Deep Throat revealed his identity.
Linda Lovelace or Harry Reems?
Deep Throat?????
http://www.filmdope.com/Galler.....93-470.gif
I’d also be interested in any info at all on Max Ramirez, as I really haven’t seen any analysis at all of that trade aside from how much of the Lowell contract the Sox would be eating. How does he fit into their plans? Does anyone think he has any shot at playing 1st, and moving Youk to 3rd? I honestly know nothing at all about the guy.
“wait! I am Joe Casale!”
I loved you in the Deer Hunter. What’s Meryl Streep like? Oh, wait. That’s John.
“Really? I thought he was Gerard Butler from the movie 300. ”
I thought he was the real Greg Brady.
So this coming spring training decides wether or not Chamberlain is finished as a Yankee starter ?
Since my prospect knowledge is limited, not sure why the NYY passed on Kroencke – essentially twice – if he was so highly thought of at SWB.
Especially after trading Coke, they must think higher of Dunn, who, from little I saw, is a work in progress.
Its hard to get a feel on what the Red Sox are doing.
Eating that much money on Lowell’s contract is going to affect them in other areas.
They sign Marco Scutaro who is basically a utility player coming off a career year. He also has a chronic foot problem that flares up and causes him to play hurt a lot.
I don’t know if that’s my ideal candidate for a starting SS.
Personally, I would have just re-signed Alex Gonzalez.
They would prefer to Jason Bay but don’t want to go over 4 years because they have concerns about his shoulder and knee.
If somebody else offers Bay 5 years, they are in a bind.
They don’t want to have to need Matt Holliday because if they do, Scott Boras will rake them over the coals.
They are also talking about adding Adrian Beltre to play third.
I’ve never seen Beltre as a winning player. I would have just kept Mike Lowell, who fit their team like a glove.
They have a weird vibe going on up there right now.
Hard to get a feel at how they want to construct their club.
i’m not me.
I will go on record as saying that any team that wants to take catchers away from the Pirates has my full support! lol
John Cazale appeared in five full-length feature films while alive, plus a sixth using archival footage after his death. All six films were nominated for the Academy Award for Best Picture. Three of the films won the Award: The Godfather, The Godfather Part II, and The Deer Hunter. Wiki
wow
you broke my heart, Fredo
I don’t understand how Melky and Damon are mutually exclusive?
Please explain, anyone.
John Cazale was an amazing actor. He had such a ridiculous stretch of good movies & good performances in the 70s. So sad that he was gone so young and his career ended so abruptly.
Also, as of 1:00 today the Lowell trade hasn’t been completed:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....8;c_id=mlb
Apparently, the gun was jumped a bit. However, I kind of hope this does happen, Max Ramirez shouldn’t make an impact anytime soon, if ever, and Lowell is a major pain to the Yankees. The name I have heard as a replacement is Beltre. If Boston thinks they are going to get anything more out of him than Seattle did, I think they are dreaming.
I was who they thought I was.
Who’s been picking on SJ?
Uncle Ellsworth (content to be on the Group W bench)
December 10th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
John Cazale appeared in five full-length feature films while alive, plus a sixth using archival footage after his death. All six films were nominated for the Academy Award for Best Picture. Three of the films won the Award: The Godfather, The Godfather Part II, and The Deer Hunter. Wiki
wow
you broke my heart, Fredo
The Conversation is still my favorite.
SJ44
December 10th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
If Joba projects best as a guy in the bullpen, that’s where he is going to go.
————————
Like I said before you hit the nail on the head pretty much every time, but this does not make sense at all as I explained above.
If he projects best in the bullpen they will trade him. The idea is to make the team better not fit guys in certain places because they are better suited for that role.
In terms of making the Yankees a better team:
Keeping Joba as a starter even if ends up being only average>trading him because he still has a lot of value>Joba in the bullpen
I would really like you to explain to me how that is not right and Joba in the bullpen is the best option.
Lowell > Beltre
Probably another instance of RS “leaking” to the press before checking with Lowell, who has a NTC
I actually am ‘Bret’.
Let the Sox or Angels pay $12 million for Ben Sheets.
Incentive laden deal similar to Pettitte 09. That resulted in 14 wins and 3 playoff wins.
Doesn’t like it, go with Joba/Hughes, which is better than Joba/XXXX of 09, so you’ve improved your club.
If they’re going reclamation with Sheets, why not just tender Wang?
He was Meryl Streep’s boyfriend (they were going to get married) before he was diagnosed with terminal cancer.
Great actor.
“you broke my heart, Fredo”
Greatest resume ever. It’s kind of like if Sandy Koufax only pitched ’61-’66.
Sue Boreman (Linda Lovelace) went to the same high school I did.
The nuns were still praying for her years later when I went there.
Over the past few years I’ve come to the conclusion that SJ just simply views the game from the Owners box…I think he’s still has partnership in some Minor League affiliates……So he does have a sharpness at times which intimdates some….CB, views the game from The GM perspective, and many of us look at the game as former grunt ballplayers…..So it’s a mixed bag of nuts here, however it’s the best Yabkee Site around…….
Boston would have been better off by dumping Ortiz and installing Lowell as their main DH. He may have lost mobility at third, but, in that park, he was a dangerous hitter, and pretty good hitter on the road. Especially against the Yankees.
“I actually am ‘Bret’.”
I actually am “Vin.” Although some people call me “Vincent,” “Vince,” or “Vinny.” I have the most flexible name ever.
Lowell’s offense might take a hit in Texas. How many of his hits were off of the wall at that dump Fenway? Arlington is a hitter’s park so it will be interesting to see how he does.
Some guys are just better out of the pen than in the rotation. Joba may be one of those guys.
—————————
There is probably not a single starter in baseball who would not be better in the pen.
Breaking news – sources say that randy l is the online alias of Randy Levine. His hatred of Brian Cashman is suddenly so clear.
Speaking of Wang, if/when he is non-tendered, I would not be surprised in the least to see the Cards take a flier on him (reclammation projects in lieu of any attempts at real player development the last few seasons). This of course is completely speculative BS sprayed into the blogosphere where it will hopefully incubate and reproduce like amoeba until it becomes a full-fledged rumor.
SJ,
Where does the nephew start next season? Lynchburg? Did he get a ST invite (I believe he wanted that to be part of his deal)?
Vin,
My friend Vinny bought tix to the WS final game. He paid $450 per ticket and said it was worth it. Big time Yankees fan. Many of my friends are.
Lowell has no trade protection. Never considered that. That could make things interesting.
They didn’t go through all that trouble to put Joba back in the bullpen after 1 year. Not going to happen.
Joba and Hughes will both be starters next year in the rotation. Neither will have that prohibitive of an innings limit and we’ll see what they can do without restrictions.
If they don’t believe Joba is able to maintain velocity, stuff and aggressiveness over 200 innings, and feel he is better suited for the bullpen, he goes to the bullpen.
Perhaps that’s why his name, and not Hughes, has been dangled in the Halladay talks.
Unlike other teams though, the Yankees can afford to carry Joba in the pen for the next 3 years and groom him as Mariano’s replacement because they won’t care about his arbitration number.
Its the benefits of having deep financial pockets.
I’m not saying that’s what they will do.
I am saying that last night, for the first time publicly, Brian Cashman acknowledged the possibility that Joba could wind up in the bullpen.
Since Cashman doesn’t say anything flip publicly, its pretty clear they are discussing it internally.
Its probably going to be determined as much by who they add to the starting rotation as it will anything else.
If Heyman is correct, then it’s too the Yankees advantage that the Jays are asking for the sun, moon and stars…..except for the fact that teams are going to need to upgrade their pitching before ST and can’t afford to wait that long.
“I would not be surprised in the least to see the Cards take a flier on him (reclammation projects in lieu of any attempts at real player development the last few seasons). ”
Makes some sense – Dave Duncan has made a career of turning reclamation projects into useful pitchers.
In a different way, he’s this decade’s Leo Mazzone.
Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Breaking news – sources say that randy l is the online alias of Randy Levine. His hatred of Brian Cashman is suddenly so clear.
LMAO
GreenBeret7
December 10th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Boston would have been better off by dumping Ortiz and installing Lowell as their main DH. He may have lost mobility at third, but, in that park, he was a dangerous hitter, and pretty good hitter on the road. Especially against the Yankees.
Who’s gonna take his crappy contract? I think their stuck with him until the end of this season and they’ll dump the option like a hot potato.
SJ44
Are you a hacker type
low level programmer?
I still think it’s too early to say that Joba is more suited for the pen. I’d like for him to arrive in spring training in good shape and ready to go. He is finally free of the “Joba Rules” so we finally get to see him with no innings limits. I think that’s part of the key for him to succeed. No more jerking him around, it’s time to cut it loose.
I feel with the restrictions lifted, Joba can be a successful starter and at this point I think he’s earned the right to prove it.
SJ44
The RS fans don’t know what’s going on either.
Starting to be panic in the streets.
Listening to local sports radio it sounds like it may affect ticket sales.
“They didn’t go through all that trouble to put Joba back in the bullpen after 1 year. Not going to happen.”
They may not have a choice. It depends on who they land as a starter.
The Conversation is a great movie – I agree
Joba may have his pre-injury velo back this season. Coney said it would take about that long. I have a feeling if we bring another pitcher in, and still have Joba, once we get to ST, Joba and Hughes will have profitted so much from their experiences that they’ll both look ready to be long term rotation fixtures.
“My name is my name!” – Marlo Stanfield”
This is excellent.
I’d say the odds both Hughes and Chamberlain are in the starting rotation next year is less than 50%.
The last time they went with 2 kids in the rotation, it was a disaster. I don’t think they are making the same mistake again unless they can’t add another arm to the mix.
Vin,
The Pirates moved their High A affiliate to Bradenton of the Florida State League for 2010. He will start the season in Bradenton.
ST invite is supposed to happen. We haven’t yet had official word it will at this time.
We should know more after the hollidays.
The Yankees open their ST schedule March 3 in Tampa against the Pirates. It would be great if he got some time in that game.
I just can’t fathom the Yankees will go through this offseason coming off a WS championship in the new stadium and do nothing momentous.
I don’t know what it is but I’m starting to feel that the Yankees will trade Joba in a deal for Halladay and sell high before the league realizes his limitations as a starter.
I believe that would force the Yankees to go with a cheap solution for DH even if they sign Halladay to a back-loaded extension with a dollar amount for the 2010 season lower than his current money owed for the upcoming year.
How many people honestly believe the Yankees won’t do something huge?
rodg12
December 10th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Patrick the Prospect Hugger December 10th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Breaking news – sources say that randy l is the online alias of Randy Levine. His hatred of Brian Cashman is suddenly so clear.
LMAO
If “Randy” is truly Randy Levine he should immediately be strapped to a chair, his eyes should be propped open with Pez tablets, and a continuous reel of highlights from the 1989-1990 Yankees’ seasons should be screened 18-24″ from his grill ala A Clockwork Orange.
If not, best wishes and peace brother.
Let’s Go -
Imagine trying to determine Chamberlain’s long-term fate with just 1 more spring training ? He has four pitches working right now. As many have said before, his biggest problems seem to be conditioning and stubborness. Why not send him to athlete’s performance ? Kind of do a pitcher’s version of Cano on him ? The guy has great upside as a starter and they spent all of last year getting him ready to be a full season starter. It’s too soon to quit on him as a starter imho. 1 more season required to know.
if NY did not trade for Santana, why on Earth would they part with Montero, etc for Halladay, with the Giant killer John Lackey available.
Well if the Yankees sign Sheets… that would take them out of Halladay.
Unless they use Hughes in the deal or send Hughes AND Joba to the pen next year (assuming neither gets traded).
Cash has to decide which is more realistic– the Jays lowering their demands or the ability to sign Sheets.
Lately, I am wrapped up in random-access data mining in python, but in my spare time I am studying obj-c working on iphone apps. (directly related to MLB).
SJ44
December 10th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
If they don’t believe Joba is able to maintain velocity, stuff and aggressiveness over 200 innings, and feel he is better suited for the bullpen, he goes to the bullpen.
Perhaps that’s why his name, and not Hughes, has been dangled in the Halladay talks.
Unlike other teams though, the Yankees can afford to carry Joba in the pen for the next 3 years and groom him as Mariano’s replacement because they won’t care about his arbitration number.
Its the benefits of having deep financial pockets.
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I think the fact that they are dangling his name for Halladay shows that he would be more valuable as a trade chip than in the bullpen (if they do not think he is a starter)
The Yankees have deep pockets but I find it hard to believe that they will be willing to pay 9-12 million in the last couple years of arbitration for him to be a set up guy. That is just too much money for the 8th inning even for the Yankees and that money could be used so much better in other places.
Finally, like I said before if they do “groom” him to succeed Mo, by the time he takes over at closer he will be a free agent. Therefore he has no more value to the Yankees than any other free agent closer who would be on the market that year. If the Yankees are so desperate they think Joba is the only option to succeed Mo, then they will just sign him as a free agent.
Joba’s limitation as a starter was his injury related loss of velo. He still threw strikes with 4 different pitches, but they were sitting on his suddenly average fastball and hoping he’d hang sliders. We’ll see what he looks like with if his velo comes back.
The problem is, while going with both Joba and Phil as starters has the highest upside in terms of results per dollar spent, it also has the greatest risk. Getting a guy like Sheets is a strong, though pricey, way to limit the risk.
But if Sheets comes at the risk of not getting two more hitters, that’s a risk too.
It’s a balanced argument which will allow us to argue about it without resolution until Cashman makes the next move.
The Yankees are the only thing that keeps me from imploding from an infinite loop.
If he projects best in the bullpen they will trade him. The idea is to make the team better not fit guys in certain places because they are better suited for that role.
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I don’t understand. If he projects better in the bullpen, why not leave him there where he will be a valuable part of the team.
Will another championship with him in the pen convince you?
It all depends how badly Cashman wants Sheets. If we get Sheets, that would pretty much take us out of the running for Doc. But can the Yanks afford to wait on Halladay when there is no guarantee his price ever drops and miss out on a potential big time arm like Sheets that can be had for an incentive deal? Again, it all depends how highly Cashman is on Sheets. He loved him last year, but we have not heard much buzz this year aside from the fact that we’re one of the teams that his agent has met with, among several teams.
I think acquiring an all star CF is pretty momentus.
Especially when most of the other teams seem to be stuck in neutral for various (mostly financial) reasons.
Why would the Yankees go outside the organization to find Mo’s replacement if they feel Joba is that guy?
One would think that if they put Joba in the pen this year, its to groom him to replace Mo.
Its nice to have options though. Something the Red Sox don’t have with their young arms at this time.
“How many people honestly believe the Yankees won’t do something huge”
Hey Bret … they wont do something huge just for the sake of doing something huge.
I think the Yankees could still get Halladay, but it will have to be a scenario like Johan Santana where the market collapes and the Blue Jays are forced to make a deal for a fraction of the cost they are currenntly holding up teams for.
If teams like the Phillies, Angels, Mets, Red Sox are all making other deals and Halladay continues to be on the market, then that plays into the Yankees hands because they can wait for the Blue Jays to come to them. But as long as a team is thinking about trading high end talent AND willing to offer Halladay an extention, then the “big deal” you think will happen this off-season will not be for him.
“I’d say the odds both Hughes and Chamberlain are in the starting rotation next year is less than 50%.
The last time they went with 2 kids in the rotation, it was a disaster. I don’t think they are making the same mistake again unless they can’t add another arm to the mix”
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SJ: would still rather they take this direction. On that note, will Zach McCallister have receive a chance with NYY (as a starter) or is he just walking trade-bait ?
Here’s something totally off topic. If I was TOR, I would seriously consider offering Vernon Wells a buyout. They are never going to be able to trade him; no one is taking that contract. It doesn’t appear that he’s ever going to live up to it. The TOR fans hate him and boo him constantly. He can’t possibly be happy there. Why don’t they [TOR] do what LAD did with Andruw Jones and see if they can get him to accept a buyout?
From his perspective, it would allow him to move on and sign a contract with a team that 1)wants him and 2)doesn’t make him feel so much under pressure to perform. Yes, by doing this, he’s walking away from guaranteed money; lots of it in fact. But I’d like to think that the guy has some self respect and would want to earn his way through the game instead of being the contract laughing stock of the league. Just a thought.
interesting that other GM’s haven’t been asking for David Robertson in respective trade talks (if indeed is the case). There loss is our gain.
Because by the time Mo retires, Joba will be a free agent. So whether he is home grown or not does not matter one bit. If he is bound to be a great closer he can do that anywhere. Why not capitalize on your valuable resource now and then sign Joba or some other free agent closer when Mo retires.
SJ,
How much of Joba’s issues as a starter do you think are related to his conditioning (or lack thereof)? Even early in the season when he was successful and out of the bullpen during the playoffs he just didn’t have the quality of stuff we’ve seen from him in the past. I think (hope) his problem is more a combo of conditioning & mechanics than his role. He did demonstrate pretty consistent velocity as a starter in the minors didn’t he?
Laura,
They can’t do buyouts. The players association would never allow it.
Only thing they could do is release him and keep paying him.
Buyouts aren’t allowed under the CBA.
Vinny,
I think McAllister starts the year in AAA and they like him a lot.
It falls under the axiom, you can never have enough pitching. If he pitches well, he pitches himself into the mix.
However, for the right price, EVERYBODY is available.
Its the only way a GM can do his job properly.
My real name is Joey Joe Joe Jr Shabadoo.
I don’t get what Boston is trying to accomplish by trading Lowell if they end up paying 3/4 of his salary. Why not just keep him for one more year at 12M and spend their money on a LFer. Its not like there’s a big market out there for 3B either and Beltre is not that much better/cheaper than Lowell. I guess it could be that they really want to move Youk to 3B so that Martinez can move to 1st.
SJ44, did you miss my question or are you choosing to ignore me?
Getting Granderson was an absolutely huge move. It restored our traditional strength up the middle and meant we wouldn’t have to give a multi year deal for Matt Holliday. So, right now, we can get an older but still good LF on a 1 year deal, and we have all of our draftpicks!
I do know this, replacing Mariano won’t be easy. Closing in New York is a special honor and I’d rather have somebody from within be the heir to Mo.
Laura, I can safely say, you’re not Mrs. Wells.
mick
December 10th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
If he projects best in the bullpen they will trade him. The idea is to make the team better not fit guys in certain places because they are better suited for that role.
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I don’t understand. If he projects better in the bullpen, why not leave him there where he will be a valuable part of the team.
Will another championship with him in the pen convince you?
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Because if you scroll up I explained that Joba as even a number 4 starter is incredibly more valuable than Joba as an 8th inning guy. Joba pitched 6 innings this year in the playoffs. He is towards the bottom of the reasons why the Yanks won the WS. Starters like CC, AJ, and Pettitte were astronomically more important than Joba in the playoffs.
The best course of action is to create a ST competition between Hughes and Joba rather than guaranteeing both of them rotation spots. A guy like Sheets would enable us to do that.
The Yankees will have to find another closer at some point but they will never replace Mo.
He wouldn’t be a FA if the Yankees signed him to a long term deal prior to hitting free agency. Not out of the question if he is still here.
They did it with Cano, buying out arbitration and FA years.
The precedent has been set.
Hard to say what Joba’s problem was last year.
He definitely was out of shape ocming into the season. No question about that.
Shaking off catchers over 60% of the time endeared him with nobody on the team.
That said, he seemed to get his aggressiveness and stuff back in the post-season.
I think that’s why some in the organization are re-thinking the plan for him.
To me, Cashman said it best….both Hughes and Chamberlain are starters who can pitch out of the bullpen.
I think that’s the best way to go to ST and see what happens.
I can’t be a low level, or any level programmer since I am not very computer literate.
wouldn’t mind looking at a Sheets via short/incentive contract. However, please no Derek Lowe or other assorted veteran innings eaters. We already have several capable pitchers in the system capable of the same (Aceves, Gaudin, etc)
you broke my heart, Fredo
**********
Darn, I missed The Godfather discussion.
How in the world was Cazale not nominated for an Oscar for Part II?
The way Well’s contract is set up. He made $500,00 last year, and $1.5MM this year. Next year he gets $12.5MM and the following years he will receive over $20MM per season. Basically, no way will Vernon Well’s agree to opt out.
I don’t get that anyone familiar with Yankee brass, can’t see plain as day that Lackey is the target.
Ben Sheets will not be pitching for the Yankees next year. He will cost too much and by signing Ben Sheets for one freaking year the Yankees will guarantee that one of Joba or Hughes will NEVER be starting pitchers.
Starting pitchers are incredibly expensive. Relievers are not. Joba and Hughes will develop in the rotation next year backed up by someone like Deuscherer or Kelvim Escobar + McAllister, Nova, Aceves.
Turning either into a full time reliever will cost the Yankees big time money right now and in the future. It makes no sense.
I know this is an unpopular idea but it’s not written in stone that the loser of a potential Joba/Hughes competition goes to the pen. Why can’t Hughes pitch in AAA and be ready to jump in should one of the starters go down? With AJ and certainly Sheets, the potential for the Yankees to need an emergency starter is high.
If all 5 starters stay healthy (how often does that happen?) and the bullpen is struggling in 2010 like it did at the start of 2009, Hughes can join them as he approaches his innings limit. Regardless, his IP cap is lower than Joba’s and he’ll be in the bullpen for the playoffs.
Because if you scroll up I explained that Joba as even a number 4 starter is incredibly more valuable than Joba as an 8th inning guy. Joba pitched 6 innings this year in the playoffs. He is towards the bottom of the reasons why the Yanks won the WS. Starters like CC, AJ, and Pettitte were astronomically more important than Joba in the playoffs
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Do you think these 8th inning guys grow on trees? How did Hughes work out in the WS? As I said before, I don’t care as long as we win. And WE WON. I am a bottom line kind of guy.
“They can’t do buyouts. The players association would never allow it.”
SJ44, then what was it that LAD did with Jones? I thought they bought out the rest of his contract.
A debate between Halladay and Lackey is silly. The Yankees are not making a push for Halladay, they are simply waiting for Lackey to get a magic number.
If Joba is ticketed to the bullpen why would you not just trade him and then sign someone for the bullpen? The team would be much better off in that scenario
Joba was so slow to the plate between pitches last year as a starter that it was driving me insane. It was almost like you can hear the ruckus going on between his ears.. he seemed lost.
When I saw him pitch in the PS, I remembered what it is a love about him..
Laura,
I can think of at least 2 reasons why he wouldn’t accept:
1) He’s a proud, competitive guy who feels like he can and needs to turn things around out of respect for the fans and organization. A buyout would be him admitting defeat.
-more likely…
2) He’s owed a TON of money… his contract was for 7/126M… but it’s so ridiculously back-loaded that he was pretty much working for peanuts in the first two years of the deal (’08 and ’09). Including his signing bonus (paid over 3 years), Vernon Wells made 9 million in ’08 and 10 million in ’09. He’s owed 107 million over the final 5 years of the deal. He is definitely not a 21.4 million/ year player.
I have no idea how buyouts usually work, but he’d be utterly insane to leave more than 10-20 million on the table – which would still be a 87-97 million buyout. Add, say, 5 million for the Jays’ new CFer, and they’re still paying 20 million a year for CF.
“Laura, I can safely say, you’re not Mrs. Wells.”
And you didn’t even need that Martha poster to expose me.
And what will be so magical about this spring training that it will be obvious who is the better starter ? Chamberlain or Hughes ? For my money Chamberlain is the more finished product compared to Hughes. can Hughes get by as a starter with 2 and 1/2 finished pitches ? Hughes needs more work as a starter and the rotation is not the place to for him to learn pitches ro make him a totally effective starter. Hughes might profile better a Mo’s eventual replacement. He is unflappable on the mound.
Kelvim Escobar was a yankee killer, before the arm/shoulder injury. Wonder how effective he is?
Do you think these 8th inning guys grow on trees? How did Hughes work out in the WS? As I said before, I don’t care as long as we win. And WE WON. I am a bottom line kind of guy.
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Yes I do. 8th inning guys grow on trees. Pretty much every team in baseball shakes up their bullpen every single offseason. The Yankees have 2 eighth inning guys on their team alone RIGHT now in Marte and DRob.
And in the free agent market:
Gonzalez, Soriano (if he did not accept arb.), Billy Wagner, Saito, Valverde….
All those guys could fill the 8th inning just fine
“I actually am ‘Bret’.”
What happened to the other members of the Hart Foundation?
http://tinyurl.com/ycbfqr6
“When I saw him pitch in the PS, I remembered what it is a love about him..”
I certainly didn’t love him when he threw 2 GARBAGE sliders to Feliz, after he had him 0-2. He had dominated the first two batters on fastballs. Blew two heaters by Feliz, then completely wasted two sliders, overthrew a fastball (I believe that was the next pitch), then gave him a cupcake low 90s 3 and 2 fastball right down the middle. All in the absolutely critical game 4. That was CCs second start, Lee was going the next day… that was a must win game and he stopped using his brain for that batter.
I was a raving maniac after that HR. Thankfully we had Damon and Alex coming up in the 9th.
It is a bit premature to think Hughe has won the starting role over Joba.
So far each of them has had a chance as a starter and a releiver and Joba has performed better in both roles.
Both have shown great promise as a starter but each of their perfomances so far have also been disappointing at times.
Unless one of them is traded I think both will get the opportunity to win a starting job in spring training and if there is an injury both could end up in the starting rotation at some point.
They could even get creative and share some starts (1st 80-90 pitches to Joba the rest to Hughes or the reverse) if they are still undecided early in the season.
Well if the Yanks get Halladay without giving up Joba or Hughes, the one of them WILL be bumped from the rotation, regardless. Same if we get Sheets.
Owen Hart is dead
Jim Neidhart just had an appearance in TNA
His daughter is WWE
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
“Because if you scroll up I explained that Joba as even a number 4 starter is incredibly more valuable than Joba as an 8th inning guy. Joba pitched 6 innings this year in the playoffs. He is towards the bottom of the reasons why the Yanks won the WS. Starters like CC, AJ, and Pettitte were astronomically more important than Joba in the playoffs.”
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I agree I think Joba can become a better and more consistent starter than Burnett. And Burnett got 80 million from the yankees.
I think the yankees would look foolish to give up on Joba as a starter after they went through all that trouble to monitor his innings limit. I like to see what he can do as a normal starter (180-190ip) like he would be this upcoming year.
The yanks have plenty good young relievers Robertson, Melancon, Dunn etc etc.
“They have a weird vibe going on up there right now.”
i think cashman simply took the yankees to a level with the sabathia and teixeira signings using the financial resources the yankees have to a place the red sox in their present financial condition can not go.
i think henry has lost a huge amount of his net worth.the red sox have money compared to tampa or toronto , but not the yankees.
i think it may be as simple as that.
Soriano was traded to TB
Wagner & Saito signed with ATL
They’ll fill the role – just not with us
homage to Erica…
“Joba was so slow to the plate between pitches last year as a starter that it was driving me insane. It was almost like you can hear the ruckus going on between his ears.. he seemed lost.
When I saw him pitch in the PS, I remembered what it is a love about him..”
It seemed like a lot of Joba’s issues w/ pace were tied to fatigue. When he only pitched one inning at a time, that didn’t come into play much. However, even then he was nothing like he was when he first came up out of the bullpen. It just seems to me that having a less demanding task (1 IP vs. 6 IP) only served to mask his flaws–you could still see they were there, he just wasn’t out there long enough for them to be completely exposed.
Joba’s demeanor as a releiver gets a lot of attention, but I think that plays a minimal role in his success…He may have displayed the attitude of old, but he still didn’t pitch like his old self. All of which is to say, relieving is easier, so he was able to get by, but if Joba is on his game he take the challenge of starting and absolutely dominate. If he never gets back on his game physically/mentally, THEN the Yankees will be forced to hope he can rely on talent to get three outs at a time for a few years until he fades away…what a shame that would be.
SJ:
1. Cash did come out publicly last season and say emphactically that Joba was a starter and that he would not be put back in the pen. The media keeps up the Joba to the pen idea and that was his response. I can provide the article if anyone is interested.
2. You mention that the Yankees tried two “kids” in the rotation once and it was not pretty. Those two were Phil Hughes and the traded Ian Kennedy. Phil now has had the chance to prove himself and Kennedy proved he was not rotation material. Joba has a lot of major league pitching under his belt. Not the same.
MORE: Another poster mentioned that a lot of energy has been put into the development of Joba Chamberlain and it is a shame he isn’t given another opportunity. Joba filled in where necessary in 07 and 08, you would think he deserves more consideration for his work.
Another poster mentions that Joba only had three good games this year and that is not true. Go back and look at his stats, please.
Yes, I am a die-hard Joba fan and will remain so wherever he pitches.
It is good to see well thought out replies by posters on Joba’s value to the Yankee team. That type of debate which includes his strengths as a projected rotation pitcher is what I like to read. Too many times posters focus on the negatives of Joba’s personality rather than his pitching prowess, or lack of. Just saying that Phil goes to the rotation and Joba to the pen w/o justification is not a welll thought out post.
Another thought? What happens if Phil is in the rotation and fails. Does he go to the BP and Joba goes back to the rotation. Or vice-versa. I know it is a business but the powers that be are playing with the professional lives of two quality pitchers who on any other team would be in their rotation and succeeding.
This debate will only end if one is traded away. There will always be doubts by management and fans of who is better. And that should not be.